ByElizabeth Hours Updated
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Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Short-Sleeve Dart Dress

A woman wearing a black short-sleeved shirt

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

A perfect fit-and-flare dress can be hard to find, so when I come across one, I want to shout it from the rooftops. This crepe short-sleeve dress from Elie Tahari comes in three other great colors, but the New Yorker in me is always going to gravitate towards a perfect LBD.

Add your favorite shoe and you’ll be reaching for this at least once a week until winter.

The dress is $348 at Elie Tahari and comes in sizes 0–16.

P.S. Happy Passover to those who celebrate!

Sales of note for 12.5

378 Comments

  1. What sort of jacket or blazer would you wear with this dress? It is lovely but I freeze in the zealous air conditioning without one in short-sleeved dresses.

    1. I have a similar dress and wear it with an open blazer. I have one longer, kind of less structured blazer which works for more casual occasions and then I have a cropped collarless (not Chanel style, collarless and open) blazer in a similar color with a bit of texture to it that works like a suit.

      I tried closed blazers and ones with a traditional collar and they didn’t look right to me but these work.

      2. I can see you’ve been lucky enough never to work in an overly air conditioned offices. I think most of us haven’t had that level of luck.

    5. I don’t think the proportions of this work with a jacket. A cropped one and the skirt looks girlish and twee, a long one is a mismatch for the style. I’d wear a wrap.

    6. I run hot, so this dress would be perfect for me. To your question: I wonder how this would look with a lady jacket.

      1. I agree with the fuller skirt it would look better with a short jacket, so I’m imagining the more or less waist length style of lady jacket.

  2. I have a Juliette sweater jacket from J Crew from several years ago. It is still on the website. If you have one, what are you wearing it with in 2024? Help me shop my closet better. I was wearing skinny jeans when I got it and work in a casual office that I go to daily.

    1. I’d wear it similarly to how the pictures are styled, as a more dramatic layer over wider-leg pants. The images for the black sweater look the most modern to me, though obviously swap in work-approp pant fabric for denim.

    2. Three women in my office are wearing one today. One with kick crop pants and kitten heels, one with skinny pants and flats, and one with straight pants and mules. So there’s that anecdotal evidence.

    4. I’m literally wearing the beige one right now, for WFH with a tee and leggings. It’s a comfy way to elevate in case of a Zoom call, and I love that it has pockets.

      1. I WFH and this is how I wear mine. I also bring mine on work trips and throw it over any outfit that doesn’t include a blazer bc I am always cold.

    5. Could look super-cute with a black mini/pencil skirt, black tights, and boots of some sort, or as a “topper” or “duster” with a short-sleeved crew-neck slim dress underneath, preferably sort of the same color as the Juliette sweater jacket.

  3. If you have long (10) and wide feet, where do you get pretty flats or sandals that you can do a lot of walking in without them biting your feet? Shopping for a teen who needs them for confirmation and a dance and graduation. Rothy’s seem to be too narrow for her. We may try a DSW but even that isn’t enough walking to suss out a culprit (the Rothy’s were fine for a church service but not for several city blocks of walking). Worst case scenario is we just Birkenstocks in a color she likes.

    1. Rockport has wide width and I can walk in those for quite awhile. They tend to run a bit big IMHO.

      1. Yes. I posted some links but all my babysitters are wearing white sneaks to prom. My long wide feet like Veja.

    3. Depends how wide- I have size 11 feet that are wide, but I can wear regular widths in shoes that run wide. I have these and they are great!
      https://www.target.com/p/women-39-s-raleign-ankle-strap-sandals-universal-thread-8482-black-11/-/A-89469332?preselect=89469332#lnk=sametab

      I also have these shoes, all of which work for a long and wide (C/D but not E) foot:

      https://poshmark.com/listing/Evinda-Metallic-Leather-Stiletto-Silvergray-heels-SandalVINCE-CAMUTO-624dd2ab1801364eb45ec43d (Don’t see them now but got them around the holidays at Nordstrom online)

      Vionic is pretty comfy and can run wide. I have these but it looks like they have similar shoes in lighter colors.

      https://www.dsw.com/en/us/product/vionic-marsanne-sandal/577531?activeColor=002&cm_mmc=CSE-_-GPS-_-G_Shopping_Sandals-_-New_Sandals&cadevice=m&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwlZixBhCoARIsAIC745AnoMr8OrTQbY2cPnr26Zhriu6or_EKkO3aHxLWOy9QD6cHenBBVncaAqEiEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

      And for flats, birdies in the Starling style fit well. My feet are too wide for their other styles and also Rothy’s! MIA makes a Rothy’s dupe that fits me.

      Good luck!!

    4. My daughter has wide, but not particularly long (7.5 or 8) feet, and she’s found Sam Edelman sandals fit in regular (not wide) sizes. The wide was actually too wide, which has never happened before, and we returned the W for the regular width. I had ordered a bunch from Nordstrom just from searching for sandals in wide widths. She ended up with sandals from SE, SoftWalk and Munro. She is very particular and very vocal about uncomfortable shoes, but all of the ones she kept would be suitable for confirmation and graduation.

    7. If Birks are comfortable for her, try Vionic. They often have some cute-ish styles and I find them roomier than many other brands.

    8. I have a bunch of Gentle Souls. They don’t come in wide but they work – the quality of the leather is important to fit to wide feet comfortably. No idea what their current styles are and if they have any attractive options. Mine are probably a decade old. Other brands that work for me: Life Stride, Dolce Vita, Paul Green, Clarks.

      1. Agree on Gentle Souls. This is the only brand that I have found that I can wear reliably.

    9. These sound like my feet. I find the Munro line at Nordstrom to be super comfy. Some of the shoes are really old lady looking, but others are not (or maybe less so). I live in the Aries Sandals in the summers; I think they’re as comfy as Birks but much better looking.

      1. I am the one who posted upthread about my daughter keeping SE, Munro and Soft-something, and the Munro Aries is the one she has as well. She is wearing it a lot.

    10. Dansko sandals in size 41. I have two styles – the Tiffani and the Tiana. I go on daily walks of about 1.5-2.5 miles and I wore my Tiffani pair on one such walk more or less accidentally and my feet were fine.

      Size 10 here, wife forefeet.

    11. I am an 11 wide (was 10 wide pre-kids), so I can speak to this. Poor kid I feel her pain… it’s really hard to find wide width cute (and comfortable) shoes.

      For everyday and lots of walking, absolutely Birkenstocks.

      Margaux is a bit on the pricier side but all of their shoes come in widths. They have some really cute flats and sandals that lean more youthful.

      Other (more pricy options) include: Stuart Weitzman (sandals run wider, flats and heels run narrow), Shutz runs wider than average

      1. I have bought from Margaux and have wide bunion-y feet. They are not wide enough for me and are honestly pretty uncomfortable in general.

        1. I have average to wide feet and tried the city sandal from Margaux. I sized up and ordered a wide and still found them wildly uncomfortable. Shame because they were so beautiful.

    12. I’m a 9.5 W, and I like Vionic and Kuru shoes. I’d suggest buying a bunch on Amazon prime with free returns. It’s hard to find wide shoes in the store.

    13. I have wide feet and I take the insoles out of my Rothys. I still wouldn’t walk long distances in them but taking out the insoles helps a lot.

  4. Curious question:
    I found old iphones in my filing cabinet~ clearly a bit of a packrat! Does wiping them really work? I have never
    done it before.
    Tips and tricks?

    1. …Of course it works? Millions of people all over the globe trade in their old smart phones every day, and you never hear of John in Sheboygan getting Suzy from Fresno’s photos when he buys a used phone. Besides, if you go into a store, they’ll wipe it for you and you can see that when they’re done, there’s nothing left – it really is back to the original state.

      1. It’s not too absurd of a question – you can often recover deleted data from electronic devices. It may not look like it’s there when you look at the file system, but it can still be present. With the iphone, iirc by default all the user data is encrypted. The “erase” feature is erasing the key so that the data is not recoverable As long as that key is truly gone, your data is cryptographically inaccessible. At least right now, with public knowledge. I would feel comfortable reselling an iphone that has been “wiped.”

    2. I’ve heard from IT friends that it’s not worth the effort to break into an old phone, so wiping it and recycling it is most likely fine.

      1. ETA so my response is clearer: you can get the old data on a phone that has been wiped. But it takes time and effort. For the average person’s phone that effort is not worth it to hackers, so you can basically count on a factory reset to be secure enough for your needs.

    3. just follow the instructions, they work. Also you can sometimes get store credit even for really old phones (not much but you might as well get that $20) so if you’re in the market for a new one, bring them with.

  5. I need a flat or small wedge shoe for an all day conference in NYC. Lots of walking but will be wearing a suit. I just haven’t had luck with loafers – I think because my suits are looking a little frumpy it just doesn’t work as well on me as I see it looking for others. Is there a version of the shape of Rothy’s pointed shoe but more substantial? Like in a leather with more support. I am seeing a lot of round toe ballet flats which look so off / young to me.

    1. It may not be your vibe but Fly London? I have a kickoff by Sketchers that could not be more comfortable and is a great walking shoe. I was pleasantly shocked.

      1. Fly London fan here. I never see them mentioned! Majority of my conference shoes are Fly London.

    2. No suggestions on a specific brand but keep in mind whether this walking will be in a conference center or on the gross NYC streets where your shoes will get destroyed.

    3. Following as I’m always looking for substantial flats, but also needing the advice of the commenter above about streets vs office when I head to NY this summer. I’m going to wear a pair of sneakers for the streets and change to flats when I get to the office.

    4. If you’re just talking about being on your feet a ton inside (vs. sidewalks) check out Birdies. If you’re talking about sidewalks, spare your feet and your shoes and wear something sturdier than pointed-toe flats.

  6. For those following the Berkeley/Chemerinsky saga, the Guardian published an article over the weekend with updates. The New Yorker published its own piece as well. Malak Afaneh, the student who leads the campus Law Students for Justice in Palestine group that released the blood libel poster ahead of the protest she staged at Chemerinsky’s private home, is unrepentant and believes she is protected by freedom of speech, which the National Lawyers Guild also stands behind. She has filed a religious discrimination complaint against Chemerinsky and his wife, Professor Fisk, who Afaneh says targeted her for wearing a hijab and for being Palestinian when they asked her to leave their home and tried to take the microphone from her (there was no further mention of her original claim that Fisk was attempting to fondle her breast). You read that right – the student who issued a blood libel poster against a Jewish professor and then targeted him in his home, despite him having no control over the university’s policies towards Israel and despite him speaking AGAINST Israel’s actions in Gaza, is claiming she is the victim. Furthermore, she denies the blood libel poster was antisemitic, says she will “never apologize for it,” and says that Chemerinsky is trying to “spin this to be about his Jewish identity.” She did not elaborate on why her group did not target any non-Jews in positions of power, such as those in charge of investments, for this protest.

    You can’t make this stuff up. I’ve never seen a more craven scramble for victimhood. Afaneh says she “may pursue further legal action” as well. I honestly can’t believe this. I could see a role for a (legal) public protest against the investment board or even a professor who spoke out often in favor of Israel’s actions in Gaza – but since Chemerinsky is neither of those, he could only have been targeted for being a Jew.

    I suppose it makes sense since Afaneh is on record retweeting a post mocking Jews and calling Jewish women “b*tches who hate brown people” when she was senior class president at Pomona. She was eventually made to apologize, but it’s clear her antisemitism runs deep and has rarely, if ever, been challenged. I have so much secondhand embarrassment for her and her family. If she were my daughter, I’d be so ashamed.

    Anyway, there’s an update.

    1. With all her time and energy going towards this, it explains why her grasp of the first amendment is so weak.

    2. I don’t know, I sort of agree with Jameel Jaffer from Columbia that’s quoted in the story. She clearly doesn’t have a legal right to free speech in a private home (and it’s pretty wild that she keeps claiming that she does) but I do think their reaction feels disproportionate to her remarks. My husband and I are professors and I can’t imagine either of us putting a student in a headlock unless they being physically violent towards us or others.

      1. This is what Jaffer said, to be clear. The comment about them getting physical was just my two cents.

        “There’s been a wave of censorship and suppression since October 7,” he told me, adding that much of it has been designed to suppress pro-Palestinian speech. “All these questions would be important even if the United States had no connection to this war, but censorship of speech relating to the war in Israel and Gaza is censorship of speech relating to a war in which the US is deeply implicated.”

