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Updated: Jan 15, 2021 468 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Puff Sleeve Sweatshirt

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

If I can find any tiny sliver of a silver lining from the last ten months, it’s the fact that a lot of clothing companies are really upping their loungewear game. I think the slightly puffed sleeves and the wide band at the waist make this sweatshirt a significant upgrade from what I currently have stashed away in my closet.

This would be a great, cozy work-from-home top, and you could probably even pull it off in a more informal office with a pair of dark jeans or ankle pants. I really love the white version, but if you’re looking to add some color, it also comes in pink and red. It’s also available in black, but lucky sizes only.

The sweatshirt is $54.50, marked down to $21.80 with code AHHH. It comes in regular sizes XXS–XXL. The “fearless red” color is also available in petite sizes XXS–XXL and plus sizes 14–26. Puff Sleeve Sweatshirt

Sales of note for 9.30.24

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Anonymous

    I really wish that the brand and store were listed in the blog post. I hate having to click the link to find out that the item is from a brand that will never fit me. I know the omission of this information is probably deliberately intended to drive clicks, but I find it so annoying that I usually don’t bother to click the link even when I like the item. I’d probably buy more through affiliate links if brands and stores were specified in the descriptions.

    • Ribena

      Me too – both from a size perspective and also because many brands aren’t available in the UK, and even if they are, it won’t be via Nordstrom, for example.

      • Anon

        Same – it’s always disappointing to click on a link and find that the item isn’t available in Canada or if it is, the dollar exchange and shipping rate make it astronomically priced.

    • Anon

      I agree that brands and stores would be helpful, but it’s odd to make this comment on something from LOFT. The post says it’s available from XXS-26, which is about as broad of a range as a store gets.

      • Anon

        Sizes are not all there is to fit, and some of us are also completely over the terrible quality of clothing at certain stores (including LOFT) and have no intentions to shop there again — while another person might love LOFT’s affordability and fit. I have a hard time imagining someone would prefer to be surprised about where they are clicking through to, though I suppose I could be wrong.

        • Anon

          While loft fits me (well, their Julie pants do), I’m so over their crap quality, the fact that it’s overpriced for what it is, and their annoying fake price model.

          I also worked there as a side job a few years ago and the culture there (maybe just my store?) sucked and there was SO MUCH unnecessary plastic in shipping that I’ve boycotted them since.

          I did just buy a loft sweater from Goodwill though. But, for $4.50 I don’t care about the quality and my money is going to Goodeill, not LOFT

      • MJ

        I see you your broadness in size and raise you the fact that I have extremely long arms, so a sweatshirt that is not from certain places (whether a Tall or a regular) won’t fit me. If this were from, say, Old Navy, I would know that they carry Tall sweatshirts. If it were from, say, Reiss, I would know they only go up to a small 12, and do not carry Talls!

    • anon

      I always thought it was part of the blogger game. They want you to have to click and follow links to retailers which one way or another can lead to earnings to the originating s! te.

    • Monday

      I’m pretty sure the info used to be included in the posts. It would say something like “It’s marked down to $XX at LOFT.” I agree it would be better to bring it back.

    • Anon

      This page is free to use – something has to pay the bills. You could probably google search in a different window “puff sleeve sweatshirt” and get the information without clicking.

    • Anon

      The page wouldn’t exist without click through links.

      It’s amazing how people don’t think content creators deserve to make money. The entitlement.

      • Anonymous

        I think OP is saying she would click more links, and the blog would make more money, if she knew what she was clicking on.

        • Anon

          I think most people, including me, don’t care enough *not* to click. Do I waste a minute clicking on a $1000 dress when I would never spend that much? Big deal. Same with Loft or another cheap brand I rarely buy from. Overall there are probably more clicks from the “don’t care” readers than the “omg no I will not click” people.

      • Anonymous

        I know of no other fashion blog that hides brand information–in fact, usually they make a big deal out of it. They all seem to do just fine.

        • Anon

          +1 I would be more likely to click something if I knew it was NOT a brand that I was uninterested in — there’s just a few I never buy anymore that are featured here a lot, so I rarely click through.

      • Monday

        People aren’t complaining about affiliate links though! They’re saying they wish the company was listed in the post.

      • all about eevee

        That is not what this commenter is saying at all. She would click MORE links if she knew the brand of the item. She is the opposite of entitled – she is providing valuable constructive criticism that will help the blog make more money.

        • Anonymous

          +1, I am more likely to click through and actually purchase if I know the brand is one that fits me.

    • anon

      I swear the brand was listed in these posts, until fairly recently! I also find it annoying.

    • Cat

      I agree. If you hover over the link, eventually it expands so you can see the brand web info (after all the affiliate routing). But I like to know where I’m being sent.

    • Silly Valley

      +1million. I’m much more likely to click if the brand is listed; otherwise it’s just another step and unless I really love something I’m probably not going to bother. Kat/Elizabeth, please consider adding this in the future.

    • Annalilly

      I do get why they do it, but the links are blocked for me at work, so I can’t see what the clothes are. I would appreciate knowing what the brand is. I usually try to go back to the influencer’s page when purchasing, but I don’t do that here when I don’t know where to look. It’s reduced my likelihood to purchase, when I have to look it up later to see if it’s something I’d even want.

  2. Pajama upgrade

    I’m looking for beautiful pajamas. Criteria: want to be able to wear them in front of guests and in-laws. Love color and patterns. I want them to feel luxurious (silky, unique) but don’t necessarily need/them to be expensive: ie, silk is lovely, but satin is just fine.

    Any recommendations?

    • Ribena

      There was a recent episode of Forever35 podcast about this with lots of names suggested – might be a good place to start?

      I’m similarly on a hunt – I find it difficult to find anything in the gulf between ‘jersey with printed cartoons on’ and ‘satin, lace, and strappy’, neither of which fit what I want.

      • OP

        Yes!! That’s exactly my problem. I don’t want to look like a vixen or look too mumsy. Surely there’s a cute, happy medium out there!

    • Anonymous

      Tommy Bahama
      Long sleeve, long pants or short sleeve and capris. silky but the prints are less sexy more vacation

    • Anonymous

      I think there is a brand called “The Cat’s Pajamas” that sells the beautiful flannel pajamas with fun patterns that are often used on TV shows.

    • AIMS

      I really like cosabella and Eberjay pajamas for this purpose (size up!), and buy them whenever they are on sale (you can often find them for around $50). I also have actual silk pajamas and they are amazing and make me feel so happy but they are a bit of a pain to wash so I don’t wear them nearly as often as I would like.

      Josie Natori makes some nice ones too, there is a pair on sale at Nordstrom Rack sitting in my shopping cart as I type.

      • Another Anon

        Hi, I got a gift of Eberjays and love them! Have you seen them on sale on their website? That would be great news!

        • AIMS

          I usually just look for them at SaksOff5th or a Nordstrom or Bloomingdales when they have big sales. I just got a pair at Saks but the same pair seems to be marked back up to $139 now. It happens with regular frequency though so I would just keep an eye out.

    • asdf

      I got some flannel pajamas from anthropologie that I just love. Checked my email and apparently they are the Florence Balducci Menagerie Flannel PJs. No longer in the shops, but maybe you can find something similar. They are warm, look nice, and wash well. Not a luxury fabric, but still very nice (and presentable). I bought them because I was reading about the hostess PJs of the 1930s.

    • Anon

      Satin is a weave, not a fiber. Satin can be made of real silk. Do you mean polyester?

    • Cat

      Not silk, but I was #influenced to try Lake Pajamas and they are the best, sturdy-soft cotton ever.

    • Sunflower

      I’m very happy with Printfresh products. They’re 100% cotton and come in lovely modern prints.

  3. Anon

    Help! I have Crate and Barrel basic white bowls, plates, and mugs. Over the years, they have become stained—the mugs from coffee and tea, and the plates from dark foods, I guess? They are definitely clean. I’ve washed them and soaked them a million times. But they look terrible. Can they be saved?

    • AIMS

      Baking soda! It’s magic. Just make a little paste, let sit for a minute and scrub off with a soft sponge.

    • Anon

      I had good experience leaving stained items in direct sun for a few hours and let the sunrays do their job. Alternatively, fresh lemon jouice and baking soda with a dash of hot water might do the trick. I also have Yellow&Blue Puer powder, which gets my white kitchen sink and linens white.

    • potato

      No advice but solidarity. We have similar china from Macys. I’m fantasizing about replacing it all with Wegewood white.

      • Lilau

        I have wedgewood as my everyday dishes; it was the “china” I registered for when I got married. I’ve never had this problem and they’ve been in the dishwasher every day for at least eight years now. So I’ll be the push if you need one!

        • Cat

          +1, we have been using our Wedgwood for 10+ years and it has stayed perfectly white. There are a few light scratches from steak knives over the years but even those little grooves haven’t stained.

        • Anon

          Similarly, I have Apilco french white porcelain from Williams Sonoma for about 5 years now and no scratches, breakages or staining. They go in the dishwasher, and my now-preschooler uses them.

        • Aunt Jamesina

          I think it’s dependent on your water and dishwasher. We use white bone china and have no staining issues in our current home, but in our last place with harder water, things like coffee would leave stains. It’s very easy to remove with a paste of baking soda or Barkeeper’s Friend/Bon Ami.

      • Anon

        Was going to suggest this. I got dark stains out of a really pretty thrift-store bowl by coating the surface with, of all things, toilet bowl cleaner that had bleach in it. I figured if it’s designed to clean ceramic/porcelain toilet bowls it was worth a shot. I put on a thick coat and left it in the sink overnight and the next day washed it out; the stains were gone. Washed it again to make sure any residue was gone and I still have it to this day.

    • Anon

      Try Bar Keepers Friend. We use it on our white farm sink to “bleach out” the dark stains in the scratches. Works a charm.

      • givemyregards

        +1 I use this on plates and bowls that get silver scratch marks from utensils. Usually requires a soak and then a bit of elbow grease, but gets the job done and is oddly satisfying.

    • Trixie

      bleach! soak them in water and bleach. I soak my coffee cups as they get stained. I don’t have a recipe, I just throw it together. Doesn’t take long, and then give them a good rinse or put them in the dishwasher.

  4. Anon

    Can anyone speak to the quality of Harry & David wine? I want to send a champagne + cheese/charcuterie gift to a friend of mine (one of our pre-COVID traditions!). It’s proving to be harder than I thought to get both decent champagne and cheese, and Harry & David seems like the best option I can find. Any suggestions appreciated. Thank you!

    • Anonymous

      Have you tried igourmet dot com? I don’t know about their wine, but the quality of the cheese is far superior.

    • Veronica Mars

      Okay, alcohol is a little tricky, but I have to recommend Jasper Hill Farm for cheese. I found them via Williams Sonoma’s website and decided to order directly from them for a gift for a friend. It came BEAUTIFULLY packaged and she was so excited she sent me a video opening it! I would highly, highly recommend them.

    • Anon

      You may check local wine stores. Mine sells cheese, charcuterie, and wine and delivers, though I’ve never tried to deliver the foods. Stores local to her may be delivering now even if they didn’t used to!

      • Anon

        I’m in S.F. and this looks great! Thanks for the link, I hadn’t heard of this company.

      • Digby

        Plum Market might be a good option. It’s a tiny chain of grocery stores in metro Detroit with both good wine and cheese options in-store, and I know they do gift baskets.

    • Thanks, it has pockets!

      I’ve been getting the wine and cheese pairing of the month from Harry and David, as a birthday/Christmas present from my boyfriend, and I love them! I think one bottle was kind of meh, but most of the wines are pretty good, and a few have been really tasty. I actually just got my monthly delivery today and I can’t wait to try this chardonnay and cheese pairing.

    • Rainbow Hair

      Heads up: I recently sent an H&D gift basket (like it arrived on Weds) and I had a ridiculously hard time finding things that were actually in stock to get there relatively soon. Once I finally found something that was not romantic (it was for a neighbor whose wife died, so Valentine-adjacent felt extra inappropriate) and was available… I got a call the next day that actually it *wasn’t* available, and would I like to replace it with something else? I will say that the customer service was great, but the supply issues were frustrating especially since it felt kind of time-sensitive.

      • Anonymous

        Same. Also, right now the pears don’t seem to be of the usual quality.

    • MJ

      Recommend Pennyroyal Farm in the Anderson Valley CA–they are both very accomplished cheesemakers and winemakers–and they ship.

  5. Anonymous

    I made partner this year! Bad news: work that went to me is drying up (going to associates). Good news: I expected a slow January. What can I do to prep for a billable hour year in the 1300 range instead of 1800? Soft stuff like – I don’t need to be at my computer from 7-7 anymore.

    • AnonATL

      IANAL or work in billable hours, but I do have very cyclical work and coming down off those busy times can be hard. I try to move my focus to things like my health and prioritize a walk every day during lunch or something similar.
      Otherwise I feel like I get pretty glum just staring at my screen with what feels like nothing to do all of a sudden.
      Btw congrats on making partner!

      • AnonATL

        I think I had a little reading comprehension fail about your actual question.
        But still congrats on making partner.

    • AFT

      Fine tune your business plan, schedule zoom coffee or other connections with clients or contacts? Seems like a great opportunity to be work on your strategy for being a successful new partner.

    • Anonymous

      So, if you don’t already have a business plan, I would prepare one, create objectives for this year and start executing on them. When comp time comes around, and for the sake of your long term career, you want to make progress. I would also suggest a day catching up on your personal financial stuff like those bank errands you have been putting off. (Oh wait, the bank stuff is me!)

    • Anon

      From a partner to another: focus on your business development efforts (Zoom coffees, get-in-touch emails, publish articles, speak at webinars etc). As a partner your job is to generate work, and not just billing for the work generated by others.

      • Anon

        +1 And track your business development hours so you can state how much time you’ve spent on various projects that might generate clients.

  6. Ductless ACs

    Does anyone have a ductless AC unit that also provides heat? How well does it work?

    We have a vaulted family room/living area. It’s not a full 2 stories high, but it’s maybe 15 or 18′ at the peak. The old owner installed a very expensive propane fireplace unit. It heats the room like a pro – overheats it if you keep it on too long – but it’s ugly as sin and takes up a giant area of the room. I’d like to remove it and reclaim/reorient the entire room. We already have a ductless AC in that room from the early 1990s that needs replacing. Curious if the dual heat/AC ductless units are effective. We have regular baseboard heat in the room but the vaulted ceiling and three walls of windows makes it hard to heat without the support of the fireplace. I wouldn’t expect anything to be as powerful as that fireplace, but that’s actually OK with us.

    • Anon for this

      We have mini-splits (is that the same thing as ductless, I’m not sure). They work great for AC in our 10′ ceiling house. We also use them for light heat (we’re in a historic house that has lovely, lovely radiators) in fall and spring when we only need a little bit of a push in the morning or evening and don’t want to fire up the whole boiler — they’re not great for deep winter IMHO as they’d need to be on constantly.

      • Anon for this

        Oh, re-reading your post, this may actually be ideal for you – I missed the “regular baseboard heat” part.

