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I have at least half a dozen black and white printed blouses in my closet, and they’re so versatile, I wear one at least once a week.
My go-to easy outfit for a day when I don’t feel like planning is my black Eileen Fisher crepe pants, a black and white blouse, and a jewel-toned blazer. Easy to pull together, but still stylish. I think this one would also look great with a white blazer and black trousers for a more classic look.
The blouse is $39, marked down from $79.50, and available in sizes XXS–XXL. It also comes in tall sizes S–XL. Print Tie-Neck Shirt
Talbots has an option in plus and plus petite sizes (as well as misses and petite) that is also on sale for $39.
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Ellen
This is a great tie-neck shirt, and it is a bargan at $39! Great pick Elizabeth!
I was at my desk all day yesterday, but was listening to the impeachement debate in Congress. They say it is a big deal to be impeached twice in 1 term, and that is unfortunateley all Trump will be remembered for in his goverment legacy, and I agree.
Dad wants to know why the vaccine is so slow to roll out. He says he wants Grandma Leyeh and Grandma Trudy to get the vaccine NOW, but they are independent and are not in long term care facilities where they already have the vaccine. Dad and Mom are also both eligible, but he thinks they won’t get it until mabye June/July! That is ridiculus!
What about the rest of the hive? Has anyone been vacineated yet? The manageing partner is to get the vaccine in April, and he is old! FOOEY on the rollout? Whatever became of warp speed? It is really crawling now! Doubel FOOEY on this!
anonchicago
I made a career limiting move last night and am wondering how to recover.
I’ve been working long hours the last few months (consulting) and am often on calls late at night or recieve calls late. After working all weekend, late every night, then Tues night getting an 11pm call as I was going to bed, yesterday I was close to my breaking point. Around 8pm, my boss yelled at me about how the deliverable wasn’t what he was looking for and a lot of back and forth with contradicting requests. At one point, I broke down and said “I’m trying so hard, this project has me on the brink of suicide”. And…I am depressed. But as soon as the words were out of my mouth I regretted it and he said he had to go to HR and I need help. Which, I guess he handled it as he was supposed to.
What next? I’m going to be investigated, put on an HR watch list, word gets out with the partners that I’m too soft? How can I recover from this?
Panda Bear
I’m so sorry, that sounds awful. I think the most important thing is getting the medical/therapy help you need. Other thoughts – Can you take some time off? Is there anyone at your company, who knows its specific culture and context, that you trust and could ask for advice?
Anonymous
(My comment assumes you aren’t actually suicidal and merely used it as an expression, but that you are depressed.)
“Soft?” Appearing soft is what you’re worried about here? Any chance you’re writing from an Asian country? Because I can’t make sense of anyone worrying about their job after what you’ve described. Find a new job. One that doesn’t require you to work so hard. There are literally millions of them. Yes, downshift. It’s ok. Life can be an amazing thing when you’re not working 12 hours each day. My thoughts are with you.
Anon
I’m noticing a trend that when an OP describes toxic behavior that commenters ask if they are Asian/South Asian. While I understand there are cultural differences, please know that there are plenty of issues with Western culture as well. Americans aren’t exactly known for light workloads.
Anonymous
Seriously. OP’s username is anonchicago.
Another Chicagoan
This may come as a bit of a shock, but we have people of Asian/South Asian heritage in Chicago.
No Face
I think the confusion is that a commenter asked if OP was posting from an Asian country, and OP’s username indicates that she is in Chicago.
Anonymous
Yes. South Asian here and the implicit racism on this presumed- liberal board is astounding.
Aunt Jamesina
Oh, please. The desire to not appear “soft” is (sadly) not at all uncommon for many American workplaces. I remember when a colleague had a breakdown (not at work) and then went on leave that others were positively AWFUL in the way they reacted and gossiped about her. I knew then that if I appeared to be the least bit emotional or vulnerable that it would be detrimental to my career. Glad to have left that position!
Anony
That happened to me. I had the ultimate workplace breakdown in a meeting where I “snapped” and burst into tears. Not only was the gossip brutal, I got reprimanded and berated by my boss at the time. I ended laid off a few months later. It was an incredibly toxic workplace and I’m so thankful to not be there any longer.
Aunt Jamesina
Ugh, I’m sorry you went through that, but I’m glad you moved on!
Ses
First of all, your boss sounds toxic if he’s actually yelling at you over work product not being perfect.
In terms of recovery, that depends on whether you’re actually suicidal or not. If you are (even intermittently, or if you’re thinking of a way to just to make the work stress stop and that comes to mind), take advantage of any help and support your company can provide and also get outside help.
If you’re not, you can explain that you were being hyperbolic and didn’t mean it, apologize for using such a serious mental health issue to express your feelings. I suspect this isn’t the case and getting help is the better option for you.
Consider also – there’s a reason your boss was so quick with a response and knew exactly what to do right away – it’s not the first time someone has said this to him, at your company. That should comfort you about your career, and also worry you enough to find another job.
Anon
Is this at a management consulting firm? What tenure are you? I’m sort of guessing first ~2 years either post undergrad or business school – is that right?
Your firm likely has a leave of absence policy, depending on the severity of your depression right now, you should look into that. At my firm it’s 90 days fully paid. If you know that this job isn’t for you, going on transition may be possible, especially if you’ve been at the job for more than a year or two. On transition you typically continue getting your salary for a set period of time, during which time you are expected to be looking for jobs full time and will not be staffed. If you think the issue is this case and this manager, you should be getting in front of the staffing team now and making it clear that this is untenable. (Have you worked on other projects/with other managers? Have those been more manageable experiences? If yes and no respectively to these two questions, getting your staffing switched probably won’t help). Finally there may also be the option to roll to an internal role for either a set duration or permanently, which typically are much more standard job expectations + hours.
Your health is the most important thing. I was in a situation that sounds really similar a few years ago, and for me getting to a different project really resolved it. When I look at other peers, a lot of people have had a similar situation where they needed a “get out now” lever pulled for them, and it has not impacted their longer term success. Yes, there’s not a great relationship with that one partner/manager, but everyone is able to build up advocates elsewhere in the business.
Anonymous
Take leave. You need it because you are in crisis. Use your leave to first and foremost treat your mental health and secondly to find a less toxic job.
Anon
+1 million to this. Please take care of yourself, OP. Big hugs.
Rainbow Hair
Take some leave. Take FMLA leave, take something. Get a doctor to write you a note. Get a therapist — meeting online is fine. Consider meds if you need them, though you may find you don’t if it’s just this situation throwing you off. If you can’t handle making an appointment, can you outsource it to a trusted friend?
I don’t know how seriously you meant “brink of suicide” but the fact that you said it… that’s enough for me to know that you are not doing well, and you need to hit ‘pause’ on everything and take care of yourself.
Nothing is more important than taking care of yourself right now.
Nothing is more important than taking care of yourself right now.
Careers come and go, but nothing is more important than taking care of yourself right now.
I lost a friend to suicide about two weeks ago. I don’t want anyone to lose you <3
And I just don't want you to feel this low! Please, please, take care of yourself.
(Drop me an email at rainbowhairette at gmail if you want to talk — I'm far from a mental health expert, but I've spent plenty of time in the trenches of depression.)
Vicky Austin
I’m so sorry about your friend, RH.
Curious
I’m so sorry about your friend, rainbow hair.
anonnnn
I’m sorry you are experience this and going through a very hard time.
FWIW, when I told my boss that I had called the suicide hotline over the summer because I was at my breaking point, his reaction was to ensure that I took the time I needed and got the help I needed. I didn’t worry about how it was going to affect my career because (1) my boss’s and general support of our law department; (2) mental health IS health and if having a serious health issue was going to affect my future at this company, then I wanted nothing to do with it anyway; and (3) having a health issue does not mean you are weak. If your company/management views it that way, get a new job.
Take time off and get the health care you need. You have not ruined your career, I promise.
Anonymous
You haven’t clarified the most important thing. Are you depressed and feeling suicidal? If the words slipped out and don’t reflect reality, that is a very different situation.
LSC
Can I tell you something weird? I am actually really PROUD of you for speaking up to preserve yourself! Even if it was just a slip of the tongue, you clearly can’t continue this way, and this was your brain tricking your body to force a change. Instead of beating yourself up, try to give yourself a compassionate talk and think about next steps that will make YOU happy. Also, I am in HR. You’re not going to be put on a watch list. They will probably provide you information about your employee assistance program and offer leave. Then HR (and your boss) will be on to other things. It feels big to you, but not to people who deal with these issues a lot over the course of a career. Everything will be okay. Please take care of yourself!
anon
That was my reaction, too. I know it was a slip of the tongue, but GOOD ON YOU for plainly stating that what you are doing is not sustainable.
I can’t speak to this from the HR perspective at all, but I would take as much vacation or sick leave as you can manage right now. And start job searching.
anon a mouse
+1. Even in your description you say you were close to your breaking point — and the ideal time to recognize that and take action is before you reach it, not after.
OP, I hope you get help. These times are so challenging, and your mental health is so important.
anononono
Yes, the fact that you said this is a sign of your STRENGTH. You are unbelievable strong to have recognized this and said it, when you needed to. Continue to draw on your strengths and vulnerabilities to get the help that you need. I know that you are loved by so many and your health matters to them, and to us. Sending you peace and love.
Anon
Big hugs, if you want them, OP. The world is a better place with you IN it. Please get the help you need to shake this. I’ve been there and I bet a lot of other posters here have been, too. As for your job, start looking for a new one, not because you’re failing at this one – you’re NOT. You deserve a place where your work ethic and your give-a-damn isn’t exploited to the point that your health is in jeopardy.
Anon
Anonchicago, I feel for you and just know, you’ll be okay, one way or the other. I’ve had really severe burnout and mental health issues before and you WILL get through them. And the job thing will work out–either in this job or a another job.
Anon
Totally agree with a lot of comments here. I think management consulting (if that is what you’re in) is structured to crush people and take advantage of type A overachievers. I was in a very similar position to you and had a similar interaction. I got out, got my life back and the firm name has been a nice boost to my resume since. Don’t stick around just because they keep dangling carrots every 6 months.
Walnut
FWIW, I recently read an executive level document calling out the need to up resourcing after analyzing the impact workloads are having on the mental and physical health of our team members. This only gets written when we as individuals escalate our situations to our management and to remind those of us in management that it is critical for our employees to have a safe space to express it – even if that’s not with your direct manager. Over the last three or so months, anytime I have someone 1:1 on a call, I dedicate the first ten minutes or so to asking how people are, how their family/friends/pets/bubble are and doing so with a tone and encourages them to open up if they feel comfortable. The overwhelming response is people are not well.
anon
Same here, Walnut. I am worried about my team. Thankfully we’re in a bit of a lull, workload wise, but people are not OK. I am not OK.
Anony
Thank you for checking on your team! Signed, someone who wishes everyday that one of their many managers would check on them,
Anon
OP and anyone for whom this resonated — this summer one of my family members took a leave of absence from their job because they were severely depressed and having suicidal ideations. I truly believe it saved their life. Please take a break, focus on yourself. The job stuff will work itself out, whether that means this job or a different job – you are the most important thing.
Panda Bear
Am I wasting my money on gold plated earrings?
I’m in love with a pair that come in either solid gold ($$$$, out of my budget) or gold plated ($$, accessible and so tempting). I’m hoping that unlike a ring or necklace that’s always in contact with your skin/surfaces, plated earrings will stay looking decent. Any words of experience?
Veronica Mars
I’d buy what’s accessible and if it becomes a staple/classic, save up for the gold piece to replace it with. I had one piece like that, it was like $300 for some gold Cartier-inspired hoops and I just couldn’t justify it, couldn’t justify it. Eventually, after like 3 years, I caved and bought the hoops and I still love them. In terms of the plated earrings, the posts could wear down, but if you’re super sensitive you could have the posts removed and have solid gold ones soldered on, depending on the construction/metal.
Anon
I do this a lot! Get the cheaper version to make sure I like it before splurging on the nicer version
Anon
I have several pairs of gold-plated earrings and they look fine after years of wear.
Anon
Same!
anon
I specifically like gorjana for these types of pieces. And agree with the other commenters.
Panda Bear
thanks all for the advice!
Anon
You can buy the plated earrings and, depending on the design, swap out the wires for 14k or have 14k posts soldered in place of the plated ones. I’m allergic to everything but gold, so this is what I’ve done for some favourite, more costumey earrings.
Anon
come next week when he is no longer the sitting president, can Trump be tried in regular courts for various types of crimes? like i’m sure there are plenty of financial related crimes he could be charged with or tax evasion or something, or can you only try a president in congress?
Anon
This business of looking at a person and trying to find a crime is garbage. If there is a crime, you find a perpetrator; you don’t find a potential perp and then look for something to charge him with, no matter how much you hate him.
The unhinged desire to destroy Donald Trump is quite terrifying. He will be gone from office and most likely not run again in 2024. You won at the polls; take the W and get on with your life.
Anonymous
Happy Thursday!
To answer the question, yes, he can be tried in regular courts.
OP
thank you for answering! i actually don’t think that democrats or other courts should necessarily make it a top priority to try Trump for his various crimes once he is out of office, I was just curious and getting a bit confused from my googling
LaurenB
“Democrats” aren’t going to try Trump for his various crimes. The appropriate courts in the state of New York will do so. Why shouldn’t it be a priority? Are they supposed to ignore crimes?
Anon
LOL.
Anonymous
Vom. Not going to take the bait with you but just know that you come off as an idiot and not as some kind of reasoned sage.
Anonymous
+1
Anon
Translation: you are refusing to engage with the issue because you know it makes you look bad.
Anon
No, she’s not engaging because as we all saw last week, there is no reasoning with people who cannot accept reality. They just get violent and start attacking (kind of what you did here, que no?)