        Jaffer wishes Chemerinsky had reacted differently to the protest. “I’m not unsympathetic,” he said, “because I do understand why he might have responded differently in his own home than he would have on the law school campus. At the end of the day, though, I think it would have been better if he had allowed the student to have her say and then continued with the dinner. I’m not making a first amendment argument here; I’m making an argument about free speech culture. But I think that would have been a better result.”

        2. I can’t say I agree with Jaffer. It’s not “censorship” to not allow students a free platform to speak at a private dinner party where no speeches are planned. It’s a false equivalence. It’s even more galling he would say that after seeing how Afaneh and her campus club treated Chemerinsky in advance. Why on earth should a Jewish professor hosting a dinner make space for an antisemite to have the floor? Jaffer didn’t touch that.

      2. I’m OP and I agree that if it were me, I wouldn’t have touched Afaneh because it would ultimately cause a distraction from her actions. I would have called police. That said, it was a tussle for the microphone and trying to urge someone to walk away with an arm around the shoulder, so no great crime – and certainly not a racially or sexually motivated assault.

        1. But this being Berkeley, calling the police on a person of color would have been condemned also.

          2. I’m a Berkeleyan who has had positive experiences with our city police. I think they would have been helpful in the situation.

          3. They probably could have! My comment was in the context of the discussion of optics. Bad optics to get physical, even though you have a right to remove trespassers from your own home. Better optics to call police instead? I doubt it.

      3. I would suggest actually watching the video before believing the characterization of “a headlock.”

        1. This. I actually went to rewatch it after reading this comment because I was wondering if I had watched only a portion of the interaction because (and confirming on second watch) there was definitely no “headlock” or anything resembling it.

        2. Not the poster who wrote headlock, and I agree headlock is a fair characterization. The professor wrapped her arm around the student’s shoulders and throat.

          1. She put her arm around the student’s shoulders and the student moved so that the professor’s arm was next to her neck. If you think that’s a headlock, you need to look up what a headlock is.

    3. I’m sorry but all of these students should be expelled. Also, Jews are not just rich, white people! I have family members who are Jewish and definitely do not look white! Jews come in every color but we are seen as rich white colonizers which is why all these pro Palestinian groups thinks they are on the right side of history. It’s very frustrating.

      1. The movement for a free Palestine is on the right side of history. Afenah is an anti-Semite and should be expelled. Two things can be true.

        1. I wonder will a free Palestine have rights for all religions? And how will the PA and Hamas share power?

          1. As a Palestinian Christian, I just wanna say your Islamophobia is showing. It was a multi-religious society, but decades of brutal oppression tends to radicalize people.

          3. Absolutely not. But I also don’t support the decades of settler violence, humiliation, torture, and illegal detentions either. And I don’t support the way we write off Muslims as radicals,, suggesting they are never worthy of independence and dignity. You need to learn how to walk and chew gum at the same time.

          4. Don’t be so reductive. You can be in the side of a free Palestine and on the side of ending the indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinian civilians in the current conflict, and even acknowledge how we got here with a nuanced view that does not entirely dismiss the Palestinian cause without “supporting the violence of 10/7.” You could even have all that and agree that Hamas should be taken out of power.

          5. to the anon at 10:27, I truly support a two state solution, and think the Palestinians should have their own land, but I do not think there is any excuse for radicalization

          6. Unless you have lived it, you have NO idea how you would react. I’m not going to be so generous as to assume that you would be an angel either.

            To be clear, when I said ‘radicalization’, I didn’t mean the acts on October 7. I meant the progression towards a more conservative society that is less tolerant of multi-religious/ethnic communities. The first response implied that somehow Palestinians are not capable of it. They are.

          8. There’s a wide gap between being an angel and a rapist, terrorist, murderer, etc. Your sympathy for Hamas is showing.

        2. If your definition of a “free Palestine” is a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, then I agree. If it’s “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free,” then I very much do not think that’s on the right side of history.

          2. Do you really think that I would simultaneously want somebody to be expelled for being an anti-Semite and wish for the annihilation of the Jewish people? Of course not.

        4. to the Anon @10:27 it seems kind of hypocritical to say that there is an excuse for radicalization because I do not know how I react, and yet there is no excuse for the actions of the Israeli government? I am not a military expert, nor has my country ever had terrorists show up to rape and kidnap people, so if there is a justification for radicalization, why isn’t there also a justification for Israel’s reaction ?
          [I do not actually agree with either of these things, I just think your argument is faulty]

          1. Anon at 12:21. I agree. I think what Israel is doing is absolutely horrible but if someone’s daughter was kidnapped and being raped multiple times a day, I don’t think they would just walk away. To expect Israel to do so is insane.

          2. No, there is no excuse for the actions of the Israeli government. And there is no excuse for what Hamas did on October 7th. They are the same.

          3. So what you’re saying Anon @12:57 is that you would become radicalized? I don’t think you are making the point you think you are making.

    4. There is so much that is problematic about how this student acted and continues to act. But I think he was likely targeted because he’s the Dean-obviously the way those targets were presented was antisemitic – but most students just think Dean=power and it’s the most present authority figure in their life so is, from that very unsophisticated viewpoint, the target.

      1. Except they make a big deal of how he is Jewish. I didn’t know he was Jewish and I had his textbook in law school until they told me he was Jewish.

        1. It’s so gaslight-y of her to obviously target him for being Jewish and then later claim innocence and that HE’S the one making it about being Jewish. If I were in charge, I’d expel her for gaslighting a professor alone.

    5. Expel her. She clearly didn’t learn enough in Constitutional Law to warrant a Berkeley degree.

    6. Both were in the wrong. The student shouldn’t have interrupted the gathering. The professor wife shouldn’t have gotten physical, which undoubtedly escalated the situation.

      I started my career in academia, and even as a doctoral candidate TAing classes, we were widely admonished to never touch students, hard stop. I even did an active shooter lockdown drill. Again, we were told to NOT intervene, with “hide, run, fight” in that order…fight being a last case scenario, with suggestions being to throw stationary items.

      It’s mind-boggling that the professor put the student in a chokehold instead of phoning 911.

      1. Agree with this. It was terrible judgment on Professor Fisk’s part. At the same time I am sure she was shocked and not thinking straight-I think would go a long way for her to just say that was a bad choice but also this situation should never have happened.

        1. Agreed. It was not a headlock or a chokehold and it’s a good thing there’s video so we don’t actually have to argue about it. We can all look for ourselves and recognize reality. Calling it a chokehold is like calling a mom who physically lifts her child into the car seat “committing assault.”

        2. +1

          Really disheartening to see people speak so authoritatively when they have the basic facts wrong. They did not put her in a chokehold.

          2. Putting her arm around the student to try to move her away and the student moving her body to make the professor’s actions look more aggressive than they were. Which is where the “headlock,” “grabbing her br**st” language came from – it was calculated by the student to try to make the professor seem like an aggressor when the video makes clear no such thing happened.

        1. Did she not touch and grab the student? How would you characterize the interaction, if not physical?

          1. Did she not touch and grab the student? How would you characterize the interaction, if not physical?

  7. If you have a chronic medical condition that interferes with your work, how… Heck, I don’t know what I’m asking. My condition is the worst it’s ever been, and I don’t have a crystal ball to know if it’ll get better. All I know is that I’m worried every day about the lackluster service I’m giving my clients and my reputation that is in absolute tatters as I try (and fail) to hang on.

    I’ve made peace with the fact that I’m simply not able to do my job as well as I once was. I’m profoundly grateful that I was able to work at this level and that I can say, “I was there,” before my condition necessitated my departure. Financially, I need to stay in this role for another year, at which point I fully expect to significantly downshift. I already browse opportunities and would take the right one if it came along now.

    But how do I manage now until I can head for the exits? Any words of advice from others with chronic medical conditions for making work work when you can hardly work? Advice of any flavor appreciated.

    1. I’m sorry. Take time to grieve. My solution was a true 40h/wk job at a utility with generous sick time.

    2. Have you taken or do you qualify for short term disability? Or potentially other types of workload modification?

      The first thing that jumped to mind is finding a job that you can do with your condition, but it sounds like you are already on it.

      1. Hi there, yes, please work with HR and your doctor to help yourself. You owe it to yourself, and you owe it to your clients. They don’t deserve lackluster work, and you deserve the right to not shatter your reputation for something that’s not your fault.

    4. Go talk to HR. You can set up FMLA leave that you take in intermittent chunks, like for a flare up – it doesn’t have to be all at once. Do the paperwork now – best case you end up not needing to use it but worse case, the framework is already in place and you have less hoop-jumping to manage

    5. I quit. It sucked and I still really miss the job I used to have, but I don’t miss feeling awful every day and feeling like I was failing for reasons that were out of my control. Quitting was the hardest thing I’ve ever done, because like you, I also have a chronic condition that’s quite variable from day to day and it’s hard to know whether or not it will get better, so I stuck it out for a LONG time feeling terrible and mostly doing well enough at a very demanding job, but nowhere near as well as I could have if I felt better. But my condition kept getting worse and my job kept getting more demanding as my career progressed, and eventually I felt like I just wasn’t able to keep up. I was never able to do as well as I wanted to, and I had no life outside of work because I was too exhausted to do anything but sleep when I wasn’t working. We were able to save a ton of money during this time because I felt too awful to spend it on anything. I don’t really have good advice about the transition. It was difficult explaining why I wanted to leave because I didn’t want people to think that I was completely unable to work, though my health issues do have a significant effect on me, so I felt like I had to downplay them. People made a lot of hurtful comments about how it was too bad that I just wasn’t cut out for my job or the job just wasn’t for me, when I actually loved my job and was very good at it, if it wasn’t for the health issues that I couldn’t control. Good luck.

    6. I take things one day at a time, sometimes one hour at a time. I let select people know just enough on a need-to-know basis. But mostly its a fake-it-til-you-make-it thing for me. Commiserations!

    7. Oh man, I’ve got no idea but you sound like you’re really struggling. Hoping for love and strength to bolster you.

    8. Go take a look at the Job Accommodation Network and any support groups you have about work modifications that could be helpful.

      Get a Dr. note and go to HR for any and all accommodations under FMLA.

  8. Preface that I’m posting to the internet because I was NOT a sporty kid and played like, one season of rec basketball in my life.

    My daughter is in 5th grade and has played lots of sports in her 11 years. She’s really pretty mediocre at all of them- she doesn’t have a lot of hustle and she’s not aggressive. She is tall and strong and smart/thoughtful and can usually follow plays. She has played some travel sports and lots of town sports and loves being one of the top players on a town team, or a travel team that’s in a low division (but is competitive within that division).

    Her runway seems to be shortening as all the leagues get competitive and the lower performing kids drop out for their “best” sport.

    My question is how to keep a kid who genuinely loves *playing* sports in the game(s) when she isn’t really to put in the extra work to be a really strong player? Do we keep sport shopping to find a good fit? Move from team sports to maybe less competitive ones (she doesn’t like track or swimming- those are the only two things she’s truly hated!).

    We are in the throes of lax season and she’s getting frustrated bc nobody will pass to her. It’s….because she still struggles with catching. But she doesn’t want to work on it by herself/with us at home, or do clinics. She’s just content to go and be part of the team but not be passed to, but wants to quit next year.

    We had a similar issue in basketball but when the sport split into travel/in-town, she played in town and was the tallest and best player on her team, which boosted her ego and she spent all her free time practicing, and became an even better player. So…is there some secret to getting over that hump? Do we ditch lacrosse and lean into other things?

    FWIW it’s also becoming an issue at softball, but she’s more willing to practice that, though it took some arguing.

    1. So no advice, but I was wondering if I’d had a fever dream and wrote this. I’ve also got an 11 year old and struggle with the same thing. It really frustrates me on the one hand (why don’t you want to practice on your own?), but it also makes me sad. I hate that sports have become so competitive and the older teams travel only.

    2. I think you let her figure this out for herself. She’s old enough to understand that if she doesn’t work on her catching drills, she’s not going to get passed the ball. Failure or underperformance can be so self-instructive in a way that parental advice is not.

      1. This!!!!!!!

        Also I was a kid who liked a couple of sports and was fine but not great at them. I think I would have played a lot longer if my parents hadn’t repeatedly talked about how middling I was.

        Also why not just let her play in the in-town basketball league if that’s what she enjoys? Definitely let her figure this all out herself. It might be hard to see her disappointed, but this is a great opportunity for growth.

