Thursday’s TPS Report: 3/4-sleeve faux-wrap dress
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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Sales of note for 2/7/25:
- Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
- Ann Taylor – Extra 25% off your $175+ purchase — and $30 of full-price pants and denim
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 15% off
- Boden – 15% off new season styles
- Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
- J.Crew – Extra 50% off all sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything including new arrivals + extra 20% off $125+
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 40% off one item + free shipping on $150+
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- My workload is vastly exceeding my capability — what should I do?
- Why is there generational resentment regarding housing? (See also)
- What colors should I wear with a deep green sweater dress?
- How do you celebrate milestone birthdays?
- How do you account for one-time expenses in your monthly budget?
- If I'm just starting to feel sick from the flu, do I want Tamilfu?
- when to toss old clothes of a different size
- a list of political actions to take right now
- ways to increase your intelligence
- what to wear when getting sworn in as a judge (congrats, reader!)
- how to break into teaching as a second career
I have this in gray and purple. Love it. Machine washable, travels well. Highly recommend.
what about the hole in the side? it’s gotten bad reviews on br’s site.
i tried this on and the hole in the side killed this dress for me. i don’t want to buy a dress and HAVE to wear something underneath to avoid my skin peeking out through the side!
The hole totally killed the dress for me, too.
The discount is only 20% and the code is BRJAN20
I have BRSALE30 for 30% off!
Thank you! Just used this code to get the dress in black.
I have this in gray – it is a bit big on me right now (I got it at about 3 months postpartum) but is a very nice dress. I usually use a safety pin at the neck to get the neckline up a little (and then I put a necklace over).
Going to order this dress now, thanks for the tip!
Threadjack: What are some blogs run by professional women, that are about their jobs? It’s a difficult thing to search for. I’m looking for more blogs to read. I like blogs like Cupcakes & Cashmere, but she doesn’t have a “job” in the traditional sense, and I’d like to see a good personal blog by someone that does have a traditional job.
Hmm… the discount code didn’t work for me. Says “select customers.”
A group of female programmers & I have been thinking about starting one as well. I think you might just motivate me to do so. :)
I was just thinking about that. I don’t know of any IT focused blogs for women. I mean I love corporette, but it’s definitely not 100% for me.
Do it, both of you! I’d read them, for sure.
OOOOoohh, please, I’d be a loyal reader!
That sounds like motivation to me. I’ll aim to get a prototype up this weekend. Ill let you all know when its up
Emma, you might find the following worth reading
http://www.itworld.com/open-source/92129/a-few-resources-women-open-source
and maybe
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/58218
Wow, I want a professional blog for female programmers! I actually thought of starting one at some point, but couldn’t think of what I’d write about.
http://chicwithbrains.com/ now exists for us girl coders.
…and the tagline could use some work, but it is a prototype, right? right?!
Kaye, if you ever decide you’d like to write an entry, just let me know. :)
I don’t know but I’m thinking about starting one, as I have to do something to be creative – or work on firming up my exit strategy…
Do iiiiit. I would love to just read about more women’s experiences who are in my boat, and I think others would as well.
I don’t know of any. I think that most women in professional fields are not comfortable (or permitted to) discussing their jobs online like that. Most professional women bloggers I know of focus on something besides their work, like fashion, personal finance, body image, etc. The only women bloggers I know of who write about their “jobs” are the ones who are professional bloggers and writers or professionals in the fashion industry, and there are some good ones in that field – http://www.eatthedamncake.com/and http://youlookfab.com/blog/ come to mind but I know there are a bunch of other ones I like too.
There are a few career blogs that can be a good read, written by career coaches, so I guess that qualifies as blogging about their jobs. I sometimes read The Thin Pink Line, and there’s one called The Brazen Careerist that has been recommended to me although I haven’t read it much.
Ugh. the word “and” should not be part of the URL for Eat the Damn Cake. It’s just www (dot) eatthedamncake (dot) com
For some reason it won’t let me post the URL as a hyperlink again, sorry.
Going to check them out now…
I can’t do Brazen Careerist, for a number of reasons. You should read a few of the latest posts, and let me know what you think.
Wowow! Makes me wonder what the Unabomber’s blog would have looked like, had he blogged.
Note: Until a few minutes ago, I’d never read her blog before.
I just read the most recent post (the one about the broken lamp). She needs a therapist. And perhaps medication. FAST.
Ok, I just read a little more. Apparently she has Asperger’s and I feel a little bad about my above comment. But just the same, she needs some help – breaking lamps over your head is never a good sign.
What in the world was that about??!! She BROKE A LAMP OVER HER HEAD and seems to feel that was an appropriate thing to do.
I’ve got enough drama in my life, I don’t need hers. I do, however, wish those kids well.
Oh wow. I hadn’t looked at that site in ages, just remembered that one of the blogs I really like always links to it. Sorry about that!
No, don’t apologize — she has a ton of readers and is well known as a career expert. That’s the interesting/weird part. If you read it regularly, you see that she’s extremely narcissistic and her advice appears to come out of nowhere. But yet she’s got so many loyal fans. I find the whole thing fascinating.
I took a peak and I want to stay away. I cannot take that much neurosis.
Actually, neither of the coupons mentioned works. BRJAN25 is a valid code, but it apparently didn’t apply. And BRJAN20 is invalid.
But then I remembered that I have a BR card so I checked my email. BRSALE30 works today only, but has a 30% discount plus free shipping.
BRJAN25 worked for me an hour or so ago.
I received this dress as a gift and returned it. I found it to be too close-fitting for my personal tastes. I’m tall and slim with defined muscles and I found that you could see my hipbones, muscle definition etc through the fabric which made me uncomfortable (kind of how you can see the model’s hip bone in the purple dress photo). I’m 5-8, 125lbs and it was a size medium, tall.
Also, the neckline (on me) was extremely low – as in, you could see the band connecting my bra-cups, low. Even if I’d kept it, I couldn’t have worn it without a camisole.
Not bashing the dress (or those who wear it as I’m sure there are many women out there who can rock this dress much better than I could have), just trying to provide a review.
I have it too, and I agree with this review. I never returned it, but I have only worn it once (to dinner, not to the office) and I felt uncomfortable the whole time.
I also went and tried it on after all the raves about it here, and it did the same thing to me. Clung so closely that it showed every little body bump and lump.
Glad to hear your review, and also CW’s comments below. I might be able to get into this dress, but I’d definitely need shapewear and even then there’s no hiding my bubble gut. Pet peeve: when the copy says the garment “looks good on all body types” but only shows the garment on a tall, thin, flat-stomached model. (Might be a Gap Brands thing – the last time they came out with a curvy/straight/whatever denim line, they still showed them on what are, to me, tall long-legged people…)
I also got BRSAVE30 in my e-mail. It’s online-only, but I just might be able to get to BR today to try this dress on in person.
I ordered this and returned it because it was so low cut (like FRA, you could see my bra band). I tried it with a cami underneath, but then the dress is so clingy that I got a weird line from the camisole. I then tried with a cami tucked into spanx underneath, which looked OK, but not great, and that seemed like a lot of hassle for a dress I wasn’t in love with.
I have this dress in purple, and while it’s low-cut, the low part is very narrow – in fact, on me (B cup) the fabric from each side of the V overlaps so much that you can’t see anything, and a camisole isn’t necessary. I also have not had a problem with the hole in the side of dress (there is one, but I don’t have to do anything special to hide it. It just stays hidden!) I am thinking of picking up another color with all the sales.
Slips, people, slips. They work wonders! I wear one under every non-sheath dress to work, and sometimes under skirt/blouse combos, and it gets rid of visible hip bones/lumps/bumps/etc.
I really want a slip, but a swear that stores don’t seem to sell them. All I can find is shapewear and things that look like negliges.
Can you buy a slip for under $20?
I find most of my slips at Kohl’s, though you do sometimes have to search for them.
I have it in navy and I think maybe I bought it too small (one up from my usual size actually) because it’s a bit too vavaboom for work for me. It also picks up too much lint for my liking after the first wash. But maybe I got one from a bad “batch.”
I think wrap dresses look terrible on me – they highlight every lump and bump that I’d rather minimize. Am I the only one who thinks this? I know tons of people who love wrap dresses and think they’re flattering.
They look fine on me I think, but only with the proper undergarments (a skirt slip or even a full dress slip)
The fabric makes a difference to me. Thicker fabric wrap dresses ‘hang’ better and don’t cling as much, while synthetic/thinner fabrics cling to everything.
I steer clear of these. I think these dresses highlight every little lump and bump. And shapewear just consolidates it but doesn’t hide it. I need a bit more coverage, and I don’t have ALL that much to cover up.
It’s hit or miss for me depending on fabric in terms of lumpiness, but I think that wrap dresses make my shoulders look wide (I already think I have broad shoulders).
Depends on the person, but wrap dresses suit my shape perfectly. Knowing this, my boyfriend bought me this very dress for my birthday in both of my favorite colors, teal and purple (but with his 40% BR coupons, he assured me). Very exciting :)
I wish I could wear these–they’re so lovely and flattering on some people.
I think they look terrible on me too. I want to like them and have tried everything from DVF to 9West and have never found one that flatters. I’m in pretty good shape, but even with shapewear they are a no go.
