Suit of the Week: Ann Taylor

112 Comments

1. In BR, I wear a 6 in pants (Logan fit) and a 4P in suit jackets.

   I can never figure out what my AT size is (and I imagine that I need a curvy cut bottom).

   Can anyone translate before I do more mail-order roulette? Thanks!

   1. Last things I ordered from BR were a 4P in the suit jacket and a 4 in Avery Pant, 6 in Sloane Pant. I have not tried Logans. I have some jackets in 4P and some in 6P from Ann Taylor. Have found that some jackets just fit better a little looser. I am generally a 4P Curvy or 4 in their pants. I am pear-shaped and generally wear a size bigger on bottom than top. Hope that helps!

2. Very specific travel question: Has anyone been to Sugar Beach (formerly Jalousie) in St. Lucia? The resort looks beautiful (both the beach/scenery and the rooms) and is supposed to have great snorkeling right off the beach, which is a top priority for us. But the prices are staggeringly expensive and even though we can afford it and this vacation is celebrating a major milestone, I would like some reassurance from people who’ve visited that the hotel is amazing and that I won’t regret spending this much. Or, to the country, that this resort is not worth the money and I should find someplace else. (And yes I know I’m super privileged to even be contemplating spending this much on a hotel.)

   1. Looks like a lovely resort, but their own description “elegantly designed in Plantation style”… ew.

      1. +1

      2. To be fair, that is a recognized style. Politically correct or not.

         1. Antebellum is a recognized style (and that’s not what this resort is). It may well be lazy copy-editing and not malice, but in 2019 they can and should do better. Hell, they could have cribbed better copy off the architect’s own website for the project – “the local colonial vernacular with a contemporary twist”. Hell, even “elegant, sustainable luxury” would get the idea across without retrograde, racist connotations.

            1. It’s not antebellum in a foreign country that didn’t participate in our civil war

      3. Does plantation always mean involving slavery, or is that just in the US?

         1. I think pretty it much always means slavery. Who is working on the plantation if not slaves? Certainly there was a lot of slavery in the Caribbean, including St Lucia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_British_and_French_Caribbean

   2. You can also check out TripAdvisor for reviews of the resort. Or Oyster dot com does good reviews as well and posts real pictures of the hotel, grounds, beach, etc.

      1. I find it very difficult to assess resorts on TripAdvisor because they pretty much all have 4.5-5 stars. Anything below 4.5 stars is a major red flag to me, but 4.5 stars alone doesn’t mean the resort is great. Yelp seems to be more discerning, but doesn’t exist in many places, including St. Lucia. And in this particular case, a lot of the TA reviews seem to be from people who bought a day pass to visit the hotel beach, which is diluting the reviews from actual hotel guests.
         And yes I realize the opinions of a couple online strangers aren’t exactly good data either, but I’ve gotten good travel recs here in the past.

         1. I have this problem with TA too. I think everyone is in a generous mood when they’re on vacation.

   3. Cup of Jo has a post on it. Probably not the most objective source, but it looks dreamy.

   4. I know people who have enjoyed Anse Chastanet and Jade Mountain on St Lucia but neither were there specifically for snorkeling. Jade Mountain in particular my friends raved about.

      1. I stayed at AC ten years ago and the snorkelling off the beach was fantastic – JM and AC share a beach

         1. We will have two little kids with us, and those resorts don’t allow them. I will keep Anse in mind for the future though, since they allow older kids.

   5. If you want to spend big money in St. Lucia, Jade Mountain all the way. It is an experience unlike any other.

   6. I stayed at this resort and it was fabulous. The villa was super private and lovely (the outdoor shower with an ocean view is killer), the service was excellent (except it sometimes took a while for the shuttle to show up to collect you at your villa to get down to the beach/main resort area, and it was too steep for pleasant walking), the food was great. Never felt crowded and was nice having the beach belong to only the one resort. I haven’t stayed at Jade Mountain (which looks amazing but was way more $$ when we booked) but I would absolutely return to sugar beach.

      1. Thanks! Great to hear!

3. I’m a seventh year attorney, doing litigation in government. I want to leave my area of specialty. I’m confused how far away from my area of specialty I can realistically get. I think a lot of my skills are very transferable but I lack the substantive background for a lot of postings I see. Has anyone here done such a transition? Any advice?

   1. Any chance the area of specialty relate to something else broadly? Like corporate or financial services litigation or business lit generally?