        1. OP here and I think I wasn’t clear- she’d be perfectly happy to be in the on-town leagues, and we would be happy for her to be there. She’s just aging out of them soon and I’m trying to figure out how to help her stay in sports generally when she doesn’t want to be really strong at any of them. Which, IMO, is fine!! But she is happy and healthy playing and I’d love to see her continue *some* sport.

          1. is it possible this is really more of a “I’ve never had to try at something before” situation that is just revealing itself through sports? School came very easily to me with like, zero effort in the elementary years, but of course other things like a sport did not, and it was a little strange to me to have to “try”. If she’s more of a “natural” at basketball then of course she’s in her comfort zone of being good without having to significantly practice.

          2. @ Cat- YES I think it is! She’s naturally smart and baseline strong so she doesn’t ever really have to try at things.

            So….any insight into helping her learn how to try?

            FWIW I am fine if the answer is to let her fail, but I’d hate to see her just quit all sports. She doesn’t want to quit. In fact, collegiate intramurals came up in conversation at some point (probably after laughing that we have no D1 athletes in the house) and she immediately said “yes! That’s what I want to do!!”

          3. Ahhh okay, I see the issue now. I wish I had suggestions— I don’t have kids and didn’t realize that casual teams for teenagers aren’t a thing anymore. That sucks.

          4. College intramurals are the best thing, ever. May I suggest track / running / Girls on the Run if it is in your town? There is something great for playing a sport for the joy and not needing to get better (by playing, you WILL get better). But “up or out” used to just be for the military and BigLaw and now it is for middle school sports.

          5. @Anonymous – can you try something new as a family so she can see you doing a bad job at first, but still having fun, and practicing to get better?

          6. I have one of these “everything comes too easily at first” kids. I tried everything, including enrolling her in challenging activities she enjoyed to motivate her to learn to work hard, and nothing worked. She quit literally everything once she hit the point where she actually had to work at it. To some degree it’s just personality-driven and you can’t parent them out of it. It drives me bananas because she wants to be the very best at everything but absolutely refuses to do the work to get there, and I think she’d be much happier if she just put in a little effort.

          8. Have you scoped out the middle school teams? At 11, she’s probably within a year of school teams. It depends on school and sport, but a decent/average player can usually make it onto some team. Not every team, so she may not get her favorite sport. If she’s tall, I think non-powerhouse schools for volleyball/basketball should have some spots for her since she’s already played for years.

            Also, she may not be able to make it onto more than one school team a year. I’d try to look for summer camps or encourage neighborhood pick up games if there really are no local leagues.

          9. I really appreciate @Cat’s perspective. I was one of those kids to whom everything came easy, so when I eventually came across physical skills that required practice (volleyball, ballroom dance), I thought I was bad at them and walked away embarrassed, even though I enjoyed them. I had to learn the lessons of persistence the hard way, as an adult.

            Looking back at what would have helped me as a child and teen, it is hard to say if encouragement to fail would have helped. But there was something about all the positive reinforcement I got for succeeding effortlessly, that led me to conclude I was “naturally” good at things, and so I kept searching for more things I was good at to do. I ended up spending way too many years in a PhD program just because I was good at it, instead of asking myself if I really enjoyed being an academic

      2. +1 I’m seeing this with my 8yo. I will point blank tell him that other kids are able to do X because they are outside in their yard practicing on their own time. I make clear that it’s totally fine if he doesn’t want to do that, sports should primarily be for fun, it’s his choice etc…but he doesn’t get to be at the “level” he wishes if he doesn’t practice.

        It’s hard when you can tell they have potential, but as long as you provide an environment conductive to practicing, it’s important that it be the child’s choice/initiative.

        1. +1. I went through this with my son and soccer. If he actually cared about practicing on his own, I think he could’ve held his own. But he didn’t, and by the time he was in late elementary and middle school, the gap was too great. He wasn’t interested in doing the rec teams because they were filled with random kids he didn’t know. Because the more gifted, or at least harder-working, players from his teams were all branching off into select and travel sports. I don’t have a great answer. Pushing him wasn’t helping matters at all. So that was the end of soccer and sports in general for him. He now does martial arts.

          1. I’m the mom with 8yo above and martial arts is a great option. Every belt level is a wide mix of ages, and there’s less pressure to move up or age out. It teaches confidence and builds strength, too

      5. This. This was me in a sport that I genuinely loved, and still very much do. I had to learn what it was liked to get cut from teams as I got to high school. It was really hard in the moment but I’m really glad my parents weren’t the ones to tell me to stop trying. I had a good relationship with them, but had that message come from them I’d have been resentful and angry. I think it was helpful (and I was a better player, though not THE best) for having to compete against these stronger athletes in tryouts and occasionally in seasons where I did make the team. I rode the bench a lot but we practiced together which made me better. I still have super fond memories of my time and the sport.

    3. My son was similar – naturally very coordinated and easily coached, but not willing to do any more outside of practice and not particularly driven/competitive on the field. At about age 12 – same as your kid – it was pretty clear he was not going to make the cut for his preferred sports the next year when they reduced the number of players pretty seriously at his travel teams level. For our location, that meant he moved to a totally different sport at the recreational level, and even there he was not the best player anymore. He went back to his fav sport as a rec player in late high school..and ended up reforming a team that had a lot of the players from his 3rd grade travel team and were now just a group of boys messing around for fun. As a parent it was really rough because he loved the team and his ego was really bruised, but he also wasn’t willing to put in the extra work the other kids were putting into it. In short, we really had to let him “fail” into something he liked but didn’t love and not at the ego-boosting level he had played at before. It was clear to us that he had to devote more time to and wasn’t willing. We were not going to go through arguing and forcing and dragging him away from video games/hanging out with friends/playing made-up games at the park (which we also thought were healthy for his age). There were tears but..it was the right call for us to let him learn that he couldn’t do what he wanted to without the extra work, and he had to ‘settle’ for being a good-enough player at the no-cut teams.

    4. No advice for the immediate situation but I’m so frustrated that recreational sports are not really a thing for older teens! I had the same experience 30 years ago. I stopped playing sports around when I entered high school and started up again 10 years later, after college, when adult participation sports were an option.

      1. Amen. So many girls drop spots wholesale at puberty. We need active kids and adults, not just sports for the best players.

      1. Because the rec league stops in middle school. You either play for the school or club or town travel (or several of the above).’town travel is the least commitment and it’s still try-out and pretty time consuming. She would make the least competitive town travel team, probably. Maybe.

    6. I was a similar kid and I did a variety of things as I got older. But I just…never doubled down on sports or got really into practicing or got very good. I was always mediocre to below average. I liked the exercise, hanging out with the team and enjoyed the mild competition of games. I worked very hard in other areas (debate, music) so it’s not like this applied in all areas of my life. I kept sports as my “fun” thing.

      I didn’t find sport shopping particularly helpful because the skill gap gets bigger as you get older. I stuck with a spring (softball) and fall (field hockey sport).

      – I played both in middle school on the middle school team’s that didn’t cut anyone.
      – In high school, I played JV field hockey for 3 years
      – I transitioned to recreational softball (town team) in high school.
      – I did join rec basketball as something new/fun in my junior year.
      – I also did other forms of physical activity (dance class during the school year; kickboxing in the summer).

      I also reconsidered track in high school, and joined the track team in the spring. It was more fun at that stage. It was used as an off season sport by athletes on other teams, so there was a “competitive group” of actual track athletes and then a “non competitive group” of people using it as conditioning/for fun. I learned how to throw the javelin and discus and joined with a group of friends. It was good exercise with a lot of self directed practice.

    7. I don’t know, but same. What’s frustrating is that there are no leagues for mediocre players who just like to play. Even the rec leagues get super competitive around 11 or 12. My kids like to play lots of sports, none at champion level. But there are no outlets for kids to try and enjoy sports without focusing on being the best. For basketball, I told my kids to just focus on pick up games, and they usually play a couple times a week. We are lucky because my ex lives in an apartment complex with families who are lower to middle class, which means there are a lot of kids who have time to play and aren’t shuttled back and forth to elite coaches and travel team practices. It’s a gift.

      1. Reading what you wrote here made me realize that these casual leagues/opportunities don’t exist because this is supposed to be the function of a neighborhood. For generations kids have gone outside and played sports for fun with other kids, no adults required. Now we are looking to formalize, with sign ups and rules and officials, yet another thing that should be organic and child-led. It’s a sad thing that kids aren’t around to hang out like this anymore.

      2. I’m the OP and there is so much targeted messaging about how girls quit sports at by 14. My kid watched one of the Super Bowl ads where Dove was saying it’s because girls are too self conscious. She was like “no, it because I don’t want to play travel or with little kids.”

        I even gave feedback to our town when she quit soccer after 3rd grade- she was a medium good player on a low ranked team, and they had us doing 2 practices and two games per week in a Travel league driving 1+ hour to play. It was nuts and the only option in town. She told me “I’d play once a week but it’s getting in the way of everything else.”

        I suggested a more local recreational league where surely we could cobble together girls in 4th-6th that want to play 1-2 times/week and go one or two towns over. I was coaching at the time and knew for sure I could field a team. I didn’t get any support from the league.

        1. THIS. It’s not about being self-conscious. It’s that those middle-of-the-road opportunities are nonexistent. And I’ve definitely seen the select-sport kids making fun of other kids for having the nerve of doing things at a less competitive level. Well, guess what? If a kid is at all susceptible to caring what their peers think, they don’t want to do those less competitive options anymore.

          1. 100% it was for me. Gymnastics and I needed a serious waxing. That I didn’t understand how to do at . . . 11. Shaving didn’t work. So swim team didn’t work, either. I was probably too tall to be good at gymnastics but I self-selected out because I felt too awkward and didn’t know how to ask for help (and my mom didn’t understand that sort of grooming, so I’d have been stuck anyway).

          2. USAG recently revised its rules a couple of years ago so girls can wear shorts in competition. My daughter’s gym was resistant but the moms revolted so they added optional shorts to the team uniform.

        2. yup! there was actually a local high school teen writing a paper about how this is contributing to the obesity epidemic amongst kids. you can’t just do anything for fun. you must be the best, go faster, score more points, etc. etc.

          1. What’s interesting is that we as a society are so kind to adults who want to experiment with new activities, and we are so mean to kids.

          2. My 14-year-old has expressed similar things. These kids have gotten the message that if they can’t be great at something, don’t do it at all. I see how some parents act during low-stakes recreational competitions, and the attitudes can be appalling. They’re in 3rd grade, Brad, they’re gonna serve it into the net sometimes.

          4. The culture of organized sports *in general* is contributing to the obesity epidemic. Kids would get much more exercise running around the neighborhood for an hour than waiting in lines to do drills at t-ball practice. Once we involved adults and rules in playtime we took away a lot of the fun. But the genie seems to be out of the bottle.

          5. Ohhhh — I agree with this. I put my 4 year old son in both OT and gymnastics because he had gross motor delays. I sat through a ton of these classes and therapy sessions, and eventually pulled him out because it seemed like he was actually engaging in more activity/physical play for an hour at the playground than in either class/session. I do think this changes as they get older — obviously gymnastics looks different for a 10 year old than it does a 4 year old, but he definitely gets more out of park time than he does controlled, teacher directed classes or therapy sessions.

        3. I took my daughter to a “growing up” class taught by a pediatrician. She talked about how around age 12 rapid growth etc. often makes girls feel clumsy, lose skills, etc. and give up sports, but that if they just stick it out for a couple more years everything is fine again.

        4. What about volleyball? In my town, (which honestly sounds so similar to yours I actually wondered if you were my good friend posting about her daughter), rec volleyball doesn’t really start until 5th/6th grade — so you don’t really have the contingency that has been playing year round since they were 4 (I see you, soccer) with private coaches already (I see you, baseball and lacrosse), and it’d be a good sport for a tall, strong kid. Not a ton you can do to train for it solo at this level either, so I don’t think kids scale way up or down like they do in basketball or lacrosse. See if she can talk a friend or two into joining a local rec team with her.

    8. This was me (granted, almost 30 years ago). I enjoyed slow-pitch softball, but wasn’t good enough (and didn’t care to) progress to fast pitch. I played in the local rec slow pitch league until I aged out.

      I tried out for basketball twice in JR high and never made it. In HS, I switched to marching band and cheerleading (non-competitive/didn’t have to tumble). A lot of people who didn’t do HS sports played in church league basketball. So maybe look around for more relaxed leagues?

