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Updated: Oct 30, 2018 403 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Sleeveless Sheath Dress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) |

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old-navy-sheath-dress-for-workOur daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. This sheath dress comes in black and gray, in addition to the berry color pictured here. It looks like a great basic, it's machine washable, and it's got really good reviews at Old Navy. They actually have a lot of cute dresses now, like this ponte swing dress that we featured this week at CorporetteMoms. This one comes in regular, petite, and tall sizes and is on sale for $19-24. Sleeveless Sheath Dress Here's a plus-size option, also from Old Navy. Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-all)

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Comments

  1. Loretta Lynn / country music concert question

    Y’all, an important question:

    If you could see Loretta Lynn in concert in Pigeon Forge or Myrtle Beach this winter (Jan/Feb), which one would you pick? Both are my only drive-in-half-a-day options.

    Also: what would you wear? I am thinking cowboy boots, jeans, something sparkly. She is my daughters’ Taylor Swift. And she’s like 80? So we are not waiting for a convenient local concert date. Also, what do grade-schoolers wear to country music concerts? We wear school uniforms, so I am out of the cool kid attire loop, much less what to wear to something like this.

    • emeralds

      Definitely Pigeon Forge. I’d wear jeans, boots, and a fun top for both you and the kids. Super jealous!

    • Gig

      Pigeon Forge! I saw Loretta last year, it was wonderful. Your outfit sounds great, maybe a version of the same for your daughter?

    • Loretta Lynn / country music concert question

      Shoot — H mentioned December dates, but they are for this weekend (!!!)(which is, sadly, out for us) in PF. So Myrtle Beach it is (there is also Charleston in April, but the tickets are more than double what they are in MB, plus a hotel in MB will be cheaper (and may be on the beach)). But if this goes well, maybe we can time a PF visit since I bet she’d do that again.

    • Macademia

      How fun! When I was in high school my dad took me to see Crystal Gayle (Loretta’s younger sister). I am sure you two will have a blast.

    • MargaretO

      Wow you are an awesome mom and it sounds like you have a super awesome daughter! My parents took me to a big deal concert like this when I was in middle school, it made my year and I still remember it, I’m guessing your daughter will too. I don’t really have any advice just wanted to tell you how cool your family sounds!

  2. Anonymous for this

    On October 24, 2014 I weighed 420 pounds. Today, December 9, 2016 I weigh 198 pounds. Besides surgery to remove 10 pounds of excess skin I’ve lost it all because of diet and exercise. I have about 70 pounds to go still, but when I saw the number on the scale this morning I cried. I can’t believe that my weight starts with a 1. It hasn’t started with a 1 since I was 13, and I’m 28 now.

    • I'm Just Me ....

      Congratulations! That’s a lot of hard work! Enjoy your new body, and enjoy the fact that you made it happen.

      • Ellen

        Kudo’s to you! YAY!!!! I love it when I read great storie’s like yours. So many peeople just come to the hive to compleain (sometimes even me), but YOU are a sucess story! I wish you all the best with your new self! Have a VERY happy new year! DOUBEL YAY!!!!!

    • NY CPA

      You go girl! Such an inspiration!
      I’m currently down 40 lbs since May, but I still have a long way to go. So glad to hear that you were able to do it :)

    • Congrats!

      Congratulations!!! That’s such a huge accomplishment. My husband went through similar weight loss before I met him, and I’ve always been so impressed by that and the dedication/discipline it took for him to accomplish that. You’re a rock star!!

    • Anon

      Congratulations! What an amazing achievement. You should feel SO PROUD of all your hard work. Also, it has got to feel great to be approaching the new year so healthy and fit. Mazels!

    • Lynn

      Congratulations! That’s such a huge accomplishment. A friend of mine went from 365 to 165, and along the way she kept a checklist of all the things her body was now capable of. Like riding a normal bike, walking a certain distance (this kept changing as she kept walking), not needing a seatbelt extender, breathing easily while lying on her back. It was really impressive and a great way to feel gratitude for what our bodies are capable of.

    • Anonymous

      Whoo hoo!! I’ve lost about 70 lbs in a year and a half, all diet and exercise. THANK YOU for sharing. You’re an inspiration!

    • Anonn

      You are absolutely amazing. KEEP IT UP!

      Can I ask what, if any, support systems you had outside of the home? Nutritionist? Trainer? Weight watchers?

    • Friendly Anon

      First, I want to say that we are not congratulating you because you are now much lighter than you were–we are congratulating you because it takes Herculean drive and discipline to achieve the weight loss you did! Absolutely amazing. I hope that you feel better on the inside too, but just wowsa–I cannot even imagine the amount of transformation in your life (and all the shopping! sheesh!). Seriously, I am in awe and want to give you ALL THE HIGH FIVES!

    • nutella

      That is amazing!!!!!!!! Congratulations! Keep up the good work! And you should be SO proud of yourself!

    • Midwest Mama

      Wow, congratulations. To keep up your effort for over two years is such a huge accomplishment. You should be very proud of your hard work and dedication.

    • cbackson

      GOOD FOR YOU! I hope that you are enjoying the heck out of activities that might have been hard for you before your health changes.

      • Anonymous

        Another late response, but wanted to say that’s awesome. I wish I had that kind of focus and drive. I know it is hard.

    • Accountabiliabuddy

      Can you get in touch with me? I’ve lost 30 so far, have 20 or 30 more to go, am losing interest. I’ve lost weight before and put it back on. I don’t want that to happen again! It sounds like you know how to keep it up for the long haul. Any chance you’d be willing to support each other? It sounds strange, but I think just knowing someone was there would help me keep at it.

  3. Anon

    My company has announced big redundancies. I’m slithering about putting in for voluntary. What do I need to consider?

    • In the same boat

      I’m in the same boat as you right now. My company has announced something similar as well. Thus is what my coworkers and I have been talking about for our considerations:

      –what stage are you at in your career right now? Are you relatively settled into your type of position? Are you close to retirement or new to the working world? Is anything happening in your personal life that would have prompted you to take time off (sick relative, new baby etc.)?

      –look at your industry-are there other companies in your local area in the same industry? Would you need to move to stay in a job in your field? Are there related fields that you could transfer to? Do you do highly specialized work-either in the sense that you would be in demand or in the sense that you would be a hard sell to other types of work?

      –what severance package is being offered for voluntary folks? Health insurance continuation or just cobra? Do you have any chronic or emergency health conditions that rely on insurance or do any of your dependents? How many months of pay are you getting? Do you have other sources of income or does a significant other? What are your monthly expenses? Is your job offering job placement help or services? What type and for how long?

      –how strong is your personal and professional network? Do you have friends or family that would have your back if you fall into dire straits? Can you start networking now for job opportunities?

      –What had your company shared about redundancy eliminations? Have they identified the functionalities or process groups most likely to be eliminated after voluntary layoffs? If not, do you know enough about your position and value to the company to know whether you are likely to survive involuntary layoffs and restructuring?

      Sorry for the long list, these are all the factors I’m considering at this time.

      • Jen

        I took it, but the offer was good and I just got a new boss and was very skeptical about my job security (high salary, VP level, new president (boss) had a buddy from his prior org with my role…). I had a 12 month non compete but it was very loose- I just couldn’t move into a sales role at a competitor (I was leaving a BD role so while not super likely, not insane).

        I got a year severance inc. bonus, insurance continuation (not just cobra). The sev package without voluntary was 6-9 months and no bonus.

        I was 5-6 months pregnant at the time so it was possible I’d dodge the RIF simply so they didn’t have to cut the pregnant woman. But instead I got 3 months home with my 3 y/o, a 9 month paid mat leave during which I spun up a pet time consulting business with a former colleague. I’m now part time consulting, home part time.

        I banked a lot of my sev pay, banked 100% of my consulting income during the 12 months, and in the interim DH has gotten a promotion/raise. We have a year + of living expenses in the bank and could live on FH’s salary alone if we had to. My consulting income is all savings/fun.

        My ego was bruised, and I did a lot of soul searching but I’m happy with my choice. I didn’t feel like I was missing time with the 3 y/o, but I’m really enjoying her. And I wasn’t super pumped about spending 60k/year on childcare (preschool + nanny) once we had 2. I now only spend 18k/year on child care inc. preschool since I do my own schedule and have a ton more flexibility.

        • Jen

          Oh, Ingot placement help too. I didn’t use it but colleagues of mine did and found it helpful.

  4. Sydney Bristow

    I tried Dia&Co this week, which is like a plus size StichFix company, and thought I’d share my experience. When signing up there’s a questionnaire to describe your size and shape as well as style preferences. You can also link your Pinterest/Facebook/instagram to give them a sense of your style. You also pick a dollar range that you are comfortable with. Then for a $20 fee they’ll pick items and send you a box of 5 items. If you keep something the $20 fee will go towards the price. If you don’t keep anything, you’re out the $20. You have 5 days after receiving the items to return any in the prepaid envelope. Shipping both ways is free. This company is targeted at sizes 14 and up.

    I submitted my questionnaire on Sunday night and received my first box yesterday. I said I was interested in both work and casual clothes. I received a pair of skinny jeans, a casual black top, a grey blouse that works for work or casual, a work dress, and a gold necklace. I shop online extensively but had never seen these particular items. I wound up googling them and couldn’t find anything that wasn’t related to Dia&Co so I think that they might commission at least some of the items. The dress was from Eloquii but I looked a lot and never found anything similar.

    I’d say the box was about 75% my style of really close, which I was happy with for a first attempt. I’m interested to see how they adjust to my preferences next time. After trying everything on, you sign in and rate and review each item. So I was able to point out that I don’t like high-low hems (like the black top had), that I was open to trying skinny jeans but that I don’t think they’ll ever work with my, and that I prefer cleaner lines than the dress had (and that Eloquii seems to run smaller than the others on me). I’m keeping the gray blouse and necklace, both of which slip nicely into my existing wardrobe.

    I’m really happy with them so far and plan to do at least 2 more boxes over the next few months. I recommend checking it out if you are size 14+ and want some new items that you otherwise wouldn’t find for yourself. I thought it was fun. If you want, I can send you a referral link that would give me a $20 credit. But if you’re interested I’d suggest trying it out referral link or no.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for the review. I am also plus size and did Gwennie Bee, and I hated almost everything they sent me. I didn’t find much work appropriate, and I never really figured out proper sizing. Plus, there were a lot of ugly prints. I hadn’t heard of Dia&Co, so I’ll check it out!

      • Jessica

        Interesting, I’ve done Gwynnie Bee for a few years now and nearly all my work clothes are from there. I love their dresses – interesting prints and patterns work well for my work place. And they hooked me on Danish jeans which are the first jeans I’ve had in many years that actually fit my curves. It does take some trial and error, but now I have a much better sense of what sizes and brands fit me. Actually getting clothes from GB has really revolutionized my closet. I have far fewer clothes that I keep, but I have a steady influx of new/seasonal/stylish clothes so I don’t feel like I wear the same thing all the time. And I get so many more compliments on my clothes – a big reason for this is that I am finally wearing clothes that are actually cut and shown to fit and flatter my figure, not me squeezing into clothes that are too tight in the chest or too loose in the waist, etc.

      • Anon

        I also didn’t like Gwinnie Bee. I felt the styles were more church-on-Sunday than serious-lady-boss. And lots of polyester and rayon-spandex – few wool, silk or cotton items.

        I’m getting semi-regular Trunk Club boxes now. Trunk Club is owned by Nordstrom. The concept is a little different. You have a consistent personal shopper. She knows your preferences for brand, fabric, size and style. You get a preview of your box and can reject things you already know won’t work. Once you get your box, you have a set amount of time to return things – it’s a shopping service and not a rental service so it’s a short period of time. But I have found the returns easy. UPS picks up the box. I don’t have to haul it to the UPS store.

        The prices are higher than the other services I’ve seen but the quality is much better.

        I like my personal shopper, Jade. She’s a lot younger than me and not plus sized but her picks have been great. Just different enough to push me a little, but consistent with my lifestyle and age. So far I’ve had a casual wear box and a toppers for work box and I’ve kept most of both boxes.

        • Sydney Bristow

          I didn’t realize Trunk Club worked for plus sizes. I’ll look into that too.

          I’m pretty sure that my stylist will be the same going forward. Dia@Co seems to be similar to what you’re subscribing. It’s not a subscription thing. You can order a box whenever you want or schedule them.

          I never tried Gwynnie Bee because I didn’t like enough of the items online. Dia&Co was a sort of blind trial for me. A friend had a really good experience and recommended it.

          • Sydney Bristow

            Oh and you can’t see the items they send on their website but there are a lot of people posting on instagram with the company name. It gives you a bit of an idea. The blouse I kept is the Modamix Brooke Blouse. If you google that you’ll see some other reviews of the service.

        • Senior Attorney

          I didn’t realize Trunk Club was owned by Nordstrom! Makes perfect sense, though! I’m a little scared off by their price (got one trunk and loved it but I don’t want to make $400 DVF trousers a habit!) but Lovely Husband adores his Trunk Club stylist and she has got him looking stupidly stylish.

          • Anonymous

            I did Trunk Club and LOVED it … I had to stop for the time being when I was laid off but am exciting to start again when new job begins in Jan. I was hesitant because of the prices too- but I found the things I got were truly good quality and I was less tempted to buy cheaper lower quality things that I usually regret anyway. I was impressed by my stylist – she was proactive in getting to know me on social media , she listened to what I wanted, great service. Can’t say enough good things

        • RR

          Love Trunk Club. My stylist has done a great job of getting me to try new things that I ended up loving but never would have tried myself (e.g., ankle pants, sheath dresses). And, when I bought an expensive piece that went on sale at Nordstrom 2 weeks later, they credited me the difference.

    • Never too many shoes...

      I find Eloquii to be so inconsistent with sizing that it is really hard to shop there. That being said, Kady ankle pants are so so good.

  5. Famouscait

    I am traveling to Malaysia next week (KL and Putrajaya). I’m planning to pack cropped jeans with flowy Ts/blouses and a few maxi dresses. Is this modest enough for the locale?

    • LAnon

      Yes, absolutely. KL is a major shopping/fashion destination in Asia so you will see a very wide variety of fashions there. If you are visiting religious sites, you will be asked to cover up more (i.e. your hair at mosques), but for generally being out and about, that will be totally appropriate.

      • Famouscait

        Would a short shift dress also be acceptable? Or do knees need to be covered?

        • BB

          FWIW, I haven’t been there in 6 years, but I did spend several months there. It really is pretty varied if you’re not visiting religious sites. I worked there and wore pretty standard western suits (+ jeans/shorts with t shirt when off). Knees are fine.

    • BB

      I would add: You might get some looks if your maxi dresses are super low cut…but then I guess that would happen in NYC too :)

    • CX

      A white gauzy scarf is always great for covering up (particularly if you’re busty) in a hot climate. Temples will require you to wear long skirts or pants. Linen is your friend in that climate. Just don’t be the American wearing shorts.