I wish you would figure out that this is not the place to spew pro-Trump nonsense. There are plenty of other places on the Internet where you can do that, please go find one.
anon
+1
anon
The unhinged desire to destroy democracy is what’s terrifying.
anon
…do you think that OP is personally looking at trump to find some crimes to charge him with and that that’s why she asked this question? And that you just had to set her straight on how the criminal justice system works? Or do you think she was just indicating that she is asking this question because it’s pretty common knowledge that he’s under investigation by various bodies that do have the expertise and authority to investigate and charge him?
Good grief. You know exactly what she’s saying, but don’t let your reading comprehension get in the way of a good reactionary whine-fest.
Anon
Look tr0ll, you know exactly what you’re doing. Others, please don’t feed this really sad individual.
Lilau
I feel like the people saying this are the exact same ones who downplayed his dangerous rhetoric and actions for the last five years. Do you not understand the danger of a sitting Potus directing a mob to violently overthrow the American government so that he can remain in power after losing an election?
If not, I can explain this in the terms you might care about: the murder of congress at the hands of trump supporters and the installation of trump as a dictator, the end of American democracy and life under a fascist white supremacist regime would be very bad for your stock portfolio.
Anon
Well put.
Anon
Amen.
Anon
Excellent
Anonymous
YES! Love this.
LaurenB
I think you’re a bit mistaken, Anon at 9:29 am. Trump had the unhinged desire to destroy the country by not participating in the basics of civil democracy — the peaceful transition of power — and by inciting and unleashing the Duck Dynasty extras to actively disrupt the proceedings. Trump also had the unhinged desire to destroy the country by not respecting the actual vote count, per his documented call to the GA Sec of State. He also had the unhinged desire to destroy the country by not listening to public health experts and not modeling proper mask-wearing and social distancing protocols. So don’t give me the “get on with your life” nonsense. He has done everything possible to burn the house down to make it difficult for Biden. Is that how a gentleman, or a leader, acts? Has any other presidential transition in recent memory happened like this? Yes, he’s gone, but he told a Big Lie and people like you and the Republican congressmen / senators you elected didn’t stand up for truth.
Anon
Try to imagine for one tiny second a mob of Black Lives Matter protesters storming the Capitol, beating a police officer to death, and then the president saying on live television “we love you, you’re very special”
What happened to blue lives matter with you people?
Lilau
+1
It’s almost as if “blue lives matter”was just a callous retort to the idea that black folks shouldn’t be murdered by the state with impunity.
Senior Attorney
Right?
anon
We are a government of laws and not of men. It is critical to the rule of law that people who violate it not escape prosecution due simply to being politically powerful. Losing at the polls is not a substitute for being held liable criminally or civilly for one’s actions. If there is sufficient basis for charges, they should be laid. If there is sufficient evidence to convict, he should face appropriate criminal sanctions for his actions.
As a citizen of Georgia, I want a full and public investigation into whether his calls to state officials pressuring them to “find the votes” violated our laws. I understand that it may be a legal gray area based on how our laws on election interference are worded, and we need a public explanation of why this does or does not qualify. If it does, then he has to be tried. The integrity of our system demands it.
I’m a libertarian, btw. This isn’t about the desire to destroy Trump for me. It’s about the basic principle that no one is above the law.
Anonymous
Related but is anyone else cackling about how Trump is blocking Giuliani’s calls and refusing to pay his legal fees? Business as usual with a con man!
No Face
Yep! The fascinating thing about Trump is that he consistently treats the people who help him like garbage, but people keep sacrificing their reputations and careers for him. So many of these people were relatively well-respected before the Trump Administration, and now they look like morons or evil or both.
Anon
Giuliani is just so dumb. How many people follow the sociopath blindly is unbelievable.
Anon
Right?? He is just unbelievably dumb.
Lilau
I didn’t know that!
I’m still reeling from the fact thar he sent a murderous mob after his “loyal” Vice President pence for not ending American democracy for him. Why does anyone think Trump WON’T turn on them? Even Michael Cohen, a true idiot without morals, eventually caught on when he was. sentenced to prison and tried to explain this slowly using very small words to the entire country.
I honestly wonder what on earth the disconnect is here.
anonshmanon
absolutely agree, Lilau. I don’t get what outcome all his supporters envision for themselves that makes all this worth it.
Anon
I’ve seen the same dynamic play out so many times with small business owners, pastors, and other community leaders. I really think it’s one of the reasons he was elected in the first place: it’s what people think leadership looks like!
LaurenB
I love this. I love that Rudy’s not being paid, and I love that boot-lickers Pence, McConnell, Graham, et al are being thrown under the bus. I have used the expression “when you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas” so many times recently, but I want a better / stronger expression of this concept. Anyone got a stronger version?
Anon
It’s almost as satisfying as watching white terrorists cry as they get dragged off airplanes.
Anonymous
Yes he can and even if he preemptively pardons himself and his children, that only applies to federal crimes and not state crimes.
LaurenB
Kindly, where have you been? It has been all over the news for months that the state of New York has been getting all its ducks in a row to go after Trump for multiple issues once he is out of office, and personally I can’t wait for the show to begin. IANAL so I can’t speak to who exactly prosecutes what and what is civil vs criminal, but there are inquiries into consulting fees paid to family members (Ivanka), inquiries into fraudulently inflating the value of assets in order to a) obtain loans and b) write off larger numbers in taxes (hence the $750 in taxes paid), and inquiry into the “hush money” paid to Stormy Daniels.
anon
Since Trump will likely pardon himself (and family members) before leaving office, the bigger question is whether Obama will be charged with his various types of crime in regular courts.
LaurenB
Marjorie Taylor Greene? Is that you? Why don’t you explain for the rest of us what “crimes” Obama committed. For bonus points, avoid using Newsmax or QAnon as sources.
pugsnbourbon
Kellyanne? Is that you?
Nesprin
Oh that’s darling. “Our guy isn’t a crook- your guy is a crook too! It’s totally normal for a president to support a white supremacist insurrection” Thanks for the laugh- i needed that this am.
Anon
HAHAHAHAHAHA name one
Anon
Real question: in ten years are you still going to be blaming Obama for everything solely because at your core, you couldn’t stand that a Black man was trying to tell you what to do? Don’t you feel it’s past time to address your deep-seated racism and prejudice?
Horse Crazy
Ssshhhh, you’re dividing the country! /s
anonshmanon
[The President] shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.
Article 2 of the constitution.
Headshot Dread
Okay for about the 4th time in my career, I have to have a professional headshot done tomorrow – and yes, following all covid precautions. I’ve read all the google advice, and know what to wear, but any words of wisdom to get a shot that does not make me look fakey, semi-constipated, and just totally awkward? It’s 24 hours away and I am already filled with dread.. .
curlsallday
Best advice I ever got was in high school from a cheerleader friend of mine- smile with your eyes. Even if your smile isn’t as big of a grin (which on me makes me look like the joker), this has helped me a ton. Also before my last headshot shoot, I listened to some comedy podcasts on the way over and cracked up ( think something ridiculous like my dad wrote a …). It helped me and good luck!
Cat
Excuse me, this is “Smizing” (TM Tyra), lol
I find the seated poses the photographer tries to push me into to be extra awkward. I do better standing and leaning against a column or wall.
curlsallday
DUDE! It never occurred to me that these were the same. Clearly I need more coffee lol.
anne-on
Be prepared to take a bunch of pictures, as to review them with the photographer, and then ask them to talk you through different poses. It IS awkward, you are not a model! Hopefully the photographer can give you good feedback on what works well/does not. As per the usual guidance – a bit more makeup than normal, bring powder and lipstick to touch up, smile with your eyes, and good luck!
Anon
Move your chin slightly forward. It prevents a double chin and tightens up the skin in the face.
Anon
Another anti-double chin trick is to leave a gap of space between your molars – so like close your mouth, but lower your bottom jaw a little so that your teeth aren’t touching. Courtesy of Paulina P from ANTM.
Anon
My first husband had no chin, and our wedding photographer told him to “turtle” – aka, pretend like he was a turtle sticking his head out – to make it look like he had more of a chin. Also works to get rid of double chins ;)
Friday
No advice, OP, but good luck and “My first husband had no chin” is my favorite thing anyone has said today.
Zaeobi
I find with the ‘chin’ advice, some people end up taking it too far, like they’re looking down at everyone.
So rather than leading with the chin, I’d say to bring your forehead forward. That way, your whole face intuitively comes forward (which looks more natural & even of an angle than just tilting your chin out), if that makes sense?
Senior Attorney
And also adjust your expectations — if you end up with one or two really good pics from the day, it will be a huge win so when they come back, concentrate on the good ones and forget about the less-than-great ones.
Anon
I got headshots done a couple of years ago. I felt like a complete idiot the whole time and HATED them when I first got them back. But I got used to them. What I did was ask friends which one was best and they all pretty much picked the same one. For that pic, the photographer had made me laugh a little bit, and the photo is when I was not fully laughing but just starting to. I’m a very smiley person ordinarily so my friends felt the picture looked most like me.
Anon
i posted here once before on behalf of DH and he asked me to consult the wise ladies on the internet again. he manages a very small team and i posted back in August asking for how DH can support an employee who found out his wife was having an emotional affair, two small children involved, etc. So basically since August, DH has been doing his own work and the work of the person below him. DH completely understands that such a serious family issue is not going to resolve itself overnight, but they have another approaching deadline, the person he manages kind of dropped the ball on something/said he is dealing with his personal stuff, and so DH has to pick up the slack. DH very much wants to treat people the way he would want to be treated, but at the same time he can’t keep doing two people’s work. There is no one else for DH to delegate this other employee’s work to because the team is very lean (this is not DH’s choice, there is a hiring freeze due to covid, they are hoping to expand the team in the second half of 2021). any tips?
Anonymous
Yes he needs to start managing! “John we need to talk about deliverable x. This was your responsibility and you didn’t take care of it, so I had to do it for you. What’s your plan to make sure that your work is getting done?”
And if he continues not doing the work, a formal plan.
Anon
I think if your husband has given the impression that he’s willing and able to pick up the slack for his employee because of the family circumstances, then he probably needs to make it clear that that’s not possible indefinitely and he needs the employee to get his head back in the game. Once he’s had that initial conversation then I think the language suggested by anon at 9.39am is a good script.
Cat
Agree. It has been 5-6 months (since you posted in August, not sure if the problem was ongoing at that point). Just… not working at all for half the year is not a sustainable solution.
anon
Yep, exactly. I’d expect your DH to be in the driver’s seat during the initial crisis point, but this has been going on for a long time. An employee can’t downshift forever, even if his personal life is still not great.
Anon
Gently, handling an imminent project for a short period of time for an employee who found out their spouse was cheating is very nice and a sign of a good manager. But this isn’t a death or sickness of a family member, if an employee needs someone else to do all their work to handle an emotional cheating situation, they really need a new job because that is a sad but very normal, and ongoing, familial issue that millions of people work through just fine. His employee needs to build his emotional fortitude not your husband to do his work.
Anon
Agreed! I haven’t been in that situation, but I have been taken advantage of by a coworker going through a divorce who couldn’t handle her workload. (Although frankly, she was lazy before the divorce.) Her divorce lasted two years. It’s untenable to ask a boss or coworker to do their job for them for longer than a month, IMO. Yes, that all sucks, but we all have tragedies (deaths in the family, etc.) and while we should have some grace to be a person, abandoning your job for half a year is not a solution for anyone.
Walnut
Keep in mind that if you encourage someone to find a new job and you have a hiring freeze, the problem will be worse before it is better. Is your husband having regular check ins? Is there a proper project plan in place working back from a final deadline for all the tasks in place? It seems like some mechanisms, solid management, and some empathy/cheerleading would help out.
Anon
We have an employee resource center we can point people to if they need help with various things in life- maybe HR has resource they can connect him with?
Anon
I’ve been on the other side, and found out my husband was having an affair. Totally unexpected. I’m in BigLaw, we have “unlimited” vacation time, and I decided not to take formal leave. But, I essentially ended up taking 4 weeks off, billing I think a total of 20 hours during that time. It fortunately was a relatively quiet period, and I have really great co-workers who covered for me.
I really did need that time to recover from the shock of it all. But, after those 4 weeks, I came back at generally full force (while still in weekly therapy and still crying myself to sleep many nights). There were a few times after that (ie the day ex-husband moved out of the house) when I needed them to cover for me again, but that was it. I was very careful not to drop any balls, so to speak.
All to say, I think your DH sounds like a very reasonable manager, and I agree with the posters above recommending that your DH talk to the guy. It’s one thing to be understanding of people’s personal issues, but another when those personal issues substantially interfere with work for 5+ months.
Anon
Can anyone provide a high-level overview of withdrawing funds from a non-retirement, index fund investment account? Say I have 100k and want to withdrawal 25k for a house improvement project. Since I am selling shares, I assume that the funds would go to the cash portion of the account and I would have to request a bank transfer or check to receive the funds X days later. What are the tax implications of this? We have the account on auto-pilot and it is just doing its thing. Thanks.
Anon
Yup, you sell it and the money is sent via your specification, usually to your bank. Any profit/gain can be taxed as income and it will show up on your tax form from Vanguard or wherever, so no need to track anything yourself.
Anon
You liquidate those shares, and next January, it’ll be on the tax form they send you. Presumably you already get a tax document on account of any dividends paid by the fund. How much you owe in taxes will depend on if you had a gain or loss and if you had a gain, whether it’s short or long term.
LawDawg
If this is a mutual fund that you bought directly, then you can look at the prospectus and there will be instructions on how to redeem (sell) shares. The proceeds will be sent to you. If the mutual fund is in a brokerage account, then you will sell the shares and the money will be “swept” to a money market fund. You need to give the broker directions to transfer the money to your bank account or for them to send a check. Either way, when you sell you will have a capital gain or loss. You will get a tax document next year that shows your gain or loss. If there is a gain, you will have to pay taxes on it. If it is a loss, you can use that to offset gains from other stock/fund sales. Mutual funds also distribute gains (usually annually), so you might have gains that are taxable from holdings other than this sale.