This is a great dress- as long as you don’t accidentally dry it. I loved it the first two times I wore it, then I accidentally dried it and the length shrunk 2 inches and you can see *every* lump, bump, and bone in my midsection now. It can’t even be cured with a judicial application with Spanx. Sniff.
oh, maybe this was my mistake with it …
PSA – if you get this dress, please wear a slip with it! The fabric is clingy and you don’t want to show more than you meant to show while you’re walking quickly down the hall or if you get caught in a breeze!
Thank you for posting this tip! I’ve been eyeing this dress for the past 6 months. Can’t wait to try it out.
I bought this dress last year and promptly returned it. The fabric looked cheap, the neckline was too low, and there is a big hole in the waist that detracted from the dress. If you buy this, I definitely recommend sizing up because it looks way too sexy otherwise. I see that many people rave about this dress, so obviously take my opinion with a grain of salt. If it helps, I usually wear a size 4 in dresses and am kind of pear shaped.
What is the hole for? Is that where the wrap “strap” comes through from the other side?
Right, exactly. The hole is way too big for some reason, the wrap strap goes through but there is lots of extra space there. It’s really strange.
I feel like I saw this dress in the store on the sale rack back in the fall – and there were a TON of them on the rack (ie they were there for a reason). Anyone else?
Aside: I just wanted to share some makeup findings for anyone else who is sick of her go-to eye products.
Over the holidays I did a bit of beauty shopping pour moi and decided to experiment with navy mascara, and also a discontinued color called “aubergine” from Lancome. I also got “burgundy” eyeliner, but on the cheap, because I was afraid it would just make my eyes look red. At any rate, I assumed all of these would be nights/weekend only. However, they are all surprisingly flattering yet subtle! I don’t know how to explain it, but they look different from the usual black/brown without being at all wild or juniors-esque. In fact, you would never look at me and think “she’s wearing navy mascara.” So I am wearing each of them to work, and very grateful for the variety.
My coloring is sort of Snow White, if that matters. But I want to encourage ladies to experiment if they have been hesitant! These kinds of colors are not nearly as “out there” as they seem.
>These kinds of colors are not nearly as “out there” as they seem.
Seconded! I’m a caramel-colored Asian and received BeneFit’s Bad Gal Lash mascara in blue when it was included in some gift set. Turned out I LOVED it – the color is very subtle. The only caveat is it’s not cry-proof at all – weeping in the car after a particularly bad parental visit left me with horrible bluish-purple streaks.
Weirdly, I picked up another Bad Gal Lash in plum, since plum usually looks stunning on me in clothes, but it doesn’t do much for me on my lashes.
I couldn’t agree more! A few years ago I picked up dark navy pencil on a whim, and it’s amazing how it makes my eyes look all alert and perked up, instead of tired and puffy. A thin line with black mascara doesn’t look at all noticeable but my whole face looks better as a result.
Love navy mascara too, but have been hesitant to wear to work even though I don’t think anyone would notice. Haven’t tried Lancome or Benefit, yet, because I’ve been incredibly impressed with, and devoted to, Bourjois navy mascara with the flat wand. But haven’t seen those being sold recently so may switch – thanks!
And, agree on the plums — love plum shadows, but never noticed plummy liner or mascara doing much for me.
My own contribution/tip to “new makeup” is a bit boring, but very fabulous: Smashbox O-Gloss. It’s like high-tech mood lipstick. Basically gives you a perfect natural shade, not too shiny, not sticky, no weird taste, and you don’t even need a mirror to put it on. It’s amazing!
Relatedly, I tried a copper eye liner (I’m blonde/blue eyes, very fair tinging to pink skin) and LOVE it. It is totally subtle and lovely, and looks so much warmer on me than even dark brown and especially black. I think it sets off my eyes really nicely, but doesn’t scream too much. I also have a gold eyeliner that does similar nice things. I tried moss green but don’t feel the same pop. I guess we should all branch out a little, see if the color is not as shocking as it looks on the box.
Seconding (thirding?) the comments on plum, gold, AND blue . . . I recently went with a friend to get our makeup done at a counter before her holiday party, and the gal used a ivory sweep over the whole area, gold on lids, plum in the crease, and a greeny-blue liner. I thought I was going to be appalled, but it is super flattering (my eyes are normally gray but with the gold and greeny-blue, they sparkled a deep green) and good for day and for night with a heavier application. I bought the eyeshadow quad, natch.
Today’s WSJ has a good review of several makeup sellers who offer makeover suggestions: http://on.wsj.com/gLA1LH.
I bought a wonderful little eyeliner sampler from Smashbox last year that contains ten little pots of colored eyeliner. (Like this, but with jewel tones for my coloring: http://www.sephora.com/browse/product.jhtml?id=P260309&shouldPaginate=true&categoryId=3990). It was wonderful to experiment with different colors. I’ve discovered that purple is wonderful on me (redhead) no matter what clothes I’m wearing. I also love navy, hunter green, copper, and a greyish-taupe (better than black). I now find eyeliner to be one of my “key applications” — even if I don’t wear eyeliner or mascara.
One the downside, I don’t get much “sticking power” with this particular brand of cream eyeliner, but it was a useful purchase to experiment with colors. Now I know what to spend money on.
An update for all the helpful commenters who advised me to go home and take it easy a couple of days ago when I posted about nausea/heartburn and tiredness.
I did end up going home early, and at home found I had a fever of 100.4. Called into my nurseline and took tylenol. Ended up staying at home yesterday too and I went in to the doc. It wasn’t appendicitis, thankfully, but viral gastroenteritis. So I continued to have low-grade fever and upset stomach symptoms but am a lot better today and transitioning back to a (limited) diet of solids.
Thanks everyone for telling me that it wasn’t just third trimester symptoms but something I needed to take care of!
On a different note, I used to have the constitution of an ox but now in pregnancy attract every single bug within a mile of me! Very low immunity. Coughs, colds and flus have all found me from afar. Anything I can do other than the usual (drink water, take vitamins)?
Should I actively try and stay away from large crowds of people (networking events/conferences) for the next couple of months?
Now that I know what’s wrong with me, I remember that I met someone a couple days ago who said they had pretty bad viral gastroenteritis but “was recovered now”. Clearly they were still infectious, since I think I caught it from them (handshaking, hug and talking). Any tips to avoid this in the future?
Thanks again everyone.
I know what you mean! When I was pregnant, I had terrible colds and my first ear infection and most people don’t get ear infections anymore after they are 5 years old! I don’t think you can really avoid viruses unless you live in a bubble, but I would highly recommend washing your hands frequently (or using hand sanitizer or wearing gloves), and trying to get lots of rest, which is hard during the third trimester. Find what works for you – some people have recommended a body pillow or the Boppy wedge pillow but for me, 5 regular pillows gave me the best support (even though I’m sure DH felt quite crowded).
Yogi brand tea makes a blend called Cold Season that is good for your respiratory health. I find that it actually does help me clear my sinuses and breathe a bit easier. I don’t know if the herbs and leaves actually help with immunity, but it helps with symptoms.
I think it’s fine to just not shake hands, and instead say “I have low immunity due to my pregnancy and my doctor’s advised me not to shake hands.” When I have a cold, I don’t shake hands and I just say “sorry, I shouldn’t shake hands because I have a cold” and no one has ever seemed to mind. And just be extra-vigilant about not touching your face without first washing your hands, etc.
Oh, the same brand also makes a ginger tea that I find really calms my stomach when it’s upset. It’s especially good for indigestion.
Just be careful with herbal supplements — some have been linked to preterm labor, which clearly you’d want to avoid. Check with your doctor.
Yogi tea also makes an immune defense tea.
They taste awful in my opinion (I know some people love them), but they do seem to help a bit, psychological effect or not.
I am a big fan of their cold season pack — it’s a sinus, throat, immune defense and something else sampler.
Any good ginger or chamomile tea should help indigestion, too.
For Samantha: I swear by a product called Oscillocosynum by Boiron (sic?) for warding off the flu/boosting immunity. It’s homeopathic & should be safe (it says you can give it to small children) but double check with your doctor. It can be a miracle if taken at the first hint of flu & sometimes I just take it before heading into germy environments like a long flight, etc.
Otherwise, I would just say wash your hands a lot and drink lots of tea and water. Good luck.
Wash hands a lot, for a long time (20 seconds) and dry thoroughly, and don’t touch your face! I find that I touch my face a lot, and when I make an effort to wash hands all the time and touch my face less, I don’t get sick as much/as severely.
Also, try to get a lot of sleep if you can – I found that I would get sick when pg if I wasn’t getting enough sleep.
Sorry you’ve been sick. I’m in the middle of my third tri and, knock wood, have not been sick at all. I think it’s because of my obsessive tendencies – I never touch anything in my office (such as my keyboard or phone) or my face, or anything, after touching a “common” object such as a door handle. I rarely touch anything common anyway at work (use a paper towel for the bathroom door, my key card for the elevator, etc.) If I do touch something (like a gas pump or grocery shopping cart) I wash my hands or use hand sani immediately after. I always wash my hands right after I get home before touching anything in my house. It sounds crazy, but to me it’s just habit and not actually that often because I don’t really touch things.
Threadjack. So, all that talk about sticking to a budget reminds me of my own money issues. My DH and I are frugal and live frugally because we’re saving for a house in an area with a good public school system. Then comes his parents, who have made some bad business decisions in the past and have never lived well, despite their own frugality (I hope that’s an actual word). So, we save some money and get all psyched about our savings and then in-laws casually mention something that they can’t afford and DH’s siblings jump into action and send the parents a couple K’s. Since DH and I make more than the siblings and their spouses, we basically need to send the equivalent or more. Other thing that’s kind of annoying is that siblings want us to go the extra mile and send the parents on a really nice vacation, best hotels, etc. and I just don’t think that’s necessary. Sorry, I know I’m venting a lot but thanks for letting me vent.
