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Updated: Oct 30, 2018 368 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Courtney Scuba Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. taupe-blush-black-sheath-dress-christin-michaelsReader V wrote in to recommend this dress, noting “I'd recommend Christin Michaels Courtney Scuba dress. I think this is the perfect dress, not too dressy, not too plain, never wrinkles and makes any figure look like an hour glass figure. In black taupe and pink it flatters practically anyone. It can be worn alone or with a jacket. I have worn mine in trade shows where I have to look good, but also have to work hard and look good – not frazzled.” Nice! It's only $47 at Amazon — but it's also only available in sizes 10-16. The brand has several other scuba dresses available right now though, at Amazon, 6pm and Zappos for $39-$129 — love the mix of colorful patterns and classic shapes, combined with a stretchy scuba ponte; lots of the dresses have pockets, too. Pictured: Christin Michaels Courtney Scuba Dress On the plus side, this floral scuba dress or this one are both pretty. Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-all)

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Comments

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know – I feel like every secretary in my office is rocking this look right now. It seemed fresh like 4 years ago but now it’s sort of starting to read like those t-shirts with the body/bikini drawn on to me.

      • Anonymous

        Didn’t mean this to sound like I’m looking down on the admin staff. Their average age is about ten – fifteen years older than me and definitely not into style as much.

        • Anonymous

          Or, channeling Miranda Priestly: when Stella McCartney did it and Kate Blanchett wore it, it seemed fresh. Then, it filtered down to mall fashion and everyone did it. And then it seemed to be done.

      • SD

        It’s unfortunate because often the most flattering, easy-to-wear things are what filters down to mall fashion and gets overdone (for obvious reasons), and I’m always so bummed that it’s “ruined.” Oh well.

          • Anonymous

            Because it’s not interesting or unique -it’s very generic – like if everyone in the office was wearing a slightly different version of the same shoe.

          • all about eevee

            Thanks for your comment, Anonymous. I think that I just don’t think about whether or not something is overdone when I am selecting pieces. I just go for what I like. I have a very particular sense of style, though.

    • AKB

      I hate exposed zippers. I don’t care how ubiquitous they are. I can’t wear a blazer with any dress with an exposed zipper because the bottom of the zipper extends beyond the bottom of the blazer, and it just looks sloppy in my opinion.

    • Anonymous

      I’m gonna be honest…I don’t have a problem with exposed zippers. They’re everywhere at this point and I’m already a hard enough size to shop for so I can’t limit myself anymore. I draw the line at exposed zipper along the entire dress length (from top to bottom)

  2. Brange

    Their divorce is turning into such a hot mess. I’m surprised to see her play it out in the media as I would have thought keeping it quiet would be the better media strategy. I’m assuming it’s her side leaking as there has been a fairly steady stream of anti-Brad stuff. I believe it, I’m just thinking based on how it’s being piece out day by day to stay in the headlines and how tightly she locked down the double mastectomy situation, that it’s strategic on her part.

    • anon

      I’m already tired of hearing about it. I cannot for the life of me fathom why anyone cares about some stranger’s divorce.

      • CountC

        I’m with you. I don’t have/watch TV and I don’t frequent the gossip sites or read the gossip mags for a reason.

    • Anonymous

      It’s absolutely strategic and its presumably a bid to gain full custody of the kids, not because she wants to be in the press. I don’t feel bad for Brad though. He ditched Jennifer Aniston for this woman, so its karma as far as I’m concerned.

      • Shopaholic

        It’s driving me crazy that people keep bringing Jennifer Aniston into this. They broke up like 12 years ago! I know I no longer care about my exes from 5 years ago, forget about 12.

        • Anonymous

          Eh, I agree she’s not jumping up and down screaming or making any kind of public announcement, and she’s clearly moved on and is over him, but you don’t think she’s privately thinking he had it coming? I don’t know. If my ex had broken my heart by cheating on me with and then leaving me for a woman who was famous for being one of the hottest women in the world, I think I would take a little delight in watching his a$$ get handed to him by that woman, even 12 years later (assuming the media narrative around the Pitt-Aniston breakup is correct, which it may well not be). Even if I was happily remarried and over him.

    • Closet Redux

      What do you mean by “locking down the double mastectomy situation”? I thought that was a medical decision (though I understand there are debates as to whether mastectomies are medically necessary). Are you suggesting that was a PR/ sympathy move? Or a financial one? I am hesitant to look askance at a woman’s medical decisions as suspect.

      • Anonymous

        I think OP meant that her health issues were all handled very privately and not known until Jolie formally announced it, so she’s clearly good at managing the press and keeping things on the down low when she wants to. I didn’t read it as criticism of the medical decision itself.

        • OP

          Exactly this. She was clearly able to keep control of the press leaks when it was important to her. The way the info has been leaking out day by day (instead of one big splash and then over) makes it seem very intentional which is hard on kids. They don’t need their friends seeing this stuff everyday.

  3. Social Confidence?

    Tips for acting confident in social situations? I am usually very confident in social situations, but DH has one group of friends where I always feel slightly nervous and awkward. They are perfectly nice, but they are uber successful, thin, beautiful people (some even semi-famous). I feel intimidated, and I know I shouldn’t, they are extremely nice people and I am usually super outgoing and social. Any tips?

    • Jen

      You’re there for a reason! DH has this issue with a. friend group of mine that I was part of before he met. They are super smart/successful and a few are in the media fairly often. He always gets really edgy in a way I’ve never seen him. I *always* remind him that these are people I’ve know for over 20 years, they love me and they love him and they see a lot of what he does as uniquely interesting/something they could never do (one of DH’s hobbies is restoring antique cars, for example). Plus, DH is doing really well in his career- it’s just not a field this friend group is in (think: top architect/partner for a big firm in a crowd of high profile lawyers).

    • Anonymous

      semi-famous people are just people. People who are physically beautiful or successful in their careers are just people. All people, regardless of their celebrity status, have stuff they deal with, etc. there’s no reason to think of them as anything other than just normal people, no different from any other social situation.

    • bridget

      I’ve been on both sides of this – the person who feels like the underachiever in the room, and the person who intimidates other people. (Sometimes, this even happens in the same week.)

      I promise you that they care a lot less than you think they do, and would actually be a bit disappointed if they found out you felt awkward around them.

    • Idea

      i think the movie “Notting Hill” deals with this nicely.
      Or absurdly. Whatever.

      I’m sure you actually have a lot in common, right? Even if they’re super rich, they have issues with siblings or restaurants or clothes shopping or co-workers. Or they’ve heard the same songs and dance silly, too. Focus on what you have in common.

  4. say whaaa?

    So, Amal Clooney is suing Isis. Really? I am having first year civ pro flashbacks. And remembering all of the process servers from Law & Order reruns. How, exactly, do you serve them? Assuming you win, how, exactly, do you enforce a judgement against them? This is just some PR gimick, no?

      • Anonymous

        No. Sure, it’s about the message, but it’s not a gimmick. She’s representing a real client, with a goal of forcing the world to call Isis genocide, and also:

        ” I think one of the ways to take action is to expose their brutality and their corruption, and partly you can do that through trials.”

    • Anonymous

      Like who is the client even? And do you bill in quarter hours or tenths? Bill monthly or at close or is this a contingency fee? Where is the jurisdiction? Are you licensed to practice there? Seems forum non conviens for ISIS (and what is the KYC for them as a client — not sure we could take their $).

      Or is this the sort of things that celebrity lawyers who don’t need to work do?

      • Anonymous

        No, this is impact litigation, a common strategy used by policy activists. The point isn’t billing or winning, it’s the process.

        • Anonymous

          Can you translate “impact litigation”? Is it even real? Or are they filing a complaint (which they can’t really even serve) for headline value and then nothing else happens?

          Does this serve anyone but Amal Clooney?

          • Anonymous

            Yes. It serves her client, who wants her story to get attention and wants what she suffered to be called genocide. It serves all victims of Isis whose conflict in the Middle East is too often being treated as just those Muslim tribes bickering again instead of a brutal genocide.

            I wish I were surprised to see so many ladies eager to cut down a smart powerful woman who is, by all reports, an excellent attorney.

          • Anonymous

            I trust it serves the woman she is representing who was kidnapped and held as a s-e-x slave by those insert-angry-term-here as well as the thousands like her.

          • Anonymous

            I think that with a lot of social action litigation, it serves the lawyer and the movement, but doesn’t really serve the client.

            With real litigation, it has to be about the client and your motives shouldn’t conflict with theirs nor should they be subservient to serve a larger goal. The ethics of these can get dicey where the clients are often used by their lawyers.

            I have my doubts. All of what ISIS does is so awfully wrong, but in a way it is wronger than the legal system can fix. And the papers publicize the awfulness to an even broader audience.

          • PEN

            real litigation? impact litigation is “real litigation”! And, yes, ethical issues do arise, as they do in all types of legal practice. And those of us who represent clients in these types of cases work incredibly hard to represent our clients in an ethical manner—it is about the clients, not about us using them.

        • anon associate

          This. Yes, impact litigation is very real and very common. This is a pretty unusual version, but lots of things that you probably don’t recognize as impact litigation are. Often, impact litigation is done to challenge government laws/rulemaking or to force a change in common law. If frequently arises in civil rights litigation, where the goal is to get a change that benefits many people rather than getting redress for a specific individual.

          For example, the Abigail Fisher affirmative action case was impact litigation. The lawyer who approached her and brought that case had been looking to cherry pick a plaintiff to develop a case specifically designed to target one aspect of existing law and make a change.

          Anti-choice activists do it all the time. There’s a reason that 20 week abortion bans are being passed all over the place- they’re designed to be the basis for a direct challenge to Roe v. Wade.

          Environmental groups do a *ton* of impact litigation. The goal sometimes is to force a specific actor to do a clean up or stop an activity, but a lot of the time the goal is also to bring attention to an issue or to challenge an agency rule, or an industry-wide practice. Or force settlement.

          I’d be really interested to see how this plays out.

          • Anonymous

            OK in the US people generally follow the law. Or there are consequences if they don’t. Ultimately, you can lose all of your stuff.

            I don’t think that the isis situation is really a legal problem or subject to a legal resolution. It’s like being a guardian ad litem. There are a lot of things that the US legal system can address but fixing even a GAL client’s problems is beyond its power.

            Make someone’s mom break up with the BF who abuses your child-cilent. Make the parents stop the meth lab. Make dad stop hitting me. Some problems are not legal problems. They are Problems.

          • Anonymous

            What?!? No one thinks this lawsuit is going to single handedly stop Isis. It’s just one tool.

          • anon associate

            Anonymous at 10:43.

            What? Is this a response to my post? Ellen, did you forget to type in your name?

            I can’t predict how effective this lawsuit will be at doing anything about Isis. But it boggles my mind that you can’t see how legal issues play into “the isis situation.”

            Also, anonymous at 10:09, impact litigation IS real litigation. It just is.

          • MidEast Studies

            Actually there is a long history in Islamic religion of using religious courts. It is a very legalistic religion. It’d be neat to see an anti-ISIS case play out in an actual Sharia court, I think, especially if it was packed by progressive imams. ISIS believes that they are following Islamic law (spoiler alert: they’re not)

    • cbackson

      Well, first off, I think that this would be an ICC case, so it would be a matter of international criminal law, not a US civil law action. The ICC and similar tribunals operate under very different jurisdictional rules. I don’t think I’ve seen anything suggesting that there’s been an attempt to file in a US court. That said, there is also a US statute that allows victims of torture to sue state actors in US court that’s been used to strong effect in many cases.

      As to whether or not it matters, conflict-specific international criminal tribunals have done some very important work; the ICC is more of a mixed bag. But they can issue arrest warrants, order assets seized, and take similar actions, and yes, that matters.

        • B

          You should read the book ‘The Butcher’s Trail” about capturing the Bosnian genocide indictees. Really interesting stuff and provides an insight into how you ‘serve’ an arrest warrant on someone indicted on such grave charges.

      • B

        The problem with the ICC here is that it all depends on which country would be ‘referring’ the action. And in any case, you can’t file a case with the ICC, the Prosecutor’s Office has to decide to take it on after determining that the case satisfies a certain number of criteria: gravity, jurisdiction (i.e. is the county even a member state?), complementarity (which goes hand in hand with jurisdiction), among others. That being said, even if all those criteria were met, the OTP wouldn’t take the case on because it just doesn’t have the resources. Though, that’s an entirely different conversation.
        Assuming we’re treating the ISIS complaint/case as a real one and not a publicity thing, the only way it works if there is a tribunal established along the lines of the ICTY and ICTR .

        • Anonymous

          I was thinking that Isis ranks among the unbanked.

          Even if they use a bank, do you think that the bank has Isis fill out a KYC and the foreign equivalent of a W-8 / W-9?

          And think of agency — do you think you can link up a bunch of actors to a pot of money, like there’s an org chart and an incumbancy certificate for this?

          I just don’t think that the dots line up in a way that the legal system requires. I do think we all still get what’s going on here.

