Ooh, Nordstrom has a lot of great deals on tote bags. I’m not usually a fan of orange, but I think this bright leather tote from Tory Burch would look amazing, particularly if you’re the kind of person who has a navy base to your wardrobe. It’s interesting and fun, but not too crazy. Love! It was $348 but is now marked to $233 (33% off).
Other totes of note (sorry, had to) include Dagne Dover, which I don’t think I’ve ever seen on sale, a great classic tote from Tumi with travel sleeves for rollerbags, and a ton of nice Briggs totes (some with water-resistant properties, lots with travel sleeves). I’m trying to talk myself out of this cobalt blue Frame tote marked 60% off (actually, lots of colors). If you’ve got Early Access, this Tumi tote is down to $59 and has a travel sleeve.
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Workwear sales of note for 6.02.23:
- Nordstrom – The Half-Yearly Sale has started! See our thoughts here.
- Ann Taylor – $50 off $150; $100 off $250+; extra 30% off all sale styles
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 25% off purchase
- Boden – Sale, up to 50% off
- Cole Haan – Up to 50% off select styles; extra 20% off sandals & sneakers
- Eloquii – 60% off all tops
- Express – 30% off all dresses, tops, shorts & more; extra 50% off clearance
- H&M – Up to 60% off online and in-store.
- J.Crew – Up to 50% off “dressed up” styles (lots of cute dresses!); extra 50% off select sale
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything; 60% off 100s of summer faves; extra 60% off clearance
- J.McLaughlin – The Sale Event: extra 30% off
- Loft – 40% off tops; 30% off full-price styles
- Sephora – Up to 50% off select beauty.
- Shopbop – Up to 60% off sale
- Sue Sartor – Lots of cute dresses on sale!
- Talbots – 25-40% off select styles
Other noteworthy sales:
- CB2.com – Up to 40% off; pop-up sale up to 30% off
- Joss & Main – Up to 60% off, plus an extra 20% off with code
- Tuft & Needle – Save up to $775 on mattresses (Reader-favorite brand; Kat really likes hers!)
- West Elm – Up to 25% off in-stock furniture; up to 60% off clearance
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Can I ask what might be a kind of dumb COVID question? I’ve been seeing a ton of ranting on social media about how people aren’t wearing masks at restaurants when they’re not eating or drinking, and I’m kind of confused (and maybe I’m doing something wrong here, but when am I not eating/drinking in a restaurant? I generally will order cocktails/wine and a full meal (app, entree, dessert, etc) – I don’t go out to eat a ton, and with the restaurant industry where it is, I kind of view it as – if I’m taking up a table, I should be eating. I only explain that to ask – when am I supposed to be wearing a mask when I’m sitting down? When I initially order/the server comes to the table, sure, but…when else? I’m just confused? People are complaining about walking by outdoor restaurants and seeing people not in masks and I can’t help but wonder if I’m doing something wrong?
I think it’s kind of obvious that not everyone orders that much food and drink. If you just order one course you frequently sit at your table for 20-30 minutes waiting for the food to show up, and then you wait for a while afterwards for the server to come clear your plates and bring the bill, and then you wait some more while the server runs your credit card. Even if you order multiple courses, there is time between courses. I have never been at a restaurant and been eating for every minute I was sitting down.
But you drink water a lot, yes?
I drink while I’m eating. I don’t sit at a table chugging water while I’m waiting for my food to show up.
Yeah, or I’m drinking my wine/cocktail? I get if you’re not drinking at a meal how you’d have more time, but I generally find the turnaround is way faster than 20-30 minutes these days too (I assume they want to turn the tables quickly). I try to leave ASAP as soon as I pay/finish my food + beverages so they can get more people in too.
When I eat out lately, it has been outside, so I NEVER wear a mask as long as I am sitting out there with my freinds. It is only when I leave the restrunt that I put on a mask. No one in the restruants have ever told me to put a mask on between courses. FOOEY!
Technically you’re supposed to wear them the whole time that you’re NOT eating — so entering, ordering, waiting for the food, waiting for the check, paying, and leaving. Not that it matters to me. You couldn’t pay me to step foot inside a restaurant unless I get it in my head that I want takeout from some place without curb side, which I haven’t yet as there are enough curb side options.
I have no idea because I would not even consider eating a meal inside a restaurant. We either do take out or a patio in which social distancing is both possible and enforced.
Good work quarantining better than anyone! Congrats! You get a prize…oh wait…
@anon at 4:18, the prize is good health
Good work not even trying! The prize is a longer shutdown. I’m not going to be surprised when there’s a bunch of “I need to stop drinking so much” and “I can’t take this any more” posts once winter hits. Keep on socializing the summer away though.
The OP actually mentions that it’s outdoor dining in her last sentence, which if that isn’t what you mean by “patio and social distancing” I have no idea what distinction you’re trying to make here.
Or do you not wear a mask at all when outdoor dining? In which case, the self-congratulatory tone is really uncalled for.
I literally said outdoor dining. Good lord – next time I’ll see if I can bold and underline that fact or for fear of the sanctimonious posters jumping all over me. I asked a question to clarify if there was something I’m doing wrong and I get this kind of stuff.
To be honest, I’m getting close to just calling it quits with this board – no one can ask a question about doing anything without getting jumped all over for not being good enough at COVID-ing.
Why did you even post this question? Because you’d never experienced waiting for a meal to arrive or taking time to decide what to get or milling about waiting for the table to be ready? Great job tr011ing.
I think your mask is only supposed to be off when you were literally drinking or eating. All those pauses between water sips, you have it on. It’s a pain in the ass, which is why it’s stupid that people are pushing to open restaurants
That makes no sense to me – the CDC tells you to not take/on off your mask constantly as it’s more likely to spread germs… Y’all also clearly drink more slowly than I do if you’re putting it on between bites.
Yeah, if you are just with a member of your household, htere is no point to wear it in between sips. You’re by yourselves.
What makes no sense is opening restaurants when it clearly can’t be done safely since masks can’t be worn properly there.
I wear my mask until I order and then take it off after my drinks are delivered. I then put it back on whenever I see a server approaching me and try to keep my eyes open for them. (And in the restaurant I most often go to they will pause to catch my eye before coming close.) Otherwise I am not wearing it while I am seated because it is silly to take it on and off every time I want a sip of my wine or water. If I get up for any reason I put it back on.