      1. Not really – it’s a pretty niche area. I have tons of transferable skills in a general way (negotiation!) but no real substantive knowledge of the law or experience in other areas.

         1. In that case, I’d just play up the litigation aspect of it and not what you’re substantively litigating. You’ve still done motion practice, depos, discovery etc. — so make your resume more skills based around that, rather than what the motion practice is about. Whether this works or not depends on the switch you’re trying to make. Often if you’re trying to get into corporate/financial litigation, they ARE picky about WHAT you were litigating previously — even though a divorce lawyer (which I doubt you are for the government) has lit skills, they turn up their noses at people who haven’t had investment banking clientele.

         2. I think you may be underselling yourself. In order to litigate/negotiate, you have to learn whatever it is you need to learn in order to argue the merits of your clients’ positions. Can you take a step back and tell us what the subject matter of those cases were, what laws provided the causes of action, etc. and then maybe we can help you make a pitch about your skills and experience. You never just litigate – – you litigate something.

   2. Can you take on pro bono work in a different area to get a broader base — or ask your current employer to let you step back a few class years to work outside your niche (maybe in a different city)?

4. When I had a baby, somehow my OB’s office could talk to my insurance company and tell me what I would need to pay.

   Now, I’ve had surgery A months ago and still trying to find out what I owe for that. And that didn’t work (no refund!), so I need surgery B, and I’m trying to find out what I will owe for that. And I still don’t know what I owe for the first surgery.

   This is madness! And of course, the people at my doctor’s office who work in billing (not sure they even sent it to the right place) were lovely to deal with and not snotty at all.

   All that I can sort of figure out is that I will owe whatever my deductible is. But why can they not say “this is a 30K surgery” and the insurance people then say “and your share will be 2K deductible + $$$ in co-insurance/co-pay etc.”

   Feeling stabby. Seriously, do they think I just have 30K per didn’t-work surgery just burning a whole in my wallet?

   1. Have you tried calling the insurance company to ask? The last time I had surgery I had more luck with my insurance than the medical practice.

      1. +1 insurance is usually way more helpful.

   2. I get that no one pays sticker, but doctors are the worst, the absolute WORST, in not being able to tell you what sticker even is.

      I am a lawyer, technically their mortal enemy, but if I could just do my job and not deal with billing or collections, my life would be a million percent better. And if I could hire the awful billing staff they have without my clients walking, wow, just a different world.

   3. I just assume something like that will hit my out-of-pocket max.

   4. I mean, there is an answer. The reason they can’t tell you how much it costs is because the way billing is done (anesthesiology bills separately than surgeon which may bill separately than the hospital-and all different offices/entities, and none of them receive from insurance the “sticker price” that they bill), and because of all the variables of the surgery. Surgery isn’t typically $X/hr for 10 hours + cost of device. It could take longer, require different procedures once they get in there, etc.

      However, if you are able to talk to the surgery provider, ask them for the CPT codes to bill and then call your ins company. They’ll be able to ballpark it for you.

      HOWEVER, I sense ylujust want consideration ;). It sucks.

      1. The insurance company should also be providing an Explanation of Benefits (EOB) for the costs too. Its the thing you get from your insurance company that says “This is not a bill” and then lists the charges and the costs. If you haven’t gotten one, then this would be an opportunity to call your insurance provider and ask for the status or if it would be possible to get a list of the charges currently filed. If they haven’t sent one, then this could be due to the fact that all the different segments of the surgery haven’t submitted their billing (months later!).

         1. I work in medical billing, and this is accurate. Your doctor’s office should be able to give you the actual codes they’ll be submitting, then your insurance can tell you what you’ll owe for those codes. That phone call is also a good time to check that everyone involved in the surgery is in-network. Not just your doctor, but the anesthesiologist, facility, etc.
            Most insurance companies have online access to EOBs now. It may take months for your doctor’s office to submit the claim, but once your insurance has handled it you should be able to look up the “patient portion” to see what you owe, even if it takes many more months for your doctor to actually bill you.

            1. But EOBs are after the fact. You can get a treatment cost estimate from many plans and providers now, but for accuracy it requires CPT code level knowledge which the providers billers can give.

5. Has anyone had a kid and then… not liked the kid as a person? Of course you LOVE your own kid, but is it possible to not like their personality, or their actions, or the person they’re becoming? And if so, how do you deal with that?

