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Updated: Mar 23, 2023 340 Comments · by

Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Tarianna Shirtdress

The Personal Shopper (TPS) | ·

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A woman wearing a red shirtdress and red sandals

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I’m currently working on a project that involves a bunch of effortlessly chic women in their 50s and 60s, and I’m pretty sure they all have some version of this dress in their closet: a bold-colored, figure-flattering shirtdress with one or two beautiful details.

This red number from Hobbs London has a tie waist that gives it a perfect shape, while the bright red color projects a confidence and self-assuredness that may or may not be real. (Fake it till you make it, am I right?) I would add a navy blazer for a more formal office or some fun jewelry and shoes for a more casual vibe.

The dress is $290 at Nordstrom and comes in U.S. sizes 2–16.

A couple of more affordable options are from Standards & Practices (plus sizes, $98) and Mango (straight sizes, $79.99); both are available at Nordstrom.

Sales of note for 9.30.24

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Josie P

    I just can’t with shirtdresses. This one has the exact same shape as the one I wore when I played Mrs. MacAfee in Bye Bye Birdie when I was in middle school.

    • Anon

      I’m like that, especially if it has a self-belt that ties. My mom sewed and I think she saw a self-belt that ties what a novice does, especially if the dress has no shaping in the waist. Mom could buy the buckle kit in the notions section of the fabric department at Newberry’s (area discount store on two floors of an old storefront with actual wood floors) and make an actual belt more tailored for the actual wearer, so I know why that feels sharper to me.

      At any rate, I have an eBay EVF Prita shirtdress that is more of a column with roll-up sleeves (with a button and tab). Even through it has the self-belt that tends to slip b/c it is silk, I much more like that for my shape. I feel less Donna Reed in it (and while Donna Reed is great, I’m just not going to be able to pull that off).

    • Anonymous

      Yeah, it’s been done to death for decades. This one is supposed to resemble the style worn in the 50s and 60s…

    • anon

      Despite really loving classic styles, the shirtdress does not do it for me. I like the color of this one, though.

      • pugsnbourbon

        The color is gorgeous! I really like it but it reads more “party” than “work” to me.

        • Mouse

          I think they can be perfect for events that are on the line between party and work. A few years ago, I was invited to a Saturday event at one of the embassies in London. The cultural attaché had my email because I’d been to an event there for my work, but I wasn’t invited in my *work* capacity – plus it was boiling hot. A shirt dress ended up being the perfect thing – not too casual, not too formal.

    • No Face

      I am in love with shirt dresses and wear them as much as possible. Different strokes!

  2. Navy tote

    I’m looking for a structured navy tote bag for work to replace a Cuyana tote that has served me well, but looks tired. I would buy another, but for some reason they aren’t making navy. Any recommendations? I think I would prefer to go a little higher end this time, but don’t like conspicuous branding, so no TB, Coach, etc. Budget is up to $1000.

    • Anon

      I bought a second hand navy Celine Cabas Phantom for around $800. It does take patience to find the color you want in good condition.

      • Anne-on

        +1 – the old Phoebe Philo Celines (which I adore) are truly going for a song right now on the secondhand sites. I also believe they’re more likely to be real given that there isn’t a huge demand.

        • Anokha

          Man, I’m so paranoid about buying expensive purses given all the stories about how good knock-offs have gotten (see, e.g., ” The Rich New York Women Who Love Their Fake Birkins” on The Cut). That said, also love Celine + Phoebe Philo.

    • Anon

      I’d rethink navy leather, I think there’s a reason you can’t find it . . .

      • OP

        Lol. I was thinking this too, but most of my work clothes are navy based and I hate brown so what is the alternative? For example, if I’m wearing navy pants, navy shoes, and a light blue knit.

        • Anon

          If you want a navy bag get a navy bag! I’m not here to stop you. I love navy.

          But I don’t have a navy laptop bag despite wearing navy 75% of the time. My other neutral is gray, and sometimes I wear black (trying to phase it out of my wardrobe but still have those perfect black pants…) so I have two Cuyana totes – an open top tote in Stone for most of the year, and a zip top in a burgundy/cordovan color for the winter-y weather. I also tend to wear more tan, bone, and other light colored shoes in warm weather, but mostly wear navy or black shoes in winter.

          • test run

            +1 Burgundy is the answer here if you don’t like brown (assuming this includes camel/cognac leather which is my go-to as someone whose wardrobe is like 120% navy blue). Gray is also pretty, but I don’t love it in leather as much (compared to a Longchamp Le Pliage or something else in nylon).

          • Anon

            I suggested Camel, as a fellow hater of brown, I see tan and camel as a very different color, 😆

        • anon

          I think if you are wearing navy clothes, you actually shouldn’t get a navy bag. That’s way too matchy matchy. Camel, gray, forest green, burgundy. The Mulberry bayswater tote in pale grey would look very nice.

    • Anon

      Longchamp Penelope Large tote (make sure you’re getting the large) secondhand. It came in an absolutely beautiful dark blue.

    • Anonymous Canadian

      I keep recommending Knomo London, specifically the Grosvenor Place laptop bag. I DK if anyone else on this board has one but I love mine. Excellent quality, light and great service.

  3. Anonymous

    I know we’ve had some major money changes on this board – I’m 37, no kids, just divorced. Will be good in the long run, but part of what led to it was finding out DH’s debts and money issues. My savings are now depleted. Now I am looking at making half as much this year as I pay off “my” share of the debts. Any major lifestyle shift recommendations as I get used to single life but also less money?

    • Anonymous

      The two biggies for me beyond rent and cars and things that are harder to change are eating at home and not traveling. A frozen pizza in the freezer is way cheaper than take out. And even just a weekend away costs so much money. I also try and plan on spending on one thing per weekend. Drinks out or a meal with friends or a rare delivery moment or a pedicure, never and.

    • Anonymous

      Cut out everything you can’t absolutely live without. Decide how uncomfortable you are willing to be and get rid of everthing else.

    • Anon

      Ugh, I’m so sorry.

      The money advice is the no fun stuff that you already know. Focus on slashing your big ticket expenses (housing, car/transportation, travel, expensive monthly dues). Now’s the time to strongly consider a studio apartment or roommates. Consider if selling your car and buying a much older vehicle or public transportation is worth it. No traveling for a while. Cut out the gym, cable, membership dues if you have them.

      Would strongly encourage living super cheaply for 2-3 years to knock off these bills and build savings so you can have the rest of your life back. It SUCKS though.

      • Anon

        +1

        Live really, really simply for a few years, in a very small place. If you need to, ask a friend who owns a house if you can store boxes in their basement/garage/attic until you get on your feet, to save the cost of a storage facility.

        The up side of living is a small place is it easier to clean and utilities are much cheaper.

        You can do this.

        There are free things to do to socialize with friends – check the local websites/papers for your town. Going for walks, picnics, getting coffee instead of going out for dinner, just asking to stop by where they live to chat. Library and reading and checking out free videos (movies +TV shows). Maybe do a side gig or volunteer if you feel you have free time. Nice way to make more $$ and meet more people and not dwell in your situation.

        And congratulations on your freedom from your husband!!! You are almost there…

    • Anon

      Think about where your money leaks are. Subscriptions you aren’t using or enjoying, gourmet food you just normally throw in the cart, expensive coffee, etc. Delete shopping apps from your phone and unsubscribe from shopping emails. Look at some of the bigger expenses, shop your car/rental/house/umbrella insurance around for example.

    • Anon

      Been there — got divorced at 33 with a small child, ex made 4x my salary so it was a lifestyle adjustment (even with child support).

      Write down everything you spend, down to the penny.
      Make a list of free or cheap things you enjoy doing — at home and out of the house. Every time you want to do something that is basically spending money (shopping, antiquing, expensive restaurant, etc), look on your list and find something else that scratches the same itch. I became a regular at a quiet neighborhood cocktail bar and friendly with the bartender and a couple of other regulars, so I would go and have a drink and hang out for a couple of hours without spending a ton of money. I would have dinner at home first, and would sometimes just bring a book.
      Do not buy a ton of new clothes. It is tempting to reinvent your style right now, but don’t. There will be time to do that when you feel better about your financial position. Simplify your grooming routine if it costs a lot — I realized I was spending 300-500 a month on that kind of stuff. Keep the 1-2 things that you really care about so you don’t feel deprived (for me that was nails and haircuts — I stopped doing highlights, regular facials, waxing, buying tons of skincare products).
      Don’t be afraid to date if you want to. Everyone told me to “take some time to be alone”, but I was alone for years in my marriage, and I wanted companionship, flirting, and gardening. I’m glad I did! I had fun for a few years and ended up meeting someone great and getting married again (not my goal, but got lucky). Use your free/cheap activities list to come up with date ideas — I’m not a fan of letting men pay for me unless we are taking turns.

    • Anonymous

      How much debt are we talking? Advice for working down $15k vs $100k is a lot different. You can chip away at the smaller amount but if it’s a high 5-figure number, you might want to make some temporary lifestyle changes and throw every last penny at the debt. Move/ take in a roommate, ditch a car, basically design a budget where you are living bare minimum. Consider a second/side job (are you in an area where you can pick up a job shuttling kids around to sport practices? I pay an adult $25/hr to do this which is $50 cash for 20 minutes of driving and then waiting around during practices).
      If you are moving as part of the divorce, do not buy any new furniture. Also put a freeze on clothing.
      If it were me I would want the debt gone as fast as humanly possible, and I would make paying down the debt my “hobby” but others may be less inclined to make it happen that quickly.

      • Anon

        Side hustles (when used alongside a job) are underrated. Tutors, babysitters, and people who drive kids can make good money.

        Only other thing I would add is to give yourself a certain amount of time to go all-in on the debt – roommate, side hustle, cutting clothing spending, cutting eating out. It might look like “roommate for two years, no new clothing for a year, side hustle for a year.” Not to say you can’t keep it up after that! It’s just people get discouraged when it feels like forever, and tackling the debt early >> tackling it later.

    • Anonymous

      I was in a very similar position five years ago. Honestly, I’m still digging out of the debt, though I’m almost done. I didn’t pay it off as aggressively as I probably should have during the first couple of years after the divorce.