      But, the great thing about KL is that is such a melting pot: you can sit at a cafe in Bukit Bintang and watch a middle aged mini skirt-wearing ethically-Chinese woman dragging along her punk rock teen daughter, side by side with an Emirati banker’s wife in full niqab.

      Wear comfortable shoes that can take a beating.

    • ChiLaw

      I was in KL about this time of year (I think?) and it was meltingly hot. Well, it was the humidity, really. So I agree on linen, and want to caution you on jeans if you run hot — you might want something cooler. I wore maxi skirts or knee length skirts, or linen pants, and looser cotton tees (with a cotton cami underneath because that seems to lessen the shock of coming into air conditioning). I always had a few gauzy scarves for covering my arms from the sun, wrapping around my head, whatever. I think you will be fine wearing less, but why not err on the side of modesty?

    • Anonymous

      I lived in Malaysia for a few years, and wore pretty much what I wear in the States. The only time you need to cover up is going to a religious site or one of the more conservative states, like Terranaganu.

      That said, you spend a lot of time inside there, and it is really air conditioned. So, I would end up being covered just out of necessity (movie theaters were like heavy sweatshirt and scarf cold).

      When I went around KL, I’d typically have a T-shirt, jeans, light sweater/sweatshirt/jacket, scarf and flat sandals.

    • Anonymous

      Please add dresses. Sleeveless would be perfect. Just carry a large scarf if visiting Mosques.

  6. Anonymous

    I actually own this dress in both the cranberry and grey colours. It is a super comfortable dress, but I will warn you that it runs a little on the short side. It definitely stops above the knee on me. I’m 5’7″ and 230lbs and wear a L in this dress. Highly recommend it!!

      • AIMS

        I think I have it in a spring color. I’m about 5’4 & it is a little short but not unreasonably so. Def. better with tights. One other warning: the sides are cut a little deep/low, so I have to wear it with a cardigan at all times or bra shows.

    • Bonnie

      I saw that it is available in tall sizes online. I haven’t tried this dress but typically buy the tall option in ON dresses for my 5’4″ height.

  7. Anon

    I saw an item on Amazon listed for a penny plus free shipping (third party seller). Thinking it was just a pricing error, I ordered on the off chance it would be fulfilled. I then went and looked at all the seller’s other items and it’s the same, one penny plus free shipping, new seller, zero feedback. So clearly I fell for some kind of scam. What should I do to protect myself? It’s marked as shipped too which is really weird… Anyone know what’s going on?

    • Emmy See

      Do you have a tracking number for the shipment? Anyway I’d wait and see if it arrives. If it doesn’t, contact Amazon–they’ll sometimes refund you for problems with third-party sellers because they like to keep their customers happy. Also, if they don’t, you’re only out a penny, right? Or are you worried about identity theft? If so, can you cancel your card and get a new one?

      • Veronica Mars

        I do but it’s fake. I’m so frustrated I placed the order! I wonder what they’re getting at. You’re right, I should probably cancel my card and get a new one just in case.

        • Jen

          What’s fake? Have you called Amazon? They can help make this right. I would at minimum give your CC company a heads up. Mine will decline charges from certain places if j request it (i.e. “No online charges from anywhere other then X unless I call to authorize).

    • cbackson

      Look at your credit card statement. If the transaction is marked as Amazon Payments, the merchant didn’t get your card info.

    • Nudibranch

      Was it a used paperback? This (used to) happen a lot. I’ve ordered and received the book. However, I’ve noticed the shipping price quoted and the actual postage package varied substantially. I assumed it was a way to undercut their competitors while sneakily keeping the difference in postage as profit.

  8. Relationship question

    Posting this anonymously; I have a relationship question and could use whatever advice anyone has.

    I’ve been dating my boyfriend for almost 6 months (the 6 month anniversary of the day we met/our first date is actually on Sunday). He is a police officer. His partner is a woman and she is very attractive. He knew her back when they were in the army so they go way back. Besides her being attractive they have lots in common, they enjoy lots of the same things and they have shared life experiences. She has a boyfriend who she lives with and my boyfriend swears that there is nothing between them and never has been and they think of each other as brother and sister. I met her once and she was nothing but nice to me, and she is covering at work for my boyfriend over Christmas and New Years, because her boyfriend is an ER doctor who is also working, so my boyfriend and I can spend the holidays with my our families and each other.

    It’s not that I don’t trust him because I do. He’s been completely open with me about her. But it’s always in the back of my mind. I don’t know if I trust her. Part of me feels foolish for thinking this but the other part of me feels like I am right. He swears she has never come on to him. They have spent long days and nights together including stake outs, one of them in a hotel room for days/nights and my boyfriend told me they were in the same unit for one of their deployments and when they were injured she saw him with no pants or underwear and he saw her with no shirt or bra (the conversation didn’t start this way, he was telling me about when he was injured by a roadside bomb and he took shrapnel to his leg and as the conversation went on and I asked more questions he told me the medics stripped the clothes off everyone who was getting treated).

    Am I being irrational here? How do I address this? I have never felt this way before. The rational part of me says that no one cares about n*kedness in the army or when people are wounded, and that they work so closely because they are partners, and that they go way back and have been through a lot together so of course they know things about the other person and have confided in each other. But the other part of me says that she is so attractive I have a hard time believing that he wouldn’t sleep with her given the chance. I would appreciate any advice that anyone has. TIA.

    • Anonymous

      I had an activity partner for years before I got together with my husband. We didn’t work together (same industry and town though) but did a lot of things outside of work that a dating couple would do. But we weren’t ever dating. It has always been G-rated (20 years) and we were the only single people left in our circle. Fast forward — we are both married, went to each others weddings, and hang out with our kids and spouses.

      I think if they were going to be getting busy, they’d have already done it. They haven’t. [Her being attractive isn’t all that relevant with people cheating. People cheat on pretty spouses with less-pretty others and stay faithful to plain spouses. Not sure what the special sauce for cheating is, but attractiveness may help but it isn’t sufficient on its own.]

      • emeralds

        In the same vein, I have a good friend from college who is a man. We’ve been close for a long time at this point. A few years ago one of my girlfriends wanted to know if I minded if she asked him out, because she’d always thought he was attractive. But we hung out a lot, so she wasn’t sure if I liked him myself and didn’t want to make moves on someone I liked. My response was, “If something was going to happen between us, it would have already happened.”

        I took my boyfriend to my friend’s wedding this summer, and I couldn’t be happier for him and his wife. I love my friend and truly value his friendship, but the magic attraction sparkle dust was just never there for us (we’ve even seen each other naked, for what it’s worth…lol college). And even if we’d been interested, we’re a good fit as friends but would have been a trainwreck as a couple. He and his wife are perfect for each other and I’m so glad that they found each other.

        OP, you need to work through this for yourself. You have no reason to believe that your boyfriend is cheating on you, and no reason to distrust this woman. Given the length of time they’ve been friends and their continuing professional relationship, I think you either get to accept that she’s going to be a part of your boyfriend’s life, or break up with him. There is no option where you stay in the relationship and seethe with nerves and resentment every time she comes up. Would it make you feel better to spend more time with her and her husband? But from everything you’ve written, this is your issue, not your boyfriend’s, not his partner’s.

        • Anon2

          I also have a 20 plus year friendship with a man from college. He’s married to a lovely woman. We have never been anything more than friends. A friendly hug is as intimate as we have been. Men and women CAN be platonic friends.

        • Jen

          I have a platonic friend that j hooked up with ok ce in college. We both were drunk, and were like nope, nothing here. Fast forward we are now mid 30s and still completely platonic good friends. He’s on wife 2 (probably on to wife 3 in the future…) and I’m happy as can be with my own family. Grow I did tell my husband that I slept with Friend once a hundred years ago, and it was not an issue for us. Might have been if I never mentioned it and he found out one day.

      • bridget

        I’m also of the thought that “If anything were to happen, it already would have happened.”

        I also tend to believe that people who are interested in a friend as “more than a friend” tend to not be genuinely kind to the friend’s significant other. She’s going out of her way so you guys can spend holidays together: I would bet good money that she really, really cares about their friendship.

        If you’ve seen people who *are* interested in their “friend” or are carrying a torch for the ex, it’s unmistakable. I am of the firm opinion that you really don’t need to read tea leaves on this stuff.

      • Anonymous

        Agreed- if they were going to they would have (maybe they did once- I have a guy friend who I once hooked up with when we first met, but the connection wasn’t romantic & I think we both knew it and just kind of pretended it never happened. And 11 yrs later it still hasn’t happened again and never will…) . She sounds like a good friend to him- and if he wants to cheat it’s on him , the other person isn’t the problem. You’re playing with fire if you try to interfere, don’t put him in an uncomfortable position by having an issue with someone who is important to him – and cops bond with each other in ways other people don’t really understand, be glad he’s got her

    • Lynn

      You either trust him or you don’t. You can’t stop him from cheating or loving someone else, but that isn’t necessarily going to happen just because she’s pretty. There will always be someone to cheat with. Always. Not very comforting, I know, but that’s just life. Every relationship comes with the risk of getting hurt. I would stop asking him for assurances, because it really doesn’t change anything, which you already know because you’re still worried.

      FWIW, no, I don’t think they feel like brother and sister, but even so, if they go way back, wouldn’t they have explored that option already if they wanted to?

      Also, how is YOUR relationship with him? Because that’s what really matters, isn’t it?

      • Anon

        Why wouldn’t they feel like brother and sister? I’m a veteran, as is my husband. I feel that way about many of the people I served with, and my husband does too for the people he served with. What makes you so certain that they don’t actually feel this way?

        • anon

          +1. I’m not a veteran, but I have a close male friend of over 20 years, a lot of shared history etc, and I absolutely feel he’s like a brother. It never occurred to me to explore it as anything else, and I don’t think it did for him either, although I haven’t asked. It’s one of the most fulfilling relationships in my life, and I think everyone should have a friend like this.

          This doesn’t bother my husband at all. These relationships are a totally different kind of intimacy and “fulfilling.” The way I think of it, friends and romantic partners just don’t satisfy the same emotional need for me. They’re not in competition with each other- the bond is just different.

        • Lynn

          I’m not saying they feel romantically for each other. I’m saying with brother/sister relationships, it would never even occur to them. I bet it has occurred to them, and likely dismissed immediately. I’m probably explaining this all wrong. I agree it is a different level/type of intimacy.

      • Anonymous

        I don’t think you’re being irrational. I have a male friend from an old job, and people make comments about us. Well say we’re like brother and sister. Full disclosure? Over the years, I think we’ve had a couple of “moments” where we’ve each thought about it, so no we’re not really like brother and sister, but nothing has ever happened and it won’t. There comes a point when you’ve crossed the line into friends and for them it probably happened a long time ago. Don’t beat yourself up for worrying, but don’t get lost in your worry. He’s with you, not her.

      • anonshmanon

        +++1000. If you didn’t read yesterday’s morning thread, there was a related discussion there that I’d recommend. It started off with a much more concrete should-I-be-worried?-scenario, but lots of perspectives were shared on mutual trust, platonic relationships with people of the other sex, and setting individual boundaries.

    • Anonymous

      Maybe handle your misogyny? Why on earth would you say you trust him but aren’t sure about her? She has done literally nothing to give you that fear. Then address the root of your insecurity.

      There’s obviously no actual problem here. You’re making one up. Try and figure out why.

      He has had the chance to sleep with her for what a decade? And never has.

          • Anonymous

            Do you understand that misogyny is antipathy toward women as a group? She said she’s never felt this way before….so how is this anything other than a concern about a particular woman?

            I’m glad you know some big words, but maybe learn what they mean before you start throwing them around.

          • Anonymous

            Lol. She’s antagonistic to this particular woman not because of anything this woman has personally done, but because of her prejudice about how women act. This is obviously misogyny.

          • Anonymous

            Well, you may not understand what misogyny means or have basic reading comprehension skills, but who cares? You are SO confident in your opinions! RAWR.

          • Blonde Lawyer

            Pardon the interruption but is RAWR supposed to be like a Godzilla roar, an I am woman hear me roar noise, or is it an acronym for something? Really Annoyed With Rage?

          • anon

            Yeah, I agree. Assuming an attractive women isn’t trustworthy (when this woman on the face of things is a great friend, a war hero and was ‘nothing but nice’ to OP) is some sort of embedded misogyny, or as Hillary described it, implicit bias.

          • Anonymous

            And this type of whining/PC nonsense, my friends, is why people voted for Trump.

      • anonshmanon

        She knows her BF better, and has maybe only met the colleague a few times. It seems natural to trust your partner a lot, while not necessarily trusting others the same amount.
        You are right in that she gave the OP no reason to distrust her.

    • Anon

      As someone with two combat medics in the family, i can tell you that NO ONE involved in any situation involving an IED and shrapnel is thinking about anything other than doing everything they can to pull through and help others pull through. This was not fun s*xy n*ked peekabo times for them.

      Jesus.

      • Anonymous

        +1000

        My sister was also a combat medic. Shout out to the medics in your family.

      • BT

        I don’t think the OP meant it like that — I took it as her giving background as to the level of intimacy/ exposure that the BF and partner have in their history, in a non-sexual way. Like, they’re not just beer buddies.

        • Anon

          If it was background to intimacy/exposure in a non-sexual way, then it wouldn’t have mattered to OP that the woman saw her boyfriend’s junk. But it clearly does.

    • Anon2

      Yes, you are being irrational here. You address it by accepting the fact your boyfriend works with a woman who is so attractive (your words). If you can’t accept that, leave.

    • LAnon

      I think you should break up with him. Not because there is anything wrong with his relationship with his partner, but because this is likely not going to stop bothering you. You must rationally know that he is not sitting around fantasizing about the time he got to see some t*tties while having shrapnel removed from his leg. They have a very deep platonic relationship based on a lot of shared history. You’ve known him for six months. Given the reassurances he has already given you, it’s unlikely that anything we say here is going to change your mind, so rather than eventually put him in the situation of having to choose between you and her, give him the opportunity to find someone who is comfortable with the other relationships in his life.

      • Senior Attorney

        I tend to agree with this. We can all say you are being irrational until the cows come home, but you feel how you feel and unless you are able to magically stop feeling that way (maybe some therapy?) it’s likely to cause problems in your relationship. I feel like insecurity/jealousy are sure-fire relationship killers so maybe it is best to get out now.

        • Anonymous

          So you were able to overcome your year-long anxiety and insecurity about “Lovely Husband” but it would require the power of magic for her to do so? And she should just get out? I guess we can’t all be as lucky as SA.

