Suit of the Week: Nanette Lepore

85 Comments

1. Head to toe white? That would last about five seconds on me before it became either (unlikely) “stylin’ Rorschach blot-type pattern” or (much more likely) simply coffee stain city.

   1. Pretty much!

2. Ohooo the wrap skirt slit issue reminds me of a VERY unfortunate workwear purchase I made last summer. Let’s just say fitting rooms should have an option to simulate city winds. If you’re ever on the fence about a wrap skirt, put it through a rigorous test before you take the risk!

   That skirt was less structured than this one, but it was a one-wear wonder. Gone but not forgotten, especially–probably–by my colleagues.

   1. Yikes! Good lesson for us all.

   2. I find this a particular problem with jersey wrap styles. I keep them on by holding firmly with both hands!

      This is a gorgeous-looking suit, though!

   3. I’m also not quite sure about Kat’s advise to have a tailor “fill in” the mid-thigh gap on the skirt with lace. If the area is inappropriate to expose without fabric, then lace won’t help make it more appropriate!

      1. oops meant “advice” =)

      2. Agree, fresh jd. I try to minimize the amount of lace worn to work anyway, and having it show through a slit, and in white/cream no less, seems to push the “boudoir” factor over my personal limit for work wear.

         …still a gorgeous suit though…

      3. I’d think a flash of silk in a complementary, muted color that is different than the wearer’s skin tone could be really nice, maybe a blue.

      4. I think lace would make it worse.

      5. Also agreed. But bear in mind, Kat works in a creative industry where that sort of thing may not get you unwanted attention.

         Outside of work, the lace could work for a party, reception, etc. type of social event.

         In the conservative business world, both the wrap and the lace would not be recommended.

   4. I use a safety pin to hold the wrap skirt part together, around mid thigh or lower. But for a suit – not sure it would help….and I’d hate lace on a skirt-suit.

3. Early threadjack, sorry. I groused last week about my job situation (not enough work, I only get paid when the clients pay, which is not enough) and frustrations. Well, now I have an actual question (and apologize for the lengthy background):

   I’m in a mid-sized city with a small legal community (i.e., you tend to see the same lawyers over and over again). My first summer of L.S., 2007, , I clerked for a largish firm and loved it. Good size, really nice folks, areas of law that I have always wanted to practice. I’ve never heard anything to indicate that my work was less than fine that summer- the man who was in charge of hiring then went on and on about how great my writing was; I’ve spoken to a number of the attorneys that I was friendly with on a regular basis and they’ve always said that they would really like to see me back and were giving high recommendations. They told us that summer, though, that they sort of have a make-it-up-as-they-go summer hiring practice, so not to take it personally if we weren’t hired back the next summer. The hiring manager changed right around that time, too.

   Well, I wasn’t hired back the next summer (to the best of my knowledge, no one else in my class was, either). Oh, well, got 2 other (split) summer spots despite the fact that the you-know-what was hitting the fan, economically speaking, at that time. Third year, I signed up for OCI with that firm again, was selected for OCI, but didn’t get called back in for a call-back interview.

   Life went on, I got a clerkship (same town) for the year after law school. Continued to see attorneys from that firm around and get a lot of positive encouragement about how they’d like to see me return. I applied, got a nice, personal letter from the new hiring manager, but not an offer.

   Now, I’m in an attorney group that meets monthly (Inns of Court). Last meeting, who did I happen to eat with but the hiring manager (not the one who raved about my writing, the newer one, but to the best of my knowledge this one liked me fine, too). He asked about my practice, what kind of law I was working on, the usual small talk. I’m a positive sort of person, so I felt obligated to say that I was enjoying it and doing interesting things (which is true, there’s just not enough of it, and there’s no real way to practice the type of law that I always dreamed of practicing in a small setting like that). Of course, all I could think of, though, was that I really wanted to come work with him. But, after that many rejections, I just couldn’t figure out what I could say that wouldn’t just seem desparate.

   So, there you have it. My question is, if I should get a similar opportunity, what can I say, or what should I have said, that might put me on his radar without making me sound desparate or making my firm look bad (since I’m still hoping that things will pick up there). Or is it time to just let this one go?

   1. Why not take the opportunity to drop the hiring partner a note/e-mail, saying how much you enjoyed chatting with him, and letting him know that if any opportunities open up at the firm, you’d be interested?