      Here’s what has been working for me: significant downsizing on housing, car, eating out, groceries (though I allow myself the occasional weekend splurge when my kid is at her father’s house, and we do pizza every Friday when she’s with me). Cutting cable, using the library, developing low-cost/free hobbies like hiking. I got rid of my gym membership but reinstated it when I realized that I just wasn’t motivated to work out on my own. I also kept monthly pedicures and waxing bc they make me feel confident.
      If/when you’re ready to date (it took me three years to be ready) it helps to date people who have a similar mindset. I went on a few extravagant first dates with people who were constantly vacationing, participating in expensive hobbies, etc. It was fun but they didn’t get where I was coming from and I knew I didn’t want to try to keep up in that world any longer. I had much more success with people who were interested in hiking, coffee, and free cultural events around town. I used to think that one day when my debts were paid, I’d go back to the lifestyle I lived while married (country club, eating out, black tie benefits), but at this point, I don’t miss it at all. I’m happy with my quieter, more minimalist life.

    • Sunshine

      I agree with all of these suggestions depending on how deep of cuts you want to make. I also think you want to set aside some amount of fun money. Whether that’s $10 to buy a coffee and pastry every weekend, $50 to get takeout twice a week, or something else. I tend toward enjoying cheap/free hobbies anyway. Walking in my neighborhood and enjoying people’s houses and flowers while listening to a podcast. Going for coffee on Saturday mornings with my book or a friend. Not paying for subscriptions – period (we are the only people I know who don’t have Hulu, Netflix, etc and life is absolutely fine without them). Using the library for books and movies if you like them; see if your library has Hoopla. Going on walking dates with friends instead of to dinner or for drinks. Puzzles while listening to podcasts.
      If you love to shop but don’t have money to spend, treat shopping places like museums. Enjoy looking at the items but dont’ buy them. Because do they really make your life that much better after you buy them anyway? Go to jewlery stores and look at their beautiful items. You don’t need to own them, and you may find life is easier if you don’t.

    • Anon

      Make sure your friends understand your situation and won’t try to make you go out for expensive dinners, etc. In my experience it’s upsetting to go out with friends and have them suggest sharing appetizers, expensive bottles of wine and desserts when you can just split a lower priced bottle and get one entree each or go out for a cheaper happy hour/BYOB. If your friends aren’t on board and supportive, don’t be hesitant to get new friends!

      • Anon

        +1

        One of my closest friends used to call me every 6 months to plan a visit and/or ask me to go on a trip with her. I loved visiting/traveling with her, but I was a very poor graduate student and she was a lawyer. Finally I just had to say, I’m sorry but I can’t afford it!!!! Unfortunately, it ended our friendship. Sad.

        • Anon

          I ended a friendship with someone who was insensitive to my financial situation and I’m so much happier sitting alone on my couch with a cheap dinner I cooked.

  4. Anon

    Birkenstock has some (IMO) cuter sandals (specifically looking at the Mary model) that have the Papillio label. Has anyone worn this model or the Papillios in real life? I have an ancient pair of Eileen Fisher sport sandals that are about to fall apart. I’m looking for something equally walkable but maybe a cut more current / cute.

    • Anon

      They fit the same as Birks. I can’t remember if Papillio specifies narrow or regular like Birks, but IIRC, they’re all equivalent to the Birk narrow footbed.

    • Cat

      I’m sorry, I just looked up the Papillio Mary style and based on your intro, was not expecting a wedge clog thing.. do you not like the regular Birk models?

      • Anon

        OP here — I have the regular Birks, but can’t wear them to work (I also wear them with socks, so it is a visual assault) or church. I think that the Mary would be appropriate in my office as a regular show but want something I can walk a mile in with happy feet.

        • Cat

          given that explanation, your solution is to buy separate shoes. Get yourself some cute sneakers for the mile long walks. I’m sorry, that Mary style is kind of aggressively frumpy.

          • Anon

            Why can’t women live in a world where we can walk in shoes other than sneakers? [Does the Easy Spirit brand still exist? I can recall their commercials featuring people playing basketball in their heels.]

          • Cat

            tbh, shoes that are designed to “look sleek but secretly be really comfortable” almost always fail. I’d rather wear cute sneakers than frumpy wedges. I have no idea why the Cole Haan – Nike collaboration from ~15 years ago wound down, because that was the only exception I’ve ever seen!

          • Anon

            I have shoes that are comfortable enough to walk miles in that aren’t sneakers but they’re not necessarily ergonomic to do significant walking in. To be fair, men have the same problem. Just because you can walk miles in shoes doesn’t mean you should.

            I live downtown and walk literally everywhere I go so I often am walking long distances in non-sneakers (including heels!!). It’s totally doable but I also try to not do it to prevent issue as I age. I watched my grandmother end up with mobility problems that I’m sure were partially caused by her penchant for heels and I’d rather not have to deal with that later on.

          • Cat

            Anon at 9:15, I agree. My commute, errands, going to restaurants, etc is all on foot. When I was in college I had no trouble walking a mile in heels. H-ll no almost 20 years later. For short walks, up to 15 mins or so, I’ll still wear unsupportive flats, but for anything longer, I’m in something with real support – cute street sneakers with an insole, most likely.

          • Anon

            Anon at 9:15 here and we both walk everywhere because we’re in the same city (and quite possibly the same neighborhood!). I love so much about where we live, but the walkability might be the top of that list!

          • anon

            I don’t know if you really want sandals but I can and regularly do walk a mile in Rothy points. Maybe an option for decent work shoes?

        • Anon

          If you need something work or church appropriate you can walk in, Clark’s Caroleigh Anya is the answer.

          • Anon

            I would not have thought about that to look at them. Ankle straps in particularly can just rub weirdly once you get going on a walk (vs at home when you’d quickly change out of them).

          • Anon

            I have a .9 mile walking commute to work and I commute in them regularly (like 3x a week in the summer). Have never had a problem. My walks home from work are usually longer as I”m running errands or going straight from the office to dinner to home.

    • Anon

      I would not call the Papillio Mary sandals cute or current…

      What type of shoe are you looking for? Something heeled? Dressier? Sportier? Depends on how you’re planning on wearing this shoe.

      If you don’t like the traditional Birkenstock, I think the Madrid Big Buckles are much more current. Birkenstock also makes some platform sandals, those are quite in. Specifically, I think the Glenda’s are pretty cute. The Sibyl’s also aren’t too bad. I like the platform Arizona’s too.

      Overall though, I wear Birks because they’re comfy, not because they’re cute (though they are on-trend and I do like to be trendy).

      • Anon

        I have the Madrid Big Buckles and while they are better looking than the rest of the Birkenstock shoes, they are not comfy. They do not stay snug on my feet. I am always curling my toes to keep them on. I specifically only wear them if I am NOT walking far, so this is the opposite of what you are looking for.

    • Anon

      I’m sorry but the Mary’s are hideous. They have cute wedge styles (that other people have suggested) but the Mary’s aren’t it.

      • Anon

        I do not get how the Marys are hideous but half of my city can’t get enough Swedish Hasbeens (which my feet loathe).

        • Anon

          I think their sandals are fine but the closed toe option is also hideous. But, I also think the Birks wedge sandals are fine but the closed toe Marys are hideous.

          • Anon

            Ha — you haven’t seen my unmanicured toes. The Mary would be a gift to the sighted.

          • Anon

            I’d rather take 10 mins to paint my nails than wear hideous shoes but to each their own!

          • Cat

            The Swedish Hasbeens are kind of retro-funky. The Mary style is neither of those things.

      • Anon

        They’re ok – they’re a look – but honestly they’re just copying Dansko. If you want some shoes like this, just get the Dansko.

        I have the Dansko Mary janes and I wear them when my feet hurt. I swear there is nothing better for plantar fasciitis than a rocker sole.

    • PolyD

      I definitely roll different than this board, because I don’t think those are that bad (if I found the right shoe – wedge heel, closed toe, ankle strap, and covered heel area?). I wouldn’t wear them with a suit, but I’d wear them with casual office pants or dresses.

      Me, I love oxford styles. I have a pair from Rockport that has a little bit of a heel and some vaguely wingtip styling on the leather, I can wear those to do, like, a mile or two of easy city walking. They’re great for a day at the office and have worked well for me at meetings in large convention centers. I need to explore Poshmark or EBay, because they are a few years old and not sold by Rockport anymore.

      I also have a pair of Clark’s oxfords that have more of a wedge heel, they are also comfortable and I wear them with pants and dresses. I wouldn’t say I look “polished,” but I think I look current enough.

      • Anon

        I don’t think they’re so bad either. My eyes are biased because I need some kind of strap in order not to walk right out of my shoes. I’d wear these, but probably just for casual.

      • Anonymous

        I think the Marys are adorable. They remind me a lot of the shoes that I wore with baby doll dresses in the 90s.

  5. Anon

    I took a half day tomorrow to get ahead of some chores and non-work work I need to do (I hate that this is where my PTO is going, but my spring is insane with work and non-work commitments).

    What are your “must-do”s for spring cleaning or a deep clean? I live in a 1 BR apartment, so even getting into nooks and crannies shouldn’t take too too long.

    Also, what are your best organizational tips? I have no ability to come up with how to organize myself, but I’m good at sticking to a system once it’s in place. I just don’t know where to start!

    • Anon

      Everything in its place and a place for every thing. If stuff isn’t on the floor or on counters, it’s easy to keep them clean. After that: dusting baseboards and a good vacuum. I like to think that I clean as needed so there is minimal grime, but hitting sinks and tubs with Comet (or similar) makes them sparkle.

    • anon

      I love Caroline Winkler’s video “You’re doing home organization WRONG” for getting started.

    • anon

      For a deep clean, I would thoroughly vacuum and clean the floors. I vacuum pretty regularly because of cats, but if I was deep cleaning I would move furniture and clean underneath areas that are usually hidden.

    • Josie P

      Something I do during a deep clean but not other times – inside cabinets and drawers and inside the fridge. I move all the fridge stuff to different shelves and take each shelf out and wash it (or if too heavy, just do it in the fridge – boiling water takes most stuck stuff off).

      • Anon

        And under the fridge with one of those felt ‘under-the-fridge cleaning thing….

        Vacuume and/or change the filters on your air cleaners.
        Change Brita filter.
        Clean the humidifier (maybe put away until next winter, if you are lucky and not still in dry winter weather)
        Snake your drains to get the hair out with those cheap plastic things.

        When I lived in an apartment with hardwood floors, I washed my hardwood floors with a bucket of a simple wood cleaner, and got into the corners by hand. It really doesn’t take much time and it forces you to get under furniture/move things.

        Maybe throw my winter sweaters in the washer on delicate, each in a delicates bag, with a gentle soap.
        Clean off my winter boots/booties with leather/suede cleaners, re-protect them with waterproofing spray and put away. Decide if I need to wash any winter coats.
        Trade my winter flannel sheets for crisp cotton ones.