    • Anon

      Having a similar house – two stories with a wall of windows. Honestly, I’d think hard about replacing the fireplace with something more to your liking. There are a ton of newer, smaller more aesthetically pleasing gas fireplaces that might have more control on how to heat the room. There are just some times that the fireplace really is the best heating solution.

      • Anon

        This, I’d look into changing the fixture not ditching the concept. To see if the other solution would work for you, try turning the fireplace completely off, get a space heater, and see if you’re warm enough – that’s what you’re talking about doing especially with high ceilings. We have a propane fireplace too and I cannot imagine ripping it out as the heat source with similar architecture.

        • Anon

          PS – ours is temperature controlled, you can set it to heat like a regular heater so we put it to 68 and then it turns itself off automatically – thats probably a very easy fix for your overheating issue

  7. Anon

    What specific goals do you try to reach on your fitbit on a daily basis? I recently got the Charge 4 but realized that I haven’t really used it actively. For example, I usually only hit 5 of the 22 active zone minutes. I usually ignore the 250 steps per hour reminder. It seems to be a more passive tracker of how many calories I burn at this rate. What specific goals do you try to achieve when using Fitbit?

    • Anon

      I had a Fitbit and now have a Garmin and try to hit my daily step, active minute, distance, floors climbed and calorie goals daily (so , all of them). I also like both devices for tracking sleep, water, and food.

    • Anon

      I just focus on total steps and try to make that goal every day. I hate the active zone minutes and miss the old active minutes or whatever they were called, because even a brisk walk often isn’t enough to get my heart rate into the zone that counts, which means I have to do an actual workout to get those. I also use the exercise goal of 5 days a week, which does count 20 minutes of walking, even if my heart rate isn’t high enough for the active zone minutes. I ignore the rest, though the calorie and heart rate tracking is useful.

    • anon

      I like to count the flights of stairs I do, because I always hit a big goal without even trying ;).

    • Ellen

      I get notices all day from Fitbit when I am sitting on my tuchus. Every hour at 10 minutes to the hour, it tells me how many more steps I need to make 250, and it is usually 200 or more. So I fail there. I also get eating reminders, sleeping reminders and diet reminders every day. I must eat only certain foods and then stop eating hours b/f I go to sleep.

      I even got an email from Fitbit yesterday that they completed their acquisition by Google. So I anticipate Google will know everything about me, including when I have my periods, b/c Fitbit tracks those for me now. I hope Google can find me a husband so that I can have children soon!

    • Anon

      I love the 250 steps per hour thing because I have a knee injury and need a reminder to keep moving so I don’t get stiff.

  8. Anonymous

    Have you ever known middle age adults (say age 35 or 40+) who haven’t “figured out life” for lack of a better term?

    I’m not suggesting everyone needs to quit their job and travel and contemplate life. I’m referring to the basics — be kind to everyone it makes life more pleasant; relationships matter; spend some time with the elders in your life or at least don’t be mean to them because even 80+ year olds have feelings; great jobs are great but employers can take advantage/aren’t loyal; practice self care — said employer isn’t going to tell you you need to work out or get a physical or vacation. Small stuff like that.

    Sure all of us let 1 or a few of these things slide at times in life, yet do you know anyone who doesn’t realize ANY of these things — almost floating along as an 18 or 22 yr old would who says what he wants and thinks he’s made it big with a few dollars in his pocket? How do people like this “grow” up when they’re already middle aged?

    • Veronica Mars

      This sounds weirdly paternalistic. I mean, maybe? But then I remind myself to have compassion for other people, because we rarely get the full picture of what someone has been dealing with in life, and the circumstances that brought them to the point they’re at now. And frankly, we never get a true 360 view of a person. If this person is annoying you, put some distance and determine why those behaviors are getting so under your skin. Swim in your own lane, and all that.

      • Brunette Elle Woods

        Yea this just sounds judgmental and a stretch. Figuring out life is not being kind, knowing relationships matter and spending time with the elderly. It’s figuring out what you personally value.

        • Anonymous

          And if what you value isn’t some combination of relationships – friend or romantic – family, and/or being a good kind person — let me tell you it isn’t looking that good for you nor so different from OP’s friend/family member.

    • Anonymous

      There are plenty of middle-aged and older adults out there acting like selfish 21-year-olds. My 80-something in-laws, for example. For some people, parenthood is what pushes them over into the “adult” column. Something about being responsible for another human being tends to make people start thinking long-term and big-picture. Parenthood is neither necessary or sufficient to achieve an adult mindset, but for some people it’s the kick in the pants they need.

      • Anon

        Sometimes. Sometimes parenthood makes people more self-centered, because it’s about the “kids” (i.e. an extension of them). YMMV.

    • Anon

      They don’t. They continue on just as they are with their lack of self awareness and have no clue that the majority of their acquaintances only tolerate them because they’ve been part of a given circle for so long. Just be careful that you don’t marry one.

    • Anon

      I don’t know – they don’t grow up? Some people suck, the end. I just move on.

    • anon

      They don’t grow up. And they usually have a handful of people enabling them in the background.

      • anon

        Seriously lol this sounds like a very specific complaint about a specific person

    • Anonymous

      I have a sibling like this. Age 45. At this point I’m not holding out hopes of her growing up. We tolerate her because – family – but honestly as time goes by I don’t see the next gen (my other siblings) being as forgiving of her being mean, lashing out at us and our elderly parents, saying what she wishes and assuming we’ll just move on. My parents still do because they love her like moms and dads love kids; my siblings eh I think we all expect some respect. In her case she’s set up this workaholic life — and I’m not criticizing workaholics I am one too — where NOTHING else matters/everything else is secondary. Fits your description to a tee including lack of self care, vacations etc. Part of me does wonder if once you’ve “removed” yourself from life for two decades in favor of work and your work isn’t something all consuming like being a surgeon or something — you sort of don’t know where to start in terms of talking to non work people, having friends, having interests that don’t pay — and then you lash out out of frustration from that and push others even further away. Yet I could never say this to her without her just screaming at me rather than having an honest conversation.

    • Anonymous

      Sure? How is this a question? Yes. Immature aimless people of all ages exist.

    • Anonymous

      I didn’t realize this was SO common. People really know that many senior citizens still behaving like this?? What OP describes was totally the behavior of my peer group in our 20s even late 20s/early 30s for some. Then IDK life happens. You have a kid, aging parents, divorce or don’t find a partner, lose a job, and/or end up moving somewhere you don’t want to live because of a job or partner and have to start over. Or even if it all goes well, somehow someway life disappoints you and you don’t attain what you imagined. IDK life knocks you down a few notches and I think that’s what instills empathy — when you experience that things happen despite your best efforts. You realize that everyone from your parents to coworkers to strangers are dealing with things — I think that you end up kinder.

      • Anon

        Have you ever heard of/visited The Villages? If not, look it up. Oooooh yeah, it’s common.

        • Anonymous

          I’ve heard of it in that I know it’s a retirement community in Fla. but what goes on there that makes you think people fit this description? Do tell I’m curious now.

          • Anon

            I’ve been there a lot. I’m not sure the villages collectively fits this description, but maybe I suppose?

            It’s like a cruise ship on dryland. Happy hour starts at 11am. Live entertainment 7 days a week. Drinks are cheap. Hundreds (thousands?) of holes of golf. Pimped out golf carts everywhere. Everything shuts down in the “town squares” by like 8. My aunts/uncles/cousins always went annually to visit the family elders (in before times) and we always had the best time. I’ve never seen so many people with so few cares. It’s legitimately horrifying, fascinating and spectacular. “Great place to visit but I wouldn’t wanna live there” so they say..

          • Anon

            Ooooh man, there’s so much out there on the Villages. It’s basically a concentration of middle/upper middle class retired white folks who move there for cheap taxes (at the expense of locals/non-Villagers) and to relive their youth. The place is the epitome of “I got mine, so f**k the rest of y’all” attitude that stereotypes the baby boomer generation.

          • Anon

            I’m Anon at 12:26…. I’d clarify to a say that my definition of having “the best time ever” means like “ha ha, can you believe we did that?!” vs like wholesome getaway that I’m eager to do again. Aunts/uncles/now adult cousins who like to party, who we never see, ordering many rounds of Fireball shots for the entire bar and doing shotski’s with some old guy they just met but are from the same hometown (because no one there is actually from there) while 75 year old grandmas are legitimately dropping it like its hot on old (single? maybe not?) men. The people watching is next to nothing. Like, so good, but so weird.

            Anon at 12:36, I like your much more articulate description of why it’s a problem. Spot on.

          • Thanks, it has pockets!

            Isn’t there a new documentary about this? I just saw an email from my local indie theater, it’s called Some Kind of Heaven and now that you’ve brought it up, I think I really need to watch this.

          • Anon

            Oh wow, is there? As the other poster mentioned, the Villages is primo people-watching, so I guess that would make for an interesting documentary.

        • The Villages Lowdown

          I spent the first 10 weeks of quarantine stuck in The Villages with my parents. Apart from being stuck in a retirement community, it was absolutely awful because the Villagers refused to quarantine or socially distance. They felt like they had earned their fun retirement (and they call Millennials entitled!) and weren’t willing to stop partying. The Villages had to shut down the social squares and lock up the tennis/pickleball courts. I started videotaping what happened after that – Villagers would still congregate in the closed town squares and blast their own music to continue having their dance parties until The Villages literally had to fence off and lock the squares. They locked the tennis courts and people cut through the locks. Then The Villages removed the nets – Villagers brought their own. No matter what anyone tried to do to stop people from socializing, it didn’t work.

          Over Thanksgiving my parents’ neighbors had a 35 person party. Apparently at least 10 people contracted COVID and 1 died. Didn’t stop anyone else from continuing to socialize. My parents have since put their house on the market and are moving closer to me to get out of that crazy world. But happy to give further descriptions of what life was like in the Disney World for old people.

          Oh, also look up The Villages + loofah colors on the internet. You’re welcome.

          • Anon

            I SO want to hear more about Disney World for old people!! I’ve never heard of this.

          • Anon

            Highest STI rates in the state are in the Villages. I mean, anyone can get an STI, but when you think the laws of disease transmission don’t apply…. as another poster mentioned, it’s playing out similarly with COVID.

      • Anonymous

        OMG THIS. I think this is totally true. When you’re 22 or 25 most middle class/upper middle class kids with good jobs from top schools are riding pretty high and then as you move on life happens and you realize that your ivy degree doesn’t protect you from losing a job or getting divorced or remaining single when you don’t want to be or whatever it may be. I do think being able to empathize comes from experiencing things happen that just randomly happened despite how hard you tried.

      • BeenThatGuy

        This. I was going to come here to say the exact same thing but probably not as eloquent.

      • Anon

        This. Most of the really obnoxious people I know are those who have not had anything go wrong. They are convinced that other people have problems because they haven’t done life right. Maybe it’s understandable (albeit problematic) for a middle-class teenager to think that; it’s downright screwed up when people think that at age 40.

        A year or so ago, I posted about a now-former friend who told me that my marriage was less important than hers because I got married over a decade after she did. She hasn’t had a damn thing go wrong in her adult life: she and her husband got jobs straight out of college (or with him, straight out of flunking out of college), moved up, never got laid off, never were sick, had kids when they wanted them, healthy parents, all that. Has the empathy of a rat.

        • Anonymous

          OMG I remember your post and I remember being horrified that anyone would think any marriage was not “important.” IDK what that even means. But yeah I agree with you, there ARE people who went to college, debt free/worked their way thru, got first jobs, ended up getting promoted right on schedule and stayed at that first job for years if not decades; paid well, bought the house; had the kids if/when they wanted kids without a slew of miscarriages or IVF; kids came out fine — no special needs or medical issues costing thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of running around etc; never a layoff or monetary troubles that kept them up at night or ever required them to cancel a vacation; never had to pull all nighters at work or work weekends to hold onto their white collar job — a standard 40 hours was it.

          Come to think of it, I do wonder if people are saying their senior citizen relatives have zero empathy because honestly the preceding WAS the case for many of them so it’s hard for them to imagine that you don’t just have 2 kids when you want 2 kids and they think you’re making a huge fuss if you’re spending thousands on your kid’s speech therapy because in their opinion delays aren’t a thing. I know my own parents are VERY critical of the younger generation job hopping and I always think — yeah very easy to be critical when you yourself were getting promoted to manager and partner within 5 years of graduating school and now law associates work 2400 hrs/year or more in major metro areas and 13 years later STILL haven’t been promoted, whereas you grabbed those promotions at 1600 hrs/year and within 5-6 years.

          • Anonymous

            This is the problem with my in-laws. Everything just fell into their laps because they were middle-class white people with above-average schmoozing skills who were in the right place at the right time in history. They genuinely believe they earned and deserve everything they have, and they don’t understand why their children, who are all much more educated and work harder and started saving for retirement much earlier, aren’t doing as well as they did. They assume it’s because we don’t work as hard as they did, which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s the same “prosperity gospel” that nearly destroyed our government–the belief that if you have a lot it’s because you deserve it, and that if you don’t have a lot it’s because you are bad, lazy, and undeserving.

    • Lilau

      This really seems like you’re referring to a specific person or people. Do I know plenty of people who can’t “grow up”? Sure. I think sometimes I’m one of them.

      But I don’t really associate the inability to form relationships or respect elders or practice kindness with being a workaholic. It’s just being a jerk. And I don’t associate workaholism or being a jerk with immaturity, per se.

    • Anon

      You mean the countless failure to launch adults who live with their parents until they die, then try to take the family house away “because they live in it” from the rest of the siblings who kick them out to live on the streets from a lifetime of being nothing but a burden to others?

      Yes, yes I do.

        • Anon

          Are you too privileged to see past your face or too dumb to read the statistics of millenials and older who have to live with their parents either due to circumstance, mental illness, or a sheer force of laziness? Please get out of here with your “ignorant comments”.

    • Cat

      I’m really curious how old the OP is that she views late 30s as “middle aged.”

      Yes, people of all ages can lack perspective or even disagree with you on the principles you’ve outlined.

      • Silly Valley

        Average life expectancy in the US is late 70s for men and early 80s for women, so late 30s *is* middle-aged for most of us, maybe a little early assuming life expectancy continues to improve (I wouldn’t be surprised if it stalled for a few years, or even went down a bit, thanks to covid and its knock-on effects).

          • Anon

            Opioids caused the most significant dip. There’s a blip of deaths particularly in white males centered around 40 (meaning that is the middle, not that most victims are 40.)

            Other than that, life expectancy has generally been increasing. There are some theories that life expectancy would have increased more quickly if not for obesity but that is difficult to prove. You can’t prove why someone didn’t die.

            And of course this year is the most extreme, extreme event to happen to mortality rates in decades. Covid is real, people.

            Signed, an actuary

        • Anon

          “Middle aged” is not a mathematical term. It’s a put-down, a “you’re old” disparagement that younger people like to use.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      I feel like the major pieces of most people’s core values and priorities are set in a particular direction by mid to late twenties. It doesn’t seem like people mature much after they hit 30 or so.