          • Anonymous

            Apparently not, since some of us seem to think this is all about Amal wanting publicity for herself.

          • Anonymous

            The odds that ISIS is totally “off the grid” with regarding to the global financial market is very very small. But even if it is as an organization, it has to buy things from the market. Litigation like this can result in orders freezing assets, not just for the group itself but for groups associated who may be working with and supporting ISIS.

        • Anonymous

          Yea, I’m surprised I had to scroll down this far to see this.

          One of the major goals of this kind of action is getting a judgment/order that allows you to freeze assets. It’s one thing to tell a bank “we suspect this account holder is funding war crimes with this account” and another thing altogether to say “here’s a court order requiring you to freeze the accounts listed.”

    • Ellen

      Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Friday’s and this scuba dress. I think it is less expensive b/c these are very popular now. Unfortunateley, I can NOT wear a dress with an exposed Zipper, b/c Frank loves to “test” them. FOOEY on Frank.

      As for the OP, I am also puzzeled about Amal Clooney’s litiegation case. I am not sure about the personal jurisdiction over ISIS under Rule 308, but trust that she is smart enough to figure that out. She and Huma Abedin are doeing such a great job in the face of CONSTANT media attention. I commend both to the HIVE as great example’s for all of us to follow, even tho we are NOT married to men who make the news every time they do anything. I am especialy sympathetic to HUMA b/c her husband (for now) seems to make very bad decision’s. I am so GLAD personaly that I have NOT rushed out to get married b/c who would know that he would do these thing’s? DOUBEL FOOEY! Even Sheketovits was not much more then a drunk, and he never learned to text well anyway. FOOD for thought for the HIVE!

      I wish the HIVE a great weekend! YAY!!!!!

  5. Closet Redux

    Any thoughts on the differences between poshmark and thredup and other consignment sites? I am new to this world and wondering if one is typically higher quality / better service, etc.

    • Beans

      I’ve been very pleased with tradesy. Poshmark’s website seems clunky and not user-friendly. Thredup seems to have lower quality items.

      • Tradesy

        I purchased something via Tradesy that was listed as like new and when I received it the item was in really rough shape. I filed a misrepresentation claim and, to their credit, Tradesy refunded my purchase BUT let the seller relist the item and the description hadn’t changed.

        • Closet Redux

          Yeah, I bought something on ebay recently that was obviously shrunk in the wash. I didn’t bother returning it to the seller because it still sorta fits, i got a good deal, and i figure the refund isn’t worth the hassle of packaging and returning the item then stalking another one. I was hoping some of these more tailored sites wouldn’t have the same issues, but quality control is always hard shopping used sight-unseen, I guess.

    • KT

      I really like Poshmark. I’ve gotten some really nice, brand new and hardly worn merchandise for a song.

      I am anti-Thredup. Their stuff is much more Forever 21/Old Navy, and they give pennies for your items that you sell (I’m still bitter for getting offered $2 for a brand new pair of Cole Haan heels)

    • In House Lobbyist

      I love Poshmark. I buy and sell there all the time. I only use the app and find it pretty easy to find what I like.

  6. heavy-sigh

    I’m sick about this Tulsa shooting and aftermath.

    I feel like tensions are so high right now, and that there is an element really intense fear/suspicion between POC and police that’s fueling a fire. I don’t think it is hate.

    On one hand I think police/LE ARE generally more suspicious/aggressive with POC. After working as prosecutor, I always secretly thought LE was more aggressive than they needed to be–(to all races), but they deal with a lot of difficult folks, too. Justice system admittedly flawed. But the vast majority of interactions between POC and police don’t involve the POC getting shot/killed. I now see this belief (work for alternative school) in my students that LE will ABSOLUTELY shoot them/are affirmatively out to get them.

    Other hand, LE sees protests turning to riots, the random police ambushes, some equally aggressive rhetoric (not the BLM stuff, the us v. them “flip tables” etc). They’re on even high alert when interacting with POC.

    I feel like these interactions b/t LE and POC are so CHARGED right now because both parties are fearful that the other is ready/willing/looking for a chance to harm them, and then interpret every action as potential aggression and we see bad results.

    I don’t think this officer shot in cold blood. I do think she was legitimately [subjectively] fearful. I also don’t think victim was intending to harm her. I think it’s a horrible situation. I feel sick for victim and officer.

    I don’t know how to help things get better. I do not think it is hate, I think it’s fear leading to terrible outcomes.

    • Anonymous

      I think its fear of POC being aggressive. Look at the stats on arrests for drugs. Whites use drugs equal to POC, but POC are arrested and prosecuted at much higher rates. Does that mean we should arrest more white people? Or change the laws? I don’t know.

      • Anonymous

        It means that LEOs patrol high crime urban areas more than middle/upper class suburban areas, which by the numbers means they are exposed to more POCs. This in turn explains part of why POCs are arrested disproportionately for drug use and possession.

        The problem now is that the Ferguson effect is real and LEOs are not patrolling these higher crime urban areas as much as they should be or as much as the law-abiding residents of such areas want them to be out of fear that they will be the next officer on the news.

    • Anonymous

      “But the vast majority of interactions between POC and police don’t involve the POC getting shot/killed.”
      I don’t think “Police don’t kill black people all of the time” is a very good rebuttal to the black lives matter movement. And I don’t think POC fear that they’re “absolutely” going to be shot. I think they fear that there is a chance that they will get shot even if they are unarmed and cooperating with the officer, and that chance is much greater for them than it is for white people, and great enough for them to be very scared of interactions with the police even if they behave perfectly. And based on recent events, I would say those fears are objectively pretty reasonable. The officer in Tulsa may have been fearful, but that fear was based on nothing except the color of Mr. Crutcher’s skin, and that’s racism, plain and simple, and doesn’t make the shooting justified.

      • Anonymous

        I do wonder if gender wasn’t a bit of that. I saw a guy getting dragged around in a CLT parking lot and know I’d have fared a lot worse.

      • heavy-sigh

        Not rebutting movement at all…specifically stated that.

        I’m saying both sides are fearful and suspicious of the other based on worst case scenarios, involving “one skittle from the bowl.”

        I don’t know how many thousands of interactions with police happened on that day. One ended up with shooting. So simplifying statement to “police don’t kill black people all the time” is unfair.

        • Anonymous

          Except one side is fearful because the people supposed to protect them are instead murdering them, and the other side is fearful because they are racist.

          • heavy-sigh

            I don’t think murder is the word.

            I think it’s just unreasonable to say that this lady sought out opportunities to shoot him, or approached him just to have an opportunity to kill or harm him, or took advantage of the situation as an excuse to shoot.

          • Anonymous

            I would agree she did not do the first two, but she definitely did the third.

          • Anonymous

            NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. No one. She is racist. Her racism involves both an unreasonable fear of black men and a level of entitlement to kill them with impunity. Literally no one is saying she woke up that morning and set a goal for the day of finding a black man to kill.

            You need to do some serious learning.

      • Anonymous

        Agreed completely. Also, I expect better from my paid public servants than ordinary citizens. You think just now there is tension? Try centuries of white supremacy. If you don’t believe the root of all of this is racial hatred, you’re ignorant. If you’re teaching black children who are afraid, understand that they have good reason to be. Educate yourself. Read the Warmth of Other Sons. Read everything Ta-Nehsis Coates has written. Read The Other Jim Crow. When you are done, stop flouncing up your hands about how it’s just all so hard for everyone.

        • heavy-sigh

          I never said they didn’t have a reason to be afraid. I work with a population that’s already “in the system” -i freely acknowledge that their interactions with LE and mine are going to be totally different than mine.

          I am saying that I think both LE and POC are in a hard situation with how they relate to the other, where anything either side does is first assumed to be either violent/aggressive (for POC) or racist (for LE). I am really relieved, to NOT be a LE or a POC in Charlotte today, for example–I feel like that interaction starts at stress level 5,000 already.

          One of our kids said that he was just going to “run” if approached by LE. (justified if I’m him–he’s scared that he’s going to get shot). But then, LE sees kid running, and thinks “why are you fleeing? comply.” I don’t want to trade places with either person in this scenario.

    • anon

      How did she not shoot him “in cold blood”? He was unarmed, and had his hands up. I don’t know what else to call it. Stop making excuses.

      • heavy-sigh

        Do you honestly think she thought, “YES! A BLACK GUY. I CAN SHOOT HIM?”

        • Anonymous

          Of course not. But she’s been conditioned to have implicit biases about a black man. To think a black man is a threat. A black man is suspicious. A black man is dangerous.

          I highly recommend you take an online test about Implicit Bias and race. It will be eye opening.I recently attended a conference on Implicit Bias for attorneys, with the Harvard professor who leads this study. I highly recommend it.

          https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/index.jsp

          • Anonymous

            I don’t think anyone is disagreeing with your assertion that she probably felt fear. But that fear was objectively unreasonable.

          • Anonymous

            The fear is rooted in the belief that black men are dangerous. As the white mother of a black son, I am terrified that you think that fear is reasonable.

        • Anonymous

          Of course not. That’s not how most racism works. It really disturbs me that you are teaching kids at risk and seem totally ignorant of this. She fears black men and has internalized a message that she’s entitled to act on the fear with impunity.

        • Anonymous

          No, we really don’t. Black peoples are afraid, with reason. White cops doing the shooting are racist, and calling that racism fear.

        • anon

          No, but that isn’t the point, which has completely gone over your head. Whether you are entitled to use force in self-defense is an objective, not a subjective, standard. We can’t let people go around killing other people willy-nilly because they were unreasonably afraid. ESPECIALLY cops, who are trained professionals!

          • heavy-sigh

            I AM TRYING TO THINK THROUGH HOW TO APPROACH/FIX THE UNREASONABLE FEAR ISSUE.

          • Anonymous

            By calling it racism. Which you seem loathe to do. You don’t solve white supremacy by pretending it’s not a thing. Stop shouting. Listen. Learn.

          • Anon 2

            You can’t fix the unreasonable fear. There will always be white people who don’t like or fear other people simply because they are black.

          • heavy-sigh

            ????? I have never suggested that racism doesn’t exist.

            I just don’t think saying, “Cops are racist. This is because of racism” and then stopping there is helpful? I would love to discuss an action-oriented way to improve things so that every interaction between LE and POC is not this potential disaster.

          • Care

            You can’t fix it for everyone all it once, no. But you can and we must fix it in cops. You fix it through training. You fix it by having cops live in the communities they serve. You promote inclusion in the police force and you get the cops involved in community activities. People don’t unreasonably fear that which they know, they fear people they don’t know and people they see as different. As ridiculous as it is that this has to be taught again post-kindergarten, you teach people that those that don’t look like them are still people.

          • Anonymous

            Maybe, just possibly, by educating cops that black lives matter, by training them on deescalation techniques, and by swiftly prosecuting them when they fail. IE all the solutions blacklivesmatter is advocating for, if you choose to listen.

        • anonshmanon

          I’d like to turn this around. If the victim had his hands up and was unarmed, what do you think IS the reason for her shooting? What is your interpretation of what happened?

          • Anonymous

            THIS. How could someone be more compliant?

            I’m extremely disturbed. We’ve seen a black man killed for telling an officer he had a license for concealed carry and was going for his weapon. We’ve seen many black men killed with their hands up. We’ve seen a black man shot while laying on the ground, having one outside during the course of his employment as a behavioral therapist, trying to protect his client, an autistic man.

            Racism isn’t new. The video is new. The police accountability is new. This has undoubtedly been going on, and no one did anything except victim blame.

            Using lethal force in these situations is not appropriate.

          • Anonymous

            Also why did she shoot to kill? She presumably has decent aim and he wasn’t running. Couldn’t she have shot him in the leg? Even if you believe she was justified in shooting him, I don’t know why anyone thinks it was reasonable for her to shoot to kill.

          • Anonymous

            To Anon at 10:14am (and let me preface this by saying I am a BLM supporter and am absolutely HORRIFIED by Tulsa, so I’m not offering this as a defense of the officer, but instead as an explanation in response to your question of “why shoot to kill?”): My family (the men, anyway, although among my cousins there are women now as well) are almost all law enforcement, and in their training, they are taught to always shoot to kill. Life is not an episode of CSI, and shoot-to-disable is not a thing on your average police force. It sounds horrible, but there are reasons for it.

            First, the level of aim most frontline patrol officers possess (unless they happen to have an independent military/hunting background) is not particularly awesome, and they don’t actually practice shooting all that much – basically, my family members will go to the range a few times in the run-up to their yearly marksmanship test, and then won’t fire a weapon again until the next test. And some forces don’t even do regular marksmanship testing, so officers on those forces are probably shooting even less. They’re far more likely to hit and harm a bystander if they’re trying to pull off some “trick shot” to “disable” a perpetrator, so they’re trained not to try it.

            Also, they’re only supposed to use deadly force when there is imminent likely harm to themselves or others – assuming they’re actually in a situation where deadly force is actually warranted, the LAST thing you want is to “shoot to disable” and miss or hit but fail to sufficiently disable and then either be killed yourself or let someone else be killed. Firing your weapon is supposed to be a last resort, the step you take when literally nothing else is sufficient to protect yourself and the public.