    • Anonymous

      Spring clean:
      windows
      trim of all kinds (windows, doors, wainscoting)
      bathroom walls and grout
      kitchen cabinetry doors
      any outdoor furniture

    • Anonymous

      Thanks all! I do a pretty thoroughly clean each Sunday but appreciate all of the ideas for a nice, deep spring clean! I will definitely be calling in a neighbor to help me move some furniture :)

    • Bette

      I’m not much of a spring cleaner but whoo boy have I been on an organizing kick lately.

      Building on the organizational concept of a place for everything and everything in its place – when I’m trying to get more organized, I collect everything in my house that’s out of place and try to put in two categories: (1) stuff that I immediately know where it goes (and then I put it away) and (2) stuff that doesn’t have a home and ends up being clutter I move from one room to the other.

      Then I look at everything in (2) and really think about it – the goal is ultimately either designate/create a home for this item (or category of item), or to get rid of it. The dream is that I can do a quick sweep of the house daily, collect anything that’s out place, and easily deposit it into its home without exerting any brain power. Or that someone else (either husband/kid or visitor) can tidy up after themselves because it’s so obvious where things belong.

      You have to make it work for you though – like I realized that a lot of stuff in limbo was causing clutter so I created stations for “in between,” like a donate box, a “take action” tray for paperwork, and even baskets hanging on the doors of my kids bedrooms so I can put little odds and ends in there during my nighttime sweep while kids are sleeping (and then they go to their true home in the morning).

      I really like A Slob Comes Clean for practical (not insta aspirational) thoughts and advice on organization/decluttering.

      • Anonymous

        +1 for Dana K White aka A slob comes clean. Her decluttering advice is excellent.0

    • Anonymous

      I love the book Home Comforts for home maintenance stuff. It’s aspirational but super thorough and she gets into detail about how to clean things. I love that she’s a lawyer who researched all this stuff!

    • Runcible Spoon

      Paper is my downfall. I’m a piler, not a filer, so I recently bought a bunch of black mesh magazine files from Target, and converted my piles into vertically-stored papers within these magazine files, by category, e.g., home, medical, etc.

  6. anon

    I’ve realized that I have a real lack of “third pieces” to wear with tops on the weekend, particularly for going out to dinner or even for church. I can’t bring myself to wear a blazer on the weekends because those will always feel like workwear to me. I have a denim jacket already, but what else can I add that’s similar in formality? If you’ve found any favorites lately, I’d love specific recommendations!

  7. Gift help

    Any good gift ideas to bring to an older relative who will be hosting us at his place for a few days? Coming from NYC. Normally we would bring a NY-specific food gift but relative typically keeps to a fairly restricted diet. He does sometimes “splurge” so a nice Babka or something won’t be unwelcome, just trying for other ideas. He isn’t into wine or scotch, and won’t let us pay for dinner out. He does have a lot of outdoor hobbies but probably has all he needs for that or at least I am not sure we can figure out what it is that he would want.

    • Velma

      We always bring NYS apples, cheddar, or maple syrup. Since you’re in the city, maybe something small from the Met museum shop or a similar destination–something like coasters or stationery?

    • Anon

      What about bagels and cream cheese for breakfast? Plus some nice olive oil and balsamic vinegar?

    • Anon

      If you live/work near the City Hall area the NYC Store (City gvt official store in the Borough Hall building) has fun gift items that are several steps above the average tourist souvenirs.

    • Anonymous

      What about exotic fruit that is available in the city due to immigrant communities? It is mango season in my neighborhood and I can get at least 3 different varieties at corner shops.

      Or maybe some salt-free spices from Kalyustans or something from Sahadi’s?

  8. Anon

    Has anyone transitioned from a different career to teaching after having kids? I’m late 20s and don’t plan on kids for 5+ years but I have always toyed with the idea of teaching when I have kids. I remember at my high school over half of the teachers I had had done this. I work in government and would be interested in eventually teaching middle school or high school history / social studies / civics.

    My parents are both teachers (as are several other relatives) but they went into teaching straight from college. I would be interested in teaching at an independent (private) school, so wouldn’t need the certification that public school teachers need, but I would definitely take education classes before the transition.

    I’m pretty aware of the upsides and downsides of teaching from my family, but if anyone has anything to add I am interested in hearing more. I did choose my government career because I wanted a helping career where I wanted to make a difference and I didn’t care about making lots of money and I am used to doing a lot with limited resources (which all applies to teaching too).

    • anon

      I’m a MBB partner with a PhD and recently started moonlighting as a professor at one of the universities in town. If there’s an equivalent (like teaching a particular skill at a community college) it could be an easier and good way to help people. My community college is looking for ppl to teach civics and american history, for example.

      • Anon

        I wouldn’t be opposed to that, though I believe it pays significantly less than being a full time teacher? I am interested in teaching due to the schedule / family friendly (aka having the same breaks as my future kids).

        It sounds silly but as a kid I didn’t realize how hard it was to be a two working parent household because my parents taught at my school so the only days they needed coverage were the handful of teacher professional development days or parent-teacher conference days. 90% of the days we were off my parents were also off. We had the same start and end times (though my parents both coached, which just means my sister and I would “help out” at practice when we were young).

        Basically I want a job with a family-friendly schedule that also will pay me a FT salary. If community college teaching does that, I’m definitely interested (I used to work in higher ed and loved it).

        • smurf

          I think you’ve gotten a lot of good advice (and some weird advice…like, there’s a reason so many teachers are also parents! the schedule does align nicely a lot of the time) but you said you think kids are 5 years out — I don’t know how old/healthy your parents/in-laws are, but I have seen a lot of friends’ parents go from being super involved with the first grandkids to much less in a few years, just physically they aren’t able to take care of them solo in a few years. 65 to 70 can be a huge difference.

        • Nesprin

          Community college teachers in CA at least make significantly more than high school teachers and even weirdly cal state professors. It’s hard to get a tenure track cc position, but if you do they’re really cushy jobs, but this depends a ton on your state.

      • anon

        Oh got it. Well if you were to teach full time at CC I think it pays pretty well vs being a middle school teacher, but this is highly dependent on location/specific school etc.

        • Anon

          I will look into FT CC teaching! While the breaks won’t line up exactly with kids’ school at least summer and winter breaks should be similar.

          • Anon

            There’s a lot of competition for these jobs, so if you aren’t experienced in teaching I wouldn’t bother with this route. I know several folks with graduate degrees in the subject they teach, teaching in community colleges while working as adjuncts elsewhere.

            I have several friends and relatives that went into a teaching as a second career (mostly high school) in their 30’s after doing nothing related to teaching. Almost all went to public teaching though. Many lived in areas so desperate for teachers that it was pretty easy to get whatever certifications where needed. Their income/job stability was much better in the public school systems, and they all stayed long term and are en route to amazing retirement benefits. I don’t think the benefits are as good in private schools, yes? But your area may be different.

    • Anonymous

      Why would you choose private school? That typically means no union protections, no tenure, lower salary, and worse benefits. Most states have alternate pathways to certifications for career changers. Ask you undergrad college if they have resources available. And remember teaching can be hard to balance with kids. The breaks and summers are great but it’s not a flexible job. You mostly have to be there in person early every single day and especially when you are just starting out will be spending a ton of time after the school day working as well.

      • Anon

        Basically my parents and extended family are all private school teachers (and I’m a private school alumna) so I have a strong network in the local private schools but I don’t have a public school network.

        I am open to hearing from others, but several of my relatives started in public schools and chose to move to private schools. The pay and benefits in public schools are absolutely better but they prefer the resources, class sizes, and support they get in private school over public school.

        I haven’t ruled out public school, but private school would be a more natural transition for me as that’s what I’m familiar with.

      • Anon

        I’d also say my current job is not at all flexible, so regardless I will need to make a career shift when I have children. For example, I was in person FT during the first two years of the pandemic and now I can WFH 1x a week. We have a minimum staffing level to maintain so getting time off for holidays and school breaks is like the hunger games. We have an on-call component of the job which would be absolutely brutal, if not near impossible, with kids

        • Anon

          I do t see how teaching is more flexible, actually. You have to be in person every day and your hours aren’t the same as the kids – you need to be there before and after their days start and end. Sure there’s vacation alignment but a more flexible job gives you that too. Personally, I can’t imagine going into an in-person, low paying job for “flexibility.” Why not parlay your skills to something in the private sector where hybrid work is the norm? Also earning extra money will give you a cushion to deal with inevitable expenses associated with children.

          • Anon

            I already work in a low-paid, in-person job, so that’s not a huge transition for me.

            One of the benefits of private school is that the campus is the same for all grades, as is the school day. Yes, teachers come in early but the schedule isn’t so different that the I couldn’t commute with my kids.

            There are a handful of days when teachers are working but students aren’t in school (5 per year at my parents’ school). My parents and in-laws are local (and in laws are already retired) so they can help watch kids on those days or sick days. I’d rather have to cover 5 days + sick days of no-school than an entire winter, spring, and summer break.

          • Anon

            Yeah teaching is actually way less flexible than many govt jobs. I’m not sure what you do currently, OP, but in my govt job I take a sick day whenever my kids are sick, I can do a WFH-while-supervising kids on teacher workdays and I have vacation time that I can choose when I use. None of that is available to teachers. K-12 teaching is in many ways inflexible and hard to manage with kids.

          • Anon

            I’m in a position that requires in-person work so I can’t WFH and I have 2 weeks of vacation each year, which doesn’t go far. I do have 10 sick days, but taking them really leaves my colleagues in a lurch so people very rarely take sick days (for themselves or to take care of others). It also requires on-call which pretty much requires you to be at work or at home, it would make doing basic parenting tasks difficult (I couldn’t commit to coaching rec league soccer because of on call, for example. It would even make going to these games impossible when on call which is 1 of 3 weeks).

            I am in a niche government job and I do love the work but it is not flexible, unfortunately.

            I did work in the private sector once and I hated it, I really need a mission around my work and couldn’t find that in the private sector.

          • Anon

            It sounds like you need a job, but I’m confused about why you need to make a career change and go into teaching.

          • here she goes

            +1 my SIL is a teacher and her schedule is far less flexible than BIL and family in other professional jobs. It really is apparently with 3 year old nephew + daycare and things that come up – she can’t leave as easily or stay home as the rest of us in professional jobs. We typically have a lot more autonomy over our schedule, and we’re way higher paid.

          • here she goes

            OP – I just saw your 11:14 post. Just a few thoughts:

            In my experience, your job in your late 20s is going to have less autonomy in your day than mid-thirties. Once you build up credibility and move into higher roles, autonomy that is useful to have with kids comes more naturally.

