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For busy working women, the suit is often the easiest outfit to throw on in the morning. In general, this feature is not about interview suits for women, which should be as classic and basic as you get — instead, this feature is about the slightly different suit that is fashionable, yet professional.
I always like cotton pique for summer suits: it's a far sturdier fabric than linen, but the fabric breathes almost as much. I'm not a huge fan of short-sleeve suits, but I like this one: the lack of a collar is interesting, and the belt gives the whole thing a flattering, attractive shape.
It's from a brand I've never heard of — Bigio Collections — so if you have experience, do please share.
The suit is $300 at Neiman Marcus. Short-Sleeve Pique Suit
Sales of note for 9.30.24
- Nordstrom – Beauty deals through September
- Ann Taylor – Extra 30% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
- Boden – 15% off new styles
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – 50% off select styles
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 50% off sale with code
- Lo & Sons – Warehouse sale, up to 70% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Friends & Family 25% off
- Rag & Bone – Friends & Family 25% off sitewide
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Fall Cyber Monday sale, 40% off sitewide and $5 shipping
- Target – Car-seat trade-in event through 9/28 — bring in an old car seat to get a 20% discount on other baby/toddler stuff.
- White House Black Market – 40% off select styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
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- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Ann
I have a couple of Bigio Collections items I got from Barrie Pace, when that site was still around. Excellent quality, well worth the price on this suit, unless things have changed substantially since they were selling on Barrie Pace.
mamabear
OMG Barrie Pace is gone! I had no idea. Sad. :(
I had a few Bigio items as well, and they were great.
SS
Threadjack right off the bat!
I was wondering what y’alls thoughts are on pre-nups? I’m in biglaw and my fiance is still in school (has 3 or 4 years left). I have a decent amount of savings and also own the house we live in and have some equity in it. My earning potential will probably always outpace his, but the gap might grow smaller in the coming years. We’re getting married in October, and hadn’t really thought about pre-nups until recently. He says he’s fine signing one if that’s something I really want but I could tell that the conversation bummed him out a little (from a “I don’t want to be thinking about a divorce when we’re planning a wedding” angle).
What do y’all think about prenups? Any experience or stories to share? For what it’s worth, we live in Texas, which is a community property state. Thanks in advance!
Midori
Husband and I came in to the marriage with pretty disparate resources (me: school debt, low salary. him: no debt, equity in a house, high salary.) . We didn’t do a pre-nup, and the only discussion we had about it was something like, “no way we want a pre-nup.” For us, marriage is all or nothing. That’s the “for better or for worse” part. Risky? Yeah, I guess. Marriage is inherently risky. Either it’s worth the risk or it isn’t.
found a peanut
I want to respectfully disagree. The idea that you and your spouse are going to be together forever is nice and may be true in the specific (i.e., it may be true for Midori and her husband) but in the general it’s very naive. Everyone who is about to get married thinks that they’ll never get divorced. Many people get divorced. One of those many people could (unfortunately, hopefully never) be you. I would get a prenup. Hopefully it will be a document you never have to use, but if you ever have to use it, you’re going to be very happy you have it.
That said, I don’t have a prenup. So here is your grain of salt.
somewherecold
Yeah, it’s a naive (or maybe unrealistic) view, but the only thing that would concern me in what Midori listed would be the house. The way we’re trying to structure our prenup, a house that one partner brings to the marriage 100% on their own would not be split evenly upon dissolution after 1 year of marriage, but might be split evenly after 15 years of marriage, or something like that.
Diana Barry
We didn’t even discuss it – it went without saying that no way did we want one. No way! I agree that it makes sense in a 2nd marriage situation, where you want the kids from the 1st marriage to be provided for.
anon
Use a good and competent lawyer if you’re going to do one. A friend who had A LOT of money going into a marriage got one and his wife, who never gave up her job, had children, and left him (and he didn’t cheat), got a substantial portion of his earnings pre-marriage in the divorce b/c the lawyer who did the prenup wasn’t very good (from other lawyers who looked at it during the divorce process). I’m not married, but I think prenups make a lot of sense. I’ve seen a lot of well-off friends go through long nasty divorces because of the division of money. Why not agree when you actually still like each other and can communicate what you think is fair in the hypothetical future. And if it brings up other issues regarding what commitment looks like to each of you, I don’t think that is a bad thing at all (for my 2 cents).
somewherecold
Not in a community property state (and none of our potential move-to states are), but here’s my take. FI and I are both new attorneys. His father is a forensic accountant, and I’m a state court law clerk and see my share of family matters. We’ve both heard stories of things going very very bad, and of course we hope that even if we did divorce, it would be amicable, but we can’t predict the future.
We just started talking to attorneys. We’d like a prenup that will make both of us feel good about investing our individual assets in the marriage–buying a house is the main thing that comes to mind, but other things, too. That is, we don’t want to have one of us think, “well, we want to make this purchase, but I don’t want to spend my money if this marriage might not last much longer.” I know some people put stuff about spousal support in, but we’re not doing that, which I realize could change the cash distribution upon dissolution, but neither of us feel the need or are comfortable doing that.
I don’t like having to do it, because it’s boring and I want to watch TV and do fun stuff when I’m at home with my fiance instead of talking about what happens to our assets when we get divorced or one of us dies. But whatever, the realist in me knows we should do it, although part of me also thinks that we don’t know where we’re going to end up and how the courts in that state will feel about honoring prenups, so it’s kind of a crapshoot anyway.
My fiance wanted to do it, and I feel like it’s the responsible adult thing to do, and he is often more the responsible adult than I am, so I am going along.
somewherecold
Also, I wanted to add about our financial situation–if anything, I am the “stronger” party (to use hilary’s language below, although I also don’t like thinking about it in those terms). We probably have a similar earning potentials, although we’re in a temporary spot right now, so it’s hard to say for sure.
And SS, thank you for starting this. I’m really interested in what others have to say, and I appreciated having a reason to put some of those words down, I haven’t expressed some of those feelings aloud before.