            So, basically, the answer to your question is, she was likely just applying her training, which is likely some version of “when you need to shoot, shoot to kill.” Where she went horribly, heinously, racist-ly wrong was in the application – she was under literally no threat at all at the time she took the shot, she just had a completely irrational fear for her safety that she acted on.

          • Anon at 10:14

            Thanks Anon at 10:44 for the explanation. That makes a lot of sense and is something I did not know.

        • anon associate

          I agree that part of the issue is fear-based (fear that is based on racist implicit bias). HOWEVER, I think that another part of it is disregard for the value of black lives- when you hold someone’s life in less value you’re more prone to simply kill them. Which is what I interpret the BLM message to be- not that cops are out hunting POC (like heavy-sigh’s myopic implication).

          Further, I have a serious problem with the assertion that seems to be floating about with respect to these two recent shootings that cops can kill people just because they’re afraid or the person “posed a threat.” Um, no. You’re a cop. You signed up to be in dangerous situations around threatening people. You were trained for it AND in return you get qualified immunity. I mean, think about it. Cops have the authority to *kill* people without that killing being investigated or their being subject to charges (that’s the presumption). That’s an enormous power and responsibility that the rest of us do not have, and for good reason. They are not given this power/qualified immunity because that makes it easier for the state to kill bad guys. They’re given this power because they are trained to handle it and we give deference to their professional judgment in consideration of the unique risks and threats they face.

          That’s why we have standards-fear must be *objectively reasonable.* If you fear a black man more than a white man when they are doing the same activity, then your fear of the black man has a subjective component. That subjective component is based on race. It is not *objectively reasonable* to be more afraid of a black person than a white person (under the law that would be illegal discrimination), and therefore greater use of force against a black person than a white person is not justified.

          • Anon

            Just to clear up one thing -all police killings are investigated. Even the most blatantly justified ones. You might disagree with the quality of the investigation but every single time an officer fires a weapon there is an investigation, usually conducted by the state’s AG. The officer is placed on administrative leave during this time. The officer also can’t return, even if the shooting is justified, until passing psychological testing and under going counseling. I agree with a lot of what you are saying but I just want to clear up that one mistake.

          • anon associate

            Anon at 11:12, I have no issue with the quality of the investigations. I just meant that they generally do not occur in the manner that we expect to see with cases such as these shootings (grand jury, FBI), or in the way that a shooting by a citizen would be– which was not clear from what I wrote.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, and another officer told her that he had his taser ready and they shot them at the same time. Crazy. I get that it is a hard job and they deal with a lot of crazy people, but this guy had his hands up and she knew he was going to be tased and she still shot him. At best, she’s wildly incompetent and should be in jail.

        • Anonymous

          +1

          Even if it was a “mistake” because she was “afraid”, she still killed someone. A man is dead due to her actions. If I hit a pedestrian with my car and kill him, I go to jail. You can’t go around killing people by accident and justifying it because you’re LE.

          • heavy-sigh

            You do not go to jail for hitting a pedestrian in 98% of situations (provided your’e sober, etc).

            Again, I think she was wrong. I am trying to think through how this problem can be fixed. I don’t know how to fix the unreasonable fear issue.

          • Anonymous

            Maybe, just possibly, by educating cops that black lives matter, by training them on deescalation techniques, and by swiftly prosecuting them when they fail. IE all the solutions blacklivesmatter is advocating for, if you choose to listen.

          • Anonymous

            I think most people actually do go to jail for KILLING (not hitting) a pedestrian, even if they’re sober. She killed a man.

          • MNF

            As an aside – heavy sigh is right, mostly you don’t go to jail for killing a pedestrian absent drugs/alcohol. There’s an interesting Freakonomics podcast all about this called The Perfect Crime that I really recommend.

          • Anonymous

            A driving accident is very different from this situation, though, and intent matters. There’s only one use for a gun, using it requires several steps, and ultimately the user must pull the trigger. It’s not like she was driving around in her gun trying to get to the grocery store to buy some milk and accidentally brushed him with it.

    • Anonymous

      I feel like LE are the social workers of last resort. Like dealing with heroin / pill addicts and their poor children and people who maybe need meds but won’t take them (and the families that have to pick up the pieces). The people who who are elder abusers and the elderly who are frail and alone and often afraid.

      I think it is an awfully hard job. People at least consider social workers to be their allies. LE are probably allies more often but are treated with such hate for doing their jobs.

      I sit at a desk and sometimes get treated poorly. But not as poorly as LE. And with none of the significant dangers they face (hit by drunk drivers while attending to traffic accidents are big where I live, assault, even cleaning up vomit in your cruiser regularly).

    • Anon

      I think the situation becomes extra tricky when you consider the female factor. I haven’t been following the shootings closely (I simply cannot read about more terrible events in this country), but women are always potentially at risk from men, regardless of race, and I disagree with some who have said that it’s immoral to call the police on a male POC if you witness a crime/someone is aggressive to you/etc. Am I advocating that women stalk their neighborhoods looking for any slight infraction so the cops can be brought in? Absolutely not. But I also don’t advocate failing to report a car break-in or sexual harassment out of greater concern for the perpetrator’s welfare than a woman’s; the fact remains that women are always at risk and have greater cause to be afraid of harm done to them than a male would have. In the cases of female cops being the shooters, it becomes hard for me to tell if the fear is related to male violence or if it’s as swayed by race as it appears to be for male cops; I simply don’t know.

      • Anonymous

        Suck it up Sheila. Women cops don’t get a license to mow people down because scared. Scared of black man. Which is racist.

        • Anon

          Yeah, that’s incredibly reductive and not responsive at all to what I wrote. It’s okay though; like most women, I’m used to having my opinions disparaged. I’m also used to being told that it’s not okay to rely on my own instincts when I’m threatened (and then being blamed anyway if a crime is committed against me).

          • Anonymous

            Oh, you weren’t talking about the female cop who did the shooting? My bad then.

          • cbackson

            But your instincts are rooted in your own biases (which we all have). A private citizen doesn’t have any obligation to overcome those. An officer of the law does, whether those biases are rooted in the officer’s gender, race, background, etc. We give law enforcement the right to use deadly force – that is an incredible responsibility, and with that comes a higher level of obligation that private citizens don’t have. This is about a law enforcement officer, and when she puts on the badge, she puts on the mantle of the state’s authority – and that changes things.

            I mean, maybe I’m just way too much of a libertarian, but if the state cannot consistently ensure that, then the legitimacy of the state’s monopoly on force is lost.

      • cbackson

        It’s not tricky. A police officer who has a woman has to be held to the same standards as a police officer who is a man. If she is going to take a gun into her hands on behalf of the people, she has to work to overcome her internal biases, including any biases that might relate to a greater fear of male violence than a male officer would have. Otherwise, she’s not qualified to serve.

      • Anon

        But fear of male violence is very different from irrational, racist fears of black violence. Men commit 84% of violent crime and 99% of the sexual assaults in this country (FBI stats). About 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted by a man, and many more know a friend or family member who has. It is indeed very rational to fear male violence, whereas it is not to fear violence based on race. I am saying that I think it must be harder for women cops to separate the two, not that it’s a free pass for women to be racist.

        • Anonymous

          There are statistics showing black men commit a disproportionate amount of violent crime as well.

          That’s the problem. Statistics don’t tell you anything objective.

      • Anonymous

        Please, women are just as capable of being cops as men are. Let’s not be sexist here.

      • anon

        When I turned on the news this morning, all they were talking about was how the female officer “overreacted” because of “emotion” and “fear.” I don’t recall hearing that rhetoric about the male officers, even in cases where it was pretty clear that the victim posed no actual threat. It will be very interesting to see if a woman is convicted because people automatically assume her response was an emotional, fear-driven overreaction, whereas male officers are given the benefit of the doubt that their responses were legitimate and not the emotional, fear-driven overrreactions that they were.

        • KT

          I watched the video of the shooting and listened to the audio, and she does sound obviously petrified beforehand. I think she absolutely did overreact due to emotion and fear based on what I heard.

          In the male-cop shootings, where there was audio, they sounded angry and aggressive.

          • anon

            Anger is an emotion. Anger and aggression are fear-based responses. Those emotional, fear-based responses can lead to an overreaction. So why weren’t those men equally labeled as having a “fear-based” “emotional” “overreaction”?

        • Meg Murry

          Yes, I have to say that while I am glad that she is actually being charged in his death, part of me finds it interesting that so many white male cops have *not* been charged in other recent incidents, while she was. Don’t get me wrong, I think they *all* should have been charged, not that she shouldn’t have – but it does seem like the “good old boy” system that protected other cops did not extend to her.

          I find this part interesting:
          Shelby “reacted unreasonably” and became “emotionally involved to the point that she overreacted,” the prosecutor’s office said in an affidavit.

          Most of the male cops also were “emotionally involved to the point [they] overreacted” – but they probably would have been described as angry, or over aggressive, not over emotional.

          • Anonymous

            I totally agree. I’m with you that they should all be charged, but I think there’s a huge amount of sexism going into why she was charged and other white male police officers who killed black people were not.

          • Godzilla

            Compiled with the indicted NYPD officer being Asian and not white, the police officer’s being charged tend to be not white males.

          • Anonymous

            This. The fact that she was charged so quickly struck me as gender-motivated.

    • Anonymous

      My husband and I are POC (not African-American, though), and we have fears of LE. He recently was mugged at knife point by 2 attackers on his way to run an errand, in broad daylight, on a weekday. He went into a local store to call the police because they took his phone.

      The police arrived and questioned him extensively, asking if he knew his attackers. Of course, he didn’t. They asked if he was buying drugs. My husband is a drug rehab therapist. He gets drug tested up the wazoo and has never used drugs.

      He was asked where he was going, why he was in the neighborhood, and how come he thinks the attackers approached him. SERIOUSLY? I read the police report. It definitely seems they found my husband suspicious.

      He was a victim, and he scared for his life during the robbery, but he says he does not want to call the police again because there were 5 cops, 1 of him, and they made him feel like the criminal.

      This is why we must say Black Lives Matter.

      • Anonymous

        It’s like that for s*xual assault, too. Even an exam is awful even when it’s a very clear case (not a he said/she said scenario) when a person is in physical pain.

        And I’m not saying it’s LE’s fault. They didn’t make this world. If I were trying to get to the facts, I say that taking everything at face value is a good idea.

        The world is just awful sometimes. And awfulness tends to lead to more awfulness when you’re just trying to get through things.

        • Anonymous

          Wait what? As a white lady, if I get mugged zero cops will ever treat me as a suspect or potential criminal. That’s the point here.

          • Anonymous

            Nah im pretty sure my blondness helps. But please, keep explaining to a POC who has taken the trouble to educate you about what racism in this country looks like that she is wrong about her experience of her own life.

          • SD

            It’s because she’s female AND because she’s white. Both factor into the calculus/implicit bias.

          • anon

            Eh, the time I had to call the cops on my (white blonde woman) abusive ex (white man) the cops acted like we were both to blame. They kept asking him, did she hit you? did she threaten you? what did she do to cause you to react like this? They asked me the same things – what did I do? – like I deserved it. I actually had a neighbor (white woman) call the cops on her BF (white man) and they arrested her because he was the only one with marks on him (she scratched him when he pushed her).

            Ime cops treat everyone like a suspect. They’re really not good with victims. But I 100% believe that a cop’s skepticism of a victim increases dramatically when the victim isn’t white.

    • cbackson

      The police officer was likely fearful, but based on media reports, her fear wasn’t reasonable (and was likely rooted in implicit/unconscious bias against POC – the existence of which is amply demonstrated in scientific literature). Behind the entire concept of a state monopoly on force is an obligation of the state and its actors to operate rationally and without that kind of bias. Because a lot of bias is implicit, people who have the state’s sanction to use force have to be particularly attentive to their own internal biases and have to take those into account in their interactions with the public, particularly where force is involved. If they can’t do that, then they have no business taking out a gun in the name of the people.

      Yes, it’s hard, but if you are going to be authorized to use deadly force in my name, you have to overcome the lesser angels of your nature.

      I’ll note that, where state actors repeatedly show an inability to do that – an inability that starts to seem systemic – then the state’s right to use force starts to seem illegitimate.

      • Anon

        One thing that is often overlooked in these discussions is what information the police officer is operating with at the time of the shooting. I know very little about this case but I heard a media report that a citizen made a 911 call that a man was running away from a vehicle he left in the road and had said it was going to blow up. With that information, someone refusing your command to stop, and returning to the object he previously said was going to blow up is threatening.

        Part of the problem is that society is racist. You might have a black kid walking alone in a predominately white neighborhood. A racist resident sees the kid and immediately thinks he’s trying to break into cars. The same resident see the kid’s cell phone on his hip and thinks it is a gun. That resident calls 911. The police are now responding to a report of an armed black male breaking into cars. In reality it is an unarmed teenager walking down the street. I think citizens should still report suspicious behavior but need to check their biases and only report what they see. Few people would call to say I see a teenager walking down the road. You should check him out.