And that is the process the little card at the table asks us to follow (wear mask until drinks delivered, put back on when server approaches or when getting up from table).
This is what I do/see most folks doing, so I was trying to understand what the complaint was! This is what I thought we were supposed to do.
Some people will never be satisfied, will always complain and will try to “out-quarantine” anyone. It’s just not worth engaging.
This whole “people just want to out-quarantine others” narrative you’ve invented for yourself is so tiring. We’re allowed to comment that there should be no in-restaurant dining right now. We’re allowed to review the evidence and determine that as a society, opening indoor dining and bars is not compatible with controlling the epidemic. We’re allowed to be frustrated that the voluntary, frivolous actions of others could harm us, even when we do our best to protect ourselves. This is not out of a desire to “prove” something to you – but if it did come down to proof, the evidence is not on your side.
To the anon @3:57 – I’m the OP and I LITERALLY SAID OUTDOOR DINING. In my area indoor dining is partially re-opening, but with the amount of seating outdoors, I don’t think I’ve ever sat indoors yet.
“I’m kind of confused (and maybe I’m doing something wrong here, but when am I not eating/drinking in a restaurant?”
Excuse me for thinking “in a restaurant” implied indoor dining. You clearly came here to stir the pot and you succeeded, so congrats.
Anon, OP literally said outdoor dining if you had bothered to read the post.
We recently had an outdoor restaurant meal for the first time. We were at least 10 feet from the nearest table. We kept an eye out for staff and did our best to re-mask when speaking with them, but did not play the “on off” dance while slowly sipping water and drinks between courses.
We put them on when getting up from the table (for restroom and for leaving).
this is how we’ve done it, the few times we’ve dined out (always outside). I was a little surprised that both restaurants we went to still had waitstaff stop by quite often with the ‘how is everything?’. I normally appreciate attentive service, but I thought they would decrease the number of interactions a little in these times.
I felt like the “patio dining” part of this was implied since inside dining is not allowed in my state and because the OP specifically asked about outside dining.
Please can we all just stop with the assumptions? It is exhausting to have to start every post with we were outside/ masked/ distanced/ on Zoom/ with only member of our household/ in our own city and not traveling to a rural area with no healthcare facilities/ visiting elderly relatives but staying on the other side of the driveway and not going in their houses.
In my state and the next one over the requirement is that you wear your mask until you are at your table. So that is what most people do. We have exceptionally low transmission rates for the USA though.
Paging Vicky A and others who have mastered this – how do you underpromise and overdeliver? I do employment law but know many jobs and types of law have emergencies – I’m struggling!!
Example: Monday morning, Client asks for not urgent project X. X usually takes me 2 billable hours. I look at my week and say I’ll get X them by Thursday afternoon. Tuesday morning I get a call from another client – OSHA fatality, I need to go to their worksite that day for the inspection. Assistant bumps all meetings to after 5 pm or later that week. I handle court deadlines and then look at my list and often realize, Wednesday at 10 pm, that I haven’t done X yet. I either stay up and do X, or plan to do it the next morning and risk another emergency or sr partner direction.
I feel like I constantly repeat a cycle – tell Client that I need more time to do X (and the other clients in this situation), which isn’t fair because Client actually planned ahead. I used to block time on my calendar to try to protect time, but with COVID things are coming too fast for me …resulting in overpromising. How can I improve? I’ve tried asking for support within my firm but no luck thus far – open to suggested ways to ask, too!
Well, I wouldn’t say I’ve mastered it necessarily! But it sounds like you’re really getting slammed right now. I think of underpromising as insurance and overdelivering as a bonus. If you end up having to regular-deliver because of an emergency (which sounds fairly common in your line of work), at least your delivery and your promises matched. In your shoes, I’d also worry that I was being unfair to my clients who planned ahead, but again, that sounds unavoidable for you. So I would make sure to be open and clear with all clients about the possibility of emergencies arising, and give yourself permission to not feel guilty when they do.
So do you have lots of emergencies that will come up and delay the non-emergency work?
I used to tell clients “2 weeks” for turnaround. Then we added associates and now it takes longer since they are drafting and then I have to review. So now I tell them a month and if we get it to them before that (which we frequently do), bonus. For your example, I would tell the first client you’ll get it to them “by next week” and basically stretch out the timeline for all your non-emergency cases, so that when they get bumped by the emergency stuff you’re not running up against your self-imposed deadline.
I think Diana has it right. If Client A calls and you promise Thursday and it gets bumped, you’re in trouble. If you promise “Next week” and your week goes to hell, you can get to it on the weekend or Monday first thing. If Client A pushes back and says “next week won’t cut it”, then you say “How about Wednesday? Or Monday?”
And I think if the partner pushes work to you that will bump your promise to Client A, then gently push back to partner, saying “If I do this emergency for your Client B, then my deliverable to Client A will be late. Is that what you want or could I finish Client A first?”
I got used to building in extra time for deliverables when I worked for a workaholic jerk who wanted everything faster. So if something was due on Friday, on Wednesday he’d ask why it wasn’t done yet. So I started pushing back deliverables to Monday instead of Friday and then I could get it done by Thursday or Friday and be early. Still sucked but easier on my nerves.
Also in employment law and will often tell clients with non-urgent issues that I will get X to them “by end of month” or “in the next couple weeks” which is a non-specific, but reasonable time frame that allows me some flexibility.
Start planning your week assuming you’ll have an emergency. Say to Client “does early next week work for you” rather than saying Thursday pm.
As a client, if something actually isn’t needed for a week, I’m delighted to get it faster but if you’d told me upfront “does next week work” I would have said fine. I’d hate to know you were up at all hours to meet an ultimately fake, self imposed deadline.
Has anyone started thinking about how they will handle Thanksgiving this year? I know it’s almost four months away still (and a lot will change in those four months) but Thanksgiving is my holiday and starting to rough out a plan gives me some small sense of control. I’m in New England, so our Thanksgiving weather could be 70 degrees, could be 15 degrees with a foot of fresh snow or anything in between. I’m thinking about celebrating Canadian Thanksgiving this year to remove the snow risk from the equation, so that an outdoor meal would be more practical. I can’t imagine gathering family together for an indoors meal so I’m not sure how celebrating in November would work – maybe hope for warm enough weather to eat outside by the fire pit? It will of course be a much smaller gathering than normal, I assume it will be limited to in state, immediate family only. Has anyone else started brainstorming and have ideas about how you’ll adjust your celebrations? Are you just emotionally preparing for Thanksgiving via Zoom?