      1. Me, too! My lackluster softball career ended when I aged out of slow pitch. I was able to pick up slow pitch again as an adult … 10 years later.

        Volleyball and basketball fizzled out around the same time. It was fine. I was still very involved in other school activities. I enjoyed biking and running on my own for physical activity. I just wasn’t part of a team starting around age 13 or 14.

    9. Any chance there’s ultimate frisbee? My daughter was similar to yours and transitioned from lacrosse to ultimate in 6th grade.

      The ultimate community is really inclusive. There’s a very strong ethos promoting good sportsmanship. My daughter is still playing as a college sophomore.

    10. My kid was not the best player on the team. She was on high school and club. She was defense and got scored on pretty often. She was not recruited for college play, which she had the sense to decide around her sophomore year that she would not be pursuing. She still really enjoyed her time on both teams and looks back fondly on her experiences through the end of high school.

      Your daughter will figure it out. I know you want your kid to win and to be the best, but there’s not a lot more you can do. Let her lead on this.

      1. I’m the OP and I think you misread my post. I don’t care if she wins and I can already tell you she won’t be the best- and doesn’t care. I want her to keep playing and enjoying herself.

    11. Would she have any interest in more individualized sports or sports outside of school? Thinking of me and my brother, I rode horses and he played golf. Both of these are great because it’s a wide range of participation/competitiveness levels–you can be as casual or competitive as you want. (Incidently, I think these are also the two sports kids are most likely to continue as adults–which both my brother and I have). My brother was on the golf team in high school, but because it was a pretty rare sport for teenagers, there wasn’t a lot of competition to be on the team. My brother is a perfectly fine hobbyist golfer, but another guy on the team now plays on the PGA, to give you an idea of the wide range of skills. Of course, these are also two very expensive sports…(I think my parents really regret the day I quit swimming and took up riding)

    12. Has she tried rock climbing? It’s very much a “put into it what you want, get out of it what you put in, have fun regardless” type of sport. If she wants the “team” experience she can join a youth team, which is also a great place to meet buddies to climb with outside of practice.

      1. Was coming to suggest the same. Or other types of sports where you can just take classes and don’t have to be on a team like yoga, dance, gymnastics, or they are more informal, like hiking or mountain, biking, or skiing or skateboarding. If she just likes being active, maybe those are things she can do with friends without being on a formal team. I’m sorry this is so hard! It shouldn’t be.

        And she might be a bit young for this, but another idea is whether there are any chill teams or multi week sessions of sports at the YMCA, a rec center, or a community college near you?

    13. Helicopter much? Stay out of it. She will either work harder or decide to do something else.

        1. Yeah, really. All the “let them fail on their own” posters seem clueless about the realities of raising kids. Parenting involves providing some guidance.

    14. LAX mom here – 12yo boy, but could have co-written your post. We set mandatory daily time on the pass back. He moaned and groaned, but it was a massive skill improvement in just a year. Getting from “no one will pass to me” to being a player on the team flipped his viewpoint and his attitude toward the sport. Sometimes we just have to do the work.

    15. Coming in late here. I played DI sports and was a national champion, so…this may be too hard core.

      What she needs is not a “thanks for showing up, here’s a participation trophy”, but a coach that is coaching to win and has very high expectations and the skills to teach improvements. This means the coaches need to stop saying, “Great job, Becky, you’ll get them next time” and instead say, for instance, “Becky, when your left shoulder is facing this left and your right foot is back, and someone runs a pic on you to the left, you need to pivot your right foot forward and lean in with your shoulder to their middle collarbone” or whatever. Coaching needs to be that specific. (For the record, the above is a completely hypothetical example….but you get my drift.

      Better coaching leads to better athletes. If your daughter doesn’t want to be better, there’s no real way to teach “ball-want” or “hustle”. Some kids are going to kill themselves to get to the ball, or to score, and some just want to be on the court, while others are hustling.

      So my rec–push her to play _above_ her ability, and see if she steps up. If she doesn’t, then that’s your answer–she may just be a participant instead of a star. But she may really blossom. Also, remember that high schools have frosh-soph and JV teams…not everyone needs to be college bound.

      The goal of MS and HS sports is to show up and learn to be a team player, get along with others, take direction from the coach–it’s not to win the league. Those are the valuable lessons your daughter will learn whether she’s a star or a benchwarmer.

  9. How do I encourage/coach my spouse to be kinder/more thoughtful. He’s a good person, we share the same values, he’s a good father. We’re in the thick of the baby/little kid phase, but we generally enjoy each other’s company. He’s just really bad at being thoughtful/doing nice things for me.

    1. Ugh, I’m sorry. That’s really hard. In my best friend’s experience, you unfortunately can’t teach it. She’s tried everything to get her husband to simply say “thank you, this dinner is great” or “you’re a great mom” and he will not, ever. They’ve been to counseling and she said the only reason she isn’t divorcing him is because she doesn’t want to share custody. Hate to be a downer, but I have to be honest that in this example of one, there has been no progress. I will say, though, that he is a uniquely weird case and maybe others will have positive stories to share.

    2. This post rubs me so the wrong way. You aren’t taking ANY responsibility for your own feelings – you’re putting it all on him. “He’s doing everything to be a great dad and employee at work, but he isn’t buying me flowers like he used to when we were dating.” I highly encourage you to read the Five Love Languages book (I know people here have issues with it, but it’s a global bestseller for a reason) and go to therapy to learn how to articulate your needs like an emotionally healthy adult, rather than talking about “coaching” your spouse (gross).

      1. This is a bit of an overreaction IMHO. There is no reason to assume that the OP has not already used her words, and had it fall on deaf ears.

        Your spouse can choose to show love to you in ways you find meaningful, or he can choose to have a mediocre marriage. There is no option where he refuses to meet basic emotional needs and has a good marriage.

        1. Agree with this. Obviously, the answer is to ask for what you need/want: “Sweetheart, it would mean the world to me if you would do XYZ thing once a day/month/week.” If you have done that, if you have been very clear, and the requests are reasonable, then sadly the reason he isn’t doing it is because he just doesn’t want to. And there’s no coaching that will fix that.

          My next step was to try not to want/need what I wanted/needed. Spoiler alert: That’s not really possible. We limped along like that for years and I finally left and boy, was he ever surprised!

      3. She is absolutely asking for advice on how to articulate her own needs. I’m stunned that your first reaction was to blame and shame her and put words in her mouth. Gross.

        1. Because he IS being thoughtful — OP says he’s a good person, good father, she enjoys his company. OP is upset that he’s not doing it in the way she wants, which is valid, but also she needs to appreciate the thoughtfulness as it comes.

      4. It rubs me the wrong way too. It seems awfully princessey and entitled. My husband buys me half-dead flowers from the grocery store maybe once a year, is terrible at choosing gifts, doesn’t plan dates even when I ask him to as a birthday treat, etc. But he makes me coffee every morning and pulls his weight around the house. It’s those everyday things that really matter.

        1. Just because you’ve accepted it, doesn’t mean everyone has to lower their standards.

          1. I would much rather have a husband who makes me my caffeinated beverage of choice every morning and picks up after himself than somebody who makes showy but ultimately shallow demonstrations of love that society tells us we’re supposed to be grateful for.

          2. I think buying half dead flowers and refusing to plan anything for her birthday (despite being *asked*) is actually a deep demonstration of contempt. But whatever! People aren’t entitled because they want different things.

        2. They really matter to you. That’s great. People are allowed to want/need different things.

    3. I agree with the other post that says you both need to identify your love languages and share them with each other. Then you need to have an open, honest conversation about how you’re going to “speak” each others language.

      If words of affirmation are important to you, then you need to point blank say that. He can’t read you mind or hints you’re giving.

      On the flip side, you need to speak his languages too. It’s hard if it’s not something that comes naturally to you, but both of you need to work on that if each person in the relationship is going to feel loved.

    4. what are some examples? Like how are you kind and thoughtful to him that you’re not seeing in return?

    5. Since you’re in the thick of it, here are some things that worked for me when we were in that stage, last year.
      1) go on dates – I know it’s hard to find a babysitter blah blah blah. Find a way to make it work.
      2) ask for what you need – “hey Mother’s Day is coming up: I would like you to buy me X.” Or “I would like a day to myself. Please arrange child care.” Or whatever.
      3) do stuff for yourself – I bought myself flowers whenever I felt like it.
      4) I have found that when I put extra effort into being kind and thoughtful toward my spouse, he reciprocates without me having to request it outright. Or maybe I just become less resentful? “Be the change you want to see in the world.” Also applies to relationships.

      1. +1 to all of this, as a mom to a toddler with a kind but not super attentive to detail husband. I also found that I need to be wayyy more explicit about what I want than I think I need to be. Like “mother’s day is coming up. I would like to go to XYZ restaurant around X time. Just me, you and DD. Please do not invite your parents, but I’m happy to celebrate with your mom later in the day”. If I just say “ hey please plan something special for mother’s day” I may be disappointed.

        1. Oh yeah, I had lots of gift/holiday disappointment with my husband in the early days of our relationship when I was still expecting him to be a mind reader. Now I get out in front of things, send him links for gift giving occasions, say what I would like to do for Mother’s Day. You have to say what you want, OP!

    6. I guess I’d say just be careful he’s not modeling that for your kids. As an example, I do most of the cooking here (husband does almost everything else, I’m serious) but I expect people who eat my cooking to day thank you or that was good. To me, it’s basic manners. My daughter’s boyfriend eats with us all the time and never says thank you. He wasn’t raised to do that. I’m not mad at him, I just feel bad for his own mother, who also does all of the cooking (and everything else.)

      So when my kids were little I’d remind my husband to say thanks for dinner in front of the kids. I know it feels better when it’s spontaneous, but you have to communicate very directly about what you want.

      1. Conversely, I find it very condescending and fake when guests at my house always say how good the food is. I was not raised in a “thank you for cooking” culture and frankly I don’t care if my children thank me for meals. I expect them to be polite and not insult the food or whine for different things, but just as I’m not going to praise them for every chore I don’t expect it as a benchmark. We definitely do say it sometimes, and when we remark on how good the food is I know it’s genuine!

        1. +1! Frankly, I hate that my husband wants to be thanked for doing basic chores that are just part of the responsibility of existing. Especially because he certainly does less than half of them.

          1. I think that’s just polite and a recognition that someone did work for my/ the collective family benefit. I also absolutely believe kids should be taught to say thank you for even routine actions of others. Do they thank strangers who serve meals to then at restaurants? If so, they should do so at home.

            My husband and I always thank each other for basic chores (when we notice or remember – if we are crazy busy and take it for granted for a bit that is fine too). I just don’t understand why be more polite to strangers being paid to do something versus your own family contributing to everyone’s wellbeing. Obviously just my perspective.

        2. I think that’s a shortfall in their upbringing. OF COURSE your kids should thank the host for a meal when they are at someone’s house. Wow.

        3. What an uncharitable view! But then, I grew up in a family where we showed (genuine) appreciation for each other so my perception is very different here. Yeah the chores need to get done, but what harm is there in saying thank you or well done for a job especially well done? My mom did all the cooking growing up and my dad would always thank her for the meal. It wasn’t fake at all; he was truly appreciative of her efforts. As their kid, it was just one way they modeled a respectful relationship and the value in seeing and acknowledging the efforts of people you care about.

          1. Right. My husband makes tea for me every morning when he’s making his own, and I thank him every single morning without fail. Every morning of our lives.

            I find it disheartening that people are so stubborn or unhappy that they will cling to not saying basic thank yous as their right, and that they’re raising their children that way!

          2. You are making a lot of assumptions. In our family we show we appreciate each other by each pitching in around the house and doing other thoughtful acts, but saying “thanks” specifically for meals every night is not what we do. But I’m never on here complaining that my husband never helps me and my kids are drags, so to each their own (in fact, OP admitted she does nothing but make dinner so it feels a little strange she needs her thank yous every night).

            I don’t see where you got that we don’t say thank you when we are guests or in restaurants, but we do. I was specifically remarking on the inauthenticity of always raving about the food (which my husband and all his siblings do while we sit there eating boiled asparagus…and it rings so fake). I’ll teach my children to be polite but authentic, thank you.

          3. That’s a lot like saying “we don’t teach table manners at home, we just use them in restaurants.” It doesn’t work that way. You practice correct behaviors every day at home.