      1. Do you think it’s too late now (this conversation was about 2 weeks ago)?

         1. No, go for it! I don’t think it could hurt!

         2. Hmmm. Maybe so. It’s easier a day or two afterwards, to say “great to have seen you!” and “by the way….” On the other hand, if you REALLY want to work at this firm again, you could spin it differently. Say that since you saw him at the meeting a couple of weeks ago, you’ve really been thinking a lot about how much you enjoyed your summer there, and for that reason you just wanted to let him know to keep you in mind if any positions become available.

         3. I don’t think two weeks is too long. Even if it were “too” long, it sounds like you really want to make a move. It wouldn’t make sense to miss an opportunity just because you waited two weeks rather than a week and a half.

            If you’re looking for a good way to frame wanting to leave a current job, I’d say something along the lines of “While I love the people and am getting good experience, its just not the right fit”. You could also tacitly acknowledge that there isn’t enough work (quite common in this economy).

            Anyway, I vote for sending the e-mail above. Make sure to focus on how much you liked their firm and don’t spend too much time on why you’re leaving your current firm. Hiring managers get contacts like this all the time…

         4. Not sure if you’re still reading these comments, but no, I don’t think two weeks is too long to follow-up. My rule of thumb, for connections made at Inn meetings, is that you have until the NEXT meeting to get in touch/use the social capital from the previous month. Following-up right after the meeting tends to make people think that you’re using the Inn just for job hunting.

         5. Not at all. Email him.

4. Strangely enough, showing a bit of thigh in my NYC law firm isn’t considered inappropriate. In fact, there are two women partners who routinely wear sleeveless sheaths, tight pencil skirts, etc., always with spike heels … with the result that a lot of the younger women associates have begun emulating them. I find it all a bit strange, though I’m sure the male attorneys have no complaints. But it’s turned the females into sex objects first, attorneys second.

   Is this a trend anywhere else?

   1. Yes, the same is true in my D.C. office. I just don’t understand it. I keep seeing the partners and associates and thinking “that would look great one size up with an extra three inches on the skirt length and something below a 4-inch heel.” I also think maybe it’s part them and part me — a Brooks Brothers sweater, pants, and flats girl.

   2. I have noticed hemlines creeping up, but I’ve only noticed it in the winter when paired with dark tights or tall boots. So I’m wondering if they’re working on the “dark tights make it ok” theory since it’s been cold, or if I’ll still be noticing shorter skirts when warm weather gets here.

   3. you know, i think its just all in the eye of the beholder. Although Im not a fan of short skirts, I rarely wear a heal shorter than 4 inches and i think flats are totally inappropriate for work (save being pregnant or injured), especially with a suit.

      That said, people can wear what they want, what makes them feel confident, and presumably something that doesnt interfere with their work.

      1. I agree about the 4 inch heel v. flat thing for sure!

      2. Why are flats totally inappropriate for work?

         1. They’re not.

            1. Agreed. Some coaches recommend nothing over 2″ because they give you a more dynamic stance.

               Men are far less likely to look at you mainly as a sex object when you are not teetering around on spike heels.

               That said, stilettos send a message about what kind of work you do.

               On the one hand, that message can be unfortunate as it has sex industry ties, on the other hand it says loud and clear that you do not do manual labor of any kind.

         2. That concept is just totally ridiculous, I’m sorry. There are professional flats and it is perfectly appropriate to wear them. While heels often look nicer, the idea that women HAVE to wear heels to be appropriate for work really rubs me the wrong way. And I wear heels most the time (attorney who is too lazy to hem my pants so I can wear cute flats).

            1. As is the concept that 4 inch heels are “stripper shoes” or otherwise inappropriate. I personally think that flats, while beautiful on many occasions, do not look appropriate for work and are simply too casual in all but an office that allows casual dress. But that’s the beauty of having diferences of opinion. You can keep wearing flats and I can keep wearing heels (spiked or otherwise), and we can co-exist wonderfully.

            2. Same here, in addition to being uncomfortable and impractical, I think the idea that women should wear shoes that often create permanant, debilitating medical issues if they want to be taken seriously is disturbingly misogynistic.

               Note, Anonymous, b23 and others who might agree, I’m not trying to call you misogynists. Given our cultural and societal attitudes towards women, clothes, and high heels in particular, I’m not sure it’d even be wrong to suggest that heels look more professional than flats. I just object to the overall cultural idea.