Say no.
IMHO reasonable human parents who wants to be on good terms with their adult children would not force their Grand kids to go to a horrid school because of their own incompetence and/or greed and/or guilt issues.
Suggestion – set a maximum $ amount you will spend for each side of the family (including holiday & birthday gifts). Let the siblings, and if necessary, the parents, know that you have “budgeted” for everyone and have no more to give when you’ve exceeded that amount.
NO! You do not “basically need to.” It was nice of the siblings to do, but you’re not rolling it extra money. That money is earmarked for something and there is no extra.
If you need to say something, just say, “we wish we could have but we’re actually still quite a bit shy of what we need to buy a house in the school district we’ve selected.” So what that you make more money? If you want to do something nice for his parents, then do, but it doesn’t need to be in the range of thousands of dollar, or be an unnecessary luxury like a fancy trip. It sounds like they might need REAL support in their old age, and it would be a different story if this were siblings jumping in to fund elder care, but it’s not. Say no and give a small gift ($100 range) if you must.
How does your husband feel about this? I agree that it’s likely his parents will need lots of help as they get older and you guys might looked to as the primary helpers. As the airline videos say: put your own safety mask first before assisting others. It sounds like the other siblings aren’t really being financially savy, wanting you to spend money on things that aren’t actually important (now if it was elder care, that’d be a different story). Explain about the school districts and have a budget and stick to it. Don’t be bullied by the other kids.
Husband finds it annoying and tries to hold the line, but the siblings are going to go ahead and give money anyway. It’s not that we are being bullied, it’s that if we don’t give, it will look like *I* am cheap. Siblings are clearly the dominant ones in their marital relationships and I am positive that their spouses suffer from it.
Why do you care if your husband’s siblings think you are cheap? What real, measurable impact will their perception of your frugality have on your day-to-day life? Not trying to be confrontational here, but I am trying to make a point. :)
So what if the siblings are giving more money? This shouldn’t even be a discussion IMO. I do not tell people (even my siblings) what presents I’m giving to my others (even our parents). It’s not a contest.
They are family, but you don’t have to buy their affection.
If they think you are cheap, so what. That’s their problem. Meanwhile, your kids will be going to a great school.
I agree that it’s annoying.
Non-confrontational way to refuse to contribute a high amount: Can you say that much of your funds are “tied up” your funds e.g. in 5yr deposits, in your 401K, children’s education fund etc. and your paychecks get auto-deposited into these different accounts so you have little liquid income to spend on unexpected things? You need to budget these things in advance (esp if its 1K or more!) and can’t come up with it on the spur of the moment.
Is it really obvious (to them) that you and DH make more than siblings/spouses? If not I would try to remain low-key like you can’t afford more than them.
That’s a good idea! I would also make a point of working it into general conversations as frequently as possible (and asking husband to do the same) that you are saving up and that you want to make sure that you get in a good school district. Might help folks understand that you are working towards a goal, not just hording your cash (not, of course, that you shouldn’t have a right to hord your own cash that you earn, but it might make everyone feel better about the whole thing).
This might be a cultural thing and very biased with my local customs, but I will share my two cents and hope you are not offended.
Usually, in my country we are expected to help parents when they are in a financial/health crisis or another distress. This is because they take care of their children’s finances until a late age (common for us to live past 40 years at the family house). So depending on how much sacrifice the parents did for DH, he might want to help them a bit as they get through their crisis. If what the siblings sent is not enough, then there is no harm that DH helps some more.
However, for the vacation, hotels and all other extras, you have no obligation to pay for that or even to feel sorry for not doing it.
You have children or plan to have some and you want to ensure a good education, this is clearly a priority over sending the inlaws to a vacation.
I am not offended at all and thank you for your perspective. In a way, I am looking for more views like yours to make me feel better about the situation. The parents did sacrifice a lot for DH and the siblings and I recognize that.
I’m with Houda. I’ve never once been unhappy after giving money, especially to our parents. We’ve been blessed, as it seems you have, and have lived well within our means and have been lucky enough to share this with the people that we love.
My rule is to never *lend* money – we only give it away. Of course, don’t let it put you in any kind of cash crunch, but parents will not be here forever. My fondest desire it to have no regrets when our parents pass away . I never want to think “I wish I had done something great for them when they could have appreciated it. They did so many great things for us.”
I agree. This could be cultural. It’s an accepted thing for children to help out parents in my country as they support you usually till you get married (education/wedding etc usually fully paid by parents).
That said, you’re not expected to splurge on vacations, etc OR if you cannot afford it. But I would always ensure that my parents were financially ok so they were not in debt or whatever in their old age, that they had the care they needed etc. After all, I wouldn’t be a successful professional with high earning power today if my parents hadn’t supported me (financially + emotionally) till I started my career.
Of course, in the western world, people may see it differently so pl don’t take this as being judgemental.
Tell the siblings that you and DH would love to contribute but you are saving the $ for the time that the parents need long-term care, which they have probably not planned for.
I think the number 1 rule of lending money is never to give money that you will miss. If you lend to a family member, you should consider it a gift. It sounds like you would miss the money, even if you don’t strictly speaking need the money.
If an immediate family member genuinely needs money (needs = housing, food, transportation, healthcare), I think you should give it to them even if you will miss the money, because that’s what family’s for.
It also sounds like your DH’s parents don’t actually need money. It’s not even clear that they want money. Rather, your siblings-in-law want to give a very generous gift to their parents. Good for them; obviously they won’t miss the money and it’s very kind of them.
I think that what you and your DH should do is write a lovely card to his parents, saying that you are keeping them in your thoughts (or prayers if appropriate) and can’t wait for the day when you’ll be able to give them grandchildren. Include a small gift (maybe even a modest amount of money), and say you’re sorry you can’t afford to give them a large gift now but you are pinching pennies trying to ensure you’ll be able to give their future grandchildren a good, middle-class life with every advantage possible.
Grandchildren trump everything. If your siblings-in-law give them cash and you eventually give them grandkids, you will be the darling, not the siblings :). And when you take the kids to Disneyland for the first time, invite Granny and Gramps along.
As for dealing with the siblings, your DH just needs to have a frank conversation with his siblings. He should tell them that you and he are not in a financial position to be as generous as they are, but he really appreciates how kind they are to their parents. And then he should make clear that this is not up for further discussion. Easier said than done, I’m sure.
I read your comment and assumed you don’t have kids yet – if you do have kids already, it’s even easier because the grandkids, and their needs, are tangible. Just say tell DH’s parents that you are don’t have money to spare because you are saving for Junior’s education, but you look forward to visiting them with Junior soon.
We have kids and so do some of the siblings. But, siblings are happy to rent and/or not save as much. If they needed the money, I would *of course* be willing to help. We’re not being told to chip-in, we are just being told that each couple is going to give X amount to help pay for the car that in-laws already bought. We can refuse to send a check because we think in-laws should have bought a used car instead of a new one (since DH and I bought our cars used), or we can just send a check since it’s not going to break the bank for us and the purchase was already made (on credit, no less).
Um, refuse! I would think after the recession, people would have gotten a clue about not buying things they couldn’t afford. All good luck to your in-laws, but it’s not your obligation to help them pay for something they they got despite less-expensive options being widely available. If this was – I don’t know – co-payment on a chemo treatment or something, it would be different. But I have a particular bad attitude about new cars particularly – so many people think they “need” them and in reality, nobody does. Stick to your guns SuzyQ!
I really don’t think you should chip in. Your in-laws aren’t in need. Do you even know if your in-laws want you to give them money? I really doubt that they’re aware of the situation; it sounds like the pressure is coming from the siblings. If you explain that you’d be taking money out of the kids’ education fund in order to pay for their car, they’d probably be horrified that you’d even consider it.
I’ve never met a grandparent who didn’t’ put their grandkids first. I think that if you just explain that you don’t have extra money because you are saving for your kids education, your in-laws will understand even if the siblings don’t.
I also am a little bit troubled that you say “We can refuse to send a check because we think in-laws should have bought a used car instead of a new one.” You aren’t refusing to send a check because of a value judgment against your in-laws’ purchase. You’re refusing to send a check because you are saving for your own family’s needs! It sounds like you’ve internalized a lot of the guilt being pushed on you by your husband’s siblings.
Good luck.
I agree – say no. If your siblings railroad you into luxury items and gifts because of their perception of your finances, this will continue when your in-laws need elder care and you may feel pressure to shoulder more of that burden, as well. Stick to your priorities – which imho are admirable and correct – and explain that you do not have any funds not already dedicated at this time.
I’m going to disagree with all but Houda here – I have parents in a similar situation, and DH and I help them out on occasion. My brother and his wife could easily do so, but they’re constantly making excuses as to why they can’t help out, so the burden falls almost completely on us. That’s obviously not fair – but they’re my parents. Where I’m from (here), you take care of your parents.
I agree with you up to a point. My MIL periodically hits the casino in her area and does things like blow her entire Social Security and retirement checks for the month in one night, then calls us crying because she won’t have money for anything for the rest of the month. We bailed her out twice, and then I said no more. There is a difference between helping people who need help and enabling people to continue irresponsible behavior. If someone in our family loses a job, is in a car accident, or has health problems, those are circumstances beyond their control and we help. Bad decisions, irresponsibility, carelessness, etc. in grown adults is not something we feel we need to help people pay for. So if you’re helping your parents out of a bind that was caused by Fate, great and good for you. If you’re bailing them out of bad situations caused by their own actions – get used to taking care of them, because you’ll be doing it permanently soon enough. People don’t change unless they’re motivated to.