            Regarding mission, I’d encourage anyone who feels a need for a mission around work to broaden your horizons. Private sector contractors are pretty integral to the missions of many government programs. I’m an enviro tech project manager for a private contractor and all of my customers are government entities and they 100% rely on my company/my expertise every day to provide an essential public service. Perhaps something to look at and not dismiss so quickly.

          • Anon

            Thanks for your comments. It feels like in my org those above me have even more demands on their time than I do, as they’re basically expected to be always available. I would have to see what flexibility is available in other agencies for more senior personnel.

            I’ve worked as a contractor before and it was the same work but worse benefits. Depending on my situation in 5-10 years, I would go back to that (provided my partner has good benefits!). I found my time in corporate America to be extremely soul sucking and I don’t think I could do that for a long time.

      • Anon

        In my city, even with private schools, elementary schools start in the 8:00 hour, middle schools 8:30-9:15 unless it is 7:30 and all high schools start around 7:15-7:30 b/c of a bus driver shortage. So if you teach at a high school, you have to be at school at a time and possibly in a place that won’t work for younger kids. You may really want to be an admin at their school at the level your kid is in or office worker, but they often work 12 months vs just the school year. Even at private schools, the upper school campus can be separate from the lower school campus and if the kids ride the bus, it stops at both but that doesn’t help you if you drive and teach at campus A but kid is at campus B. IMO other than vacations matching, it can be really hard being a teacher after the first few years. Better to be a 3/4 time hire who works in admissions.

        FWIW, I am a teacher kid in BigLaw and my current admin left teaching b/c it was so crazy.

        • Anon

          At the private schools near me, the start time is the same and it’s all on one campus, so I don’t foresee that being a problem.

          I have no allusions that being a teacher isn’t hard. I’m okay with that. My current job is hard and I love it.

          I don’t want to sound stuck up, but I have a Masters degree and I want a career that uses it. I don’t want to be an admin because that’s not a good fit for my background, interests, or abilities.

          • Anonymous

            Illusions. And you do realize that being an administrator at a school is not the same as being a secretary right?

          • Anon

            Private schools can be really picky, especially if your degrees aren’t in the hard sciences. Everyone can teach third grade. But I know someone with a biology PhD who is a Country Day high school science teacher and at my private high school that was the norm, not the exception. If your master’s is from HYP, fine. But I feel that it is getting harder and harder to get jobs like this. Ditto community college. It’s better to be in admissions or college counseling b/c those can wait a day if your kid is sick. Or be an in-house sub. Country Day in my city has two K teachers b/c one always winds out on maternity leave and this way the parents don’t riot b/c of no continuity or for 30K/year their kid is taught by random substitutes.

          • Anon

            Obviously I realize that but when they said an admin or office worker I thought they meant admin = secretary not admin = administration. I know a lot of teachers and school administrators and every single one was a classroom teacher for 10+ years before they got into administration. No one just becomes a school administrator.

            I apologize for my typo in a comment I quickly wrote on my iPhone walking between meetings.

            Yes, at my private school almost all high school teachers had prior non-teaching work experience and almost all science and math teachers had PhDs. I am well aware of what the expectations are. I have six private school educators in my family (spread across 5 local private schools) and several friends who also teach at local private schools.

          • Trixie

            I think Admin means a principal or head of school, not an administrative assistant.

          • Anonymous

            Well if Admin means administration, I don’t know of anyone in administration in any school who did not start as a teacher, so this is bad advice.

            But, also, if the OP wants to teach so she can have summers off with her kids then going into administration is not the answer as it’s a year-round job.

        • Anon

          Adolescents starting school at 7:15-7:30 because of a bus driver shortage? Yikes.

          • Anonymous

            Yup.. Very common around here for high schools to start just after 7am. It’s terrible (none of them are getting enough sleep!!!)

          • Anon

            Unfortunately our high school started at 7:10 before Covid and the bus driver shortages. :( I really hope they get with the research about adolescent sleep and delay the start time before my kids are that age. I have 9 years.

          • Cat

            Didn’t most people’s HS start at like 7:30? That was pretty typical when I was a teen in the 90’s. Honestly I don’t know how we would have fit in everything after school if we started later – between after school activities and homework and a bit of family time, it was time for bed…

          • Anon

            My high school was 8-3, followed by sports from 3-6, then go home, shower, eat family dinner and start homework. Do homework from 7-11ish and go to bed!

          • Anon

            There’s been a ton of research since the 1990s about how early start times are bad for teens and conflict with their natural biological clocks. I’m not sure why a later start time would prevent you from doing everything you need to do. There’s still the same number of hours in the day. I would assume if school is starting at 8 instead of 7 you go to bed an hour later.

      • Anon

        Not the OP, but if I were not as concerned about money, I might choose private or charter for more autonomy, smaller class sizes, and ideally less scrutiny from communities worried about FOX news headlines.

        I realize parents will always have a lot of concerns, but a lot of the complaints I hear from public school teachers these days are about extreme political polarization and suspicion, while I think private school instructors still enjoy a little more trust relatively. I also hear public school teachers complaining much more about the burden of classroom management during the 1-on-1 shortage and the teacher shortage and the continuing pandemic.

        Teaching is never easy, but in comparison, the experience of some of the private school teachers I know (teaching at the same school where they send their kid thanks to tuition perks, for example, and sometimes for the little kids it’s also some kind of play based or outdoor focused school) seems relatively idyllic.

        • Anon

          Yes, most of my relatives started as public school teachers but chose to move to private schools for the reasons you mention. My mom loves teaching, encourages lots of people to go into teaching, and yet only recommends people teach at private schools because the quality of life is so much better.

    • Anon

      My state is making a BA not-mandatory to teach, so I wouldn’t rule out public schools. Private schools in my city only seem to want people with prestige schools on their resumes, so not sure if that helps you or not. Look for insurance and retirement. This is where IMO private schools think you have a breadwinner spouse and can lure you in with preferred admissions for your kids and discounted tuition as how they pay you (vs higher salary or good retirement benefits), so watch out for that to factor into things. So look at total comp and also look at wingnut parents (like the parents who pay full tuition expecting that there is a lot of quid for their pro) — the grape here will help you and will matter a lot if you are a high school teacher thinking she can give little Kennedy a C or not.

      • Anon

        My preference for independent schools is because that’s where my family tends to work so I have more of a network there, but would also be interested in public schools. As a result, I’m also well-aware of the pitfalls of working at independent schools (low pay and “intense” parents).

        Having tuition remission or discounts would be a huge benefit for me though! I’d obviously have to re-evaluate what my family’s finances are when I’m ready to make the move, but I’d likely be happy with a lower salary + tuition remission.

        • Anon

          Tuition would be a great benefit, and if you could get that, and all your kids going to “your” school – sounds great in theory. I still think it would be tough to have all kids, at all ages, go back and forth to school every day, with you. But hey of course your vacations would correspond nicely!

          But that’s putting a lot of eggs in one basket, yes? Is your husband making a lot of $$ so finances are not an issue for all of your kids to go to this private school? Especially if you don’t get a scholarship? And you think your unborn children are likely to all be admitted to a private school (I have no idea how they work – aren’t some competitive to get admission? Or would you have a legacy/preference?)? And if this is a good private school, wouldn’t it be hard to get a job there?

          Sorry… I shouldn’t be extrapolating like that! You are just thinking about a long term plan, which is a great idea. I think posters are just trying to think of all options, and smartly remind us that things never fall into place as nicely as we hope….

          • Anon

            No your comments are quite helpful!

            It is absolutely putting a lot of eggs in one basket! It’s very much how things have operated in my circles (every single one of my cousins went to a private school that they had a parent teach at, my cousins are starting to do it with their kids, my parents also went to private schools their parents taught at, and I have several friends in the same boat!) so it’s a good reality check for me that even though it’s very common in my world, it may not work out for me.

    • Anon

      If kids are 5+ years away you don’t need to be thinking about this yet. You may find you have no problem returning to your government career. Plenty of women don’t. Or you may want to quit and stay home completely. It’s just impossible to predict until the kids are actually here, and there isn’t much point in thinking about what you want to do or trying to plan for a career transition before you actually have kids.

      But to answer your question, yes I know a couple people who switched to teaching after kids for the convenience and all of them hated it and quit. I think teaching is one of those careers where you really need a passion for the job to keep you going, and if you’re just doing it for logistical reasons it doesn’t end well in my experience.

      • Anon

        That’s a good point (the timing). However, with the classes I’d want or need to take, I’d need a few years head start before I’m actually ready to tr@nsition, which is why I’m starting to look into it now. I know that while I love my job now, it’s not at all family friendly so regardless I need to change careers eventually.

        • Anon

          I would also say that while I didn’t choose to go into teaching right out of college (mostly because when I was a college student I didn’t want to be like my parents, even though they both heavily encouraged me to major in education! But as a 19 year old away from home for the first time I of course didn’t want to listen).

          My passion in my career has always been helping people and working to improve others’ lives for the better and teaching is absolutely a job where I can do that. I have worked with kids off and on throughout my careers and I’ve always loved the jobs where I’m working with kids the best. I also do a lot of training and informational outreach in my current job (which obviously is not teaching, but some skills carry over) and that’s something I enjoy a lot too.

        • Anon

          I think this is sort of the definition of “leaving before you leave” and while I’m not a huge Sheryl Sandberg fan in general, she had a good point on that one. Life is long and if you really want to be a teacher there will be plenty of time to do that after you have kids. It seems silly to me to do it now when you may end up deciding you want to be a SAHM or you may decide you want to lean in hard to your office job. Truly, it’s impossible to predict how you will feel until the first kid is here (and subsequent kids can change things).

          I’m also confused about why being in a not family-friendly job currently means you have to change careers. Presumably there are lots of job options within this career?

          • Anon

            That is true. I will have to re-evaluate my timeline a bit.

            I know we can’t afford for me to be a SAHM, so that’s going to be off the table. I do really like what I do but the only way to have more flexibility would be for me to take a big step down which I wouldn’t enjoy, would provide some but not enough flexibility, and would pay worse than other options.

            I know that I don’t want to pick my kids up from aftercare at 5:30 and then rush home to do dinner and get everyone to bed on time. I know that works best for many families, but it’s not what I want personally. I could look into a few other options, but I am really drawn to the schedule and mission of teaching.

