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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Happy Tuesday! This rowing blazer from Red Fleece at Brooks Brothers has a definite academic vibe to it, but I like it — as it turns out Brooks Brothers has a number of similar rowing blazers (some in wool and on sale!). This is a polyester/viscose/elastane blend and is machine washable; it's available in sizes 0-14. I'd wear it with a bright yellow blouse, but I'm always a fan of gray and yellow. It's $298. Rowing Blazer
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Sales of note for 9.10.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
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- J.Crew – Up to 50% off wear-to-work styles; extra 30% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40-60% off everything; extra 60% off clearance
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- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – BOGO 50% everything, includes markdowns
- White House Black Market – 30% off new arrivals
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SF elopement
Girlfriend and I are planning to elope at San Francisco city hall first week of April. We’re from Toronto, so I need your help planning!
Can anyone recommend a hair salon close-ish to city hall? We’re not looking for up-dos, just looks that are a bit more polished than our everyday.
Can anyone recommend a fun, delicious restaurant where we can celebrate after? Doesn’t have to be ultra fancy.
Where should we stay? Four nights. Mid-range budget (though I would love the Fairmont if I could afford it!).
Anon
I got married at city hall and would definitely recommend it! The amazing restaurant we went to after has since closed (RIP) and I don’t have a rec for a hair salon, but we stayed at the Intercontinental (near Yerba Buena) and it did the job. I would splurge for the Fairmont though!
Anon
Diva salon is not that close to city hall, it is at the foot of market street, but it is wonderful.
Have you seen if you can afford the Palace hotel? I think it is more reasonably priced than the Fairmont and just as historic. If you’re set on Nob Hill, sometimes the Mark Hopkins across the street from the Fairmont has good deals (I know this because sometimes colleagues from out of town inexplicably end up booked there, when the Doubletree is more our corporate booking speed.)
Congratulations!
Em
I would second Mark Hopkins. The Top of the Mark has a good brunch with amazing views.
The original Scarlett
Oh congrats!! That’s where I got married!!
For hair, there are a lot of Dry Bars around town, closest is probably Fillmore. If you want to splurge a little, Fox and Doll makeup will come to your hotel and get you ready.
For restaurants, I love Zuni Cafe (classic SF), Jardinere (celebratory and fancier), Absinthe (clsssic post City Hall choice), all are in the relative vicinity.
For hotels, I’d keep an eye on deal sites – the Fairmont might surprise you because it’s not in the center of conference activity where lower end places charge insane amounts. For a boutique, classic SF spot, I like the Hotel Majestic. Also, check out the Laurel Inn and the Stanyan Park Hotel – both are boutique/ b&b’s in neighborhoods and feel like a local experience.
Anon
+1 to Jardiniere. Love that place.
Hazel
No recommendations, just congratulations!
Anon
I got married there! It was fantastic. There’s a Drybar in Union Square. It’s been a few years since I left the city, so my restaurant recs aren’t super up to date, but you’ll be spoilt for choice.
Anokha
I also got married at City Hall and went to DryBar in union square prior to the ceremony. Congrats!
Nelly Yuki
Early congrats, OP!
Ellen
If you are going to SF, and like Garlic, go to the Stinking Rose near North Beach. f you are already MARRIED or getting married, you know each other and do NOT have to worry about bad breathe from Garlic, b/c you already have been intimate. Go and have a great time and let us know evertything you did! (or almost)! YAY!!
Grimmace
Is it me or would the cut on this blazer magnify a pear shape?
I have concerns.
Anon
It would. This would not be flattering on me.
Splurgy
Ugh — as I march through my 40s and find my life clogged with work, kids-related things, etc. I find that I seem to creep up something like .5 size/year (which staying pretty steady in the weight department, so it is all legit middle-aged spread), so I am perpetually buying clothes (while remaining an optimist that others may fit again). Pants are the most unforgiving. Shirts / sweaters / most dresses — more wiggle room. And then our work dress code will march ever more casual. Clients though, expect suits.
I feel like Charlotte York, but I’ve been shopping for clothes since I was 14 and I am ready to be done!
Anon
I feel you. I get inspired by the Vivienne Files like a poster the other day. Like, if i have to do this again (outfitting myself for, say, spring/summer 2019), I’m going to pick one or two base colors and one or two accent colors and limit my choices to about 16 pieces. That way everything goes with everything else, I always have something to wear and no orphaned pieces, and packing for a trip is easy.
And then maybe just one gray suit for client meetings. Seriously, no one notices if you repeat a suit. Just change the blouse.
Anon in Texas for this one
You should have your hormones checked. I was in the same place, couldn’t lose weight and it was all in my stomach. Turns out I had zero testosterone. ZERO! I was so low it didn’t even register. My thyroid was also on the low side, which greatly affects your metabolism. I’m still in the process of getting these leveled out, but I feel much better and the weight in my middle section is coming off!!!
Anon
If your weight is the same, your diet is probably fine. The only way to combat middle aged spread is to weight train to control the weight distribution and form of your body. Are you able to incorporate weight training into your work outs? If time is not on your side, series of random squats, weighted exercises (like the small dumbbell) and stairs will help a lot – and I mean random – 15 squats while washing dishes, dumbbell curls while walking around the house, doing 5 minutes of steps here in there. Any bit helps, and a lot of little bits help a lot.
Cuyana
OMG — they have red / blood orange / mango colored items. I am so sick of the long gray winter that I think I need them all. I suspect I am part magpie — all of the pretty little things are so distracting . . .
lsw
same, girl, same.
Anonymous
This blazer is cut very poorly. It looks as if it fits the model across the shoulders, but it’s too big everywhere else, and the sleeves are too wide and long. And the piping on the pockets makes it look like a pajama top.
Penny Lane
Yeah… what is it with too-long sleeves?
Idea
Thank you I was wondering about the sleeves. I haven’t worn a suit blazer in a long time so I was wondering if that is how sleeves are “supposed” to fit. Glad to see it’s not!
Lavinia
I’ve been seeing this issue with a lot of blazers lately, at all price points. They fit in the shoulders, and then they become almost triangle-shaped with ridiculously long sleeves.
Anonymous
I started online dating a few months ago. I’m 35 and desperately want to find a good guy to settle down with in the next year or two, and in theory I don’t care much about looks, but it keeps getting in the way. I’ve tried giving a chance to men who send nice messages but whom I’m not attracted to in their pictures, and on the date we can have a good conversation but then they (reasonably) want to kiss, and I can’t get into it.
Pre-online dating, I dated great people who weren’t conventionally attractive, but I got to know them over a long time, during which they became attractive to me. With online dating I feel like you have 2 – 3 dates to develop that interest (which I can’t do so fast).
Is there any solution to this problem? I don’t want something so shallow to get in the way of my happiness. I’m flexible on some things that other women find dealbreakers (like height), but only because I really don’t care, not because I’m good at holding back my natural preferences. I’m sure there are tons of great guys who are bald and overweight, but I’m not immediately attracted to them.
Anon
There’s a different between people you are decidedly not attractive to (or even repulsed by) and people who are more like an eh. Go out with the ehs. People are also different in motion. There’s little to lose by kissing and finding out. Also, it sounds like you’re going out with people who are sending you messages, but are you sending out messages to people you find attractive?
Anonymous
No I rarely message first. Maybe I should try…
Anon
You absolutely have to message first. If you wait you’ll just get messages from creeps.
Monday
Absolutely. All my best matches, past and present, have been with guys I approached (whether online or IRL). Identify and pursue what YOU want.
Annonnnn
Co-sign messaging people who you find interesting/attractive first. The only men I have gotten into relationships with off of dating apps are men I approached first. All three have/are good dudes, there were other reasons the relationships didn’t work out (moves, shift in desires for relationship, etc.)
Anon
I will say that pictures can be deceiving. A lot of people aren’t photogenic, or they choose the worst pictures of themselves to put online.
Anonymous
Are you sure this is just about looks? I find it really hard to click with someone in such a short amount of time, even if they’re attractive. I also think a lot of guys are ok with a longer timeline, like 5-6 dates. This is easier to do in the summer, but for dates 3-5 I try to spend more time with the guy than just a drink or dinner. Day in a garden, some free(ish) outdoor concert or small local music festival, a food truck festival, heck even car shows can be great and I’m so not into cars. I want to be able to relax and spend an unspecified amount of time with someone without the pressure to be “on” the whole time. And I don’t want to have to invite him to my house to do that.
Anon
Do you want to kiss any of the guys you go out on first dates with? Maybe you just need a little more time before you want to become physical, which is totally fine. May you want to kiss these guys if you went out with them 2-3 times? If you think this might be it, could you try first date settings that are less likely to lead to the guy trying to kiss you. Not that you should have to worry about saying no or that it’s your fault in any way or that this will end all of it, but I’ve find some first date settings more likely to end with the guy trying to kiss me. My normal first date is happy hour drinks (at like 6) or coffee on the weekend, and I can’t remember the last time a guy tried to kiss me after the first date and that holds try regardless of whether he asked for a second date. With my first dates were more evening drinks (at like 8 or 9) or late dinners, the guys seems more likely to try to kiss me (regardless of whether they then asked for a second date).
Anon
While I would never encourage a woman to go on a date, let alone several, with someone she finds to be unattractive, The Rule stands: 3 dates for chemistry, 0 chances for character.
Anonymous
Oh wow 3 dates for chemistry? I’d say it should be an automatic “no” if you don’t want to kiss him/aren’t charmed by him after one date, with a “I’m open to trying it” attitude if otherwise he seems like he’d be great and he asks/expresses excitement.
Too many variables are difficult to assess when dating someone – not wanting to kiss someone is a good hard line. I always found alcohol helped me feel “charmed” but you do you.
Anon
Depends on what you’re looking for: a date or a husband. If you are looking forward the latter, 3 dates for chemistry to develop is nothing in comparison to the relationship that follows.
I fell in love with my husband very, very early on, but we did not kiss until much later. In the scheme of things, it doesn’t matter at all.
Anon
I subscribe to this. First dates can be awkward, he could be nervous, you could be nervous, who knows. My general rule is something like: if after one date, I’m having warm overall feelings toward him, I’ll go for date 2. If after date 2 I’m feeling a little more connected, I’m definitely going for date 3. If after date 2 I’m unsure, I’m probably also going for date 3. Not to lead him on by any means, but if you liked someone enough to go out twice, maybe date 2 was their off night, might as well give things another shot. After 3 I evaluate and typically it either feels natural to keep going, or it doesn’t. I’ve only ever had spark-firework chemistry with one person the first time I met him, and for so many reasons that’s a person who is not a healthy long-term relationship for me.
