Thursday’s Workwear Report: Asymmetrical Fold Sheath Dress

325 Comments

1. LUV this. Classic, trim silhouette with a modern, feminine touch, looks really flattering. Great colors, too. And if “woven” is what I’m thinking of, then it might be more like suiting material (and less like a ponte knit), which means it might not pill as much. I really want to give this a try, but I just bought 2 jcrew dresses on their final sale (i.e., no returns) last night and feel like I already indulged. Sigh.

   1. Yes, woven is not knit. There is minimal stretch (depending on the fiber contents) for wovens.

   2. Agreed. I love this color also. I wonder if the JUDGE would like this? Does the HIVE think I can e-mail the judge with a link to the LIMITED’S websight and ask him to agree if he like’s the dress and color BEFORE I buy it? My freind Laurie thinks that would NOT be good, b/c it is an EX PARTY communication. I think she is wrong b/c it is NOT in conection with any of my ACTIVE cases with the Judge, other then the fact I would eventueally APPEAR in court on those cases wearing said Sheathe Dress. FOOEY!

      What does the HIVE think? Am I right or what? I hope so, b/c I did NOT contact the judge after all. I asked Myrna to buy it and I will try it on when she bring’s it OVER! YAY!

2. I like this dress a lot!
   Question for you law ladies: how do you view other professions who don’t use hours for billing?
   I am a physician, and we are paid for face-to-face clinic visits, that’s it. (And usually paid a fraction of the actual cost by insurance…)
   So when I visit a patient in the hospital, spend time on the phone talking to patients, spend time refilling prescriptions and filling out paperwork for prior authorizations for medications, spend time filling out other paperwork, writing letters for patients’ work etc… it is all uncompensated.
   Do you see this as part of the work because of the profession? Or are we (doctors) foolish for doing all this for free?
   I love my patients and I am happy to do this, I see it as part of my job, but I wonder how it is viewed by others (after reading so much here about billable hours)… Curious. Thanks!

   1. Lawyers have to do stuff for “free” too. More accurately, it’s part of the overhead. I think everyone who works on a billable hour model is aware that it’s just a way of approximating the cost of the total enterprise, not a way of actually getting paid for every amount of time they spend in some particularly fair way.

      And everyone – everyone – hates time tracking so probably we’re mostly jealous of you.

   2. Lawyers who use the billable hour also spend a lot of time working that is not directly billable. It’s part of the job – and part of the reason the billable hour is so expensive – everyone knows you can’t bill for every minute you spend working, unless you’re Ellen.

   3. I see it all as overhead. Your rates for face-to-face time factor in all of this work.

      1. +1. Lawyer here. Same concept as flat-fee cases for us.

   4. “Question for you law ladies: how do you view other professions who don’t use hours for billing?”

      Like a dream :D

      “Do you see this as part of the work because of the profession? Or are we (doctors) foolish for doing all this for free?”

      I empathize with the feeling that a substantial portion of your important work is uncompensated. Even those of us who bill face that issue- we all have administrative tasks to do, feed back to subordinates to give, business development efforts, non-billable projects, committees, etc. that are just part of the drill. For example, one month last year I billed 140 hours and spent 50 on nonbillable matters (unusually high, it’s usually around 30/month) and got squawked at by partners. If I had worked the same amount of hours but it was all billable, they’d have stopped by my office to praise my “work ethic” (read: profitability).

   5. I’m a lawyer, but I am in-house so I don’t bill hourly. When I did bill hourly, though, there was a lot of stuff lawyers couldn’t bill for, either. And even if you can bill for work, clients would sometimes refuse to pay it (or pay full price) so time got “written down” a lot. In short, you may have more “unbillable” work, but it probably isn’t as different from how lawyers work as you think it is.

   6. I think that’s analogous at least to being a lawyer at a law firm that uses billable hours. We do a lot of work that’s necessary but not billable. So, writing a brief or arguing in court may be billable. Client development, giving advice over the phone to a prospective client, helping out other lawyers in the firm on issues, and the necessary professional development are all non-billable.

      I had a case a few years ago where we represented an individual that was defending against allegations of intentional torts. We normally represent corporations, so this was relatively unusual. I knew the individual was incurring huge fees in this defense (of a truly meritless claim), so I didn’t bill a good bit of my time, simply because I couldn’t, in good conscience, make the defendant pay for it. You take the hours hit, but you also have to be able to sleep at night knowing that you’ve done a good (and morally good) job.

   7. It surely factors into the rates you charge, right? It’s an overhead cost.

      1. No, it is not factored proportionally into the rates we charge.

         In fact, most of the rates we charge are dropping because the pressure from insurance companies and from the below market Medicare rates forces it down. And the proportion of time we have to devote to these non-billable items is increasing exponentially because of the complexity of insurance companies.

         Sitting on hold with insurance companies, fighting for and appealing for coverage of things that used to be routine in the past, having to call again every years to re-justify the same medications, answering questions by email now that new technology is adding patient interaction options (which is very good, I think), trying to fix mistakes in claim processing and more pressures on docs to see more patients in less time. And now interns and residents are in the hospital/clinic for fewer hours because of the re-organization of training requirements (and they are not as well trained, I can tell you…..) also limits help with systems issues.

         Every specialty is different how they are handling this. Some very high priced specialties that bring in a lot of money (eg. especially some surgical specialties) are doing well by hiring a lot of nurse practicioners to assist with all of this. Other specialties can’t afford to hire/train these specialists, or they are done by lower level specialists that aren’t as experienced. It’s going to take many, many years to optimize our system but it’s a little rough right now, especially for non-surgical specialties.

         This website is very heavily weighted in law and not specialties like medicine where the billing rate is so much lower than law, and the lifestyle is so different, I think it is impossible to compare and discuss this issue.

         And to sleep at night? I get paged at night about people who are ill and have to make critical decisions. My day never comes to an end, and my patients are always on my mind. I never fall asleep feeling without wondering/questioning a decision, or finding a new question to check in the morning.

         And this is what it means to be a good doctor.

         But I still feel very lucky to do what I do.

         1. Not trying to undermine all the work that you do, but just because you feel like the rate amount doesn’t include overhead because it’s low doesn’t mean that the rate does not include overhead. That is the whole point of the shift in health care right now. You pay for the whole episode of care rather than fee-for-service. Overhead to run a practice is overhead. Yes, rates are lowering, and that’s why you see so many physicians move to hospital employment models rather than private practice, but doesn’t change the fact that the rate is meant to include enough to cover overhead.

         2. I fully agree that doctors and lawyers are very different professions, particularly when you–as a doctor–are dealing with life and death decisions. I’m a business litigator, so usually money is the only thing I’m fighting for.

            That being said, all the things you listed are actually also issues I have to face. After the recession all law firms (except for maybe the very tip top) are dealing with clients who want to pay lower fees, or flat rates, or negotiate other alternative billing arrangements. More associates are fighter for fewer partnership spots. Consequently, lawyers have to spend more time developing their own book of business and doing other administrative tasks to make themselves more attractive to their bosses and potential clients (preparing for and presenting CLEs, writing articles for bar journals, attending marketing events and lunches/dinners/cocktail hours, sitting on various bar committees, etc.)

            We also obviously answer hundreds of emails a day. There’s no way I can realistically capture all that time and bill it. If I spend one minute responding to one email in one case, then another two minutes responding to an email in a different case, I just don’t bill it, because it’s too hard to remember and track (we also bill in 6-minute increments). We have to deal with court filing issues, talk to our legal assistants and paralegals re: staffing problems, attend various in-house commitments, train new associates, be mentored by partners, etc.

            I’m on call all the time, unless I take vacation. I get emails from clients in different time zones that I need to respond to — sometimes right before I go to bed, so I lay there thinking about how to solve the problem instead of sleeping.

            The billable hour–unless you are a solo practitioner, or in a very small practice–does not really reflect what you are getting paid. It encompasses ALL your overhead and, if you are an associate, a significant amount of profit going to the partners. It’s just a way to track your time and prove your profitability. So the number associated with my billable hour rate doesn’t really mean that much to me as an associate.

         3. Not a physician, but in the health care field. Question- are none of the non-billable services billable under E&M codes? It has always been my understanding that E&M codes were used especially by primary care physicians for some of the services you describe.

   8. Canadian so this varies slightly by province. Generally our public health care covers only face to face visits and hospital visits. Items like completing forms for patient’s work or refilling prescriptions over the phone will be charged at a nominal rate by some (but not all) doctors. Like $10 to call in a prescription refill or $20 to complete annual physical form.

      1. Our system will soon start adding these small charges. Some private clinics have started doing it already. Very reasonable.

         Also, with time our system will evolve to be like it is in Europe/?Canada. Re-imbursement rates will continue to fall, salaries will also decrease, covered services will become more clearly defined with stricter boundaries, shift work will continue and care will become more segmented (and I suspect, less good…). More and more women will go into Medicine (as the trend continues), prestige will continue to drop, as salaries drop.

         The problem is that it takes $250,000 out of pocket to go to Medical school, and then another 3-8 years of post-medical school training (lower paying internship + residency + fellowship in many/most cases) to become a doctor working very long hours, then paying back your huge amount of loans while working like crazy and you don’t have Big Law salaries to help you. We need to figure out what we are going to do to continue to attract good, smart people to medicine.

         I would never become a doctor now if I had to take out 250K in loans. Never.

         1. OTOH, I can easily count the # of lawyers I know with $200K in loans. But not all lawyers get jobs, let alone well paying jobs. Many live at home. Many get jobs paying 50K a year (and a good secretary can make that with no law school AND no loans). BigLaw, for many, if like playing in the NFL: good money while you make it, but you may be gone to a job that pays far less in ~ 4-6 years (where many firms will toss you out if you’re not slated to make partner).

            1. I know LOTS of lawyers with $200k in loans and low-paying jobs. It’s pretty common once you get out of the T14 schools.

            2. Same in medicine. Not everyone gets a good job where they want to. You may have to be willing to work …. in South Dakota…. or Arkansas… or wherever there are openings.

               And many starting jobs (again, varies based on city and specialty) are not 6 figures! Especially if you want to work where you are doing more public service/indigent care/needy areas/academia and more.

               And lawyers do not train nearly as long as doctors do. You don’t have a low paying additional 3-8 years of training after medical school, and medical school itself is pretty brutal. It is a very different path.

            3. I have $250k in law school loans and another $25k on credit cards for the year I spent looking for a job after law school until I very very luckily found one that pays $50k/year.

            4. @ MD: I totally get it, and I’m not trying to discount your profession. I believe that it’s a much harder track. But I went to a second-tier law school, and a significant number of graduates got NO legal jobs. They are doing work they could have done before going to law school. Another significant portion of graduates got jobs paying between $30k (for public interest jobs) and $60k (small firms or insurance defense where they grind you to the bone). The top graduates make $115k out of law school. Not in biglaw – school doesn’t have the reputation to qualify its graduates for that. Most of the graduates will be lucky if they end up making six figures in their career.

               There are probably 150 law schools (not counting the unaccredited ones) that are ranked worse than my law school. It SUCKS out there for many many law grads. And they have a ton of debt. There’s no need for us to do a “who has it worse” contest, but I think you get a very skewed version of the facts from people who post here. There are lots of posters in biglaw who represent a very very small fraction of the law grads in the country.

            5. I think job availability/pay comparisons/type of work aren’t very useful. Both professions have a huge spectrum based in large part on where you want to work, where you went to school, how you did in school, and what you choose to specialize in (among many, many other key factors).

            6. @ Care: I agree, I just want to make sure MD is comparing apples to apples. If she is basing her comparison of her experience to people here who talk about what it’s like to be a lawyer in Biglaw, then I’m not sure that’s the right comparison. She mentions that there are doctors in certain specialties or higher-priced practices don’t have to worry about the same problems she is facing. If so, then those doctors are likely more like law graduates on the Biglaw end of the spectrum–making large salaries with significant staff support. There are lots and lots of lawyers who run into the same administrative issues MD is talking about. And many more who don’t even have the luxury of working in the profession they paid to train in.

            7. I’m a partner in BigLaw (branch office). That’s like being a surgeon (but not a bone/brain surgeon) or a reality show plastic surgeon.

               My first job out of law school paid 29.5K working for a state court judge in the middle of nowhere. The secretary made 32K. I borrowed about 85% of the cost of law school.

               There are wild disparities in jobs, sort of like b/w Payton Manning and someone who plays football in Canada or the difference between Derek Jeter (before he retired) and minor-league 18-year-old players trying to move from AAA to AA.

               It doesn’t much matter b/c the loans are the same. And we churn out more lawyers than we need, but people still need public defenders and real estate closings in all parts of the country. It is what it is. I would never advise my children to go to law school through.

         2. The grass is always greener. Really. I have wondered from time to time if I would have been happier being a doctor (probably not, I’m very squeamish).

            And I think being an associate in a law firm may be more like residency than you think – it’s really more of a training period, and you don’t ultimately have much authority to make decisions.

            I can’t quite tell what your ultimate point is – doctors have it harder than lawyers? Doctors should be compensated more like lawyers? I’m not looking to pick a fight, but the tone of your posts comes off a little hostile towards lawyers.

            1. But you are paid so much more as an associate than as a medical intern/resident/fellow. And those clinical years are still brutal with much of the day to day responsibility on the trainees shoulders… NOT the attending, although they are the official name of record. So that is also quite different.

