ByElizabeth Hours Updated
Comments 292 Comments

Thursday’s Workwear Report: Textured Pencil Skirt

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A woman wearing a white top, light blue pencil skirt, and nude heels

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

This icy blue skirt from Ann Taylor is perfect for a hot summer day. We’ve talked before about how versatile light blue is for officewear, and I stand by it. Pair with a short-sleeved white sweater for an easy, breezy business casual look or with a navy blazer for summertime business formal.

The skirt is $98 at Ann Taylor (but be on the lookout for sales) and comes in regular sizes 00–18 and petite sizes 00–16.

Sales of note for 1/16/25:

  • M.M.LaFleur – Tag sale for a limited time — jardigans and dresses $200, pants $150, tops $95, T-shirts $50
  • Nordstrom – Cashmere on sale; AllSaints, Free People, Nike, Tory Burch, and Vince up to 60%; beauty deals up to 25% off
  • AllSaints – Clearance event, now up to 70% off (some of the best leather jackets!)
  • Ann Taylor – Up to 40% off your full-price purchase; extra 50% off sale
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20% off
  • Boden – 15% off new styles with code — readers love this blazer, these dresses, and their double-layer line of tees
  • DeMellier – Final reductions now on, free shipping and returns — includes select options like Montreal, Vancouver, and Venice
  • Eloquii – $29 and up select styles; extra 50% off all clearance, plus ELOQUII X kate spade new york collab just dropped
  • Everlane – Sale of the year, up to 70% off; new markdowns just added
  • J.Crew – Up to 40% off select styles; up to 50% off cashmere
  • J.Crew Factory – 40-70% off everything
  • L.K. Bennett – Archive sale, almost everything 70% off
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Sephora – 50% off top skincare through 1/17
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Summersalt – BOGO sweaters, including this reader-favorite sweater blazer; 50% off winter sale; extra 15% off clearance
  • Talbots – Semi-Annual Red Door Sale – 50% off + extra 20% off, sale on sale, plus free shipping on $150+

292 Comments

  1. I like my job, but I am underpaid and I’m not sure if it can be fixed. I started as a Teapot Maker 1 and quickly realized I should have been started as a Teapot Maker 2. After a long time I finally got promoted to Teapot Maker 2, but I recently found out that I am still paid less than the Teapot Maker 1s because the starting salary for Teapot Maker 1 was raised after I started (the starting salary is not negotiable). Teapot Maker 2 is supposed to be a higher responsibility role and I have more experience and longer tenure than the Teapot Maker 1s. My boss made a big deal about how they pushed to get me the biggest increase and now I just feel misled. If companies adjust starting salaries shouldn’t they adjust existing employees so that the most tenured employees don’t end up the lowest paid? We do not get cost of living adjustments and merit raises are in the low single digits, so I can’t make it up that way. Is it worth bringing up with my boss?

    1. Yes. It’s worth bringing up. I would be direct. Say that you appreciate him pushing for the biggest percentage increase for you, but that it has come to your attention that the starting salary of TM-1 was raised after you started, and so you would like to discuss a further adjustment based on that. Have a number in mind and ask for that. You are worth advocating for.

    2. Yes, talk to your boss and/or HR. And can we drop these odd analogies? You can just say Analyst 1 or 2 and it would be easier to follow.

      1. Isn’t it the same? I do find it funny/ridiculous when someone tries to apply the analogy to get into actual details, and then the reader is supposed to interpret the distinction between spout maker, teapot handle quality control and lid painter!

        1. I am a different poster, and I also hate the use of these analogies. In fact, more often than not, when I see someone using them I anticipate the post will be wordy and unclear, so I will often skip them.

          Keep it simple folks.

          1. When I see them I know it is an AMA reader so I expect an odd question (although this Q was not odd).

          3. The other downside of the analogies is that readers with industry-specific experience aren’t able to offer their perspective. If you’re a financial analyst in NYC, someone may be able to offer insight based on what their company is doing or market trends, but can’t with “teapot handle designer.”

    3. Yes, there should be a mechanism for ensuring employees with the company have comp that keeps up with new hires. If your employer doesn’t have that in place, their business is counting on the friction that existing employees won’t job search because they are comfortable/it’s a hassle. Then you can make your decision to stay or go with open eyes.

    4. I think this is basic business these days. In order to get new talent, companies are forced to keep up with market rates but they definitely don’t do that to keep talent. To me, this is career 101. Back in late 2019 I found out my friend who started at our company 6 months after me was making nearly 10K more than me. Less than 6 months later I gave my two weeks notice. I started a new job in January 2020 and then a different job in July 2021. My salary went up about $50K since I had that conversation with my friend. Best career advice, go where you are valued and paid what you are worth! GTFO of your current job. They don’t value you.

      2. Yup. I remember being SO MAD year ago when my firm re-hired a former associate as a partner, at a much higher salary, because they had an urgent need for somebody in her practice area. But that’s just the way these things work. If you want big raises you have to be mobile.

    5. IDK — with work and relationships, it’s hard to change what already is. It is easier, especially with a job, to just find somewhere else without this problem, where things are OK off the rack vs requiring anything tailored for you (which often requires layers of discussions, talks, buy-in, and can have hidden costs like resentment, annoyance, etc.).

      DTMFAMO (even though the MF is a job). Maybe one quick convo with the boss, but if it’s an automatic bases-loaded home run, I’d not think twice about walking.

    6. Are you in higher ed? This is so so common at my public university. People move to a different team to get a better salary for the same job, because the salary is alway better for new hires.

    7. What you should request is an equity adjustment to reflect salary compression caused by the increase to the 1s.

      1. Yes, this. Some employers track a compa ratio, which shows how close you are to the median for the role (this works best if there are a lot of people in the role). Ours is printed on our annual payroll statement. I was able to argue that I was one of the top performers in the role (acknowledged widely) but I was being paid below the median. I was fortunate that my boss and boss’s management all agreed this was a problem and gave me a significant bump (like 20%) but if your boss doesn’t see it as an issue you have to go elsewhere or keep the low pay. I’m sorry.

      2. This. And if they balk, that’s when you walk. It probably shouldn’t be this way, but you and your supervisor are going to have to be the advocates for this.

        1. It’s ridiculous that you like your current company when they have been underpaying you since day 1 and have no plans to fix it. You are not valued there. Time to face it.

    9. You should try a new career–since you write well, how about being a newspapaper reporter? Who makes a career working making teapots? It seems kind of narrow, and I don’t even own one, since I just boil water in a regular microwave. FOOEY!

  2. Does anyone have a recommendation for a guided journal? I think a journal with prompts would be good for me but I’m having a hard time finding a good one online. Thanks!

    2. Lots of these are on Etsy for use with GoodNotes, although you could print them also I guess.
      https://www.etsy.com/listing/1223436331/guided-meditation-journal-fillable?click_key=4f96446fa77596cb24a82d8b4d4e6b3923e0006b%3A1223436331&click_sum=58203444&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=guided+journal&ref=search_grid-800778-1-4
      https://www.etsy.com/listing/1370754847/shadow-work-journal-healing-journal?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=guided+journal&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&pro=1&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

    4. I am not a journal person but wanted to get into journaling during a challenging time and really enjoyed the Michelle Obama journal that was a companion to Becoming! Great prompts.

    5. I like Calm The Chaos. It’s very practical – you use it to set goals and reflect on priorities.

  3. I am trying hard not to panic but need to have a biopsy on my breast for something that came up on my sonogram and is currently classified as low suspicion. Right now it’s all very overwhelming for me, so for those that have had biopsies like this before, how painful was the experience?

    1. My friend and mom have both had biopsies on their breasts. Both are fine. My friend, who is considerably younger than my mom, just has to be very diligent with exams and stay on top of it.

    2. I have had two in the last four years (and results were benign both times). I’m not yet 30, so expect to have many, many more.

      They use lidocaine to numb you before the biopsy. Some people find lidocaine injections painful, but it is shortlived. The biopsy itself isn’t painful, I could feel pressure and other sensations but not pain. Core needle biopsies are spring loaded, so I felt that sensation too.

      Recovery for my first biopsy was very painful but I had very limited pain for my second. My working theory is that it depended on the location of the biopsy. For my first one I had consistent pain for 2-3 days that got worse when I’d have to move or use my arm. For my second biopsy I didn’t really have pain but I did bleed a lot.

      They’ll send you home with an ice pack but I would recommend stocking up on breast ice pads prior to the procedure. For my first biopsy a full-size ice pack was too heavy to use and caused me pain.

      Make sure you have a low support sports bra that you can use to secure the ice packs. I also found a backrest pillow to be very helpful.

    3. I didn’t find the biopsy super painful. The worst part is the lidocaine injection to numb you. The biopsy itself isn’t painful. I found it very, very stressful though (while low suspicion, did end up having cancer, so the whole experience was just stressful). Definitely don’t panic, but understand that it is a stressful experience and most (seriously the vast majority) are benign.

    4. I had a core needle biopsy. I have a terrible phobia of needles and it was still tolerable. The lidocaine burns a little and you feel pressure from the biopsy itself, but it’s over very quickly. I don’t remember any pain afterwards. There was a restriction on lifting my arms over my head for a few days.

    5. You are not alone! I considered writing this exact post last week. My biopsy is scheduled for June 26. Right now, I am trying to focus on better things (leaving for a 2-week vacation on Tuesday). I don’t journal regularly, but I’ve started a combined vacation/biopsy journal. That is helping me get everything off my chest (no pun intended) without freaking out my DH.

      I will be sending good thoughts your way.

    6. I’ve had it a couple of times (and nothing bad was found). The procedure itself is quick and not very painful. Good luck!