        • Anonymous

          SA – I think the same person wrote all those +1s. I happen to agree with you. I also think Blonde Lawyer could be right that some of the +1 were agreeing with you. Regardless, don’t go away and ignore the one or possibly two people with the snarky response

    • Compote

      Yes. Maybe you’re just wanting the same intimacy they have? Knowing someone for years and going through military life together means they have a special bond, yes. But that doesn’t mean it’s a sexual one or that there is an attraction. Plus, I’m also of the mindset that if they really have known each other forever and they haven’t actually gotten together, it’s not going to happen.

      Take his comments about her at face value, don’t go looking for trouble. And don’t say you trust him but not the woman, that is super sexist. It’s the cheater, not the other person, who holds the blame.

      It sounds like your irrationality is stemming from some self-esteem issues to so also address that. If someone wants to be with you, they’ll be with you. If they don’t, they leave. He’s with you because he wants to be with you, try not to let your insecurity cloud your happy relationship.

    • BT

      I think the responses are a bit harsh. Basically, you’re jealous. That’s ok, it’s human. I think the only thing that will cure that — if anything — is time. She does have way more history with this guy than you, and that’s got to be really tough. If you want to stay with this guy, you need to manage your jealousy so it doesn’t poison the relationship, but it is completely natural that you feel this way.

      • Emmer

        +1. Jealousy is normal but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. Accept that it’s the way you feel and manage it.

      • mascot

        +1. Also, most of us aren’t in a profession where we are expected to literally put our lives on the line for our co-workers. That kind of shared bond that you see in military/law enforcement and like professions is very intense. The closest thing you may have to compare it to is how you feel about your SO (romantic bond) or a family member (family bond). It’s hard to conceptualize that this shared bond can actually be platonic but you are going to have to figure out how to do that. He’d probably be just as close if this partner was male.

          • Calico

            THANK YOU! I didn’t want to be glib, but I was like, maybe watch the back catalog of SVU and you can see that you’re not alone. Plus- E & O never acted on it, right?

          • Anonymous

            There is apparently Elliot and Olivia fan fiction somewhere on the dark web. LOL. I did like that one episode where Elliot had to choose between chasing after evil criminals and helping a shot (stabbed?) Olivia. He chose Olivia.

        • Sloan Sabbith

          This. That bond is not a normal bond. I’d watch Junger’s Why Veterans Miss War and/or read Tribe by him. Vets get back from deployment and they have no one who would literally die for them and who they would die for, /even if they don’t like the person as a person/. That creates an incredibly deep bond. But it’s not romantic. He probably loves her. She loves him. But he loves his male platoon members JUST AS MUCH. It’s not s**ual. Ask any vet if the love they have for the members of their platoon was like that and watch their response.
          You’re never going to be able to have the same bond as her with him. Not that yours is less important. It just won’t have the same history behind it. And that’s okay. She likely has zero romantic feelings for him but is in the odd position of likely caring for him as much as you do, albeit in a different way.

          • Sloan Sabbith

            Also, I’m pretty sure any vet that was hit with shrapnel was at their least se*y afterwards, even with not a stitch of clothes on. Seriously. They were likely freaked out, in pain, and, if a dude, yelling “Is my junk okay?!” Not sexy.

    • Anon

      The fact that you know about him seeing her topless and her seeing him bottomless tells me you’ve been probing for way too many details. I’m sure this didn’t come up in causal conversation unprompted.

      No matter what you do, any man you partner with is going to be around other women – in an office, in a cop car, in the military. There are no situations were you can keep your man from spending time with attractive women.

      I think you need to do a lot of work on YOU and your trust issues and ridiculous insecurities before you’re ready for a serious relationship.

      • Anonymous

        Ridiculous insecurities? Since we’re telling people what to do, maybe you should work on your empathy. Maybe you are super confident and can’t relate, but I think a lot of women would have similar feelings in OP’s situation. It’s a little unusual.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t think you are being irrational. It’s a natural feeling that you have and so is wondering about it. Given their history I wouldn’t believe it when they say that nothing has happened. I agree with the person above who said that they don’t actually feel like brother and sister. I would keep my eye on them if I were you.

    • Anonymous

      You need to separate “she’s attractive” from “he would sleep with her given the chance.” Does he find her s*xually attractive? Probably. But that doesn’t mean he would sleep with her if given the chance (or she, him). Part of being in a monogamous relationship means controlling your attraction to people who aren’t your partner and not throwing yourself at every attractive person you meet. And quite honestly, if they’ve been working together for so long and nothing has happened, it’s very likely that he’s telling you the truth and he now sees her like a sister and couldn’t even imagine anything romantic happening. But, again, even if is attracted to her, he’s still an adult who is perfectly capable of controlling himself and not doing something stupid.

      Your BF hasn’t done anything wrong and it sounds like he has bent over backwards to make you feel comfortable about this situation. I really don’t understand your jealousy. Even if you don’t trust him completely (which is irrational, because he’s given you no reason not to trust him) this woman has a long-time partner and has had years to make a move on your BF without doing so – why do you think she’d suddenly do so now? If you want your relationship to survive, you need to figure out a way to move past this, period. And it’s entirely on you to figure out how you can do that – your BF has done more than enough.

      • MB

        Absolutely. People are human and most of them have working eyes. Other human beings continue to be attractive to them even when they are in loving, commitment, monogamous relationships. It’s on the individual to control his/her action in response to being attracted to someone other than their partner.

        There are several books out there about being an SO/spouse of a LEO. You might want to check one of those out. Being in a relationship with a first responder can be very different than being in a relationship with a lay person. If you are envisioning a future with this person, I really recommend that you explore what that life could look like for you. Especially, if you want kids.

    • anon

      Is your insecurity coming from a concern about emotional intimacy or an actual fear that he will cheat? As in, are you thinking to yourself, BF has this super emotionally close relationship with a woman and emotionally close relationship with someone of the opposite s!x = physically close relationship will happen.

    • Anon for this

      I worked probation and corrections and had both male and female partners. The relationship was truly different than any other work relationship because you are literally trusting that person with your life. We definitely loved each other but not in a sexual love way. Not really in a brother sister way either because my brother would have no idea how to help me out in a riot. It is a relationship like no other. If that falls entire emotional affair territory for you than you should get out now. That love will be there if the partner is male or female though. You might always feel like you are sharing him but again, it would be that way regardless of who the partner is. You might just not be cut out for a police relationship and that is okay too.

      And on the nakedness piece, I ripped my male partners shirt off of him when an inmate was choking him out by the back of his collar. I wasn’t thinking “nice chest” though we did make a joke about it when the danger was over. I was concerned with saving his life and I would have expected him to do the exact same thing for me.

      • Anonymous

        +1.

        I work in government for public health doing policy work, but before I came to public health I was a nurse working at a hospital, first in the ER and then for the infectious disease unit. I have seen so many people n*ked and it’s not s*xual at all. This is including seeing people I know who came into the ER after car accidents, shootings etc. When people’s lives are on the line, no one is thinking about s*x, no matter how attractive the person is. I remember an incident where one patient in the ER tried to throw a liquid on another and one of the security guards got covered instead. He said it burned and three of us nurses literally stripped his clothes off him because we weren’t sure if it was a chemical or what. Three young female nurses stripping the clothes off a male who was attractive may sound s*xy but trust me it was the furthest thing from it.

    • MargaretO

      I have similar friendships with some men in my life – not combat but lots of very intense shared experiences, some of them semi violent (I’ve lived in war zones). They are intimate. A really close friendship is a type of intimacy. I share experiences with them that I honestly don’t want to share with a partner because of how hard and difficult they were, in addition to lots of good and fun things, and periods of my life that I can’t go back to (like college). They are also absolutely 100% platonic. I love them so much but they are not romantic matches for me, if we had been then we would have gotten together years ago. We have cheered and coached each other through relationships and breakups and lots of other major life events. Some of them are partnered, and those whose partners like an accept me are still my really close friend. One in particular has a partner who does not like me and it has really influenced our friendship and put a lot of distance between us. I don’t have a ton of advice for you, I think this is an issue that you need to work on accepting on your own, but I can’t really say how you would do that. I just want you to hear my perspective. I really sympathize with your boyfriends partner as a cop/ex military woman because I have also been in a few situations where I was in the minority as a woman and formed close bonds with men in tough or intense things. I think you should trust your boyfriend. I think you should accept that he will have intimacy in his life that is different from the intimacy that he has with you, and that it will not replace or encroach upon the relationship you have with him. Honestly I think it will make for a better relationship for him to have people in his life who understand the parts of himself that you might not be able to identify with (and vice versa – we all have parts of ourselves that our partners won’t understand, and that is fine). I know that I will not ever have a partner who shares all of my life experiences and I am glad for that – but I still want to keep my friendships with people who do share those specific things with me, and a lot of them happen to be men.

    • nutella

      I agree with others that if it was going to happen it would have happened already. A combat relationship may not be comfortable for you and that’s ok. I think her attractiveness is a red herring to you. I’m guessing what is tripping your jealousy wire is that they have shared experiences that are also deep that you won’t be able to have with him because you did not serve with him in combat or in law enforcement. That’s ok. Think of it this way – he is probably grateful to have a friend that understands what he is going through because he/she has been there, too. And as a supportive partner, you should be glad for him that he has that friend, too. Remember that it is good for a partner to get fulfillment from many different people and not push that entire burden on one partner to be the friend you talk about deep stuff with, the friend you watch cheesy Lifetime movies with, the friend you run with, the friend who is in your profession and has ‘been there too’, the friend who has known you since childhood, the friend you admire and think of as a role model or mentor, the friend who gives you honest opinions about your hair, the friend who helps you change a tire in the rain. For many people, different people fulfill different roles and that is not only ok but can be a good thing. I would tell your partner that you want to spend more time with her (just like you would want to get to know any of your partner’s other friends) and suggest a double date. I bet you will see that while they are good friends that she is a good girlfriend to her guy and it will feel platonic to you.

      • Anon for this

        I’m the PO/CO above. You also WANT your bf to have close friends that he can share law enforcement issues with that is not you. Lay people do not understand and do not want to know some of the awful things they see. It’s like my friend who is a NICU nurse. She doesn’t talk with the rest of us about the babies she loses. The average person doesn’t want to discuss that over dinner. But it’s her day and she needs to vent too. So she goes out with the other nurses. You develop a bit of gallows humor overtime and usually only those in the same field really truly get it.

    • cbackson

      Is there any opportunity for you to spend more time with her? I think that would probably help. Others are correct that there’s a bond that they share that is just going to be different than your bond with your boyfriend, but that doesn’t lessen the importance of your relationship with him or the bond you guys share. I suspect that if you could spend more time with her, your comfort would likely grow exponentially.

      I have a very, very close male friend – I’m a “groomswoman” in his wedding later this year – that I’ve never had the slightest romantic interest in (that I remember…we have been friends since 6th grade and I feel like at some point in middle school everyone crushes on everyone else). I have always made a point of developing enough of a relationship with his girlfriends that I could happily sustain a conversation with them even if he wasn’t there; I’m more than thrilled that he has finally had the good sense to get engaged to a delightful woman that I’m super-psyched to spend more time with. You and she may never be friends – not for any bad reason, but because you may not have that much in common – but I bet if you bring that relationship closer to you, you’ll feel a lot more comfortable with the dynamic.

      I bet she’d like to know you better as well, to be honest.

      • Senior Attorney

        I second this. Lovely Husband’s attendant at our wedding was a female friend whom I didn’t meet until we had been dating for more than a year. I had heard things about her from him and others and I kind of had my back up and was ready to not like her and then when we finally met, OMG it was amazing and we are gigantic buddies now and she is nothing but 100% thrilled that LH has found somebody and is so happy. I feel like we are both on Team Lovely Husband and that’s a bond we share. So that’s something to consider.

      • Brunette Elle Woods

        I agree with cbackson. Your feelings are completely normal. It all depends on how you act and if you can overcome your feelings of jealousy. She does seem like a very nice person and she is covering for your BF so you can spend more time together! Someone trying to steal your BF wouldn’t do that. Try to get to know her better. I had an ex who was very good friends with an attractive female. We dated for many years and I never met her. It was always a red flag for me that I never met her. He never wanted to introduce me and she never seemed interested in meeting her good friend’s GF.

      • Sloan Sabbith

        I agree with this, too. You don’t need to be BFFs, but you both care about him deeply. He probably talks about you and she would like to meet you, too.

    • Honest question

      Sounds like this woman has landed a much bigger fish (ER doc), so what on earth would she want with your boyfriend?

      • Anon

        Because all women want to do is land a “big fish” and because he is a doctor he automatically must be better than OP’s boyfriend. Maybe the partner loves her doctor boyfriend for who is he is. Doctors can be terrible people and police officers great people. Or vice versa.

        (No offense meant to police officers or doctors or anyone else. But people are not better than anyone else because of their occupation)

        • Anonymous

          It’s a thing. I know two women who think this way. One almost broke it off with her fiance because he was talking about leaving medical school and she delayed the wedding until he actually graduated and got a good residency. The second secretly stopped using birth control when she started dating a doctor and is staying with him even though she is, not surprisingly, miserable.

      • oh brother

        Maybe because boyfriend has a *bigger fish* if ya know what I mean….wink wink. After all, they have seen each other naked and covered in shrapnel bits.

        EYE ROLL.

        JFC, part of me hopes you’re trolling, but then I’m left to wonder who has nothing better to do with her time than troll a woman’s workwear blog.

    • Huh

      I have lots of platonic guy friends that I describe are like brothers. I’ve had sex with all of them. Would I again? Absolutely not. About half of them cut me out once they get a SO who is uncomfortable and the other half tend to err on the side of just leaving that part of our history out. I never dated any of them FWIW. These are all 10+ year guy friends.

    • Nudibranch

      Take into consideration that as partners in law enforcement, let alone their military service together has engendered a huge amount of trust, lots of shared history, personal growth and life experience together. This is not a normal ‘business’ lets get lunch together buddy relationship. They need to be able to trust each other with their lives, and it seems that they do.

      I understand that you feel uncomfortable with their relationship, and its up to you if you can get around that. Can you look at it as positive in the way your boyfriend has an amazing friend who will protect his back with her life as necessary? That change of perspective might help.

      Would it help to get to know other partners/wives/husbands of law enforcement personnel? Is their a support group you can join? I feel like this camaraderie and intimacy is a law enforcement/military “thing” and while it may be new and uncomfortable to you, maybe talking to others in the same boat might help.

    • Anon for This

      I’m late to the game here, but I was also in the Army and had very deep relationships with men in my unit. There is something unique about the shared experience of military service that allows you to be awfully close to your co-workers. And my husband is a cop, and his best friend is a female cop. They are very, very close, and she and I have become close friends. Now that I understand their friendship a little better, I can’t imagine that they would be interested in each other; they are completely different people. But they trust each other and have each other’s back, and I’m thrilled that my husband has someone he’s so close to at work. Not every close male/female relationship is a thing. I probably felt similar to what you’re feeling when we first began dating, but after 10 plus years of marriage, I feel pretty confident that if anything were going to happen between them, it would have happened by now.