I tried to keep things high level, but reading through it I am afraid that I might have confused you even more.
Anon
OP here…Your comment makes sense to me :) We prepare our own itemized tax return, so I’ve entered the capital gains/losses before. For some reason, I was thinking that the received funds would count as income and be taxed at say a 24% tax bracket. No wonder we don’t move money around. I wish I could know in advance what the tax implications are. In other words, will the withdrawal cost us $200 out of pocket or $2k?
Anonymous
You should be able to model the capital gains for the potential sale when logged in to your account. This is a standard feature for brokerage/mutual fund platforms— but you might only have that functionality when logged on via desktop rather than through an app. You might not be able to model out the tax itself, but you could ball park by multiplying your cap gains by the applicable (estimated) tax rate.
Anon
Not an expert, but for my own purposes I researched it and I believe long term capital gains tax is 15% or 20% depending on your tax bracket.
Jules
OP, your concern that the money taken out of the account would be taxed as income probably is out of confusion with retirement funds such as 401(k)s or IRAs. Since (usually) the funds that go into those accounts is not taxed at the time of the contributions, the distributions are taxed. It sounds like the money you put int this mutual fund was income that already was taxed to you before you made the contributions, so you won’t be taxed again – except on any capital gains – when you take it out.
Ses
Also important – if you have held the shares less than a year, the taxes could be higher (they’ll count as income rather than capital gains rate which is often lower). So timing matters.
Anon
I’ve tried posting this on the Moms site and for some reason mod is really slow there? So posting here.
Did you and/or your partner undertake genetic carrier screening before TTC? Why or why not? Any advice about considering genetic risk?
My fertility clinic is really pushing carrier screening for me. My selected donor has screening results for 300 conditions and is a carrier for three genetic variants that are serious, but treatable, and not life limiting nor associated with profound mental nor physical disability. I was only able to get testing for 288 conditions, including two that donor carries (I am not a carrier of them) – one of the three the donor carries I could not arrange testing for in Canada (donor is from States and had access to different lab). Reproductive risk is 1/240 of me using donor without getting carrier testing for that last condition myself. The only option to test for this gene is in Finland for $850 USD. Not sure that the 1/240 risk is worth the cost, or the delay this would pose to my treatment (after an already long wait for care). And I feel unsure why my fertility doctor is pushing so hard. Many people use donors who don’t have expanded carrier screening and wouldn’t know about this condition, or TTC with a partner without having screening, or move ahead with greater reproductive risk than 1/240. I’m frustrated that I’m at the one yard line and now feeling like I need to doubt this, or that doctor is making me feel as though this is taking a risk when most people don’t even have this carrier information to begin with. Looking for perspective.
Oh, sadly changing donor isn’t much of an option because due to my CMV status and RH factor and COVID supply limitations, there really aren’t tons of alternatives.
Anon
I also wish to clarify right away – the condition in question that I can’t arrange screening for is recessive. So both donor and I would need to be carriers, then there is 1/4 chance child could be affected by condition. Taken altogether the reproductive risk of this is 1/240.
Anonymous
I have not been in this position yet, but I definitely plan to get all screening possible due to family history. I would much rather know and make an informed decision with all the facts and I would not hesitate to get an abortion. If I opposed abortion, I might feel differently.
Anon
Do you or close relatives have a genetic condition that indicates that you should have a higher level of concern? If not this seems excessive to me and I wouldn’t do it. Fwiw, my cousin has cystic fibrosis and the advice I received was that it wasn’t worth testing before TTC unless it was a closer relative like a sibling.
Anon
It’s OP. No, based on family history and ethnicity – as discussed with a genetic counsellor -I am not at increased risk to be a carrier.
I’m so frustrated with my doctor. I’ve had his nurses call me twice this week saying things like “oh so it says in a note that you may cancel the IVF cycle and choose a different donor.” Um, no. Never said that. Given other factors there basically are NO other donors to choose from right now, and I am comfortable with the 1/240 risk. When I explain that I get a response of “oh well doctor is really cautious”. So am I! That’s literally why I waited for a donor with expanded screening, and that’s why I did my best to get expanded screening myself. I’m so so frustrated that I’m two days away from starting injections and they’re calling me about this as if I’m taking some major risk and should call everything off.
nuqotw
I saw this after I posted my other comment: if you’re comfortable, go forth. The doctor may be worried about getting sued. I think it’s fine to say directly you want to proceed, you’re aware of the risks, and I would expect that the doctor would agree.
Anon
+1
Also, if you don’t mind, can you talk about what role your CMV status has to this process/your donor choice?
Anon
OP again. Thanks, I appreciate all the responses, and your examples below about the dice and the coin flip help to contextualize the 1/240 number. For me, I am aware of the risk and feel comfortable with the risk, but the tone of the communications from my doctor is making me second guess myself. I guess one might wonder, if I say I’m comfortable with the risk, why I’m posting here. And the reason is because the calls from the clinic at the last minute (about something I’ve discussed with my doctor beginning in October) are starting to get to me and make me distrust my instincts.
Anon
Regarding CMV status – I have never been infected with CMV, so am CMV negative. At my fertility clinic (and according to Health Canada guidelines more generally), CMV negative persons should only use donors who are also CMV negative. Even though the risk of getting CMV from a positive donor is small, both fertility doctors I’ve worked with insist on using negative donors for CMV negative patients. The thing is, less than 15 percent of all adults are CMV negative, so this greatly reduces the number of available donors for me. And CMV negative donors can be used by CMV positive patients, so it’s not like they are exclusively reserved for the 15 percent of CMV negative purchasers who can only select them.
Anon
Thank you! My daughter contracted cCMV from me, so I am interested in the topic. Canada does a great job with CMV compared to the US, and it’s very interesting to see how Canada treats it even in the early stages of pregnancy.
Good luck!
Anon
I feel woefully ignorant – I had no idea that CMV existed and no knowledge if I’ve been tested for it while pregnant. I learned something new today.
Cat
We did the screening because that’s the thing with recessive genes – you can have absolutely no family history of anything concerning but if you match, it pops up. We learned we each have a handful of conditions, some of which would mean the child would be unlikely to survive to toddlerhood, but none of them (thankfully) matched.
Whether you proceed with the extra expense of the one-off test is totally a personal choice. I would understand either decision!
Anon
The only person I know who got the testing done was my cousin’s wife – she’s Ashkenazi and so was screened to be a carrier of Taysachs.
anon.
Same. My Dh and I are both Ashkenazi Jews, I am a T-S carrier, and so both of us were screened. My OB is also Ashkenazi and she not only encouraged it but helped us figure out how to make it happen.
Anon
Are you an Ashkenazi Jew or from some other ethnic background that has a high rate of recessive genetic conditions? If not, I think this is an overreaction and I wouldn’t worry about it. Like you say, it’s far more information than most people have and sort of reeks of eugenics, to be honest.
Dr Anom, PhD
To be clear Ashkenazi Jews have a high rate of KNOWN mutations. We are not a group that has more mutations than your average person of European descent. We are well-studied, however.
nuqotw
There is not a good answer here. Have you asked your doctor about the push? If you have a strong feeling one way or the other, I would go with the feeling.
I can tell you what we did: when we got engaged, I screened for 8 common to our mutual ancestry recessive genetic disorders. It was easier for me to do the screening for health insurance reasons so I did it first. When I came back negative for all, spouse did not screen. For kid #1, we did not screen for the various trisomies (I was under 35) but for kid #2, we did (I was over 35). We thus rolled the dice on all sorts of things.
1/240 is rare but not “so rare you will never see it.” It’s slightly more likely than flipping a coin and getting 8 heads in a row. It’s about 6 times as likely as rolling double sixes twice in a row.
Anon
I was close to 40 when I had my first pregnancy. Because of that, I had whatever screening was recommended and was not a carrier for anything. So my husband never got tested. I’m Rh-; husband is Rh+. I am CMV positive per blood donation records, which is probably true, but I never looked into it. We are both white and from places without any big risk factors (not Amish, not Ashkenazi Jews, etc.) with no family histories of things of concern.
Anon
For me the factors that stand out are it sounds like you’d be a single mom, and that would personally make me more inclined to test. 1/240 doesn’t sound like low odds to me either so I get your doc’s concern. It’s also hard to say without knowing what condition you’re talking about – something serious even if it’s not life limiting can still be a lot to deal with. I’d think through how if your child had whatever it would impact your life and your ability to work so you could provide needed support. One of my closest friends is a single mom by donor and she went through so much to get there that I think you’re feeling some of the frustration of the process and that can get in the way of thinking clearly about things.
Anon
I’m a lesbian with a wife, not prospective single mom :). Thanks for sharing your considerations, very helpful and you’re right that the process can be intense and that creates a certain lens on things.
Anon
Oh goodness, so heteronormative of me, I’m sorry! I would probably amend to just consider how your partner (and you) would deal with a serious condition if it came to that. And best of luck, it’s such a hard and emotional process, sending you all the best.
Anon
You say that choosing a new donor is not an option. Let’s say that you did the test and are a carrier for that particular condition that the donor is also a carrier for. Would you go ahead with the IVF/IUI, or would you select a different donor?
If your plans would not change and you would be willing to carry and raise a child with this disease, then save yourself $850 and just do the IUI/IVF.
Aunt Jamesina
I did carrier screening. I’m currently going through my first round of IVF and it was strongly encouraged by my RE. My insurance paid for it, but I believe that OOP the cost was around $450. I would have gladly paid for it; that’s super cheap compared to most infertility tests and procedures! $850 is nothing to sneeze at, but I think I would have paid it. I realize that couples who conceive the, uh, “traditional” way don’t usually have this info, but having already had trouble conceiving, we wanted to have more info so that our approach and follow-up could be more targeted.
My test didn’t show I was a carrier for anything, and my RE’s general MO is that if your carrier screening comes up clear, then she doesn’t push for PGS testing for your first round of IVF (since the data on it is relatively mixed and it’s so expensive and always OOP). She is relatively conservative about pushing for PGS testing generally. If there are later issues with egg retrieval or being able to get pregnant from IVF in your first round, then she pushes more for it.
Aunt Jamesina
Ugh, I shouldn’t have responded before reading your whole post, I’m on my phone and the page kept jumping around… in your case, I would feel comfortable skipping the testing! I TOTALLY get the frustration of the constant delays. I had a month delay when there was a Menopur shortage in November, and now another wait since my first egg retrieval wasn’t great. It’s a whole lot of hurry up and wait and it just really sucks!
Anon
I did the Natera screening (saliva sample) which screens for 274 genetic conditions. Since I was negative for all, my partner didn’t do the screening. Sounds like you may have done something similar already. I’m over 40 so I will also do all the recommended tests, like NIPT (waiting for results), NT ultrasound and possibly amniocentesis, but I like to have a lot of information. No additional genetic screening of my genes or my partner’s has been discussed.
Anon
Ugh, you posted here because the moms mod was too slow?!?! Immediate thread collapse. So sick of the TTC talk here.
Aunt Jamesina
Great!
Anon
Yes, we all know how you feel about this topic, Aunt J.
Aunt Jamesina
So glad you found a solution that works for you!
Anon
I tried to post yesterday on the moms board and the post did not even appear at all. I think the mod rules/pace are quite different there. So yes, I tried here today after again my post didn’t appear on moms. You don’t really need to “police” this board, Kat and team can do that just fine.
Anon
You misread, the moderation queue is too slow. I hope you can make some peace with this topic as it seems so triggering for you.
LaurenB
Who cares?? I’m skimming through the TTC stuff to see if there is another thread below because I have nothing to contribute to a TTC discussion. So what? Why do you need to make a show of saying that you’re not reading it? Some people are reading and enjoying their conversation. This is not an airport and you needn’t announce your arrival or departure.
No Face
I wonder when people will realize that you can just collapse a thread without making a production about how you don’t like the topic. Even before the collapse option, I would just scroll past all kinds of topics.
Anonymous
but No Face what are your thoughts on what to wear hiking
No Face
I don’t hike, so I have no idea!
Anon
And I’m not happy with the fact that there’s a separate moms board – I’m child free by choice but I find the discussions of issues that parents are dealing with valuable as they make me more empathetic and a better manager, leader and supporter of women at work. I love when these topics come over here.
Anonymous
+1. Not a mom (yet, might never be) but I welcome these discussions.
Anonymous
+1
Anon
There are a lot of reasons why people might not want to see TTC talk in a place where they are looking for other topics, and I understand why it can be upsetting. But you’re being a jerk and there’s no excuse for that. Go vent on TFAB instead.
Aunt Jamesina
This thread is about IVF, which someone on TFAB would (theoretically) be interested in.
Anon
Bye!
Anonymous
Partner and I got tested but it wasn’t part of IVF.
For the 1/240 chance: if you found out you were a carrier, how would you proceed? Choose a different donor? If the other donor had a similar genetic risk, would you choose a 3rd?
If the answer is you’d move forward, then just move forward. If you’d choose a different donor, $850 is small bucks to pay in the long run of infertility. You have my permission to buy used baby gear and spend the savings on this test if it will offer you peace of mind.
Anon
We did the full workup. If we were going to spend the time, money and energy in IVF, surgery and everything else that we’ve had to do so far, we wanted to know what we were dealing with. That level of data is not for everyone, but it was for us. No family history influenced the decision.
Anonymous
DH and I are both Ashkenazi Jews, which have high rates of genetic conditions. We’re on the fence about having kids. We did the genetic screening about 2 years ago just to explore what our options would be if we do decide to TTC. Luckily we are in the clear. If we both carried the same genetic conditions, I think I would have just followed the genetic counseler’s recommendations.