    7. I’ve had one that came back benign. The biopsy itself was no big deal. The hard part is waiting for the results.

    8. I’ve done this a few times. No pain that I remember at all — I would rather do the biopsy than this year’s mammogram. Also came back as nothing to worry about.

  4. I’m having friends over for dinner this Saturday – we usually do a big charcuterie board, drinks, and dessert… trying to think of something light but “entree-like” and impressive for the middle. Halp!

      1. Or pistachio crusted baked salmon. I made it over the weekend for a party and it was easy and everybody loved it.

      2. To add to the salmon suggestions: a roasted salmon and bread salad, which is super easy to make and looks and tastes really impressive. This is the recipe I use: https://www.delish.com/cooking/recipe-ideas/recipes/a7500/pan-roasted-salmon-bread-salad-recipe/. It does require some oversight while it cooks – you take the pan out and add things periodically, but if it’s set up ahead of time, you should be able to do it and get back to entertaining, no problem.

    4. Can you do a large but unusual salad? I’m seeing some really funky pasta salad recipes online lately, stuff that is a bit more interesting than mayo on macaroni. A specialty herb/seasoning, trendy cheese like burrata, interesting protein (tinned fish? prosciutto?), grilled pineapple or watermelon, a funky vegetable like radicchio or zucchini strips instead of lettuce, a specialty grain like wild rice or barley…

      1. I’ve been making this Bowls of Goodness potato salad and oh my goodness, it’s delicious! My salad sceptic (lifelong vegetarian, funny that…) husband is thrilled when I make it.

    6. Roast chicken? The Bell & Evans air chilled whole chickens at WF these days are pretty much foolproof; I cook it with a lemon in the cavity and avoid any onion to keep it clean and fresh tasting.

    8. How about pasta pomodoro or some sort of fine pasta with a tangle of good tomatoes and olive oil and basil? Delicious, seasonal, and light (especially with the charcuterie board to start.)

  5. WWYD? My bestie and I are clashing a bit because she likes to get lots of advice from parenting business owners on Instagram and I don’t put much stock in it, but then she thinks I’m dismissing her opinion even if I’m very careful to say things like “it’s not right for our family” or “I’ve found X book more helpful for us personally.” I’ve gone out of my way to say it’s a “me thing” to not want to use instagram for this, but I think she feels that she’s being helpful by passing along tips and is then mad if I’m not interested. I thought I had already made it clear, but clearly I haven’t, and I suspect she feels put off if I reject a tip from Instagram that I’d be more likely to accept somewhere else or like I don’t trust her judgment that it’s a good tip. How would you phrase “stop sending me that stuff” in a respectful way to someone who is feeling unheard? I know it’s not on me to manage her feelings, but I also do think there is value in considering more sensitive phrasing for topics that can be fraught (think sleep training, breastfeeding, etc. – the stuff she likes Instagram advice for and I strongly don’t).

    1. Just say “interesting, thanks!” – it’s a lot easier than actively rejecting the advice and getting into a discussion about it. I have friends who do this with cooking and you never know, sometimes there is a random tip in there that’s useful, even if the genre generally isn’t. See it as your friend trying to connect with you, which is all that is.

      1. I like the idea of reframing it as my friend trying to connect with me, but one of the problems and one of the reasons I stay off of Instagram myself is she’ll send me these tips that only serve to increase anxiety – things like “seven things you need to do to keep your kid safe at the pool” or “why you’re doing X wrong and what to do instead.” Even quickly reading it that one time gives me a little anxiety jolt.

        1. While I think that’s a “you” problem, tell your BFF exactly this, you’re trying to make it about the advice and not the issue. If the issue is insta gives you anxiety, that’s what you say.

          1. Yeah, I guess I should do this. It just sounds kind of dumb to say it out loud but the reality is that those posts are targeted to make me want to click on things that I didn’t know I should be worried about so someone can make money. I’ll just be honest with her.

        2. That’s your thing to manage. You don’t need to read that or respond to it. Just delete those emails and move on.

          2. +1 why are you reading them if you don’t want your advice from IG and you know it will cause you anxiety??

          3. Right. When someone sends me something that I am not interested in, I just don’t respond at all. It’s extinction theory: not reacting to someone also sends a clear message that you don’t want to engage with their behavior and so when they stop getting a response, they’ll eventually stop the behavior. Much easier than forcing a confrontation over something that’s really just not that serious.

        3. If someone sent me that I would say “thanks for thinking of me, but I don’t need anything else to stress about, my brain has all these worries covered!” Every time.

        4. I really empathize with the anxiety jolt and I disagree that this is just a “you” thing. If you’ve explained it to her that way – that it’s a mental health/anxiety thing for you, that you’re sensitive to the sky-is-falling clickbait – and she keeps doing it then she is disregarding a boundary in a pretty disrespectful way. Her desire to connect in this specific way does not outweigh your anxiety when you are subjected to this. And it’s fair to expect our friends to be sensitive to our sensitivities.

          Ime, though, most people who aren’t bothered by the constant PINGing of hysteria-filled notifications won’t understand why those things bother you. It’s like people who naturally speak loudly. By all means remind them to use their inside voice and if they’re a nice person they will oblige. The next time you see them they’re still going to be loud, though. But what your friend is doing is different – rather than say sorry I’ll lower my voice she’s doubling down on her loudness and making you feel like the bad guy for having a problem with it. People have different ways of being in the world and if you care about someone then you make at least some accommodations for their comfort.

    2. Curious, do you have the same number/age of kids? I found that when my first and second were little, I was grasping at straws trying to find “the answer”, kind of like your friend. Now that I have three kids and the oldest is 7, I feel like I’m far down the baby/toddler parenting path and much of the Instagram tips seem trite or I’ve heard them a thousand times. And, like you, I prefer longer form books for information instead of sound bites, and I’m more comfortable trusting my gut on what works for my particular brand of kid. Maybe I’m smug (ok I definitely am, ha) but I do judge the “Big Little Feelings” etc bandwagon. I’ve followed Janet for years!

      There are some accounts I still do appreciate, like Mary Van Geffen, but I’ve gone beyond insta and taken a course with her, etc. And no matter how good the tip, it is obnoxious to keep sharing advice with people! Is your friend feeling insecure and needs validation that her way is “right”? If she’s not hearing you, maybe you want to pull back on expressing your struggles in these areas, or don’t talk about them at all.

      1. Ah, I see you both have one kid, similar age. Maybe she is trying to connect and assumes you are both in the “figuring it out” stage. I agree with letting her know if feels overwhelming/anxiety inducing, or just ignore them.

    3. I have a non-parent friend that likes to send me kids activities and parenting advice to do with my toddler. I have to keep reminding myself that her sending me things or suggesting things does not necessarily mean my friend is trying to assign me more work or tell me how to parent differently. It’s just her way of trying to stay connected. It’s a “me” problem to assume everything coming my way is meant to be absorbed. I think if you stop engaging in her forwards with comments and just keep it short (ex. respond w/ cool, thanks, interesting, etc.) this will naturally die down. Or try to divert the conversation to a different way. Ex. I recently told said friend I’m thinking of re-doing my kid’s room and I’m on the look out for ideas. Now she’s sending me cute kids decoration posts. Which is much more fun for me.

    4. Are you both parents? Is she sharing things that were perhaps new and helpful to her? In that case, an “interesting, thx” feels fine. Unless she’s following up to ask how you applied it, she might just be passively sharing and not need you to counter beyond acknowledging receipt.

      However, if she doesn’t even have kids and is sending along parenting tips that are not helpful, I might want to have a firmer conversation. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I appreciate that you think you are helping, but you know that I love my kid and am finding my own sources. So many people have unsolicited opinions online and it can be overwhelming for me to receive these messages from you when I haven’t asked for help. Can we skip the parenting advice moving forward?”

    5. For what it’s worth, there is a lot of good info on Instagram. I don’t subscribe to Big Little Feelings as a whole for a host of reasons, for example, but have I grabbed a few of their soundbites from the occasional random post that pops up in my feed and resonates? Sure.

      I think being blanket dismissive of Instagram is kind of weird. If it’s helpful information, who cares where you (or she) got it? Now, if it’s a strategy you just simply don’t agree with, that’s another thing. Or, if you feel she’s pushing you to implement these strategies she’s learning about, that’s a different discussion. But trying to argue book > Instagram is a blanket truth is kind of weird in this day and age. FWIW, I don’t deny there are a lot of social media nut jobs out there with accounts with moderate to substantial followings that are wholly unqualified to offer parental advice, imho, but there are def some good ones.

      I agree with other comment, too. She’s probably trying to just connect with you.

    6. Whenever someone texts or DMs me a video I don’t actually watch it and just heart it or thumbs up react to it. Vaguely positive but not at all encouraging.

    7. It sounds like you two are too enmeshed in how to do life — my besties ignore things I send them all the time and so do I and no one is hurt — not all content lands and that seems fine to me. Just don’t click on links she sends? And don’t respond about them? I presume if you’re besties you have a ton of communication unrelated to sharing links. It seems like you feel obligated to click on her links but I just don’t see why you should.

    8. ARE you discounting the information because it’s from instagram? seems kind of prickly to me but maybe just say a thumb’s up or thanks and then forget about it.

      1. Any kind of unasked-for advice, regardless of source, is ass-vice. I’m grateful that I am old enough that half of my parent friends don’t even use Instagram.

    9. I have a family member who does this; when she sends me stuff I just say “I will check it out” and then I don’t. End of conversation.