If at any point my gut is an absolute no, if I felt at all creeped out or unsafe, if I’m absolutely not attracted to him, etc – I pull the plug and wish him good luck.
anon
I’m with Anon at 11:36. I’m one of those people who can feel chemistry/attraction after knowing someone for a while, but online dating doesn’t really facilitate that. No guy wants to hang out for 3 months until you’re bffs and fall for each other. (I’m also someone who needs a few great dates to feel comfortable with physical contact.) Unfortunately, I’ve had limited luck with going on several dates hoping that real attraction builds. I’m still going to give it a chance like Anon said above, but I think I have to accept that if I don’t want him, physically, right off the bat or think “ohh! He’s cute” when I first see him, it likely won’t happen. It’s really difficult, and I don’t want to reject great guys. But I know that I deserve someone I’m attracted to and that a relationship won’t work if I’m not, but honestly online dating is just a tough switch for those of us who prefer to let things develop organically.
Anonymous
I want to kiss maybe 1 out of 5 or 10 guys I go on a first date with, combination of being physically attracted and liking their personality/who they are. But none of them have worked out (and not because I wasn’t attracted to them).
Ellen
I agree. You do NOT have to think of it as requiring that you have s-x with the guy. You are merely meeting the guy and figuring out if you want to go out with him again. Most men will NOT get mad if you appear interested during the evening but do NOT signal that you want to have s-x with them. If you do, they will NOT think of you as MARRAGE material b/c they will think that you have proabably slept with a lot of guys like them (or worse) and they do NOT want someone who gives her body to a man right away. That is the lesson Grandma Trudy taught me and she is right. She was married for many years and ONLY had s-x with Grandpa Morris. And she did have chances with many other men b/f settling on Morris, and he was NOT interested in having s-x with others either, b/f or after they got MARRIED.
Anon
What I noticed from your post is that you are desperately trying to find someone to settle down with. I’m 33 and avoiding any desperation because it’s just a recipe for disaster. This guy doesn’t have the right job, education, looks, I’m not going out with him or I don’t want to kiss him. I try to make it fun and less serious. It puts way too much pressure on dating and can make you automatically cross off certain guys. If after a first date, it’s not a no, then maybe see him again. Try a second date. Be open minded too. Are they a little overweight or a bad dresser? Those things can change. I’m not saying to sleep with someone you’re not attracted to. Just be open minded and don’t describe yourself as desperate.
Monday
I’ll go further and say, don’t *be* desperate. Sure, you want your person, but true desperation means ending up in a commitment or even marriage with someone who just doesn’t do it for ya. That isn’t fair to yourself or to him.
Note: this is not remotely “easy for me to say.” I’m 37 and divorced because my ex-husband married me in some kind of rush, and then thought better of it. I’m still not here to settle in any way.
it's hard
You say you don’t want something so shallow to get in the way of your happiness.
May I suggest…. be happy NOW be comfortable with yourself NOW be your best friend NOW and also have *fun* looking for your partner.
Anonymous
Ugh. Eyeroll.
anon
+1
Wow, why didn’t I think of trying to have fun while dating!? Brilliant insight.
Is it Friday yet?
Smug and gross. Like being single is all my fault for not having enough FUN being ghosted or inappropriately propositioned or ultimatum-ed or spending my limited free time scrolling through tons of unsuitable guys. Part of why it’s so frustrating is because my life is good and fun and happy and I’d rather be rock climbing or riding my horses than scrolling or going on mediocre dates. It’s a matter of luck, not a matter of everyone single must be intrinsically unhappy or doing it all wrong, but thanks, jerk.
anonymous
Right? Gee, what would I rather do, hang out with my loving friends, face time with my niece, go to yoga, hike, ride, bike, plan a vacation, work on a cool project at work, see a new movie, clean my apt, take a nap, or ………scroll endlessly through men/make small talk about “what r u up to this weekend”/go on a first date that’s statistically likely to go no where? I’m almost always inclined to just live my own life, and now look, it’s been a year since I’ve activated my dating apps and I’ve met almost no one in real life. But thank GOD for the advice to be happy. Someone should bottle that advice and cripple Big Pharma permanently.
Anon
If you’d rather be doing something other than dating, then do those things. Stop complaining about it. It sucks to get ghosted and be disappointed and go on bad dates, but if you don’t want to do it, stop! No one is forcing you to do all this. Men suck, the dating scene sucks, I get it! That’s why a better mentality is to just have fun and not make it all so serious so you stop getting so disappointed at every bad date or guy who ghosts you. This is what dating is now so deal with it or don’t.
Is it Friday yet?
Because it’s a means to an end for those of us who want to up our chances of finding someone? Law school kinda sucked too, but it was worth it because it put me in a much better place long term. Finding dating tedious and painful doesn’t mean I’m utterly devastated at every bad date (heck, I enjoy swapping war stories with my friends). And I always enjoy it once it gets to the point that I’m seeing someone exclusively (or, ya know, I wouldn’t be seeing that dude exclusively).
Generally, I screen pretty carefully and go on relatively few first dates, so the truly terrible ones are rare (sometimes it’s the third date surprise though!), and if it’s not happening I nope out quickly and politely after one drink – but I also feel bad when a guy is into me and I have to turn him down because I’m not a sociopath. Don’t rag on those of us who are looking for a person and aren’t dating for the sake of dating just because we’re looking for a little commiseration. If you don’t want to listen to the complaining, move along, these aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
anon
“No one is forcing you to do all this. ”
Well, it’s kinda the only option if you want a relationship (you said so yourself- that’s what dating is now). It’s ridiculous to pretend like that people are choosing this over just walking out the door and meeting a nice, compatible man. Also, knock it off with the “just have fun, don’t be so disappointed” crap. Yes, that’s what we’re all trying to do. (And like Is It Friday Yet said, no I’m not constantly disappointed after dates, but it’s still a tremendous time suck). But people are annoyed at constantly receiving that obvious, patronizing advice. If you have any actual advice for HOW to have fun despite the obvious crappy parts, rather than simply repeating that people SHOULD have fun, I’m all ears. But simply saying “just have fun!” is mind-numbingly useless advice. People are allowed to complain and seek commiseration about things that are optional. Look at every comment thread about anything (why can’t I WFH?! I’m struggling with my diet! My work hours are crazy! My boss sucks! Child care is expensive! My spouse xyz! Someone is pissed about my wedding!) on this s1te.
Anon
I’m just saying everyone knows it sucks. There’s a point where you need to get over it, try something new, or just accept it and stop complaining!!
anon
God, just stop. Clearly everyone’s points are flying well over your head.
Is it Friday yet?
Puh-lease. It sucks, it’s not changeable, commiserating over shared misery is part of the human experience. Obviously no one is “forcing [us] to do this” (how condescending) – it’s choosing the best option in a cruddy situation. Hearing that I’m not alone with dealing with this and feeling crappy about it is actually really helpful. You are mean and wrong.
Anonymous
Between swiping on apps, messaging once I’ve matched, going on dates, I probably spend on average 30 to 60 minutes a day on this “hobby” that I don’t want to be doing. Sometimes it’s fun to meet new people but mostly it discourages me and breaks my heart at regular intervals. If you can find this process fun, you have a much more optimistic attitude than I do! :)
JazzyRose
Maybe its time for a paid matchmaker service if you’re spending 30-60 minutes a day on this.
Anon
If only that were a realistic solution to the problem. Once I figure out how to pay for it, it may not even work (as evidenced by the experiences of users here).
Anonymous
Uh, his does not seem like a crazy amount of time to me. Even a quick date is an hour or two.
anon
Really? No. First of all, paid matchmaker services really aren’t that much of a thing that actually works. Second, 30-60 minutes a day is pretty typical.
Anon
I’ve tried the paid matchmaker services, and they are not worth the money I’ve spent on them. If only it was that easy …
Alana
Although it’s not the main topic of the article on single people in the USA, Kate Julian wrote about this issue in the Atlantic. She said that online dating can be time consuming for many people.
Thank goodness I'm old
Okay, this is all horrifying. Paid matchmakers? Hours and hours on dating apps? Zillions of bad first dates? Why on earth would you want to waste time messaging a bunch of guys you’d chosen on the basis of photos, all of whom could very well be weirdos? And why are women willing to put up with having to “sell” themselves on an app? Don’t people meet in real life anymore?
Anon
Actually no, not really. With so much information on people out there nowadays I find (as a person on the top edge of Gen Z and the bottom edge of Millenials) that it’s creepier to go out with an absolute stranger you meet on the street or at a grocery store. Is the impression of a stranger via 5 minutes of conversation and seeing you irl for that short period of time really that different than meeting from showing interest in a photo and writing to each other for days then meeting for drink or coffee? I don’t think so and I think a lot of people don’t as well. People still meet via their social network (at parties, friends of friends, set ups) but online dating is one of the few ways to meet and vet people not in your immediate social network. Especially amongst professional women and men who work a lot and don’t belong to things like country clubs or church where you can meet people in a familiar and, for lack of better word, pre-vetted setting.
anonymous
………is this the first time you’ve heard of online dating? Or dating apps? Just stop it.
Anon
Lol to the idea you can meet someone at a country club. I belong to one because I’m a golfer and there’s very few single men (respectable club, large Midwest city).
Anon
You’re rude as fork.
I got married at age 37. No amount of perkiness or happiness in my own life magically drew “the one” to me. We met when we met, which was a LOT later than both of would have liked.
We both have fulfilling jobs, rewarding hobbies, and good friends, but were both very, very frustrated with being single. Good thing we found that frustration to be *normal and healthy,* because feeling bad about feeling bad would NOT have improved matters.
You tell high school girls to develop hobbies and themselves because they are 16 and need to have a life outside of being boy crazy. But it is NOT okay to treat grown women like little girls.
(Can I have a “Solidarity With Singles” hashtag?)
Anonymous
OP just saying thanks to everyone who jumped in here with similar comments. :)
Nelly Yuki
Co-signed; well said.
Is it Friday yet?
Yes, thank you. I also want to throw out that I think it’s harder to find someone the happier and more successful you are, because your expectations are commensurately higher. I want an equal partner that makes my life better, not to be in a relationship just for the sake of being in one. I have a lot more emotional maturity and confidence than I did ten years ago, and will put up with a heck of a lot less BS now.
Jules
+1000
Mrs. Jones
+1. I didn’t marry till 38.
Mrs. Smith
Me too! And I really, really resent the advice I received in my 20s (which I followed) that I should just have find and I would someone when I wasn’t looking.
