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Wednesday’s Workwear Report: Silk Ruffle-Collar Sleeveless Blouse

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A woman wearing a dark blue short silk ruffle sleeve blouse

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I’ve now been in the workforce long enough that the styles I wore early in my career are starting to come back around again, and I’m not mad about it. This ruffle-collar sleeveless blouse from Brooks Brothers looks like something I owned and loved as a junior associate. (I believe it met its demise after a salad dressing spill at a summer lunch.)

Pair this with some comfy trousers and a sweater blazer and you have a perfect summer Friday outfit.

The top is $125, marked down from $248, at Brooks Brothers (extra 20% off at checkout!) and comes in sizes 0–16. 

There don't seem to be any really great plus-size dupes out there, but check out these linen-blend tops from Crown & Ivy, available in several solids and prints ($20–$35).

Sales of note for 2/7/25:

  • Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
  • Ann Taylor – Extra 25% off your $175+ purchase — and $30 of full-price pants and denim
  • Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 15% off
  • Boden – 15% off new season styles
  • Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
  • J.Crew – Extra 50% off all sale styles
  • J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything including new arrivals + extra 20% off $125+
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – 40% off one item + free shipping on $150+

290 Comments

  1. What skirt shape and fabric is current now?
    I’m not a fan of tiered skirts or the satin-look maxi. Also prefer no linen due to the wrinkled look. Biz casual/formal office. Looking to wear a solid color skirt with tucked in tops – shells, buttoned collared silk sleeveless tops, and short sleeve sweaters. Will bring a blazer but not wear it. My above knee pencil/straight suit skirts look extremely outdated.

    2. It sounds like you’re not going to find work skirts at the moment, since you don’t like the list you’ve given. But you could try a midi-length straight skirt and see if that works.

      1. Neither of those styles is work appropriate in anything but a retail/arts scenario, anyway.

    3. What about midi accordion pleated ones in solid non-linen? I have none from Athleta of all places.

      1. Yeah, I’ve got 2 of these and wear them all the time. But I’m an academic, so can be pretty artsy.

    4. I think the answer to this is midi length skirts. I agree that you’re limiting yourself on “current” looks by not considering satin or linen-looking. Banana Republic has some nice linen-blend midi pencil skirts that I think look current, and at least on the model don’t seem to be extremely wrinkly but I’m sure that’s very ymmv.

      Biz casual/formal office seems like an oxymoron so I’m sure they’re much, much too casual for you – but I do think it’s wild how longer jean skirts and full maxi skirts are trendy right now. My eyes still twitch a bit at the look but it’s also very fun for it to round back around. My 15 year old mormon girl past self would be delighted.

      1. I think the long jean skirts look so . . . . weird! And some of them have these high front slits. I do not know how people sit.

        1. Long jean skirts are very evangelical Christian IMO. I don’t understand the current trend at all!

          3. A hilarious influencer I follow calls them “church skirts.” I see them and think Quiverfull.

          4. Yep, can’t do it. Also, I wore a jean skirt to my bridal shower in 2003. I cringe so hard when I see the pictures. Why didn’t I find a cute dress or something?

          5. Awww, I’m sorry to hear that you cringe! It’s okay to dress with trends. I hope you felt beautiful and happy and surrounded by love on that day.

    5. For tucking in I think you want something like a skater skirt, but longer. Something like these in two lengths (Amazon because I don’t see much of this style in searching the regular mall brands):

      https://www.amazon.com/Simple-Stretch-Flared-Length-Charcoal/dp/B0CXT46KCG?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A25WG79FRH30WW&th=1&psc=1

      https://www.amazon.com/Danis-Choice-Elastic-Flared-Charcoal/dp/B014QK0GBW?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=A25WG79FRH30WW

    6. TBH I think for the office the only current skirts are the pleated midi or full length ones, or the floaty linen ones. If that’s not your style I would stay away from skirts right now, since I agree the classic pencil skirt is outdated unless your industry/city lean extremely conservative (skirt suits are still fine in court IMO, but no one thinks you look current and that’s not the goal). Do you have any pants you like?

    8. Based on the parameters you provide, I think you need to choose between a skirt in a fabric and silhouette that you like and what is currently in style. It is totally fine to wear what you prefer and skip what you don’t, but sometimes the tradeoff is that your look is not an active fashion trend.

      1. Your last one – when I was poking around earlier before I posted, I noticed the midi length trench skirts. I’m very intrigued by them. I think there was one on Ann Taylor or BR that was pretty cool but sold out in all sizes.

    10. In terms of skirt length, it seems like midi-length is very trendy / current. That said, I tend to like at-or-just-below-the-knee because it’s more flattering to my legs. Midi-length sort of cuts off my calves and looks dowdy on my legs. It’s sort of like the small-print floral dresses – some people look very cute, I look like I just left a religious compound in the desert.

    11. Long slightly a-line skirts in linen or other lightweight materials (even parachute like materials) seem to be “in” for warmer weather. But that’s not…very office-friendly. I do think a funky, off-beat pleated skirt of some kind (like different materials patched together maybe?) could be a possible direction. Finally, I have seen stiffer/thicker chino material maxi pencil skirts (if that makes sense) and I think these look divine with the right styling.

    1. A quick G00gle search for the terms “judge” and “prickly” reveal dozens of articles in the last few years describing both male and female judges as “prickly”… the desperate hunt for s*x-based outrage around here is exhausting. Grow up.

    3. Female judge here. There’s certainly a double standard: I’m constantly working to be (and be perceived as) authoritative and to run my courtroom efficiently, while not being called a bit**c behind my back. But prickly is a word I’d think of as used plenty with male judges.

    5. IDK, sometimes the adjective fits. I describe both men and women as prickly. It’s a kinder way of saying what I’d really like to say.

    6. Agree. More often used with women—like shrill, ditsy, abrasive, frumpy, high-maintenance, pushy, headstrong, hysterical.

      I think sometimes you hear things so often that you don’t realize how frequently women are described in emotional terms versus men. (My Google search is showing mostly women when it’s paired with an individual and both when it’s a reference to the position FWIW)

      1. “aggressive” was used as a negative on one of my female friend’s performance reviews. It was used as a positive on one of our male coworkers’. (He showed it to us when we were talking about it in front of him.)

    7. I think we can criticize Aileen Cannon for her treasonous attempts to deny accountability in managing national secrets without referring to her as prickly.

  3. How do you convince a parent that they need hearing aids? We have to repeat things two or three times for my mom, but she gets angry whenever we bring up the topic of hearing aids.

    1. In my experience…you can’t. It took my dad like 20 years to accept that he was losing his hearing.

    2. My family tried sending articles but how hearing loss is associated with dementia but that didn’t work either – “that doesn’t apply to me.” Commiseration.

      1. One’s own family is often the least effective messenger (even though they observe issues first hand). My grandma finally believed it when a newspaper piece pointed out that if you think all TV presenters these days mumble, you should get your hearing checked by a doctor.

        1. Hear hear! (pun intended)
          This is so true for so many the ngs with the elderly (and often for people of all ages)

        2. Good point. Sometimes it is helpful if one of their peers suggests it, or has a good experience after getting hearing aids themselves.

    3. Statistically, approximately everyone needs hearing aids eventually. And they’re so much better than they used to be! My friend didn’t love needing them, but once he had them, he used them to listen to podcasts and music over Bluetooth and was thrilled. Maybe she needs to hear from someone who likes theirs?

      I wonder, are her doctors not noticing the issue, or is she shutting them down too?

    4. It is really really hard to convince people on hearing aids, or other devices that bring aging or health into the conversation. In a different situation, I had a parent who needed something to help prevent falls; I went and did a video of the equipment at the store and showed it to her and she was more accepting when she realized that it was way more modern and sleek and non-intrusive then the models she was aware of from 20 years ago. could that work on hearing aid? They are so much smaller, and they even bluetooth in to cell phones now.

    5. My dad only succumbed to hearing aids, despite having been deaf in one ear for what seems like my entire life and forcing others to accommodate that acknowledged issue the whole time, when the DMV refused to give him a license without proof he had them. I don’t know if that is a typical requirement, but it is one they imposed after an incident that landed him in custody of the state police when he got turned around and couldn’t find his way home. Yes, the issues are many . . .

    6. I found convincing my mom to get hearing aids much more difficult than convincing my husband. I told my husband, “You can’t hear our young kids if they call for one of us at night. This is a basic responsibility of being a parent, and you can’t meet it. Make the appointment today.” He did, reluctantly, but is THRILLED with them now. (I, too, am thrilled.)

      Convincing my mother was much harder and took much longer, and she never did fully adopt them. She…also was in the midst of dementia when she died suddenly of a heart attack two years ago. So….. no actual advice. Just solidarity.

      1. I told my husband as gently as I could that I thought he needed to get his hearing checked because the TV was getting louder and louder. He told me it was only my perception, because I work from home and have grown accustomed to working in a dead quiet space. Ummm, ok. I plan to try again soon. He’s due for some standard medical testing and I am going to try to throw this in. Maybe see if you can get your mom to have her hearing tested along with her annual checkup? If she sees the hearing loss in black and white, might this have an effect?

        1. If you’ve got an Apple Watch you can get a decibel reading and go in with hard facts.

        2. I knew my hearing was subpaar but what finally enabled me AND MY HUSBAND to get hearing aids was was going together to be tested!

      2. So does your husband wear his hearing aids at night, too, so he can hear your kids? In my head, people remove hearing aids to sleep at night, but I realize I have no basis for this.