    10. I’m confused by the fact that she is apparently your bestie and isn’t hearing you when you say something won’t work for your family/kid…

    11. You can do what I did with tik tok – get off of it altogether. I couldn’t keep up with the forwarded videos and am super not interested in the long form ones, once they added those, particularly when it’s in a topic I have no interest in. I just say, “sorry, I don’t have Tik tok, it’s too much of a time suck for me.”

      1. Agree, just get off completely.
        I’m old, so the only social media I’ve ever had is facebook. I just say “Social media isn’t my thing…”

      2. This is what I’d do. If she is texting you IG links (is that even possible?) ignore them. If she asks whether you read the item, say “Oh, no, I’m not on IG.”

    12. My kids are older, but my good friend thought when our kids were little that Dr. Sears was The Almighty Incarnate and “attachment parenting” was the One True Way. We were out for lunch YESTERDAY and while her eldest is applying to college next year, she still took it upon herself to correct me when I complained about some tenet of attachment parenting (apparently what I was talking about wasn’t “true attachment parenting”). I just nodded and we moved on.

      In your situation, I’d just ignore her tips. I wouldn’t even bother explaining why you won’t do X.

  6. I have a group meeting coming up. 3 people who will be there are lovely. One person is . . . difficult and snide and often unprepared. She can yell and get physically in your face and is just a nasty piece of work (and is married to a Very Powerful Local Person, so that is likely why she gets away with this), but somehow I have the target on my back and she hasn’t verbally attacked the other 3 (yet, or that I know of). I know we presume competence and good intentions, but if we are meeting to Implement the Regulation and you have not read the Regulation . . . we may have some issues that become a bit prickly. I will make sure I come with printouts of said Regulation for everyone (and I’ve definitely read and annotated my copy with some items I see being first-level implementation items), but is there anything else I can do to help this not become a sh*tshow?

    Also, I need to mentally become like a beauty pageant contestant here, being verbally positive and smiley and saying bland things and (key thing) not taking the bait, responding calmly to when she is nasty, and politely not escalating or engaging. For one, I don’t want to come off as the crazy nasty person (but the prepared person trying to Do a Task). For another, the Task needs to get done and knocking it out in one meeting, no matter how much I need to grin and bear it, is preferred to two meetings or failing.

    Pep talk?

    1. Sounds exhausting, is this a volunteer activity? If it is, I’d probably quit. Life is too short for that nonsense.

        1. In that case, leverage your boss. Unless you’re the CEO, that’s what they’re there for.

          1. Where I work, I get “Heather, you come to me complaining about Katrina a lot. Why can’t you two girls just work things out?”

            As TSwift would say “It’s me. Hi. I’m the problem; it’s me.” I have that song on almost constant replay when I go on therapy walks.

          2. +2 make it your boss’ problem, or at least make your boss invested .
            I’ve had good luck with “could you please sit in on this meeting to help me figure out how to work with X more effectively?” or “Hey boss, I’m stuck on this and X is getting aggressive- I need your help and backing to keep this meeting on track”

    2. You have a solid strategy and you can implement it.

      For particularly awful meetings I tend to work out my take home pay for that time and splurge on a treat of equivalent value. Thinking that ‘just have to get through X to get Y’ helps.

    3. I know someone, “J”, at work who refuses to read new regulations. So I get tasked with writing the alert on them. That infuriates J, who won’t do work but apparently doesn’t like me to have credit for doing things that are sent to clients. So then J will muscle in and review my work (largely stylistically, b/c I’m not convinced that J has read the substance or understands it). Then J’s name gets slapped on it, usually before my name.

      If I win the lottery, I will write something completely and obviously wrong to anyone familiar with our work and let J slap her name on it (and then remove mine) and send it out for the world to see.

    4. Being doormat-like might egg her on. I think being prepared to very calmly engage her with things like, “Rebecca, as you’ll see on page 15…”, “I’m sure you don’t mean to raise your voice – what I believe is upsetting you is…”, “Please stay seated, Ms. Jones, we’re all working on this together.” And finally, “Ms. Jones, do not raise your voice to me/invade my personal space. I am a professional and I would appreciate being treated as such.”

      1. +1 to this – My most effective strategy is first to be bland/neutral, but if they escalate into yelling (vs. being snide/rude) or getting in your face (seriously, wtf?!?) I would use a script along these lines and deliver it with your best stern and serious face/tone: ‘It understand that you are passionate about the regulation, and I value your input. However yelling and invading other’s physical space isn’t appropriate (add in ‘against our corporate code of conduct’/’against our bylaws’ or whatever other guidelines for appropriate behavior your org has). I’ll give you a moment to yourself while I grab a water/visit the restroom/review these docs.’

      2. I think you will get to “Teresa, please do not call me Prostitution Whore and flip the table.” Sometimes, you just let to let people own their own craziness.

    5. Wow, hard agree that if this is a volunteer situation I’d peace out. I am not spending my time dealing with rude people in my volunteer life.
      Sadly I’ve worked with many a yeller before. My most effective strategy is first to be bland/neutral, but if they escalate into yelling (vs. being snide/rude) or getting in your face (seriously, wtf?!?) I would use a script along these lines and deliver it with your best stern and serious face/tone: ‘It understand that you are passionate about the regulation, and I value your input. However yelling and invading other’s physical space isn’t appropriate (add in ‘against our corporate code of conduct’/’against our bylaws’ or whatever other guidelines for appropriate behavior your org has). I’ll give you a moment to yourself while I grab a water/visit the restroom/review these docs.’

    6. Can you anticipate what her complaints will be so you can flag that bit or come up with some notes to address it? If she’s Queen Bee she may think you’re presenting the Regulation to her so it’s your job to make her understand it. (Maybe also send an email with a “please remember to read the Regulation so we can get through this part quickly – sending initial complaints before the meeting to the email group would also be lovely!”)

    7. Where I work (and in some non-work activities), I see people who want a role for title, prestige, access, money, etc., but don’t actually want to do the work. But they are totally threatened by people who show up to . . . do the work (why is this even surprising?). It’s like they’d be bland and ignorable if surrounded by yes-men or people who just didn’t care. But for important things with headline risk, my CYA instincts kick in. If I can’t beg off of Committee X, then I CYA for my involvement in it if it is rotten and I can’t avoid interacting with it (“Linda, I see that this corporation is not in good standing in State X, so we cannot sign Document Y right now”) and my e-mailing (BCCing myself) goes way up to leave a paper trail (when I wouldn’t need to do that if things were fine).

      It sucks. If you can’t fix what is rotten and can’t remove yourself, CYA is all that is left.

    8. Start the meeting with a statement of purpose: We are here today to Implement the Regulation. Our goal is to get through all of these steps in one meeting, so that we can Implement the Regulation without any more meetings, which no one wants.

      Then, when she veers off task, go back to your guiding principle and consider asking her for solutions. “Thank you for raising this issue. Remember our goal today is to Implement the Regulation. What are some options for tackling this problem and getting us to our goal?”

    9. Don’t allow others to cause you to degrade yourself. Especially when there is zero benefit in it for you. Try to be the cool, calm, and collected contrast to her crazy. Silently enjoy the fact that it likely annoys her not to get a heightened reaction from someone she is treating this way. And if she becomes flat out abusive, cancel the meeting there and then, get up, and walk away. Don’t know your situation, so don’t know if this is feasible or ethical, but possibly have a pre-meeting conversation with one or more of the other participants to decide how the meeting is going to go and how you all will handle her nasty behavior.

    10. I think the best thing you can do to protect your reputation is set very clear expectations (assuming you are the one running the meeting or that is otherwise appropriate). As in, a week before the meeting circulate an agenda and say for this meeting to be successful, everyone needs to have done XYZ beforehand. At the meeting we will discuss ABC and by the end need to have decided/mapped out/whatever 123. Here’s a detailed agenda of how I suggest we get that done to make the best use of everyone’s time …if you propose edits or additions, please do so by DATE

      It won’t change her behavior but it will make you look (and be) very professional and if she won’t follow the expectations she comes off looking bad.

    12. If you’re not leading the meeting, can you try to shake up the dynamic by talking to one or more of the 3 nice participants before the meeting to take their pulse on how best to handle this participant? If she’s only targeting you, it’s possible (not probable – but possible) that you could change your tone or approach to interacting with her. You could also enlist the aid of the other participants to keep the meeting on track.

      Growing up, I spent hours driving around listening to my dad prep for/debrief after board meetings. The time he spent back channeling was at least 2x the actual meeting. It’s essential to getting anything done in a situation where you have to persuade rather than direct.

  7. My nails are a mess. Ridged. Brittle. Break easily. This is fairly recent, I am 47 and on tamoxifen which may be contributing in some fashion. I have been taking hair and nail vitamins and not seeing a difference. Any suggestions for a polish that strengthens?I used to use nailtiques but can’t seem to find anymore…

    2. you can find nailtique on amazon, I recommend number 2. you can also combine with Onyx hard as hoof nail strengthening cream. I have had brittle, thin, breaking nails all my life and when i use the two combined together I can grow out all my nails to be very long and almond shaped, to the point ive had multiple people ask me if I am wearing fake nails and gotten compliments from nail salon technicians.

      1. Second the Onyx Hard as Hoof. In fact, this prompted me to just use it at my desk. I’m on an aromatase inhibitor, so I get the impact on nails and this has helped.

    3. Just fyi if you have vertical ridges that lead to (some items painful) vertical splits in the tip of your nail when they get to a certain length, my understanding is that that is due to a permanent injury to the nail bed.

      I have this and when I used to get manicures, the manicurists would get out “the powder.” Now I do my own nails and have bought the powder. It’s a brush on glue, then you dip your nail into a little pot of powder, and it forms a shield over the top of your nail to prevent that split from opening.

