Thursday’s TPS Report: Ultimate Double Weave Columnist Pant
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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Sales of note for 1/31/25:
- Ann Taylor – Suiting Event – 30% off suiting + 30% off tops
- Nordstrom – Cashmere on sale; AllSaints, Free People, Nike, Tory Burch, and Vince up to 60%; beauty deals up to 25% off
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 20 off your $100+ purchase
- Boden – 15% off new season styles
- Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
- J.Crew – Up to 40% off winter layers
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off sweaters and pants
- Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – End of season clearance, extra 70% off markdown tops + extra 60% off all other markdowns
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- My workload is vastly exceeding my capability — what should I do?
- Why is there generational resentment regarding housing? (See also)
- What colors should I wear with a deep green sweater dress?
- How do you celebrate milestone birthdays?
- How do you account for one-time expenses in your monthly budget?
- If I'm just starting to feel sick from the flu, do I want Tamilfu?
I really like those pants! I have a red pair that I adore and feel awesome wearing. My only hesitation is that these appear to be more of a bootcut, while my red ones are straight-leg trousers. For some reason, that makes a difference to me as far as the teenybopperness. I’ll have to try these on before buying.
P.S. I didn’t get the stack overflow message this time. :)
By the way, Kat, I’m wearing that Elie Tahari dress from Lord & Taylor today. I love it; great find.
Wore mine earlier in the week! Ditto!
Did you wear a jacket over it? How’d you think it looked?
I love these pants and may have to go check them out today. I received Express coupons in the mail yesterday. Fate?
As an aside, do any of you get weird looks from the boring dressers in your office when you wear color. I wore a red skirt with a black jacket and white and black top earlier this week and got a glare from one of my collegues who wears nothing but baggy blah suits.
Totally! I used to work with a woman who would comment on my shoes ENDLESSLY. Wow, those are pointy! Wow, those are high! Wow, those are colorful! Never a compliment, always astonishment. And these were basic shoes from, say, Ann Taylor or BCBG, not Prada.
I was at a formal (well, as formal as my job ever gets) event last year, and wore kitten heels. No less than five people were like, “You can WALK in those things?” Why yes I can, as the heel is less than two inches high…
Oh yes, it doesn’t even have to be color, just if I wear a nice skirt or dress a little creatively. My Boden skirts always get comments, mostly positive, but part of me wonders if some of my colleagues think I can’t possibly be serious about my work because I think about things like pretty skirts.
If you’re getting positive comments, I’d take them at face value! I like to tell people when I like their clothes and it has no relationship to what I think about their professional acumen, its just that I like their clothes!!
Ah! I just ordered but didn’t get my coupons!! Would you mind sharing the code?
I think they’re single use only unfortunately.
Shoot! I know I’ve shared mine before. I’ll call in. Express is pretty good about that stuff. Thanks anyway Bonnie!
No stack overflow message for me either and I’ve been getting it every time recently!
same I had it about an hour ago but not this time
I was wearing the viridian green jcrew pencil skirt (with a grey cashmere sweater) about a month ago, and an old school partner got on the elevator with me and said “wow, you look like you’re dressed for St. Patrick’s Day! You don’t see that color too often!”
(1) that’s not even the right green for St. Patrick’s Day. (2) I know you only wear black, navy, and grey, but that doesn’t mean that I have to.
I dress pretty colorfully on a regular basis (um, viridian green and grey has got nothing on today’s outfit), but I have to live with the fact that this partner and probably others are apparently judging me for it.
(And — I finally tried on the Elie Tahari dress from L&T this morning — LOVE)
I hate this color. Blargh. I prefer the red! :)
(It may just be that this color looks awful on me.)
You’re not alone. I hate this color, too.
I also wish the trend of this color would go away, I prefer red too (obvi!) I wish I liked this color more/it looked better on me, bc I feel like royal blue is a more professional way to add color to your wardrobe. As a young female lawyer in a male dominated practice area, I worry about wearing a bright red blazer or something, or a red shirt with a black suit.
Are oxford pumps still in style? I have these from Jones New York (I think someone on here recommended them, actually): http://tinyurl.com/76wfuzw
I have those, I think they are great for work.
I think those are pretty classic. And cute. :-)
Even if they aren’t, I love those!
I have these! I think maybe I was even the one who recommended them. I still wear them regularly at work …
stack overflow first thing this morning
love the blue/black/white combos which seem to be popular last year and this!
but to find red or blue slacks that are not skintight, pencil, or worse yet, labelled as “skinny” is starting to seem downright impossible (I’m looking at you, NYDJ, for violating an unstated expectation from your brand’s name)
Has anyone tried on J.Crew’s Madelene dress? I like the full skirt in concept, but is it frumpy?
I think that could be bordering on frumpy. It could work on someone with great style, but it would be really difficult to do.
I don’t think a full skirt is necessarily frumpy, but too me the length of the Madeline dress makes the full skirt frumpy. If you shortened it so it hit mid knee cap I think it would look much more youthful.
Early TJ. I’m fairly certain I’m getting sacked tomorrow. But I need some advice on what a NGDGTCO woman would do in my situation.
Small firm, mid-sized city. Very small department. I was hired about a year ago. There’s been some turbulence in the department, specifically, the partner that hired me left abruptly about 1/2 a year ago. Since I had been mostly working for him, my work dried up. I had a “year end” review in December, where the remaining partner in the department basically told me that my work was subpar and my hours far below the minimum. (The comment about my work may very well be true. I don’t have a good working relationship with the remaining partner and he has a tendency to dole out piecemeal work to me, which makes it difficult for me to do a good job – I constantly feel under-informed and making “good guesses” at best.) He said we would set up a weekly meeting to try to improve my work product and have a follow up review in a few months. Tomorrow is the follow up review.
The people who will be in the meeting are me, the remaining partner and the managing partner. So, it is clear that I am totally scr*wed.
My issue – I have a feeling that they are going to make this a performance based dismissal, which means that my (short) career as a lawyer might be ending. I had been at my previous firm for 2 years, but that was over 2 years ago (I took some time off in between), and my relationships there were good, but not deep.
What would you do in my situation? I’m not sure what benefit there could be to fighting the dismissal – there was nothing for me to acknowledge up to now, all of the reviews were written by the remaining partner, shown to me and filed. Do I even bother to tell the managing partner of how we got to this situation? It’s such a small firm that I don’t believe that he doesn’t already know and is complicit. I feel anxious and lost.
i am so sorry. did you ever have the weekly meetings that were first suggested by the remaining partner?
while i agree that you should probably leave the firm – doesn’t look like there’s much benefit to staying – i do think you should try and make your departure more a matter of fit/circumstance/need rather than faulty performance. if the firm said they would help you improve your performance, but never did – because they didn’t have time or because they didn’t need you any more – i would think that is grounds for saying that there just wasn’t a fit or need for your work, rather than saying your performance was sub-par. that obviously makes it easier for you to find another position. i would be surprised if the firm wasn’t willing to do that.
good luck!
Yes, we have been having weekly meetings. The partner has been pointing out errors and gaps in my work, but none of it has been anything big or serious. But as you point out, I believe most of this has been for show, so that the firm can say it took an active role in trying to improve my performance but ultimately without success.
I think you should be able to spin it to new employers as a lack of work issue, esp since the partner you were working for left. (Where did he go, and would he give you a reference?)
I was let go from a big firm bc of lack of work (I hadn’t had enough for months), but they tried to tell me it was bc of performance. All my prior reviews had been good on performance. When I looked for new jobs, I just said it was bc there wasn’t enough work and everyone accepted that, no question. The partners at the former firm also gave me good references when called.
The partner who left did not go to another firm. I honestly don’t know what he’s up to now. He left a personal email when he left – I have emailed him, but have not gotten any responses. The whole thing was really odd, and I’m not the only one who thought so.
Wow, I’m so sorry you are going through this. While fighting the dismissal may not result in a benefit as you state, if you don’t do it at all, you may regret it later. I would calmly mention the things you attribute it to in paragraph 2 – it’s perfectly normal to defend oneself. I would also ask if there might be another department at the firm they might move you to. If not, I would ask if they would assist with your job search (let you stay on while you look, provide recommendations, etc.). They liked you enough to hire you, so I would hope, a year later, they like you enough to throw you a freakin’ bone.
I would make yourself a list on paper to take into the meeting of things you want to say and things you want to ask for:
* I will be looking for a new job
* I will be telling people that I left because there was not enough work for me here
* I would like X (managing partner?) to be available to give references for me
* I would like the reference to be “We simply didn’t have enough work for her.”
* I would like to be able to continue to use my office/phone/email until I find a new job (but you don’t have to pay me during that time because I won’t be doing any work for you)
* anything else?
You are NOT the only person this has happened to, so the partners at your firm should not be at all surprised by these completely legitimate requests.
Good luck and keep us updated, please.
This is very good advice. I think at this point, the best you can hope for is to negotiate a smooth transition out with at least a neutral reference. I know its hard, but try for this, and it is pretty standard in the industry!
Oh! And one bad experience does NOT end a career!!
This.
Those are all good points. You also should ask for:
– Some paid time as part of the transition — say, three months to find another job, while you continue to use the office as a base. You might ask for 6 in hopes of getting 3. We have done this even for support staff, such as when we eliminated a particular practice group and had no work for the assigned paralegal/assistant; we gave her three months to find a job and let her do the job hunt on work time, while also helping other clericals. The firm should not balk at doing this for an attorney.