        Interestingly, I have law enforcement family members that are now working on policy research. One of the proposals is have two groups of law enforcement. Street level patrol would not wear side arms but would still have a shot gun or rifle in the cruiser like they already have. The idea would be if you feel in danger, you retreat rather than shoot. In most cases, letting the “bad guy” get away when you have his/her license plate number is fine. You issue a warrant and get them a little later. This is very controversial though because if the same person then hits someone and kills them we are going to look at the police for why they didn’t stop them.

        The rifle in the car would be for responding to things like an active shooting. Even in those situation, more highly trained swat would be called in.

        I recommend that anyone interested in this topic read some AG reports and witness interviews from actual police shootings. Not these big media ones. I personally know two police officers (not my family members) that have had on duty shootings. One was 100% no questions asked justified. Mentally ill guy doing string of armed robberies started shooting at everything that moved. The second one, was a mentally ill teenager that had a bb gun that looked just like a real gun and wanted death by cop. They tried everything to avoid shooting him and the witness statements and reports are heartbreaking. If it was real gun, those cops likely would have been dead because they waited too long to try to save him. It wasn’t until he was practically on top of one of the cops with the gun in his face that he was ultimately killed.

        Also, look at side by side pictures of bb guns, airsoft guns and real guns. 90% of people can’t tell the difference with all the time in the world to stare at it online. Now imagine someone pointing it at you while running at you.

        Tamir Rice’s situation was like that. There was a lot the cops there did wrong. They should have established a perimeter, not just rolled up and shot. They should have engaged him. Given him a chance to drop the weapon so long as he did not have it pointed at anyone.

        The problem is so many decisions will always be subjective and we base our decisions on our fear. I don’t know how to stop people from being more afraid of black people than white people. That really is the first thing that has to change.

      • purplesneakers

        These are all excellent points! Relatedly, I remember a post by a veteran pointing out that they could not just go around shooting people IN A WAR ZONE without first giving several warnings and making their plan to shoot VERY clear. That police can just shoot people of color willy-nilly and then claim they ‘feared for their lives’ is BS.

    • Anon

      [Kat’s note 11:50 — we are deleting this comment but in order to preserve the comments ABOUT this comment I’m leaving this placeholder in here. I hate making these kind of judgment calls about comments; apologies if I am making the wrong one by deleting the comment. ]

      [Kat’s note 7:35PM – just another note to clarify: this comment never hit the moderation queue in the first instance; it was cleared automatically by our spam filter.]

      • Anonymous

        WOW. Kat, what are you doing? This is blatant racism. We get moderated for using common words but this goes through? Delete it. Now. If we wanted ATL level comments we would be there.

        • Anon

          Why? People aren’t allowed to have opinions differing from yours? You don’t think the black community has created problems? You REALLY think they can’t get ahead – they have public education just like anyone else but if you drop out, have 3 babies by age 18 and start dealing for money – that’s bc your ancestors were slaves?!

          • SD

            Your opinion is absolutely vile and racist. You’re allowed to have it, and we’re all allowed to be utterly disgusted with you. I am white, and I am enraged and heartbroken on the behalf of black men and women who have to encounter people like you.
            However, I am heartened to see that no one else on this site seems to share your repugnant worldview, so at least there’s that.

            And YES historical discrimination still has ramifications in communities today. OF COURSE IT DOES. You are being willfully ignorant in order to feel superior and avoid empathy. For shame.

          • Anonymous

            There is an insane amount of empirical research supporting the fact that black communities in this country are prosecuted at disproportionate rates for offenses committed in equal measure among the races (see, e.g., drug prosecutions). There is ample evidence that the 100-to-1 sentencing disparity for crack and powder cocaine was designed to punish black offenders and give a pass to white offenders. There is ample evidence that majority black schools get the worst teachers and the worst resources and many of those kids are never able to overcome the educational disadvantage of their public education.

            Plus, there’s the fact that you think it’s fair to kill a man because he looks like some other people who have committed crimes.

          • Anonymous

            Where do you even begin with this? “They have public education like everyone else.” This is a lie, you are a bigot.

          • cbackson

            People are allowed to have different opinions, even opinions that are disgusting, ignorant, and racist, for example. Kat, as the owner of a private former, is not obligated to allow those opinions to take up space in her community.

          • Anonymous

            ” they have public education just like anyone else”

            Hahahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahhaha.

            OMG. Are you even real right now?

            I could be a decent, useful contributor to this conversation by linking you to any of the dozens of studies and articles showing that children of color (and especially black and Hispanic children) are significantly more likely to be heavily concentrated in the poorest, worst school districts, but honestly, you could find that in Google if you were actually interested in the state of public education in this country, so instead I’m just going to be over here, laughing that you even thought that was a non-ridiculous thing to type.

          • Anon

            Laugh all you want but my point is right – there IS public education available from which you CAN get a high school degree. Where did I say that the quality of education is what you’d get in Bethesda or the wealthy NY suburbs? But they can’t even manage to attend the schools they have and graduate; you need at least a high school degree from someplace – with whatever quality of education – to move forward and when you can’t even take advantage of the free one provided to you, you end up dealing for a living thus helping the reputation of your already stellar community.

          • all about eevee

            This is so offensive. I’m shocked this is happening on this particular website.

          • An.on

            Not sure if you’re the original Anon w/ the redacted statement but, many poor black people entrenched in intergenerational poverty don’t have much hope for a better tomorrow, so they don’t plan ahead.

            Also, people say poor black folks should get an educaation and jobs. When middle class black people get their education and jobs, their schooling and jobs are considered illegitimate because of affirmative action. When black people ask for fair treatment in shopping, dining, etc., we are told to create our own stores and restaurants. When we follow that advice and create our own institutions such as Ebony magazine or BET (neither are black-owned today), we are called racists. There is no way a black person can make the right choices when someone has this mentality.

        • Toni

          Anonymous at 10:15. there is an overwhelming population that is in agreement with Anon at 10:12. I am not one of them, but censoring the commentary is not the answer to changing the dialogue. You could cry troll, but the reality is that there is a population that needs education, like others are providing. Your desire to silence and hide these opinions has the potential to further fan the racist, bigoted, uninformed flame.

        • Ugh

          Actually, it is very important that we argue against views like this. Not just block these posts. Simply denying and deleting posts like this that are clearly racist, mis-informed etc… is what led to the Trump movement, which is as dangerous as they come. We must engage and dispute these posts calmly, rationally, with data and personal examples.

          Chances are high that this poster lives in an isolated, conservative community. Until we learn empathy, there is little chance for progress.

          So we must be thoughtful, post fact, encourage real tangible directions for change.

          • Anonymous

            I agree, but it can be exhausting, especially if someone shares a personal example and gets attacked by someone not wanting to engage. Any post making blanket statements about the black community v. Koreans is not wanting to engage, IMO.

          • Anonymous

            To the poster of… “No. No it didn’t…”

            So… you are a liberal living in an socioeconomically diverse community, with a large proportion of African Americans?

      • cbackson

        If you’re going to make this kind of statement, I’m going to ask you to have the courage to put your name to it.

        And if you’re a Christian, I’m going to ask you to scrutinize your heart to determine if you could face your savior in good conscience right now.

      • Anonymous

        This is disgusting. I absolutely — ABSOLUTELY — think that a cop is supposed to evaluate a situation and realize this man has his HANDS IN THE AIR before pulling the trigger. And I absolutely do not think that the actions of “the black community” for the last 50+ years is justification for killing a human being.

        Your argument is that police are reasonable in killing human beings who present no current danger on the basis of your perception of how 37M+ black Americans collectively act? You need to think that through again.

        • Killer Kitten Heels

          The thing I love about people like this poster is, when, for example, the Eric Garner thing happened, there was so much “oh, if he’d only just complied, obviously if black people just comply with police this would stop happening, just put your hands up when you’re told, what’s the big deal,” and now, when the latest crop of videos are of men complying *and getting shot anyway* now it’s become “oh, but there’s a whole history there, what do you expect?” Just keep moving those goalposts, folks.

      • anon associate

        “I realize you aren’t supposed to think of ppl as groups but as individuals but when you have 7 seconds to figure out a situation, you aren’t thinking ”

        Please, no. You’ve got to be kidding. When you are AUTHORIZED BY THE STATE TO USE DEADLY FORCE-without consequence- you have an obligation AT ALL TIMES to “think.” FFS. Haven’t you ever heard the phrase “with great power comes great responsibility”? If you can’t control yourself, you can’t be a cop. If you lose your ability to “think” in a dangerous situation, you no longer enjoy qualified immunity.

        “You think – as a whole, bad part of town, big dude acting odd and not listening, I know how this will go down, I have to protect myself.

        No, you *don’t* know how ‘it’s going to go down.’ Also, cops are *required* to go into these situations. You cannot possibly argue that it is permissible for the state to send their agents into “dangerous neighborhoods” while also saying that shooting is justifiable because the cops are in dangerous neighborhoods. You’re basically saying it’s ok for the state to place its agents in close proximity to “dangerous people” and give them permission to kill them because they’re in proximity to them. See how f’ed up that is?

        Also, dear god you’re a despicable person. Cbackson was nicer about it than I am.

      • Anonymous

        WOW. How did this get through moderation? Talk about blatant racism and victim blaming.

        I’m not even going to bother refuting someone who spouts conclusions about the ENTIRE black community and slavery.

        I will say one thing. You do realize many African-Americans are immigrants, right? Not all of them were enslaved, at least not in the US.

        To any African-Americans reading this, I’m sorry. I support you, and I’m sorry you had to read this, and I’m sorry there are seemingly educated racists on here. Signed, a WOC who believes Black Lives Matter

        • Anonymous

          I agree with your substance of your point, but just a note about moderation since there are so many “how did this get through moderation?” comments. A person is not reading and approving/disapproving every comment posted here. A computer is flagging comments with certain words and those comments go to a queue to be approved or disapproved by a human. A hateful, racist comment like this will post automatically (without being approved by a person) if it doesn’t have one of those specific words.

      • Sarabeth

        I just contacted Kat to ask her to take down this comment, and I would urge other commenters who are equally appalled to do the same. Engaging with this bigot is clearly going to be unproductive.

        • ck

          But we all need the practice! Because many (most?) of us are not vocal enough, and are not very good in constructive debate.

          Check Kat’s Weekly News Update link to the Harvard business reviews article on how to talk to people about different political views.

          We are not going to change people’s minds or make progress unless we re-assess how to engage people of differing views.

          Use intelligence, logic, EVIDENCE, and true stories.

    • Emmer

      Fortunately, the future of law enforcement and POC relations in this country does not rest solely in your hands. A lot of very smart people have thought about this, researched it, and have published a lot over the past 3 or so years. And you can read much of it via a simple Google search. Here is a very simple introduction to some basic ideas: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/report/2014/12/18/103578/4-ideas-that-could-begin-to-reform-the-criminal-justice-system-and-improve-police-community-relations/.

      What YOU should be focusing on is how to recognize and challenge your own implicit biases and start listening to POCs, so that you can be a part of the cultural shift that needs to happen to end societal and institutional racism.

  7. Anonymous

    Do you like scuba dresses? I think the material looks kind of cheap and definitely not work appropriate. I also wonder if its hot.

    I also think this silhouette is played out. I see it in every possible iteration at Burlington Coat Factory-and no offense to the store, because I shop there-but every $30 dress designer does the hourglass figure with the black sides. I’ve seen it in animal print, black, red, with lace, white, beige, pink, stripes…ENOUGH.

    • Anonymous

      It reads very “weather girl on TV” to me. If being sexy isn’t in your job description, I wouldn’t wear it.

    • KT

      You will pry black-sides/illusion dresses out of my cold, dead hands. I’m a round plus-size girl, and they fake me looking bombshell-esque instead!

      i.e. I have this Kiyonna dress in 3 colors. http://amzn.to/2cXb3q8

  8. Anonymous

    Any tips for writing my end of year performance review. It’s my first year as an in house attorney and I’m not sure what the best tactic is. Highlight lots of things? Go more into depth on a few accomplishments?

    • Coach Laura

      Yes, highlight lots of things (because you’re new) and go in depth on accomplishments. Do you have a job description or a written set of goals that were given to you when you started? If so, mirror your response to those goals. If you don’t have a description or goals, write out what you think the goals should be (e.g. in house client service level, input on weighty matters a, b and c, reduction/elimination of legal matters needing litigation, writing policy/procedures, whatever) and link what you’ve done in that year to the achievement of those goals. Look back at your emails, calendar etc to see what you did during the year and note minor and major accomplishments. (It’s easy to forget – I like to keep a running log of “kudos” and good outcomes that might be hard to remember come review time.)