      I have had this nail injury for at least 15 years and nothing is ever going to permanently fix it, so I’m glad I found a work-around. I will post a link separately.

  8. Tips, feedback, anecdotes welcome – trying to tread carefully here and figure out if I need to be more generous or give some tough love.

    I started a new job, which has some flexibility but is generally in office 5 days a week. So I don’t have to miss my kids school concert, but I can’t just randomly decide I’m working from home one day a week. I make high six figures and 70% of our family income. DH works remotely and has prioritized finding jobs that don’t have an in office requirement.

    DH has become a total Eeyore where everything is “a lot.” His job is a lot, the kids are a lot, his mom is a lot, house upkeep is a lot. Any text about how his day is going or greeting when I get home from work is a downer.

    The generous side of me wants to be like it is a lot to be home. It’s noisy, there’s lots of interruptions, and there’s just a ton of stuff going on. In the past, I have had the job with more flexibility so I completely understand everything that comes with being the default back up person.

    The annoyed side of me thinks he might be depressed or wants to tell him to snap out of it. I’m spending 12 hours a day making first impressions so my day isn’t less “a lot” than his is. If the kids barreling into the house at 4:30 interrupts his work day, go work at the library and come home when it’s done. While he might be more physically present, it isn’t like he’s handling all the emotional labor – I’m ordering kids birthday presents on the train, handling all our insurance for a child w special medical needs, and coordinating play dates over text. We have a full time live in nanny and a housekeeper. I’m out of the house from 6am to 6pm and when I get home, I immediately jump into dinner time w the kids and doing bedtime.

    It’s definitely an adjustment with my new job, and I want to be patient, but I’m getting a little fed up with his woe is me attitude. Any advice on how to approach this?

    1. I’ve been where your husband is, just really overwhelmed with everything. Wellbutrin helps, but he also needs to do some centering and think about what’s important. Not sure how to say that in guy-speak. Can you have a date night or schedule another getaway for just the two of you to relax?

    2. From what you wrote (tons of household help, and you definitely pitch in as well), my gut reaction is ‘what could he possibly be stressed about?’. But in those situations, it’s been helpful for me to check in with DH, so maybe sit down and ask how this transition is going for him, for you both really.
      Part of it is recognizing that he is doing tasks that have been invisible to me or I didn’t appreciate the amount of effort. Sometimes he has been stressing feeling behind on something that doesn’t even matter, and we decide to drop it or find a simple fix together. Sometimes it’s work stress bleeding into home life. Talking about that helps a little bit, too, even if a fix is harder. Maybe he can work out of the house one day/half day per week, as you suggested. Sometimes it’s good to make a list together and be on the same page about to-dos and shared priorities.

      1. Working from home and caretaking is stressful. If she said it was hard for her, we’d all tell her to outsource. Maybe an after school helper would give him relief.

          1. Yeah, if they have a FT live-in nanny and a housekeeper? OP’s husband is being kind of a pill, here. IMO.

    3. He sounds depressed to me. Or he is an A-hole.

      I mean… he has it golden. You bring in the money with the high stress/long hours job. He works from home and has a full time nanny and cleaner to take the home responsibilities to an easier level. And he has no commute. And he doesn’t do the family organizing/emotional labor. And he can’t even bother to start dinner?!?!?!

      This is ridiculous.

      And I wonder like the other poster – could he be depressed? Maybe working from home isn’t so healthy for him?

      I’d start with trying to sit down and have a talk with him. Make it clear that YOU need help, and you are worried about him

    4. Commiseration. I had to mentally imagine giving my husband a ‘snap out of it already!’ speech a la Cher to quiet the immediate reaction of ‘this isn’t that hard, just suck it up and deal!’. Because as you know, it IS a big deal for him and yelling won’t fix it. I wound up using lots of neutral statements/I statements (therapy speak, but imho it helps to avoid escalating a tense topic). So something like ‘I know my job has been a big adjustment for us as a family and I’m noticing that you seem more stressed/tense/etc. I understand that you may need some new support or help right now – can we talk about what might be helpful? (make some suggestions – can you sign him up for a coworking space part of the week? get more help? give him some dedicated time away). Maybe he’d also like to have a reset conversation about ramping up his own career (could be that he feels jealous/stagnating?).
      Good luck – this is really tough and I can totally see both sides. I’ve been the primary parent with the lower paying flexible job for the first 6-7 years of my son’s life but then took two big new jobs over the last 5 years which was a lot of change and hard on us to re-balance and find a new equilibrium!

      1. I also can see both sides. I personally became pretty depressed working from even though it was better (in theory) for my home life. And in his shoes, I too would be overwhelmed with the flurry of activity inside the house. I don’t deal with that well; DH couldn’t care less about the interruptions. But obviously OP is doing a ton, too.

        You gotta talk to him. It’s okay to gently call him out but he also needs to help come up with solutions.

    5. I’m sufficiently introverted that I can see where DH is coming from. Your suggestion of the library is a bit flippant. It isn’t nothing to pack up all your stuff and move out for a few hours to get work done; it’s even less so if you need your office setup (large screen, real keyboard, ability to take calls) AND you have to book space at the library in advance.

      Your best solution is that you all have a family meeting about how the house is your husband’s office and everyone – kids, nanny, housekeeper – need to respect that between the hours of 8 am and 5:30 pm (or whatever he works). Maybe a full time, live in nanny is more stress to your husband; a nanny who works 40-50 hours a week might be a better fit. Maybe a different nanny and/or housekeeper would help.

      1. Heck, #firstworldproblem, but I find it distracting when I’m working from home and our biweekly cleaner is here. It can be hard to have other people in your space when you’re mentally trying to stay in work mode, even if they’re trying to make your life easier! Since it’s infrequent, I deal without complaint because my house is getting clean. But if that were a daily thing, I would be going crazy. Not sure what the solution is here, but clearly something about this arrangement isn’t working for your DH. It’s probably a combination of needing to suck it up, setting better boundaries, and maybe reevaluating whether it’s actually helpful to have extra people around.

        1. This. I acknowledge it wouldn’t be an issue for 90% of people but given my need for silence, introversion, and distractability (ADHD) the weekly cleaners ARE disruptive. Having work done on our house (rennovations usually) are guaranteed to result in at least one meltdown per project not matter how much I try to manage my stress levels. I joke about having a bit if PTSD from two simultaneous bathroom renos (burst pipes) but seriously it was really bad for my mental health to be ‘working’ while also having to project manage two renovation projects on top of the disruption/hassle of 4 ppl crammed into 1.5 baths.

      2. We’ve had our nanny for 8 years and she’s a part of the family, so that definitely isn’t changing.

        I think that my frustration is mostly that he seems like he can’t get out of his own way solving the problems (which maybe does indicate some depression). During Covid I had to work from home and my door was locked from the inside during market hours and my kids and nanny knew it was as though I wasn’t in the building.

        He seems like he wants to be able to eat lunch with the kids some days but then gets annoyed when they run into his office other days, or wants to be able to work at the kitchen counter and then gets irritable when everyone gets home after school activities and his workday isn’t quite done.

        The suggestion of working from the library wasn’t meant to be flippant, he works on a laptop and it was more a suggestion to get out of the house so he gets to choose when he comes home to the chaos rather than it coming to him. But I don’t think you get to choose to work from home with 4 kids and expect that the entire building is a silent sterile office either.

        I just like want to shake him to snap out of it, but I am also an unrelentingly positive person, which I know can be annoying. But like you have the flexibility of choosing where you work, you have a lot of help, you have a financial safety net, like stop grousing about everything.

        As a side note, it is not an option for him to stop working. I do not want to be a sole breadwinner and I do not think it would be healthy for our relationship.

        1. You’re missing the point. He wants to eat lunch with the kids but not have them barge into the office three hours later? That’s reasonable! When I worked 2 miles from my house, my husband would meet me for lunch, which in no way gave him permission to crash my office at 3 pm. The kids need to respect that boundary.

          Does he have good office space? Four kids plus parents plus nanny = six bedrooms. Do you have a 7+ bedroom house? Does he feel like he has to work from the bedroom? (I refuse to do this and if he can’t, it’s fine.). Does he have dedicated office space?

          1. Haha I mean good luck telling a 2 and 4 year old that they need to respect that boundary – I feel like it’s a little on the adult to put the boundary in place and also have clear predictable expectations for young kids. When I was working remotely I said goodbye to the kids as though I was leaving for work and came back downstairs when i was finished and and able to re-enter mom mode. I think it’s challenging to switch between mom and work mode so I made it clearcut. He wants it blurry but then seems pissy that it’s not black and white.

            Yes it’s a 6 bedroom house with a dedicated separate office and bathroom. I’m very organized, maybe bordering on o c d and his office is a mess and I feel like it’s not a pleasant environment to work in… so he creeps out to other parts of the house. It should be a beautiful spot to work – big windows, fireplace, exterior doorway to a little courtyard, but he has it covered in papers and won’t even let the cleaners in to clean.

            Honestly the more details I share the more frustrated I get!

          2. Hmmmm…. I would be very frustrated too.

            You sound…. totally amazing… can I just say? I’d like to marry you.. but I digress.

            Is the messy office/refusing to let anyone clean it (!) a new thing, or is that the way he has always been? Has he always been the negative/glass half full type, and you were always balancing it off? Has he always just wanted to vent, and not follow and ideas for improving his situation?

            If these are a new change, or worse compared with his baseline, then I would also be concerned about depression. I would try to talk to him at a lower stress time (weekend?), being non-judgmental and tell him that you have noticed that he seems very unhappy recently. And just listen.
            You need can simply tell him you love him, and are concerned, and also starting to feel frustrated/down/hopeless about improving the situation. Let him know it is affected YOU too, not just him.