      • Anonymous

        I would have agreed with you in my 20s and I thought I was a kind person but IDK as the poster above said I think life had to happen to become an empathetic person — in my case losing a job, long term unemployment etc. I ended up being fine because my prior job had paid me significant money but I quickly realized how it must be for people to go through these things when they make 40k a year and have no cushion.

        • Aunt Jamesina

          Oh, definitely! I think going through trials can make people less black and white and more empathetic, and I see that in my own life. But I do think you have a general tendency toward empathy or any other value by your late twenties.

      • Anon

        Hmm interesting to think about. I feel like my compassion, empathy and attention to social justice has increased hugely since I turned 30. In fact, I think the 20s is a very interior-focused, navel-gazing decade when we think we have it all figured out, but are really in a bubble. I suppose core values like “love my family” and “do good for others” were things I said I believed in my 20s, but my experiences in my 30s have really grown those values.

    • Anonymous

      You’re overthinking this. Yes, some people are jerks or clueless or both. It doesn’t matter what age they are.

    • all about eevee

      Who cares? If you don’t like these non-grown ups, don’t hang out with them and move it along.

    • Anonymous

      I have actually never asked why someone with completely different life experiences and biological makeup didn’t turn out to see life exactly the way I do and value exactly the same things I do. I wouldn’t characterize that as the thinking of a fully matured and well-adjusted person. But I suspect you would have complaints if we were acquainted.

    • Anonymous

      I think you’re just saying you disagree with others core values which is okay they probably disagree with your core values too. You seem to see things from a very particular lens and others may not share that view. I’m sure lots of people think I too need to “grow up” but that will never happen, I looked at societal expectations and made decisions based on their utility which I think is a lot more than most do.

    • Thanks, it has pockets!

      That age range is not middle aged, but I do have a cousin in her 40’s who’s spent most of her adult life leeching off her parents, either living with them or living on her own but being heavily reliant on them for money and such, going to school for this or that advanced degree but then not finishing, or getting the degree and failing to make a career of it, and repeating the process a few years later. She keeps thinking her life is about to begin, and she’s gonna have all this money and this fabulous life once this next thing happens, and then it doesn’t.

      And my one big regret is not setting boundaries with her years ago. She tried so aggressively to coach, counsel, and mentor me through my 20’s and I didn’t want that, it felt super condescending and patronizing, and I come to find she wasn’t even really in a position to be giving any of that advice! I tolerated a lot of it to be respectful, but I should have said “hey, I know you mean well, I’m not looking for advice right now.” Or whatever it is. That’s all you can do, decide what relationship (if any) you want to have with someone and set the boundaries.

      But as much as you might want to, you’re not in a position to fix these people. You might want to. The people who can “fix” them are the ones who enabled them for so long, they need to be the ones to change the dynamic.

    • Seventh Sister

      Honestly, I get to deal with an entire Girl Scout service unit full of volunteers who haven’t figured out these two – “be kind to everyone it makes life more pleasant; relationships matter.”

      FWIW, I’m a younger GenXer and these women are mostly a good decade older than me. I get that some (most?) of them are pretty burned-out volunteers, but some of it is just ridiculous.

      • Anonymous

        Oh sister, I do feel you on the Girl Scout adults. Makes me happy my kid doesn’t want to do it anymore!

  9. anon for this

    Leadership of my 4K+ national company had a firmwide call yesterday. In it they announced the company had not only met, but exceeded its stretch revenue goals for 2020. Lots of talk about how amazing everyone was, how well they adapted from 100% in office to 100% at home, served our clients, yada yada. And then proceeded to whine about how 2020 has affected company culture and fun. While our work is non-essential, offices have been slowly reopening at reduced capacity since last fall, and most offices are now approaching 50%. They announced before the holidays that senior staff would all be back in office by mid-January and everyone else by Feb. 1, which quickly got pushed to March 1. Exceptions may be granted if you have “young” children or health issues. I think this is crazy and no different than people whining about not being able to spend the holidays with their extended family while being safe and healthy at home and fully employed. I really would like to push back. Is my medicated diagnosis of anxiety & depression (brought on by the pandemic) sufficient reason to push for a medical exception? I’m a senior level person but only been with this company for 2 years. I’m really feeling gaslighted by the whole thing.

    • Anonymous

      Yes, ask for a medical exemption but don’t tell them why. It’s none of their business. Your firm sucks.

      • Anonymous

        They’ll expect documentation in most cases. Just FYI. It should only go through HR and your supervisor but a company that big should have paperwork.

        • Anonymous

          Yes, there will be documentation, but OP does not have to share the reason. I did documentation through a large national HR provider that my firm contracts with and I did not have to say my diagnosis.

    • Anon

      Unbelievable. The company kicked ass with everyone working from home, and now they want everyone back in the office because…??? … when Coronavirus deaths in this country break a new record every single day.

      I’d be looking for another job because your leadership are complete idiots.

    • Rainbow Hair

      I was in a similar situation in July. Directly from the CEO: “Hey, everything is going great. RH, please start coming in one day per week.” I cried a lot about it (I have an immune compromised family member, so I’d have to be even more cut off if I did go into the office) and then the next day made my pitch to my boss: it’s been months and months and I’m doing fine; there are only a few intangible benefits to going in to the office; it’ll really eff up my daily life to have to isolate from my fam. Boss waited until he was face-to-face with the CEO to plead my case (ironic?) but secured permission for me to stay home indefinitely. I hope you have someone reasonable who can intervene for you.

  10. Anon

    Thinking about yesterday’s discussion which touched on the advantages of free/cheap university education in Europe and Canada. It’s clear these great universities don’t cater to everyone who would like to attend, and that many people, at least in Europe, are shunted to more vocational programs as early as high school age. Is this something this board wants to get behind, if it means university would be cheap or free? Would you like your kids to their options limited at younger ages if, for example, they don’t get good grades in middle school, if it means higher achievers get free university tuition? Keep in mind it’s difficult to change from the vocational to academic track there. I feel like there are tradeoffs in the European system that people might not be considering.

    • anon

      I don’t think the European system is something I would want to emulate here, at all, for the exact reasons you mentioned. It sounds extremely limiting and stifling to me. It also sort of flies in the face of the American ideal that you can always rise above your station with hard work and yadayadayada. (Not here to debate whether it’s true or not; just that the European model doesn’t exactly fit the American narrative.)

    • Anonymous

      I don’t think we should adopt the European system. It doesn’t seem fair to permanently limit peoples’ life choices on the basis of their middle school and high school grades and their performance on high-stakes tests. But we do need to reform college admissions and financing in the US. The first step is to curtail the availability of student loans, which is what’s driving tuition inflation and drowning students in lifelong debt. If colleges couldn’t include massive amounts of loans in their “aid” packages or rely on students and families to borrow to meet their EFC, they would be forced to rein in tuition.

      • anon

        +1 we need to make colleges accountable for their costs. If they weren’t able to charge whatever they wanted and have the government lend students that amount they may rethink things like new rec centers, expensive athletic programs, etc

        • Anonymous

          Athletic programs are a huge problem. Those football and basketball programs do not usually pay for themselves. At my state U alma mater, all students pay $2,000 per year to support intercollegiate athletics. That’s $8,000 in extra student loans over four years so a select handful of other students can participate in a recreational activity. Meanwhile, music majors have to pay applied music fees of $900/semester for their own private lessons, which are part of the degree requirements. If you want intercollegiate athletics, let the athletes pay for it, or find donors to support it. If your giant football or basketball program is so lucrative, split its finances from the university’s and pay the athletes.

          • Anonymous

            This. Most European universities have very very limited, if any, athletics. Certain exceptions of course like rowing at Oxford/Cambridge. But vast majority do not have US style college athletics at all. Universities are just for education.

            Canadian universities have sports teams but not near to same level. The best Canadian athletes usually aim for the US market as there are much more limited athletics scholarships in Canada. NCAA scholarships are an express goal for young Canadian hockey players who are not going direct to NHL or AHL.

          • Shelle

            But is athletics seen as a common path to college for those who can’t otherwise afford to go or don’t have a standout academic record? (I never participated in organized sports so I don’t know how common this is)

          • Anonymous

            Calling athletics a path to college is like saying a lottery ticket is a path to retirement savings.

          • Anon

            There are athletic scholarships for athletes who aren’t nationally ranked and aren’t contemplating an athletic career, so I don’t agree with that 100%

          • anonshmanon

            athletics is sold as a common path to college, but imo this is an absolute lie. The money that’s tied up in athletics is so beyond belief, even in schools that are far from competitive in the intercollegiate leagues. So 100 kids in a school of 40,000 students get a football scholarship, with 4% getting drafted by the NFL. The others obtain a college degree, which is wonderful, but I don’t see how it’s a reasonable use of school’s resources to build stadiums and pay millions to their coaches, so that 4% of 0.25% of their students can get trained for a very specific job.

          • Anon

            The problem is a lot more nuanced than that, unfortunately. Colleges are partly in the business of educating students and partly in the business of attracting the next class of students. For many high school students choosing where to apply and enroll, an active campus life and numerous extracurricular offerings are important. Kill university athletics and you’ll have a rough time getting the next round of students in, even those who have no desire to play sports.

            Many students just plain like playing sports and want to continue in college, even if college does not give them a full scholarship. Maybe sports gets them in the door and they would rather pay the same amount of money at a better school. Maybe sports gives them a small scholarship that is better than nothing and their families pick up the rest. Maybe it’s just fun for them, the same way that other students join the orchestra or a capella group.

            Moreover, athletes, fraternity/sorority members, and business people are the three biggest groups of alumni donors.

          • Anon

            I would be careful thinking of athletic scholarships as a risk free path to a free college education. My daughter was a competitive athlete throughout elementary /middle and high school and did receive recruiting offers. Ultimately she (with our input) decided not to go down that route and went to her choice of college without an athletic scholarship. I witnessed numerous families spending thousands of dollars per year for lessons, year round training, expensive travel teams all in the hope of obtaining an athletic scholarship and many of them did not succeed in receiving any scholarship. I also watched what happened to those who were five to ten years older than her and went to college on athletic scholarships. Except for a rare few, many of them went to second tier state universities far away from their families. Many also apparently did not have any idea how they would translate that degree into a job later on. I watched several of the local “successes” come back home after graduation and the only work they seem to be qualified for is a very part time job as an assistant coach in that sport. Their families would have been better off saving those thousands in a college fund.

        • anon

          It’s not just athletic programs although those are a big issue – so many colleges spend gobs of money on things that enhance the college experience. These are things I enjoyed in college – lots of clubs to participate in, new or newly renovated dorms, fancy food in dining halls (mine had sushi!), a fun pool/gym for students, etc. but in retrospect it would have been nicer to not have those things:have a poor student experience and less debt. College would be a lot more affordable if the only thing tuition paid for was the education

          • Anonymous

            Back in my day (mid-’90s) we had tuna surprise casserole for dinner, no A/C, and communal bathrooms, and we still had plenty of fun.

    • Anonymous

      I have LONG been a fan of the European system of education, trade schools, and Mike Rowe of Dirty Jobs fame. Tradespeople are so important and college isn’t the right choice for millions of people. This board overwhelmingly represents the wealthiest Americans, and many posters don’t have contact with more statistically average Americans. My neighbors down the street are thrilled that Junior is a mechanic because he’ll never, ever, ever be out of work or struggle to pay the bills.

      • Anon

        I agree but I think the point is that whether Junior is a mechanic or an engineer shouldn’t be determined by his scholastic achievement between the ages of 11-15. There’s gotta be room for the kid who is a late bloomer academically or struggling with family or personal issues at that age to still reach the upper echelons of education. Not that the current American system does that — but I would like a solution that has room for both.

      • anon

        I fully support tradespeople and agree that college isn’t right. But I also think it’s fundamentally wrong to shift kids into those tracks at such an early age, when their full potential might not be evident yet! If you’re a late bloomer, you’re SOL. I’d much prefer that people self-select into college or trades. Many of my family members are in the trades, so definitely not looking down on that as a choice. However, my very smart DH (graduated from college with honors) was kind of a mess academically until his sophomore year in high school, when he decided to get more serious about academics. I suspect he had some undiagnosed learning differences, TBH. Under the European model, he never would’ve had the chance to become college-ready.

        • Anon

          Yeah, my husband was also not academic, joined the military, then later went to college on the GI bill and graduated with a 4.0. It’s not clear to me how that model would work in the European systems.

      • anonshmanon

        This. OP, your description of people being ‘shunted’ suggests that these careers and consequently people in these careers are lesser. Not every kid will happily go to school 12 years, then study for another 5.

        But I agree of course that all education systems have their shortcomings.

        • Anon

          I’m the OP, and I didn’t mean to imply the vocational careers are lesser, just that there is much less freedom of *choice* than in the US educational system, especially taking into account that the choice might be made for you by others while you are still in your early teens (!)

          • anon

            +1 to there only being freedom of choice if you’re wealthy. Also even then how many kids go to college because their parents, teachers, etc told them to. I’m not sure why being forced into college is better than being forced into a trade

          • Anon

            OTOH, tons of US kids have no option but bad elementary schools and bad middle schools, so they would probably lose out the most by a euro-style early sorting of kids. Options aren’t great, but let’s not nail the coffin shut.

            [I went to law school and a girl in another class had 4 years of private college + 3 years of law school and became . . . a chef. Like why not just be a chef? Oh, right, people are still exploring their options and you may have no basis to know what options even are when you are younger.]

          • Anon

            It’s amusing that this conversation got started when Wednesday’s high income poster complained about saving for private college and everyone chimed in “free college would solve your problem”

          • anon

            But having free 7 years of education for someone who isn’t going to use it seems like an awful waste of resources!

          • Anonymous

            @ Anon 12:23 – I think the chef thing was an American example. First degree is usually three years in Europe and professional schools like law are direct entry not second degrees (and are like 6 years total I think). So the timeline sounds American.

          • anon

            I was using the chef example as a reason why free education in the US without tracking may be a bad thing. I personally don’t want to pay for people to be educated to be lawyers and then decide later they want to be a chef

    • Anon

      I think that Europe penalizes late bloomers, who are probably mostly boys, but could also include any kid with a learning disability (I had to get one kid screened multiple times and finally got an accurate diagnosis when the kid was 11. 11!), which we think is unfair. I know a lot of guys who admit they weren’t college ready and did a stint in the Army and came out very ready and motivated adult learner college students and got a degree in their mid-20s, which IDK if Europe would contemplate.

      Also, IIRC, unemployment in Europe is quite high in some countries, so this maybe why to me it seems that some are perpetual students. I do know that we get a lot of hard-worker J visa workers (in prior times) in a resort area near me and those kids are such hard workers and very bright and I think that the J visa is appealing only because things where they live must be quite bad.

    • Anon

      I do think that public college should priced such that a student working part time during the year and full time during the summers would be able to afford to pay tuition and living expenses — the old “working your way through college” that everyone talks about. In the early 2000s, I worked 20-30 hours a week during the semesters and 40-50 hours during the summers (all retail) and graduated with ~70k in student loans from an expensive private university (Big mistake on my part, but I was fed the myth that “financial aid” would get me through school since my family was low income. That aid turned out to have a large chunk of loans in it, something I didn’t fully understand until I actually read through the disclosures they wanted me to sign.).