   1. This is a really interesting question. I’m in kind of the reverse scenario; my parents don’t seem to like me very much. But I’m 30 and this is a relatively recent development in our relationship. What gets me is that the things about me that suddenly seem unacceptable to them are traits that they raised me to have (independence, a willingness to stand up for myself). I don’t know if they’ve changed or I’ve changed or both.

      1. Sadly, me, too.

         Between me and my sibling, I am the mellow no-drama financially independent one. And I feel that they (retired) are always hurrying to get off the phone when I call (weekly, so it’s not nuisance level). Sibling can suck the air out of the room for hours at a time, sometimes daily. And she’s mean as a snake, especially to my dad.

      2. Interesting. Is it possible they’ve gotten more conservative with age? I’ve seen that happen where parents who were pushing daughters re education, careers etc. are suddenly “disappointed” when you’ve achieved those things if you don’t have what they perceive is the appropriate life — i.e. you aren’t married to a husband who is more successful; or you don’t have kids; or aren’t willing to drop your career to stay home with kids; or aren’t willing to move/quit your job for your husband to take a big job; or “make” your husband help with kids or home. I’ve seen parents suddenly take on very traditional attitudes with adult daughters that they didn’t exhibit when daughters were 15 or 25.

         1. This is fascinating, and I think there’s some truth to it in my own life. Parents want their daughters to be smart, successful, and independent, but then don’t really anticipate or accept some of the tradeoffs this can present in their personal lives. Just one more way women are supposed to do it all, I guess!

         2. I have a friend going through this now. Grew up in a small town, she and her siblings were the first to go to college; despite others in town acting like girls didn’t need all that fancy college etc., her parents pushed her. She goes to college and law school. Then they’re “suddenly” worried when she’s a first year associate (age 26) that there’s no bf, she’s not married etc. They act like she’s over the hill. So around 27 she meets someone, engaged at 28. It was long distance and her fiancé has no problem moving cross country for her. Her parents (and grandparents, aunts, uncles) are SHOCKED. Why are you making him move for you? You can be a lawyer anywhere? Uh — actually he’s from a small rural town in the Pacific Northwest that’s kind of go no job opportunities. But they don’t care — a lawyer is a lawyer anywhere, he’s the husband, you follow and support HIS career (which makes about 100k less/yr than hers). And she’s like – uh these are the people who pushed me to be top of the class?? She feels like it was all a “fraud” – they truly value her on whether she is married with kids or not and that other stuff she accomplished – oh that’s nice.

         3. +1 I have definitely experienced this recently. I think part of it is my parents trying to justify decisions that they made in their own lives whereas at the time they were encouraging me to do more and be more successful, it came from more of a place of that I should be successful so that I didn’t have to struggle or be unfulfilled like them. For example, my mom stayed home for a few years with us and was miserable. She later went back to school and has a fulfilling job. She encouraged me to be successful in school, etc., when she was going back to school and upset about staying at home. Now, though, it is more like well, “I suffered through staying at home so you should too.”

      3. May not be the same with your parents, but mine also raised me to be super independent, stand up for myself, etc. but as they’ve gotten older they’ve gotten a lot more mellow. So now when I stand up for myself (not to them, but in general) it seems a lot more jarring to them. I think this is because – at the point they are now – they would just brush it off. My guess is that if they could go back in time, they’d probably find their own behavior over-the-top as well.

      4. My parents did this! I think it was unintentional, as we were poor and as kids had to be independent and work to help support the family (we had a family farm, so work started very young). I developed my identity as someone who could take care of myself, a hard worker, be productive, loved to learn, etc. Then when I was around 17 or so, they expected me to be this stay at home spouse whose main job was to listen to and support my husband, and at most I would get a job as a secretary. What?! It was a total reversal of what they expected of me.

         I don’t know that we ever got past this, but any time the argument came up I would just reply “you raised me this way” and end the conversation there.

   2. Following with interest. I don’t have kids yet, but I think this can be applicable to your feelings about your parents, or relationships between siblings, and I’m interested in how you can still have a good relationship, and how “I don’t like this family member as a person and that puts strain on the relationship” is different from “this family member is toxic and impossible to have a relationship with.”

   3. How old is the child? I think it’s definitely possible to dislike an adult child…various ages in childhood can be a gray area.

   4. I currently feel that way about my sister so I could totally imagine that parents might feel that way about their kids.

   5. Adult kids – definitely. People often turn out not to be who they were raised to be; they change; they’re influenced by peers or partners; they may start valuing money over all else even if those weren’t the values of your home.

