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Updated: Oct 30, 2018 443 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Short Sleeve Keyhole Soft Blouse

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. This Lands' End top has been on my radar for several weeks now. It's an exceptionally soft, machine washable top with a rounded hem — pretty, but very appropriate for work, and not too fussy. It comes in regular sizes 2-18 and petite sizes 00-16 in the pictured color as well as black and blue. Short Sleeve Keyhole Soft Blouse Here's a plus-size option in the same colors that also comes in petite, tall, and regular sizes. This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support! Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.

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Comments

  1. DC Couples Counselor

    Any recommendations for a couples counselor in DC or NoVa? My husband and I have let things go for way too long, and I suddenly feel like the situation is dire. But neither of us has ever been in therapy before and I have no idea how to find a therapist (beyond Google…). I tried looking through my insurer but can’t seem to find what I’m looking for. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

  2. mascot

    I like this top and appreciate that LE has garment measurements in addition to standard size charts. But, why must everything have an exposed zipper in the back for “interesting detail” and why won’t retailers clearly show a rear view of the garment?

    • pugsnbourbon

      I kinda don’t mind this exposed zipper, though I agree it’s a lazy way to add “detail.”

      I will say that I ordered a similar shirt from LE recently and it was wayyy too tight in the shoulders. I know I’m broad shouldered, but sizing up would have made the rest of the top much too loose.

    • anonshmanon

      With my larger chest, most keyhole features look inappropriate. But I really like the look of this shirt, so here goes: If anyone owns this or has tried it on, how does it work on bustier frames?

      • Ms B

        Yes, please tell us, inquiring minds want to know! If fit is good, then I have a couple jackets that should go well with the grey color.

      • Anonymous

        I haven’t tried this one, but I’m busty and a loyal LE shopper. I’ve had other tops from there where I’d think ‘hmm… not for a large bust…’ but they’d fit perfectly. Most of my wardrobe is from there, actually, because the fit is so good for me. I have narrow shoulders, large bust (30DD-32G), and full rear and thighs.

        I love this, but not with an exposed zipper. (I also love that they provide garment measurements!)

    • Baconpancakes

      I’m actually pretty pleased with how on point this pick is. It’s exactly what I need for spring.

    • Anonymous

      I like this top, but for the price, I’d rather get a Boden Ravello on sale. Nicer fabric, better color/print selection, very similar look. This might wrinkle less though, so I’ll give it that.

      • Katie

        If you sign up for their emails, Lands End sends coupons for 30-40% off a full priced item every day. I think you can also use those coupons in-store.

  3. pugsnbourbon

    A happy note for Friday –

    Earlier this week I got on Amazon Smile and noticed that my charity had changed to our local Planned Parenthood – and I didn’t remember changing it from Partners in Health. Then I realized it wasn’t my account at all. My husband, without any prompting or even telling me, had created his own Smile account supporting PP. It felt so good to know that he’s listening and cares.

  4. Grumpy Anon

    I know this makes me curmudgeonly, but I’m so tired of an acquaintance ‘Bob’ saying what a tragedy and test from god it is that his pack a day habit caught up with him. Tragedy is children’s brain cancer and it makes me rage that he lumps himself in with that category. It makes me even more ragey that he has a gofundme.

    • Anonymous

      I would be ragey too. Sorry not sorry but a pack a day smoker getting lung cancer is not a tragedy. It’s a sad but obvious consequence of an individual’s actions.

      • Anonymous

        Is cancer what Bob is complaining about? I mean, it could be any number of other ailments that smoking is related to…

        But yes, repeated calls for attention from a person who is ultimately suffering the consequences of his own actions would be annoying. Sad that he’s sick, but annoying AF to hear about it endlessly.

      • Jax

        I’m afraid of the path we’re on when health becomes an “obvious consequence of an individual’s actions”. While we know more about how/why health deteriorates, I think it’s extremely cold to blame people for being sick.

        We’re all going to die, despite following all the current medical and lifestyle advice out there. Our sympathy shouldn’t only be extended when we’ve decided, “Oh, it’s okay for YOU because I can see you tried to live a pristine life. But that guy? He should have tried harder.”

        • Nonster

          99% of the time, I’d agree with you, but not in the case of a smoker getting lung cancer, if that’s indeed what OP is referring to. At this late in the game, smoking like that is equivalent to going for a dip amid a lighting storm, or going through life driving like a maniac. The very possible result is well-known, and I’m not sympathetic to it.

        • anon

          Yeah, and it’s easy for us to ignore all the things we do that are less than ideal when we’re rushing to criticize other people for getting sick. Smoking is just an easy and obvious target. It’s like telling women who get pregnant and want abortions that it sucks to be them, but they should know better than to get accidentally pregnant.

          I eat a medicore but okay diet, I rarely if ever work out, work at a sedentary job, and drink too much booze and sugary coffee drinks. But if and when I get my “comeuppance” via medical maladies, I’ll still probably be upset and surprised. Will someone point their finger at me and tell me that my heart disease is a product of me spending 45-50 hours a week sitting on my rear end glued to a computer screen? I hope not. Even if it’s the truth.

          Also, I’ve seen someone dying of lung cancer and it is something I would not wish on my worst enemy.

    • anonshmanon

      Lots of people smoke lots and never get cancer. So yeah, it doesn’t feel fair to the one who gets sick. Dismissing his feelings because there are (objectively?) bigger tragedies out there is also not fair.

      But hey, as long as you vent anonymously online, he doesn’t have to know.

    • Anonymous

      God yeah it sucks when people with cancer have the nerve to have feelings about it.

      • Anon

        +100!!!

        I have close family members who smoke. They try to quit all the time. It’s an addiction. Yes, they started the habit, but no one goes into it thinking rationally about the consequences. We could say that about people who don’t exercise and eat healthy. People are imperfect and we should have compassion for each other not judgment.

    • Anonymous

      Um I think it makes you more than curmudgeonly. Bob didn’t hurt anyone but himself, and I think you should cut him some slack, since, you know, he has CANCER. My reaction to someone complaining about getting cancer would probably be, “so thankful I am healthy.” Period.

      • Anonymous

        I had a very serious BF who smoked. And I loved him and really wanted him to quit so that I didn’t (at some point) have to go through life without him, prematurely. I begged him to stop, if not for him, for me, our future children, his parents, his sister. He really wanted to stop and did, periodically. I’m not sure sure that smokers hurt only themselves.

      • Anonymous

        Yup. Sorry grumpy this makes you a bad person. It just does. Too bad so sad you got diabetes fatty. Sucks to be you burn victim that’s what you get for setting off fire works.

        • Nonster

          Diabetes and fireworks accidents are nowhere near equivalent to smoking a pack of day, in terms of actions with known outcomes (I’m not just talking about lung cancer).

          • Anonymous

            Driving and texting (or doing something on your phone) is just a matter of WHEN your # is up. And even if you just hurt yourself, your being hurt hurts those who love you.

            And yet everyone does it on their way to yoga, buy organic sprouts, etc. And yet we can’t all take transit, so we are all exposed to what we know is bad b/c we have to get to work / pick up kids / go to school somehow.

            I feel sorry even for people to commit suicide and their survivors. I don’t think that anyone truly wants to pull the trigger and blow off their head (always where a loved one finds them — why that? and then I remember that they aren’t thinking straight and back off), and yet it happens) or slip away with pills.

      • POSITA

        My uncle died an early death from smoking-related lung cancer. He left his wife and kids with no life insurance or income and large medial bills. They had begged him to stop smoking for years. They ended up essentially homeless and will never recover the stability that they had. Whether or not it is a tragedy for him, it absolutely was for his family.

        (Context- He worked as an independent contractor so he couldn’t qualify for employer-sponsored life insurance and couldn’t get an individual policy as a smoker with other health concerns. His kids were just 18 and 19 and thus didn’t qualify for death benefits.)

        • Anonymous

          ok – what does this have to do with Bob? we know nothing about him other than that he smokes and got cancer. thus, my default response is to feel sorry for him, not attack him.

      • ELS

        As others have pointed out, smokers don’t hurt only themselves. They hurt their families, and they expose others to second-hand smoke.

        That said, while I’d be irritated if Bob is actually using the word “tragedy” to describe his illness, I wouldn’t be irritated that he’s upset at being ill, or asking for support. Even if he engaged in risky behavior, that doesn’t mean I’d want him to die prematurely.

    • Anon

      Wow – I take heat here all the time bc I’m happy about the stock market and don’t care about liberal issues – you however are a B

    • BeenThatGuy

      The person who choses to smoke, doesn’t deserve cancer. The person who elects to have plastic surgery, doesn’t deserve to die of an expected infection or complication. The person climbs Mount Everest, doesn’t deserve to fall off the mountain and die. While those are all choices, those deaths are all still tragedies. No one persons life if more valuable than the next based on what YOU think.

      • Never too many shoes...

        In fairness, I don’t think that OP is saying that Bob *deserves* cancer, more that it was reasonably foreseeable given his life choices and not “tragic” in the general definition of the word.

        I admit that I eye-rolled slightly at the Go Fund Me and then remembered that this is likely a US poster and that health care fundraising is totally a thing. Sorry, Canadian privilege check for me.

        • Grumpy Anon

          Yea he doesn’t deserve to die, I really do hope he gets better. Its sad hes sick…but not a tragedy. I think it’s a distinct difference.

          • lawsuited

            What qualifies as a tragedy is completely subjective. It seems that a heavy smoker getting lung cancer meets the definition of tragedy for Bob, which is pretty unsurprising given his situation. If only kids getting cancer meets the definition for you, then that’s your prerogative, but Bob doesn’t have to agree with you.

        • Anomnibus

          That’s kinda how I feel too. Cancer is never good and hardly “deserved” no matter what your habits are. That said, if he’s one of those constant “woe is me” types – always complaining about his symptoms, posting on social media about how tragic it is that he’s sick, and posting links to his GoFundMe every day and messaging individuals about how badly he needs money and he’d really appreciate even a few dollars – I can see some of his acquaintances running out of sympathy real fast and starting to get annoyed, *especially* if it’s an illness he brought on himself.

        • Anon

          I have an instinctual negative reaction to almost all GoFundMes but I’ve tried to really take a step back and see how it’s messed up that people even need those to begin with and then I try to channel my annoyance at politics and the state of our healthcare system.

          • Anon

            Me too. I try to check myself, but some of them are just ridiculous. I know of someone who abused their go fund ‘earnings’ too.

      • Nonster

        OP didn’t say they deserved cancer or that his life is worth less than​ someone else’s.

          • lawsuited

            Given that OP thinks a kid having cancer is a tragedy, and that Bob’s condition doesn’t rise to that level, the subtext is that Bob’s suffering or potentially the loss of his life is less sad or unfortunate.

          • Busybee

            But Bob chose to engage in something that he knew could likely lead to this outcome. A child with cancer hasn’t consciously done anything to lead to his/her condition.

    • Ms B

      Y’all get off Grumpy Anon’s back. This makes me crazy too. I am dealing with it from my mother right now and having to hear over and over how “surprising” it is that she has cancer when my brother and I both got grounded and punished multiple times over twenty years for hiding or destroying cigarettes or doing things to push her to quit so that she would, you know, LIVE is driving me right over the edge. Yes, mom, its terrible and sad and upsetting that you have lung cancer but “surprising” is not on the list. Stop saying it.

      It’s not a blame thing, it’s a matter of understanding logical consequences. The Surgeon General’s warning has been on cigarette packs since before I was born. Illness is unfortunate and I appreciate the challenges of it, but do not tell me that you did not know hat this could happen or that you did not knowingly assume the risk (or knowingly expose me, my brother and my father to it smoking in the house and cars for years).

      • Anonymous

        This. My Dad has COPD, his brother died from lung cancer after smoking for 30 years and my dad still smokes. I hate it but he has never expressed that having COPD is a ‘tragedy’ or anything other than an anticipated consequence of smoking for so long. My sister and I both have allergies and asthma which was probably caused by my Dad’s smoking. Smoking has consequences for smokers and their families. The consequences are the subject of clear public health warnings.

        A smoker getting cancer is sad. It is not an unexpected tragedy like childhood neuroblastoma.

      • Anonymous

        Yes, my mother does this too. She smoked years ago, quit, picked it back up during my parents’ divorce then will call me freaking out that they found a “lump” on a scan. everything benign so far thank god but I’m like, well, maybe you should quit?

        My grandfather was a lifelong smoker and died from lung cancer that metastasized to his spine. He had quit like 5 years earlier… too little too late. It was fucking tragic and very hard on my family. I don’t wish it on anybody.

      • Anon

        I get that, because my mom won’t quit either, but I try to, you know, have a little compassion and understanding that it’s literally an addiction and quitting is easier said than done.

    • Spirograph

      Everyone’s piling on a bit, and I see that point. But I just wanted to say that I don’t think this makes you a bad person. There are a lot of factors that go into cancer, but smoking and lung cancer are pretty well linked. Not saying anyone “deserves” it, or that it’s not a personal tragedy, jut that there’s cause and effect, and I would also be annoyed if someone refused to acknowledge that. I tell my kids all the time they can have whatever feelings they want, but I still expect them to act appropriately. It’s only fair to extend that to adults. We can’t control our feelings, just how we behave. You can be annoyed with Bob all you want, as long as you don’t tell him to shut up or complain that he’s a sanctimonious whiner to your mutual friends and acquaintances.

      • Anonymous

        +1. You are also allowed to have your feelings about Bob having his feelings out loud and all over the place. Feelings happen, it’s what you do with them that matters. And venting about it anonymously is probably a better choice, so you don’t do it to someone directly affected by Bob’s health issues.

      • Anon

        And people get lung cancer for reasons other than smoking. One of the best and healthiest people I know, who never smoked a day in her life got lung cancer and died less than four months later. She learned the hard way that this attitude of “people who get lung cancer deserved it” means that there is less research, less funding, and less support than for almost any other form of cancer.

        • Anonymous

          Yep a relative of mine who never smoked, but worked his whole life in a lumber yard and in construction died of lung cancer.

          And there’s pretty good evidence that breathing chlorine fumes at indoor pools, living near major freeways, and also lots of indoor toxins (that, of course, the poor are more likely to be exposed to) all elevate lung cancer risk.

    • Anon

      Try to let go of your anger. No one “deserves” to die unless they are a serial murderer or rapist (and even then, I am anti-death penalty – it’s a question of “does this person benefit the Earth”). People are imperfect and do horrible things for their health all the time. I’m sure you wouldn’t say that a kindly old grandma who exercised only once a week deserved to fall and break a hip, or that a young man who took risks on his snowboard deserved a head injury and shouldn’t have the gall to create a GoFundMe. Every death is a tragedy for someone.