  9. Anon

    Dumb rant: is anyone else getting tired of people saying “folks” all the time to address a group of people? I get that it’s more inclusive than “you guys,” blah blah blah, but it is getting so annoying to hear “hey folks!” or “let’s talk to those folks” instead of using the word “people” as appropriate (or women, or guys, or whatever). This fake folksy crap is not professional and it’s annoying. Am I the only one bothered by this? And yes, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

    • nan

      Completely agree. Or you could be like one of my colleagues and all everyone “cats.” It’s so very beatnik.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t think “folks” is a PC replacement for “guys.” The people I know who say it are mostly older white men. So I don’t think they’re trying to sound fake folksy, I think they’re just using a word that was popular and common when they were younger.

      • Anon

        Yeah, that’s how it used to be, but not anymore. There are PC language guides that recommend saying folks whenever you are addressing a group of people so as not to exclude anyone’s personal identity. I could handle it when it was the rare older white guy who could pull it off, but this is literally EVERYWHERE now at my graduate school. I hear it >10 times per day every day.

      • REA

        NJ born and bred here. I naturally say “guys”. I suppress it for conference calls and switch to “folks”. “Guys” comes off as crass and tone deaf to a lot of folks (I hope your eye twitched). “People” sounds eye rolling. “Why don’t you talk to your people about the business points, and get back to me?” Yuck

        • Anon

          “Why don’t you talk to your team” would be the better alternative anyway; “why don’t you talk to your folks” almost sounds like you want the other person to go talk to their parents.

          • REA

            I think that’s one alternative, but OP is fighting a losing battle. I hear “folks” all the time from my clients (major banks with offices all over the country). It’s super common in transactional practice.

      • Educator

        I use “folks” with my students to be inclusive. Sorry it’s annoying, but I like to model inclusivity. I occasionally have students ask me why I use that phrase, and it makes them think when they hear my rationale.

        • MKB

          Ditto. Inclusivity takes work, but it’s worthwhile even if the phrase sounds odd to some people.

    • Anonymous

      We say y’all.

      When I was in NJ, it was “yous guys” or sometimes “guys”

      • Anonymous

        Often it’s just “yous”

        Guys in the NE US is gender-neutral, like in Latin

      • Anonymous

        I was hyper-conscious about this on Mon. because I gave a presentation and said “you guys” when soliciting feedback. “What do you guys think”. It was a mixed crowd, and although we are in Boston, I felt it was unprofessional…but its just what comes out.

        When I lived in the South, we said “y’all”.

        I try to say “you” plural. “What do you think?” I would be unlikely to use “folks” because it sounds very artificial. “You guys” just flows right out.

    • Cb

      I am guilty of this but I don’t have a great alternative. When I walk into my office or send an email to a group, ‘Hi folks’ works as a informal greeting. ‘Hi people’ would be awkward and ‘Hi all’ is a bit stilted.

      • Anonymous

        In person, “good morning everyone.”

        In writing, “hi all/everyone.”

      • anon

        I use “Team” or just “All” in email but I say “hey folks” informally in person. Sometimes “hey kids” or “hey gang” depending on audience. I agree “hey people” is super weird. Does anyone actually say that?

        • Cb

          I use Hi All when I’m emailing students, but definitely do folks with colleagues. I get made fun of for my American linguistic quirks anyways – Cb, would you like to “reach out” to them?

    • Gail the Goldfish

      Yea, the south fixed the plural you problem for you with y’all. We just need the rest of the country to stop thinking it makes us sound like hicks.

      • D. Meagle

        This. I am a born and bred new yorker who went to grad school in the south. Everyone need to get on board with y’all. It works!

    • Anonymous

      What drives me crazy is a variation on this, when people say it in this smug, condescending way, like “Time to pay attention to [X issue], folks.” And it can be truly any issue – “Bikes are on the road too, folks.” “New York City is going to be underwater soon, folks.” “Register to vote, folks.” It’s so, so smug, like the writer has this gem of wisdom that everyone else is too ignorant to pay attention to.

    • Ann

      I use “folks” often, not meaning to be gender-neutral, just because it is a word I was raised with. I do also use “guys” to refer to a mixed group. I’m in my early-20s and am generally very PC, for reference.

    • Anonymous BigLaw Associate

      I hate it, but I say it to sound more like those I have to work with. Folks and y’all. Although I don’t mind y’all-it is just not something I would naturally say.

  10. Judith & Charles

    I know quite a few of you are fans of the brand. Do they ever do sales, even just 10%? I live in a city with a store so open to either in store or online purchases. I’m looking at a big ticket item. It fits all my criteria, so I’m definitely going to buy it, I just don’t know whether to pull the trigger now or wait.

    • TO Lawyer

      They occasionally do sales at the end of a season but it’s lucky sizes only. If you really love something, I would recommend buying it because they do sell out of some of the more popular items.

  11. Startup?

    I am meeting with the head of a new startup again (it’s our second meeting) and it sounds like a really interesting idea and opportunity. However, is there anything that I should be wary of? I know it’s risky, but I’m unhappy in my current position and ready to make a move anyways. Has anyone else done this and been happier?

    • SD

      Be wary and strategic. What round of funding are they in? I’ve done this and been screwed over (more than once) and have an extremely choppy resume as a result. If you don’t know and understand the startup space, then you’re kind of going in blind. “Interesting idea and opportunity” is NOT sufficient. Do your research and find someone who is very informed, whose opinion you trust, and get their take on: the start up, the market space, the founding team, the investors, the role and responsibilities. Also, if they’re trying to get you to take a salary cut in exchange for “equity,” absolutely, 100% don’t take it. They should pay you market rate AND give you equity, not one or the other, depending on stage.
      If you know any engineers who have been around the block a few times, they’re generally pretty tapped in.
      Are you in NYC by any chance? Do you want to reveal more details about the company and the opportunity? Where are you currently in your career, and what are you hoping to accomplish with this move?

      • Meg March

        +1.

        Also, SD touched on this, but it bears emphasizing: Equity is worth 0 dollars. Zero. Yes, this start up may make it big, and you cash out and it’s wonderful, but equity is a bonus for doing that. You have to be willing to take the job at the salary agreed on, with no expectation of any equity bonus.

      • Anonymous

        +1

        Salary is what they pay you for your work.

        Equity is the additional benefit you get for working at a start up which has an inherent risk of failure and job loss.

      • OP

        This is great feedback. I’m in middle management and stuck in a rut. I’m hoping to gain more experience in training – as in training clients on this new software and leading a team on that. It’s not NYC but not SV either. Is it rude to ask about investors? How should I phrase that? The founder is well known and successful, but this is a departure from what they usually do. I am embarrassed to say that I don’t know about the funding and this is totally new for me. I do have a friend who is familiar with the environment so I’ll send them specifics, as well. Thank you for the points about equity – I’m hoping that this meeting will get into benefits and salary. I’m not willing to take a big pay cut, but it’s ok if this fails and I have to move on.

        • Anonymous

          Wait what? Stop right there. Ask yourself why you are concerned it might be rude to get the information you need to know if you’ll get paid.

        • SD

          No, funding is very public. Look up the company on crunchbase and angellist. Ask which round they’re on, ask how much, ask who their investors are, and then go home and read about those investors. Ask who their advisors are, who’s on their board. Maybe these are like… 3rd interview questions, like “I’m pretty sure I’m going to get the offer, so now I’m going to grill you on why I should take it” questions. This is NOT rude, and if they hesitate or balk with the conversation topic at all, that’s sketchy. This is very very very basic due diligence and even like cocktail party conversation in the start up world (I’m in NYC so I suppose there’s a small chance there’s a cultural difference in your city). You should ask about funding before you ask about salary/equity, which is generally a conversation that happens when you’re getting the offer.

          Do you mind if I ask what “space” the start up is in? AdTech, FinTech, etc etc?

          WHY is the founder well known and successful? A lot of these types are like the tech version of socialites, and just because they’re well known doesn’t mean it’s for reasons that lead to good management and job security. But sometimes it does. And if it works out, having your name attached to theirs is something you can really ride on career-wise.

          I’d be happy to look at the job description and company for you and poke around if you’re comfortable… not sure how to do that privately on this forum since I don’t think there are PMs??

          FWIW, I started my career as employee #80 at a company that’s near IPO’ing now with like 600+ people, and then got scr*wed over by a couple of earlier stage start ups, and now I’m in a highly technical field and start ups are a small portion of our clients. So, I’m young but been around the block a bit, and I want to keep people from making the mistakes I did that set my career back a couple of years.

          • Meg March

            To do this privately, you would post an anonymous email– just set up “SDcorpore**e” at whatever, and then she could email you.

        • Anon

          Not rude to ask about the investors.. IMO, a look at Crunchbase before asking would yield better results/deeper questions.
          And if you have an offer,not rude to ask about the runway and things like that.
          FWIW, i am early career, SV, and just moving to a start-up. But DH has been in startups his entire career (~9years) and I’ve been his unpaid researcher for the past few years :P
          If you’d like to share details, happy to do some research for you.

    • LAnon

      If it wasn’t covered in the first meeting, try to focus a lot of the conversation on the CEOs track record. There is a saying among investors to “bet on the jockey, not the horse”. It will be much less risky to join a start-up with an experienced CEO who has taken at least one company to a successful exit – either acquisition or IPO. Also, if not covered in the first meeting, ask about the funding situation. If the CEO is self-funding, bootstrapping, has only seed money, or only friends and family investors, it will be much more risky than a company with real investors. Overall, there is a lot more that goes into start-up success or failure than the idea being good.

      All that being said, likely the worst case scenario is that the company collapses and you lose your job. If you’re in a situation where you can’t miss paychecks while you look for a new job or you’d have to move for the opportunity, that should factor into your evaluation.

    • Emily L

      This has kind of already been said, but ask them how much “runway” they have. This means how long the startup’s money will last. I know a guy who unfortunately did not have this information before taking a job. He got laid off after 5 months when that startup straight ran out of money and couldn’t raise more.

  12. Anon

    My mother-in-law lives in a middle-income country and finally got high-speed internet (after losing her dial-up connection last year). She loves dance, opera, and cultural events; does anyone have recommendations for videos that I can send to her that would be high-quality and also help introduce her to the world of YouTube? I know there are some quality ballet productions out there and similar, but tips on any particularly great ones would be amazing. I think she’s a tad overwhelmed with trying her first Google search and I figured some direct links might be more pleasant.

  13. Freezer Meals

    I’ve got a weekend day blocked off to make some freezer meals and baked goods to hopefully help out when my baby comes in a month. Any suggestions for tried and true recipes? I generally eat healthy as in minimal processed food, no allergies or aversions. TIA!

    • Anonymous

      I did the whole pinterest “freezer dump bags for a month of meals”, and it was a failure. Many of the bagged meals got freezer burn. Not sure what I did wrong…

      • Cookie

        I’ve had the freezer burn problem as well. I use the name brand freezer bags and push out all the air, so what am I doing wrong? Frozen food lasts a few weeks at best for me before it gets freezer burnt and gross.

        • the gold digger

          I double bag, even in freezer bags. You also might want to consider buying a bunch of tupperware/rubbermaid containers – those work very well for prepared foods in the freezer.

    • CountC

      I am a fan of making a huge dish of sweet potato, black bean, corn, goat cheese, and spinach enchiladas with tomatillo sauce. It freezes well, is mostly healthy (I use corn tortillas, but you can use whatever you prefer), and is tasty and filling.

      I don’t have a recipe for the filling really. I toss the filling in a little bit of olive oil and Sazon seasoning and then chuck it in.

      • Meg March

        How do you freeze it? In single-serving tupperware? In a casserole pan, ready to put in the over for reheating? Aluminum foil? ALL THE DETAILS, please?

        • CountC

          I freeze it in tupperware in portions that amount to two to three servings. I let it thaw in the fridge for a day or so and then I have several meals :) I microwave to reheat versus oven because I want to EAT ALL THE THINGS and don’t like waiting that long!

          I tend to make some extra tomatillo sauce to freeze also and use that on the reheated portions for a little extra moisture. Microwaving to reheat on partial power is best.

        • CountC

          I don’t follow a recipe, but this one looks like it would be adaptable and is close to what I do!

          https://glutenfreegoddess.blogspot.com/2015/04/sweet-potato-black-bean-enchiladas.html

          Here’s a sauce recipe that you can follow: http://www.marthastewart.com/340845/tomatillo-enchilada-sauce (although I kind of make up my own based on what I have around and what I remembered at the store).

          I cut up two good sized sweet potatoes into 1/2″ cubes and toss that with a can of rinsed black beans, and either defrosted frozen corn or boiled corn off the cob (depending on the season, 2 or ears if you are going that way, I just eyeball if using the frozen corn – maybe a cup?). I toss with olive oil and Sazon seasoning, although after looking at that recipe I am going to start adding lime juice and garlic!

          I grease up a glass baking dish and start with a light layer of the enchilada sauce, then a layer of corn tortillas, then the filling sprinkled with a bit of goat cheese, and repeat that until I get to the top. I put more sauce on top, but don’t put the goat cheese on the top top until serving. Sometimes I have too much filling from eyeballing, so I save it and just eat the filling after microwaving it to make the sweet potatoes soft!

          It’s a really easy meal and adaptable to your tastes!