      Young kids – you can find them annoying but aren’t they young enough that you can “guide” their behavior to your expectations? For the 12 or 17 year old crowd, you can’t — but for a 4 year old?

      1. I don’t think the question was limited to 4 year olds. 12 year olds and 17 year olds are kids.

         1. Yes but MUCH harder to guide a 17 year old than a 4 yr old bc they are pretty much their own person by that point; it even gets hard to guide a 12 year old but still more doable than 17. Age 4 OTOH is where you can really step in if you see behaviors that you don’t like.

   6. I can definitely see this with adult kids. I will say that I worried about it as soon as I heard I was having a boy, because I’d hated my brother until he was 15 or so. My eldest is 8 right now and I was right, he’s a whiny entitled pain in the ass with a stupid sense of humor. Still love him to death.

      1. Wow. His mom thinks he’s whiny, entitled, and stupid sense of humor. And you wonder why sons are sons until they take a wife.

         1. LOL you must not even know any kids.

            1. Seriously. My kid is a pain in the ass, and I would lay down my life for him.

         2. That is b/c women all love their children b/c they are ours, but boys are tougher b/c it is boy’s that got the women pregnant in the first place so they probably take out on the boys what they should on the guy’s that got them preganant in the first place. I would NOT be like that when I have kid’s b/c I will have control over the man in my life and not give him access until I want to have a child. Otherwise, I could be like these other women who I do NOT respect. FOOEY!

   7. I have 3 and one of mine is a little $hit. Always has been. The other is sort of a sociopath. I do have one decent human though, and I love all 3.

   8. Personality and character are different.

      For the personality portion, I can only suggest that you love and like your child the way you would want him/her to love and like your grandchild, if that grandchild were just like you and therefore really different from your child. (Does that make sense?)

      The character one is really hard for me to comment on, because in my family it’s so extreme. There is someone who is, essentially, a psychopath (has actual murderous tendencies, enjoys inflicting pain, torments young and vulnerable people, etc.). Parents tried to “keep the family together,” but that meant subjecting everyone to this person’s viciousness. It became everyone else’s job to tamp down on their own hurt, pain, and fear so as to not “break up the family.”

      I guess my only advice is that you still get to decide what you’re ultimately willing to put up with. In the child’s younger years, that means what you tolerate before discipline; in adulthood, it might mean drawing back or even cutting ties. Unconditional love doesn’t mean unconditional tolerance.

      1. This. I have a friend that had to make the heartbreaking decision to place her oldest child in a group home because he was a danger to the younger two children. Even the best raised children can have very serious problems.

         1. Please give her a hug for me.

            In recent years, I’ve wondered what life would have been like if the aforementioned person had been held at a distance. Probably a lot better, at least for me.

   9. Does this remind anyone else of that NYT article from a few years ago about parents of a kid that had serious psychopathic tendencies? It was terrifying and I think they had to figure out how to protect their “normal” daughter from the brother.

      1. Yes! I definitely remember that! What an awful situation to be in. I hope the little sister turned out okay.

      2. Could you possibly find the link?

         1. The title was Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath?

         2. Search for “NYTimes psycopath” and it comes right up!

      3. That article scarred me. I’m not joking. I’m terrified that I’ll have a kid who turns out to be a sociopath.

   10. So, yes. I love all three of my kids, but my oldest is challenging. He has ADHD and oppositional defiance disorder. He has no respect for people in positions of authority. He has a temper and can be extremely rude. He has tics and did not fully potty train until he was 9. He’s grown out of physical acting out, but there is kind of a constant worry about what he’s going to do. He’s not cruel or a bully or intentional with it. I definitely wouldn’t call him a sociopath or a psychopath. He just gets very easily frustrated, and he has very poor impulse control. I worry a lot about him, about what he’s going to do, about how he’s going to behave. I worry about him growing up and how he’s going to be as an adult–will he continue to improve and grow into himself or will he be a criminal? He’s 11 now. I love him. I would jump in front of a car for him. I understand all his positive traits as well–he’s brilliant and funny and really interesting in his opinions and thoughts. But, yes, I sometimes don’t like him–or don’t like his choices if I’m being PC. This is not what I anticipated when I became a parent. I don’t like that other parents assume I’m a horrible mother, even though I understand why–if I only had my other two children, I wouldn’t get it either. We spend enormous amounts of energy trying to help him, and I feel like I’m failing all the time.