        1. Ha, no. Not to sleep. But he DOES wear them in the evening after the kids go to sleep and in the early morning when he’s up working and they’re still sleeping. I figure it’s better than nothing…

    7. My Dad loves Costco. There is a hearing center in Costco. They do free hearing tests. They even have Kirkland brand hearing aids that are great quality and (while all hearing aids are pricey) at a very good price with great customer service for adjustments that’s free. The convenience helps, if they are near a Costco. So he was happier to consider hearing aids because I could schedule a quick visit for a hearing test while we were there to do shopping.

      When my Dad read the evidence that correlates increased dementia and depression with hearing loss, he finally caved. It also helped that his primary care doctor suggested a hearing test as part of his yearly physical / assessment. It amazes me that doctors don’t routinely suggest this as we get older. But that is probably because many insurance plans (Medicare….) do not pay for hearing aids. Which is ridiculous.

      So you can offer to pay for them if money is an issue.
      You can whisper/message their doctor to bring it up at the next visit, as a routine thing.

      Honestly, the hearing aids are so sleek/cute now I thought they were little ear buds at first.

      1. Yeah, I am convinced that Gen X and millennials and Genzie will have far less trouble adopting to hearing aids since so many of us walk around with AirPods in our ears. I commiserate though. Every time I hang out with my mom in particular, it’s very frustrating because she refuses to wear the hearing aids she has for some reason she won’t explain.

        1. It is possible her hearing aids aren’t comfortable or the setting aren’t quite right. It can actually take several visits with the tech to get them feeling good. So it’s one of those things (like CPAP…) that many folks give up on because they don’t have someone to help them make the adjustments.

          Sounds like your Mom needs a visit with the audiologist or wherever she got her hearing aids.

        2. That makes me nervous since I cannot wear AirPods at all! (Or anything else in my ear; it just hurts)

          1. Well, that is not typical. Do you have some sort of autoimmune disease like relapsing polychondritis or erythromelalgia that affects your ears? Maybe you should mention to your doc.

          2. I’m the same, it’s not a disease, just differently shaped ears. My partner was trying to help me with some Loop earplugs (also don’t fit me) and he finally saw and understood why AirPods and the like don’t work for me.

          3. AirPods are the absolute worst of all earbuds in terms of fit because they are huge and round and do not come with eartips in different sizes. OP’s being unable to wear AirPods does not mean that there is something wrong with her ears or that she will be unable to wear hearing aids.

          4. I have three autoimmune diseases and counting… so thanks for letting me know it can be something worth mentioning to a doc just in case.

    8. I’m sorry your mom is fighting this. My kid has hearing loss and got her first hearing aid at 4 months. They’re great! I think they also inspired my FIL to get them – he loves them!

      I agree with what others have mentioned about dementia – hearing aids are the best thing you can do to stave off dementia if you have hearing loss. The science is really astounding. Hearing aids are so tiny now, and have great features – streaming, tv connection, etc.

      But, if you need other ideas, you can test drive air pod hearing aids – google for how to set these up. The next level up are the new over the counter hearing aids are also very inexpensive and an easy way to start, if a full audiologist work up is intimidating (and prescription hearing aids are frequently not covered by insurance and can be pricey). Finally, many of your parents’ favorite celebrities wear hearing devices (especially most older musicians) – it’s really not different from wearing glasses. Good luck!

      1. Yes, the new technology is fantastic. You have an App on your phone and can adjust many things with it. You can have your phone calls go right into your hearing aids. At some of the theaters my parents went to to see concerts and plays, they can send the performance straight to the hearing aids (“loop” technology). Just great.

    9. What helped with my mom is that one of her friends told her about her own hearing aids. Plus it gave my mom an excuse to buy an Apple Watch.

    10. Not all hearing loss is treatable with hearing aids. Mine isn’t.

      Start with trying to urge an appointment with an audiologist or to have your parent ask their regular doc about it.

      But beyond that, it’s their decision and at some point, you back off.

      1. +1 to your last sentence, although this place tries to treat the elderly like they’re incompetent children.

        1. It’s hard to see people you love descend into silence and loneliness and irritability because they won’t make a simple change. That’s really challenging!

          1. But they are adults. You may not like their choices, but they are allowed to make those choices on their own.

            Stop infantilizing elders, y’all!

          2. Frankly, it’s also super annoying to repeat everything you say 47 times. It makes communication next to impossible and visits very difficult. There are so many things that aging brings that we can’t help – but, for so many, hearing loss CAN be remedied by hearing aids. I’d rather have saved my patience for the former and not have to spend it on the latter.

          3. It’s bad to infantilize elders, but I think it can help to take stock of how issues with the world people grew up in can make aging harder than it has to be. Civil rights for the disabled came to the USA in what, 1990? I remember people treating visible disability aids in Target advertisements as some kind of big deal only ten years ago. It’s their choice, but if they’re feeling a ton of societal pressure not to be someone who needs aids, it’s not really a choice that they’re making on their own.

    11. So much commiseration. My dad needs them badly but cannot be convinced they’re necessary, even after a trip to see the audiologist. Sigh.

    12. Can she afford them? That was one of the reasons it was hard to convince my dad. It’s dumb that they’re not covered by Medicare.

      1. fyi the FDA approved OTC hearing aides a few years ago – no audiologist needed and lots of good ones on the market at $100-$300. And check for return periods – lots allow you to really use them and still return; I could imagine “hey, want to order these from Amazon and just see if they help – send them back if they don’t” feeling a lot more approachable

    13. A thought: my kids might think I am losing my hearing because they repeat things. I don’t need them to repeat. I had a head injury from an auto accident which has affected my processing speed. Give me a minute and it will become comprehensible, but there is a brief time gap. My kids know this, but it is difficult for them to remember in the rush of a conversation that I “hear” them but need a brief pause to understand what is being said. It’s just a second or two, but that is just not how conversations happen. Interestingly enough, I do much better in a business context, but I am usually the person running the meeting.

      1. I think this is a “your kids” issue. My husband ignores or is slow to respond to a lot of what I say and I am quite aware that it’s a listening/processing/attention problem, not a hearing problem. It is obviously different from his dad’s genuine hearing loss.

    14. I think a peer has to convince them with personal testimony about the cool features.

  4. Planning my visit to the UK that’s not just London. I will still be spending 2-4 days in London but have about 7-10 days to go to other places. I’m seeing way too many exciting recommendations online so would love your personal anecdotes on the best cities, restaurants and unique hotels. Just me and spouse in September

    1. Cambridge was absolutely lovely. I only spent a day and half there, could have done 2-3 though.

    2. The Lake District is absolutely gorgeous, and you can do it just on the train if you’re a bit strategic.

    3. Having lived in the UK for 2 years, my favorite trip was to the Cotswolds. It’s everyone’s dream of charming English villages, and there’s lots of Michelin starred/ recommended pubs. It’s located between Oxford and Bath, which are both great day trips and well worth visiting.

      Other trips I recommend:
      – Dover – to walk the White Cliffs (day trip from London)
      – Lake District – I’m not into hiking, but it almost made me want to hike
      – York – really well preserved Medival city, very easy to get around

    4. I have a soft spot for the 1995 BBC version of Pride and Prejudice, and a visit to Lyme Park (Pemberley) is still a favorite part of our England trip almost a decade ago.

    5. Just a day trip, but if you are any form of math/computing/WWII nerd, stop at Bletchley Park (WWII codebreaking site). It’s a neat stop, probably a few hours. Reachable by train from London or you could drive there in the morning and then continue on to Oxford or Cambridge in the afternoon if you are headed to either of those.

    6. The city of Bath is WONDERFUL! Like the dreamiest, cosiest, and easily walkable place. Lots to do but a small town feel! Especially recommend if you like Bridgerton (they have Bridgerton tours where you can see filming sites) and/or Jane Austen (they have an Austen museum). And don’t miss the Roman Baths! Ugh this makes me want to go back to Bath.

    7. My detailed comment is in m-d for some reason, but definitely see the quaint city of Bath!!

    8. I came to the US from the UK because I married an American with a hard-to-move job but visit the UK frequently. All the suggestions are excellent. I would add the Yorkshire Dales and Northumbria, and at least a day in one of the components of the United Kingdom (not just England).

  5. Has anyone seen the Ashley Madison documentary on Netflix? Just started watching it this Sunday and wow, crazy stuff!!

    1. The “christian” vlogger guy bugged the living crap out of me. He is everything wrong with the evangelical movement.

    2. i’ll have to add that to my list — if you want crazy, do check out the documentaries on “twin flames” (netflix?) and “mother earth” (max/hulu)

  6. Could we do a “what you wished you would have known, care taking tips, etc” for elder care from people who have already gone through it? Someone posted yesterday about dealing with someone with dementia and I’m in the same phase of life. So let’s assume that POAs have already been created. What do you wish you would have known about the process? Anything you would do differently? Or in the words of SA is one of those “the only way out is through” stages of life?

    1. First, get that power of attorney form signed. A lot of people put it off but it’s actually incredibly easy once you get the person’s agreement. Literally do not wait a single extra day once you get that agreement.

      Second, we have found an elder social worker an extremely helpful resource, far better than a simple home visitor. It’s expensive, but she does so much for a relative with dementia like shopping, checking on her cat’s food levels, and so much more. Look for a licensed clinical social worker.

      Third, if you’re dealing with a dementia situation, do not waste as much time as we did trying to logic the person into decision-making. Their brains literally don’t function that way anymore and you should stop wasting your time and making yourself frustrated. Look up communication strategies from Teepa Snow and similar. Practice redirection and being incredibly serene when you’re incredibly frustrated. Make decisions behind their backs – it’s sometimes what’s best.

      Fourth, if you can afford it, do assisted living communities instead of caring at home for someone with dementia. I have come to firmly believe that the specific demands of this condition require the additional supports and more staff people that you find in a community. Managing home visitors is extremely time-consuming and it’s still not as safe.

      1. Oh, and get a Truelink card to manage their finances. Someone here recommended that and it’s been a godsend. We’ve blocked like 15 totally inappropriate purchases in a month.

