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Updated: Dec 21, 2020 242 Comments · by

Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Saffa Faux Wrap Top

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

Diane von Furstenberg has been known for years for her iconic wrap styling, and while she doesn't seem to have as many sleek dresses as she did in the old days, I love that the brand has adapted it for a top.

I think this one is an unusual color — I don't usually like orange things, but this is bright and fun. I think it's a very sleek look — very fashionable and trendy, but classic as well.

It's $298 at Nordstrom with sizes S–XL in stock. (It's also available in ivory at Neiman Marcus.) Saffa Faux Wrap Top

Two lower-priced options include this top from Ted Baker and this one from Barneys' house brand; a plus-size alternative is at Eloquii.

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. Tasneem Karim

    Need suggestions for a script. I would like to reach out to a local tech startup that has not currently advertised a need for an in house attorney (they already have a general counsel), and communicate my interest in the company. Any suggestions on what to say?

    • Worry about yourself

      I don’t know if I can write a whole script, but I do have some suggestions on what to include. I would mention, if it’s true, that you’re looking to go in-house in the tech industry. You should also mention what exactly caught your eye about that particular company. I might also say “I realize you don’t currently have any attorney positions posted, so I realize this might be a long shot, but I figured I’d reach out in case there was an opening in the works.”

      I’m much more willing to respond to something like that, even if the answer is “no, sorry, I don’t believe we are right now, but I’ll let you know if I hear anything,” than the spammy messages that say “Hello I am looking for a job and your company looks very interesting.” Yeah, pretty much every company can “look interesting” when you’re job hunting and they’re hiring.

      • Equestrian attorney

        +1. Also, throw in a sentence or two about why your experience is relevant to this industry (but please don’t write a page-long statement on this – I sometimes get insanely long emails from random candidates and never read them). If you don’t know anyone there and their legal team right now is only the GC, I would suggest reaching out to the GC directly on LinkedIn if you can. Even if he’s not thinking of hiring, he might be willing to meet you for coffee or something.

    • Anonymous

      I’d reach out to the GC and invite him/her to lunch or coffee. Express your desire for a similar career path, ask for advice, etc. Talk yourself up, too, and at the end express your desire to work at the company. GC will give you a good idea of if it will be a possibility down the road and will also be connected with similar GCs and can provide recommendations of who else to meet with/who might be looking.

  2. Dallas questions

    Can any r e t t e s provide Dalas info/recommendations? It’s a work trip and I probably won’t have much time to get out except some evenings and early mornings. I’ll be at the Omni hotel downtown.
    From the airport to hotel, is cab/uber/Lyft better? Is it generally a uber town or a lyft town? I don’t drive.

    Is it generally a safe city, ex. for being outside downtown in the evening alone?

    Any interesting coffee shop or other morning walk destination near the Omni?

    If you had only the evenings free, where would you go? Ideally walkable from the omni.

    Also, I would like to pick something small for my teen daughter, and perhaps my husband, ideally with some Dallas/Texas association but not the typical stuff from a souvenir shop. Any recommendations where to go and what to get?

    TIA!

    • Anon

      Hi there, I was just in Dallas last week for business. I had no trouble calling a Lyft to/from the Love Field airport and downtown — I never waited more than 5 minutes. My impression was that Dallas wasn’t really a “walking” city — even for short distances within the downtown area (e.g. 10-15 min walk), it was customary to get a ride share/cab. I enjoyed the Ascension Coffee on Elm St for breakfast and coffee. The Dallas Museum of Art is open late on Thursdays and admission is free, and if you have the opportunity to visit the Nasher Sculpture Center, the garden is really beautiful. Hamilton is also touring in Dallas until early May.

    • Anon

      I’ve spent a lot of time in that specific area for work. For mornings/lunches, The Commissary is an excellent coffee shop or lunch spot and is probably 3-4 blocks from the Omni. I also love the restaurants in the Joule hotel (and their spa if you have time for that)– Americano and CBD. They also have a coffee shop in the hotel that has fantastic iced coffee (it’s called The Weekend). Those are all close to you. The Omni is actually in kind of a weird spot, and I would not feel comfortable walking alone to it at night. During the morning and day is fine, but do be alert.

      For evenings if you want to get out of downtown, Deep Ellum will be very close to you– it’s more of a hipster vibe. Also Knox Henderson isn’t too far away and has a lot of good restaurants (Victor Tango and Wayward Son are really good).

        • Anon at 10:03

          Yes!!! I think they’re only open for lunch. Emporium Pies is also right there and is A MUST.

    • baseballfan

      I live in Dallas. Either Uber or Lyft will work well from the airport and costs less than a taxi. The Omni is a nice hotel with its own restaurants, but I agree it’s in a strange part of town and not really walkable – Dallas in general is not much of a walking city. But there is plenty nearby that is an inexpensive Uber/Lyft ride away.

      I agree with the suggestion of Deep Ellum, and also Uptown/West Village has some good options for eats and drinks. Also Bishop Arts District.

      If you have time, a visit to the Sixth Floor Museum (re: JFK assassination) is something nearby that I would highly recommend and they also have a gift shop which might satisfy your request for something local for your family.

    • Anon

      The area around the convention center/Omni isn’t great. I was there for a convention last fall and tried to avoid walking alone after dark. My favorite meal was at Enchilada’s on Elm Street – great Tex-Mex. I thought Ellen’s was overrated, but a lot of people I was with liked it. The restaurants in the Omni are good, if typically overpriced. The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza is right near there, and is very interesting.
      I had no problems doing Lyft to/from DFW.

    • Anon.

      Former Dallas local here:

      Uber/Lyft from either DFW or Love are your best option. I watched a guy download the Uber app, sign up for the first time and get a car, all before a cab showed up for the cab line at DFW.

      Agreed with the above posters that Dallas is not really a walking city, particularly the area by the Omni. But Ubers are easy to come by. From the Omni you are within walking distance to the Grassy Knoll if you want some Kennedy history. Highly recommend Deep Ellum, Knox Henderson or Lower Greenville for dinner and window shopping – all are within a 5-10 minute Uber ride of the Omni with Deep Ellum being closest. There’s a fun shop on Greenville called Bullzerk with t-shirts and other Dallas-themed novelties if you are souvenir shopping – but really any of those three neighborhoods will have fun little shops for browsing.

    • Jane

      I live in Dallas and work near the Omni. I would not walk around after dark in this part of the city. If I had a free evening, I would go to the happy hour at 560 at Reunion Tower; dinner is spendy, but the happy hour is good and the view cannot be beat for Dallas.

    • Dallas questions

      Thank you all for the replies – they were really helpful! I love this community.

    • Native Dallasite

      Native Dallasite here…We are definitely an Uber city. Agree with others not to walk in that area at night. It would be cool to visit Mirador restaurant at Forty Five Ten (very cool boutique downtown). Also, if you are willing to Uber a bit further, Highland Park Village is the spot for shopping and dining so might be worth a visit- visit Mi Cocina for some good, native Tex Mex, and browse the high end stores there. Souvenirs are kind of tough unless you are looking for something Dallas Cowboys related or maybe special barbeque sauce. Other food favorites- Javier’s, Bistro 31, the Mansion (for drinks- famous hotel here), and Neighborhood Services. The Nasher Sculpture Center is located downtown (still have to Uber though), but would be good to visit.

  3. Ellen

    Kat, I LOVE Diane Von Furstenberg, and she has done alot for NYC — in particular for the West Side, Dad says, which I may wind up living. So I say support Diane by buying this wrap top! YAY Diane! I noticed the other day that Al Roker on TV has lost alot of weight, and is almost skinny! If he can do it, so can all of us in the HIVE! How in the world did HE do it? If anyone can share insight, I am all ears. I am planning to take a few days off this week and next, and will go with Myrna up to Rosa’s house for Passover. The kids are always so cute, and Grandma Leyeh and Trudy spoil them. Dad did my taxes again, but I have no idea if I paid more or less under Trump. He said he was “hosed”. Dad also warned Rosa to keep their dog penned up b/c he wound up stepping in poopie up there. We thought it was VERY funny, tho it was stinky! Anyway, I wish all the best to the HIVE for Easter and Passover, and I hope to have some more time to contribute to the discussion then I have been in the last few weeks.

  4. anon

    Are there any (current or past) plaintiff side lawyers here? If you don’t mind sharing, which practice area(s)? Can you describe your favorite/least favorite aspects of the practice? If you no longer practice, what factors led to your decision to leave it behind? If you currently practice, would you recommend your younger self choose this career path again, knowing what you do now? Thanks in advance.

    PS – since this is about personal decisions and experiences and most of us value our privacy, could we please not make this a “thread jack of interest” so people feel safe responding? please?

    • Anon

      Employee-side plaintiff’s work. Loved: going after “the man.” Hated that most of my cases were on contingency … if you don’t win, it’s a huge sunk investment. Also, people never get what they really want … money won’t replace the loss of identity from an unanticipated or unexpected job loss, or the humiliation / trauma that can accompany, e.g., harassment cases.

      You fight about stuff with opposing counsel, A LOT. About dumb stuff. And, you lose more often than you win. It can be discouraging, but rewarding every once in a while that *mostly* makes up for all of the frustration about losing a great case because of lack of resources to pursue the case as aggressively as you would like.

      If I were independently wealthy I would chose this area of practice again, and focus more specifically on lower ‘value’ cases involving lower paid employees, who tend to suffer pretty egregious workplace violations but many attorneys won’t take their case because likely recovery is too low to make it worth it.