Bridget
When we got married, my husband was the “stronger” party and did not insist on a prenup, although I offered to sign one. I sometimes wonder if it was the right decision to not do one on my part. We’re happily married and so I’m not worried about my own divorce prospects, but thinking back on it rationally, is it clear that the “weak” party shouldn’t want a prenup? I’d think there’s a lot to be said for having a fair agreement in writing so that if things do go South, you have a less painful divorce process. That’s good for both parties, including the “weaker” party.
AIMS
I don’t have a problem with pre-nups. It’s a personal decision. I don’t think it makes you any more or less likely to get a divorce. People are often irrational about them but there’s no reason to be. It’s just a contingency plan. Kind of like fire insurance.
If you get one, you will each need an attorney to represent you (even if one attorney does the drafting). Also, if you do it, leave enough time before the wedding. I have a friend who signed one the week of the wedding, and that was stressful, to say the least.
anon
I’m married to an attorney who is much older and much wealthier than me. He has been divorced twice and has a child–so I totally understood his desire for a prenup to protect his assets and signed willingly. Intellectually it makes sense (and it probably is a good idea for you), but I have to tell you that emotionally it bothers me. We’re a few years in now and I have a hard time because I feel like I’m not a “partner” in anything. I have my own successful career (not as lucrative as his) and I had my own place that I miss dearly. After moving in with him, it feels like everything is about “his” house, his child, his XYZ, and he frequently throws that at me when we fight. I’m jealous of my friends who seem to share in everything together. It’s also made me think a lot about steps to leave him when it gets rough since it is all set up very conveniently to do so (and often it’s being thrown in my face to get out of “his” house). I’m sure the issues aren’t the prenup itself. It’s more a matter of being with someone who really doesn’t see things as a team. In past relationships I was always the higher earner and am a pretty generous person, so it seems very strange to be on this end and always feel like I’m being made out to be a gold digger or something. Sometimes I think it would have been much easier if I just stayed with someone who was closer in age and career progression. Or at least someone more open to sharing his whole life with me and not just the parts he deems fit.
found a peanut
Off-topic, but I thought this was an interesting analysis of what it’s like to be with an older man. I am married to a man who is my age and sometimes think about whether it is better to be with someone older because he would presumably be more established, have more money, maybe own a house already. Your story just showed me the flip side of that.
AE
I dated a much older man (over 20 yrs older) for five years. He was a really great guy, smarter than almost anyone else I have met and was incredibly supportive and encouraging. He drove me to every single lawschool exam I had. I don’t think I would be where I am today with my career without the self-confidence I gained from his incessant encouragement.
On the other hand, he definitely had some trust issues, and the relationship was isolating for me. As much as I would have not wanted to admit it, I was self-conscious of the age difference, and did not make close friends during those years because of it. Like many men his age, mine was very set in his ways. In the end I broke up with him.
I think older men married to or dating younger women tend to have insecurities they are unwilling to acknowledge that can result in verbal bullying like anon is experiencing.
You Have NO Idea . . .
My father is 73. His current wife (no. 4) is 44 (my age), 28 years younger. His third wife was 18 years younger. His second wife was four years younger. My mother (no. 1) was six months younger.
He has NEVER had a prenup. But if I had a penny for every time I have heard him complain (and rightly so, in my opinion) about the money he had to pay to nos. 1, 2 and 3, I would no longer need to work. (BTW, although he has amassed enormous amounts of wealth, he has lost 60-75% of it three times, in 1977, 1982 and 2005 — so I will never see any of that money and I’m guessing my six siblings (one full, three half from no. 3 and two half from current no. 4) won’t either.
When he introduced me to no. 4 at lunch one day (“Daughter, meet Sally [not her real name], my fiance.”), I suggested he consider a pre-nup (while she was in the ladies room). He turned red, yelled and told me he never again wanted to discuss it. Five years later, he was calling asking me to help him financially. Some of the guilt trip included “I am going to sell my Breitling watch [that he has had forever], even though I wanted to leave it to your oldest brother, unless you help me.” I suggested he sell some of no. 4’s expensive jewelry (does she really need FOUR massive engagement rings from Tiffany’s, Cartier etc?). He stopped talking to me.
Oh, and by the way, no. 4 claims she “didn’t know” that he was still married to no. 3 when they met. Here’s a few clues: (1) he was 69 and had three kids ranging from 40 to 14; (2) you were introduced by your friend, who met him at a birthday party he threw for his wife (no. 3) two months before your first date; and (3) he proposed — and you accepted — 34 days after you met him! She is either the most brilliant or the most moronic woman I have met.
What am I saying (sorry to vent)? I guess what I am saying is, if a man is that much older and has a long string of ex-wives and kids behind him, be careful.
Finally, if what I wrote sounds disrespectful, I am not proud of that. It has been a very long haul.
Ann
“What am I saying (sorry to vent)? I guess what I am saying is, if a man is that much older and has a long string of ex-wives and kids behind him, be careful.”
It pains me to say this, in a way, because as I said, one of my friends is in this situation – but I agree. My late FIL was married four times. After the first two, he got smart and got prenuptials, and thankfully the last two marriages were very brief so he didn’t lose much in the divorces. But I can say with authority, there was no way any woman was ever going to be the wife who made it work with him. He was an irascible, selfish womanizer and by the time he was in his 40s, the behavior patterns were set and they were not going to change, period. I think some women look at a guy who’s been married two or three times and think they’re going to be like Mickey Rooney’s current wife – I think she’s wife number 6, but they’ve been married 30 years – and be “the one” who sticks it out with Mr. Much Married. And that almost never happens.
Not trying to criticize women who are married to older guys, but it is an object lesson for the ladies out there looking to get married: a guy who has already been through a couple of wives (and especially those who have several associated children, and are therefore eternally tied to said ex-wives) is not necessarily the best idea. The baggage is going to be considerable and to me, I think there’s also an issue of “I got out of this before, I can get out of it again.” By my late FIL’s last divorce it was routine for him. He hadn’t really ever engaged, because he was more or less expecting it not to work. Not fair of him. But not smart of the woman to have signed on the dotted line either, when she knew that was the case.
Midori
You have deeper issues than a pre-nup! You shouldn’t be belittled simply because your monetary contribution is less. Money does not equal value, and he has no right to equate the two!