            But if this is the way he has always been. Either you could try to tell him he needs to make a decision to improve his work day. Only he can fix this problem. You are right – he needs to Do it the way you used to do it (with a 2 and 4 year old….), or leave the house to work. He needs to stop being a baby, if he isn’t depressed, and fix it…… or start couples counseling (ugh…).

          3. OP – you need to have a talk with your nanny about keeping the kids out of your husband’s workspace during the day. I understand he’s the dad, but she’s a full time paid employee who is there to provide childcare, and she needs to be actively involved with the kids all day during her working hours. I can actually understand your husband’s frustration, if he’s trying to work and the little kids are underfoot and the person paid to take care of the kids is maybe not being proactive about keeping the kids occupied. If your husband wants the kids out of his airspace, it’s the nanny’s job to do that. Make the nanny be more proactive about managing the kids.

    6. Don’t send him texts asking how his day is gong. I’m serious. My husband can complain anything, it’s his nature, and we have worked out a peace where I have stopped trying to fix the things he’s complaining about. He doesn’t want them fixed. He just wants to complain. I honestly just change the subject.

    7. Why on earth is he working remotely if he hates it and you have a full-time nanny? Seems as if he’d be a lot happier in the office.

      2. Or not working? If “high six figures” (I’m assuming this means at minimum $500k) is only 70% of your household income, you don’t need him to work.

        1. She needs him to keep working so she doesn’t have to pay him spousal support in the event of divorce.

        2. Sometimes people say “high six figures” when they mean high 100K, like 195K. As a mathematician, this hurts me.

          3. It’s high six figures, like $800k in a good year but fluctuates, and I’m not willing to be a sole breadwinner. I feel like my high salary provides him a financial safety net and in return I too want a financial safety net of a second income.

            We also have 4 kids which makes some outsourcing like a full time nanny a must have, not a nice to have.

        3. My partner not working has worked way better for us. Having to wrangle care around his shifts and my court commitments was challenging, and it saves us $$ on outsourcing.

          1. +1 Life is a LOT easier with one parent at home. Even with all the money in the world to outsource, a SAHP provides a flexibility that’s very hard to replace. It’s an unpopular opinion here, but I think it’s also better for the kids to have a parent at home.

        4. This guy doesn’t seem like he’d be happy being a SAHD at all. This is bad advice.

      3. Maybe he wants the lack of commute, because time spent commuting is time not spent with your family or on hobbies.

        If you have the money, co-writing space or even an office (in an office building) could be great. Find one that’s a short drive away (maybe five minutes).

    8. You’re annoyed, but that isn’t going to change him. I suggest trying to work with him to figure out what’s going on – like a truly compassionate conversation that you’re concerned about him, wonder if maybe he’s depressed, what does he think would help? And really listen.
      The fact that he is struggling isn’t a commentary on you, so try not to take it that way, but hopefully you two can be a team on the problem solving because that will best serve your family.

    9. A lot of this post could be about my husband, who has struggled with depression in the past and has taken medications in the past. However, it doesn’t sound like he may be at a point where he wants to try meds. DH is very introverted but really doesn’t do great working from home. He is the type of person that really prefers getting a lot of his adult social interactions at a job, which he doesn’t get WFH. At a previous job, he was pretty much on conference calls all day, so he would be too exhausted to do anything with people after work, but then would complain he hadn’t actually seen any people the whole day. He now has a job with less calls and got a coworking space– it is not cheap, but it has dramatically improved his mental health.

    10. What exactly is stressing him out? And why do you have to make dinner after a 12hr workday? Could either DH or the housekeeper do it?

  9. Suggestions for where my mom and I could go for a week in late August or September? My mom is in early 70s, widely traveled and healthy and active. We’re leaning towards Europe but open to other areas. We both like nature and scenery and don’t want to spend a lot of time in a city, although I understand we’ll probably need to fly into one. We both enjoy swimming and sailing, and being near the coast would be a plus. My mom does not want to cruise (even on a very small ship) because of Covid risk, and we’re not looking to spend the $$ for a private yacht charter on this trip, so any boat trips would probably just be day trips.

    1. Domestic, but Lake Placid or Newport?

      The WSJ article this morning re some Russian guy being held under house arrest in Milan (or somethere) make me yearn for house arrest in Milan (he escaped to Russia, ankle monitor be damned).

    2. It might be hard to get spots for this summer, but what about a whitewater rafting trip in the US? You can do a lodge to lodge trip on the Rogue River that would be perfect.

      1. Posted too soon, meant to add that the trip finishes near the coast so you can easily spend time there too.

    3. Nova Scotia. Drive the Cabot Trail, stay at the Glenora Distillery, Keltic Lodge, and somewhere in Baddeck. Fly into Halifax and stay there your first and last nights it’s cute.

      1. Nova Scotia is beautiful, but if OP is going to the East Coast I find Newfoundland to be even more spectacular, the nature there is something else. Plus St.John’s is a surprisingly delightful city with amazing food and super cute architecture.

    4. Greece? August is super busy for this but you could fly into Athens and do island ferries. I really liked the Saronic islands, which are close by to Athens, especially Hydra which doesn’t have cars. Or the Azores are supposed to be amazing – I’m seeing flights out of Newark in August although they aren’t especially cheap.

      1. We were thinking about the Azores but I don’t know anyone who’s been. If anyone here can tell me more about them, I’d love to hear.

        1. I’ve been to the Azores and they were amazing! We went to two of the islands, stayed in converted old buildings that are now lodging, went to a ton of natural hot springs, and beautiful walks and ate great seafood. If you post a burner, I’ll try to find more info from our trip and send to you.

    6. Mallorca, south of France, or Sicily would all be nice at that time of year. If you have flexibility with the dates, I would personally lean toward September. It will definitely be less crowded, but still lively, in all three places.

  10. TL:DR – drama with best friend’s fiance/seeking advice.

    Last weekend, me, my best friend, her man (let’s call him Dave) and his friends were slated to go to a concert. Friend and I came from one location, after a very emotional situation (visiting a very close deceased friend’s apartment). Dave spent the day day-drinking after a binger of a night, and summoned us to hang out with him and his guy friends to drink pre-concert at a different location, even though we were already running late. His intentions were kind, but we (best friend and I) remided him thatwe really want to get going to the concert, we had just gotten an alert from the venue that it was oversold/traffic was insane, and we were exhausted from emotional situation. Dave then raised his voice at us, saying we _had_ to come, at which point I raised my voice back to meet his tone and said, we have two cars, we’re happy to meet you there, we don’t have to drive together. Also, since we all made a plan two days ago to tailgate at the concert venue, and you told me to buy food and bring drinks, we should tailgate there. Also, we’re currently sobbing from just being at emotional situation, so we need a few minutes to decompress–we do not want to hang out and drink with you and your friends right this minute and be even later to the concert. (We had all agreed on tailgating plan and I was asked to buy >$100/food for this tailgating). So, my friend said, we’re not coming to hang with you, but we can see you there. (Best friend was 100% on board with this.) The entire exchange was maybe thirty seconds.

    Dave came to meet us (leaving his friends) and drive with us. We went to the concert, no issues, no indication of anything. Dave was like twelve sheets to the wind, drunk off his rocker, smelled terrible, nearly incoherent for the car ride, and after.

    Fast forward three days and my best friend has advised her man’s ego was bruised that we yelled at himin front of his friends because it was emasculating and he never wants to see me again and she is now forced to choose between her man and me (best friend of 20+ years). I have been told I must apologize, for her sake.

    I would never have raised my voice at him, except he yelled at us, and his tone was very, “Listen little lady, you and friend are coming to hang out with me” when that was not ever the plan (friend told him multiple times all day we were not coming to hang out. I don’t let anyone talk to me that way. Anyone. Not at work, not at home.

    I’m truly not in the wrong here, and my best friend agrees, but how do you reason with a post-drunk person with a fragile ego who now hates you? She says I must apologize to Dave because they’ve been fighting over this for three days.

    I don’t want to lose a 20+ year friendship and I don’t normally have friend drama. Is the only way out of this to eat crow for someone else drunkenly behaving badly?

    I’m exhausted from this, and it kills me that my best friend is being treated this way by her man (who she is engaged to). They’re a pair forever. I don’t normally dislike him at all–he’s usually great.

    So–would you apologize? Agree to meet him to let him air his grievances? Where to from here?

    1. Is he an alcoholic?

      Like, I don’t know any guys who are “usually great”, but drink all day after partying all night and come to group events wasted. I mean… how old are you guys… 20?

      2. +1 this 100% sounds like the behavior of an alcoholic or someone who is trying desperately to shift blame for their behavior onto you. I would not apologize or meet with him. I WOULD gently restate to your friend that this is not normal or rational behavior, that you’re sorry she’s dealing with it, you are always here for her, but that you’re not going to apologize as this wasn’t acceptable behavior.

        1. 2nd this, and also, your friend is expecting you to solve HER problem, which is that her fiance was a real jackass while drunk. I think you’re in a no-win situation, OP.

      3. Not the person you’re responding to, but I was assuming that the deceased friend was his friend too and this is how he is coping. So OP’s friend is giving him a pass because of his grief.

        I could be projecting, because this situation is very familiar to me. Our friend died and my then-fiancé decided to drink to cope, so I had to deal with his drunken mood swings on top of everything else. I eventually left him because he got violent with me. Good men do not abandon their SO to grieve a mutual friend alone, certainly not for days on end, and then double down on their bad behavior.