    2. This is not directed to OP, whose relative has a dementia diagnosis, but I do want to caution that the recommendation for a basically unlimited POA and adding people to the parents’ bank accounts gets thrown around here a lot as a preventative. And that is great as long as the adult child is a good person who is financially and personally stable. But all it takes is an unpaid child support or tax obligation, a hidden drug or alcohol problem, an adverse judgment or a thief and it can place the elderly relative in an impossible situation when their bank accounts are suddenly drained. And that is without even taking into account fights between the adult children when the ones who did not have access to the funds suddenly accuse the one who did of theft. So do exercise a bit of caution.

      I realize this sounds paranoid but I have been an attorney for a long time and I have seen all of these scenarios. And I have a friend whose druggie brother is suing her right now and basically forcing her to explain what she did with every penny she took out of their mother’s accounts over the past five years.

      1. Thanks for saying that. I’m under pressure from a sibling to just take over parental finances and take a checkbook but she keeps forgetting that I can only do that if asked or permitted to. Being a first backup under a springing POA does not let me act! Also, I can’t hack into their medical records. Laws still apply!

    3. A great tip that I got here for when you don’t know what to do other than just sit with the person – read Anne of Green Gables (and all of its sequels) aloud. It’s engaging and soothing.

        1. The complete novels of LMM is $2.99 on Kindle if you finish them (and full of underappreciated gems!).

    4. While your parents are younger and healthy, is the time to just sit and talk with them about how they see their retirement years. Where do they want to live? What is important to them? What do they expect from you? Just open ended questions. And you need to talk with your siblings about what they are willing to do/help with, as things change.

      Like are your parents planning to age in place in the family home until they leave on a stretcher vs. moving to an accessible home/condo vs. independent/assisted living/CCRC if maintaining a house (and stairs…) becomes onerous, to whether they want to move to an isolated lake side resort vs. closer to family/healthcare as they age etc… Just see what they say.

      Talk to them about what end of life was like for their parents. Sometimes that allows introspection about how they want something different.

      As medical problems develop, I found online support groups often more helpful for day to day issues than any of the doctors could provide. It was very difficult hiring daily help for my parents that could be trusted. People unfortunately will not show up, give bad care, steal from your parents and/or put pressure on them to do things they don’t want to do…. just….. ugh. In home care is extremely expensive. Hiring a professional can be wonderful to help in big questions (Elder Care lawyer, social worker), but thinking you can hire someone to reliably manage all of your ill parents medications/doctor’s appointments/ home management if they are frail or vulnerable is not realistic and affordable for many.

      But maybe you’ll be lucky and your parent will be healthy and independent and die in their sleep in the family home in their 80s. That would have been my greatest fantasy…. I was totally unprepared when my previously healthy parents had serious problems happen literally overnight in their 60’s. You never know. So it is never too early to start asking questions.

      1. I had The Talk with my parents about what their plan was, and they went away and talked about it and came back and said “our plan is to be carried out of here feet first.” Only problem was, when they were carried out of there feet first, they were still alive and in no shape to go back and live there independently. And they had no contingency plan.

        What I wish I had said is, “You need to understand that if you refuse to make a plan for when/if you are unable to live independently, you are consenting to whatever plan I come up with in the heat of the moment, and I can pretty much guarantee you won’t like it as much as a plan you make for yourselves.” At the very least, if we’d had that kind of frank talk it would have relieved a lot of the guilt I felt when I had to make all those decisions in the emergency and in the absence of a plan.

        1. Well said…. well said.

          The stress of managing these times of life is unbelievable.

    5. If your relative is in a skilled nursing facility, consider hiring a sitter to come in a few nights a week. Even in generally well-staffed facilities, the staff is often very lean at night. This person doesn’t need to be a nurse themselves. They’re there to advocate for your loved one if they need something during the night. Your relative will also get better care if the staff knows that someone is going to be there checking up on things at least a few times a week. The sitter can also alert you if something is going on that needs your attention ASAP. We paid the same hourly rate we would have paid for a babysitter ($20/hr) in a low-cost area. We found the folks via word of mouth.

      1. I’m just wondering . . . how does all this work with the nanny tax? In my area, trying to find care for my children was hard for a PT caregiver because no one wanted to be paid on the books, even grossing up so they got what they felt they needed to have as take-home pay. This is for people who were legal to work here.

        IDK how it goes with eldercare, but I fear being in the same boat. I wish I weren’t a stickler for this, but it’s job-related for me.

        2. You can also hire via an agency, which is more expensive but they deal with the taxes. The good thing is that they in theory the employees were pre-screened, and they will send a replacement person if your usual caregiver can’t come. But we still had trouble with this scenario and had caregivers that didn’t show and no replacement came, and caregivers with troubled pasts (fired for hitting a patient), and a caregiver that asked to borrow my father’s credit card……

          1. It seems like the agencies have a lot of trouble with untrustworthy staff (theft of medication comes up an awful lot, but so does the thing where they “borrow” the credit card).

        3. Also with paid help:

          If you are the employer (which I guess you are), and they are hurt on the job (say they slip and fall or get hurt helping to lift an elderly parent), are you on the hook for that? How does workers comp work for things like this (and I guess they could sue you also)?

          Sibling went out and is paying cash to a lot of people to clean / mow at mom’s house. Everyone has to be paid cash or via Venmo and I guess sibling is thinking mom will do that going forward. I guess it’s mom’s problem, but I wish that these people came from an agency at least or someone has thought through the worst-case scenarios of how you should handle. I doubt that people do what is ideal, but it’s just how the struggle bus goes. This is in a small town where a lot of the economy is, ahem, informal.

          1. This is a good question for one’s insurance agent.

            In my state, it is a criminal offense for an employer (regardless of whether it is a formal employer or one pays under the table) to fail to carry workers’ comp. Many homeowners’ policies in my area include some workers’ comp for incidental/temporary employees (like a date night babysitter). For more ongoing employees, one can buy additional workers’ comp through the homeowners’ insurance provider.

      2. Also, when you chose a skilled facility, get EVERYTHING they tell you in writing. When a family member was placed into assisted living, we were told dietary accommodations were standard. (No hard food due to teeth and no seafood, per his preference.) Another family member found them serving him kettle cooked chips and being very rude about providing an alternative. (FWIW, they used providing an alternative for an reason as a selling point of their “dining program”). You also need to check on them all the time or pay someone to do so. Aids lied about giving a bath, changing clothing, etc (I.e, claimed to have given him a bath 10 minutes before family arrived, but shower wasn’t wet.etc.) This was at a well regarded, self-pay only $$$ facility too.

        1. Yes, sadly this is common. The more disabled your family member is and the greater their needs, the harder it is to get good care. Neglect is everywhere. And the facilities are just understaffed, with lots of turnover of staff. And it is so so expensive.

    6. I would have found an Eldercare attorney sooner. We found one through the assisted living place my mom got transferred to when her insurance stopped covering skilled nursing (90 days after hospitalization.)

      The eldercare attorneys were so helpful in so many ways. The big thing was that my mom saw herself going back to her (heavily mortgaged) home “someday” and the attorney helped her put it into an irrevocable trust. She never did go back home but it was important to her that it was there waiting for her when she got better. (Which she didn’t)

    7. For me, an elder care consultant was an absolute angel. Both as my eyes (I lived far away) and to advise on which organizations/people provided the services that best aligned with my dad’s needs and wants. An expert in these services who had experience with all the local providers was well, well worth the money. I advise bringing one in as early as possible.

    8. In my experience (sample size of three), dementia sometimes amplifies people’s least attractive personality traits. Books and videos will often tell you to take the improv “Yes, and” approach, but you can’t “Yes, and” when the person is yelling at you, threatening to call the police, calling their spouse a bit*h, and accusing her of having an affair.

      You are not a failure if you can’t “Yes, and.” The books and videos that tell you to focus on making cherished and loving memories are well-meaning, I guess, but seem impractical bordering on delusional when you’re dealing with people who exhibit paranoia, anger, and extreme anxiety. Try not to feel guilty if you don’t have those Hallmark moments. Tune out the people who tell you it’s a privilege and an honor – I’m guessing they never had to involuntarily commit a parent.

      Find someone you can vent to, who will remind you that you’re a good person, even when you can’t “Yes, and.” Who will remind you that what you’re doing is so hard, and that you’re doing a great job and that your person with dementia is lucky to have you. Take care of yourself and your other relationships as much as you can – it helps to remember that you’re more than just your parent’s home health aide.

    9. Learn to embrace the little things and find joy in them, like your grandmother’s delight whenever anyone told her the results of the 2020 election every day for six months, or my favorite – the random stuff she’d pack to “run away” from her nursing home. Kidding aside, my advice is to get real about finding additional care (day care, assisted living, nursing home) as early as possible. So much of the benefit is the added social interaction with people that allows them to hold on to their faculties longer than sitting at home by themselves.

      1. I worked with someone whose father had advanced Parkinson’s. She told me how one time her dad thought his bed was his old car and he invited her to hop in next to him and they chatted on the way back. home like the good ol’ days. If I ever get dementia, I hope my mind will give me a few good times like that.

    10. As I said above, my parents refused to make a plan so it all ended up on me when things fell apart. If I had it to do over again I’d have worried far less about making sure they were happy with the arrangements (which they were never going to be), and just concentrated on getting things done and informing them about what was going to happen. I wasted far too much time trying to make them happy, which was a losing proposition from Day One. Ugh. And that included trying to convince them to do things (join activities, etc) they didn’t want to do — they were reasonably competent and I should have just left them to sit in front of the TV in peace.