      I would love a system where an 18 year old could be truly independent of their parents if they wanted to be (and were willing to live the “broke student lifestyle” to get there — not asking for riches here). As someone who came from an abusive situation and was kept locked into it by FAFSA requirements (despite family contributing no actual cash towards anything since I turned 15), this would have been a godsend. I had to endure so much just to get those FAFSAs filled out and signed on time. As an adult I know there are some ways of getting out of this requirement, but when I asked the financial aid office they told me no and acted like I was trying to scam them. Best day of my life was when I was close enough to graduation to know that wouldn’t need another FAFSA form and was able to change my cell phone number and go no contact with them. I haven’t communicated with them since turning 21 — 18 would have been much better.

    • Anonymous

      Free public education in the US without tracks. That’s what I want. It’s possible.

      • Anon

        +1

        People like Wednesday’s poster with $250K HHI who needs $280K for private college would still be stuck living in a VHCOL fixer upper, but that’s their decision

      • Anonymous

        Lack of tracking does not serve anyone well. We need tracking plus universal screening for ability in multiple grades to avoid bias in tracking decisions plus mobility between tracks plus flexibility to pursue different tracks in different subjects.

        Here is why we need tracking. As a 13-year-old, I was in the same geometry class as 18-year-olds. The pace was frustratingly slow because it had to accommodate kids who learned math very slowly and had only gotten to geometry their senior year. I was bored out of my mind, and the slow seniors still struggled. How did that help anyone?

      • Anon

        You have MOOCs at least!

        And Papa John’s and Starbucks will give you tuition for on-line schooling at Arizona State and Purdue (among others). It’s not nothing, but I’d be interested if I were a Mr. Money Moustache younger person.

        • Anony

          My MBA was paid for by Dick’s Sporting Goods (of all places) and my M.Eng was paid for by my current employer. Options for “free” degrees do exist!

    • Anonymous

      It’s a myth that it’s difficult to switch tracks. Yes, it can be difficult in high school because of the pace at which the University stream moves and the language requirements. DH’s high school BFF couldn’t hack Latin in addition to French and English (they learn three additional languages in the university stream), but even in the second stream high school, he still qualified for the engineering university and is a P.Eng for a major multinational corp. In DH’s country there are three streams – you can go to technical schools at universities (e.g. full engineering degree, accounting degree) with the first or second stream. The first stream is only necessary for like law, medicine, languages, hard sciences etc.

      There are other legitimate careers besides doctor, lawyer, business consultant. What’s wrong with a system that provides technical school educational opportunities for engineering techs, radiation techs, preschool teachers etc?

      It’s not like the free university has a cut off date. You can always upgrade later in life if you chose a path that isn’t right for you. DH’s father was an electrician (technical high school) then priest (religion degree), then high school teacher (teaching degree for business studies for a technical high school) and did his PHD in religion later life because he was interested in the subject.

      • CI

        This. Some European countries also offers opportunities for adults at any time in life, to take or re-take courses for free, that would then allow them to enroll to higher education (also free). Ex. In Sweden it’s called Komvux. I have friends that either dropped out of high school or choose trade, and later in life still went on to Uni.

    • Anonymous

      All the post secondary education is free in most of these countries not just universities. The systems there are far from perfect but they don’t have the same problems with people wasting money at poor quality schools that seem to exist in the US. Canada seems to address it by making all universities public and requiring them to meet standard to get funding. In terms of early streaming, doesn’t the US college admissions system depend a lot on your high school grades and SATs so ‘late bloomers’ can’t really get into good universities anyway?

      Some European universities are still close to American level pricey – Switzerland and UK come to mind.

      • Anonymous

        Good point about all postsecondary ed being free in those countries. In addition to reforming college finance, we need to get rid of for-profit schools that scam people trying to get a job in IT or nursing.

    • Emma

      This European just wants to remind people that Europe is composed of a large number of different countries with vastly different systems of government and education, so the notion of a single “European model” (apart from the fact that yes, post-secondary education is on average cheaper, with vast variations between countries and within different schools systems – public/private) is completely baffling to me. I also never felt as though anyone was “shunted” into trade school. My cousin went into culinary training at 16 because it was his passion and he wasn’t very academic. He has a fanstastic and well-respected career and makes more than a number of people I know with degrees. A school friend of mine went into pottery (trade school) and now has a booming fine porcelain business. I’m sure there are people who would have wanted to do something and couldn’t, and social class is still a strong determining factor in people’s outcomes, but I don’t recognize this description at all (and I say this as someone who thinks there are some really great features of the US university system).

      • Anon

        Thank you for saying this, wanted to write the same. I am another European here (representing East) and the school systems in our countries are so different (just comparing two neighboring countries like Germany and Czech republic). I will share the Central Europe perspective (Czech rep, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland). Firstly, our elementary/high school/universities are not “for free”. The public ones are financed from income taxes (which are much higher than the US ones) and private are paid by students (or by parents).
        Students are asked to choose at the age of 14 between more general education (eg lycee) and specialized school (business high school, trade school). I agree that for many, this may be too soon, but I do not agree that choosing specialized school is closing your door to university-level education. I went to business high school because I had no interest in spending 4y with extra biology/history/philosophy classes, if instead I could be learning something more useful for me (e.g. accounting, small business operations). But I still went to university after and the only limitation I faced was having to take extra math classes to pass entry test and to keep up in the first year of uni (I was not a unique case). Our system also allows students who are not interested in 6+ extra years of study to have a specialized education (vocational schools are 3-4y in my country) and launch their careers and start earning money. I think that the capacities of our schools are dimensioned in a way that enable anyone who is interested to go to a high school or university if they wish (public or private). The system also gives an option to people who are less academically interested not to waste their time in uni, instead, get specialized knowledge they need through vocational school, if they want to open their restaurant or hair salon.
        There is no perfect system and I definitely see gaps in ours. Just giving you a perspective of someone who actually lived through the “European” system.

      • Ness

        Thank you, I was going to say the same. Every time I read “European” here, people seem to forget that there are many different countries. The same for “EU”, it is not one country but 27, as different as Canada from Argentina.
        That description only fits with French system as far as I know.

    • Jeffiner

      I went to high school in one of the poorest counties in the country, in the rural Appalachians. We had a vocational school attached to our high school, that offered everything from building trades and auto mechanics to nursing and business classes. In order to graduate high school, we had to either apply to college or have a certificate of completion in a discipline from the vocational school. A lot of the college bound kids would take the traditional AP classes, but would also take vocational classes just to learn something interesting. For the non-college bound, there were actually paid vocational internships within the town, to get them a head start on a job. My high school had a very, very low drop out rate, and kids did get a choice on which path they wanted to pursue.

      In case anyone asks: It was really the only high school option in the entire county, unless someone was home-schooled. It was also primarily white.

      • Anon

        I went to high school in one of the poorest counties in Texas and we also had very strong vocational programs especially auto shop, nursing and ag. We had limited AP classes and about 15% of my graduating class went on to graduate from any 4 year college program within 6 years of graduation.

        In Texas, you can’t get a license when you’re under 18 unless you re enrolled in high school so my school always lost a lot of kids senior year as soon as they could keep their DLs. We started senior year with 330 in my class and about 280 graduated which is pretty normal for that school. It was a heavily dairy-farm focused county and kids were needed on the farm.

      • Seventh Sister

        My rural/exurban county had a vocational/technical high school. One of the benefits (even though people were very snotty about the school in general) was that you could get a trade license without the crazy debt that some of these people can rack up going to Local Beauty School or Fly-By-Night-Medical-Assistant-College.

        I wish there were more trade school options, but deciding a kid’s path in the 4th grade is the kind of thing that tends to exacerbate class stratification. I haven’t yet met an American college-educated parent who thinks their kid isn’t “college material.”

    • Anon

      STEM prof at a state school. To some extent there’s a tradeoff between cost and access (leaving out the issue of taxpayer support of universities, which is the other major reason state universities have gotten so much more expensive in recent years). At my very large school, there are some number of students that are as smart and skilled as those you’d find at any top university and they do well pretty much no matter what. However, there are also a lot of students that work really hard, but either have personal circumstances that work against them (finances, family situations, illness, etc.) or so poorly prepared that they really struggle to benefit from college course work without needing a lot of help. If we want those students to have to opportunity to get a college education, they need things like financial aid, health services, counseling, tutoring, disability services, etc. and those cost a lot because they require a lot of person hours and trained people are expensive.

      You can certainly debate whether all of those students “should” be in college- I think that a lot of them should get the chance and with help really thrive, while others are probably just ending up with a lot debt but not much better job prospects. A nontrivial portion of my students seem to be not even basically literate, which makes teaching science a real challenge- they’re not confused because they don’t understand the science I’m trying to teach, but because they can’t read well enough to understand the textbook or understand the test questions. And I have no idea how to even begin to address that.

      • Anon

        I have thought that maybe we need to make teaching a higher prestige career and give excellent teachers much more autonomy in primary education (some of the teachers I know really struggle because they could drop everything and teach students to read, but they aren’t allowed to spend class time that way in the 5th grade, and they are significantly micromanaged). I’ve also met experienced teachers pursuing advanced education degrees who struggle significantly with reading and writing.

      • Anon

        My state university offered remedial classes for this reason. However, those courses didn’t count towards a degree. For example, the university required 1-2 math courses at a certain level to graduate. We all took a placement test at orientation. Some students took a placement test and CLEPed those classes. Other students took the same placement test and were not able to even place into those classes so in some cases, had to take 2 additional classes to be able to get their basic math class done to graduate. Overall, I’m not sure how much the offering of classes like this helped. I’m sure some students were motivated and had just gone to a bad high school and pushed through, but for others, the addition of the remedial classes just added to their courseload and made it harder for them to graduate on time.

        • anon

          It seems the answer here isn’t make college financially possible for everyone but instead use those funds to improve high school education for all

    • Anon

      I thought people could pursue higher education in Europe at non-traditional ages though. I didn’t think you “aged out” of the opportunity? I know someone who just finished an MA program in mathematics as a second career, for example, in Europe.

      I think tracking can sound bad and be unfairly done, but meeting students where they are at and making sure they’re challenged and learning at all times is a good thing. Without some kind of tracking, how would we achieve this?

      I also don’t like high stakes tests as a measurement of readiness, but I don’t think academia works with absolutely open admissions and no prerequisites any more than anything else would work that way.

    • Anon

      I had the option of a very good public vocational high school or a tippity top public traditional high school. I chose the latter, ended up doing the extreme traditionalist path: ivy league > finance > MBA > consulting. But… I remember really liking my tour of the vocational school too and thinking at the time that it might have been an ok fit for me. There was absolutely a reputation that it was for less talented students and since it was a binary choice at age 14, it was a risk I wasn’t comfortable taking. I wish my high school would have offered some of those courses to juniors or seniors as career prep electives so we could have gotten exposure closer to adulthood and without a long term commitment.

      • Anonymous

        Our school district heavily pushes the vocational high school, to the wrong kids. My daughter, who opted for the IB program because she wants a science Ph.D., felt a lot of pressure to choose the vocational program and study to be an LPN or a dental hygenist. I could see a very bright kid who is college material but whose parents aren’t privileged enough to have the proper information easily get pushed onto the wrong path that way.

    • Sasha

      And there’s the additional layer of (at least in the UK) the best universities being filled by a majority of wealthy, privately educated students whose families could afford private high schools and tutors for their A levels. I think the stat is something like 20% of UK teens go to private school, but make up 50% of the student bodies of Oxford and Cambridge. Unless the US implements some kind of affirmative action program for top tier public universities, free public education is going to lead to them becoming extremely, extremely competitive and will decrease their accessibility to low income or late bloomer students. And maybe that’s a trade off we’re willing to make, but its so much more complicated than “free public university”.

    • amberwitch

      I think the conditions are very different in different Europeans countries. Yes, in Denmark you can opt for vocational school once you finish the obligatory schooling which covers ages 6-15/16. but any of the types of high school 16-19 will allow you into almost all university programs (the big question is mostly about your electives and only for a few – example, you need advanced math to be eligible for some STEM programs).

      We have several types of two year high school programs catering to the more mature student (similar to GSD?GSH? something like that), programs to upgrade your high school education (getting those pesky electives done – in my time a lot of girls who took a language heavy track found out they needed more math and physics and chemistry to become doctors or vetinarians, so they got extra student stipend to take these electives in order to qualify. it ‘delayed’ them a year, but it was no biggie).
      If you don’t have a high school degree and want to become an engineer at my alma mater, there is even a prep program that will give you access and qualifications to join any program at that university (pending grades obvs).

      Take me, I flunked out of high school because of family issues and spend a lot of years floundering, attended a number of high scools of varying flavor and ended up graduating an ‘adult’ high school at the ripe age of 24. In my class we were all sorts. Most between 20-35, but a wide variety in both age and background. I got my engineering degree very late and now works in a senior management role – got my second degree in business management last summer.

      I had a class mate who became an electrician (so trade school after high school, somewhat unusual) and later on a carpenter (a second trade school). Another who had trained as a chef went on to become an anthropologist, and is now a PostDoc.

      • amberwitch

        Oh – and I graduated with less than 5.000 $ in debt so our society invested heavily in me in those years that I struggled (I worked while studying at least). I am very grateful for the wealth of opportunities I was offered, and very few of those had any kinf of age related cut-off.

  11. What are you wearing?

    Just for fun thread!

    What are you wearing today?
    When and where did you buy it?
    How do you feel about it?

    (I’ll go in the comments)

    • What are you wearing?

      Black Athleta yoga leggings and greige Athleta sweatshirt with foldover hem, purchased at the same time in the winter of 2018.
      Old navy strap tank, purchased when I was post-partum in 2015.
      Felted wool slippers via LLBean, purchased about a month ago.
      I love all these pieces and wear them regularly! Super comfy and neither cold nor overheated for WFH.

      • Friday

        I am KICKING MYSELF for not getting wicked good slippers or felted slippers from LL Bean in October. Alas, by the time they’re restocked, it will be back to 80 degrees where I live…

        • Anon

          I ordered my felted slippers from them in mid-December and they were readily available… you might want to check back!

    • Anon

      Uniqlo heattech fleece crewneck which is the comfiest shirt I have ever owned – it’s not the usual heattech undershirt, but like a very soft fleece t shirt. Very warm but not overheating. It feels like wearing a hug.

    • anon

      BR luxespun long-sleeve tee in a gray/white stripe with a thin white tee underneath for extra warmth
      Faded black jeggings, a long ago purchase from Stitch Fix
      Minnetonka slippers

      Everything is between 2-4 years old. It’s not exciting, but I feel cozy and comfortable?

    • Anonymous

      The pajamas I slept in last night, because I am not leaving this chair until my grant proposal is done. Back to work now.