Anonanonanon
I did IVF with donor sp*rm so I did the genetic testing myself and found I was a carrier for something. I hear you on the 1/240 chance, but i don’t know the knowledge that if I picked a donor with that gene produced a 1/4 chance my kid would have a condition producing blindness and/or deafness was enough that I sought out donors who has tested for that specific gene. So I think it depends on the condition for me. I think it’s odd your clinic requires negative CMV status—mine didn’t, although the fact you see that and RH as part of donor profiles suggests some clinics care. Good luck, there are no easy answers here.
Anonanonanon
Sorry I see now CMV is a big deal in Canada. I did IvF in the US so that might be the difference.
Seventh Sister
Perhaps this makes me odd, but as a 31yo pregnant person I happily agreed to every screening test that was offered. Having friends and family members with rare and non-rare special needs, I wanted to be prepared. Even if it was something minor (like a club foot), I felt like I could start trying to use my contacts/network to figure out things like hospitals and physicians and other stuff. Also, plenty of rare-ish genetic disorders can crop up in the general population (e.g., Tay-Sachs, CF, fumarase deficiency, etc.)
While I’m politically pro-choice, I have no idea what I’d do in a situation where testing indicated a particular condition.
Anon
There are two new hires in my group. I think they are both 26. This 5+ years younger than our last new person and 5ish years older than my oldest nieces and nephews. I feel like I’d love to know what the references are to this age cohort and am drawing blanks. They don’t remember 9/11. But maybe the recession of 2008-2010ish looms large for them (or maybe not)? I am not sure what movies / music / etc. references even make sense to them.
And the pandemic is making it even harder to connect. I feel bad for them and also like I don’t speak their language at all.
Anon
I wouldn’t expect all 26 year olds to have the same frames of reference, so this seems like not worth pursuing. Wouldn’t it be easier to try connecting 1:1 and get to know them as individuals?
Anon
So don’t worry about making pop culture references to a 26 year old?
Anon
Yep – get to know them as individuals. I had two new hires this time last year. 23 year old recent college grads. Their life experience and maturity to that point couldn’t be more different. One is extremely mature for his age and has already moved on to a promotion from the entry-level position. The other is still figuring things out, in work and in life. He is also a solid employee, but needs a lot of “how to work in an office/remotely with other adults” type advice.
Anonymous
Don’t indulge in preemptive anxiety about not being able to understand their references. Talk to them like the normal people they are. Ask about their interests.
Generations
My daughter is a few months shy of 26 and has vivid memories of 9/11. The recession did not make a dent in her memory, but it did impact the savings we had for her college fund. Her boyfriend is 27, and the recession looms large for him, his father lost his job and his family lost their house as a result.
Anonymous
I find this so interesting. I’m 37 and was a senior in high school for 9/11. I babysat for kids your daughters age (5-7) and they had no concept of what was happening at the time. Even my youngest sibling who is 30 now and was 10 when the towers fell has a verrrry different perspective on that time. He literally only remembers high security in airports and that it was the reason my dad quit his job (my dad had tons of clients in the south tower and was there weekly but not that day).
FWIW, we lived in westchester and many people from my town, including a parent of m close friend, died that day.
Cat
This age group basically grew up alongside Harry Potter (like my 29yo sib went to the bookstore at midnight for the next release). But otherwise, I think you need to just… chat with them? Ask them what they’ve been enjoying on Netflix?
Anonymous
Def get to know them as individuals but to this early 30s employee, Harry Potter was and is life!
Anon
Im 26 and I definitely remember 9/11 – I was 7 when it happened. The recession is stressful because of the knowledge that it could happen again and because of some longer term impacts, but I never felt direct impacts (parents are both in pretty recession proof jobs).
Anonymous
I’m 27 so similar ballpark. I vividly remember watching the twin towers fall on TV in the library of my elementary school, I knew of the recession but my family were largely unaffected so it wasn’t on my radar. I watch Netflix so references to network shows can get lost on me. I would also be careful of falling into millennial tropes as discussion topics, I own my own home without financial help so the jokes of poor and irresponsible millennials really grind my gears.
Anon
Is 27 a millennial? I am fuzzy on where that starts and stops. Current college students are something else than millennials (or not)? I do know where boomers start and stop (but at work, it seems that if you are 40, you get OK, Boomer a lot; GET OFF MY LAWN).
Anon
I think the cut off is around 24/25. I’m 26 and I’m a millennial but my brother is 23 and he’s Gen Z
anon
There’s a lot of debate around when generations start and stop, but millennials are supposedly those born between 1981 and 1996. A 26 year old and a 40 year old would both be millennials.
Boomers are generally those born between 1946 and 1964. The youngest boomer would be 56, and the oldest 1974.
Generation X is considered people born between 1965 and 1980. They tend to get lumped in with boomers or millennials, or they just fly under the radar.
Those in college now are considered Generation Z.
AnonATL
my husband and I are 8 years apart and both millenials technically.
We have very different life experiences and memories though which makes for funny conversation
He’ll say something like oh I saw this movie in the theaters in whatever year and I’ll say yeah I was 2..
Millenials are a big chunk with vastly different life experiences. Not that other generations aren’t as well.
Anon
I’m an older Gen X and I feel like neither an Xer nor a Boomer. In fact, when the media was making a big deal about young Gen Xers, I was busy working and paying a mortgage and I couldn’t relate at all. I’m more on the Madonna end of things than Alanis Morisette. These generational divides are arbitrary, really.
Aunt Jamesina
Madonna is solidly a Boomer. Born in 58 (as was my mom, which is why I remember).
Anon
Re: Madonna I just meant that when I was a big fan as a teen, it was pre-Alanis. I was a young adult for the Alanis era and music doesn’t imprint on you the same way once you’re out of your teens.
Cat
Millennials are turning 40 this year. Boomers are at or near retirement.
Anon
For us, we used to be a big going-to-lunch group (together, in smaller groups, all brown-bag, all eat together at X time, ordering in for late work nights). That was how you go to know people (that and the giant Michigan helmet one guy had, along with other office decor items). It just doesn’t happen now. No one really wants a zoom happy hour or trivia (it’s more: get the work done, binge on Netflix, repeat, hope pandemic ends).
I do know that most of our new hires don’t know who Jeff Spicoli is (is he on the other floor? I haven’t met him yet) but all of the parents with kids still at home feel like school is out FOREVER, so they get that reference.
No Problem
I’m well into my 30s and have never heard of Jeff Spicoli.
Anon
And I’m in my 20s and I love Fast Times at Ridgemont High
No Face
The prevalence of the internet means that people in the same generation do not necessarily have shared interests anymore. Anyone can find anything. My 20-something relative’s favorite Christmas present was a Bee Gees vinyl album!
Vicky Austin
+1.
Anon
OMG love.
Lyssa
If it helps any, I started my first office job at age 22, and was at least 10 years younger than the rest of my team. This was 2002, so obviously a different cultural time (so obviously!). I did have a hard time connecting to a lot of my team because we were in different life stages in a lot of ways (for example, they were talking about raising their own kids, and my frame of reference was the still-recent memories of my parents raising my siblings and me). But I don’t recall cultural or recent historical references being an issue. (Everyone just wanted to talk about that exciting new singing show, American Idol.) And that’s probably even more true now, given how widely split our cultural lenses are across the board now that there are just so many more options.
Anonymous
No idea how old you are, but for reference I’m 33 and our youngest hires are 23-26. (And my sister is 26). One thing that really stands out from the younger millennials vs older millennials is how much the younger ones talk about internet memes and Netflix shows. They’re pretty much grown up with the internet, don’t really remember what a landline and dialup are even though they have vague memories of parents or older siblings using things like a landline or even *gasp* AIM. I don’t even try to follow up with them on pop culture anymore, it’s practically another language.
That being said, just treat them as adults and sometimes accept that they are still learning the ropes and don’t always have the experience to handle complex situations on their own yet. Don’t have to take over, but when they start getting into anxiety spirals, help them trace out the possible outcomes of a complex work situation and explain why choices A and/or B are preferable over choice C due to client or agency culture or whatever.
alina
26 years old remember 9/11 . . . maybe not well but they do remember it. I don’t think a 26 and 31 year old are really that far apart, they should have similar references in enough things.
Anon
Interesting. I am older and what I remember from the day of 9/11 was very graphic live news feeds, especially people hanging out of buildings and jumping. I work in finance now and the first time I worked with people at Cantor Fitzgerald I practically burst into tears just seeing the e-mail address. It just made it so real again.
I would have thought parents would not have let their kids see that (so like they wouldn’t have experienced the 9/11 event itself), but I guess they’d generally be aware, especially if they grew up around NYC or DC or Shanksville or were in a military family or area.
alina
I remember being told about it in school, parents coming home early from work because they work in tall buildings and people were afraid they could also be attacked, general feeling of fear and uncertainty, not being allowed to watch TV even though I knew something was going on and then later when they put cartoons on, my dad not letting me address envelopes during the anthrax scare (I had a 2nd grade pen pal I think?). So I don’t remember the same details an adult would, but I definitely remember it. It’s like vividly one of my strongest early memories of a particular event (rather than just “we went to the beach” or something)
Anon
Ugh — now it is all coming back. DC suburb, so 9/11, then anthrax, then DC sniper, so I can remember gas stations hanging large tarps so no one could see if anyone was pumping gas at a particular pump at any given time.
Anon
Sounds like we’re the same age. I have very similar memories to you – from PA but not Shanksville but obviously all 3 locations are not that far away so the fear was real.
I don’t think I watched any 9/11 related news (though, my parents have always watched the morning news in their bedroom while getting ready for work – so not having the evening news or not having the news on in the living room was not out of the ordinary). However, I was very aware of the fear (and was afraid myself), was concerned that places I went may be attacked (we were afraid to go out to recess that week, because we thought there might be a bomb on the playground), and was acutely aware that the country was preparing for war (I remember having a book about a girl growing up in colonial America and in the book she talks about preparations for war, and I remember feeling just like her)
I do, however, remember watching the evening news with my dad (not sure why) later on when the first troops were being deployed to Afghanistan and that image has stayed with me forever.
Z
I am 26 and from New York. I remember 9/11 vividly, my father worked near the Twin Towers at the time. I also remember the recession as both my parents lost their jobs, it was really tough for a long time.
Senior Attorney
I can’t imagine making water cooler talk with a relative stranger about 9/11: “So… that was an awful day, eh?”
Horse Crazy
Lol seriously. Who cares if they do or don’t remember 9/11? When on earth would you be casually chatting about it?
Anon
I’m in public safety so for the younger set of coworkers, 9/11 either directly or indirectly led to us being in this field. Many of my older coworkers responded on 9/11 (even though we’re neither in NY or the DMV). In addition to it coming up in conversation there’s a few casual reminders – a plaque commemorating someone’s service, a challenge coin on someone’s desk, things like that.
A coworker of mine did search and rescue at ground zero. Another coworker dropped out of college on 9/12 and enlisted in the army. Another coworker was an Arlington EMT while in college in DC and was the first in medic to the Pentagon.
anon a mouse
I think it’s sweet of you to want to connect with them, but seeking out shared cultural references isn’t the way to do it. Do you go out of your way to learn about things colleagues 15-20 years older than you are into? Just treat them like people, ask questions to elicit answers and look for common ground there. TV, movies, music, past travel experiences, hobbies, sports, cooking/takeout favorites, etc all are easy ways to get to know people a little better.
anonymous
Agreed! I would suggest that rather than trying to learn what cultural references they might know, you’d do better to get to know them as people and find cross-generational commonalities like anon a mouse listed. Because honestly, if you have to study it, it’s not a shared cultural reference and therefore won’t produce the bonding effect that is the whole reason we like shared cultural references.
In addition, OP and everyone, please be mindful of expecting your young employees to recognize/care about your cultural references! I work with a lot of men who are my dad’s age or a little younger and these people loooooooove to talk about golf or bands or movies or whatever that I was 25 years too late for. It is really awkward to sit there and be like “no don’t know that band, no haven’t gone to that restaurant that was off this street in 1991 when I was 5, nope, don’t know who is playing at the Master’s….” So often I’ve found myself wanting to respond, “oh, my dad blah blah blah….” and all that hammers home is that they should be talking to my dad and that I have nothing to contribute. I don’t think they actually expect me to get it or care and they’re just trying to make conversations, but a little thoughtfulness would go a long way.
Anon
Yes… constant cultural references don’t just exclude by age, but also class and culture, so they can obstruct an inclusive work environment in a lot of different ways.
Monte
Exactly. Someone mentioned Jeff Spicoli above. I now know who that is, but as a black woman in her 40s, I can tell you I have never sat down to watch Fast Times…
Horse Crazy
Right, like if you met a 90 year old, would your water cooler chat be, “so how crazy was WWII?” No. Just get to know them as humans, not as a number.
Ribena
I’m 26 and don’t remember 9/11 or 7/7 (I grew up v near London and it transpires that my dad was on the train behind one of the ones that was attacked on 7/7 so I suspect I have blocked it out rather than having been unaware of it).
My team has daily ‘water cooler’ chats on Teams which are roughly 50/50 chat/ work stuff. At the moment the big difference isn’t about age but about who’s homeschooling.
Don’t assume anything about your 26 year old colleague though – among my peers, some are married with kids, some are single, some are living with long term partners, some live with parents, some are in houseshares. Cultural references vary wildly too depending on how ‘online’ we are and how much TV/ what TV we watch.
Is it Friday yet?
This whole thread is making me think of the Steve Buscemi “How do you do, fellow kids?” meme. :)
Anon
This made me laugh out loud.
pugsnbourbon
I thought the same thing :)
Horse Crazy
Ha! Same.
Ribena
Oh also regarding the recession – the closest U.K. domestic equivalent event to Lehman Brothers collapsing was the bank run on Northern Rock. I was 13, and mentioned it in class, and the girl sat next to me asked “what’s a northern rock?” – which is to say that even within this age group the awareness of the recession will depend hugely on the individual – whether it affected their family and how switched-on they were.
Anonymous
If you try to be cool, they will call you a “cringey” old person. Take an interest in them as individual human beings.
Anonymous
And just be a person yourself. There is no magic script for this or anything else in life.