Miriam
That sounds terrible! It seem like you are living in someone else’s house and he treats you like a child. You are completely right in that he should share his entire life with you! I’m assuming you have your own income and can be financially stable on your own since you are on this blog. Is there anything keeping you with him?
CW
I’m so sorry. I agree with you though – the prenup isn’t the issue.
Lyssa
Continuing Found a Peanut’s off-topic-ness, I’ve often expressed the unpopular opinion that there are a lot of advantages to marrying when both parties are fairly young (and have little) (For me, he was 23, I was 21, we celebrate our 10th aniversary this year). My usual argument is that a couple can grow together and enhance each other, but the “team” issue, regarding neither party having anything materially and building it together, is important, too, IMO.
(Obviously not a failsafe, but I think that the current trend towards being fully-formed, well-established adults has its downside.)
guest
Thanks for throwing this in Lyssa. I got married at 21 and got a load of (negative) comments about it for years from both family and friends (“it won’t last,” “you’re so young,” “how could you be so certain”). 8 years into our marriage w/ no problems the comments have finally subsided (although I still draw the exclamations whenever I mention how old I was when I got married).
goirishkj
Guest you could be me, but I was 22 when I got married and it will be 8 years this spring.
For us it worked great. Like everything in life, there are tradeoffs, but for us growing together worked out. Not sure that I’d recommend it to everyone, but for us it totally worked and I’d do it again in a heartbeat.
Yep
Another young bride (I was 22) who has no regrets. Not trying to dump on anyone who took a different road.
b23
Same here! We were both 22 when we got married, and we built a life together. We’re six years into it and totally happy. He was in med school, and I was in law school, so it was complicated. We are now almost finished with clerking and residency!!! Even if we wanted to, we couldn’t give up on the life we’ve built together. I’ve heard other people saying you have to enjoy your 20s, and you’re missing out on life if you get married young, but that wasn’t true at all for us.
Lyssa
It makes me feel happy about the world to see so many commenters chime in about their happy marriages!
Fb
Well, I guess I will be the lone voice of dissent:
I got married at 24 to the guy I’d been dating since I was 15 years old. It is the biggest regret of my life, and years of therapy has done nothing to mitigate the pain, shame and humiliation I have suffered (and will continue to suffer for, apparently, the rest of my life).
WHY oh WHY didn’t someone try to stop me?! I am really bitter that so many adults who were close to me decided to keep their mouth shut and let me make my own decision.
Marrying young is awesome – when it works out. Which, statistically speaking, doesn’t happen often.
Ann
“Marrying young is awesome – when it works out. Which, statistically speaking, doesn’t happen often.”
Notwithstanding the positive stories in this thread, I guess?
Anon
Agreed. I was almost 22 when I married my husband. We literally had nothing. Now we’re both attorneys and have kids, careers, a house (and a lot of law school debt!). I see definite advantages to having been together through all of it for the past 11 years.
Anon-ee-mouse!
Agreed! Married when I was 23 and my husband was 22. There’s something to be said for building a life together – going from no assets to both being professionals makes us appreciate how far we’ve come. Different strokes for different folks. I had no desire to “party it up” in my 20s and am completely happy just spending my Friday nights with my husband.
ks
Same here…..married @ 19, DH 20. That was 30 years ago. Finished undergrad together, paid our own way through grad school together. Had less than nothing. Now, one successful daughter through college on her own in NYC, two successful careers, two homes later, wouldn’t trade him for the world. Now just @ the age where I have to fear losing him to death/disease. Trying not to get irrational over the thought of being alone without the biggest part of my life…..
Ann
Hugs, ks. If it’s any consolation, my husband is 40 and I have the same fears.
Anonymous
It makes sense to get married younger, and to have children rather than spend twenty five years on birth control and then try to get pregnant. I hate this idea that people must have their life in perfect order before getting married and having children.
Consultant in NoVA
You can’t control when you meet your spouse though. Many people don’t meet their spouses until they are in their 30s or 40s. It’s often a matter of circumstance and not a choice of having life in perfect order first.
anonaswell
This is an issue far beyond a pre-nup.
You didn’t ask for relationship advice, and so I’m reluctant to even say anything — but it sounds like you know this isn’t acceptable or fair behavior on his part. And it’s hard when you’re there — but when you’re ready to make a change (getting out, getting counseling, etc) you’re going to be strong enough to see it through.
The age/wealth/kid thing doesn’t justify this — my SO is older, has more wealth, and has a child, but even in the worst of our fights he has never told me to get out of ‘his’ place –and I don’t even officially live there.
Anon
“Intellectually it makes sense, but . . .”
I’m with you on this, as a result of personal experience. For reasons related to a family-owned business, a prenup “requirement” was sprung on me out-of-the-blus six weeks before my wedding (everyting planned, invitations out, wedding expenses paid, etc). My husband was presented the doc. by lawyers for the family/company, and had no understanding of its terms at all (which poses lots of other issues about how great those lawyers were). I felt completely coerced, had to pay for my own lawyer to tell me how one-sided the document was. I demanded certain concessions related to my (comparatively meager) assets, but the fact is, there was completely unequal bargaining power (and logically, no equivalency of assets), so my concessions were more me saving face than in any way giving me any sort of financial protection. I basically waived very, very valuable financial rights in the event of divorce, for nothing more than the privilege of marriage. (I do love my husband, but still).
The experience was incredibly stressful, expensive for me at the time, and put my then-fiance and I in a very hostile position to each other a month before our wedding. We had fights about it. I felt as if no one in his family trusted me, and they thought our relationship was shaky. I hated thinking about divorce a month before my wedding. There were many tears from me as I pondered that I had no options but to agree, even knowing I was waiving my own protection if after decades of marriage we divorced. I wondered if he really cared for me if he didn’t even make an effort to understand this document he was told (by his parents) I “had” to sign. It was really, really ugly.
In retrospect, I wish I had stood up to them and said, “I’m not signing that thing.” But I felt backed into a corner. And I am a very intelligent, educated lawyer who can advocate for herself — I shudder to think of the lack of bargaining power of others. Based on that experience, notwithstanding my lawyer credentials and my understanding of their purpose, I now think prenups are poison. It’s not a completely rational position, I understand, but I remain bitter about the whole experience years later.