    • also grumpy

      Wow, everyone is being so harsh! I highly doubt the OP wanted this person to get sick (she doesn’t specify cancer). There are so many known risks of smoking that I find it hard to have sympathy when those risks might catch up to a smoker. I really can’t understand why anyone in 2017 would smoke.

      • Blonde Lawyer

        I’m sympathetic to its addictive properties. I don’t understand why someone would START smoking in 2017 but I understand why people that started smoking in 1975 still smoke.

      • Snick

        Addiction. That’s why. Tobacco addiction is incredibly hard for some people to overcome.

      • Anon

        Consider this: over 70% of people with schizophrenia and bipolar depression smoke. Average population less than 20% Just people who can’t read warnings. We are not all made equal. Nothing is fair. But we all die.

    • Anon

      Yeah you’re being pretty uncharitable.

      My mom has COPD from years of smoking and it’s an awful disease and yes, she did this to herself every time she lit another cigarette. But, she was addicted to cigarettes and started smoking before the surgeon general’s warnings and when she was a stupid kid. We all do lots of things as stupid kids and this idea that decades later someone can say “well, it’s your own fault because you picked up that cigarette when you were fifteen” is kind of absurd.

      Do you know that quitting cigarettes is said to be harder than quitting heroin?

      Do you know what some people form stronger addictions than other people given the same stimuli?

      I do have sympathy for my mom and for other victims of smoking, just as I have sympathy for people who have type 2 diabetes and heart disease and other lifestyle health problems. None of us are perfect (except, apparently, you) and we live in a complex world. You can’t go through life deciding what other people get to consider their personal tragedies.

      “Oh, poor John has ALS. I will feel terrible for him, but not for Susie who has breast cancer because we know that an unhealthy diet increases the risk of breast cancer. It’s her own damned fault because I once saw her eat a donut.”

      • Anonymous

        It’s facetious to compare an unhealthy diet and breast cancer to smoking and lung cancer. There is a much greater predictability around lung cancer and smoking. It is equally facetious to pretend that mistakes someone makes at 15 are what caused their COPD. My Dad started smoking at age 12. Most smoking related damages is repaired after ten years of not smoking. He could have smoked for 20 years, spent ten years trying to quit and likely not developed COPD. Instead he continued to smoke for 40 years. And he will tell you this himself because he didn’t stick his head in the sand about the consequences of his addiction.

        • Anon

          It’s facetious because it’s meant to point out that where you draw the line is arbitrary. And why do you need to draw a line? Who decided you get to play god?

          There is no question that OP is being uncharitable.

          • Anonymous

            And apparently where one draws the line on charitableness is just as arbitrary.

            OP is having a perfectly fine reaction. She is not uncharitable.

          • Anonymous

            Good luck with all the ‘surprising’ effects from smoking and obesity – type 2 diabetes is entirely preventable if you haven’t heard. So over the culture where no one takes responsibility for their health. Yes, cancer is not preventable on lifestyle factors alone but let’s not stick our heads in the sand and pretend it’s an unexpected tragedy when a smoker gets COPD or lung cancer – if anything it would be unexpected that they didn’t.

        • Dahlia

          Did you know that mortality from cancer is 62% higher in women with obesity than woman with a normal BMI?

          “A number of large-scale, prospective studies have confirmed a significant association between obesity and cancer. The strongest association is between an elevated BMI and cancer risk. A prospective cohort study in the United States found a significant association between obesity and cancer.36 This prospective study involved > 900000 subjects from the American Cancer Prevention Study II who were free from cancer in 1982 and had a mean follow up of 16 years. Among those with a BMI ≥ 40 kg/m2, mortality from all causes of cancer was 52% higher in men and 62% higher in women compared with those with a normal BMI. ”

          From this study:

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2879283/

          The correlation is actually very clear.

          When we’ve avoided a risk factor, I think we tend to assume its as easy for other people to avoid. We empathize with people who struggle with the same things we do. If Susie with the donut in the example above was morbidly obese, would you have trouble empathizing with her cancer? Or is it just that we understand struggling with our weight, and we don’t understand the struggle with smoking?

          I believe that we attribute blame for outcomes like this, in part, because as a defense mechanism. It makes us feel safer if we live in a world where bad things happen because people do things that bring them on themselves. If I don’t do that thing, I will be safe from your consequence. However, I think this is an impulse we should try to override as much as we can. Everyone is fighting a battle you can’t see. No one wants to get sick. They are doing the best they can with the resources and education they have.

          It was easy for me to not smoke and not drink to excess. I got the HPV vaccine because I lived in a country where it was funded and widely available. I get regular preventative care. I can afford a gym membership and exercise classes. I can afford decent food. I can read peer-reviewed medical articles and understand them. I don’t suffer from a psychiatric disorder like schizophrenia where smoking is one of the most effective ways to suppress my symptoms.
          I am so lucky.

  5. Anon

    What systems do you use to stay on top of tasks at work? I feel like I have so many balls in the air at the same time that I keep forgetting things.

    The best I can come up with is an old-fashioned to-do list with pen and paper that I leave on my desk every night before I go home so that I see it in the morning. I flag emails in my inbox (oh my gosh, the PACE of emails…!) and try to clear them by the end of the day.

    • Carrots

      I don’t remember if someone here suggested it, but I really like Asana as a task manager for projects. You can separate things out by project, add deadlines that are interwoven with each other, and comment on specific tasks (which has been helpfully when I’ve made efforts on things, but haven’t completed it yet). If there’s multiple people on projects, you can include them and assign tasks to them and see when they’re completed.

    • Anon

      I have a word document that I use as a working to-do list. I have a column for the tasks for each day of the following 5 workdays, and a column for “next week.” I used to hand-write it but it made it harder to make changes without wasting 400 pieces of paper a day.

    • LondonLeisureYear

      I know some people love bullet journals. Some love Google Keep. Some love the Getting Things Done system.

      I think you just have to find something that works for you and stick with it.

    • Walnut

      I use a paper to-do list, piles on my desk, and I religiously zero-inbox. I have a folder structure for key issues, but the most used folder is my general ‘correspondence’ file where anything that has been addressed or if more of an FYI gets dropped as soon as I read it. The only items remaining in my inbox are those that have yet to be read, addressed, or are items I’ve responded to, but cannot let drop.

    • Anon

      I use a bullet journal and jot down tasks every morning. Any emails that come in that require me to do something I move into a folder called “AToDo” (the A is so that it’s my top subfolder) and I don’t move them into “BDone” until they’re actually done. Whenever I move something into AToDo I write it down in the bullet journal so that I don’t forget.

    • Torin

      I put deadlines in my calendar, and short term (in the next weekish) to-do’s on a bulleted pen-and-paper list that I update frequently throughout the day. Once it’s gets to cluttered with items I’ve already completed, I rewrite the remaining items on a new page and keep going from there.

    • H

      I like old fashioned college ruled notebooks. That way it is right in front of me all day, rather than hidden in some document or app on my computer that I might forget to look at.

    • Shopaholic

      Honestly, it’s really hard. I try to flag emails so I have a master to do list, and then also have a list in a word document with all my files and all the tasks that need to be done. Then I try to hand-write a to do list (on a post it) for the day so I have something manageable to look at but this system only works when I’m running on all cylinders. Right now, I’m a bit of a mess so it’s failing.

    • Anonymous

      I like using “Tasks” in outlook. I write notes on each task and can quickly see due dates, etc.

    • New Tampanian

      I have a legal pad that is my “base” notebook. The top page is broken into different departments or project types (I’m in house). I list all of the active “matters” in each. Then when something is w/ the other party, note that. When it gets routed internally for signatures I highlight in one color. When it gets sent even higher for approval, it gets another highlight. This is my “Master List” if you will. For specific items on certain days, I either use a sticky note and list the exact items to focus on or put in my calendar.

    • Anon

      I do a digital bullet-ish journal on my ipad that rolls up to a monthly journal doc (that probably outs me to anyone who knows me lol).
      I start a page every day by clipping and pasting in my outlook agenda. Three top priority tasks and three top priority to-contacts (“call Jane about Proposal X”).
      The rest of my to do list is a running list in quadrants by urgency and importance. The less important but urgent category also helps me keep track of what my support person has on her plate. Each day i cross things off and add things… each AM i start with a copy of the previous day’s (deleting items as appropriate) so i don’t have to rewrite stuff. It’s taken me a couple years of drowning to figure out this system and I’m still tweaking it.

  6. COS alternatives

    Lately my edgy/modern favorite COS is a little too meh for me. Anyone have any other stores that you would rec (not mm lafleur pls) for quality yet strutured/modern/edgy clothes?

  7. Anonymous

    How to deal with feeling undesired by DH? I thought we had a great time on Sunday “gardening” and sent him a suggestive text or two the following day (nothing too out there, more flirty than anything) and he responded two hours later without any enthusiasm. I’m assuming he was busy at work, but he could have followed up over the last day or two with something, ANYTHING! Instead, he sent me photos of our kid. Which is nice, but really? Overall, he just doesn’t seem to have that passion or drive for me that I do for him. I really don’t know how to deal with it? I actually feel pretty embarrassed. I had stopped initiating for a while because of the rejection, but I tried again after a while with these texts and his lack of desire for me really stung. The embarrassment aspect has lingered for the past few days and it just sucks.

      • Sharon

        Some people don’t like or want suggestive texting. Just because you may be into it doesn’t mean he is.

        • Anonymous

          +1 – if he’s at work, then he may not have been in the right brain-space to respond the way he knows you want him to. It could be that nothing he came up with sounded right when he typed it out. It could be that s3xting just isn’t his natural thing.

          Has it always been this way? Have things changed in relation to other life stresses?

        • Anonymous

          +1 my bf is not into it, so I don’t do it. I still compliment him over text and tell him I appreciate him, but I have laid off the suggestive stuff.

        • Anonymous BigLaw Associate

          Yes this. Why don’t you ask your husband directly how he feels about it?

          FWIW, I personally wouldn’t be into it. My work has access to my texts. And even if not, I just don’t find it interesting.

      • Maudie Atkinson

        Anon at 9:43: Could you lay off a little? She posted it yesterday, late(ish) in the day, and got one reply. I think it’s fair for her to seek some advice one more time, and given that she’s getting some substantive responses, others seem to as well.

    • Anonymous

      Definitely talk to him about it. Your feelings are completely legitimate. Even if he doesn’t like suggestive texting, he should tell you that and come up with other ways to express attraction, not just ignore your texts and leave you feeling like an idiot. If you can’t get on the same page, I think therapy might help.

      • SC

        Agree to talk to him about it. This may or may not be your husband, but I compartmentalize. We can have a great time gardening on Sunday night, and I don’t want to flirt in the kitchen Monday morning while making coffee and feeding Kiddo breakfast, and I don’t want to receive or respond to suggestive texts at work, etc. It doesn’t mean I didn’t like gardening on Sunday or don’t want to do it again. It’s just hard for me to get into that headspace while trying to manage my day-to-day.

        • Jane

          I don’t know if OP is still reading, but I’m posting anyway. My husband is much like SC—he compartmentalizes and is uber focused. If he’s working, he’s working (whereas I’m distracted by every piece of lint that flies through my office). I used to get a similar response to s3xy texts I sent to DH when I initiated and so I finally stopped doing it because I learned that he’s not thinking about s3xy time when he’s at work. I also realized I needed to apply a little supply and demand economics to this topic in our lives. I tend to walk around the house in the mornings and evenings either naked or in my underwear. This is just what I do and have always done when living alone, but I’d also hoped it would be a little “show” to increase DH’s interest in gardening (my drive is clearly higher than his to start with). But I found it had the opposite effect. I started reducing how often I was undressed randomly around him and he became more interested in s3xy time. I think I made myself too available for awhile and didn’t make him work for it. So now I still parade around undressed when he’s traveling for work, but usually put some clothes on when he’s home….until they come off.

          Good luck, OP. Feeling rejected or not desired is a wretched feeling, whether it’s supported or not. I hope this is just limited to a texting issue and by getting away from texting, you’ll feel s3xy and desireable again.

    • Anonymous

      Btw – are you sending him personal texts on a work phone?? Lots of people now have one that allows them to access work emails etc on a personal phone. To me if I have work contacts on a device – even my own – there is NO way I want that kind of personal stuff on the same device even if texted to my own phone number. All it takes is one slip of the thumb and your personal text gets sent to a work contact.

      • Anon

        …and it’s discoverable in litigation. And his company may be monitoring the (work) phone.

    • Ellen

      Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I LOVE Fruegel Friday’s and the Keyhole Blouse, even though I can NOT wear the keyhold to work b/c of Frank. He has pretended his fingers are keys and that is VERBOTTEN in my book. Dad says he is a LECCH! And I agree, b/c he has a wife to do that stuff with.

      But anyway, as to the OP, trust me men are this way. You can be “gardening” all day with a guy, in you case your HUSBAND, and the next day, he is literaly all gardened out and has NO interest in even talking about s-xy things. Dad says it relates to the level of testersone in his blood stream after he has climeaxed. Dad says when there is NOTHING left in the tank, guy’s peeter out and must wait a few days before they feel the urge to get back into the saddel with you, or even talk about it. So do NOT worry. In a few day’s, invite him to a “garden party” and have a good time. Grandma Leyeh agrees that men can be fickel this way. Have a wonderful weekend, HIVE! I am so glad I have INTERENET access through my new ROOTER! YAY!!!

    • Anon

      If it makes you feel better, my husband isn’t into suggestive texts either. If you’re feeling otherwise undesired though (he doesn’t touch you at all outside of the bedroom, etc.), I think that’s absolutely worth a discussion and/or therapy if discussing it doesn’t fix things.

  8. Anonymust

    Any book recommendations for impostor syndrome/taking risks? Basically looking for motivation to gain confidence and get out there and pursue some ideas that have been lingering. (Not Lean In).

    • Anonymous

      I’m reading Feminist Fight Club by Jessica Bennett and I really like that it talks through dealing with different scenarios.

    • LAnon

      Try Daring Greatly, by Brene Brown, or You Are A Bad*ss, by Jen Sincero.

      Also, I know people have mixed feelings about Elizabeth Gilbert, but I like her and really enjoyed Big Magic, which is along somewhat similar lines although focuses a bit more on the creative process.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        You are a bada*s drove me insane and I only made it through about twenty pages. Wayyyyy too casual for me.

        • Anon

          I only got through the first chapter. Too much focus on a “higher power” for me.