Anon
I will give you my experience as a manager. These are generalities and individuals are different. Millenials in my group expected a lot of feedback on their performance and expected promotions and new opportunities sooner than what had been standard for us. They all wanted to be the best, which was actually great because they worked hard. The downside of this for me was the wanting to move on to new tasks after doing them once or maybe twice, because we don’t hire new people every quarter. We expect entry level people to do the entry level tasks for a couple of years, which apparently seems like forever to a millennial. The typical millennial focus was on being your best self, performing at your personal top level, and getting the recognition that goes with that – and working life was an adjustment because there is far less recognition along the way vs what you would get in school or from your parents.
They were also very aware that there was a lot of cultural backlash against millenials.
The late millenials/early Zs were more focused on how the work they are doing fits into the big picture, particularly wanting it to be something that helps the world. This is not always possible in the business world, so there’s some disillusionment to deal with. There was less focus on individual achievement, though every generation wants that to some degree, and more on meeting team goals.
With both generations I found many expected to move jobs a lot, so a gig mentality, which is completely understandable. These are both generations who saw their parents laid off and had no expectation that a corporation would be loyal to them forever so why should they be that way in return.
Anon
By the way, I loved them all. I love being a manager to young people just starting their careers. We have all moved on to different things now but I live for the occasional emails or linked in messages from them telling me how they’re doing. If you’re a youngish person reading this, please take the time to drop a line to your former managers (or at least the ones you thought really showed an interest in you!) now and then.
It’s so fun for me hearing that the kid I had to tell not to wear pants with holes in them to work is now married with a baby on the way, or that the young woman who always seemed to be sort of timid is now absolutely crushing it in her career.
anon
I’m 26 and remember 9/11 with saddening detail. I also was aware of the 2008 recession and how it affected my family, though not impacted by it in the sense that I graduated into a bad job market. The same goes for all my peers. I’m not sure why you think 26 yos don’t remember 9/11 or the recession, but we (generally) do. We just weren’t starting our careers then.
Anon
I’m thinking about getting the Nexplanon birth control arm implant (switching from the daily birth control pill). For anyone who has or had it – do you recommend?
I haven’t yet talked with my doctor about it but wanted to get some anecdata on your experiences with it. Does it fully eliminate your period? Did you have spotting?
Honey
I’ve had he Nexplanon since September. I’m still getting my period, although they don’t come as regularly. It is my lighter and typically lasts about 10 days. I have heard anecdotally that periods disappear completely for many users around the six month mark, so here’s hoping! I do feel like I was really anxious the first month or so after implantation, but I’m sure the election/COVID didn’t help. Hope this information is helpful.
CPA Layd
It depends on your body chemistry. Have you ever done the depo sho t? If you do well on the sho t you will probably have a similar experience on the implant because the hormones are similar. I loved the sho t, but it was a hassle having to go to the doctor every three months.
I had the implant three times, twice before I had a kid, then once after I had a kid. The first two times were amazing, basically no period for YEARS. I loved it. I think pregnancy changed my body chemistry, because the one I had afterwards was a nightmare. I basically had a period for seven months straight then I had it removed because I couldn’t deal with it anymore.
emeralds
I tried an IUD to get off the pill and it really didn’t work for me, so I got a Nexplanon. I’m now on my second one.
I never lost my period entirely; I did have irregular spotting for maybe 3-4 months when I first got it. I think I must have had a change in body chemistry between my first one and the one I have now, because my PMS + periods have been getting progressively worse, to the point where I’m thinking about going back on the pill when implant #2 expires in October to see if that fixes anything. (If we don’t decide to TTC. Which is its own whole thing lollllllllllll)
FWIW, I had no issues with insertion the first time around, but getting #1 out and #2 put in was a real b*tch.
Mal
I’ve had my implant for over a year now – love it so far! I still get my period, just more irregularly, and typically much lighter. Haven’t noticed any side effects. Bear in mind that this is my first time using hormonal BC – never took the pill. I love that I don’t have to worry about taking a pill, and that it’s so effective – even more effective than an IUD. My OBGyn said that she’s seen failures with IUD, but never with Nexplanon. My own research found that this remains true with the general population if inserted correctly (and you don’t garden unprotected for a week or so after insertion).
Botox
I saw a post on a thread yesterday that made me think of this. I am working from home until this summer. I planned to get Botox then, for the first time. Any benefit to getting it done sooner? I was thinking not because I don’t really see anyone besides my husband and kids plus randomly people in the carpool line etc. Obviously no social functions going on. If I got it now, the results would wear off by summer so I would have to pay for another round so it didn’t seem worth it.
Anon
The sooner you start the better lifetime results you get. I started in my mid-30s, people thought I was nuts but a decade later I look a lot younger than my actual age. The younger you are, the less frequently you need it – I was about once a year until recently. The good part is Botox done right doesn’t stop all lines so you age naturally but slower. Other than that I don’t think there’s a timing reason.
Anon
Haha. I have gotten it before and am doing the same thing. I understand what the other poster is saying, but I don’t think a few months Botox free is going to matter that much.
Also consider Dysport- you don’t have to wait for the results like Botox!
Anon
The onset of Dysport is 3 days, so slightly faster than Botox but not immediate.
Anon
You’re right. I’ve just found it to be much faster and softer looking so I don’t see any reason to wait the extra time for Botox.
Anonymous
question I”ve been meaning to ask – if you start, are you committing to a lifetime? What happens when you stop? Back to where you would have been without intervention; worse off?
Anon
I don’t think you’re worse off. I think the payoff builds over time. If you get it for 5 years and then stop, I think you will be better off than never having done it at all.
If you get it once or twice and never do it again, then you probably won’t see much difference, if any, in the long term. It would probably be like you never got it.
Anon
And it wears off slowly so it’s not like one day your face is frozen and the next you are like “crap, I better get Botox ASAP- my face has collapsed into a sea of wrinkles!”
You can certainly stop without people noticing.
Anon
I did it for years and then stopped for a variety of reasons. I still think I look better than I otherwise would have. My 11’s didn’t have the chance to set in as deeply as they would have sans Botox.
Friday
I think that was my post! I was introduced by a friend who does it: we’re both 35. She didn’t push me, just casually joked about her frozen forehead one night when we were talking and she wasn’t being that emotive. TBH this board is what made me take the plunge now instead of in 5 years. I don’t wear much makeup: mostly out of laziness. I just started using face sunscreen at 34. I feel like I have quite a bit of ground to make up. I found a reputable dermatologist, not some side of the highway spa (BIL uses them, and best of luck to him). The dermatologist told me I could achieve the same results with practice and prescription retinol, but I used rx retinol throughout high school and it’s just really hard on my skin and I don’t enjoy having to religiously stay out of the sun and moisturize constantly. Also I’m lazy and wanted a quick fix. Obviously, YMMV, but I didn’t want to wait until things are back to “normal” to visit an office. Seems like we’re getting closer now though. Everyone in my particular derm’s office is wearing a mask, they take my temperature before I enter the room. I actually got my second round yesterday and am still really pleased with the results. I get Dysport because it’s cheaper. It works well for me. I say go for it!
Sunshine71
I got it done knowing I was going to WFH for quite a while, just in case I didn’t like the results. Turns out I love the results! My concerns were horizontal lines on the outsides of my forehead, on both sides. It was amazingly quick and painless. I got 6 units to start (2 each in 3 places) and then got one extra on my left side because the wrinkle there is a little deeper. My eyebrows move normally. It took a little over a week for the results to kick in, which is typical.
Anonymous
This is what I did as well. I wasn’t sure how I would like it. I ended up not liking at all so this was the best decision for me.
Anon
One benefit would be that you could adjust it the next time. For example, my first time, I didn’t like the way it made my eyebrows move. I told the doctor, and she was able to adjust it the next time for a more natural look. It’s sometimes a learning process of which muscles you don’t mind moving and which ones you do. Of course, some people prefer the completely frozen look and that fixes that problem, but I don’t like mine to be that aggressive.
Kitten
I’d get it ASAP, especially if you are starting to develop lines that remain visible even when your face is relaxed. As an aside, I don’t like the way botox looks around my eyes when I smile in pictures, but I love the results and it makes my crows feet disappear for a few months, so I’m on some weird schedule where I get the crows feet botox during times like now where I don’t have any big events. On the other hand, I like my 11s to be completely frozen 24/7. If you start now, you can figure out your preferences before having to go out in public :)
Anon
Yesterday’s discussion about what it means to be middle class in the US was really fascinating. It seems like many people think they are middle class but aren’t – on both ends of the spectrum.
As a foreigner, one thing that struck me is how many normal middle class (or even working class!) expectations are considered luxuries in the US. It is absolutely not normal to be middle class and struggle with the affordabilty of daycare, of a safe and decent education forn your kids, healthcare… it may be common (in the US specifically) but it’s not normal.
Just wanted to leave this here in case people are normalizing this in their heads as normal struggles that can’t be changed (as a society, by taking a different approach to the way these things are provided and paid for). I really believe you guys can change that, one day.
Anonymous
I was thinking about that thread again too. One thing I was wondering about because I find it fascinating is what are the old money tells in other countries? I can recognize it easily in the United States, but how does it look in the United Kingdom or other European countries or Asia or anywhere else where we have readers? How do old money people act with their money?
Anonymous
My family is old money in Canada and the tells are similar to north Eastern US, things like old diesel cars, 100% wool sweaters often with patched elbows, original art work on the walls, well built homes typically impeccably maintained Victorians. The goal is understated quality and to avoid conspicuous consumption. Anything with a logo, plastic, vinyl etc is a no go. Old money won’t buy the flashy sports car or siding clad mcmansion.
Anonymous
Also education is a given but that’s pretty cheap in Canada even at our best schools. Though old money often goes to U of T, McGill, and Queens they also attend more niche schools like St FX
Anonymous
Agree with this but the experience is different. Think family ski week at Whistler or Banff over Christmas break. Spring break down south. Summers in Europe or US either travelling or doing prestige unpaid internships. Parents have main house in city plus cottage/chalet and often a condo in Florida/Arizona and/or Mt Tremblant/Whistler if skiers.
Anon.
I’m from Germany, and old money in Germany means (to me):
– inherited wealth, especially from family businesses or occupations in trade, law or medicine
– families owning several properties in high-end neighborhoods (think, old villas in a larger city)
– expensive “lifestyle” hobbies, for example owning horses, sail boats, going on extended ski trips in expensive Swiss resorts every year, owning multiple sportscars for fun, golfing (even though it has become more accessible now)
– sometimes, sending kids to private schools or boarding schools (there are “elite” schools catering to the wealthy)
We do not have the same issues with healthcare debt and student loans, but inherited wealth definitely gives children very different starting conditions in life. There is a big difference between kids who can’t afford school excursions and those who are used to have mom and dad pay for a highschool exchange semester abroad.
Anon.
Also, old wealth is sometimes connected to carrying a noble title. Some of those date back to the middle ages and are hereditary titles permitted as part of the surname (e.g., “von” and “zu”) If I were to meet someone carrying “von” in their name, I would definitely assume some wealth in their family history – even though I personally know examples of coworkers who carry those and are definitely not “stiff upper lip” people.
Anonymous
That’s so interesting. I knew about the “von” titles, but it’s cool hearing about it from someone who lives there. I was wandering around Salzburg once and thought I might be in an “old villa” neighborhood like you described, but wasn’t really sure as an American!
Emma
+1 on titles (I’m from France). A certain type of names, being part of certain select groups (we had “rallyes” which were basically the equivalent of cotillion, one girl in my high school had a formal wear, 500+ guest list at a local castle with various famous people in attendance). One thing about old money in France is they usually have old furniture (“this armchair was handed down by my ancestor who fought in the crusades” kind of thing). It’s considered somewhat tacky to have new things unless you go for a super contemporary look – I was surprised by the amount of “new old looking things” in the US and by how much people renovate their homes.
Seafinch
This made me chuckle. I am a Canadian married to the namesake son of an extremely well known Prussian Uradel family. We did two years living in Blankenese in Hamburg for my husband to attend the German Staff College and it was quite the experience. Houses never went for sale in our neighbourhood, only inherited, everyone wore Barbours and Dubarry’s, drove ancient Landovers and when people would see my signet ring they would obviously try to count the points in the crown. There was virtually a secret handshake between the old Prussian families. Our dentist (old Prussian) told me I had done so well naming our third child who was born there and my husband confused the hell out of his classmates as this odd Canadian German with the title. The one other old Prussian in the class had his number from day one and knew exactly who he was immediately.
Anonymous
Seafinch, that’s so interesting. Where did you even meet your husband? Do you speak German?
Seafinch
This is sort funny and romantic. The condensed version: We met on a rugby pitch watching a tournament while he was doing training for the Canadian Army. His grandmother brought his dad here on her last diplomatic posting (she was one the first wave of women who were elected to the Bundestag and that was her retirement reward) and they stayed so my husband was born here (though his mom is German too). Every man in their family has the same name back to the year 1100. His Dad is very well known in provincial, little old Canada for a few big deal career things but he was a federal court judge who had just made a land mark decision (and was a former Chairman of the competition organization who oversaw a decision I wrote a major paper on) when we met. He told me his name and I repeated it in proper German (I went to uni in Germany for two years and speak fluent German) and said, you mean like the federal court judge? His eyes got as wide as saucers, he said, “You speak German!?!”and the rest is history! Going to Germany was a great experience because his dad (born in an IDP camp in April of ’45!) Was the first man in the history of the family to not attend the German Staff College and then he went!
Anonymous
Thanks for responding. It’s so nice to bond with the family right from the start!
anon
I dated someone who was from an old money Austrian family – he went to a prestigious private high school, had spent lots of time in the UK to polish his English starting at an early age, participated in balls, and owned a small hunting lodge in the countryside. (Not fancy at all – actually kind of uncomfortable – but very old.)