E
Why don’t you go amend your pre-nup?
Anon
Interesting thought! I should clarify — I bring in a sizeable salary myself, and would not be destitute in the event of a divorce. The pre-nup just took off the table earnings on certain assets that in my state I would be entitled to 1/2 of if we divorced. (And, there is a very logical tax reason for the company wanting that protection). So, I don’t worry about my safety, I just remain mad that I was expected to make a sacrifice he was not asked to make, and (due to some later developments), other new members of the family got out of making. I don’t want to go into detail.
I’m really intrigued by the idea of making that proposal. Would have to think about the assumptions/questions that would cause through the family. The speculation I could start rippling through the ranks (why does she want that??) might be worth it alone.
AIMS
You can’t amend a prenup (with few exceptions). There is no consideration.
M in CA
Can they do a post-nup, then? Maybe that’s what E meant by amending the pre-nup. :)
AIMS
A pre nup, like any other contract, needs to have consideration. The consideration for the pre nup is getting married. It is difficult to establish consideration for a post nup agreement, generally. And, threatening divorce would certainly be considered coercion. Not all states recognize them, and if they do, courts really scrutinize the hell out of them.
Of course, you can always sign one anyway. You may feel better about your relationship as a result, and that’s important. In the event of divorce, you can even agree to abide by the post-nup (the same way you could agree to distribute property any which way you want if you both choose to do it). But if your SO wants to contest it — and it’s hard to predict how people will act when faced with divorce — it is far from a given that your post nup will be enforceable.
E
AIMS – it may no longer be a “pre-nup” once they are through with it, but there are indeed ways to amend the document in my state and most if not all others (M is right – a “post-nup”).
Miriam
Shouldn’t they have at the very least paid for an attorney of your choice? IMHO, if they were so worried about protecting their assets, they should pay to secure that protection.
sutemi
In the unlikely event that you did divorce, I would imagine that you would have sufficient evidence to show that you were coerced into the prenup. You cannot just sign one a couple weeks before the wedding and have it hold up in court.
Ann
anon, if it’s any consolation, I have a friend in a similar situation – she is wife #3 to a guy 15 years her senior – and she deals with the same kinds of emotional ammunition being thrown at her, and the same feeling that it is “you over there and me here” not “we together” whenever there are problems. Counseling (for her, he won’t go) is helping a lot, if you’d consider it. Good luck. :)
kz
I’m not married, but I have tried to convince a friend or two in the past to get one (in situations where friends had vastly more wealth than their fiancees). It’s not a pleasant topic, but some ridiculously high percentage of marriages end in divorce. No one wants to think their marriage will be in that statistic, but it could happen. I don’t think it’s saying “oh, this marriage will fail, we must have a pre-nup!” I think it’s just being practical, like buying life insurance as someone mentioned below.
But then again, I’m a lawyer. We’re risk-averse people. Better to deal with the risk up front rather than after the fact.
Diana Barry
Actually, the risk of divorce for people who are college-educated, going into a first marriage, is low – I think around 10%.
Em
If this is true (which it might be, I have no clue), the people I know must really be statistical anomalies because the divorce rate is waaaaaay higher than 10% for first-marriage, college educated couples I know.
kz
Me too. Though most of those I know are my friend’s parents (I’m not quite old enough to have many friends married, much less divorced), so I assume rates have decreased through the years? I’m also from a Southern state, which I think has higher rates of divorce than the rest of the country (despite being the Bible belt…)
mamabear
I’m not sure where that statistic comes from (and you know what Mark Twain said about statistics – this coming from a statistician) but from my personal vantage point, the rate is close to 50%, and yes everyone in my social circle is college educated. Things look a lot different when you’re mid-40s vs mid 20s.
mamabear
From what I’ve been able to find online that is relatively unbiased (social security records vs. polls by advocacy or church groups, for instance) the divorce rate among the college-educated population 20 years in is between 20% and 35%, depending on how old the participants were when they wed. (Under 26 years old at marriage was the group with the higher divorce rate)
CW
I think prenups are helpful in circumstances like if you have a family business or significant investments prior to getting married. I think they are practical and a way to protect yourself, and less about the (possible) future demise of your relationship.
But then again, my fiance and I don’t really have assets or investments that we need/want to protect, so we are not planning on having a prenup. And I don’t know how I’d feel if my fiance told me that he wanted a prenup. If I were in your shoes, I’d take a look at my assets and think about whether I was ok giving up half of the value in the event of a divorce.
Anonymous
Another perspective (not a romantic view, so I apologize in advance for that): my husband and I recently separated after 12 years of marriage. Me: big law, high income, fiscally conservative saver; him: creative-type, small business owner, relatively low income, free-spender. We’ve always had an income gap, and it’s grown larger over the years. We’re now in the process of negotiating a separation agreement and property settlement. Boy, do I wish I’d gotten a pre-nup. It galls me to think that he might end up getting half of everything I’ve managed to sock away, particularly since (from my perspective) I’ve paid our way all along and bailed him out of financial trouble at every turn. Of course no one enters marriage with the idea that they will end up divorcing; definitely not the most romantic approach. But separation and divorce are stressful enough without the added pressure of trying to reach an amicable agreement with your soon-to-be ex.
somewherecold
Just wanted to say sorry to hear that and hope you’re doing ok.
CW
I’m sorry about your situation; I hope you’re doing ok (or, will be ok soon).
ABC
For what it’s worth (and in the slightest chance it helps you feel any better about this)… a prenup wouldn’t have helped you in your situation unless you came into the marriage with a ton of money. Anything you made (or saved) while married was marital property and “fair game,” even with a prenup.
anon-22
I’m pro pre-nup. In my current relationship it’s up for grabs who would be ‘protected’ more by one. He’s older, has savings and a house, divorced with a child. I’ve got much greater earning potential and my parents (who are healthy, and I want to have stick around for as long as possible) are planning on leaving me and my sibs a nice, but not crazy, inheritance.
I don’t think it’s contemplating divorce, anymore than I think pre-marital counseling is contemplating divorce. IMHO hashing out how things could go wrong may make it easier to get over the rough patches that are inevitable — because marriage seems hard at times, even in the best of situations. And, from an entirely practical point of view, it’s one less thing to fight about if things do go that way.