  9. Jen

    My sister is starting her first professional job after many years bouncing around. She’s a speech-language pathologist. Right now she’s doing her grad internship but it will transition to FT work.

    She’s 30 but has basically no professional wardrobe. I want to give her some stuff for Christmas. She also recently lost a bunch of weight (in a good way), so has very little to work with even in terms of basics. She told me she has black, grey & navy pants.

    What would you suggest (style or specific items) I look at? She’s a size 4/small and tall.

    Cardis? The Skirt? (I’m a little hesitant to buy bottoms). The Ponte Dress from LE + cardi? Any good basic tops?

    • Jen

      Budget is flexible but I’d like to keep it to “mall store” level quality, unless there is a compelling reason. She’s not a fancy girl.

    • Anonymous

      I would do all tops and let her pick out pants, since variety for bottoms matters less. Maybe you could also concentrate on a palette so they go together, and pick colors she looks good in, maybe with a couple of necklaces. I’m thinking Loft because it’s cheap if she wants to start shopping there and they have talls.

    • Veronica Mars

      I’d get her stuff from Talbots with the understanding she can take stuff back and exchange if it doesn’t fit. They have a really good selection of tops, shells, bottoms, skirts, etc. I’d also get her a Halogen cardigan in white, black and gray from Nordstrom’s (#566448–looks like they don’t do it in white, maybe gray, black and navy)

      • SF Lawyer

        I would be absolutely thrilled if someone got me four pieces that all coordinate with black pants – maybe two tops/shells and two cardigans/jackets – that I could mix and match. Add in a piece of jewelry or a scarf that works with everything, and I’d be thrilled. (This is basically what I have always wanted for Christmas!) I think you could easily do this at many mall stores.

    • Anonymous

      I’d do a slim pant in a couple of colors – maybe pixie pant from JCrew and a couple of blouses? If she’s working with kids, pants will be more practical but still appropriate if working with adults.

      I find LE tall fits big. I’d stick with JCrew tall.

    • Anonny

      I would get her a gift card from somewhere and tell her youd like to take her on a mini shopping spree. I think places like Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, etc are neutral in terms of being stylish yet practical and pretty much anyone can find something nice from there.

      • Jen

        Ideal I would but that’s not a practical option for a bunch of reasons. I considered just a GC but she doesn’t have the time or energy to shop either. And even if I could get her to go to a personal shopper, there isn’t a Nordstrom anywhere near her.

    • Bonnie

      If she works with kida, skip skirts and pants. You could get her tops to wear with the pants, fun necklaces to jazz up the basics, or shoes that are comfy but functional. Our son’a speech therapist dresses casually but it’s zing.

    • anon anon armani

      I’ve worked with a lot of SLPs in my career. They tend toward business casual. Tops, skirts, slacks. They also wear completer pieces at times; not necessary. I would say some cardis, nice scarfs, The Skirt, and ponte dresses would be perfect. If she’s working in a hospital or a clinic with kids, keep the items either machine washable or inexpensive enough as to be replaced regularly. Drool, spit up, etc. with some kids with speech issues. If she’s working with very young kids, then tops and slacks are better as she will be on the floor with them rather than at a table/desk. Congrats to your sister for completing her education and weight loss and to you for being such a great sister. I have taken my sister on a “what to wear to work” trip three times in her lifetime. It’s fun.

    • Jessica

      If you’re open to an experience, taking your sister shopping to a few of the higher end consignment stores could be a really great experience. This will allow her to get a variety of new to her clothes and likely quite a few more items that she might not be able to afford. Having someone come along who can give advice on work clothes and good feedback on items she’s trying on makes this kind of shopping more successful. I actually did this with my sister when she was finishing grad school and it was a really good time for both of us.

    • Compote

      The Express Portofino or Loft Utility tops are washer/dryer friendly, inexpensive, and come in a lot of colors/patterns. I’d get a few of those for her, they are great with skirts or pants.

      • Anonymous

        The Express editor pants are great too – casual but washable and for me at least a perfect fit

    • Anon

      My sister is a speech and language pathologist. One important thing to remember is that the clothes need to be washable and easy to care for. Whether she will be working with kids or adults, she will be working with humans, and humans are messy.

      Another consideration is whether she will wear a lab coat. My sister does some of her work in a hospital setting and wears the white coat. She doesn’t wear blazers or cardigans for this reason, but likes nice looking 3/4 sleeved or long sleeved tops.

      Another nice thing might be a comfortable but professional looking pair of shoes, depending on how much of her work will be on her feet.

  10. SD

    Has anyone ordered from Brass? I’m tempted to order The Pencil Dress. How is the quality? I want to focus on building up my wardrobe with high quality pieces that I’ll feel great giving a presentation in, and avoid ‘eh, I guess this will do.’

    • SD

      Also thinking about ordering The Pencil Skirt, but I’m unsure about the front slit… thoughts?

    • CX

      Terrible quality: the turtleneck arrived with a hole in it and the shift dress was paper-thin. I returned both.

  11. Serve as a reference or no

    I am being contacted as a reference about a former employee. While she was very good in a lot of ways, she also had a lot of baggage & drama. Things are a lot smoother in her area now that she is gone. I found out she was leaving my office when I was contacted as a reference for her, she never gave me a heads up. The reference check indicated that her job office was contingent on the reference check. Now, a year later, I am being contacted again as a reference. Again, she didn’t ask me in advance about listing me.

    I’m weighing declining to give a reference or being truly honest about her strengths and weaknesses.

    Thoughts?

    • Anon

      I would just say that your company policy is that you can confirm the dates she worked there and no more. In fact, that probably is your company policy if you read the fine print. No company wants to get sued for preventing a former employee from getting a new job.

        • Anonymous

          + 2 probably true and even if it’s not it’s the best thing to say. I’ve given off the record references occasionally for people that I 100% thought were incredible employees but I try to stick to verifying the position and dates worked and say that’s all I’m able to say. Most employers call mutual LinkedIn connections these days, I think they just call references to check a box for new hires sometimes. Don’t damage her chances if she didn’t do anything terrible.

    • Anonymous

      Is it s reference or a background check? One of my old employers thought I listed him as a reference when it was just an involved background check instead.

    • Anonymous

      Don’t give her a bad reference if you say she was “very good in a lot of ways.” What do you really have to gain by trashing someone’s reputation? Don’t be a jerk.

    • Jen

      What about simply not calling back? Usually when I’ve contacted references before, I call until I get one.

  12. Serve as a reference or no

    The employee has changed divisions within my institution.

  13. Anon

    In need of a recommendation for a good book/blog/podcast for a young attorney trying to better learn how to manage and work with her paralegal and assistant.

  14. Serve as a reference or no

    To follow up, the prospective job (she’s a finalist) is in another division within my institution.

    • Anon

      I think its fairly heinous to prevent someone who was ‘fairly good in a lot of ways’ from getting a new job if she had ’emotional baggage’. People grow and improve. This is a ‘if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all’ situation. If she was a terrible employee it would be a different story, but even then I would say reach out to the person and recommend they get a reference from someone more recent.

      • Anonymous

        And you are being asked about her professional capabilities, not her personal life, right? Focus on how she was/was not able to do her job requirements.

      • bridget

        Exactly this.

        The threshold for giving a bad reference or refusing a reference should be a bit higher than “had some issues” but was “very good in a lot of ways.” You aren’t providing testimony in front of the Pope for sainthood; you’re just saying that if this person is hired, she’s competent and won’t get the company sued, ditch work, or be unable to complete tasks as assigned.

      • Serve as a reference or no

        She left my office last year. She was a supervisor and her volatility was a problem that I tried to address with her several times. I also had several people outside of our division complain about her. On the flip side she was smart & a hard worker. But I would not rehire her.

        • Anon

          Look it sounds like you want the hive to say ‘yes its fine to tank her’. But the responses are ‘no its not ok to tank her’.

        • Jen

          If she’s still in your org, reach out. She might be required to have them reach out if it’s an internal move. In my org, it’s a condition of an internal move.

    • CHL

      I think the “not giving you a heads up” is key though – she’s okay but you worry that her weird drama and what I would describe as unprofessional behavior would reflect poorly on you if you give a good reference. I think you could express surprise that she listed you and ask about the requirements of the job. If it matches her good qualities, comment on that. If it’s clear that you have observed behaviors that make you think that she could potentially perform in a way that would reflect badly on you, frame it in a way that makes it about a bad “match.” It’s telling that she doesn’t have other references at this point…

  15. Baby Weight

    I’m hoping for some advice about baby weight, and I know some people don’t like these weight loss topics, so just a heads up!

    I’m heading into my last 8 weeks of pregnancy. So far I feel pretty good and I don’t feel like I’ve gained a lot of weight aside from my stomach. But the scale shows that I’m already up 25 pounds! I was about 135 lbs to begin with at 5ft7 so it isn’t like I was underweight or anything. I know 25-35 lbs is the recommended amount, but I have so so many friends who gained less than 20 and my mom is so tiny and I keep hearing about how she gained no more than 18 each time.

    Any advice on how to 1. Keep the excessive weight gain in check for the next 2 months (I have a big sweet tooth so I’ve been trying o have a cup of skim hot chocolate to satisfy it) 2. Be reasonable but diligent about eating well while hopefully breastfeeding to get a jumpstart on the weight loss and 3. Ease back into an exercise routine once baby is here (I have a gym in my house, so I’m thinking Kayla Itsines BBG or Tracy Anderson videos).

    While some of this is vanity, I have 5 months after baby before I have to be back at work and my entire work wardrobe is basically size 4 fitted sheath dress suits. I’m client facing and looking sharp is an unspoken part of my job. I don’t want to have to get a new work wardrobe and I don’t want to feel frumpy and self conscious when I’m sure I’ll also have a million new things to think about as a working mom.

    Thank you!!

    • anon

      I don’t know what your workout routine looks like now or pre-pregnancy, but I highly recommend that you lift weights 3x/week. It’s a more efficient way to trim your shape than just cardio, and if the eventual goal is size rather than just weight, building some muscle can help.

    • Minnie Beebe

      As someone who gained 45 lbs during my pregnancy (was 120lb/5’6″), my recommendation is don’t worry about it right now. Get your rest, get some exercise, try not to overdo it on the christmas cookies (though carrot cake was my downfall.) My OB tsk-tsked me everytime I went in for an appointment, but I just ignored her on that. I exercised a fair amount through much of the pregnancy (mostly walking, lots) and ate healthy food, and it all came off by about 9 months post-partum. I’ve since gained back a “few” pounds, but that’s another issue.

      5 months’ leave sounds awesome! You’ll probably need to buy a few new pieces of clothing for those first couple months back after your leave, but it doesn’t have to be expensive stuff. Blazers will be your friend.

      • (was) due in june

        That was me. 120lbs, 5’6″, put on 45 lbs. I was back in some of my regular clothes by the time I went back to work at 4 months (my tops were all too small because nursing boobs) and almost all of my clothes within a year – my hips got wider and there ain’t no changing that.

        I also got official tsk tsk from my Ob, but she said that was because she had to yet given that I was eating normal foods and drinking a ton of water, she wasn’t actually worried about it. I was working a ton and never exercised. Most of the weight that wasn’t actual baby or amniotic sac felt like it was sweated out through weeks of night sweats (which is disgusting and one of those things no one ever tells you about) and nursing. I also hardly exercised (no gym) during maternity leave due to a difficult recovery.

    • anon

      1) Your body is going to do what it needs to do during pregnancy and nursing. You can help things by eating a reasonably healthy diet, drinking plenty of water, etc. but for the most part, you are just along for the ride. If the numbers are freaking you out, turn around when they take your weight and ask them to only mention it if the gain becomes worrisome and they think something else is causing it. Your pregnancy is your own and you can’t really compare it to what other gained and didn’t gain.
      2) Your body is going to change and sometimes these changes are permanent. My ribcage expanded during pregnancy and never went down. Even when I lost all the weight, those bones didn’t move. So be flexible about what that means for your wardrobe and don’t view it as a failure. If those dresses don’t fit, find some inexpensive pieces to tide you over and make you feel confident until you can evaluate what’s next.
      3) Post partum, take the necessary time to heal. Follow your doctor’s/midwife’s advice on resuming activity. That home gym isn’t going anywhere. You probably won’t see the end of hormonal related changes in size/shape/weight until well after you are done nursing. That’s just biology.

    • Anonymous

      “I know 25-35 lbs is the recommended amount, but I have so so many friends who gained less than 20 and my mom is so tiny and I keep hearing about how she gained no more than 18 each time.” The fact that your friends were unhealthy is not a reason to be unhealthy. Please gain an appropriate amount of weight to protect your baby’s healthy. It’s normal to continue to gain at 1lb or more a week at this point. So expect that you may well put on another 10lb – this is normal and healthly. Emphasis on HEALTHLY. Healthy pregnancy weight gain is based on the baby’s health, it’s not a competition to see who can gain the least weight and still produce a healthy baby.

      “some of this is vanity,” – this is all vanity. Eat enough healthy food and be glad that your body is developing a healthy and strong baby.

      Buy a couple new dresses. If you’re planning to BF, you don’t be able to pump in sheath dresses. Buy a couple skirts to match your suit jackets and a few blouses to change up the look. You can’t diet in the same way if you BF because it will affect your milk. If you’re not planning to BF, don’t put pressure on yourself to fit into your old clothes. Pregnancy changes bodies. Your old clothes may not fit, even when you get back to your pre-baby weight.

      • Anon

        +1 to the last paragraph. If you are breastfeeding there is a high chance those dresses will not fit. I went up a full cup size and none of my fitted dresses (or tops) remotely fit.

        • (was) due in june

          I went up THREE cup sizes. It was a surreal experience.

          And now they’re down to smaller than before. Ha.

          • Betty

            Same here. Generally a B/C and I went all the way up to G, maybe even H. Crazy. I nursed for 2 years, and they stayed huge the whole time. Now… smaller than before.

          • TooHuge

            due in june and Betty: OMG. Tell me this happens. Please. How long did it take? I was a DD, got pregnant, got huge, levelled out at DDD after breastfeeding, and now, pregnant for the second time, am a G. I am thinking that since they never went down to pre-pregnancy size after pregnancy 1, I will be stuck with massive boobs forever. Or does it matter how long you breastfeed? I really, really don’t want to keep these monsters.