I have also seen this ‘let’s all band together and buy Mom a big gift” thing in my family, when my aunt and her partner decided they wanted to buy my Grandma – who rarely watched TV – a 46″ LCD TV. They made the decision and THEN hit everyone else up for the money, which amounted to around $500 per person. My mom said “I already have her birthday gift picked out” and declined. My aunt didn’t like it, but tough noogies. OP – you can always, always say no. You don’t have to justify yourself either. Your husband’s siblings shouldn’t be able to dictate your financial priorities. Remember that “NO” is a complete sentence, and it is a final answer, if you make it one. Good luck.
“There is a difference between helping people who need help and enabling people to continue irresponsible behavior. If someone in our family loses a job, is in a car accident, or has health problems, those are circumstances beyond their control and we help. Bad decisions, irresponsibility, carelessness, etc. in grown adults is not something we feel we need to help people pay for.”
I 100% agree with this.
Define “take care of.” I will make sure my parents have everything they need, but I will not just send them discretionary money or fund unnecessary wants particularly if my own savings targets for certain basics aren’t met, aside from reasonable gifts for birthdays, holidays, and anniversaries. I think other posters (houda included) suggested similar.
But SuzyQ suggested that the thing the parents casually mentioned they wanted but couldn’t afford was a discretionary item. In this case, it’s generous of the siblings to help out, but doesn’t fall into the category of some sort of filial imperative where it would be “unfair” for SuzyQ not to contribute.
I agree with Houda too. I don’t really even think it’s a cultural thing. My view is that my parents took care of me and gave me a great upbringing, so it should be my responsibility to take care of them properly when they need it. Luckily they don’t yet, but when they do I will be there for them. But “extras” like fancy vacations don’t necessarily fit into that, unless they truly do need the vacation.
Agreed. I have the view that if someone spends 18+ years of their life feeding you, clothing you, keeping a roof over your head, and otherwise providing for all your needs, then you owe it to them to see that they don’t end up in the poor house in their old age.
That being said, what is it exactly that your in-laws “can’t afford”? If it’s the mortgage, groceries, utilities, or other necessities, then pitch in what you feel comfortable with – afterall, they’re family and that’s what family does. But if it’s a luxury or nonessential, then I wouldn’t give at all or not give as much. You still have your own family to look out for and you can’t be responsible for other’s poor financial decisions (obviously this doesn’t include falling on tough times).
I sympathize because I can see myself being in a similar situation down the road. My father has never made a whole lot of money – and when my mom was diagnosed with and later died from cancer, their savings took a major hit. I know that eventually some part of his financial security will fall on me and I’m completely fine with that – but that doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t expect/hope he’ll make the most responsible financial decisions possible.
I’m sorry but children don’t “owe” their parents anything for raising then to age 18. That is the obligation incurred by the parent when choosing to have a child. I have no issues with kids who want to do for their parents, I do, but it’s out of live and affection, not because I owe them anything for raising me. That is their job as a parent. No debt created.
I think we’d have to know what it is the in-laws casually mentioned that they can’t afford. If it’s healthcare, rent/mortgage, food, car insurance, or other necessities, I’d pony up, no questions asked–that’s what family is for. If it’s a flat screen TV, piano lessons, theatre tickets, etc….umm…..not so much. I’m wondering if there’s nearly as much disagreement as it seems–I’d think most people wouldn’t let their parents go into foreclosure, but most people also would feel odd sending their parents on a cruise “just because” especially if they avoid fancy trips like that themselves to save money.
Unless what your parents-in-law cannot afford is food, clean water, shelter or healthcare, you’re heading down a slippery slope to just “sent a couple Ks.” If you’re in a position to make a gift to them of a vacation because they need a getaway (just retired, finished a treatment or some other occasion that deserves marking), then maybe contribute, but do not feel you need to contribute equally or more than others to a luxury. I’ve been in a similar situation with my in-laws and loaning / giving money to family is tough. You give once, the expectation is you will give again.
I would not feel that you “basically need to send the equivalent or more.” I actually also disagree with a lot of people here that you need to offer a reason for not contributing. Of course, I do not understand your family dynamic of the full story, but I just wouldn’t send them money and that is that.
Here’s another thought — is the guilt coming from the parents or the siblings?
Maybe the parents don’t realize the problems their complaining causes.
Disagree with the general vibe of the majority.
That is, being able to give luxury gifts to my parents is one of the very top reasons I picked my job. No they don’t need it for food and doctors but I want the people I love best to have nice things, lovely things, and be made as happy by money as money can make them and especially as lack of worry over money can make them. They’ve done a whole lot more for me and have made huge life choices based entirely on what would be best for me. But it’s not really that I ‘owe’ them it’s that I want to do this.
I have a strong affirmative desire to give them generous gifts – if your husband does not have this desire than I think you don’t really have a problem. It’s clear that his siblings do have this desire (and I’m getting a faint vibe that you’ve tried/would like to talk them out of it? I would say that’s not appropriate) and that’s fine. It’s true that proof that his siblings have this desire while he doesn’t highlights a somewhat unflattering view of your husband to the entire family – but who knows? maybe they are closer to the parents for a reason or have a different personality – it is okay and I am sure the parents will still love your husband just as much.
Some of the other commentators IMO exaggerate – no one I know who can potentially buy a house in a great school district is going to suddenly not buy such a house because they’ve spent 5k elsewhere – at the worst it is a slight delay.
You don’t want to do this and that is okay. But you have to be okay with that and not try to control what other people think about it. And I would double check that your husband doesn’t want to do this. And I would try to aknowledge that it is totally okay for his siblings to do this and does not make them irresponsible or making bad decisions.
I think you sound like a wonderful person. I too enjoy giving nice gifts to people I love.
However, would it make matters any different if all these family members are supporting luxuries now, but then come up short when there are true needs down the road (their own or their parents’)? I don’t know whether this is the case or not, but if that’s what we’re talking about, I’m not sure I agree with saying this isn’t irresponsible.
It would make a difference but it doesn’t sound like that is remotely what is happening.
Buying a Porche after which you have 5k left in your savings is irresponsible if there is any chance you have to support someone else.
Spending 10k every year that you could have saved on enjoying life and being a happier less stressed person – simply different priorities.
From the OP’s comments I think we’re talking 1k range here. Which is not going to make or break anyone’s long term rent situation – anyone who is not either already in poverty or close to the line – which it doesn’t sound like the siblings are.
Not to mention that the unexpected happens to everyone.
Human being are irrational all the time. I would bet a thousand dollars that if given complete access to all information about each and every commentor on this site I could come up with money that I think you’ve spent ‘irresponsibly’ and make a good case that you were wasteful. But I think the commentators make reasonable choices and not irresponsible people. I think we should offer the same courtesy to people outside this site. There are irresponsible people out there but nothing that the OP has said leads me to think we can conclude these people are irresponsible – they might have made a couple of irresponsible moves – but most people do.
The parents bought a new car they said they couldn’t afford on credit. Of course I’m not saying I know everyone’s financial pictures 100%, but that in itself was not responsible. If someone was on here asking “I am 53 and need a car. I have $6k in accessible savings. Should I buy a new vehicle?” I think the vast majority of financially savvy/responsible people would suggest a used car.
I am definitely not saying the siblings are financially irresponsible to help, but there’s certainly a whiff of financial irresponsibility in the OP & her followup. The siblings are probably fine and can probably afford it (though OP noted that her family hasn’t met certain of their own near term goals and that the sibs earn less), and I’m all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, but I’ll just point out that someone can have the purest intentions in the world, but that doesn’t make related choices “responsible.”
EE, It’s not that I disagree with anything you say.
I would not buy a new car myself and neither would I recommend it but such a thing is just not enough that I would call someone an irresponsible person for it (and I realize you haven’t done that) – sometimes for somepeople its really important get a new car and there are some very sane reasons for it.
And I object to the vibe I get on here sometimes that just because you’ve set certain “near term goals” and these goals are of themselves good and admirable that they are commandmants from on high or outside your control or particularly reasonable. 99% of the American public does not have 6 months of expenses in savings. It’s good to have 6 months of expenses in saving (or a house, etc.), and choosing to prioritize that over helping someone or over a million other things is a perfectly valid thing to do that I approve of! I’m all for prioritization. I’m all for setting goals and meeting them. But lets aknowledge that most people survive without it and that it is not the same kind of necessity as food and rent and that you’ve more or less made up this necessity for yourself. For example that you need to purchase a house while/before your forties – not a commandmant! a choice!
And you know, I think (who know if I’m right?) that today I’m better with money than my parents. But in the past they’ve made do with a lot less that I don’t think I would have been at at all. So if one person is good with very little and soso with a moderate amount while somenoe else is good with a moderate and high amount but is terrible at low amounts which one of them is “irresponsible”? People have different strenghts and dealing with money is so often all about emotion and how you yourself grew up that I would hesitate to blame people for making choices that aren’t optimal.
On the other hand, someone who gambles compulsively and has lost a large amount while not being rich – irresponsible and I would never give money to this person. I might house them if I loved them but no money.
Arachna, you sound a lot like me! Yes parents do make life changing decisions for our best interests. It is something we can never repay them for.