I’m generally of the view of you leave with what you came with and brought in, but the circumstances of my current relationship are such that I may end up taking a cut in my salary and earning potential to move for his (very valid) personal reasons. This scares me, as I have visions of eating cat food as an old lady if we divorce (not even married, so this is highly premature, but I’m a worrier!).
Mille
This is what I tell my clients– A marriage is simply a business agreement. You always want a plan to get out when/if you need to. Divorce is a math problem. The judge will decide what is fair and equitable.
I’m not in a community property state. Taking the emotions out of the equation will help you make a better decision. Divorce as a math problem works especially well with clients who don’t care who gets the kids or house or cars, but want to go to trial and fight to the death over who gets the sofa.
just Karen
I am definitely interested in hearing people’s thoughts on this…I’m getting married in a year, and each of us own our homes, but while I owe about $50k on a $95k condo, he has a large house with over $200k debt on it that requires him renting rooms to make the payment on. I’ve been out of school five years and have paid off my student loans, have about $50k in retirement, and around $25-30k in savings (and about to get a $10k inheritance). He’s getting his PhD in a couple of months and has a relatively moderate amount of student loans (@18k), and not a lot in savings. Neither of us have credit card debt. He would be in a better position financially, but he helps support his mother and brother (which I love him for, but I know will be an ongoing issue during the marriage – she’s a school teacher with a 22 year-old disabled child, so I want to help her, but he puts her needs before his own, and if we have a family I am going to need his to restructure those financial priorities). Sorry, long tangent – we will likely make roughly the same amount within a few years. I’m not in BigLaw, usually make $60-$70k a year, but had one great case that helped me get on my feet financially. I honestly hadn’t considered a pre-nup…should I be?
Scully
I have a different take on this situation- my 25-year old sibling is disabled. I have spoken to my parents about this, and they want me to get a pre-nup if I get married to protect his share of the modest inheritance. I will likely have control of his funds. We’ve thought about special needs trusts, etc. but don’t feel they are the best option. I have no problem with a pre-nup due to this.
Even if you don’t get a pre-nup, you’ll want to ask what your fiance’s family’s plans are for caretaking if the mother passes away- can the 22-year old take care of himself/herself? Will he/she move in with you? Assisted living (which can be very expensive)?
Another Laura
In your case, you may not need a pre-nup to protect your inheritance. If you get an inheritance, it does not become community or marital property unless you comingle it and the same with your brother’s share: Put it in a separate account without your spouse’s name on the account and keep RE assets in your sole name. But I also think you and your parents need competent legal counsel, because your brother should not inherit because that will allow him to be eligible for medicare/medicaid if needed and also to set up a trust in case you die after your parents while your brother still needs care.
Another point: If I were to marry you, I’d be likely to want a pre-nup to guarantee that I would not be responsible for supporting your brother if we were to divorce. Depending on the state law and the judge, that could happen.
Food for thought.
R
I’ll throw in my two cents as well. I’m recently married (within the last two months) and it sounds like I was in a similar money situation to you: higher earner, better prospects, already significant investments on my side, compared to very little of that on his. We did get a pre-nup, though a minimalist one. We basically said that what we come in to the marriage with is separate forever until we choose to make it otherwise and everything that comes during the marriage (with a few exceptions) will be joint. I also had the additional issue of his family having really significant issues around money, so I wanted some level of protection from them.
Try not to think of it as planning for a divorce. It’s a money management issue, so you want to put on your practical, big girl hat for it just like you would for any other investment decision.
Finally, get started on it now. It’ll take some time to put together and you’ll have less patience for it as wedding crap starts to overwhelm your life.
R
Oh, also do wills. In fact, talk to an estate planner first. It may turn out that you can accomplish your goals for a pre-nup (depending what and how complex they are) through an estate planning avenue instead.
E
Among my friends, the guy has usually had more money, the guy suggests/insists upon a pre-nup, the woman acts offended and hurt, but the guy pushes it through without any remorse. I think that’s what you should do in this case.
AE
I’m getting married this fall and we are getting a prenup. I’m a few years older than he is and make more money. I also own my own home and have other investments, having inheritted from family members. My fiance understands that I need to protect myself, and both he and I had parents go through messy divorces.
All this said, this is not a process that I am enjoying, and I am going to try to get this out of the way well in advance of the wedding.
PollyD
A friend of mine had a pre-nup when she got married. Her husband had a fledgling business that she actually was working at and helping expand. The pre-nup was designed to protect both of them – his initial investment and her efforts to grow the business (which they did quite successfully, from the viewpoint of 10+ years later!). Anyhow, my friend said it was actually a good experience because the process of developing the pre-nup got both of them talking about financial goals and how they dealt with money in a structured setting.
So, I think it can be a good pre-marriage exercise, and a chance to learn some more about your intended besides his/her financial status. I think that having the attitude that it is going to protect both members of the marriage is necessary for a successful pre-nup.
SS
Thanks to everybody for the all the responses. It’s been very interesting reading the various perspective and I’ll definitely take into consideration everything that’s been said. Not an easy decision to make, that’s for sure.
SS
* perspectives.
Circe
Think of a prenup as an insurance policy. You don’t buy term life insurance or health insurance because you think you’re going to die in the next 10 years or going to get in a car accident. It’s a *just in case* thing. You have it and hope you don’t need it. I really don’t see why so many people are against it. Of course you think your marriage is going to work – otherwise you wouldn’t actually be getting married. But, pardon the phrase, “sh!t happens.”
Anonymous
I am a divorce attorney in a non-community property state. Do it. Think of it as a back up plan. As some of the other posters commented, it is simply a math problem. I could go on and on about clients who thought they would be in love forever and didn’t want to deny the love of their life anything. People change and some marriages turn sour.
It's The Smart Thing To Do
I think pre-nups are just the smart thing to do. Don’t forget that your pre-nup can say whatever you want it to say.