      .

      • Anonymous

        Defense side here, but I think the fighting with opposing counsel about dumb stuff a lot is just endemic in the practice of law.

    • Anon

      What does not making it a threadjack of interest have anything to do with “feeling safe” responding to a professional question on an anonymous blog? I’m confused.

    • Plaintiff's Attorney

      Plaintiff’s personal injury attorney here. I spent my first nine years as a civil defense attorney, mostly medical malpractice and commercial litigation. I left to go out on my own when I had a child and realized I hated traveling so much. I started out as a general practice, but it quickly became apparent to me that I liked doing plaintiff’s work. Six years in and I love it. Much of it is because I work for myself, but I get a lot of satisfaction from helping the little guy and righting some pretty serious wrongs. I choose cases in terms of my ability to help and whether I find them interesting. My clients are by and large lovely people. I work less and I make more. I have the opportunity to take pro bono and low bono cases. The downsides are pretty minimal for me. Since I’m a solo practitioner (with paralegal) sometimes scheduling can be difficult and sometimes other attorneys can be jerks (but I also found that to be true when I did defense work). Also, with mostly contingent fee billing, I have to be careful to keep enough of a war chest to fund my cases and I because I don’t get a set salary, I’ve learned not to live so high on the hog when a big case hits so I don’t have to suffer when I’ve not had a settlement or verdict for awhile.

    • Anon

      I am and I love it. I love working with “real” people. I have a social work background which helps. Not all attorneys have the soft skills needed to work with the general public. It’s a totally different approach than you would use talking to big wig business clients. I do both actually. I do a mix of general civil litigation, including a little family law. My advice is to at least have one other hourly practice area you can use to keep the lights on while doing the contingent fee work. For me, that’s family and business lit. One of the downsides has already been addressed but figuring out how much to “gamble” resource wise on cases. For a med mal case, I might have the option to spend anywhere from $10k to $100k on experts and I have to figure out how much to put in per case.

      I’m with a small firm 5-10 attorneys depending on who has retired / who has joined at any given point in time. I mostly manage my own cases and work load. I get a ton of autonomy but I still have people to fall back on if I have an emergency or a scheduling conflict. I’m in a cordial bar so major stupid fights are few and far between.

      One other downside, in my state at least, is for common car accident cases, insurance adjustors have been tightening up the belts and not offering what we consider fair settlements without suit. We are putting far more cases into suit than we did in the past. This isn’t because we are being greedy. These are just on their face unreasonable. Say someone has $10k in medical bills. They are arguing the doctor over billed and the bill should really be $6k and they will pay $2k for pain and suffering. That’s impossible when you have to pay back health insurance what it paid, pay your out of pocket expenses like getting medical records, pay your attorney 1/3rd and have something left for the client.

    • Securities litigator

      I do securities class action litigation and love it – big cases, sophisticated opposing counsel (so you still fight but at least the briefs are well-written), and provide a very direct benefit to great clients (they lost money, you get money back). Least favorite thing is that everything is contingency so the partners are often stressed about landing the next big case and any tiny mistake or disagreement over a judgment call feels like a huge deal (but maybe that’s all lawyers???).

  5. Anon

    My boyfriend got him CCL this month and started to carry a pistol everywhere he goes unless its a gun-free zone. He started putting money and training on the gun. He even put that thing under his pillow when he sleeps. That really worries me since I live with him. I don’t know why he started carrying. He is former military, US Army special operations.

    But is there anyway I can lecture him about guns being evil and dangerous so that he really should get rid of that thing?

    • AIMS

      I don’t think lectures work, and may have the opposite effect. I think you can certainly draw the line at having the gun in bed. That affects you in a very direct way and you can 100 percent say that you don’t want to sleep with a gun in your bed. I would also try to broach the subject in other ways. Ask him what prompted this.

      Finally, whatever you decide, if you want to have kids, address this now in a way that you’d be comfortable with in the future. This situation will not get easier with a kid in the house.

        • AnonVeteran

          You’re absolutely right to be concerned. Even in the armed forces (or especially in the armed forces), weapons safety is a beyond big deal. No one, but no one is going to bed with their sidearm under their pillow.
          There are a lot of red flags here. Did you know him when he was still in the Army?

        • Anon

          In this situation, I don’t think there should be a “might be possible”. He sleeps in a gunless bed or without you, full stop. That is so irresponsible and dangerous. And you know it’s loaded, why else would a gun be under the pillow instead of a quick access safe or under the bedside table? Do you really want to find out there is a problem with the safety when it blows you or your boyfriend’s head off?

          There is something weird going on here. There are just so many ways to have gun safety in your own home. He is clearly not exercising that. Also if this obsession is new, I know people don’t advocate for personal intrusions, but I’d check on his social media to see if he’s being radicalized – it’s happening more and more these days especially among young white males.

      • Lana Del Raygun

        His specops training is not inherently comforting though, because a civilian home is such a different environment from a combat zone, with vastly different risks to balance, and the specifics of how to keep a gun safely are correspondingly different — I really worry that he’s approaching this like he’s still downrange.

    • Lana Del Raygun

      There is no way you can lecture him about guns being evil and dangerous that will make him get rid of it (as a general rule, the answer to “how can I make my significant other ___?” is “you can’t”), but you are absolutely allowed to draw whatever boundaries you want about having guns around YOU. You can tell him you don’t feel comfortable with a gun in your house/apartment, or under the pillow in your shared bed (what on earth, boyfriend????), or whatever line you want to draw … but he’s allowed to say he definitely wants a gun under his pillow (although to be clear, this is incredibly stupid), so the only solution may be to live apart and/or break up. I, personally, would absolutely move out/kick him out over this.

      Before you have that conversation, though, I would recommend having a more open-ended “why do you feel you need this, what prompted this, what are your plans for gun safety” kind of conversation, if only because you might prefer to nudge him towards a more reasonable approach to safety and stay in the relationship. But I also think you should keep an ear out for indications that he might be depressed or having suicidal ideations — veterans are at particularly high risk for suicide, and having a firearm in the home is a major risk factor, especially for men. If he is seeing a therapist or counselor, I would write to them and let them know that this is going on (they can’t write back because of HIPAA but they can take it under advisement).

      Also, having a firearm in the house is a risk factor for fatal domestic violence, so please only talk about this in a way that feels safe for you. I’m not saying your boyfriend is violent, but if your gut says he might be, please listen to it.

      • Work with Vets

        Yes, I was also concerned about depression/suicidal ideation, and also PTSD- it can manifest itself years later, and can manifest as hyper vigilance, fear, and irritability (among other symptoms). His way of coping with new or progressively worsening symptoms may be by carrying a gun, thinking that he can protect himself (and, maybe, you) if he just carries all the time. If you even think this may be an issue, be careful how you approach it- if you do. If you feel unsafe or like it’s a dealbreaker, handle that first. But if it’s not and you feel comfortable trying to figure out why this has come up, keep in mind the shame element of mental health in the military.

        Male veterans, especially special ops, almost certainly were conditioned to think “Don’t show weakness. Don’t let anyone know you’re suffering, or you’ll (lose your clearance, lose the respect of your team, get kicked out, etc).” That type of conditioning isn’t going to disappear when they get out of the military, and it can show up as “I’m not going to ask for help. I can protect myself. I don’t need anyone. No one needs to know.” So, even if you approach it from a place of care and wanting to know why he’s suddenly doing this, you may be met with a stone wall or anger. I wasn’t able to find anything in a few minutes of searching, but I’m sure there’s information available about how to talk to a partner who you think may have PTSD or another mental health condition as a result of or after military service.

    • Anon for this

      I grew up in a house with guns (LEO parent), and I am very comfortable shooting. However my spouse is very uncomfortable with guns, so I will never have one in our home. I think weapons are something that every person in a home should get to have veto power over, like getting a pet or something. I think it’s a red flag for your relationship that he did not discuss this with you and get your buy-in before obtaining his weapon. – this is just not the sort of thing a partner should do unilaterally.

    • shananana

      Your phrasing makes you a troll, but on the off off off chance you are just naive, you break up with him. That is the answer here. There is no convincing someone who feels safest sleeping with a gun and has the level of comfort and training a spec ops soldier does that guns are “evil and dangerous.”

    • Anonymous

      Pretty sure this is a troll. Guns are not ‘evil’ and even the stauchest gun control advocate recognizes that there is an appropriate role for guns re hunting and personal protection in specific circumstances. We do however know facts like a gun is much more likely to be used to kill someone in the house that someone breaking into the house.

      Someone that is ex-special forces and sleeps with a loaded gun under his pillow? I don’t believe it. They are trained and know better. He’s either dangerous or dumb AF. So if you aren’t a troll, dump him before he accidentially shots you in the head while you sleep.

      • anonshmanon

        The part about the pillow struck me as the weirdest, too. I mean, it’s like carrying your wand in the back pocket of your jeans!

        • Worry about yourself

          It’s not completely unheard of, unfortunately, but unless you have a really thick, firm memory foam pillow, that just sounds uncomfortable!

      • Belle Boyd

        This x 1,000,000. Nobody who is trained to handle firearms in the military, and certainly nobody who is ex-special ops will sleep with a loaded gun under a pillow. They know how to safely handle and store a firearm. They are drilled on these procedures from the moment they are handed a weapon in the service and that kind of training isn’t likely left by the wayside when they go back to civilian life.

        I’m calling BS.

        • FactCheck

          In Peachtree City, Georgia, a 2015 homicide where a police CHIEF – yes, CHIEF – had his loaded gun under his pillow and shot his wife in the head. He called it in.