My family typically meets up in a town on the Central Coast of California (people come from LA and SF in addition to a few out-of-staters), but I don’t think it’s going to happen this year for me. I’m not sure if it will be held at all, but since I’m high-risk, our pandemic is out of control, and it’s typically a lot of “together” time, I don’t think I can chance it if it does go forward. Some of my family members don’t take social distancing seriously and I can’t trust that I won’t get sick if I’m around them. It’s too bad, but a Thanksgiving at home sounds fine to me too. My husband would prefer it anyway.
I can’t even begin to think that far ahead. I suspect we’ll be bagging a big thanksgiving though this year in favor of something small with my immediate family at home.
I can’t think about it. It makes me too sad. Thanksgiving is by far my favorite holiday and we almost always spend it with my parents. But my young child is in daycare, and I just don’t think it’s safe for us to visit with my elderly parents without a two week quarantine first, which we can’t do at Thanksgiving (we plan to do it December when daycare is already closed for a couple weeks). I suppose there is some very small chance we will have more widely available rapid testing by November and we could get tested and then safely visit, but I’m not holding out a lot of hope. Man, I hope 2021 is better.
My plan is to just skip it and probably take a road trip with my husband if such a thing is possible.
I will have thanksgiving with just the family I currently live with and call it a day.
This. I’ll probably order most of the food from a local restaurant that does amazing pre-made turkey dinners and bake the rolls and a crazy complicated dessert with my teen daughter.
I haven’t thought too hard about it, but I kind assume this is what we’ll do too.
My fingers are crossed that I can take a trip out to California to see family in November, but as a lonely single person living alone, I’m also emotionally preparing for 4 days of extreme loneliness and lots of wine. Or if there is a lot of work, I will just work and try to not cry and hate that other people can actually be with their families. I hate this pandemic.
Similar. I may drive up from DC to my mom’s house in Central PA but that depends on what’s happening at the time, pandemic wise. Luckily (I guess), any family I would go to see is within driving distance so I can make some last minute decisions if I have to.
Nope. I have no idea what November will be like.
I’m pregnant and due early October, and we have no local family, so we’re planning on solo Thanksgiving and solo Christmas at home with our little one. If my parents wanted to visit for either holiday, that would be fine (they’re going to quarantine at home for a strict 2 weeks around baby’s due date so that they can come visit us once the 2 weeks is up and we’re ready for them, which means a 10 hour one-day drive for them but they’re game and retired and totally trustworthy to actually do a strict quarantine). My siblings are all a flight-distance, as are in-laws and husband’s siblings, so I don’t think we’ll see any of them for a very long time, unfortunately. That is not going to go over well with my MIL.
We’ll ask all family who wants to come for Thanksgiving to do a 2-week hard quarantine before they come – no going to the store, no seeing anyone, etc. Probably we’ll only get my parents here, which is fine.
I’m also in New England. Haven’t thought much of it but I expect we’ll stick with our current “germ circle” family for all the holidays, which is just my parents, siblings and families – 12 people, which in includes 4 toddlers/infants.
Here’s the real burning question – is Halloween cancelled?! Obviously it must be… right? Right. Right?!?
I think normal trick or treating definitely won’t happen, but I’ve heard people talking about socially distanced trick-or-treating, like leaving platters of candy out for kids. I expect daycares and schools to make a bigger deal of it than normal and encourage kids to wear costumes during school and stuff like that. I can see people having parties with friends/classmates who are already in their bubble. Tl;dr I don’t expect normal trick or treating but I hope there will be some opportunity for kids to wear costumes and get excited about the holiday.
Gail the Goldfish
I mean, trick or treating may be cancelled, but there will be decorations and costumes at my house even if the only things I see are my husband and my cats. (I deeply love Halloween) But yea, I assume normal trick or treating will be cancelled.
Is normal trick-or-treating that risky? I consider myself very risk averse when it comes to COVID, but I don’t think trick-or-treating seems that bad. You’re outside, you ring someone’s doorbell, you’re fairly far away from them, and you’re gone in about a minute. My kid’s school defines “close contact” with someone with respect to COVID exposure as closer than 6 feet apart, for longer than 15 minutes, without masks. In that sense, trick-or-treating seems fine…
I plan on taking my kids outdoors in costume, walking them around the neighborhood, and giving them candy to put in their bags every 10 feet or so. YMMV.
I am guessing we will either (1) have a small gathering with one set of parents or one set of parents and one sibling, (2) have Thanksgiving only with the people I live with at home, or (3) the family I live with and I will go on a trip to do something that seems safe. If school is closed that could mean isolating at my parents’ winter home in FL (which they won’t be at yet) or skiing.
I can’t imagine a large family gathering with anyone.
My boyfriend and I have discussed it casually. We both want to visit our parents, since neither of us has bene home since last year because they all live a 10+ hour drive away. Our current plan is that we will self-quarantine for 2 weeks and then drive to his parents for Thanksgiving. It will be a long day of driving, with our only stops being for gas and maybe a drive-thru restaurant. We plan to spend a week at his parents before driving home, and think it will be relatively safe given the self-quarantining since it will just be his parents, us, and his brother. We then plan to do the same thing to visit my parents for Christmas.
I started thinking about it. Back in March, we rescheduled a big, 10-year anniversary trip to Hawaii from May to November, including Thanksgiving. I wasn’t super hopeful back then, but the airlines were only giving credit through the end of 2020, time share points had to be used by spring, and the rest was refundable. Anyways, that trip is obviously not happening in November, and airline and time share policies have changed, but I have vacation scheduled for the week before Thanksgiving and the week of Thanksgiving. I’ll probably just take the week of Thanksgiving off and take off more time around Christmas. (My vacation is use it or lose it.) My kid is also supposed to be out of school the whole week, but who knows what the school schedule will look like.
We live in the same city as DH’s parents, who are divorced and remarried, and lots of siblings and step-siblings and their spouses and kids. We typically go to 2 large get-togethers on Thanksgiving and the day after, but I’m sure neither will happen this year.