          • Anon

            Look into work from home jobs, or jobs with flexible hours. Remember that there’s a partner involved in this too and usually partners share pick-up and drop-off duties and it’s common to stagger hours so both parents can work longer hours without kids spending 10+ hours in daycare. My husband and I both work fulltime government jobs and our kid has never been in childcare until 5:30. Also keep in mind teachers have an earlier start than many office jobs (my teacher friends mostly wake-up between 5 and 6 am) so you’re making up the afternoons off by missing time with your kid(s) in the morning.

            Also if you’re thinking about aftercare you’re actually looking 10+ years into the future because that’s not an issue until your first kid is 5. Waaaaay too soon to be thinking about this.

      • anon

        I wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. Before committing to this route, definitely take some education courses and try to figure out whether you feel called to the actual work, not the idea of it. If you don’t, there’s your answer.

        • Anon

          I clearly should have made my original post longer and clearer explaining my interest and background more :)

          Thank you for your comment. I love working with kids, I love training/teaching adults, and I love a career where I am helping people. I am already used to low pay, in-person, not flexible work. I just need to confirm that I love teaching kids in a school setting.

    • Anon

      I will tell you as a parent that the weakest teachers my daughter had, from late elementary through high school, were second career teachers. As a researcher in a teacher eduction program, I can tell you that alternate route programs can get you in the classroom, but not necessarily prepared. They often cut corners on the important aspects of teaching such as classroom management, culture building, and parent interactions. This has negative implications for both the teacher and the students.

      • Anon

        I beg to differ. I think actual, FT (as opposed to student teaching) experience is where you really learn things like classroom management and parent interactions. Regardless of what type of program a teacher comes from, they’ll really learn these skills on the job (which is also why younger teachers are paired up with more experienced teachers for the first few years).

        I think there’s a lot of value for students from “second career teachers”, and I’ve seen a lot of really innovative teaching from them. I think both first career and second career teachers have important strengths and bring a lot to the table and neither should be discounted. Plus, many second career teachers end up teaching longer than they were in their first career and have tons of education-specific knowledge and skills that they gain over time.

      • Anonymous

        Eh, as a parent my kids have had awesome teachers that are 2nd career teachers and terrible teachers that have degrees in education and have only ever taught. IME, in the lower grades it matters to have an education background but it matters less as students get older.

        The best English teacher my daughter had was a former lawyer. The difference in my daughter’s papers before that class and after that class was night and day.

    • Anonymous

      So did you want advice or not? Because you’re responding to every good thought with the reasons you will be ignoring it.

      • Anon

        The only thing I have pushed back on is that my preference remains to be in an independent school as opposed to a public school, but I have also said that I’m open to public schools. I am already doing some research into teaching at my local community college, per a suggestion given on this thread.

          • Anon

            Yep, this. OP since you’ve made up your mind and aren’t really open to what people are telling you, why not make this change now? It seems foolish to wait until you have kids to make another big change. It’s easier to make one change at a time. You’ll have more energy now to develop lesson plans, perhaps build some credibility and get in the groove.

          • Anon

            Agree to disagree, but I’ve really only pushed back on people saying I should be a public school teacher or saying things that directly go against mine and my relatives’ current experience.

            But, I was brought on for a specific project at work and while I could leave before it’s completed, I was specifically asked to stay on for the whole project before I move on. I could start taking classes during this time though. I will start looking into potentially taking a class starting this fall (summer application deadlines have passed for the schools I was looking at).

          • Anon

            OP – You’re fine. You are filling in info as people ask, which is very helpful.

            You come from an unusual family/history and I think most of us haven’t had your experiences/perspective. Also, your amazing situation of having two sets of grandparents willing and able to help with kids (although this may change as they age….), you are already far ahead of the game compared with most of us. In your shoes, I would definitely consider teaching in your private schools as an option, and agree with those who recommend starting to teach sooner rather than later to make sure you are happy doing it. That’s the most important guiding factor.

    • Anon

      I know an attorney who switched to teaching at a local k-12 private school which offers free tuition, aftercare and summer camp for teachers’ kids. With the value of untaxed private school tuition for two kids, plus aftercare, plus summer camp in addition to his salary, I am sure the value of his compensation package exceeded his governmental law salary.

      • Anon

        Yes! My mom always joked that on paper her salary was 2x what she actually made due to the fact that my sister and I got free tuition at her school! We didn’t do aftercare (if she had something after school we’d just hangout in her classroom) or summer camp (we were just home with our parents all summer) but the tuition alone was worth nearly 30k per kid!

        • anon

          My pricey prep school didn’t offer free tuition for kids – they had to apply for need-based financial aid the same as anyone else. You ended up with a situation where all the teachers’ kids went to the local public schools, unless the spouse made a lot of money. I have no idea if that’s common or not but I always thought it must feel kind of crappy to teach at a school you couldn’t afford to send your own kids to.

          • Anon

            I can’t comment about all schools, but the schools that my relatives teach at all offer full or deeply discounted tuition as a benefit. For example, the school I attended now costs 40k a year and current parents pay 3k per kid! Back when I went there, tuition was 30k and tuition was $800 for dependents of faculty and staff!

          • Anon

            The key term is “back when” – don’t make current decisions on decades old benefits ideas. Back when everyone had a pension too.

          • Anon

            Our private schools are 30K/year and teachers’ kids get in automatically (a huge benefit, there is a waitlist for kids with 2 alumni parents) and get a half tuition scholarship. So if you can’t cough up 15K/kid, you are not teaching there. Bus drivers’ kids get full tuition due to financial need, so maybe OP can drive a bus? 15K/kid is not a bargain for most families, especially if you have multiple kids.

        • Bbanon

          Yeah, your children hanging out in the classroom before/after hours may not actually be an option in 2023. For liability purposes, just like you can’t bring your kids to any other place of business/office.

          • Anonymous

            That’s totally our current after care situation. Kiddo is in my spouse’s classroom with him. Many but not all private schools are pretty loosy goosy.

          • Anon

            One of the reasons I would prefer private over public is that there’s a ton more leeway for stuff like this in private schools.

    • anon

      I get why you would be interested in teaching in a private school. Look, my mom taught in Title 1 schools her entire career. It was really, really hard. It is easier to teach in a school where the kids come from wealthier, better-educated families than one where kids are struggling with generational poverty; it can be more fun to teach in a school where standardized testing and state-mandated curricula don’t govern what you do. I get why someone would choose it if the financials weren’t the primary driver. (Our state doesn’t have teachers’ unions, but public school teachers definitely still make more than private school ones.)

      The one caution I would offer is that, as someone else mentioned, teaching is great in terms of having summer break and holiday break. But it is *not* flexible on a day to day basis – when I was a kid, if I was sick it was my dad (not my mom) that picked me up from school, stayed home with me, etc. My mom had to be at the school at a set time every day, stay until a set time, and find her own substitute if she was going to be out. So you would want to make sure that your partner has the flexibility to be the “primary parent” during the school year, because you won’t have that.

      • Anon

        Thanks for the comment. My parents and in-laws and local and are willing to pitch in (in-laws are already covering sick days and random days off for their existing grandkids). Another benefit of the private schools (in addition to everything you posted about above, all of which I agree with!), are that many in my area have FT permanent substitutes as well (so while teachers have to provide the lesson plan and assignments, there are guaranteed subs who are also familiar with the school and curriculum).

        At least at the school’s I’m planning on applying to, the teacher hours vs. student hours aren’t all that different. For example, school is 8-3 and teachers work 7:30-3:30 most days. That would be quite doable for my future kids to be on campus at that time.

        • anon

          I would really verify if that is right (the hours). It’s hard for me to imagine teachers being gone at 3:30 between carpool, tidying the classroom, meeting with colleagues, working with kids after school, grading…I guess you could do your grading at home (my mom often did) but I went to private school and worked on campus after school, and our teachers were generally there until at least 4:30 (day ended at 3). My kids are in three different private schools now and the teachers are there 90 minutes to two hours after the day ends.

          Do bear in mind also that with little kids, you’re not just talking about sick days. In the last two weeks, my son has had a doctor’s appointment, an occupational therapy session, a class St. Patrick’s Day party (one parent is invited but not required…but every kid has a parent there), and class moms were invited to volunteer to talk about their careers for Women’s History Month. My mom would not have been able to do any of those things for me during her teaching days. In my current, white-collar job, I can duck out for an hour to do that stuff and just work later, or use FMLA.

          Maybe you’re already in a job that wouldn’t allow for that stuff, but primary or secondary school teaching definitely does not. Even in a school that has permanent subs, those are for days that you or your child is sick, not so that you can attend the class Easter egg hunt.

          TL;DR – if you are considering this because you want a flexible/family friendly career, definitely find some current teachers who have kids who are at these schools and who will be SUPER honest with you about the reality of the situation. It may still be better than what your current situation is, but you’ll want to road test that. Also…don’t go into this assuming you will get hired at the schools you want to work at. If you would only do this if you could get hired at specific schools…you might not, you know?

          • Anon

            This is a really helpful and informed comment and I really appreciate it.

            That’s a good point about how I am only thinking about certain schools. I will have to think about that more and what my backup plan would be.

            IME, my mom was able to duck out if she had a free period and come to the classroom party or be the mystery reader. The benefit of being on the same campus and at the same school was that she could easily come for 20 minutes and then head back before her next class. IME, the only parents who could come to these types of things were SAHMs, working moms and dads never came so my mom being able to pop over for a little felt like a good compromise?

            Most teachers at the schools I’m looking at are involved in after school activities and thus are there later but if they’re not they only have to stay 30 minutes longer. I would likely coach, but it’s very common for kids of teachers to come to practice at these schools. I played a sport that my mom coaches in college so I occasionally come to practice as a “special guest” and there are always a few lower school students hanging out on the sidelines while their parents coach.

            I have spoken with my cousin who currently teaches at one of the schools as well as some friends I have at my mom’s school about being a parent with kids at the same school (which is the only way I would consider doing it). While no one makes it sound easy, they all make it sound doable and it does seem to be a good tradeoff for what it is.

          • anon

            Yeah, the insistence that she’ll get hired at a certain type of school is … something. My sister and BIL are both teachers, and the daycare years have been very, very rough on them. If one needs to take a kid to the doctor, they have to take, at minimum, a half-day of leave to make it happen. Plus find a sub. Whenever I get jealous of their summers off, I remember that my day-to-day life is actually a lot more flexible when stuff comes up. And it does. And I have a partner who pulls his weight and deals with the stuff as often as I do.