          • Anonymous

            I flipped through it at the bookstore and put it down when she described buying a luxury car she couldn’t really afford as a good decision. I want to be a solvent bad@$$, not a broke one.

        • LAnon

          Yes, definitely read a bit of You Are A Bad*ss before buying it – I found the tone a little irritating but overall manageable; can totally understand how it might be too grating for some people.

        • Sloan Sabbith

          I realize this might have read as snarky- not saying it’s not good for some people, but I agree wsith anon/LAnon that you should read a bit of it before you buy it. :) I’ve got Daring Greatly on my to-read list and also really liked Grit (oddly, it helped a bit with the impostor syndrome, although it’s absolutely an issue for me still) and tiny beautiful things.

    • Anonymous

      I gain confidence by improving my skills. I recommend:

      How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (yes, it’s a parenting book – but the lessons are applicable everywhere with everyone, particularly at work)

      Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity

      Bossypants is a worth reading for a sense of empowerment, though. I found it surprisingly relatable/inspiring professionally.

  9. Never too many shoes...

    I have seen so many people get great travel tips here so am wondering if anyone has any “must do, see, eat” recommendations for Lisbon?

    • LondonLeisureYear

      Can’t help you with Lisbon but can help you with Porto if you are going to spend any time there. Let me know!

      • Msj

        Not the OP but ill be in Porto in August so would love ideas. We have two weeks in Portugal so are spending time between Lisbon/Porto and surrounding areas. I’m bringing my toddlers along for the ride which will color our itinerary

    • Godzilla

      You definitely have time to wander around Portugal with four days. Highly recommend doing a day trip to Sintra. Very straightforward via train.

      • Anonymous

        Second the rec for the day trip to Sintra – it is another world, especially the gardens in Quinta da Regaleira! As for food – the Time Out market has a lot of excellent eats all in one place. For very adventurous drinks, try Red Frog.

    • Elly

      Miradouros are look-out points in hilly Lisbon which function as civic spaces where locals and visitors gather to hang out, take in the view, people watch and grab a drink or two. Highly recommend checking one or more out if the weather cooperates. San Pedro de Alcantara on the list below had a great late-afternoon scene with a family-and-friends vibe when I was there, as did Santa Caterina albeit with more of a younger beergarden-ish feel.

      http://www.lisbonlux.com/lisbon/miradouros.html

    • Elly

      Miradouros are scenic look-out points in hilly Lisbon which function as civic spaces where locals and visitors gather to hang out, people-watch, take in the view and grab a drink or two. Highly recommend checking one or more. San Pedro de Alcantara on the list below was great when we were there, late-afternoon, mixed ages, friends and family. Santa Caterina was nice too, with a younger drinking crowd.

      http://www.lisbonlux.com/lisbon/miradouros.html

    • alexisfaye

      I LOVE LOVE LOVED Lisbon.

      Pasteles de Nata at Pasteis de Belem (it’s worth standing in line for, I thought).

      The salted cod (sounds gross, but so good).

      Totally take a tuk tuk tour and see the highest points in Lisbon. We spent a day with our tuk tuk lady and learned so much.

      Have cherry liqueur in a chocolate cup: Ginginha do Carmo (I can’t tell if that’s where I went, but looks well reviewed).

      I wanted to check out the Fadi museum, but didn’t make it. Also, there’s a little market outside the Carmo Convent (which I really wanted to go to but was closed when I was there, so go for me! http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/carmo-convent-ruins ).

      Explorer’s monument was very cool, as was the tower of Belem. GREAT museums (a lot of them in Belem).

      Sardines, if you’re there in the right time…

    • a millenial

      take the trolley to belem and the monastery!! so worth it. and get the egg tarts at the famous old place in belem (pasteis de belem)

  10. Anonymous

    So lately I’ve been called elitist (bc I was expressing a certain preference re colleges) and been lectured about privilege. I was always on the edge of being a republican – not a trump or tea party one, a regular one. And while I think my liberal friends think they’re trying to “educate” me, there overly liberal behavior (protesting everything under the sun; constant talk re planned parenthood) is pushing me the other way. And then I’m told I’m “privileged” to be able to think that if abortion is illegal, you’ll just buy one or fly to another country for one — as I’m thinking even poor people have credit cards and can pay min balances. Am I the only one running away from the overly liberal of the northeast??

    • anon a mouse

      I can’t tell if this is real, so I will just say this: whether or not you are elitist, you sound completely disconnected from the way many Americans live, and utterly lacking in empathy for people who do not have the things that you assume they have (money to fly for medical services, money to pay minimum balances on credit cards). I recommend you read any of the following: Nickel and Dimed, Hillbilly Elegy, or Evicted to consider worlds that are vastly different than your own, even if they are inhabited by people in your city.

      • emeralds

        Yes, strongly cosign. Regardless of your political leanings and the particular issues that are closest to your own heart, I hope that you will take the opportunity to engage with the voices and perspectives of those you dismiss so casually in your post. anon a mouse provides good book suggestions–Hillbilly Elegy might be a good place for you to start, since the author is an avowed conservative.

        And yes, it is privileged to be able to fly to another state or country to get an abortion. What if you live in Texas, and the nearest clinic is 500 miles away? What if you can’t get time off of work, especially if your state has a mandatory waiting period? What if you need those 2-3 days of work to put food in your children’s mouths and keep a roof over their head? What if you don’t have a car and don’t live in a place with public transportation infrastructure? What if you don’t have a partner or family who can provide the children you already have with care while you’re gone? What if you have an abusive partner who controls your ability to access money or credit? Your position that this is so easy falls down so quickly, once you start thinking about the lived reality for so many American women, especially those who live in states with very restrictive abortion laws.

        What I’m saying, really, is that maybe you should take a step back and think through the fact that your lived reality is not the lived reality of say, an undocumented immigrant mother of four living in Odessa, TX, who doesn’t have a driver’s license or health insurance, and just realized that she’s pregnant again (because she doesn’t have health insurance and can’t afford a reliable, long-term form of contraception).

    • Anon

      “I’m thinking even poor people have credit cards and can pay min balances. ” – Uh what?

      • Anonymous

        You don’t see them with the latest phones and eating fast food? Presumably credit and minimum balances pay for those things.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah, they should all just stop buying iPhones and then they’d be able to pay for their own health care.

        • pinky

          As one example, if all poor people had credit cards and could pay minimum balances, there would have been no one left in New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina hit because everyone would have bought a plane ticket or rented a car to get out. Some people have no credit – period. Clearly you don’t care, but that’s a reality for many.

        • Torin

          Are you seriously suggesting credit card debt is a solution to lack of access to basic healthcare…???

        • Anon

          Oh look, you solved poverty! All those poor people just need to start using their credit cards and paying those minimum balances. Yay!

          • Anonymous

            Didn’t say I solved poverty. But if you desperately want to get rid of a kid, I’m pretty sure you put it on a credit cars and pay $29.95/month. Frankly how many times are you doing this -1x? 2x? 3x? You can like the same woman gets an abortion 20 times a lifetime.

        • Anon

          I’m sick of the cell phone argument. Yes poor people have cell phones. Consider this – how would you get by in this world with no internet access and no computer? You basically wouldn’t. Want to apply for this job? Apply on line. What’s the status of my assistance check? Log into our website. For most lower middle class to poor people, a smart phone is their only computer. The cell phone companies offer the phones on a payment plan and the payments can take up most of a low income person’s monthly income but yes, they are necessary in today’s world.

          And fast food is cheaper than eating healthy food.

          Jeez, get off your high horse and quit with the Fox News soundbites. It just shows you have not taken even 5 minutes to think about it, and want to rest comfortably in your belief of your own superiority.

          • emeralds

            I have low-income students who use a smartphone because they can’t afford a laptop. (Yes, they can go to the library, but that’s not always feasible for every single reading or assignment.)

        • Alana

          In the USA, luxuries (smartphones) are cheap, while necessities (health care, housing, and education) are expensive.

    • Anonymous

      IDK, but I look a the zip codes of those doing most of the finger-waiving and just chuckle. So easy to direct the lives of others when you never have to walk more than a block to a Starbucks, etc. I knew the wife of a partner at S&C who was all into PP but you know she’d never let her daughter in there (or allow her to bring home someone from other than the right suburb, right clubs, right linneage, right resume). It’s all good to have causes, as long as they keep their distance.

      • Anonymous

        Exactly – I just don’t buy that my NYC lawyer and finance friends – very much resembling the demographic here – care SOOO much about PP. They’d never step foot in one – their own care comes from Cornell and Columbia. And no one dates anyone with the wrong pedigree or income potential in this group – closest was someone dating a teacher from the Bronx. Yet they care soooo much about their causes and I’m “privileged” when I honestly say – I’m not interested enough to protest or call reps or whatever??

        • Anon

          But you don’t know where people have been. I am privileged, I went to Ivy League schools, I have lived in NYC, and I’m a lawyer. And one time in high school, a condom broke, and I went to PP for the morning after pill during a study hall period and lunch. I never told my parents about it (although I could now if it came up), and I don’t think anyone besides my then-boyfriend knows about it. I don’t get my health care from PP now, but I recognize that it provides health care to a lot of people in less than ideal circumstances, and I care about and support that.

          • Anonymous

            Seriously — that’s who should care about PP — teen boys and their parents. Why is this always the women’s burden???

          • Anon

            Everyone should care about PP! I have always been fortunate enoughto have health insurance. Im comforted by knowing that if I ever had an unplanned pregnancy or lost my insurance PP would be an option for me. I need to know that whatever happens their doors stay open and we all have access to the care we need.

          • been there done that

            + 1 I went to Ivies, graduated top of my class, am a successful lawyer, and in college I went to PP to have an abortion. They were so kind, compassionate, and helpful.

          • Anon

            +1 Privileged, upper middle class attorney. In college I was in a new town with no doctor and I went to PP to deal with a scary medical issue.

          • Anonymous

            +1 upper middle class academic. During my PhD, I needed a morning after pill because the condom broke. In my country, it needs to be prescribed by a doctor, but also you should take it within 72 hours. Try getting a gyn appointment for the same day! Low-barrier services of PP are just so crucial.

          • nutella

            Exactly this. I would be able to afford my own lawyer and yet I believe representation is an American right and support Legal Aid, the ACLU, etc. I believe healthcare is a right and that you should not be denied healthcare that can easily be provided just because you were not lucky enough to be born into better circumstances.

            Just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean it does not serve a crucial purpose for others and you are myopic to not see that. I am not a veteran, but I believe we have a duty to assist those who have served and so I support the VA.

            As for phones, to me that is a “teach a man to fish” example. Don’t buy a phone and you can save maybe $200 and then what? Invest it in the stock market to double it? HA! Get groceries for a month and then… what? You are out of money. Internet access in 2017 is the only opportunity at the American dream anyone has. It is access to education and knowledge in places and circumstances where libraries are rare. It is access to healthcare and services. It is access to JOBS and literally ANY means of improving one’s lot in life. If that is hard for you to see, then that is an elitist attitude.

            It’s really hard to face one’s privilege. I am a thin, educated, young, white woman. I will never know what it is like to live in brown or black skin. Rules are bent for me and the benefit of good intentions are *always* assumed for me. It is uncomfortable when friends tell me the discrimination they and their families face at the hands of people who are white. It’s uncomfortable when a friend tells me she has veneers because she never went to a dentist as a child. **EMBRACE this feeling instead of running from it.** It’s important to acknowledge that sometimes the hands people are dealt are exponentially better or worse than others.

            All this is to say, you are obviously not the only one “running away” from liberals. But I would encourage you to run towards it and face the uncomfortable feeling. The problems of the country and the world are solved by those who understand and have seen the problems. And, well, do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem?

            By the way, in expressing a preferential view of education you made a grammatical error. Even having advantages of education doesn’t make us perfect, so maybe we all cut each other some slack.

          • yup

            +1 upper-middle class here. When I was about 21, my bf was long-distance for a year and I went off BC. I met up with him out of state, and needed Plan B. I never told anyone, not even the bf (he was very religious and would have disapproved). Here’s my real privilege talking: I didn’t realize until much much later that the person who approached me on my way into Planned Parenthood to ask me to “reconsider” and try to shove some pamphlet at me was talking about abortion. PP is great. I also got BC prescriptions there for a year or so in my 20s when I had only “catastrophic coverage” health insurance.

          • Wealthy Planned Parenthood Patient

            Total 2% lawyer here. I went to PP almost one year ago after my birth control failed. Yes I called my regular OB/GYN first, and tried to schedule an emergency appointment and the receptionist told me “Oh, congratulations!” And tried to sign me up for a mommy and me GROUP doctor appointment.

            I was like “I am NOT having this conversation with a receptionist,” gracefully ended the call, and walked into PP 15 minutes later. They fit me in almost right away, perhaps sensing my panic and desperation.

        • ELS

          Yes, you are. Hello from “the rest of America.”

          I live in a far exurb of a major city. We don’t have a Planned Parenthood, because I live in a area of a purple state. We have a drug problem.

          I do think you sound awfully disconnected and privileged. I’m not saying your friends don’t, but sweet heaven, if the fact that someone reminds you that you’re more fortunate, and should care about those who aren’t makes you care less? Yeah, you’re kind of a jerk.

          • ELS

            BTW: I’m still privileged as all get out. But the fact that you’re annoyed to be reminded that poor people exist, need services and basic respect makes me LOL. None of those things are extreme liberalism. They’re human decency.

        • Anonymous

          My favorite is people with private jets and multiple large houses complaining about climate change. Check your carbon footprint before you start lecturing others, OK?

        • Anonymous

          You can think something is important and useful even if you don’t actually use the service yourself. That’s how empathy works. Based on your various posts, you seem unfamiliar with the concept. As a further example, I also support Doctors without Borders even though I don’t live in a war zone. Caring about other people whose life situations are different from your own is an actual thing that people do.

        • anon

          I get what you’re saying, but I respect that your friends care about others beyond their own demographic. Just because they don’t use PP doesn’t mean they don’t realize that it is the ONLY viable option for people in other demographics. More power to them for supporting it with their voices and their dollars and their privilege, you know? It doesn’t mean they need to go to PP instead of their fancy doctors.

          • Blonde Lawyer

            If they needed an abortion, they very likely would end up at planned parenthood. At least where I live, the local hospitals/private OB/GYNS don’t do them unless they are medically necessary. Elective abortions are at Planned Parenthood or similar organizations.

      • Meg March

        Just because I don’t use PP myself now doesn’t mean that I don’t think that it provides incredible value to others. I used it in college, but even if I hadn’t, I believe that being able to control your own reproductive health is essential for everyone, not just rich women.