        • Anonymous

          Thanks! Got that one in, showered, now wearing joggers and a long-sleeved tee and working on the other proposal that’s due next week.

    • anon

      Jeans and white tshirt from J Crew. St. John jacket in a crazy bright pattern which is at least 15 year old that I inherited from my mother. This is something I’ve worn before (to work, no less) and I like it. It feels strange to wear a jacket while working in the basement but I feel better when I dress up a bit.

      • Anon

        How warm is St. John? In my mind, I like that it is stretchy and yet seen as polished. I might start stalking consignment stores. I inherited a few pieces when a friend’s mom retired (but not jackets) and have liked them (but they are currently irrelevant in my life).

        • anon

          I would put the warmth level between a cotton and wool sweater. I couldn’t find a fabric mark on the jacket but would assume it’s at least a good percentage polyester (which I don’t generally find warm). The knit itself is pretty thick which I think makes up for it.

        • Anonymous

          So, St.John has different weight weaves for summer and winter wear. Check the tag to see if wool is listed first, if so then it’s likely a winter weave.

          • anon

            Interesting! For Anon955, I couldn’t find the fabric content (label probably fell out) but I would guess it’s a summer weave because of the colors.

    • Ribena

      Forest Green and white striped Breton
      Navy corduroy dungaree dress with white polka dots
      Casual brown cashmere cardigan (nicer than it sounds).

      One of my usual ‘looks’ is “trying to be a kids TV presenter” and it appears to be one of those days.

      • Ribena

        Oh and black leggings, hand knit pink socks, and slippers with penguins on them. Styling it out in 2021….

      • pugsnbourbon

        I wore a striped shirt with overalls and joked on FB that I was about to go film the pilot of a kids’ TV show. Several of my friends, god bless them, didn’t realize I was making fun of myself and offered congratulations. I decided it was a compliment and happily wear the same outfit on repeat.

      • Brunette Elle Woods

        That does not sound like a WFH outfit! I’m in PJ pants and a sweater. Barefoot with a blanket.

        • Ribena

          I’m still wearing jeans two or three days a week! Dressing like a student, I guess? I work out first thing and want to put on proper clothes after I shower.

    • Anon

      Halogen cashmere crewneck sweater, purchased in 2015 and mended on the elbow where it busted through a year ago
      Gap jeans, purchased in 2019 (on every other day rotation with my one other pair of jeans since we went to WFH)
      Ugg boots circa 2005 which have become my slippers since they are just SO comfortable

      I feel very comfortable and cozy! Love dressing casually every day now that I’m at home.

    • Anon

      Zella joggers. I wear them every single day.
      Gap long-sleeved t-shirt.
      Ugg slippers.
      I’m a comfy slob.

    • Anon

      Black old navy leggings (their powder soft leggings are my favorites)
      White loft T
      Grey loft drapey cardigan (with pockets!) that I actually bought at Goodwill for $5
      Funky gold colored hoops from a local boutique
      Gold plated necklace of a landmark in my city
      Kirkland brand wool hiking socks

      Everything is a few years old and the total cost was probably $35 (excluding the jewelry – all gifts so I’m not sure). The black leggings / white T / fun sweater is my go to wfh look. I counted and I have 18 sweaters (it feels like a TON but it probably isn’t) so I’m taking advantage and wearing all of them in rotation when working from home.

    • Anon for this

      A 1993 Suburban League Swim Championships long sleeved tee that I stole from my husband from when he was a kid, high waisted Loft jeans (purchased Feb 2020), and Darn Tough socks which are at least 10 years old (now that I think about it!) and have been worn roughly a zillion times and are still great.

      Accessorizing with a 2 year old who is attempting to physically attach herself to me and if I do anything but let her, she screams like a banshee.

      Stuffy noses in a pandemic are fun!

    • anonymous

      Grey “New York or Nowhere” sweatshirt (Saks, purchased about 4 years ago),
      black tank top (Gap, purchased this year),
      blue sleep shorts with flowers (Old Navy, purchased this year),
      Ugg slippers.

      And no, I will not be accepting any video calls today.

    • PNW

      I’m wearing my brown suede Great Northwest heeled loafers that I got over 11 years ago (based on job I had at the time) and which I still get compliments on. They make me feel awesome, like kicking ass and taking names kind of awesome.

      • PNW

        Also Old Navy jeans and a thin sweater I bought online from Lane Bryant that I haven’t decided if I like or not yet.

      • Curious

        I just like my jeans!!! They are comfy. I don’t know what type of tight awful jeans people who hate jeans wear.

      • Anonymous

        Same. The best thing about WFH is no jeans. Maybe I would feel differently if you could actually buy jeans that aren’t jeggings or high-waisted monstrosities.

      • anon

        My grandfather wore dress pants and a colored shirt for casual wear (work was suit and tie). As a 43 year old jeans wearer I now completely understand where he was coming from. (I feel naked and undressed in leggings, although I love the look.)

      • Anon

        I agree! I barely tolerate jeans in real life!

        My roommate wfh in jeans and actual shoes and I do not understand it!!!

      • Kitten

        +1
        Maybe I’m weird but even suiting pants are more comfortable to me than jeans. Lately I don’t even want to wear tight leggings so it’s always shorts or joggers/sweatpants for me.

      • Brunette Elle Woods

        I basically live in pj pants and hoodies and workout clothes. I have no idea how I’m going to get used to real clothes again and uncomfortable shoes. Today is also the first time over worn a bra since NYE.

      • Anon

        I’m in pajamas right now but I also wear jeans for WFH. I like the levi stretchy skinny jeans that have been featured here more than once. They’re like $30, slightly thicker than leggings, which makes me feel more covered up, and no less comforable than leggings. I have like 5 of them now, though I try to get two wears per pair before washing.

        • Anonymous

          I find that those feel too tight, even though they’re stretchy. I have larger calves and they feel positively strangled in those.

    • Pomme-Grenade

      Gap Pure black legging bought back in April 2020
      Aritzia Babaton green shirt with 3/4 sleeve bought 3 years ago
      Ugg slippers bought 5-6 years ago
      Nothing very exciting but very comfortable. We have no meeting on Friday policy in my department and it’s my more productive day of the week.

    • NY CPA

      NYDJ Marilyn cut jeans — The one and only cut of jeans that always looks great on me. I don’t even bother trying other styles anymore. I think this particular pair are a year or so old.
      Black long sleeve tee with velvet polka dots purchased from Loft 1-2 years ago
      LLBean Wicked Good Slippers

    • TheElms

      -Target black bootcut leggings from circa 2014
      -Gap grey and white stipe t-shirt from 2019 that I think is a nursing shirt
      -Loft grey long open cardigan with pockets from 2018 or 2019

      This is a its almost laundry day outfit and I’m not leaving the house/ no zoom outfit. I should probably throw out the leggings because they are too long for me and no longer stay up that well in the waist, but they are really comfy. I love the Loft cardigan because its probably the softest sweater I own but its pilling really badly and I’ve snagged it. But so comfy. Hence these are the “laundry day” clothes.

    • JustmeintheSouth

      Black JCrew jeans,
      Fair Isle sweater from Draper James, Ivory with red print, black trim
      Black boots La Canadianne

      a Happy outfit, jeans are comfortable

    • KS IT Chick

      Lee boot-cut jeans, Lands End silky tee, Lands End zip-front cardigan, 2Blind Brothers thermal socks, Ugg slippers.

    • Anonymous

      Sweatshirt with the letters “FAUCI,” Vuori joggers, fuzzy socks, Sorel furry slippers. Could this be a look on The Mom Edit?

    • Anon

      Wow, I am wearing a pair of Zella leggings, a pajama top, and a purple LL bean sweatshirt. I wore it all yesterday, except for my socks. Haven’t had time yet to change after getting up, getting my kid ready, packing lunch, doing the daycare drop-off, and running to my first meeting. Need to go get dressed.

    • Vicky Austin

      Plain navy turtleneck, Talbots last November
      Jeans, American Eagle early in the Unprecedented Times
      Socks, Smartwool Christmas gift from my parents
      Snow boots, Sorels I bought myself two years ago

      I kind of feel like I’m in the 80s with just a plain dark turtleneck and jeans, lol. But I like it!

    • Anonymous

      Pajama pants that belonged to my late aunt, an LL Bean T-shirt that someone here recommended (thanks for that!), and a fleece sweatshirt I got in 8th grade. It’s some no-name brand and it’s held up beautifully.

    • givemyregards

      Gap jeans purchases in… 2019? maybe? But never worn and rediscovered during a COVID closet cleanout to be my most comfortable/surprisingly flattering pair.
      Patagonia t-shirt purchased from a ski shop on clearance in 2014
      Patagonia sweatshirt that was a 2017 christmas gift that I will WEEP when it wears out because it’s so comfortable and slightly structured so it looks slightly nicer than my usual hoodie

      I feel pretty good about it I guess? To the commenter bewildered at people wearing jeans for work from home: I definitely start the workday in my pajamas, then after my morning/lunch workout I usually switch to jeans. If I wear something without a waistband, I tend to slowly expand… which is totally fine! But not what I’m going for at the moment.

    • Anonymous

      Black St. John ponte knit pants, silver Antonio Melani at Dillard’s silk tank, grey Lafayette 148 open weave sweater. St. John (final sale ages ago, my dry cleaner put a death notice on them this cycle); Dillard’s (2018); Gilt (2019). Bare feet and then plastic flip flops. We will be celebrating surviving another week in the pandemic by playing freezer fish roulette and pairing it with wine on sale at RueLala!

    • ollie

      Everlane cotton turtleneck in dark olive, purchased a few months ago and black straight-leg yoga pants of unknown origin from a few years back. The pants are super comfy but generally don’t leave the house, and the turtleneck is polished enough for a video call (would definitely wear it with nicer bottoms once I’m back in the office). I have to interview a summer associate candidate this afternoon so I may add a blazer or jardigan for that, but it’s not necessary.

    • Anony

      An IRO gray-tone camo, distressed sweatshirt and Lululemon black leggings, both purchased last year, secondhand from ThredUp. Plus LL Bean fur-lined boot slipper things that were a Christmas gift from a few years ago. Totally comfortable!

    • Anon

      J Crew cashmere animal print crew neck sweater from one of the crazy 70% off sales last year
      Magenta The Skirt from Halogen, several years old

      I still wear office clothes when I work from home – I have two kids, and dressing differently during work hours helps me mentally to separate ‘work time’ from ‘home time’ – also helps (albeit minimally) to encourage the kids to respect that mom is working and not able to play during certain hours of the day. Also, since I’m the only person at the exec level with young kids at home – maintaining the office / professional appearance for video calls etc. helps push back on the mommy-tracking.

    • Friday

      After a week of wearing joggers and flannel, I chose a linen dress. It’s sunny and 57 today.
      Prana (from Backcountry) on sale a few weeks ago.
      I’m bonkers about it – so cute, comfy and easy. Trying to make myself wear more dresses this year since they make up 3/4 of my closet (no I don’t have a problem, why do you ask?)

    • Sloan Sabbith

      Blue target v-neck t-shirt.
      Costco dupe for Barefoot Dreams cardigan, black.
      Purple/grey Zella soft pocket joggers.
      Ugg slippers.

      My WFH uniform.

    • Anon

      hahahaha be careful what you wish for

      I’m wearing black Soma Cool Nights pajama bottoms in XXL + long inseam because god forbid anything touch me. A black Soma Cool Nights cami that I’ve had for at least ten years. My “PJ” cardigan, a boyfriend cardigan in pink that is too pilled for any other use. A pink and gray long scarf that was way too expensive at the boutique up the street to cover my decolletage. A velvet scrunchie. Baby Yoda socks. Birkenstock clogs. Bad breath. And there you have it!

      I will get dressed and usually do before I start working/browsing etc, but today I had an early zoom call where I knew screens would be off. I will be having breakfast and showering directly after.

    • Anon

      Black high waisted, straight leg jeans from Express, purchased on deep discount this summer (maybe it’s because I can’t afford Lululemon but I don’t understand the love for leggings – on my pear shaped plus size body they flip down, ride up, highlight exactly which kind of underwear I’m wearing, leave me with no where to tuck my phone, can only be worn once before being washed… I’ll tolerate them for exercise but not for day wear)
      A black and white striped turtleneck from Loft, probably two years old
      A black sweatshirt with a Desmond Tutu quote (“If you are neutral in situations of injustice you have chosen the side of the oppressor”) that I bought from Wicked Clothes right after the 2016 presidential election (they’ve since stopped carrying their “feminism” line). No scheduled meetings today and if I get an unexpected video call from a client I’ll probably pull the sweatshirt off before answering.
      A furry blanket I got as a gift last Christmas
      I’m comfy, cozy, and happy.

    • amberwitch

      Fire engine red asymmetrical dress with an enormous draped neckline – bought in Barcelona in 2006
      Candystriped tights in red-pink-blue – bought … somewhere … probably over 20 year ago
      Black-grey-red boxer boots – bought in Amsterdam in 2005

    • Senior Attorney

      BR high waisted flare jeans, bought probably last year online. I love them and I feel some kinda way because until the pandemic my one ironclad rule was “no denim at the office.”

      J Crew silk blend short sleeve sweater in maroon. Bought it online at deep discount to go with the other eleventy-million colors in which I already had it, and it was just delivered yesterday. It’s soft and lightweight and pretty much the perfect work top for me.

      White silk scarf with different color hearts, bought on vacation in Italy two years ago at Comptoir Des Cottoniers. It makes me happy and horribly sad, all the same time.

      My super fave shiny silver loafers, bought online at Nordstrom a couple/few years ago. They always make me happy.

      • Senior Attorney

        Oh, and navy J Crew barn jacket, new this year. I like it so much I bought it in two colors. Again, not something I would ever have worn to work pre-pandemic.

    • Anonymous

      Parent of a four-month old.
      Olive Lululemon leggings, purchased in the fall
      Gray nursing cami
      Black cross-front nursing sweater, purchased in the fall
      Black Rothys sneakers, purchased in 2019
      Leopard print mask
      I like this outfit a lot for casual athleisure, the color scheme feels very put together and the top works for zoom calls.

      • Anon

        Ohhhh I miss having babies in the house. Those sweet little downy heads. The toothless grins. Just carrying their little diapered butt around, all snuggly. I know it’s a lot of work, I haven’t forgotten that! But enjoy it. I envy you.

        Someday those sweet babies turn into surly teens… at least my 6’2” 200 lb HS senior still likes to hug his mama. (But not always) He was the sweet little baby who needed to be carried all the time. I still see him that way, don’t tell him I said that!

        • Senior Attorney

          Heh sometimes I still see my 34-year-old licensed psychotherapist that way! (He’d say “how do you feel about that?”)

    • Seafinch

      One of my favourite finds of 2020. My best friend insisted I go try on a $30 Joe Fresh shawl collar tunic dress. Looks like nothing special on the hanger but has amazing seaming and is incredibly flattering and is in a weird textured sweat shirt material that is business casual appropriate. I bought it in black and burgundy. I wore the burgundy one today with dark mustard wool tights and a burnt orange wool infinity scarf and Blundstones. Very autumnal and cosy for a run into the office and a Costco shop.