               But you are also totally right January…… I apologize as I re-read my posts and totally agree it comes off as too aggressive. Not sure why actually.

               Maybe because it seemed so easy for every poster to dismiss the OP’s issues as just being “normal overhead”. Because it is not the same. I think that was it.

               There are going to be a lot of changes in medicine over the next 10-30 years. And honestly, they will not always be ones that patients like.

               Waits for doctors will be longer… both to get appointments, and in the waiting rooms. Fees are going to be added for doing paperwork, or perhaps, more patient involvement will be required for getting things done with insurance companies. Care will be very focused, and doctors will become more specialized because medicine is getting so complex. This also, unfortunately, means more errors will likely happen if individuals and families are not more vigilant. Coordinating among multiple doctors is difficult. This is also uncompensated time that has to be spent outside of a clinic appointment reading outside records, calling other doctors, reviewing scans/labs with other doctors. So sometimes it will get skipped. There just isn’t enough time. I’m being honest here.

               While computerized medical records are improving many things about medicine, they also mean your doctor will be staring at a computer screen while they talk to you, and not at you. They also mean much time will be devoted to filling out check boxes on a computer… and unfortunately… too much cutting and pasting that is filled with mistakes, inaccuracies and worse. That gets propagated.

               For regular, healthy folks that don’t see doctors much, you wont feel this, but you will complain about waiting at your doctor’s office and will get disgruntled that your doctors don’t spend more time with you and want to bill to fill out your paperwork.

               I am a big proponent of Obamacare. But there are many problems, and people with modest income are still struggling with the costs of health care. And so much more that needs to be done. But it is putting a huge squeeze on clinics/hospitals/doctors to do more with less.

               Somehow, medical education needs to start being subsidized or we aren’t going to get enough good people going into Medicine or we will have to outsource even more of our doctors to foreign medical grads.

               And people need to realize that more and more of their medical responsibilities unfortunately may be placed on their own shoulders. You need to be your own advocate.

               So sorry for my tone… I’m all over the place I guess.

               But yes – I still am very satisfied by what I do.

               And stressed!

            2. Actuary here. I am also a big proponent of universal healthcare (I think basic healthcare is something a decent society should provide for all) but I think the ACA is flawed, mainly due to the politics of getting it passed.

               There are some members of the population that are “uninsurable” by any standard definition. In order for the scheme to make sense, people with pre-existing conditions should be covered in a separate high-risk pool, which is paid for through tax dollars or at least a tax subsidy. Currently, health insurers are required take all risks, which creates higher than necessary premiums for low risk insureds.

               I believe it would be fairer to pass the high risk costs through as a tax so that I, as a high earner, pay more of the cost than my cleaning lady does.

               But of course no one can use the word “tax” in congress right now.

            3. Yes, I think the pay scale is the biggest difference between associates and residents. I don’t know if that’s fair to medical trainees.

               I guess I was objecting to the idea (which was maybe implicit) that you think lawyers have it made because associates (in certain specialties) are paid very well. Being an associate can also be brutal, in its own way, and filled with various kinds of drudgery while the partners get the glory. I sometimes think that my own doctors may have achieved a better work-life balance than I would be able to if I remained in this area of the law, and I sometimes feel some regret about that.

               I don’t know any medical students or residents very well personally, so this peek into another world is interesting for me.

            4. I just commented that I don’t think this is the slightest bit productive – absolutely apples & oranges, but…

               I think what everyone is trying to tell you that you don’t quite seem to understand is that associates are not all paid “so much more” than residents. I would guess that around the same % of associates are paid the crazy high salaries as % of residents go to the very tip top residency programs (and then have massive earning power because of those programs). My sister is a second-year resident and I have many lawyer friends who make less than her (or are still searching for jobs). Also, in our state, her tuition was subsidized – so there are states that recognize the shortage and are trying to make it cheaper.

               Should medical residents be paid more? Absolutely. But I also know that in my state, there aren’t enough residency programs for all of the medical students in the state. That’s a problem. Students are fighting for the residency spots and have no basis to complain about the pay. Absent any competition or reason to pay more, the programs just aren’t going to do so.

         3. You know Canada and Europe have much higher standards of care and better population health right? I know American doctors gawk at it because our doctors make less money but they are still very comfortably upperclass. Plus med school is much cheaper in Canada/Europe and often comes with loan forgiveness if you work in undesirable locations or specialties. Just because medicine isn’t capitalistic doesn’t mean it’s bad, in fact it’s the opposite.

            1. I don’t know if this is an established fact. They may have higher overall standards of care, but isn’t the argument on the other side that a privatized system has better specialized care, and better care as long as you can afford to pay for it? In other words, you can get better care in the US as long as you can buy it.

            2. The 1% in the US most certainly gets better care. However if we compare the 99%, which is the majority of the population and the average citizen, care is far superior with universal health care.

            3. I think you’re both right. Having received care in both the US (when working there) and Canada (where I live now) access to specialists and specialized care is much easier in the US. If I wanted an MRI or to see a specialist, it was fast and available, and waiting lists non-existent. BUT. I paid a fortune by comparison for it and I hated having to co-pay for every tiny little thing and always worry if I was in network. And I was making biglaw money with fantastic big law subsidized insurance. I also was uncomfortable with the reality that I got better care simply because I could pay for it.

               Having experienced both, I would take Canadian health care any day. There is no substitute for knowing that if you get sick, you get treatment. Full stop. The treatment received in Canada is on par with treatment in the US. And if it takes me an extra few weeks or months to get an MRI because it means my neighbor without my financial resources can also get an MRI if needed is so worth it to me.

         4. Very, very few lawyers wind up in big law. Even fewer wind up staying and making partner, especially post-2008. The salary distribution for young lawyers is highly bimodal.

            So, a big law associate might get paid more than a resident, but that biglaw associate only has that job for a few years. Then, likely goes to a lower paying job.

   9. Thanks for all the insightful responses!

      1. I go to One Medical Group and as a patient it is a very pleasant experience. I suspect the providers there feel the same way. I don’t see an MD very often – I see mid-levels most of the time, and it works out really well for me. There is a membership fee, but it’s waived with my insurance company, and I buy my insurance on the exchange. So, not all changes in the models of medical care are unpleasant for at least this one patient!

      2. MDMD:

         You will never be able to have people that are not physicians understand what it is like to be a physician. It is not analogous to Big Law except in the number of hours worked (at times). I know, my husband is a Big Law partner so I have also seen that process.. Not sure what specialty you are but the key is to outsource what does not require an MD degree to complete. LPNs call back normal results. NPs and PAs see “pathway ” and uncomplicated pts. Scribes transcribe the visits. FMLA and disability paperwork completed by secretaries ( then reviewed and changed as needed) with a charge. I am a surgical specialist and partner in a private practice. We drop insurances that do not pay enough to meet our overhead. Pts have to pay copays prior to visit or else not seen ( no, I don’t treat cancer). Unfortunately, we are trained to be altruistic to others without regards to our own finances. Medicine is a business and others make billions off our work. Figure out how to work smarter, not harder. We work hard everyday to help others. Time is the only resource you cant make more of. Use your time wisely.

         1. Interesting.

            Most doctors do not have luxuries that you have, as a high billing surgeon, partner in a successful private practice. Actually, in my specialty, soon private practices will no longer exist. We don’t have secretaries that can fill out disability paperwork, or NPs/PAs who see patients. We also have a large low paying Medicare/Medicaid population base, which I feel should be divided amongst practitioners, and which I suspect your practice does not. We have to enter our own notes into the computer. The year I started as a fellow, they stopped allowing new hires to do dictations, which were sent out for transcribing.

            I am in academic medicine, in a major city, in a high reputation hospital.

            And honestly, I’m not sure medicine should be run as a business… like law…. it’s quite different.

            But I’m still not sure quite how to fix it.

            1. You are in academics, beholden to the chairman and Dean. I was in academics for 8 years (same demos as you), we had residents, fellows, NPs, and PAs. We had resident clinics who saw uninsured and Medicaid with attendings rotating cover.
               If you don’t have this option, make sure that the payer mix is equally divided between all faculty. When times get tough, I have seen faculty chastised for low collections.
               Medicine is a business. Will not change even with single payer.
               How do you fix it? Education, diet, exercise and accountability.

         2. I agree that this is a problem, more so in my specialty (IM hospitalist at a major academic referral center) than in surgery. I have literally spent 3 hours synthesizing multiple binders full of outside hospital records on a new transfer, just to bill for a level 3 note, same as any old run of the mill septic pt from the ED. For us non proceduralists, our time is worthless.

3. The Limited’s dresses are fine, but in my experience very poor quality (as you may expect for the price point!) – plan on a good slip.

   Question – funeral in a large East Coast city. What do I wear? Is a black sheath dress and tights with a neutral cardigan okay? I feel like I’ve been hearing that all-black is now passé, for women at least. It’s actually supposed to be pretty warm here in the next couple days. I haven’t been to services since I’ve lived here and dress code in my small hometown city is pretty different (asked a friend from the South and she said it’s disrespectful to not wear black and gray?). I was raised in the religion the service will be held in so not worried about cultural norms.

   1. I don’t think you can go wrong with the outfit you described. I just went to a traditional Catholic wake and funeral in Boston. What you described is exactly what I wore to both, and I fit right in.

   2. Your outfit sounds perfectly appropriate for any funeral.

   3. I don’t think all black will ever be passe for a funeral. I would do black dress + black cardigan, but I think you can do another dark neutral as well.

      1. I agree.

         So many people wear all black anyway that I can’t see it being wrong at a funeral. Boring, maybe, but it’s a funeral. You can punch it up at other times.

   4. I think your outfit sounds good. I continue to wear all black because it’s the safest choice, even though I’m increasingly feeling like the odd woman out. From the funerals I’ve been to lately, it seems like only the immediate family wears black these days.

      1. I agree. Even at the funeral of my grandmother, a large amount of family weren’t wearing all black (this was in Philadelphia). A month before that, I was at a funeral in Memphis and I was DEFINITELY one of the only people wearing black – which really surprised me.

         I still go for all black but it seems like it is getting more unusual.

   5. sounds fine. Just don’t do black dress with large white polkadots, like I saw at a recent funeral. We aren’t that evolved yet.

   6. I think the goal in dressing for a funeral is for people to not remember what you wore. Your outfit sounds fine.

      1. Agreed. I’ve only remembered what people wore to funerals three times, because their dress did not match the formality and somberness of the occasion.

   7. I just went to a service/funeral this week, in a Catholic church in the MidWest.

      Your outfit sounds great.

      I wore a black and white print skirt that was clearly not all black, black tights and boots, and a black blouse and sweater, and had my coat on the whole time anyway (cold in those churches). My coat has a very large/sweeping fur collar that is white/grey over a wool black coat, so a bit of non-black there.

      I was definitely one of the most conservatively dressed. There were no women wearing all black. I think these days, that’s a bit too much. Black somewhere is good, with neutrals and no bright colors or too much white.

      So I think your outfit was fine.

   8. Your outfit sounds ok as long as the cardigan isn’t black. You might further lighten it up with sheer hose rather than black tights.

      It’s an odd thing, but head to toe black at funerals is usually reserved for “grieving widow” (not literally, but the idea being people who are immediate family to the deceased). Others should not wear all black.

      I wear black head to toe as a fashion/work look all the time but wouldn’t wear it to a funeral unless I were in fact the grieving widow (knock wood!)

      1. I was thinking heathered gray tights and a neutral cardigan (very similar to the outfit I have on at work today, actually) – maybe the grieving widow thing is where I got that idea from? I don’t remember ever in my life doing head to toe black for a funeral (for work? every day if I could)

4. Hive, help me manage my money! I’m a third year biglaw associate who just finished paying off my student loans (woot!). I want to be responsible with how I manage my excess money (I’m not used to it not all going to student loans!). I live frugally – rent + extras is about 25% of my takehome. I put 10% of my paycheck into an IRA. I have about 30k in savings and 10k in a (not making enough) money market account. By my calculations, I can save about 72k this year not including my bonus. Where would you put this money? Is there a certain type of investing I should be doing? Be putting more into IRA (no matching)? I don’t trust my parents with money advice so looking for wisdom!

   1. Congrats!! Okay, this isn’t exactly advice, but do you mind me asking how much you paid off and how much you threw at it every month? I feel like I need a reality check.
      – Another 3rd year associate nowhere near paid off

      1. thanks! I had ~130k. I also had a clerkship so wasn’t making biglaw the whole time. I refinanced through sofi to get all my loans together. I was making regular monthly payments of ~2000 and then would every couple of months make a big 5-10k payment in addition to that, just to get at the principal. basically I made loans my #1 priority and lived frugally (my clerkship was in a LCOL city which helped, though my biglaw is not). my version of living frugally is to still take vacations, but to either stay with friends or airbnb it, hoard points like crazy and use that for flights, never eat out alone (I will go out with friends but won’t just go buy lunch/dinner for myself), only buy sale or secondhand, and not live alone (ive always had roommates which I prefer, so it doesn’t feel like a sacrifice). good luck – I know how annoying it is to pay off, but you WILL get there!

      2. For another reference, 3rd year attorney (in-house, not an associate), and I just paid off $86,000. I didn’t start aggressively paying down my loans until a year after I graduated, but I paid between $2500-$4000 a month the last year and a half, depending on how much we had leftover. We saved for a $5,000 honeymoon during that time, as well, but that was our one big splurge. Every other aspect of our life is fairly frugal.