      • Baconpancakes

        I don’t use it now, because I have better access to health care and I prefer going to the doctor without going through a metal detector, but when I was unemployed, I was incredibly grateful to have cheap access to BCP and STI testing. I’m in a very different place in life today than I was 8 years ago, but that doesn’t mean I don’t empathize with the people who aren’t as fortunate as I am. When I was unemployed, i absolutely was grateful for access to PP, and I see no reason to forget that.

        And regarding the CC comment – paying the minimums is only possible when you have reliable income that exceeds your expenditures, even by a small amount. Many people wouldn’t qualify for a credit card if their lives depended on it, which sometimes it does. To the OP and her supporters, I strongly recommend you volunteer with a low-income-area Boys and Girls Club or other organization. You might learn some humility, which is a virtue sorely lacking today. That said, I have a hard time believing you’re not a troll, because surely no one is that out of touch, but I’ve been wrong before.

    • Anon

      Some of your opinions might be elitist. It happens. I agree that aggressive liberal behavior pushes me the other way, but only when it’s nonsensical – i.e., I express a different opinion from someone, they don’t like it, and therefore start hurling insults or logical fallacies instead of actually having a conversation.

      As for abortion, it is pretty elitist to say you’ll just fly to another country. That would still be a human rights violation for you to have to do so. Most truly poor women don’t have credit cards or checking accounts and if they do, a $700-$1500 balance (probably way more) will sink them for years. A lot of women go to Mexico to get misoprostol, though. Better than the alternative.

    • Anon

      That fact that you have the choice to run away from the northeast because you no longer want to hear about people’s fears of getting various rights taken away then yeah, you sound pretty privileged to me. And you do realize many people are uneducated about credit cards, credit card companies tend to prey on these people (not as much since the recession but it still continues), and this is a big source of income for many people who are struggling. Cant tell if youre trolling or not but all of what you wrote screams ‘these issues dont have to do with me, so i dont want to hear about it’.

    • Anon

      I am a republican, but you know, went to “elitist” schools and work in BigLaw in a major metropolitan market and am female, and apparently, judging by my social media feeds, have no conservative friends (or ones that are willing to be public about it) and I completely understand. Before the snarky comments and side remarks were tolerable, but the constant stream of hate, protest and vitriol is just amazing to me. There are other moderates or conservatives in my office and we occasionally talk about things behind closed doors as though hiding a dirty secret. The liberal bubble is so entrenched that people can’t imagine that there is a reasonably educated thought process that comes out the other way. Also, I resent the many, many, many, many articles out there right now that basically assume I can’t be feminist/pro-women/etc. if I am not also pro-abortion. Not terribly religious, but when stem cells start dividing into differentiated cells, for me, that is the beginning of life. And I don’t think that terminating that life is something we should routinely be doing as a matter of course. Women (not in every case, but in the cases I am talking about) choose to engage in behaviors that lead to babies, and they therefore *should* knowingly assume the risk that their birth control choices fail and they end up with a baby. As someone who can’t take hormonal birth control and did not want to end up pregnant before finishing my degrees, there is a reason I didn’t engage until 28. I think it’s privileged to think that risk-free activity of that nature is a right rather than a choice with risks and responsibilities. And before more hate-mongering begins, yes, I have different/more nuanced opinions when it is not a choice, but that too is something I struggle with given how strongly I believe about life – even teeny, tiny life that doesn’t yet have a voice.

      • Torin

        “And I don’t think that terminating that life is something we should routinely be doing as a matter of course.”

        Why do you think we are?

      • Anonymous

        “there is a reason I didn’t engage until 28” Congrats on never being sexually assaulted then? Or never having faced a non-viable pregnancy, or an ectopic pregnancy, or a twin pregnancy with IUGR where you can’t save them both, or a job that you can’t lose because you need the health benefits for your kid with cancer but there is no FMLA applicable, or a million other situations that you have been privileged to not have experienced.

        You might try doing some reading on the concept of ‘the only moral abortion is my abortion’ Many ‘pro-life’ women like yourself are anti-abortion except for certain exceptions that they deem okay – (not in every case, but in the cases I am talking about) that they deem okay. The reality is that decisions about a woman’s body and her health care are a matter for a woman and her doctor, because there are thousands of medical reasons alone as to why a woman may chose to end a pregnancy.

      • anonshmanon

        FWIW, I firmly disagree with your definition of when life begins, but at the same time, I will not resort to viewing or treating you as a one-dimensional anti-feminist. Call me naive, but I still believe in discourse, and I am sure there are many others.

      • Anondc

        I respect your opinion and beliefs. However, my issue with people that are “pro-life” is that many I have come across care about life from conception to birth then have zero interest in the mother or child’s life after that. What about being pro-war, pro-gun, and anti-social services for those in need? That is what constitutes as pro-life in my opinion, and while I may not agree with the abortion point, I have more of an understanding if you a proponent of cherishing life (whenever you believe life begins) throughout the entire life-course.

        I went to a Catholic high school over two decades ago and while I came out of it pretty agnostic for a variety of reasons, one thing that has always stuck with me was a teacher (super pro catholic, religious studies teacher) who emphasized that pro-life for many is about controlling women’s bodies, point blank and unfortunately coincides with a lot of conservative, anti-poor, anti- POC, etc beliefs when pro-life needs to be the exact opposite of that. That is why pro-lifers get a bad rap in my opinion, and why pro choice people like me get heated and very passionate about this topic.

        *steps off soapbox

        • cbackson

          The orthodox Catholic teaching – also called the “consistent ethic of life” – calls for caring for and respecting life from conception to natural death. A consistent ethic of life should mean working to ensure that women who continue pregnancies have health care, can continue their education, and don’t face discrimination in employment, working to provide high-quality public education, opposing the death penalty, ensuring the rights and dignity of disabled persons, pushing for military solutions to be a last resort, and working to provide high-quality healthcare from conception to the end of life. Unfortunately, that isn’t the focus of the modern pro-life movement, which is focused on abortion. I may differ from the Catholic church in that I believe in legal abortion and I also support, within appropriate controls, physician-assisted suicide, but there is a ton of common ground to be found among people who hold respect for human life and the equality of all people before God to be foundational principles. I wish there was more room for people to say, for example, yes, we disagree on abortion but we both believe that it’s critical to ensure that a college student who elects to continue a pregnancy is able to access daycare so she can graduate, so let’s get together and work to make that happen.

          • cbackson

            Well, it is for some people…they’re just not, for the most part, the active membership of the pro-life movement in the US. I’ve met a lot of the, for lack of a better term, Catholic left through various types of work (anti-death penalty, anti-poverty, etc.) I’ve done in the past. For example, I once spent a substantial amount of time working with some bada$$ nuns who run social services on an island outside of Charleston, include a health and dental clinic and an afterschool program that provides tutoring and enrichment activities (really awesome ones, actually, including a lot of art and dance stuff designed to help kids explore and celebrate their Geechee/Gullah heritage). They were against abortion, sure, but they were mostly concerned about trying to preserve the human dignity of living, born humans. Also worth noting that the way they talking about abortion was strikingly different than much pro-life rhetoric – not sl*t shaming, not painting women as incapable of making choices, not vitriolic at all. But those voices are not well-represented (in part because, again, they were a bit too busy with trying to keep young children healthy to deal with pro-life movement politics). Of course, before Pope Francis, the church was in a phase where it wasn’t super-supportive of its cadre of awesome warrior nuns.

      • anon

        The thing that gets me, though, is that it is just assumed that when a life is created it is 100% the woman’s “problem” and responsibility. It takes two to tango. What if there were mandatory paternity testing at birth, and every child born in those circumstances was expected to be supported financially and emotionally with joint custody for the first 18 years of life. I wonder how blase all these old white men would be about banning abortion then.

        • Anonymous

          The thing that gets me, though, is that it is just assumed that when a life is created it is 100% the woman’s “problem” and responsibility. It takes two to tango. What if there were mandatory paternity testing at birth, and every child born in those circumstances was expected to be supported financially and emotionally with joint custody for the first 18 years of life. I wonder how blase all these old white men would be about banning abortion then.

          • Maudie Atkinson

            Is it zero sum, though? Does causing men to shoulder some of the burden necessarily mean women have less power? I’m not seeking to be snide; I’m genuinely curious and just not sure it does.
            Your point–that it might give men some space or voice with regard to women’s bodies and choices–is well taken, but Anon at 10:19 seems to be talking about something different. “Women (not in every case, but in the cases I am talking about) choose to engage in behaviors that lead to babies, and they therefore *should* knowingly assume the risk that their birth control choices fail and they end up with a baby.” That sentence could just as easily describe these women’s male partners. They’re engaging in the same “behaviors that lead to babies,” they’re assuming the same risk of birth control failure, and yet Anon at 10:19 is only talking about women. That seems unhelpful.
            Tl;dr: Access to all measures of contraceptive care is not only a women’s issue; it’s a human rights issue.

          • anon

            FWIW, I’m pro-choice. I’m just talking about the rhetoric that I hear from old white republican politicians that makes it seem like having a child (with the life-changing financial and logistical burdens of that) should only be a consequence for a woman, while the man skips off merrily into the sunset to impregnate another woman with impunity. If abortion were illegal, I think it’s pretty messed up that women should have to shoulder that burden 100% by themselves.

      • Baconpancakes

        But the overwhelming majority of the services PP provides are preventative methods and general women’s health services. There is literally no where else for many women to get those services. Would you rather women not get those services?

      • Never too many shoes...

        You cannot be feminist as in believing in the total equality of women if you also actively believe that women should not have complete authority over their own bodies. Those are literal contradictions.

        You cannot be feminist if you actively support those who work towards limiting the ability of other women to have a choice and exercise that choice based on your own personal beliefs.

        You may not enjoy hearing that, Anon, but that is just the way that it is.

        • Different Perspective

          I disagree and believe who you can be a feminist who believes life begins at conception. I am one. There are others. You can believe in the equality of women but also believe that the life growing inside of her is just as important as her life. Many, many people disagree with this, and that’s what makes it an important issue. But expressing this opinion, as the OP has pointed out, often results in such vitriol and hatred (I’ve literally seen that opinion posted here and immediately responded to with “F*** You). That’s the OP’s point. Many people are feminist, pro-life, and will not accuse someone who disagrees of being a horrible person. We can believe that someone who is pro-choice just has a valid disagreement with us about an important issue. But it’s almost never met with that same understanding from the other side.

          This will be met with “but here’s why you’re wrong” and “but here’s why you are a horrible person for being anti-choice” and even possibly another “F*** You.” But that’s, again, the whole point. People can agree to disagree– I think this, you think that, we differ and that’s ok. By choosing an opinion– either opinion– you are clearly deeming one superior to the other. And that’s ok. But it’s not ok to tell those who disagree– on either side– that they are horrible people. Yet that is often what happens. “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” -Aristotle

          • Never too many shoes...

            If you believe that a woman’s life is equal to that of a fetus, well, I think you’re wrong. but have at it. As long as you only believe it for *yourself*. But trying to enforce that belief as law, thereby making *your* choice the one that other women have to live by? That is not feminist.

            And hot take, if you hold to your beliefs for yourself only but magnanimously allow other women to do what they believe without your control or interference? You are pro-choice.

          • Anonymous

            But that isn’t what Never too many shoes.. said. She did not say you can’t be a feminist if you believe life begins at conception. She said that that you cannot be a feminist if “you also actively believe that women should not have complete authority over their own bodies.”

            To me, having complete authority over my own body means that I could elect to have an abortion if I get pregnant and decide this is not the right time for me to have a baby/whatever other reason I decide. But it also means that I could value my belief that life begins at conception and elect to keep the pregnancy.

            To me, the distinction is choice. That’s why pro choice =/= pro abortion. Pro choice means allowing women the freedom and authority to make the decisions about their bodies – regardless of what that choice is.

            Side note Anondc’s point about self-identified pro-lifers often seeming to care only about the fetus in utero and not giving two flying f*$&S about the child once it’s born, and also often being pro-torture, pro-war, pro-death penalty, and anti-social services. Those contradictions lead me to believe that for many (not all), being pro life is really about controlling women’s bodies.

          • anonypotamus

            But that isn’t what Never too many shoes.. said. She did not say you can’t be a feminist if you believe life begins at conception. She said that that you cannot be a feminist if “you also actively believe that women should not have complete authority over their own bodies.”

            To me, having complete authority over my own body means that I could elect to have an abortion if I get pregnant and decide this is not the right time for me to have a baby/whatever other reason I decide. But it also means that I could value my belief that life begins at conception and elect to keep the pregnancy.

            To me, the distinction is choice. That’s why pro choice =/= pro abortion. Pro choice means allowing women the freedom and authority to make the decisions about their bodies – regardless of what that choice is.

            Side note Anondc’s point about self-identified pro-lifers often seeming to care only about the fetus in utero and not giving two flying f*$&S about the child once it’s born, and also often being pro-torture, pro-war, pro-death penalty, and anti-social services. Those contradictions lead me to believe that for many (not all), being pro life is really about controlling women’s bodies.

          • anonypotamus

            But that isn’t what Never too many shoes.. said. She didn’t say you can’t be a feminist if you believe life begins at conception. She said that that you cannot be a feminist if “you also actively believe that women should not have complete authority over their own bodies.”

            To me, having complete authority over my own body means that I could elect to have an abortion if I get pregnant and decide this is not the right time for me to have a baby/whatever other reason I decide. But it also means that I could value my belief that life begins at conception and elect to keep the pregnancy.

            To me, the distinction is choice. That’s why pro choice =/= pro abortion. Pro choice means allowing women the freedom and authority to make the decisions about their bodies – regardless of what that choice is.

            +1 to Anondc’s point about self-identified pro-lifers often seeming to care only about the fetus in utero and not giving two flying f*$&S about the child once it’s born, and also often being pro-torture, pro-war, pro-death penalty, and anti-social services. Those contradictions lead me to believe that for many (not all), being pro life is really about controlling women’s bodies.

          • anonypotamus

            sorry for the duplicate posts! was obviously having computer issues this morning

      • Alana

        There are many women who “willingly” have sex but are coerced. Sadly, reproductive coercion is a thing, and the poorer a woman is, the more she is at risk.

        I cannot speak to other groups, but in poor communities where many men are dead or in jail, unincarcerated men are outnumbered by women. This number imbalance means that men set the terms of engagement. This means that men have the upper hand, so women are less likely to demand condoms because “what she won’t allow, another woman will.” Having to choose between eternal singlehood or relationships with a built-in power imbalance is unpleasant, and those who do not have to deal with this issue are fortunate.