          • Anon

            Right! I have a job that has great lifestyle benefits that people will often point to and say, “Just become a career clerk!” But I was first in my class, worked very hard at a private firm and in house for almost a decade, and had to wait literally YEARS for ONE job opening to pop up. It’s not a job you can “just get.”

            Likewise, if these schools are such amazing opportunities and have such wonderful balance and benefits, why would they hire someone who doesn’t have the credentials to do the job and no teaching experience?

            I say all this to say that if teaching in that environment is your end goal, it might be a good idea to start getting your certifications and teaching experience now. If you are actually interested in the career of teaching (not just the perceived benefits), then you should go ahead and start that career.

          • Anon

            Girl, everyone has been giving you thoughtful and informed comments, you’re just being stubborn and unwilling to see issues with your plan.

    • Anonymous

      I’m a teacher, though I made the transition from the corporate world pre-kids. Honestly, I’d recommend making the transition pre-kids because the first couple of years are rough. I would routinely arrive before 7am and leave after 5, and still be working weekends. This was more than I worked in my corporate marketing job. After the third or fourth year, I felt more comfortable/had a bigger “toolbox” of instructional strategies to pull from, so planning went a lot quicker. Grading still takes forever.

      I can’t speak to independent schools, but in public school (at least in my state) starting pre-kids would also give you time to build up a bank of sick days that can be used for maternity leave, children being sick, etc., as well as obtaining tenure, which makes it easier to use your sick days. My first year, I came to work with pneumonia because I was still “proving” myself and my commitment to the school. Now, ten years in, I stay home when my kid is sick and no one bats an eye.

      Last, think about why you really want to do this. In many ways it’s a great career for a mom. But other people’s kids can be exhausting and leave you depleted before you even get home to your own kids.

      • Anon

        Thank you for your insight! I hadn’t considered tr@nsitioning pre-kids in order to build up good will and get in my own groove of teaching before adding the constraints of small children.

        • ANon

          for a lot of private schools you don’t actually need a teaching degree to teach

      • Senior Attorney

        Both my mom and my first husband were elementary school teachers, and they both said the first years of teaching were stupidly hard. So I agree with the suggestion to start sooner rather than later, so that you’re already in the groove when your own kids come along.

      • Anon

        +1. The people I knew who switched to teaching did it when their kids were older, like high school, because they had to pour a lot of hours in at the beginning. It sounds very, very difficult to do with a baby or toddler.

    • Curious

      I’ve been thinking a lot about transitioning to high school math or physics teaching after we hit a financial milestone in around 5 years, and these thoughts are super helpful. Thank you.

    • Anonymous

      I’m not sure you need a new career. FWIW, I work for a government contractor in a pretty niche roll: a support scientist at a scientific user facility. It’s lab work, so obviously in person, and I’m on call regularly to help visiting scientists who run into trouble. I was really worried how it would go when I had kids. BUT… what happened was that I got much better at setting boundaries. Management here will always take what you give them, but they’ll also take a lot less than your max. Frankly, at least here, they don’t write down their expectations because they know that early career folks, in particular, give a lot more.

    • Anon

      My sister is an elementary school teacher and it sounds absolutely horrible. She tells me how children have suffered due to covid and have significant behavioral issues. She doesn’t get paid enough, has to buy some of her own supplies, deal with administrative BS, can’t work from home ever, and has very few vacations days she can take during the year. If her kids need to go to the doctor or they are sick she is in a tough position.

      • Anon

        +1 teaching is so effing hard. I have a better government job than OP (mostly flexible hours, 5 weeks vacation time, etc.) but I truly do not think I would be a teacher if you offered me $200k/year, which is almost quadruple my current salary. If you offered me $1M/year I’d do it but only because I could retire after doing it for only a couple of years.

        • here she goes

          +1 teaching is hard. I agree with your calculous – I wouldn’t do it unless you paid me a lot. I have a friend who was an elementary school teacher just quit teaching last year. She was one of the ones who I would have never imagined her quitting because she was passionate about it going into, her mom was an elementary school teacher for 40ish years, and just a natural with kids. But she tried a few different roles in the last few years, and finally just quit at the end of last year because she was miserable. She’s working at a bank and just got her yoga teacher certification as a side thing, and says she is so much happier.

    • Anonymous

      My husband transitioned from being a public university college professor to a public high school teacher in NYC. The pay is similar, and benefits are probably better, but we have an exceptionally strong teacher’s union. He was working with college freshman and sophomores and is now dealing with juniors and seniors so that hasn’t been very different. He had about 10 years of teaching experience before starting as a high school teacher and has a PhD, and the first years were tough. It just takes time to develop a curriculum, and every class is different and moves at a slightly different pace. He also would not necessarily know what classes he was going to be teaching until 3 days before the students started each fall, which was…exciting. He was also sick ALL THE TIME the first year or two. The grading can be very time-consuming.

      He made the switch because he didn’t get tenure, due largely to a period of depression when his first marriage broke up, but he truly loves teaching. He hates the bureaucracy of the school system, he hates professional development, and deals with a lot of truly incompetent supervisors (assistant principals), but he loves working with students.

      Another idea for you would be to look into working at a nonprofit.

      You should also not assume that it would be hard to get certified to teach at a public school. I’m sure it varies widely by state and locality but my husband was able to do an alternate route path to get certified within about 6 months, then did substitute teaching to get the classroom hours he needed.

    • Anon

      Start out as a substitute teacher and see how you like it. It’s easy to be a sub in most districts – no credential required. And yes to public schools! You can always transition to private later if you really can’t do public, but give public a try first.

    • Anonymous

      As someone with no skin in the game (I am childless and plan to remain so), all of the posts about singing up for summer camp and aftercare and finding a babysitter who can drive kids to activities sounds to be just as stressful and hard (albeit in different ways) than choosing a career that’s more amenable being off when kids are off. Idk, but every time I see a post about how to balance kids and having a job that requires in-office hours until 5pm or what to do with kids during summer or winter break I am happy with my decision to not have kids. In fact, one of the reasons I’m childfree is because it seems so stressful to get coverage for things like this.

      Teaching is hard (my spouse is a teacher!) but it sounds like the OP has a little understanding of what she’s getting into (but I would encourage the OP to look into it a lot more). It also sounds like it’s a career she’s generally interested in. Idk, but for me it’d be worth it to switch careers to not have to fight the “omg I need coverage for summer break / winter break / spring break” fight.

      • Anon

        I think people are making valid points about that though. Teachers actually have way less flexibility in many ways than most office workers. My attorney dad was always home with me on sick days rather than my professor mom because he had sick leave he could use and my mom could only cancel class in an emergency. And K-12 teachers typically have less flexibility than professors (especially tenured ones).

        • Anonymous

          Oh for sure, but I know I’d rather figure out what to do on a few sick days a year rather than scramble for 3ish months of breaks.

          • Anon

            Ymmv but summer care is in some ways easy because so many people need it. It’s the random one-off days that can be challenging.

          • Anon

            I don’t think anyone disagrees that it’s fair to choose a job based on flexibility and timing (whether you’ve got kids or not), but it’s important not to be overly rosy about what that might actually look like. My brother is a teacher, but he often needs to pick up summer school or other teaching work during the summer break to account for losing his income during that period — it’s not just a break where he gets to convert to being a stay at home parent for three months.

          • Anon

            Something nobody has mentioned is that summer camp isn’t just about childcare, it’s also something a lot of kids WANT to do. I’m not a teacher but I have a pretty flexible part time job and we have local grandparents so we could actually get away without much summer childcare, but we’ve always signed our kids up for camp for most of the summer because they really want to go to camp and be with the friends. They adore their grandparents, but they get bored at home quickly. And my kids are still pretty little – I would think this is even more true with tweens and teens. And as kids get older you have sleepaway camp in the mix and a whole separate set of “camp friends.” Maybe it’s different if you live in some utopia where every mom on your block is a teacher or SAHM and you have play dates at home all summer long, but that’s not the reality for a lot of people. The best way for my kids to see their friends is to go to camp, so that’s what they want to do.

      • Anon

        You’re not wrong but it’s not necessarily this terrible for everyone — I just don’t post about it because it’s not an issue for me.

        My kid goes to a private aftercare that picks up from her school — they do homework, go to the playground, then come back and play. The teachers also do tutoring with kids who need extra help. Kid loves it and is well socialized and happily tired at the end of the day. They are open until 6:30, and do pick ups on all the random half days and “camp” on random days off and during all school breaks. Kiddo also goes to camp in the summer that’s entirely outdoors through a local JCH (they are inside only for inclement weather). Camp bus picks up and drops off a 5 minute walk from home. Camp starts the day after the last day of school and goes through the next to last week of august, so there is only 1.5 weeks around labor day when I do not have coverage. We usually go on vacation that week. Sometimes kid does a specialty camp during spring break or for one week during the summer, if there’s something she’s interested in. The only thing I worry about is sick days, and there are many fewer of those now that kid is in elementary. We do one sport on weekends, and a musical instrument one evening a week (teacher comes to our house). This is the norm in our social circle — there’s a few families with a SAHP who do weekday activities but they are the exception. Total childcare is less than $12k a year, which is less than half of what daycare cost.

        It’s honestly not that hard, for us, so I don’t post about it — so just keep in mind that you are only getting the perspective of those parents who do not have these kinds of resources in their communities.

        • Anon

          +1 to its honestly not that hard. The C-moms page is really the only place I’ve seen so much drama around childcare for school age kids. Aftercare at our elementary school is on s1te and very affordable, and many of my kid’s friends go. We have fairly low stress jobs and usually pick her up before 5, but she enjoys it and it wouldn’t be a disaster if she had to stay later. For summer, there is camp every week put on by the local parks and rec that goes the whole summer (except weekends and federal holidays, which we also have off) and is cheap and near our house. We could cobble together care with more expensive “specialty” camps but have never seen the need because our kid is so happy at parks and rec camp. For spring break and winter break, we usually schedule family vacations, but there are a number of camp options and we have SAHM neighbors who could also help. The total cost is also about half of pre-K daycare for us, and it’s really not that dramatic or stressful. I think it’s important to keep in mind that you only hear from people who are having issues.

    • Anonymous

      My husband is an independent school teacher and we have two kids. It’s very convenient re: school and summer breaks (our kids go to his school so it’s the same schedule- be aware that often the schedules are different than other area schools). (1) independent school jobs can be extremely competitive, don’t pay well compared to public school in many areas/no pension, and in many cases may actually want you to have a license or at least a MAT. (2) teaching can be a challenging family job- because my husband is the default after school parent, he doesn’t get to do his prep from 3-5 and instead does it after the kids go to bed. Same for exercise. He’s often up VERY late working. (3) it’s a high stress job. (4) independent school families can be BONKERS.