   2. I would put that money in a savings account and use it as a down payment on a home.

      1. IF you know you want to buy a house. As 2008 taught us, a house is not an investment. Renting forever is actually a good choice in some areas and for some people.

         Meanwhile, there are other places to put the money that might earn more (but obviously be less safe) than a plain old savings account. There are always index funds.

   3. Do you have a 401k through work? The 401k limits (18k/year) are higher than the IRA limits (5500/year) so you can put more into retirement each year if you do only the 401k or both.

      1. oh, my bad. I put the money toward a 401(k), not an IRA. do people do both?

         1. Yes. I max out my 401(k) with the $18,000, and then contribute the max ($5,500) to my IRA as well.

         2. Yes — if you have excess money, you may want to start an IRA too.

            1. They’re probably above the income limits for contributing to an IRA, no?

            2. There is no income cap on contributing to a regular IRA – there is for a Roth IRA.

            3. What anon PF said. I’m a biglaw senior associate, so I’ve always been above the Roth limits, but IRAs are doable.

            4. But there is an income cap on the ability to deduct, no?

            5. Yes, there are limits on ability to deduct a regular IRA contribution based on your income and whether you have an employee-sponsored plan you contribute to as well.

               I max out my 401K and also my IRA. I am above the limits for deducting. I make more in compound growth in my retirement accounts than I would have saved in deductions anyway (if i’d been below limits).

            6. Also, because of dumb IRS rules you can contribute to the traditional IRA (no deduction) and then immediately convert it to a Roth.

            7. You can make nondeductible contributions to a traditional IRA and then convert to a Roth. Google “backdoor Roth.”

         3. If you are putting the 18K into a 401k, that is great. Your income is probably too high for deductible IRA contributions but you could make non-deductible contributions into an IRA as well, if you want.

            I would stick your excess savings in an index fund for now. Vanguard has low fees so I would go there.

   4. What are your goals in life? Do you want to buy a house? Do you plan to leave big law for a lower paying job? What about kids? What are the timeframes for these goals? There’s no single right answer for what to do with your money. It depends on what you want your money to do for you.

      1. this is the hard part. I’m mid-20s, I don’t know! I guess I want to do now what gives me the most options for the future. I could see myself buying a condo/house ~30. I don’t want kids but that could change. No plans to leave biglaw anytime soon but I’m also not gunning for partner. I just want the option that will give me the most return on my money, and I don’t mind it being tied up in something – I have good job security/enough savings if something happens.

         1. I think the biggest gift you can give future you, then, is keep your cost of living relatively low, ensure you have a nice emergency fund, and perhaps start a rainy day/future fund too (for a future home or other major purchase). Living (considerably) beyond the level you have set for yourself may create a golden handcuffs situation in the future where you have less mobility if what you want in the future changes.

            Congrats — paying off loans this early really opens up your options!

            1. +100 When I was in BigLaw people referred to this cushion as their F you money. Not everyone who did this quit, but it makes the stress a lot more bearable if you know that you have the option of walking away at any time. And if you stay and make partner, or move in-house, then you have a nice amount saved up for a down payment, a sabbatical, or early retirement if you decide you want to.

         2. Why would you wait until ~30 to buy a condo/house if you can do so sooner?

            Congrats on the loans. I also paid mine off when I was a third year associate.

   5. It depends on your plan for the next 5-10 years. If you are saving for a house, put the money for a deposit in a savings account or CD. If you are saving long term (and eventually want to get out of law and retire early), put it in an index linked stock fund (Vanguard is great – if you have more than 10k you can get the admiral class of shares and pay very low fees. I use VFIAX for my savings.). Know with the money you have in stocks that the amount will fluctuate, but if you keep adding to the fund you’ll use dollar cost averaging. The stocks have been down lately and I’ve been squirreling away more money to my stock fund than to my mortgage, figuring they will go up at some point, but it may be a long time, so this is definitely not for money you intend to use in the short term.

   6. If you are above the limits for a traditional IRA to be deductible, it makes more sense to contribute to a Roth IRA. It will grow and be withdrawn tax-free. No upfront deduction, but you aren’t getting that anyway. Another advantage is if you ever need to withdraw principal, you can without the penalty like a traditional IRA. Also, if you don’t see a need for the money right away, get out of a savings account and look into a robo-advisor– low fees and better long term returns that what you will get in a savings account. Betterment is good, I use them personally, although I think their models can be aggressive so don’t be afraid to pick an investment mix that is right for your personality, instead of what they think you should do based on your age. For instance, I’m pretty risk-adverse, in my late 30’s, but it tells me the right mix is 90 stocks/ 10 bonds. I know that level of volatility would drive me crazy and stress me out, so I stick with a 50/50 mix.

      1. OP sounds like she is single, so as a Biglaw 3rd year she is wellllll above the income limits for contributing to a Roth. The discussion above under the first reply is the correct regarding her ability to make a nondeductible traditional IRA contribution and then convert to Roth.

         I’ll add the caveat though that the IRS doesn’t like this “backdoor” approach and there is a decent amount of professional guidance that recommends waiting one month at a minimum (and some more conservative advisers say at least a year) before converting to avoid the IRS applying the step transaction doctrine to treat the initial contribution and immediate conversion as a single transaction, which would be an impermissible Roth contribution. You end up paying a little bit of capital gains tax (assuming the account balance went up, which is a big if in the current short-term market) but it’s worth it to CYA and you still get significant benefits from converting to the Roth at a slightly later date.

         1. Yes, we do this each year and we always wait most of a year in between opening the account and converting it.

   7. I’m in the asset management industry and have my money in Betterment. I seriously can’t recommend it enough. I used to be in Vanguard index funds, but Betterment allocates your money for you into very low-cost ETFs (half of which are Vanguard anyway) and then they adjust your allocations over time depending on the investment model that you’re in. Here’s a good rundown of exactly why it works so much better than investing your money on your own or putting it with a financial adviser — http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/11/04/why-i-put-my-last-100000-into-betterment/. In short, the fees are super low, they handle your allocations in a way that makes sense, and they do tax loss harvesting which especially helps when you’re in a high tax bracket.

5. I have some questions about salon etiquette, because I’m trying to figure out if I’m a good client or a jerk.

   On the one hand I’m always on time, in fact I’m usually early (a little early if I’m walking to the salon, super early if I take public transit because the subway isn’t always reliable), I tip well, and I’m generally polite.

   But I’m also very particular about how my hair is cut. I try to be nice about it, but I like a very simple, blunt bob – no angles, no layers, no texture cut into the ends. I worry that stylists bristle at this since I’m not asking for their input and not giving them any leeway to do what they think it best for my hair, and I worry that in doing so I’m ultimately disrespecting them. And I’ve also heard it’s rude to tell a stylist what you don’t want, it’s negative and unpleasant, you should focus on what you do want and let them take it from there.

   Last time I got my hair cut I brought a book to read, but the whole time I worried that the stylist thought I was being rude and antisocial.

   Finally, I go to multiple people. One for cuts, the other for color. Is that rude? My stylist doesn’t have a shade of red I like and when she tried to mix me one it came out mostly brown, so I found someone with a red I liked, all ready to go, and my colorist likes doing layered razor cuts which I have no interest in. Am I being rude, going to two different people? Should I find a place that will give me both the cut AND color I like?

   1. You are fine. Relax.

   2. You’re not being rude.

   3. Are you kidding me with this nonsense? You are paying them!!!! You get to tell them exactly what you do and do not want, be as social or quiet as you want, and hire whomever you want.

      Be on time, polite, pay them, and tip.

      1. Just because I’m paying someone doesn’t mean I’m allowed to be disrespectful.

         1. Srsly??? What part of my response said it was ok to be disrespectful? I specifically said you have to be polite. It is not disrespectful to read a book or tell them how to cut you hair.

            Do you want to go through life with hair you don’t like making boring small talk because you can’t handle speaking up for yourself at a salon? Or do you want to get a grip and realize what you are doing is completely fine and move on.

         2. Sure, but nothing that OP stated she was doing is disrespectful.

         3. Are you rude to them or do you just nicely ask for the service to be rendered the way you want it? You’re allowed to trade your money for the goods and services you actually want. That’s not rude in and of itself.

         4. I think it would be a little weird if I were a hairdresser and my client was sitting reading a book the entire time. Maybe not rude exactly, but certainly antisocial. I agree that you’re a paying client and entitled to do it, of course, but I have personally never seen anyone doing that while getting their hair done. Nails? Yes. But not hair. I also feel like hairdressers spend literally hours on their feet the entire day and it makes their day go faster if I engage in conversation (more fun for both of us that way).

            1. If I was a hairdresser, I’d be relieved if I didn’t have to pretend to care about the lives of each and every client. Different strokes.

            2. Okay, that’s good to know! No book next time. Unless . . . could I have one with me and take it out if if they don’t make conversation? Or should I take the initiative to make small talk with them?

            3. I don’t think you’re obligated to make small talk with your hair dresser. Two Cents may like it, which is nice for her, but I think “more fun for both of us that way” is the key phrase in her comment. It’s not more fun for plenty of people, including plenty of hair dressers.

            4. Jitterbug, you are way overthinking this. It’s a haircut. Just sit there and relax.

            5. OMG stopppppp. Just say “oh I hope you don’t mind, I just can’t put this book down!”

               Why did you even ask?

            6. There are a lot of articles out there about all the things we do to annoy our hairdressers and how important it is to be a good client, and since this person can make or break my look I’d rather not do anything to make her angry.

            7. This is not weird at all. I tell my stylist (who I’ve been going to for years), that my salon time is my decompressing time. Sometimes I just want to be with my trashy magazines. And she gets it and doesn’t care a whim. She gets tired of making small talk all the time too!

               Also, OP, honestly, you need to worry less about what service providers think of you. If you are polite and state your expectations, that’s part of the worker rendering the service. If they don’t want your business they’ll tell you.

               And there’s nothing wrong with going to two different people either! You do you. Politely.

            8. I always bring my kindle and read the entire time. In fact, I did it just last week.

         5. Yeah, but you’re not being disrespectful. Your hairstylist does not actually own you. Once I complained about not liking how a particular stylist did my hair and my dad reminded me that I was the client, not the other way around.

            I can’t tell if you would like someone more interactive or not. My stylist always asks me how I would like it layered, how I want the ends cut, etc. I do think you might do better with someone like that, but on the other hand, she likes to talk while she is doing my hair (and since you’re worried about reading a book), perhaps you would find that annoying.

            Anyway, bottom line: it sounds like you’re fine. Relax.

            1. I had a stylist who liked to talk, and we usually got along well. I could talk to her about a lot of things. But lately she’s been getting on my nerves, making rude comments about how gross Americans are, and getting more and more aggressive trying to sell me products. Other stylists don’t really talk that much.

            2. Why, for the love of God, are you spending money on someone you find rude and unpleasant?

            3. Well I may not, anymore. I got a cut at a new place I liked, which charged less money, so I might go there more often now.

            4. My only concern with reading a book is you might wind up holding your head crooked or slowly starting to keep looking down in order to read, which could be annoying to the stylist when she is actively cutting.

               I don’t think you are obligated to make small talk though, and I certainly think a book or magazine is fine when you are just sitting there waiting (like during a color treatment).

               My happy medium to avoid small talk once the cut has started is just to close my eyes and say “I’ve had a long week so I’m just going to close my eyes and enjoy the quiet where no one is making any demands of me. Let me know if you need me to move my head or look at anything”

               Most of the time, that seems to be fine with my stylist, although occasionally it means she chatters to another stylist or another client – which could be fine, or could be on a topic that grates on my nerves – but at least I am not expected to keep up with the patter and contribute. I’m a super introvert though, so I don’t want to be drained while at the salon – I want that to be my me time, and for me, me time is quiet time.

               FWIW, when I do pay money to go to a salon (and not just get my hair trimmed at a Best Cuts type of place), I’ve been going to an Aveda salon where they do things like give you a relaxing scalp massage and/or hand and arm relaxation massages – so I think they are totally fine with my “I want this to be quiet and relaxing, not chatter-y” desires.

         6. It’s your hair. You are the one who has to live with what it looks like, not them.

   4. Nothing you’re describing is unusual at all, don’t worry. Relax. I’m very controlling about my haircuts too.

   5. I agree, relax. FWIW, I often am not very social at salon appointments. I like to go to the salon and relax and zone out. Of course, I am polite, and I usually just say (truthfully) that I’ve been working hard lately and am really tired. My current stylist totally gets that and waits for me to initiate small talk. Now that the pressure is off, and I’ve gotten to know her a bit over the last few years, I’m actually much chattier.

6. Really gross TMI question to follow…

   I have been dating someone for about six months and stay at his house every weekend. When I am around him, I cannot go #2. At all. Even when we go to public places with public restrooms. By the end of the weekend, I feel sick and miserable.

   Obviously the problem is psychological – as soon as I go home I am totally better – but it’s not consciously so. I’m not embarrassed or afraid he’ll notice. I even told him about the problem in hopes ‘coming out’ would solve it. Nope. I just don’t get the urge to do it, despite desperately wanting (and trying) to.

   I have had similar problems while traveling. We are about to leave on a week-long vacation, and I am worried this problem will make me feel bloated and miserable the whole time. Not to mention uncomfortable in a bikini!