So… do we get a cabin in the woods somewhere within driving distance? Do we stay home and cook something/order out for the 2 of us and our picky kid who won’t eat it anyways? Do we ask my parents to quarantine and invite them to stay with us, or go visit them? We haven’t decided anything yet.
I live in New England. My in-laws live in rural South Carolina. They have been getting all of their groceries delivered except for a once/month Costco run. They live on a lake and basically never leave their house. We are doing Thanksgiving at their house. We are going to drive (with our dogs) and either drive straight through (it is 17 hours and we have done it before taking turns driving) or we will do an overnight in a non-tourist area at a random Hampton Inn. We will pack all of our food for the day or 2 days in a Yeti cooler. We will spend the week at the in-laws and then do the same thing coming back. Even if SC is a hot spot, that would be very low risk. We’d only stop for bathroom breaks (and I have no problem peeing in the woods instead of a gas station) and to fill up on gas where we can wear gloves and mask and use lots of hand sanitizer. We usually only need gas twice each way.
One more thought on bathroom breaks for those who do drive, hotel bathrooms are often cleaner than gas station bathrooms and the lobbies have automatic doors.
I’m in a major Covid funk right now and I can feel myself getting emotional – waves of apathy, lack of motivation, etc. I don’t have any mental health diagnoses or safety concerns, but it stinks feeling like this. I plan to clean up my apartment this weekend, get some sleep, and go for a couple walks. Has anyone found any good techniques or articles for either embracing the suck or getting out of the funk? I’m open to reading pre Covid stuff too.
I’m with you – “waves of apathy and lack of motivation” are me to a tee lately! I feel like I’m depressed, but I also kinda feel like the circumstances are sad and depressing and warrant being sad over, so I don’t think I need to seek help for it or anything. I don’t have very much advice, but I’ve found that my “ups” usually come when I’m focusing my mind on something creative, like watercoloring, attempting to do some creative writing, or journaling. I find if I do these things in the evenings, I’ll usually perk up a bit and go to bed feeling content, if not happy. Other than that, I’ve just been trying to embrace the sadness and letting myself feel it, but I don’t know how sustainable that is long-term. Hugs to you! (Also following for other advice.)
Does anyone else know a couple who should not work on paper but totally work in real life? I am seriously re-thinking my criteria for dating.
I had (socially distanced – please do not turn this into a Covid-shaming thread) drinks with an old friend recently. She has an advanced degree; her husband graduated from high school and spend two years in college before leaving for a job. She loves to read and is honestly one of the smartest people I know with interests in a lot of arcane subjects. He loves sports (watching and playing), video games, and his dogs. If he has an original thought about anything except sports I have never heard him express it. She is really politically engaged; he asks her how he should vote (and then does it). They went on vacation last summer to a cabin on a lake and she spent her free time reading while he fished and played golf every day (although to his credit he often took their oldest kid with him and spent his fair share of time entertaining the younger one).
I personally find trying to talk to him a chore. But their relationship totally works. They play tennis a couple of times a week when he is not traveling for work. She likes to cook so (in normal times) she loves it when he invites all of his friends over for game night or video game tournaments and she can cook for them all. He says she is the smartest person he has ever met and how much he loves listening to her talk. They completely adore each other after a decade of marriage. He just left for work for 1-3 months and she was talking about how much she will miss having him around – and his mother lives with them to help with their kids so it is not the practical help she is missing.
I went to their wedding and was secretly what she was thinking. Some of his friends thought she was marrying him for his money. And yet 10 years later, they are one of the happiest couples I know.
So thoughts? I know so many couples with a lot in common who do not work and am trying to identify the magic ingredient.
I know somebody who is a professor of psychology and his research indicates that the most important ingredient in marriages/relationships is, and I quote, “the quality of the friendship between the partners.”
I’m on my third marriage and blissfully happy this time, and I think he’s on to something. To me some of the details include:
Accepting each other as you are (“people are not improvement projects”)
Relatedly, putting your ego aside and not requiring a “trophy spouse”
Presuming good intentions
Playing doubles on the same team and not singles against each other (“Team Us”)
Feeling good about yourself already and not depending on your partner to prop you up
And on the flip side, not taking on your partner’s “stuff” and trusting them to deal with it rather than trying to fix everything
I think having too much in common can absolutely be a detriment – you need your own identity and everyone needs at least a little space (some people much more). Your friend and her husband sound adorable. My best guess at the magic ingredient is “He says she is the smartest person he has ever met and how much he loves listening to her talk.” I think that’s a huge deal right there.
Oh, and there was some noise from family friends when I wanted to introduce them to my now-husband that I was settling (we weren’t engaged, but everybody knew we were serious). Family friends valued my family’s appreciation of music, learning languages, etc., and were appalled that my husband only spoke English and did not play any instruments. I never had to give it, but I had my speech all prepared about how kind and considerate and steady and calm he was and how that came first in my mind. And guess what I still love most about him now that he’s on level 10 of French Duolingo?
That is a HUGE deal! My first two husbands were always telling me I was too big for the room (too smart, talked to much) and the current Mr. Senior Attorney says it’s a feature, not a bug, and I just needed a bigger room!
Yes!! Bigger room – LOVE that!
Yes to Senior Attorney and Vicky Austin!! My husband tells me (and other people) that I’m the smartest person he’s met, and while it’s pretty embarrassing because that’s just weird and not quite true, I think that this is a big reason that we work! I also had an ex(boyfriend) who thought I was too big for the room – too loud, talked too much, knew too much, had too many opinions (I do ::shrug::). And when I wanted to move for a job, asked me “what about [his] career?” He was, and still is 10 years later, a bartender; he just wanted to minimize me.
Yes, this. In my youth I thought that being 1/2 of a “power couple” was what I wanted. I’m a Type A ambitious person and sought out men who also fit that bill. It didn’t work so great, lots of competition, feeling as though I had to compensate if I was “better” at something so he could still feel big, etc. I can’t even imagine what a marriage or having kids would have been with those men.
Luckily I met a guy who didn’t check any of the “power couple” boxes I was so focused on but I had just gotten out of a relationship and he was cute and made me laugh so I figured why not go on a date or two. Ten years later we’re happily married with two kids, he’s still cute, he still makes me laugh, he makes me a kinder/nicer/more patient/more fun person and gives me the support I need to really lean into my big job while also raising a family. My advice, get rid of the paper qualifications.