          4. Saying thank you for passing the salt is a table manner, saying thank you for making the meal in your own home is a family preference. My kids are also smart enough to understand nuance and that different response are expected at different times. But glad you are perfect!

      2. Hm! my mom made every single meal for 3 kids + a husband for years (like 10+ years) and didn’t expect “thank you” for a day to day chore. A special meal or something exceptional, or as a guest, sure. But we’d be saying “thank you” 3 meals a day, which seems…excessive.
        I guess if the person cooking is going out of the way to do it, it’s special or it was a lot of effort, but “thank you” for Campbell’s soup and a peanut butter sandwich (or whatever basic, simple meals) feels weird! Like very formal and stiff.
        Having said that, I try to thank my husband for anything I asked him to do, and periodically thank/acknowledge his contributions even if they’re ordinary everyday chores.

          2. Perhaps at this point you might want to thank her for all those thousands of meals over the years? I guarantee she won’t think it’s excessive!

        2. OMG poor you! You might have had to say thank you up to THREE times a day! I don’t know how you survived that hellhole.

          What does saying thank you to someone take away from you?

    7. I’d really think hard about what you’re missing out on. If you want him to be a person who spontaneously buys you chocolates that’s different than wanting him to be a person who remembers to say goodbye when he leaves the house. If you haven’t already I’d sit down and say hey these things are really important to me. If it’s more the spontaneous gifting deficit than one of basic respect and kindness, I’d be clear that this is a you thing – which is fine – not that he has some moral failing.

    8. Let me ask ya: are there specific “triggers” for feeling upset/slighted/hurt/unhappy? Like maybe books, movies, tv, social media? I’m asking because sometimes spending time on “complaint-tok” specifically about how terrible husbands are, can sometimes make me crabby even though my husband is a truly kind, giving person.
      Or conversely, are you feeling left out and hurt after seeing someone’s “just because it’s tuesday” flowers or “10 year upgrade” ring?
      If so, I’d chalk it up to comparison is the thief of joy/be here now/blah blah woo-woo and try to be kind and practice acceptance.
      But if it’s a consistent theme and a constant feeling, I’d sit him down and explain that those gestures and actions are the dollar by dollar deposits in the “marriage bank account” and when you need that “money” for a rainy day (someone’s sick, loses a job, goes through a hard time) it will be really worth it having all that goodwill built up.

    9. I see the replies you’ve gotten so far are all over the place… I don’t have a great answer. But I’ve been married twice and developed some opinons based on that experience.

      First of all, I used to believe it’s possible to coach a partner to be some other way, and I no longer believe that. Over time, I switched my attention to articulating for myself (first) what my needs are — not the wants, but the things like those Senior Attorney described trying and failing to go without. Then I learned how to ask for those things, in non-blaming ways.

      A lot of people seem to believe there’s a trick to asking in the right way. I no longer believe that, either. Because with my ex-husband I’m pretty confident I asked in reasonable ways, and our couples therapist agreed (and so did my ex-, eventually, years after the divorce). One day I understood that for stuff he didn’t want to do it didn’t matter how I asked. That was an unpleasant realization, which took me some additional years to act on.

      I’m in agreement with the comments who ask if you’ve identified specifically what kind of thoughtful things you need him to do for you. And I encourage you to ask, in couples therapy if necessary. And then I encourage you to believe whatever response you get, and decide if you can live with it.

  10. Any recs for lunch on the Upper West Side of Manhattan near the Museum of Natural History? Our family is on the far east side so we never really go over there, but we’re going to the museum today and might get lunch over there beforehand. We have kids who are fairly picky eaters so American/Italian/Mexican are probably the best bets. We love Shake Shack but we have one in our home city now so prefer to go somewhere new. Thanks!

      1. I went to the Central Park South location a few weeks ago when I was visiting family in the city; it was just OK. Food did come out fast and was hot, but our server never returned after the food was brought out. There were at least 4 other staff standing in a corner chatting while I tried to flag someone down to bring the check. Mediocre food for the high cost and sub-par service.

    3. There is a great Mexican place right nearby called Covacha, though if you want more standard kid friendly Mexican, I would walk down a bit to Playa Betty’s.

      Alternatively, there is Good Enough To Eat for kid-friendly pancakes/lunch (neighborhood classic) or Motorino for pizza.

  11. I seem to fall in a pattern of dating wonderful guys who live outside my state. Like, 600 miles away outside my state. Last two serious relationships I had: met in person (meet cute style), the other person was living temporarily in/regularly visiting my Midwest state due to work, start seeing each other seriously including a couple flights per month, daydream about one of us relocating (never just me or just him, both have entertained moving and I’ve also thought about it), and then eventually I end it 2-4 years in because neither of us really want to move or can’t “see” the future with continued flights and scheduling. I know some people make this work for decades but I think if I date I want to be with someone local. This has happened twice which has now taken 8 years of my life. I do not want kids and am meh on marriage, but my stance is changing a bit to if I’m going to take time and energy to date, I landed on declining non-local men. Of course a month ago, I met someone at a volunteer event who lives 900 miles away, is charming and single and would love to get dinner and spend time together every time he’s in my town, which is scheduled to be a week a month for a 3-year contract. And I find myself daydreaming about our conversations and I’m attracted to him. Sigh. I don’t know what I’m hoping for. Maybe willpower to snap out of long distance habits? Maybe love stories? I’m 38, I feel like I should have this figured out…

    1. The pro and con of long-distance relationships turning into more is you don’t have to deal with daily drudgery together. Every visit is like a mini vacation. You don’t have to really build your daily life around the other person, do chores together, deal with laundry, etc. Dates are infrequent so there’s a bigger budget for food & activities than you’d have seeing each other regularly.

      If you want to see how you’d be in the same place, longer visits do help with that since while you can clear 2 weekends a month, say, pretty easily, there’s no putting off most things for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    2. Advice: do not wait four years to cut it off. If neither of you can seriously see moving for the other by the six-month mark, it is just an annoying and rough way of casually dating.

      Also consider if there is something about “unavailable” men that you find to be attractive.

    3. Sounds like you’re conveniently spending time with unavailable men to prevent the heartbreak that could come with someone available to you. Hard as it may be, just stop entertaining dating someone who doesn’t live where you do. You already know you’re not the person willing to move and make that work, which is absolutely fine and normal. Put a local geography search parameter into whatever app you’re using and date locally. Marriage is wonderful and it’s not too late, I met my husband after 40.

    4. Since you know that you don’t want to be in a long-distance relationship, don’t enter into one.

      It’s that simple.

      Not emotionally easy or without feeling a loss, but actually quite simple.

      1. Exactly this.

        To me it sounds like you kind of enjoy the longing and yearning aspect of a LDR…it’s fun to fantasize without actually having to put in the work of a real relationship.

    5. I think there are multiple things that could be appealing to you about a long distance relationship – the unavailability; the fact that you know you both want to move so it will never progress to be more serious; you don’t need to integrate the person into your daily life/routines and can maintain your independence/don’t need to factor the other person’s needs into your daily life; etc.

      I think it’s worth it to do some thinking (on your own or in therapy) about why this style of relationship is so appealing to you, and if you can achieve some of those things in a relationship with someone local that could progress.

    6. It sounds like you’re trying to turn flings into relationships. It’s ok to have flings. You have to turn off the “this is my boyfriend now” thoughts and actions and just enjoy a fling for what it is.

      Geographically unsuitable men are just unsuitable. Most men are unsuitable, as SA says, for one reason or another. If geography is important to you, and it sounds like it is, then that’s another criterion you need to be selective about.

    7. I dunno, sounds like you need therapy. (I say as somebody who has been there.) There’s a pattern, you should figure out why and work on changing it.

    8. It seems like there’s something about the potential in these relationships that (a) you find appealing, and (b) keeps you on the hook longer than your goals suggest would be wise. I get it, and other people have pointed out potential pros, so I won’t ask you about that. But I am wondering what happens when you meet local and available men — do you ever see the potential there? If not, why do you think that is?

    9. I moved 2,000 miles away for my boyfriend . Plans to move were made around the 6th month mark of being official & happened a year in. Got married 4 years in. Maybe key was being in a transitional area of life — graduating and looking for a new job anyway. It was unexpected as I wasn’t from the outset planning to move but we were both “open” to it. Also risky to move having spent a limited amount of time together, but waiting too long is difficult/problematic too.

      Just chiming in to say sometimes it works. Maybe be very realistic about willingness to move early on?

  12. I’m leaving for London next week for a 10 day work trip. Most of my evenings are busy with colleagues, but I have two nights free and a full day Saturday. I feel like I have done most of the touristy sites on previous visits (including most museums) so I would love to hear any recommendations for off the beaten path activities, restaurants, or shops. I’m a history and literary nerd so any of those types of ideas are most welcome. Thanks!

    1. Have you been to the Charles Dickens Museum? If you love history and literature that combines both perfectly. I’d recommend the London Review of Books shop for great books and really excellent cake (it’s near the British Museum). Also Hatchards and Waterstones on Piccadilly, Daunt Books in Marylebone and Foyles on Charing Cross Road for book shopping. If you’re in the City, the London Mithraeum is an interesting place for a short visit – it’s an ancient Roman temple that was discovered and excavated in the 1950s. Oh, and Westminster Cathedral (not to be confused with the Abbey!) is also well worth a visit. An off-the-beaten track activity – if you’re feeling active, you can climb the O2 (previously known as the Millennium Dome).

    3. The Harry Potter studio/museum just outside London is AMAZING – actual sets, props, costumes, and tons of good information. There are busses running there several times a day. It was our family’s favorite activity in London (above all other museums). It was that well done.

    4. I had an amazing miso apple danish at Arome, a Japanese French bakery in Covent garden this am.

    6. Theater? When I first went to London, more than 30 years ago (oy, I am old), we saw a play at the Royal Shakespeare and it was fabulous. (And when an older English gentleman sitting just in front of us turned to his companion after the last act and pronounced the show “jolly good,” we were unreasonably delighted.) And of course, there are all the theaters in the West End. My kid is 29 but still vividly remembers seeing Wicked there at age 12.

    7. Commenting late, but the tour at the British Library is great, Sir John Soane Museum is underrated, and if there is a museum late night at basically any museum while you are there it’s worth it (full access to the museums, lighter crowds, basically no children, and often a bar). Also putting in a plug for Kiln which continues to be one of my favorite restaurants ever. C-tails at Coupette in Bethnal Green are worth the train ride.

    8. The Gower street Waterstone’s is very lovely if you like bookshops. Kew Gardens for walks and flowers.

      The George Inn pub in Southwark is next door to where Chaucer and the pilgrimages set out for Canterbury.

      The Barbican is a fantastic and complex centre, both with the gardens and the culture on offer.

      Kensal Green Cemetery is very interesting, and has literary connections.

  13. Music people — I have a Q for you. I played the violin growing up and was good but never going to Carnegie Hall. I played in a small orchestra near my very small home town and loved group playing. I dropped it after high school but started playing as an adult (just in first position, but it largely works for me). One kid wasn’t interested in music and one kid started playing at 11 in middle school on a whim. We have done anything local that her teacher wanted us to do and this year kiddo auditioned and got slots at a regional and then a state orchestra. High school is next year; kiddo doesn’t want to be a musician but enjoys playing. School orchestra is still a thing but it’s not clear to me what it looks like to help connect her to what she loves without becoming the orchestra equivalent of a Crazy Sports Parent. At most, she thinks, in college, she would take music performance and composition classes (she likes to compose), maybe try to get gigs playing at weddings (kid is motivated by our outrageous COL to make $) maybe in a quartet, but major in something like finance at a large SEC or ACC type school. She has gone to one summer music camp that she liked (but it was based on teacher recommendations not auditions and I think it’s probably too late for this summer anyway). I’m not quite sure what my question is, but if you were like this kiddo, what were great things for you vs OMG this is torture or soul-crushing vs life changing in a good way?

    1. ok your kid is 12. At 12 I thought I was going to be a chemist. I am a lawyer. So ease off on planning her college major based on a hobby she happens to have some talent at!

      I was a “music kid” in school and that meant participating in my high school’s band and orchestra, playing in the pit orchestra for musicals, taking private lessons, playing in a quartet organized by the private teacher (seasonal – I think spring since fall was marching band season). I was good enough to win seats in the district & regional bands but those were 2 weekends a year and still within around a 30-45 minute drive, not anything super burdensome – is yours different? In college I played casually for a bit, like being in the pit for a musical, but didn’t keep it up, and that was ok.