      1. This is excellent advice. At a certain point, you just have to do what needs to be done regardless of protests or previously stated preferences. My SIL insisted, and her siblings went along with, keeping my MIL in her home far longer than was practical or safe because “that’s what Mom would have wanted.” It turned out that once SIL was finally persuaded to agree to a memory care facility, MIL was much happier and more engaged than she had been at home for years. Monitoring the facility was much easier for SIL (the local child) than managing the rotating cast of caregivers and providing hands-on care herself had been, and she was able to enjoy visits with her mom in a way she couldn’t when MIL was at home. At home MIL had just been existing; in the memory care facility, she was living to the fullest extent of her capacity.

  7. I have another question related to the aging parents theme. It seems a lot of us are dealing. I don’t think my mom is suffering from dementia. She’s just really, really gullible and always has been and she’s very chatty, including with strangers. She’s not dumb; she just thinks the best of everyone. It’s endearing in many ways.

    She has been almost swindled when her computer was infected and she called “Apple” as instructed to “fix” her computer. She had a long conversation with the fake Apple. Luckily, when they asked for her bank account number, she had the presence of mind to stop and call her bank and ask if she should give it. I was telling her she should never have called “Apple” at all – why did she even make the call and have the conversation? I have told her about known tricks like buying gift cards, requiring “bond” for missing jury duty, bailing out a grandchild in jail. A good friend of hers was stopped from buying gift cards by an alert Target employee. Does anyone have any other tips to help her perceive an attempted fraud? I have not asked for account access and I think she would be highly insulted if I did.

    1. Honestly, I would keep trying on that account access thing. That’s the only way we were able to get on top of sketchy situations for my aunt with dementia – think paying “one-time fees” for services that were actually sneaky, sketchy subscriptions, attempting to buy items from inappropriate places (e.g., buying Ensure bottles from some rando on eBay), responding to spam emails. We first got in under the guise of “IT support,” which she agreed to. An elder care counselor available through my husband’s EAPP told us not to feel guilty about working to protect her best interests.

    2. Not exactly what you asked, but she could put a freeze on each of her credit reports in case she does become the victim of identity theft. This would at least prevent someone from using her identity to open credit card accounts, take out loans, etc. If she is not planning to take out a loan or open a new account, it would not inconvenience her at all.
      AARP has an online workshop: https://fintech.aarpfoundation.org/virtual-workshop-how-to-detect-a-scam/

    3. I am responsible for overseeing short, ongoing cybersecurity training for my firm’s employees. I wish I could make my family members participate but since I cannot I often summarize the info for my family members when we chat. For my more gullible loved ones, if I present it as something of a gossipy TIL tidbit they are far more likely to engage and take it in.

    4. This is hard…. You just have to keep talking about it. I mean, some of these scams are getting good. I even got taken by one, I am embarrassed to say, and it is SO easy to accidently click on something that opens a can of worms.

      I agree with putting a freeze on their credit. And putting double verification on everything.

      1. Honestly, everyone should put a freeze on their credit. Pretty much everyone has had their information stolen by now, so everyone is vulnerable. I just keep mine frozen, unfreeze it when applying for credit, and then freeze again, it’s easy.

        2. yes! the last time i needed to unfreeze it i was really grateful that it gave me the option to just do a temporary freeze.

      2. Agree. It’s a hard situation. My very smart 36-year-old sister was taken in by one recently, so it’s not just about being naive and gullible anymore.

    5. My grandma has the same personality and has already fallen for one scam. We’ve realized that she has terrible judgment with these things, so we’ve asked her to follow bright line rules. “Don’t call a number that’s sent to you—call us.” “Don’t give anyone your bank or cc info. Call us.” “Don’t answer the door unless you are expecting someone or know them. Call us.” For that one, we also got her a doorbell cam. We get false alarms, but we’ve also avoided problems. Also, the most important thing is to never be critical if she makes a mistake so she isn’t embarrassed to call us the next time.

      1. Key to last sentence. My mom has fallen for scammers twice and it’s so hard not to come at her guns blazing

      2. My rule for myself, and my husband and kids now agree (learned lessons for them): assume everything is fake. If you have any question that something might be real, contact the company through the number on your credit card, financial statement, or by logging in to your account.

      3. Make sure she knows that her bank, utility company, the government, or any reputable company will never call or text or email her then ask for confidential information. Always hang up, find the phone number from an existing statement or the company’s official website, and call that number. The one time my bank did reach out to me to confirm a large transfer, the rep immediately said I was welcome to hang up and dial the phone number on the back of my credit card.

    6. Some of this is probably just personality not age. My 38 year old husband gave our credit card info to a fake Comcast a few weeks ago. He’s brilliant and definitely does not have dementia but has always lacked street smarts.

      1. My husband found a great deal on a guitar he’s wanted for a long time & bought it instantly. He thought he was buying it from an independent music store across the country from us. He didn’t get a confirmation email, which was strange. Then he thought maybe it didn’t go through. He then, finally, figured it was too good to be true & was relieved it “didn’t go through.”

        He also didn’t tell me that he had done that.

        It in fact went through, and then I got a call from the real credit card company with a fraud alert. I didn’t recognize the transaction – and it was also not the name of a music store, which might have clued me in – so we went down the wrong road for a long time with the credit card company because they had it flagged as unauthorized use of the card.

        Then they saw the authorization had come from our IP address and that it wasn’t unauthorized. So then a whole case had to be started over a fraudulent merchant. It was a long, long process several months, and very very frustrating because none of the people at the credit card company could keep it straight from unauthorized charges (and they also didn’t listen when we said it was fraud of a different variety.) So the claim kept getting denied and the charges reinstated.

        Lesson: if it seems too good to be true, it is.

      2. Scammers are getting more sophisticated. My husband bought fake concert tickets on Craigslist once. Yes, Craigslist! He is a smart man who has discernment but still fell for it. I still wonder what he was thinking to this day.

        Another thing to watch out for is older folks who know how to use a smartphone spending hundreds, if not thousands, on in app game purchases. I’ve seen this all too often in my former line of work. Publisher’s Clearing House still exists too and can cause issues.

    7. My church has a monthly program for seniors. One of the presenters was someone from law enforcement speaking about common scams targeting seniors (and everyone, really). Maybe if your local library or community center has a similar class she could attend that might be helpful?

  8. Tax question – I am in CA if it matters. If a person is never going to reach the $13.6 million lifetime gift tax limit, is there a reason to avoid gifting over $18k/year? My mom’s tax guy keeps suggesting ways for her to break up a gift so that she stays below the $18k limit, but is there any downside to gifting over $18k? She definitely will never get to the lifetime limit. I know you have to report gifts over $18k to the IRS, but is that it?

    1. No

      With the caveat that the estate tax law could change, but that seems very unlikely to change dramatically in the nearish future, so unless she’s very wealthy, my answer is still no.

      1. +1

        But don’t you have to start filing the gift tax form if you give more? At least that was what I was doing for my parents before they passed. And that form is a real pain the butt….

        1. Yeah, I thought the real reason for most people to stay under the limit was to avoid having to file.

          1. Yes, those forms were not fun. If you pay someone already to do your taxes then maybe its not a big deal.

    2. This is such a pet peeve of mine. People love to talk about how you can’t gift more than 18k a year without understanding what gift tax is or the lifetime limits.

      1. +1 pet peeve of mine too. I hate how misunderstood the estate tax is (it applies only to a tiny, tiny fraction of estates!) and how little the general population understands about the wild benefits to heirs of fairly rich decedents, like the stepped up basis of assets.

    3. Is there a possibility she’ll reach the lowered limit (est ~6.8M) when it sunsets in 2025?

      1. No. This is why I’m so confused! There’s such a huge gap between $18k and $13 million, or even $6 million.

  9. My brother and I are caught in a weird dynamic with our mother and don’t know how to break out of it. We both live on the opposite coast from her but call her nearly daily to check on her and socialize. Nine times out of ten she directs the conversation to a ranting complaint that is easily remedied but she refuses to fix. For example, her favorite homewares store near her house closed two years ago. She now spends two-plus hours driving back and forth to a different location to buy her favorite candles and complains about the drive, the traffic, etc. We’ve pointed out that she can order the candles online to deliver to her house and have even sent her the candles that way. But she still goes through this exercise and complains. As another example, her neighborhood has recently had issues with electrical outages, which leaves her unable to cook. We’ve pointed out that we could order her food delivery (and she could do it herself) and suggested that she stock up on shelf-stable foods. She declines all options and instead sends us dramatic texts with pictures of her eating old food she finds in her pantry. We both have told her that we don’t enjoy these topics with her and either re-route or end the conversation when she starts down the same paths. But she persists, and it’s getting to the point that we’re talking to her much less than we used to. We feel bad because we know that she’s bored and lonely.

    1. I hate to say it but not being willing or able to switch plans was a sign in my grandmother that she was slipping mentally.

      1. +1. I’m sorry, but my relative with dementia had very similar fixations and world views. Are you also noticing memory loss? Agitation? Difficulty completing multi-step processes?

    2. Honestly, I think old retired people just like to have something to do and something to complain about.

      1. Yup. My mom and MIL can both be this way. My mom, especially, has never been the most flexible person, but being out of the workforce has only exacerbated that personality trait. It is annoying but ultimately pretty harmless.

      2. +1. OP, it sounds like it has become your mom’s hobby to complain and do stuff like drive 2 hours to that store. If she adopted your reasonable suggestions to fix the issue, then she’d have nothing to do.

      3. yep. We have this problem with my MIL. She doesn’t want a solution, she wants someone to listen to her complaining. We cut it off and change the topic or suddenly a neighbor’s dropping by and have to run! if she persists.

        Also, though, we only talk to our parents 1-2x a week. Daily is a lot. Does she text? A quick hi or photo might be easier than a call?