   I try eating lots of fiber/veggies, taking a psyllium husk supplement, eating prunes, drinking water, etc. Nothing works. Do I need to preemptively start taking a laxative? Does anyone have any suggestions? The rest of the week, I am completely regular. I don’t think this is a physical issue, but a mental one.

   1. just commiseration. my friend has the same problem (even told her BF about it too) and went through a weeklong euro vacay with him without #2. she basically just tries to avoid spending 2 days in a row with him. maybe experiment with the laxative before your vacay and see if it helps? I could see it going awry if youre not used to it beforehand.

   2. This used to be me 100%. I could not for the life of me go on a vacation or in front of boyfriends. I thought I was destined to a life of c*nstipation. However, time helped with that, and now I have no problem going when he is around–we also live together now. I still have some issues with traveling when I am around others. One thing that works somewhat on vacation is making time for myself very early in the morning to “work” — aka I go somewhere by myself, drink extremely strong coffee, sit with my legs on a chair scrunched by me (I know this is extremely weird) and play on my computer or do work. Sometimes, this coffee/awkward position is enough to get the ball rolling.

   3. Ugh, that has to feel miserable. No concrete advice, but I don’t think I would recommend a laxative. Those things can be really unpredictable. If you need to take something, try Colace, which is a softener, but doesn’t make you “go” uncontrollably.

   4. Look into biofeedback treatments. Never tried them, but they’re supposed to be helpful and you can avoid taking laxatives.

   5. This happened to me for a time with my now-husband. It wasn’t when we first started dating, oddly, but it was when we started to get serious. We were long distance at the time, but I would end up taking a gentle laxative during some of our visits together (trying to time it so it was convenient, though that is sort of hard). I have no idea why it happened – we have always been a “bathroom door open” couple (TMI right back atcha) so it wasn’t something he had never seen before.

      I did talk to my gyno about it, and she had no advice beyond saying that I should take a laxative if needed. I would not go more than 2-3 days without #2 – too uncomfortable and I cannot imagine it is healthy. If I were you, I’d probably try to plan a low-key day mid-trip when you could take a laxative and focus on relaxing with your bf for the rest of the time.

      It went away on its own (before we moved in together, phew).

   6. I take a stool softener when traveling. It really helps.

   7. This happens every single time I’m on vacation, and I can’t go in public bathrooms. Personally I need time alone in the hotel room when everyone else is off doing something else (so I don’t feel pressured or like someone is waiting on me) to go.

   8. Oh, this used to be me. Well, still is when I travel. If it’s just a weekend, I still do not go and I don’t worry about it. If it’s an extended trip, I’ve found it helpful if I wake up early and get some exercise in, usually running or some other aerobic activity.

   9. I’m similar. What works for me is to say I’m off to shower turn on the water & then go. this takes the pressure off me somehow and on day 2 or 3 i usually have no problem. For day 1-2, i don’t bother worrying about it.

      1. DH has hangups about the deuce, and after 15 years together still runs the shower when he goes.

      2. Haha this is me too! The “shower” is the perfect excuse to get over the mental hurdle. Also- to OP my only advice is that hopefully if the relationship continues to be serious something will happen (for example you get sick/ he gets sick) that requires one of you to be gross and the other to help and then that should help you get over the mental block with him!

   10. My (tongue-in-cheek) advice: go on vacation to a developing country. Eat slightly questionable food. Enjoy the newfound urgency to “#2” that removes all inhibitions, both physical and mental.

       (Really, though – I used to have a fairly similar problem, then I did a round-the-world backpacking trip and it MORE than cured any mental hangups I had around this…)

   11. The first time I went on vacation with Gentleman Friend I brought a little bottle of Poopourri (google it if you don’t know what it is) and laughingly explained to him that it might be a good idea for us both to use it since we were in such close quarters. Don’t know if this will help you since you’ve been upfront about it already, but maybe worth a try. Also, coffee is helpful for me. And stool softener as a last resort.

       1. Uhhhhhhhh I don’t have my own but every time I’ve traveled with my closest guy friend/a group we’ve had this and it’s a lifesaver. Including the time we had 1 bathroom for 5 of us in a house in Iceland.

7. Apologies for the immediate threadjack.

   I lateraled to my current firm six months ago and have suddenly been inundated with interview requests. Some of them are for jobs that I applied for before taking this job, and others are through networking/recruiters. I like my current job but would be willing to leave for the right offer. My concern is that if I leave this job for a new one, I’ll be stuck there for a while so that I don’t become the girl who jumps around too much. So my question to you ladies is this: What are some of the things that you wouldn’t be able to turn down at a new job?

   1. I think other opportunities are a terrible reason to move. Let’s say you had gotten zero requests. Would you be dissatisfied and looking to move after only 6 months? If not stay put. Save your one short stint job for when you actually need it.

8. Could I possibly give my husband a bedtime?

   I know it sounds maniacal, but I’ve been struggling with insomnia lately. It seems I can’t fall asleep without him in the bed, which I know sounds silly, but there it is. I go to bed around 10:30/11 and he’s usually in bed around 12:30/1. It’s not that I need him for comfort, it’s more that I’m awake wondering when he’s coming to bed/ looking at the clock/ listening for him. Would it be absolutely insane to tell him he needs to go to bed when I do? I’ve tried other things like screen-free pre-bed, lavender satchels, meditation, etc. and know I need to address the underlying issue, but in the meantime, bedtime?

   Those of you with different bedtimes from your partner, do you have this issue and how do you address it?

   1. I have had this problem when going through rough times in my life. Husband comes to lie down with and snuggle me until I go to sleep, then he goes back to whatever he was doing. During not rough times, we just go to bed and get up at different times, no problem

   2. Although I do think it’s insane to tell him he has to go to bed when you do (especially with a two hour difference), would it work for him to go to bed with you and then get back up, assuming you fall asleep pretty quickly? It’s important to me to go to bed with my husband the majority of the time, so I’d probably try it if I stayed up later than he did, especially if the insomnia was a short-term thing.

   3. You need to relax. I read the Six Week Insomnia Cure and it basically says that you’re stressed about not falling asleep, so you can’t sleep, so you stress about not falling asleep. That’s all entirely in your head and not your husband’s fault. You need a new internal monologue for falling asleep that doesn’t involve wondering when he’s coming to bed/listening for him.

      1. What do you recommend in terms of a new internal monologue? This is a great idea, but I am not really sure what it would look like. Reciting state capitols? Prayer? Counting backwards?

         1. I do the 7-4-8 breathing thing, and I listen to podcasts while falling asleep so my internal monologue is outsourced to Sara Koenig.

         2. Try the 4-7-8 breathing technique. Google it.

            1. Jinx (sort of)

         3. I have a real night owl husband as well and I used to find it distressing. Instead I began to replace my anxiety about “where is he and when is he coming to bed” with comforting mental images of him sitting under the lamp in our living room reading, or happily puttering around the house. I focused on how nice it was to know that he was nearby and happy.

      2. When I had brief bouts of insomnia, my friend told me about a color meditation podcast that has you focus on colors of the rainbow starting at red. I usually fell asleep by yellow. I used the podcast once or twice but then use it if i’m travelling and my bodyclock is wonky.

         I was also told to try yoga before trying medication. Sometimes a couple childposes and a savasanas (sp?) would get my body in shut down go to sleep mode.

         Also, when I have that insomnia, I cut off caffeine after noon, try to throw in exercise during the day so I’m tired and my muscles beg for sleep.

   4. Yes completely bonkers. He’s not the reason you can’t sleep, insomnia is. Try other things like taking Unisom or seeing your doctor, not causing problems in your marriage because you’re trying to rely on lavender sachets.

      1. +1

   5. I’m an early bird (when I’m on my own, I’m in bed with a book by 8:30, asleep by 9:30) and my husband was a night-owl when we started dating. We now go to sleep around 10:15 – 10:30.

      Things that help: a wind-down alarm, taking a shower together in the evening, and winding down in a dimly lit room. Can he come and snuggle with you while you start to doze? Or read while you sleep? Occasionally my husband doesn’t feel tired and he’ll snuggle and then read or relocate to the sitting room for tv. 80% of the time, he realises he’s actually ready for bed.

   6. Can you tell him exactly what you wrote here? It’s totally reasonable to have trouble falling asleep if you know you will be awakened by someone else an hour and a half later. If you can’t agree on a single bedtime and he’s not willing to get into bed at the same time as you and read a Kindle or do something else that doesn’t disturb you, can you try sleeping in separate rooms?

   7. I need my husband for comfort. But he sleeps way later than me. So we made an arrangement. He would lie down with me for 10 – 15 mins and usually I fall asleep within that time. Then he goes back to whatever he was doing.

      1. I wouldn’t say I *need* my husband for comfort, but I do like the time we spend together before I go to bed, so this is what we do.

   8. DH tucks me in and then I go to sleep. He stays up very very late (like 4 am) so I just go to sleep after he tucks me in.

      1. Same!

   9. I had a similar problem – I need to go to bed by 9:30 to get up on time for work, but I had trouble falling asleep because my husband would have the light on in the other room (we have a tiny apartment so there isn’t much space for privacy), he’d come back and shower and the water in the pipes would be SO loud, and it just wasn’t working. I asked if he could please finish showering by 8:30 (knowing it would take him longer since he’s so slow) and then kiss me goodnight, tuck me in, etc. so it’s more of a signal that everything is done for the night. It helped, but I honestly do sleep best when we are lying there next to each other and talking with the lights out. Maybe something like that (signalling when it’s sleep time) would help you.

   10. I have this problem. We have talked it through many times. He makes an effort to go to bed with me on days when he doesn’t have to stay up late working. ON those days, we sometimes sleep separately so I’m not doing the “when is he coming” thing.

       1. I have this problem too! I stay awake because I’m waiting and expectant, even if I try not to be.

          I just started taking melatonin to help me sleep. It’s been working and my dreams tend to be fun and vivid when I take it.

   11. We could trade. You and I, and your and my husbands, are on similar schedule. I can no longer fall asleep when he comes to bed with me!

       1. Yes, my issue is that we keep shifting around – so sometimes I get used to going to bed by myself and I have a “what are you doing here, this is my alone time!” ungracious thought, and other times I am lying in bed thinking “when is he coming to bed, I’m lonely!”

          I think demanding he stick to a bedtime isn’t great for your relationship, but I definitely think it is a good idea within your relationship to ASK if he could please consider shifting his bedtime to join you in bed, or to “tuck you in” as other commenters suggested. You are also in the right to ask if he is the kind of person who doesn’t’ go to bed quietly – if he’s thumping around hanging up his clothes, turning on the closet light, etc and waking you after you finally drifted off. My husband and I have rarely been on the same sleep schedule, but we try to be as respectful as possible of not waking the other when they are sleeping (until 7:00 in the morning on weekdays, at which time it is “lights on, get your butt out of bed, kids are up and we both need to be moving” – neither of us like it, but we both acknowledge that that is a fair expectation).

       2. This is me too. I always go to bed first and fall asleep, so his snoring doesn’t bother me. If we have a night when I stay up late or he comes to bed early I have a heck of a time falling asleep. Thankfully it doesn’t happen often, so I don’t say anything, but he does know it’s an issue and does his best to wait until I’m asleep before coming to bed.

   12. I just had an argument with my husband last night about this issue. 95% of the time we go to bed together, but the other 5% of the time he has to work late and it screws up my sleep. Sometimes I actually ask that he not come to bed for the hour after I turn off the lights – that helps me to feel like I’m not lying there waiting for him, which in turn helps me go to sleep. Alternatively, if I feel insomnia/anxiety coming on, I sleep in the guest room.

       1. 95% of the time is perfect. Why are you fussing about 5%. He is working late. Think a bit about that.

          1. Because insomnia really sucks? I’m not fussing at you, so maybe calm down.

   13. My husband goes to sleep earlier than me and can be very controlling about it. Any lights, even peeking under a door or my dimmest cell phone screen, cause him to complain that he can’t sleep. It drives me nuts because nothing short of me coming to bed exactly at the same time as him will make him happy.

       Of course, if he’s engrossed in a movie or a book, he sometimes chooses to go to bed later. I get resentful because I’m supposed to respect his need to be asleep at 10pm on the nose, but he’s pretty random about it when it’s his choice to stay up.

       So basically, controlling = not good for marriage. Don’t be this person. Put on your big girl panties and learn how to go to sleep on your own.

       1. eep, someone’s projecting.

          1. Really, you think someone who is thinking about “giving my husband a bedtime” isn’t controlling?

             Ok…

             1. OP seems ambivalent and conflicted about it, so, no I don’t think she’s controlling.

                But this might be a good moment for you to take your last paragraph directly to your husband, whom you describe as controlling, hard to please, and who makes you resentful.

   14. As soon as we can afford it, I’m getting separate bedrooms. I love my SO, but I also love sleep, and if I don’t get it, then I’m cranky.

9. Ladies, i am fairly busty and my go-to sports bra doesn’t carry my size ( I lost weight) at present. I need your advice on the best bras for running. Bonus points for shipping outside the US.

   1. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GCPPMLO?colid=BNVIRZQCU9R7&coliid=IN9GTN3KA8PIV&redirect=true&ref_=br_it_dp_o_nS_ttl&vs=1

      That’s what I wear. It’s comfortable, doesn’t feel tight, yet nothing moves at all when I run. I’m a 32C if it’s relevant.