– An agreement that, if you don’t have another position at the end of the paid time, and you are let go, the firm will not contest your claim for unemployment benefits. (It’s not much, but it’s income.)
– A specific agreement that the firm will not disparage you to potential employers. If necessary, this can be a mutual non-disparagement agreement — they won’t trash you, and you won’t trash them.
And I agree, this is NOT the end of your career, just the end of your time in a bad situation. You will come out of this fine and I feel certain it will be better in the long run.
I was going to suggest all of this.
Very sorry you are dealing with this, I would suggest the following:
– Find examples of your best work during your time there (including any comments/praise etc you have received from anyone).
– Take control of the situation – you can choose to “move on” after the meeting so you don’t have to deal with a dismissal.
– Great time to network, network, network – something else will come along!!
Best of luck!!!!
Thank you all for the advice so far. Very helpful. The dread I feel today for tomorrow’s impending meeting is making my whole body hurt.
I don’t know if this will help, but I think you need to go into tomorrows meeting assuming you are being let go. Get it all out of your system with a friend or your SO before you step into the meeting. Cry, scream, shake, whatever so that you can be as calm and professional as possible in the meeting itself. Then bring a list of the action items above with you so you remember what you need to go over with them.
Practice talking about these things and being firm, calm, and assertive. Repeat the phrase “I’m sorry this hasn’t been a good fit and I want to make sure my transition out of the position is smooth” or something to the effect.
Good luck!!
I would suggest that if you are terminated, you make a second attempt to get in touch with the partner who left in which you tell him you are looking for new employment and need his reference. He may be more likely to contact you if you are no longer attached to the firm. He may even feel safe enough/want to commiserate enough to give you an explanation for his departure at that point.
I had a similar situation and the one thing I regret not doing is keeping more of my work product. I wish I had saved of all the types of things that I drafted. I only took a couple briefs to use as writing samples and now I wish I had my standard demurrer argument, discovery requests, etc.
My dear, all this is great advice, and I’m sorry this bad situation happened to you. There is a job out there that is a Terrific fit for you, and that you will be wonderful at, and that you will be valued at! It’s out there, you just need to find it.
In the meantime, you need to be calm, confident and assertive. Remind yourself of the positive feedback you’re received in the past and the good work you’ve done. Remind yourself that politics and lack of work led to this situation. While you’re not looking for the split to be acrimonious, you should go into it planning to stand up for yourself, and to make sure you get a fair deal. Good luck, you will do great!
Oh, and this evening, distract yourself by doing something fun – watch a movie or hang out with fun people doing something that doesn’t let you brood.
My last job was eliminated a few years ago so I empathize with you. Call and e-mail people TODAY and make coffee/lunch meetings ASAP. Update your resume and look for job postings on-line and when you see openings, start applying for them today (since it doesn’t sounds like you are going to be at this firm long-term anyway). Also, I agree with everyone who said you should negotiate to stay there longer to look for a job – it is much easier to find a job when you are already employed. During the 6 week period that I was employed in lieu of severance, I had 30+ networking meetings, 3 interviews, and 1 job offer and I was working within 1 month of my last day at my last job. If I can do it, you can do it as well. Good luck.
By the way, it is painful to be dismissed regardless of circumstances. Just let that harden your resolve to find something better and leave this place. Also, if you can, make a copy of your past reviews and printout your contacts.
I’m so sorry. Especially if they’re not going to give you severance, you want to be very clear about the terms of your separation. Even though you may feel better “choosing” to leave, in many cases that will make you ineligible for unemployment. Being laid off because there isn’t sufficient work is different from being let go because your work wasn’t good enough, which may be different from being let go for “cause.” Check with the unemployment department before your meeting so you are armed with information.
Love love love. Prob a bit too narrow for my short stumpy legs, though.
agreed – great color, but i’d need a trouser. i wonder if they make this color in the editor cut.
I bought these and LOVE them: http://www.shopbop.com/high-waist-wide-leg-pant/vp/v=1/845524441927482.htm?folderID=2534374302023685&fm=browse-brand-shopbysize&colorId=13049.
Oh no… Somehow, until today, I did not know Shopbop existed. I am SO screwed.
They price match too. I saw these online at Neiman for $69, so I called ShopBop and they matched the price for me.
Shopbop’s website says they are a shopbop exclusive. Where are they online at Neiman?
Good question. Maybe that was why they were marked down so low? Not sure.
I could use some suggestions for a necklace to wear with my wedding dress. The dress is a Pippa (photo: bridalelegance [dot] us [dot] com/blog/?p=58) knock-off with a slightly higher and smoother neckline. So far, studies have shown that pendant necklaces look too angular. I don’t have any particular style preference; I just want something that will look okay, or to be told that I shouldn’t wear any necklace at all. I would appreciate any guidance.
I’d say either a string of pearls or a necklace that has the design built in.
That will be beautiful. I say no necklace.
i say no necklace; that neckline alone is fine. wear sparkly earrings instead!
congratulations!
I wore a simple single black pearl necklace ala http://www.amazon.com/Tahitian-Black-Necklace-Sterling-Silver/dp/B004R66PMA (though not as expensive) for my wedding and it might look really beautiful with this as well.
I say no necklace but large pearl and diamond earrings that are on the ear, not hanging.
ditto no necklace
So pretty! I’d say take a cue from Pippa. No necklace and consider putting your hair part-way up. You could probably do a bracelet if you want, but be careful, depending on the fabric of your dress and the style of bracelet My bracelet snagged my wedding dress on my wedding day.
Congratulations!!! I agree with the chorus. Pippa must have had top professional stylists including Sarah Burton herself, so if those talented minds ended up deciding Pippa’s dress would be most beautiful without a necklace, I think that’s probably the way to go. I’d vote short drop earrings for a bit of movement, as opposed to studs. If there’s a Nordstrom Bridal near you, I suggest taking a look at their selection. I got married in December and found that they had the best, most well edited selection of bridal jewelry, including a lot of things that weren’t online. Or you could go studs and some awesome (subtly, elegantly) blingy hair accessories.
No necklace. Necklaces never look right with a cowl neck.
No necklace. This will elongate your neck and highlight your collarbones which is a very elegant look. Agree with others on going with statement/semi-statement earrings.
I’d go no necklace and these earrings
http://shop.kojimapearl.com/products/silver-sparkle-mini-hoops-with-long-white-drop-pearls
she also has some that are perfectly matching and more standard shape drops if you’re not into the whole fraternal twin thing.
symmetrical drops
http://shop.kojimapearl.com/products/silver-sparkle-hoops-with-white-drop-pearls
Oooohhh, lovely earrings!
These pants are lovely.
Is it me, or is anyone else in that “ugh I hate everything in my closet I want new (spring) clothes NOW” mode? I seem to NEED color every February.
Yes! Yes! Yes!
(“I’ll have what she’s having”)
Not just you . . .
I need multiple pairs of neon-colored short shorts immediately, for some reason.
Reality is more closely reflected in the black wool plaid skirt and boots I am wearing today.
Ha! That’s funny. In the south, we are holding on for dear life to our little glimpses of winter and a chance to wear our winter clothes. In fact, I’m taking a short trip to Boston in a couple of weeks and I’m so excited because I get to extend the wearing season on my winter clothes and boots. You sound like we do in October – we end up having a wardrobe of darker colored summer weight clothes because otherwise you want to burn your summer clothes at the end of the season.
I posted on the weekend thread but I’ll post again here that I got a great bright comfy pencil skirt at Target for $17.99. I’m wearing it today and love it. I have it in “lush moss” which is more like a deep teal. It is also much more substantial than pictured. It keeps its pencil shape when you walk.
http://www.target.com/p/Mossimo-Womens-Ponte-Knit-Skirt-Assorted-Colors/-/A-13908717
I also got this super comfortable short slip in white to wear under it and other skirts where I need an extra layer:
http://www.target.com/p/Vassarette-Womens-Body-Curves-Half-Slip-18-Assorted-Colors/-/A-13787057
Loved the skirt, totally sold out in my size in all colors.
Check your store. I got it this past weekend and there were plenty.
Good to know; I woudn’t have gone to the store because the website said not sold in stores, aack. I’ll check it out tomorrow.
I’m in moderation currently but I posted over the weekend about a great bright teal pencil skirt at target for $17.99. Link will follow when I’m cleared. I also link to a cheap, comfy slip I bought to go w/ that and other skirts where I need an extra layer.
Yes! I have been boldly wearing non-black outfits all week.
Resume threadjack – my husband is currently interviewing, and one of the points of feedback that a recruiter gave him was that his resume doesn’t accurately convey all of the interesting things that he’s done. My husband recognizes this issue, but isn’t sure how to rectify it (like, does he make his resume two pages, etc.) – he still has the standard straight-out-of-college format. He is in the tech field, so I’m not what the norm is. Any tips or websites that might be helpful?
If the recruiter is any good, he/she should be able to give your husband some specific pointers, maybe sample resumes, etc. to look at and tell him what the norm is for that field.
Otherwise I’m sorry I don’t have specific sites to suggest – I’m sure others will have ideas or else a google search or a LinkedIn search will turn up options.
clarification – i assume by recruiter, you mean headhunter. If the recruiter is an HR rep at some company he interviewed at, I’d suggest your husband go find a headhunter for his field.