Anon
Question inspired by the post this weekend about a poster who found that after a raise she was spending a lot on outsourcing and not on fun stuff. Another poster fairly pointed out that the outsourcing spends were still wants not needs but it got me thinking. Assuming that he poster was only spending enough on outsourcing to maintain her non-chore/non-work time pre raise, what factors should you consider when accepting a position that pays more? For example, there are the obvious things like how commuting time/expense can quickly eat up an entire raise. But what about other things – I’m thinking things like if you have kids and are moving from a position with little nights/weekends to one where you are expected to be “on call” 24/7 (big law, investment banking), what’s a reasonable calculation of how much you need to spend to perform at the new job? For example, I consider a “cost” of my job to be that sometimes I have to eat the cost of tickets for events that I can’t attend because work comes up, I figure that’s part of why my salary is high. What other spending considerations do you factor in when considering a new job or a promotion?
Anokha
For me, working from home vs facetime is a big consideration. Our office just instituted a WFH policy and it’s made a huge difference in my quality of life. I’m looking for new jobs — but I would need a substantial salary increase (20%) to give up WFH.
Anon
Curious – what kind of work do you do that allows you to WFH exclusively?
Anokha
Not exclusively — I’m in-house, and our company instituted a 2x/week WFH policy. Depending on my workload, I take advantage of it 1-2x/week, and it’s amazing how much it’s changed my attitude.
WFH
Not the person you asked, but I’m a project manager for a large company and I’ve been exclusively WFH for 2.5 years. I worked my first year in the office, then had to move for my husband’s job. Luckily the company already had a solid flex work plan in place, so I didn’t have to fight for it.
anon
The stress level involved — more money is not worth the additional stress, at least in this stage of my life. Also, if 24/7 availability is standard and expected, I am not interested. I have young kids, and there are only so many hours in the day. My free time is already spoken for; I really have nothing left to give in addition to the 40-50 hours a week my job already gets.
anon
Cost of clothes, even though it sounds obvious to bring it up here, and my clothes budget is peanuts compared to many ‘rettes. Some jobs (mainly female office admin) are ridiculously underpaid compared to the appearance they are expected to maintain. I actually spend so much less on clothes now that I’ve been promoted up to a job that takes advantage of my graduate degree. If I went into the private sector, I could probably make easily 2x my salary, but I would need to spend at least 3x my current clothes budget.
Anon
Oh this is so true. I remember running the math when considering an offer at a business formal firm. The costs of suits everyday plus dry cleaning is very very high!
Anon
I have 7-8 close friends who have never met each other – I met them in different stages of life but have kept in touch with them. They all live in the U.S. but in all different states. They have probably heard each other’s names as I plan trips to visit/host them individually, but they don’t know much about each other. I’m thinking about hosting a centralized milestone birthday party next year and inviting all of them. Any tips for making it fun for them to all meet one another? Or should I keep these relationships separate? All women, all in our early-to-mid 30s, some have kids, some are married, all work full time, but in different industries. I have been in this situation a few times at bachelorette parties or weddings when I don’t know anyone else, but never outside of a wedding-event.
cookie
It sounds fun provided you make an effort to make connections between your guests — ex. connect the two friends who love to bake, or the ones who have a travel bug, or the ones who love to knit. I always have the most fun meeting the friends of my friends when effort is put into making sure we all feel included and have easy connections to start chatting. The worst scenario is when the central person clearly treats some friends as the “close” ones and other friends as “less than.”
Anon
As one of those friends, I’d far prefer to spend one-on-one time with you versus being thrown into a mixed-company event because I want to support you. I’m an introvert though, and generally prefer one-on-one over group gatherings. Also, my opinion would be different if there were two groups of them so they would enjoy catching up with each other, or if this were just a dinner out or something similar.
Anonymous
My personal experience is that this kind of thing does not work out the way people envision it will, but feel free to give it a shot. I’ve both coordinated activities where I tried to merge friendships from different eras of my life, and also participated in this when other friends tried it, and in my case none of it ever really gelled. I will also say, selfishly, that while I enjoy my friendships with my female friends, I don’t feel like that obligates me to be friends with their friends – especially if we don’t have much in common.
anonshmanon
Think a bit about introductions, and whether there are natural conversation topics you want to highlight between the women. “This is Miranda, I know her from Sportsball, she also went on a fantastic trip to Indonesia last year”.
Also plan a bit of an activity for your guests, which could just be make your own sundaes, or full-on board games. Having something to do makes things less awkward.
Casper
I’ve been one of the friends in this exact situation. All met up for a mutual friends birthday in a fun city and had a great time! That was about 3 years ago and I’ve traveled with various combos of that group once or twice a year since and we have an ongoing group message. I say go for it!
Anonymous
I think it’s a lovely idea. I would start by talking to 1-2 people that you’re particularly close with and who would likely go on the trip. Get them to commit so you know for sure that the trip is happening and where you’re going. Then you can float your plans to the rest of the group to see how many people can come.
Just be sure to keep your expectations about attendance low, especially if the trip requires folks to get on a plane or take time off work. I think by ~30 people have exhausted their patience/budget/time for event-driven friend trips with relative strangers. I know a lot of 30+ brides who are super disappointed that all their friends whose destination b-parties and weddings they attended don’t want to do the same for them. Ime birthday party, even a 30th or 35th, is even less likely to draw people. But you can still have a great time with whoever wants to come!
Equestrian Attorney
I’m pretty introverted and still enjoy this type of event as long as (1) the group is relatively small (7-8 sounds good to me, I wouldn’t do 20) and (2) the “core” friend spends time with everyone (I have seen these go not great when a small subgroup forms and becomes kind of cliquey).
Anon
Agree with this. I had this issue at my bachelorette party. About half of the bridesmaids knew each other and were close friends. The other half didn’t really know anyone. It turned into two groups of bridesmaids, and I was stressed the whole time trying to hang out with both groups, make sure both groups had fun, etc.
nutella
Yes, I think 7-8 is a good size and I think if you are actively trying to make introductions and chat with the friends this could go well. The key in my mind is (1) as someone said, not making some friends feel more important than others and (2) not having a huge percentage of the group already know each other. (In other words, this goes awry when it’s 6 friends from your college sorority and 3 friends who don’t know each other, the 3 get left out. This isn’t to say that no one should know each other – I think if you had 2 friends that were from high school and are friends but not BFFs that you’d still get good interaction between everyone.) I say do it! We kept these ideas in mind when planning our wedding seating charts and the tables became really good friends!
Anon
I think a lot depends on the individuals but I would be happy to be invited to something like that. You would know best of some just aren’t going to be compatible but in a group that size hopefully everyone has at least a couple people they are happy to sit next to at meals.
I would recommend planning it such that there are a few of set meals/activities all together but otherwise people don’t feel like it’s all group all the time. Example, don’t skip the outdoorsy activity just because not everyone is into it. Plan it and those that want to go and those that don’t can hang at the pool together (or on their own if they want to just chill with a book). Later you all meet for dinner.
I do a group weekend trip like this every year and the coordinator is a travel agent but the attendees are generally all people who know her personally somehow. Even friends who come together generally spend time apart so you don’t get much of the clique-y-ness that can happen and it’s always a lot of fun to get to know everyone else. We usually do dinners planned together but other meals as you want so sometimes just two of us sometimes a bigger group.
mascot
This is a know your friends scenario. As an extrovert who makes friends pretty easily and who has a bunch of friends who are the same, this scenario works. I’ve done bachelorette parties and group trips and it was fun. So maybe talk to your friends and see how they react to the idea. Presumably they know if this is something that they would love or hate.
The original Scarlett
+1 – I’ve gone to things like this that have been amazing where the other women were warm and welcoming (and actually now count as a couple of my closest friends women I met this way), and have gone on less fun trips where the others were cliquey or not interested in meshing with the others. Harder since you’re all coming from different states, but personally, at home, I’ve just started inviting all my girlfriends from different eras over for things and it’s gone great with a lot of new friendships formed. But completely agree it depends on the women.
Dee
i would also add… have an activity or an event that people can immediately bond over and talk about. A show, a book to read, yes a male stripper is fun, or whatever. Something new and happy – an improv show, a trampoline park, whatever. Just… new, so people can bond over new stuff, too, not just the kind of friend you were to them 10 years ago.
I am an extrovert and I LOVE these things.
Anon
I’m generally all for my friends who all live in the same metro area meeting/hang-out with each other, assuming I think that they would get along, and for getting to know my friends’ other friends. However, I’m not sure I would be super excited about spending a significant amount of money (I’m assuming flights, hotels, food, and other expenses) to hang out with people I’ve never meet before and may never see again. (I would feel totally different if there were subgroups, such that I might not spend all of the time with you but could spend all my time catching up with other friends.)
Having said that, I’m all for you doing you and having a big birthday weekend if that is what you want. In terms of making it fun for your friends, I would find activities to do so. (With close friends, I would expect that the majority of the weekend would just be sitting around talking, but that doesn’t work if they don’t know each other.) Depending on the their interests, it could be things like going on a hike or to a museum and watching movies at night or playing board games. I would also recommend trying to make connections between them – A and B both like z, that might be something they could talk about; A used to live in Y, and C is planning a visit.
Anon
I agree with the comment above somewhat. I feel like in my early-mid 20s as an invitee I would have approached this travel scenario like, “whee! I will meet a bunch of new friends and who knows how our paths will cross throughout our lives!”. However, now that I’m in my 30s with kids I recognize that I barely have time to see my long time friends that live a town over, so going on a trip with only people that I don’t know/live in other states would also be a tough sell just b/c I realistically know we are probably barely ever going to see each other again, even if over the trip we become friends.
I have gone on trips with different groups of friends where the groups end up hanging out well during them, but I’ve always been friends with at least a few women heading into it ahead of time, so getting along with everyone else was upside.
Since the OP asked for tips on how to make it enjoyable, here is what I would say: as someone who has limited ability to go on solo trips & therefore has to be choosy about which ones she does, this might go without saying but: it would help to have it be a really fun, enticing location or activity that would otherwise maybe be difficult to plan on my own that would make me excited about wanting to go. You have to know your audience here, but for me for example if my friend organized a ladies trip to go skiing/après skiing in a cute ski town somewhere; or centered the trip around a cool destination Food & Wine festival somewhere, those would be things I would get excited about – even sans knowing everyone. I don’t mean to imply that this is more important to them than seeing YOU per se so don’t take that the wrong way, but everyone can’t separately travel for all of their individual friends, so the trip plan has to come into some sort of play.
anon
I would have reservations about spending money to attend a gathering where I really didn’t know anyone.
Senior Attorney
I had a destination milestone birthday party last year and invited everybody from everywhere, and everybody had a blast. We had about 60 guests and although maybe half of the people all knew one another, there were several people who didn’t know anybody but me and everybody still had fun. We did a boat cruise in New York Harbor with dinner and dancing so there was plenty to do. There was a no-host brunch the morning after for anybody who wanted to come, and beyond that people grouped up for other weekend activities (walking tours, museums, dining, shopping, Broadway shows) as they chose.