   2. I know not everyone is a fan of Lululemon, but I am a big fan of the Ta-Ta Tamer III. I am a 38DD, and nothing moves when I work out in that bra.

   3. Moving Comfort Fiona. Best one I’ve ever tried, in a huge range of sizes, relatively cheap, lots of fun colors, and awesome support for my large chest.

      1. Thanks, ladies.

      2. I second moving comfort!

      3. I also really like this one, but given my climate I also need a lot of racerbacks to wear under tank tops. The moving comfort Juno and Rebound Racer are great for support and having several adjustment mechanisms that both allow you to get the right fit and to get out of it without popping a shoulder.

   4. Any Wacoal sports bra with underwires in it. Super comfortable and supportive.

      1. Seconded. I swear by Wacoal.

   5. Make sure you get an encapsulation style bra (which the reeks above are) which is more of the ‘locked into place’ style versus a compression style aka ‘smash ’em down’ bra.

      Compression works well for smaller busted ladies, but most ladies with larger busts NEED encapsulation style.

      I like my Moving Comfort Fiona, Panache sports bra and a Lululemon model they no longer carry.

   6. Panache. Love love love. They’re designed for full busts. Pricey, but your girls aren’t going anywhere!

   7. Enell, moving comfort, Champion (from the Hanes outlet store) have all been good for me.

10. Hi all – I’m the anon poster from yesterday about the guy I was dating being on OKC. Thanks for all the advice! After a lot of thought, I decided to end things with him without confronting him about the whole OKC thing. I enjoyed our relationship while it lasted, but didn’t appreciate certain things (like him not ever wanting to talk about our relationship, but saying we were definitely exclusive). More than anything, I didn’t want him to make me into “that” girl – that girl who brings up the status of the relationship, that girl who needs to know where they stand, that girl who confronts her bf about being on OKC and c-ndoms on the nightstand.

    My friends think I’m crazy and that I’m overly proud (I mean they’re happy I ended things with him, but think I should have confronted him). Does anyone find that their pride gets in the way of their relationship?

    1. Your pride is not what got in the way of that relationship. Your boyfriend continuing to prowl for other women while dating you is what got in the way of that relationship.

       1. Seriously. If you two were “definitely exclusive,” why was he still on a free dating website? He should have suspended his account, at the very least. It’s definitely NOT you; it’s him.

    2. If I were you I’d at least ask about these things once. If you’re satisfied with his response, then I’d reevaluate. If not, break up. If the issue is that you’re not totally digging him anyway, break up. You asking once about one thing is an adult way to handle the problem, it’s not making you into “that girl.” Honestly, why wouldn’t you be curious about those things? An adult male would realize that. Don’t feel the pressure to be the “cool girl”

       1. +1.
          Seriously, why do guys think it’s “annoying” to talk about these very real things? I’m glad you ended things with him, but if he couldn’t handle those talks like an adult in the first place, he shouldn’t be judging you at all.

       2. If you aren’t comfortable talking about normal, real relationship issues, you will likely not be successful in the long-run with sustaining a serious relationship. Ask me how I know.

          If you weren’t into him, cool. Totally reasonable reason to break-up with someone. If you only ended it because you didn’t want to talk about something you were concerned about in a mature a reasonable way because you were concerned you might get labeled? Not so cool. Now, there is a whole separate issue about why you would want to date anyone who would talk about you badly behind your back, but you didn’t get there with this one.

          I mean listen, this guy sounds like a dud, so NBD on nipping this one in the bud, but perhaps take some time to think about why you are hesitant to discuss issues that concern you. Was it really just THIS dude, or is there something else there that may be causing you to hesitate. Trust me, talking about serious issues is hard, but the more you do it the more comfortable you get and it weeds out the immature jackasses and people who are incompatible with what you want early on.

    3. A woman who asks her supposedly exclusive boyfriend about where they stand and confronts him about suspicious c*ndoms is not being “that girl”. She’s asking for a real relationship and is completely entitled to do so. Don’t settle for a guy who won’t give you (at least) that.

    4. I would say that pride got in the way of my relationship until my current one. I wasn’t comfortable being vulnerable in front of the other guys I dated and, with the benefit of hindsight, that was very telling of the success of those relationships.

    5. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for you not to confront him. He’s not the guy for you, so you’re ending it. It doesn’t sound like pride is getting in the way of your relationship – the relationship is over. If you were interested in continuing the relationship because the dude has redeeming qualities, but you broke up with him instead of confronting him, I would say perhaps you are in denial or avoiding the issue. But in this case it sounds like you are being perfectly reasonable and doing what is best for you.

       Incidentally, I had something similar happen to me. I was in a long distance relationship with a guy I met on OKC. We both said we deactivated our profiles when we became exclusive. After dating for a year and a half, I got a funny feeling. When I googled his preferred user name, I found his very active OKC profile – complete with a picture of him that I had taken during our relationship. It was not linked to his facebook, and his OKC profile showed that he responded frequently and had been active within the last couple of days.

       I told him what I had found. He didn’t deny it. I’m now married to the love of my life, who I met a couple weeks after the whole drama with my ex.

    6. You should make whatever decision you want regarding ending the relationship, but disabuse yourself of the notion that there’s something wrong with being “that girl,” if being “that girl” means:

       ” that girl who brings up the status of the relationship, that girl who needs to know where they stand, that girl who confronts her bf about being on OKC and c-ndoms on the nightstand.”

       These are all REALLY reasonable things to do. You can and SHOULD advocate for yourself in a relationship and you deserve to have your needs addressed and met. Don’t let pop culture/general shaming of women addressing their own needs put you off from doing that. I’m not saying ask him about the relationship once a week, but there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to know where you stand.

    7. Dude. Listen to yourself. You’re worried that confronting your cheating boyfriend about his behaviour makes you controlling and crazy? He is the douche canoe and your friends are the crazy ones, not you.

    8. You were together, what, 3 months? I don’t think that length of relationship warrants a confrontation or discussion, it’s fine to say “hey, we are not relationshipping compatibly, let’s move on” and just move on. It would also have been fine if you had wanted to confront him about the stuff that was bothering you, but given what you’ve added here (about his reluctance to have relationship discussions generally), I don’t think you would’ve gotten anything out of it other than frustration, and since you’re breaking up with him anyway, why not just give yourself the peace of letting it go without all the high drama?

       (Also, I 100% agree with other posters re: you not being “that girl.” Anybody who makes you feel crazy for wanting to have totally normal conversations about your needs and concerns within a relationship is a bad potential partner and should be moved to the “ex” list post-haste.)

    9. Thanks all! I agree – I need to advocate for myself in a relationship and hope I will in my next one. I think the issue here (in addition to him being a cheating jerk) is that I didn’t want to, which in and of itself, says a lot.

       1. FWIW, a few months ago I ended a 9 month relationship, a relationship during which I never confronted the guy I was dating about a number of things he did that made me feel completely unimportant to him because I didn’t want to be “that girl.” I fully understand the tendency to do that! But I’m dating someone else now and he doesn’t ever make me feel like I can’t say something because if I do I will be “that girl.” Men who don’t treat you like crap are out there, and we shouldn’t let ourselves put up with the ones who do!

11. Thinking ahead to a fancy summer evening party (rather than focusing on work)…

    How would you style this dress? Earrings/no necklace? Necklace/no earrings? Hair up or down, curly or straight?

    https://dtpmhvbsmffsz.cloudfront.net/posts/2015/05/27/5565dd20c7dcbf4556015985/s_564796168f0fc45d98002984.jpg

12. The two year anniversary of my father-in-law’s death is coming up in early March. I usually wait for my husband to bring up his father and trust that he’ll come to me when he wants to talk. Is there anything you all recommend I say/do on the anniversary? I want him to know I love him and thinking about him. Everything I think to say somehow seems inadequate though.

    1. My husband lost his father early in our relationship. About a week before the anniversary, I ask him how he’s doing and what he would like to do on the day of. Often we look at some pictures to remember happy times, go for a quiet walk somewhere and light a candle as my husband is not into churches. He has a particular candle that he lights on the anniversary or at other times when he’s missing his dad. I think the main thing is just to acknowledge that it is coming up and you want to support him in his wishes.

    2. Follow his lead. I would just plan to make yourself available that day as much as feasible. By year 7, DH started to turn the anniversary into a time to talk about his dad and his memories (like an annual dinner where we celebrate his life), but before that he varied on whether he wanted to discuss it at all that day.

    3. My husband lost his father suddenly a year before we met. The loss was still very real and painful in the early years of our relationship (and still is to some degree). I think what he found most helpful was when I made it clear that I would be there for him for whatever he needed, no expectations. I’d bring it up now and say you’re happy to set aside (the day? the following Saturday if it’s on a weekday? the evening? are you willing to take the day off from work?) for whatever he wants to do, and that he doesn’t have to decide now what that is, but just that you wanted him to know you’re all his for that time.

13. Ok, so I have been planning a big two-week foreign vacation with a friend for several months. The trip is in two weeks. She’s a contractor, and yesterday got offered a HUGE contract, both money and potential future contacts-wise…but only if she’ll cancel the vacation. Apparently they are that inflexible on start date for a three month contract.

    I’m hugely disappointed–I wouldn’t have planned this vacation on my own and I’m not at all excited to do it solo. At ALL. Not only am I an extrovert (so two weeks of solo travel with hardly anyone to talk to is my idea of hell) but the first place we are going I’m super uncomfortable being a single woman traveling alone (the other two are not great and I’ll likely sit in my room more than I otherwise would, but wouldn’t be totally undoable). This really ruins the vacation for me. Which is small beans compared to “I can afford to eat for the rest of the year if I do this contract”.

    She offered to pay to postpone the trip but (a) most of our costs are sunk already (flights and lodging are nonrefundable) and (b) the location wouldn’t be good weather wise in three months and (c) I just took a new job that starts after the trip and wouldn’t be able to take a two week vacation anytime soon.

    So my question is…what’s fair? What’s right? She want to do something to help but I’m not sure what would work. Help????

    1. Is there anyone else who can go with you?

    2. Sorry – that really sucks. Is there any way someone else could take her place on the trip?

       If you end up not going at all, I think it would be fair for her to reimburse you for some portion of the costs….but if you can afford to and it’s a great friend, it might be nice to be able to tell her “don’t worry about it, things happen, congrats on your big gig, you can buy me a really fancy drink to apologize.”

       I also think it’s worth it to call everyone (airline, hotel, etc.) and see what you might be able to get back….sometimes even with nonrefundable costs, I’ve had luck getting back some credit or something.

       1. Yeah, I was super upset last night but I don’t really expect her to turn it down for a variety of reasons, and would HAAATE if she did turn it down and then had trouble getting work when we were back!!

          I’m not sure if refunding the money would be a great plan (I so need a vacation right now!) but maybe. She did also offer to pay for a friend to join me–I wasn’t sure if that was fair to her, but also don’t have many friends who can take a two week vacation on two weeks notice! That’s what sucks–if it were earlier, I could find someone or make alternate plans much more easily.

          1. Can you have more than one friend “cover” for her – like, say, one person joins you for week one and someone else joins you for week 2? Or a different friend meets you in each destination?

          2. “She did also offer to pay for a friend to join me–I wasn’t sure if that was fair to her, but also don’t have many friends who can take a two week vacation on two weeks notice! ”

             Just take her up on that and try to find someone. It’s far and away the best solution – most costs are sunk, so the additional marginal cost of having a friend join you are small.

             Also, even if a friend can’t get two weeks off, you could have someone join you for the part where you really don’t want to be alone.

             1. +1 If this happened, I’d take my mom (who is retired) or one of my siblings (who are still students). Is there anyone like that in your life who wouldn’t need to clear a 2 week vacation with work?

    3. Can you research some organized day tours to join so you won’t be on your own, if safety and others to talk to are important? You might even meet up with people to extend to dinner plans too that way

       1. I have always found that it is super easy to meet people this way when traveling alone.

          1. +1 extrovert and I love traveling alone.

       2. +1 traveling alone is no where as lonely as it sounds. Can you share where you are going? Oftentimes the fear of traveling alone as a woman is a lot worse than the reality.

    4. Airline is probably not totally sunk – a $200-$300 change fee will get most of your airfare back. Then you’re tied to that airline in the future, but.

       That is super-hard, though. I’d be irritated too. You can’t really tell her not to take the gig, but she also committed this time to you (you committed it to each other). I’ve never done an international trip with just one friend, maybe partly for this reason. One person dropping out wouldn’t have been a dealbreaker in any of trips for the last year. I took one last-minute trip to visit a friend on work travel and I think he was already in country when I booked my ticket.

    5. Personally, me and my travel BFF would both have turned down the contract. She’s not available. I’d be furious. I would expect her to offer to pay me for all non-refundable costs I’ve paid for this trip out of her gigantic new contract. At the least, she should be paying the change fees to rebook your flights.

       Honestly this would be a huge breach of my relationship.

       1. But it sounds like this might be a career-changer in terms of contacts and experience…I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect her to turn it down. And it doesn’t sound like the OP expects her to either, despite the very understandable disappointment and frustration. I’m sure the friend feels terrible, and is disappointed about missing the trip as well. Life happens..not worth ruining a good friendship over, IMO.