    3. My mom is 89, and she’s like this too. She repeats herself often, but she’s not experiencing dementia, her doctors say that this is normal at her age.

      She complains about the same things repetitively — she doesn’t like long hair, her assisted living is too quiet on Sunday, there’s a new Chick-fil-A opening near her, there’s too many empty rooms in her assisted living and so on. Thankfully, she occasionally interrupts the complaining to criticize!

      We handle it with a mix of responses — offer solutions we know she doesn’t want, tell her not to make remarks about people, try to change the subject to the olden days. I don’t think there is a good answer, I try to remind myself she LIKES to complain and do a lot of “uh-huhs” during our calls.

    4. Thanks all. For more background, our mother is 65. She isn’t forgetful and doesn’t repeat stories. But her ability or willingness to think critically has declined over the past decade. Notably, she retired 10 years ago. For example, we used to discuss books and current events with her. She doesn’t engage on those topics anymore and prefers to discuss surface level issues, which is fine and we happily go along with her. She admittedly doesn’t have a lot going on in her life and I know that makes it difficult for her to contribute to conversations. But she ignores our questions and changes the topic to her complaints. When she complains, it feels like she wants us to express sympathy for her or praise her for overcoming adversity. Like she wants to be a victim or a hero.

      1. My mom is doing a lot of this at the same age. I don’t really think it’s an aging thing so much as a generation and phase of life thing for her.

      2. Have you tried asking her for advice about little stuff to re-direct the conversation? It can be a simple cooking question or something like that. Give her something to make her feel useful and that she can provide something of value to you. (But, to your mom’s gripe about the house wears store closing, she probably just wants to go and touch all the things and make small talk with the sales people. She’s known she can order the candles online for years, it was never about the candles.) Big picture, I’d look in the local area and see if there are any activities she could get involved in.

        1. To be fair, I know I can order delivery and I’d still be cranky and want to complain about it if my power was going out regularly!

  10. I have this blouse in stripe. Definitely a splurgy statement piece. Trying to keep it nice for a few seasons! Fit is slightly big/boxy so to me it looks best with a topper.

    1. Ma’am, this is a Wendy’s?

      But seriously, you might get a response if you ask your question as though there are real people and not bots responding.

      1. Ha I had the same thought. But honestly any Marriott or Hilton is likely to be fine – just choose what fits your budget and preferred location.

  12. What summer outfit are you most looking forward to wearing? It’s dark and rainy where I am today so I’m dreaming…

    2. A couple of linen dresses. All the linen, really. I have a closet full of summer clothes from years in subtropical climates and recently moved to where it’s still in the 30s at night.

    3. Short little dresses. I love a cute slightly skimpy outfit. I’m in NYC and every time I think my outfit is a little skimpy I head out the door and feel like a grandma compared to all the 20 somethings lol.

    4. During the summer months, I wear lots of white. I mean bright, true white, not off-white or cream or ecru. My accessories are the only place with any color; I like straw and rattan for bags and shoes, and cool silver, pearls, and stones in blue/purple/green. I love the freshness of white on a hot day. That’s why I wear it, but I get tons of compliments.

      1. i want to be you! i have a pair of white jeans from last year that i failed to return in time, trying to work up the courage to wear them. i find that white jeans are too hot when it’s actually warm outside but linen and lighter fabrics are too see-through.

      2. Funny, I’m so committed to blue that my daughter calls me Blueberry. I wear pretty much all shades of blue together, though I am more careful about blues that lean green or blues that lean violet.

    5. I want to get one of those BEAUTIFUL caftans that I saw last summer. Someone on this site posted a link to a company I have already forgotten that had incredible caftans for a little pricier than I wanted to spend (?$300) and I still dream about it.

      1. emerson frye? philomena or something? i wish i could do caftans but i just keep thinking mrs. roper…

  13. Can anyone speak to transitioning from a legal to a strictly compliance role? I feel like compliance is where my interest lies now, in many respects I would gladly relinquish my “lawyer” title, and I definitely need to change jobs, but I worry about losing the ability to do legal research and interpretation in my job to ensure I am doing good work. Is this just a situation where I would need to give up control to someone else? Would I be able to to refer issues I think need examination to counsel? Or should I be looking at in house lawyer roles because the transition is too much?

    1. My switch was slightly different- labor law to in house labor relations but also includes hr compliance. You do have to hand over control of some areas and I frankly don’t have time to do my own research if it’s anything extensive. At my giant org, our compliance department absolutely has its own in house counsel team as well (and outside) so there is someone to run trickier situations by. I’ve been very happy with the switch as it means I can focus all day on the aspects of law that I really enjoyed, namely advising and strategy. The loss of prestige was pretty hard for me to deal with emotionally for the first few years.

    2. I work in compliance with a side of legal. Your ability to outsource legal work depends on the size of your firm and the scope of the compliance program. The mindset of maintaining control by doing it all yourself and not consulting with others introduces risk and is rather antithetical to the whole goal of a compliance role, though, so you might want to carefully consider what exactly you are hoping to find in another job.

      1. I hear what you are saying. I am thinking about inside of a large bank. I’ve won some cases on pretty nuanced interpretations of statutes and regs and feel like I might have a hard time not raising those issues.

        1. To the extent they are relevant you should raise issues like that. However, you would also need to understand the business enough to determine how relevant they are, whether there are more pressing issues to address and how to go about doing so, and make sure you view your role more holistically than just as the canary in the coal mine for niche topics. In my experience, understanding the interpersonal dynamics within your workplace and being able to navigate them well is foundational to succeeding in a compliance role.

          Not that you planned to do this, but going in as a new face and immediately raising a ruckus about your pet focus areas without taking a minute to settle in and learn would not bode well in the long run.

    3. compliance seems like a tedious area to me – if everything is running smoothly and you don’t get any wrist slaps or fines, it’s not like you get a parade. But something is found noncompliant and you’re in a mess of finger pointing. Also no one really wants to hear from you as it’s not a department known for practical solutions as opposed to explaining the rules. I find legal to have a better “reputation” in the company where I’ve worked.

  14. I have a case of Pure Protein vanilla-flavored shakes that no one in the household likes. Any suggestions for what we can blend it with to make it more tasty?

      1. This works well. I add a ripe banana, vanilla, cardamom etc.. and blend it all. They also freeze great so I keep in the freezer for a quick snack. Easy to heat up.

    4. I bought that pea protein powder that someone recommended on here the other day. Yesterday I made my first smoothie with it, along with frozen mango, some fresh strawberries I had, and plain yogurt (not Greek.) The protein powder has a really artificial vanilla flavor that made my nice fruit taste like Wacky Wafers. It was … not enjoyable. Not sure what to do with the rest of this $32 jar of protein powder!

      Following for suggestions!

    8. I know someone who mixes it with pistachio powdered pudding mix. Gross, but they love it.

    9. PB2 is a powdered peanut butter which also has a chocolate peanut butter version. Add a spoonful to the vanilla shake.

  15. Follow-up on the discussion yesterday about jobs for teens. Those of you who grew up very wealthy / privileged – how did your parents help you stay grounded / grateful / not a spoiled brat?

    1. I don’t think you can make a kid who they are, at least at a certain point. My parents didn’t give me more than a nominal amount of $. I was so motivated for independence, financial and otherwise. I worked from the moment someone would pay me. I’m not super motivated by $, but more for the independence it represents (one kid of mine works to have spending $ and spends every cent; the other never spends $ but is still a worker). My sibling, just a few years younger, completely different. I can’t explain it, other than if you look at the Unibomber and his brother, kids can just be widly different, even from the same house.

      I do believe that you can over-give to a kid and warp their perception of reality. Eventually, they will be with people not from their bubble, but some kids really put their foot in their mouths and their parents may actually own some of that. Think: private schools, no real way to interact meaningfully with people not from their exact background, travel as education is to just bubble areas elsewhere, no job or volunteering, no good educational discussions in the home (do kids know about joining the Army or community college or skilled trades even if they never pursue that?)

      IMO, how can you be a CEO without understanding hourly workers?. It should start young for these people born on third base. They may be in a good position to change the world for the better, but they have to get out in it first.

      1. I so completely agree that parents only have so much control over personality! There are things you can teach a child, particularly if you start young (please, thank you, etc.). But a lot of personality is innate and it is easy to overestimate parental influence.

        My mother is one of four. She and sibling #3 both graduated from college and lived stable, upper middle class lives. Siblings #2 and #4 either did not finish or barely finished high school and, while they were both lovely people, neither was financially or personally stable. It was not anything to do with my grandparents’ lives while they were growing up because it was every other child. It was not gender (one girl and one boy on each side of the divide).

    2. I missed the discussion yesterday but I grew up well-off and went to a pricy private school. I was the only one of my friends who had to get summer jobs once I turned 16. My mom would not accept me staying at home bumming around all summer. I hated it at the time, but now I think everyone should have a crappy McJob (food service, retail, whatever) at least once. It also meant I was socializing with people different from me and not in my private school bubble.

      My parents paid for my college tuition, but they put me on a really strict budget and I had to work part-time as well. I have friends who went from private school -> undergrad -> grad school -> career without ever having to struggle or work a “regular” job and it shows!

      1. Similar — I worked summer jobs along side adults who had these jobs as their jobs, to live off of for them and their families. I have poor relatives and poor-from-divorce relatives and this still was eye-opening.

        College was limited to state schools, but it was paid for and I worked for spending $. I had the use of an aging car and was expected to drive for household needs (driving younger sibling, going to the store or helping when a car needed to go to the shop).

        1. Yes – working with people who worked retail because they had to put food on the table was so eye opening when I was a teen!

      2. We are paying our daughter’s college tuition because we can’t stomach the idea of her limiting her future with student loans the way we did, but we are requiring her to earn her own spending money.