Basically the invitation was for the party, not the weekend, and it was great. I say go for it.
Must We Go To The Chapel?
My fiance and I are recently engaged, and the tax/health insurance savings we get from marriage were the primary driving factor for us to make it legal.
We are thinking about going to city hall soon to make it official so that we can start on those health insurance savings right away, but then having an actual wedding later this year or early next year depending on how long it will take to plan it. Is that weird?
We know our immediate families and closest friends will not care an ounce about when the “official” wedding happened relative to the party, but I remember prior controversy here around someone who was thinking of doing something similar.
anon8
I don’t think that’s weird. Some close friends did the same thing and are having a wedding later this summer.
nuqotw
I vote not weird. I know people who have done something like this when a visa was about to expire. There are all sorts of reasons why the legal date and the wedding date might not line up perfectly.
Anon
I only think it’s weird if you hide the fact that you’re legally married and basically have a big fake “wedding” later. A civil ceremony followed by a large celebration in a few months is different.
Must We Go To The Chapel?
But can we still have a ceremony/exchange vows and rings/etc. at the later wedding? I mean, we wouldn’t hide that we’d been to city hall, but we would want to exchange vows in front of the people dear to us. I guess it’s sort of like a vow renewal?
Anon
Personally I think that’d be weird but as long as you didn’t lie to me and tell me it was your wedding I wouldn’t care.
Anonymous
You can absolutely have a vow renewal whenever you want.
Idea
Do it but don’t inconvenience everybody like you would at a first-time wedding – just have the vows and dining reception in same room at almost the same time, don’t move people around like ceremony, cocktails, dinner, make them dance, etc. Just a big ole party and also a witnessing ceremony or anniversary re-enactment or whatever you want.
Anonymous
Eh, I disagree. First, people can have whatever party they want as long as they clearly communicate what’s going on. If you don’t like it then don’t go. Second, there are plenty of reasons the ceremony and reception might have to be at different locations. Maybe they want the ceremony to be in a church, or somewhere handicap accessible, or they could only afford 3 hours at a venue not the 5 it would’ve cost to include the ceremony and c*cktail hour. It’s clearly more convenient to have everything in one location, if it’s not done that way then there’s a very good reason for it.
Never too many shoes...
I got yelled at last time, but we got married at city hall for purely immigration reasons after we had already planned our wedding and announced the date. Our wedding took place as scheduled a year later and we had a “typical” wedding at that time, church ceremony, white dress, dinner and dancing and speeches… Nobody knew about our city hall wedding at the time but I later told people and not one of them cared.
Equestrian Attorney
Lots of people I know did this for immigration reasons. No one I know really cared.
Anon
Oof good for you that no one cared but I’d be livid if this happened. I would rearrange all sorts of plans and spend silly money to make a wedding. I would be outraged and possibly end a friendship if I spent thousands to make a wedding that wasn’t a wedding.
Anonymous
Hey Anon, what Never too many shoes described IS A WEDDING. When people need to have an immediate civil ceremony to protect their partner for immigration or health care reasons, they’re not doing it just to annoy you, I promise. Sounds like your friendship isn’t worth having if you are too important to come to a church ceremony, dinner, dancing and speeches.
Anonymous
It is crazy to me that you’d spend thousands to attend a wedding for someone you presumably care about, but end that same relationship if the event was important and meaningful to them but not the legal date of the wedding. Totally bonkers.
Anon
I don’t think it’s totally bonkers of me to end a friendship over being lied to about a signicant life event and spending a lot of money on an event that wasn’t what it was billed to be. I think I value honesty in my friendships more than you do apparently. To be clear, depending on how close I was to the couple I would still spend thousands to attend a vow renewal/celebration party if I knew what it was (in fact I have done so). It’s the lying part that would be friendship ending for me. As others have pointed out below, you are not entitled to how I spend my money and you lying to me to get me to spend money on an event (which I may have spent anyways if you’d been honest) makes you a shitty friend. I don’t care what type of party you have, just don’t lie to me about it.
Anon
It’s literally none of your business. A lot of people are getting lying confused with being entitled to information that’s none of their business.
Anon
How is it not lying to say you’re “getting married” when you are already married?
Anon
+1 I think a civil ceremony followed by a big celebration is totally fine. I do think it’s weird to pretend that the big celebration is a wedding when you’re already married. Definitely be above board with everyone on what you’re doing. There are lots of people who would be very upset if they thought they were attending a wedding when they were not (by definition the later party cannot be a wedding since you’ll have already wedded previously). I’ve attended several celebrations months after a civil ceremony and they’ve all been lovely.
Anon
My friend got married in Europe (to a European) and they were already civilly married. We were all invited to their church wedding. They made a real distinction between something they did for paperwork reasons vs the church wedding, which they considered their real wedding – being married before their god and their family was what they considered real.
You get to decide what is real to you. Don’t let a bunch of strangers make you feel bad about it.
Anonymous
Yeah but in most parts of Europe you have to do it this way.
Anon
So why are we so uptight about it here then? Why don’t they call it not-meaningful in Europe.
I really don’t get the animosity. It’s so stupid to me that people would get hung up on “but it’s not the real ceremony!” It’s not about you. It’s about the couple getting married.
Anon
But it isn’t just about the couple! If it’s just about the couple then just elope. If you invite other people they are your guests and should be treated with respect. I don’t know how lying to your guests is ok. If the cultural norm is that this is how it’s done and everyone knows that then you’re not lying. But in the US the legal and religious ceremony don’t need to be and very typically aren’t. Religions consider you married even if you are “only” legally married here. I think people just care about not being lied to
ijs
But it’s usually closer in date like same day or a few days apart, not months or a year+ for non-voluntary reasons like in this post
Mpls
We’re “uptight” about it here (US) because it IS different. In the US, there is no distinction between a religious and civil ceremony. That is, getting married in a church ALSO gets you married on a legal basis, though the converse is not true (though the religious ceremony won’t make you any MORE married). That’s the way US law is set up. My understanding is that in Europe you need to have separate ceremonies because the religious ceremony doesn’t do anything legally (can anyone confirm)? So the expectations and requirements are different. And maybe the civil and religious ceremonies/paperwork are usually done pretty contemporaneously in Europe? So they aren’t usually happening months apart, but in the same week?
Equestrian Attorney
I’m attending a wedding in July in Europe (actually I’m a bridesmaid, yay!) and they got legally married in November. I also got married in Europe and did City Hall legal wedding in the morning (with close families in attendance) and ceremony (nonreligious, BIL officiated) + big party in the afternoon/evening (it was a looooong day). I’ve seen it done either way and no one seems to mind, but I realize this isn’t the norm in the US. My husband is Canadian and we had to explain to his family and friends why things were being done this way, but they went with it and several of them flew transatlantically to attend our “fake” (apparently) wedding, which was incredibly meaningful to us and warmed our hearts beyond belief. I’m really sad to read that people would break off friendships over this.
Anon
I don’t think anyone is saying they’d break off a friendship over what you did. People seem to only care about the being lied to part, which it doesn’t sound like you did.
Anon
Be upfront with your guests about what you are doing. The controversy comes when people are invited to a reenactment and believe they are watching the event.
Anonymous
I think the controversy is whether you’re honest with people that the legal marriage part has already happened. It’s 100% fine to get married and have a reception later. It’s not so cool to lie to your loved ones by implying that you’re not married yet. When you’re inviting people to spend their time and money to celebrate you, tell them what they’re celebrating. Maybe they won’t care! But maybe they would move heaven and earth to see you actually marry your SO but wouldn’t do the same to attend a party celebrating a marriage that’s already happened. Ultimately it’s up to them.
Anonymous
It me exactly. I really care about seeing people get married! If you don’t care about having me see you get married that’s cool. But I’m not into your party, and I’m not going to a shower, and I think a bachelorette when you’re already married is stupid.
Anon
This. If you invite me to a party cesbrating your marriage, I’ll be happy for you and send a gift and possibly attend if it’s convenient for me. But I won’t move heaven and earth and spend thousands of dollars to attend the way I would a wedding. It’s not the same, and deceiving people is not cool. Just be honest about it.
Anonymous
If you don’t care to have me at your wedding, when you get married, I don’t care to watch you play pretend wedding. Do what you want, I’m cool with just declining!
Anon
I think it’s weird if your reason for doing so is to save money. I think there are plenty of legit reasons for doing this (terminally ill parent, deployment, serious illness in the couple, etc) but saving money on insurance is not one of them.
However, I’m pretty surprised how shocked and upset some people are at this idea! I’d still attend the ceremony and reception, I’d just think it was odd.
Anon
I will be the voice of dissent, and say that I think it is weird to get married and then have a wedding ceremony and big reception later. Part of this is based on the fact that I almost always have to travel to weddings – somehow it feels like you are sending the message that saving some money on health insurance is more valuable/important than me spending over $1k to attend what amounts to a fake ceremony (I would feel differently if it was a visa issue). I would be fine with it if it was just a reception, but would also probably not travel for that. Either way, I’m not going to say anything to the couple that I find it weird.
Anonymous
Yup.
Anon
That is so lame, honestly. Why can’t you be happy for your friends? Why does it matter so much to you?
Anon
I care about my friends not lying to me. That’s why it matters.
Anonymous
I think she already said why it matters to her? She’s spending a small fortune to attend this event. Some events are worth that kind of expenditure and some are not. Where that line lies is solely up to her. You don’t have to agree with her (and fwiw, I don’t, I would attend either way), but you don’t get to spend her money for her.
You have to respect your friends’ right to make their own decisions about how to spend their time and money. If I lied and said I’m turning 30 everyone come to Vegas to celebrate me! but really I was turning 31, I don’t think people would be all, ohhh but your friends should want to celebrate you anyway what does it matter? It matters because you’re asking people to go to a lot of trouble and expense for you. Maybe some people would come to Vegas to celebrate 31 – and that’s great! – but maybe some would not – and that is their prerogative. And no I don’t get to say, but I didn’t have a big party for my 30th because Reasons so I get a do-over and I can still call it my 30th. That’s just not how it works. Be up front with people, let them make their own decisions, and appreciate the people who show up for you.
Eh
I don’t understand this. You ARE attending an event. Is it actually even any of your business if they signed some papers a year ago? (The lying part would not be cool, but this OP has indicated she is going to let people know they are already legally married, so that’s not at issue here.) You are watching them profess their love for one another and eating cake and dancing and celebrating. Enjoy it or don’t. But it seems super petty to say you’ll spend $1K to “celebrate” with your friend BUT ONLY if she hasn’t done some prior paperwork. WHY DO YOU CARE?? It does not change one single thing about the event that you’ll attend. Not a single thing. And the argument that it’s now a “fake” wedding because they are already legally married is also super petty. THIS IS HER WEDDING.