Mine (divorced without kids 10 years ago) said: (1) whatever you come into the marriage with, you leave with; (2) whatever you earn during the marriage belongs to you; and (3) any gifts from family during the marriage belong to the spouse whose family gave the gift. We were both recent graduates with no debt, no assets and roughly equivalent salaries. But my family was much wealthier than his, and my dad didn’t want any gifts he gave us to end up with my former husband in the case of a divorce.
As usual, Dad was right. Dad gave me the money for our first house. I bought the house and put title in both our names, hence “making a gift to the community” for those who live in community property states. My former husband could have demanded half the house (or its equity) when we divorced. Thankfully, he was far too mortified that his mother found out we were getting divorced because of his affair to say one word. And I signed that agreement so fast your head would spin because I was afraid he would wise up. Ten years later, I am still grateful. I live in that same house in a very nice part of southern California, and that house is half my net worth.
But if you have concerns that what is appropriate now won’t be appropriate in 2o years, when you’ve both invested more in the marriage, then you can structure it so that you “vest” more as the years pass. Or that you will re-negotiate after each kid. Or whatever. An experienced negotiator/drafter of pre-nups (and you should personally interview at least 3 and you and your husband each need your own attorney) will be able to give you options.
Two years ago, my fiance and I merged households. He has a former wife and two kids (now 20 and 15). I refuse to get married until both kids are out of college and the opportunity for his harpy former wife to ruin my life is much reduced. In the meantime, we have a cohabitation agreement. Much the same as a pre-nup (except without the “nup”). Ours says that what you bring in is yours, what you earn is yours, his house (now rented to someone) belongs to him, my house (in which we live) belongs to me, and my income and assets can never be used for his spousal or child support (MAJOR issue for me given his former wife). We recorded it with the county recorder so that his former wife has constructive knowledge and if she asks for my money, we can ask the court to sanction her for making the request.
Then we coordinated our separate wills and trusts so that if I die, he still gets to live in my house, and if he dies, his money goes to his kids.
It is a lot of lawyering, but I sleep like a baby at night.
20YearsOfPractice
Prenups are a great idea to protect the assets a partner brings into a marriage or if there are children from other relationships to be protected. My concern would be with relatively young people who plan to have kids and enter into prenuptial agreements – particularly those that involve not only gifts/inheritance/pre-marriage assets, but earnings during the marriage. What happens when one partner takes time off (or takes a professional step down) to take care of children? What about the partner whose profession requires that the other take over more than their share of the work of running a household? That person (usually but not always the women) can be seriously shortchanged in a divorce.
In my case I took a total of three years off work to have babies and then went back to a less lucrative job so that I would have more time to take care of them, run a house,and (quite honestly) take care of my husband, who has a much more demanding job that requires he travel a fair amount. That is not a complaint. We talked about it and I made my choices happily, but if we had a prenup that said what you earn is yours and if he left me for a younger, thinner model I would be in serious trouble.
3L in Los Angeles
Not married, but I think this article says a whole lot!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/03/laura-wasser-celebrity-di_n_817271.html
theirway11
I think the only circumstance under which I wouldn’t push for a prenup STRONGLY would be if 1. we’re both coming out of school and we’re equally broke 2. Prince Harry realizes we are meant to be together and we get married and I become HRH Princess Theirway11. Protect yourself! Please.
mamabear
You should definitely have a prenup, even if you want it to say that you agree to split everything 50/50. It’s just a smart thing to do. The main purpose of the one I did with my husband is to say that each of us keeps our 401Ks should we divorce. You don’t want to have to track down someone and share your retirement with them when you’re 65 (or more realistically, 67 to 70.)
cbackson
We didn’t have a pre-nup, because we both had limited assets going into our marriage. My ex-husband owned a home, but at the time of our divorce, there was no equity in it (underwater) so a pre-nup wouldn’t have made a difference as the value of the home didn’t affect our settlement.
I’m not bothered by the idea of pre-nups (particularly the “evaporating” style, which last only for the first 5 years of marriage or so), but I lived for a long time in a part of the world where marriage settlements/prenups were standard for folks at our income level and so I don’t think of them as a sign that OMG! UR MARRIAGE IS DOOOOOOMED.
Honey Bear
SS – I’m not married but I’m in a serious relationship and I don’t plan to get a prenup. However, I don’t really have any assets (I’m in big law but paying off my law school debt/credit card debt) and my boyfriend won’t really either (he’s currently a law student) if we got married in a few years. That being said, if I did have a nice savings account and owned a house, I would definitely consider getting a prenup. I understand it may not be the most romantic thing but as a risk adverse lawyer – rather to be safe than sorry!
Anon
I think there are times prenups make a lot of sense – particularly if there are children involved and there is a large disparity in resources – and then I think it is absolutely the right thing to do. Without those types of factors, though, it seems petty to me and i have always considered our assets “ours” regardless of who earned the money that paid for them. Neither of us had much when we married, and our incomes have become pretty disparate over time, but we do what we do as a team and i think that’s fair that it’s all “ours”. If you have a LOT of savings or equity that you want to protect in case something goes wrong, i suppose I could see it, but to me it wouldn’t be worth the prenup for, given that you’re likely to outstrip whatever you already have with your biglaw income .
g
I know I’m a little bit late in responding to this, but I just went through this process, and maybe my $.02 on the issue can be helpful to someone who reads this later on.
I would recommend thinking about how you want to structure your marital finances, think about what you would want done if you split, and then look to how the law in your state would divide up the property, and see how they match up. My husband and I realized about halfway through the process that we were just doing things the way the state would do it anyway, so it started to feel like just REALLY EXPENSIVE pre-marital counseling. I suppose we’re happy we have a document that will make things go a little smoother if we ever do split up, it probably wasn’t totally necessary. I’m not trying to talk people out of having a prenup–my husband wanted one and I was perfectly happy to go along with it–just that it may be worth sitting down with an attorney and talking about whether or not it’s even right for you.
Also, I hated my attorney. I have some family assets, so I went to my family lawyer because he already had a lot of the documentation we needed. Bad move. Through the whole process I felt like he was trying harder to protect my family’s interested than my own, and he really wouldn’t listen to me. I’m about to finish law school and was glad I had enough legal understanding to feel comfortable saying “No, THIS is what I want…”
So take that for what it’s worth, hope this helps!
hilary
Cute.