Definitely stretch to two pages if the experience justifies it. Also, he might consider a functional resume rather than a straightforward chronological one?
I recently coached an intern in my federal agency who is embarking on the job search. He sat down and told me the things he was most proud of as an intern. NONE of them were on his resume. Make sure basic things like big accomplishments and scope of achievements are clear from the resume, not just descriptions of the work that was done.
There’s no problem with two pages, but functional resumes are hated by many, many HR reps and hiring managers. Make sure he’s listing his favorite accomplishments, not just his responsibilities. For tech, it’s common to have a “Skills” or “Areas of Expertise” section, above the job history. And the job history section can be “Experience”, and include non-paid experience, if it’s relevant to what he wants to do and highlights some of the previously-missing interesting things.
One suggestion a recruiter I worked with said was that, when you’ve been working for awhile, is to look at your resume outside the traditional “I did this and then I did that” box and consider grouping by type of experience or by some other rubric. Something to give it a little more kick.
Any recommendations for (thick/warm) running tights? It’s finally starting to get cold here in the Midwest. Trying to stay frugal-ish on this purchase. Thanks!
I have a great pair of Brooks that are fleece lined, but not in an “oh-my-god-these-are-so-hot-I’m-overheating kind of way. They zip at the ankle and are really comfortable, too. As far as the price, I don’t think they were cheap-cheap, but they were not outrageous. I’ve run in them at least 150 times between last winter and this winter, so I find them absolutely worth it.
I’ll put a link in the next post.
http://www.brooksrunning.com/Utopia-Thermal-Tight/220324001.035,default,pd.html?start=12&cgid=womens-apparel-tights-pants
UnderArmour Cold Gear is the best. Target’s C9 line sometimes had knockoffs, but I think UA is worth the extra few bucks.
Under Armour ColdGear. Will post link to follow, but basically…they’re not the cheapest things around, but they last forever (I’ve had mine for six years of fairly heavy use and the only wear they’re showing is a small hole in one knee, where I wiped out on some cobblestones with my typical grace) and are a perfect cold-weather running weight. I got mine at D i c k ‘ s; they’re usually good about emailing out coupons.
http://www.underarmour.com/shop/us/en/pid1001525
I have these for running, but am seriously considering wearing them under skirts in place of fashion leggings. Has anyone done this? Is it noticible that they’re running tights?
I have the UA Cold Gear tights and, I think, there are quite noticeable seams down the side.
Also, I have a UA outlet store by me, but not sure if they have outlet prices; maybe you have a UA outlet store by you.
I do this allllll the time (in fact, the tumble I mentioned above was during an er, non-running-related evening outing). They do have seams, but I seriously doubt that they’re noticeable to anyone else. But honestly, I wouldn’t care that much if they were.
on a recent trip I decided to economize and just pack running tights (I think mine were Athleta) instead of my regular leggings and encountered two problems when I tried wearing them as a substitute for leggings: 1) too hot and 2) after a while I noticed they had a shine to them I hadn’t noticed before.
As for leggings I would recommend, I have two pairs from Athleta I love but my absolute favorite pair are from Skirt Sports. I wear them running, snowboarding, snowshoeing . . . pretty much anything I can find an excuse to wear them. I can’t find the ones I have but I will post a link to some that are on super sale at Sierra Trading Post.
Here is the link: Mine actually have a skirt but these are just leggings.
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/skirt-sports-under-skirt-leggings-for-women~p~4288x/?filterString=Skirt-Sports~b~1862%2F&colorFamily=01
Here is the Ice Queen Skirt I have and love:
http://www.skirtsports.com/shop/product.cfm/id/5012-Ice-Queen-Skirt
Not cheap but doesn’t show any signs of wear after three years of heavy wear and I do not do anything special in the wash other than refrain from fabric softeners.
I have them too, and I think mine are shiny, which would definitely be a red flag that they are not tights.
I have a pair of brushed/fleecey lined Nike ones that I got at a Nike outlet. I love them because they’re toasty and have just about the most perfect countour seaming I’ve seen in running tights. Also, I have them in navy, which is a nice change from the usual black and gray selection.
Unfortunately they’re a couple years old and I couldn’t find similar ones online :( But if you can get to a Nike outlet, I highly recommend it. Cute stuff for a lot less than regular Nike prices.
I have two pairs of UA cold gear, and also a pair of fleece-lined ones from Pearl Izumi, which are pretty awesome. The PI pair is definitely warmer; I only wear them when it’s REALLY cold out.
This sounds weird, but try Reebok. They are regularly about $50, but they go on sale all the time at D*cks Sporting Goods if you have one locally, and I’ve snagged them at more like $25! I prefer these running tights to the CWX ones that cost me some serious bank.
I am pretty sure these are the ones that I have/love: http://shop.reebok.com/US/product?modelId=RV073&articleId=X14358
I would just go to a Sports Authority or any large sports store and see what they have on sale. I also hit up Nordstrom Rack or Marshalls for cheapish running tights. They may not be the most fashionable tights (think Lululemon) but they’ll do the job.
I have tights/pants from UA, Target, Nike and Adidas that have lasted for 4-5 years, and I wear/wash them every week between November and March.
In case you are a petite person, UA tights run large, FYI.
Hind DryLete or Arctic Drylete.
TJ re: a second interview
I had an interview last week for a small firm and I think I really nailed it – confirmed by the fact that I’ve been asked back for a second interview. I was told that the point of the second interview is to meet the rest of the firm (very small firm – three lawyers and maybe 4 staff). How does one prepare for this? I did all of my research on the firm/interviewer the first time around and it served me well. I guess I just have no idea what to expect here?
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
I think if you’re at this point in the process, they’re much more concerned on making sure that you’ll get along with everyone. For small firms in particular, it’s doubly important to make sure that you’ll fit in. I think the most important part of the interview is to be super positive and likable. Be interested in your (presumptive) future coworkers as individuals. Good luck!
Hi – I’m a newbie ny lawyer and am perhaps one step ahead of you in a similar situation. Interviewed with the 2 name partners at a 7-atty firm and was asked back for a second interview to also “meet the rest of the firm.” I met with the other 4 attorneys (1 was leaving, hence the vacancy) all at once in a conference room and they took turns asking me questions (not sure if this’ll be your case). It was somewhat casual but they asked questions confirming what P said – questions that would elicit answers about “fit.” They asked what kind of work environments I’d liked/disliked, they told me the firm was very team-based and open-door. So I’d agree with P that, at least for me, this was a “fit” interview – since they told me a lot about their own work and how they do things, etc.
They asked for writing samples at this 2nd interview (which I sent in) but haven’t heard back yet and it’s been nearly 2 weeks since I sent the writing samples (over 2 weeks since the 2nd interview). I’m starting to get a bit nervous about just never hearing back… (sorry, I’m sure this isn’t helpful but I’ve been carrying it around and don’t know where else to let it out!).
I say just have some good examples of work environments that worked/didn’t work for you. Examples of work you’ve done in different situations (high-pressure, not enough work, etc.). And echoing P again, BE POSITIVE!!! Good luck!!!
In my situation, they asked for my additional documents within a week and made an offer to me about three weeks after the interview. Sometimes it’s a matter of just making sure the partners all have time to meet and approve the offer. Good luck and I’ll be thinking of you too!
I posted yesterday about being accepted at my asking price as the 7th attorney at a small firm. This is a great step for you. What everyone is saying is right – they want to see you as a good fit. When I interviewed, I had two interviews, met every attorney, and had a meal (lunch or dinner) with every attorney. I’d prepare for it just like the first interview, but I would ALSO think of 2-3 things about yourself that you didn’t say or want to re-emphasize in this interview.
A big deal is making sure you’ll fit in, and making sure you’re around to stay. It hurts a small firm a lot more if you leave after 2 years than at a larger firm. Whatever you can do to resolve those concerns will help you.
Good luck!
I had a similar experience, and in my case the second interview was definitely just a “fit” interview, basically the existing lawyers were meeting me to make sure they liked me, it was as simple as that. One thing that happened that I did not at all expect is that after I met the other lawyers, I was handed back off to the partners who interviewed me who basically offered me a position and wanted to talk details right away (when can you start, salary, etc). It caught me a little off guard, all my previous experience was with large firms and that is not how it was done. This was much more informal, in a small firm there often aren’t policies etc to follow about hiring and also they often don’t have a lot of experience in the hiring process so are making it up as they go along. So be prepared to talk job offer details just in case, and also don’t get thrown by anything unexpected during the interview. It’s likely just a reflection of how things go in a small firm (not as formal and organized as a big firm).
Good luck!
I am frustrated at the lack of flexible/reasonable hours jobs in the legal industry. It seems like anything 40 hours per week or less pays 65K or less. Due to some changed circumstances, my husband and I started a family earlier than planned. I’d like to be able to spend time with my child but I feel like in cutting back to full time from a big law type schedule I’m giving up so much in salary that we won’t be able to stop paying down loan debt and start growing our nest egg for years. Flex time at my old job was not an option. Anyone else feeling the same way?
Yes. Many, many other people are feeling that way. :-)
Yes, I would gather that more attorneys than not feel this way.
Yes, we are.
Huh, I had glossed over the pay thing. If I could find a job that was ACTUALLY 40 hours per week paying 65k starting salary with benefits…I’d probably be pretty happy with that. :-P
Its just that there really aren’t many 40 hour per week jobs out there anymore. And I don’t think that’s all that limited to the law.