      4. Yeah, it’s kind of funny to me that you would do some thing that causes you to sob and is that emotional, and then you’re trying to go to a concert after a few minutes to recover. This feels like people who are young without a lot of emotional control on any front.

        1. Well, let’s see–my friend died two months ago, and we had to go to her apartment when her family was ready, which happened to be the day of the concert and about three miles from the concert. The reason it happened this week was because her memorial service was this week.

          We all live an hour away. We went to her house at 230pm, the concert was doors at 430, first act at 7, and the band we wanted to see at 8pm, so none of it was close together. We planned to pick up Dave around 430, and he happened to be down by the concert, hanging out by a pool, because that’s where he and buddies were. At no point did we want to hang out by a pool right after vising our friend’s place, and even though the concert was close, concert traffic meant it was going to be at least an hour in the car before we tailgated.

          I sincerely hope you never have to deal with cleaning out a close friend’s house after they die. Not something I’d wish on anyone.

    2. In this situation, I would probably do the reality show half apology- “Hey, Dave. I am sorry we got sideways over the weekend. I was feeling sad and I think you’d had quite a bit to drink and we were miscommunicating. But you know I love you and I want to move on because we’re gonna be in each other’s lives for a long, long time.”

      1. OP – I watch Summer House, and this is the classic script!

        And as for our ages, we are mid-forties. So–well past drama-stage, generally.

        He is not normally an alcoholic, but he does have these boys-weekends where he goes very large. The rest of the time, he is a normal social drinker/a very kind and conscientious person, truly. So,he’s an alcoholic only occassionally!

        But I agree with all of the assessments here that what is bothering me most about this situation is that he’s putting my friend in the middle and making her choose me, when he should respect her enough not to do that, and respect that our friendship is real.

        And thanks to the poster who posted about DARVO below. Fascinating.

    3. Probably not. I might say Karen, I’m going to have to process this; you do know that Dave yelled at me, yes? Maybe he didn’t remember because it seemed that he had had a lot to drink.

      1. Yes I’d do this too. No fake apologies from me, and if my friend is going to really choose her drunk man child over me and our 20 year friendship, then she’s not really my friend.

    4. I would not apologize. The reddest of red flags in this whole thing is that he’s giving her an ultimatum and “making” her choose one of you. I would tell her I love her and will always be there for her no matter what she does/decides, but that I won’t be apologizing. Then I’d let the chips fall where they may. (The reality is that she should choose her self which = picking the person who does not give you ultimatums. But that’s not what you asked.)

      1. +1 – I’d also read up on ‘DARVO’ as this sounds like a pretty classic case of it (deny, attach, reverse victim and offender): The abuser denies the abuse ever took place, When confronted with evidence, the abuser then attacks the person that was abused (and/or the person’s family and/or friends) for attempting to hold the abuser accountable for their actions, and finally The abuser claims that they are actually the victim in the situation, thus reversing the positions of victim and offender. It often involves not just playing the victim but also victim blaming
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

    6. Absolutely. I’d apologize not apologize, though. I’d take the “understand I upset you and I’m sorry about that. Tough day, emotional, lots going on stressed. Don’t want to have this come between us, I love you and friend.”

      2. And I’d do this because your friend is going to need you when they eventually divorce. Lifelong friends are worth a little crow.

        1. THISSS. DH was able to rekindle a friendship that broke exactly this way (nightmare fiance made a me-or-your-friend ultimatum). Fried stuck to fiance, and the friendship cooled, but she ultimately dumped him, and the guys are pretty good friends again after the divorce.

      5. Yes, this, if and only if in your deepest gut feeling truly believe this was one-off. If there’s any hint this is recurring or that BFF is hiding that this may be happening more frequently, big nope on this approach because it’s red flag central.

      6. Yeah, I think I would probably do this. And keep him at arms’ length going forward, and make sure my friend knows she has a soft place land with me if/when she ever needs it.

        I’ve been the person with the Very Bad Partner, and it’s hard and awful and doubly so when all your friends bail on you.

    7. Thoughts:
      1. It’s not your job to “fix” her relationship issues (with an apology, or whatever the ask is)
      2. If this was truly a unique incident and he usually never acts like this, it might be worth a low-pressure sit-down in a public place.
      3. If this is typical of him, you can be very matter-of-fact with your friend – “I didn’t like how he was treating you/us, so I said what left appropriate in the moment. If he wants to have a conversation, as adults, with me (not using you as a messenger) that’s fine, but I won’t be a doormat just to appease him and his bad behavior.”

    8. Lees your dignity and let the chips fall where they may. Never, ever apologise when you aren’t in the wrong – ask me how I know this.

    9. How old are you? Why is this “great man” getting wasted when he knows this fiancee is doing something incredibly emotional and will need support? Are you her main source of emotional support normally and her fiancee is just sort of along for the ride? Has he always been this much of a drinker?

      I know this is easier for people outside of the relationship to say, and one snapshot doesn’t mean everything, but this doesn’t seem like a good, supportive relationship for your friend from the outside. The fact that he’s trying to isolate her from you is a real red flag to me. Honestly I might apologize only to make sure that she keeps you in her life because on these facts I would be trying to convince my friend to extricate herself from this relationship and want to make sure she has someone to go to if things deteriorate further.

      Is there someone else you can talk to about this? Therapist, uninvolved friend, even a DV hotline to get a second opinion about what you’re seeing here?

    10. The guy had a binger, then drank all the next day. And during that time he was repeatedly wanting friend to come be with them (“friend told him multiple times all day we were not coming to hang out”). Then insisted again. Then was drunk at the concert.

      ???????????
      How can this be a “usually great” guy?

      1. Right!? And then a “her or me” ultimatum and “hurt feelings” on top of that.
        “usually great” guys just do not behave like that.

    11. How do you reason with a post-drunk person with a fragile ego who now hates you?
      You don’t.
      Do not apologize to that man. Not even a half apology. You never need to speak to him again if you choose.

      2. This is true, but obviously it could have ramifications for the friendship that OP and many other people would not find worth it.

    12. You’re going to lose no matter what you do. If you apologize it sends him a message that he can get away with this kind of thing any time he wants to. If you don’t you risk losing your friend to this guys ultimatum.
      Although I can tell you from experience that if she stays with him, this guy will find a way to separate her from you regardless of what you do right now.

      2. Yes, yes, yes to this. I posted above that I wouldn’t apologize. But, if you want to give apologizing (or fake apologizing) a go right now, you’ll definitely get another opportunity to hold your ground and decline apologizing. This, or something like it, will happen again. 100%.

        1. I agree there will likely be another opportunity. And I think refusing to apologize makes a lot more sense the second time. Half apologize this time.

          But it’s 2023, so you can certainly armchair diagnose him to your friend, insist that she call a DV hotline, and then ghost them both because they are toxic to your mental health, and you’ll get lots of likes for that approach, too, just not a friend at the end of it.

          1. No armchair diagnosis is necessary. The dude’s behavior towards OP and his demand for an apology are out of line. She doesn’t need to indulge this. If dude’s girlfriend insists on an apology then her behavior is also out of line and she can bear the consequences.

          2. How are you this unaware of how abusive men twist the mind of the victim in 2023? OP’s friend is acting like a battered woman. OP can fake apologize for the of her friend or not. But the isolation is part of the abuse that sometimes end in death.

      3. I agree with this. Also he has an alcohol problem. You don’t need to drink daily to have an alcohol problem.

    13. Absolutely not. And I’d tell my friend that I’m sorry she’s in a difficult spot but I won’t be apologizing to her drunk misogynistic boyfriend and I’m sad for her that she’s choosing to stay in that relationship

    14. If you do apologize this time it’s only postponing the inevitable. What will you do at the next drunken confrontation? Or will you avoid him going forward. Also who is to say he will accept an apology or non-apology apology. Maybe if you friend sees she is losing people from this jerk she will rethink the marriage.

    15. This is boundary testing behavior from him. Notice the pattern. When he acts badly and she doesn’t react, he acts even worse: he gets drunk for days, isn’t available to support her, demands she has to hang out with his drunk friends, yells at you both. Then when she pushes back he stops (temporarily): he demands you two go to his house and she says no, and everything is peachy for the rest of the day. Now he’s revisiting that boundary by demanding an apology.

      If it truly were a miscommunication I would just apologize and be done with it. But the boundary pushing behavior is not something I would give into. I would text him something like, “friend let me know that you were upset about what happened before the concert. I’m upset about it too. I know you don’t want to be the very drunk and disrespectful person that I saw that night, and I know you don’t want to make us feel uncomfortable or like we have to stand up for ourselves. I look forward to sharing better times with you in the future.”

  11. I posted a couple weeks ago about the unexpected negative review as a sign to start the job hunt. Well I reached out and I have four (!!) interviews in the next couple of weeks for in house roles. For folks for have made the switch from big law to in house, any advice? I’m n not sure what the right answer is for why I’m looking, even though I know why each of those potential roles sounds interesting. Two mid size startups and two bigger enterprise clients.

    1. No advice, but big Yay! for you for putting yourself out there and doing the Thing!

    2. In-house people know why law firm attorneys with several years experience at an up-or-out firm are looking. You really don’t have to say much.

    3. The right answer is company focused, you want to have one client, the opportunity to be more proactive and involved in the business, you want to fix things before they’re problems. You aren’t looking for an escape hatch (we all know you are and we were too, but you need to have the judgment not to say that).

      1. +1000

        We all know why you’re leaving, we want you to have enough savvy to come up with a better spin. And also the whole “counselor” part really is more counseling in house. By the time someone goes to outside counsel, the deal or whatever is a go. Before that? Lots of pros and cons that various teams manage.