    • Rainbow Hair

      I’m excited to answer because it’s so peak WFH!

      — a Lands End dress – blue floral, bought in 2016.
      — home sewn leggings (finished yesterday, fabric purchased mid 2020) that say “BACK OFF” in huge white letters on a black background, and in no way ‘go with’ the dress but no one is seeing below the waist
      — I feel great and comfyAF

    • Thanks, it has pockets!

      I have a red surplice DKNY top from Macy’s, I bought it in . . . I wanna say mid 2018, in an effort to buy workwear that a) fit better and b) looked a little more professional than what I’d been wearing. It’s one of my favorite work tops, it’s super comfortable and flattering, and I have the same one in blue which I love even more.

      I’m also wearing Victoria’s Secret yoga pants that I got maybe a year or so ago, they’re a little worn out but still super comfortable and great for working from home.

  12. Sodastream?

    Talk to me about Sodastreams – I have a La Croix problem and would like to find something more sustainable. I don’t really like unflavored seltzer but flavored seltzer is definitely a mixed bag. If you’re a flavored seltzer addict, did the Sodastream do anything for you?

    • Lily

      I love my soda stream. I got the one-touch (which I think is the mid-range option). I don’t buy flavors, but I often fill my glass with 1/3 lemonade, cranberry juice, or other juice, and then top it off with seltzer, and it’s delicious. If I had more time/was less lazy, I would muddle fruits, cucumber, etc. in a glass and then top off with seltzer. I like super fizzy water so I use the highest setting, which obviously means we go through the CO2 refills more quickly, but I think we still get a month out of each one, which is way cheaper than buying lacroix, and I’m so glad to not be going through so many cans anymore.

    • Anon

      Big Sodastream fan – we got one years ago and are still using it daily. (The old “source” model) We just drink the unflavored water now, without adding any flavors, although we used lots of flavors at the beginning as we were coming off of LaCroix and Diet Coke. We go through a canister about every 4 weeks, and they’re $15 in my area, so a little less than $5 a week. I don’t think it’s saving the money that we originally thought, but the waste has certainly been reduced. Over five years, we have rotated through the same 5 water bottles and just pour into our glasses, so no waste.

    • givemyregards

      Love the sodastream – I mostly drink it plain, but sometimes add a splash of juice to give it a little more flavor (I don’t mess with any of the concentrated flavorings, so can’t speak to those). I have the slightly fancier model (cannot remember what it is) that has a glass carafe and I much prefer my parent’s cheaper model with the plastic bottle. After a few years, it’s getting harder to open our machine, which is a pain, and their more simple version works a lot better.

    • Anon

      No, not for me and I bought it for the same reason. I barely use it and I’m still buying a case of Spindrift every week.

      • Anony

        Because there is no seltzer on the planet that is better than Spindrift! I have a case of 24 Lemon on auto-subscribe from Spindrift direct (used to be Amazon but they kept losing the package or the box would arrive empty because the case had fallen out).

        • Anon

          I didn’t know you could buy just one flavor! I pick it up at Costco each week and that is likely not going to change, but I wish I could just get lemon!

          • Anony

            Spindrift’s website offers a 24-pack of each flavor they have, which is like 8 or something at this point, or a variety pack. If you subscribe, you get free shipping so it’s $24 for 24 I believe; and you can choose every 14 days, or 30, etc. Amazon is only $17ish for 24 but like I said, every other month I wouldn’t actually receive it or it would be out of stock. My local Hannaford is always OOS and Spindrift has turned me into such a seltzer snob, that I must always have it so auto-delivery it is!

      • Anon in Dallas

        Is it just too much trouble or do you not like the flavor as a replacement for your Spindrift?

        • Anon

          I don’t like the flavor. It’s really no trouble at all, but it doesn’t taste the same, I think mostly because the carbonation is not the same. It’s not nearly as carbonated as seltzer you can buy at the store.

          • Anon

            The key to carbonation is starting with really cold water. I’m the one with an older model above, so I can’t speak to what is in stores now. But we keep our pre-filled water bottles in the coldest part of the fridge, and then carbonate them to the highest setting. (Ours isn’t a button, you hold down the lever as long as you want.) That gets a MUCH more carbonated drink than if we use cold water out of the tap.

  13. Crazy?

    I live in SF Bay Area in a condo… VVVHCOL. Our total monthly housing cost is $6K, now it’s $5K due to refi. In 3-5 years, the goal is to sell the condo and buy a better condo or single family home in either SF/surrounds, San Diego, or LA. The locations I prefer, even now, cost $1.5m or more. I’m trying to see how much we can stretch our budget because I really want to live in a nice 3/2 house (or 2/1 in SF), with a great yard or deck, a garage, and in a handful of walkable, established neighborhoods. I’d be willing to consider a duplex or triplex outside of SF if the rent will cover 50%+ of the mortgage + property taxes.

    On to the question: would it be crazy for even contemplating stretching on a $1M+ mortgage?? I’ve been quite conservative financially but there is no place on the west coast that fills the your home price < 3x income best practice. We plan to retire at 60 with the mortgage paid off. So we’d need to pay off the home in 20 years instead of 30.

    We’re 35. We have $850K saved for retirement and $150K in cash. No debt except for mortgage. We’ve made ~$300K-$350K a year for the past 3 years and as long as we keep our jobs, we’ll make ~$350K-$450K a year depending on RSU vesting for the next 3-4 years. In 3 years, we’ll probably have $1.2M saved for retirement, and another $150K in cash. We can roll over $400K in equity from condo.

    We probably won’t have kids. At some point we’d be fine doing a reverse mortgage if it makes sense. Top financial goal is to retire at 62 with $150K at 3.5% withdrawal and a paid off house.

    • Anonymous

      No it wouldn’t be crazy it doesn’t even sound like much of a stretch. You already have the down payment saved, when you buy you’ll have 300k in cash savings and 400k in equity, and you’re really high earners. I think you can easily afford this. Congrats! You are not middle class lol

      • Anon

        +1 agreed.
        I’m in NYC and I get the VHCOL thing. If I had your income + savings, I wouldn’t hesitate to spend that much on a home. I know people with similar-ish incomes and 2 kids who have homes priced like that.

    • Anon

      I will say that I see 30YOs do this in my MCOL city (I’m an Old and cannot fathom that; I remind myself that there are more buyers for a $500K house than a $1M house should I ever need or want to sell). I guess the thing with a house is that if you buy a good location, you can always change your mind, no? And in the meantime, you have a place to live. If you buy more house than neighborhood, getting out of the house might be harder.

    • Anon

      I think all the conventional guidance goes out the window when A. real estate prices are that high, B. you have significant savings already, which gives you a decent amount of flexibility to cut back on this in the future if you need to, and C. you aren’t planning on having kids, which means you don’t need to budget for daycare or college savings and other expenses that come with kids. Run the budget and if you can make the payments with plenty of budget for maintenance and taking into account some change in salary in the future then you should go for it. If you make a lot of money and want to spend it on a nice house in a nice place instead of on other things, I don’t know why you shouldn’t do that. Just make sure you’re clear on all potential expenses and be sure that’s the choice you want to make.

    • Anon

      It makes financial sense given your future plans. But it will also be interesting to see how the market shakes out. SF is already oversaturated, more tech companies are moving HQs or new campuses to other states, and working from home for technology focused companies will become way more prevalent. And foreclosure and eviction moratoriums will end soon. SF prices may stagnate or drop, so you may actually get more bang for your buck in the near future.

      • Anonymous

        I also wonder whether real estate values will drop in the Bay Area over the next few years because of the tech exodus/WFH.

        • Nesprin

          Speaking from across the bay (near Montclair in Oakland), purchase prices downtown are dropping and in my neck of the woods/the rest of the exurbs prices are going up. Everyone is realizing that they’d really like an office/backyard during the plague times- I do expect this trend to reverse within the yr

      • Anon

        I think this is very overhyped. I live here and haven’t seen any real evidence to support a crash. Many Bay Area realtors had their best year last year. The only spot where’s there’s a dip is in the 1 bedroom rentals.

        • Anon

          +1 maybe SF proper will have some issues (not even sure about that), but I’m in the Bay Area (not SF) and houses are still selling in days etc etc. That doesn’t mean it will always stay that way, but with the IPO market recently there has been a substantial amount of money printed lately for local cos. and not all of those beneficiaries will leave the area. Among other reasons.

        • Anon

          I’ve lived and been a homeowner in the Bay Area for 30+ years and everyone loves to talk about when the market will eventually crash and homes will be worth what homes go for in rural Iowa. Hasn’t happened yet. Even the big 2008 crash mainly affected values in far out suburbs. I’m close in and didn’t take a hit at all.

      • Anonymous

        Right now condo prices are down and SFH prices are up. Socketsite has really good data on the SF market, but not for the burbs.

        • Anonymous

          OK yeah, missed that. With that information, I think it’s fine. I wouldn’t consider the SF Bay Area to be a super safe bet for real estate like it was in the past, but it will probably stay high-value ENOUGH.

    • Anon

      There’s never a better time than the present. You should be looking now, while interest rates are at historic lows. It will make a HUGE difference in what you can afford.

      I’m also in the Bay Area. 20 years at about your age we streeeeetttttched from our 2br/1ba tiny house to our current larger house and were paranoid for a good while, but now it’s a comfortable monthly payment for us and we are so glad we did it. We were definitely house poor for a year or two, and that’s just the reality in the Bay Area. People from other areas just don’t get this.

      One word of advice, even though you plan to pay your mortgage off in 20 years, get a 30 year mortgage. You want to have the flexibility to pay the minimum when something else happens (and it will) in any given month, and pay the extra down on your own schedule. I could currently pay off my remaining mortgage with my savings, but they are invested and are doing so much better than my extremely low, tax-deductible mortgage interest rate, we just keep not paying it off.

    • Rainbow Hair

      I’ve only ever owned in one place so I’m far from an expert, but what does “established neighborhood” mean?

      • IMO

        Older neighborhoods with trees and homes that are well-maintained and interesting architecturally, proximity to city amenities. Think Los Felix, Silver Lake in LA. Inner Richmond or Pac Heights in SF, Normal Heights or Kensington in San Diego.

    • Anon

      I live in SF and I believe with those numbers you can afford to buy a house here with a yard or deck and a garage. I live in Bernal, and buying was one of the best decisions my DH and I ever made. Buy sooner rather than later if you possibly can.

  14. Anon

    Skinny jeans and booties — what is current? Yesterday I wore skinny medium-dark denim jeans and a medium-tan pair of suede 1″ heeled Sorel booties with an almond toe (comfy, waterproof, good walking shoe with ribbed rubber soles). Something just didn’t seem quite right or current.

    Is straight leg more current (with leg falling over bootie top)? Cuff up the skinny jeans (I think no, but something is bugging me). Nothing was really wrong, but it struck me as a C+/B- look but I’m not sure what would step this up.

    I have some boot-cut jeans, but I’m short and I think that the hem would drag on most with a 1″ heel (2″ heel would be fine, but my feet are so used to no-heels that I wouldn’t pull this out absent a place to see and be seen (Harris Teeter would qualify these days)).

    • Anonanonanon2

      I’ve noticed that brown booties seem to have trended more toward the “let’s all pose with wavy hair extensions and plaid ponchos and wide brim hats at the pumpkin patch together” look? A little more… suburban? whereas black booties seem to be more in trend. I think still with skinny jeans is fine. I cuff mine if they aren’t ankle length but to each their own I suppose

      • Cat

        lol, yes exactly.

        The ‘cool girls’ are wearing higher waists and looser legs, cropped, almost like the equivalent of jean culottes.

        I, not being a ‘cool girl’ and liking the versatility of skinny jeans as far as choice of footwear, am wearing mine with cute street sneakers or tucked into black mid-calf lace-up boots. But I’ve always disliked booties (short legs) and never bought a pair to begin with.

    • Anon

      The “cancel skinny jeans” movement is driven by Gen Z marketers who understand that they haven’t been through that jeans drag on the ground phase because they’ve been in lockdown since the bootleg/bell bottom trend started. Because of their utility skinny jeans are now a wardrobe staple and will be for decades, but are now trending more “wearing skinny jeans because my shoes require it” – like booties or tall boots.
      That said, thick tights (like flannel lined) and straight leg are more in style than skinny jeans.

    • Anon

      Skinny jeans are not fashionable anymore, unless it’s skintight faux leather pants/tights. Booties are fine, and black is the most fashionable at the moment. Boot cut is not exactly in, but definitely better than skinny jeans. What’s in now is high-waisted cotton/wool pants that are very long and wide, cuff or not cuffed, paired with a masculine loafer, and a skin tight long sleeve top that is tucked in.

        • Anonymous

          Really? Maybe I’m not picturing the right thing, but wide pants with a fitted top sounds pretty good to pear-shaped me.

          • Anon

            Pear here. Fitted tops really show how tiny my upper body is (in addition to being pear-shaped, I am really high-waisted). I could rock this look about as good as a T. Rex could.

        • Anonymous

          Worse, I am a short-legged, long-torsoed pear who is prone to ankle sprains. Trends of the early aughts were not kind to me. High-waisted skinnies are my Cold Dead Hands garment.

      • Anon

        Yeah and so this is why many women are just tapping out of following fashion entirely. The vast majority of women I know would look terrible in wide pants worn with flat loafers and a skintight shirt. Like if you are 25 and 5’10” and a size 6 at most and have never had a baby, that look probably works well. For everyone else, no way. So, most of us who are not Instagram influencers trying to make a living off of posting our OOTD have decided that looking “current” is not a thing to care about. I like to look nice and relatively fashionable but trying to stay on top of fashion, which changes every five seconds depending on which influencers are getting the most likes or retweets, is an exercise that is high investment for low emotional reward. Also not very sustainable, financially or environmentally.

        • anon

          THANK YOU. I want to look nice but I am just over fashion. It’s fickle, expensive, and usually doesn’t suit me anyway.

        • Anon

          I’m not 25, but I’m 5’10 and size 6 and wide pants with flat loafers would not be a good look on me. Yuck

        • Anon

          Yes I’m so over having to replace perfectly good clothes because they look dated. I wish I could be magically immune to the influence of fashion but I haven’t fully escaped it yet, not for lack of trying.

        • Ellen

          I agree. Too many older women still try and look 21 years old with skinny jeans even tho they’ve since put on 35 pounds and have a tuchus that rivals a tuchus of a 60year old truck driver with IBS. That is why I am very careful about what I wear even in the pandemic!

    • Anon

      I went to check out The Mom Edit, which I see as more for comfy casual looks and not just for moms. At any rate, they show wider-leg pants with quirky clog-type boots and chunky heels. Sort of like an art-teacher scandinavian vibe? I like it. I think I’ve got stuff to shop my closet first and try to make some updated looks.

      It has also make me want to order another black turtleneck sweater. I could be Steve Jobs (but they are practical!).

      • Anon

        I live in Berkeley and that is a look that has never gone out of style here. It’s not right for me, but I’m very used to seeing it on all my fellow moms.