          • Fishie

            So you’re sort of making enchilada lasagna, instead of rolling individual enchiladas? If that’s the case, then I love it! (Even if you’re rolling individual enchiladas, it sounds pretty damn delicious.) Thank you!

      • Meg Murry

        That does sound delicious, but I might suggest considering making it burritos instead of enchiladas (or make the filling and do half as enchiladas and half as burritos), and individually wrapping the burritos in plastic wrap and/or foil before putting in a freezer bag. Burritos are a lot easier to reheat and eat one handed than enchiladas, which require eating at a table with a fork and preferably both hands free (and I still usually manage to get it on myself).

        Will you be needing to feed a lot of company once the baby arrives, or are you mostly looking to feed yourself and your spouse? If only the two of you, I’d suggest doing a lot more freezing of already cooked food in individual servings for the early days, as opposed to things like casseroles in a glass baking pan that have to be defrosted and then baked for a while and then served up with real dishes.

        We do a lot of food in tortillas, so I like to make burrito variations – chicken, bean, breakfast, etc.

        Also, can you think about some of your favorite meals and just pre-make the parts that take the longest? For instance, cook a bunch of chicken and shred it, and then you can toss it on a salad in a bag.

        They aren’t necessarily the most space efficient, but freezing things like soups or steel cut oatmeal in mason jars (use straight sided wide mouth ones, and leave head space for expansion) is convenient because then you can reheat and eat right out of the glass jar.

        America’s Test Kitchen’s “The Make Ahead Cook” has a lot of good tips on freezer storage, and some good recipes. I’m not sure it’s worth buying new, but it is worth a library checkout.

    • Anon in NYC

      Gwyneth Paltrow’s 5 spice muffins and banana date muffins from her It’s All Good cookbook. They both freeze well.

      Smitten Kitchen’s slow cooker black bean ragout. In my slow cooker, it takes about 5 hours on high. I often freeze it in 14.5 oz bags, so when I need a can of black beans I can just pull one out and use it.

    • CKB

      I regularly freeze spaghetti sauce, BBQ pulled pork and chicken, taco meat, lasagna and chili for family meals, homemade muffins for snacks, and leftovers for work lunches.

      Small pieces of food (rice, chopped veggies, for example) in my experience freeze less well and become freezer burned sooner unless covered by sauce, probably because they have so much surface area exposed to the cold air.

    • anon a mouse

      Budget bytes has a recipe for freezer breakfast sandwiches that are really good. I did better with freezing large trays of things – lasagna, enchiladas, etc – for after baby came. I don’t mind eating the same thing for days in a row and it was nice to have them ready to pop in the oven. If you wanted to do smaller portions, you could buy the smaller disposable foil pans. I covered in saran wrap (twice) and then foil on top.

      The suggestion for taco meat is also really good. I went ahead and browned 4 batches of meat – 2 with Mexican spices, 2 Italian, that then could be used as the basis for a quick dinner, like crockpot spaghetti.

    • Anon

      My favorite thing to freeze for future is cookie dough. I simply scoop the dough into balls and pop them in a freezer bag. It’s great because you can then heat up 1-2 cookies at a time when you want a small treat (or, ahem, eat a small piece of raw dough directly from the bag).

      • Meg Murry

        Ooh, yes, if you are planning to BF, freeze oatmeal cookies or cookie dough! You can make one of the “lactation cookie” recipes, or you can get probably 90% of the benefits just with regular oatmeal cookies. Plus, oatmeal cookies with raisins are are oats, eggs and fruit, so that counts as a healthy-ish breakfast, right? :-)

    • In House Lobbyist

      I like to cook taco meat and save it in individual or even muffin tins. A muffin tin is one serving so it is easy to just make a taco or nachos for one. I also do a lot of chili, enchiladas (fully cooked so just reheat), and package chicken in marinades. I follow Money Saving Mom for a lot of her freezer meals. I also make muffins – just cook and wrap individually in foil and then put in larger freezer bag. I also make lasagna in loaf pans so it is easier make for a smaller crowd. I made sloppy joes this weekend from my freezer stash – just had to add water and simmer.

  14. vendredi

    I would look for specific company’s channels:

    For shorter clips/interviews, try NYCB’s channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/newyorkcityballet

    Or if you want full length ballets, you can show her how to search “Bolshoi Raymonda full”:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPxvmRYBtU

    Giselle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqulznsnejM

    Don Quixote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4sgASUKH_k

    For opera, a Pavarotti concert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vciHfYvHhzE

  15. PEN

    Navy blue pants with white polka dots. Can I only wear white or navy tops with them?

    • CountC

      Nope! I would wear yellow/mustard, grey, teal, emerald green, coral, burgundy/wine, camel . . . really most colors!

      • Anonymous

        love navy with mustard or burgundy – looks much fresher than with red and very appropriate for fall.

    • anon

      I love navy and white with reds. I don’t think it looks too 4th of July or nautical if it’s done right. I’d wear those pants with a shell in a darker red, a white blazer or cardigan, and red/burgundy shoes. Or a white shell with a burgundy sweater jacket for fall, burgundy shoes.

    • MKB

      As long as it’s not a very dark navy, navy and black are totally acceptable too. I’d probably wear with a solid black blouse and shoes that have some color (likely burgundy, since that’s how I roll).

  16. Panicked

    I accepted a great new job that is an opportunity to make more money and learn new skills. But as soon as I resigned from my current job (which there is nothing really wrong with, just not challenging me, but offers lots of flexibility for my family) I felt totally overwhelmed by fear: What if I am not good enough? What if it is too much work and I don’t have the chance to enjoy my family or relax? What if I have made a terrible mistake in leaving a job that gave me zero stress in my life? How do I cope before the job starts so that I am not miserable for weeks? Has anyone gone through this? Good news from the other side?

    • Shots. Shots. Shots.

      You rang? Your fear is totally common. But it’s also nonsense. You thought this through. You made the best decision possible. Now you just gotta let go and embrace it. And I am EXCELLENT at letting go. Tonight, after your kids are asleep, instead of an insipid fearful glass of Santa Margarita Pinot Grigio, go bold. Go big. Go shots. Just for one night, live with the knowledge that you are awesome, and that karaoke in your living room is an amazing life choice too.

    • nona

      This is soooooo normal (or at least I went through it as well). You live through it. You accept you are going to feel dumb (for not knowing how things work in the new place) and annoying (because you keep asking questions about how things work in the new place). And you ride it out. Recognize that things are going to be weird for a while and embrace the fact that you are the new kid (ask questions!) and you’ll have to prove yourself a bit.

      It’ll be fine.

    • ChiLaw

      Oh I’ve gone through this even accepting GREAT jobs to leave legitimately not-great jobs. I think it’s very normal.

      Change is stressful! Sometimes it actually helps me to think out the worst-case (reasonable) scenario or answers to your questions.

      What if I am not good enough? Well, they evaluated your experience and decided you were, and you know you’ve risen to the occasion in challenging situations before [remind yourself of examples!], but if you’re struggling you can [take continuing ed courses? ask for help? rely on mentors and your network?] until you get your feet under you.

      What if I have made a terrible mistake? If you have (I don’t think you have) it’s nothing that can’t be repaired. Let’s say (unrealistically!) everyone turns out to be horrible, mean people, and you’re terrible at your job. You can quit! You can probably even build up a nice cushion to help that transfer now that you’re making more money. In a year when you’re interviewing you could say “I really loved OldJob and moved to NewJob for a challenge, but I’ve learned it isn’t a good fit for me for Reasons.” It’ll suck but it won’t be career ending. Your family has your back and would support you if this has to happen (I don’t think it will). Less drastically, if you end up having somewhat more significant work commitments, you can outsource some of your home commitments with the extra money you’re earning — less time cleaning = more time with family, or whatever.

      They hired you because they want you to work there and think you’ll be an asset! Don’t second guess them! You’re gonna do great!

  17. Anon

    How is everyone starting a start-up these days?

    Any ladies in that space who can explain how it works? I know guys (no women oddly) who have MBAs from top level schools, they got jobs as Associates at the top IB firms upon graduation, and more than 1 of them has quit within 1-2 yrs to start their own start up. We’re not talking designing something in the tech space that they hope gets sold to IBM or Microsoft or something. We’re talking selling ordinary “products” — don’t want to say what exactly but think things like bandages or socks or hospital gowns whatever; things we already have on the market for pennies on the dollar but they are making them more “interesting” or colorful or whatever. How exactly do you make this work in places like NYC that are so high COL? I know one guy started off with a campaign to raise money from friends and fam and got like 10-13k. Now he says he has investors and is “promising” them a 6% return — but I don’t know what that means. Is that the kind of funding where you can draw out a similar salary to what you had at Goldman and use the rest for the business and STILL generate 6%? And how can you predict what you’ll generate for a product you’re selling on ebay, going to conventions to try to get people in the medical community interested etc.

    Am I missing something as I’ve been slaving away for an employer for 12+ yrs? Or is this something you can only do if you have family money (or a tremendous idea which isn’t the case here).

    • SD

      It’s a bubble, and from what I’ve seen, generally it involves selling an idea before anything actually exists, and hoping that the thing comes to exist before the whole house of cards falls apart. Theranos is the highest profile example of this, but a lot of what you’re seeing is essentially that on a much much smaller scale. Read up on that, you’ll understand. People are growing wise and the bubble will burst soon. Also, yeah, the people involved very often have family money so they can prop up the illusion longer or indefinitely.

      • Anon

        Maybe I don’t have the right risk tolerance (or family money) for this — but something about “promising” a 6% return seems risky. If they’ve just indicated they’re looking to return 6%, that’s one thing – bc just as with the market, you could be looking for a 6% return one yr and get 1%. But if there are actual “promises” — i.e. contractual guarantees of returns — the lawyer in me is thinking, aren’t you asking for a securities litigation if/when it doesn’t come to fruition? I mean how can one be so confident that hospitals which have bought for 100s of yrs the ugly gowns costing probably 5 cents/each are suddenly going to give you a contract for “designer” gowns costing $20/each bc they are so nice. I mean health systems have budgets and purchasing agreements with the J&Js and 3Ms of the world.

  19. Donor Egg IVF

    Question regarding IVF with donor eggs and being an older parent…..After multiple failed rounds of IVF/miscarriages with my own eggs, we have decided to pursue pregnancy with a donor egg. I’m turning 42 next month. I’m not sure if I’m looking for commiseration or advice…..has anybody used a donor egg? We are definitely moving forward with this, but I’m still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that I won’t be biologically related to my child. Also, I’m worried about being an older parent, and the potential that my child won’t have any siblings. We also have to decide whether to transfer one or two — two obviously increases the probability of having twins, which we need to decide if we are comfortable with. Thanks for any advice/support you can provide!

    • Patricia Gardiner

      No advice, just support, hugs, and best wishes for you. Whatever decision you make will be fine in the long run. This comment seemed to show up really late for me- I remember seeing some below it earlier but not yours until tonight, so maybe re-post Monday?

    • Tammy Two

      Just replying in case you come back to this. I can’t speak to this issue from the parent side, but my father isn’t my biological dad, but elected to raise me as his own. HE’S TOTALLY MY HERO. I am one of five kids (and I’m the only one that’s not “his”) and there is absolutely no difference, from my perspective, between me and my siblings. I know he loves me like crazy and he’s the best dad I could possibly ask for. I don’t feel like I am missing anything by not being biologically related to my dad. I never got the feeling that he felt less connected to me than to my sister or brothers.

      Point being, in my experience being biologically related to your parent is not required to have a great relationship.

      Hugs and good luck!

  20. Womens group at work question

    Hi all. We have a women’s group at my company and thus far it has catered to the client facing women and has not included support staff. Some events are with external clients, some are run for certain title bands, and some are more general. A few administrative assistants have come to me about wanting to join. What are you thoughts on how to handle? My instincts are to include them in events that are less about winning work and more about how to plan your own success, but it is turning out to be a complicated conversation. I’m interested in others’ input.

    • Killer Kitten Heels

      I don’t know that I would exclude them from the “winning at work”-type events – at least at the firms I have worked at, admin is its own career track, with a ladder to potentially climb and opportunities for raises and promotions/expansions of responsibilities/etc., just like any other job. It almost seems a little, I don’t know, condescending, maybe?, to exclude them from those conversation just because they’re “support staff.” Being a file clerk doesn’t mean you don’t aspire to one day be a manager, you know?

      • Killer Kitten Heels

        ETA: In reading Anonymous below, I wanted to clarify – obviously if the programming is about, say, learning how to develop business, or marketing your practice, or something that is obviously specific to the job function of a particular group, of course admins who don’t do that task and aren’t expected to don’t need to be on the invitation list. But if it’s a generalized discussion about how to, say, set yourself up for a promotion or something, then don’t exclude based on the assumption that admins wouldn’t be interested in that, because some may be.