          Also, in Little House on the Prairie, the rifle was kept over the door.

          Totally agree the syntax and divisive topic and even the question “how can I make him…” do not ring true for this s*te and seem very tr011-ish.

        • Anonymous

          Exactly. Bedside holsters are a thing. Gun under a pillow just gets someone shot in the head.

      • Work with Vets

        I thought this as well- but on the off chance it’s not, PTSD may be present. It can lead people to do things they wouldn’t otherwise do because of hyper vigilance or fear.

    • Irish Midori

      If he’s former military, I’m not sure you’re in any real position to be lecturing him about what guns are or are not. He’s pretty familiar with them. That would be womansplaining at its finest. You are, however, in a position to refuse to sleep in a bed with a gun.

      • Irish Midori

        Why does it matter what I think? Guns are controversial. There are decent people who have divergent views on them. If you believe, with all your heart, that guns are inherently evil and there can be no reasoned debate on the issue, and your boyfriend is a CCL-carrying ex-military guy, I think you have some un-resolvable relationship issues.

    • Worry about yourself

      I don’t think lecturing him about the evils of guns is gonna work. I would instead express your concerns about safety, and that you feel really uneasy with him sleeping with the gun under his pillow, when you would feel better seeing that thing being kept in a safe at night. I would also ask him why he felt the need to get a gun and keep it in the house, and hear him out, but also express any feelings you have about him bringing a gun into your shared home without talking to you first.

  6. Anon

    Is anyone familiar with the concept of high-quality leisure time? This came up for me when I read the NYT article about Cal Newport’s new book (Digital Minimalism) last week and then listened to a podcast and I’m finding some of his thoughts really interesting. I’ve found that I have this perception that “oh I work hard, I need a whole weekend to just sit on the couch and do nothing,” but then when that happens, I feel like a bored, distracted, lethargic, irritated slug who can’t step away from my screens. I’ve also noticed worsening concentration and short-term memory (that persists even when the screen is off). In contrast, when I get out and do something screen-free like skiing or hiking or horseback riding or even staying in and reading a good book (something that requires just a bit more effort to implement), I feel actually revitalized and happy. I put myself on the library waitlist for the book, but I’m interested to hear others’ thoughts in the meantime. I know that part of it is a screen time problem (I spend WAY too much time using all my different devices), but another part seems to be that my basic instinct to want to veg and watch reruns of shows I’ve seen a million times is actually not what is best for my physical and mental health. Has anyone else noticed this – that vegging out with mindless screen time is not actually the no-effort, fun me-time you thought it would be and that you do better with deeper, higher-quality leisure time like real hobbies, sports, knitting, or whatever? You’d think it might be more tiring, but as I’m learning, it isn’t.

    • CHL

      Cal Newport both attracts and repels me but I agree with the high-quality leisure. Screens just suck my energy and are not rejuvenating. I can enjoy a good show that I like, but not all day. Laura Vanderkam talks about this topic as well.

      • anon

        Yes, in particular Laura Vanderkam’s “Off the Clock” and her short e-book thing about weekends have good stuff on this.

        • Anon

          Thanks for the tip! I’m the OP and will check her books out as well. I feel really excited and motivated to finally get to the bottom of why my “relaxing” weekends have left me feeling more lethargic.

    • Fringe

      Yeah, this is a constant struggle. I think a lot of it is because our brains are constantly exposed to these devices for work/play/errands/everything, so there isn’t any cue for our brain to go “oh, we’re resting now.” And because they’re so ingrained in our everyday routine, it’s easy to just accidentally into whiling away the hours in front of a screen (for me it’s a phone, others it’s tv) without making the conscious choice to rest. My boyfriend is always on me about making a conscious choice to take a break, regardless of whether that break is reading, journaling, or playing candy crush for five hours. Otherwise it feels like I’m just passing the time until I can eventually rest, instead of just…resting. On top of that, sunlight and outdoors time is really good for mental health (imo and experience), so it makes sense you’d feel better doing that compared to sitting indoors watching TV.

      tl;dr: 21st century rest is weird and counter-intuitive.

    • busybee

      I haven’t heard that term but it makes a lot of sense to me. I am happiest when I gain a sense of satisfaction from doing something, whether it’s work or leisure. I feel accomplished when I’ve worked in my garden, finished a book, gone for a run, or mastered a piece on the piano. All of these activities are hobbies, but give me a sense of satisfaction that mindless phone scrolling just doesn’t provide.

    • Anonymous

      One hundred percent. I need physical activity on weekends, and time with books, and time with community. Every now and then I spend a weekend on the couch with a blanket, a phone, and a remote but very rarely.

    • nutella

      Yes, I have noticed that an awesome weekend for me that actually re-energizes me for the week has a dash of errands (getting things done!), some athletics, some hobbies, and yes a little veg-out time. Even better if there is some time outside. Those are the days that I feel like I really appreciate the time off work. To me, those days are awesome because they are practicing mindfulness. And I feel a sense of play again like I did when I was a teenager. Sure, I have some chores to do but then I feel great getting them done! If I get those done early, then I have the whole day to… play tennis followed by lunch outside. Then I might bake or look at furniture (we are decorating our house and both of these are hobbies/interests of mine). Then maybe we veg out a bit at home watching sports while taste-testing what I baked before we go out to dinner, etc. Full day! … As you may notice, we don’t have kids yet, but that was part of the wake-up call. “We don’t even have kids, we shouldn’t be so burnt out on the weekends!”

      I’d been trying to get my husband into meditating or just trying to practice mindfulness and it never clicked for him as something he was interested in. Then he was at the airport and picked up that book and has been raving about it ever since. Over the weekend he was just commenting on how some lawn work fulfilled that “high-quality leisure time” for him. He is someone who likes to do things with his hands and feel accomplished. I bought him a shoe shine kit, too, that he has really enjoyed using (he wears dress shoes for work everyday) – and sometimes I do, too.

    • anon

      I haven’t heard the term, but I definitely agree with the concept. The best weekends for me combine some errands/chores, time by myself, time with extended family or friends, time with just my husband and kid, time outside, and time pursuing my hobbies. It’s not necessarily absence of screens because I read on my phone or kindle, but the conscious choice to do something I enjoy that challenges my brain just enough.

    • Equestrian attorney

      I had never heard of this but struggle with the same feeling. Sometimes I feel like my weekends are too busy and I need to just relax and watch TV all weekend, but if I do that, I get to Sunday evening feeling depressed and irritable, not energized and happy. I need a balance of chilling and doing stuff (seeing friends, exercise, even cooking and cleaning). I’m also trying to read more and watch less TV.

    • Falstaff

      I haven’t heard of Cal Newport, but the book Break Up with Your Phone talks about this and has a plan for reducing phone usage that was really life-changing for me.

  7. Burnout Help?

    How do you cope with feelings of being burnt out 5 – 10 years into your career? I thought it was just me/fellow people in Biglaw, but when I reach out to other friends, most of them all seem to be going through some form of this — in Biglaw, PR firms, finance, international humanitarian aid, government, wherever — and are becoming super jaded and unfulfilled, to the extent that some no longer find their career important and have quit altogether (without another career / job lined up). Is this a normal feeling? A result of having unrealistic expectations about the fulfillment that we expect to get from our jobs? A sign that something needs to change?

    It’s all the more surprising because all these friends were all very driven, high-achieving types as kids — they studied 7 am – 11 pm every day throughout high school including most school holidays (okay, typing that made me realize the burnout is long overdue), spent a lot of time trying to become the “perfect” student/daughter and generally caring what other people think, got into specialized high schools / “good” colleges / law schools, etc. and thought it was the end of the world if one does not ace a test. Not saying there is value in that exercise in itself (a lot of the effort was probably unnecessarily anxiety-inducing) and admittedly a lot of it was fueled by the school teachers / parents in formative years that encouraged the insecure mindset of “not being xxx enough” to “drive” us to have better grades.

    But still, the shift in mindset re career is such a huge one and yet so universal that we have trouble wrapping our heads around it. I’m reading Dr Brene Brown’s books on shame and vulnerability and it hits the nails on the head. Half of us are also in therapy due to various quarter-life crises. Thoughts? Advice?

    • Irish Midori

      For me, I think it’s a lack of a clear “next step” or goal. In school, there was always a grade, the next exam, the next level of education to strive for. There was a score to the game, so there was a way to “win.” In a career, it’s a slog. There’s no “next grade.” There’s no next big thing inherently, unless we’re ladder-climbing with clear rungs. It’s just a rat race without any cheese. High achievers are often competitive types. When there’s no score, the game just isn’t compelling in the same way.

      I just got a book called Free to Focus that kind of helped me clarify this problem in myself. Working harder and longer leads to burnout. It may help to step back and think about our goals in life, and see if what we’re doing is getting us any closer to them.

    • anon

      I managed to stave it off longer than many, but I started feeling major burnout 15 years into my career (not in law). It’s been two years since then and things are better, but I constantly feel like I’m one big project away from returning to the burnout zone again. I think our generation was given some very unrealistic, unattainable messages about the role of work in our lives. Post-burnout, I no longer believe that careers are meant to give us transcendent, personal fulfillment. I also don’t believe that putting in the longest hours and constantly striving is something to admire. This message hit really close to home when our very charismatic, beloved CEO died of cancer. He worked up until 3 days before his death. Then he died, and the work kept happening. We were grieving, for sure, but time didn’t stop and neither did the work, not even for someone’s death. It was depressing as he11 to realize and honestly messed me up for a long time.