Anonymous
“Uncomfortable but very old” is super old money to me. I’m thinking of Boston families who have vacationed at the same rustic camp in Maine for generations where there might not even be indoor plumbing.
Anonymous
I think those things should all be normal middle-class expectations, and that because they are a struggle here the U.S. middle class is actually much smaller than people want to believe it is. But when I said that yesterday I got jumped all over and accused of being a spoiled rich person because I thought everyone should have access to health care and education.
Anon
Again, this all started from someone with HHI of $250K worried she could not live a “normal middle class life” (her words). She’s choosing a VHCOL area and funding private college. I don’t think a $70K/yr college should be a right as long as the decent state university in that state still costs around $25K.
anonshmanon
I think one sticking point for many with the original post (and maybe your perceived agreement with that) was that the OP felt like they just had to save an incredible (six-figure?) sum for private college and saw no alternative to that goal.
Access to higher education is cheaper in all other industrialized nations, many just charge a nominal fee.
Anonymous
There isn’t much alternative in the United States now. Even a ton of mediocre state schools are charging exorbitant in-state tuition now (as was discussed yesterday) – and that’s to say nothing of the flagship campuses. I understand feeling anxiety about that.
Anon
UMass doesn’t have the hghest rankings but it has great reciprocal arrangements with the other 5 colleges, including Smith, Amherst, & Mt Holyoke. (A lot of kids in surburban NJ are actually choosing to pay out of state rates for UMass Amherst). If the OP doesn’t like the million dollar house with graffiti and wishes to spend more, she can choose the state school. Or she can buy the safe but unattractive fixer upper. I know it’s annoying to make $250K and make these choices, but no one is being deprived of basic human needs here.
anon
I disagree on UMass Amherst. Depending on the program, particularly anything in the business school, the ratings are fantastic. It’s one of the best in the country. Their sport management program is consistently in the top rankings. The school hasn’t gotten increasingly better over the years. Many people (particularly in state) still hold old outdated thoughts about it.
Anon
I didn’t weigh in before, but people got way too hung up on OPs income and “class”. The thing is income is regionally dependent, for example, the Bay Area is expensive and salaries are higher to compensate so you can’t necessarily up and move somewhere and expect to replace your income. College is also expensive no matter how you look at it (even state schools with lower tuition have impacted majors and longer time to graduate so the total cost can equal a private education). There are also a ton of studies that show the value of a college degree and how it impacts lifetime earning. It is hardly unreasonable for OP to be concerned with helping her child obtain a college degree and that doesn’t make her some rich, entitled person.
Anon
It doesn’t take 3 times as long to graduate from a state school to make the difference between $25K and $75K meaningless. Three of my own kids graduated from state schools in 4 years, including two with difficult STEM majors. I know not all state schools are the same, but the OP is looking at MA, which has a decent (if not Harvard/Yale/Princeton level) state school.
Anonymous
Time to graduation is a huge problem with some state universities. I attended UCLA in the 1990s, and I only got out in four years because I came in with a year’s worth of AP credits and didn’t choose a high-demand STEM major. Many people I knew, especially in STEM fields, took five years to graduate just because it was impossible to get the required courses, especially the lower-division “weeder” classes and core courses.
Anon
Re UCLA person, that has been my experience, too. It used to be the slacker kids who had the best 5 or 6 years of their life in college. Increasingly, it seems that despite the enormous tuition parents are expected to pay, the school cannot get kids in majors requiring sequential classes and prerequisites graduated in 4 years (and makes no effort to find a work-around, like “take this online over the summer to stay on track”).
I had expected to see it just with STEM but when I am now seeing it with teaching, I get stabby. If a teacher has to go even an extra semester, they can lose out on jobs when hiring is mainly done for fall hires.
Anon
STEM professor here- time to graduation is real problem at a lot of state schools. At both of the state universities I’ve taught at, it’s incredibly common for students to struggle to get into classes and have to delay graduation because of this. At one of them, almost nobody graduates in 4 years. That said, 5 years here is still much, much cheaper than a private school (assuming you pay full price- if your family income is low you really should consider private schools, as the financial aid could make them much more affordable, though this varies significantly of course). I’m so torn about this question of public vs. private, as I honestly think we do a pretty terrible job of teaching our undergraduates here and I definitely got a much better education at an Ivy. Professors at research universities are pretty much forced not to care about teaching your kids, just about their own research, and it creates some pretty screwed up incentives. The cost difference just seems unjustifiable to me now, though…
Anonymous
Where is state school $25K? Here it’s nearly $40K, $2K of which is a fee to support intercollegiate athletics (ugh).
Anon
I haven’t extensively looked into it but University of Virginia, Maryland, Penn State, New York, Delaware, Rutgers, etc are all well below $25k, some are even well below that for out of state students.
Anonymous
@ Anons at 12:43 PM at 1:02PM – I went to University of Maryland from 2006-2010 and my out of state tuition was about 25k/year back then. My cousin went to UDel as an out of state student at the same time and I think her tuition was either the same or a little lower than mine. It looks like for both schools current out of state tuition is 35k/year.
Anon
My kids go to state school but my close friend’s daughter goes to private and she also can’t get her classes. She’s studying nursing. Her dad, my friend, wanted to make the case with the school that since they’re paying full tuition, his daughter should get first crack at the classes but I talked him off that elitist ledge. Anyway, it’s not an only state schools problem.
Anonymous
In Norway there are no fees to attend universities (all state funded) colleges or higher education, unless you specifically choose a private, commercially run college.
Students get grants as well as affordable student loans from the state for up to 8.5 (iirc) years of higher ed. The same rules for everybody, very reasonable terms. Loans can be made into grants if you move to less populates regions. For studies abroad, many graduate level studies will qualify for grants to cover school fees.
Anonymous
…cont. norway
Even so, your family background and your parents’ education level will STILL decide (on a statistical level) whether you choose eduction, and if so what kind. It’s still difficult to break out of class structures. It also shows in life expectancy, health etc.
Anon
I am guessing that those rules are for Norweigians. Not for people who send their kids to there for college (the way an American might go to McGill. I have a feeling that McGill would be very expensive for international students).
Anonymous
No, attending the university is free for international students as well. There is no tuition or school fees. (Unless you count a 50 dollar admin fee per term.)
You will however not get state grants and loans (which are for living expenses, not tuition) as a non-citizen. There are exceptions (people with strong ties to Norway, spouses etc.) to the grant/loans rule, but generally a regular American student would not get state support for living expenses.
The free tuition principle is well established, but under pressure from more right wing parties. It is very well established, though, and is partly meant to ensure that students from poorer countries will have access to education in Norway. (Which will still be difficult because of the high living expenses).
Currently students are a vulnerable group under Covid, because many have lost their part-time incomes, typically in locked-down services like hospitality. They qualify for social security, but not unemployement if they receive grants and loans.
Emma
McGill is actually a lot cheaper than most American schools. I went to McGill and there were several Americans in attendance. They were all thrilled with the quality vs price ratio, even when paying international tuition (I think it was like $9k CDN a year).
Anon
Why does everyone commenting here assume their kids would be accepted into the very selective, often exclusionary programs offered in Europe and Canada? Are there realistic options available for lower-performing students? My understanding is that McGill (at least) is very competitive and hard to get into.
Anonymous
Re getting into McGill, it is because we are less fungible there than at home.
Example: we live in the largest city in our state and our city’s schools graduate enough qualified kids to fill the entering class in Flagship State U many times over. Most kids won’t get it but are statistically the same as the kids who do. They would be good candidates for other competitive schools where 50 other kids in their IB program won’t also be applying.
Emma
Right, McGill is hard to get into, but there are several other options in Canada, the same way that not everyone gets into HYS? As far as a I know the US does not have a higher percentage of higher education attendance than other countries.
Anonymous
Canada doesn’t really have ‘bad’ universities like the US does all our acadmic institutions can hold their own. There aren’t diploma mills like Arizona. Schools range from world class to good and that’s it.
Anon
In response, I believe 1) McGill is more competitive than most US state schools, and 2) you kind of proved my point around the scale of European and Canadian programs. It’s not like it would be easy to just ramp up the European and Canadian models and to provide quality free college education for any more than a tiny fraction of US students who are attending college now, even though they have to pay.
Anon
The social and economic diversity in the US is different than in Canada and Europe, though, making it more challenging to provide college options for all students. Don’t get me wrong! Quality education should be affordable! But we can’t just say “hey scale up the Canadian and European models, the US sucks, etc”
Anonymous
Diploma mills aren’t a good thing though! If kids aren’t smart enough for University they should go to college or trade school. Having the option to simply purchase a degree just cheapens real eduction. I don’t know why Americans think every kid needs the opportunity for a bachelor’s degree.
Anon
“Just go to trade school” is pretty elitist and exclusionary when we know a bachelor’s degree gives a better likelihood of avoiding poverty. That’s why the conversation here “but higher education should be free” is distressing – people want it to be cheap/free from themselves so they don’t have to live in an expensive fixer upper in surburban Boston, but someone else who doesn’t have those resources might just have to be a plumber.
anon
Anon at 2:04 is that correlation or causation though? College has always been somewhat elitist. Before millennials were told everyone had to go to college, only rich kids and very talented kids went to college (at least in the sense of a traditional 4 year program after high school). Both sets of kids would likely have been successful even without college due to networks/privilege for the rich kid and talent for the talented kids.
Anonymous
It’s not just millennials who were told everyone has to go to college. I am Gen X and heard the same thing. My impression is that it started with the boomers, many of whose dads went to college on the GI Bill.
Anon
Just FYI I did have to save six figures for my kids to attend in-state college. I started when they were born with 529s and I treated it like a car payment.
Lyssa
I didn’t see that part of the thread, but I’d question how we’re defining “struggle” here – do things like day care and educational expenses make a substantial dent in your budget? Sure. But do they mean that you’re actually *struggling* in the sense that you’re not sure you’ll be able to afford necessities because of them? I don’t really think that’s the case for most people on this board (I’m sure it is for some, but not most, particularly those with two incomes).
Anonymous
Growing up in parts of east Asia, it wasn’t uncommon for middle class families to have a foreign, usually from southeast Asia, nanny or domestic helper (aka housecleaner/maid/cook but domestic helper is the PC term). That appears to be a upper middle class or upper socioeconomic class luxury in the US.
Anon
I think people were arguing around an unspoken point. Some were stuck on what is technically middle class (i.e. median income of US households) and some were stuck on what a theoretically middle class lifestyle should be. I wholeheartedly agree that, IMHO, what is technically middle class income can’t actually buy what many consider a middle class life, especially in or near lots of urban centers because cost of living has greatly outpaced wages. So many people argued “well middle class expects too much” and that may be true in some respect. But that does not change that people that make average and median wages often can’t have a full “middle class life” of home ownership/stable housing, access to affordable healthy food, afford childcare, access to decent education, and physical safety without going into incredible debt or living so far away from work they have no life beyond eat, work, drive, sleep.
Anonymous
+1. A lot of people don’t realize that in the Bay Area, a family making low six figures can qualify for housing assistance grants. That sure doesn’t feel “upper class” to those people.
Aunt Jamesina
I’m a little bit tired of people living in Europe and Canada telling us how bad we have it. We KNOW. We know it isn’t normal and that our systems are bloated and expensive. I’ve never met an American who was unaware that our college and healthcare costs are astronomical compared to the rest of the world. We just don’t agree on what should be done about it, and the private sector and powers that be have a whole lotta control and say over these systems.
anonshmanon
I actually have met people (with PhDs and at a workplace with 50% international colleagues) who wholeheartedly believe that the US education system is the best in every way imaginable.
Aunt Jamesina
Did they mean in terms of the quality of education, or did they also defend the cost? Because we do have many of the world’s top ranked universities. I guess I’m just in disbelief that anyone would think that the cost of our higher ed system is at all reasonable!
Anonymous
American exceptionalism is a hell of a drug, I’ve seen Americans truly believe their education from random state U is amazing quality ,better than say ETH Zurich or the university of Toronto
Aunt Jamesina
Well obviously that’s total nonsense. We have plenty of mediocre and terrible universities, too. I wasn’t at all trying to say that ours are all great!
Anon
STEM prof here again. Those university rankings? Almost all of them are based on research. Nothing to do with education at all! That’s the dirty secret behind American universities- almost nobody at the “top” universities cares about teaching at all, it’s research that makes drives everything.
Aunt Jamesina
Very true!
Nesprin
Moreover, its research $$ and reputation as measured by calling the chair of dept X and asking them what they think about dept Y. It’s nonsensical.
Anon
And not a few of the researchers were educated elsewhere anyway. You can get an excellent public education in the US, but you can also get straight As without really getting all that good an education.
Anonymous
It’s not really even a secret. That is why many parents don’t want their kids going to State U undergrad.
Aunt Jamesina
State universities run the gamut in quality, though.
Anonymous
You are missing the point. Top-quality schools still won’t provide a good undergrad experience if the focus is research and grad programs. I am the UCLA poster above, who attended a postbac program at a private college between UCLA and grad school. UCLA is top-ranked, but there is no way I would ever want my own child to go there for a bachelor’s degree. Entry-level courses had 300 – 500 students. I took many upper-division courses with 60 students and maybe one paper plus a final exam, probably graded by a reading assistant and not the professor. Nobody on that campus gave a d@mn about individual undergrads. At the private college with small classes and no grad programs, professors were hired to teach instead of to do research and took a genuine interest in the students and their success.
Aunt Jamesina
But your experience isn’t universal to public universities either. I went to a Big 10 school, and while I had the giant lecture halls for intro courses, most of my upper level courses were 20 or fewer students. I had one class my senior year with only five other students! I think it really depends on your school and your area of study.
anon
Fellow UCLA alum here and I had a completely different experience. I graduated on time in four years, loved my time there and feel I had a wonderful education. I went on to graduate top of my class at a T14 law school (and was able to find multiple professors to write me letters of recommendation) There was less hand holding at UCLA than at my private law school but there were plenty of resources if you sought them out in my experience.