I worked part-time at a law firm for a few years when my son was small, and I think the pay was $45k, but that was 15 years ago, and I’m in the midwest in a small city where salaries are generally lower than coastal regions. Not sure what something like that would pay now. My hours were supposed to be 30 hours per week, but were closer to 40. If you want 40, you might want to look for part-time. We have an attorney who is of counsel and is paid on an hourly basis, based on hours billed, I think $50 per hour, you might find some kind of arrangement like that. She doesn’t get benefits, though, except malpractice insurance.
What about becoming a federal career law clerk for a judge? Some of the career clerks I met when I was clerking were extremely content, worked 40 hours or less, and some of them earned more than $100K.
work for the federal government
$65K isn’t exactly a low salary, you know.
It is when you have $150+ of law school loans.
(I was fortunate enough to go to a public school + scholarships, but many people were not)
Not to snark, but this is genuinely something I wonder about every time the lawyers go off about work/life balance–is this not something people consider before taking out the $150k in loans? Like, if you know you want to be able to spend a reasonable amount of time with family, and/or work a standard 40-hour week, why would you get yourself into debt so deeply that the only way to pay it off is to sell your life to biglaw?
Not everyone realizes when they start law school what paying back those loans will actually feel like. Or what your options will be like professionally.
It’s crazy that people keep going to law school. Or that they haaave to work big law. Work for the government or public interest, go on IBR and have your loans forgiven. In general, not just in law, but 40/week jobs that pay over 65 are rare. The more money the more hours.
I also wonder if there is some degree of wishful thinking involved? As in, knowing full well that a majority of people in Big Law end up working crazy hours, but that not everyone does, so people just let themselves believe/hope that they won’t fall into that crazy-hours camp and will instead luck out with a $160k starting salary and a 50 hour workweek?
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I didn’t know any lawyers going into law school, and all I knew about the actual practice was that I’d be likely to get a job. Maybe it’s just me, but I constantly regret that we don’t get more career counseling in high school and the first few years of college. I knew of about 5 career paths when I started college, and not that many more when I graduated.
I didn’t know any lawyers personally before going to law school, but before committing to anything (type of car, neighborhood to live in, etc) you ask around. Some jr. corporettes ask around here, get the info, and I still think they go on their merry way to law school. in general I think there are two delusions, the “well if I’m in the top 10% of my class I’ll be fine” which does not work for 90% of those people, and that for some reason they deserve 160k for 5o hours a week.
+1 to Lynnet. My college was particularly bad at exposing students to any career paths outside of law, medicine, and finance. I went to law school because I was passionate about it, but I did not really have any understanding of what it is like to be a practicing attorney in the twenty-first century.
Funny you should say that. I had 200K of loans when I graduated, and am doing just fine on my $67K salary. There are a lot of assistance programs for public interest lawyers, and frankly, there are a lot of lawyers who have very strange definitions of what it means to struggle financially.
truth! 225k here and 62k a year. doing just fine.
Wow $65K and $200K in loans, are you able to pay on the 10 year term? Retirement? Emergency fund? I had $130K in loans when I graduated in ’99 and I still have a significant portion remaining. I got married have children etc. and find it very difficult.
What if you had all that debt and were making 65k in a non public interest job? Would it be nearly as easy?
This probably goes without saying, but it’s something I feel like people often forget – this hugely varies depending on where you live. 65K is very little in many major cities, but can be enough for a fantastic lifestyle elsewhere.
@ Anon for this – my loan payments total about $13,000 per year. I pay my federal loans on the income-based repayment plan, and they will be forgiven after 10 years. My current payment is somewhere around $450/mo. My private loans have the low interest rates of yesteryear, and are on a standard 15-year repayment plan, with payments around $650/mo. I autodebit everything and so I get a slight interest rate deduction, too.
I contribute 6% to my retirement fund annually, with a generous match from my employer, and I have an HSA to cover medical expenses (which I fund from the tax refund I get every year due to having contributed to the HSA – it’s a nice circle). After I pay my loans, I take home about $2,700 a month, which in DC is enough. I live alone my rent is $1,350 and that leaves me another $1,350 for everything else. I rarely feel deprived, and I can afford occasional splurges. If I were married, I certainly believe I could afford a small home and a life with a spouse making a similar salary. I think most people feel broke when they compare themselves to other lawyers making $200K, rather than to the rest of the country where $50K is an average salary.
@Lynnet – the income-based repayment plan is available to anyone, regardless of whether you’re in the private or public sector. So the payments would be the same, but you wouldn’t have the possibility of total forgiveness in 10 years. I believe that persons who work in the private sector can have any remaining debt forgiven after 25 years.
I’m in DC- pretty high cost of living. I went on IBR so I pay 400 a month. it will be forgiven in either 10 or 25 years. Hoping for 10 obviously. contribute 5% to my retirement fund, and just started an emergency fund (11 grad)
@CB – I live in Washington, DC, which I believe is one of the most expensive cities in the country. If I subtract my loan payments from my salary, I’m still making $54K per year, which is only a bit below the DC average household income of $58K (per 2010 census data). And my household is only one person.
I should add that I’ve been practicing law and paying my loans back for 6 years, so it’s not like I’m naive or just getting started. I’ll admit that things were a bit tighter at my starting salary of 55K, and back then I contributed only a small amount (like 2%) to my retirement plan and forwent (forgoed?) the employer match up to 6%.
Blue jay we are twinsies!
My apologies, Bluejay. I’m in DC as well and I am struggling to do what you are doing, and on a higher salary than you even. Granted, I am married and am supporting my husband through graduate school (he supported me when I was in law school), which means I pay the rent/food/phone bills and student loans(!) of two people on one salary. But still, I should be able to do better I suppose. It’s just so discouraging sometimes seeing how fast the money goes.
“there are a lot of lawyers who have very strange definitions of what it means to struggle financially”
THIS.
@CB – Well your situation is totally different from mine, since you’re supporting two people (and can’t his loans be deferred while he’s a student?).
I think, though, a lot of people just aren’t aware of or don’t take advantages of places where you can save or cut corners. For example, I chose to take a high-deductible health plan (HDHP) and open an health savings account instead of having the lower deductible PPO because, when I sat down and accounted for the lower monthly premium and the fact that the HDHP counts prescriptions toward your premium, the HDHP was cheaper even if I had to pay the out-of-pocket max. Most of my colleagues look at the deductible for the PPO, see that it’s $1,200 less than the deductible for the the HDHP, and pick the PPO even though it costs them exponentially more per months in premiums and (in our case) has an entirely separate copay for prescriptions. They also don’t think about the fact that opening an health-savings account means you can deduct all the money you put into it, and get a huge tax refund (and the money rolls over for the next year if you don’t spend it). Anyway that’s one example and it’s kind of a tangent, but whenever benefits enrollment comes around I hear a bunch of my coworkers making this decision. I overhear similarly poor decision making when it comes to retirement plans, etc.
Many people can also cut back on little expenses, like renting a modem vs. buying your own, buying household items in bulk (Amazon’s subscribe and save program gives you a 15% discount and free shipping), doing a balance transfer on your credit cards to get a lower interest rate and pay them off, automating loan payments to get an interest rate deduction, getting a free checking account, having your paycheck split into multiple accounts so you deposit a small percentage into savings, and so on.
I travel a lot for work and I recently freaked the heck out because I feel like I never have any time to clean my place, and there was so much cat hair and dust everywhere. I canceled a recurring yoga studio membership, because yoga is offered at my gym so I could do it at the gym at no extra cost beyond the gym membership I already pay for, and hired a cleaning lady for the same price as the yoga studio. And I frankly love the cleaning lady way more than I loved the yoga studio.
Anyway it’s not like I’m perfect – I racked up 10K in credit card debt before I figured out how to finally take control of my personal finances (I consolidated it with a balance transfer and am slowly paying it off). But I find it really helpful to read personal finance blogs; my favorite is Get Rich Slowly. I’m not about to start buying lentils in bulk and making a gallon of soup every week, but I have been able to make a lot of little changes that enable me to get my financial house in order and have a little extra money for fun.
Bluejay, will you be in charge of my life??
Which personal finance blogs do you suggest?
@Totes – Get Rich Slowly is my favorite, especially if you are trying to get out of debt. I used to like I Will Teach You to Be Rich, and I do think that blog still has good advice, but I feel like the author really focuses on shilling for his products rather than on blogging now (which is fine, everyone needs to make a living, but his products don’t really seem worth buying to me). The NYT Bucks Blog is also good. Sometimes Lifehacker has good tips, too. For books, I like Suze Orman (especially 9 Steps for Financial Freedom), and I also found Personal Finance for Dummies and Investing for Dummies to be moderately helpful. I’m not really into frugality blogs or trying to make extreme cutbacks, but I know there are a lot of blogs focused on frugality. The Simple Dollar is the only one I read with any regularity.
I think that getting your finances in order is part craftiness/diligence in finding where you can cut an expense or take advantage of an opportunity for savings, but it’s honestly mostly drudgery. You have to make responsible decisions day in and day out for years on end. When I was in my early to mid-20s, I thought that if I was frugal for a week I deserved to reward myself with something, and so I racked up credit card debt and spent more of my student loan money on frivolous things than I really should have. Now that I’m older, I realize that the peace of mind that comes from being able to pay my own bills and save for the future is a lot more rewarding than a manicure, new dress, or even a vacation.