It’s hard not to take your comment as snobby, honestly. But lots of us, me included, didn’t have a spark with people who should have worked for us on paper, and then did have a spark with people who didn’t. I’m 20 years married to a man who has less education than me, has always earned less than I do. But despite any faults he has, and I have plenty of my own, I love him. And he’s an absolutely great dad.
At the end of the day, it’s not really any of your business. Your friend is apparently happily married. More power to her.
To be really clear they 100% work and I am really happy for her. She had a rough childhood so to see her so happy and loved and supported is wonderful. This is not me questioning their relationship. This is (single) me wondering what I should be looking for in my own. Looking back at my own dating history, I feel like I have wasted a lot of time on people who looked good on paper, checked my imaginary boxes and just did not work.
Interesting. I saw a little bit of myself in your OP. I usually date highly intelligent, extremely talkative, quick-witted ambitious men that engage me intellectually and consider thinking for the fun of it to be a worthwhile past time. The guy I’m currently dating sounds like your friend’s husband (except that I think my guy has a more going on intellectually just based on your description. He has original thoughts). I sometimes wonder if my guy is the right intellectual match for me (less so whether he is intelligent “enough,” and more whether our degrees of interest in engaging in cerebral topics v. other things is a match), but I have to say that this is one of the most happy and stable relationships I’ve ever been in. He’s a wonderful partner with tons of emotional intelligence, incredibly good with emotional labor, fun, sweet, caring, silly, loving, reliable, etc. I grew up in a household where love and validation was linked to achievement and intelligence and using your big brain to impress and engage and amuse people. My parents were emotionally absent except for when I was being praised for achievement or shamed for failure. It’s easy for me to slide into professional/intellectual mode when dating really smart guys. That’s comfortable for me, I excel at it, but I think it was leading to relationships that had incredible intellectual chemistry and a high degree of entertainment value, but we weren’t always connecting on an emotional level and building the trust necessary to sustain a long term relationship.
I enjoy being in a relationship where I am not performing for my partner. I enjoy being perceived as a whole person instead of just a witty/engaging conversationalist who they also want to garden with. (Perhaps that’s a bit cynical, but…). Plus, it turns out that all of the other qualities I listed seem to be harder for me to find in one person than raw intelligence. A partner who consistently shows up for the relationship is *awesome.* A partner who can debate the ethical nuances of American intervention in third world economies is a lot of fun and stimulating when we’re talking but the relationship is unsustainable when I don’t feel safe enough in the relationship to address an issue because he’ll withdraw, etc.
I’m writing a novel, but ultimately it’s about the bond you form with your partner and not necessarily a list of traits. Are there some traits that make it easier to form that bond? Yes. But the foundation for true connection is mutual vulnerability that leads to trust. That is not contingent on intelligence.
One of the things that works super well for my husband and me is that we have different kinds of intelligence. I’m the verbal one but he is a genius in the physical universe (was an engineer before he went to law school) and also has bucketloads of common sense. I think realizing that there are multiple kinds of intelligences is really helpful in all kinds of contexts but especially in relationships.
My ex-husband went to the same prestigious university I did and was always challenging me, which was sometimes good but we had a lot of conflict. As our marriage went on, and I got more successful and he couldn’t hold a job, the background really meant less and less. He was also an alcoholic and, I learned later, sleeping with other women on his trips. When I got divorced I was totally afraid I was going to end up with a lawyer (which I am), who was going to have a problem because I went to a schmancier law school than he did. ( I went to quite a shmancy law school.) Right after I got divorced I dated a very blue collar guy, he was lovely but had some insecurities (not related to education) and we didn’t work out. Now my boyfriend is also blue collar ish (he didn’t go to college) but he makes as much or more money than I do, he is very smart and keeps up on events and politics, and we have great conversations.He likes my career and is proud of me. He has opinions that may or may not be the same as mine but we don’t have conflict over it. I think it’s because he is successful and secure, and views himself that way. So we are not in competition. It took me a long time to see it, but my ex was not confident and secure and so everything was a competition as he was trying to make himself feel better/ seem higher. Current boyfriend is proud of himself and where he has gotten, which makes him relaxed and comfortable with himself and others — he has nothing to prove because he has already won. When I was younger I would have never dated someone without a degree, or two, and in this case I really could not have done any better. So yes, I am all for expanding your criteria. Good luck.
I get what you’re saying. As my friends have paired up and moved out of the city, I am relying more on online dating. I eliminate a lot of people immediately based on education or profession but, like you, I often wonder if I should change my approach. It’s hard to know if it’ll pay off since you don’t get to test out your chemistry/compatibility before absorbing all of this other information that definitely colors your opinion.
You say you “find trying to talk to him a chore.” So I don’t think you should rethink your dating criteria based on this particular guy. Your friend is happy with him, and you wouldn’t be.
Agreed. Great that he’s great for your friend but I wouldn’t change my criteria based on the fact that my friend is happy with a guy that you find talking to a chore. What would you even change based on this success story? You were wrong about her and what makes her happy, probably thinking you two were more similar than you actually are – do you think you’re wrong about yourself too? Nothing about this story would make me think that I don’t know what I want in a partner.
yeah, I wouldn’t worry too much about not gelling with the husband. I find some of my husband’s friends insanely boring, but I don’t sweat it. I get along great or well enough with most of them, but for some of them, talking to them is a chore. Or how many people have a great spouse, but cannot believe that spouse came from those in-laws. Isn’t that diversity what makes us a fun species?
Well I see that couple you’re judging and see two people who love and respect each other, value each other’s contributions to the world and their family, and share values. Talking about sports or liking reading are hobbies.
The “magic” ingredient is respect. No marriage works without it on either side. Maybe mutual respect is easier when both partners have similar talents, interests, and goals. It also makes their social lives easier: if everyone around them lives the same life, there is not a constant barrage of condescension. That hardly means, however, that similar talents is a necessary component of marriage; it’s just a proxy for the respect portion.
Until you’ve lived it, it is really hard to understand just how toxic disrespect (from a spouse or a spouse’s social and familial network) is to a marriage. On the flip side, I think mutual respect can carry a lot of marriages through the hard times.
This sounds like an amazing, fun, happy relationship. It seems like each partner is confident in their own skin and allows the other space to be themself. What more could you ask for?
Yes, you said the same thing I did in way fewer words!