      • Being a B

        “there is a reason I didn’t engage until 28”

        If you really did not have s *x until you were 28, honey, let me just tell you straight up – it had nothing to do with your pro-life convictions. Your looks, maybe. Your personality, almost certainly. But not your pro-life convictions. Don’t get it twisted.

        Do you even have enough s *x nowadays to worry about this being a problem for you? my guess would be no

        • anonymous

          Dude, seriously? I take issue with her statement (also as someone who abstained until I was about that age for a set of reasons that totally isn’t relevant here), but it’s things like this that are really not helpful to having an actual conversation about hard things that we really need to be able to do.

          Don’t be a B.

    • SC

      I think you should decide your political opinions based on your own reflection and values, not on whether your friends’ activities annoy you. If your friends are lecturing you, and you don’t want to be lectured, disengage. If you’re annoyed at their protests, get off social media for a while.

      • anonshmanon

        Yes, this. Please resist the urge to run from their scolding tones. This escalation in defensiveness is happening on both sides, but it doesn’t have to be! Tell them to talk to you like an adult, and in turn entertain their ideas.

      • Torin

        +sosomany

        I’m pretty liberal myself, and I don’t like the “education” culture on social media either. I find it very off-putting, even (actually, especially) when I agree with the substantive point being made underneath all the snideness. But it doesn’t change the logic of my opinions. It only changes whether or not I want to talk to those specific people who are acting that way. Your opinions should be based on logic, not whether or not you’re offended by someone being a jerk at you.

    • Spirograph

      I think your point about credit cards does sound out-of-touch. Money is not the only piece that causes lack of access to healthcare. Flying to another country requires a passport. Do you think most working-class people have do enough international travel that they have a current passport? It also requires time. Do you think maybe some of the women who want an abortion are in that position because they cannot support themselves and existing children on their unsecure job without healthcare or paid time off? Maybe they work shifts. Maybe they don’t have control of their schedule. Maybe they will lose their job if they dip out to another country for a couple days and miss work.

      It’s just not that simple. I’m not trying to sound preachy, and I don’t think you’re an awful person or even unique in thinking that credit cards are a simple solution. The fact is, though, that it’s a lot more complicated than that. Almost everything is more complicated than you (the general you, not you specifically) think it is.

      • Anonymous

        Right. All I’m saying is that if you needed a way, you’d find one. I’m not suggesting it’d be easy or fun but you’d do what you had to do.

        • Anon what?

          Okay Anonymous – i’ll bite.

          Please walk me through exactly how a woman with a credit card that enables her to buy a plane ticket to a foreign country to obtain an abortion is supposed to “find a way” when she has:
          – a minimum wage shift job that she will lose if she misses a few days of work
          – another child whose daycare bill she needs to make, and no one to watch the child while she is gone for a few days
          – no passport
          – no money for the expedited passport fee
          – no computer or printer to complete the passport application, and no way to get to the library, post office, or kinkos bc she doesnt have reliable transport and they are closed when she’s off work most days
          – no money in the bank, so if she loses her jon, she can’t pay rent – and she doesnt have money for first month + deposit for a new place

          I could go on, but i don’t think it is as easy as put the trip/procedure on a CC. And i also admit that i come from privilege and am therefore 100% confident that there is a lot i’m leaving out bc i’ve never had to think about it.

        • Spirograph

          You need means to have options, though ! If abortion becomes illegal again, the options for women-without-means will be an illegal, potentially very unsafe, abortion or continuing the pregnancy. Traveling to another country to get a safe, legal abortion will not be on the list for so, so, so many women. I am not OK with that. Some people are.

          I admit, I am kind of confused by your position. It sounds like you’re not against abortion on principle, which I would understand, you’re against ensuring that it’s safe and accessible.

        • Anon

          Unfortunately, many women in the situation Spirograph describes would likely choose an illegal and possibly dangerous abortion near home, not applying for a passport and flying to another country for a legal abortion. That’s the “way” when you’re in a desperate situation.

        • KateMiddletown

          In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.
          “Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”

        • Anon

          Anonymous at 10:39, your error in logic and judgment are that you seem to assume everyone is just like you. I’m assuming you are very young.

          • KateMiddletown

            that’s not fair. i’m assuming Anon is just ill informed. many much older people hold antiquated, ill-informed views, too.

      • January

        Case in point: Donald Trump is now telling reporters that being president is harder than he thought it would be. (But Fox News made it look so easy!)

        • Alana

          A big problem with him is that he is ignorant, and he often doesn’t know what he doesn’t know, so he overestimates his knowledge. – the Dunning-Kruger principle

    • anon

      My mother (b. 1941) told me that people would fly to Sweden to get abortions in the 1960s. Obviously, an expensive trip, probably on par with buying another car. But if you’re middle class and feel that your daughter’s entire future is on the line you’d probably do it.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah absolutely. That’s the privileged part. Not everyone is middle class. Not everyone has a mom to help her.

    • Anon

      In case abortion ever does become illegal, every single woman alive should be aware of this: http://plancpills.org/

      Medication abortion is safe, effective, and private. Know your rights (your essential human rights, not what the Supreme Court or your father or your priest says your rights are) and spread the word!

      • Anon

        The website makes it seem much easier than it is. I used the pill combination after a miscarriage and it worked for me. A friend, however, went through 3 rounds of pills and still had to have a D&C. Without medical intervention, she would have been in real trouble.

        • Anon

          That’s unfortunate, but that doesn’t mean that women shouldn’t know about it. Better to get an abortion if you want one and then seek medical care if needed (which is always advised anyway – you need to be able to access medical care in an emergency for any medical procedure). These pills have been lifesaving for women around the world and lack of information in the U.S. should not be a barrier to anyone. There are enough other barriers.

    • Smitty

      This post can’t possibly be serious, but here goes:

      An example: if you make minimum wage of $7.25 you cannot afford to fly to Canada to get an abortion. The weekly take-home pay for a 40-hour-a-week minimum-wage employee, after Social Security and Medicare taxes is $13,926.38 per year, or just over $1,150 per month.

      A flight from Mississippi to Toronto on a random weekend in May looks to be around $450. A hotel in Toronto is around $150. The woman might also have to take time off work (unpaid), or risks losing her job if she has to miss work. What if she has children? She’ll have to bring them along or pay for childcare.

      That’s around $600, not including missed income or other expenses. That’s more than half the women’s hypothetical income for that month, plus she still has to feed herself, pay rent, make car payments, etc.

      When abortions are difficult or impossible to obtain, women resort to hurting themselves to end the pregnancy, or paying someone unethical and not medically trained, in dirty conditions, to help that. It’s incredibly sad.

      • Bonnie

        Don’t forget that she would also have to get from the airport to the hotel and the clinic and may need to spend several days in Toronto for pre-procedure testing and recovery. It would end up costing most of the woman’s monthly income.

      • ELS

        And! Even if the option is “put it on a credit card” your credit limit is related to your A) credit history (generally better if you have more money and aren’t carrying a balance regularly) and B) income.

        When I got my first credit card at 21 in college I was working a minimum wage job (not forced to live in a minimum wage salary, thanks to the enormous advantage of having parents who could help me pay for school/housing costs). My credit limit was $500. I’d even had some credit before that, as my parents and I financed a car for me in college (read: my parents paid the loan payments — thank you, Mom and Dad).

        It’s entirely possible that, even if we take the OP’s suggestion and just ask women to pay for healthcare on credit, a woman in this scenario wouldn’t have access to enough credit to make it workable. And that’s assuming she was using all her credit to do this, and not for things like groceries, etc.

    • Anonymous

      . Literally nothing more privileged than thinking people can just fly to another country for an abortion. You’re lucky they aren’t also calling you ignorant.

        • Sharon

          My father-in-law, a now-retired OB-GYN and a gruff, irascible get-off-my-lawn kind of guy, breaks down in tears when he thinks about how, in pre-Roe-v-Wade days, he had to care for women who had given themselves abortions using whatever methods they could. He tried his best, but some of these women died from sepsis. Going back to those days is just completely unacceptable.

    • Anonymous

      It’s not just about PP – it’s about everything from climate change to FCPA to everything else that results in lectures about privilege. As I’m thinking – climate change isn’t good but it’ll get reversed by the next administration’s policy or if it doesn’t, we’ll deal OR yeah FCPA is BS bc how exactly do you get business done in other parts of the world without bribery and we’re holding our businesses back with nonsense rules. But of course I’m elite enough to side with businesses on this . . . .

      • Anonymous

        If you can’t get business done internationally without bribery, you’re not very good at business.

        Climate change won’t be “reversed” by the next administration’s policy. You don’t seem to understand how climate change works.

        • Anonymous

          Ok sorry not reversed but slowed down. Come on – yes it absolutely will. Climate change measures were put into place in large part to respond to the things we did to the environment in the 60s-80s — and we’ve come a long way. So yes we can absolutely take a 4-8 yr step back and get back to it without the angst that people seem to have.

          And I’m guessing you’re not in business bc LOL.

          • Bonnie

            Climate doesn’t work that way. If we start drilling into protected areas now, we can’t undo that in 4-8 years. Trumps also cut funding to clean up the Chesapeake Bay. Without clean up efforts, the marine life will die and those who depend on that industry will lost their jobs. Once a species is dead, we can’t just bring it back in 4-8 years.

          • Anonymous

            That’s not climate change – that’s drilling and clean up. Most of us think of climate change as hotter/colder/extreme temps; surprise weather occurrences etc.

          • Anonymous

            +1 to Bonnie. That’s not how climate change works.

            And I work in oil and gas. That international enough for you?

          • Anonymous

            @ Anon 11:37

            She wasn’t giving you climate change examples. She was replying to the aspect of your comment that we just ‘reverse’ things like we did in the 1960s-1980s. She provided examples of things that cannot be reversed/undone. And just FYI, a lot of the stuff in the 1960s-1980s hasn’t been reversed. E.g. drastic decline in biodiversity.

            If this is your reading comprehension level, I kinda see why you need to resort to bribery to get business done.

        • Anonymous

          +1 to your climate change sentence

          LMAO that climate change is reversible. Humans will eventually no longer be able to live on this planet, the speed of climate change dictates which future generation get “phased out.” I am guessing based on your other comments that you DGAF about anyone but yourself, so it’s no wonder learning the facts about this doesn’t bother you.

      • Torin

        “FCPA is BS bc how exactly do you get business done in other parts of the world without bribery and we’re holding our businesses back with nonsense rules. But of course I’m elite enough to side with businesses on this . . . .”

        Name one example.

        I too work in oil and gas and have lived and worked internationally in other contexts as well and I call BS on this.

        • Frozen Peach

          I work in international business for a Fortune 500 company and I call so much BS OMG. If anything demonstrates this poster’s ignorance, that is it.

      • Alana

        Climate change is acknowledged by most of planet Earth, with exceptions like certain lobbyists and the members of Congress they support, generally on the right.

        Right-leaning institutions that understand climate change is a fact include the US military and major corporations. Despite what politicians say, people are making plans. In fact, part of the turmoil in Syria was caused by the drought on record for the area for about 5 years, followed by large numbers of people moving from the countryside to the cities.

    • Sloan Sabbith

      People will just fly to get abortions…? Can’t possibly see why people would call you privileged.
      Example 1: Poor mom of two in an abusive relationship doesn’t want to bring another kid in and is raped by boyfriend. Gets pregnant. No reliable childcare to leave her kids with other than their daycare, and her partner keeps an eye on everything she spends. She has no credit of her own to get a credit card (…which is the case with many DV survivors), much less the passport or ability to jet off to another country to get an abortion. If she even tried her kids would have no one to take care of them. She needs local, accessible, free, confidential care that is safe.
      Example 2: Single mom of two goes on a few dates with a guy. She’s on BC. They sleep together, but her BC fails. She gets pregnant and guy disappears. She holds down two jobs while also parenting her two young kids. Neither of them offer paid time off and she needs every cent to pay rent and daycare. She can take a day off once a month. Dad of her kids isn’t in the picture and her family is not a safe option for childcare- her dad hasn’t been around and her mom is an alcoholic. Her brothers aren’t reliable. She doesn’t have a passport. Neither do her kids. She has a credit card but the limit is about $2K and it’s only got about $1.1K on it because she had to use it to pay rent last month after her car broke down and she used the rent money to pay for the fix so she could get to work. Oh, and she knows she’s got a history of massive bleeding- she hasn’t had the time to find out the diagnosis, but her grandfather had hemophilia. If she flies off to another country, how is she supposed to pay for it? If she uses a coat hanger (JFC I can’t believe I’m explaining this) she could die. She needs a solution that is local, convenient, and safe.

      • Anonymous

        Right. And by virtue of the fact that you hang out here I can tell that soooo much of your social circle consists of abused single moms with 3 kids working at WMT with alcoholic parents and thus you care sooooo deeply that those folks are taken care of. Give me a break. Most of you here and most of my friends would never befriend such a person in real life – but the plight of the single mom who can’t keep her legs shut makes an excellent talking point when screaming about policy.

        • Anonymous

          *eyeroll *

          Not sure why the concept that people care about people that they do not personally know is so difficult for you to grasp. NPD much?

        • Sloan Sabbith

          Wow, you’re just a real b**ch, aren’t you?

          I work in legal aid (as you would know if you spent more than three seconds trying to pi*s people off here and were a frequent reader). I’ve experienced DV and SA and I net $36K per year. I work with women who have been abused, raped, and otherwise are in situations you can’t even dream of. I also work with homeless individuals who you probably won’t come within 10 feet of. They are some of my absolute favorite people in the entire world and I could talk about how remarkable my clients are for hours. My dad is an alcoholic and many of my closest friends from high school have found themselves in these situations you think I can’t know anything about.

          Go f**k yourself.

          • Anonymous

            Defensive much? Congrats on your excellent professional choices – lol

          • Frozen Peach

            Sloan, just wanted to say thank you for the work you do. For every nasty comment from this troll, there are 100 readers cheering you on.

            I mean this 100% sincerely. Congratulations on your excellent professional choices.

            Also, we could take these troll threads and easily write an excellent “Corporette’s Thoughtful Guide to Major American Policy Issues”

        • Godzilla

          LOL WTF. Are you literally saying that a single mother should not have s9x?

      • Never too many shoes...

        And if you would like a concrete example of how that looks, OP, maybe just ask the thousands of women in Ireland who have to go that route.

        • Sloan Sabbith

          That would involve talking to poor people. The horror. Something this person has obviously never done.

          • Anonymous

            That would involve talking to poor people. The horror. Something this person has obviously never done.