Go in house.
Also, I know exactly how you feel. I’ve basically given up on growing a nest egg and have reconciled myself to the fact that I will work forever.
Going in-house isn’t necessarily the answer. I work in-house and I typically work 55 – 60 hour weeks. I’ll work 70 – 80 hour weeks during certain busy times of the year. And I know other in-house attorneys in the same situation.
Tons of people feel this way. I think part of it is that women value their time more, and men value money more. I’d trade some of my money for more free time, not so for my husband (who would trade some of his free time for more money). I think the (mostly male) management at law firms just doesn’t get that someone can be very dedicated, but want to work less time for less money. So it is hard to find a good option out there to do that. I’d also chime in and say that $65K for a 40 hr/week job is not that bad at all, so if you have an option like that consider how you could make it work with your student loans.
Federal or local government is your best shot at something like that. I don’t know why anyone would expect to get paid the same or similar salary for significantly less work. You want the best of everything and, I mean, who doesn’t? But the reality is that is difficult to achieve in any profession (certainly not unique to law). It’s sort of like being frustrated that money doesn’t grow on trees and there is no such thing as a free lunch. Those things are truly frustrating but not in any way surprising. At least in my area, there has always been and will probably always be a lack of jobs with low hours and high pay.
It seems like the bigger problem here is that your circumstances changed unexpectedly so you weren’t able to plan for this kind of transition beforehand by reducing your living expenses and looking strategically for a more flexible job. I do think that these types of positions are easier to achieve if you have the opportunity to plan for it ahead of time, and it seems like you didn’t have that opportunity. That really sucks and it is frustrating.
Some people have managed to work out something close to what you want, but it has been either (a) government of some type or (b) working as a consultant/contract atty/some other kind of” reduced” schedule at a private firm or business. Both of those options should pay 60-100k, but it really depends on your locality/cost of living and how much experience you have.
Right I don’t really understand this thinking. Reading it to me was essentially reading “is anyone else frusterated that the best homes with all the nice amentities cost more than I can afford?”
I would really like to find any legal job that would allow me to work a 40 hour work week. I don’t need to make more than 50k, but even the 50k jobs want you to work 60 hours a week. That’s what’s so frustrating.
Do you have any interest in taking a public interest type job? A lot of issue advocacy organizations (especially in DC) have Staff Attorney positions that sort of combine law and policy. Normal office hours. Legal work. Pay is average but if it’s a subject that you like then the work is really fulfilling!! Just a thought. (Idealist is a good place to look for these types of postings)
Gah, I was just thinking this and feeling the same way this week. My current clerkship is ending in the fall so I’ve started looking for a new job. I also have a young child and am looking for something with the same hours I’m working now. There aren’t any other clerkships available in my area, and the government jobs here mostly only pay around $45k. I would be ecstatic to make $65k and be able to work a 40 hour week! But I’m in the Midwest where the cost of living is pretty reasonable, so YMMV. I only have a couple years’ experience, so I doubt I will be able to get an in-house job, but like anon said, that may be a viable option for you. If you come up with a solution, please share. Otherwise all I can offer you is commisuration.
I work for the government and really I know of very few attorneys who work a 40 hour work week.
Yeah, I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that any government job will let you do that. Of the federal gov lawyers I know, most of the non-DOJ ones work 40-50 hours on a regular basis. It really depends on your agency and your job. Local PDs and prosecutors can also have long hours, but it depends on the culture of your particular locality I think.
I’m local gov in a fairly litigation heavy position and I generally work 40-50 hours a week, and earn comp time so that a 45 hr week gets me 5 hrs of paid time off some other time, which I’m actually able to take as long as I plan for it. Or sometimes I’ll get stuck in court and have a 10 hour day, but then I take a 6 hour day later in the week. I think if you need predictable 8 hr days, you just have to stay out of litigation, private or government.
I worked a 60 percent schedule for a federal agency — about 26 hours a week. I do check and respond to e-mails when I am not “working,” and I do not bill my agency for it (in theory, I get paid for hours I work beyond my schedule). I make more than $65,000 and less than $100,000 with my prorated salary. Most of the woman who are part-time in my department work closer to a 34 hour week. I will say, when you factor in taxes (given that my spouse makes far more than me) and child care, my take home net of child care is a negative number. I worked full-time for slightly less than 2 years at this agency, and a long time in big law.
It is next to impossible to get a federal job these days, however, with the Congressional focus on budget cutting. My agency is not funded through the Congressional budget and they have stopped lateral hiring (can still get in through the honors program if just graduating). I think state agencies are in a similar place.
Hi Anon for this,
Can you elaborate on the “honors program if just graduating”? I’m starting LS in the fall (got my acceptance today!) and would love to know.
Thank you!
google honors programs for law students
My agency hires graduating law students the fall before they would start full time. Honors programs are generally extremely selective (I think my agency hired about 15 of more than 300 applicants), but many agencies have them. This year nearly everyone hired had completed a federal clerkship.
I’m sympathetic, but on the other hand, you get the Biglaw salary for putting up with the unreasonable work demands. I didn’t get paid six figures as a first-year because I was naturally brilliant and awesome. I got it because the firm, by paying me that, bought the right to ask me to bill 90 hours in a week, or fly to another city on short notice, or cancel my evening plans.
I slept 2 1/2 hours last night, and I’d love to complain about it, but…that’s what they’re paying me for.
Bingo. Tradeoffs. Something everyone on this board is familiar with, I’m sure.
You get paid that salary because clients are willing to pay ridiculous billing rates and firms want top lawyers so they pay what the market is willing to pay for them. Your salary is only sustained by a certain number of billable hours, but once you’ve hit 1800 you’ve more than earned your fair share of the client’s dime.
I think this whole thread has kind of taken a turn for the snark, though. Some people can get by easily on $60K and some people can’t. Some people have medical expenses, kids, or just different priorities. It’s also one thing to make $60K when you’re 26 and another to make $60K when you’re 36…or 46. So before everyone snaps at the OP about how she should adjust her expectations, I think it’s worth recognizing that it’s ridiculous that there is such a huge disparity in lawyer incomes. It’s not all about time spent working or who went to what school–some of it just boils down to what work is valued monetarily and what work is not. I left my firm and took a $120K pay cut to work at my non-profit org. I’m glad I did it, but it’s been tough to save much money in NYC.
I agree that YMMV as far as what is needed to survive in different locales and in different households. But I think that the OP also added fuel to the fire by making $65K sound like some horrible paltry sum just as a matter of course.
But in general, yes. I agree 100% with your point, and can totally understand how it would be hard (at any age) to make my (less than $65K) salary in NYC.
However, I’m almost a year out of law school. Both my spouse and I work. We live about 1.5 hours outside of Washington, D.C. Between the two of us, we’re paying down our student loans, and are buying our first home (closing tomorrow!). Of course this is affected by our locality, but we’ve also lived very frugally in law school and are smart with our income now that we’re out.
Perhaps the point here is that while any given number may be too little in any given location or situation, any amount of money is made more livable by knowing where it goes, and maximizing savings where you can.
Yes, fair points. But you also share your expenses with a spouse. I’m single in New York and it’s tough. I don’t get to share my expenses or income with someone else–it’s a lot cheaper when you do that. And no, at 33, I’m not about to get a roommate!
I make 105K as an attorney with the federal govt and I work 40 hours a week. Really. I did, however, spend 5 years at a firm and I took a pay cut when I switched over to the govt. I was only making about 70k when I started here but moved up a grade level after a couple of years. So, if you are patient, you can expect to advance in pay within 2-3 years, if you are in a position that covers a range of grade levels.
It depends on how much experience you have, also. I started at my current firm as a 6th year at 80% (32 hrs/week). My salary in ’08 was 115K, but in ’10 they cut it to 100K, and it is still there. I came from biglaw where I was making 270K (FT) when I left, so…yeah, big salary cut, but you can make it up to more $$ if you have more experience.
I work for an insurance company. We have tons of attorneys working here – in claims, in writing policies, working with regulators, dealing with client bankruptcies, etc – and they seem to work the fairly regular hours the rest of us do. We have busy seasons when it’s all hands on deck, but in my work, there are a couple of attorneys I work with regularly, and if I try to call them after 5 or 6PM, they’re gone.
How on earth has no one mentioned starting your own firm? It takes the right kind of person, but my dad is a solo, works 20-25 hours a week (except when he has a trial, which may be a few times a year at best) and I think 200k a year would be conservative guess. He definitely wasn’t making that out of law school, and definitely worked a lot more hours when he was younger, but every year gradually got better.
That’s GREAT for your dad, but that’s not the normal solo life. My fiance is a solo and makes about 90/year, which is high for an attorney in our area, but he works all the damn time, and I say that as someone who works about 50 hours a week at her government job AND has a second job.
Not saying that’s normal or easy (I have no desire to be a solo, at least at this point in my career [baby lawyer]); he’s in his 50s so he definitely had to point in blood sweat and tears to get there. Just pointing out to OP that there are ways in law to make lots of money and not work a lot of hours; it just won’t be 5 years out of law school.
And while yes my dad probably on average throughout the year works 20-25 hours a week he needs to be available all the time by phone and email. He goes on a lot of vacations, but he’s always in contact with clients and the office.