      The causes for burnout tend to be different for everyone and it’s not always about the number of hours worked. It’s worth taking the time to soul search and figure out what your personal triggers are so you can work around them and develop better coping strategies. If you’re a podcast listener, HBR’s Women at Work addressed this topic in yesterday’s episode.

      Personally, I’m doing a lot of work to figure out how I can remain “satisfied enough” in a profession that’s as dysfunctional as any other. (And investing more energy into my personal life than my career.) I’ve also had to figure out what it means to me to have a good work ethic without wearing myself down.

      • Anonymous

        This. Not a death at my company but a couple of senior retirements where I first thought ‘how will we replace them’ but it just continued and 5 years later half the people I work with barely remember the people who dedicated themselves to their job for their whole life. My job is something I enjoy sometimes but mostly it allows me to feed and clothe myself and my family and pays for fun life experiences.

        I don’t want to be a SAHM who doesn’t have a life outside of the house but I also don’t want to be a worker who doesn’t have a life outside of the office. Figuring out that balance is hard.

        • anne-on

          +1. For better or worse having a kid (and a difficult pregnancy) really drove home that work is not life, and I needed to set and enforce better boundaries. Granted, work/life balance tends to ebb and flow (some weeks, lots of late nights, other weeks, I’ll duck out early for school things and hit the gym 4x/week) but if you don’t set those boundaries nobody else magically will for you. Plus – 15+ years into my career I have seniority and experience enough to know when I can push back better than I did before and how to carve those breaks and vacations into my time. Good luck – this is HARD and not something we ever talked about/were taught in college ;)

        • AnonInHouse

          +2. Entering the job market in 2007, then seeing law firms lay off/force out partners, of counsel and associates who had been worked night and day for a decade or more was incredibly formative of my world view. I learned (rightly or wrongly) that although my individual managers, coworkers, etc. might value my work, my Employer only values me as long as my work can’t be done cheaper some other way. I work hard and get good reviews and raises, but I don’t go above and beyond the way I always did throughout school. Interestingly, my husband was one of those associates that was laid off, and his world view didn’t change — he’s an incredibly hard worker, shows no signs of burnout (20 yrs after college), and always, always goes above and beyond. I admire his attitude and work ethic, but can’t replicate it.

      • Anon (OP)

        Thank you for the recommendation and perspectives — And yes, it definitely did not help that a number of 30-somethings (who are not much older than I am, and who have practiced for less than 10 years) at my firm came down with cancer / were on the verge of having a stroke / have killed themselves in the past year.

      • Adina

        During my first week at my post-college job at a big, recognizable company the retiring CEO came to give all the new hires a talk. I’m sure he said a lot of inspiring things but all I remember is him talking about how his older (just finished college) daughter had no relationship with him and didn’t really get along with him because he had been at work 24/7 her whole life, both in terms of time and his attention. He said that now that he retired he was going to try and build a relationship with his younger (still in high school) daughter but then made a remark about how annoying it would be to actually go to her soccer games. I didn’t have much faith that that relationship would be rebuilt either. Anyways, all this made a big impression on me, here was this ‘successful’ man giving a talk and all I could think was how badly I felt for his daughters and his lack of quality family life.

    • Anon

      I went to a really intense undergraduate program and the burnout you’re describing happened to me there. I feel so ahead of the curve :) Kidding, kind of, but it is kind of comforting to see many of peers leaning out/opting out of the fast-paced career thing.

    • Anonymous

      Reread your second paragraphs several times. It sounds inevitable that people like that would face a necessary transition at some point in adult life when they have to grapple with the fact that they don’t have never-ending energy, that the world isn’t set up like school is with constant achievements and rewards, that much of life is everyday routine. Where they have the difficult discovery that satisfaction and joy aren’t packed into our circumstances, but have to come from …? And that much of life comes with setbacks, suffering, boredom, sorrow, even failures. High achieving people get cancer. They have special-needs kids and a disappointing spouse and a paucity of brass rings to grab. And then they adjust and wrestle with their emotions and thoughts, and become a different person. Or they become increasingly angry, anxious, dissatisfied, and driven.

    • Anon

      I think around the 8-12 year mark (for me) was particularly frustrating because at that level of experience I was expected to do high level, senior work and often serve as the point person for some pretty important projects, but I was not viewed as “senior” in terms of promotions or advancement. My department was happy to hand me difficult tasks but enjoyed the fact that I was paid as a junior person and did not have a voice on the leadership team.

      Ultimately, I left and found my voice at another firm. It’s easier to avoid burnout when you are respected and paid well. For whatever reason, companies are more willing to do this for laterals than people coming up through the ranks.

      • Anonny

        Ohh, I feel this so hard as an in-house attorney. Expected to do senior work but paid as a junior person.

      • Anon

        This is where I’m at. I work independently and serve as the “go to” person for X/Y/Z, but there’s really no way to advance in my field unless I start managing colleagues, and management isn’t what I want. I feel stagnant and stuck.

      • anne-on

        +1 SOOO hard. I stayed at the firm I ‘grew up in’ through my pregnancy and child’s younger years due to a flexible team/work arrangement/seniority but it was amply demonstrated that they were simply never going to pay me what they would someone who came in from outside. Why firms take this approach (and lose their good, home grown talent) is beyond me but a lot of them seem to.

    • CPA Lady

      I mean, with time comes additional perspective. I’m not sure I’d say I’m “burned out”, but I am working on having an identity outside of work. Work and my career are important to me, but I don’t want to live to work and I don’t want to miss all the wonderful things in life by just being attached to my computer all the time. I’ve recently started putting more time and effort into new and old hobbies and it’s giving me a lot more happiness than doing another tax return ever has (not that tax returns and spreadsheets aren’t thrilling!!!!). I also want to spend time with my husband and daughter and other people who mean a lot to me. I had a good friend die suddenly a couple months ago of a freak illness. She was 31. It just really drove home to me that we really don’t know how much time we have.

      I also think I realized recently that a lot of the ideas I grew up with about what it’s like to have a high powered career are complete nonsense. I intellectually knew this before now, but I finally have the lived experience to back it up. Seeing the day to day life of high powered folks in my industry has been eye opening. It’s not glamour and money and power, it’s 12 hour days every day and taking your laptop with you on every single vacation.

      • Anon

        WOW. This really hits home.

        “A 2011 report…which described Generation X as the “wrong place, wrong time” generation, noted that “thwarted by boomers who can’t afford to retire and threatened by the prospect of leap-frogging millennials…49 percent of Gen Xers feel stalled in their careers.”

        Can’t agree enough. I’ve got colleagues in their late 60s who just. won’t. leave., and yet the 30-somethings are crawling up my backside.

    • 9-5 dreamer

      I wonder if it’s the same in countries where the culture/laws prioritize life outside of work.

      I am a junior attorney who takes on a lot of responsibility at my work but like to keep close to a 9-5 schedule. I have stayed at the office until 1am and come in early when i need to meet deadlines etc. Some times I feel energized by the insane deadlines but most days I want to put my head down, do my work and leave at a decent time. This simple expectation of a job with humane hours seems laughable in the U.S.

      There is no compensation, minimal appreciation for when I am in the office working late to meet deadlines for days on end but immediate repreprimandation when I leave on time despite meeting all deadlines and otherwise delivering good work-product. In my opinion, this culture of squeezing the most out of the young and mid-level workers to keep the companies profiting is the problem.

  8. Anonymous

    Help. A few weeks ago I paid for a training class on my personal credit card (I have a work CC but the training class cost more than the limit on my card, and this was how the company wanted me to handle it). I submitted an expense report for the expense of the class and got reimbursed in full and paid off the card (there’s never a balance on it otherwise).
    Apparently the training company should have given me a corporate rate, and so they refunded $700 of the registration fee to my personal card. I now have a -$700 balance on the card and guess what I can’t do with a negative balance? Get a cash advance so I can pay my company back for the refund. I called the training company and they seemed befuddled by the whole thing. I explained that they should just charge me $700 on a new invoice, and then issue the $700 credit to my company by check in the company’s name. They’re “looking into it” but “don’t think they’ll be able to do it” because “their system doesn’t work like that.”
    I don’t use this credit card for anything but work expenses and I am not sure how I would charge enough to bring the balance back up to zero; I don’t have any major purchases pending. All my bills are on autopay and I don’t want to move them off autopay just to eat up the credit balance. I’m also not super happy about having to take $700 of my own cash to pay back my company – it’s not a hardship or anything but I would rather not do it, considering this was the training company’s mistake. Any advice?

    • Cat

      I had this happen (not a work card, but still) with my Macy’s card years ago. I returned something after I’d paid my bill and had a negative balance for months bc I rarely shop there. After 6 months I think, they cut me a check for the negative balance to bring my account to 0. Call your credit card, not the training company, to see if you can accelerate that process?

    • mascot

      Something similar has happened to my husband before. He made special arrangements with his employer to charge $x (equal to his credit balance) of expenses to his personal card instead of his company card. I think he had to submit an explanation with his expense report to maintain the paper trail I don’t know if it ever balanced completely to zero, but the company got almost all of the credit that they were due.

    • MagicUnicorn

      Use the credit card for everyday expenses (groceries, incidentals) until the credit balance is gone. After that, and not before, take the cash you did not spend because you were using the credit balance and reimburse your company for the conference refund. If they won’t bump your credit limit up enough to cover your expenses, they can wait to be reimbursed.