          • Sloan Sabbith

            No, I advocate for DV survivors every day, that’s why I care so deeply. Good guess, though- unlike you, I do try to surround myself with a wide range of people with different life experiences!

          • LAnon

            Do you really not understand the concept of thinking that someone is worthy of having access to necessary services even if they are not your friend or in your social group?

            I donate to Heifer Project even though NOT ONE of my friends is a subsistence farmer in sub-Saharan Africa. And to the ASPCA even though NONE of my bridesmaids were stray dogs. Sometimes I give money to panhandlers even though they’re not part of our brunch group.

            It’s so weird, this concept that I believe all humans are worthy of respect, dignity, and opportunity even if I haven’t met them and become friends with them.

          • MargaretO

            What is wrong with you that you only care about what happens to people you know personally? What is wrong with you that the people you know personally have never experienced or don’t currently experience struggles that are outside of your experience? Not everyone lives in a bubble made up exclusively of people who are as privileged as them, and even some people that do still feel compassion for those who live lives very far away from theirs. If the base of your conservatism is that you truly only care about the problems you can stare straight in your face, then yes you are actually a terrible person who is missing the capacity for empathy that most people have (including lots of people who vote republican).

          • Godzilla

            I don’t understand why I have to know someone in a certain situation in order to want to support them. I may not personally know someone who’s been raped (I probably do) but that doesn’t mean I won’t support RAINN or the like. I just don’t understand your perspective, Anon @ 12:26pm.

      • Ellen

        Sloan Sabbath, please take a chill pill. You seem way overely stressed! After all, you do not want to bust a blood vessel venteing to the HIVE on this websight, do you? FOOEY! Both you and me need to find a decent boyfreind to keep us company. YAY!!!

        • Anon

          Oh, this just made me LOL. This one just had to chime in, didn’t she …..

        • Sloan Sabbith

          Actually, wait, I don’t think I’ve seen Ellen call out individuals before, I’m honored.

    • anonymama

      I think the “overly liberal” cities of the northeast have not been experiencing too much population shrinkage, but with the ridiculous real estate prices I don’t think anyone would be too heartbroken if some people decided to move away.

      I just think as a practical policy matter, support for planned parenthood makes sense. Support for addressing the real effects of climate change makes sense. I do think some people get carried away with the name-calling, but I can’t really fault them for caring about how actual people are affected by public policy. I think you overestimate how much of a socio-economic bubble your friends and acquaintances actually live in… some of the people I know from the most fortunate backgrounds went to Planned Parenthood as college students, and continue to support it for the sake of men and women from all backgrounds.

      OR, you could always just invite them to get a beer with you, and discuss your political views in person! As in the beer commercial, face-to-face talk often has a way of moderating people.

  11. Anon

    Casual office here – looking for a rec for good quality flat closed toe espadrilles for summer – something like Soludos. Has anyone owned those? Or others they like? Thanks!

    • Mary

      soludos are great. they probably only last a summer of heavy use, but I really like mine.

    • waffles

      Love soludos. I think mine lasted 2 years, but they are not meant to be forever. The rope soles are great for keeping your feed dry in the summer.
      Note that they will feel very tight when you get them, but the fabric will stretch. I literally could not get my feet in the shoes at first.

      Picked up a pair from Diegos for this summer – better price. I’m not sure how well they will hold up, but they look good and they have a lot of great options for styling and fabric.

    • Virve Georgeson

      Here are some espadrille flats I would recommend, mainly because they are by manufacturers who produce shoes that are well designed and have cushioned insoles to be comfortable for long term wear, such as at work every day on hard floors. You should choose espadrilles that have a thick rather than a thin bottom such as that on casual canvas boat shoe type espadrilles that are good for a day at the beach, but not a day at the office. I note you wanted closed toe shoe, however if the toes are closed the back of the shoe can be open if there are foot straps or ankle straps that can be adjusted. These will stabilize the foot. Additional stability can be added to any shoes with inserts also. Ankle straps or metallic finish can add a fashionable touch of elegance to simple espadrilles and make them more suitable for wearing with skirts.

      Nine West
      Unrico Espadrille Flat – jute trim sole, in silver, blue, tan, floral $65
      Unah – closed toe, open heel, ankle strap, jute trim sole $77

      Stuart Weitzman
      Couscous Embellished Suede Espadrilles – Blue or tan, jute trim sole and ankle straps $170

  12. Leatty

    For those of you who had the ability to work from home at the end of your pregnancy, when did you find that it made sense for you to do so? I’m nearing the end of my pregnancy, and I am trying to decide when I want to begin working from home 100%. I was thinking two weeks before my due date (unless there are signs that I might deliver earlier), but I was curious about others’ experiences.

    • anon

      I worked from home for the last month. It was winter, so I didn’t want to deal with cold weather and bad road conditions, but it was a godsend, especially to sleep in a little more in the morning, work from my couch with my feet up and to be able to live in leggings. My suggestion is to do it as early as you think you might want to.

    • Lilliet

      I was on modified bed rest for the last 5 weeks of my pregnancy and was lucky to be able to work from home during that entire time. If you’re having a normal pregnancy, I would bet two weeks out would be good. But, I would make sure you discuss with your boss the possibility of it being more if you go past your due date.

    • Anonymous

      I live a short distance from my office.

      I had to go in every day for their monster printer and make sure to carry home documents as if I might WFH the next day (but to also transition in case the baby came that night).

      Ideally, you’re not carrying anything primarily during your last 2 weeks, so it’s largely just for show anyway (or with someone shadowing you). I’d say come in 50% so that the person who takes over for you can do it with some oversight in the last couple of weeks.

      Signed,
      First baby was 10 days early — surprise!

      • Leatty

        I hope mine will come early – I’m over being pregnant! All of my files are electronic, and my coworker does the exact same work I do, so the transition should be fairly smooth (especially since I have been keeping my files fully up to date with everything he would need to know to pick up a file and run with it).

    • Anonymous

      I preferred going in because it helped me focus on work, until the last few days when I was just super uncomfortable. My office was pretty close to both home and the hospital, though.

    • Anon

      I think I started working part time from home around 6 months and full time around 8. Public transport combined with my swollen feet and ankles and aching back and inability to hold my bladder for longer than 40 minutes just made it impossible to go in.

      The issue I had with WFH before my kids were born was that I found myself WFH after they were born instead of truly taking a leave. Technically I was on leave, but people got used to me being able to take a call or answer emails from home and they didn’t stop, except to add a “how’s the baby?” to the beginning of an email.

      In hindsight I wish I’d set firmer boundaries so my recommendation to you is that you think about that ahead of time.

      • Anon

        1st pregnancy, but I plan to go in until the end, although likely tapering my hours off the last two weeks given what I’ve been told to expect for comfort/energy levels. My OB is still thinking about inducing me a week early given some other risk factors, which would make it easy to plan the end, but this girl is so active and so feisty and constantly trying to headbutt (or kick? feels bigger) her way out it wouldn’t surprise me if she came early. Despite constantly hearing first babies are always late, I was (as a first-born) 4 weeks early and my husband was 2 weeks early (only child). My office is closer to the hospital than my home anyhow, and my husband works just down the street from my hospital.

    • D. Meagle

      I started to WFH on the regular about 6 weeks before my due date. I’d go in for 1/2 day about once or twice a week just to show my face. It was the summer. I was hot and swollen. Nothing fit. At home I could blast the AC, wear a sports bra and sweats. My commute was about an hour in the car, and to be honest it was just too uncomfortable to sit that long (especially without bathroom breaks). I was more productive WFH.

      But definitely set boundaries when leave starts. I kept my blackberry in a drawer and checked it once or twice a day. Didn’t take calls from work – let them roll to VM and called back at my leisure. Once colleagues and clients realized I was on leave, things slowed down anyway.

    • lawsuited

      I had a healthy pregnancy but was carrying a pretty big baby, so walking any distance and sitting for long periods became difficult for me at around 36 weeks.

  13. Losing voice

    I lost my voice fairly badly a few years back. Unfortunately, I had really strained it singing while sick and then it went away entirely for a day or two. I feel like it’s still not back to 100% today – my throat seems to get irritated or fatigued if I talk for more than a few minutes without water. Who would I even see to deal with this – PCP? Are there at-home remedies or exercises to use or anything?

    • Anonymous

      I did voice therapy with a voice therapist who works for an ENT practice. They scoped my throat and found what the problem was. Turns out, it wasn’t allergies.

    • Stati

      Start with your PCP. They’ll refer you to an ENT, who will scope you (look at your vocal cords with a tiny camera) and may or not refer you to a voice therapist (usually a speech pathologist with specialization in voice). I am a doc whose past life was as a speech therapist, so I feel confident writing the following tips:

      1) Do not google “voice exercises” or attempt to fix this on your own by singing, shouting, whispering, changing your pitch, etc. Depending on what’s wrong, you could make the problem worse.

      2) Go into your doctor’s appointment with a list of all prescription and over the counter medicines you take, as well as any supplements.

      3) Try to document any patterns you notice. For example, does it seem to happen more if you’re outside at a soccer game (allergies + yelling?), or maybe at work (stress?)

      4) For the interim, a couple of suggestions – try to sip water throughout the day. Hard candies can also help. If you’re a teacher or in a situation where you do a lot of public speaking, wear a mic. Use a whistle (I know, I know…) if you have to yell at your kids a lot to get their attention. Avoid caffeine (sometimes that helps).

      This has gone on long enough, it’s worth looking into. Depending on the problem, there’s a lot of potential solutions – everything from medication to voice therapy to vocal fold injections, etc etc etc. You don’t have to put up with a MIA voice! :)

  14. The Stig

    My nails are in super bad shape. Basically, last year was horrible for me and self care went out the window (when, yes, I know it should have been more of a priority). So it’s legitimately been over a year since my nails were done and I have never been capable of keeping them nice on my own–they’re a project. I’m planning on getting them done today but want to know how you all would handle tipping. The mani/pedi will cost about $60, I was planning on tipping $20 if everything goes well. Is that reasonable, not enough?

    • Never too many shoes...

      I think even for nails in very bad shape that a 33% tip is sufficient.

    • Torin

      I would say 20% is plenty, but if you want to be generous I’m sure the manicurist will appreciate it.

      • The Stig

        Thanks all. I’m sure I’m paranoid/over-compensating for how embarrassed I am about the shape they’re in.

        • anon

          I am having a hard time understanding what you’re talking about. Unless they are encrusted with p00 or something, what is there to be embarrassed about? The vast majority of the people on this planet have never ever gotten a manicure in their lives. I trim and clean my nails most of the time and get a manicure maybe once or twice a year. That’s it. Should I be horribly embarrassed too? If so, why?

          Did someone in your life traumatize you about this? My mom is constantly on me about how disgusting my feet look and how much I need a pedicure, and she’s not wrong, but I don’t really GAF. Ya know? Even if someone was mean to you about this, you don’t have to be embarrassed.

          • The Stig

            I can’t answer how you should feel about your nails, I just know how I feel about mine.

          • anon

            Okay, I am sorry that I dismissed your feelings. I was trying to be encouraging, as it sounds like you have an extremely disproportionate amount of shame about your fingernails that I think you might feel better if you let go of. I could have worded what I said better. Sorry.

          • Smitty

            Are they curly and four inches long? No? Then you don’t have to be embarrassed or tip something absurd. 33% tip seems really high. 20% would be fine.

        • pugsnbourbon

          Estheticians/nail artists, doctors, therapists, plumbers – I assume they’ve all seen much, much worse than I’m bringing to them.

          And if not – I’ve given them a great story!

    • AEK

      Agree that’s more than generous. I gave my standard 20% on a pedi last weekend, a spur-of-moment one, where I had very flaky and hairy calves that I felt bad about. I think they have seen it all.

    • Senior Attorney

      Agree that they’ve seen it all and a 33% tip is above and beyond.

      And funny story re: “they’ve seen it all” — I once asked my aesthetician if she ever got grossed out waxing people’s private parts, and she said, “after a while, it’s all just skin. and. hair.”

  15. Anonymous

    Holy s— Tillerson is cutting 2300 State Dept jobs?! 1700 through “attrition” and 600 thru buyouts. Gov’t jobs have like no attrition – it will take years to get 1700 people to leave unless the State Dept has thousands of people at age 63. And when diplomats leave, we just don’t replace them??

    • Anon

      Thankfully this is just in the proposed budget and likely so it still needs to get approved – this is indeed frightening but not set in stone yet!!

      • Anonymous

        The odd thing – to me at least – is that Tillerson and a few other agency heads have agreed w these measures from the start. When Trump initially said something of cutting the State Dept budget by 30% – Tillerson AGREED that a 26-28% cut was doable. Wouldn’t you expect an agency head to fight tooth and nail to keep as much funding as possible and argue that it’s impossible to do the job if the budget goes down by more than 5%??

        • Anonymous

          These agency heads all seems specially curated to the idea of cutting agency responsibility. I don’t think any of them actually want an agency to run, so I am not in the least bit surprised by any of them being okay with staff cuts.

    • anonshmanon

      Could be an attempt at looking proactive, “we’re cutting so many jobs”, while in actuality keeping things running by cutting them very slowly.

    • ITDS

      The government in general has a LOT of baby boomers working for it, and they are quite old enough to retire. Finding 600 people nearing retirement age who could be induced to volunteer to leave is possible. And they won’t all be “diplomats” – many of them will be career support / admin types.

      • Anon

        I read something (can’t remember where) that 2/3 of the gov’t is over age 60. I find that shocking – and not sure if it’s accurate – as I worked in a revolving door agency that leaned MUCH younger. Though people tell me other agencies are different bc people view them as life jobs and bc no one leaves until retirement, there is little/no hiring.

      • KateMiddletown

        Does this include postal workers and federal employees in state branches or is this beltway exclusive?

        • Anon

          What – the part of baby boomers and maybe about 60+% of the gov’t being over age 60? It’s all federal – not just DC. I’ve lived in secondary (if you can even call them that) markets before where snagging a federal job – at a district court, at the social security admin, VA etc. – is like a lottery ticket. Not bc federal administrative jobs are paying millions, but bc they provide a certain stability that you don’t have when you’re in a place that used to be a manufacturing town but every few months another factory shuts down, cuts an entire shift etc. People try hard to get those fed jobs making 50k with healthcare, 401k, 401k matching etc. -and pretty much stay for life. And usually they end up having pretty nice homes, cars, sometimes even a boat or vacation cabin or something bc 30 yrs of job stability allows you to save up nicely. So yeah I can see a lot of that population being in their 50-60s now.