       2. This sounds super high-maintenance, sorry. I could not imagine being furious with someone over a situation like this — it’s a vacation, for crying out loud! How on earth is that a “huge breach of a friendship”?

          1. It’s what works for us! We both agree on this. We are both single with very small families, and decided that we need to put our relationship ahead of work. We try to avoid the conflict but in this circumstance the relationship wins. I know it’s not for everyone but we like it!

       3. I agree. I’m always worried I’ll have to cancel my travel plans at the last minute. The couple of times I’ve traveled with a friend who would not want to travel alone, I bought travel insurance for both of us in case I had to cancel. It’s just not fair to expect someone else to bear the cost of my career decisions.

    6. Do you know anybody else(s) who could come on the trip? Perhaps the friend could then just pay that person’s flight and turn it into a win-win? You still get to go with a friend, the friend gets to make $, and third friend gets a cheap(er) unexpected trip.

       1. This is one thing she suggested. But not sure I can find anyone who can come–my friends don’t tend to have THAT flexible of jobs on short notice.

          …man, back when the economy was worse I had more unemployed friends who could do it :)

          1. Can you rebook somewhere else? Jump on an organized your last minute maybe, or a resort, or go some place you’re more comfortable alone?

    7. Airlines will normally let you change the flights (including changing the destination) for a change fee of about $200. Rebook it to some place where you’re comfortable traveling alone. If you really can’t travel alone book a group tour or go to a yoga retreat where you will have planned interaction with other people. Eat the cost of your half of the hotels on the original trip (but call them and explain the situation and you may get some money back). Your friend should pay for half the hotels, just like she would have if you’d taken the trip.

    8. I think she really has to take the contract, even though it sucks for you.

       Best option is she pays for someone to go with you, if you can find somebody.

       Otherwise, she reimburses you for the sunk costs and you go somewhere you are comfortable going alone, and chalk it up to taking one for the team. I agree with ezt it’s not worth ruining a good friendship over.

    9. There was a guy that got famous on reddit in a similar situation. He and his girlfriend broke up. He posted on reddit and craigslist and a bunch of places offering a free trip to any woman who had the same name so she could use the same ticket. Now that airlines are asking for addresses and dates of birth you might not get away with the same thing. But he found someone, they went and had a great time and a great story. Not a realistic suggestion but thought you might like the anecdote.

       1. I’ve found sometimes you can get the name changed on a ticket with a good enough story. Had this happen for an international ticket for my wedding in 2011. Cost me $25.

14. I’m looking for a new winter coat and would love some recommendations. I have the J Crew Lady Day with thinsulate and it’s the warmest winter coat I own but the lining has shredded beyond repair.* I’m looking for a winter coat that I can wear when it gets really cold (defined by me as sub-30). I work in a business casual office and go to court about 1x a month so I’d like it to look professional, but I also have a young child who will be walking next winter so I foresee playground/park outings in the cold. This might be a unicorn, so I’d be happy with a work and casual recommendation too!

    *Just a quick review since I know people have mentioned it before on here: I’m average-sized, but I often felt like the Hulk in the Lady Day. I think it’s the angle of the sleeves because I often felt like I didn’t have a full range of arm motion. I would have been swimming in a size up, so that wasn’t a solution for me. I’m disappointed because it’s not a particularly old coat, but the lining started to rip in the arms within the first few months after I received it. I’ve had it repaired multiple times, but there was only so much that could be done, and it’s not worth it to me to have the lining fully replaced.

    1. I have a Lady Day coat from years and years ago (so, the better quality days) and I STILL rip the lining. I’ve gotten it repaired twice. It always pulls out of the sleeve, specifically the one that I apparently always put on first. I don’t have huge shoulders but I think it’s just tight in the shoulders and sleeves. At least it took about six or more years for it to rip the first time, but it is frustrating.

       As for a recommendation, when I got a new job where I commute by bus in my freezing city, I bought a serious coat (shin length, hooded, filled with down) from Lands’ End. I also bought a wool coat there. They have held up beautifull y and look professional, too.

       1. +1

          Purchased lady day coat in 2008. It’s largely still going strong, but the lining in the arms started to rip about 2-3 years ago, starting in the shoulders. I have teensy shoulders and am a teensy person, these coats are just small. I should have gotten it repaired back then, but now it’s totally torn up in the arms. The rest of it still looks good.

    2. When it’s this cold out, forget about looking professional for that one court appearance a month and stick to buying a down parka. Warm, waterproof, practical.

    3. Honestly I love the tres parka from Patagonia and LLbean/Lands end have really nice looking dupes. I think it’s professional enough for court but also super warm.

       1. And I think the original is still on a good sale at Backcountry.

    4. I have a long down coat from Land’s End (similar to the Chalet Down Long Coat which is on major sale right now, but lucky sizes only) and I really love how warm and cozy it is. I wear it to my business casual office. I have worn it to court too. Most of the courthouses I argue in have a coat-check type area so that no one is really seeing my coat, but I wouldn’t be mortified if someone saw me in a relatively streamlined and dark-colored long down coat.

    5. I am an enormous fan of the Sun Valley down parka from Eddie Bauer. It’s amazing. I got it about a month ago. Comes in many sizes (I am a Tall, and it’s fantastic). This coat is sleek and very warm. It’s has a great ticket pocket (also fuzzy lined, so perfect for sunglasses). The fabric is thick and very waterproof (not thin nylon, prone to snags, like some down coats).

       I REALLY love it and it’s definitely professional (as down coats go). The only thing I dislike is that the hood comes off too easily (it snaps), but I just put a few sewing stitches on near 2 of the snaps and fixed it very easily. Easy fix.

       Seriously, I love this coat. It’s great for walking, waiting for transport, everything.

15. For those of you who aggressively paid off student loan debt (or mortgage…) in 3-5 years, what is your salary, how much did you pay per month for rent/living expenses, and how much did you pay on your loans per month?

    1. Paid off $175K in four years.

       Year 1: Graduated in May, started as Biglaw associate in October, paid the minimums (or close to the minimums) only because I was afraid I would lose my job (thanks, recession!) — so probably $1500/month on a salary of $145K.

       Years 2 and 3: Now more secure in job, took a staggered approach — paid $1000 extra per month on my highest-interest loan but continued to pay the minimums on the other loans (so, about $2500/total per month), then when that was paid off, continued to pay the full $2,500/month, just split amongst fewer loans… thereby making faster and faster progress. Salary was about $155 and $165K if I recall correctly; I also received bonuses each of these years (about $20K and $30K) and applied the majority of them to the loans (even though after taxes these numbers were much lower, I sucked it up and allocated the pre-tax amount to loans).

       Year 4: Realized I could really actually pay off all my loans within this year (salary about $170K), and increased my monthly payments to $3000. By August (so 3.5 years post graduation), I was down to about $18K remaining, and since we had plenty of emergency savings, I called Citi for my payoff balance and paid in full that month, on my birthday to boot :)

       Throughout this period, housing costs (mortgage + condo fee) were about $2200/month. I omitted my husband’s income from the above as he made significantly less than I did and was paying off his own (fortunately small) loans at the same time.

    2. I paid off $85 k in 3 1/2 years.

       Year one: I was making $60k and I paid the minimums on my loans (10 year repayment plan so around $600 I think) for half the year than paid around $1,000 a month for the other half (I was just figuring out my budget then). I lived at home so no housing costs.

       Year two: Making $80k ($125k with husband’s salary) and paying around $750 a month on loans for half the year and about $3,000 a month for the other half. Housing was $1,200 a month.

       Year three (and a half): Making $80k ($140k with husband’s salary) and paying $2,500-$4,000 a month on loans. Housing is $1,500 a month.

       1. I’m happy for you and this is not a dig, but I make 80K now with no husband and can only pay at most $2000 per month on loans. (Living on nothing basically). Just goes to show you how much easier things are with two incomes. :-(

          93K to go…

          1. Two incomes *and* lower expenses because there’s someone to share with. The poster above mentions that she didn’t include her husband’s income because it wasn’t going towards her loans, but I’m guessing it was contributing to household expenses…

          2. I don’t fully understand this calculation. I make 1.5 times that and my take home pay is about $6k/month, once you deduct my 401k contributions, FSA, and insurance premiums. There’s no way, on my salary, that I could do $4k in loan payments per month. Or even $2500.

             1. If you take home 6K per month (and 401k, insurance, FSA are already out), and you hypothetically spent 2500 on loan payments, then you’d have 3500 per month for everything else. Does your “everything else” cost more than 3500/month?

          3. yeah, the anecdotes of doing this without a SO splitting expenses seem few and far between.

    3. I paid off about $100k in 2.5 years. I knew I wasn’t going to stay in Big Law, and I prioritized the hell out of it. Shared a comparatively cheap (for NYC) studio apartment with my boyfriend, so my rent/bills came to like $1000/month; worked constantly so I barely had time to eat out/go out, but when I did my tastes were more for walking to a dive bar than cabbing to a hot club, so things stayed cheap; took only one trip because I was working all the time, and I paid for the flight with airline miles. Basically I just put all my money toward loans. I was making about $140k, got small bonuses ($5k? ha in my current life that would be a huge bonus!), but really I just kept living like a student and it wasn’t that hard to funnel ~$5k/month to my loans. I ended up quitting with only (“only”?) about $12k in savings plus a tiny bit in retirement accounts, but with a new job lined up. Paying off the loans gave me such a feeling of freedom! But the cost was that I definitely couldn’t enjoy the ~*fancy lawyer life*~ my colleagues did. Eh, fair trade in my book.

    4. Paid off $65k in 2 years.

       Year 1 salary =$175k
       Year 2 salary = $185k

       Rent was $950/month (I had a roommate). No car. Aside from rent, I spent $1500-2000/month. I didn’t put a specific amount towards loans every month. I just transferred whatever what extra in my checking account at the end of each month. I didn’t feel like I was particularly frugal. I just kept my fixed expenses really low, lived in a kind of dumpy apt, used the free gym at work, stayed in Airbnbs when traveling, and only bought clothing secondhand or on deep discount. I still lived in a great location, went out to eat a lot, and took a lot of weekend trips for weddings or to see friends.

       1. I read so many items where y’all have paid down huge student loans in only X years. While I am impressed by your pay-down rates, I’m also curious as to why y’all didn’t save this money *before* going to grad school. Were your jobs that worse-paying before the advanced degree? Are there truly no scholarships offered any more? Did you not want to wait to save up?

          I’ve looked at the Financial Aid page on my local community college website, and even there I have found at least five scholarships I’d qualify for, most of which just require an essay, and which would cover twice the tuition each year if I won each one. I know a CC is not in the same league at all as a graduate school, but surely the burden isn’t that much more onerous to find scholarships?

          Truly curious, not a troll.

          1. Certainly not all, but I think it’s fair to say most people went straight from college, so, nope, no savings in between.

          2. Celia – are you located in the US?

          3. Umm, there’s a world of difference between CC and grad school, and the quality of applicants is much much higher so more competition for fewer dollars.

          4. At least when I went to law school, there were far less scholarship opportunities available then there were for undergraduate school. I went straight through, but even if I had worked a couple years in between there is no way I could have found something with a high enough salary to save enough. I figured it was better to take out the loans, get a higher paying job, and start knocking them out.

          5. Also, many on this s i t e are lawyers, in which case, yes, there is typically a HUGE difference in what you can make before law school and what you can make afterwards. I’m a paralegal, planning on going to law school– I make $60k, and the poster above mentions making $145k as a first year BigLaw associate.

             1. I know there’s a huge difference between the levels of school. Honest I do.

                I wanted to go to graduate school in the early 90s. I found a gazillion scholarships in books in the reference section of the public library. I qualified for enough to make grad school doable but not completely free for the program I wanted.

                I thought such things must still exist on the internet. I just don’t hear much about people going for scholarships any more –just loans. I ask friends about it, and the most common response is “yeah, we didn’t really think about it” or the teen in question “didn’t get their act together.” I was really surprised –people seemed to prefer the debt to the burden of applying for scholarships.

             2. Is it possible that that’s outdated? I’ve never heard of anybody getting a scholarship like that for grad school. Even in undergrad, over 10 years ago, the whole check a list from a book from the library idea turned up exactly 0 I was eligible for.

             3. I should add that usually, the graduate school should be paying you. At least in some fields.

          6. My undergrad paid for me to complete my BA.

             I was a teacher in NYC living on a $39,000 salary for 2 years before law school, and on a frugal lifestyle, I saved up about $5,000, which, gets gobbled up by the law schools. Yes, there are scholarships and financial aid, but unless you have a compelling story or straight As (and I did pretty well in both undergrad and lawschool) those scholarships are hard to get for law school. That, and tuition is $45,000/year, with 3 years, you’re looking at a lot of money.

          7. Nope. This reminds me of when my dad tells me he could pay his tuition from his 1 summer job every year when he was in school. Simply not realistic anymore.

             I had dozens of small scholarships in my undergrad years. They helped but didn’t cover everything, but with 3 jobs every summer (full time, evening and weekend) and a part-time job during the school year I graduated with no debt.

             Directly into med school- VERY few scholarships available worth any significant amount of money and a lot of competition for them. Many of the smaller scholarships that (worth only a couple of hundred dollars) require a lot of work (make a video!) and require you to bug your mentors for reference letters (you don’t want to do this all the time as you need them to write you good letters when the stakes are high- ie. residency and grant applications- and you don’t want to exhaust their goodwill with requests) and your odds of success are low, so the payoff isn’t there. I didn’t apply for that many and didn’t get any.