      1. Sorry — no one is pushing her to have a major. She was responding to a big push in our district for the good music kids to go to an arts magnet high school. She really recoiled at that — lots of pressure to pursue it professionally and to give up everything else she does to be in an orchestra for musical theater productions that the school also does. So she is going to a basic high school to be everykid, just with this on the side. But high school is also so different than what I recall — so many tracks, etc. IDK if music even comes largely from outside lessons and groups or it is school-focused (like marching band is a clear path and strings just seem very different).

        1. there are more opportunities typically for wind & percussion instruments than strings in a typical HS. Marching band & concert band are obvious, but both orchestra and pit orchestra also include wind instruments & percussion, usually for the top X kids from band. Jazz band is also an option for winds & percussion. Most kids who want to be good take private lessons even if technically they receive some through the music department during school.

        2. It depends a lot on the school. Whether or not the school has a strong program, the students who get opportunities outside of school and go on to continue in music with high school will be taking private lessons, participating in youth orchestras, attending summer programs, etc. Participation in school music is typically required for most of these outside opportunities. Some high schools have fantastic programs with top ensembles that perform at a high level and even AP or IB theory courses. Many others, like our local high school, have mediocre programs that are geared more towards having fun, which makes them anything but fun for serious musicians who want focused, fast-paced rehearsals, challenging repertoire, and rewarding performances.

      2. Haha I missed that she’s not even in high school yet. She’s 12, Mom. Calm down! You’re talking about college majors already. Knock it off. You are teetering on becoming that mom you don’t want to be. Let her join high school orchestra and do her thing. Let her lead.

    2. I’m old, so things may have changed, but my parents were very hands off once I was old enough to drive and I arranged all my lessons, what I auditioned for, etc. I got most of my placements via word of mouth. I loved it in HS and played professionally for several years and THEN went to college for music. It burnt me right out. Took the fun straight out of it. Four years of music school will make you want to do nothing else or anything but. I fell into the anything but camp. At the college level, courses like composition are generally restricted to majors. Picking up a double major in music is a TREMENDOUS time suck, especially for voice, piano and violin folks. Perhaps there are schools that are a little more relaxed, but the culture tends to be all-or-nothing at that level.

      1. Thanks — this is very helpful. I guess is this shades of the sports Q above, but I do think that music maybe operates on a medium level a bit better, but you do have to run your own race. Kiddo’s music teacher was out on leave this quarter (final middle school quarter; the sub is just a sub and not a music teacher) so we have just picked up a local private teacher (so maybe we will keep that up over the summer since the orchestras take summer off — we won’t even get her high school classes until August, so she may not even have it in school). Kiddo is 2 years out from driving. She keeps trying to organize a band with her friends but that (violin + kalimba + flute / piano + one other thing) seems to become a trip to the boba tea place to brainstorm.

        1. As an adult, depending on where you live there may be tons of music and music-adjacent opportunities at the community level. In my small town, there aren’t really performance opportunities for the instrument I played professionally, but I love musical theatre and have a blast working on productions in various other capacities (the company isn’t big enough for an orchestra). I’ve lived in places were there were really fun, fairly casual community bands. I’ve also lived where there’s a large music school, so more talented players than there are jobs locally. Many of these folks who stay local become SAHP, and the community band/theatre organizations operate at a much higher level. On one hand, they do some absolute bangers of performances, but on the other hand, they exclude those who work or desire a more casual environment.
          Lastly, if you’re religious, church music also allows for lots of performance opportunities as an adult.
          I’m glad she’s having fun and hope that remains her vibe with music for a long, long time.

        2. Real talk here: Making all-state in middle school does not mean much. If she is even halfway serious about music, she needs to be taking private lessons from a good teacher year-round at this point. The best options will usually be members of your city’s professional symphony and/or faculty at local universities. Most of them teach privately on the side. Also look into youth orchestra programs. For wind players these are incredibly competitive, but for strings there are usually lots of spots and multiple levels. Youth orchestra is fun because it’s much more serious than school orchestra and you get to perform better repertoire with better colleagues and conductors.

      2. As someone who double-majored, I co-sign all of this. I majored in music at a top music school because I wanted to keep doing music as long as I could, which in my mind was college graduation. I was only able to fit in a second major because I came in with more than a year of AP credits and had very few GE requirements, and the second major I chose had minimal lower-division prerequisites, no labs, etc. If I’d chosen a more intense second major it wouldn’t have been possible to graduate in four years even with all the APs. Knowing I was not going to pursue a professional career also made it very difficult to put in the intense effort required to really shine in the music program. I made it through, unlike many of the other kids who started in my cohort, but it was rough. After college I was so burned out that I put my instrument away and did nothing else musical for years. Two decades later I started voice lessons and began performing on a serious amateur basis as a singer. I still haven’t managed to start practicing my instrument again despite several tries during the pandemic. I have a lot of regrets and “what ifs” in both directions–what if I hadn’t majored in music and had pursued a different academic major? On the other hand, what if I’d really taken music seriously?

        It is probably easier to double in music at a school without a strong music program, but your child may be disappointed by the level of the performance ensembles at one of these schools.

        1. I have an art kid who loved drawing but pursuing it as a discipline really rubbed her the wrong way. She did go to an art-focused school for a while but found that it really favored the performing kids. Now, she takes a weekly lesson, no art in school, and just draws for fun and is so much happier. She really just does her art for her now.

          1. 100%. My husband was “class artist,” painted the senior mural, was pushed into the art track in HS. He pushed back hard, went to a SLAC and became an engineer. He is still a good artist!

    3. My kids were both band and orchestra kids. Me too. My husband is a musician as well, of the bar band variety.

      We paid for bi-weekly lessons for our kids outside of whatever they got from music classes at school. My one kid who got lessons taken away because he would never, ever practice is the strongest musician today, as a college student. Neither kid took any music classes in college outside of a music appreciation type class for GE credit. Both are still in college. I think my non-practicing son is probably the more innately talented musician of the two of them, but I’m still glad they both had a connection to music in that way.

      I could see my daughter taking piano lessons as an adult, as I did, when she’s done with her graduate program and can commit some time to it. I don’t think not playing in college necessarily closes any doors.

    4. I have two people in my life who are great examples of two tracks. Both probably had similar levels of skill but one had parents who were way more Into It than the other. Let’s call them Molly and Samantha. Molly’s parents paid for private lessons, she opted to go to one or two music camps but also played sports and had a normal summer job and basically lived her life, of which music was a part. She did play in the orchestra at school and did several of the ‘honors’/audition only orchestras (NYSSMA stuff, if you’re in New York). She’s now an adult who happily plays with a community band and occasionally does a favor and plays at a wedding with a few friends who do strings. She has a successful VP-type job.

      Samantha’s parents really pushed her to her ‘full potential’ from the time she was young. Think – all the music camps all summer, all the excelling orchestras, then a selective music school, then a master’s degree in chamber music. She had chronic tendonitis from practicing and at least one surgery by the time she was in her mid-20’s. She basically graduated and was so burned out on music that she’s now working at a medispa after taking a separate course. Basically, I think the low key friend was overall happier, more successful and is now more musical.

    5. So she’s 13, and she started playing her instrument at 11? Let her keep exploring!

      I started playing at 9, and I was the top musician for my instrument in the state, first chair in the All State orchestra in high school. I thought I wanted to major in music and be a musician. I took 1 music class, my first semester of college, and realized it wasn’t for me. I continued to play in several orchestras as extracurriculars, but my career ambitions changed, and that’s ok.

    6. A lot of colleges have performance ensembles that anyone can join. I went to a large tech school, and a ton of kids had played in band/orchestra in high school and kept playing for fun in college. I think it was even a for-credit class.
      I played violin all the way through high school and put it away for 10 years. A couple years ago I picked it back up and starting taking lessons again. There are a few community orchestras around that I thought about joining. I stopped a few months ago because of my schedule, but I’m glad I did it. The music road is long and winding but there are lots of options.

      1. The quality and availability of these ensembles really varies by school. I went to a school with a top music program. You could only be in the “good” choir, the orchestra, or the wind ensemble if you were a music major. These groups were extremely good. Auditions for the concert band and the second choir were open to non-majors. The concert band was meh but the second choir was quite good. I don’t recall whether marching band was auditioned. Anecdotally, I hear that ensembles at schools without strong music programs are not often very good, and at some colleges they are downright disappointing for kids who come from high schools with strong music programs.

        I know of at least one liberal arts college with a very strong music program where ensembles and lessons are open to students from all majors. That would be my choice for a kid who likes performing but does not want to major in music.

        Music, incidentally, is quite challenging academically. My music theory courses were harder than any law school or Ph.D.-level econ course I ever took, partly because my law and econ professors never asked me to compose music. A lot of kids who start out majoring in music quit after they see what theory and music history courses really entail, even (especially?) kids who go in thinking they want to be composers.

        1. I didn’t find my music major to be academically challenging – it was the butt-in-seat time requirement that killed me and didn’t leave time for challenging courses outside of music. It wasn’t at all uncommon to have to be physically present from 9AM until 10PM, with loads of zero and one credit courses, ensembles, recital attendance requirements, and more.
          I was fortunate to come to it with maybe a little more grounding in the academic side of music study than others, but not much. The class work didn’t have anything on slogging through o-chem or an algorithms course.

          1. Huh. In my experience and in the experience of my friends who attended other schools, the music courses were quite rigorous in addition to being time-consuming. I have a friend who tells the story of how his supervising professor told him to make sure he failed at least half the kids in the freshman ear training class he taught as a grad student, and that wasn’t even at an elite school.

    7. She has been playing for a year with no private lessons and you are planning for her to attend a specialized music high school or to study music in college?1?

      Carnegie Hall is a big joke. Anyone can pay to play there.

    8. Hi Mom. Your daughter likes music . Great! The best hobby and outlet for finding lifelong friends and artistic / emotional gratification of anything I have done. I did all the orchestras/private lessons/chamber music and gigging in high school/all-state/music camps and double majored in music and biology and went to med school. Music was my release, but did take up a lot of time, but it saved my sanity!

      She has barely begun. I can’t believe you are talking about ?taking composition classes in college or being good enough to gig for money! Relax. Find a great teacher that kids LIKE and that isn’t a slave driver. Encourage her to try the orchestras, look for things like forming chamber music groups in high school if she is good enough to do that or wants to, or playing in the pit for high school musicals, or even playing in community groups/orchestras on the side if she is really competent. Maybe she forms a random band with friends who play covers from the 60s and 70s and she fiddles on the side. Or maybe she takes a real fiddle class at a local crunchy music schools (look for these places). Or maybe she finds one friend to play duets with and she starts giving “concerts” once a month at the local nursing home. There are so many options. Let HER look for them. I’d say avoid the intense competitive music programs/ competitions. Just let her love it, hopefully not quit in 2 years like most will, and hopefully she will find friends that will last a lifetime.

      Music is the best!

      And my composition classes were brutal in college. Way worse than pre-med. Composition classes are NOT what you/she are imagining, I promise you.

      1. Glad someone is corroborating my statement above that college music theory/composition classes are difficult!

        1. Yes! I’m the former first chair at all state musician who did 1 music theory class and realized a music double major wasn’t for me. I had private lessons weekly for 11 years, but performance isn’t music theory!

    9. If she wants to be semi-pro get her into piano lessons, then steer her towards collaborative piano and pipe organ. So many opportunities for gigs there.

      1. Especially if you want to be involved in music post-college but not full time, many churches need Sunday organists!

    10. One of my former dermatologists also played in the small city orchestra (~200k people). Let her go for it. It won’t get crazy as those semi-pro kids get homeschooled, and you’re not going that route. I’ve heard instruments get expensive, but you can choose how that fits into your family budget just as you’ll have to choose for teenage car driving or summer camps or clothing budget.

    11. You are way ahead of yourself with “she likes to compose.” Making up little tunes and even fitting some basic chords under them, which my daughter was also into at that age, are to composition like stick figures are to the Mona Lisa. These early efforts impress non-musicians, who tend to believe that any sort of musical thought is a stroke of genius, but also give kids a false sense of confidence that is very often shattered when they get to college. Of those who don’t drop out in the first couple of years and manage to learn the tools of the trade, very very few end up being any good. I have lost count of the terrible grad student pieces I premiered in college. Even those who manage to get their work published make very little for it. Ask a composer about their royalties sometime and you will get a huge laugh. And much of what gets published is objectively garbage.