      • Rainbow Hair

        This is the correct plan, I believe. And I’d advocate for a higher credit limit unless there’s some sort of global rule.

        I got teased for asking for $[high number] credit limit on my corporate card, but there might be a month where I have to book 3 or 4 round trip flights, corresponding hotels, conference registration, bar fees, and idk, pay some filing fees for something. I don’t want to be unable to do my job because of a credit limit, and I’ve been burned before to the point where I’m pretty hesitant to ‘take one for the team’ and put things on my personal card to be (hopefully, eventually) reimbursed.

    • Anonymous

      Write a 700 check. Don’t use personal card for corporate expenses. Ever.

      • The original Scarlett

        What the what? Most companies reimburse expenses on a personal card. OP – for this one, just talk to your company about how to handle.

      • Idea

        My company doesn’t give us company cards but does reimburse. So… this is not 100% advice that you are giving. Thanks.

      • Anon

        This is bad advice. We don’t get corporate cards. We expense (and I prefer because I get my miles).

        • Anonymous

          This is the OP…I actually am cranky about having to use my corporate card for most expenses because I could get crazy rewards points if I was able to always use my personal card and just get reimbursed. My employer is really good about reimbursement, I get repaid within two business days of submitting the expense report. It’s not reasonable to say someone should “never” use a personal card for business expenses. Even though this situation is an unexpected headache.

    • anon

      Credit card companies are required by law to refund credit balances by check. They will automatically cut you a check within a certain time frame. You can call them and ask them to accelerate this process and you will get the check in 7-10 days. I have done this several times.

      • Nelly Yuki

        This happens to me a lot with my Nordie’s card. When I get the statement with a negative balance, I ask for a check, and I get it within the week. I think maybe the error was referring to this as a cash advance, rather than a refund of the credit balance.

      • anne-on

        +1. I once accidentally paid my Macy’s card instead of my mortgage company (“M”). I called Macy’s freaking out and they kindly express mailed me the check for the negative balance. This happens a lot.

  9. AIMS

    This may be an incredibly stupid question but how do you keep up the Marie Kondo-style folding? I like the idea of being able to see everything but whenever I do this two things happen – first my clothes look like a mess when I take out more than a few things and then it all goes to crap when I’ve refilled my laundry because it’s too hard to put back that way without redoing everything. Am I missing something or is this just not for me? So far my pretty drawers have never survived a full laundry cycle.

    • Lana Del Raygun

      I think you probably need to fold them a little differently — they ought to stay standing up even by themselves. Also, if you’re doing multiple loads of laundry all on one day, maybe spread them out over the week so your drawer is more consistently partly full instead of emptying out and filling up.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t do Kondo but I do something similar. I keep my clothes in smaller chunks so if one or three are gone in a row of five or six, it still looks fine. That said, from what I’ve seen, maybe you could buy some inexpensive bookends and keep them in your drawers – just shove it forward and that’ll keep everything nice and folded.

    • anon

      I’m wondering if you’re trying to cram too much stuff into the drawer? I have managed to keep my t-shirts Kondo’ed but I have to be pretty ruthless about keeping my collection from getting out of control.

      I also think some things are worth the Kondo effort and others are not. I had high hopes of keeping my kids’ drawers Kondo’d … hahahaha, have not been able to keep that up, not if I actually want their help putting things away. (And I do.)

    • Anonymous

      Drawer dividers – lots of them so you only hve 4-5 items in each one max, then it doesn’t get messy when you take something out.

      Fold in MK style when you fold your laundry. After a bit of practice you can do this without thinking about it while watching tv. Stack items vertically in short piles in laundry basket once folded so they don’t get messed when you carry the basket.

      Accept that is doesn’t work for everything. It works great for workout clothes and kids clothes but I can’t MK my black tank tops because i need to see the length and straps to know which one I want for a particular outfit.

    • Diana Barry

      I only Kondo the t-shirt drawers. And it is really hard to keep up, they fall down whenever you take out more than 1 or 2. My solution is to hold the existing t-shirts in the drawer back with one hand while you put in the newly clean/folded t-shirts with the other hand. I can’t do all the drawers like that – my drawers are too shallow and so if you put everything in so it sits in a Kondo fold, it sits too high or doesn’t fit as many in as when you fold them normally/flat in stacks. For my kids’ drawers the solution is (mostly for pants but also for their shirts) to roll each pair of pants before putting them in, rather than doing the Kondo fold.

      • PolyD

        I have been wondering about this – whenever I see the MK fold, I always wonder, how does it stay in order when you start taking shirts out and there’s not enough to hold the other ones up? I see this was a valid concern.

        (Cross task to MK dresser drawers off my list)

    • Anonymous

      You’re missing that this is a hard and finicky thing that takes tons of time.

    • KonMari Addict

      The clothes should stand more or less on their own when folded. So when you take things out, nothing really falls apart, just loosens. And when you fold your laundry, you fold into the same fold and then put it back – it takes about 2 seconds longer than just throwing it into the drawer. I do use drawer dividers (sized like a shoebox) for thin items like camisoles and undershirts. After a while, the folding becomes completely second nature and it does not take “tons of time.”

      It’s totally fine if it’s not for you though!

    • anon

      My mom’s method, which I learned as a child, was the typical american type fold, plus always making sure the single smooth fold stacks evenly at the front of the drawer. Like dept stores do with tee shirts and jeans. That might be a good alternative for you. Or, since I was doing that anyway, the Kondo method was inly one fold more, but I started doing it because I got shallower storage.

  10. Credit Repair?

    A friend recently went through a foreclosure; not surprisingly, this has destroyed her credit and is making future needs (e.g., renting a home for her family) very challenging. She is financially stable but looking for support rebuilding, including repairing her credit.

    This may be an uncommon problem on this board, but if anyone has worked with credit repair advisor or encountered one in their professional lives that they’d recommend, I would greatly appreciate your recommendations! Friend is in the NY tristate area if that is relevant.

    • Idea

      My husband and I looked into a debt consolidation counselor that we found through our EAP. Basically they said they’d work with the companies we were already paying, we’d make 1 monthly or twice-monthly payment that seemed huge to us. Turned out (the way we figured it out) was that it parceled out the payments to everyone we owed, plus some went into like an escrow or savings for us, and then when we made most of the payments anyway, like 90 or 95% of what we owed, then it would close the accounts. It didn’t seem worth it to us when we were doing ok making the payments and stuff, it was just that we owed a lot. So we didn’t do that.
      Also — we have rented out our house (in 2010-2012) to people with lower credit scores for whatever reasons (Ok, bankruptcies, foreclosures, etc.) but evidence of job and income and it worked out ok. So the possibilities are still for them. They should be ok working with social workers, asking for financial aid or vouchers or whatever is needed to stay and seem “middle class”. It’ll work out.

      • Idea

        I think we went through Consumer Credit Counseling, sponsored by financial guru and all-around nice guy Clark Howard: clark.com
        Good luck. You’re a good friend. Please stick with her, listen to her gripe and become obsessed with money and luck, she will emerge OK. You will too.

    • Anon

      I would maybe first focus on the underlying reason that resulted in foreclosure. With steady finances, there are details missing. Only go here if she’s asking for this kind of guidance but yea.

      FIL filed BK. Hired someone to clean up the mess (still not 100% convince they weren’t crooks). 10 years later he did it again. He’s deceased now and we’ve had to sort through his estate recently, which is how we all know this now. It’s clear no coaching or magic makers would have kept him out of trouble. Don’t address the symptoms without diagnosing the cause.

    • JuniorMinion

      Once you’ve gone through foreclosure the only thing that can repair your credit is time and a track record of paying other bills successfully. It would be concerning for me as a potential landlord that based on what you’ve written your friend doesn’t seem to understand what a huge deal this is and what a high bar there (usually should be, recognize there are people in unfair situations out there) is to foreclosing on a home.

      Key things for your friend:
      Can they demonstrate the foreclosure was a one off / poor investment decision and they have not had trouble paying other bills? This will help with renting a house / apartment
      Be upfront about the foreclosure and mitigation steps being taken
      Be willing to consider rentals in less desirable locations / with less desirable features
      Be willing to offer up multiple months of a security deposit

  11. Interview attire help

    Need some advice about what to wear to an upcoming interview. I am 10+ years into my career, going to interview at a law firm (Amlaw 200) for a lateral partner position. I have worked in Biglaw and in house for a large company, and am established in my career but have taken a couple years off for family reasons. What should I wear? I don’t want to look like a first year associate in a standard interview suit, but want to project my experience and professionalism. I have a formal navy Theory skirt suit, but wonder if that will come off as overkill/over eager. I am considering wearing a navy sheath dress with a tweed jacket. Will that be underdressed?

    • Cat

      Without knowing what the tweed jacket looks like, hard to opine. But you can wear the navy suit and avoid “my career services office told me to wear this” by choosing a more interesting blouse/shoes/accessories. Just avoid the standard issue pearls or studs/white shirt/navy or black leather pumps/padfolio.

      I’m picturing… gray bag, navy suede heels, light blue silk top. Or… navy bag, gray heels, orangey or pink top. Or cognac bag/heels with a top that has a navy pattern. Sub in pointed-toe flats if you’re more comfortable in them.

    • Anon

      I would go for the tweed rather than a cookie cutter suit. It reflects your seniority and confidence.

    • cbackson

      Wear the navy suit. It’s true that suits aren’t common attire for senior female lawyers at a lot of large firms these days, but they’re still standard for interviews. If you’re reentering the workforce after taking time off for family reasons, you’ll already face some assumptions that you’re out of touch with workplace norms. The last thing you want is to have your clothing convey support that assumption.