      3. I hire paralegals regularly, and we almost exclusively hire people who are just graduating college. The ones who had worked retail/food service for more than a few week and the ones who did not is enormous. It’s to the point where I have voted no hire on almost everyone who does not have this experience (though I do not ding resumes for this lack– many students are told to leave it off).

    3. I was very privileged. A few things that I’ve been really grateful for and that I’ve kept up with my own kids:

      1. At age 16 (which was when you could work in my state) we had to get a full-time summer job, every summer.
      2. We had to do our own taxes. I have memories of going to the library to get my 1099 form and filling it out at the kitchen table, first in pencil, then in pen.
      3. Chores, without allowance. The idea was that you pitched in to do the work of the home you lived in.
      4. If there was a big-ticket item, then we sat down with the parents and figured out the budget and how we were going to get there. That often included my parents “matching” my contributions, so it was privileged, too.

        1. I did my own taxes once I got a real W-2 (vs babysitting) and that alone was eye-opening. Who is FICA? Why am I paying her? I also did my own taxes (state and federal), which is totally do-able as a high schooler filing a 1040-EZ. Every person should at least try. My deal with myself was that I could spend my state refund on anything I wanted but had to save the federal one for a rainy day (eventually funded a college Beach Week trip).

      3. +1 Doing their own taxes is a great idea. Usually for a teen it is super simple, but gives you a foundation of basic knowledge about how to file, what “doing taxes” includes, how to read a tax form, what tax brackets are, etc. Even if you use software or an accountant later on, you should still review the full form before signing it, and it’s very helpful to know the ins and outs of the EZ form first. I honestly can’t believe parents do this for their kids, or toss it off to/pay their accountants to do it.

        1. Although now that I type this I remember having a good friend whose parents had investments in her name and other complicated things so their accountant did her taxes…but that is also doing your kid a disservice. Sit down and have them do it with you, and if you have shady things you want to hide then let that be a wake-up call.

        2. I never had an accountant until I had a K-1 with foreign taxes on it. A person with a BA is generally able to do a domestic single-state K-1 and also the schedules. It’s not hard math if you are just in the US. BUT doing it shows you a lot of important things on how the system works (especially the marriage penalty, which we may get again when the Trump era tax cuts go away).

          1. I’ve done my own taxes for a long time but they’re pretty simple and I don’t feel like doing them gives me any understanding of the details of how taxes are calculated.

          2. Doing your own taxes by hand is a lot more instructive than using tax software and in some cases is actually less confusing. When I was in college I had 1099s and did my own taxes by hand. Now I use software but it’s so poorly designed I wouldn’t trust my teenager with it (she will do 1040 EZ by hand), and this year I caught an error in the software (it used the wrong due date for one quarter’s estimated taxes). The one time we paid an accountant to do our taxes I had to explain to him how part-year state returns worked and it was more work to compile the paperwork and send it to him than it would have been just to do the job myself.

      4. Oh yeah, I was always expected to help with house cleaning and never got an allowance.

    4. My parents for mine and my siblings college and part of grad school. My sibling is still in grad school and my parents their rent. They paid for part of my rent in grad school, and gave me a downpayment towards my apartment.

      I didn’t work like a fast food job in high school – my parents wanted me to study. I tutored a lot because I wanted my own money. In college I mainly either tutored or had internships.

      We may have had money, but my parents also had high expectations for us. While they gave us a lot, we were basically guided to do well enough that we could have the same quality of life as an adult as we did growing up. At least when I was young they weren’t anywhere near this rich. They would not have bought us expensive toys or clothes just because “that doesn’t make sense”, even if we could have afforded it. I couldn’t have stayed home after college at any point unless I was doing something productive, like studying for the bar or interning in the nearby city etc.

      I don’t have a concrete explanation. I feel very well-prepared for life, and truly that I can achieve whatever I want to achieve (within reason etc).

      I get the point of needing to understand other groups. We didn’t grow up extremely wealthy, probably upper middle class. I can see that the people who grew up in a nearby-but-much-wealthier towns are the annoying people described here. I think going to public school helped a lot. My parents also just would not have stood for us acting like spoiled brats as kids.

    5. My family runs the gamut from receiving government assistance to having a net worth of millions. My own daughter was raised upper middle class in a very upper class neighborhood (we live on one of the less expensive streets and the cheapest house is still $1 million). And from the perspective of someone who has seen young people grow up at all income levels – the idea that rich kids are entitled brats who will not make anything of themselves or learn to work is the current iteration of “kids these days”. My family has several teens and young adults who think they should get the latest and greatest sneakers out of their parents’ disability checks and who refuse to get a real job. My daughter’s friends are (with one exception and there are mental health issues there) hard working and responsible young adults who just finished school and either working full time or in grad school. Which is to say you will find every iteration of personality at every income level.

      Teach limits. Teach self-control and delayed gratification. Teach them to compare themselves to those less fortunate rather than the more fortunate (and if you live in the USA in the 21st Century you do not have to look hard to find someone less fortunate). Model service and socially and fiscally responsibility. Those are lessons for any young person regardless of their family income.

    6. I remember the clubs in school doing LOTS of public service: feeding the homeless, highway trash pickup, revitalizing public parks, etc. It was sort of in the air at school that you would be involved in the community and helping others. I know I sound very “uphill in the snow both ways,” but with how self-centered society is these days (and the shift to every child being in competitive sports that take up every second of time), I worry kids don’t get enough exposure to their greater communities.

      1. I’m an administrator in a wealthy district, and while I’m glad many of our students participate in volunteering, a lot of students seem to have an attitude of feeling like they’re soooooo great for helping the poor and fail to see the students they’re tutoring (for example) are peers and fellow human beings. I hate that the poor are used as an object lesson in How Good You Have It and fodder for college application letters.

        1. This is why I prefer projects where people of all backgrounds work together side by side in pursuit of a shared goal, rather than the privileged people “serving” the less privileged. Everyone needs to be on equal footing.

        2. This, a billion times. “Being charitable” in this way does the opposite of what many parents think it does.

    7. I grew up pretty priviliged, I think. I went to a private high school and while my parent’s weren’t billionaires or anything they had sucessful careers, we vacationed abroad, I rode horses, etc.
      A few things my parents did well:
      – I went to my neighborhood public elementary. We lived in a “good” district but it was still way more diverse than my private HS was. So by the time I got to HS I knew that not everyone wears designer clothes and lives in giant homes.
      – I went to a summer camp that had a program for kids in foster care. It was seriously eye-opening to learn that some kids lived in circumstances very different from mine and that we could be friends.
      – My parents were open about money and what things cost. I wasn’t allowed to throw temper tantrums and get toys or clothes. They were generous, but didn’t give in to whining and didn’t want me to be spoiled.
      – At age 12, I was given a budget. It included all my clothes, outing with friends, makeup, skincare, and school lunches (I was free to make lunch at home if I wanted to). It was again relatively generous, but they forced me to write down how much I was spending on each category and made it clear I had to plan for boring stuff (ie new gym shoes) and couldn’t spend it all on fun stuff and they wouldn’t bail me out if I went over. I’m still a good budgeter today.
      – I started babysitting at 13 and had a variety of student jobs (retail, camp counselor, etc). Definitely taught me the value of money.
      – they paid for college and gave me some money for living expenses, but it was a pretty tight budget. I learned to make sound decisions within my budget and got a student job to pay for extras. And I got to graduate debt-free.

      My parents were both from middle-class families and had successful careers. They worked hard and made it clear that we were comfortable because they worked hard. I dated a trust fund kid in college, and although we had similar upbringings in many ways, his level of entitlement around money was something else and I hope I never raise my kid that way.

      1. We did the budget/allowance thing with our daughter when she turned 13. I added up the money I had been spending on all her stuff, gave it to her as an allowance, and required her to pay for all the things herself with a debit card and track her spending in a budget spreadsheet. One month she spent nearly her entire allowance at the summer camp canteen–boy, that was a good lesson. She has gotten to be a pretty savvy spender.

    8. Following for more ideas (my kids are growing up MUCH better off than I did) but some things my upper middle class parents did right:
      -allowance, gradually increasing until in high school I paid for pretty much all my own expenses and had to budget.
      -not spotting me when allowance money ran out… whether I was 6 and crying at the end of vacation because I spent all money and found the perfect toy in the airport or 16 and whining that my entertainment budget didn’t go far enough, it was always the same “you spent your money, deal with the consequences”
      -making me do chores and generally contribute to family life
      -reminding me of my privilege
      -I didn’t do blue collar jobs in high school (school/internships were my “job”) but my parents acted like my bosses and made sure I took those things seriously. No goofing off/fun until school was in very good shape. They’re white and not recent immigrants but were very much in the tiger parent model.
      -they didn’t do this (because they thought it would take too much time away from school) but I plan to have my kids volunteer

    9. My dad was always cheap, even though we were very well off. He definitely modeled this in his every day life and decisions.

      The #1 thing is that my parents knew how to say no. They definitely weren’t pushovers and were ok listening to us whine because we didn’t what we want.

      Money is something that we discussed openly. For example, we used to go skiing almost every weekend, but then he would discuss how much each element of the trip cost on the drive home. I’m sure I found it eyeroll-worthy at the time, but looking back, that really helped me drive how much things we considered “everyday” costs. My dad also made sure we understood the impact of taxation–if we were talking about how much something expensive would cost, he would clarify that in fact it doesn’t just cost X; you would need to make Y before tax to be able to afford it.