      3. I, on the other hand, think 4 inch heels are too tall for work. They just look like stripper shoes to me. And yes, I am wearing flats today :) (although I do normally wear heels).

         1. As a tall girl, saying that flats are inappropriate just seems wrong, sorry. I don’t need to TOWER over everyone, everyday. I do wear heels often, but they are low.

            Also, I’d have to say that most male lawyers I know look at girls walking in super talls heels and think either (1) why are you wearing heels that tall when you’re supposed to be working and supposed to be able to move (which could include carrying boxes to/from court); or (2) why are you wearing shoes you can’t walk in (if you are not one of the VERY few who can walk in super tall heels. Baby deer steps does not mean you can strut in them).

      4. I am always surprised at how strongly women feel about shoes. I work in a business casual environment and generally anything goes. I feel more confident in heels, including 4,” so I wear them. Peep-toes and boots are acceptable in my environment, so I wear them and love them both, but I do not wear them when seeing clients or having important meetings. I do see lots of women in cute, professional flats, and I wish they worked on me.

         My only rules about shoes (business and casual): 1)No clear shoes and 2) your toes should not hang over the front of the shoe/sandal.

      5. As a 5’9″+ female associate who already towers over a fair number of partners at my firm, I would feel utterly ridiculous in 4″-inch heels. (I’ve owned one pair, which made it out of the closet exactly once for a date.)

         I prefer heels in the 2-3″-inch range, but I am so thankful for flats since I have a foot issue that means heels are simply not an option on certain days. On those days, I make sure that the rest of my attire goes with the flats. I can’t imagine who would think I didn’t look professional and polished.

         1. I’m also 5’9, but I love being tall, so I keep my 3-4″ heels most days. They make my legs look great, and make me feel attractive and more confident. To each her own! Of course, I usually spend 95% of my day at a desk, so it’s not entirely impractical or overly hazardous to my foot health.

            On a related note: One of my coworkers is probably pushing 6′, and she often wears high heels AND short skirts. I think tall women have to be more careful about that– it’s just so much more skin sticking out compared to our petite counterparts, and to me it gets inappropriate very quickly. Especially on the majority of us who are not model-thin. Yikes. I make sure to pair my higher heels with either pants or a skirt to the knee. No exceptions!

            1. I don’t think flats look bad as long as they are paired with pants that aren’t dragging the ground. I see this look a lot among women who wear flats and it looks like they just want to be comfortable and don’t care about their appearance.

         2. I am not tall and am with you.

            I am uncomfortable in flats. The lowest heel I wear for work is about 3/4″. I work for a consultancy. That means I sometimes work at client sites of all kinds and need to dress apprirately for a wide range of environments. At some sites heels and suits are inappropriate.

            When I do wear heels at HQ, 3″ is my maximum in height.

            And yes, I used to wear the 4″ heels and yes I have damage from them.

      6. Well, it depends on the type of flat. Some flats have excessive ornamentation and embellishments and hence, they are unsuitable for office wear. Same goes for ballet flats, which look just plain casual and doesn’t really match with a suit. I’ve seen some really nice looking, structured flats with a buckle over the vamp.

         Some women have been ordered by their doctors to avoid high heels due to their foot issues. Personally, I stick clear of pointy or narrow heels higher than 2 inches to avoid developing problems with my foot later in life (Who wants bunions? Yuck).

   4. Real Estate. Showing cleavage, thigh, etc. is pretty much expected in some offices. Especially on the sales side.

   5. This is all too common where I live in Singapore. High hemlines, strappy stuff etc (business casual) but then I guess people here are so slim (US2-6) that maybe they think they can pull it off? or they don’t think about it? They look great but not office-appropriate-great:)

      1. I think more young, hot male attorneys should come to the office in tank tops. I love me some nice, muscle-bound arms!