      I’ve been practicing in biglaw 11 years, am a partner, and would wear a suit if I were interviewing.

      • anon

        Yes, wear the navy suit – that is standard interview attire. No to tweed….

    • Anonymous

      Wear a suit. A non matching dress jacket combo is way too informal. A full suit

    • The original Scarlett

      I’d do the navy suit but with a patterned/ interesting blouse and shoes. That takes you out of junior territory.

      • Chi Squared

        Junior BigLaw partner here who recently lateralled. I 2nd Scarlett’s recommendation. I wore a grey suit with a dark short sleeve shirt and colorful scarf to my initial group interview with the firm managing partner and practice group head. Everyone in the group wore suits. The more senior woman partner wore a non-traditional suit, but it was still a matching top and bottom. Good luck!

    • Rainbow Hair

      Junior BigLaw partner here who recently lateralled. I 2nd Scarlett’s recommendation. I wore a grey suit with a dark short sleeve shirt and colorful scarf to my initial group interview with the firm managing partner and practice group head. Everyone in the group wore suits. The more senior woman partner wore a non-traditional suit, but it was still a matching top and bottom. Good luck!

    • Anonymous

      Navy suit. At 10 or 12 years out you are still a relatively junior partner, and suits are still standard for interviews. I am the same position and just went through the same thing, and I wore my beautiful but standard grey suit.

  13. emeralds

    What were your wedding readings? How did you pick them? My fiance and I are meeting with our officiant in two weeks to discuss our ceremony, and I feel like we’re flailing. We’re having a mostly-civil ceremony, but will have one reading from the Song of Solomon and my uncle (who is a pastor) will do a short prayer.

    Other than that, I do not have one single clue.

    • buffybot

      I did a lot of googling of “non-cheesy wedding readings” or wedding readings that won’t make you gag – A Practical Wedding has some good resources.
      Ultimately we decided on the following:
      – an excerpt from Goodridge v Dept of Public Health (as our wedding predated Obergefell, but I loved what it said about civil marriage as we are not religious and I am a lawyer so the nerdery suited)
      – A poem that I have loved for a long time called Archipelago of Kisses
      – An excerpt from a writer that we both loved (Madeleine L’Engle)
      I wanted stuff that was not super mainstream, and I have a real problem with rhyming poetry with bad meter. Also, no god since neither of us is religious. So we spent time thinking about what marriage meant to us as a couple and tried to find readings that suited.

      • Vicky Austin

        L’Engle is the BEST. I had a Catholic wedding, which have a narrow range of readings allowed, but I insisted on having that one verse from Song of Songs that includes the words “Many waters cannot quench love.”

        OP, perhaps you’ll find some good inspiration at Offbeat Bride. I particularly like “The Day the Saucers Came” by Neil Gaiman: https://offbeatbride.com/silly-wedding-readings/
        Also, I think one of the readings at Princess Eugenie’s wedding was from the Great Gatsby because she read it shortly after meeting Jack and it reminds her of that time in her life, or something like that? Do you have any books or poems or movies that remind you of meeting/falling in love/other special times in your relationship?

        • emeralds

          Ooh, thank you! I really like some of the ones on that Offbeat Bride list.

          Obergefell is also a great idea! I remember going to a wedding a couple of years ago that used it, and thinking what a wonderful statement it was on the importance of marriage.

    • Lawyer Here!

      Two readings from same-sex marriage cases. Goodridge v. Dept of Public Health:

      Marriage is a vital social institution. The exclusive commitment of two individuals to
      each other nurtures love and mutual support; it brings stability to our society.
      For those who choose to marry — and for their children — marriage provides an
      abundance of legal, financial, and social benefits.
      In return, it imposes weighty legal, financial, and social obligations… 
      Civil marriage is at once a deeply personal commitment to another human being, and a
      highly public celebration of the ideals of mutuality, companionship, intimacy, fidelity,
      and family… 
      Because it fulfills yearnings for security, safe haven, and connection that express our
      common humanity, civil marriage is an esteemed institution, and the decision whether
      and whom to marry is among life’s momentous acts of self-definition.

      and Obergefell v. Hodges:
      Marriage is sacred to those who live by their religions and offers unique fulfillment to
      those who find meaning in the secular realm.
      Its dynamic allows two people to find a life that could not be found alone, for a marriage
      becomes greater than just the two persons…
      Rising from the most basic human needs, marriage is essential to our most profound
      hopes and aspirations…
      Marriage responds to the universal fear that a lonely person might call out — only to find
      no one there. It offers the hope of companionship and understanding and assurance
      that while both still live — there will be someone to care for the other.
      No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love,
      fidelity, devotion, sacrifice, and family.
      In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were.
      …marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death.

      • emeralds

        Interesting. One of my readers is a poet, so it would actually be pretty cool to throw that out to her and see if she has any ideas!

        • Anon

          Yes, that was my friend’s reasoning as she didn’t feel strongly about the readings, and I was an English major, writer and huge reader so she trusted me to pick something.

    • Anon

      I had an areligious ceremony and poured over poems, book excerpts, and song lyrics that I loved. I ultimately decided on “I carry your heart in my heart” by E.E. Cummings.

      • trefoil

        We had a passage from Written on the Body, by Jeanette Winterson , and The Wedding Poem, by Neil Gaiman. Areligious, brief, and lovely.

    • Worry about yourself

      Do you want them? If so, maybe Google “wedding readings” for ideas. But don’t feel like you need to pad your ceremony with readings. I went to a wedding where the wedding party took turns reading song lyrics (not singing them, just deadpan reciting them) and it was . . . tedious. There’s nothing wrong with keeping the ceremony short and sweet.

      • Anon

        + Team short and sweet ceremony here. I’m ok with one or two readings that are meaningful to the couple, but at a ceremony I really just want to see you say your vows, kiss and be pronounced as spouses.

        • Anonymous

          Lol the things people feel entitled to have preferences about. Team multiple readings, hymns, and communion here!

          • Anon

            Oh the irony of you complaining about people expressing preferences about the ceremony….while expressing your own preferences about the ceremony.

      • emeralds

        We’re definitely on team short and sweet. We’re planning on a max of three readings (one Biblical for the families, two that actually represent us). The only other “extra” element will be the (short!! hopefully! although he’s a talker so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) prayer.

    • Anonymous

      Khalil Gibran’s On Marriage from the Prophet and a bit from Song of Solomon. We wanted something not religious and basically just searched around on the Internet until we found something we like (I wanted something from a sci fi or fantasy novel but husband rejected all of those…). It turned out after we picked it that my parents had actually read the same thing at their wedding. And Song of Solomon because we wanted a religious reading to placate the grandparents and that was the only one we could find that wasn’t overly religious (as we are not)

      • Anonymous

        Oh, and we considered excerpts from several of the SCOTUS marriage cases (both lawyers) and husband rejected those as potentially political (as we had guests of all political persuasions), which I didn’t necessarily agree with but decided that wasn’t a fight worth having since readings weren’t that big of a deal to me.

      • emeralds

        Ha, you nailed the reason we’re doing a reading from the Song of Solomon! We need to check the Bible box for family politics, and did not want something overtly religious.

    • Flats Only

      Your officiant will have suggestions. Ours (Ethical Society) gave us an outline of a “typical” ceremony, and various readings, pieces of text, etc. that we could plug in once we edited the outline to our liking. It made the whole thing pretty easy.

      • anon

        I seriously looked over The Gift, by Hafiz, for readings, but in the end chose to give the book to DH as a wedding gift instead.

      • emeralds

        My fiance has a noted sweet tooth, so comparing our marriage to halvah would be weirdly appropriate…

    • Anon

      For the religious – Psalm 143:8 and Proverbs 3:3-4. Bonus that they’re only a sentence or two.
      Secular and pro-feminist – To love is not to possess by James Kavanaugh

    • SustainabilityFashion

      We spent a lot of time searching for a wedding reading in addition to our bible reading (also Song of Solomon) as also wanted something non-cheesy and a bit different.

      We eventually settled for A.S.J. Tessimond: First Meeting

      When I first met you,
      I knew that I had come at last home.
      Home after wandering,
      Home after long-puzzled searching,
      Home after long being wind-born,
      Wave-tossed, night-caught, long being lost.
      And being with you was normal and needful
      And natural as sleeping or waking.
      And I was myself,
      Who had never been wholly myself.
      I was walking and talking
      And laughing easily at last.
      And the air was softer,
      And sounds were sharper,
      And colours were brighter,
      And the sky was higher,
      And length was not measured by milestones,
      And time was not measured by clocks.
      And this end was a beginning,
      And these words are the beginning –
      Of my thanks.

      • Vicky Austin

        Oh this is beautiful, I love it. “I was myself who had never been wholly myself.”

        • SustainabilityFashion

          I get goosebumps still reading it now! It doesn’t seem to be very well known, we found it in a BBC Radio 4 anthology.

    • Rainbow Hair

      My mom sang the Book of Love for us.

      If I had to do it again, I would seriously consider having someone read The Conditional by Ada Limon.

    • Anon

      I adore Neruda:

      One Hundred Love Sonnets: XVII

      I don’t love you as if you were a rose of salt, topaz,
      or arrow of carnations that propagate fire:
      I love you as one loves certain obscure things,
      secretly, between the shadow and the soul.

      I love you as the plant that doesn’t bloom but carries
      the light of those flowers, hidden, within itself,
      and thanks to your love the tight aroma that arose
      from the earth lives dimly in my body.