        • Anonymous

          The look has never gone out of style? How long has it been in style to begin with? Based on the laws of bougie mom fashion diffusion I assume it started in Brooklyn around three years ago? It still hasn’t hit my SEUS suburb, at least not that I can tell from watching people walk through the grocery store parking lot while I’m waiting for curbside pickup.

          I love the look if the jeans fit right, which is tricky. I am hesitant to invest in jeans and boots right now, though, since I have nowhere to wear them.

    • anon8

      I stopped wearing boot cut jeans years ago due to the heels issue. I had multiple pairs hemmed for various heel heights. Then I embraced skinny jeans and never looked back. I don’t like wearing heels any more so I’m gonna keep wearing my skinnies.

  15. anon

    I’m looking at replacing my 17-year-old everyday dishes, which are chipped and have seen better days. What are your favorites? Bonus if they stack well and aren’t super heavy. I’d prefer something other than plain white.

    • Anon

      Gotta plug Fiestaware. I have a full set in cream and I love those dishes. They can be heavy, but they are durable like crazy and hard to break (I’ve dropped bowls and plates on our tile kitchen floor and only chipped them). They have lots of colors to choose from, and most places that sell Fiesta let you mix and match, you can buy place settings or you can just buy the pieces you know you’ll use, in whatever colors you like. Their website shows all of the colors/patterns they make but it’s usually cheaper to buy it elsewhere.

      • anon

        My mom has Fiestaware, and I do like them a lot. Just wondering if they’re too fancy for using with kids. ;)

        • Anon

          They’re our everyday dishes so they don’t seem fancy to me :-) I have a kid and even he cannot break the Fiestaware. Bonus, if a piece does break replacements are not expensive or hard to find. Our “fancy” china is the stuff I inherited from my grandma that we have to hand-wash because it’s hand-painted with metallic accents.

      • Senior Attorney

        Another Fiesta lover. They are virtually indestructible and can go in the microwave and oven. You can pick a color you like or just mix and match.

    • Anon

      I know they usually bring up thoughts of those weird gold/brown bordered plates from the 80s, but Corelle 100%. Lightweight, tons of designs to choose from, and can take a serious beating.

        • Anon

          They don’t chip and they are very resistant to breaking, but when they do break, holy cow do they ever break. They shatter into a million tiny pieces!

      • Anon

        I switched from my discontinued Johnson Brothers stoneware that chipped and was increasingly expensive to replace to Corelle. Everyone can stick it in the microwave, leave it on the floor in their bedroom (yes I have teenagers, why do you ask?), leave it soaking overnight, throw it in the dishwasher, and generally mistreat it. I have never looked back.

        I kept the stoneware for nicer dinners or times when it would be nice to have a heavier plate, like when we have steaks or something.

    • Clementine

      Williams-Sonoma Brasserie blue banded dishes. Heavy, yes, but also take a beating.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      I have plain white bone china that I love, although it’s been discontinued (Macy’s Hotel line). Bone china is actually pretty sturdy, lightweight, and stacks easily. As long as it doesn’t have metallic detailing it can go in the dishwasher and microwave. We’ve had ours almost a decade and have only had one piece break after I dropped it on ceramic tile. While I use it for everyday, it’s also easy to dress up.

      • Anonymous

        +1 to bone china. Mine is going on 20 years and I’ve only lost rice bowls, and my mother’s set is on 50 and even having gone through my brother and I and now our combined five boys, she has almost the full set. It really takes a beating.

  16. donor advised fund?

    Does anyone have experience with creating a donor-advised fund to do their charitable donations? I don’t quite understand the impact it might have on my taxes.

    I am not exactly rich but I make six figures and could give about $5000 a year to charity, but right now my giving depends on the year. I don’t think I would be able to contribute enough to it to have an advisor advising on what investments to make in it.

    The two platforms I’ve looked at (Fidelity + Schwab) both charge 0.6%, which maybe isn’t terrible, but I’m just making donations out of cash now, which has no fees at all (though I guess there’s always inflation).

    If I’m giving the same amount per year to/through the DAF vs just from my savings account, does it really make enough of a tax difference to bother?

    • Anon

      I contributed to a DAF the last year before the tax law changed because it was the last year I would itemize my taxes and I had a lot of extra cash around. It only makes sense to do it now if you’d want to make a big lump sum donation so that you can itemize and take the deduction all in one year and them pay out over a few years. If you don’t pay a ton in mortgage interest and the max in SALT taxes to make it worth itemizing instead of taking the standard deduction, this probably isn’t worth it.

    • Anonymous

      I would recommend it if you plan to front-load it for charitable donations in subsequent years, or want to use it for a larger gift in the future and are testing out the mechanics. For example, like Anon above said, if you donate enough one year that itemization makes sense, you can then make distributions out over a longer period of time (i.e., put in $20k in year one, itemize and get the deduction that year, and make $5k gifts for the next four years). We see them for clients with one-time substantial tax bills, or for those who are thinking really long term, and plan to give assets at death to the DAF and are using it more like a charitable HSA during life. You should also look at local Community Foundations (usually geographic to a City/County, depending on size) which may have lower fees or more personal services. I don’t know that a DAF is essential for you, with these facts.

  17. Non-athlete

    What’s a non-embarrassing time for a healthy young person to complete a 5K?

    I’m completely unathletic, but a few months ago, I somehow took up running, and actually kind of like it (despite a lifetime of considering the idea of running when there’s not something chasing you to be basically insane). My employer, a regionally-large non-profit, does a marathon/half-marathon/5K as a big fundraiser each spring. Right now, I’m running (breaking to walk at least every 5 minutes) that in about 38 minutes.

    I can easily meet the actual qualifications for it, and they say walkers are welcome. Because of the nature of this business, I assume that there will be a number of participants who are older or have health problems. But if I’m going to do it, I’d like to be sure I won’t be finishing with a lot of people twice my age or otherwise looking as crazy out of shape as I might. What should be my time goal here?

    • Anonymous

      Run your own race, in this and all other things. If it takes you 38 minutes, congratulations! If you get a PR and it’s 30, also congratulations! You can run a 5k and that’s an amazing gift. Don’t worry about what other people are doing.

    • anon

      Run your own race! There is nothing wrong with alternating walking vs. jogging. I assure you that you will fit in just fine, whatever your pace is.

    • Non-athlete

      Oh, I was afraid I would get a lot of feel-good stuff. I know that’s all well and good, but before I run in front of co-workers and bigwigs at my company, I really do want to know how I will come off. I can keep doing my own pace and feeling good about myself in my neighborhood. :)

      • Anonymous

        …why does it matter though? If we told you a 25-minute 5K is respectable, it’s not like you could instantly magically run that in front of your coworkers. Are you afraid your coworkers are going to jeer at you for a slower time because that’s not a thing

        • Non-athlete

          I’m afraid that they will think I look out-of-shape, and I will feel silly and embarrassed. I have a fairly prominent role in the company, and the company is a big deal in the community; I want to uphold a certain image of myself. If people tell me that a certain time is respectable, I will aim to reach that time, or wait for next year if that time is out of reach. This is a completely optional thing; I’m only going to participate if I think I will enjoy it and make a good impression.

          • Anonymous

            You’re just so weird about this. Literally no one cares what your time is. The answer you are looking for doesn’t exist. The way you support your reputation at a corporate 5k is being positive and upbeat about it, being friendly to anyone you encounter, and being sociable at post run socializing. People will not know your time. When they finish they do not stand around the finish line waiting to see everyone else’s time.

          • Anonymous

            A 38-minute 5K will not make anyone think you are a super duper athlete. However, attending the event and completing a 5K will make people think you are a go-getter who is willing to get out there and support a cause, and that you are at least reasonably active.

            Also, no one else will really notice your time. What they will notice is whether you seem to be enjoying yourself or look like you’re dying after the race.

          • Anon

            Do you think they’re going to hold a staff meeting or publish an article in the local newspaper about your time?

          • Anonymous

            Listen to Anon at 11:31 and trust us when we say that NO ONE is going to be clocking your time. This is a charity run, not the elite field of the Boston Marathon.

          • Anon

            Nobody in your company cares about what your finishing time would be. Nobody. Unless you work for some Devil Wears Prada type of a boss. I would judge you on being so self-centered that instead of joining the fundraiser for a good cause, have some great time with your coworkers, you make this about your image. What a respectable time is depends on who you ask. I used to run marathons, I would say 15-20min very impressive, 20-25min impressive, 25-35min respectable. Would I think poorly of anyone finishing in 35+? No. I would expect majority of people on this forum to finish in that bracket and I consider then all as highly respectable.

        • AFT

          Agree with this. I am not a runner and clock a mid 30s 5K (in the before times). I figure I enjoy it and if you wanted to compare yourself, you are doing better than anyone who is sitting at home on the coach. I understand the anxiety as I never “ran” (really ran/walked) a 5K until my mid 30s, but trust me no one cares how fast you are.

      • Anon

        The only way you will come off poorly is if you make fun of people who run more slowly than you do. Or brag about the fact that you are a super amazing, competitive, world-class runner, and then walk the whole thing. Don’t do either of those things, and literally no one will care. Unless they, themselves, are a jerk – and then their opinion doesn’t matter.

      • Anonymous

        You’ll come off completely normal if you stop being so weird and judgmental about yourself and others who run at your place or slower.

      • Anon

        If it makes you feel better, I felt the same way about joining a work-sponsored 5K as a new runner, when several people in my group ran in college and spent weeks ahead of the race ribbing each other about who was going to be the fastest. A 21 year old paralegal who ran in college beat them all. I elected not to run, and after the race someone sent out a recap which what everyone’s times were. Nothing negative was said about the people who were all the way at the end, but there was a lot of “good natured” teasing about people who were at the bottom-of-the-top but still 10-15 minutes faster than the people at the end. I would not have wanted to have my name and time in that email ranking. I’m glad I avoided.

        I’ve worked at another place where everyone was super nice and supportive about this kind of thing, and the faster people slowed down so that the whole team could finish together — this was before I ran, and all the walkers (including me) stuck together and the running group cheered us at the finish line. So this is definitely a know your office situation!

      • Anon

        If this is your mindset, why not just walk instead of run? Walking time is more predictable and there are lots of people who can’t run due to shin splints or whatever. I would just be a walker under any circumstances because I don’t like to run.

      • anonshmanon

        To answer your specific question, at all such events I’ve participated in, a 30-35 minute finish would put you right in the middle of the distribution of runners. So nowhere near the podium, but absolutely blend-in-with-the-crowd. That’s only a little bit faster than you are now!
        That said, all these company events I’ve been to are 100% inclusive and non shaming, like the others pointed out. Compared to other athletic disciplines, I find that runners are a friendly, laid back people, or if they aren’t, they know to mind their own business.

      • Kitten

        I agree with the others that no one would care. I was an ok cross country runner in school so nothing above 20 minutes is going to impress me, but it’s all about conditioning and it would be kind of random if someone took a one-off 5k so seriously that they trained that much for it. I don’t really do cardio anymore, only strength training, and would consider myself healthy, but I couldn’t run a 5k right now without walking. I’ve done random charity 5ks and walk/run in 35 minutes and was firmly in the middle of the pack.

        38 minutes is not embarrassing, regardless of age, and there will be tons of people coming in behind you, both the walkers and runners who walked a lot. The vast majority of adults will not come close to being able to run an entire 5k. Many cannot even walk 5k. Seriously, don’t worry about it at all. If you are enjoying running and want to improve for your own enjoyment or benefit, I’d look for a training plan online that incorporates some speed, hill, and tempo work.

    • Anonymous

      Your goal should be getting out of this toxic mindset. My first 5k was 45 minutes. I was and am so proud of that. I pushed myself to my limit and accomplished something I never dreamt I could do. My closest work friend at the time, it was a corporate race with 10k participants, won the race. 17 minutes. Time doesn’t matter. Attitude and effort is the game.

    • Anon

      That sounds fine to me! If you want to push yourself, you could aim for 30 minutes but I wouldn’t be embarrassed to jog and walk. At a charity race I would doubt that 38 minutes will put you in last and nobody will be watching anyways.

    • cbackson

      I am a serious runner and I think you’ll find that more people at your company finish close to your time than close to mine. And also that no one cares. Seriously.

    • Anonymous

      Run your own race!!

      A 38 minute 5k is a 12:15/mile pace. This is a good pace where you will be with other people who are also running just like you. My guess is that you will finish ahead of about 25% of the other participants, if it was a normal mass event. Walkers are probably in the 16-20min/mile pace.

      That being said, it’s unlikely “big” marathon/half-marathon/5k events this year h. Everything has been cancelled for all of the last year, and I think its likely the cancellations will continue well into 2021.

      Expect it to be a “virtual” event where you do the course (or distance) on your own and then upload your results.

    • Anon

      Just go do it. Don’t worry about time. Your only goal should be to have a good time.
      I am 42 and can think of any number of guys in their 70s who could leave me in the dust on a 5k right now. I can think of one in his 80’s who can kick my ass on a bike any day of the week. Fitness and health should be a lifetime goal, so find something you enjoy and have fun with it, time or age groups be damned.

      • anon

        +1. I’ve been running consistently for four years. I’m still not especially speedy. At races, I still regularly get smoked by people two decades older than I am.

        • Anon

          One of my favorite race pics is of me and another runner who could easily be my mom (late 60’s), duking it out at the finish line of the local Turkey Trot 15k. We’ve known each other for years, were having a blast and the best part of the pic was the WTF look on the face of the random twentysomething woman we were overtaking on our way to the finish line.

          • Anonymous

            I have a bad knee and walk our local race after the runners. I have been beaten by an arthritic German Shepherd. It’s still great fun!

    • Anonymous

      I’d be more concerned about how I look after the race than my time. Don’t kill yourself to finish in X minutes if it means you’ll be a sweaty wheezing mess. Better to take your time and look presentable after, and I imagine most people will take the same approach.

      • Anonymous

        No, that doesn’t matter at all either. You just ran a race. It’s okay to breathe hard and be disheveled. The only appropriate response to all of this is that no one cares and it’s okay to exist as a person.

        • Anon

          Right? Even pictures of me in races that I WON look like I’m about to die. Some of us will never make it look effortless and that’s okay too. Learning to laugh at one’s self is a valuable skill when looking at race pics!

          • Anonymous

            Definitely. It’s awesome to see people who are passionate and who try hard. I’d so much rather get to know a coworker who gave it their all and tried something new, not caring how it looked to others, than someone primly trotting along so as not to break an unladylike sweat. Like, what? We’re not living in 1750, people!

        • Anonymous

          This just seems kind of odd to me. It’s the type of thing I’d expect a 21-year-old to MAYBE be nervous about (while they’re still learning the norms of the workplace/learning how to make a good impression), but a high-level career professional? This is so unusual.

    • Anonymous

      You are thinking way too much into this. My office always does active things (in before times) and I literally could not tell you who was the fastest runner or who did best in our yoga class or who was the most skilled biker. It’s just not a thing people care about.