    • CPA Lady

      I say this as someone who is vain…. 25 lbs is nothing on someone who is 5’7. Don’t harm your or your baby’s health because you are being vain. I completely understand how scary it is to feel out of control of your own body, but you really need to just keep eating healthily, exercising moderately, and gaining whatever weight you and your baby need. Also, it’s not like you’re just gaining fat. I saw this chart that kind of breaks down what you are gaining:

      Baby: 8 pounds
      Placenta: 2-3 pounds
      Amniotic fluid: 2-3 pounds
      Breast tissue: 2-3 pounds
      Blood supply: 4 pounds (your blood supply increases something crazy like 50% while you are pregnant)
      Stored fat for delivery and breastfeeding: 5-9 pounds
      Larger uterus: 2-5 pounds
      Total: 25-35 lbs

      So you will lose ~10 lbs right away during the birth. Then, if you’re anything like me, you’ll spend the first week drenched in sweat, getting rid of a lot of the water weight. I lost half the weight the first week of my daughter’s life and the remaining amount over the next several months as my body gradually went back to normal-ish. I really liked the Bellefit corset girdle thingy. It was good shape-wear and helped me not feel all floppy in the stomach region while everything was moving back into place. I could wear all my work clothes by the end of maternity leave. Some things were just not comfortable anymore though.

      As far as old ladies telling you they only gained 18 lbs or whatever, yeah, people gained less weight a long time ago. They also smoked and drank through their pregnancies. We know better and do better now. And part of that knowing and doing better includes gaining a healthy amount of weight.

      • Anonymous

        It’s very helpful to think about the breakdown of the weight gain–if you are keeping it within the recommended range, only a small proportion of it is actual fat stores that stay with you after delivery. Also, if you are BFing and have a demanding baby, you may lose all the weight and then some right away. I was below my pre-pregnancy weight within two weeks after delivery, although my body never quite returned to its previous shape. I have never been so skinny in my adult life as I was while BFing. The child will literally suck the life out of you.

        If you can keep active throughout the rest of your pregnancy and resume light activity as soon after delivery as your doctor allows, it will help you feel better about your body, no matter how much weight you end up gaining or how quickly you lose it. Even long walks will help.

      • Betty

        Oh and if you do exercise, the increase blood supply is lovely. I have never been faster (a runner) than 8 months postpartum. I walked the last 3 months of pregnancy, starting walking around 5-6 weeks, and then running at about 3 months.

        • Jeffiner

          +1. None of the speedwork exercises I did as a runner were as effective as having a baby. Also, pushing the jogging stroller is an incredible workout. After training for a 5k while pushing the stroller, I practically flew through the race without it!

          • CountC

            I am always super impressed with the stroller runners! They are heavy with a kid in them! Holy cow.

            I ran a 3 mile up, 3 mile down switchback in February on rough gravel roads and a fellow racer did it with a STROLLER. Damn woman!

          • Anon

            ^Agree! Running with a jogging stroller is so much harder than I thought it would be!

          • Anonymous

            Is this a thing? I ran my best half marathon 6 months PP and I couldn’t believe it! I had signed up for the race about a month PP just hoping to finish.

            As for baby weight loss generally, I was also very concerned about having to buy new work clothes. I started doing myfitnesspal around 4-6 weeks PP and lost all 40ish lbs I gained and then some by the time I went back to work at around 6 months PP. It was kind of annoying and I wasn’t always super strict with it (especially on weekends) but it works. I set my calorie goal to 2000 at first to account for breastfeeding and then slowly dropped it over time to around 1700 and was still losing. (I’m 5’6 and weighed around 135 pre baby.) I found it pretty easy to stick to my planned meals, etc being home and away from any temptations. I’ve actually gained a few pounds now that I’m back at work.

            I remember at my appointment this time last year my doctor told me not to gain any more weight before my next appointment after the holidays. I ended up gaining 8 lbs (!!!), probably consisting entirely of holiday treats. woops.

    • Betty

      I would not focus on numbers right now, or for the first 6-12 months of your kiddo’s life. Focus on putting good food in and staying healthy and active. Your care providers will alert you if they have concerns about weight gain, and those are the opinions you should listen to.

      Keep up any exercise that you started, even a solid walk three times per week will keep your fitness level up, and that helps so much with birth. Once you have the babe, focus on getting BFing set for the first three months. After birth, you will have a wound to heal (uterus/placenta) regardless of how you give birth. Allow your body time to rest and heal. It takes 6-8 weeks. Once you are cleared to exercise, start slow. If you are BFing, let your production be a guide to eating and exercising. I was far hungrier while BFing than while pregnant. I found that I could not significantly cut calories without affecting my supply.

    • Jeffiner

      Have you been exercising so far during your pregnancy? I wouldn’t recommend starting something new now in your third trimester, but don’t give up everything you’ve been doing. I know you’re incredibly uncomfortable moving at all. Even if you can just walk more, it will help prevent extra weight gain, and give you strength and endurance for labor. Don’t compare your weight gain to anyone else’s. You do what’s healthy for you and your baby. If that means laying in bed resting and eating yogurt, so be it.

      I was told to not count calories during breastfeeding, because your body needs the extra fat and carbs and protein to make milk. I gained about 40 lbs during my pregnancy, and didn’t lose much at all while breastfeeding. Once I stopped breastfeeding (at 7 months, my milk dried up) and started counting calories, 60 lbs practically fell off.

      After you give birth, try to take it easy for the first couple of months. You have to heal first. I love running and going to the gym, but my first day home, I couldn’t muster a walk around the block. I still took the baby on short walks, and then longer walks, and after 2 months I was cleared to use the gym again. I started out on a “beginner” workout regimen, but quickly worked up to my normal routine.

      Even though I now weigh less than before I was pregnant, my body is not shaped the same. My hips are wider, my waist is thicker, and somehow my breasts are smaller. Some of my old clothes fit, some just don’t look as good as they used to.

      • ArenKay

        Agree with all of this, particularly the parts about your body not being ready for vigorous exercise right off the bat, and your body also changing even if your weight goes back to pre-baby levels. If it’s helpful, the book *Another Mother Runner* has a lot of useful info about how to manage exercise when you’ve got a kiddo, and a helpful (and very funny) breakdown of how much/little movement you can do week by week postpartum (for psychological reasons as much as physical.

    • nutella

      Hey I’m here to tell you that BBG is HARD and probably not recommended so soon after delivery. It is hard for people who have been doing it for a year. Tracy Anderson’s moves are a little less high impact, so that may work. Ultimately, don’t try to cheat and start exercising before your doctor has cleared you. It won’t help your body shape to start earlier than you should and could in fact hurt you. I would stick with brisk walking and focusing on eating well and hydrating and sleeping while you are BFing. After a couple of months you can move into low impact like pilates. My SIL is a fitness nut and even she followed doctor’s orders – eating well, walking a lot, and drinking SO much water.

    • FP

      I’m currently 5 months PP. I gained a solid 40 lbs with my pregnancy and if we’re being honest, another 10 lbs of pizza/cookies/crap eating while I was pregnant, working, and trying to finish grad school before the baby showed up. So, on the day of delivery, I was 50 lbs over my normal weight. I took it pretty easy after my c-section, but at 8 weeks after the birth I headed to the gym and started working with a personal trainer for weights and cardio. I am not counting calories at all, BF/pumping, and I’ve only got about 10 lbs to go. My goal is to be back to normal by 7-8 months which I think is pretty do-able. I also had ideas of fitting into my old work clothes when I came back to work at 4 months but the reality was even if I had lost all of the weight, my b**bs were about four sizes larger from nursing anyway – so none of my fitted blouses/dresses fit. You’re probably going to have to get a few pants/tops to get you through if you are planning on nursing and pumping. I shopped at Loft for a few items, spent about $200, and can still feel put together even though I’m still not in all of my old clothes.

    • Anon

      Nothing you can really do about it, try not to worry. I gained 50 lbs, lost 65 within 2 months of birth. I didn’t do anything unusual to gain the weight and didn’t do anything magical to lose it, just good genes (I guess?), 10 lb hungry baby, and being too personally exhausted to think about eating much for the couple of months PP. I’m now back to where I started and can wear most of my pre pregnancy clothes – my ribcage did widen slightly, but my hips did not (post partum girdle may have helped, it was very comfortable to wear, even with a C section.) Biggest problem with wearing clothes PP was my enormous nursing b**bs – 32G (normally a b/c) so I did pick up some more generous tops from target, but skirts and pants were fine.

      As you can see from this thread, it’s all over the map and you won’t know how your body is ultimately going to respond to anything.

    • Anon

      I haven’t read the other responses, but I will tell you what worked for me and perhaps some of this will apply to your situation as well.

      I am petite (pre pregnancy was 112 lbs and I’m 5’2″). I gained about 37 lbs all in with my pregnancy. I would have liked for that number to be a little lower, but whatevs. I have always been a fit and active person – I worked out about 3 times a week at the gym when I was pregnant throughout my entire pregnancy. I loved my prenatal workout class, we did a ton of stuff but all was low impact. I.e. tons of lunges, things on the stability ball, weights, etc. And then I did a fair amount of walking and non-running cardio (I ran until I was about 6 months pregnant and then it just felt weird so I stopped). I also eat pretty healthy 80% of the time and stay away from processed foods as much as possible.

      I had a c-section, and I started working out again when the doctor cleared me at 6 weeks. I just took it slowly and listened to my body. I also just kept up my usual healthy eating. You mentioned that you have a sweet tooth – I don’t mean to be facetious but just stop eating sweets. It’s not healthy and it will add on unnecessary calories.

      Breastfeeding sucked the weight off of me – seriously. I was back into all of my pre pregnancy clothes 3-4 months post partum. I actually got to a point where I was below my pre pregnancy weight b/c I could not stop losing the weight. So who knows, maybe this will happen to you and you won’t have to worry about it (although I worried about it on the opposite end of the spectrum – losing too much weight!)

      Keep healthy snacks around. Fruits, veggies, cheese (I freaking love cheese). I also think healthy fats help you stay full – I love having avocado with my eggs in the morning.

      Stay as physically active as possible. Walk when you can, go to the gym when you can, work out at home when you can. Just listen to your body. If something hurts or feels uncomfortable, ease back a bit.

      Also, I am not sure if this actually helped my stomach shrink, but I wore a bellefit (it’s like a post partum binder/corset thing) after I had my baby and I swear to goodness, my stomach was almost flat like 2 weeks post partum. But I do not have anything to compare to (like I don’t have a post partum experience where I didn’t use the bellefit) so I don’t know if it’s b/c of the bellefit that my stomach shrunk so fast.

      Good luck and congratulations on your upcoming little one!!!

    • Mrs. Jones

      25-35 lbs. is nothing to worry about during pregnancy. It’s normal and healthy. Don’t let vanity tell you otherwise.
      But I wouldn’t count on being able to fit back into your previous clothes, so prepare yourself for that.

    • Anon

      With my first, I gained 55-60lbs. It took 6 months before I could wear all my pre preg clothes, but mainly, it was the pants. My hips widened and it took a long time to get the pants buttoning again. By 7 months I was back to my prepreg weight. With this baby, I had to stop eating all milk/soy products so that helped get rid of the weight!

      Second baby, I gained 61lbs. I’m 4 months PP and have 15 lbs (all in my hips/butt) left to get to PP weight: I’ve been losing a steady 1-1.5 lbs/week by sticking to a fairly healthy-but-normal diet and no exercise other than chasing around 2 kids. I’m BFing, so that helps as I haven’t increased my food intake to make up for the extra BF calories.

    • Yeah

      At first glance I totally thought you meant like weight you still had from being a baby. Yup. It’s Friday folks. And I’ve had 3 kids.

    • Anon

      Get a girdle or other body wrap to wear after the baby is delivered for the first 8 weeks. The hospital typically gives them to C-section mothers, but don’t be afraid to ask your OB for one before you are discharged. Also, see if you can get a post-partum massage within the first 6 weeks of delivery. Friends swore the combination of the girdle and massage helped their hips and rip cage get back to normal size. While it took me awhile to get down to pre-baby weight (8 months), I noticed a huge difference in my body after my first baby and recovering after my second baby by using wrap and getting the massage (though I would have gotten the massage anyways to alleviate the hip/back pain as my son was over 9lbs and was low for weeks before delivery).

      If you plan on pumping when you go back to work, you will want to wear nursing friendly clothes and dresses are a huge pain.

    • P

      This is a little late, so I hope you see it — I gained more than the recommended amount, too. I think I had gained 30 pounds by the end of my second trimester. I am almost exactly your size. I lost it all no problem, just from nursing. I think some people naturally just gain more weight during pregnancy, just like some people naturally gain less. Especially since it sounds like you had a great metabolism going into the pregnancy, don’t stress about this. Doubly so if you are breastfeeding. There is no hunger like a breastfeeding woman’s hunger. I literally couldn’t eat enough to keep up with the calories I was burning.

      Also, it took me about 9-12 months to get back to my pre-pregnancy size. After the baby comes, give it time!

  16. Dinner Ideas

    I’m working from home today. I’d like to cook DH and I a yummy dinner (I don’t usually get to do this during the week!). Any recipe inspiration for something on this very cold December day? Bonus points if it’s moderately healthy…not at least not horribly unhealthy. TIA!

  17. MJ

    Head’s up that many house brand (Charter Club) cashmere sweaters are $49.99 at Macy’s today as part of their Sale of the Day. That’s closest to the lowest they get (sometimes they go down to 39.99, but usually lucky sizes/slim color selection). I don’t consider their cashmere high quality–it feels soft and looks nice for a while, but gets very badly pilled by the end of a winter’s wear. But it’s comfy, warm and looks really nice when it’s new. So, for “disposable” cashmere, I recommend. This is perfect if you want to get a gift that’s not too expensive for someone that looks nice, even if it won’t last forever. It presents well.

  18. Carrots

    Anyone have recommendations for great long johns for guys? BF requested some for Christmas.

    • ohc

      My partner (and I) really like the Uniqlo HeatTech. Comfortable, warm, not expensive.

    • Betty

      Patagonia silk weight are my husband’s favorite. He wears them both to work under suit pants and when we are out farming in cold New England.

  19. Kitties

    Random question for the cat owners: My cat had surgery ~3 weeks ago, and they shaved a section of her leg for IVs. 3 weeks later, she still looks pretty much bald there…is this normal? They also shaved a bit off her neck and that is growing back nicely. Just curious…she looks like she’s wearing an ugg boot right now :)

    • Bonnie

      It should come back. The hair on legs usually is shorter than on the neck so maybe grows in slower.

    • Carrots

      It took a while for my cats hair to grow back on her leg from when she had an IV in there. I was just looking at photos and one from about three weeks after the incident, she was still kind of hairless there. I would say about about 6-7 weeks after she was back to normal hair.

    • puppies

      It took 3-4 months for my dog’s belly fur to grow back in enough so it wasn’t noticeable. Literally comparing cats and dogs here but I wouldn’t be worried.

  20. not a grinch

    Jumped into my in-laws’ annual “Let’s get together on Christmas!” email thread yesterday to suggest that, given the current state of the world, we consider doing solely charitable gifting among the grown-ups.

    I just realized that perhaps the reason no one has yet responded is because there’s no good way to say “No, I want presents rather than donations in my name” in an email.

    Anybody else angling for a minimalist or givethefuture holiday?