      If she’s serious about composition she will come to you and ask for theory classes.

    12. As long as we are not talking about toxic culture/overly harsh teaching methods/etc., what is soul-crushing v. what is life-changing really depends on the child, her personality, and her goals. I know two kids, best friends, who started out studying with the same teacher in high school, an opera professor at a local university. She is positive but firm and is very good about adjusting her expectations to demand just the right amount more than what the student is currently delivering. Both of the kids at first found it challenging to get so much feedback, especially since most of the feedback directly contradicted what they’d been hearing in high school, where their choir teacher rewards belting. One kid eventually learned to accept and apply the corrections, made steady improvement, and was accepted to a good music performance program for college. The second kid, who has a pretty voice and would do quite well with proper training, shut down in response to the same type of feedback, dreaded each lesson, finally persuaded her parents to pull her from lessons, and thereafter refused to sing anything but Broadway songs. Kid 1 does not want to be an opera singer either but recognizes the value of proper technique in advancing her goals in choral music and musical theatre and is enjoying her progress. Kid 2 just likes having fun with her friends in show choir and the school musical.

      Another story: I went to high school and started college with a boy who composed a fully orchestrated piece for wind ensemble while in high school. Everyone thought he was a genius. I was just a performance major. Guess which one of us dropped out of music school in the first year and which one of us got a 100 on the “compose an invention in the style of JS Bach” assignment.

    13. My approach with a musical kid was to put her in private lessons and give her all the opportunities she asked for but not to push her to do more than she asked to do. This meant that her teacher or I might tell her that XYZ thing existed so she would know it was an option, but we wouldn’t push her to do it unless she expressed interest.

      One of the best things you can do for your daughter is to take her to a variety of performances as an audience member. Everything from your local symphony orchestra to college concerts and recitals to the opera and the ballet. It will expose her to repertoire she might not otherwise encounter as well as a level of musicianship she will not hear in high school. Listening to recordings is good but live performances are much more valuable.

  14. Where do you get earrings? I lose them, so I used to buy the J.Crew pearls in bulk, but that seems too conservative for 2024 and I haven’t found a replacement go-to earring that can just go in my ears and stay there… help?

    1. I like silver, so I just get sterling silver studs on Etsy (better than sterling is the 99% silver, which doesn’t tarnish).

    2. I like 2″ hollow tubed silver hoops, they go with everything and are lightweight. I get them in Kohls on sale, and replace when they break/get lost.

    3. You can have any earring back changed to a screw-on style if that’s how you lose them, FWIW.

      Nordstrm CZ huggies are my current go-to for this, though. Search item 6056153.

    6. I never take out my little hoops. They’re currently in, go with everything, and are very comfortable to wear.

      The key is to get the “snap closure” style so that a) they’re very secure and b) nothing is poking so they’re comfortable.

      Mine are gold toned / plated stainless steel from Amazon. I tried several types of metal and stainless is what worked best for me and my very sensitive skin.

      If you’re not into hoops, I’d recommend nap earrings. I used to wear these in my second hole and like the hoops would wear them for months, if not years, at a time

  15. i understand that at public institutions the rules are different, but can faculty/lecturers give students extra credit for attending/participating in a protest for a particular issue? when I was in the college (a private institution) I took a fantastic political science course where for an assignment we were supposed to attend rallies for all candidates in a particular race (we could choose whether we wanted to attend for a presidential candidate, mayoral candidate, congressperson, etc.) and write about the experience (we also had some readings to do in advance, etc.). But that seems completely different than giving extra credit for participating in something relating to a particular issue?

    1. Faculty can pretty much do whatever TF they want. However, as a faculty member, I don’t give extra credit and I don’t give assignments that require students to attend events outside of class time, as many of my students have schedules that would make that quite difficult. And I’m definitely not dumb enough to jump into a politically fraught issue like forcing them to attend a protest, which could have legal or safety consequences. I’m pretty sure there would be push back on an assignment like that.

      1. i wonder if OP is referring to this email from a lecturer at Michigan last week “…In order to continue to deliver content and and experiences that are relevant to our curriculum, I suggest you find ways to get involved and educate yourself on this situation and why it should matter. You can earn points for ‘engagement’ on Monday, April 15th by doing any of the following things:
        -Ask your other instructors to join the Strike or ask them why they are deciding not to join
        -Attend a teach-in on the Diag
        -Sign up for a picket shift
        -Join me in discussion groups
        -Listen to the Palestinian History Event from UM Flint virtually
        -Post in the new Canvas Discussion board your thoughts, feelings, actions
        Please do reach out if you don’t feel comfortable engaging with any of the above learning opportunities. As I have said before in class, I am not by any means against Jewish students and their families and do not condone any violence or hate speech against them. Still I do not support the Israeli military, government and religious leaders continuing to spew Jewish supremacy that justifies these ugly actions, and I hope you can agree with that as well…”

        2. That’s what I mean. Faculty can do pretty much anything and in the right context (and with alternate assignments for students who couldn’t attend), attending a political event could be sufficiently educational to justify course credit, even if the political event was for or against a certain issue. But this post is clearly different, because it’s flat out antisemitic, rather than encouraging a genuine educational experience.

    2. Why is it different? The reason for the extra credit is that they are ostensibly learning about the political process by attending a protest or a campaign rally. The point is not the substance of the issue or candidate. It’s observing the process of democracy.

      I’ll take a stab in the dark… you saw in the news that a college student was awarded extra credit for attending a protest against the Israel/Gaza war and you’re all in a tizzy about it because they must be an antisemite and how can we give extra credit to antisemites?

      1. The problem is that the extra credit is only for attending a protest or demonstration on one side of an issue. And many people would not feel safe attending for obvious reasons or might have moral objections to being seen to support that issue.

        Substitute attending a rally for a politician whose political beliefs you find repugnant, a Proud Boys rally, or a KKK rally and ask how you would feel about a professor giving an academic advantage to attendees.

        And let’s be realistic. You can be opposed to the Israeli government actions without being antisemitic, but those protests very, very, very often devolve into rampant antisemitism. And I would not personally be OK attending a protest with people changing “from the river to the sea”.

        1. This — my mere presence might be seen as endorsement (and I guess that these crowds would not take kindly to even polite discourse or a non-incendiary sign). I do not endorse this. My parents didn’t work extra shifts to pay for nonsense at college like this.

        2. I am Jewish, disagree with many of the actions of the Israeli government, am upset by what is happening to the Palestinians, though support a two state solution, the existence of Israel and am not a military expert so I do not know how the Israeli military should be responding. I think that what Hamas did on October 7 is absolutely atrocious. At Columbia the protests have included shouts of “burn Tel Aviv to the ground” and “Go back to Poland.” Well my grandfather was 1 of 7 and all of his siblings were killed in the Warsaw ghetto, and I’m not sure how me going back to Poland would help the Palestinians, nor do I see how burning Tel Aviv to the ground would help the Palestinian people, so yea, I would not be comfortable attending such a protest

        3. This.

          Students also have First Amendment rights, and being asked to (implicitly) endorse one side of a contentious issue for extra credit is an anathema to their academic freedom. This isn’t something like “make the best possible argument for your opponents to demonstrate that you understand the nature of the opposition.” It isn’t a class paper. It looks a LOT like asking students to endorse antisemitism.

          1. can a lecturer be fired for something like this? and is it different at a public vs private institution?

      2. i’m the OP and the difference is a content neutral assignment vs. one that is not. I most certainly do not think that everyone who disagrees with the Israeli government is an antisemite.

    5. Asking students to attend a protest or rally is a safety issue. I do not attend rallies even for causes I support for this reason.

  16. Has anyone found that if you eat less sugar, you crave less sugar? Started cleaning up my eating just two to three weeks ago for no particular reason except thinking that a 40 plus year old should not eat multiple cookies and candy daily. So basically cut those things out for about 3 weeks. Happened to have a leftover Reese’s peanut butter cup this weekend as a little treat for a good week last week – and while it was fine, it was pretty meh. A month ago I would’ve eaten at least 3 of them and now it felt like one was enough – like no desire for another. And when I eat things like bananas, they taste very sweet to me even if they aren’t over ripened. Do tastes change that fast?? Is there something overly addictive in our ultra processed food?

    3. If I give up sweets and added sugar, orange juice will become too sweet for me. It’s amazing how much one’s sense of taste and cravings can change.

      If I give up all sweeteners of any kind I have found that I acquire the super power of driving right past the Krispy Kreme donut shop when the “Hot” sign is on.

    4. I have found this to be true (and read Salt, Sugar, Fat by Michael Moss for a report on how manufacturers use sugar to make food more “addictive”) but cutting out food groups entirely feels disorder-y to me. For me, it will eventually result in a binge.

    5. Yes definitely. I stopped putting sugar in my coffee a while ago for no particular reason and after a while realized that I didn’t like any sweet drinks anymore.

    6. Yes, this is a thing. I stopped putting sugar in my tea years ago because it was too many steps before getting out the door in the morning (I am who I am, don’t ask) and now I can’t do it anymore at all. However, it hasn’t stopped me eating cookies three at a time if I want them.

    9. I have a craving for sugar after a meal. I have learned that if I give into it, then it’s the new minimum – my body is like, we had ice cream after dinner yesterday, where’s my ice cream today? I have learned that I need to ignore it for a few days to get it to settle down. And it does settle down.

      I’m always going to love ice cream. But I have to remind myself that I’m not going to be an ice cream every day person.

      1. This is me. I am the type who’ll easily eat 3 or 4 Milano cookies daily if I allow myself to do it. If I skip it for a few days or a week, then I feel like I don’t want them at all or 1 or 2 are enough. Eating them daily just makes them a habit for me. On the flip side though I’ve been able to make habits of good snacks – like now if I don’t have an ounce of nuts per day, I’m left feeling like I missed something.

    10. Yup.

      I could easily pig out on sweets/treats after dinner. Well, anytime actually. But after 40, as hormones change, I just can’t get away with that and my weight was rising as well as my cholesterol.

      I now buy my absolute favorite pricey chocolate treat, and have one small one every night after dinner. I can’t believe I have the restraint to do this now, but as you wean down, your body adjusts. And when I eat my favorite treat. I eat it slowly, and totally enjoy every bite. When I have something that is too tempting, I keep it in the freezer, and only thaw one at a time to eat.

    11. 100% agree that this is a thing, I’m a total candyholic from Halloween to V-day (sometimes Easter). Gotta love the candy-centric holidays.

      I’ve heard that you should try to limit your sugar to 25g a day, so when I’m tracking stuff I try to mind that.

  17. An FYI from Chapter 13. You cannot get private disability insurance until you are 2 years into your bankruptcy (from the date the court confirmed your plan, not the date you filed). It’s not something I’m super worried about, just something I wanted to set up. Thought some of you might find this interesting. I tried several companies.

  18. Do you prefer eBay or Poshmark to resell your stuff? I’ve used both in the past. I have some new shoes, gently used jeans, and party dresses.

    1. I use thredup. I am sure I could make more money on Poshmark or eBay, but I am too lazy to photograph and post things myself. FYI I have had very little luck selling jeans unless they are new and high-end.

      1. P.S. FWIW I shop on Poshmark but not eBay. I find Poshmark easier to navigate and it just has more NWT brands I like.

    2. I’ve used Poshmark, but only for stuff that I’m sure has resell appeal (I’ve had luck with brands like Lululemon and Everlane for example). Anything else I just donate because I can’t be bothered to try to sell my old t-shirts or whatever.

    4. Poshmark. I have much better odds of finding a buyer and the process is easy. I have no desire to figure out eBay and ThredUp last paid me 42 cents for a bag of clothes with new JCrew with tags tops and blazers, never again, I’d rather give them away in my neighborhood Facebook group.

    5. seller beware info about ThredUp – myself and multiple friends had clothing items that ThredUp rejected only to then see them on the website (and one case the size label had the same blue ink stain in the same location….)
      I have no proof beyond anecdotal observations.

      I myself use Poshmark, donate to a non-Goodwill thrift store in my area, or offer up to family/friends. I prioritize keeping the items out of the landfill over recouping costs so I’m not raking in loads from Poshmark or anything.