Anon
I think she explained why she cares quite well. The wedding part is important to her. Some people think birthdays are a big deal. Or Christmas or anything. It’s not up to you to decide what is/isn’t important. The fact that some people lie about actually already being married in hopes that people attend actually proves that the wedding part is very important to some people. I don’t care about celebrating Christmas on the actual day and celebrate with my not local family the next week. But I’m not going to tell someone who spends a fortune on plane tickets to make it home for the actual day they are crazy. It’s just important to them in a way it isn’t to me. Some people feel similarly about weddings. I don’t know why it’s so hard to grasp that just becauseYOU don’t care about something doesn’t mean no one else does. Also I don’t understand how so many people are apparently cool with lying to loved ones
Anon
+1
I don’t understand this at all. I just want to celebrate with my friends. Hooray you got married let’s have a party!
Anon
But your not celebrating an event that just happened. Your celebrating an event that happened 1 year+ ago, and which you may or may not know is happening right now.
And the only reason it happened a year ago is so that the couple could save money. But I’m suppose to spend a significant amount of money a year later to celebrate? That just seems fake
Anon
*you’re
Annonnnn
+1 The vows are the least appealing thing to me about a wedding, especially religious ceremonies. Celebrating my friends and their marriage/birthday/event whenever it happened, and seeing other friends, eating and drinking, and having fun are my goals at any celebration. The money expense is the same either way for me. I am not moving heaven and earth for anyone. My budget is my budget and if your event exceeds it, I’m a no, regardless of what the event is.
At the end of the day, I want my friends to make the decision that’s best for them. Shrug.
Anon
Don’t go if you can’t be happy for the couple because some papers were signed and a judge spoke a few words. There, your problem is solved. It’s not their job to inform you on the legal status of everything. If you ask, you’ll get an answer “yeah we had the legal part and are doing the real wedding X date.” If that makes you angry, you’re too uptight to be a decent friend anyway. Go sit down somewhere in your misery.
Anon
I guess where we differ is that I think the legal part is the “real” part. Declaring your self to be spouses and having all the legal benefits that entails is what marriage is about to me (for example, the health insurance savings benefits that the OP wants). Celebrating it with your friends; fun but not necessary (which is probably why I want to elope). If you have already done the legal part long ago, then the ceremony is just playing dress up to me because nothing changes after it.
The original Scarlett
I would do whatever makes sense for you two to do, and I’d forget about asking the internet for permission.
Anonymous
I think I was the one with the prior controversy! People on this board were very anti go to the chapel (courthouse for me) and then have “wedding” later, and also didn’t believe me that tax/health insurance savings were real. For the record, DH is an accountant and we were not mistaken about the savings. Anyway, I say do it. You relationship is your business, no one else’s.
Anonymous
I find these discussions here to be incredibly bizarre. This “I will pay thousands to watch the magical moment of ‘I Do’, but only if you were just living together and sleeping together and attending each other’s family events together beforehand. If you had the audacity to actually contractually marry WITHOUT ME, you can keep your little fake party. Parties in churches that cost a lot are about making legal commitments under the law. Everything else is a sham and I WILL NOT participate in your little charade!”
Anon
I did not live with my husband or sleep with him before the wedding. The moment we said “I do” was the one wherein all that changed. We got married in a church, with a religious ceremony, because we also pledged to God that this was until death do us part.
This doesn’t make us better or worse than anyone else, but I think you are taking a very narrow-minded view of marriage. It’s important for you to expand your horizons and understand that people have different beliefs about marriage than you do, and those beliefs aren’t dumb, less valid, or irrational because your bubble operates differently.
Anonymous
But no one thus far said they only want to attend weddings for Joshua Harris-following religious and celibate couples for whom the wedding will be the moment everything changed for the couple. I might be able to get behind that. It is especially appealing because I would then never have to attend any weddings.
Annonnnn
BAHAHA Yes.
Anon
Is it already Let’s Say Snotty Things About Christians Day again? Didn’t we have that last week?
lydia
best comment today!
Anonymous
None of my comments have been anti-Christian or even anti-religion. My comments are about wedding ceremonies and whether they are meaningful in the absence of a legal component. If anything they support the idea that, perhaps, there is something relevant about a church service. Unless what you are upset about is a benign reference to Joshua Harris. My comment actually makes no judgment about him, but if you want someone who has bad things to say about the writings of Joshua Harris, see, e.g., Joshua Harris.
Anon
Cut the crap, ladies.
We all know you were being derogatory and prejudiced. Get out of your bigoted, narrow-minded bubbles, stop stereotyping people who live differently, and stop being nasty little nasties.
Anon
So since you feel that your vows before god are the only ones that count, you’re cool with the civil ceremony not being the real wedding, right?
Anon
For myself or others? I would not pledge to a civil authority before making that pledge before God, but you do you. Just be upfront about it.
Anonymous
You’re being mocked, but I also felt like the religious ceremony was the real wedding, not the legal part. There’s no divorce in my religion, so the religious commitment is a much bigger deal in my mind.
Anonymous
None of my comments have been anti-Christian or even anti-religion. My comments are about wedding ceremonies and whether they are meaningful in the absence of a legal component. If anything they support the idea that, perhaps, there is something relevant about a church service. Unless what you are upset about is a benign reference to Joshua Harris. My comment actually makes no judgment about him, but if you want someone who has bad things to say about the writings of Joshua Harris, see, e.g., Joshua Harris.
Irish Midori
I’m same as you, anon. I set my wedding date early based on when my lease was up, as it ran against my beliefs to sleep with/live with someone to whom I was not married. So for me, the marriage was a dramatic status shift. I do get a little more confused when people put a lot of significance into a wedding where the couple has been living together for some time, and may have a mortgage (or even children) together already. In that case, I see little reason to care whether the wedding coincides with the paperwork, as it seems the committed relationship predates both.
*Please don’t misread me as being unsupportive of those relationships. Just different beliefs from me, which diversity makes the world go ’round.
Anonymous
When I see a woman, whose number is 20, dressed in a flowy white dress and carrying an harmful of lilies, neither of which she can really afford, walking in 4-in Louboutin heels down the aisle of the church to which she converted just three months ago, arm-in-arm with her previously estranged father, and being “given” by him to the man she’s been shacking up with for 18 months, what I am thinking is: If I find out there is already a marriage contract, I am going to feel so duped!
Anonymous
hahaha
Anon
Holy slut shaming there, Batman.
Anonymous
Not at all. The commentary is about the integrity of a ceremony cloaked in symbols of chastity and purity. My number is higher and likely to increase.
Anon
Can we stop with thinking that a white wedding dress is a symbol of chastity? It’s a tradition that started in 1840 and has to do with people imitating royalty.
Mocking women who wear white but aren’t virgins is sick.
Signed,
Waited until my wedding night, wore ivory, and am so furious about the way non-virgin women in their nuptial finery are mocked that I really wanted to wear ruby red in solidarity.
Anonymous
The chip on your shoulder is bringing you to my one and only point: It is silly to suggest that a wedding party is meaningless and unworthy of your attendance unless there is a contemporaneous legal component to it. It’s a weird position to take for me, and particularly inconsistent for those also suggesting the religious component to the ceremony has meaning/value and those who overlook the absurdity of any number of rituals in many wedding ceremonies/parties.
Anonymous
Yeah I don’t get it either. Weddings are essentially parties celebrating a commitment that is an ongoing process, not a single moment. My best friend married suddenly at the courthouse for immigration reasons and had a larger celebration about 6 months later. She was already engaged but they had to move up the legal ceremony due to VISA problems. I happen to live in the same town so got to go to both, but didn’t think it was weird at all that they had a “wedding” later, especially because a big part of the reason they had one was to give their parents a day to celebrate.
cookie
+1 this discussion is SO bizarre to me. People are willing to jump through hoops to celebrate their friends’ marriages, but only if it lines up precisely with what they think the ceremony should look like?
I legally married a few months prior to my destination (non-US) wedding because the other country had bizarre marriage requirements that I didn’t want to do. So we signed the paperwork beforehand to make it legal but didn’t tell anyone because why was that anyone’s business? It didn’t make our real wedding any less meaningful or special, and no one would ever know unless they looked up the date of our marriage license.
Anon
It doesn’t mean that your ceremony wasn’t meaningful but that ceremony was not your wedding since you were in fact already wed. Some people care about that some people don’t. So why not just be upfront with people and let them decide if they care or not rather than lying and making that decision for them.
all about eevee
Oh my God you are so weird why do you care about this so much. It is clear that you are the one person writing every. Single. Angry. Comment. About this topic.
Anon
Actually, eevee, she was beyond reasonable and you’re losing your sh-t.
Anon
+1 bizarre and weirdly uptight
editrix
This reminds me of the outrage by Paulie Walnuts when he found out that he’d been raised since birth by his kind and loving aunt, not his birth mother, a nun.
anonymous
My cousin and his wife did this and it rubbed everyone the wrong way. They got married for her to get on his health insurance and because (1) they didn’t like the date as an anniversary (it was November and they wanted it to be summer for outdoor pictures) and (2) wanted to plan a huge wedding, so the big wedding was a year and 9 months later in the summer. They said the first time “didn’t count” because it wasn’t in a church and in front of family, but… we weren’t invited. And if they had said, we need to get married in two weeks, please come, we would have come! And we would have gone to a reception later! And we would have thrown her showers (after the fact), too!
It varies on the person, but here are the common refrains I have heard as to why people didn’t like it: we weren’t invited to the actual wedding, the fact that she wanted a summer wedding but not even the summer immediately following but rather the one the year after so that they could plan and get their venue, the fact that it was a big wedding with bridesmaids and all the accoutrements, the fact that it was an hour’s drive to the church and then another 45 mins to the must-have venue for the reception, the fact that they had been dating for 8 years and it was her second wedding and they probably could have planned timing better if it was so important for her insurance, and finally the fact that they told us that she could have joined his insurance as a domestic partner under Obamacare (!)
I think it’s the lie of it – they also moved to a bordering state for tax reasons but say their address is their parents’ in another state so that they could work in that state and send their kids to school there. People just didn’t like the lie of it.
Seventh Sister
Gosh, they do sound inconsiderate! The logistics around the summer wedding would have bugged me the most – I don’t get a lot of free time and having to do all that driving and waiting around sounds like a great way to blow most of the weekend.