However, always remember that one always pays it forward. You will make those sacrifices for your own kids and will consider a privilege- not a favor for the kid.
From the question asked, it does seem a little bit more than treating your parents well. 2k every now and then is a lot of money. The OP does have kids to support afterall. Unless OP is a millinaire for whom 2k is chump change, it is a signifiant amount of money.
Take it from someone who bought a new car for her own dad – not because he needed it, but because I just wanted to buy a car for my dad- it does get to be a lot in the end and it is going way above and beyond. I acknowledge that each urge that I feel to indulge my parents is nothing but misplaced guilt of being able to make more money than they ever have – thanks to their efforts too.
From now on, I will save my money for when they truly need it.
I actually think we’re on the same page, especially in light of some of your thoughts below.
I just felt a little emblematic of the “general vibe,” with which you were disagreeing, but I don’t think there’s really much disagreement! My emphatic “NO!” above was not a “NO, you shouldn’t be generous with your inlaws!” as I love being generous with mine, but more a “NO, if you don’t want to that is fine and you shouldn’t feel an obligation,” which seems to be what you concluded as well. :)
E.E., agreed! I think we’re very much on the same page.
And clearly I read Corprotte and enjoy the general general vibe a lot.
I might also be feeling a bit defensive, because when you have a spouse generosity gets more complicated. My husband and I have completely joint finances and I struggle between wanting to help my parents and not wanting to basically transfer money from my husband and his family to my family. Hasn’t been a problem so far due to his excellent character and loans which curb my impulses but I worry a little about the future.
Thank you for all of your perspectives. I don’t know if I would call them irresponsible – they’ve definitely made some bad financial moves in the past but they generally live frugally and they’re still working when they are past typicaly retirement age. Really, I’m just venting here because nothing is going to change – I’m not going to not send the money and I don’t get to say anything to the siblings about what seems excessive and unnecessary. I just don’t feel like I have that much control over my financial situation and it irks me. It also irks me that I forego my latte, cut my husband’s hair, and buy all of my kids’ clothes second-hand, only to shell out 4k here and 8k there to help pay for a new car, a new computer, a luxury cruise, etc.
But, SuzyQ, why should you pay for someone ELSE’S luxury cruise when you yourself are giving up little luxuries? I doubt you and your immediate family are going on any luxury cruises, so why should someone else be the beneficiary of your being careful with money? (Similar example — you said you bought your cars used — while at the same time you’ll end up contributing to a new car for your in-laws.)
I hear you if you are just venting — it drives me INSANE that my husband and I buy 8-10 $25 gift cards for his relatives every Christmas — rather than getting rid of the adult gift exchange entirely, or switching to a Secret Santa thing. And that’s only $200! So were I in your situation, I’d say absolutely not. And I’d try my hardest not to use any coarse language in saying, “Absolutely not!” Why not just say (as some other wiser commenters have suggested), “That’s so generous of you. That’s great! For us, we don’t have the funds to do that right now.” Period.
Wow, 4K here and 8K there? That’s insane! That really will eat into the house fund over time.
I think you should really do something about this – lots of good suggestions in previous comments. That’s a substantial amount of money.
FOOEY on my disjointed post. Doing a million things at the same time. Feels like my brain is flying in different directions.
It sounds like DH’s siblings don’t have much money sense. Wait until the parents really need the money, not just when they casually mention something they want. At some point they will likely need financial help for actual living/medical expenses. If you’re rich and have lots of discretionary cash, it’s great to send the parents on a fancy vacation, but not when you’re saving for a house.
Anybody know how to get 30% off + free shipping? $7 is a lot to pay to ship a $35 dress, IMHO.
Duh, can buy $10 eau de toilette to get free shipping. Net-net, it’s free shipping ;-) http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=6197590020000&cid=18391
I really love this comment – I do this wayy too often.
Hi Ladies, I was wondering if there any patent attorneys out there are willing to give me some advice.
I’m currently a 2L and I’m having trouble finding a patent law internship for the summer. I only have an undergrad degree in chemistry. I didn’t have any luck at on-campus interviews. The firms recruiting for patent law explicitly told me in the interview that they were looking for engineers, not life sciences people. I’ve had some run-ins with patent attorneys who get excited when they hear I am interested in patent law but then they find out I just have an undergrad degree in the life sciences and they laugh at me. Is it hopeless to try to get into patent law without a higher degree in the life sciences? Is there anything I could do over the summer to improve my chances of getting a job after 3L year? Are there alternative careers that I should look into?
I’m studying for the patent bar over my winter break and I’m hoping to have enough time during the semester to keep studying and possibly take the exam over spring break. I don’t know how relevant this is but I’m middle of my class at a Midwestern T1 law school.
I don’t want to sound like I think I’m entitled to a job in patent law! I know that it is definitely going to be more difficult to find a job with my background. I was just hoping for some suggestions.
Keeping in mind I graduated from law school in 2006, so times are different – but, I have an undergrad biology degree and graduated from a T1 east coast law school, and worked for 2 years at a great midwestern firm doing patent litigation and prosecution.
I would highly, HIGHLY recommend taking (and passing) the patent bar while you are in law school. Many potential employers commented on how glad they were that I had passed it – it shows dedication to the practice area and actually teaches you a lot of practical information about patent prosecution.
You should not need a higher degree to practice in the Midwest. Now, I moved from the Midwest to the East Coast for personal reasons, and was told by Biglaw that I needed a PhD. So it may be the type of firm you are looking at . . . try a little smaller firm.
Also, try firms that aren’t explicitly recruiting for patent law, but have a patent law group – it may get your foot in the door. In my experience there are not enough patent law associates to go around so they may place you in that group even if the aren’t explicitly hiring for that group. Hope that helps!
I am an 4th year IP attorney with an undergraduate degree in biochemistry. IMO, your best best is to go into litigation. Like you, I had some difficulty during OCI since I did not have a PhD and was not an engineer. I took my patent classes early (I took patent prosecution in the summer of my 1L year) and was able to land a job using a patent application as a writing sample. I did not go on to work in patent prosecution, however. Now I work on both patent and trademark litigation.
Are you wedded to doing patent prosecution. It’s definitely not for everyone, but does net a good paycheck for a pretty predictable schedule.
Do you have any pharmaceutical knowledge? A Hatch-Waxman litigation practice might suit you well. You might want to seek out firms that have such a practice. A lot of them are in NY and California, though.
You could also try to get into IP licensing/tech transfer.
I am in a Minneapolis, so I know a little bit about the market in the Midwest. I would be happy to talk with you further if you are interested.
I don’t think it’s impossible with just an undergrad degree, but it is going to be very challenging to find something. Especially with the current economy, there are a lot of people with PhDs that you are competing with for these jobs. A few suggestions:
(1) you say you are in the midwest. There are not many big biotech markets in the midwest, so if you have not already, you need to be looking in more biotech-oriented places, e.g., Boston and the Bay Area.
(2) I doubt that whether or not you get hired is going to turn on whether you have passed the patent bar. At the most, it shows that you are serious about pursuing patent law. Your law school grades, journal participation, etc., are far more important.
(3) Don’t limit yourself to law firms for the summer. If you haven’t done so already, see if there are unpaid internships at chem/bio companies. Also, does your law school or undergrad institution have a tech transfer office? If so, get in touch with them re: internship opportunities. Even if there is no possibility of getting a full time job right out of law school at these places, at least you will make some good contacts.
Good luck!
My brother is a patent attorney in CA (BS in engineering, no technical grad degree). At his boutique firm, all of the attorneys working on biotech have PhD’s. My background is in physical science, but my suspicion is that the technologies that biotech patent attorneys deal with are sufficiently sophisticated that an advanced degree (probably PhD) is required. I also know that there are a glut of PhD’s in CA who are going the patent agent to getting their firm to pay for law school route, so I don’t think moving to the coasts will help your job prospects.
I’m getting a bit further from where I can speak with authority, but I suspect you may have better luck in-house with a biotech firm. You probably won’t start high up on the pay scale, but it may be a good place for you to gain expertise (many firm attorneys don’t necessarily have that experience.
Also, I have another friend who does pharmaceutical-related litigation and loves it. It’s not IP work, but depending on the reason for your interest in biotech law, this may be another avenue (as another poster has also mentioned).
Coming from the other direction, I’m a Ph.D. with a background in chemistry/biology. During my post-doc at a well-known sci/tech school ~10 years ago, IP firms came to recruit on campus. Standard practice was to hire technical experts and to worry about the legal part later. The firm I spoke with assumed that new hires would pass the patent bar pretty quickly after being hired, and would pay for bar prep classes as well as the actual law school tuition. So my assumption is that generally the technical knowledge is the main driver.
I do second the idea of looking at pharmaceutical or biotech companies, though. In current position at a large biotech, I’ve worked with a number of people in the legal group with a broad variety of backgrounds. Another option would be to look at large universities with strong science and/or technical programs – a lot of places bring in a significant amount of cash by the patent-and-license process, and thus have pretty busy legal groups.
The university suggestion is good. Though be forewarned that again, the patent offices are large research universities are likely to be staffed by people who came from firms with patent experience and/or have PhD’s. As a university lawyer, you may work more on research policy (which you may also find interesting). I’m sure this varies a lot by the size of the university, though.
Anonymous 2:01 here.
rg, I am in the midwest and suggested the OP look elsewhere just because there are a limited number of chem/bio positions here. At least in more biotech-oriented places, there are a larger number of positions that are potentially available to the OP. You are totally right that the market is flooded with PhDs, but in my experience that is true in the midwest (at least in my city) as well.