5. Threadjack:
   I was invited to a weekday evening event for a professional friend’s non-profit org. It’s tonight. One reason I was asked was because the chair of the board of another non-profit that I’ve been nominated to join will be there and my friend thought that it would be a great opportunity to get to know her before my nomination was finalized. My friend (male) told me the dress was typical after work wear and that guys wear suits without ties. Well, I just checked the website and they have pictures from last year’s events. The guys are all in ties and the women are in non-formal cocktail-is dresses. Yikes! I’m in a grey pinstriped pant suit with a sea foam, silk shell. I don’t really have time to run to the mall or home since I’m leaving the office early for this thing as it is…. I’m panicking. Should I try to sqeeze some time to run to the mall or do you think I’ll be alright!?! It’s events like this that make me wish I was a man – so simple for them! TIA!!

   1. I think you should probably try to leave early if at all possible. It sounds like you’ll be very uncomfortable if not, particularly since you’re trying to make a good impression. If you were wearing a skirt suit, you If not, hold your head high!

      1. Sorry, my comment got cut off. I meant to say that you might be okay if you were wearing a skirt suit, and that if you absolutely don’t have time, then hold your head high!

   2. I think you will be fine. Maybe the cocktail dress ladies are ladies who didn’t come straight from the office. I find that most of the women at weekday evening professional events I go to are in a permutation of what you’re wearing – suit bottoms and jacket, and they take off the jacket to reveal a pretty silk top. Somewhat more interesting jewelry (which perhaps you can borrow from a coworker??) and stronger-color makeup (which you could even pick up at a CVS on the way as needed) is usually the only difference than regular office wear. The women in cocktail dresses are often the +1s of the men in suits.

      1) The men won’t notice what you wear (obviously, given your friend!); they’ll only notice any lack of confidence, so hold your head high :). 2) Most women won’t care. If you start to feel uncomfortable, you can say “Gosh, I had to come straight from the office! What a busy day I had! I’m so happy to now be here at this great event! *big smile* So, what’s your favorite thing about this organization?”

   3. I wouldn’t bat an eyelash at your outfit even in a sea of cocktail dressed women. Go with confidence and enjoy yourself!

   4. Are you sure that the women in the cocktail dresses aren’t someone’s date? I think that is entirely possible and even likely, and I think you will be fine in what you are wearing. In fact, I would want to avoid dressing like the women who are there as someone’s date, because you don’t want the men there to think that that is your role.

      1. Also, if you do decide to run out and get something, I would go with a simple black sheath dress. That way, it will not be totally obvious whether you just came in what you wore to work or intended to be more “cocktaily.”

   5. I had to wear a pantsuit to an event at a country club bar hosting a “dance club” night. I was there with friends and most people were wearing jeans or clubbing clothes. At first I felt totally out of place. Then I realized my outfit was an ice breaker. Lots of people came over to talk to me, ask me about my “busy day,” if I was in court today, etc. I found it gave me a lot of credibility. It isn’t something I could pull off at all of the events but for that one time deal it turned out fine.

      1. This reminds me of the time I got stuck at work late and had to show up at a friend’s band’s (rock) concert on the lower east side on a Friday night in a pantsuit with a button-down shirt that could in no way adapt to a night-out outfit. I just got myself a gin and tonic and rocked it.

   6. Meh, it’s a weeknight and you’re a professional girl. Nobody is going to bat an eye, and if they do, it will totally make sense for you to say work was just crazy today.

      If you’ve got time to pick up some bolder eye makeup and a statement necklace or earrings, go for it. Otherwise, just own what you’ve got.

   7. Thanks ladies! I ended up rocking what I had on and just put my hair up, found some chunkier earrings in my car and touched up my eyes and I felt just fine. Turns out you were all right (of course). The ones in cocktail dresses were either someone’s date or were working the event. Now I know!

6. Lovely suit but I agree with the head-to-toe white issue. Speaking of which does anyone have tips for keeping white clean/cleaning whites besides dry cleaning? I have a white blazer that I love but it gets dirty so easily.
   Also I bought those suede wedges from Target that people were talking about and after a half dozen wears or so, the heel tip(?) broke off and the suede got ripped at the edges. I suppose since it’s Target, there’s not much of a point in trying to take it back for an exchange?

7. FYI – the skirt is a faux wrap with the usual zipper and clasp at the back. Because the slit is on-seam, my first approach to fixing the skirt would be to see how narrow the skirt would be if you just closed it. It looks though like there might be a diagonal line of top-stitching to reinforce the top of the slit – which would blow my plan.

8. Am I the only one here who thinks the slit is actually not that bad? Looking at the skirt on the model, the skirt is an appropriate length and the slit doesn’t go up very high. Apart from the fact that this is screaming white and I would spill something down it in an instant, I don’t think this is work-inappropriate at all.