      My dad also instilled the importance of doing chores and DIY projects. I would always complain and say “why can’t we hire someone to do [cleaning, painting, mowing the lawn, etc.]” and he would make us do it anyways and showed us how to do things the right way. Again as a kid, I was so annoyed, but I’m so much more independent as an adult because of this. I also don’t trust other people to do it the “right” way, but that’s another discussion… haha

      1. Agree with saying No. I didn’t get everything I wanted, but my parents didn’t make my life unreasonably difficult or stressful. I shared a hand me down car with my sibling and paid for my own gas even though they could afford to buy us each a new car. I had a budget for back to school clothes. If I wanted to do something extravagant like go to a concert I paid for it. They bought me a phone but I had to deal with a cracked screen until I was due for an upgrade. We did the same chores as my parents, things like taking out the garbage and wiping down the kitchen counter, but they didn’t force us to clean our toilets while paying a service to clean their own. On the other hand I know someone whose rich parents made her pay for everything in high school, down to toothpaste and tampons. It gave her permanent anxiety surrounding money

    10. The only children of wealthy families I know who are well adjusted adults are the black sheep, I think some form of neglect unfortunately has the effect of making you not entitled. My BFF is a member of one of the political dynasties and is the nicest human ever but that’s because they work a normal job and live in an apartment, their family doesn’t like them enough to share the family fortune or estates.

      1. IDK that I know any people that rich. But I do know plenty of rich-enough people where there is a SAHM who is singularly fixated on promoting her kids. The son had better not be passed over for quarterback. His GF had better not get pregnant. The daughter must be a starter on the soccer team. I am not sure how many bodies are buried around our city paving the way but imagine some tense battles with other similar moms, all of whom want the same exact thing.

        At some point, is any of these kids’ success even theirs? A benefit to my kids I think of me working in a city where many moms don’t work is that I would not have the bandwidth to play puppet master, assuming I were so inclined.

        1. My BFFs siblings are all very ‘successful’ except their ‘jobs’ (a term I am using loosely) are very surface and only through connections, they are in no way qualified. They live in lovely homes….that are paid for by the family trust. Not a single thing in their life was earned or deserved. Don’t even get me started on the fake philanthropy.

        2. I know a mom like this. The older daughter resisted the tiger parenting and turned out perfectly lovely, although I think that is largely due to innate personality. The younger one is less intelligent, less thoughtful, and less talented than her older sister but got the full tiger mom treatment. I know for a fact that one of her biggest “achievements” was planned, orchestrated, and mostly executed by the mom. In the end it still wasn’t enough to get her into an elite college, to the mom’s endless consternation. This kid turned into a real piece of work and it will be interesting to see whether she gets taken down to size in college.

          1. This is pedantic, but what you described isn’t tiger parenting, it’s snowplow parenting. The tiger mom would never ever do work for her kids!

      2. Conversely one of my best friends from college is both amazingly well-adjusted and incredibly rich (like the investment income on her trust is millions a year and she stands to inherit even more). She has a full-time job, albeit one that pays pennies relative to the cost of her education. Her lifestyle is certainly more luxurious than what the income from her job would support, she but is a lovely, responsible, kind person.

        Her biggest issue is avoiding people who either want to take advantage of her or who resent her which is one of the reasons she keeps her assets private and does not live more lavishly.

      3. Black sheep here. Totally agree with you. I saw the light in my late teens because my family was horrified that I went to the local Ethel Austin (affordable UK clothing store in the north west of the UK which is no longer) at 14 to ask for a job. The government had just passed legislation banning those under 16 from working. I was bored. I wanted to learn how to work because everyone in my family was business owners or executive leadership, not employees. The expectation was that you do not work for free, you do not work in a job, your education was to get a good husband and you do not work once you have children.

        I continue to have a harder time with getting basic things done, like repair work to my home, because of my accent and background. For a male its a huge advantage in the workplace but for a female its generally not helpful at all. I moved to America to escape the discrimination and its easier here but I still experience it. In the UK if I shop with my children no one helps me. I have to be on my own and ask for help explaining I need clothing for a formal business meeting where c suite executives will be attending. Multiple times its been assumed I am attending an assistant.

        My 3 children shared a bedroom until the eldest was 9 and my girls continue to share a room with my son in the walk-in closet. Safety over individual bedrooms and it is doing no harm to my child to have to share. I refuse to move to a home with ensuite bathrooms for each bedroom. Sharing a bathroom is a useful way to learning to respect each other when team sports are crazy.

    11. That was one of the judgiest holier-than-thou threads we’ve had in a long time, which is really saying something about a place that engages in that kind of thing as a favorite pastime.

      1. I think that the baseline of that convo was valid: people hiring MBAs rightly avoid people who have never held a job before. It wouldn’t have to be at McDonald’s. Just something that would give a person hiring you confidence that you don’t have to be told that you need to be on time and responsive.

    12. I would say UMC, not “very wealthy,” but worked fast food & retail hourly jobs starting at 15 (McD’s hires 14yos). Aside from “value of a dollar” (as I would think about whether I really wanted to work 4 hours to buy a $20 top), exposure to SO many different backgrounds, ages, etc. was invaluable.

    13. related question for everyone saying allowances – how do you deal when grandparents give big birthday and holiday gifts to the kids? my 10 year old just got a $500 check like every birthday… i’ve been investing it for the kids in an UTMA but if they had the money they’d be even more spoiled. it makes allowance kind of irrelevant. (also, i have boys, so spending is mostly limited to video games.)

      1. I have my kids write thank-you notes and then I deposit the funds into their Greenlight account but stuff it into Savings and give them like $50 in spending cash. Come college, they will appreciate it. Until then, they have no real bills. They do get a basic allowance and can do extras like yardwork for a $10 per hour additional rate. They do some babysitting and neighborhood tasks (dog walking, watering plans when people travel, etc.). Teen girls.

        1. I think this is the right way. I would want to teach them that when you get an unexpected windfall, you save most of it, but you keep some amount (whatever makes sense given the amount and child’s age) to buy something special. That’s how I treat my yearly bonus too :)

      2. No one in our life gives our kids gifts like this, except directly to their 529s. At that age, I’d definitely talk to the kid about putting most of it in a college fund.

    14. I didn’t go to private school so not sure I fall into the “very wealthy/privileged” bracket, but we were well off (dad was a lawyer, mom stayed home). My dad actually later told me the things he purposefully did to make sure we didn’t grow up spoiled:
      1. We went camping every year as a family. This was sleeping in a tent, cooking over the Coleman stove camping (not glamping). He wanted to show us that you can have fun for not much money. And some of our best family memories are from camping trips.
      2. He would take me to K-Mart to buy shoes and clothes as a kid. I was never fixated on brands and actually never knew anything about high end brands.
      I think a lot of it was just family culture and culture of our close friend group, honestly. Our family has a very mid-west middle class vibe, and those were the relatives we visited every summer. I went to public school and while my friends and I did dance and various extracurricular activities and our parents bought us a car in high school, no one in my circle was going on fancy trips to Vail or anything like that. We just didn’t judge anything based on “prestige.” And some of it is just inherent to the kid’s personality and interests, probably.

    15. IDK what counts as “wealthy and privileged” but I grew up in a family that did not qualify for financial aid in college, and we were certainly on the upper end of upper middle class. I lived in a nice suburb of NYC and went to a top public high school. My kids are growing up similarly, but I know DH and I have more money than my parents ever did- we are decidedly upper class (but our kids still go to public school).

      My parents:
      – Bought me a car (a few years used but nice sedan) when I was a teen but required that I pay for the car insurance and gas. This was the late 90s so gas was cheap but car insurance was $$$. I had a part time job and also babysat. When I totaled my car, they did not replace it. After 6 months, I was given the choice of no car or my grandmother’s 1988 tan Buick century. My parking spot was next to my friend with a brand new 1999 Jeep.
      – Paid for my undergrad but required that I take out the max loans in my name. When I graduated, I had about $25k of loans. They gave me $5k toward it as a graduation gift. I paid off the rest.
      – My parents bought me 3 pairs of shoes per school year and basic clothing. I got a reasonable (many of my friends got more, but it was IMO reasonable- I want to say maybe $10/week plus the opportunity to earn more for additional chores?) allowance and was responsible for buying any other clothing myself.
      – My siblings and I were required to have our room and bathroom(s) (my sister and I shared, my brother used the hall one) clean before doing anything social on the weekend. We also had to do minor yard work.

      My parents did not pay for graduate school. When I got married, they were part of the planning and paid for some core pieces but it wasn’t a wild affair. I think they paid the all-inclusive per-plate fee a the venue (something like $100pp). DH and I paid the rest.

    16. I guess we’re wealthy now but grew up middle class in Asia. We don’t give kids pocket money. They work hard at school, loads of ECAs and they have seen utter poverty firsthand in our home country. We tell them stories of hardship from our parents time. They’ve been told they need to work for what they want in life, as we did. We donate to charity and they have used birthday money in the past to give also.

  16. Hive – I might lose my job at the end of the week. I love my job and do not want to lose it…please this internet stranger in your prayers/thoughts/good vibes.

    2. I’m so sorry. I hope it does not come to pass.

      I would suggest saving contact info for managers, colleagues, etc. you may need to contact afterwards for references. Also start documenting notes about your projects, accomplishments, awards or other info you can use on a resume. Hopefully you will not needed it, but better to be prepared.

      1. OP here – thank you, this is a good idea. I’ve never been in this situation before and I’m not thinking clearly.

        1. Good vibes; I really hope the best for you.

          If you have things that are precious to you in your office and think you may not have the chance to take them out with you, take them now. If you have personal files on your work machines, also clean those up now.

          1. Sending you good vibes. This is good advice – take the time to think about what you might want from your work computer – contacts, not sure if there are any personal docs saved on your work computer. Clean out any personal files if you think you need to and bring home any very personal items that you would want access to right away. I would print out my contact list for sure. Keep us posted and keep your head up. You will get through whatever happens.

          2. If you have any travel loyalty accounts, journals, professional society memberships, etc. linked to your work e-mail or phone number, change the contact info on those accounts now.