It is extremely rare to get hired in house right out of law school. Most in house positions go to people with at least 3 years experience at a firm. However, the OP may be able to get a summer internship and at least make some good contacts that could lead to a firm job.
The pharmaceutical litigation suggestion is a good one. I graduated with someone who was initially interested in patent law but took that route instead.
As an in-house biotech patent attorney doing prosecution, there are very few opportunities for someone without prior experience to go straight in-house to do patent prosecution work. My best advice to the OP is to consider litigation or transactional work. In general, for life sciences patent prosecution, most of your competition will have Ph.Ds. Good luck!
Not a patent lawyer here, but I know several. I second the rec to take the patent bar exam as early as practical. Try smaller firms or government bodies. There is a need for patent lawyers with a background in fields other than engineering, but it’s a niche market and it’ll be harder to break into. Look at the attorney bios of patent lawyers in your city and find a few with life sciences backgrounds. See what their resumes are like. If you’re brave, cold email them, introduce themselves, and ask them if they have time to have coffee with a future patent lawyer. Ask career services to help you identify alumni working as patent lawyers, email them (no bravery required), and ask them for tips. Be persistent.
I’m not familar with patent law specifically, but one of the best things that you could do is to try to talk to as many patent lawyers as possible. Arrange informational interviews- offer to buy the person lunch or coffee to pick their brain (or communicate by email if distance is an issue), and ask them what you can do to improve your chances, and be sure to ask if they know anyone else that you can talk to. People usually really enjoy giving advice like that, so don’t be shy. Consider any patent lawyers that you meet or have any connections to, and ask your career services and a few professors if they know of any alums who went into patent law and may be willing to talk to you.
Thanks for all the advice ladies!
It’s very motivating to hear that taking the patent bar early can help. I’ve been studying hard, but always with the thought that maybe there was no point.
I’ve been hesitant to contact smaller firms for summer work because I don’t know how I’d support myself financially. I might be able to find some kind of funding if I talk to career services. It’s definitely helpful to know that even though a firm might not be recruiting for IP directly, they may still need help. I will definitely take a look at pharmaceutical and biotech companies.
I tried to get a licensing position with the university. I was so excited about the position and I thought the interview went well, but there was only one spot available and I received a rejection letter.
I was thinking of getting into prosecution, rather than litigation because I figured litigation recruits wouldn’t need so much technical knowledge and recruiters would be looking more at grades and being in the top 10%.
Again thank you for all of the responses!
My husband has a very similar story, and managed to land a position in the Midwest doing primarily patent/trademark litigation, though he also gets called into to patent prosecution when they need an associate. He has a life sciences undergrad and a law degree, with no PhD. He got his foot in the door by taking a lot of law school classes taught by local IP practitioners – IP moot court, advanced patent prosecution seminars, etc. That was a few years ago, and my sense is that the Midwest market (especially the bigger firms) has tightened up a lot since 2008. I wouldn’t limit myself to big firms, especially if the concern is repaying student loans – put them on a longer repayment plan, get your foot in the door at a job, and move to a bigger and better job after the market recovers some.
Also, someone commented that there isn’t a big market for bio-tech in the Midwest – as a Midwestern corporate lawyer with several large bio-tech clients, I’m not sure that’s true. Also, IP firms tend to be located in markets that have rocket dockets, and there are several in the Midwest. There are jobs here, but you’ll have to be flexible and creative to get one.
Hmmm, it appears I did not express myself clearly. Of course firms in the midwest have biotech clients. I work at a midwest firm that has many such clients. But I don’t think there’s any denying that, for example, the Bay Area has a lot more biotech stuff going on than say, Kansas City. All I meant to say was that the OP may want to broaden her geographical horizons if she has not done so already.
I have a B.S. in mechanical engineering and while my original plan was to be a patent attorney I liked my engineering co-ops enough that I got an engineering job rathr than going to law school after undergrad and have worked as an engineer (process & quality roles) for five years.
But I’m still curious to hear Corporettes’ thoughts about patent law since a lot of the bloom has left day-to-day practice of engineering for me at this point (although I still really like and am interested in technical subjects): is the current job market for patent attorneys as poor as the job market for attorneys in general or is the demand still decent given the technical background requirements? Any other suggestions for someone tossing around the idea about going to law school for patent law in particular? (Also for what it’s worth, I’m currently in the Midwest and would like to stay in this region.)
Quick threadjack:
Had an interview about a month ago for a job that I feel I have a pretty good chance of getting. When I asked about when they anticipated having a decision, they responded that they wanted to make a fairly quick decision and taking into account the upcoming holidays, it would probably be the end of the month. It’s now almost a week into the new year and I still haven’t heard anything.
I’m getting a little antsy (and really, really just want a job already). Is it ok for me to email the interviewer to find out what the timeline for a decision is or should I just continue waiting?
I think it’s OK to ask nicely. Having been in this position before myself (over exactly the same time period, but in a different year), things get all wacky over the December holiday period and it takes some time for people to get themselves organized again in January. They may just be focussed on other things at the moment but if you contact them it will remind them that they need to get on it, and show that you are still keen on working for them. Good luck!
I would not ask for their timeline per se but I think it’s fine to reiterate your interest in the position and add any new info you think would supplement your application. Even if you think you’re a shoo-in, continue to pursue other leads since one way to really get their attention is if you can tell them you have another offer from another employer but would rather work for them.
Weird, I was in nearly the EXACT same position about two weeks ago. I’d interviewed around Thanksgiving and was told I’d find out about second round interviews “after Thanksgiving” and that they wanted to have the second round interviews done and an offer out before Christmas. I waited a month and then sent a polite “just wanted to touch base and check on the status of the position” email. I didn’t hear back for yet another week. I only heard, immediately before Christmas, that they’d decided to give me a second interview.
So yes, email if it’s been a month but keep it vague, I think, and add that you enjoyed meeting with them, etc. And then take a deep breath and be patient. It was impossible for me (second interview in coming days) and I’m still waiting! People get busy around the holidays and if they’re in no hurry to fill the position, this likely gets pushed to the back burner.
Good luck!
In case anyone’s looking for a wrap-y dress but put off by the reviews for the BR one, I thought I’d mention that HauteLook has a few fairly similar dresses up today for $40 (US), under the Pure & Simple sale – in black, a cherry-ish red (which they are, bizarrely, calling plum), and grey. The pictures are sort of up and down though, so hard to tell how nice the dress actually is. (Tempted to get it in black, to replace my fading previous go-to dress, or in the red, just to shock all the black/grey/purple/teal in my closet, but trying to be budget-conscious like everyone else this week!)
(P.S. Confession: I miss Ellen. I wonder how the BAD BREATH BALDING partner is doing?)
So funny! I have been wondering where Ellen is too!!
Same here. I was just about to post that Ellen seems to be MIA in the last several days.
Maybe her Alan finally bought her a huge DIAMOND from Tiffany’s?
No, unfortunately I believe he was far too CHEEP.
You’re not alone. :)
Threadjack:
This discussion about giving parents money has made me think about something, wondering what others think about it as well.
I have a kid and have a good relationship with my parents. I view the parent-child relationship as: it is my responsibility, as a parent who chose to bring a person into the world, to ensure that my child has (at minimum) food, clothing, shelter, an education and some form of moral guidance and discipline. If I have to “sacrifice” to provide those things for my child, that is my problem, not my child’s problem, and he does not “owe” me anything for doing that. I also feel that if I provide him with an upbringing and then in later years, he chooses to cut off communication from me or not support me financially if I need it, that is regrettable but it is his choice, and he does not “owe” me for raising him. It was not his choice to be born, it was my choice, and as I said, he does not owe me anything for the care I was legally and morally obligated to provide to him when he was growing up.
I think I feel this way about my son because this was how I was raised by my parents. They feel I owe them nothing and they expect nothing from me, although I am happy to provide them with gifts and help them financially if they need it, because I love them and want to help them.
Is this how other families operate? Are there really parents out there who feel they are “owed” something because they raised their children, something they were obligated to do once the children were born? Frankly, I would rather know that my son is doing something for me because he wants to, and has his own motivation, than to know he’s doing something because he feels he “owes” me or he is somehow duty-bound to do it.
I don’t think my parents feel I “owe” them anything. They’ve certainly never said it, I don’t feel it, and they’ve never put any sort of guilt trip on me. But they raised me to be a good, moral person, and because of that I came to the decision myself that I want to take care of my parents when they get old. (Not to cast aspersions on people who’ve also been raised to be moral people but have come to other decisions – that is just the conclusion I personally came to.)
Having said that, I do know of parents who believe their children do owe them, and who have guilted their children into doing all sorts of things. Their children usually do comply (out of guilt). I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing to do things out of a sense of duty. It is when you bind up duty with concepts like guilt and debt that it can become negative.
I don’t have children myself yet, but when I do I hope I never make them feel that way. However, way down, deep inside, I do feel that it would be awfully nice to have children who will take care of me when I get old. Hopefully if I am a good parent they will want to do it and will make that decision themselves.
My DH’s parents are kind of guilt-trippers, while my parents are not whatsoever, so I can identify with both aspects of this issue. First, I will say, though, that DH’s parents are not as financially well-off as my parents, so that could have a lot to do with it. Last year, while I was still in school and DH was supporting us, we hardly had any discretionary money in the budget. His dad’s birthday came up and we gave him a nice card, went out to dinner and celebrated with the family, but then got a call a week later from his mother saying that his dad’s feelings were terribly hurt that we did not get him a gift… So we bought him a gift and haven’t missed getting gifts for anyone’s birthday since then. I could be in the minority, but I thought that was very strange. Birthdays just aren’t that big of a deal in my family.