   1. I think the slit is totally fine, and the idea of adding lace would just trash it up and make it look hooker-ish.

   2. No- I have a knee-length skirt with a similar slit that I wear fairly regularly. I don’t see how this slit is worse than a back slit- I’ve seen skirts with back slits that go up way higher and find those more inappropriate than a tiny side slight.

      1. I think the differences might be that a front slit opens more when you walk then a back slit, and may also have the potential of gaping open when you sit (whereas a back slit would be hidden between you and the chair). But I’m just speculating.

      2. Plus, with a back slit, the wearer has no idea how high the slit is riding. With a front slit, at least the wearer will notice and can take steps to mitigate any unfortunate exposures (safety pins might be handy for the first wear…)

9. I don’t think it’s tragic either. The model is standing in a way to emphasize the slit.

10. I echoed someone else’s request for books about Wall Street a couple of weeks ago and didn’t get many responses. A friend of mine gave me a recommendation last night, so I thought I’d share. It’s called Liar’s Poker. I just looked it up on Amazon, and it gets great reviews. I haven’t personally read it, but it sounds like a good choice.

    1. Liar’s Poker is a good choice for sure. It’s a bit dated but still relevant, particularly to the Wall Street culture. Michael Lewis is an excellent writer, and I love his articles for Vanity Fair. He also wrote “The Big Short” about the latest meltdown. It was pretty easy to read and interesting.

       I didn’t see your previous comment, so I don’t know exactly what you are looking for, but here’s what I would recommend:
       Panic (also by Michael Lewis)
       House of Cards (William Cohan) about the fall of Bear Sterns
       Lords of Finance (Liaquat Ahamed)
       Fool’s Gold (Gillian Tett)

       I also read a good book about the collapse of Lehman Brothers, but I can’t think of the name. I’ll post it if I remember it.

       Hope that helps.

    2. Other People’s Money by Nomi Prins

       Excellent.

    3. LOVE Liar’s Poker. It is a great way to understand some of what happened with the financial meltdown in 08/09 because it is basically about the beginnings of mortgage-backed securities. But it’s absolutely hilarious and totally relatable. Love it.

       Another one I would recommend is Barbarians at the Gate, which is about the takeover of RJR Nabisco in the 1980s. Basically a portrait of massive hubris and bad judgment. I learned a lot about business from that book.

       Others I can recommend:
       Den of Thieves (insider trading)
       The Predator’s Ball (about the collapse of Drexel Burnham and the junk-bond boom of the 80s)
       Conspiracy of Fools (the best book about Enron – “The Smartest Guys in the Room” is a better as a documentary than a book, IMO)
       I also recommend Busted: Life Inside the Great Mortgage Meltdown as a further explanation of the recent mortgage crisis, although the book made me crazy in a way; the author (an NYT economics reporter, no less) got a huge “liar’s loan” mortgage and went into default on it, and abdicates a lot of his own personal responsibility – but that’s another story. :)

       Hope that helps. I actually went back a few years ago and read a lot about some of the 1980s financial-scandal stuff I was too young to understand when it happened. My only caveat is that reading some of those 80s books about Wall Street will depress you, because very little has actually changed in terms of controls and lessening of greed.

    4. Too Big to Fail – Sorkin

       I also loved Gillian Tett’s book recommended above.

       1. I second Too Big to Fail. Loved that one in particular if you’re looking for an insider-y global financial crisis book.

    5. Beating the Street by Peter Lynch will cure you of ever wanting to be a day trader.

    6. read Monkey Business – all about investment banking.

11. Threadjack.

    Resume question. I am a fourth year IP associate looking to move on from my current firm. I would really like land an in-house position but am looking at firms too. In editing and perfecting my resume, I am having a hard time balancing the list everything you’ve ever done versus be general and emphasize accomplishments only. I have seen both junior associate (including every they have worked on) and partner resumes (very generic), and I don’t think either are right for me as a mid-level. Advice?

    1. Do you have an online firm bio that lists cases and matters you’ve worked on? If so, I suspect that you could steer people to that for the exhaustive list and put only the stuff you’re really proud of on your resume. Caveat: I’ve never seen anyone do this, so I may be totally off base!