    • Anonymous

      I’ve dealt with this by shopping on metowe (dot) com or via ten thousand villages. People get gifts and organizations get support. Everyone wins.

    • anon

      Yeah, we don’t actually do gifts for Christmas because we just don’t want more stuff and there are many other ways to be thoughtful.

    • anonjustfor today

      Yes, yes, yes. We asked my husband’s large family to please forego gifts this year, including for our teenagers who need nothing and who get too much stuff. The responses were all, “oh, but we love giving gifts!” I am being Grinchy about this. Maybe it’s true; maybe they just want to keep getting stuff from us. We are the most financially comfortable of the bunch and I am sure we’re being thought of as stingy now. I hadn’t thought of asking them to give donations instead – but I won’t because I fear the donations would be to causes with which we don’t want to be associated. Efforts to downscale Christmas this year have failed.

      • Anonymous

        A good solution for this is to suggest specific gifts at the Smithsonian Store or MOMA store or other shops (e.g. local museum shop or zoo shop) that aren’t ‘political’ but that do good work and need public support.

      • Anonymous

        If the relatives ask your kids for wish lists (ours do), can the kids suggest charities in which they are interested? Memberships and animal “adoptions” may also be more palatable to the relatives, and more fun for the kids, than straight-up donations.

        • Anonymous

          National Wildlife Federation has a great shop. World Wildlife Fund has an ‘animal adoption’ thing were you get a stuffed toy version of what you’ve adopted. Jane Goodall has one where you can buy a stuffed toy like the one she brings with her “Mr. H. Junior Plush”.

          “Jane is super into giraffes right now and would love this (link) toy. ” Might be more palatable vs. straight up “let’s donate”

    • Anonymous

      A few years back one of my husband’s siblings suggested that we just end all gift-giving except for the kids. It was unanimously rejected by the other siblings, including my husband.

      Several years later he has changed his tune, and we have unilaterally decided that we are doing charitable donations as our “big” gift to each family unit within our extended family, accompanied by a small tangible gift for each family to open plus tangible gifts for the kids. In past years we have made a Big Huge Deal over how much we LOVE gifts such as museum memberships whenever we receive them, which has prompted family members to start giving us more of those types of gifts.

      • Anonymous

        P.S.: Our chosen charity for this year is Heifer, partly because it sounds fun to “give” or “receive” a goat.

    • SD

      I think you can request that for yourself, but I can imagine being really put off if someone suggested that in a thread, precisely because they probably do take joy in getting and exchanging actual gifts with their loved ones but your suggestion makes them feel bad about that. There’s nothing wrong about wanting to exchange gifts. It’s hard to know based on this brief post, but I think there’s a decent chance you came off as smug and sanctimonious… in which case that’s a faux pas (especially since it’s your in-laws!) and you should probably try to smooth it over. YOU can donate all YOU want, but don’t guilt other people into it.

        • Anonymous

          Disagree. I’m so tired of ‘stuff’. I don’t want more martini glasses when I don’t drink martinis, or cashmere throws or earrings or leather gloves or candles or slippers or gift cards that I’ll lose before I spend them or books that I don’t have the time or interest to read.

          Just like it’s not rude for the in-laws to want to give gifts, it is not ‘smug’ for the OP to want something other than ‘stuff’ for Christmas.

          • BPT

            And that’s fine for you. You can request charitable donations made in your name for your gifts. You can give charitable donations as presents if you want. But you don’t get to go in and make that decision for everyone, especially when there’s not a very good or polite way of turning down that suggestion.

          • SD

            Right but she didn’t say “I would love charitable donations in my name,” she suggested NO ONE give or receive gifts in a way that implies you’re a bad person if you don’t like it.

          • nutella

            Please tell me someone else saw the hilarious SNL short about the candle that is gifted all around the world!

      • BPT

        Exactly. Plus, people who don’t want “stuff” can still get experiences or something. If you want donations made in your name that’s one thing, but even charities are so fraught with controversy that you could easily offend someone with that (and not just that someone doesn’t like Planned Parenthood or a more political foundation, but some that seem good on the surface, like the Komen Foundation, really aren’t. If someone gave a donation in my name for that thinking that I’d like it, they’d be very mistaken.)

        I love giving people gifts. I’m good at it. If someone doesn’t want to get me a gift, that’s fine, I don’t mind. But don’t take away one of the things I love about the holiday season (and one of the few things I’ll like about this year) by trying to make everyone do it your way.

        ESPECIALLY with in-laws. That wasn’t your place to begin with.

        • cbackson

          Yeah, I LOVE giving gifts. I don’t care at all about receiving them, but I get so much pleasure out of gift-giving.

        • Anonymous

          How do you know you’re good at it? Not trying to be snarky, genuinely interested as I have an old college friend who is a lovely person but super into gifting for every occasion (Valentine’s, Easter etc) but not actually good at it – like, yes I have a beagle but I don’t want a beagle mug for every season. She confuses enjoying gifting with being good at it and I’m struggling with how to explain to her the difference in a way that isn’t offensive because she’s super sweet.

          • BPT

            I mean, other than people telling me directly that I’m good at it (which I know could be people just being nice):
            -I’ve overheard my brothers telling their friends that I’m really good at gift giving (in a “it’s so hard to buy for BPT because she always gets us the perfect present” kind of way).
            -I have a really good memory, so it’s not uncommon for me to remember that a friend or family member said 11 months ago that they’d really like this specific thing or to try this experience, so I get it for them.

            Sure, some people are harder for others, but in general it’s really knowing people and knowing what they’re into.

        • Thistle

          +1
          Don’t generally give during the year but DEFINATELY do Christmas and have stated I won’t do secret santa or the equivalent. My choice. I get a Lot of pleasure shopping and giving and I’m not giving it up.

      • lawsuited

        +1 Ideally gifts are focused on the needs/wants of the receiver rather than the giver. If you’d prefer to receive charitable donations in your name then I think it’s fine to express that to family and it would be gracious of them to take that into account when choosing your gift. But giving a charitable donation in someone else’s name in lieu of a gift because you’ve decided that person doesn’t need a gift and a charity deserves your money more is not going makes the giving a lot more about you than your family.

    • BT

      I’m generally into minimizing the stuff in my life, but I think there is something nice about giving actual gifts to the people in your life. It doesn’t have to be an electronic worth hundreds of dollars. But throughout history, humans have given gifts to others in culturally appropriate ways. I don’t want to take that out of my life. I’m all for scaling down, but writing checks is not the same.

    • MNF

      We took advantage of black friday and cyber Monday sales to do a lot of our Christmas shopping, so this suggestion would be way too late for my family. Perhaps they’ve already purchased presents?

    • Eager Beaver

      I think the problem might be your phrasing. At least what you’ve written here suggests that any disagreement would mean that one wasn’t as concerned with “the current state of the world.”

      I’m comfortable with my level of charitable giving this year despite the fact that I still want to exchange Christmas gifts with my small family. Not everyone who enjoys gift exchanges does so because “they want presents.” I get a lot of joy out of finding the perfect gift for my family members, and I’ll admit that I also get joy out of receiving thoughtful gifts (one such thoughtful gift might be a donation to a charity I care about).

      I probably wouldn’t appreciate it if my sister-in-law, who doesn’t have any clue about what money and time I have already donated to charity this year, dictated how I shop.

      • Anonymous

        I would love to give up gift-giving because it is not a source of joy for us. We stress over finding the perfect gift, and then the recipient doesn’t really like it anyway. In return, we get cr@p that won’t fit in our house and goes to the Goodwill on December 26. We have shifted mainly to consumables for this reason, but it would be nice just to drop it altogether.

        • Eager Beaver

          I think that’s totally fair, and I would receptive if my sister-in-law (insert any other relative) just said (in November) “Hey, can we try something different this year.”

          • SD

            I think it would have been fine if she said early on, “Hey, what does everyone think of [this idea]?” and really made room for people to say that they love gift-giving. Instead it sounds like she put them in a double-bind where no one wants to step up to the plate and say no, for fear of looking bad. That was not nice of her, especially considering this is the family she joined and not her family of origin so she should probably be extra considerate of their traditions.

    • Sydney Bristow

      My siblings and I normally draw names but this year we looked at adopting a family. We couldn’t find a way to do that without going through an organization I refuse to support so we’ve decided to donate to the nonprofit that my brother serves on the board for. All our donations this month are being matched by another donor.

      It’s not going to be a totally present free holiday. Our parents still buy us things and we buy for our parents, but I feel good about doing a mix of that and donations.

      • Anonymous

        Do you mean adopting a family locally or internationally?

        For international – Plan International is a great organization.

        For local, many single parent associations have sponsorship opportunities at Christmas.

        • Sydney Bristow

          We were trying to do it locally and could only find the 1 option. We were googling pretty broadly, but I’ll keep in mind the single parent associations for next year if we do it again.

          Oh and OP, my sister is the one who sent an email suggesting this around the same time that we normally start emailing about how we are going to draw names or do some other type of exchange. We had adopted a family a few years ago through the organization that I don’t support so it wasn’t completely out of the blue for us.

          Personally, I love getting gifts for most people. I love trying to figure out what it is that they’d really like. I think a lot of my family feels the same way. Buying gifts for our nephew has become a fun competitive sport among my siblings as we each try to get him something that will clearly be his favorite. I like getting presents but am fine if we decide not to do that. Perhaps your inlaws are similar or are just reluctant because your idea came after they’d already shopped or because it seems to have come out of the blue. Who knows. Hopefully you’ll get some feedback from at least some of them to figure it out.

    • Anon

      Can you be in my family please? I really love that idea. I don’t want stuff and would love to see that money go to good causes

    • not a grinch

      There was a clarifying comment from an OP a few days ago in which she said that she so often sees threads in which relevant details are omitted from the initial post and only added after a flurry of comments–I totally know how she feels!

      For those who are concerned:
      +My husband’s entire family has limited grown-up gifts to consumables or experiences for several years now, because we all agree we don’t want more stuff.
      +We all went out drinking together after the election to commiserate. We are in agreement about the state of the world.
      +We’ve kicked around the idea of charitable giving before but never really dug into it, so this wasn’t a new notion.
      +My question was “Are we sticking with consumables/experiences? That seems to have worked really well. Given the current state of the world, we’d also be up for going totally charitable if others are keen.” I really don’t read that as either smug or sanctimonious in this context, but as I mentioned in my original post, it *is* hard to reply to!
      +The idea that in-laws shouldn’t be a source for new traditions is fascinating to me! In both my family of origin and my husband’s family, the in-laws are regularly the ones who suggest new things that people get excited by. (Cf my husband surprising my mother with a huge platter of oysters at Thanksgiving.)

      Anyway, happy gifting to all, if that’s your jam.

      • Scarlett

        FWIW, I’ve tried to get my family on board with less gifting/charity/etc. and it never went over well. It actually took someone pointing to the love languages here for me to realize that my family’s love language is giving gifts. So I’ve backed off & just go with it now.

      • Sydney Bristow

        I wouldn’t stress too much about it in this case. It sounds like it has barely been 24 hours yet. Sometimes my family is super fast about responding to emails and sometimes they aren’t. Hopefully you’ll hear something back soon.

      • SD

        Context is everything!!! The way you phrased it here sounds totally polite and legit, and I assume people haven’t responded because everyone wants to see what everyone else wants to do; no one wants to be the first to make a call for or against your suggestion. I bet as soon as one person breaks the seal, you’ll get a flurry or replies in agreement.

        Go reread your original post and I think you’ll see why people (myself included) interpreted it the way that we did :) This is also a good reminder for me that internet posts are generally lacking a good bit of context and tone, so withholding judgment is key!

      • SF Lawyer

        Your email sounds lovely and not sanctimonious or smug. This was a tough issue for my family as well – not because people don’t like charities, but because for whatever reason, it’s hard to switch from physical gifts to what are effectively cash transactions, even with charitable donations. We tried it one year and then the next year, we silently all went back to regular gifts.

        I know that the stuff is a problem, and that this is a conundrum. I think your email was worth a try.

    • nutella

      I think it may have been the tone or method by which you did this – “jumping in” on an already existing thread? It might have come off as an outsider changing things up or sanctimonious or who knows.

      My family goes big with Christmas gifts, but we aren’t a huge family. My soon-to-be in-laws are a bigger group and their longstanding tradition is distributing a wishlist to each other and they each decide who will get what. Now that I am part of this family too, this method at least cuts out the needless cr@p (like those smelly lotions from TJ Maxx that you just regift) and gets you what you wanted. The list is usually smaller and random items like I am asking for a desk humidifer and a waterflosser. On my side, we don’t do birthday gifts and my side is much smaller with a lot more spending money. (That being said, we may be moving to a no-gifts tradition soon because we already have everything we want.)

  21. Curacao

    The trip isn’t until next September, but it’s for a cousin’s destination wedding, and I will be seeing her and the other cousins who will be going next week for a different cousin’s wedding. Plus, I am in dire need of things to think about that make me excited for the future instead of anxious about politics.

    So, has anyone been to Curacao? What activities would you recommend and which are overrated? I’m really looking forward to the Caribbean slave trade museum, Christoffelpark, and the “floating” market. I’ve never done a tropical/beach vacation because (as indicated above) I prefer museums or hiking to laying on a beach. But my son will be 2.5 by the time this trip happens, so I’m thinking some relaxation will also be very welcome at that point. DH doesn’t like to travel, so I will have a lot of independence in making my daily plans, and my cousins are all way more athletic and not so interested in history and architecture, so I will probably end up exploring on my own quite a bit.

    Thanks in advance!

  22. Anon

    Can some Anglophile explain to me why Diana was Princess of Wales but Kate is only a Duchess? I was trying to read about this but I’m only finding the facts and not the explanation.

    • Carrots

      Because William isn’t the Prince of Wales yet – it’s still Charles. And, actually, William will not automatically become the Prince of Wales when Charles becomes King – it’ll have to be appointed to him and I don’t know what the timeline for that would be.

      • Anon

        So Wales is the only place you can be “prince of” rather than “duke of”?

        • Anonymous

          No, and Will is technically still Prince William and Kate is Princess William, but by convention they don’t use those titles.

          There’s also Prince and Princess Michael of Kent, princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York, and Prince George and Princess Charlotte of Cambridge.

          • Carrots

            This. There are other places you can be a prince of (example, Monaco is a principality versus kingdom, so Albert is a prince, never a king). Also, Camilla is technically Princess of Wales as well, but out of respect, she uses Duchess of Cornwall, the next highest designation of Charles.

            Also, Catherine isn’t a Princess yet because William’s Prince designation comes from his birthright, not his title (versus say Beatrice and Eugenie who are born princesses).

            I’m weird, I know.

    • Anon

      I think it’s because Diana was married to Charles and Kate is married to Charles’ son, and thus second in line for the throne. The men have different titles so their wives do as well.