Since that has happened, DH’s family has ventured into a business that is shaky at best. I have gotten calls for free legal advice, including drawing up documents on the spot that took a considerable amount of my time. This precedent makes me very concerned that sometime in the future, we will have to deal with a financial crisis and will be expected to assist them in getting out of it. DH isn’t very close to his family, so I am not too close to them either. I plan to “just say no”. Harsh, maybe, but I refuse to start something like that, any more than we already have.
As my southern aunt would say, “I didn’t take you to raise.”
I obviously can’t speak for anyone else, but I feel like I “owe” my parents, because my lifestyle growing up was very, VERY comfortable. They never had to sacrifice, but they went out of their way to make sure my sister and I had everything we needed and most things we wanted. As a result, if they ever did need something from me, whether it be financial support or long-term care to the point that they moved in with me, I would to some extent feel that I “owed” them. They would never describe our relationship this way, and probably wouldn’t like to think that I felt like I owed them, but I guess I want to think of it more as returning the favor…
This is actually a bone of contention in my family. My mother worked very, very hard and sacrificed a lot when I was a child, but sort of fell apart when I grew up and she and I no longer are on speaking terms. She demands attention and a relationship based on, in her words, the fact that I “owe her for [her] sacrifice” when I was a child. I appreciate all that she did when I was a child, but my therapist and I believe that we cannot have a relationship at this time – her past behavior does not buy her carte blanche into the future.
I think there’s a difference between a parent feeling the child owes them something (as Ann put it, the parent made the choice to become a parent and the child had no input) and the child feeling that s/he owes the parent for the hard-work and sacrifices the parent made to give the child a good life.
Though above I believe I used terms like “owe” and “duty”, I think I kind of look on it as my parents doing me a “favor”. By my definition, a favor is something one does out of kindess/care/concern for another from which they don’t expect a return (or at least shouldn’t expect one). While I know I’m not expected to repay a favor – I’m certainly going to want to try. I know my father well enough to know that he cannot/will not expect me to help him out – but he’s done so much for me that I really WANT to be able to.
I feel somewhat similar to this. My parents repeatedly told me that they wanted to help me with school, various payments, etc., if they could, because their parents did so for them. So I think that my parents will hope that I raise my kids the same way, which I do not have a problem with and hope to be in a position to do, but I also do feel like I owe them. Not necessarily financially, for reasons maybe similar to JessC’s, but making a point to talk to them frequently and keep them involved in my life and do things for them–gifts, family events, etc.–within reason.
Yeah, I do feel that I owe my parents. And I think that my parents do expect something from us when they’re older, although they’re working very hard to be financially independent in their old age and hopefully their health will allow them to be independent as well. I think this concept of “owing” your parents is heavily influenced by individual religious/moral beliefs, as well as the environment one was raised in.
FWIW, my dad always said to me that his obligation to his parents was to take care of his own children the way his parents took care of him, specifically with regard to paying for school. he even used the words “I will pay them back by doing the same for you.” I hope to do at least as much if not more for my future children as my folks did for me.
As for my mom, she had a really hard time managing her day-to-day life and I did feel obligated to care for her, financially and otherwise. But not because I “owed” her, just because we were family and personally I take pride in taking care of my family.
I don’t feel like I “owe” it to my parents to take care of them when they get older simply because they raised me.
However, my fiance and I have discussed if/when/how our family members ever need financial assistance for something that would be considered a “need” (food, shelter, etc.), that we would do our best to help them as much as we could. But neither of us have the present intent to take care of our parents simply because they raised us – our hope is that they can take care of themselves.
Even though I’m firmly on the “give generous gifts” side of the fence I’m actually also very firmly of the you don’t “owe” anything to your parents that you don’t feel like.
This is potentially upsetting to others but this is purley IMO.
I feel like parents who don’t have children that want relationships with them or want to help them or want to be nice to them messed up. I think 99.9% of the time parents get the adult child relationship they deserve. If someone feels no particular desire to make their parents very happy I assume there’s a pretty good reason for it.
My parents prioritized my well being but they also did a fabulous job emotionally. I’ve always known that they love me insanely and more than anything else in the world (without ever making me the center of their lives). So I’ve had an amazing basis and security upon which to build my life. I love them very much as well and therefore feel pain when I think of the sacrificed they’ve made and so want very much to aliviete the pain of the past by happiness in the present. It brings me a great deal of pleasure to make them happy.
There’s a cultural expectation in many Asian countries that kids owe their parents until death. This is to the point of children being unhappily married and living behind a “happy” and “we’re normal” facade that is attributed to a highly image and family reputation/ honor-focused culture.
I think it also has to do with parents seeing their children as extensions of themselves rather than individuals with different dreams and goals. I was extremely lucky to have parents with a more American mindset though I have dear friends who were not so lucky and are expected to sacrifice their own happiness for family tradition/ honor when it comes to careers, who they marry, and how they live their lives.
I do think you have a duty to your parents and your family members generally, because they gave you life and are a part of your DNA. That doesn’t mean you have to be friends with them or give them presents. But at a very basic level, I do believe you have a responsibility to do whatever’s within your ability to make sure that they are clothed, fed, and adequately cared for. Family relationships are the essential building block of society and a key part of being human.
I don’t think that children owe their parents anything. I think of it as more of a pay it forward relationship – my great-grandparents emigrated to this country so that their children could have a better life; my grandparents worked hard so that my parents could have an even better life; my parents made it to the middle class and worked every day so that I could have a graduate degree and a lot of nice things that make my life much easier than theirs were. The expectation is that I will give all these things, and more, to my children as well. For people who don’t have children, I think the expectation is that you will use all the gifts you’ve received from your forebears and use them to make the world better.
I think we feel the same way, but my MIL thinks my husband owes her all sorts of things because she’s his mother and she raised him! And because she thinks he “owes” her, she doesn’t appreciate anything he did fir her, so now he doesn’t bother….. What’s the point if it isn’t even appreciated.
I’m pretty sure this is how my parents operate, that they don’t actually feel as though my sister and I “owe” them anything. And they have given my sister and I a very comfortable life up until now – I can credit my v. small (in comparison) law school debt to them and their “generosity.”
I put generosity in quotes because it didn’t feel like generosity. My Dad is very controlling when it comes to money, and he doesn’t really know how to express himself nicely when it comes to talking about money – a pretty volatile combination when confronted with my independent-indestructible teenage self. So I was reminded, many times, how the accounts that have my name on them aren’t really mine – they were my parents’ savings accounts (they still aren’t mine, for the record). When I was 16, they started an IRA for me – by draining my account of the money I made while working during the summer. I found out when I got an “insufficient funds” notice in the mail and wondered why. My Dad’s rationale was that because I worked for him, my money was his money anyway. I was constantly reminded at how hard my parents worked to be able to pay for things for me, and how they could find tons of different uses for my college fund that didn’t include paying for school. When I tried to take out loans so as not to burden them, my ingratitude at all they had done for me and invested in me was thrown back in my face – and then they made another ‘deposit’ into my IRA for me. As a teenager, I was about ready to call Child Services and emancipate myself out of there (no, I was not aware of the other, far more legitimate reasons for emancipating oneself :-) ). Now that I’m older I see they were trying to get me as far ahead financially as possible, which I appreciate. But the resentment hasn’t really faded much – my Dad still refers to my sister and I as ‘investments’. You have to question just how generous and charitable someone is when they constantly remind you of how general and charitable they are. So no, I don’t feel I “owe” my parents anything.
Another Sarah, I just had to say that I really thought you were my sister writing that post at first! (She doesn’t have a law degree though). I am still very resentful of things that happened with my money as a teenager. I also worked for my parents, also had a dad who repeatedly made it obvious that he felt that the money I earned was effectively his, decided what to do with my IRA (which even occurred while I was in college when he unbeknownst to me decided to log into my account and use my money market funds to make a substantial investment on my behalf, which is now down to probably 5% of what it was worth originally) …. and…. when I got a full scholarship to college, drained a large portion of the funds from my account (and also from my sister’s account) to pay for the college tuition of my much younger brother (who never worked for the business). Anyway, I just had to post because I have never heard of anyone with even a remotely similar experience to mine. So there ARE others out there! =)
You never have to give or lend money to your parents! Your moral and legal obligation is to your children. You do, however, have many other moral obligations toward your parents and husband’s parents, some of which involve spending quite a bit of money, but not giving it outgright…know what I mean?
Today’s dress – I think it looks bad from behind, even on the model! And what’s with the sleeves – the way they are set in with the little poufy gathers appearing from behind – I do not like that at all.
I think it makes sense that in many countries of the world a child would be responsible always for his/her parent(s). That is how it was in this country before social security and Medicare. Now the USA economy has changed – the government is supporting people over 65, and the raising of a child (including education) has become extremely expensive.