      • Anon

        Also note that well over half of the State department’s headcount is foreign service local employees (likely not US citizens), not diplomats. IME not at all unusual for diplomats (of varying levels) at local embassies to find jobs for their spouses at the embassy as well. That’s a pretty natural area for attrition as diplomats rotate through to different postings.

        • Anon

          Aren’t most American diplomats married to other Americans? How many could possibly be married to locals from whatever country they’re posted in?

          • Wildkitten

            A “local hire” is someone who is not specifically chosen and moved to the country to work. So often, American A is a diplomat, and Spouse A trails to… Botswana… and then applies for “local hire” jobs at the embassy. Really smart capable often but not always Americans doing always really important work.

        • joan wilder

          I’m going to quibble a little with your comment. The EFM (eligible family member) jobs are not make work jobs but fill roles needed in the functioning of an Embassy. While they may be vacant when one couple leaves, they are filled by incoming spouses. If not, there is work that is not getting done, which will impact operations just as the overall hiring freeze will.

          • Anon

            Agreed and not meaning to say that they are ‘make work’ but I have plenty of personal experience where when someone left, the position simply was not filled and the rest of us were expected to take over those (absolutely vital) responsibilities. The EFM to me seems like an easy target for people leaving and responsibilities being redistributed.

    • anon

      State department employs 69,000 people (according to wikipedia). 2300 is about 3 1/3%, so it’s significant but not in double digits or anything. With 69k employees it’s not hard to imaging that one or two thousand retire or quit every year.

      • Anonymous

        Retire maybe – depends on how aged that agency is. Quitting – doubt it; there’s not fantastic employability for certain things outside the govt – I’m fairly sure a general poly sci grad writing reports on who knows what is not exactly able to switch jobs easily and is hanging tight to State.

      • joan wilder

        From State’s own numbers, the 69,000 is made up of 13,000 Foreign Service Officers, 11,000 Civil Service, and 45,000 Locally Employed Staff at overseas posts. (The latter being the group mentioned by Anon @ 11:04). Many of these have taken great personal risk to work for the U.S. government to support diplomatic and development missions (and are the staff who keep the lights on when Americans have been evacuated to safer shores) and in many countries dedicate 10,20, 30 years of service. I find these proposed job cut numbers staggering, and penny wise pound foolish.

        • anon

          ” Many of these have taken great personal risk to work for the U.S. government to support diplomatic and development missions”

          Very true, but most of them haven’t. A receptionist or secretary at a consulate in a democratic country has other options.

          • joan wilder

            My take may be skewed because I have only ever worked in countries/posts with danger and/or hardship pay and it is not hyperbole to say I owe my safety (and likely my sanity) to our locally employed staff. It also feels [less polite synonym for lousy] after volunteering to serve in a combat zone to hear our work is not valued and deemed expendable. [Not saying that was at all here on thissite but the overall public dialogue.]

          • 1132 and 1201 anon

            I did not intend to diminish the sacrifice and excellent work done by the State Department. I also work for the federal government (different department) and think that we do important work too.

            The flip side of the attitude your discussing is the idea that there should be no layoffs by government, ever. I’m not owed a job for life by my department (and certainly it would be a protection that no one in the private sector receives).

    • Frozen Peach

      Isn’t diplomacy a waste of money? Nukes are waaaay more efficient!

  16. Myrtle Beach recs

    Man, I love all of the awesome travel destinations on here.

    How about suggestions for Myrtle Beach, SC? I need to be in North Myrtle Beach (not sure that is an area or a separate town), over a long weekend soon (so not in the summer when lots of people will be there; not sure if early May is off-season and things will be shut down though). Will bring school-aged children and husband will supervise while I am in meetings. Will have a car. Not golfers (but clients are).

    Hotel (some of which seem to be condos or condotels) recs?
    Good restaurants?
    Anything not to miss?

      • Anonymous

        Oh, and definitely check with someone local (maybe a hotel?) about the weekend you are planning to go — it could be a biker weekend or college beach week, which is pretty raucous.

        • Anna

          Yes, definitely check this. Most of May is Bike “Week” which is definitely not my preferred way to to visit Myrtle Beach, though it may not bother you. Definitely not off season, though. Agree that Brookgreen Gardens are lovely.

    • SC recommendation

      Vereen Memorial Historical Gardens (technically in Little River, SC, but the same county as North Myrtle) is supposed to be lovely and have some nice hikes/walks.

  17. HPV vaccine

    I plan to have my daughters get this when they are old enough. I’ve had several certical cancer scares / bad pap smears and have a friend who had a hysterectomy in her early 20s and can’t have children as a result.

    From talking to the parents of teen boys, they seem not to be getting this for their sons. Why, why would you not?

    Parents of boys, do you give them the vaccine, too? If not, why not?

    • Anonymous

      My sons aren’t old enough but I will 100% have them get it when the time comes. It’s a no-brainer to me, just like all other recommended vaccines. Even though they can’t get cervical cancer, there’s no reason not to protect them from the risk of HPV or prevent them from contributing to its spread.

    • Anon

      Yes both my son and daughter got them on schedule. It was a little harder to explain to my son why he needed the shots (“gross. I’m not going to have s3x with anyone!”) but I told him that someday he would be in a relationship with someone he loved very much, and how would he feel if he gave her cancer. I don’t think he fully bought it but he went along with the shots no problem.

      • Godzilla

        This is just really cute. Thanks for sharing the story about your son, it put a smile on my face.

    • Anonymous

      My teen boy was vaccinated for HPV. I don’t want him carrying the virus to his partners.

      • Anonymous BigLaw Associate

        Ditto. My teen and tween boys have been vaccinated. My other two boys will be vaccinated when they are old enough.

    • mascot

      My son isn’t old enough for the vaccine yet, but when he is, he will be getting it. This was a no-brainer for us. Perhaps parents don’t realize the significance of carrier status or the fact that males can get HPV related cancer too.

    • Anonymous

      Yes. I have high-risk strains of HPV and I didn’t get them by myself. If getting my boys vaccinated saves some women from dealing with the cervical cancer scares I’ve had, that’s reason enough for me.

    • JayJay

      I have young boys. I absolutely plan on having them get the vaccine. I haven’t seen anything compelling as to why I wouldn’t.

    • Mary

      100%. Don’t know who you’re talking to but they are out of touch. Head and neck cancer is up in young males and it’s linked.

      • Anon for this

        I’m on the board of a community health center with a teen clinic. She’s right. The girls are getting the vaccine. The boys are not. It is equally recommended for both but parents of boys don’t see as much of a risk. It is covered by Medicaid so it is not a $$ issue.

    • anon

      I’m a biologist, and my sons will both get them at the recommend age. For their benefit, and to fulfill our collective duty to society.

    • Gail the Goldfish

      I would also add that in addition to cervical cancer, HPV also causes certain types of head and neck cancers, and these occur more frequently in men. I do not have and do not plan to have kids, but I will happily tell anyone who mentions HPV vaccines about HPV risks for various cancers (not a scientist, but it comes up in my work and I find viral causes of cancer fascinating)

    • AnonMidwest

      My friend is a pediatric hospitalist with 3 boys, they’re all getting the vaccine.

    • HPV vaccine

      Thanks everyone!

      I am not in an antivax part of the country and these folks aren’t otherwise anti-vaccine, so I was beyond totally surprised at this. It’s an awkward convo to have, re other people’s children’s s*x lives.

      But people just assume (rightly) that parents of girls are (rightly) petrified about this and not the boy parents. And other than that boys can’t actually get pregnant, I don’t see their risks as being that different (reputation, feelings, catching something, unwanted pregnancy, naked selfies, non-consensual relationship, etc.).

      • Anon

        People are really f&*% up about girls/women and s3x. Every consequence of a woman having s3x is automatically her fault, as if she had no partner in the act.

        “Got pregnant? Shouldn’t have opened your legs, I don’t want to pay for your abortion.”

        “Have a kid out of wedlock? That’s what you get for being a sl*t. I don’t want to pay for your food stamps.”

        I’m afraid this attitude that boys have no responsibility to prevent the spread of HPV falls along the same lines.

        • HPV vaccine

          Right.

          If I had had sons, it would be the same talk as for the girls. They may get someone pregnant (in which case, how cool would it be for them to not go to college b/c they have to work to support the baby? or have their weekend with the baby be harshing their game?). They may catch a disease they are embarassed to talk about. Or be allergic to latex and find that out the hard way. Or just be crushed emotionally. Or take a regretable selfie. Or have a maniuplative relationship. Not being able to gestate a baby is a small part of all that.

          • Anon

            I told my son (who is still convinced he will never have s3x) “Look, mom is pro-choice. If a girl gets pregnant, she has a choice as to whether she gets an abortion or has a baby, and that’s her right. But you, my friend, have no choice. Every time you have s3x, you are deciding that you may be a father. You really need to think about this when and if you have s3x.”

          • Ace

            At the risk of sounding like a weirdo, I’m totally saving this for a (very far away) conversation with my little dude (in 8+ years). Such a great description.

    • Anon

      My son is only 1, but will absolutely be getting the vaccine when he is old enough because I have several strains of HPV and have also had numerous pap smear scares. No way will my child be contributing to that problem.

      • Seventh Sister

        My boy is almost 6 and I feel the same way. I think some of this is deep denial by parents who can’t imagine their kids ever getting busy.

    • anon99

      My boys both got it. I can’t imagine not having them get a vaccine that prevents cancer.

      I was a bit annoyed, actually, that I was the one who had to bring it up with their doctor.

    • Anonymous

      My son will when he’s old enough. But I’m an epidemiologist who does vaccine research, so not exactly representative of the general population.

      The reasons why people don’t are generally in these categories:
      (1) Generally anti-vaccine.
      (2) Concerned that vaccinating their tween for “an STI” will cause them to be more sexually active, initiate sexual activity sooner, or be less likely to use protection or be cautious about safe sex.
      (3) THEIR DOCTOR NEVER BROUGHT IT UP. This is the most common. Or it wasn’t clearly communicated why they should do it. It can also prevent penile cancer, not just cervical cancer. There’s an effort to improve this, so hopefully rates will change going forward.
      (4) Their son hasn’t seen a doctor during the target age range.

    • Lobbyist

      Got vaccine for my 11 year old girl and 13 year old boy. Why not? Reduce risk to them. Reduce risk to future partner. For me it was an easy choice.

      • Lobbyist

        Pediatrician said to kids: When I am done, this is what you can say to me: Thank you for this life saving vaccine that will prevent me from getting one type of cancer.

  18. Sandal Searcher

    Yesterday I saw a woman wearing slip-on flat sandals in rose gold — not a flip-flop style, more of a d’orsay flat with a peep toe and woven-leather look. I wanted to ask her where she got them but didn’t get the chance, and my internet sleuthing skills have come up with nothing so far. Anyone seen anything like this online or in stores???

  19. J Crew Regent Blazer

    Is this the new Schoolboy? I haven’t tried it on but I need to spend some JC credit card rewards before Sunday.

    • Cat

      Sort of – I don’t think the collar lays flat very well, though. As someone with an average length neck, it wanted to stay grazing my chin…

      If you’re wanting to spend $25 as a result of the March promo, be aware that you can’t use it online in combination with any other promo code, INCLUDING the promo code that gives you 30-40% off. Best to drop by a store where you can stack the rewards card on top of the promotion.

      • KateMiddletown

        Ugh, annoying but good call. Thanks! I like the lady peplum that’s on final sale, too, but I’d better try it on first.

    • Anonymous

      I think it’s supposed to be, but I definitely liked the Schoolboy better.

      • KateMiddletown

        I liked the old schoolboy more than the new – this might just be the new one re-named to make it more marketable.

  20. Anon

    I posted I think last week about the ABraThatFits reddit subgroup.

    I ordered a bunch of bras in various sizes – i had a hard time getting good measurements because my tissue is very soft – and I have to tell you, wow what a difference it makes to wear a well fitting bra. I was wearing 40DDD because that’s what Nordstrom said, and do you know why they said it? Because it’s the largest size they carry in many brands. My best fitting bras after learning what I’m supposed to look for are 38G and 38GG, UK sizes, which is something like an I or J cup US size.

    I know people on here often say “go to Nordstrom for a fitting” whenever anyone has a bra question, but in hindsight, that didn’t work out so well for me.

    The difference in how I look and feel in clothing has been astounding. Obviously at at 38/40 band I am not a slight little thing, but I appear so much thinner having the ladies lifted and separated and clearly differentiated from the rest of my torso.

    • Anon

      I should add, I’ve had the best luck with Freya and Panache. Elomi is supposed to fit my size best, but they have not been the best fitting bras for me by far.

      • MargaretO

        I’m a 36/8F (usually, depends on brand) and Freya fits me incredibly well.

      • KateMiddletown

        I’m a 32F-FF and I am another Freya fan. My nordstrom lady measured me correctly, though. (I used to work at VS in college so I knew for a fact I wasn’t a DDD)

    • LAnon

      One other brand I’d suggest for sizing not typically found in stores (I’m a 32G) is Prima Donna. You can get them on Amazon, sometimes for a really great bargain if you find lucky sizes / colors. They go from a 30 band up to 46, in cup sizes from C to H.

      • Jules

        Thanks for the rec! And I’m the 36GG who replied to the OP a couple of weeks ago and can second the rec for Panache.

      • OP

        Before my ABTF experience I had a couple of Prima Donnas. They are great bras, very well made, super comfortable. I just want to point out that their cup sizing is EU and not UK so you have to adjust.

        I haven’t found a Prima Donna yet that has a gore that tacks on me. I am thinking they are not projected enough for me, even when I go up to a cup size that is ridiculously large and floppy on top, still no tacking.

        Fortunately, I did find a REALLY comfortable Freya for like $26 on amazon!

    • Tech Comm Geek

      Nordstrom’s bra ladies can vary widely. If you still aren’t comfortable, go back and explain what isn’t working. If you get blown off, work with someone else. Our local Nordstroms has two I recommend specifically because they listen and work to find the correct fit.

      • Anon

        Thanks. There probably are better fitters, but if they measure me correctly as a 38G/GG UK they probably won’t have my size anyway!

    • Ariadne

      Late to the discussion, but freya bras fit me well too. I’ve also heard great things about ewa melachek, a polish brand that has a closer set gore, and has a freya like shape but even better! Someone had a custom made one from Poland, and reviewed the experience on the blog hourglassy.