    • Anonymous

      Diana was already part of the nobility (this is also what made her an acceptable bride for Charles) so she was elevated in title per tradition from Lady Diana Spencer to Princess Diana. Her brother inherited her father’s title and is Earl Spencer.

      Catherine was a commoner without a title of her own so she was given a lesser title (Duchess), although, it was also announced that she may also be referred to as Princess. So they are both the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Prince William and Princess Catherine.

      Similarly, Camila Parker Bowles was made ‘Duchess of Cornwall’, but she is not referred to as a a Princess.

      • cbackson

        Diana was not “Princess Diana,” technically. She was “Diana, Princess of Wales.” It is a slight, but meaningful difference – Kate’s title, similarly, will be Catherine, Princess of Wales. The comparison is to a “born princess,” like Princess Beatrice or Princess Eugenie.

        Camilla’s status as Duchess of Cornwall has nothing to do with her parentage – Princess of Wales is courtesy title for the wife of the Prince of Wales, regardless of her lineage, and Camilla is Princess of Wales but does not use the title (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmhansrd/vo050404/text/50404w42.htm). Even if Kate was not made Duchess of Cambridge, she would be the Princess of Wales on William’s assumption of the role.

    • cbackson

      “Princess of Wales” is a courtesy title for the Prince of Wales’s wife. Camilla is Princess of Wales, but doesn’t use the title.

      Prince William is called “Prince William” because he is the grandson of Queen Elizabeth and son of the Prince of Wales. However, the spouse of a prince does not become a princess simply by virtue of the marriage in many cases. In fact, when Prince William does become Prince of Wales, Kate will still technically not be “Princess Catherine,” but rather “Catherine, Princess of Wales.” She would only be “Princess Catherine” if she were herself entitled by birth to use the title of princess. “Princess Diana” was actually an incorrect way of referring to Diana, who was technically “Diana, Princess of Wales.”

    • EM

      In a kingdom, the titles of Prince and Princess refer to children of the monarch. In a principality, they refer to the ruling head of state. In a monarchy, prince and princess are honorary titles; in a principality they represent sovereignty.

      Wales is a principality underneath the umbrella of Great Britain. Thus, the title of “Prince” is conferred upon its symbolic head by the monarch. Charles was born “Prince Charles” but later given the title of “Prince of Wales.” In that case, the two princes are different. Because Diana was married to Charles she became the Princess of Wales. She was not born a princess, so she never really was Princess Diana. The more correct term would actually have been “Princess Charles.”

      George V’s grandsons were Edward and Michael. Because they were sons of sons they got the title “Prince.” When Edward became of age, he was given the title of “Duke of Kent.” Thus he became Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. His younger brother is simply Prince Michael of Kent. Duke is a higher rank than prince, in this case. Michael’s wife, Marie Christine, is known as Princess Michael of Kent.

    • anon

      I believe if you’re not nobility you can’t actually be a prince or princess.

    • nutella

      All these reasons- Charles is still Prince of Wales and William will not be so until Charles takes the throne and grants the title to him. Incidentally, before he was married he was simply Prince William of the House of Windsor. When they were married, the Queen issued the title of Duke and Duchess of Cambridge to them. Now he is Prince William, Duke of Cambridge. She is now Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge. Last names are not really done for British royals (though they are “of” houses) and titles are fluid. Also note that when Queen Elizabeth II had Prince Charles, she was still Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh because her husband was made Duke of Edinburgh, abandoning his title of Prince of Greece and Denmakr) before they married by her father.

  24. Ina

    Where to go for a beach vacation in February from NYC? Quick-ish flight. All inclusive is welcome and water must be great for swimming. Have enjoyed Samana, DR in the past. Have been to St Martin and Mexico and would prefer to not repeat. TIA!

    • Anonymous

      Turks and Caicos! There are non-stops from JFK and the beaches are so beautiful with warm water.

      • NYCer

        I would strongly recommend Turks and Caicos as well. Easy flight from NYC, easy transfer from airport to hotels, gorgeous beaches/water.

    • Anonymous

      You should subscribe to Scott Keyes’ travel alerts. I learned about him here, and while I’m subscribed for a summer trip to Europe, all the cheap flights to warm weather destinations are giving me some serious wanderlust!

  25. shaking things up

    Anyone ever quit a job with nothing lined up and traveled or volunteered for awhile? I’m feeling this urge to shake my life up a bit.

    Details: I’m late 30s, single, no kids. Have a lot saved and invested and feel relatively confident I’d be able to find another job in my industry upon return to my city.

    BUT. I am also a creature of routine, financially responsible, and the farthest thing from spontaneous. So it’s possible this dream is not really for me.

    Since I imagine there many others here who have similar personality types, I’m curious to hear from anyone who did this kind of life shake-up. Was it all it was cracked up to be, or did you wish you had just stayed at the stable job? Or if you didn’t do it and wished you did, did the “what if” wondering drive you crazy?

    • Anon

      They say no one on their death bed wishes they’d worked more.

      Are you confident that it won’t be hard to explain the break when you return to work?

      Are you truly comfortable that you’re on track to save for retirement with no one else supporting you? (Consider increasing costs of healthcare and lengthening life expectancies when you answer this)

      If yes to both then go for it.

    • January

      I understand the impulse (I’m about 5 years behind you). I wonder if you could take a 2-3 week vacation as a first step, to see if that would satisfy your urge to shake things up, without completely upending your life.

    • Anonymous

      No.

      I was in your shoes and took my walking papers from BigLaw (after the speech — you’re not going to make partner and you’ve got 3 months to make other plans). I had two cross-country bar-exam required job offers though and told them that I’d be available to start after the July bar. I took the summer off, took the bar exam, and moved, but I had a good month off before starting to do some serious PT studying and some partying and some travel. It was awesome!

      But it helped that I had lined things up before my Rumspringa.

    • CX

      Would doing a structured program like teaching abroad for a year work for you? Are you in an industry that’s understanding of sabbaticals if you decide to return to that stability?

    • Anononope

      I quit my biglaw job the minute I had paid off my loans to take a one-year fellowship abroad. TL;DR I would definitely do it again, but would temper my expectations.

      I am a risk averse control freak, but one of the risks that scared me was wasting my life working with mean people and watching my relationship suffocate.

      The best part was that the fellowship allowed for a lot of travel (I was working just outside of a city with a major international airport, so places that would cost $$$$ to get to from the US were really affordable and the vacation schedule was unbelievably generous). I had saved up a decent chunk of money before I left and my partner and I used it to travel around that part of the globe. Amazing memories. Taking the fellowship was good too, because it didn’t look *as* flighty as just “quitting my job to travel.” It was a bit more prestigious than your typical “teach english abroad” gig, and it arguably helped my career a little (I work for an international company now, and having the fellowship on my resume shows that I am confident in international settings) but not much. I had hoped it would quickly shift into a career in a related field, and it did not. But another positive of the fellowship was that it grounded me somewhere — we had a home base where we left our stuff, where we learned how to grocery shop, and where we had friends.

      The downside was that the fellowship barely paid my expenses. When it ended and I came back to the US we were broke as a joke. We relied on our family for a bit for a place to crash, and thank goodness my partner has a career where it’s easy for him to find work, because it took me a while (doc review, writing briefs at an hourly rate, etc.) to get back into a job that looked like a career.

      But I have all of these albums I printed of the places we stayed, and it makes me so so happy to flip through them and remember our adventures. Traveling can be so exhilarating and humbling, and I am just so happy we did it.

      • Anononope

        A few further thoughts (as though I haven’t already written enough)!

        If you don’t own a house, have a partner or kids, have ailing relatives, etc., go now! It gets harder to be away.

        A lot of my colleagues left big parts of their lives/hearts back in the states, and they had a lot more trouble enjoying the year away. Some spent all that vacation time (and basically their whole salaries) flying home to see boy/girlfriends, or to plan a wedding. I would say they got a lot less out of it than we did.

        We had planned to go home ‘the long way,’ stopping in a few countries on our way back after the fellowship ended, but my grandfather died so we cancelled that and just went straight home, and honestly it was a relief. I was beside myself with joy in the Milwaukee airport, speaking English to a bartender who served me a salad I could eat, and chicken fingers! A year was my limit.

        • Anon

          Four years ago I lost my job in a massive layoff. I was in my early 50s, with no kids, and a stable partnership and financial situation. I took six months off. I spent time with my grandma who was well over 100, healthy, and mentally sharp. I traveled internationally, in part inspired by a former colleague who lived abroad and helped me make great connections.

          It was one of the best decisions I’ve made. I took six months off and quickly got a great job when I resumed my search.

          Go for it if you can.

  26. Scarlett

    I just did something really stupid (& out of character) – I took 3 birth control pills in a row (I realized I’d missed 2 days, freaked out, didn’t google what to do & took 3). The regular internet is freaking me out – any stories of how bad will I feel today? Anything I can do to minimize physical reactions? (& I know, call my doc, will do that too).

    • Anon

      You’ll be OK, but might have some spotting. There’s no real risk to taking 3 pills – at 5, you’d likely see some period changes that month. Just keep on keeping on!

    • anon

      You’re fine, stop freaking out. I’ve done this many times. The worst that’s ever happened is my tummy was slightly upset and I needed to eat some crackers to get it to calm down.

    • Anon

      You’ll be fine! Plan B is just a massive birth control pill so if that’s FDA approved you’re all good.

        • Scarlett

          Dumb question (I still can’t believe I did this – I’ve been on the pill for 20+ years and have never skipped like this), but what are the effects of plan B? Should I expect a period? UGH – feeling so stupid here & thank you all so much for responding!

    • Jennifer

      Your stomach will probably hurt, maybe a headache or b**b tenderness. Use a back-up control method until you start a new pack. The rest of the effects will really depend on the exact kind you take.

  27. Anon

    I haven’t done this but I have to say I think you should do it. If you had a super niche job or no savings, I’d say no, but wow is this the opportunity of a lifetime. You’re in good health, you could do it, and it’s a rare thing. Go for it!

  28. Anon

    Question from longtime reader, rare commenter for help please – – A while ago (months?) Kat mentioned a Wolford sale – it may have been last year around this time. Does anyone know when Wolford might be having the next sale on opaque tights?

  29. anon

    If you were going to a wedding this weekend, where the ceremony and probably parts of the reception were going to be outdoors in approximately 35-40 degree weather, and the dress is cocktail attire, would you wear sheer hose (and if so, nude or black patterned) or black tights (hopefully on the dressy end)? My dress is black lace overlay, sleeveless, kindof like the style linked below but more a-line. I’m planning to wear a red coat and either black or red pumps. My thought is that tights will be warmer, but hose will be dressier and will look better with the dress. Also, I’m from a warm climate, and 35-40 degrees is cold to me.

    http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/bb-dakota-bristow-lace-sheath-dress/4509777?origin=category-personalizedsort&fashioncolor=BLACK

    • anon

      I’d go with solid black tights. Maybe even leggings that you could remove once you go inside. Sheer hose will not be warm enough to be outside for any length of time.

    • Baconpancakes

      I would wear tights. Preferably lined fleece ones. When you’re outside in near-freezing weather, you can wear whatever will keep you warm, and everyone will be huddling in their coats at this crazy outdoors wedding. I would wear knee high boots, too. And try to find a cute, coordinating hat.

      35-40 is cold no matter where you’re from!

      • OP

        Thanks :-) I actually own solid black fleece tights, purchased last year for a work trip to Chicago in January, so that saves me a shopping trip and the money I would have spent on new tights. I just tried them on with my dress, and it looks a little “off,” but I think it’ll look less silly than frostbitten toes.

        In fairness to the couple getting married, it’s unseasonably cold at the wedding location. Of course there was a risk that it would be unseasonably cold, but there’s a risk of weather issues at every outdoor wedding.

    • Anonymous

      Definitely tights. What is wrong with people?

      I’d also wear a hat, scarf, gloves, boots, and go inside immediately after the ceremony.

      • OP

        The wedding is in a location where 35-40 degrees is pretty unusual, even this time of year. The typical temperature range in December for this city is more 50s-low 60s.

        • nutella

          I still think that is temperature that people are uncomfortable being outside without a coat for extended periods (especially for women with dresses and not thick sweaters and jeans), so everyone would have still been huddled up in coats…

          If this is a location that gets those temps in December, then it is also a location that will have heat lamps. I would dress as warmly as possible for outdoors, try to sit next to a heater, or even stay inside if it gets worse. Heck, I would probably bring a blanket, too. Nobody is going to care what you are wearing outside.

    • Anonymous

      i’d double-layer regular black tights over fleece-lined black tights. Because who puts an outdoor ceremony in the middle of winter?

    • Brunette Elle Woods

      I wonder why they can’t move the ceremony indoors with heat! They must have had a backup plan for rain. Cold weather should bring all aspects of the wedding indoors.

      • OP

        Maybe you’re right. But this is DH’s cousin’s wedding. My only choices are whether I go and what I wear. Besides my dress and shoes, I have packed fleece tights, a cardigan, a coat, a scarf, and gloves.

  30. Tier 4 Law School

    Hey all. If you graduated from a tier 4 law school, I’d love to hear how your career is going after 5 or more years in the work force. I went tier 4 because it was full scholarship and 15 minutes from the house I owned with my husband (vs. the other schools I got accepted to which were mid-tier and more than hour away). At first I didn’t think my tier-4 degree was treated any differently than a top-tier degree. I had call backs at all 5 top firms in my state and was made an offer during the call back. Partners and judges would occasionally ask me why I didn’t transfer to a higher rank school and I would shrug it off as a sort of compliment. Other partners would say they don’t normally hirer from my school or wouldn’t work with people from my school and again I shrugged it off as a sort of compliment and just kept trying to work hard and smart. But now 5 years in, I’ve yet to find a sponsor who wants to help me get opportunities to grow and climb the ladder, while I see them do that for others around me. I’ve yet to find a place where I fit in and people are willing to give me a chance to do interesting, demanding work. I feel like my career has just stagnated into a puff, like a car on a 6 line autobahn that just ran out of gas. I rack my brain every day trying to figure out where I went wrong and how to fix it. Is it my degree, my gender, my age (law is a second career), my blue collar background, or just my personality. What have you experienced?

    • anon

      I doubt your degree is the problem here. Ime your law school only really matters when you’re getting your foot in the door. It might matter if you need to lateral, but again, that’s a foot-in-door issue. Once you’re working with people, your work will stand for itself. Finding a sponsor is just incredibly difficult.

    • Anonymous

      Finding a sponsor is really difficult. Can you add a certificate or post-grad diploma from a top tier institution?

    • CountC

      I went to a T-4 school that is well respected regionally, but doesn’t even register as a law school outside of the region/state.

      I don’t know if my situation will be helpful to you though, as I am not in a law firm or in a counsel role. I haven’t had any issues finding advocates in my offices (national ~500 attny firm, current large corporation) outside of a very toxic workplace where the vitriol has nothing to do with where you went to school or who you are (you just needed to be a woman working for the worst woman ever).