Anon
God, me too. I know this is not what OP meant but the “I really believe in you guys, just work harder for it!” is so condescending and ignorant. There’s a couple hundred years of political and sociological history that explain why we are where we are today. Positive thoughts aren’t going to change that.
Dear+Summer
I think most of those things are available to the middle-class. OP was just speaking about the luxury versions. She wasn’t talking about a “decent” education. She was speaking about being able to afford tuition for private college out of pocket. Decent education would be community college and a State U afterward(if desired). The middle class has access to that. The middle class has access to public primary education, just not necessarily the BEST schools in the wealthiest suburbs. Most of the middle class has access to daycare…headstart, small home daycares, church daycares, etc. They do not have access to Montessori schools and nannies.
This was the issue. OP thinks that barely being able to afford the LUXURY version of the basics, and not being to afford all of her wants = being in the middle class. That isn’t true. Her earnings are above middle class.
anonymous
The record scratch for me was how OP explained that she was concerned because they “had to” pay for private school, like it was just a given. In reality, parents paying for 4 years of private college is incredibly generous and really not that common. I mean, if OP wants to do that for her children then great, but it *is* a choice and it’s out of touch to pretend that private school tuition is an inescapable cost that those in the middle class deal with and not a choice– and a luxury at that.
My parents were actually middle class and could not afford a fancy house and fancy stuff and private school. So they made choices. We got a perfectly okay house in a good part of town and decent stuff and good public schools. They moved to a part of the state that had an excellent public school system instead of staying in their preferred location. The fact that my state had such a good public school system was also part of the reason they moved their originally. We lived in a modest but perfectly good house that never looked really nice. They never upgraded the furniture or bought superfluous decorative items. (My father would probably explode if he knew I spent $500 on linen sheets and a duvet cover when I had my “perfectly good” comforter and sheets from graduate school in the closet.) We did not go on vacations except to visit family. There were constant budgeting concerns and my parents were never really able to give us much money for school, but they were able to give us a few grand per year for living expenses. Very few people can have everything – lovely, renovated, large house in a good area with a good commute in a city they want to live in, fully funded 401K, vacations, new “stuff”, socking away 250,000-500,000 for school….the absence any one of these things or not getting “the best” version of any of these things does not make one not middle class.
Anon
Perfect response, thank you
Dear+Summer
Spot on!
Anon
I completely agree with your point that it shouldn’t be a luxury to be able to afford healthcare, daycare, and college. But the other thing I see happening in these discussions about who’s middle class is this idea that you should be able to afford to live in a nice house in a VHCOL area and have nice cars and take nice vacations and have nice clothes and send your kids to private colleges and save tons for retirement and eat at nice restaurants and there should be no sense of any of it being hard and that just seems completely unrealistic. I don’t think that’s ever been the case. I think the basics should be easier for everyone, but I don’t think middle class means you should get to just have everything at a crazy standard. If you live in a VHCOL area, you probably have to make some sacrifices on some of those other things, like not living in a giant house or crazy vacations every year or private college- you can have anything, but you can’t have everything. I’ve lived in CA and the SEUS, so I completely get how much living somewhere expensive skews your perspective on things. There is really a huge difference in how far money goes when there are literally no houses for less than million dollars, so you either have a really high salary, you’re okay living in an apartment or condo and/or renting forever, or you give up on some of those other things. A “normal middle class life” isn’t really possible when housing costs that much.
Anon
I hear you on giant house or nice vacations and restaurants. But one thing that bothers me about framing things as “luxuries” is that often they’re things that would benefit everyone and that would ESPECIALLY benefit the people least able to afford them. When people in general have access to better education; more nutritious, sustainable food; and reasonably nice housing, everyone benefits. Disabled people especially have a greater need for high quality prepared foods, comfortable housing, and the kind of individualized education that’s currently rare to find in the public education system. I wish we could just lift the standard for everyone somewhat.
Anon
Anon at 11:08 here. I think we actually agree. I would argue that everyone would be better off if the standard for the basics were higher- everyone had reasonable access to a small, safe, comfortable apartment and decent food, education, and childcare. The obvious way to achieve that is through higher taxes, which means that higher income people would have somewhat less money to spend on “luxuries” and might have to make some choices about things like vacations and giant houses, though you could argue that it might actually bring housing prices down some as people have less money available to spend on competing to live in the “best” neighborhoods. I recognize that I’m basically making the argument for Europe…
Anon
Even many poor Americans vote against higher taxes that they themselves would not have to pay.
Anon
It seems like we’re all kind of missing the OP (today’s) point — that we’re assuming things are a fixed reality that are actually societal choices that we have made and that we could (if we could get our democratic act together) theoretically change.
Anon
I am today’s OP and this is what I meant (Anon at 11.12). Forgive me all if I am overstepping. Maybe you don’t feel a need or desire to change this. But may be there are some who do, and are lulled by the hamster wheel into thinking this state of affairs is static and a given – it isn’t. Some western democracies have pulled off even bigger changes in the past century.
(I am referring not to yesterday’s OP’s take on middle class, but to the many examples throughout the thread yeterday of people talking about how expensive education and health insurance and daycare are to the point they feel “squeezed” by the non-luxury versions of those things.)
Anon
(That was a general “you”, not specifically anon above).
Anon
You’re just being so drastically over-simplifying and it’s really making me roll my eyes. Do you know anything about why things are the way they are in the US? It’s not as easy as try harder. There have been a lot of incredible, hard working people all over the country dedicated to these issues for decades and you come in here and say “well just try hard, k?” and that is frustrating.
anonnnn
+1
Anon
European higher ed sounds amazing, but I wonder if it offers as many opportunities for majors and career prep as we have here. Just because a program is available doesn’t mean you qualify. In the US, there’s a college for everyone, even if it’s a lower tier school. There are athletic options that don’t exist in other countries. A system where there is more opportunity for everyone (which I am in favor of) will necessarily limit the options, choices, and scope available, and very likely make higher education much more competitive to get into – leaving more people behind? How am I misunderstanding that? Does everyone in Europe get into the program of their dreams? I would really love a head to head comparison.
Nesprin
I can speak to the Italian system at least.
High schools tend to specialize- so there’s a college prep high school, a trade prep high school etc, so at 14 you are either on a college prep course or not. Typically after a college prep high school, you attend the local college (i.e. if you live in Bologna, you typically attend U Bologna), which tend to be exceptional (U Bologna) to very good at essentially a negligible (<1k) cost. One thing to remember is that there's many many more seats in each program than in the US- incoming class for the ivies tends to be a few hundred to a few thousand, vs tens to hundreds of thousands, so getting in is much less competitive and many more students can be educated. Getting a specialist undergraduate education (i.e. going to the best program for X) is less important than getting as many potential X'es trained to do X. For example, medical training is a 6yr undergraduate program- Italy does not have a shortage of MDs.
Postgraduate education might be the only place where moving away from home for a specialist education makes sense- PhD students typically move around or go abroad (where we do have the edge on training the world's best Xes- the UC system alone produces 10% of the research output of the world). The US does better with second chances- there's not an easy equivalent to the GED/community college program.
Anonymous
Less people go because the education system includes high schools with vocational training so you can learn to be an electrician/plumber/florist/vet tech/architectural design tech etc by the time you graduate high school. The university prep stream at high schools in Europe is more rigorous so you will generally qualify to enter 2nd year uni at a North American university. Less competition for seats at research universities as you don’t have people trying to get a bach. because they think that is their only path to a career. More vocational universities that provide bachelor degrees in more practical subjects like accounting which helps take pressure off admissions at other universities. Quality is more consistent across universities so less concern about getting into ‘the best’ or you won’t get a good education – although that still exists to some degree. Finally, teaching language at the university is a limiting factor in how many admissions to which programs.
amberwitch
The Danish system is fairly close to the Norwegian above (Except the living stipend you are eligible for is not a loan, and at the higher education level it is available for 5 (getting a masters) + 1 (a “fjumreår” aka screw-around year) years). Higher education covers any officially recognized education beyond high school.
Your acceptance is merit based, and dependent on your high school grade. The most difficult programs to get accepted into are midwife and anthropologist (at least that has been the case for long stretches of the last 30 years). Getting into our best ranked STEM university, on the most competitive programs require slightly above average grades. This university is regularly ranked in the top 5 technical university in Europe (with the caveats that these rankings are less than ideal as someone else mentioned above).
We finance whole departments dedicated to research into eskimo languages. They have 10 students a year! (not really, I am exagerating, but you know). The only program that I know of that you have to travel elsewhere to attend is as bandagist (someone who individual creates medical support like shoe inserts), where people study at a university in Sweden.
The government ambition is for 80% (something like that) to get an education. Not necessarily higher education, but at least attending trade school. I don’t think that the fact that education is free – and that you are essentially paid to study – means that there is less choice. We are a small country and that means less choice (people from Iceland, the Farao Islands and Greenland has to travel to DK/Sweden/Nowway to study), but that is separate from the free education thing.
Anon
This is very different from the US where you don’t have to decide your future career in high school or even earlier. Late bloomers can succeed in the US where they don’t have the same options in Europe (this has been documented in academic papers). You can go to college, pick a major, even change a major based on getting decent enough grades in a regular high school program. You can change careers later in life by paying to go back to school. Do Americans want to be pigeonholed as college or non-college material at the age of 16? Stuck in an accounting career because they don’t know what they want to do as a teenager, so others could have breathtaking academic opportunities?
Anon
To the person who said they were concerned that there weren’t enough arrests from the riots and felt like we weren’t hearing a lot about the non-“famous” rioters being charged:
My small town’s weekly independent newspaper yesterday had an article about two people who had been at the riots. One refused to speak to the paper; the other said he was just milling around inside the Capitol and didn’t do anything. He said they were having a friendly, relaxed conversation with some cops inside the Capitol, when the cops arrested them both and booked and then released them from (it sounded like metro DC) jail. The paper then had a call-out at the top of the article with an update saying that right before printing, they had both been arrested by an FBI counterterrorism task force and were in the local federal prison.
If you didn’t read our tiny newspaper in our town of 10,000 people, you wouldn’t have heard about these arrests. I’m hopeful this means there are more such under-the-radar arrests going on all across the country.
Flats Only
This is a great point. I think, too, that the arrests are coming along at whatever pace “due process” can produce them. I am actually impressed by how many have been looked up and arrested so far. I think many hundreds, if not thousands, more will face legal consequences for their actions last week by the time it’s all worked through.
anon
Yeah, I think there’s going to be a lot of this “book them on small charges that are easy to immediately ‘prove’ in order to get them into the system” (I’m not a lawyer, I don’t know the technical terms for this stuff), that will ultimately be followed up with much more serious charges once additional evidence is gathered.
Anette
It’s been heartening to see people arrested in like Arkansas and Alaska and so many other states. Just because someone didn’t get arrested in DC doesn’t mean the FBI isn’t still on them. I’ve seen what you said echoed a lot in press conferences, it seems like they’re either waiting until they have a strong case or arresting on more minor charges while they build up a stronger case.
LaurenB
Eh, I don’t really want to hear about them. Let those smelly flannel-shirted gun-totin’ flag-wavin’ yee-haws go quietly into the hands of the Feds and never come out again. I couldn’t possibly care less about their names or their stories. I listened to some video of domestic terrorist Ashli Babbit ranting on about something and thought — whoa, I don’t need to waste my time learning about her.
wow
Yes, but it is probably good for their friends/family/colleagues to hear about them. And honestly, I want to hear about them too.
From what I have read, there are a lot of rumblings/unclear plans/disorder among the radical right as they try to organize whatever will happen in the next week to disrupt again. It is good for them to hear about every arrest, as it may make some of them stop and reconsider before “joining”.
Curious
Agree 100%.
Senior Attorney
I love that this happened. I hope it is being repeated all over the country!
Dressy Tunic Tops for Work
Favorite dressy tunic tops without chest pockets for work?
Anon
J.Jill. All the tunics.
Anonymous
Eileen Fisher
Anonymous
I need some new bed pillows. I’d like something pretty traditional and fluffy (soft/not memory foam or buckwheat hulls or latex). I have bought cheap pillows fitting the bill at Target, but they don’t last and now that we have the pandemic, I’m struggling with what to choose online (hard to tell how soft it really is!). Any ideas? Also, non-down would be good for allergies.
Diana Barry
My go-to for bedding is Garnet Hill or The Company Store. Neither are cheap but the quality is great.
Anonymous
Any particular pillows to recommend? I actually have sheets from The Company Store and they’re great!
Diana Barry
I got the primaloft down alternative soft ones for my DD (dust mite allergic and probably down as well) and they are great!
Anonymous
Thank you! Those look perfect. I don’t know why I didn’t think to check them out when I already have sheets from there, but so it goes.
FP
I’ve been very happy with the Casper pillow. They have a few to choose from (like down, etc.) but I have their regular synthetic fill. I believe it is called the Original.
vaccine and positive cases
How should I be feeling about the fact that the lawmakers who tested positive for COVID-19 after sheltering in place with their non-mask wearing colleagues had already received at least their first dose of the vaccine? Is it a non-issue since it hasn’t been long enough for the vaccine to take effect and in any case they still needed to get the second dose, or is it concerning since the initial indications from before the vaccines were approved that even one dose was supposed to provide a high level of protection?
I love vaccines and believe in science, but I also have no trust in the Trump administration so I’m reluctantly now wondering if an inferior product was approved in the hopes of improving Trump’s political fortunes.
alina
Just the first vaccine doesn’t make you immune or vaccinated already. 1 or 2 (I don’t remember) lawmakers already got it from the sheltering in place
Anon
Rep Jayapal got her first dose just a couple of days before January 6, Even to my nonscientific background , it seems reasonable that she hadn’t developed immunity yet.
anon
Even though the first dose provides 80+% of the total immunity, it takes ~3 weeks to take effect once administered.