    4. Please check out the goinhouse.com interview guide.

      It is not surprising to any of us ex-biglaw folks that there comes a time when biglaw is no longer doing it for you. When you’re in biglaw, you see this as some sort of shortcoming or failure, but once you have more perspective, it’s not–you have time for other pursuits than being on-call 24/7, you can become more of a generalist than you could be at a firm/broaden your skillset, and you get to give real, risk-adjusted, practical advice to clients. And there is a path to very good money/stability in house too. It’s not a shortcoming to want to get off the treadmill!

      It’s a completely fine answer to say that you’re ready to move in-house at this stage of your career because you are senior enough to funtion independently, and you’re excited about [what company does] and working more closely with [business team you’d be advising most] on [main points of job description], as you’ve often worked on [main legal areas of job] with clients as outside counsel before.

      We hire not just for technical skills in-house, but for your fit with the team and your ability to be a team player who rolls up your sleeves (these are good phrases to throw around). We also like it when people talk about being practical–companies cannot always get to 100% compliance/best practices, but we can risk-adjust our approach and be reasonable.

      You’re gonna do great! All the best.

    5. I don’t remember if you had kids or not, but something that I found dramatically different with in-house jobs was how openly people talked about their kids and commitments outside of work. Coming from a firm, in my first round of in-house interviews, I did not bring up my kid until most of the way through the interview, and everyone was so excited to talk about him.

      I eventually decided to lead with my toddler in my “why are you looking for a job” answer in future interviews. Part of why I was looking was that for me to progress at my firm, I would have needed to do a substantial amount of travel, which I wasn’t willing to do because of my kid. This answer seemed to come off really well– it wasn’t negative about my firm, workplace, or myself; saved us all time if the job actually was going to require travel; and allowed people to start small talk about their kids early in an interview.

  12. My husband and I are planning a trip to Norway in September. We have about 12 days and are focusing on the western fjords. Does anyone have any recommendations for hotels, restaurants, day tours, or don’t-miss-sights? We’re active, love hiking, and are planning to hike Preikestolen and Trolltunga. Have also heard Norway in a Nutshell is a great experience.

    1. I went to Oslo, Bergen, and Flam for my honeymoon and had a wonderful time. Pingvinen in Bergen is a great spot for dinner, and taking the funicular up to the top of the hill behind town and walking down was beautiful. We took trains and ferries rather than rent a car and loved seeing the country that way.

      1. +1 to public transit – both in Bergen and Oslo and the train between the two were easy to navigate.

        The Kode Gallery in Bergen was great – the day we were supposed to go on a fjord cruise was super foggy so I did that instead. If you’re geocachers, there’s one at the top of the Fløibanen funicular.

    2. Norwegian here. :)

      You don’t need 12 days for the fjords. They are lovely, but you really don’t need 12 days for just the western part of Norway. Don’t just do the coastline. If you like hiking, go to Jotunheimen and do the Besseggen mountain trail, the inland mountains are very beautiful.

      Balestrand in the Sognefjord is great. There’s an interesting traveller’s museum and a church that was the inspiration for the church in Disney’s Frost. There’s a lovely historical hotel.

      Geiranger is the most beautiful fjord in Norway.

      Flam is very interesting, and if you’re sporty – take the train from Bergen and bicycle down the Rallar way – the winding road down the mountain where prisoners of war during WW2 made the Flam railroad from Myrdal to Flam. Stay at least one night at the EGIR micro brewery hotel and take the Flam railway back up the mountain.

      Fjaerland is the book city of western Norway. Historical hotel, lots of second hand book shops (yes, there will be English books!) all over.

      Trondheim – not the west, but the western coastline of middle Norway. See the Nidaros Cathedral. It’s part reconstruction, part original medieval. One of the gargoyles has the face of Bob Dylan (really! it’s a modern reconstruction) The museum shows the Norwegian crown jewels. Stay at Britannica, one of the historical hotels, presently owned by the family who’s the local equivalent of Trader Joe owners.

      Go north – Lofoten, Tromso, the northern coastline – it’s stupidly beautiful. Do the Hurtigruten cruise for parts of the way.

      There is hiking EVERYWHERE. Don’t worry about finding the perfect place. Everywhere will be perfect.
      September can be great, but it can be borderline autumn, so bring warm clothes. Bring good gear, don’t take chances, be safe.

  13. I took a job almost two years ago in higher ed/academia. My pre-pandemic, pre-academic work life was heels, pencil skirts, dresses, etc. I’m mid 50s.

    I have been wearing those clothes for the most part; I do have block heels that are ok for the extra walking but am looking for something more comfortable. I feel like maybe I don’t fit in as I don’t see many skirts and dresses. I also have printed skirts and maybe those are even more off? My colleagues wear mostly easy/soft pants or jeans. However, I ran into the president yesterday and felt unprofessional as I went too casual.

    Maybe this is industry-dependent, but would you still wear – a snake print skirt? Tweed skirt? Solid pencil skirts? Any skirts – what are you seeing? Are trousers out? I have bought a few more pants that I wear with flats or the block heels. For Fridays, do you keep it professional on top with jeans?

    Appreciate your help.

    1. I’m in UK academia so YMMV but I see a lot of interesting trousers? So linen in an interesting colour, paperbag waists, etc.
      But honestly, my colleagues are pretty scruffy (social sciences)

    2. I’m a dyed in the wool skirt wearer, also mid 50s, and I’m just not wearing skirts anymore. It’s all trousers now. Try finding a skirt in a mainstream store – they’re not offered. Just wear your same top pieces with your new beautiful, well-made trousers, and ditch the heels. That’s also no longer happening. Loafers are most popular but don’t work well for my feet so I wear flats and low heels.

      1. I know we’ve embraced flat shoes, and I have, too (even pre-pandemic I was wearing an array of interesting loafers), but I get a lot of good attention when I slip heels on, and I still feel more confident wearing them for work events. I think it is fine to keep wearing them, we just don’t “have to” anymore.

        1. I’ve never been to a college campus and seen anyone clacking down the cobblestone paths between buildings in high heeled pumps. It’s a know your workplace thing, and OP is posting because she’s realizing she’s out of synch.

          1. And I was responding to the statement that heels are “no longer happening” and she should “ditch” them. Certainly day-to-day an academic doesn’t need/want to wear uncomfortable shoes, but she can certainly pull out some block heels for a big meeting or an evening event.

      2. It is ironic that this comment is on a post suggesting we consider purchasing a pencil skirt currently for sale at Ann Taylor.

    3. I’m in higher ed and your age. Things changed after the pandemic in terms of what mid- and higher-level staff and faculty wear. I’m wearing a lot more trousers and often boots (flat or low heels) instead of pumps.

      We are technically business casual, but I tend to dress on the higher end of that because of my contact with university leadership and donors. Our president (female) mostly wears pantsuits or a dress or pants with an unmatched blazer. I also see a lot of the Eileen Fisher look, especially from faculty in their 50s.

      For my own part, I’m done with pencil skirts except for knits in the winter. I’m wearing wide-leg or straight trousers with blouses or nice sweaters, comfortable cardigans and blazers, and midi-length dresses with fuller skirts.

      1. I am 42 and love pencil skirts but b/c of the pandemic my tuchus has caused me to buy more fashionable A line skirts, which has been good for me since Frank does not grab my tuchus any more.

    4. Not in higher ed, but I work with lawyers. I am not seeing pencil skirts or prints on the lawyers at all. For the courtroom, I am still seeing structured dress + blazer, matching or nonmatching depending on the court. Block heels for court. Outside of the courtroom, dressy jeans + blazer or occasionally dress pants + blazer. Loafers or booties. Support staff do wear skirts, soft dresses, and prints.

    5. Kindly, I think you’re overdressing for academia. What you’re doing is not this extreme, but imagine if someone at a business casual job showed up in a suit every day. It would show they weren’t adjusting to the culture of their new job. I think you need to find clothes you feel comfortable in that isn’t out of place in higher ed. If you like skirts could you try one in a more casual fabric, like cotton or jersey? One disclaimer, I work with laboratory scientists. If you’re working with, say, historians, my thoughts may be 100% off.

      1. I think this is probably not the best analogy. Academia tends to be very “you do you” in terms of attire. So you can be casual if you want (in most cases), but you can also dress nicely if that’s what you want. I don’t think anyone is going to look down on her or think she’s a poor fit for the job just because she dresses nicely.

        1. Yep. 10 years in academia, and “you do you” is definitely the dress code at my private, elite, liberal arts school.

    6. I have a c-suite job and my solution is to dress up and down. Some days when I’m just meeting with staff, I wear jeans and sneakers, very casual. Others, I do a full corporate look, typically for bigger meetings but often enough to keep up the executive image, if you will. I find those outfits easier to put together (I’ve been dressing up for work for decades) and this approach works better for me than trying to change my whole look.

    7. Your post is a bit all over the place. Trousers are not out, what are you talking about? Before you said that you’re not seeing many skirts or dresses – then how can trousers be out? Higher Ed is casual, but surely no Winnie-the-Poo casual?

      1. Can confirm that it’s not. And the dress code varies widely depending on where you work on campus. I’m in administration and we are definitely more dressed up than our counterparts in the colleges and departments. There, it seems that anything goes.

        1. One of my favorites is a high-profile researcher who shows up every day in loud Hawaiian-print shirts and sandals with socks. I don’t even know where he finds these shirts, as they aren’t subtle like Sir Tommy Bahama. We live in the Midwest, so it’s quite a choice and stands out, lol.

          1. I’m guessing this prof has a role that no one else can do, like theoretical physics or abstract math.

          2. Professors are known for their eccentric dress, it’s not limited to physics and math.

          3. Yeah I had an econ professor in grad school who wore a Hawaiian shirt and Birks with socks every day. Once you get tenure you can wear whatever you want, especially if you aren’t in the law school.