Again, not saying it’s normal, not saying it’s what I’d want to do, but he became very successful.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned starting your own practice. You need a bit saved up for the transition, but depending on your area (and you can always learn more!), you could easily clear the equivalent of 65K (when you factor in the tax benefits of owning your own business) and have a schedule that is quite flexible.
I know several people who have done this. Just don’t go out signing an expensive office lease or hiring an assistant right away.
I was going to mention it, but unless you are getting regular contract work for a firm or local agency (like as a panel attorney for the Public Defender or a Child’s Best Interest atty), it is far too risky for someone that has a family to support and debts to pay. If they can afford to live on her husband’s salary alone for a while, I would say go for it. But I got the impression they didn’t have that kind of flexibility.
I work about 18-20 hours a week and am paid on an hourly basis. Sometimes I do have to work extra hours to get everything done, but I do get paid more for that time and I can do it evenings and weekends when my husband can watch the kids. With the current set-up, I make about $38-40k/year. I work for a small firm that is, obviously, family-friendly.
I don’t know many other part-time attorneys like me, but it works well at this stage in my life. I’ll increase my hours once all the kids are in school all day and will be able to make bigger student loan payments. I’ve just accepted the fact that I’ll have a smaller wage for a while, but it’s worth it to me to be able to care for my kids more while they are little. (And I would lose my freakin’ mind if I was at home all day with them even though I love the little boogers!)
So my boyfriend just sent me this link with the subject line “Are these work-appropriate? I think you should ask Corporette.”
(they’re not exactly NSFW but they are a bit creepy, just warning you)
http://io9.com/5883663/leggings-are-boring–try-a-pair-of-meat-pants-on-for-size
Ohhh I see that Slim Goodbody has a fashion line now!
Hi Ladies, looking for a recommendation for a caring and competent ob/gyn in Boston to deliver our first child. Needs to be someone affiliated with MGH, due to my health insurance. Thanks!
Laura Riley, she is great (@MGH). I think she may only take high risk patients, though, in which case I would go with Erin Tracy (also at MGH) – she delivered my 2nd and was very nice during the process, also helped me push correctly and had minimal soreness etc. :) (sorry if TMI)
PSA: To the person looking for a dress to wear to a wedding yesterday and many commenters suggested Tadashi, there is a Tadashi Shoji sale on ideeli today.
Thank you! (And to everyone who suggested it as well).
I know there have been a lot of posts on how to deal with assistants…this is a vent/request for advice.
I have the worst assistant in our group. Everyone knows she’s lazy and a little sloppy. (e.g., she gave me a hard time about doing an expense report, after I had even organized and listed the charges — apparently the senior attorney who she works with does his own).
Things go in cycles — she’s comparatively good for a while, then makes a mistake or doesn’t want to do something, I push back (nicely) and then have at least a few days of even worse work. For example — she put documents in the wrong file, when I took them out and asked her to put them in the right file (politely, using passive voice “these were in the wrong file”), she basically said someone must have moved them. My take on it — I don’t really care who make the mistake (even though I’m 99.9% sure it’s her), I just want it fixed. It’s not the mistake that upsets me as much as the push back about it.
Now she’s requesting that I bring her files to update — rather than coming down to my office to get them. Which, when I ‘say’ that out loud, makes me sound really high and mighty, since there’s nothing wrong with my legs and obviously I’m not so busy I can’t pose this vent. But REALLY? I’m going email her back and just tell her it’s in my office, she can get it.
It’s not just me that has/had problems with her — it was so bad for another associate (male), that he was assigned a new assistant.
Not sure how to deal with it — I have a list of (petty) complaints, but any push back from me results in even worse behavior from her for a few days. I’m worried an official complaint would be disastrous. I also admit I’m not one for confrontation. She’s also the assistant/gatekeeper to the partner I work with the most. He’s ‘let’ her get away with this for years — she’s not much better with him, he’s just passive enough to not let it bother him. He knows there are issues and says he’ll talk to her, but it’s never really any better.
I’m annoyed with myself for not being able to manage her and concerned that it doesn’t reflect well on my abilities to manage people in general. I’m also worried that trying to improve things will only make it worse. After a few years, I know it’s not her ability at issue, just her attention to detail and motivation.
Any suggestions on how to deal without sounding like a whiner or a b-!-ch? Or just commiseration?
I don’t have advice, but I, too, am looking for tips on managing difficult assistants, so at least you know you’re not alone.
I had a very similar experience with my terrible assistant who was eventually let go after many many complaints, and the firm realized that every partner at my biglaw firm refused to work with her, and they “couldn’t” assign her to new laterals because it wouldn’t be “fair”. Obviously I don’t know anything about your firm, but I can say that it was exceedingly difficult to get to that point with my assistant (numerous rounds of documentation, calls with HR, she received several warnings and chances, etc.). I didn’t relish the process – really, I just wanted to not have her as my assistant anymore, and would have been more than happy to pass her off on other people than see her lose her job – but it is wonderful to have a much better assistant who is competent and doesn’t act like doing her job is a burden.
The best method that I found for dealing with my former assistant is that I refused to give her verbal feedback and only gave her feedback via email. This obviously can cramp some people’s management style (not mine), but I preferred to document every time I gave her negative feedback so that she would not be surprised in her annual review. This also gave me something that I could forward to our HR folks when they solicited feedback.
If you’re friendly with the male associate who got a new assistant, I would start by asking him how he got a new assistant (who did he talk to, what did he say, was it a problem, etc.). Then I would do that. If that doesn’t change anything, I would begin (if you’re not already) documenting every difficult interaction you had with her. Yes, some of your complaints may be petty, but en masse they are indicative of work styles that don’t mesh well together and a poor attitude on her part. After you’ve accumulated a demonstrative number, repeat the same process the male associate used (but now with some evidence to back up your complaints).
I would also start with the associate who got a new assistant. He should be able to offer advice or experience.
I’m sorry. I’m dealing with a similarly poor project manager right now. My complaints sound petty individually, but they combine to a big issue. Unfortunately, due to our bizarre org chart, I have no power to do anything and the one person who does seems ambivalent.
I swear you and I must have the same assistant. I wish I knew what to suggest! I have spoken to my boss (we share the same assistant) numerous times, and he just tends to laugh it off. I’ve even pointed out that my productivity naturally goes down (thus costing him money), when I have to stop billable work to do simple tasks like filing, etc. I’ve tried being nice; I’ve tried being assertive. I’ve tried email and in person, keeping records of when I give assignments (to CMA), etc. No luck so far. As in your case, she’s worked with the same partner for years, and even though other associates have come to him with the same problems, he lets her get away with it.
If anyone has any recommendations other than “just live with it for now,” I’d love to hear them!
Another commiserator (sp?) here. My issues are compounded by the fact that the partner knows the assistant’s work is a problem but doesn’t know what to do about it. FWIW, it seems to me like you are doing all the right things on your end. For me, I just make my life more difficult by doing nearly everything myself (but at least it’s right).
Thanks, ‘rettes. There’s some small comfort in knowing I’m not alone!
The male associate who got a new assistant did so because he was complaining to everyone — officially and unofficially in a way that came back to bite him — it wasn’t the way I want to go about doing that.
The partners are aware of the problem, and say I should just let them know, but I think they are worried about the potential backlash if there are any formal complaints through the office manager/HR.
Right now I’m just doing what I can on my own and standing firm in some areas. She is really good about doing somethings, but the attitude is so annoying at times.
Thanks!
I’ve been wanting a bright colored pant (blue, red, green plaseandthankyou). These look like they’d fit the bill.
Thank you for fixing the issue. I can finally access my Corporette again!!
Yikes — that was longer than I expected. And repetitive!
Baltimore & Annapolis, other nearby areas
I learned yesterday I have to be in Baltimore for a meeting on Tuesday and so my DH and I would like to take advantage of the long weekend and make it into a mini-trip. Does anyone have familiarity with things we absolutely should do on a visit to Baltimore? We’ll probably arrive Sunday mid-day, so we’ll have just Sunday evening and all day/night Monday. I really don’t know anything about the city and welcome any/all ideas and suggestions.
The main tourist attractions in Baltimore are the Inner Harbor and Federal Hill. The harbor is nice but it’s mainly a mall along the water. Baltimore has terrible public transportation so plan on a car. There are some great restaurants in the city. Little Italy has some great italian. Woodberry Kitchen is a locally sourced place that does amazing seasonal c*cktails. There are some cute boutiques in the Fells Point neighborhood.
Annapolis is nice to walk around and unless you are planning on going out on the water, a trip probably won’t take more than a morning.
Oh Annapolis is just lovely. I’m not sure if they run these during the winter, but I took a colonial walking tour of the city. It was about 3 hours and it was wonderful. Also, be sure to eat seafood, especially crab, and check out the shopping in the downtown area near the water. Locals will recommend you eat at Cantler’s, and it is good, but it’s a bit out of the way and hard to find so make sure you map it out first if you want to go there.
I’ve never done touristy things in Baltimore, so no recs there.
The Aquarium is really nice, and the Inner Harbor in generally is really nice to walk around. Check out the menu at Brewer’s Art, especially if you’re into beer. Also Federal Hill is a great area to stroll.
Be aware though that Baltimore more than many cities I’ve been to is very street by street as far as safety goes. Just keep your eyes open.