  21. Anonymous

    Anyone else use the D Minder app to track their vitamin D – have you found it accurate? Got the app after my D numbers came back super low – to kind of keep track and kind of keep me motivated to keep taking it. I like the app – that you can put in your daily dosage and ESP that it tells you how many IUs of D you’re making in the sun in your location right now – and then uses that to estimate your current D. Just wondering if others found the estimate to be close next time they were tested.

  22. Kelsey

    It might be cultural, as our family is composed of immigrant parents and uncles, aunts, etc. that still live on a different continent, but how do you deflect questions on how much things cost? I’ve had aunts and uncles (and parents and inlaws) ask me how much I make, how much of a bonus I received, how much our house was, how much people in my profession typically make, etc. They just don’t consider it rude, and if I asked “why do you want to know?” they would simply ask that they are curious or respond that their other relative is interested in moving into our area and wants to know what a nice house costs, etc. They just don’t take a hint, and “none of your business” is not a way to talk to your elders in our culture. Any suggestions?

    • Anonymous

      I’m Indian and in my subculture such nosiness is common re money bc ppl size up each other’s net worth. I get what you’re saying – the typical American responses don’t work. I simply don’t answer – I literally won’t say a word and shrug or I’ll say – I don’t know. They clearly get that you won’t answer – bc of course they know you know your salary. Do this consistently enough and the questions come at a slower pace or may stop. BUT give away info once and then they’ll feel it’s their right to know forever – I mean if you told your bonus last yr, what’s the big deal this yr – is it higher or lower; did you not get one etc.

      • Anonymous

        Adding on – sometimes I also say “enough” in response to how much is salary, bonus etc.

        • Kelsey

          Oh, I like that response. I hate being evasive/nonresponsive but I’d rather nip it in the bud as you mentioned rather than being subject to more of the same type of questions. Plus, I can see that anything I say will fly through the community and be the source of gossip (so and so lives in a $X house) and I’d rather not be the subject of gossip.

          • Anonymous

            What? No. There is nothing objectively wrong with the questions as they are culture-specific. Do not andwer if you do not want to. But “enough” is an unambiguously rude answer regardless of your culture.

          • Anonymous

            I’m 12:22 -same in my culture. EVERYTHING you say esp re money is remembered and repeated for life. Best to have one word answers bc we can’t get away w shaming our elders with “oh why do you ask” or “that’s awfully personal” or “I’m not discussing it.”

      • Anonymous

        I’m not the OP, but I have a follow-on question if you don’t mind–my husband is Indian and his parents, in addition to asking the income stuff (which I was prepared for) also ask what I weigh. That one threw me and I had a really hard time not being offended. Is that cultural or perhaps just them? (I apologize for my ignorance–my husband is interested in keeping the peace between his parents and I and he kind of sidestepped the question.)

        • anonymous

          I’m Indian, and while my nuclear family has really removed itself from all the cultural things, my extended family has not. I’ve never been asked how much I weigh, but weight is a constant subject of conversation. I’ve always been thin, but my cousin has always been really overweight. This triggers a lot of commentary to her about why I’m thin (she goes to the gym every day! she eats healthy!) and don’t you want to be thin like her? You’ll never find a husband if you don’t lose some weight! It’s awful. On the rare occasions my weight has fluctuated, I also get a “you look like you’ve gained weight.”

          I’m generally offended by both of these types of comments. I don’t really care that it’s “cultural.”I’d guess it’s both cultural and they also may be a little nosier than normal. I agree with people above that it’s sort of a slippery slope- you start sharing anything at all, and then more and more things become expected. i think that’s another difference between my cousin and me- she wants people’s approval and will answer questions and engage in discussion, so family is WAY more inclined to do it with her than with me. I pretty much just don’t answer the question (change the subject, leave the room, answer a different question) and they don’t really ask me much anymore.

      • Anonymous

        I’m not the OP, but I have a follow-on question if you don’t mind–my husband is Indian and his parents, in addition to asking the income stuff (which I was prepared for) also ask what my weight is. That one threw me and I had a really hard time not being offended. Is that cultural or perhaps just them? (I apologize for my ignorance–my husband is interested in keeping the peace between his parents and I and he kind of sidestepped the question.)

      • Anonymous

        I’m not the OP, but I have a follow-on question if you don’t mind–my husband is Indian and his parents, in addition to asking the income stuff (which I was prepared for) also ask what I weigh. That one threw me. Is that cultural or perhaps just them? (I apologize for my ign0rance–my husband is interested in keeping the peace between his parents and I and he kind of side-stepped the question.)

        • Anonymous

          That’s cultural – ‘girls’ are supposed to be as thin as possible and fair skinned. Make no mistake about it – there is judgment involved in that question. Oh and you’re supposed to be thin but if you’re too thin, you hear about that too.

          I’ve been at parties were Indian “aunties” who are middle aged FAT women will openly say to a younger 20-ish-30ish woman — you have gained SOOO much weight. If that woman says something like – oh but I just had a baby 2 months ago (not that she has to defend it but some do bc it’s an “elder” asking), they’ll be rude enough to say — well that’s no excuse; you need to join a gym; when I had my babies 20 yrs ago I gained no more than 10 pounds. Meanwhile they are FAT cows themselves who have no right to be pointing fingers.

          • MargaretO

            Damn I’m not Indian but this is so familiar. My grandmother has never been thin and then she’s surprised that all of her female descendants share the same natural body shape as hers….I think the berating about weight is more about her own body wish fulfillment (because of course the western concept of individuals being separate from their families just does not apply) than it is about anything else. I just walk away, told her she needed to stop talking about it, and change the subject and now….she just talks about her own diets incessantly. In her late 80s, as if she will finally be thin someday. It is so nuts.

          • Anonymous

            Oof. I suspected as much. I really appreciate your reply. When I went to India, I did notice that people kept pointedly making references to “overweight Americans” in front of me–I’m not overweight, not that this makes it any less appropriate–and I also noticed that they were often people who had no business slinging arrows in that department. This might be where my t0lerance meets its limit–I’m not going to indulge people with answers to personal questions just because they feel like asking.

          • OP

            I’m pretty much white but this happens in my family too. My Grandmother, the other kind of Indian (native american – ha) + German, used to make ALL KINDS of comments about all of her granddaughters’ weight and she was a heifer! We all look exactly like her, body-wise, too. Thanks Gram!

        • South Asian

          LOL do not answer this question. Make a joke and let it die down. Something about your weight in gold.

        • ha ha

          Just a counter to someone else’s comment, I’m South Indian and the traditional norms of beauty are definitely NOT being stick thin (look at all of the South Indian movies where the heroine is hippy and curvaceous and probably around a size 8 — definitely not a skinny minny like in Bollywood movies). When I would get asked about my weight from my elders, it was usually followed by a remark that I was too skinny and needed to gain some weight and fill out. I used to feel very self conscious about my weight for this reason.

          • South Indian too

            Yes exactly. I’m South Indian too. I’m also 5′ 10″ which is very tall for South India, and barely a size 4 which is TOO skinny for them. So, most of the first conversation with elders or relatives are either about my height or weight. I have the answers down pat – my height? “oh, I take after my dad, what I can do”. My weight? “I don’t get to eat your delicious cooking auntie, what can I do?”

          • ha ha

            “I don’t get to eat your delicious cooking auntie, what can I do?”

            That’s a great response. :)

    • Anonymous

      You have already answered your own question, OP. Not answering their questions will be considered rude no matter how exactly you try to avoid them. You only have two options: answer or be considered rude.

    • Two Cents

      Yes, it’s very cultural. I’m Indian too and my MIL used to always ask thesequestions — how much do I earn, how much do we pay in rent, how much do we have in savings… One day my sister she gave me a check for my birthday and MIL asked me how much she gave me and I was so p*ssed, I said something like — you shouldn’t be asking questions like that! She immediately apologized and backed off a bit since. So maybe sometimes being very direct is the way to go.

      • Anonymous

        I’m Indian too – it all drives me nuts but esp the gift thing as they are gauging the givers net worth and how close their relationship is to you via $.

    • Never too many shoes...

      I am Greek and get a lot of this. Although I tell my mother everything as I know she is asking as it makes her feel good to know I am doing well rather than for competitive reasons.

      • anonymous

        Another Greek here and agreed. Family has a right to know everything! (lol.) It is mostly well meaning but can definitely veer into nosy and rude. Like “shoes” I share everything with my immediate family but have more distant cousins and relatives ask how much our house is worth, how much my engagement ring cost and how big it was, when we are having babies (how many times have you tried?), how much I weigh, how much my husband makes, etc. A lot of it is well meaning and sometimes it is for helpful information gathering (i.e. her son wants to be a lawyer, how much money do they make?) but mostly it’s just a lack of boundaries. I also tend to nip it in the bud with things like “I don’t know, I threw out the scale at the apartment and haven’t bought a new one. Do you want some shrimp?” or “you know, my fiance wanted to keep it a secret, so I don’t know how big my engagement ring is. Are you having Easter this year?”

        I will say that Greek ladies have PhDs in G00gling. I told my mom I was excited to meet with my boss’s boss for coffee once and by that night, she had looked him up, found where he lived, how much he paid for it, where his kids went to school, local articles about him and could recite his resume to me. It doesn’t even register how creepy this is but I will say this skill makes her fantastic at connecting people and she is a master networker.

    • No Problem

      Can you just explain that in the US, questions about money are considered taboo? I realize this may be a lot easier said than done, but it might help them to understand that they are asking you to break a cultural taboo if you answer their questions.

      • Anonymous

        Problem is that the people who ask (at least amongst Indians) KNOW THAT – they have lived in the US since the 70s and they realize it isn’t done here. But in an Indian party, they use their culture and elder flags to try to get the info they want.

    • MargaretO

      I just answer. It’s not culturally taboo to them, they aren’t being rude (just nosy) and they are really nosy about everything so…..I just do it. It’s easier than fighting it. They also ask about my sex life and my bowel movements and the way I train my dog and everything else under the sun, I pick my battles, money seems pretty innocuous in the face of more intrusive questions. I consider these friendly interrogations the price of admission to my family who are by and large awesome, if not low maintenance.

        • MargaretO

          Even worse – any time I’m dating someone new my mom asks me if the sex is “good”. She once tried to then segue into talking about her early sex life with my dad. Nope!!!! My family all talks to each other through the bathroom door. This stuff is why the money questions do not really bother me.

    • EM84

      So happy this is considered inapropriate and rude in most of EU cultures :) Even my closest family has no idea what my salary or rent is. Not that it would be a secret, but they simply can live their lives without this information.
      I got these questions often while travelling or living in other cultures and I answered that this is private information which I choose not to share. Nobody died.

      • Anonymous

        Little bit different when you say that to strangers you’ll never see again – after you leave your vacation or move back to the U.S. – vs. saying it to your aunt who will then proclaim to all forever that you are too “American” and you’ve lost the “cultural values” – when really she only wants to know bc she wants to gloat about the fact that her son who is 20 yrs older than you makes more money and has a lower mortgage even though he lives in Dallas and you live in Manhattan.

    • S

      I am Indian and just want to chime in and say that it is considered super-rude in my family to ask about money or weight. I have (in my 20s) gotten some “You’re too thin! You must not eat enough! What do you make for dinner? Do you skip meals?” but that is as far as it went.
      #Not all Indian families – I know this is only anecdata but in my sub-culture (South Indian middle class family) those topics are not discussed and are considered rude.

  23. Garnet Hill Cashmere

    Thinking about getting the GH cashmere wrap for my SIL for her 50th. How is the quality?

  24. Help Me Spend Money

    I have $350 to spend from a recent birthday. It’s way too easy to fold it into the general accounts and use it for bills, kids’ clothes, etc… but I really would like to spend it on myself, and DH definitely encourages it. He doesn’t understand why this is hard for me. WWYD?
    -I have an upcoming massage scheduled, and for schedule reasons I really don’t think more spa time is called for
    -same thing for shopping… I know I need some work clothes, but the thought of taking a day off (or using precious weekend time) to shop is just ugh. I do not enjoy clothes shopping as a rule.
    -I could buy myself some hobby supplies, but I’ve simultaneously been on a craft-store-spending-diet. Also, see above: time.
    -I don’t need any tech right now.

    Thoughts? Ideas? Something that I’m not thinking of? I clearly have a very difficult time consuming resources for my own benefit. I will add with zero snark that DH would be very proud of me for finding a good, semi-frivolous use for this money.

    • Anonymous

      A nice evening out – a concert and/or really nice dinner? Uber it so plenty of champagne!

      • MargaretO

        In this general direction – do you have a hotel with a fancy pool near you? I’ve gotten day passes to fancy hotel pools a couple of times and it was always amazing. Get drinks by the pool, eat some yummy food, shut off your cell phone for the day.

    • Anonymous

      I guess it technically falls into the “tech” category, but I just bought my first fitness band (a Fitbit Charge 2) with some birthday money and I love it. It’s been a really great addition to my life, with its heart rate tracking and reminders to stand and move even though I have a desk job. Hopping on this bandwagon a little late, but this thing is definitely terrific.

    • Frozen Peach

      I love scents and skincare and new reading material. When I’m spending fun money on me it’s either books, perfume/cologne, skin stuff, or magazines. A few subscriptions to guilty pleasure mags will be a gift that keeps on giving! My guilty pleasures are People and Real Simple (the magazine to make you feel simultaneously inferior and on top of your shizzzz). We also subscribe to The Sun and I love it and read cover to cover every month.

    • Anonshmanon

      An art class (or dancing class with the hubby) plus weekly babysitter.

    • anon a mouse

      I know you say you don’t enjoy shopping, but would that change if you made an appointment at a place like Nordstrom that does personal shopping appointments?

      It sounds like your time is your most valuable commodity. Are there tasks that you would like to outsource so that you could use your time for your hobbies instead? I’m thinking along the lines of hiring a chef to cook your family’s dinners for a few days, or using hiring a babysitter and enrolling in an all-day crafting workshop of your choosing?

      Failing that: semiprecious sparkly earrings that you would otherwise not buy for yourself.

      Or something fun and luxe for your home that will make you smile. Weekly flower deliveries for a month? Or that Georg Jensen pitcher that someone posted on the “little luxuries” thread yesterday? (Darn you, I want it!)

  25. Anon

    I have my fist phone interview. I have a bit of social anxiety and meeting new people is hard. Wish me luck!

    • anon

      good luck! unasked for advice – I always try smiling when talking on the phone – I truly believe it makes me sound happier and friendlier

      • Minnie Beebe

        This totally works! Make sure you’re dressed professionally, sit at a clutter-free table or desk, have a glass of water nearby. Basically, treat it as you would an in-person interview. Smile, speak with a friendly tone, don’t interrupt– body language is conveyed over the phone, somehow.

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