Anon
I so agree with the above comment about doing what you want and not asking the internet for permission. You don’t have any obligation to tell anyone anything. What is the difference between this and a couple getting married who already lives together? You’re doing the paperwork now for business reasons, which is no one else’s business, and having your real wedding where you verbally commit to each other, say your vows, etc at a later date. It’s not like you’re saying your vows now and then reciting them again for show in front of people (or maybe I misread). Your tax information, financial status, immigration position, whatever the case may be, is no one else’s business. I’m sick of people crucifying others just because their relationship doesn’t look the way they think it should (take it from a very non-traditional military spouse). Do what makes sense to you and your partner, OP.
Anon
Lying. That’s the difference. Last time I checked you don’t announce during the ceremony that you’re a virgin or haven’t lived together. But if you’re legally married and invite people to a wedding, you’re lying. It’s not a wedding, it’s a party.
Anon
I guess it’s just a difference of opinion then, because I don’t view it as lying at all. This whole thread makes me so happy that I’m planning an elopement because as evidenced by comments above, guests seem to think the wedding is about them. Also, OP says her family and close friends won’t care and she isn’t inviting you so…
Anon
OP can do whatever she wants, but people are explaining why they’d be displeased if they found out a friend did this. They’re not mutually exclusive. Also I’d never tell a friend to their face that I find this tacky, so I’m not sure how you can really be sure everyone is 100% on board.
Anon
I’m surprised to see so much discussion of what seems to be framed as an “obligation” to disclose to your guests. In my opinion, it’s no one’s business what legal actions/ceremonies/etc you and your partner partake in prior to your wedding celebration. If I attended a wedding and found out the couple was already married on paper, I wouldn’t give it a second thought. The point of a wedding from the guest perspective is to celebrate the union of a loved one. I don’t see how being married on paper should detract from any guest’s ability to be happy to do that.
Anon
Correction: the role from YOUR perspective is to celebrate the union of a loved one. Clearly from this thread others feel differently.
If the legally already married part isn’t such a big deal then why lie about it?
Anon
I feel like if things aren’t a big deal then I don’t mention them at all
Anon
Except by calling it a wedding you are lying. A wedding is when two people get married. Call it a celebration of marriage or a vow renewal or whatever other term you want that isn’t wedding.
Anonymous
I think it is not weird to have a religious or personal ceremony + reception at a later date, but it’s weird to conceal the fact that you’ve already had a civil ceremony. Also somehow weird to have a bacherlorette party after you are technically married.
Anon
Not weird at all and very very common. Anyone who claims “I’d be pissed cause it’s not really a wedding” are just espousing one, in my opinion pretty extreme and uncommon view. Were the weddings of LGBT people not really a wedding because it wasn’t legal? Are destination not real weddings because people got legally married a week before in their own jurisdiction? Then why would a real wedding not be considered a real wedding because the legalities were already taken care of? It’s splitting hairs and tbh, if anyone makes such a big deal out of it, they’re probably to uptight to have fun at the wedding anyone, better they don’t go.
OP do your full ceremony, I encourage personal vows, but skip the “by the power vested in me by the State of X” because that part was already done. Have fun and don’t worry about the haters.
Anon
+ 1 million
emeralds
Agreed, seriously.
I feel like there’s a minority here who is SO OFFENDED by this, but that does not map at all onto the experiences or conversations that I’ve had elsewhere in my life.
Anon
I don’t think anyone has an issue with LGBT ceremonies before they same sex marriage was legalized. If anything the view that “legal marriage” is just a piece of paper or a formality seems to minimize all the hard work done by people to get the right for that piece of paper that apparently isn’t a big deal to a lot of posters.
I think the overwhelming commentary on here is that people don’t like being lied to. There seem to be another set (or subset) who think separating the legal wedding and a “wedding” ceremony is weird but they don’t seek to be overly offended by it just think it’s weird. The lying is the offensive part.
Anon
I would never advocate for lying but the Poole flummoxing me are those who say they’d never attend a church wedding or wedding celebration for someone who was already civilly/legally married. That is so petty it just blows my mind.
Anon
I agree. I may have missed it but I don’t think I saw anyone saying that. I’d attend the ceremony even if the couple were married (but might Be less inclined to travel if inconvenient than I would otherwise for a wedding) but I would be super upset to find out after the fact.
Anonymous
It’s only a few very vocal hysterics who even think it’s “lying” to invite guests to a wedding if the civil ceremony was previously performed. It’s not lying. If the vows you make in front of your friends and family are what you believe is most important (why else would you be going through the trouble of a wedding), then that’s your wedding and no one else gets to tell you otherwise. It’s none of their business when you signed the papers.
all about eevee
Honestly, from the style and the tone, I am pretty sure it is one vocal hysteric.
Blueberries
The legal significance of getting married is both romantic (obligating yourself to care for someone in so many ways! It’s kind of of bananas unless you’re totally in love) and important. It was not that long ago when lots of people, including people very dear to me, couldn’t get married because of their sexual orientation.
It wasn’t even that long ago that my parents couldn’t have gotten married, or that I couldn’t have gotten married, because of race.
I imagine that I’ll always place special importance on witnessing people exercise their civil right to get married. To me, that is the wedding and I cry happy tears for the couple and for a country that has come so far with this particular civil right.
However, if friends separate out the wedding and a celebration of marriage (and even call it a wedding), I’ll still joyfully celebrate their marriage.
Anon
I have been seeing pictures at stores of models wearing hip length blazers belted over an A-Line or fit and flare dress. Is this something people wear in real life? I have not seen this anywhere, but I like the style and think it would look flattering on me. Example: https://www.ofmercer.com/collections/style-inspiration?utm_campaign=ALine%20Dresses%20and%20Blazer%20%28MTjf2j%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Of%20Mercer%20List%201%20%28JC%20Version%29&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJibWNvcGxvbkBnbWFpbC5jb20iLCAia2xfY29tcGFueV9pZCI6ICJFSFVlUGMifQ%3D%3D
Also, if anyone does this, what types of blazers/belts/dresses work with this?
Triangle Pose
TBH, this looks really fussy to me the 2-3 times I’ve seen it IRL, I think people get the proportions wrong more often than not. But that shouldn’t matter, if it flatters you, do it!
idea
This reads as Michelle Obama 2008-2013 to me. Is it still a thing?
anon
Its Michelle’s look….you have to have the right proportions….small on top and tall like Michelle. I am busty so this would look terrible, but the look actually works great for pear shapes….
anon
I don’t love it and think it would be very difficult to pull off.
TBH, I hated the “belt everything” era. So many layers and things to fuss with and constantly adjust.
Anonymous
Yeah, I don’t understand how belting a blazer or sweater works in real life. What happens when you move and the blazer shifts under the belt? The look is only practical for energetic businesswomen in magazine ads.
Candidate
I’m pear shaped, and I do a riff on this without the belt. This winter, I’ve been doing (sleeveless) collared shirt, sweater, houndstooth blazer, grey a-line skirt, black tights, and black oxfords. It’s sort of schoolboy, sort of Thom Browne, very covered up, maybe a little preppy? My main criteria is, it’s warm!
Anon
I think the belt is still reminiscent of 2008 and would skip.
K
When the election finally comes in 2020, Bernie will be 79. I really think this is just too old. I know that is ageist, but I can’t get over it. Anyone else?
Anon
I want Bernie and everyone who ran before to just go away. We need new faces and new ideas. And no I don’t mean AOC. But I’m excited about Kamala, even though she’s not perfect. Bernie can’t do anything but spoil the race again.
Anon
He didn’t spoil anything, though. He didn’t run in the general after he lost the nomination. You can blame the DNC for seriously mishandling every aspect of his candidacy and then making all of us pay the price.
K
I don’t think he spoiled it, but his supporters that refused to vote for Hillary put a bad taste in my mouth.
Lavinia
Except that he’s not even a registered Democrat and that’s the way our political system works. Unless there’s a massive change in how politics works, if he wants the DNC to support him, he needs to support them.
Anon
Agree
The party wants to run people from the party. That’s how parties work.
Anon
I agree with previous contenders going away
Anon
I feel the same way – bad about being ageist but I also want some younger blood. I’m not on the AOC train either (at least not completely) but I think a decent candidate in the 40s-50s would be ideal.
Idea
Unless you’re in her district, you don’t *have* to be on her train!
I realized I don’t dig her right now and this was a comforting thought to me.
Anon
I like AOC just because she keeps the conservatives busy frothing at the mouth. They are totally obsessed with her
True
I also felt the same way about Hillary vs. DJT in 2016 – I’ve been ready for the post-Baby Boom generation since the post-Nixon era.
You could say I was born ready. In 1979.
Anon
The double standard kills me – can you imagine if Hillary tried to run again? She’d be ripped to shreds as a loser who already had her chance. But somehow it’s ok for Bernie – who couldn’t even win the nomination – to do it? I agree generally about not wanting either of them to be the nominee and wanting fresh, younger faces. But the double standard bothers me so much.
anon
+1
Everyone has been screeching and hollering that Hillary better not even DARE to think of running again, faux news has been doing scare pieces about her running again since the election was over. I’ve never heard her suggest she’s going to run again, so this isn’t a response to anything rational, just an overarching desire to make sure she stays in her place.
Anon
Same, girl. Same.
Anon
It’s generally seen as okay to run again if you ran before and didn’t win the nomination. HRC did it herself. I’m not seeing the double standard here.
Anon
Um…
Um…
You know that Hillary ran in 2016 after losing the primary in 2008, right?
Right?
Maybe?
No, no you don’t know that.
anon
Needless rudeness is not a good look, btw. What happened to this s*te?
Anon
Sorry, too busy laughing to be shamed! :)
Spend less time sticking your nose in the air and more time learning the basic history of American presidential elections in recent memory, and maybe you won’t have as much need to whine about rudeness.
Anon
I’m the person who made the original comment about a double standard and obviously I know the history and that Hillary was the runner up in the primary in 08. It doesn’t change the fact that there’s a sex-based double standard. And it’s not just about Bernie either – Al Gore has been mentioned as a potential candidate this year despite being the nominee and losing in the general election before. I don’t think he’ll run, but if he wanted to, there’d be far less backlash than there would be to a Hillary candidacy. Part of that is the passage of time, I get that, but sex plays a huge role as well.
anon
You appear to be confused. I’m not the person who replied to. I just told you you were rude, because you are rude. You’re just a jerk. Go away.
Anon
Instead of complaining about how “rude” I am, you need to admit that you are wrong.
Hillary had, like Bernie, lost a hard-fought primary nomination. She ran in 2016, without the “blowback” you believe would occur because of “sexism.”
Actual sexism is out there. Inventing it does not help.
anon
Who are you talking to? I’m not the person who said anything about Hillary running. I’m not Anon at 10:41 or anyone else in this thread talking about Hillary running. I’m not wrong about anything. You’re just rude.