I went to college in Baltimore and LOVE it. The Inner Harbor is generally overrated, but the aquarium there is excellent. I would second the recommendation for Woodberry Kitchen. If you go there, you will be close to Hampden which is a fun little hipster/artsy neighborhood with some bars and cute shopping if you’re there early enough.
Fells Point and Canton are probably the most fun neighborhoods as far as walking around for shopping and also have probably the best nightlife and tons of seafood restaurants and pubs. The Charles Theater is a cool movie theater connected to a tapas bar. The area around there can be a little sketchy if you go a few blocks in the wrong direction, so I would only go there if you’ve rented a car. Lastly, I would highly recommend the Visionary Art Museum that has outsider art by people who are sick, mentally ill, or otherwise marginalized. It’s next to Fed Hill which is both a neighborhood and a lovely park.
It may depend what your interests are. If you’re into history, I’d suggest a trip to Fort McHenry (the national anthem was penned just nearby) or Westminster Hall & Burying Grounds where Poe is buried (and th Poe House too, for that matter). If you are feeling athletic, you can go up inside the Washington Monument (which predates the DC obelisk as the 1st monument to George Washington) for just a $1 donation.
If you go to Little Italy, I would definitely stop by Vaccaro’s, a fantastic Italian bakery/dessert cafe that’s very well-known around here. It’s true that Harborplace is basically a mall but the Aquarium can be fun. I would probably also send you to Hampden, Federal Hill and Fells Point for interesting local shops and nice walks. There is a shop in Hampden called Ma Petite Shoe that sells shoes and chocolate (should probably be the first stop for any Corporette!), and if you or your husband is a music fan, Soundgarden in Fells Point is not to be missed. Also, if either of you is into comics/pop culture and the like, Geppi’s Entertainment Museum is incredibly cool.
If I weren’t totally slammed, I’d be your personal tour guide! Let us know what you wind up doing.
Oh, and +1 for the Brewer’s Art recommendation, and I think I’m obligated to send you to eat crabs. O’Brycki’s is a well-known crab house if you decide to do that.
Obyricki’s closed several months ago, Faidley’s in Lexington Market is a fun place to go for crab cakes if you want some local favor.
Baltimore has two excellent art musuems, the Baltimore Musuem of Art and the Walters Musuem of Art, neither, unfortunately is near the Harbor but well worth a cab ride (the Walters is probably more accessible, unless you have a car). Fort McHenry is a lot of fun if you have a car, and the weather is tolerable (as it is outdoors). The Science Center, on the Harbor, is actually much better than the aquarium and fun if you want to release your inner child.
Woodberry Kitchen is excellent but very hard to get into (impossible without reservations, and they are near impossible to get) and not close to any hotels. Ha (probably a 15 minute cab ride). Harbor East is the hot new neighborhood and it is walking distance to the Harbor, Federal Hill and Fell Point (all good for shopping and bars). Quite a few hotels there, including a Marriott suites, Marriot and a new Four Seasons. Also lots of restaurants, including the city’s best, Charleston.
LOL can you tell I don’t eat crabs myself?
As if we weren’t giving you plenty of options: http://citypaper.com/bob/2011
FYI you won’t be able to rely on public transport as easily as in other cities, so plan to drive or rely on taxis if you venture out of the immediate downtown area.
Everyone already covered the best stuff. Annapolis is really really lovely and has a ton of cute shops, bars, and restaurants. Of course, it is nicer in the summer when you can walk around. But it should be pretty happening b/c the general assembly is in session. For restaurants in Annapolis, I’d check out Harry Browne’s (major hangout for state politicos), Middleton Tavern, and Galway Bay.
In Baltimore: If you plan to go to Woodberry Kitchen, make a reservation or go early. There are plenty of good restaurants in Baltimore though. In addition to what other’s have mentioned: There’s a good upscale indian place called The Ambassador, a nice burger bistro in Fed Hill (I think called Baltimore Burger Bistro or some such) that has unusual meats like kangaroo and elk, Pazo for upscale tapas, and The Charleston if you really want to blow a bunch of cash on a fancy dinner. And it has already been mentioned, but I’ll throw in another recommendation for Brewer’s Art, which has great food, beer, and atmosphere, plus it’s in Mount Vernon, which can be lovely to walk around.
Regardless of how nice the neighborhood is: Do not walk around at night by yourselves, and I don’t really care how big and threatening DH is. Baltimore is a friendly and fun city, but it is not safe. You can be lulled into a false sense of security in “nicer” neighborhoods, but it isn’t DC- the crime is everywhere, not only in the ghetto.
You are thinking of Abbey Burger Bistro. I can’t believe I didn’t mention it – it is amazing!
I didn’t realize how many Corporettes were in B’more. We should plan a meet up!
Also if you are staying around the Harbor, Miss Shirley’s has an awesome brunch.
I’m in Baltimore, too!
OP, where are you staying? Maybe we can recommend some things near your hotel.
I’m a pretty serious foodie, and the best meal I’ve had in ages was at Charleston.
Any advice on changing branches within the same agency in the federal government?
I left the DC area to begin working for the federal government as a clerk with the idea that a transfer back would be easy. This outlook was overly optimistic in light of the economy and budget battles. My department receives a newsletter that occasionally announces that a new group of hires will begin working in northern Virginia. However, I do not remember seeing these vacancies posted although I check usajobs.gov and the internal vacancy listings regularly.
It seems like there are hidden hiring channels, even in the government. A manager here said that some offices hire through the local bar association or local law schools. Unfortunately, I am barred in Maryland and DC, but not Virginia, and my school, though local to the area, is known for being unhelpful for all but the “chosen few.”
Should I just send an unsolicited application to HR in northern Virginia?
“It seems like there are hidden hiring channels, even in the government”
Shocker.
Sarcasm aside, I have been told many times that you can only get a federal job if someone in the hiring organization knows you and wants you to get it.
this!
i am at a federal agency and have just been asked to train a person that is *applying* for a job in my office. the vacancy hasn’t even closed yet on usajobs. they want me to train the candidate so that he/she can claim specialized experience. i have a real problem with this, but am not sure who to report it to?
You just need to have passed a bar to work as an attorney for the federal government, it need not be the same jurisdiction in which you practice.
There are a bunch of exceptions for posting jobs on USAjobs and a lot of agencies use them. These jobs tend to go to people who have left the agency and want to return (i.e. former interns).
I have never heard of a federal agency hiring through a local law school or bar organization. When a job goes outside the usual listing process, it is usually because the need is immediate and the agency already has identified who it wants to hire (again, someone who worked at the agency previously, or rarely, a acquaintance of a current employee who is a good match). Also, I got my government job through USAjobs as did most of my colleagues.
Do you know someone in the northern Virginia office you want to work in? I would suggest first going via your contacts there, in order to find out about unannounced vacancies and so they know that you’re interested and will have you in mind.
Thank you (plural) for the advice.
I LOVE these! But that is probably because I have a skinny jeans from Target in this same color. But I have to be in the right mood to wear them and recently I had a woman on the street give me a funny look in them (looked at my pants and kind of made a face) which has made me more self-conscious (even though her look could have been about anything!). But I’ve also had compliments in them so I need to remember that part . . . and I agree with Kat they can be toned down with black and gray or I’ve paired them with a yellow shirt layered under a navy striped sweater and once I even wore orange ballet flats with them. Of course, mine are super casual so I can be a little bit more bold than I would at the office.
I must have those same jeans from Target. I love them! Don’t let that crazy lady scare you off.
That woman is lame. Your blue skinny pants are amazing.
Ha! Thanks ladies! I think I need to pull them out again this weekend and remind myself how awesome they are :)
H has been talking about getting an electric smoker for a few months and I want to get him one for his birthday… but I don’t have any clue where to begin. Does anyone have one? What is a good size, price range, brand, etc.?
I got this one for my brother for Christmas for $100. He specifically asked for it: http://www.cuisinetechnology.com/the-smoking-gun.php
No idea if it’s any good or not; he’s the one who did the research and just sent me the link to purchase.
Hmmm. I haven’t ever seen anything quite like that before. I didn’t know they made handheld versions. I will have to check into that because I would rather get him something like that, instead of something the size of a mini fridge.
This website seems to have some helpful reviews:
http://www.amazingribs.com/BBQ_buyers_guide/smokers/electric_smokers.html
Thanks for the link! I will check it out and see if I can make a more informed decision.
Question about Outlook and vent- is there a way to set it up so someone is *always* automatically cc’d on every email you send? My pedantic boss wants me to read his mind and know what issues a certain coworker is supposed to be copied on, and Bossman has kittens if he decides I should have cc’d Coworker on something but didn’t. (most recent example: an email from me to Bossman relaying that I had called someone and that someone would like to talk to Bossman further about xyz). (Bossman also refuses after multiple requests to give me clear guidance on what Coworker needs to be looped in on). So I chatted with Coworker and he agreed that I could just cc him on every single email I send, if i can figure out a way to set that up in Outlook.
I’m not sure if you can set this up automatically; check the help section of your version of outlook (or call your IT person). But keep in mind that this will be workable only if you NEVER use your work e-mail for personal messages.
You can do this through “Rules and Alerts” in Outlook (in 2010, it’s in the Options tab).