    • Anon

      The teachers I know all work 40+ hours. I think you’re very naive to think it’s a 9-3 job. The ones who are parents mostly have their kids in aftercare or with family or a babysitter during the 3-5 pm hours, so they can do their prep work and grading. And as others said many do other work in the summers.

  9. Mattress Topper

    My partner and I have different needs for a mattress. He needs firm to support his back. I need soft to relieve pressure points on my hips. We are both side sleepers. We currently sleep on his firm, queen-size mattress that predated me. We’re open to replacing it longer term but looking into shorter-term solutions too. I’m envisioning some kind of squishy mattress topper for my half of the current bed. Any specific suggestions?

    • Anon

      There are mattresses where you can adjust the firmness of each side separately – that seems like the obvious solution.

    • Anonymous

      Are you really considering having a topper on one hàlf of the bed, none on the other? That sounds terrible.

      • An.On.

        I did this for a while (had a full size topper on my half of the bed, and tucked the extra part over the side of the bed) and I don’t really recommend it long term, although it’s a cheap interim solution, especially since we already had the pad and didn’t spend any money on it. Long term though, we got a sleep number bed and have different settings.

    • Anon

      Firm mattress + soft topper for whole bed. He benefits from the topper if he lies on his side since his shoulders are wide, same as the way my hips are wide. The soft topper doesn’t negate the back support.

      • Anon

        This. We also have a firm mattress with a pillow top plus topper and it’s divine. Both of us have a preference for a firm mattress and you get that with this setup, plus the cozy.

      • Anonymous

        Firm mattress soft topper isn’t anywhere near soft enough for me (not OP).

        I sleep on my side, have curvy hips and small waist, and I’m slim. With a lower weight it’s possible to just not sink far enough into a firm mattress. In that physics battle the mattress wins over my spine.

    • Anon

      Are you open to a split king? My newest bed is a king with a split mattress (2x twins) so that we each get our preferred comfort level.

      • Anon

        +1

        Look at Sleep Number for an example of this without splitting into two mattresses (but these are overpriced and not likely worth it), but the split king is a great solution and it is pretty easy to search for with many brands.

    • Anonymous

      Continental bed with medium mattress for you, firm or extra firm for him, and a thick and soft upper.

    • brokentoe

      Look at Sleep Number beds. Each side is completely customizable. Been sleeping on them for more than 20 years!

      • Ginger

        DH and I did Sleep Number as well since I prefer a firmer bed and he likes a softer bed. My parents also have a Sleep Number and it has lasted a crazy long time (over 20 years).

      • Anon

        Late here but we just got an iSense – it’s less expensive than SN and people seem to like it more. We have a split king and it’s perfect.

    • Anon

      We have a European sleep works bed, which is a cotton and wool top mattress with a “box spring” that is a series of adjustable slats. We each adjust our slats differently. My husband needs his shoulders to sink in more, I need that for my hips. We are both very comfortable.

    • eh230

      Not sure if you are still reading, but look into a Purple mattress. I am a back/side sleeper that needs soft because of wide hips, and my husband is a stomach sleeper who likes a very firm mattress. We both the love our Purple mattress (we got one of the fancier models). It’s the only mattress in our 15 years of marriage that we have both been satisfied with.

  10. Anon

    If you had a short week (6-7 days) to travel solo (likely in mid-late September, although there’s some flexibility), would you go to Sardinia, Sicily or Corsica? I’m also open to other suggestions in Europe, but I’ve been to many popular tourist spots and really want to go somewhere new. I’m especially interested in island destinations because I’m the only member of my immediate family who enjoys being on boats, so this a rare chance for me to spend a large chunk of a vacation on the water without anyone complaining :)

    • Anonymous

      Sardinia.

      Based on past travels to Italy, the further south you go the more harassment you may get so I’d pick Sardinia over Sicily for solo travel.

      And Sardinia over Corsica because of how the situation in France is evolving there could be issues with general strikes etc through the summer.

      • Anonymous

        +1 on the harassment thing. I would not go solo to Sicily.

        Shetland and the Hebridees?

      • Davis

        I would love some of your Corsica tips or favorites! It’s on my list, but probably 3 years away.

    • Anonymous

      I’d go to Sardinia because I’ve been learning about the Nuragic culture and I’d love to visit the sites.

    • Mouse

      What size boats are we talking? I’d let that lead the rest of it, especially because that can be tricky to organise solo. If dinghies, I’d look at booking a Neilson beach club (I don’t know if MarkWarner and Sunsail still offer them). If bigger boats, I’d get in touch with Rock Sailing in Gibraltar, and see if they have any trips going out in September that appeal to you.
      (Assuming you mean boats with sails, I know nothing about the other kind!!)

      • Anon

        Oh I just meant day trips on boats, like catamarans that take a small tour group out to sail the coast for a day and let you swim at a couple of different coves. The kind of thing that costs around $100-200 per person. I definitely don’t have the budget to charter a boat for a week for just myself and I think I’d be kind of lonely doing that anyway (although I’ve done it with my mom and it was incredible – best vacation of my life for sure!)

        • Mouse

          Oh I see! I wouldn’t necessarily charter a boat alone either. There are various companies that will fill a yacht with people who are there by themselves, if you wanted that kind of sailing. And Rock in Gibraltar are a sailing school so again they put together groups of people who all want to sail – I did my Day Skipper cert with them back in 2012 and they were absolutely lovely.

          • Anon

            I want to stay in a land-based hotel on this trip, but good to know about the filling out a yacht as a solo. Will definitely keep this in mind for the future!

    • Anonymous

      Do you want to do serious hiking? Then go to Corsica. It’s fantastic for that.

    • philmar

      In case you’re still looking at this thread, Sicily! I think the worries about harassment are overblown. I live alone in Catania and I haven’t had any problems, and I don’t feel unsafe even walking alone at night. The beaches will be less crowded in late September but the weather will still be summer hot. You can do boat rides in Siracusa around the bay or a longer trip around the Aeolian islands. Taormina is pretty but expensive and might have some White Lotus tourism hangover. I would recommend staying in Siracusa/Ortigia or Taormina depending on your price point, but from Catania there are several tourist hubs and you can get a bus to most of the major cities.

  11. Cora

    Trying to think of travel ideas for the summer for a group of 3 friends. We had initially thought Mexico city but it’ll be raining then. Anywhere else (out of the country) lets say a 6 hr flight at max from NYC where we could explore a new city, eat good food, see historical stuff, etc.

  12. Anonymous

    Need some clothing help for a late Spring trip to France:
    1) What’s the most comfortable fashion sneaker that I can walk for miles in? (based on some instas I follow, the entire city of Paris seems to be wearing some sort of white sneaker?)
    2) Good light Spring jacket? My town always seems to go from winter to summer in the span of about a week and I realized I have no layers for true Spring weather.

  13. Anon

    Can anyone recommend one of those modular fold up floor mattresses? It’s hard to tell what’s comfy and what will sink my body to the floor. Hoping for anecdotal evidence of comfiness.

    • Anon

      They’re usually latex foam. The right kind of foam can be very supportive but be prepared to pay top dollar for it.

        • Anon

          I’m pretty happy with a Japanese futon.

          But I’ve had a lot of trouble getting my guests to agree to this arrangement!

  14. Anja

    Anyone have recommendations for planner stuff? I’ve been getting into it and would love some pointers towards good accessories, printable packs, and so on. I’ve already been through the Go Wild vendor list, but I know there’s more out there! (I use a B6-size planner with a book binding – Jibun Techo Lite – so I’m prepared to rescale printables and find a workaround for the binding issue.)

    • Anon

      I love planners!!! I was a huge filofax user for many years. I had a whole collection of vintage ones. I used to make my own pages and cut them out and punch holes with my mini hole punch, it was a whole thing.
      Now I’m a hobonichi devotee because I like customizing everything but also how simple it is. I currently use the Weeks. I have one of the “pencil boards” and I use it as a straight edge to make lines/boxes. I’m also obsessed with the 3-color pen that you get from them when you order the planner from the japan website — it is by far the best pen I have ever used and I have tried just about every pen ever. I like that the weeks is also small enough to fit into every bag I own.
      The Jibun Techo looks really interesting, but too much structure for me personally.

      On the left side (the week) I write down daily priorities (black), spending (except fixed expenses)(blue) and important appointments (red). I also write in reminders for things I need to remember to do in a few weeks.
      On the right side (blank squared page) I write in priorities for the week for work and for home. I generally don’t write full work project to do lists in here though — they are usually too long and elaborate so they go into a separate notebook. But sometimes I will make a longer to do list here for a personal project, or break something down into multiple steps (like travel planning, which I hate).
      I make lists of random things in the back to keep track of things — like how many more CLEs I need, books to read, password hints.
      I don’t end up using the monthly pages much but I used to use them to track workouts back when I worked out. I should probably do that again.
      After many years of trying out new planners and systems constantly, I’m pretty settled into this one.

      I don’t keep my old planners for the memories so I don’t use stickers/decorate/etc.

      • Anon

        I got too excited and hit post too soon — but I would love to hear how you use the Jibun Techo.

        Also, the Hobonichi site recently had an article about keeping track of expenses by a woman who wrote a book that seems to be really popular in Japan, and I thought it was interesting and a little different.

      • Anon

        Shoutout to my fellow Filofax user!! I still have mine. I don’t use it but I also can’t bear to toss it.

        • Anon @ 11:36

          I still have the first one I ever bought and will never part with it! The rest of the collection left the same way it came (ebay). I’m almost kind of sad that I discovered something that I like better.

          • Anon

            I was cleaning out my home office desk the other day and realized there were things that had slipped behind the central drawer. One of them was a laminated folding NY subway map for the Filofax! I used to work for a NY-headquartered company – it was a long time ago so that sucker was OLD.

      • Anja

        Mine’s a Jibun Lite, so less structure on most stuff. My life involves a lot of “show up at [place] and do [thing]” (classes, medical appointments, etc.), and the vertical hourly format works well for laying that out for me. I also use the sidebar for a weekly to-do list for important stuff, and allocate 3 per day into the boxes along the top – my tasks are usually a smaller number of bigger tasks, so I can do three per day fairly easily. And the year part at the front gets used to chart out multi-day stuff like trips. I handle money separately because it’s just easier for me when I can use a spreadsheet to auto-calculate it.