Great description; I think you’ve identified the secret sauce!
Yes. I am in a marriage like this and so are many people I know. I understand the genesis of the perspective you are expressing; women have been fed a completely unrealistic fantasy about marriage, which is that the only way a marriage works is if you meet someone who you find attractive (and is also at the “same level” of attractiveness as you); who shares all your interests; who has the exact same political philosophies; who matches your level of career ambition/orientation; who wants exactly what you want in terms of children, pets, religion, home decorating, vacations, etc. Two perfectly matched people meet and fall in love and live happily ever after with no problems except maybe a wacky cousin who shows up unexpectedly for a two-week visit or, maybe, a meddling mother-in-law. That’s every rom-com in the book, right? Problem is, that’s all fiction. But people take it as fact.
What marriage really is (speaking as someone who has been married over two decades) is two people who have ALIGNED priorities and A FEW, SIMILAR interests deciding they can negotiate their way through the differences that emerge and make a life together. From watching many couples come together and break up over the years, what I have seen is that the couple in the above scenario, who are simply simpatico in every way, either end up getting bored with each other and someone cheats with a person who is completely unlike their spouse, or they compete with each other constantly and break up because the acrimony is too much to bear. Which I definitely get. I mean, I like myself, but what am I going to get out of being coupled with another me? I need someone who is going to challenge my perceptions, open my eyes to new perspectives, push me to do things I wouldn’t do otherwise. My husband does that for me. I do that for him. We don’t agree on everything but we mostly agree on the big stuff and most importantly, when we don’t agree on something we are willing to listen to each other. We are willing to believe that the other person’s perspective, while different from ours, still has validity and we’re willing to consider it. No offense but that’s not an attitude I see many women here exhibiting. If the women here who stridently berate anyone who expresses an opinion different from their own on this board also do that in their personal lives, it’s not really a surprise why they’re lonely, either for partnership or for friends. People who insist on being right all the time and flat-out refuse to consider that someone with a different opinion might have a valid point are exhausting, full stop. There aren’t many people willing to take that on for life. I wouldn’t do it.
There are no relationships that do or don’t work “on paper” because relationships are living, breathing, dynamic things. A person is not a list of attributes on a piece of paper, and what’s more, people change over time and the “perfect person” you thought you were marrying at age 30 is likely going to evolve (maybe considerably!) between 30 and 50. What I see in Millennials and Gen Z is that regardless of their cynicism about everything else, they have bought into the ridiculous fantasies sold in romance novels and rom-coms that if they just wait it out their “perfect match” who looks, talks, acts and thinks exactly how they have envisioned will show up some day and everything will be perfect from then on out. NOPE. That’s not real life and it never will be. P.S. this is exactly why I found Indian Matchmaking so fascinating. Say what you want but there were some excellent nuggets about how relationships work in the real world that were shown in that show. Both the men and the women were guilty of looking for things that don’t really exist in real human relationships. I don’t think arranged marriages are any kind of answer but do very much think younger people need to get real about relationships. Or just admit that they’re happier and better off permanently single, which is completely OK.
I agree with pretty much everything here. I will also add your partner does not need to fulfill all of your needs. It’s good to have other important relationships in your life outside your partner! I think often people see men in the half of the couple described as “oh well he couldn’t match me intellectually” and write him off. But don’t you have friends or family or other people in your lives? My husband hates politics and blank stares at me if I try to discuss with him, which is perfectly fine with me because I have tons of friends who will have lively discussions (or debates!) with me on politics. And honestly, it’s nice to have that intellectual stimulation not from my husband so I can leave those discussions, particularly the more lively debates and go spend time with my husband and not think about it anymore. I’m a lawyer and I often joke about people who married other lawyers, but who do you complain to? It’s nice to have lawyers to complain about my husband to and my husband to complain about lawyers to :)
I don’t think I can tell you the magic ingredient and I’ve only been married 5 years (together for 8). My husband and I joke that we have nothing in common, but we work; I think it’s because we have intangibles in common. We come from different socio-economic backgrounds (one sterotypical blue collar and one sterotypically white collar), although we grew up in the same city (well, one in the city and one in an x-burb). One of us went to trade school (and now makes more money) and one is a lawyer (who had a federal clerkship and BigLaw, but opted for a job that sparked joy and not money). We have none of the same hobbies or interests. However, we have the same outlook on life, energy levels, thoughts about family and family’s roles in our lives, views about money, senses of humor. We are both introverts and love quiet. Although the things we want are often different, we respect the other person’s choices (he wants stuff and will work more and sacrifice luxuries for it; I want free time and am happy to earn less to get it). We love to be together and pursue the small things we both enjoy (trying new coffee shops, working out, travel), but we also (happily) spend a lot of time apart to pursue our respective interests.
If we had met when we were 20 years old, we never would have gone out together. But when we met at 30, there was a spark and, while having nothing in common, we work and have a great marriage. For me, looking beyond the men who might have been in the group that my friends expected me to date in worked out well.
So in general my husband and I do make a lot of sense on paper, but just to comment on one small part of your friend analysis:
I could care. less. about sports and don’t even understand most of the rules. My husband is MISTER SPORTS and I realized a few years in I oddly find that an attractive quality. I think it generally makes our house more festive to have them on and have the excitement along with it it brings him, I love that it is a super easy common denominator he has with a lot of other people so over the years it has helped for sure when I bring him in settings where he doesn’t know many people (and I’m always attracted to guys that handle themselves well in that situation. Frankly I wish I had a go-to common denominator topic of conversation like that too), i like how it marks the seasons (ie I love fall and I like that football adds to the fall atmosphere)….
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with guys that don’t like sports, but for me personally I have just come to the odd realization that the sports thing is a turn on for me (Now, my husband would probably prefer me to be more into them, but oh well!)
That’s funny that you ended up liking that quality in your partner when you don’t love sports yourself. Personally, I’m SO GLAD my husband couldn’t care less about sports. I think I was scarred from seeing a relative’s husband refuse to go anywhere or do anything on Sundays during football season. I didn’t want to marry anyone who could be so rigid and, frankly, boring. He also never had friends over to watch the game or tried to make it fun in any way and that kind of life was not for me.