       So, how do you deal with it? Therapy. Hope for the future. Lots of grace for yourself and your child. Focusing on strengths and modeling good behavior.

6. Has anyone had Stem Cell Therapy for joint pain/arthritis? Has anyone looked into and decided not to have it done? What made you do it/not do it? I’m just starting to research it for ongoing knee pain after two ACL replacements (on the knee), and there is just so much information.

   1. No – had cortisone on arthritis on my thumb though (wore off, was fine) and someone just recommended a specific CBD salve to me for arthritis pain. (I bought it at American Holistics but haven’t tried it yet.)

   2. No, but I did just read a really thorough article on stem cell therapy that really highlighted many of the issues. Feel free to pass by if this isn’t what you’re looking for, but if I were considering this treatment, I’d want to know. https://www.propublica.org/article/amniotic-stem-cell-treatment-transplant-therapy

   3. Also make sure the treatments you are looking at have been properly vetted. FDA has issued warnings that there are a lot of stem cell treatments being marketed that are not approved yet, and so have not gone thru the process to demonstrate they are 1)helpful and 2)not harmful.

      https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/fda-warns-about-stem-cell-therapies

   4. At this point, the only way I would do this is as part of an FDA-approved clinical trial. It probably won’t hurt anything to get some random cells injected into your knees… but being part of a clinical trial is a pretty good guarantee that you’re not just being sold a bill of goods.

7. Maybe because this board is anonymous, but I see a lot of readers who don’t like their close relatives much, complaining about siblings who aren’t successful or are coddled by parents and resented for it. Same with siblings in law, as well as complaints about how siblings and cousins raise their children, etc. Or complaints about how relatives are too demanding re weddings etc. I really wonder why there’s not more empathy. I have my own issues with certain family members, but I’m really trying to understand where they’re coming from and what they’re actually capable of, rather than (for example) “my parents should be better to me because I’m the better kid” or “family members should recognize that I’m not as much of a bridezilla as she was”. Am I the only one who’s noticed this?

   1. I think it’s probably the anonymity plus the relative taboo-ness of those issues. Most other questions we ask here we could also ask anyone else, but those questions are so deep and far-reaching we don’t want anyone who knows the people involved to know our thoughts.

      1. +1

      2. +1
         I was coming here today (haven’t been around much b/c work), because my sister crashed with me this weekend and while I love her and am proud of her and am generally very glad to have an awesome sister who is a kick ass doctor, general good person, and a fun person for everybody else, I am TIRED of her being the fun one and the nice one because I’ve done all of the hard work to make the logistics happen. I am also tired of gifting my time/thoughtfulness and $ to her when she cannot be bothered to return any thoughtfulness. While I’d love advice on how to deal with this, I don’t want to “complain” to my mother, nor my friends who generally all adore my sister (see above re: the fun one and nice one).

   2. I just think it’s a lot of women here who aren’t close to their families aside from husbands/kids and don’t see the value of extended family. I don’t think that’s particularly unusual for the successful echelons of people in America. Coming from an ethnic family myself, it shocks me how easily people here say — cut off your sibling; distance yourself from parents; tell your FIL to leave. Born and raised in America but I come from a culture where that just isn’t acceptable — you put up with whatever it is that you don’t like, you don’t take the — I won’t discuss this — tone that people here take. But then on the flip side you do have a ton of family support and love too, while people here lament that their parents don’t help, their kids don’t know their cousins etc. They seem to only want family relationships on their terms and then when it doesn’t work they’re confused.

      1. This. WASPy English Canadian but I’m shocked at how often ppl suggest cutting off family vs cutting back or changing how time together is spent or just tolerating differences.

      2. So much this. This group is mostly upper middle class WASPs and the way that some of you view extended family or even immediate family members is mind boggling.

         1. Why do you assume background? I’m Latinx and draw strong boundaries.

            1. +1. I’m Jewish and definitely believe in boundaries with family. I wouldn’t hesitate to cut off a parent or sibling who was emotionally abusive. Occasionally people here overreact but 9 times out of 10 when the advice is “cut off your family member” I tend to agree.

      3. +1

         I will say that social mobility can be easier if you sort of cut yourself off from the community you came from. In some ways and in some circles, it’s pretty much expected that you will.

         1. Which circles expect that you cut yourself off from your community? Do you mean your community/family expects that once you’re 18, that’s it? Or do you mean that your law firm partner community or whatever expects that you not discuss your life back home in rural Pa?