        I have one of the pencil boards! They are so useful for so many things. I use fountain pens, and while I’ve never had issues with bleedthrough on the Jibun paper, they’re reassuring. I’ve also been looking into stickers, but when the largest space I have is about 1.5 inches square, I want to make sure they fit first, and it’s surprisingly hard to get accurate dimensions for a lot of them.

    • Anon

      The YouTube/insta acct Amanda’s Favorites has videos about every planner and accessory you can imagine

    • Anon

      I’m a big fan of the Levenger Circa system. I use a junior size, but they have a letter size one as well. Discs > Rings.

  15. Anonymous

    Any tips for speaking to an assistant about slowing down, reading instructions carefully, juggling multiple tasks, etc.?

    I have an assistant who was hired in a dual assistant/paralegal (in a tax-related field with high client contact). Before coming to my firm, assistant had over a decade of experience in this practice area and in law firms. She has been with my firm for a little over a year. I really like her as a person, but I’m struggling with her work product. There have been some issues with elevating her to a full-time paralegal: (1) not billing enough hours/not entering all billable time; (2) losing track of tasks that were assigned in writing; (3) not doing tasks for a prolonged period of time (months on end); and (4) substantive issues with the documents prepared in the practice area. I’ve addressed these issues as they have come up over the last year. Each time I address something, I tend to get a lot of excuses (“the [tax program] is slow in our satellite office” “I have a lot of administrative tasks that are more timely,” etc.). She is also out of the office frequently for illness of herself and family (lack of childcare for her 13yo, sick parent, etc.). Assistant is frustrated because she is not being elevated to a full-time paralegal role and frequently asks for a “door.” (At my firm attorneys and paralegals have offices, other staff has cubicles/doorless small offices).

    At the end of last week, I hit a point where I need to address this on a more global scale. It provides a good example of what I have been experiencing. Assistant did not put an out-of-county court appearance on my calendar. It is of a particular type that does not get separate notices from the court/each court sets the annual dates for the year and publishes them. I didn’t find out about this 9am Friday hearing (in a different county 45 minutes away) until 4pm on Friday. And, we didn’t send out proper notices to the parties. On Friday, while traveling for this hearing, assistant sent me completed drafts of tax returns for a sit-down meeting with clients at 2pm (which was labeled as a phone call!). These drafts were far from complete – missing about half of the tax data despite my repeated requests. I had to sit with the clients and get the additional data and send everything to assistant (who was working out of a different office that day) to change, she had to email it back to me, and I had to print copies.

    Any tips for how to address this in a compassionate way would be greatly appreciated.

    • Anon

      This sounds like a really difficult and unworkable position, to be honest. How many other people does she work for and in what capacity? What are her billable hours expectations and how does that split with her assistant tasks? Does she in fact need a place she can close a door and actually concentrate on things like substantive tax documents? I completely understand your frustration but I’m confused just trying to figure out her job from reading about it.

      • Anon

        INAL but I don’t see how someone can be given substantive paralegal work that they’re billing for while also doing admin / assistant work and have it be a smooth process, ESPECIALLY if they’re working for more than one lawyer.

    • Anon

      What are the hours expectations and does her workload align with that? Some paralegal positions are very 9-5, and paid accordingly. If that is her setup but she has more than 40 hours of work a week, you need to rework the position. If the expectation is that she’s working long hours and is compensated accordingly, you have that talk with her.

    • pugsnbourbon

      The dual role might be an issue, but it sounds to me like she’s not doing great at either aspect of her work. Could it be a workload issue – she’s just swamped and missing things as a result?

    • OP

      I should have been more clear that the bulk of her administrative work is within the practice area in which she is a paralegal. And, the paralegals in this practice area often do a lot of their own administrative work. She does do some administrative work that is outside of this practice area for me and one other attorney. However, my out of practice area work that she does is extremely limited, and the other attorney also practices partially in this practice area.

      She’s not the best at getting any work done, other than things like sending out a letter that day. She doesn’t have a ton of this type of immediate work, and she has the ability to delegate/share certain admin. tasks. I’m talking like not reaching out to schedule things for over a week or two after I make the ask, not requesting financial documents from banks for two months after I first asked (and then sending me drafts of tax returns without that data), making errors each time she does a revision (like this morning when I asked her to fix 4 things on a draft, it took four attempts, each attempt fixing only one thing in the list).

      Plus I got an email from her that my door was closed this morning and she feels like I’m mad at her. My door was closed because I have a lot to do and don’t feel great at 7 months pregnant. And, it’s not all that unusual that I close my door at least part of the day.

      • Cat

        How often do you have 1:1’s with her? Sounds like you need to keep a running list of what you’ve delegated and follow up.

        • Cat

          and on the other stuff – have you actually talked to her about expectations for the role? “Jane, what happened yesterday – why did it take 8 emails for all the errors to be fixed from my original ask?”

      • Anon

        Sounds like she is terrible at her job. Is there any part of it that she is good at? I think you are well past PIP, closely supervised and documented point with her. If it helps you feel better, my partner just went through this with a direct report and she really did improve. She is doing competent basic level work now, though she is far from great.

      • Anon

        Honestly this all still sounds vague, and maybe you need to be more proactive at giving her direction about how to allocate her time. If you try that and it still doesn’t work, more drastic measures might be needed, but it sounds like you are not connecting with her. I would sit down with her and have an overall talk about her job and what should come first.

        Have you tried giving her deadlines? “I will need you to submit this request by the end of the week.”

        What about direction with prioritizing? “This paralegal task takes priority over your admin work until it’s completed by COB tomorrow. If you have any issues, or problems with that prioritization come up, let me know immediately.”

        I’m still unclear on the breakdown of her work between paralegal and admin tasks or how much she can push back to carve out time for your substantive work. You may have to help her with what and how to prioritize. I know even for myself nonessential tasks without a deadline can get pushed out for far too long while I deal with more immediate problems.

        My assistant works for 7 attorneys. If I have a drop dead project or filing, I try to let her know as far in advance as I possibly can, but I also don’t expect her to read my mind that it necessarily comes before entering already-late diary time for another more senior partner, for example. I tell her it has to be done by x, why it has to be done by x (so she understands and does not feel like she’s just doing a rote task), and that if her other attorneys have any issues to tell them to call me directly.

        • Cat

          I agree with this advice. It sounds like she’s struggling to prioritize and so as a result she’s doing 12 things at once and all of them poorly.

  16. anon

    Who else just realized that Easter is 2 weeks away? I would like to use this as an opportunity to buy a cute new top or spring dress. Has anyone else seen anything cute and/or what are you wearing? My limiting factors are: 1) I am so sick of ruffles, and they are still everywhere right now. 2) The weather. Could be 30, 70, or anything in between. I know maxis aren’t super on-trend, but they are fairly easy to dress up or down based on how cold it is. Also, I’m hosting Easter dinner so would prefer to be comfy.

    Are these hideous?
    https://www.amazon.com/ANRABESS-Womens-Summer-Dresses-487bailvye-M/dp/B0BRX8LF5S/ref=sr_1_43?keywords=Easter%2BDresses&qid=1679931773&sr=8-43&th=1

    https://www.amazon.com/DEARCASE-Womens-Sleeves-Casual-Pocket/dp/B07D8J9BX3/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?keywords=floral+maxi+dresses+for+women&qid=1679932617&sprefix=floral+maxi%2Caps%2C107&sr=8-12-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExREtTWTUySlFIM0wyJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzc0NjE5NVdVM1JYMVEyRUZEJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAxMjk1MjEyUUNOSklaNTlKRDRRJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

  17. Anon

    Went to a party where we were playing a questions game. I got asked if I had ever been in an open relationship or would ever consider being in an open relationship, and while I was thinking about it, my boyfriend was making prayer gestures to the sky. Would you read that as him trying to joke that he wanted me to say yes or no?

    • Anon

      Probably just joking unless there’s more to the story and you’ve had previous discussions about it.

    • Anon

      Why don’t you just ask him? But also that’s super weird and disrespectful and would be really off-putting to me regardless of the answer.

      • Auburn

        This. My initial assumption would be he meant it as “please g*d say yes” which I also find super gross and disrespectful. It’s one thing to jokingly wiggle his eyebrows (or something along those lines) at YOU, because then you’re in on the joke. But from what you’re describing this gesture was meant for the room, which is where it crosses the line for me. Not sure if he’s just clueless or an a$$hole, but it’s worth speaking up about.

    • Monday

      Assuming he wasn’t suddenly praying in earnest in front of everyone at a party, then it must have been a joke. For me the real question would be whether he meant it–so often, people “joke” about things they’re not comfortable saying directly.

      It does seem pretty socially acceptable for men to publicly announce that they would like to have open relationships (or 3rd party encounters with another woman and their partners). So with no info at all, my first guess would be that he was hoping you were going to say yes but doesn’t want to actually ask you. If he was hoping desperately that you would say no, I doubt he would find the situation funny in the first place?

    • thanksgiving anxiety

      I default to thinking men are gross so I’d assume he meant that he wanted you to say yes, or at the very least wanted to make that joke in front of friends.

      • Anon

        Yeah, same. I would be really offended if my partner did that. If you want to sleep with other people, be my guest, but we’re not going to be together while you do that.
        (that said, I have friends who are poly and that’s great for them, but it’s absolutely not for me)

      • Anon

        +1. would lead to a serious talk because even if his interest was genuine and not for a laugh, that’s a creepy way to bring it up.

    • anon_needs_a_break

      yuck. If my boyfriend did this I’d be questioning both our relationship and his sense of humor, cause even if he was trying to be funny it’s so cringe-y and cliche.

    • Anon

      Sounds like a joke to me, but dude, you’re in a relationship. Ask him, not us.

    • Anon

      How mature is he? A lot of immature men don’t understand that an “open relationship” means that his girlfriend can sleep with other men. The mature ones know it’s a two-way street. If he’s in the latter category, it’s a joke, part of which is “please don’t say you want to sleep with a guy who isn’t me!”

    • An.On.

      I would assume that’s a joke that he wanted you to say yes. A joke that he was hoping you’d say “no” feels like it would have needed additional clarification, and if it’s not a joke then it’s an obnoxious way to raise the topic for the first time.

    • Lily

      It was a “joke,” and I would break up with someone for this unless there was some extreme mitigating factor (like they had extreme social anxiety or something). He basically said, in front of (presumably) your friends, that he wants to be in an open relationship, without discussing it with you. I would feel absolutely humiliated and disrespected. Not to mention, if he wanted to be in an open relationship (even if he was technically content with not being in one), that would be relationship-ending for me in and of itself. If it happened to someone else, I would have serious doubts about the stability/quality of their relationship.

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