Is it more like a Jerry McGuire “you complete me” thing? Not quite opposites attract, as it doesn’t sound like what she loves, he hates, or vice versa. This is what I picked up from what you said: She loves to cook, he loves to eat. She loves reading alone quietly to relax, he loves engaging in more physical, outdoor activity (and thereby she is left alone to read). She loves learning and talking about what she learned, he loves listening.
Sometimes when both people love the exact same things, then it’s too much and rather than balancing like a see-saw, it’s weighted too heavily on one side. Also, it sounds like they really respect each other (including their choice) and I think that is much bigger necessity to a functioning relationship than people think.
( I’m just coming up with all this now, so there are gaps in this line of thinking.)
I almost wonder how much of this has to do with how many people meet their significant other these days- online. Not that meeting online in inherently bad, but when you use a dating app, you look for certain things and filter by specific criteria. Sometimes, meeting someone at a bar or doing an activity, the first thing you encounter is that they are interesting, or have a nice smile, or are friendly to you, or attractive (or all of those things). I met my spouse in college, so while we have levels of education in common, I would never have found him on a dating site, nor he me. We talk about this sometimes since most of our married friends found eachother via dating apps. “On paper” our interests are nothing alike.
This is a really good point. I met my husband at a mutual friends party a few years before dating apps were a thing. We often laugh that we’d never match on a dating apps because we wouldn’t have checked either of each other’s boxes/filters.
For what it’s worth, I am the 20 year married person above, and I met my husband online, in the early days of match.com. My criteria were male and a certain age range (that was pretty wide, but not younger than me.). I was willing to chat with anyone, and willing to have a cup of coffee with most. If I had made my criteria narrower, I wouldn’t have met my husband!
I’m preparing to hold a staff retreat to develop a new mission, vision, values statement. We are a newly formed org–merging of several different small departments–so this is a critical step for us. Due to covid, we have to do it over Zoom . . . which kind of sucks. Any tips, ideas, suggestions for keeping it focused, useful, engaging? We are breaking up what would have been a day long retreat into four 1 1/2 hour sessions so people don’t get Zoom fatigue.
The original Scarlett
Sessions like this are torture even without Zoom. I’ve found the reason why is they devolve into wordsmithing exercises and it’s hard for most to see the point and to care. I would suggest coming up with the basics for each aspect ahead of time and using one session to socialize it/ get buy in but go in more fully formed than you normally would. In other words have something for people to react to rather than expecting a virtual crafting session.
Starting in the 1990s, I don’t see how these 3 items are materially different. And no org seems to have fantastic ones. They are all mushy group-think and just embarrassing. Why in these times are you spending time on what should be optional? Does the org really not have a purpose or focus? Would Avon Barksdale have done this in The Wire? Or Omar Little (“I rob drug dealers, but only the really bad ones.”)? There is no value-add to be had here.
I don’t think you’ll be able to, largely because mission/vision/values is always unfocused, arcane vs. directly useful, and not engaging to most folks in your community. Zoom is so much worse for group discussions, and even breaking it down to 1.5hr sprints seems… like it would drag.
How many people do you actually need to draft the new statement? (hint: team writing should be confined to groups less than 8) Can you ask for input from the broader audience before drafting via survey and then allow public comments on your draft version?
Oh, and hour and a half is a very long session, especially when conducted online. This research is from Microsoft, not Zoom, but just the same: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/blog/2020/07/08/future-work-good-challenging-unknown/?ocid=usoc_LINKEDIN_M365_spl100001402322668
A quote from the article: “A second study found that brainwave markers associated with overwork and stress are significantly higher in video meetings than non-meeting work like writing emails. Further, due to high levels of sustained concentration fatigue begins to set in 30-40 minutes into a meeting. Looking at days filled with video meetings, stress begins to set in at about two hours into the day. The research suggests several factors lead to this sense of meeting fatigue: having to focus continuously on the screen to extract relevant information and stay engaged; reduced non-verbal cues that help you read the room or know whose turn it is to talk; and screen sharing with very little view of the people you are interacting with.”
Use an ideation tool like MIRO to keep people engaged. Have good facilitators who also have experience with the ideation tool. If introducing a new tool, make sure you start with an exercise to get people acquainted with it. Use music to set the mood, and to mark the breaks.
I think this was asked early on but asking again since we are now 2/3 of the way through the summer — have you traveled during this pandemic esp flying and/or staying in hotels? Where did you go – and was it a vacation? Would you do it again or did you find it too stressful to be worth it?
Haven’t flown or stayed in hotels, but we did a week at an AirBnB in northern Michigan in July, about a 6 hour drive for us. It wasn’t stressful from a Covid perspective at all – we had the whole house to ourselves and it had been empty for 48 hours before we stayed in it, and we did pretty much exactly what we do at home (takeout food and outdoor activities where we could keep away from people). It was fun…ish? We went to the beach a lot and a few playgrounds, my toddler really enjoyed it. I missed dining in restaurants, going to wineries and renting boats. We’d also been parenting 24/7 for about 4 months at that point so a week of uninterrupted family time wasn’t the treat it normally would be. We have tentative plans to go to Florida in December. It’s a much longer drive for us, but I hope it will be nice when we’re there. We have an incredible, surprisingly affordable house right on the beach so hoping we can just enjoy warmer weather, nice views and give the kiddo a chance to run around outside at a time when the weather at home is starting to get unpleasant.
I am very cautious. We just took a vacation we had booked pre-pandemic and probably wouldn’t have gone otherwise, but I’m so glad we did. Ours was to a vacation rental cabin in a rustic area. We vacation there every year. It’s a car ride away. I was super cautious about everyone using the bathroom before we left so we didn’t have to do bathroom stops and it worked. We also didn’t stop for lunch o then way like we usually do.
Before we went, my husband was kind of whining about why were we going if we were just going to shelter in place there vs here at home. And it’s true, we mostly did shelter there. We didn’t go out for meals. We didn’t go to the river and rent kayaks as we used to do. We made very limited trips to two local markets for grocery necessities (where we did run into a couple of mask denying yahoos) but we brought almost everything with us from home so that we wouldn’t have to spend a lot of time doing a big grocery shop.
Now that we’re back home, we are so glad we went! We were able to more fully relax there than we can at home, where there’s always some project that needs doing. The weather was gorgeous. We sat by the creek and read. The kids swam in the nearby swimming hole, which thankfully wasn’t in much use other than by us. We had local wine every night, and had a fire every night. It was lovely and we really were able to unwind. I’m so glad we did it.