            1. I think it’s always okay to discuss your life back home in rural PA if it’s framed as the past. But I think the perception is often that people need to “escape” poorer communities to achieve full individual autonomy (perhaps partly because the social contract in many communities involves people looking out for each other and sharing what they have).

            2. I actually know people from rural communities who’ve moved onto college, law school and made biglaw associate (not partner) in NYC, DC etc. All except one are distant with their extended families. A few of them are friends so they talk about it in depth, and it sounds like there are expectations on them and their money. Siblings, cousins, nieces/nephews etc. all act like — she hit it big so OF COURSE she can pay money to repair my truck, my house, send my kid to nursing school etc. And if you don’t do it, then you’re seen as the greedy person who only cares about money and that’s why you abandoned your small town roots and your family – to go make $$. When the reality is if you’re making 200k or even 300k in NYC or DC with a ton of loans because you mostly supported yourself through college and law school, plus you want some kind of secure future for yourself — home ownership, retirement, college for your own kids etc. — you can’t really make it a practice to be spending 5k on so-and-so’s car and another 8k on so-and-so’s schooling. Some people just prefer to distance themselves, keep in touch with parents and just see the extended family once a year at Christmas than to deal with the constant asks, saying no, and then listening to passive aggressive put downs because you said no.

      4. Indian-American here — and not even a traditional Indian in any way — but yeah some of what’s said here about distancing oneself from parents or inlaws shocks me. It shocks me that people see their brothers (who live in the same country, aren’t deployed in the army etc) 1x a year.

         Though I guess it similarly shocks people when I say I have a business trip to Dallas from the east coast, I rarely get out to Tx, my oldest cousin – who I’m not particularly close with but don’t hate or anything – and his family lives there and I’m flying out a whole day early to be able to spend a Sunday afternoon with them. Coworkers who are of the same demographics as most posters here are SHOCKED that I’d even bother. Meanwhile I’m like, how will those relationships get maintained if I don’t maintain them? I see them 1x every 3 or so years at a wedding, so if I’m 40 min from their house with an afternoon to myself, we’re a tight enough family that I can pretty much invite myself over and I know there’s not going to be any — well it’s not a good time, I need my emotional space blah blah that we see here.

      5. I’m also surprised and somewhat depressed when I read those posts. I’m not “ethnic” – kind of a white mutt of rural origins – and my family culture would also not accommodate this kind of flippant estrangement from family.

         1. And I don’t understand the concept of “my family culture would not accommodate this kind of flippant estrangement from family.” “Would not accommodate?” That suggests that someone else or some other force is deciding who I see and who I don’t. Nobody decides that for me and no family member owes me anything. I work ever day to be the kind of person my kids choose to hang out with when they’re older. I hate the idea that they would visit me out of familial obligation.

            I am white and suburban. I am friendly but not close with my one remaining parent and very close to my sibling.

            1. No one has ever suggested estrangement flippantly.

   3. I don’t think anyone is saying “my parents should be better to me because I’m the better kid” – rather they feel they’re treated worse than their needier siblings and they resent that fact, which I can understand. It’s hard when parents devote more time, attention and money to one child just because that child hasn’t transitioned into a successful adult as well as other children. Based on conversations with friends and family, I think the vast majority of adults have complicated relationships with at least one close relative, and the posts here are reflective of reality. It’s not as simple as “have empathy” – adult relationships are really difficult. Fwiw, I am close to my parents (although they can drive me crazy) and my husband generally gets along well with his mother and sister, but his father is super difficult and the entire family has issues with him. My father is estranged from his only sibling and her kids, and his mother (my grandmother) is a racist, nasty piece of work and I haven’t talked to her in 10 years. I don’t think I have an abnormally dysfunctional family – I really think families where EVERYONE gets along and is super close are not the norm.

      1. +1 “Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

         I think if you don’t have a difficult relationship with your parents or your sibling it’s probably impossible to understand what it’s really like. So of course you think everybody should just suck it up and deal with it, but you don’t know what you’re really talking about.

   4. I think part of the issue is bias in what gets posted. I almost never post on conversations about this, because I don’t have anything to say. My family relationships at this point are all really good. I feel like this is mostly blind luck, so it’s not like I have advice on it either. I barely think about family conflict because I have none. I suspect that many other regulars here, likewise, do not have any reason to post about their perfectly fine family dynamics. So we don’t hear about those.