             Add to this that tuition was several times higher in med school and I could no longer work outside of school because the hours were so long and classes continued through the summers (and frankly if you want to match to a good residency you need to spend the time producing research, etc)

    5. $157k in law school loans in my first 2 years of big law. I made market, husband made in the high 50s to $60k, starting 6 months after I began working. He made $20k before that. Our rent was $1900/month.

16. Currently a government contractor, going to interview for a job at another agency next week.

    The listing doesn’t specicify the starting rate and the pay band is massive – think GS-07 step 1 to GS-12 step 10. My current compensation is fair for my experience level and somewhere in the middle. I have my master’s and am not interested in the job at the GS-7 level. I have certed for jobs at the 11/12 level (including at this agency). When is it fair to ask about this? I don’t want to waste my time and theirs to realize I’m not taking a job for $43k a year.

    1. If you can say which agency and job role you’re applying for, I can be a lot more helpful. You’re unlikely to get less than at least mid grade 9 somewhere which is low to mid 50s. I probably wouldn’t be happy with that if I were you but I know this varies a TON by agency.

       1. I don’t want to get in to it that much and out myself. It’s within the department of defense, requires a clearance I already hold.

          I’d be happy with 9 with a couple steps or ideally an 11 step 1. It just doesn’t sound really defined so I have no idea what they’re looking to hire for. I’m guessing you wouldn’t want to put somebody with a master’s and 5 years of experience in a GS-7 role due not to just salary but also boredom? But what do I know.

       2. I’m more flexible on the 9 thing because I’ve been trying to get a foot in door with government. If this was a private sector equivalent I’d be more hard line.

    2. Now is the best time to negotiate for a higher amount, because afterward, people generally go up step by step, rather than having the opporutnity to skip steps.

    3. When you applied, did you have to indicate which grade you thought you qualified for?

       Also, you can ask the person who is setting up the interview whether HR has already rated your application for a certain grade or whether the hiring grade is still being determined (which would be better for you, so they can use your interview to help determine).

       You can also look at other postings at that agency to see whether a master’s degree will typically bump you to a 9 or to an 11 (it varies). Also look at whether it’s a ladder position which will promote automatically (these are denoted by the / in the listing, like GS 9/12). A ladder position means that you will automatically get promoted on your anniversary date assuming good performance – these are huge because you won’t have to reapply at a higher grade. It can be worth taking a job at a GS-9 if it ladders to a 12 automatically as opposed to an 11 where you’d have to reapply to get a 12 or a 13, because the hiring/application process can take months and months even for an internal promotion.

       1. The job is hiring under an AD pay scale – so it’s not like I qualified for a 9 or a 12 or whatever. The pay band listed is the exact amount from a 7/1 to a 12/10.

17. Can you cool it with the moderation Kat? Mine are all getting caught, Wildkitten is being moderated too (her posts turn up late and clearly had been made earlier). It’s really annoying!

    1. This is true.

18. Would you/have you ever “kicked off” someone form a treadmill by “enforcing” the 30-minute-when-it’s-busy rule? *Shudder*

    1. Once or twice in college. I think I wrote an email complaining about being kicked off while people were like, reading books on the machines and dicking around…

    2. I know it’s not fair, but the only time I’ve ever asked someone to “be courteous” about the 30-minute rule is when a person was nonchalantly reading a magazine and walking at a 2.0 for a solid 45 minutes.

       For the most part though, people have planned workouts- they’re not just spending an hour on the treadmill to be a jerk or to exclude others from using it. So I respect that sometimes a workout can run over 30.

       But if you’re training for a long run like a half or full marathon and need to do 60+ minute training runs, be considerate and try to run in off-peak hours.

    3. Yes I’ve kicked people off. The rule is there for a reason. If it’s a very busy gym, I’ll wait a bit, but if no one looks like they are finishing up, even after I stand in front of the row so they know someone is waiting, I ask. Idk why people feel entitled to break the rules.

    4. I think it depends how egregiously someone was violating it. I would not be able tapping them on the shoulder and asking how much longer they planned to be Iif they were already at the 35-40 minute mark. If it was 5-10 minutes more, no big deal. It might operate as a gentle reminder that they need to respect the rules.

    5. Not right AT 30 minutes usually. But if they’re all taken and someone is at like 45 minutes then I’ll ask how much longer they plan on, and maybe check if any of the other folks are just doing a 10 minute warmup or something. I generally don’t go at super busy times so it’s not often an issue.

    6. Follow up to this question: I was at my gym yesterday, and there is only one deadlift platform. These two guys were using it for forty-five minutes. We don’t have a 30-min rule for weights at my gym. Should I have said something?

       1. Is this something where you can ask to rotate in or share?

       2. Yes! There is only one deadlift platform in my gym too. “Do you mind if I work in for a few sets?” Sometimes people will respond that they only have one more set, and then I’ll just wait, but otherwise you can lift during each other’s rest breaks. It’s annoying if the guys are lifting much more weight than you, but I’ve never had anyone say no.

          1. I think this goes back to people not being able to read others’ minds too. Yes, they shouldn’t have “hogged” the equipment for 45 minutes, but they may not have realized someone else wanted to use it. I know I’ve been oblivious to others’ needs since when I’m at the gym, I’m paying attention to myself and my music and may not know that the person standing 15 feet away is willing me to stop using the machine so they can.

    7. I always wonder about whether anyone actually does this. I stick to interval training if I have to go at a peak time so that I’m never the offending party, but I’m pretty flexible about my workouts. If I go to the gym wanting to run and all the treadmills are taken, I just hop on an elliptical, bike, or rowing machine for a warm-up until one is free. I do think, “what a jerk” to myself if I notice someone has been there forever, but my gym is big enough that I figure I’m not going to wait *that* long anyway, so it’s not worth the confrontation.

    8. I am usually in training for a race, but if I was zoned out (I cover the timer) and ran past 30 minutes and there was a line, I would not be offended if someone politely reminded me. I would be more horrified that I had made people wait because, as mentioned above, I know I need to run in off-peak hours if I have a long run to get in (although ideally those happen outside anyway).

       You’re likely to offend some people because some people are rude a$$holes, but I see no issue with politely asking if you could jump on one if they hit the 45 minute mark.

    9. Wait what? Who on earth makes a trip to the gym for only a 30 minute workout? If I’m on the treadmill, I’m on there for at least an hour, much longer if I’m training.

       1. People who lift weights and do cardio at the same visit.

       2. I do four-mile runs at 8 minutes per mile so … I do. If I’m doing a longer run, I go outside. I can’t imagine being on a treadmill for a 10-mile run, but YMMV.

       3. me

          1. me too. The part where you aren’t supposed to over do it when you first start working out. Or have other things to do with your life than spend an hour at the gym.

       4. Right, but some gyms have signs limiting you to 30 minutes during peak times.

       5. Oh cool, is this the part of the thread where we incredulously shame people for not doing X to our standards, and pretend we’ve never even heard of failure to meet those standards as being possible???

          You do you lady.

       6. People who belong to gyms that have rules limiting treadmill use to 30 minutes?

       7. Unless you’re training for marathons, that seems like a really long time… Perhaps others are going at a faster rate, or doing intervals? To me a 3-5 mile run would be a solid workout, which many people can run in 30 minutes or so.

19. I’m going to be a maid of honor in a friend’s wedding this fall, and my weight’s been creeping up. Distressingly, the social shame of being in all those photos looking like an inflated version of myself is a stronger motivation for me to lose weight than no longer fitting into my pants. I’m going to get back on the NRLFW track, I’m drinking water like a fish, and I’m actually trying to hit my Fitbit daily goals instead of ignoring them, but does anyone have any encouragement/strategies for balancing my love of food and drink with the need to consume fewer calories? I’m not a fan of counting calories – I’ll do it for a week or so, but it gets too cumbersome after a while, and I’m not a believer in saying a food is “bad” or that you absolutely can’t eat it.

    1. I’m getting my act together too. I’m sadly realizing that for me, and I think most people, I need to pay attention to calories. Do you think just watching portion sizes could do it for you? I’m doing low-carb but I don’t think low carb would work without watching my calories (and looking up stats anyway for carb counts)

    2. I am similarly motivated as you and also not a fan of counting calories or implementing general food restrictions. What motivates me is picturing myself looking however it is I want to look on X occasion and also figuring out what I’m willing to give up and not for any particular time in my life. So, e.g., in the past when I went out a lot on the weekends with friends I would try to eat very healthfully during the week and then give myself a break on the weekends to indulge when I was out at dinner/brunch. In more recent years, I’d decide that I really like dinners with Mr. AIMS and allow myself to indulge there more and restrict my breakfast/lunch to something more moderate. Try to figure out what works for you.
       The other thing that I find really helpful is moving more – not just in the exercise sense but in the let me put this cup back right after I’m done, let me tidy while I watch tv, put things away one at a time that I would normally let pile up, take out the recycling often, run to the store to get milk, do small loads of laundry, etc. Maybe this boosts my metabolism, but actively trying to “not be lazy” is honestly the easiest way for me to lose a few pounds (and this is not to say that when I or anyone else gains a few, they are being lazy; just what works for me to get back in shape without too much effort).

    3. Weight watchers. Or my fitness pal. Tracking what you eat makes all the difference for me.

       1. +1 to WW. Never tried a ‘diet’ until WW this year to get ready for a beach wedding post baby. It’s far from perfect but working for me. Tracking everything I eat and measuring my food has really helped. I’m surprised how much I was eating before – I scoop my pasta with a 1 cup measure now. I was definitely eating 2-3 cups of pasta per meal before.

          1. I’ve just started using a knock-off WW app called iTrackBites. It’s really helping me consider my portion sizes. Tracking my food intake and exercise has been really helpful and it’s keeping me honest. I have also measured my pasta now, and while I’ll still have SOME pasta, most of my plate is comprised of veggies mixed in with the pasta, so I’m still full and don’t feel deprived.

       2. And +1 here for My Fitness Pal and weighing and measuring. Sadly, I just have to count calories. And also the tracking makes me realize I really need to exercise daily or almost daily because otherwise my calorie allowance for losing weight is just too darned low for comfort!

       3. +1 I’m down 6.5 lbs (and counting!) since my sister got engaged 4 weeks ago. Bring it, wedding pictures.

    4. For drink, I limit my overall consumption to no more than 2 glasses out or one at home and 4 glasses total of wine a week.

       For food, if I really want to lose weight I have to track. But what I find helps is making a list of all the foods that I do love that are healthy on my phone. I love fennel. I love leeks. I love fish. And I didn’t get fat from any of those.

    5. Instead of counting calories each day, familiarize yourself with the general calorie count of various foods so you have an intuitive sense of how to balance what you eat in a day. If you know that baguette with your dinner clocks in at 200 calories, you should think about whether you want to skip that 200ish calorie dessert after. Non-starchy vegetables have negligible calories, so you can always add them into your meal, have them as a snack, or swap them in for rice or something. Get familiar with the healthier options at your go-to places if you eat out a lot. As long as you roughly know the nutritional content of what you’re eating, and choose the healthier option most of the time, you can intuitively make balanced choices throughout the day instead of having to constantly track everything.

    6. I know you said you are not a fan of counting calories, but for me that is just about the only thing that really works. I do it at least for a couple of weeks so I have a good idea of portion size, what I’m eating mindlessly, etc. I tend to eat the same things for the most part, so once I have figured the calories out it is easy to re-enter in something like myfitness pal. I also really like eating a bigger dinner so I purposefully eat a small breakfast and a small lunch so I can have more calories for dinner. I know some people like to eat a bigger lunch and so you can switch that around for however you like to eat.

       1. I think this is one of the reasons I hate counting calories- I avoid repeating meals like the plague. Eating the same thing for dinner twice in a week makes me want to gag. When I have done calorie counting, it’s taken a good 20 minutes out of my day to look up the ingredients of the dish I just made, figure out the portions, add them all up, and then another 20 minutes to do it again guessing at the ingredients of the dish I had out at lunch. I don’t mind it occasionally to keep me on track, but as a long-term lifestyle goal, I would just be setting myself up for failure.

          1. I hate counting calories for a similar reason – I cook almost everything from scratch, and it drives me crazy to figure out how many calories/grams of whatever are in what I’ve prepared.

             If I ever feel like I’m in a unhealthy eating rut, I write down everything that I eat for a week. At the end of the week, I add up how many times I ate veggies, how many times I ate whole grains, how many times I splurged and ate cookies, etc. I find this to be helpful because it gives me a snapshot of how I’m eating and how I could improve, but I don’t have to be super draconian about it. The knowledge that I’m going to write it down makes me more accountable to myself.

             In terms of portion sizes, I recommend eating on smaller plates.

    7. But unfortunately, there are really only two ways of ensure that your food consumption doesn’t exceed your energy expenditure: (1) counting calories or (2) not allowing yourself to eat foods that are highly caloric (and instead filling up on low-calorie foods like veggies), thereby accomplishing the same goal. So either way, you’re going to have to do something that you find unpleasant.

    8. One of the easier ways I’ve found to stay on track is to be careful about what I eat during the week (and no alcoholic drinks), and then give myself some flexibility on the weekends- a drink or two with dinner, and one or two more splurge-y meals (but not too over-the-top). Weekends aren’t a free-for-all– I tend to have two healthy meals during each day and keep snacking healthy/ to a minimum– but it lets me feel like I’m not deprived.