Z
Yes, this. This is true of many vaccines, including the yearly flu vaccine. Your body takes a couple weeks to build up immunity.
anon
quoting directly from the CDC “It typically takes a few weeks for the body to produce T-lymphocytes and B-lymphocytes after vaccination. Therefore, it is possible that a person could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 just before or just after vaccination and then get sick because the vaccine did not have enough time to provide protection.”
Typically is the key word here. Our metabolisms and immune systems are highly individual, and the roadmap of giving one shot, waiting three weeks, giving another shot, waiting two more weeks and declaring 95% immunity, will vary for some people.
The congresswoman getting infected just after getting vaccinated is just a cruel twist of fate, just like my parents getting infected a few weeks before they would have access to the vaccine. It doesn’t shake my trust in the vaccine.
Anonymous
I believe it takes 14 to 21 days *after the second dose* to be at that 90-95% level.
Anonymous
This shouldn’t impact your feelings on the vaccine! All along the message has been one shot is not enough.
Anon
This is not a concern AT ALL. Data from the clinical trials indicated that it took several weeks to see a difference between the placebo and treatment groups in symptomatic infections. My understanding is that 2 of the 3 infected got their vaccines just 2 or 3 days before they would have gotten infected, which is definitely not enough time to see an effect. The third person got it a week earlier, which was not enough time to have stopped the infection, but for her sake, we can hope that it might have given her immune system a jumpstart on fighting the virus so she doesn’t get as sick as she might have otherwise, given that she’s in a high risk group.
OP
Super! Thanks, all.
AnonMPH
This is a non-issue. Some lawmakers hadn’t even gotten their shots until January (literally days before). Full immunity doesn’t come until 2 weeks after second dose. There is some, unclear data that there is some immunity after the first dose, but the testing that produced that was done at the time of the second dose, so 21 or 28 days after first dose. No one should get vaccinated and then spend time in a room with dozens of unmasked people a few days later.
Literally no one in the country was far enough out from their first shots on January 6 to have the full immunity from their vaccine.
LaurenB
+1 to the last sentence. As an example, my spouse is in the highest priority group as a frontline physician treating Covid patients. He got the first shot on December 17, literally a day or two after it started shipping, and the second shot just last week on January 6 (day of the insurrection as it turns out). So he and the other frontliners are still not fully protected at this stage of the game.
LaurenB
The scientific consensus has been that the vaccines provide ~ 50% effectiveness within a week or two after the first shot, and don’t ramp up fully until a few weeks after the 2nd shot, and so, having a vaccine is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, one still needs to mask, social distance, etc. To your question as to whether an inferior product was approved in the hopes of improving T’s political fortunes, remember that the Pfizer announcement that their vax had achieved success in phase 3 testing did not come out til AFTER the election; if anything, it is possible that Pfizer sat on it for a day or two (understandably and I wouldn’t blame them) so as not to influence the election.
Walnut
The vaccine efficacy was released after the election, wasn’t it? So we shouldn’t (in theory) believe it influenced election results.
Thanks, it has pockets!
A couple things:
1) The vaccine has two doses, and the antibodies from the second dose take two weeks. The only people I know who’ve had their second doses are healthcare workers, and they just got theirs within the last week or so, so very few people can expect to be “fully” immune right now.
2) The vaccine is only 95% effective, which means it’ll work for almost everyone, but some people might get the virus anyway.
wow
I think your only feeling should be that those Republican lawmakers are idiots or even worse – guilty of attempted murder – and should be treated as such and punished. At a minimum, they should all be required to be tested now and their results announced to the public so we can shame them even more.
I guess I’m turning into a bit of a fascist!
Anon
Does anyone own the J. Crew Factory Vanessa sweater jacket from this season? The most recent review on it says it doesn’t wash well. Is that true? I just bought one, and I’m thinking of returning it. I still have a couple from last year that I never wore, but they are not petite sized like my new one is and I like not swimming in fabric.
Also, has anyone ordered the Chateau Puffer from J. Crew and the similar puffer from Factory? I got the Factory one and even though it was called “bright cerise” (a color I had purchased from J. Crew before that seemed to be actual red), it was fluorescent orange. I know the Brilliant Sunset parka from J. Crew this season is also orange, but I wonder if it is the very same orange as Factory is offering. Does anyone know? I don’t want to order a bunch of things at once, because my family is having a heart attack at the pile of packages I have and the amount of returns I am constantly making.
Anon
Quality from J. Crew Factory is crap, so I wouldn’t order anything from there, but that’s of course just my personal opinion.
Anonymous
Generally, yes. However, I find the sweater blazers/jackets to have really nice, surprisingly thick material. I’d never pay full price for them, mostly becuase that price is too close to the typical JCrew price for similar items, but at 40% off or 50% off, they’re a pretty good deal. Also just my opinion. I don’t machine wash mine. I wear them over short sleeved shirts mostly and take them to the cleaner at the same frequency I would take a typical blazer.
Anonymous
I machine wash on delicate my Vanessa jackets and then line dry them. Love, love, love them.
Anonforthis
Does anyone have recs for the type of resource I’m looking for—I don’t think therapy since I’m not trying to solve a problem, and not really life coaching since I have a pretty clear idea of my plan. More, I’m looking just to be able to talk to someone about something I can’t really talk to my friends about. (Not the issue, but think “excited and terrified about an unplanned pregnancy with friends who are TTC, and just looking to talk to someone to say it’s exciting! It’s scary! Am I crazy!”).
AIMS
This place?
OP
<3 love it here (usually lol) there’s a reason I asked you all!
Anonymous
A Reddit forum, here, a counselor if you want
anon
my employers employee assistance program has counselers available for a one-off session just to talk through things.
OP
Thanks, that might be what I’m looking for— I tried therapy once before for something similar and found the first session useful, but not so much after that, so that might be a good alternative.
Senior Attorney
I feel like that’s what therapy is. It’s not necessarily limited to “trying to solve a problem.” It’s for working through feelings and life situations.
Walnut
If it makes you feel better, I had lots of emotions with my first pregnancy (planned, but conceived way faster than I expected) and also with my third (unplanned and REALLY terrible timing). If you post a burner email, I’m happy to chat.
anonnnn
I do use my therapist for this. I no longer need to see her on a regular basis, but I do text her maybe once or twice a year for an appointment to talk through something that I need an unbiased and trained opinion on.
Anon
What do you all like for birth control, please, particularly the pill? Would love to hear your suggestions! Dr suggested lo loestrin, and have found junel to be ok. Mini pill side effects aren’t great, and gained weight on Ortho and Yasmin (despite Yasmin being known for weight loss). Paragard copper IUD also didn’t work out. Of course, would love something with minimal side effects such as weight gain, hair loss, increased risk of breast cancer. I appreciate it’s all relative and personal, suggestions welcome! Thanks a million!
LaurenB
Just so you’re aware, the pill is associated with increased risk of breast and cervical cancer, but decreased risk of endometrial, ovarian, and colorectal cancers, so there’s a bit of “pick your poison.”
Anon
The issue is the effects are different for everyone, because we all have a different hormonal profile, diet, lifestyle, set of health concerns, etc. The best bet is going to different docs, having them look at your medical history, and hoping they can and will offer good perspective from their experience w/patients like you.
Anon
I’ve been happy with the nuvaring for years. I had a lot of trouble with nausea with pills, and this is way better. No obvious side effects.
Duckles
Can’t speak to stroke/cancer risk but I’ve been on Apri for 15 years with no noticeable side effects after the first two weeks (nausea and slight weight gain). I love not getting a period and don’t think I have in over ten years. I have considered that it’s weird I’ve been on this my entire adult life and don’t know what it feels like to NOT be on it, but not so curious to try.
pugsnbourbon
Did the Paragard not work because it was an IUD or because it was copper/non-hormonal? I had Mirena for 10 years and had no issues with hair thinning or weight gain. I think Skyla or Kyleena have even lower doses of hormone. If progesterone is the issues than disregard.
Anon
I can’t tolerate any formulation. Nausea, blood sugar issues, weight gain, hair loss, menopause-like symptoms, painful intercourse, difficulty sleeping, skin problems, constantly feeling tense and anxious, breakthrough bleeding, the works. The only way I might be able to take the pill is if I took half a dozen other meds for all the side effects!
Anon
I do better on tri-phasic pills than monophasic.
Anon
Condoms because there are no side effects.
anonshmanon
+1. Said goodbye to the pill a decade ago…
anon
In my experience, one major side effect of condoms only was pregnancy. But I guess YMMV.
OP Anon
Extraordinary how many people have had reactions to the pill! Here I was thinking I sounded so particular, having tried a few over twenty years…thank you all for the insight.
Yes, family history of breast cancer (not to mention ovarian), so trying to stay on the lesser side of evil with combo pills, most likely…but then there could be other side effects, and let’s be honest most of us are not trying to gain weight (no matter how much it might look like it!).
For whatever reason (pain!) I fainted during the paragard procedure so unfortunately that’s out.
I’ll look into nuvaring and apri – thank you. Have an appointment today so will see.
Thank you all so much – somewhat glad I’m not the only one with challenges finding a good fit!
Susan
I know you said no Yasmin, and I think I tried that and didn’t like it either (it’s been too long), but I’ve taken Beyaz for years and liked it. Amen to the struggles.
Anon
Thank you so much! I’m still doing my research into this one, never heard of it. Amen indeed!
Anon
I’m a midlevel litigator with a long leash at work, I run my case load pretty much independently. Earlier in my career I worked at an extremely toxic firm that had me working what felt like 24/7. I am realizing when I switched firms and set boundaries I may have over corrected. I now put my mental and physical health first, but with all the craziness of the last year, I am really struggling with both. I feel like I’m constantly giving myself permission to just take it easy and do the bare minimum today, because I’m so overwhelmed by current events. I always think I can catch up later but later never comes. I feel like I’ve forgotten how to power through bad days, and everyday feels like a bad day. Has anyone else gone through this?
Anonymous
Yes, definitely. There was a thread here recently that was somewhat related about influencers giving people “permission” for “self-care” and I personally don’t find that helpful because I don’t need their permission anyway, but right now, I also don’t need any more encouragement to do the bare minimum. I need more encouragement to power through if anything! I took a few hours of PTO on the insurrection day last week, the first time I’ve ever taken unscheduled PTO like that, and I’m not sure it actually helped. I think I might have done better setting a Pomodoro timer and putting my head down to get the work done.
Anon
not saying this is the best strategy, but here is what i do – somehow all of our politicians went back into the same building where they were hiding from terrorists later that day, and the next day and the day after that – i feel like i would have PTSD and need so much therapy to get over what they went through, but for them it is not a choice, but to get back to work. the other thing i tell myself (and again, not saying this is totally healthy), but my grandparents were Holocaust survivors – if my grandmother could survive a concentration camp, then I can get through X. again – this is not really a healthy long term strategy bc i do think if you are having trouble, feeling depressed/anxious you should get help, but sometimes helps me in the moment
No Face
No tips, just commiseration. I was doing great as recently as December, but this month has been terrible for my billables! I am very responsive to deadlines, and I have none in my cases right now. Very difficult for me to do anything.
I go back and forth between thinking I should pull myself together and thinking that pressure I am putting on myself in a raging pandemic coupled with major political upheaval is unhealthy.
AnonATL
Same. I can bring myself to do the immediately important things but have been procrastinating everything else. before, I would have stayed on top of them more and achieved more over the course of the project instead of just the end.
I’ve installed some productivity things to help block sites like this during certain times of the day.
I also pick a chunk of my workday to work on those fuzzy longterm projects that are so easy to put down and not pick back up. Scheduling everything in my day helps me actually get it done.
Anon
Absolutely. Same situation. At my old firm, I was always working weekends, late nights, etc. I now only work during normal work hours unless I have a tight deadline or emergency.. but it has also meant that if I slack during work hours nothing gets done. Especially since I have a lot of work that needs to be done right now but doesn’t have any specific deadlines.
PNW
Happy vaccine related news. I haven’t seen my 87 year old dad for over a year, and he just told me that he is on the official call list with his doctor to get his first dose. His state is doing pretty well, but had been stuck on the “A1” tier which is health care providers and people in care homes. Dad has no underlying conditions other than just being an old guy. So glad he’s finally “on the list” and can start looking forward to seeing him :)
Anonymous
Yay! I’m cautiously optimistic for my dad as well, but I don’t know that I’ll be comfortable visiting unless I am also vaccinated (although of course we’ll do masks/outside). We’ll see how things go. So glad your dad should get his soon!
Anon
Yay! My mom’s appointment for her first round is in 2 hours and my dad’s is Friday evening. I’m so excited!!
Emma
My grandparents got the first shot on Tuesday! This is such a relief and I am excited for them.
Horse Crazy
Yay! California announced yesterday that they’re opening it to everyone over 65, and people 16-64 with documented medical conditions. That means both my parents and mother in law are all now eligible! We are so excited, and now just need the distribution to get its act together…
Anonymous
I thought it was just to people over 65? Do you have a link for the part about people 16-64? It’s been hard to find accurate information here lately and all my providers are emailing different things…
Horse Crazy
I just heard it on NPR yesterday, but now that I’m looking further into it, it looks like the state may not be doing under 65 with medical conditions yet. Info is soooo hard to find!
Rainbow Hair
Do you have any idea how people sign up in CA? I’m so eager for my fam (and me) to get it!
Horse Crazy
They’re telling people to wait to hear from their doctor’s offices. Or, if you live near one of the mass vaccine sites, I think you can go there. They are Disneyland, Dodger Stadium, Petco Park, and CalExpo. Now we need one in the Bay Area!
anon
Yay! Between my parents and DH’s parents/step-parents, one (a doctor) is due for his second dose any day, four have had their first dose, and one has an appointment for Saturday for her first dose.
AnonATL
This is such exciting news! I can imagine the relief you all must feel that not only is your loved one going to be safe(r) now but also for hope that you’ll get to see them again soon.