      I post aplenty about things in my life that aren’t going as smoothly!

      1. Yeah, I think it’s posting bias. We post here about relationship troubles, travel, and student loans, ha.

      2. +1. This is what I was going to say, but you said it much better.

         So, for example, I spoke with my brother for about 40 minutes last night because he wanted advice on something. But I’m not going to post on that – what would I say? It’s so bad that he kept me up late asking for advice???? I love him and we are close, so I don’t care about that.

      3. It’s not just issue bias though. I totally get that the poster is only posting because there’s a problem, that’s not surprising. What surprises me more and exposes the demographics of this group is then when 100 women respond to that post and the overwhelming consensus is — distance yourself from your parents; he’s just your brother, you don’t have to see him or be close; tell your FIL to leave your home; if you’re not in a good place emotionally, that’s all that matters, family – whatever.

         1. Right, but I also don’t post responses to these posts because I have nothing to contribute. I’m saying that the replies are also biased in favor of people who have problematic family relationships, because that’s who has input and can relate.

      4. Exactly. What am I supposed to say? Everything is awesome except my mom died last year and my heart will never be whole again?

   5. Well, people aren’t going to ask for advice when nothing’s wrong.

      1. Exactly. “You guys, I was having a rough day at work and I texted my sister to vent. She called me on her way home to let me know she was thinking about me and I Facetimed with my nephew. Really lifted my spirits. DoEs AnYoNe eLsE fEel LiKe ThIs??

         no.

   6. There’s a difference between empathy and inviting bad behavior. I have some relatives who repeatedly behaved in ways that show that they have bad character, or, to put it kindly, wildly different values. I’ve given them chances when I’ve been really vulnerable and they’ve made bad situations worse. They’ve had some unfortunate stuff happen in their lives and I feel for them, but I’m not going to expose myself (or my spouse and kids) to getting hurt again and again by maintaining a relationship with these relatives.

      Why would you stay in touch with someone, who, when given a chance, hurts you and your loved ones?

      To answer your question, I think it’s probably easier to draw boundaries when you have enough resources to make your own safety net and when you don’t live in the same small town as Uncle Jim, who knows all the business owners.

   7. In no particular order, here goes:

      Some of the situations are so unique (and horrifying) that we just have to talk in vague or coded language so as to not “out” ourselves. To people not in those situations, it sounds like whining.

      A lot goes on behind closed doors that you don’t know about, so you probably assume that families are happier than they are. For years, people only found out that I was abused by happenstance, as in, the abuse would reach such fever pitch that it naturally became sort of public.

      My wedding was a flashpoint for all the family dysfunction. Normal people who don’t like the bride or the groom don’t attend the wedding, or they attend and keep their mouths shut. Dysfunctional people love the opportunity for drama; vicious people love the opportunity for pain. This is not something I understood until I saw the guns leveled at one of the most beautiful and important days of my life.

      My friends are wonderful, but none of them went through this. They can offer advice, love, and sympathy, but they can’t offer empathy.

      A few of my friends, and my husband, all suggested that it’s easier to control me than to control the horrible people. In the world of one parent, the family would “work” if I would just shut up about being abused and bullied – and that’s apparently easier than getting the abusers and the bullies to apologize.

   8. I’m a pretty traditional WASP with a husband and two small kids. While I value and love my family members, I certainly don’t like all of them – I don’t like all of the people I work with or my neighbors or strangers either! Though I try to include my family members as much as I can manage, some of them don’t ever reach out or reciprocate in any way. And it’s frustrating that some of the ones that espouse the most “family-centric” attitudes are the least likely to send Christmas cards, call, or interact with me.

      1. Also, I have a full-time job which prevents me from being the Cruise Director of my husband’s family. He was perfectly capable of buying birthday and holiday gifts for my MIL before he ever met me, he can do that now.

         1. Love the Cruise Director comment. My husband is on a text string with the wives in his family because I don’t have bandwidth to plan his family functions for him.

8. Any lawyers (esp litigators but anyone really) here who have left law/litigation entirely and gone into a business role, who don’t regret it or are happier? I don’t mean JD preferred things like compliance or HR or working for a doc production vendor/Bloomberg/Westlaw. I mean literally starting over — like taking on a job as a pricing or strategy associate at a company and working your way up to Director of Strategy or whatever? Longshot I know, but if you did it, how was your transition/what industry did you land in? Would you do it again?