This discussion is fascinating. I am a daughter and a mother. The best gift my parents ever gave me, I think, was to purchase long-term care insurance so they wouldn’t be a financial burden to my siblings and me if one or both became ill, and life insurance for one another so the surviving parent wouldn’t be destitute. That is what I will do for my children (and the disability insurance and life insurance are already in place). It’s one thing to need help from your kids because of a lost job, subsequent medical bills, etc. (and of course I’d never let my very loving parents be homeless or hungry), but I would be really mad if I had to bail out my parents because of trips to Vegas or other poor choices (and I am not suggesting that is the situation of any prior poster’s parents). I do have successful lawyer friends who have become the gravy train for irresponsible parents, and I don’t know how they can stand it.
On a much lighter topic, that dress has a giant hole, unlike any other wrap dress I’ve owned or tried on. I love Banana and I love wrap dresses, but that is a big miss.
Another Sarah – I do estate planning and related fields and I have never heard a story like yours. It sound like you worked for your father’s business, then you placed your salary in a joint account with a parent as the other owner, then your parent somehow started an IRA in your name without your signature and transferred your earnings into that account. When I worked as a teenager (not employed by a parent) I had my own bank account in my own name and placed all of my earnings in that account. No-one else could have touched my money without a court order.
I think I have just learned someting very interesting from your post (which I just amplified by doing a little research) which is that a child of any age can own an IRA if he or she has earned income in the contribution year. I think that your parents did something very clever and sophisticated.
I will pass along this tip to others.
I had a similar experience to Another Sarah. I think what happened is that because I was a minor I needed to have a parent on the account as well (I thought this was required by the financial institution?), and that parent also had full access and rights to do whatever they wanted with it until I turned 18.
Yup, when I started I had the checking and savings accounts my parents opened for me when I was an infant. After the IRA fiascos, I closed the checking account and opened my own in my own name – I did it when I was 16. I don’t remember having problems opening it because I was under 18, but I might have told the banker my sob story and he might have felt sorry for me/thought I was a fraud victim and opened it anyway. I also have another account at another bank that they (obviously) have no control over whatsoever, which is what I normally use, like where my paychecks go and such.
Like I said, now I appreciate how I have a nest egg and everyone else is just focused on making sure they pay enough on their student loans so as to not default. And what my parents did was v. clever. But I would advise others to use the opening-of-the-IRA as a way to teach someone about investments and how they work, as opposed to the unilateral method my parents used. :-)
It’s probably too late for most people to read this but I was thinking about this thread yesterday and something interesting occured to me. When you boil it down it actually sounds like most people think the basic you have to do for your parents and your children are the same. But in America people also think you have to do lots and lots of extras for your children while thinking this isn’t true for parents but is that necessarily any more reasonable/sensible/moral than the other way around?
I think everyone agrees that if at all possible the moral thing is to provide your child with food, shelter, clothes and medical care. And people also agree that they should do the same for their parents.
But most people also think that if its possible parents should provide children with a good education and some other extras. There is disagreement on the extras but I think most people would feel sorry for a child who’s well off parents never bought him things he wanted or let him take expensive extracurriculars. And some parents/social groups go way overboard IMO and spend fortunes on unecessary things for a child while regarding anything but the basics for parents as ridiculous generosity.
I can see arguments both ways. For example, parents have done a lot more for you than your children have. On the other hand parents are also responsible for the way you regard them today – and if they behaved in such a way that you don’t want to be nice to them it is a result of their own actions in a way that a moral person really can’t regard a child responsible for her actions.
Anyway the basic idea that one owes extras to children but not to parents strikes me very American and child centric/worshipping.
Of course ideally the parents will be plenty able to take care of themselves.
I have to disagree about the attention/spending on children is being child cnetric or child worshipping. ALso do not think it is exclusive to USA.
I think that the need to nurture the next generation is programmed into our DNA. We are programmed to be separate from our parents and take care of our kids. Look at other animal species beyond humans. How many do you think stick around and nurture their parents? I think we can say None. Look at birds and anuimals, they starve for their young ones, feed them and strengthen them. The birds then leave the nest – as they should. They do not stop and feed their parents in their old age. That is our collective natural instinct.
At the dawn of human evolution, we realized that we had to work together as a group to survive and thrive. This group was not necessarily limited to family – parents, grnadparents and children etc. It was a rag tag bunch. Slowly ofcourse as the society evolved the micro group became a family unit – typically with the idea of ownership of property. This made family even stronger because of joint ownership and desire to pass on the property only to progeny.
This ofcourse led to the joint family system in the ancient parts of the world – an organic evolution through joint ownership of property. The property was owned jointly hence the granparents continued to live with their children and grandchildren. Ofocurse in this scenario the notion arose that the able will take care of the ailing as well as share the previous gneration’s wealth. Children were taken care of AND provided extras (over the adults, contrary to your assertion) like less or no work, time to study etc. There were also plenty of people around to take care of and pay attention to the children. It was not the exclusive repsonsibility of the parents.
In this nuclear family system, especially with no joint or inherted wealth to share the resources and infinitely increased burden, it is but natural that most of the extras should go to children and not parents.
I personally do not find anything wrong with it at all.
Arachna, I will come right out and say that some of the things you said in response to my post yesterday were a bit upsetting to me but I chose to hold my tongue for the sake of learning something here. I will just say that DH and I have already been *very* generous to his parents. We paid off their credit card debt, helped pay for a sibling’s wedding, etc. and my complaint was not about being generous, but about being railroaded by siblings into giving luxuries when we forego luxuries on a daily basis in order to try and save for a house in the ‘burbs. Also, my parents and DH’s parents are not American – they are all immigrants from an Asian society that’s all about respecting their elders. We want a house in a good suburb so that DH and I don’t have to pay a ridiculous amount of money on private school tuition in the city. What about this strikes you as “child centric/worshipping”?
Do you have any children? I am thinking that you do not because really, raising kids (and childcare alone) is hugely expensive and I don’t know what you mean by “extras.” There’s nothing about my lifestyle that suggests that we are indulging our kids by any means. Yes, they will probably have a more comfortable life, but don’t we all want our kids to have a better life than we had growing up?
Whoa – where have I accused anyone in particular or any action in particular or being child worshipping in the least? That American society is very child centric might not be completely unconstroversial but it is hardly my own unique idea and had been widely discussed.
Skippy pea – what I think you’re saying is that you think it is right and proper and also human nature to be child centric – I think that’s a reasonable position to hold though I disagree but I’m confused as to why you are objecting to the very term. Is it just the negative connotation of “child worshipping”? If so I appologize for the word choice. But are you seriously saying that your view that extras should go to the children “over the adults” is not child centric?
Also, I disagree with your analogies between animals and humans – for example some species will eat their young – but no one is saying humans don’t have an instinctive drive to protect and nurture to some extent. But I think it’s also clear that humans have a strong instinctive drive to attach to their caretakers – children love their parents even when the parents are abusive and sometimes overattach because the need for an attachment is so strong. Some parents don’t want to take care of their children and some children teenager onwards don’t want anything to do with their parents but I think we can all agree that both drives are instinctive to humans and IMO which is stronger is debatable.
SuzyQ – I have certainly never called you child centric and if you took my later comments to be referring to your situation they were not meant to. Er, if you do happen to be child centril I don’t think that’s a particularly bad thing either – I just have no way of knowing. I don’t think there is anything wrong with you not wanting to give expensive gifts to your in laws and if you think what I wrote above said that it was not what I meant. This is especially true where you have already been generous and have your own goals you are working hard towards. I do think that you should either a. give with no reservations or b. not give. Giving while resenting it because you feel pressured into it seems like a lose lose lose to me. I strongly encourage you (I know your decisions are probably not based on random internet strangers sorry) to rethink sending the check if neither you nor your husband want to do that, I think you should not participate in this particular gift and no I don’t think that makes you a bad person. I don’t know if your siblings in law are badgering you and your husband and if they are shame on them they should stop but I do think if they are not badgering you they are not doing anything wrong and my first comment was just a response to the feeling I got that commentators felt the siblings were doing something wrong by giving their gift.
Ok. This is getting boring, so my last post on the subject.
Propogating ones genes, and thus nurturing of the next generation is coded in the genes of sentient animals, be they humans or others. So yes, all animals are child centric. There are always outliers where the young are consumed, but often they are consumed because they are not offspring of the dominant male or lack or availability of food. But that is really a red herring argument.
So yes societies are child centric. It is also true that humans are attache dto their caretakers – usually parents. Nowhere in my post have I said that this is not the case or there should be no such attachment. What I wanted to point out is that in the case or doling out of resources, beyond a certain point, the excess usually goes to children. Whether that is right or wrong is your perosnal opinion. Once the needs of everyone in the family are fulfilled, then the rest is set aside for a rainy day for the earner and for the next generation.
The very idea of next generation toiling solely for the benefit of the previous generation is unnatural when seen in that light. But humans, as higher order primates do not severe these bonds easily, these bonds are strong enough to overcome our natural instincts and so yes we take care of our parents.
What I am saying is that being child centric is the natural state in my opinion. Being equally responsible for one’s parents is not a part of natural order.
So the your accusation of being too child centric or “child worshipping” rings false to me.
Also, you use “child-centric” and child worshipping” as equal and interchangeable terms. AND THEY ARE NOT.
When a parent thinks that her child’s fart smells like roses- that is child worshipping! :)
You know who you are. :)
There are some real cultural differences in this regard- the stadard “US model” is that the parents provide for the children, and usually (except for McCaully Culkin and Lindsey Lohan) the parents have more of everything …in some other cultural models, the children are always giving back, and they would almost be ashamed to have anything, because all the “spoils” are delivered back to the parents. The “US Model” parent would be almost ashamed to ask the child for support or favors; in the other cultures, the parents would expect them as a given.