@Ss – as a lawyer I see the utility. As a person, I’d never sign one unless I had children from a previous relationship and I needed to protect their assets. My husband and I have our finances completely intermingled and we like it that way. I think it puts less strain on our relationship not to be thinking about what’s mine and what’s his. The way I see it prenups usually exist to protect the stronger party and not the weaker one, and I just don’t want that kind of dynamic on the homefront. But I guess everyone needs to do what they have to do and maybe your relationship works better another way.
Learned my lesson.
Just. Do it. No one wants to think about divorce when they’re getting married. But no one wants to think about death, and we all have life insurance right? Yes it’s a bummer but just get it done and you can forget all about it.
Learned my lesson.
meant to be a reply to the pre-nup conversation above, sorry!
Mille
Threadjack– Has there been any discussions on this site (or others) regarding rainmaking and marketing? I am an associate attorney, and the partners in our firm have decided that the associates need to 1. come up with a list of business and community groups that we will then 2. go to and introduce ourselves. I’ve been practicing for two years, starting with criminal defense, but now I practice family law and bankruptcy. We practice in a small community in a small state.
I need to come up with some ideas to make the partners happy. I’ve recently been in contact with local therapists to develop a list to give clients who are going through difficult times emotionally. I’ve had several bankrupcties referred through real estate agents, so am going to target more of those. Otherwise, I don’t know what to do. What else can I do to market myself or otherwise add value to the firm?
K
Mille, there is a local women’s center in my town and one of our family law attorneys gives a workshop there once a month on how to protect yourself and your children legally and financially before and during divorce. Perhaps one of those therapists knows of an organization where you could do the same? Not only does it expose her to the women who come to the workshop but she’s now on the board of the women’s center and is well known to their employees which help a lot with referrals. I think there is another attorney who teaches a bankruptcy questions and answers-type workshop there too.
Midori
Nursing homes might find your card helpful if you do guardianships or asset protection. People often think of family law only as divorce law, but there are a lot of family law issues that come with aging, too.
Tired Squared
Threadjack: Friend is having a baby. She didn’t plan it–in fact, she just found out and the father can only be her ex, who used to hit her. Thus she is happy yet scared, if that makes sense.
Would you all send a “Congrats” card or gift or something in this situation??
somewherecold
You said she’s happy about it, so I don’t see the harm in sending something. It would also be nice for her to know that you support her and are available to help her if she needs you.
K
“It would also be nice for her to know that you support her and are available to help her if she needs you.”
I totally agree with this.
Midori
Ditto.
Anonymous
I think so. Hope everything works out OK.
Jas
If she’s at least somewhat happy and keeping it, I think congratulations are good. Otherwise, if I were her and people were avoiding congratulating me, I would wonder if they thought it was something shameful or sad.
AnonInfinity
I would! Probably in the form of a call or email (and then get a gift for a shower if she has one, closer to due date if she does not). Even if her ex is a dirtbag, you said she has some happy feelings. I’d also make it clear that if she ever needs anything, I’d be available.
Lyssa
I would call her or see her in person. That way, you can say congrats, but also show that you are there to support her and help her if there’s anything that she needs.
Anne-on
I think if she is happy, and planning on keeping the baby, any show of congratulations and support from a friend would be lovely. I think a note expressing your support for her and willingness to chat about what she is experiencing would be especially welcome.
Eponine
This is the sort of situation where flowers are perfect.
Mille
Even if she isn’t happy about it, congratulate her. Especially if she isn’t happy. Having a baby is hard. (at least, it has been for me). It is scary and isolating and happy and wonderful all at the same time.
If you know the month she is due, you can get handmade necklaces on Etsy that say, for example, “Due in October”, that would make a great early gift to give now. I got myself several things on Etsy when I was pregnant– a blue lego necklace (I had a boy), a “peas in a pod” necklace, and a little blue felted bear that had a round tummy. Part of the beauty of having a baby is the time you spend pregnant. Remember, she doesn’t have the father celebrating the new baby, so it would be nice if you could bring a celebratory atmosphere to surround the baby with.
Also, I wouldn’t make too big a deal about her situation unless she brings it up. She probably has mixed emotions and doesn’t need someone to bring up the negatives. Being a single parent isn’t uncommon.
Also, she will need to talk to an attorney regarding custody and parenting time issues. If he was violent with her, she will need to make sure the court orders supervised parenting time for the father and that parenting time is contingent upon him completing a treatment program. If he is abusive, he will try to use the child to cause her more pain, and the court needs to be involved from the beginning.
One interesting thing I learned when I recently had my baby is that if a person has previously suffered violent attacks (I was sexually attacked in law school), it is often better to have a c-section to avoid triggering any panic or strong emotions related to the attack. When you go into labor, things suddenly happen to your body that you have no control over, and people are touching you, which can be traumatic.
naomi
Mille wrote:
“One interesting thing I learned when I recently had my baby is that if a person has previously suffered violent attacks (I was sexually attacked in law school), it is often better to have a c-section to avoid triggering any panic or strong emotions related to the attack. When you go into labor, things suddenly happen to your body that you have no control over, and people are touching you, which can be traumatic.”
Whether or not a c-section is the answer, I absolutely agree with Mille that special counseling is in order if a pregnant woman has a history of sexual abuse. Most ob/gyn/midwife intake forms ask about this. It is worth addressing this issue early in pregnancy and I heartily recommend Survivor Moms: Women’s Stories of Birthing, Mothering and Healing After Sexual Abuse, by Mickey Sperlich and Julia Seng.
Mille, congratulations on your baby! And good luck to the subject of the original comment.
belle
my sister had an accidental pregnancy, with a loser of an ex-BF. My mom and I were thrilled and immediately congratulated and sent support and offered to help. My father and my brothers were less supportive or made comments about the guy and the “accident”. Not only was it bad form, but it left lasting resentment for her. And she now feels her child is less appreciated b/c of those initial reactions.
Children are lovely and should be welcomed (and their mothers supported) – regardless of how they come about.
Honey Bear
I would send a card – and just focus on the positives of the situation. Or, you can wait until the baby shower to give a gift.