    2. Hey. If I was looking to hire an IP associate, I would want examples of things that you did that would be relevant in-house.

       So, for example, don’t bother telling me about document review. Don’t care. Instead, tell me about being involved in negotiation to settle a case. That kind of thing.

       Good luck! The move is worth the (usual) pay cut. :)

12. Looking at this suit I am suddenly longing to be far east asian! White looks so beautiful with that model’s skin, and is an absolute no-no for a ruddy-cheeked ginger like myself.

    1. I rock white but would kill for red hair (any shade!)….

13. Another threadjack: just wanted to say thanks to whoever posted here about the Dallas Groupon for Carissa Rose. Let me show some love for the brand here (and I am in no way affiliated with the brand!) I ordered two shirts, and they’re great. It is so liberating to be able to wear a nice, crisp white button down that fits around the waist, and not worry about flashing anyone! There was a slight problem with my order, and the company’s customer service fixed it politely and promptly. That’s my unpaid product endorsement for the day.

    Pretty suit but I cannot imagine wearing that much white.

    Glad you’re back, Kat!

    1. Missed all the Corporettes yesterday.

14. Could not log on here at all yesterday. FF or IE.

    Now as to the suit: On the close up it look like that slit is a hot mess. This would be so much cuter with the double vent opening in the back seams. But yes, love the jacket (even with the 3/4 sleeve which are not my favourite).

    I don’t have the guts to wear an all white suit but envy those who can (with class).

15. As long as we’re talking about skirt slits, maybe you Corporettes can help me. I have a suit that I got on sale at Benetton a few years ago and I can’t for the life of me figure out how the skirt is supposed to go. The slit is on the opposite side from the zipper. So I either put the zipper in the back like normal, which leaves me with a slit dead center in the front, or I zipper it in the front like pants, which puts the zipper at the back. the problem is that it seems to sit better with the zipper in back and slit in front. So, since I got it on sale and couldn’t return it, I’ve just been wearing the pants and the skirt sits in the closet unloved and I feel like a moron who doesn’t know how to operate a skirt.

    1. Are you sure the zipper isn’t supposed to be on the side so that there is zipper on one side, slit on one side?

       1. Yeah, I tried it on the side, but then the skirt bulged out in front and back on the seams, presumably where it was meant to accommodate hips and a waist.

    2. Is there a tag in the waistband of the skirt? I usually default to wearing the tag in the back. Hopefully that will leave the slit on the side or at the back…I can’t imagine wearing a slit in the front of my suit skirt!

    3. Front slits were the “it thing” a few years ago. If the darting is clearly such that the zipper and slit go front/back, not side/side, then yes, the slit is supposed to go in the front. It wasn’t a look that many women could pull off, or liked, which is why it’s dead now. (Hopefully forever.)

       You could have a tailor close the slit if that will make the skirt wearable for you. My biggest concern would be how dated a front slit would look.

       1. I’m not quite sure why I didn’t notice the slit when I first bought the suit. Looks like it’s off to Salvation Army it goes!

16. What is the current thinking on suits? I was in an AmLaw 100 firm for years and wore only court-appropriate suits outside the office. Dark, tailored, skirts to the knee, long-sleeved jackets, modest (ie, round neck) tops underneath. Stockings and closed toe, full-back pumps.

    Recently, I see 3/4 length sleeves on so many suits (including this Nanette Lapore). I am petite, and I am very active at work (rifling through papers and boxes and typing), so shorter sleeves are very comfortable for me. But they just don’t seem appropriate.

    Monday I was at an ABA event for female managing partners of firms and female GCs. No court appropriate suits (though, of course, we were not in court). GCs of major corporations were wearing separates, where the jacket and the pants/skirt went together, but were not the same color or fabric. And I saw lots of 3/4 length sleeves.

    Am I an old fogey? Has anyone else noticed this? Comments?

17. I am a female GC aof a midsized company and a former law firm partner, and I don’t think twice about wearing a suit with 3/4 length sleeves or sporting bare legs and peeptoes in the summer The only place where I would expect my outside counsel to wear ultra-conservative suits (and hose and closed-toe pumps) is in front of a jury.

    I am not and have never been a separates person, but if the pieces went together (Stacy and Clinton say they should “go” but need not match!) I wouldn’t think they were inappropriate. The exception again is in front of a jury.

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