    • Anonymous

      This whole thread suprised me. I can see why you might be nervous about appearing unfit as I think fitness is something people love to one up each other on or comment about. I think 35min would be a nice middle of the road time and something to work towards but I suspect on the day you’d be faster than normal anyway and come in around this. Anything slower than 45min I personally would be nervous about (and currently it would taken me 50 min I’m sure!)

    • anon

      If coworkers are comparing times pre-race, there’s always the “Oh, sometimes this (made up slight/old) injury flares up so I’ll see how it goes the day of”. Followed an enthusiastic rah rah company team sentiment. As an introvert, I sometimes need to give myself some space (or an out).

    • Anon

      Whenever you finish it is a great time! For your first race, it will be a PR! Go you!

    • Anon

      I get feeling self conscious but with that time you will be right in the middle. Also after the race everyone wanders off to get some oranges , chat, take pictures. No one is standing around the finish line or will notice when you finish. I have done work 5Ks where people finished all over the map and as long as you were cheerful and had fun, you came off well. The only people who stood out negatively were people taking it really seriously or talking about their time.

  18. Anon

    Has anyone tried the Quince silk short sleeve tee? Am considering the white color but am worried about sheerness. Love the low price but it won’t matter if it’s see through.

  19. Anon

    I am transitioning from an individual contributor role to a manager level role. Anyone have experiences with this transition? Any words of wisdom? What helped you the most when making this type of transition? Any good books or resources to help brush up on leadership or management skills?

    • Anon

      Others can chime in about managerial skills, but I want to mention that managing a team requires a lot of time, which means you have to manage your own time better. Schedule weekly or biweekly meetings with each direct report and weekly or biweekly team meetings. If your direct reports have their own staff, that means keeping track of their managing too. Writing performance reviews and just generally preparing feedback is time consuming too. I know some people on this board probably manage teams of 40 or more. I found a team of 6 really sucked up a lot of time, so be aware of that.

    • anon

      I made this transition three years ago. I’m not gonna lie — it was a harder transition than I expected. You’re used to being a top-level performer, I assume. It’s going to take time to find your footing and feel like a competent manager because it really does take a different type of skillset, even if you’re doing some of the same types of work that you did before. I don’t think I fully appreciated that until I was in it. Other thoughts: listen to your people as much as you talk. Try to get ahead of problems before they become big problems. Set aside time to do your own work, otherwise your time can easily get taken over by meetings and dealing with other people’s problems. I literally add calendar items for high-level projects and treat them like an unbreakable meeting. Understand that even if you’re capable of doing the work, it’s good to delegate whenever feasible you can because you will often be focused on other things. Save your energy for the things only you can (or need) to do. That has been tough for me; it’s so tempting to think — oh, this will take me an hour to finish, I should just do it and not delegate. Then stuff comes up, and suddenly it’s moved to the bottom of your priority list and it doesn’t get done.

      I highly recommend the HBR books on leadership and management.

    • Anon

      Source: I teach leadership to new managers
      The First 90 Days by Michael Watkins is what I use with new managers and I have gotten lots of feedback over the years about how helpful it is. Tactical advice on how to figure out what your new organization needs and create “quick wins” to build trust with your team and your leadership. It includes some information on leadership theory but is more tactical/practical which is more what new managers need, in my experience.
      Other recommendations:
      The Leadership Challenge by Kouzes and Posner
      Resonant Leadership by Boyatzis and McKee
      Dare to Lead by Brene Brown
      Happy to share other resources if you are interested.

    • CMS

      Manager Tools podcast was a godsend when I started managing a team. Also, managing is part of your job, but it doesn’t have actionable deliverables. You have to be intentional about setting aside time to work on “management” or it will always slip to the last priority and you will struggle with it.

    • Anon

      Maybe too late in day, but here goes

      My husband will be a sixth year biglaw associate next year in a major satellite market. His partnership track is 7 years. He doesn’t bill a ton, probably about 2200 hours annually but we really feel like we don’t see him for long stretches of time. He’s considered one of the best if not the best associate in his class. We have two kids, the youngest of which will start kinder in two years. He wants to go on 70% or 80% time. He doesn’t care about being partner and grew up with a dad that was a partner at a big time boutique and never saw him or his brother and doesn’t want that. We have been very fortunate financially and have over $2mm in savings. We live well within our means and I quit my high paying finance job a few years ago to have more time with my family and now work part time. I want him to have the same flexibility especially because we can live very comfortable at that reduced pay level.

      What are we missing from those that have gone on reduced hours?

      • Anon

        IANAL but something I’ve seen come up here over the years is that lawyers who try to go to reduced time end up still working full-time but at reduced pay.

      • Anon

        Is he the one providing benefits for your family? What does his firm do with associates that work less than 100% and benefits? From what I remember, at my old firm health insurance and everything cost more for those associates.

      • Anon

        What you’re missing is that your husband is going to get paid less and be expected to do the same amount of work.

      • Cat

        This reduction may give you some months that are “easier” but absolutely no predictability day-to-day. If he’s staffed on something that’s “hot” he can’t just say “peace out I’m going home because my deal is 9-5.”

      • Anonymous

        That most firms are up or out. If they are really busy or have a gap in a niche practice they will keep associates a bit longer, but it’s not a career. Some firms have formal off track positions that one can apply for, but if he is not in one of them this is risky.

      • Hollis

        Commenting as someone who is old and has worked at two biglaw firms and two mid level firms before settling in small law. The problem with the reduced hours is that unless he has a great feeder partner or some clients of his own, at most firms, an associate actually becomes less valuable over time because the associate is paid more and there’s a constant supply of attorneys will lower hourly rates who can also do the same quality work. If he does not become partner, does his firm have an “up or out” policy or can he hang out as an “of counsel” or an income partner for years? I’ve been an income partner and it was, in my opinion, the worst of both worlds. You still need to say “yes” to the a-hole partners who give last minute/vacation-ruining project, but there’s no clear light at the end of the tunnel when you will actually have some say/vote at the firm. Yes, the pay is okay, but there are mediocre or even jerky lawyers who will make partner and will make a lot more money because they are equity partner and as an employee, you will continue to work for them and give them a portion of your profits. To me, being told that I was good enough to have the partner title, but not good enough (not having enough of a book) to have a vote or get paid like a partner made me feel unhappy and unvalued, even though the pay was good and the hours were tolerable. It’s just the hierarchical nature of any biglaw firm. He may want to explore other options for achieving the same work-life balance – a smaller firm or in-house, where he will feel as valued and be as valued as the other top attorneys of the team.

    • CHL

      Additional favorite books — tactical – Help them Grow or Watch them Go. Bigger picture leadership – “Unleashed” by Frances Frei. Also, make them own the agenda at their 1:1’s.

  20. Anon

    Tax question… I got divorced a couple of years ago and share custody of my kid. Our divorce agreement says we take turns with who can claim him. Last year I filed as head of household and claimed the kid. This year I’m doing turbotax and it’s saying I can still file as head of household without claiming the kid because the other parent is claiming the kid per the divorce agreement. I’ve googled and there’s support for this online but the IRS publication confuses me, and I’m not 100% sure. Ex and I share custody 50/50. Should I go to an accountant for this? I used one back when I was married but it cost several hundred dollars, which is more than my return would be if I just file through turbotax. Or has anyone used the $30 turbotax advice option and would recommend, or not?

    • Anon

      I’ve used the turbotax advice option and it was great.

      Think about the worst case. If the IRS decides you’re not a head of household, they’ll send you a bill for the difference in tax. Probably not a full audit. Buy the audit defense package from Turbo Tax and they will help you with all of this if it happens, but not likely.

  21. Double Oven?

    For those of you that have an in-wall double oven, how often do you use the second oven? Are you happy you have two? Or do you think one will do?
    We have a really old, very small, obscurely sized double in wall oven that has broken down and needs to be replaced. Of course, the cut out is very small so most new standard double ovens do not fit in it. There are, however, a small number of single wall ovens that are slim enough to fit in the cut out width-wise. So we could just do one of these small single wall ovens, or buy two of the exact same oven and put them one over the top of each other (which of course, doubles the cost of the oven buying). Either way, we have to pay someone to modify the cut out length-wise, but with the double we will lose more cabinet space. We have two small kids and plan for this to be our forever home.
    Thoughts?

    • Anon

      I love having a double wall oven. I also had to have my cabinet cut to put it in, also replacing a small, obscurely sized double oven. If you have, say, a 24″ oven, you will probably enjoy having 2 just because the size is so small. You could even put them in different cabinets if you don’t want to stack them.

    • Cb

      I really like the double oven, ours isn’t giant, but it’s nice to be able to cook two things at once without smells overlapping etc. Now we have a Samsung, with a divider panel, so it could be one big oven or two smaller ovens. And a drawer for warming plates, which I didn’t think I’d use but is awesome for proofing bread.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      I’ve had a double oven before and I don’t miss it all that much even though we cook and bake quite a bit. It’s something that’s nice to have if you can easily retrofit it, but I’m perfectly fine being without in our current kitchen with a 30″ range. When we need more baking space, we pull out our toaster oven.

    • Lilau

      I love my double ovens enough that I’m putting them in my next home. I don’t use them both on a daily basis but I think it’s hyperbolic when people talk about only using both ovens on thanksgiving. For me it’s also Passover, Christmas, Hanukkah,my dad’s birthday, my husband’s birthday and really anytime I want slow roasted brisket but super crispy potatoes (meaning anytime I want brisket.)

      Also, and I’m not blaming anyone here, but more than once I’ve got to use my oven and it was dirty enough to smoke, so I’ll just use the other in a pinch and let it self clean later.

      Team double ovens!

      • Thanks, it has pockets!

        This. I don’t plan on going out of my way for a double oven, but there’ve been a few festive meals this past year where having two ovens would’ve been super helpful – really any time where you’re cooking both a meat and a carb (steak and garlic bread, turkey and mac n cheese, etc.) that need different temperatures. I’d imagine they’re also a helpful remedy for the “everyone brought a dish that ‘just needs 10 minutes in the oven!'” blues.

        • Anonymous

          Definitely re potluck dinner parties. We often do dinner parties with friends where the host provides the main, someone brings an app or salad, someone else brings dessert. Great to have one place to cook the main and another to warm the app/dessert etc.

    • Anonymous

      Just did a kitchen reno and installed double ovens. I grew up with double ovens, DH didn’t but after only 6 weeks, he’s a convert. I have true double ovens vs. the warming oven/regular oven combo that you sometimes see. Look at the European brands as they often have slimmer options – e.g Bosch. I have the GE Profile double ovens and I’m happy so far but they are not small sized.

      At Christmas, I was baking gingerbread cookies in one while DH was roasting chestnuts in the other. We cook at home a lot (and entertained in Before Times). Love being about to put a lasagna in one and a pie in the other at different times and temps and have them ready when I want. Sometimes I just warm plates in one but lots of times cooking might involve two different parts of the meal at two different temps or dinner for tonight in one oven and lunch for tomorrow in the other.

      With three kids, I prefer to use the ovens over the stovetop because I can hang with my kids while dinner is cooking. So more likely to roast carrots/potatoes/sausages vs boil/fry on stovetop etc.

    • Senior Attorney

      I love, love, love my double ovens. I was in a house without them for a while and missed the second one on a regular basis. I use my second one at least once a week. But I always say “even if you only need it on Thanksgiving, you NEED it on Thanksgiving.”

    • Anon

      It’s not in wall, but I have a double oven and don’t ever want to go back.

    • Sutemi

      We have a range with a single oven but rely a lot on our toaster oven. It works great for baking up to 9×13 pans, broiling, etc. at a small size.

  22. Attention to detail

    Can attention to detail be trained? I have a hard working, well meaning employee. She will do things like fire off simple email questions that I’ve told her the answer to 5 times or return documents where I’ve requested changes and she’s only completed half the changes. By the time I have her complete them all, I could have just done it myself. She’s got a decade of experience in her field, but if I didn’t know who she worked for previously, I would think she had fabricated her experience. The questions she asks and the inability to accept feedback and make changes are things I would expect a complete beginner to to be able to do.

    • Headachey

      How have you addressed this with her? How self-aware is she about the issues, and does she have any insight into why she struggles with this? Could you ask her to identify gaps and strategies she could try to improve her review and attention to detail?

      • Attention to detail

        Good question. I guess I haven’t addressed it by asking why she didn’t do x,y, and z instead of only x. I tend to go back and state that it’s missing the elements we discussed. I assumed it was obvious. I also provide examples of how I would like the work performed, but that has no effect.

        With regards to the questions, I have advised her to try to find the answer herself before sending an email and if she is unable to find the answer, to provide some analysis/context with her questions.

        For example- she will be putting together a document and need to know how many companies we own and operate. Instead of referring to a previous document or our literature, she will email the CEO directly to ask these types of questions.

        • theguvnah

          that example is actually a HUGE deal to me. If she doesn’t understand how inappropriate it is to email aCEO (!) for an answer to a question she a. should already know and b. can easily look up the answer to, she is missing huge awareness skills. and problem-solving skills. and managing up skills.

    • Anonymous

      Not sure. I’m dealing with someone like this too and I’m not sure if she is actually capable of improving. There are a lot of grammatical errors, inconsistent formatting, etc. that I’d expect a high school intern to handle perfectly and it’s confusing and weird to have to tell her things like “hey, that’s not how capitalization works” more than once. She knows she needs to proofread more because everyone has told her as much, but when the mistakes keep on happening, it makes me wonder if she just doesn’t have the capacity to improve.

      • Attention to detail

        The inconsistent formatting drives me insane. I don’t even understand how someone can use different size fonts and alignments in the same document without it being on purpose.

    • Anonymous

      Sounds either like she doesn’t care or has a problem with executive functioning.

      • Anon

        I have problems with executive functioning… but not the problems described here. If she’s been in the field for ten years and hasn’t learned this stuff yet, I’m guessing what she actually learned is that this is good enough?

        • Anon

          (I mean, it’s not actually good enough. But she’s acting like it is! I can’t imagine emailing the CEO to avoid a minimal research task.)

    • Anon

      Now is the time for a performance improvement plan or whatever your office calls it. The first step leading to letting someone go. Hinting will not work. Subtle suggestions will not work. Put it in writing.

      When you give her work, also put in writing exactly what you want done and when you expect to receive it. Document, document, document.

      If you’re lucky, she will quit once she sees the writing on the wall. Best case, the performance improvement plan actually improves her performance, because what she needs to do in order to keep her job is right there in black and white.

      The time to do this was yesterday or last week or last month. Don’t put it off any longer.

    • Ellen

      I have this problem sometimes with Lynn. She is to quick and lacks judgement preferring to just get things off her desk so she can go back to surf the web.

      I’ve told the manageing partner, but he knows Lynn’s family, and does not want to fire her. He also knows that she was used by our former associate just for s-x, and that once we fired the associate, Lynn was depressed for over a year b/c he moved away and found another girlfreind to have s-x with.

      So it is a touchy subject you will have to negotiate on a sui generis basis, Dad says and I agree! YAY!!!

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