Tired Squared
Thank you all! I wanted to do something but I didn’t know if it was appropriate, but you all are right–children are certainly a blessing and the father shouldn’t get to take away from that (at least no more than he should).
And I definitely have some lawyer recommendations for when it becomes an issue.
mille
Also, now that I think about it, Mother’s day is coming up. I celebrated Mother’s Day while pregnant. Maybe it’s a great time to get a small gift or card.
Scully
I have a cotton pique suit from Classiques Entier that I love love love. It is so much more comfortable than wool for me.
I don’t know how I feel about the lack of a collar on this suit- somehow it takes away the power of a suit. Maybe if it was paired with a scarf…
Bonnie
This is definitely not a trial suit but would be great for quick matters in court on hot and muggy days.
Lynnet
Threadjack: I know we’ve had several threadjacks about this in the past few weeks, but I hope everyone won’t mind one more.
I interviewed for my dream position on March 31. I was told I’d hear back in “two to three weeks” or “Mid-to-Late April”. Is now about the time I should email them and ask about a decision? Or should I wait until the end of the month?
AnonInfinity
I would wait until the beginning of May, at the earliest.
Good luck!
Hollis
I would keep looking and interviewing for other positions. Once you land another one, you can use it as a reason to check back with them. While I could understand how hard it is to wait, your e-mailing or calling them is not going to make them give you and offer any earlier than when they are ready. Good luck!
Lynnet
My problem is that I’m graduating from law school. They’re in state A, which is my first choice state, but the job market in state A sucks, so if I don’t get this position, I’m going to take the bar in state B, which borders state A and has a much stronger job market. The final deadline for bar applications for both states is June 1. I obviously don’t want to share this plan with the firm I’ve applied with, but nor do I want to drop $500 on a 2nd bar application if I don’t hear from them before it’s due.
Also, both states are 1000+ miles from my school and my school has very few alums in either, and I’ve applied to pretty much everything in both states with no results. I’m going to move after the bar, and I think I’ll have a much better shot once I can network in person and people can see that I’m really serious about the area. At least, that’s what I keep telling myself.
Lynnet
And yes, I’m aware that this is a complete mess.
kz
state A & B don’t happen to be one of those cases where you can take both their bars at once, is it? (like NY & NJ). If so, you could just take both.
Lynnet
Unfortunately, no, both exams are on the same day.
AnonInfinity
I still think you should wait until the beginning of May. You can always get started on both apps, but if you contact at the beginning of May, you’ll still have a month before either app is due. If it’s getting to be mid-May and they’re dragging their feet, you could always let them know that you have to decide which state you’re taking the bar in. The fact that you’re in school out of state should signal to them that it’s not unreasonable that you could take the bar in a few different states.
The upside is that graduation is SOON!
Lynnet
Thanks everyone for the advice. I’m going to wait until the middle of next week to contact them.
MelD
I’d email them early next week. A lot of people take off this time of year for the holidays, kids’ spring breaks, etc. It may take a little longer than expected for a result.
Anne Shirley
Email them now. As long as this isn’t your 2nd or 3rd email checking in, it’s not like they will think- shucks! she was going to get this job but now that she asked about it, well, that’s a no then.
-from someone who took 2 bar exams last July, got a job, and had to take a 3rd exam in February.
Anon!
Oh, Lynnet, you and I are in the same boat. I also interviewed for a position on March 31st, but I was also called back for a second interview on April 14th. The HR rep told me that I should hear either last week or this week. The suspense is absolutely killing me, and I completely sympathize with your predicament.
P.
Starting to wonder if we’re all after the same gig :)
VA Gal
I’m another who had a Bigio Collection suit from Barrie Pace. I got it on a sale when I was a law clerk and since it was short-sleeved, I wore it every week during the warm weather months. It’s comfortable, lasted 6-7 years and probably would have gone longer if I hadn’t spilled coffee on it.
Omega
I stand corrected with respect to this dress. https://corporette.com/2011/04/15/frugal-fridays-tps-report-printed-dot-jersey-sheath-dress/#comments
I saw it in a store over the weekend and said, well let me just try it on. Liked how it fit and looked. Wore it to work today b/c I am going out directly from here. Still wondering if it was work appropriate this morning…but got two compliments today on it from colleagues.
Liz
Wow, I didn’t even think that was a suit jacket. In the photo it looked like a belted button-down blouse. But it WOULD be much more comfortable for summer.
Did anyone see this?
I’m British and thought it was interesting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/apr/27/telegraph-website-whose-boobs-are-these
Susie
SS: Its worth talking to a lawyer. I’m in Texas as well, and it is a community property state, but property owned before the marriage remains separate property, so your house will remain yours. Now, if you sell it during the marriage, the appreciation in value might have to be prorated between separate and community. If you have a big chunk in savings, it might be a good idea to keep that account separate and put any savings during the marriage into a new account. Good luck!
anon
I bought a white cotton pique blazer from Talbots last summer that wrinkled horribly, and stretched out in the elbows, the only time I wore it. It looked like a dishrag by the end of the day, never wore it again. And it wasn’t cheap. Was that just a fluke as far as cotton pique goes? Do other people find that cotton pique holds up well and doesn’t wrinkle?
Anonymous
H and I just got married a few months ago. Both lawyers, no debt other than our homes, salaries are comparable, etc. We didn’t discuss a prenup until our minister brought it up during our premarital counseling. Interestingly enough, he said he wouldn’t marry us if we did have a prenup (because we weren’t entering into the marriage with the intention of making it work long term). Go figure.
shrink
PSA Macy’s has tons of short-sleeved suits on sale and regular priced. I don’t find myself a fan of short or 3/4 sleeved anythign, but for those who do… They also have tons of racks of suits w/long sleeves from $140 and lower. This seemed, this morning, to include their “business dresses” (read sheaths) from Calvin Klein.
Sarah
I just bought this suit at a sample sale for $100, saw it was widely available for $300 and would have suggested this for a TPS had I not searched and seen that it’s already been featured. I like how it fits. It runs big — I have broad shoulders and generally can’t wear a size 6 jacket, but this fit me.
I got another cute Bigio shirt dress (green, belted, double-breasted) at the same sale for $90, but can’t find it on the Internet anywhere.