   Heard the CEO of Disney just now talking pricing strategy for the parks and for like the 5000th time this year, I’m like — that would be so cool. (I don’t mean being CEO or even a director at a co. like Disney because I know it isn’t possible, but even getting a window into that world as the associate who is crunching the numbers in Excel re park turnout this weekend). And I find myself thinking this about LOTS of different industries and roles. I feel like law just doesn’t allow you to tie to one industry like that, and while I know people will say go in house and learn the industry of wherever you land and then move to the business — I just CANNOT get hired. Seriously I’ve kept eyes open and networked for like 7 years and it isn’t happening, so now I’m thinking maybe leaving law and starting over is an idea (if I can make it happen).

   1. I’m not an ex-lawyer, but I would be a hiring manager for the type of roles you’re interested in. I’d be intrigued by an ex-lawyer wanting to be a pricing associate, but it would be a long shot. I would have to somehow see that you have skills and experience with data and analytics (not something I usually associate with lawyers), and I’d have to hear a convincing reason why you wanted to switch careers. Something like a Masters in Data Analytics or one of those programs might help with these questions.

   2. Ok but your fantasy that there’s one guy crunching numbers in excel is seriously a fantasy. I’m absolutely sure they have a team of predictive modelers working in SAS, R or Python on price vs attendance models and probably engage plenty of consultants as well.

   3. I’d say look into consulting more than going to an operating co. That’s where the mire interesting problems go, there’s more $ in it, and you’re used to client service anyway. It’ll be more similar to lawyer life than the 9-5 cube life which isn’t all that.

   4. Late reply but do want to respond with some various thoughts. I work in-house and am in charge of the commercial legal function. I am fully integrated with the pricing development, pricing strategy, and pricing analyst team. And at one point this team even reported to me. This may just be in my industry, so please take my comments with a grain of salt, but these roles are not sexy at all and they do not pay great. The price models are not “clean”. They’re giant Excel spreadsheets that are the bane of everyone’s existence. Everyone in the department is under incredible time pressures. And just pressure generally- if we get the pricing wrong it can be embarrassing or devastating to the business. These are not geeky roles but very practically oriented roles. The skills needed for the job in my company are a very good working knowledge of Excel, a strong understanding of the business, ability to prioritize. The entry level position in the dept pays about $50k and is both monotonous and high pressure. This eventually (after about 6 years if you are consistently the top performer on the team) leads to a position that could pay about $100k which could eventually lead to a high level strategy executive position. One time, a fellow manager convinced me to hire a lawyer for the role. Our thinking was, litigators a slick deal makers and often business savvy. Our hire ended up being my most overpaid employee, and tapped out after 2 years and moved back in to litigation. For her (and I’m not saying this is the case for you) the pace was too fast (you cannot be a perfectionist in this role), and her industry knowledge, finance and business acumen were insufficient. Also, working with a bunch of entry level people drove her crazy even though in her interview she said it wouldn’t bother her. My 3 star performers in the role were two that came from the industry and worked their way up and only had an associates degree, and one employee with an MBA. That’s my very long winded anecdote. As far as advice, could you take on transactional work to try to increase your opportunities to get hired in-house? Would you consider an MBA? Have you looked in to industry associations that might interest you so you could learn more about a specific business/industry?

9. Give me courage ladies. I’m someone who did biglaw and now in government — I’m fine with it but don’t necessarily want it long term. I kind of want to end up in midlaw/regional biglaw; in the DC area now. I’ve identified a few firms that’d be a good fit — growing regional type firms though no idea if they’re hiring at my level (and I have no book so that doesn’t help), in my department etc. Turns out one would just be a blind resume submission and the other firm unbeknownst to me has a guy in the partnership that I started my career with in biglaw. The blind submission – whatever. The guy I know — I feel like I could at least get a coffee with to learn more whether they are hiring now or not, to perhaps meet other partners at his firm. Just the need courage to reach out . . . as I’ve gotten shot down SO many times for SO many opportunities.

   1. Have you posted about this a lot?

      1. No? But I think there’s likely more than one person in DC that’s looking. Def the first time I’ve mebtioned knowing w guy at one of these firms because I literally learned of it a few hours ago.

   2. Ask! The worst the could happen is that you’re in the same position you’re in now. The best that could happen is a new job.

      Do follow the social niceties, though. I love helping classmates with general advice, but hate when a call only seems to be about whether I’ll get them a particular job.

Comments are closed.