Anon
So the f#ck what?
Lots of candidates make multiple attempts…look at Trump. Dude’s first presidential run was in 2000.
Anon
Exploratory phase only: he was never a candidate.
DifPerspective
Hilary ran in the primary in 2008 but was not the nominee. I think the ‘rule’ is that if you are the party’s candidate it’s your only shot, but if you run in the primary you can run again.
Anonymous
Hiliary ran terrible campaigns. Two time loser.She never visited Wisconsin ONCE. She disappeared for the entire month of August. Come on. She should not be given a 3rd chance.
lsw
+1
Anonymous
I have so many reasons I hate Bernie. His age doesn’t need to be one.
anon
Same. I’m a Democrat who is not on board with Bernie.
Anon
Me too. Bernie bros refuse to believe we exist.
Anon
Yup I’m a swing state Democrat who will sit at home if it’s Bernie vs Trump. I abhor Trump but I won’t vote for Bernie. The only upside to him being the nominee would be that it would finally shut up the “he woulda won in 2016” bros. He won’t win. Trump would wipe the floor with him.
Horse Crazy
You realize that sitting at home is allowing Trump to win again, right?
PolyD
That’s cool that your “morals” will help Trump win?
Anon
If you sit at home and let Trump win, you are the problem and you clearly don’t dislike Trump that much (if at all?)
Anon
Nope, try again, I do despise Trump but I also despise Bernie. I would definitely vote for any other Democrat running or speculated to be running so far. Heck, I would vote for pretty much anyone that was pulled out of thin air that isn’t Trump, but I won’t vote for Bernie. There are more of us than you think and nominating Bernie is a recipe for another 4 years of Trump.
PolyD
I just don’t get how a vote for Bernie would be so, so much worse than letting Trump continue on with his destructive course. What does it damage you to cast a vote for a person you don’t agree with 100% vs allowing someone who imprisons children to be president?
And I say this as someone who has no use for Bernie or many of his supporters.
Annonnnn
Oh lord, here we go again. This is how Trump wins again. WTF.
Anon
No, this is why Bernie should not run, or at least not get the nomination.
Anonymous
This. I have so many things I dislike that age doesn’t even come near the list.
Anonymous
Jewish people just not for you?
Anon
I don’t think it’s “bad” to be ageist in this situation… the reality is his health, cognition, and life expectancy are very pertinent to the job he wants. Sure there are some healthy 79 year olds, but it’s silly to pretend his health and expected cognitive status over the next 6 years are the same as that of a 50yo.
Source: am neurologist
Seventh Sister
For me I don’t really care about his age, it’s the second coming of the Bernie bros. I really don’t need more Bernie bros waxing on and on about how *wonderful* Bernie is when there is nothing and no one I blame more for 2016 than Bernie.
Anon
Question for the equestrians – what are your tips for developing ankle flexibility to keep your heels down when you ride? My ankles are so inflexible that I can’t squat on the ground and keep my feet on the floor. I’ve been trying to squat and stretch more, but with little improvement and it’s affecting my position when I ride. Should I be targeting other muscle groups or trying other exercises instead?
anon
Not an equestrian, but I like the bosu for ankle flexibility.
C2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJ60pakSdg
I am by no means an expert and haven’t trained with a trainer in a long time, but I remember doing heel down stretches every time I went up a set of stairs, and doing a lot of calf raises on staircases as a junior rider. Check your foot position – I have wide feet and really have to turn my stirrup out more than I feel I should to get it firmly under the ball of my foot. Also check your stirrup length, try it slightly shorter and see if that helps you get your legs in a more comfortable position.
Equestrian Attorney
+ 1 on the stairs thing. I do it after my morning run (pros of living in a 2nd floor walk-up) and it helps. But I also have lost ankle flexibility with age (and I’m 30 so I imagine it’s only going to get worse) and after I sprained my ankle while hiking I still have a lot of residual stiffness on that side.
Agree that fitting in a shorter stirrup ride from time to time will also help, but don’t force it and injure yourself.
mary kelly
As a 5′ tall person who started riding at 55, I understand – all those years of trying to get my toes to touch the ground. I have a rocking foot rest at work, which has been a real help. But do be aware that often times “heels down” really means your body is tilted forward and the instructor wants you verticle.
Aggie
Agreed, it is often more about back position than ankle flexibility.
Is it Friday yet?
Standing with the balls of your feet on the edge of a stair and sinking your weight into your heels is a good stretch if you haven’t tried it. Yoga can help. On the horse, stuff like double posting or getting in half seat for ages is good at getting your balance into your lower leg.
But really, it’s not about having your heels down so much as having your balance in the right place – heels down is the beginner distillation of it (unless you’re doing equitation, but realize that hyper-flexed ankle position is a cosmetic conceit). I have a super stiff ankle after a bad break and several surgeries and also cannot squat without my heels coming up because it does not bend that way anymore. If you look at pictures of me riding, the heel on that leg is never really down, but it doesn’t make a difference because my weight is in the right place and everything else is correct so my lower leg never moves. A lot of the time, it helps people to reframe – it’s not about rigidly keeping your heel down (maybe think about pointing your toes up), it’s sending your weight down through your calf and towards the ground.
AnonEq
Form follows function. Focus less on the actual position of your heels in reference to the vertical and more on the amount of weight distributed to those ankles in the first place. Not everyone can rock the big-eq ultra-dropped heels look, but as long as your weight is flowing down the leg instead of to your hips or knees you’re on the right track.
Horse Crazy
I just bought tickets to go see Aerosmith in Vegas! I am so excited. What should I wear???
Idea
Jeans and black shirt and comfortable shoes. Big earrings. Crossover purse.
This is pretty much what I wear to every concert.
Leah
Hard no on big earrings to a concert. People flail around, things get stuck and ripped. I learned this the hard way.
Monday
Leather skinny pants. Red lipstick.
Anon
Looking for suggestions for a theme for a political club fundriaser. It’s at a club member’s home with a beautiful garden on a Sunday from 11-1 in May. Our past themes have been champagne brunch (with a mimosa bar), garden party, and Kentucky Derby. Any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!
Idea
May I suggest… a “tea” party.
Iced tea. Flavors include imPEACH
SANDersWiches
Pelosi Pesto Pasta (this is just pesto pasta with a P in front).
Fair Trade harvested tomatoes and basil salad
Union-made desserts.
K
LOL love that
Anon
Lilly Pulitzer? “Sweet spring” with a dessert bar? True blue/everything’s coming up roses (choose the appropriate side). If in the minority, Winds of Change with kites? Take me out to the ballgame?
A real "Garden" Party
If it’s a political club, why not go full patriotic, red white and blue. Independence Day in May (or whatever month) – change correspondingly for different country.
If looking for something less on the nose, maybe an actual “Garden” party – I recently went to an event where a gardening company came out with succulents and people got to choose a pot, the succulents (the gardeners planted them in front of the guest so no hands got dirty), and the guest got to decorate the top of the soil with colored crystals. Was a real hit and party favors were handled.
Anon
Guys, talk to me about FMLA or other accommodations when your depression and anxiety are so bad you’re barely able to function at work. I’m working through drugs right now with my shrink since my old one quit on me, and the first new one we’ve tried has made everything soooo much worse – sobbing, jitters, more crying, and the old standby CantGetAnythingDone. I am just barely holding things together – I know it’s reflecting poorly on me.
I work at a 100-person law firm, but I’m not in an attorney role (think lawyer in comms/BD – I bill, but only to keep track of my time; I don’t have billables to meet). I’m dropping balls for the two male partners I work with most, but there’s one female partner I work with who’s amazing and caring and an all-round awesome human being – the type you’ll actually stay in touch with after you leave a place. I could tell her if it’d be useful. Our HR team is pretty good, too. We’re a small, family-like firm, but depression and anxiety are so hard to understand from the outside looking in that I’m not sure what to do. WFH is always an option here – my job is 85% writing/emails and 15% in-person with clients.
Anon
Oh, and of course I have vacation days, but it’d be a wee bit strange just to be like, “Hey! Gonna be out the rest of the week!”
Anon
You’re sick. Mental health is health, and you’re not healthy right now. Go home sick and do not give it another thought. You do not owe anyone an explanation.
Vicky Austin
+1. Please be kind to yourself, I’m rooting for you.
Anon
Can you just call in sick for the rest of the week? They don’t have to know why or how you are sick. I’ve seen surprisingly bad reactions from those who you would not expect it from, and would not be inclined to share the details.
Anon
+1 Do not trust that those who are otherwise supportive will be supportive in this area. Mental health compassion is still a cr*pshoot, quite unfortunately. If you feel up to sharing later, that may be helpful for the overall state of acceptance, but do not feel obligated to take that on now. Take care of you, in the way that is best for you.
I hope you feel better soon. I promise it will get better. It’s just a matter of figuring out how and time. It’s so hard but it will get better.
Anon
Call in sick for now. You need to take the time to help yourself and you don’t need to share details with anyone. I hope it gets better soon (and it will!).
Anonymous
At my fortune 100 company it is not unusual for people to out on disability for weeks to months for “Stress”.You just need a doctor to agree.
HM
I work in HR and deal with FMLA on a daily basis. Not sure how your firm handles it, but mine uses a third party to manage FMLA. The employer gets almost no information on why the employee is taking the leave- only if it is intermittent, continuous, personal, or for a family member. We as the employer have no idea what the employee’s FMLA-qualifying issue is unless the employee chooses to disclose. If yours is handled similarly, you may not have to worry about the stigma around mental health at all and can keep the reason for your leave completely private. One watch out- depending on your firm’s policy, you may have to take PTO days to cover the absences regardless of whether they are FMLA-qualifying or not. I’d look into this before you decide whether or not you want to go the FMLA route.
Good luck
WFH if it helps. It might not help – husband’s job was 100% WFH and that added to his anxiety because he couldn’t get away from his job.
Your physician and their office can provide you an FMLA letter that states you need accomodations and mention what they are without going into detail for your diagnosis. Ask your shrink, psychiatrist, whomever is your medical provider in this or honestly any arena.
You may want to consider going to a mental health or behavioral health observational hospital – may be 9am to 3pm intensive therapy or possibly in-patient. THIS s*te was the place that I learned that “normal” people i.e. people I know, love, admire, have done and do this. Please consider it.
Good luck
lsw
Any ideas for where to look for blazers that meet the following conditions: color (not black, grey, white, or navy), long line (hit mid hip or longer), washable (preferred but not a dealbreaker). I have looked at Nordstrom, J Crew, and Banana and nothing fits the bill. I did get a corduroy blazer in pink from Boden but corduroy reads more casual.