        And, as an attorney, I don’t think Anonymous below speaks for all of us – I find being on support staff’s good side to be really, really helpful in my career so far. It matters if your boss’s assistant thinks you’re great and helpful and kind or arrogant and rude, and a well-timed comment from a trusted admin to an important partner can really help or really hurt you, at least in my experience. So while I don’t know that every event needs to include everybody, I wouldn’t look down my nose at sometimes sharing programming time with support staff.

        • Anonymous

          There is a difference between being on your staff’s side in the sense that you treat them kindly and with respect and even mentor and advocate for them, on the one hand, and inviting staff to an event or group for attorneys on the other hand. The former is appropriate and I agree can be a huge asset to you personally (as well as being the right thing to do as a boss). The latter would be completely inappropriate in every law firm I’ve worked at.

          • Anonymous

            Yes, this is exactly my point. I have a huge respect for my secretary. Huge. I do not want my women lawyers group to include her.

          • Killer Kitten Heels

            I didn’t get the sense we were talking about a “women lawyers” group though – if that’s the case, like I said, obviously the programming’s not for support staff because they’re not lawyers. If it’s a more general working women’s group, I think exclusion is unnecessary and is exactly the kind of elitism that tends to make support staff think poorly of lawyers.

          • Anonymous

            I really don’t care if they think poorly of me for understanding there is a difference in career between an admin assistant and a money maker.

          • Anonny

            Most of the ‘rain makers’ I know especially the male ones would be hard pressed to feed and cloth themselves never mind writing technical documents. They are useless without their assistants, but they make 10x what their assistants do. It makes no sense to me. I am also forever greatful that I work on a field with more meritocracy and have very rare contact with ‘rain makers’

    • Anonymous

      I wouldn’t. To me those groups are about helping women achieve in business- they are for the money makers. Honestly as a lawyer I’m not spending any time hanging out in a group with secretaries. They arent helping me move up and being associated with support staff is a negative.

      • Anon

        Sad but true. I can’t tell if OP is at a law firm or not but in any event it sounds like professional services. Hate to say it but there is a LOT of separation between professionals (even internal vs. external) and staff in those industries. Say you’re inviting people to a happy hr to network. Potential clients (many, not all) will be annoyed if they get stuck talking to assistant after assistant when they really want to be checking out whether or not they like the professionals in your firm; same with the professionals — when they are trying to get 5 min with a certain potential client and keep having to wait bc an assistant is talking about whatever, they’ll also be annoyed. Problem with this is — next time that event rolls around, people will recall that it was a waste of 2 hrs and not attend.

        To not be totally rude about this, include them in things are more workshop like re management, improving at work etc. but exclude from client facing things.

    • Anonymous

      I wouldn’t if you’re in a law firm or similar environment. I’ve worked in several law firms with womens groups and staff were never included. I’m not saying this is right, but law firms draw huge distinctions between attorneys and staff and treat the two groups very differently. To try to mix the groups or include staff in attorney events would make it sound like you’re out of touch with firm culture.

    • Anonymous

      Admins can potentially migrate into other paths, for example project control, finance, HR (which are technically support functions but are considered more “professional”). Consider forming a group that would include women from these verticals in the company. Def not appropriate to invite them to client-facing events.
      I don’t work in law, but this would work in an IT/professional services type business.

    • Paralegal

      Sometimes I think firm culture needs to change. I think if you are thinking long-term you should occasionally include them in some internal-only events. Our women’s group includes paralegals but not secretaries, which makes no little sense to me. I can completely understand only sending attorneys to public facing events. They are supposed to be polished, good at talking to people, and they are the ones that need to hustle for business. But for internal things, what is the harm? And if it makes the secretaries happy, more engaged, and more professionally minded, that sounds like a good thing to me. Several of the young, bright secretaries at the firm where I work have left to go on to law school. I would hope they would think of the firm as a place that took them seriously and have good things to say about it once they are attorneys themselves. Granted, this is coming from a non-attorney perspective.

      I am a CPA who now works in the tax department of a law firm. My job title is paralegal, but I’m doing the exact same work at the same billable rate I had when I was in public accounting. One of the strangest and hardest adjustments I had when I started this job was when I learned that I am no longer considered to be a professional. I am not allowed to be work friends with the attorneys because I am truly considered to be beneath them. I love this job otherwise, but that kind of attitude is shocking to me. I have been in the work force for 10+ years and I have never worked anywhere else where “know your place” was such a big deal.

      • Blonde Lawyer

        +1. I was work friends with some “staff” (I hate that term too) at my last firm, along with one male attorney. We would have lunch together or go to their after work events sometimes – because we were explicitly invited. We were certainly viewed differently by other attorneys for it and that is straight up BS. Who cares if I spend an hour at lunch with Jane associate or Jane assistant. I’m out at lunch either way. At my current job, there is way less hierarchy. It still exists, but going for a walk or a lunch with your assistant is not frowned upon.

    • AN

      If you are not in a law firm and don’t need a specific degree to do the client facing work, I would absolutely include support staff. It is likely most (all?) don’t want to be doing support work forever and need opportunities to learn more and grow as employees. And they might be better employees for knowing more about the client facing duties.

  21. KT

    Do you keep cash on hand in the house?

    I keep an emergency fund, but I was reading that you should keep cash on hand, as in a disaster, stores may not be able to accept credit cards or have functioning ATMs. I never carry cash, so this is a different step for me.

    If you do, how much cash do you keep in the house? Do you store it in a hidden place? I’m such a doofus, I lose everything, so I’m afraid I’ll lose my cash. Maybe a hollow book or something do I don’t forget will do the trick.

    • Anonymous

      Keep like $100 or $200 in smallish bills (like $20 or less) with your emergency supplies (your box/binder of what you’d grab if you had to leave in an emergency).

    • Anonymous

      No. If a storm is coming and I remember I take out $200 in cash, but that’s it. I refuse to become a doomsday prepper.

        • Anonymous

          To me, depends how much money. A couple hundred? Go for it. 10k? Get some Zanax.

      • Killer Kitten Heels

        I don’t think it’s necessarily “doomsday prepper” level behavior though – I live in the Northeast, and after Hurricane Sandy, consistent power was a problem for weeks. There were definitely stores that normally could’ve taken cards that were unable to because so many power lines/phone lines/etc. were down and damaged, and it helped to have cash on hand, because you never knew which stores had card-readers down, and “open” didn’t necessarily equate to “operating at full capacity with internet capabilities.”

        • consultant

          Yeah same. My parents have always kept $200-$500 emergency money in an envelope in their bedside table and it was very useful during Sandy when everything was out.

        • Anon in NYC

          Yep. I think we have about $300 in cash on hand and post-Sandy I can see increasing that amount.

    • Anon

      I’m a bit paranoid about stuff like this.

      I live in a very snow-heavy area, so our storms are brutal and power outages common.

      I keep my cash in a diversion safe. It looks like a bottle of shaving cream, but the bottom screws out to store money or jewelry (like Jurassic Park!). I keep it on the bottom shelf under the bathroom sink with other creams/cleansers. You can see it here: http://ow.ly/TIyl304v3rl

    • Anonymous

      I don’t but I keep meaning to. My FIL hides money all over the house (and then loses it!). I’d pic one spot and maybe do like $500? I guess the downside is if you get robbed and someone finds it, so you need to be comfortable with losing the amount of cash you hide.

    • meme

      We keep about $2K behind the drawers in a dresser (have to take the drawers all the way out to find it). It comes in handy mostly when hubs wants to buy something over the ATM limit off of Craigslist on a weekend, but the idea is for power outages, etc. We live in a place with snowy winters.

    • Sarabeth

      I keep $40 in the car so I can still get gas if I forget my wallet, but that’s it.

    • long time lurker

      Yes. Lived in NYC during the big blackout and had NO Cash on me and the ATMs didn’t work. A stranger ended up buying me a bottle of water on the street and I borrowed some cash from a neighbor and was fine, but since then I have always kept about 200 in my underwear drawer (and another 40 or so at work (my desk locks)).

    • Meg Murry

      My parents always kept cash in their underwear or sock drawers and I do the same, although not as much as they do/did. But part of that reasoning was because they mostly used a cash-based budgeting system for day to day purchases – my father carried cash, my mother carried slightly less cash and the checkbook, they only used credit cards for big purchases or emergencies.

      I also lived in an area where not every business accepted credit/debit cards, and lots of people took out cash for weekend spending (festivals, farmer’s markets, plus splitting restaurant tabs, etc), so it was not uncommon for multiple of the ATMs in the area to be out of cash by Friday night or Saturday morning. So we got in the habit of having a moderate amount of cash on hand, knowing that there would be times when we wouldn’t be able to easily get cash for a couple of days.

      My family also still gives cash for birthdays and holidays, which I often shove into my jewelry box and than am pleasantly surprised to re-discover a few months later and go use for a splurge.

    • Maddie Ross

      We keep about $500-1000 in the house in bills. We are not of the “no touch” variety though – we routinely use it to pay our maid or to pay the babysitter and then replenish occasionally. It’s been useful to have and would be helpful in a dire emergency. And is also not so much that we would be in trouble were we robbed or had a fire or something. I also keep an emergency $20 in my wallet and singles between the seats of my car for valets/parking.

      • Walnut

        +1 to this. We use credit 99% of the time, so anytime cash comes our way, we stash it in a designated place (reimbursements, Craigslist sales, gifts, etc.). We have $1k or so in a variety of bills and currencies as we’ve wound up with them. The cash fund is raided and funded as needed.

    • Anon

      We keep about $1000 in mixed bills at the house. It’s less with disaster in mind than it is The Bank of Us for cash transactions, as neither one of us carries cash routinely, and we live in an area where it’s a fifteen minute drive to the nearest ATM, and neither one of us is good about remembering to go to the ATM even when we know we will need some cash.

    • In House Lobbyist

      We keep $1000 in small bills in our safe. And then we keep an extra $200 or so to pay the housekeeper or babysitter if we forget to take out money. And I keep an extra $100 or so in my closet for those days when I want to go to a yard sale or buy something off craigslist. And I think it is more than just for doomsday – what if you wallet is stolen or your ATM card quits working all of a sudden?

    • Anon

      Not ordinarily, but if Trump becomes president, I’m going to bury $100k in a ziplock bag in my backyard, buy a fallout shelter, stock up on water, and hunker down for the next four years. Good luck and Godspeed to all you all who couldn’t see the writing on the wall. ;)

  22. Saguaro

    I am teaching my 12 (13 next month) YO daughter about good skin care; any suggestions for a good moisturizer for her age? I spent way too much time staring at the options in the aisle at Target and couldn’t decide. I am thinking something gentle but moisturizing, and maybe with SPF.

    • meme

      Definitely SPF. Oil of Olay has a sensitive-skin SPF 30 moisturizer that I use every day and love. I’ve tried lots of others and always come back. I’ve been using this for 25 years (except I switched from SPF 15 to 30 at some point), and at 40, I look 30 (I know, everyone says that, but SPF every day really, really matters).

    • SD

      Do you have Amazon Prime? I’d look there and go based off of reviews and ingredients. You can look up ingredients for each product and what they do on a site called CosDNA.
      Moisturizer with SPF is NOT enough SPF for daily use. I use “Missha All Around Safe Block Waterproof Sun Milk” every single day, after my moisturizer has sunk in, under makeup. It’s small but it’s worth it and lasts a while. She can use something else on her body.
      Start her on a basic routine of cleanser (look for something ph balanced- your skin’s natural ph is 5.5, and you don’t want to use a cleanser that raises it too much. You can research this online), moisturizer, and good quality SPF. American sunscreens only block one type of UV radiation, while Asian sunscreens are mandated to block both types, so it’s worth it to do research and special-order.
      I know this seems like an insane amount of research compared to just picking something up at the drug store, but it really makes all the difference in the world. A lot of what beauty companies sell are downright harmful to our skin (like high ph cleansers).

      • Anonymous

        Agree. Korean and Japanese sunscreens are the best in the world. I use Biore Aqua Rich and buy it on Amazon. Also, if acne is an issue, I love Cosrx products.

        • SD

          Hello, fellow convert. I have Corsx Whitening Power Essence and Corsx Whitehead Power Liquid. Snail 96 and Blackhead Power Liquid are next on my list.

      • Wish

        I’ve been looking for a physical sun screen to wear on those days I don’t need water resistant kinds (walk to lunch / work commute sun exposure days) and have locked down on the Cerave moisturizer with SPF. Looking at the % of active ingredients, it does seem similar to regular sunscreens. Would this moisturizer with SPF not be enough to serve as a sunscreen on its own?
        Side note: I’m waiting for my first shipment of Korean essences!

      • ChiLaw

        I use the Aveeno daily moisturizer with spf 30 (pale as casper with a family history of skin cancer). It’s pretty nice and neutral.

      • Anon

        My Asian skin hated American products but Cetaphil was the only thing it tolerated, and maybe Origins. Olay broke me out like crazy, “sensitive” or not.

    • Anonymous

      Maybe with SPF?!? That’s the only thing you need to teach her! Cetaphil all the way.