    9. Tough love here, but I think you pretty much have to do one or the other – count calories or restrict foods. Weight loss is really hard and you don’t get to keep eating the way you currently eat and lose weight if you’re gaining at the moment.

       I include things like WW in “counting calories” because functionally, that’s what it is doing. I personally hate counting calories – I get bored and lazy and stop counting or just estimate and it doesn’t work well. I am much better with cutting foods. I have lost weight successfully basically being paleo-ish (I eat legumes so not strict, but grain-free, dairy-free, mostly sugar-free) with a very small number of cheats (i.e. one cheat meal each week not a cheat every day). I much prefer saying “I don’t eat X, Y, and Z” and then eating as much as I want of A, B and C and not worrying about calories, portion sizes (beyond making a reasonable effort to have veggies, protein and fat at every meal) or other numbers.

    10. Things that have worked for me in the past, at least to keep me from gaining weight if not actually losing it:

        -Keeping a food diary, but not getting into the nitty-gritty about counting the calories for each thing I eat. Knowing that I have to write down “4 Hershey kisses from the candy jar” helps me consciously think about whether I really want that chocolate (and some days I do) or whether I am mindlessly eating them.
        -Paying attention to portion sizes. If the cereal box says a serving is 1 cup, I measure out 1 cup with a measuring cup. If I want a second serving, I don’t deny myself that, but I only start with 1 serving at a time.
        -No junk food in the house or in my desk. If I want ice cream, I can go out and buy a scoop, or if I want a cookie I can go buy 1, but I don’t keep a container of ice cream in teh freezer or a pack of cookies in the pantry or in my desk.

        I also know that starchy, carb-y foods and treats like cookies are my downfall, so it works for me to restrict simple carbs – for instance, sometimes I institute a “no simple carbs (no bread, no baked goods, no pasta) for breakfast or lunch, and only 1-2 servings for dinner” rule, or “no simple carbs during the week, only on weekends”. Or same thing with alcohol – eliminating it during the week and only allowing myself a small amounts on the weekends can help too.

        I also have to keep an eye on what I’m calling “a special occasion” – because it’s really easy to slide into “it’s Thursday night and I haven’t killed my coworkers yet this week, that’s a special occasion, I can have drinks and dessert tonight” and now almost every meal is a “special occasion”.

    11. I was that ballooning bridesmaid in a wedding a few years ago, despite a concerted effort to stop and reverse that course. The one thing that helped the day of (and leading up to) was getting a dress that fit me at that moment, not one that would be OK “in 10 pounds.” Dresses can easily be taken in when you do lose the weight. (I also used this method for my wedding, since I experienced a weight gain due to a medical issue. Made my whole day better knowing I didn’t need to pray about fitting in my dress.)

        1. +1 to this. Don’t buy a dress that doesn’t fit – you will be uncomfortable all night, and you don’t want to send the bride into a panic if the dress won’t zip a few days before the wedding.

           Spanx are your friend, as is finding a style that is flattering to you now (not 10 lb less than now) if you have any say in the dress – but don’t order down to force yourself – because it often doesn’t work.

        2. Oh my lord, yes! For my first wedding about a hundred years ago I bought a dress I had to diet to get into. I made it, but it was SO not worth the stress (and my mom giving me the side-eye about everything I ate even as late as the rehearsal dinner)!

    12. The only way I can lose weight without compulsive measuring and counting is going very low carb. I am very bad at negotiating with carbs and find the whole 1/2 cup of rice lifestyle depressing for me. I am much more satisfied eating more fat than I have in the past with “no forbidden food” plans like WW, etc. You still have to watch your calories, but for me abstinence is infinitely easier than trying to moderate sugar while losing weight. Look for Gary Taubes or keto if you want a framework (though I am happy losing at closer to 40 net carbs a day than 20).

        If you’re really busy and don’t want to prepare food/don’t mind processed Jenny Craig can be very effective, but is not really sustainable for the long-term.

        1. I just started getting back on keto this week. I’m feeling awesome and no “carb flu” yet (though I was sick when I started, so maybe they just lined up?), and have already lost some bloat. I was actually just talking to my coworker (we talk about fitness things, so not being a weirdo) about how awesome my macros are looking for today.

20. Hi all, long time reader first time question asker! I’ve learned quite a bit from reading all the threads here and hoped perhaps someone could give some guidance.

    Disclaimer jut as an FYI: I’m not in law, currently working for a govt contractor passively looking at jobs in international/multilateral organizations. My school’s alumni coordinator emailed about a job and mentioned an alumni willing to answer questions and possibly forward/flag resumes for this position and it’s as close to a dream job as I’ve seen lately. I’m SUPER interested. Reading over the description, I feel like I meet all of the needs and wish list qualities for the post, so I was just wondering how to go about approaching this alumni contact since I don’t know them personally?

    I’m just wondering what the proper protocol/language is and was curious as to what you all would suggest for good questions to ask to stand out and also a polite way to ask for this person to flag/forward my app if I’m as good a candidate as I think I am?

    I’m still at my first “real job” and I came in through an internship so I’m not sure how this works, figured I’d ask for guidance for this and any future opportunities!

    1. Send an email. Address the person as Ms./Mr. Smith in your first email. (If the person responds “best, Mary,” call her Mary going forward.) In your email, say that Sue Jones at Alumni Univ. suggested you reach out since the position seems to be a fit for your credentials. You were wondering if there might be a time to chat briefly about the position, either over coffee (if you’re in the same city) or over the phone. The position looks like exactly what you were looking for and you’d love the chance to learn more about it. Your resume is attached for reference.

       1. I use either the name of the university or the mutual contact as the subject line.

       2. And when you ask for some time, be specific. “Do you have 20 minutes during the next week to chat about the position?” Then stick to that time allotment unless they clearly state that they can stay longer.

    2. Ok I will take the other side. You asked this woman THREE times over the course of a few hours how to pronounce her name. Even if you did not break any rules per se, I think a person with normal social cue reading would have gotten the message after maybe the second attempt. Do you have trouble interpreting social cues in other situations?

       1. Sorry this seems to have posted in the wrong place.

21. PSA for anyone looking for a nice leather work tote: I just received the Halogen Belltown leather tote in black and LOVE it. It’s only $118 right now and the leather is buttery soft. I wanted a classic looking tote with structure and a few details that would keep it from being boring. This hits all the right notes and is an absolute STEAL at its current price.

    1. Link: http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/halogen-belltown-leather-tote/4105799?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=Tan+Greige&resultback=503

       1. Oh MAN, do I love that in the teal!

    2. Any idea what the length of the strap drop is? It’s not listed. From the photos it looks too short for me to put on the shoulder, but the (slender-armed, non-winter-coat-wearing) model does have it over her shoulder.

       1. 7 1/2 inches per the Nordstrom details.

       2. I’m able to comfortably get it over my arm with a puffy coat that’s fit for Chicago weather :-)

22. Gift idea for a couple (with a younger child) who is taking care of their ailing parents? Something to make their lives easier or happier since I know this must be a stressful time. I live far away so would not be able to offer help running errands or babysitting. Was thinking of grocery delivery services, restaurant certificates, but would love more ideas from the Hive. TIA!

    1. Amazon gift card, plated gift card, pea pod gift card? Gift certificate for merry maids or something similar in their area?

       1. I’d go with something like instacart or seamless over plated. A plated delivery might just feel like you are adding another thing to their to do list.

23. I’m a recent graduate who has just moved and passed the bar in my state. I started my new job yesterday. I received two emails from someone, one of them welcoming me to the firm and another one with information about parking, the kitchenette on our floor etc. The name on the emails looks to be foreign and I couldn’t figure out how to pronounce it. The person who sent me the emails walked by my office and poked her head in to welcome me and she asked if I received her emails. I also bumped into her on my way back from the bathroom. Both times I asked her what he name was and both times she said that it was in her email signature.

    I still couldn’t figure out the pronunciation and Google was no help. Most of my colleagues were in a meeting so I popped over to her office and I asked for her name again because I said I wanted to make sure I had the correct pronunciation. She told me and I went back to what I was doing.

    I was called into one of the partner’s offices not long afterwards. I thought it was going to be a welcome/introduction type thing but instead he and another partner scolded me for asking her such an inappropriate question. The didn’t want to hear “explanations or excuses”. They said they were very taken aback by my behavior and mentioned sending to me to sensitivity training. They also questioned why I was hired and told me not to do something so embarrassing to myself and the firm in the future. Thinking there had been a misunderstanding I asked them to clarify what I did that was so embarrassing and they said that “Asking someone for the correct pronunciation of their name is rude.”

    I am flustered and upset at being scolded but I can’t understand how wanting to have someone’s name correct was rude. I haven’t seen her yet today but I’m unsure if I should apologize to her or just leave it alone. I saw one of the partners by the elevator and he said something about sensitivity training again.

    Am I wrong to be upset? This is my first job at a firm and I did my summer’s in midsize firms and not biglaw. Was it rude for me to ask her for the correct pronunciation of her name? This was not the impression I wanted to make on my first day.

    1. *excuse any spelling/grammar/formatting errors. I posted using a mobile device.

    2. This is so crazy I am skeptical it’s real. But anyway. No, it is not rude to ask the correct pronunciation of someone’s name. If I were you I wouldn’t have hounded her it about three times on my first day, but what’s done is done and it’s not that big a deal. If you were called into a partner’s office, yelled at, and told to go to sensitivity training, either you did something way beyond what you mentioned here, or the partners are insane. Either way, it’s time to job hunt. In the meantime, lay low, only speak when spoken to directly, and keep a record of anything inappropriate anyone says to you.

       1. Thank you for your response. I appreciate the advice you offered. I swear this actually happened to me. I didn’t do anything else to warrant it because I had literally only worked there for a few hours when this happened and she was the first co-worker that I spoke to beyond hello and introductions. I got another lecture this morning from one of the mid-level associates about stereotyping all Asian people as being Chinese. One of the assistants (who is white) heard me speaking on the phone to my grandmother in Mandarin when I was on my break outside. The assistant spoke to me in Mandarin because she also speaks it. She told me she lived all over Asia when she was a child because her mom works for the government. Mid level associate (who is also white) told me I “shouldn’t assume people who look Asian you are all Chinese. There are other countries there”. You’re right about me keeping my head down and looking for a new job.

          1. Run. Now.

          2. Wait, what? You were speaking to a white assistant in Mandarin and that turned into a lecture about not assuming all Asian people are Chinese? That doesn’t even compute.

          3. That’s insane. Fwiw, I have a foreign difficult to pronounce name. People ask me how to say it all the time and it’s no big deal. I’ve never heard of this before. Sorry this really sucks for you.

    3. That’s crazy! I have a few colleagues with difficult to pronounce names and I’ve often asked how to pronounce it because I want to be respectful and get their name right. Nobody has ever criticized me for it.

    4. Ok I will take the other side. You asked this woman THREE times over the course of a few hours how to pronounce her name. Even if you did not break any rules per se, I think a person with normal social cue reading would have gotten the message after maybe the second attempt. Do you have trouble interpreting social cues in other situations?

       1. I agree with you that OP sounds socially awkward, but it sounds like the partners are massively overreacting. This isn’t, after she’s been there for six months, “we think maybe you should seek opportunities elsewhere because you’re not a good fit” which could very well be blamed on OP’s social awkwardness. I’m not sure why asking someone their name three times (however weird and awkward it might be) merits multiple lectures and possible sensitivity training.

          1. It’s also weird that she wouldn’t just tell OP what her name was. “It’s in my signature block” is such an odd response.

       2. No, no, no. She asked what the woman’s name was, and the woman didn’t answer! She said it was in the email! I have an unusual name and I’ve spent half my life pronouncing it. But I sincerely appreciate when people ask me for the pronunciation, even repeatedly, over butchering it or just glancing at it and calling me Tallulah when my name is actually Tamara (not my name, but you get the point). This is all crazypants. There is nothing on earth offensive about asking someone to pronounce their name. It’s actually quite polite and thoughtful.

    5. I don’t think you are wrong to be upset – it is completely normal to clarify the pronunciation of someones name and the reaction to this is mindboggling – but I do think you made some missteps here that you could remember in the future. If you don’t know how to pronounce someone’s name, ask them, don’t ask them for their name twice on two separate occasions and not take the 2x hint of ‘its in my email’ and then also go to that persons office and ask for a third time. Wait until someone else addresses them by name if it already looks like it’s going to be ‘a thing’. Couldn’t hurt to apologize for any misunderstanding to the individual in question – though you did nothing wrong – to smooth things over.

24. I maybe would have asked a coworker how to pronounce it instead, but whoamigosh this sounds CRAZY. Post on the afternoon thread (not the pregnancy thread) when it gets posted to see what everyone else has to say; it’s a bit late for this thread.

    1. Thank you! I will

25. Only 1 out of 1oo pronounce my name correctly. I appreciate it when some one asks rather than forging ahead and butchering it. I have been dealing with this since kindergarten so I am used to it. Nevertheless, I don’t get offended. It’s unreasonable to expect a person to be able to correctly pronounce names from all over the world no matter how adept the person is with languages. So, always better to ask!

    Perhaps there is more going on with your co-worker than is apparent. She may have a hot button on this for reasons of her own.

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