Select create a rule for “sent” emails, and then just pick your conditions. Your IT department should be able to do this in about 30 seconds (speaking as the IT department…)
You can create a form (Tools menu, select Forms, select Design a Form) with the value in the cc field set to Coworker’s email address. Then, when you send an email, you’ll have to select this form to use — you can probably then set that form as your default message form, but I can’t find where you do that.
the above sound like good solutions.
i just wanted to chime in that being cc’d on every single email that someone sends would drive me crazy, and kind of amazed that you’d need to do that – Bossman must be a nut. wow.
You can also set up an outlook distribution list with just the 2 of them and use that when you email the boss (although coworker will be a To and not a CC i think).
Help! I am a new lawyer at a small firm and shortly after I started, the firm also decided to hire another young lawyer: the daughter of one of the partners. I don’t know how long this had been planned for, but I sort of think they would never have hired me if they had known at the time that she would be joining us too. I am concerned that there isn’t enough work for both of us, and I’d really like to know if the firm plans to keep us both around or whether I’ll be on my way out soon if work doesn’t pick up. Part of me thinks they wouldn’t hire her if they couldn’t afford to keep both of us, but logically it’s obvious that they would keep her over me if it came down to it! Can I realistically ask one of the partners about my job security, or do I just need to try to relax and bide my time?
For now, I would try to be proactive, get as much experience as you can on the different matters you work on, ask for work, etc. I don’t think asking whether the partners plan to keep both of you on is going to change much (this doesn’t seem to be a Good Wife-style competition where you know only one associate will make it out), and as someone who also works for a small (very small) firm, it seems to me that firms this size don’t hire if they don’t have the work available.
Agreed. Don’t ask a partner about your job security; focus on developing your skills. Also, consider getting involved in local networking groups, especially if there are any in your desired practice area. And be really involved – do some work on committees, or volunteer to present information. That way, if your fears come true and they fire you to keep her, you’ll have already met (and hopefully impressed) partners at other firms who will want to hire you. Hang in there!
I agree–don’t ask. Just get the best experience you can and start networking to put yourself in the best position possible to move on if it becomes necessary or desirable. I am a long time member of a firm which hired several relatives of my partners years after I became a member. I think you are fooling yourself to think that you will ever be treated the same as family. It simply.will.not.happen.
In a small firm, where profits are split and there are only so many pieces of “pie” to go around, eventually you are going to be pitted against family and, most likely, you are not going to come out ahead in that battle.
I hate to sound so negative, but you will be best served if you realize you are now at a disadvantage. This does not mean that they will fire you now or ever, but from seeing many firms in similar situations, it probably means you will not be treated in a way you think is 100 percent fair. Staying there long-term is probably not going to be in your best interest, even if the firm wants you to stay. Set a goal as to when you would prefer to leave, next year, or five years out, whatever makes sense, and move towards that. Good luck.
I second that $65K for 40 hours is actually pretty good. When I started at my small firm out of law school, i made 60K for about 55 hours a week. I still work about the same hours, but my salary has doubled in that time. I wouldn’t mind making less money and working fewer hours, though. It may be that you just need to move into small law and prove your worth, and the salary will increase. Not that this is the case for you and I don’t know what your experience level is, but in many cases new associates at big law don’t really have the skills or experience to justify those inflated salaries in “real world” working conditions.
Shoot, that was supposed to be a reply to Anon 78
Threadjack: Does anyone have the Kate Spade Quilted Ellen cross body bag? If so, does it fit an iPad 2? I’m debating buying it (yay, sale!) and that’s the only question I have about it. Thanks!
TJ: Anyone in the Hartford, CT area that can recommend a dermatologist? TIA!!
I’ve heard good things about Hartford Dermatology Associates in the Blue Back Square area of West Hartford. Never been myself though, so ymmv.
Thanks!
ladies, any recommendations for movers in the arlington/dc area? i am moving apartments within my building and just need help for a couple hours to move the big stuff (bed, couch).
thanks!
YES – Suburban Solutions. They were really reasonably priced, finished in the right amount of time, and were just genuinely nice guys. Totally reliable. I’ve been meaning to review them on yelp, but haven’t gotten that far.
Yes– my truck buddy! I used them last summer and they were awesome. Really friendly, nice, normal guys that I felt totally comfortable riding in the cab with between apartments. They were very easy to schedule as well.
YES!!! Rapport Relocations. Kenny is amazing and wonderful and hands down one of the best movers I’ve ever used. He is always on time, super fair about pricing, and really careful. The thing I love about him is that he will explain what is and isn’t included. He’s also just a good guy who takes care of people. For example, we got caught in AWFUL traffic during one of our moves (I’ve used them 4 times by the way) and were about 1 hour behind. Didn’t charge us for that hour. Just like that. Didn’t think it was right (accident o 95, shocker). Email: raprelo@gmail.com Tele: 703.595.7564
Ditto on my truck buddy! Check out yelp for their amazing reviews.
Question for you grammar-loving ladies – in sentences, do you prefer “law clerk to the Honorable Judge So-and-so…” or “law clerk for the Honorable Judge So-and-so…”
I think both are correct.
I’m not sure what is strictly correct, but as a former clerk to a federal judge, law clerk TO somehow sounds right to me.
I thought if you were saying Honorable, you don’t also need Judge. So “law clerk to the Honorable Jane Smith, U.S. District Court.”
Oh, I agree. I thought her question was whether she should say for or to, but you’re right that “honorable judge” is redundant.
Am I the only one who saw Ultimate Double Weave Communist Pant?
Fortunately, I’m ordering new glasses today. Wish you were all here to help me pick out my frames! I’m going tortoiseshell nerdy.
Nope, not the only one.
Yay for tortoiseshell! I wore a beloved pair of tortoiseshell glasses all through college, but alas, they got a little too bent up, so they’ve been retired. My current frames are great, and I love them…but I miss having tortoiseshell on my face every day.
The communist pants would be the ones in red.
Mr. Gorbachev, tear down these pants!
oh, I needed a giggle.
Still getting stack overflow message (11:18 a.m. PST).
just received stack overflow message (2:30 pm EST)
So for all of you that have been embarrassed about crying at work, I think I take the cake. This morning after oral argument in court, my eyes welled up with tears and my voice cracked. I then excused myself and hid in the bathroom for a long time. I thought long enough that all parties would be gone. I was wrong. After I had been crying (silently) in the bathroom from the sheer embarrassment, I managed to compose myself and make my way out. Well, an attorney stayed behind and tried to talk to me and console me, which only made me tear up again!!! And, this time an actual tear came down. I am absolutely mortified!!! FWIW, I am super emotional right now since I just put in my resignation at my firm yesterday and am starting a new job shortly. I have been at my firm for multiple years and while I want to go and am looking very much forward to my new job that will put me on my dream track job, I was just flooded with emotion. Hive: What do I do now? Do, I reach out to the attorney that tried to console me and apologize for my behavior? I feel like the biggest idiot in the world!!!
BTW the oral argument was according to the Partner supposed to go very smoothly and in our favor. None of this happened. Instead, it took a turn for the worst and now I will have to explain to my client and the Partner how this happened. It was nothing I did, I assure you. However, that does not really matter.
I bet it didn’t go as bad as you think. I’ve observed a few oral arguments where the judges agree with our side but ask a bunch of hard, argumentative questions to play devil’s advocate, and get more information to put in their opinions. I’ve seen many a question asked that was so unrelated it didn’t even make it into the opinion.
As far as the other attorney, I’d say nothing now, and when you get settled at your new job, send a note that says “just want to inform you I have moved from x job to y job. I was going to tell you this when I saw you at x oral argument but it wasn’t yet public knowledge. While I am happy for the change, it was still very hard to leave my last job, as you observed.”
You poor thing. Please try to remember that you’re only human. I don’t think you owe the attorney who tried to console you an apology. Just try to put it behind you – and be glad that you’re a normal person who has emotions and cares about your work! Best of luck with the transition to your new job.
An attorney who would try to console you after a bad experience in court is obviously a sensitive enough person that I would not worry about an apology. I agree with the suggestion to write him a note, now or later, thanking him for his concern and humanity and leave it at that.
Also, all of us who have been practicing for very long have had absolutely miserable experiences in court, and I bet many of us have cried afterwards. I know I have. Forget it. Chalk it up to experience. Judges are just human. Sometimes they get off on the most irrelevant, flat out dumb tangents, that are totally impossible to predict. Unfortunately, you cannot tell them that, so you are stuck trying to get them back on track in the most respectful way possible. It happens. We win some we should not and we lose some we should not. Your partner will understand this.
In a few years you will laugh about this one horrible day. Good luck with your new position. You are going to be fine!
New Yorker/Atlantic/Esquire/Economist and the like fans, you really need to check out http://longform.org/. Longform posts the best new and classic non-fiction long form articles from all kinds of magazines. It is the greatest thing ever. EVER!
And somehow i managed to comment not just in the wrong place, but on entirely the wrong post! Oops
Wow, Kat, you’re right, that jacket is horrible. It’s like: is it double breasted, or did I just stick on extra buttons right over my —– … what were they thinking?
http://www.express.com/ultimate-double-weave-hourglass-jacket-39117-701/index.pro
I like the cut of the jacket, I’d just rip off the buttons. I love this color blue. It does a really good job of distracting my coworkers from the shame I occasionally sport at the office.
Love the pants, but hate the fashion jargon of calling pants/trousers “a pant.”. When I see “pant”, I think of dogs panting after they’ve been running around a lot.
Anyone know of a good website with free samples of trial motions (criminal, specifically)?
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