    • Anon

      Not sure what to rec for moisturizer. It took me a while to realize my skin type and find what suits me. Could be the same way for your daughter. My holy grail skincare product though, is the Thayers Rose Petal Witch Hazel toner. I could be missing moisturizer but I have to have a swipe of this stuff twice a day. It keeps my acne at bay and just feels refreshing.

    • Anonymous

      Just SPF. Moisturizer with SPF doesn’t have enough SPF for most people. I wouldn’t be worried about anything except sun protection at her age and I hope you’re not encouraging her to use moisturizer to prevent the signs of aging.

      • Jitterbug

        my mom had me use it because my skin was feeling dry after washing, and later on I found out moisturizing can actually keep acne at bay – when you use the right stuff.

        • Saguaro

          Yes, this was why I want her to moisturize. Not to combat aging (although that’s my problem!).

    • Jitterbug

      I love the Simple light protecting moisturizer, can’t recommend it enough! Cetaphil is also great.

    • Anomanom

      If she has the potential to be oily or acne prone, I LOVE the EltaMD UV Clear sunscreen/lotion. Excellent stuff. I am alos a big fan of the Mad Hippie Vitamin C serum and face creams. Their stuff feels nice, and I have seen an improvement in texture and brightness in the time I’ve used it. All of those are in the 20-25ish range through Amazon.

    • Marta

      In case your daughter has no specific skincare issues [acne for example], I would recommend lightweight cream with good moisturizing ingredients, SPF [if used as day cream] and preferably suitable for sensitive skin. I have had great experience with ISIS skincare [which might be a bit harder to get in the USA, but it is easy to come across in Europe]. I have been using their Glyco A peeling for 2 years [helps with removing dead skin cells], Teen Derm Concentrate [for acne-prone skin] and Ruboril [moisturizers for sensitive skin]. My other favourite basic moisturizer [without SPF, though] is Physiogel cream [the original, blue version], which I put under my MAC Makeup [with SPF]. My mom has taught me to use moisturizer and SPF since early age and I do not have any signs of aging [N.B. friends my age are already on Botox…]. I also like to masage oils into my skin before bed [argan oil, lavender & borago oil] – 1-2x per week and I only use micellar toners for most sensitive skin [to prevent my skin from overdrying].

  23. CKB

    Trying to think of a practical Christmas gift for my 16yo grade 11 son who will be going away to university in a year & a half (eek! How did he get so old?) that we will probably also do for his younger brothers when they get to be this age. Any ideas besides a computer? My parents got me luggage when I was that age, but he already has a good carry on size suitcase, and it seems less practical now than back then.

    • Anonymous

      If he has finished growing, gift him a suit or a tux.
      But honestly, a good laptop would be most practical.

    • mascot

      18 months out seems a little far out to buy for a laptop. With the various pricing deals and potential school specific configurations, I’d wait. How about a trip to a place he’s always wanted to go?

    • anon a mouse

      A good bicycle? Nice heavy-duty touring backpack? If he likes the outdoors, a tent + sleeping bag?

      Another alternative would be lessons for something he’s interested in that will serve him in adulthood – woodworking, cooking, etc.

    • Anonymous

      I’d wait on the laptop. Computer technology changes a lot in 20 months and he’s going to want to have the latest technology or close to it when he actually starts. Plus you can probably get an educational discount through his school once he’s enrolled.

    • Cat

      As others have said, wait on the computer. But every boy dorm room I’ve seen features a nice TV — a mid-size flat screen could be a good option.

    • rooney

      It sounds like this is really your last Christmas to get him a present as your kid. I’d do that. (A 16 year old is more likely to get into trouble with a personal laptop than an 18 year old. I know you think your kid is great, but…)

  24. Wildkitten

    Cbackson, I didn’t want to join the reply all cluster above, but I want to say I really appreciate your thoughtful and articulate commentary today.

  25. Anon for this- LEXAPRO

    So I finally faced my reality and started Lexapro this week. Generally how long do I take it before I know it is working/it isn’t? Also any other related tips for taking SSRIs for the first time?

    • Care

      Give it a couple of weeks. And then talk to those around you the most. My family noticed that I was happier before I did.

    • cbackson

      Pay attention to potential physical side-effects. I had a lot of trouble with drowsiness, for example, when I started Prozac and had to start taking it at night.

      • Celia

        And I had lactose intolerance almost immediately. The first time I took an SSRI, it lasted about a year. The second time I took a tricyclic, and when the LI began on day two or three, I stopped taking the drug. I would rather deal with my depression in other ways, because I couldn’t bear the lifestyle changes associated with LI at the same time as everything else.

        And none of my doctors over the course of almost 20 years had ever heard of this side effect –but I read about it in a clinical study report circulated at a major health insurance company.

    • KT

      It took me about 6 weeks before I really noticed a difference.

      For me, i needed to increase my water intake. When I drank more water, I didn’t have any side effects

    • Evodia

      From my experience, several weeks were needed to start feeling a positive difference in my mood. I did have some pretty intense fatigue at the start, but that went away after about 3-4 weeks. I also felt a little nausea for the first week or two, but that also went away. I’ve been on lexapro for 2-3 months now, and am really glad I took the leap.

    • Idea

      I’ve heard 2 weeks.
      It really made my libido go down.
      My doctor (MD/psychiatrist) said it was OK to NOT take it when it was “date night” with husband, because it does stay in your system/build up in your system for awhile – it’s not like birth control where you have to take it every day. But it is in order for it to have the long-term effect, but it’s OK for date night.
      OK, now I’m talking in circles — talk with your provider, obviously.

    • KS IT Chick

      A year ago, I saw side effects immediately (lethargy, mental fogginess) but the actual desired effects didn’t kick in for a couple weeks. After 4 weeks, we cut the dosage in half, and the side effects disappeared but I kept the desired effects. I still almost always get a full night’s sleep after I take it.

    • B.

      A warning: you might have about a week where you have suicidal ideation (imagining yourself dead, what other people would do if you were, etc.). That’s a symptom I had after I started Lexapro. It started about 2-3 weeks in and lasted for 1 week. I asked the pharmacist why does this happen and he believed it’s because the medication allows some parts of your brain to become more active.

      Stick with it. You’ll start to feel better after about a month. It takes a while to really kick in. Take it at the same time every day and always have it with food.

  26. non-traditional btb

    Has anyone had a non-traditional wedding? My boyfriend and I have officially decided that we don’t want a traditional wedding, but we’re unsure of the format we’d like. We’re thinking something similar to eloping in that we get married without an audience somewhere abroad and then turn the trip into our honeymoon, but we’d also like to have some way to celebrate, mainly for our families. I’m not really sure if that’s doable, or how it would be received. Would it be seen as offensive by extended family that invited me to their weddings, and/or would it seem to our broader social and professional circles like we don’t have our families’ blessings? The goal is to have a ceremony that is comfortable for us (we’re shy introverts) but also have a celebration that lets our parents relish in the moment and satisfies social norms. Any insight? Blogs, magazines, etc we should look into?

    • Killer Kitten Heels

      Not sure about magazines, but in your shoes I’d probably do the combo wedding/honeymoon trip and then throw an informal party to celebrate your marriage when you get home. It probably won’t please everybody (because weddings = people are going to get offended by something for some reason, no matter what you do), but I think you might be getting too wound up about reactions. This would be NBD with my family/friends, especially if you threw a follow-up party on return.

    • Anonymous

      There’s nothing offensive about eloping or having a small wedding. People may be sad they’re not included but you haven’t done anything wrong and they don’t have any right to be upset. I can’t really articulate why, but eloping and then having a large reception at home feels gift-grabby, unless you’re very clear that you don’t want gifts. It’s definitely not unheard of to do a small reception or elopement and then have a large party, but if you’re concerned about social norms I’d have a traditional wedding with the ceremony and reception on the same day and invite as few or as many people to that as you want, but invite everyone who’s invited to one to the other.
      I also want to note that as a shy introvert, I found the reception much more stressful than the ceremony. Obviously you know your personality and your fiance’s personality better than I do but I wouldn’t assume a large reception would be easy for shy introverts.

    • Anonymous

      How would your parents relish in the moment of you getting married if they aren’t there? I wouldn’t worry about extended family or social contacts at all, but I would worry that your very closest people will be deeply hurt by being excluded from your wedding, and a party after the fact will be no substitute.

      • Anonymous

        This. It may not be a breach of etiquette, but I can’t even imagined how hurt our parents and siblings would have been if we’d excluded them from the ceremony, and I don’t think a giant dance party (fun though it may be) is a substitute for witnessing someone actually get married.

    • NYNY

      My wedding was on the funky side of traditional – casual ceremony at reception site, Mexican food, red dress – but I have friends who have had small city hall ceremonies and a bigger reception on the same day, which worked well. Would you feel comfortable getting married in front of your parents (and maybe siblings, if applicable) if you didn’t have other guests at the ceremony? Have you spoken to your families about your idea to see how they would take it?

      Also, not sure where your “abroad” is, but my friends who got married in Mexico and Thailand had a city hall ceremony at home first for the paperwork, and the abroad ceremony was just… ceremonial. There were some questions about how to legally marry out of the country.

      Ultimately, you should do what makes you happy. I’m just sharing some perspective from my experience.

    • Anonymous

      I’d strong encourage you to include your parents and siblings even if you basically elope. A friend had a very simple wedding at SF City Hall with immediate family only (and that happens to be a gorgeous venue so they got nice photographs) and then a party afterwards for extended family and friends. I know there are people who elope just the two of them but I can’t image not having my parents and siblings at my wedding.

      • Anonymous

        +1

        This. My BFF eloped just the two of them and while I understand, I’m sad I wasn’t there. If it was my sister, I’d feel really sad. I wouldn’t be mad but I would feel sad.

        Many people that do an international wedding, get married at city hall first to take care of the legalities. What if you did a city hall ceremony with parents + siblings and then left same day for holiday/honeymoon/wedding and did an informal party when you returned.

      • Anon

        This is what we did. We had a small wedding with our parents and siblings, plus each of our childhood best friends. We mostly did this because my husband has a HUGE extended family and we could not figure out how to fairly limit the guest list. If we invited just his aunts/uncles and their children and spouses (his first cousins), the list would have been at over 60 people right there. So we just decided to basically elope with immediate family. It did cause some hurt feelings and speculation that I was pregnant, but everyone has since mostly gotten over it now 11 years later.

    • Anononope

      I was delighted by my less-than-traditional wedding.

      Here’s what we did.

      We got my brother and his brother ordained online. We arranged for our immediate family (about 15 people total) to come to the city where we lived (got two AirBnB houses and everyone shared the space). On our wedding day, we got dressed up all pretty, met up with our families and our photog, and walked to the park and had a tiny ceremony. We didn’t reserve the space, but it was a weekday in the off season at 3 pm, so we were pretty confident we’d be fine. We were. We had a short, sweet ceremony on the shore of a lake, with a beautiful view. We took pictures and walked back to our apartment, drank champagne and had cheese and snacks with the family. After about an hour everyone left and husband (!!!) and I went to our favorite sushi place together to celebrate, then to our favorite bar. It was low key and delightful.

      A few days later we rented out the party room in a brewery and threw a big drunken, dancing bash for our friends and extended family. We gave our parents and siblings the opportunity to Do Something at the beginning of the party if they wanted to (they’re performers in different ways) so that sort of took the space of the traditional speeches, and then we did parent/child dancing, and a first dance, and toasts. So some of that traditional stuff happened for everyone to participate in.

    • Idea

      Not sure how big your families are.
      My friend got married on an island in the Carribbean, can’t remember if it was USVI or BVI. Bride and Groom each had 1 sibling and brought 1 friend as attendant. So it was Bride, Groom, their 2 parents, 2 siblings, 2 friends, and I think a grandma or 2? So max at 12. That was their ceremony, done through a hotel/resort on the beach.

      When they came home, their parents threw a party for them at a fancy local seafood restaurant, no dancing that I recall, just like an open house/cocktail party with a lot of food and cupcakes. The wedding party got to wear their clothes again, and people made toasts. No DJ. No assigned seating.

      I wasn’t the friend who was invited to the beach, and I’m kind of miffed, but whatever.

    • CHJ

      I highly recommend the blog A Practical Wedding – they feature all sorts of different weddings, including tiny ceremonies, elopements, and big weddings, and they have many discussions about the emotional side of weddings as well as the logistical side. Bottom line – people have every kind of wedding imaginable, and you should figure out what feels right to you.

  27. anon

    Writing a thank you note for an interview. If there’s a question I don’t feel like I answered as well as I could have, should I try to address it? Or just let it go? The question was about an accomplishment I’m particularly proud of and I think I could have been clearer about what my particular role in the project was.

    • Anonymous

      Let it go. All a thank you note is intended to convey is that you are professional enough to write one.

    • Anonymous

      I would let it go. There is a good chance the person has forgotten and you risk reminding them.

    • Spirograph

      I always try to say something substantive in my thank you note, referring to something we’d discussed and reinforcing why I’d be good for the job. If you can succinctly address the answer you’re concerned about in that vein, go for it. But don’t say “I should have said xyz.”

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