Typical suit-length blazers just do not look that good on me and I absolutely love the way I look in longer cuts. They are just super hard to find. I would especially like olive or something in the dark red/purple family, but at this point, if it’s not a neutral I’m happy.
Anon
Did you try Talbots? You might need to get a small amount of tailoring if you want it fitted but they almost always offer colors.
I like long blazers too. I have a more casual side of business casual workplace so I pretty much only wear blazers for offsite meetings now, but I do have a couple of older knit blazers from Nic + Zoe that are shaped, long line, and came in colors. I’d search Poshmark, eBay etc. It’s currently available but only in black, navy and gray at the moment. Nic + Zoe riding blazer.
lsw
Thank you! I’ll check out both recommendations.
Anon
Seconding Talbots. So many colors <3
Also try J.Jill. They don't have typical blazers, but they have lots of easy-care toppers in longer lengths that are good for days when you don't need a full jacket. https://www.jjill.com/shop/womens-clothing/jackets-outerwear
pugsnbourbon
Y’all, I got a job offer yesterday and just sent through an email negotiating a higher starting salary and additional PTO.
This is the first time I’ve negotiated a job offer and I don’t really know what I’m asking you for, but good vibes would be appreciated!
Lana Del Raygun
Good for you! Fingers crossed!
Cookbooks
Sending good vibes your way! I hope it works out in your favor!
pugsnbourbon
… they agreed to everything I asked for!
Now I’m having a panic attack about telling my boss but also looking forward to champagne after work.
Lana Del Raygun
Congratulations!!!! :D
Jules
Woo-hoo!
Anon
If it wouldn’t out you, I would LOVE to see the language you used in your email. This is something I know is coming soon for me and it would be so helpful!
pugsnboubon
I googled “how to negotiate a job offer” but ultimately I reiterated my experience and skills as they benefit the company in this position. Kept it simple and to the point. The big part for me was just believing that I deserve to be pay what I’m worth, and that I owed it to myself to ask for it.
Anon
AND CONGRATS!! OMG I hit submit too quickly. So exciting. Well done!!
another internet stranger
Congratulations!! :)
anon
I’m feeling really down right now. This morning my direct report and I spent two hours giving a personalized presentation to a 40-something man who is doing a professional internship in our office. I’m 38, the director of my team, and took the lead on the presentation. Direct report, also a man, gave part of the presentation, but it was pretty freaking clear that I was the one leading and report was addressing a specific area. Report did a great job and I’ll be the first to admit that he has one of those magnetic personalities that I just … don’t have. I’m friendly, but I don’t ooze charisma.
The guy we were presenting to barely looked me in the eye and directed all questions to my report. It felt so, so sh*tty. This has happened a lot since my report joined the team a year ago. My report is great at his job, but he’s a guy five years younger than me. AND HE REPORTS TO ME. Yet people assume he’s the team lead for some reason, not me, even when I’m the one making introductions and leading the meeting or presentation. I’m the one wearing the suit, not him. I’ve been told I have good “presence” in presentations, so there is no obvious reason this should be happening except that I’m a woman.
I’m infuriated at the first guy and jealous of my report for just being a dude. And I don’t know what to do with these feelings. Just, why?!
Anon
It’s definitely sexist (no doubt about that), but you also admit you lack charisma. That’s something you can develop and shouldn’t be viewed as a static trait that you either have or don’t have. Why not check out some books? This blog post was helpful to me as well: http://www.thehappytalent.com/blog/these-specific-behaviors-will-make-you-more-charismatic-starting-right-now
oil in houston
nothing helpful to tell you, just big hugs!
Sam
Can you separate yourself out from your report a little bit? As in, do you never give talks without your report participating? Do you do 1-1s with your new professional intern? I almost feel like you need to come out of the shadow of his personality, even though *you* are the manager not him. His personality seems like it dwarfs yours a bit, so in addition to the building charisma mentioned above (I would add – be more light hearted, make some jokes and ease up a bit if you can) you may also need some separation.
anon
The intern situation is a one-off; it’s not something my organization does regularly. What’s troubling is that it’s happened in multiple contexts, both presentations and less formal things. I don’t get it. I ask questions, act interested in others, smile and am friendly. I joke around when it’s appropriate and doesn’t feel forced. I just don’t have that naturally outgoing, gregarious personality, and I’m not sure that’s totally in my power to change. Like at some point, if you don’t have that personality, you just look like you’re being inauthentic and are trying too hard.
I could’ve done the presentation by myself, easily, but I was trying to give my report a chance to demonstrate his expertise. And he did, and it’s biting me in the a**.
Anonymous
This happens to me to. Why do the men always automatically get the credit!
anon
Don’t let him get the credit – make it clear from the start that you are the boss, that you asked direct report to give the presentation because he has worked so hard on it and has done a great job – you do the kick off and the closing/wrap up of the meeting – position yourself at a higher level. Start acting like the boss, right now and change how people perceive you!
anon
But I did all of that — that’s my point! There should’ve been no question at all who was in charge.
Anonymous
This happens to me too. Once, I had an oral argument in our state supreme court. It was my case from the very start, I filed all the briefs and argued the case myself. This was actually the second time this case was up in front of the Supreme Court because I had won the first appeal. Anyway, I had another attorney sitting with me at counsel table, but he was not involved in the case except to help me moot the case and practice my argument. Some (male) reporter from a local newspaper approached us after the argument as we were leaving the courthouse and only spoke to my male colleague. I would try and answer the questions and the reporter totally ignored me, sort of pushed past me, and kept asking my colleague the questions. He at first tried to be polite and give sort of generalized answers, but eventually told the reporter that it was my case and if he needed to know something about it to ask me.
Anon
Thank you, RBG?
Anon
I am a direct report (woman) and my boss is a man. People ask me the questions because they feel more comfortable with me as the lower level person. This might be a lack of confidence problem on their end, not yours. I would not assume that is because you are female. It is very clear that my boss is in charge and higher level than me. They do not want to “bother” him with all their questions, so they come to me. Maybe it’s similar for you. Just another perspective to keep in mind. You may want to make it clear that you are open to questions.
gym mom
For anyone following the dumpster fire that is USA Gymnastics:
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/2019/02/19/usag-names-li-li-leung-new-ceo/2912244002/
Sounds too good to be true, but I hope it is. I wish her every success.
Anonymous
Etiquette question: Had a long standing dinner planned with friend A. Woke you with a cold that morning and went to the dinner anyway. Told friend I had a cold, stayed on opposite side of the table from friend, and never touched friend or breathed in her direction. Coughed once or twice into my inner elbow. Later heard from friend B that friend A was angry at me for showing up with a cold. I felt too guilty to cancel at last minute. Which is more rude, to show up with a cold or cancel at the last minute? Do I owe friend A an apology or should I just let it go. Friend A did not catch my cold. Also am I strange for agonizing over this? Thanks.
Anonymous
When this happens to me, I usually call my friend and let them decide if they still want to get together. But at this point, especially since your friend did not catch your cold, I think you should just let it go. I don’t think you are strange for agonizing over it, but do think you should stop and let it go. :)
Anon
Yup, this is how I handle it, especially with my friends who have kids and have to deal with possibly passing the sickness to the rest of their household. I tend to get one of two reactions: (A) no, do not come, do not get within 10 miles of me if you’ve sneezed in the past month, or (B) of course, let’s still do dinner, someone in my house is always sick anyways, just don’t cough on me or share a glass. I tend to get along better long term with group B. Also, ironically, it’s the SAH parents who tend to be part of group A.
Let this one go. Roll your eyes that she’s being mildly high maintenance (unless she or one of her kids or a spouse or whatnot has a compromised immune system) and move forward.
Anon
“Also, ironically, it’s the SAH parents who tend to be part of group A.”
I don’t think that’s ironic at all – daycare kids get sick all of the time, so working parents don’t generally care about exposure to one more illness. But if your kids rarely/never get sick than you’re much more concerned about bringing a bug home. So it makes a lot of sense to me.
Anon
I work full time and would politely decline if I knew someone was sick- my daughter has very severe reactions to even minor sicknesses (as in , we end up in the er with me scarred she’s dying). When I’m sick, I always tell people and let them make the decision.
LittleBigLaw
Let it go and next time send a text early in the day that says you are a little under the weather but looking forward to dinner if she’s still up for it.
Anonymous
First off it’s not “rude” to cancel at the last minute because you are sick. That part of the comment really jumped out at me. It would’ve been perfectly fine if you’d stayed home!
Personally I would not want to go out to dinner with someone who’s just coming down with something – that’s when you’re most contagious right? I apparently have the weakest immune system ever, despite my efforts, and I catch like every cold I’m exposed to. I’d be pretty annoyed if someone came to a one on one dinner with me and didn’t tell me ahead of time that they were sick. That said, in your shoes I would not apologize. You heard about the annoyance from Friend B not Friend A – so I don’t think there’s a gracious way to say you know that Friend A was upset and apologize for it. Just let it go and note for the future to not hang out with her if you even have the sniffles.
Anon
It’s not that serious. Friend A will get over it, they didn’t even get sick. Next time, just shoot a text heads up “hey I think I’m catching a mild cold, it doesn’t seem that serious, but do you still want to go or reschedule”. Chalk this up to a lesson learned: Friend A is sensitive to sniffles, don’t go around them. Try not to think about this too hard, normal adults will not dwell on it (though who knows Friend A might, you know them we don’t).
Anon
I wouldn’t want to go out with someone who’s sick but your friend sounds like a jerk.
Anon
I think it was kind of rude to go to dinner with your friend when you had a cold without telling her BUT Friend A is way more rude to complain to someone else about it behind your back.
Anonymous
Workout pants/leggings question: what’s my solution if pants in a size up are opaque on the butt but loose on the waist (size 8 lululemon or size M VS knockout leggings, size M Target Champion, or size M Old Navy), and a size down doesn’t slip on the waist but may/may not be fully opaque in the butt? Are there brands that work better for this problem than others?
It’s a huge PITA to yank my pants up several times per workout but I really don’t want to flash people in the gym as I squat and bend. I’m not even massively pear shaped, I have exactly a 30 inch waist and 39 inch hips. Most of my existing pants have extra crotch fabric with any movement and will ride down from high rise to low rise.
Anon
Gap “blackout” leggings. Totally opaque and good quality.
Anonymous
Agree with this – I love the Gap blackout leggings. I think most of them also have a drawstring waist so you can really cinch the waist tight and keep them in place.
Anonymous
Athleta contender tights. They are opaque, and even though they are leggings, they have an elastic in the waistband which you can tie to make the waistband tighter.
Anon
I have similar proportions and have the same problem with some brands. (27 in waist and 38 inch hips). I have found that Zella (Live In, do not buy the “Lite” ones) and Athleta work for me.