      3. What? She said she’s seeing easy/soft pants or jeans and those are not trousers. I mean, I wouldn’t wear Eileen fisher crepe to court but I’d wear wide leg trousers. And, yes, people on college campuses can be pretty sloppy.

      2. Counterpoint: I’m seeing more pencil skirts and predict they will be back in the next 3-6 months. I’ve kept ones I like and that fit well, but am wearing them with oversized or architectural tops instead of traditional blouses or cardigans and chunkier shoes or boots than in 2019.

        1. Like the one at the top of the page that is the subject of today’s post . . .

    9. Higher ed since 2019, which was the last time I saw a pencil skirt. I do sometimes see skirts, but they’re flowy midis, not tailored pencil skirts.

    10. I’m in higher ed. What is your role? I’m seeing a lot of women in trousers (straight or wide leg), pretty tops, and either a casual blazer or cardigan. I don’t see a lot of skirts, especially printed ones. I see virtually nobody in pencil skirts anymore. Sometimes sheath dresses on a dressed-up day. I personally can’t stand wearing jeans in the summer, so my Friday uniform is usually a more casual dress than I’d wear the rest of the week, or a pair of looser, more unstructured pants paired with either a more polished t-shirt or cotton blouse. Usually with a dressy sandal or pair of loafers.

    11. I’m fully remote now but pre-pandemic I wore super casual clothes. Jeans, t-shirts, casual sundresses etc. I wore leggings as pants while pregnant. I have no interaction with upper administration though.

    12. I agree that pencil skirts are gone, but I’m still wearing a lot of flowy midis. I wear them with loafers and sneakers and block heels in cooler weather, and sandals in warmer weather.

    13. I think it might be a good exercise to pick a clothing brand you like/have bought in the past and look at their website or catalog for what they’re showing now in their “lookbooks” or on the front page of their website. Retail brands are having to continually refresh, and their designers and stylists have to stay on top of what is on-trend, but wearable, in whatever demographic they serve. I am just going to throw out there some places I would look, if I were you: J. Jill; Talbots, Banana Republic, Ann Taylor, LOFT, J. Crew. A lot of what you see will be casual but you can see the general “vibe” of clothing and pick up on silhouettes. As one example: I think the pencil-skirt silhouette is very dated; I don’t see anyone wearing those any more, and I imagine if I went to buy a brand-new pencil skirt from a brand that focuses on fashion-forward clothing, I would have a hard time finding one. I would have no problem finding looser-fit trousers, longer blazers, or square-neck tops this season, those are everywhere.

      One other tip: if a brand is offering a piece of clothing but there’s maybe one or two colors available and it’s not featured in any of the lookbooks – it’s tucked away in some back corner of the website or catalog – that usually means they are continuing to offer it for the few holdouts who are still wearing that item and haven’t updated their wardrobe. It isn’t a hard and fast rule, but something I consider when I go to buy clothes.

  14. Happy Pride Month! I’d like to purchase a shirt from an LGBTQ nonprofit or activist, as opposed to a generic corporation. Any suggestions for your favorite apparel?

    1. The best person to answer this would be Dr. The Orginal…, but she hasn’t been around much recently.

      1. So we had a whole discussion a couple of weeks ago that we need to let people depart or return as they see fit, and we don’t need to continually bring up the names of people who have (seemingly) departed in sad, lamenting ways. Since so many people post anonymously, we don’t know if Dr. The Original is here or not. I hope she is still reading here – I liked her and miss her posts. But doing what you did here is just making things weird and – I think – is an oblique way of shaming (anonymous) commenters (who likely don’t care/can’t be shamed by you for their actions) for (supposedly) “running people off.” Yes? If that’s the case – just say what you want or need to say. No reason to beat around the bush.

        1. Hum, I think I’ll pass on taking advice from someone who thinks the way you think.

    2. Give your money to the nonprofit instead. All these months (cancer awareness, etc.) are such an unfair boon for corporations. Just give your money.

    5. The apparel is generally made by generic corporations, and in countries where the people you want to support would be in danger of persecution and quite often prosecution.
      Give your money directly to the organization so they get all of your donation, not just the proceeds.

      1. She didn’t ask about how to donate, she asked about how to get a t-shirt. I swear to god, this place sometimes . . .

        1. She mentioned not wanting to purchase from a generic corporation. The activists and non-profits have to get the shirts from somewhere and the shirts tend to be made in developing countries with questionable human rights, so…

    6. It’s a fashion blog. She wants a shirt. I don’t see the point of refusing to admit that buying a shirt is ok. You don’t know that she doesn’t already donate but also wants a shirt.

      1. The basis for my comment about donating above is that people seem to generally be under the mistaken belief that by purchasing a t-shirt or whatever other merchandise to support fill-in-the-blank cause, you’re actually supporting that cause. Realistically, your money is much better used giving directly to that cause. So instead of buying a $25 t-shirt with perhaps $3 going to the cause, give your $25 directly. Or buy a $10 t-shirt from target and give $15. If her goal is to be a billboard to show herself as an ally and she doesn’t actually care about themonetary support for the cause, go buy whatever looks best to you. If you actually want to provide real, meaningful support give directly.

          1. I kinda think you’re the exhausting one. I provided a reasonable explanation of my comment. I’m sorry you disagree.

      2. +1. Also, you never know who will really, really appreciate seeing that visible sign of support.

    8. Based on responses here, I’m glad I’m not the only one that is jaded with corporate cash ins on the cause de jour or cause of the month. Agree giving to organizations is far better, but a t shirt is often times a thing an organization would sell anyway. I hope you find the perfect thing!

    9. I am a fan of wearing LGBTQ-themed campaign apparel sold by candidates/politicians who support rights for the community. It serves the purpose of not just advocating for the community, but also communicating how others can advance the cause/preserve rights.

    10. I would look at the Bitter Southerner general store (esp. if you’re in or near the south)

  15. I am not the best at responding to text messages (unfortunate, but working on it). We moved across the country from a close friend and I did a great job keeping in touch the first 3 or 4 years, but recently have been very terrible at it. She reached out recently and I don’t know how to explain my lack of response! I really like this friend, to the point that we would love to come and visit later this summer. She is a wonderful person and I’m the jerk that just keeps forgetting to respond or message her.

    Does this sound ok: “Hey, thank you SO much for continuing to reach out. I miss you and would love to catch up and hear what’s new with you! I’m so sorry I disappeared for a bit. Work has been overwhelming and life has just been speeding by. Can we catch up this weekend?”

    3. This sounds fine. I usually go with “I’m SO sorry I dropped off the face of the earth, I responded to you in my head but I just realized I didn’t actually text you.” But that’s if it’s been a few days, if it’s been a few weeks then I think your script is more appropriate.

    4. That sounds perfect. If I were in her position, I’d be so glad to get a message like that.

      2. +2. I have friends who don’t respond, and it makes me sad. This response would cheer me up.

    6. Can you schedule a regular phone call with this person. If you want to stay in touch with her, you need to either make it a priority to answer texts or find some other way of communicating.

    7. I would cut out the “continuing to” and the apology and keep the enthusiastic response with a request for a scheduled phone call/video chat over the weekend. I’d then make the apology during the call with a statement about really valuing the friendship and wanting to keep in touch/visit.

  16. I’m going to a couple of shows in Vegas this month. I have a lace top that seems appropriate (will post a link below), but what should I wear for bottoms that aren’t jeans?

    2. Coated denim pants or skirt (or leather)
      Jean skirt
      Flowy wide-legged pants with a pointed-toe shoe

  17. How much (cash) do you think is appropriate to send our nephew for his HS graduation? Is $100 about right?

    It’s DH’s half sister’s son, who we basically never see. We are super excited for him and are happy to be more generous but don’t want it to be inappropriate.

    1. Just did $100 for our HS graduate nephew, so yep, I’d say it’s the exact right amount!

    2. $100 feels very high to me for someone you’re not super close to, but if you afford it I’m sure the kid will appreciate it.

      1. So this is what I’m worried about. We aren’t close at all. He lives across the country. But his family doesn’t have much in the way of means and DH and I are the wealthy coastal contingent of the family. We are happy to be generous but don’t want to overshadow other, closer, family. DH’s parents are paying for a portion of his college (they also have pretty significant money) but the rest of his family is not in that kind of position.

        1. Oh I don’t think you need to worry about overshadowing people. The kid will be thrilled. I’m just cheap and live in a LCOL area and wouldn’t feel the need to give this much. I give more like $25 to distant family and $50 to kids I’m close to. $100 is the standard wedding gift where I am. But since you feel generous, I think it’s perfectly appropriate.

        2. $100 is not overdoing it. Add a reference to the fact that the money is to help with college start up costs.

        3. Don’t worry about overshadowing other gifts.

          Do consider if this would set a precedent or expectation for how you will treat future grads in the family. If you are fine with that, then go for it!

        4. $100 is fine. Stop overthinking it. A nice note in the card along with the $ saying how happy and excited you are for him is great too.

    3. Years ago after one too many conversations in which we tried to use degree of closeness, obligation, what others are likely doing and so on, about how much to give or spend on a random cousin’s graduation, co-worker’s daughter’s wedding, college friend’s second wedding, etc., we decided everyone gets $100 cash, gift card, or gift, unless there is a glaringly obvious reason to do more or less than that. Such as they are throwing a particularly fancy wedding and we were going to it – more $$$. Or the invitation is to a child’s kindergarten “graduation” – less $. I think $100 sounds about right OP, but then I always do.

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