    3. Vibes to you. If it helps, I lost a job I didn’t want to lose in 2020 and in hindsight it was one of the best things that ever happened to me. It changed my career trajectory and I am so much happier now.

      Best of luck to you.

      1. Agreed, if it happens, I’m sorry. Being let go is awful and can take time to find another job, but you’ll get there. If you don’t let go, this is still an opportunity to plan. Look at job postings. Are there any that interest you? Do you need more skills to get the next step up or should you look at lateral moves? How are you being paid compared to the rest of the market?

        Good luck!

  17. I’m in the beginning stages of planning a solo trip for a milestone birthday in the fall.

    Would you go to London or Italy? Italy would probably be Florence, potentially Milan, maybe a day in Tuscany.

    Any thoughts on tours? It sounds like a good idea but I am also tempted by the idea of just traveling at my own pace and hanging out, rather than barreling through multiple cities in a week.

    1. I’d do Italy, especially Tuscany, but I’m biased because I think Italy is always the answer. As a solo traveler I prefer northern Italy (Tuscany included). The further south you get the more likely you are to get harassed, and I’d especially avoid Sicily as a solo woman.

      I’ve never had a positive experience on an organized multi-night tour but I know others here have. I’d travel independently and book lots of shorter tours/classes so you don’t get too lonely. I love doing cooking classes, especially in Italy.

    2. I’ve solo travelled in all of those locations but Milan, and they were lovely in their own way. Florence/Tuscany and London are very approachable for tourists, so IMO there would be no reason to go with a tour group. You could always book a day tour if there was a day trip you wanted to do that felt unmanageable solo.

      Which one I’d recommend depends on what you want to do, although I’d skip Milan unless you’re into fashion or cars. What kinds of things do you see yourself enjoying on the trip?

    3. I’m hoping to spend my 40th next year in Florence. I won’t do a tour, but my idea of a nice holiday is lots of relaxing and getting up in the morning then deciding how to spend the day and being able to please myself, so it just isn’t my style anyway. I went to Florence years ago and to me it’s a cosy, wandering around, looking at beautiful things and eating beautiful food holiday; I’m thinking of booking a really fancy hotel for at least a couple of nights. I lived in London for years and I think a special trip there would be busier, more travel between things, maybe more shopping. People watching in both can be amazing.

      1. Just FYI I’ve been to Florence twice in 3 years, both times in what should have been shoulder seasons (October and April) and it was mobbed. MOBBED. We missed some things the first time because we did not book timed tickets ahead of time. It was incredibly different than my experience traveling spontaneously 15-20 years ago. I would definitely recommend booking ahead for the popular attractions. That said, I loved Florence and would absolutely go back — but maybe in the winter (and I hate winter!).

        Highly recommend Leone Blue Suites!

    4. I’ve done a lot of solo traveling and never used a tour group, but I did do some organized day trips. I’d vote for London because it’s more of a city. I went to Italy with my bf and it feels more romantic. London was easier to blend in and do things on your own without needing a car. I also went to Lisbon solo and highly recommend it!!

    5. Either will be great, but solo I’d do London. It just has more things to do that I would be 100% happy to do on my own (and I did, living there for a summer). I do many things solo in life, but on the the two days I spent alone in Italy, I never found a spot I really wanted to eat dinner by myself and I feel like I missed out a bit. I was fine on a group day tour alone, but it would have been better with someone. I never felt that way in London.

    6. OP following up here—I’ve been to Florence, Milan and Tuscany before and the Italian vibe is very much my ideal vacation: drinking coffee or wine at a cafe and then browsing through a museum or the leather market is perfect. The slow vibe does seem more like a romantic couple trip though…would I get bored of doing that alone? Maybe.

      I haven’t ever been to London and the sheer amount of places to visit is also intriguing but it’s a different vibe. I’ve read a zillion books set in London, am a big British TV watcher and love the royals and British history so those things alone could fill a week.

      Both sound great but in their own ways…I can’t decide!

      1. In that case I vote for something new! London! And I am a big lover of private guides or small group tours, which you can find on Viator or Tours By Locals dot com.

      2. In that case, London all the way! You can have a relaxed lush brunch, then browse a museum, then have a tea, then do some light shopping, then have a leisurely dinner. It’s a great spot for all of those things and very manageable as a solo traveler.

        Now I want to go to London…

  18. I keep getting eczema under my eyes. This is a recent issue within the last 6 months. It hurts and itches. Going to the derm next week to figure it out. Anyone else have this? Not sure what is causing it.

    1. There are so many things that can contribute to eczema. Skincare products, laundry products, nutritional deficiencies, it can even pop up with conditions like Celiac… dermatologist will probably focus on calming it down, and you may want to follow up with PCP to try to follow up on why it happened in the first place.

    2. I just got a patch right under my eyes and it’s clearly linked to me getting retinol too close to the under-eye area. Are there products you’re using that you could stop?

      1. this – i think it’s got to be a product. but maybe there’s a slight possibility it’s a skin infection of some kind?

  19. I’ll be in Marseille, FR for a brief work trip in a couple of weeks. I’ll have one free day. Any recs for food tours or must see sites? TIA!

  20. speaking of spoiled brats and privilege… my brother has always been a black and white thinker. there’s a Right Way and a Wrong Way for everything. he researches everything, can’t make decisions, thinks he has all the time in the world for major life things like marriage/kids. he hasn’t been feeling well so for 10 years he hasn’t been working, i’m sure in part due to this black/white mindset and, of course, his savings. how much of this mindset do you think is due to privilege? is there any way to help him grow out of it? (he’s 42 so i mean grow out of it more in the “grow as a person” way…

      1. he worked in biglaw for 6 years and was so busy he didn’t really spend money during those years.

        1. It doesn’t sound like he’s hurting anyone, plus he’s not a burden and is independent. Seems more like he hit ASD burn out and also has some sort of comorbid autoimmune issue (very common with ASD). Nothing you can really do if he won’t see a ND informed diagnostician though

    2. Some people are just wired this way and then being privileged enables it further. He almost certainly won’t change at this point.

    3. In my family, if you can take responsibility, you get responsibility (and no help).

      If you need to be taken care of, you get taken care of. It’s a bit annoying for adults (makes sense for young children). My sister is 50 and got her license late (so needed a driver), never worked in high school or college, and yet was sent to fun foreign trips her college sponsored and got to live away from home for the summers (on the parental dole). So annoying to watch from my crap retail jobs.

      OTOH, I am a functional adult. On purpose b/c I didn’t make crazy plans based on someone else (parents, rich husband turned deadbeat ex) taking care of me. My sister, at 50, likely won’t ever be.

    4. “Hasn’t been feeling well” isn’t much of a diagnosis. Is he okay? (Is there any reason to wonder if he’s on the spectrum?) People with no privilege and no savings can also be black and white, struggle with making decisions, face obstacles to medical diagnosis and care, and deal with unmanaged psychological issues. I haven’t observed that suffering from financial instability, housing insecurity, or food insecurity just makes people grow up and get it together in that kind of scenario. People just live with a lot of difficulty.

      1. he’s had a million different ailments and sees like 15 different specialists and then gets second opinions and all the while refuses to take OTC/obvious drugs because of various Reasons he finds in his research. i would not be surprised at all to find he has an autoimmune disease — but i feel like it’s either something or it’s nothing, it isn’t 15 unrelated somethings.

        also wouldn’t be surprised if he were on the spectrum but i’ve asked if he considers himself ND (i’m adhd) and he said no, so i don’t even think he’s curious.

        1. It could be fifteen sort of related somethings, unfortunately. That’s not uncommon, and the healthcare system is terrible with chronic illness. If he doesn’t consider himself ND, he and his doctors may not be considering the relevant research (I recently shared All Brains Belong as having a fantastic guide for people who have the comorbidity stew going on). It is absolutely normal to need a lot of specialists and a lot of second opinions if there’s something autoimmune that isn’t completely textbook (and autoimmune disease is only textbook up to 80% of the time max).

          Both health outcomes and employment outcomes for people who really are on the spectrum are not great, so the black and white thinking plus the health issues plus the unemployment just made me wonder about it.

          1. i’m the OP – very interesting! do you mean that he could have 15 somethings all being symptomatic from one autoimmune or other chronic illness — so if he treats the autoimmune or chronic illness the others will get better? or do you mean that because of a weak immune system caused by an autoimmune or chronic illness he has gotten 15+ different somethings all of which need to be treated as unrelated things? (can you give me any resources to learn more? i’ll take a look at all brains belong, last time you mentioned them i think their website was down so i just liked their FB page.

          2. I was thinking of the situation where someone may (or may not) have an immune deficiency, a connective tissue disorder, a mast cell disorder (maybe involving allergy and asthma), and a handful of different autoimmune conditions, some of which may manifest as diagnosable syndromes (POTS) or findings (neuropathy). So it can seem like a lot of diagnoses, but they’re clustering in a recognized pattern and some of them are closely related.

            Here is the link I bookmarked; I hope it actually works! I was happy to see someone put this together because I feel I just lucked out on a doctor who knew more because he himself has ADHD, and some specialists who are just superstars in their fields thanks to a destination hospital system. It makes me feel like there’s another timeline where I never got help, so that’s probably where I’m projecting here that maybe your brother is just really, really flailing.

            allbrainsbelong.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Everything-is-Connected-to-Everything-Autistic-ADHD-Health-CLINICIAN-GUIDE-All-Brains-Belong-VT-9.20.23.pdf

    5. I will just say that I grew up in poverty, and black or white thinking is not the sole province of privileged people.

      No real insight on the other issue except that it’s often very difficult for adults to change very ingrained behavior patterns, and the will to do so always has to be internal vs external, so you really only have control over your own reactions in this scenario.

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