      1. I think that happened to me. I sent a huge back of stuff including brands like Eileen Fisher, which I know is a big seller secondhand, and the entire bag was rejected. Supposedly “donated.” Then several of my items appeared on ThredUp. It could be that they were donated, some thrifter found them at a thrift store and then resold them on ThredUp, but I find it highly unlikely.

      2. Why non-Goodwill? Goodwill provides training and resources to people with barriers to employment. Helping people to support themselves seems like a pretty great cause.

        1. There is a whole cadre of people out with flaming pitchforks for Goodwill because they pay their leadership salaries that are not equivalent to volunteering and maybe a full 30% of what someone running a national org of similar scope and size would earn in the private sector. Most people seem to think that the value of nonprofit work is minimal and should be compensated accordingly and people who work in finance or selling widgets “get paid what they are worth” because they are “contributing to society” by making money (though it’s okay if they get paid exorbitantly during down years, too). They also complain that leadership makes six figures while the bottom tier workers make low wages, but the stats here are something like a CEO making 30x what the lowest paid worker makes and in the private sector it is more like a CEO makes 300x what the frontline workers make. If you are running Goodwill, you are supposed to be doing it out of the kindness of your heart but with the competency that ensures that not one penny in that national org gets misappropriated or wasted and also ensure that the soiled rags donated by people claiming tax writeoffs get put on shelves for sale and not put in the landfill because they are perfectly acceptable for wearing by those who have to shop there.

          1. I’m the one who posted above about not donating to Goodwill. I wasn’t aware of Anon @ 1:54pm shared, but I stopped donating to Goodwill after staff that two different locations were rude and racist towards me. After the first incident, I gave it another shot with another location, but after two similar incidents, I gave up. I had tried to address the issue through the proper channels and was basically told to f*** off…. so I did. I still believe in donating and doing good, I just now direct my donations to other recipients.

      3. Agreed about Thredup’s taking advantage of people who mail in clothes. The “payouts” are ridiculously low.

        But your note about a mark on the label if an item on Thredup seems incorrect. They only show two photos for each item they sell. Super frustrating for shoes where you can’t tell if the toe is round or pointed. Thredup doesn’t publish photos of the label. Only eBay and Poshmark reseller show those photos.

  19. PSA for the Olaplex girlies: Costco online is fully stocked with a promo (buy three items save $30). They also have a lot of La Mer and other luxe beauty brands included in the promo.

    1. It wasn’t bad enough to call grown women “girls” now we’re calling ourselves “girlies”?? Can we please stop infantilizing women?

      1. It was just a PSA. Calm down.

        OP, if you come back, and I would not blame you if you don’t, do you need to be a Costco member?

        2. It was literally a shampoo deal PSA! I would not use that term for anything even slightly serious. Anyway: yes you do have to be a Costco member to buy things from their website.

      3. I despise the term “girlies.” An adult woman who enjoys a particular product or activity shouldn’t be spoken about like a child.

      4. “girilies” is commonly used among young women today in the spirit of camaraderie. i find it more infantilizing to police the usage of such an innocent phrase, but what do i know, i’m just a girl. <3

        1. Yes, it’s common, and I used girl/girlies myself until someone pointed out how I was infantilizing myself a couple years ago. I then stopped using girl to describe women. Look at that, personal growth…

      5. I mean I don’t love it, but we’re probably also both old and not the taste arbiters of slang terms these days.

  20. PSA for the Olaplex girlies: Costco online has many items with a promo (buy three items save $30). They also have a lot of La Mer and other luxe beauty brands included.

  21. OK, gang, need a gut check. Our current house is pending sale. Inspection was on Friday. We have had issues with the lockbox before, but got a new one and thought it was working fine. Inspector shows up forty-five minutes late and can’t get it to work. He calls the buyer’s realtor a couple times but gets no answer. So what does he do? He enters our house through the freaking window.

    Our realtor called me to tell me about this after the buyer’s realtor let her know, just as a heads up (she’s very thorough & amazing), and apparently our neighbors also called our realtor just to be like “um, someone is going through the window of that house.”

    DH went back to the house just to be present for the rest of the inspection, but is now worried he jeopardized the sale by asking the guy for his insurance info (guy refused to give it to him). Family and friends are telling us we should have called the police, but we had authorized the guy to be there so I feel like “breaking and entering” really doesn’t have any legs. I mostly just want to know if we’re crazy for being weirded out by this, and what you all would do in our shoes.

    3. Take a step back. Your end goal is to sell this house to these buyers, correct? No one was harmed and nothing was damaged, correct?

      Charging this guy with B&E gets you nothing.

      Your husband asking him for his insurance information was probably pointless (see: nothing broken) but likely wouldn’t cause any problems, either.

      If there is a problem with the inspection that you think is this guy taking out his frustrations on you, maybe you could have another inspection done (at your own expense?). Talk to your realtor.

      I suspect that this is just a big nothingburger. The inspection will come back with whatever information is on the report, the sale will likely go through, and next time, put a label with your cell phone on the lockbox.

    4. Why did your husband ask for insurance information? To let him know that you know that he could have damaged something even though he obviously didn’t but he could have and he needs to know that you know that? Just to let the guy know who is in charge?
      Honestly, I’d get over it. It’s not ideal, but nothing came of it. His being late is also irrelevant. But if you want to belittle him that is also a point to raise.
      Honestly, if it were me, I’d be relieved and grateful he found a way to complete the inspection and apologize that he had to crawl through the window to do it.

      2. Yeah, I think DH overreacted. He had his parents in his ear telling him to call the police, which I think is a huge escalation, and this was his compromise. At least he was self-aware about it, if a smidge too late.

        But I do think it’s weird. As our neighbors demonstrated, our realtor’s number was handy and the inspector could have called her too. We had left the back door unlocked, as well; he would have just had to open the gate and go around. If he’d called our realtor, he would have learned that.

    5. Am I weirded out? Yes. Should inspector have done that? prob not but he also has a tight schedule and probably didn’t have an opening for another 3 weeks, if your market is anything like ours so it was now or never. What would I do? Laugh about how weird it was with DH and my realtor, but do absolutely nothing and get the sale closed. I’m guessing the buyers really want the house so it’s a non-event to them, too.

      Not really related but a funny/weird story: people get to be SO WEIRD about buying homes. I think it’s just a crazy emotionally charged process. We sold our first home and had a camera over our then 10-month-old’s crib. We generally turned it off during tours/OH’s but forgot when we had a one-off tour scheduled one day. So, I get an alert that there’s motion in the baby’s room and a little video viewer popped up on my phone as it’s set to do. I went to turn it off but saw there was a BABY IN MY CRIB. Turns out someone touring our house brought their own baby to the tour and felt it was acceptable to put the baby in our crib for the duration of the tour. No fine. So weird. And violating? They ultimately submitted an offer and we refused to go back to them for final bids (we had 14 offers so didn’t need them anyhow but it was bananas). People are strange, man.

    6. I would be a little weirded about by this, but not “call the police” weirded out; I think this is feels less sketchy than this in my world. You wanted him to enter the house, but your lockbox didn’t work, so he entered through a window instead of the locked door. This is absolutely what I would want some service people to do (e.g. a pet sitter) if they couldn’t reach me. It might feel less crazy in the inspector’s world too, though apparently not the realtor’s? (Unless I’m misunderstanding, and he literally broke the window in some way and didn’t just open it and go inside?) I’ve definitely gone in through a window when before, though I realize it’s different in that it is my own house and my neighbors know I live in it. But I definitely grew up in the kind of place where a lot of people don’t lock doors at all, or where the key is in under the flowerpot, so that may skew how it all feels to me.

    7. while the inspector’s behavior was bananas, keep your eyes on the prize here – selling the house. Did the guy break anything or did he just open a window and get in? Is this a “nuts story but no harm no foul” situation?

      1. also- consider the consequences to the buyer if they couldn’t get in for the inspection. In this market, a lot of sellers are doing really short windows, like 3-5 days, if they allow an inspection at all. if he couldn’t get in he would have really p=ssed buyers on his hands?

    8. I think it’s a little weird but ultimately not a big deal. Asking for insurance or reporting to the police seems like overkill to me.

      Given the stress levels you reported last week I’d say nothing and just hope for the sale to go through.

    9. One of the (many) things my inspector failed to do was open and check the functionality of the locks on all the windows in my house. The inspector was perfectly in the right to open the window from the inside. Opening it from the outside really isn’t different, and thankfully it allowed him to complete the job so you can sell the house!

    10. Did he break the window? Or just open it and go through? It’s weird but not THAT bad; the window was open, he was supposed to have a key. He talked to the buyers agent.

      Just hope he said nice things about the house and move along to closing :).

    11. It’s a little weird, but his job was to get the inspection done in a pretty limited period of time and that already requires crawling around in weird parts of your house, so if he could do it without causing any damage, it probably felt a lot less weird to him than it does to you. Ultimately, you want to get the house sold in a timely fashion, so I don’t see much point in making a fuss about it. It’s definitely not call the police worthy, since you wanted him to enter your house and he didn’t really break in. Besides, you were the one who was at fault, for providing a faulty lockbox and wasting his time. He should be mad at you, not the other way around. For what it’s worth, we just bought a house, and our realtor insisted on being there for the inspection. He said that was best practice to make sure there was no damage to the house, so maybe there’s also some blame for the buyer’s agent.

    12. That is definitely weird and would sketch me out. I would question his judgment! I don’t think it’s overreaction for your husband to have demanded verification (even if asking for insurance was a bit off the mark). Hopefully you can chalk it up to the insane process of home buying these days, and then remind yourself that it will be someone else’s house soon whose window he crawled through.

      The other commenters must have never lived in places where gun protection is so strong that a neighbor could have shown up with a gun!

      1. Haha you’d be on the wrong end of that house sale, then. It would suck to lose out on a pending offer because you were being a d1ck to an inspector who didn’t want to cancel on his client & found a window he could open from the outside.

    13. I think it was more inappropriate for your DH to be there during the buyer’s inspection. If there was no damage and he didn’t break anything, I don’t think it was a big deal.

    14. The weird part is the inspector was alone. Why weren’t an agent and the buyers there, too?

      1. Yeah, and then the sellers shows up threatening the inspector. It’s weird all the way around.

    15. Totally late on this post, but my DH is a home inspector and I can completely see him doing something like this. Inspectors are usually efficient and practical and just trying to get the job done. They often have to McGyver around parts of houses anyways like the attic, roof, or under the stairs, and as another post mentioned they need to check the windows anyways.

  22. Is a retirement email tacky or inappropriate as compared to a hand written note?

    Feel like I’m adding to the chorus as I think someone else posted here also regarding a doctor retiring soon. I guess this is the time of year that many affiliated with medical schools step down. Anyway DH and I wouldn’t have our baby without this doctor, as he saw us through a very long process and high risk pregnancy to get our child safely here. While we obviously thanked him profusely at the time and brought our baby for an office visit, reality is we were SO nervous and tired when all this went down two years ago that we barely remember what we said. While we are done having kids, we were still saddened to hear that he’s no longer going to be in practice. Called over to the office to see if I could get the best address to send him a personal note and no one seemed to be able to answer. I assume he has an academic office in the medical school or somewhere on that huge campus but the answer seemed to be – send it to the patient office, put his name on it, it’ll get there.

    IDK an email seems more guaranteed to get to him. DH happens to be an alum of that university and was able to send me the directory listing with the email address – which oddly lists no physical address. I’d like to send it to his academic email rather than via patient portal which then officially logs it in my chart or something. Is it fine to just send an email? FWIW I don’t expect a response or anything. I know it isn’t as nice as a note he could keep.

    1. I was able to tell my doctor face to face at my last appointment with him before his retirement. I told him that he had made a difference in my life, and that he had listened to me when no one else would. A note would have been nice too, but I just did it in person and I’m glad he did. He seemed to be very touched.

    2. If he’s still practicing (unclear from your post if he’s already gone, or if you would just never go again for an appointment since he’s now NA to you), you could drop off a card at his office.

    3. Just send a card to his office. I don’t know why you’re making this so hard. It’s super weird that you’re practically stalking this guy – asking his office to give you a different address and tracking down alumni records – instead of just sending him mail to an address where you can be reasonably sure it’ll get to him.

    4. Agree that you could just drop a card by the practice. He may not have a physical address on the campus because he is adjunct or more like a guest lecturer, and if space is tight, people who come in regularly are prioritized for office space. If you send him a physical letter to the university dept, they might be able to forward it to his home though.

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