Anon for this
I traveled, but it certainly wasn’t a vacation. I went to visit a terminally ill friend who doesn’t have much time left. Not going wasn’t an option for me. I ended up flying as the drive was prohibitively long (though I considered it, and felt the number of stops I’d have to make would only increase potential exposure), but my flights to and from were empty, the airports were empty, the rental car spot was empty. I wish the circumstances around the trip had been better, as it was probably the easiest journey I’ve taken in some time, not having crowds to deal with!
I stayed with a friend who had a guest bedroom and guest bath, and we stayed as socially distanced as we could. Not perfect, but it was a level of risk I was comfortable with.
Sigh – yes. I flew (within my own state and spent two nights in a hotel (with accompanying dinners out) because my state re-opened and I had to do it for work. The hotel part was not stressful at all. The flight was half empty but that was still quite anxiety provoking and I would not have done it voluntarily, but as long as judges do not think a pandemic is a reason to revise their scheduling orders I do not really have a choice if I want to keep my job. (It was me who lives with one other adult or someone else in my office living with her husband, two young children and elderly MIL.)
I am thinking about driving a short distance from my house and spending a few nights in a hotel at the coast before summer is over. As I said, the hotel was not worrisome – although the lack of room and maid service, while completely understandable, makes it slightly less of a treat.
Never too many shoes...
I had a mani ped about three weeks ago – does that count?
At this point, that definitely counts. A 2020 mani pedi is at least the equivalent of a three day weekend trip out of town in the before times!
We went to a rental house with its own pool where we could stay distanced while on vacation (i.e., masked grocery shopping and no-contact delivery takeout) – 100% worth it and wish we’d had the foresight to book it for 2 months.
I should add, as far as precautions – we were extra cautious in the weeks leading up to vacation (limited outside contact), isolated upon return and tested negative just in case, and are WFH.
We stayed at a lake house with 2 other families and had a blast! So fun to be out on the water. Also took a couple of day trips nearby. Planning on a beach vacation in October with extended family.
We stayed at a hotel resort and another AirBNB within driving distance. At the hotel, we only ordered room service and sat out on our patio, so we went out of our way to avoid interacting with anyone. I feel like if you do them right and avoid people, hotels pose minimal risk of COVID exposure. I told myself before both trips that I’d wipe down everything inside . . . but I didn’t. The only part of the trips that I didn’t like was using highway rest stops, so I tried to minimize them and be as fast as possible. No way would I get on a plane right now.
I flew across the country to be present for my sister’s 9-person wedding. I booked first class because it was the same price of economy tickets in normal times. I stayed in a hotel to avoid staying with my parents, who are in their 60s. It was easy to distance in the originating airport. The plan (American) was full, and the guy next to me had his mask off and chewed ice for an hour. It was hard to distance in the destination airport. Hotel was great. I wore an N95 mask layered over a cotton mask on the plane (to protect me and those around me) and did not remove it until I got off the plane. I was masked 95% of the time around family, except for the actual outdoor ceremony and photos
I got sick when I came back with a virus and fever (negative COVID test, but I’m not convinced) and then a sinus infection. I was already in isolation from my husband to keep him safe. Being sick was miserable and scary. Even after the antibiotics worked and the fever went away, it has taken until now (3.5 weeks since symptom onset) to feel at 100% without migraine-like headaches at the end of the day.
The trip was worth it because it meant so much to my sister, and my mom could not have pulled off the physical effort of the wedding without me. I did enjoy seeing my family. But getting sick was awful and burned a lot of my capital at work. No one in my family got sick, and I was tightly masked in transit and did not have symptoms until 48 hours later, so I hope I did not spread COVID if I had it. But given all that, I have no desire to fly again until we have test and trace, a low case load, and a vaccine. We will camp. That’s it.
My 10th wedding anniversary is rapidly approaching. Our celebration is certainly not going to look like what we were planning (a big European trip/staying in a castle), but I’d still like to find ways to make it special. We do the traditional year gifts so that means aluminum/tin. We’re big red wine drinkers, but with the oppressive heat this summer we began exploring white whine and drinking more sparkling wines. I was thinking of a wine chiller, but I’m not finding many options made from aluminum. Any recommendations? I thought a wine chiller and a bottle of champagne from 2010 would be a nice idea. Any other aluminum ideas? TIA!
Not highbrow, but a can of Crush soda. “I still have a crush on you.” ;)
How about an aluminum anniversary bracelet?
Oh! Along similar lines, this lady makes aluminum jewelry and cufflinks: http://www.ilovegogojewelry.com/cuff-links
They now have some higher-end rose’s and sparkling wines in a can. Maybe you could put together a mini wine tasting date at home with some canned wines?
Ha! This is hilarious!
SA – I know! I did laugh a little at myself realizing how crazy it sounded to describe canned wine as high-end and suggest a tasting. At least it’s something different?! I think prolonged isolation from fun things is starting to get to me. (I also know I’m all over this thread today, but I just can’t with this week anymore, so here I am suggesting canned wine tastings!)
I hasten to add that I would totally do it!
Another anonymous judge
I bought my husband a champagne bucket and stand around about our 10th anniversary and it’s still going strong almost 15 years later. We get lots of use out of it! I found it at a restaurant supply company but there might be some on more conventional retail sites.
How about renting an airstream trailer?
This? Is genius!
And next year, for your 11th (steel), you can rent a Lustron house!
Thanks for the recommendations! I’m intrigued by the wine can taste testing and renting an airstream!
Amuse me, TV edition
This today got me thinking about perception / reality / escapism
Person you feel you are: Arya Stark, Game of Thrones
Person you fear you are: Little Finger
It all came from how much 2020 s*cks. And Little Finger’s fantastic quotation: chaos is a ladder. In 2020, nothing seems more apt.
Never got into GOT. Who on earth is Little Finger?
What are the exit opportunities after 4 years in Big 4 accounting? A friend is in that position and unhappy/bored at her job, and I’m curious about what the possibilities are but don’t want to ask him just yet. He’s either a manager or about to be one.
Caveat that I’m Big 4 but not accounting, the people I know or am connected with on LinkedIn usually go to finance manager roles in industry, transfer to other service lines in their Big 4 or a competitor (e.g., M&A), or go to business school.