      I love you without knowing how, or when, or from where,
      I love you directly without problems or pride:
      I love you like this because I don’t know any other way to love,
      except in this form in which I am not nor are you,
      so close that your hand upon my chest is mine,
      so close that your eyes close with my dreams.

      • Never too many shoes...

        I recited that poem at my best friend’s wedding (although a slightly different translation). Not a dry eye in the house.

    • Lise

      We chose a passage that Robert Fulghum (Unitarian minister and author of All I Really Need To Know I Learned in Kindergarten) wrote as marriage advice for his god-daughter. We pretty much had a basic Jewish ceremony, but we wanted somewhat before the ring exchange that would be a little more personalized (and casual, because that’s what we’re like).

      “In almost every way that really matters you are already married. You’ve moved through the stages: romance, falling in love, moving in together, combining resources and hopes and dreams – making a daily life and long-term life plans. You have some agreements about laundry, garbage, the dishes, and budgets.

      The real vows are the ones you’ve been making to one another all along – from the first time you held hands and kissed until now. Most authentic promises are made over the kitchen table, before falling asleep, or on the way home after having dinner with your parents. Sentences that begin with ‘From now on . . .’ and ‘We’re always going to . . .’ and ‘I’m all in with this. . .’ and ‘No matter what happens, we will . . .’ and ‘Promise me we won’t be like that.’ Those are the vows that count.

      It’s called the making of a covenant. When you get to the wedding ceremony you might just as well say to each other, ‘You know all those things we said that got us to this moment? Well, I meant every word of it.'”

    • Senior Attorney

      In addition to the very wonderful suggestions already given, I heard this one at a wedding recently and really liked it:

      BLESSING FOR A MARRIAGE
      ~ James Dillet Freeman ~

      May your marriage bring you all the exquisite excitements a marriage should bring, and may life grant you also patience, tolerance, and understanding.

      May you always need one another – not so much to fill your emptiness as to help you to know your fullness. A mountain needs a valley to be complete; the valley does not make the mountain less, but more; and the valley is more a valley because it has a mountain towering over it. So let it be with you and you.

      May you need one another, but not out of weakness.
      May you want one another, but not out of lack.
      May you entice one another, but not compel one another.
      May you embrace one another, but not out encircle one another.
      May you succeed in all important ways with one another, and not fail in the little graces.
      May you look for things to praise, often say, “I love you!” and take no notice of small faults.

      If you have quarrels that push you apart, may both of you hope to have good sense enough to take the first step back.

      May you enter into the mystery which is the awareness of one another’s presence – no more physical than spiritual, warm and near when you are side by side, and warm and near when you are in separate rooms or even distant cities.
      May you have happiness, and may you find it making one another happy.
      May you have love, and may you find it loving one another.

  14. Anon

    When you have an awkward social anxiety inducing encounter first thing in the morning and you want to go home and crawl in bed. Why can’t I stop putting my foot in my mouth??

    • Gigi

      Aw, I feel like this is me, just every day.
      Remember, whatever it is, nobody cares as much as you do – something I need to constantly remind myself.

    • PolyD

      Also remember that in the moment, you feel the most humiliated you ever will. In an hour you’ll feel moderately humiliated. By the end of the day only slightly humiliated. In a day or two, you’ll barely remember the incident.

      And, what Gigi said. Nobody cares as much as you do, most people probably won’t even notice. How often do you think, Geez, Colleague X is SO awkward? Pretty seldom, I guess.

  15. Maps as Art - rec?

    Any recommended vendors? We’d like a custom location (not a big city) with no text. There are a gazillion options online. Not sure how to distinguish among quality/service without a personal rec. I think we’d be doing framing ourselves but open to a company that might offer that beyond the map poster, too.

    • Anon

      I haven’t done exactly this, but I have had good luck with Etsy for similar things. Most vendors have a lot of reviews.

    • Parfait

      Look at Lakebound maps. They do custom work. It’s owned by a friend of mine and the work is beautiful, if their style suits you.

  16. Worry about yourself

    I decided to treat myself to a new dress to reward my recent weight loss efforts, and bought a yellow dress at Ann Taylor. I love it, and I love how I look in it, but . . . what’s the best thing to wear with this? I work in a fairly casual office where jeans are not uncommon and my attire is on the more formal end of the spectrum, but I like dressing up (dressing for the job I want, etc.). All my blazers are black, but when I wore a black blazer with this I looked like a bee. Should I pair this with a navy one? Or maybe keep my eyes open for a nice light grey blazer? I wore a navy blue cardigan with it today, and it looked fine, but I feel like I can do better.

    • Houda

      Assuming it is a very saturated yellow: I would LOVE a Cobalt blazer with a bright yellow dress but I can stomach high contrast. Otherwise, I’d go for white

    • Falstaff

      I think light gray would be nice. Check out Sushdp on IG for some color pairing ideas – she is my inspiration for colorful business casual

    • Panda Bear

      I like yellow with navy and white. For a casual day, what about a polished dark denim jacket?

      • Worry about yourself

        Hmm, I’m not feeling the denim idea, but I do like exploring navy and white. Maybe I can find some navy and white shoes to go with this.

    • Anon

      Navy, light gray, or complementary colored seersucker boyfriend blazer (for a more casual look)

    • anon

      Combining some of the suggestions above, I like the idea of a navy and white striped blazer, like this–https://shop.nordstrom.com/s/caslon-knit-one-button-blazer-petite/3782608?origin=keywordsearch-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FAll%20Results&color=navy-%20white%20stripe.

    • PolyD

      Try olive! Depends on the shade of yellow, but olive can look good. Or maybe tan/khaki, for less contrast?

      I have a bright golden yellow (marigold?) blouse that I like best with a sort of purple/wine colored cardigan. The colors have similar intensity, so they seem to “go” pretty well. But you’d have to experiment.

      • Worry about yourself

        The wine color combined with yellow might be interesting to explore in the fall! But I think yellow and navy, or yellow with blue and white, might be a more suitable direction for summer. I do live near the ocean, and I love nautical color combos, especially when it’s warm enough to be near the water!

    • Biggestballsintheroom

      I love yellow with navy. I have an informal navy with white polka dots blazer that I routinely pair with a bright yellow blouse.

    • Anon

      I love yellow with navy. I have an informal navy with white polka dots blazer that I routinely pair with a bright yellow blouse.

    • Anonymous

      chambray blazer? I think AT has one now. or a linen blazer in a navy fabric.

  17. Anon

    Who has tips and recommendations for planning a Willamette Valley girls trip? Going in August, will be in the area 4ish days, seeing Portland separately, would like to include some light hiking and activity but mother’s knees won’t allow anything strenuous. What town or area makes the best home base? Will probably look to an Airbnb but open to a B&B or cool hotel.

    • cbackson

      Check out the various McMenamin’s hotels – they’re cool.

      I like McMinnville.

    • Anon

      I went in September and loved it! We stayed at an Air BnB in McMinnville, but there were plenty of small, boutique hotels along the main street in town. The town also has lots of tasting rooms and cute little restaurants. Highly recommend Bistro Maison for dinner if you stay in McMinnville. Community Plate is a great breakfast and two good tasting rooms were: Terra Vina and R. Stuart.

      We used the NW Wine Shuttle to get around for a full day of tastings. They go to something like 14 wineries and it is a hop-on, hop-off deal. We also did a couple wineries on our own on different days. Of the wineries we went to here are some highlights:
      – Soter – this was our favorite and we did a meal pairing here and it was wonderful. Beautiful winery, views and delicious wines and foods.
      – Elk Cove
      – Alloro
      -White Rose
      – Stoller
      – Archery Summit

      I would skip Domaine Serene, even though it is beautiful, they were extraordinarily rude and we downed our tasting and headed out pretty much immediately due to the service.

      We also did a day drive out to the coast and stopped at Tillamook Creamery on the way for lunch (all the cheese!) and then hit Manzanita Beach and Cannon Beach. There is a hike and lookout point called Neahkahnie. We stopped at the lookout but didn’t do the hike because we were hungover. But it is supposed to be a relatively easy hike.

      Enjoy your trip!

      • Anon

        I haven’t been to Oregon wine country but a hop-on/hop-off wine shuttle is genius. I don’t know why something like that doesn’t exist in Napa.

  18. Anonymous

    Outfit suggestions for going to a Yankees game in L.A. with coworkers next week? We’re sitting in regular seats, not in a suite. I’m not much into baseball but this should be fun if I can figure out what to wear.

    • Anon

      Jeans and a T-shirt. Don’t overthink this – a baseball game is literally the easiest thing to dress for.

      • Anon

        And sunscreen and a hat – preferably a team baseball cap. The worst sunburns I’ve ever gotten have been in baseball stadiums, because you’re just sitting there exposing the exact same parts of your body to the sun for 3 hours straight.

    • Senior Attorney

      Yep, jeans and a tee. Also a jacket if it’s a night game because because it gets cold. If you have time I’d get a team t-shirt (either Dodgers or Yankees, depending on who you’re rooting for.)

      • Anon

        I’d actually vote against wasting money on a special t-shirt when you said you don’t follow baseball. They’re overpriced and made of cheap materials.

        • Lana Del Raygun

          If you don’t get a special t-shirt, I think it’s more fun if you can find regular clothes in team colors.

        • Flats Only

          And if you have a team T-shirt, people will assume you DO follow the team, and try to use it as a topic of discussion.

        • Anon

          +1 There’s no need to go get a team-specific hat or t-shirt for what will literally only be a few hours.