      I love my job now, am good at it, and have been told I have a bright future here. However, this company has also hired 6 people from my law school in both legal and non-legal roles so . . . again, probably not very helpful to you.

      I’m sorry you are having trouble!

    • anon

      It could be a lot of things, but I don’t think it’s your law school. I went to a Tier 1 law school, and the same happened to me. I saw other people who went to Tier 3 or 4 law schools get those opportunities I wasn’t getting. I would guess gender, age, or personality, or some combination of the three. (For instance, studies have shown that X personality/behavior helps men get ahead but not women–is that a gender or personality issue for a woman with that personality trait or behavior?)

    • New Tampanian

      What are we defining as T4? I never really paid attention and know I wasn’t at a T1.

    • Anon for this

      Maybe this will lead to a flame war, but I’m genuinely curious how a blue collar background can factor into professional growth. I just read Hillbilly Elegy and its comments on social norms and awareness are fresh in my mind. I’ve noticed some interesting “ahas” for my staff who are the first in their families to have a white collar job but it wasn’t something that I really felt comfortable talking about. I’m not sure how it shows up for you but would be interested in others’ thoughts and experiences.

      • anon

        I’m a first generation college grad/white collar worker. I work my ass off and am always worried about losing my job. I had to learn to say some words correctly when I first started out. I also had to learn how to dress, and I didn’t know a lot of etiquette (though I have to say, joining a sorority in college was the most helpful thing for this.) When peers talk about things they did growing up, like going to Europe, or attending big concerts, or skiing, it’s just not something I can relate to but I just nod and listen. My childhood vacations, if any, were in an old camper. These things do affect professional growth, but I think my work ethic is better than most, and that has offset most of the negatives. (plus, I’m smart. I’m not bragging about it. I got lucky in how my brain is wired, I guess)

      • AnonForThisToo

        That’s on my reading list too!

        I’ve seen it play out a couple ways. My partner is from a very rural part of the south. Sometimes he enjoys surprising people by upending their low expectations that stem from his accent. Other times, he can get a little (what I perceive as) paranoid and assume that people with brand-name educations from the Coasts are automatically looking down on him or assuming he doesn’t “deserve” to have done as well professionally as he has. We’ve occasionally had arguments about what I perceive as (minor) self-sabotaging behavior, but he views as rejecting elitist norms. Mostly, he rises to whatever challenges are thrown his way and writes off other people’s assumptions and their problems, not his.

        I also had a colleague who was first-generation-college who viewed all professional forms of decorum as oppressively-white-culture based. She’d yell inappropriate things in meetings, insult coworkers and clients near-constantly, and just generally constantly shoot herself in the foot. When counseled, she’d claim it was just “her culture” and was eventually fired based on performance. (It was a moderately diverse workplace.)

        So, to (admittedly) generalize, I think a blue collar/first-gen background can add to imposter syndrome and create a tension between professional and personal identities, which some people find ways to deal with and others don’t. If anyone has any tips for how to be a better ally in these situations, I’d be all ears! I know that I wasn’t particularly successful in convincing the colleague to play by at least some of the established rules or corporate behavior while “being the change she wished to see in the workplace,” but I’m honestly not sure what would have been a better tactic.

      • anon

        I went to a seminar on Implicit Bias and the white male speaker said after self-reflection, he had implicit bias toward anyone who didn’t have to work as hard as he did, or people that come from money. I realized I maybe am the same (first grad school attendee in my family of college educated teachers, didn’t receive any financial assistance from family, lots of siblings)

      • Tier 4 Law School

        I have to admit I never thought a blue collar background factored into my career either but then I read blue collar roots white collar dreams. I think the author drew some over simplified theories from some of his anecdotes, but there were some kernels of truth I recognized. For example, he said that people who grow up in blue collar backgrounds have a tendency to speak in a very direct manner and have no qualms about calling out the boss or questioning authority (because they don’t think the boss knows how it really works). In my early working years I displayed a form of those traits and it definitely didn’t glide the rails for me. I had trouble pinpointing why I thought and spoke that way and the book gave a credible explanation – in a blue collar background you just had to be very direct and aggressive to get what you want (food at the table etc) or it wouldn’t be there.

        • Tier 4 Law School

          I guess I should add that I’m also first generation college but not a minority – so that creates a very weird experience where it has been hard to find others that thought we had similar experiences. I didn’t meet another person who revealed they were a first gen grad until just this year (almost 20 years after graduating).

    • Brunette Elle Woods

      When they ask why you didn’t transfer, why didn’t you say “because I had a full scholarship”???? That would have shown that you were accepted to other school, but made a financial decision to not graduate with crippling debt. In my experience, what law school I attended really only mattered when trying to get my first job out of law school. After that, it was all connections I made. Try networking and being more active in local bar associations and within your community.

  31. Marriage and tax blunder

    Aaaaarrrg.

    Got married earlier this year. Just realized that I never submitted my tax paperwork to my employer to change my status from single to married…

    F——-!

    I’m not asking for tax advice, but any ballpark ideas on how big of a f-up this is, $$ wise? For context, I earn ~250K and my husband is ~50K.

    So, so annoyed with myself. Not what I wanted to be spending my emergency fund dollars on!

    • anon

      Doesn’t single get withheld at a higher rate? So you may have over-withheld. There are probably some online calculators out there where you can estimate your taxes and compare them to your withholdings. You can also play with filing jointly vs. separately since there is an income discrepancy.

    • Govt Mule

      Typically if your withholding is listed as single, your withholding will be greater than if it was listed as married. So you will have had more taxes withheld than if you had submitted the paperwork. If you have a greater tax liability it would be because of your change in marital status – not the failure to change your w4. Any over payment of taxes due to your withholding will be returned to you as a tax refund.

    • Cat

      aren’t you going to come out ahead here? The marriage penalty is largest when both parties have similar incomes, no?

    • Marriage and tax blunder

      Oh, and I probably should have mentioned that my husband is currently on income-based repayment for student loans, so we aren’t sure yet if we’ll be filing jointly or separately. My understanding is that if we file separately, he can keep his IBR, but my taxes will increase significantly.

      • Sydney Bristow

        He can technically keep his IBR even if you file jointly. His payments would then be based on your joint income, which would likely jump up to the highest amount (the equivalent of a 10 year repayment amount). If you file separately he’ll continue making IBR payments based only on his own salary. My husband and I file separately because of my IBR but our incomes are much closer than yours.

  32. AnonNY

    Say what you will about trump but I’m glad this market is loving his upcoming term. How can the 50% of the nation that invests NOT be happy?!

    • Anon

      If I look strictly at my investment and retirement portfolio, then sure, I’m happy.

      But I don’t wear horse blinders to go through life. Sure, my money is up, but I’m pretty sure that we’re all going to be in a worse position in four years, with respect to our economy, our global standing, our social structure, our stability etc.

      Then again, I’m also a super liberal g*n owner who does not care if my candidates promise to try and take away my g*ns…because at the end of the day, even if that happens, I’m cool b/c I’d rather we all have equal rights and healthcare.

      • Anonymous

        +1,000. From another liberal gun owner. Sure I’d rather see the stock market up than down, but I care more about people than money, so no, I’m not happy.

    • CX

      Hard to be happy when anti-Semitic hate crimes are occurring at your Jewish step-sister’s high school, your trans cousin is worried about his safety, your Muslim friends are anxious about potential registries, and you’re contemplating whether you should replace your IUD early in case this nonsense lasts more than one term.
      But, enjoy your money.

      • SC

        Actually, OP probably isn’t even enjoying her money. She’s enjoying looking at her money sitting in a bank and seeing that it’s up. If she’s investing for the longterm–which most of the 50% of the country who invests is–she’s many ups and downs in the stock market from actually enjoying her money. If you’re not selling your investments in the short term, then what the stock market does in the short term makes little difference. It makes much more sense to worry about job security, earning potential, and health care costs over the next 4 years because those affect how much you can put IN to the market and how much you’ll have if you ever want to retire.

    • EM

      Oh, investors are happy with the market performance.

      We just attribute it to the fact that the market is relieved that Trump hasn’t yet cause WWIII with his d*mned twitter account. Which is a very peculiar reason to be happy, you must admit.

      • nutella

        +1 fiance is in investments. It’s pretty widely agreed that the market is ‘relieved’ but you can also bet that serious investors are also battening down the hatches in preparation for some tumult.

    • Anonymous

      Because some of us normal folks who don’t like playing the stock market “game” and don’t have inside connections/guidance (the money making here makes me ill…..), and would rather buy a reasonable CD and/or save in the bank have been utterly screwed for living conservatively and hoping for interest rates that promote savings…… .. when we are working just as hard as the rich ones. Probably harder, actually.

      And my hard earned dollars are taxed higher than the fortunes you guys are earning in the market.

      It just. isn’t. right.

      • Anonymous

        Your money is working as hard as the rich people’s money. You need to invest like the big boys if you want to earn like the big boys.

        • Anonymous

          We don’t have the luxury. Most of you on this board live in a completely different world than the most of us.

      • Anonymous

        What isn’t right? I would say getting taxed on income from investment earnings is the real penalty because I already paid taxes on the earned income that went into the stock market in the first place.

        • Anonymous

          You don’t understand your own investments. This argument is totally wrong.

          You are taxed on the gains. The capital gains. That you earn by doing no actual work. Just watching your money grow in the market.

          So my 2nd job $ is taxed at a higher rate than the capital gains you make on your investments.

          • Anonymous at 2:44

            You are correct that I am only taxed on the gains. I understand capital gains, and those are paid to me as a result of my investment research and/ or luck.

            Your second job is taxed like your first job assuming they are both ” earned income”. That has nothing to do with my capital gains or investment income.

            My point which you seem to have missed is that my position is that taxing capital gains, that is investment earnings, is essentially double taxation since I chose to invest principle from my earned income instead of, say, blowing it on shoes.

    • nasty woman

      Because I’ve been grabbed by the p*ssy twice and there’s no amount of money that will make me forget that the president of the United States thinks that’s ok. Sure makes me feel like I’m fully human!!!!!!111

    • Not rich enough

      Sorry, reposting this so it appears under the correct thread.

      In a household Married Filed Jointly, with AGI of around $200k we just don’t make enough to really benefit under Trump. First, my income taxes might go down 1 or 2%, but not the 10-15% for the richer brackets above me. This also means less public services that everyone depends on. Second, my capital gains taxes might go up (not right away but its’ one of his proposals). Third, the republicans want to turn Medicare into a private voucher program (which means I’ll need to save even more for retirement to cover rising health care costs). Fourth, he wants to put a freeze on federal hiring, so I’m out of a job when my federal contract ends in a couple of years (because they won’t be able to renew under a hiring freeze). Fifth, his pick for Dept. of Labor Secretary wants to make it easier for highly educated foreigners to get jobs in the U.S. My husbands dept. in his Fortune 500 company is already swamped with HB1 Visas and likes to reorg (i.e. do layoffs) every couple of years, so he will be lucky if he still has a reliable job in 4 years. So, no, any increase in the stock market right now will not make me rich enough to offset all of this financial anxiety that is currently keeping me up at night.

  33. Income based repayment and marriage

    Has anyone dealt with getting married when one of you is on income based repayment? How does that work – if you get married mid-way through the year, and you decide to file jointly, do you owe the lender the difference in the payment for the remainder of that year in arrears, or just the following tax year and subsequent?

    • Sydney Bristow

      We deal with this. I have significant student loans and am on IBR. My husband has minimal loans on a 10 year repayment plan. When we filed taxes last year for the first time after our marriage, we ran the numbers as filing jointly and separately. The extra taxes we paid for filing separately was much less than the difference would have been in my IBR payments so we filed separately.

      Either way, you’ll file taxes next year and then submit the IBR renewal paperwork. They’ll recalculate the payments and you’ll pay that new amount going forward. There isn’t any adjustment for the prior year.

      • Income based repayment and marriage

        Yeah – I don’t want to do that because that will significantly increase our tax burden.

        Ex: as singles, I owe X and he owes Y

        If we file as married joint, we’ll owe approx X plus Y plus a tiny amount

        If we file as married separate, he’ll owe approx Y and I’ll owe approx X plus 10K. No thanks. If i’m going to throw 10K at something, I’d rather it be his loans.

  34. Need motivation to start a complicated project - help!

    Any one have a good mantra / cheat sheet / three step process or something similar to help you get started on a complicated project that feels like it has no clear starting point? I need a simple way to figure out how to lay out a basic project plan, but I just keep procrastinating and I’m way behind on getting this thing off the ground. Anyone have a tried and true formula for getting in gear when you’re having a hard time wrapping your head around how to move forward? Thanks in advance for any advice you have!

  35. Help me shop for a work bag

    I told my husband I want a new work bag/tote for xmas and am supposed to send him a few specific ideas. We are trying to be frugal this year, so I really don’t want him to spend more than about $150. I’m not a brand snob, but I do appreciate quality, especially when it comes to bag straps/handles, as I seem to wear those out quickly. I think I want black, but another neutral would probably be fine too. Or something with a little color blocking maybe. It needs to fit a substantial sized laptop (about 13″ wide) and have room for a padfolio, some work files, etc. – and ideally is deep enough to have space to fit in some lunch items too (not necessarily a giant lunch tote, but just the food items alone). I tend to like bags that look dressier like purses, rather than utilitarian or more like luggage. My commute is mostly in a car so I tend to bring a lot back and forth with me every day, so something that I can get stuff in and out of easily is preferable to one with lots of ‘thin’ compartments that are snug. Anyone from the hive have any suggestions for something stylish, functional, and durable enough to last a couple years? Thx!

    • Koala

      love my cuyana tote. I actually have the ziptop one as I take public transport. But the cuyana one is really good.

  36. Not rich enough

    In a household Married Filed Jointly, with AGI of around $200k we just don’t make enough to really benefit under Trump. First, my income taxes might go down 1 or 2%, but not the 10-15% for the richer brackets above me. This also means less public services that everyone depends on. Second, my capital gains taxes might go up (not right away but its’ one of his proposals). Third, the republicans want to turn Medicare into a private voucher program (which means I’ll need to save even more for retirement to cover rising health care costs). Fourth, he wants to put a freeze on federal hiring, so I’m out of a job when my federal contract ends in a couple of years (because they won’t be able to renew under a hiring freeze). Fifth, his pick for Dept. of Labor Secretary wants to make it easier for highly educated foreigners to get jobs in the U.S. My husbands dept. in his Fortune 500 company is already swamped with HB1 Visas and likes to reorg (i.e. do layoffs) every couple of years, so he will be lucky if he still has a reliable job in 4 years. So, no, any increase in the stock market right now will not make me rich enough to offset all of this financial anxiety that is currently keeping me up at night.

    • Not rich enough

      Ugh. Sorry, I meant to post this in response to post about investors being happy under Trump.

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