        • Senior Attorney

          I don’t follow baseball but I go to Dodger Stadium about once a year and I wear my one Dodgers shirt on that occasion and have for years. Also very occasionally when I am invited to somebody’s house to watch the playoffs or whatever. YMMV, of course.

  19. 1901?

    Has anyone bought Nordstrom’s 1901 brand? I’m seeing some promising looking pieces but wanted to know if it’s worth trying. Thanks!

    • Anon

      I did. I think it’s just another name for their house brand. Quality not dissimilar from
      halogen.

  20. No Longer Crying Uncontrollably?

    Thank you everyone for responding to my long post about Object Relations Therapy (and crying uncontrollably) a few weeks ago. https://corporette.com/cotton-blazer-rose-tattoo-mesh-jumpsuit/#comment-3898963

    Your advice was immensely helpful — I have since come off the Pill on my doc’s rec, and have also found a new therapist (too early to tell whether it will work but I’m hopeful). I also realized that I’m reluctant to be empathetic towards myself, so I was berating myself and kicking myself when I was down for having all these FEELINGS when I thought that the situation didn’t warrant such an intense response. Additionally, improved communication with SO re “turning toward” and not “turning away” has definitely had a positive effect since my crying outbursts are no longer triggered. (Senior Attorney, thank you for raising the point of whether it’s the relationship and not all me. It did give me pause.)

    On the last point — Please talk me down if I’m rationalizing (and rambling alert), but I think the issue was party due to SO and I both having had parents who tended to “turn away/against” a LOT (and not “turn toward” us so much), therefore a combination of 1) both not having good communication models for “turning toward” and never really learning how to communicate well, and 2) me being very attuned/sensitive whenever I perceive a “turning away/against”, and anxious that the pattern will not change (despite evidence to the contrary so far).

    FWIW, SO is good about “turning toward” at least 80% of the time, which is what made me think that there’s a different element at play than just the relationship (which is otherwise easy, with similar values and goals, interesting conversations and lots of playfulness) and the SO (who is otherwise kind and affectionate, but also is Italian and isn’t always aware of how his verbal responses come off when translated in English).

    For the time being, we are reading Gottmans’ book, The Relationship Cure, after reading the Atlantic article featuring its key idea about turning away/towards. It has helped identify the “turning away/against” behavior and (pre-emptively) improved our communication somewhat. I’m still concerned and anxious that we may slip into familiar communication patterns when we’re busy/mindless and I won’t be able to handle it, though it might be my anxiety.

    Not sure what I’m asking here, I feel a bit sheepish for hoping for validation/gut check from internet strangers. My gut says SO is a good guy that I’d like to be with but the communication thing is something we need to work through if I am to be with him. SO has demonstrated willingness to work on it from the very start, although neither of us are very adept at “turning toward” to begin with and eagerness alone probably isn’t a cure. For me, it’s also super confusing because I’ve always firmly been in the camp that you don’t try to “fix” someone you love — and is it what I’m trying to do here with the communication issue? Plus it’s been really hard to think straight with all the nonstop crying. I guess I’m planning to give it time, and work through the book together. I’m all ears if the hive has any other recommendations — I’ve thought about couples therapy, but not sure it’s warranted at this stage.

    • Lana Del Raygun

      “SO has demonstrated willingness to work on it from the very start” and the fact that you’re talking about an issue with communication (which by definition involves both of you) keep this from being “trying to fix someone,” in my opinion. There’s a HUGE difference between “I want you to be different/a different person” and “We are collaboratively trying to behave differently.”

    • Anonymous

      My DH’s second language is English. He has lived and worked in English for 10+ years but emotional chats are still hard. In counselling we learned to do active listening which means you repeat back what you understand your partner to be telling you so that any misunderstandings can be clarified. This works best for us when I express myself in English and he active listens what I said in his language. It helps because we realized that vocab around emotional words is hard, and there are often not exact equivalents. Like he thought I was saying I was angry about something when I meant ‘upset’ in the sense of ‘sad’. This depends on your ability to understand his language though.

    • Senior Attorney

      It’s my view that relationships stand or fall on the worst parts and if you are unhappy with the relationship 20% of the time, that seems like a lot of the time. See also: I believe relationships should be easy, especially early on. So I feel like this is at least on the borderline of violating my “people are not improvement projects” rule.

      But if you and he are both truly interested in working on your communication style, I think couples therapy could be very helpful in this instance, especially if you can find a Gottman-trained therapist.

      Hugs again! I hope you can find some peace!

    • Anonymous

      You need to deal with your anxiety on your own. It isn’t his fault that you’re suffering from anxiety, and you’re getting way too into the weeds on whether he turns towards you 80 or 90 of the time. Figure yourself out, get control back, and then see how you feel. I hope you’re discussing medication.

  21. Anonymous

    I’m dating a wonderful man who is compatible with me in every way…except he trolls people online. I find this disgusting, and he admittedly has reduced his trolling. But I don’t understand why this is fun?

    He likes to go to right wing social media groups (he is not right wing). His social media has basically a fake name (nickname and middle name, no last name) and a photo of his pet for anonymity. He either posts a poorly spelled comment in support to see if they’ll believe him (they always do), or he writes a contrary post to “trigger” them. He thinks it is funny to see them “so easily triggered” and gets excited to see 20 or 30 argumentative responses. Admittedly, he doesn’t argue back, but I see zero point to this behavior.

    In real life, he is kind, thoughtful, and even somewhat passive. Maybe he likes to play the devil’s advocate online for attention? I just don’t understand…I purposefully never read the proverbial comments. I find it exhausting. He finds it exhilarating and says he gets a rush of dopamine from it. Before people recommend therapy…he is a psychologist himself! He does have his own therapist, and I’ve encouraged him to discuss it, but I’m not sure they have.

    • Cat

      Does he…. know you read here? Maybe he’s our new pet tr0ll.

      The behavior itself is bizarre to me, too — like is he feeling so inadequate that he needs to laugh at people for taking him seriously? So out of control that he likes to “control” people’s responses to him?

    • Anonymous

      No, I only read/post here at work. He doesn’t know.

      And yes! The pet troll actually prompted me to write this post. His behavior has been annoying me out of principle. How is it funny that people take you at face value when you write a statement online to strangers who have no reason NOT to take you at face value?

      • Anon

        A serious response – for me, it would depend on the nature of his trolling. My friend’s husband is a writer and a philosopher and is most definitely an internet troll. However, he trolls as his twitter screen name, he doesn’t go after private citizens personally, he’ll flame public figures but only for their views/things they do in the public eye and doesn’t wish ill on them personally. He’s a good guy in real life, and while I wouldn’t love it if my spouse was like that, but it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker. It’s how he prefers to spend his time on the internet; I’d frankly prefer harmless trolling over being a gamer, for example. It’s a good sign that he’s open about it with you, and he’s reduced it.

    • Anon

      The internet *is* real life. It’s not like what he does online doesn’t count when it comes to what kind of person he is. If he’s not a good person online, then he’s not a good person.

    • Anon

      Imagine him doing this to you when he has little reason to treat you well. That’s what you’re signing up for.

    • Anonymous

      I wonder if it’s some kind of psychological sandbox for him? I can see how this would be amusing at the age of 12 or 13. The fact that it’s not simply boring at his age makes me wonder if he’s connecting it all to his professional knowledge and perhaps needs a better outlet for that interest.

      I personally have a pretty high tolerance and appreciation for the satire, critique, and insight that can be achieved by the gadflies of internet culture, but making alt-right message boards mad is shooting pigeons.

      • Anonymous

        He doesn’t write really mean comments per se…just contrary comments to rile people up…like “stop being so hateful”(if criticizing alt right) or “Trump best president evah no collussion 100%” (if “tricking” them into thinking he is supportive)… I don’t get it.

    • Worry about yourself

      I was going to ask if you were dating my ex, but there’s no way my ex is a psychologist right now. That behavior is so immature, I would not date an otherwise grown ass man who does this. Who’s to say he won’t do it to you at some point, and then laugh at you when you’re all worked up? Maybe he’s not doing it now, maybe right now he’s on his best behavior to charm his way into the relationship, and then one day he’ll troll you on an opinion you express that he finds silly – these trolls are usually biased towards one side of the ideological spectrum, but that’s not to say that someone who trolls conservatives won’t troll a liberal opinion he disagrees with, especially where feminism is concerned (I know from experience). Nope, this is a massive deal-breaker. Even if he was the calmer, “I’m just playing devil’s advocate” type of dude, I wouldn’t wanna date that kind of guy either.

  22. Former Parisian

    What would you wear for attending a sports game with a client on a Saturday night? The client owns the team that will be playing.

    • Anon

      Normally I would say you don’t need to wear team apparel, but if your client owns the team, I would probably invest in team apparel.

    • Anonymous

      I was once in this situation, except it was the university president’s box at a NCAA event. I wore a team polo shirt (light blue) with a matching navy blue blazer and ponte pants. It was an outdoor football game in Sept. in the SEUS. I eventually took my blazer off. I think it may vary based on your geographic location, venue, and the weather.

    • Anonymous

      As someone who worked in house at a pro team, do not wear the team gear. The owner will not likely be wearing the team gear. Wear something in a similar color to the team’s primary color. Go more business casual than business formal. If you have seen the owner at games in super casual clothing, go ahead and wear dark jeans and a top.

    • Former Parisian

      Thank you! These are all sensible suggestions. I am thinking silk top in team colour, blazer and chinos.

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