Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Joanne Cropped Tailored Trousers

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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

These pants from Reiss come in a rainbow of colors, but the purple version is my favorite. I love the idea of doing a monochromatic look and pairing this with a lavender or light pink top like this short-sleeve sweater or this eyelet blouse. These pants also come in your basic black, gray, and navy, as well as rust, berry, teal, and cream.

The pants are $180 — but 30% off when you add them to your cart, making them $126 — and come in sizes 0–12. Joanne Cropped Tailored Trousers

While they're a different shade of purple, these pants from Tahari ASL are $26–$102 at Amazon and come in sizes 2–18, and these Eloquii pants (a bestselling style) are $79, but at 40% off, they're $47.

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Sales of note for 2/7/25:

  • Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
  • Ann Taylor – Extra 25% off your $175+ purchase — and $30 of full-price pants and denim
  • Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything + extra 15% off
  • Boden – 15% off new season styles
  • Eloquii – 60% off 100s of styles
  • J.Crew – Extra 50% off all sale styles
  • J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything including new arrivals + extra 20% off $125+
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – 40% off one item + free shipping on $150+

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

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455 Comments

  1. Good morning! I’ve been spending extra quality time in my kitchen lately and realized it needs…help. Have any of you worked with a graphic designer or contractor that can help me picture how to improve the look and gauge the cost?

    1. Does your kitchen work ergonomically? If so, leave it be/only replace what’s worn out.
      If it doesn’t, get a designer who knows how to create a kitchen you can really work in. Most of the new kitchens I see in houses (renos and new builds) are meant to look on-trend, but little thought is given to actually cooking in them or where to store your stuff when you’re not cooking.

    2. You might look for a certified Kitchen and Bath designer in your area. They train on space planning, code compliance, etc. We worked with one in the burbs who was less expensive than someone from the city. She had pictures of her other projects on a home site. He or she will need to be able to visit the space and take a zillion measurements, but you could interview candidates now.

      1. +1 – we started working with one before all of this and you could tell pretty quickly in interviewing them who designed kitchens for looks vs. use (one designer showed me photos of a gorgeous kitchen she designed and said the owners only used it for liquids – the wife was on some sort of shake/supplement diet and the husband always did take out).

        1. As someone who loves to cook, stories like that break my heart a little. We did a “tour of homes” one year and saw all these beautiful kitchens with top-end appliances, high-end cookware and knives on display, and things like wood ovens, proofing drawers, built-in rotisseries, etc. and it was apparent that no matter how long the house had been lived in, the kitchen was barely used. Everything was completely pristine and not the kind of pristine you get from a deep cleaning; the kind of pristine you get with zero use. What a waste.

          1. Oof! I have a tiny crummy which I use 3x a day these days and I hate that those beautiful kitchens are wasted on people who don’t actually cook.

        2. I fear my sweet husband fell victim to a bit of that. Our kitchen is gorgeous and huge and for the most part is beautifully functional, however the lighting is horrible! Think task lighting right smack in the middle of the huge island, where no task ever happens. Gah. And none over the sink or the stove. The light fixtures look amazing but I’m going blind. I can only conclude his designer never actually cooked a meal in her life.

        3. This! Our last house had beautiful kitchen, but once we moved in, it quickly became clear that no one actually cooked in it – you couldn’t open the dishwasher and the garbage drawer at the same time, and while there was an 8 foot counter, it was above the only drawers in the kitchen. You couldn’t take out a spoon while someone was standing at the counter, so there was effectively only room for one person at any given time. I suspect that the previous owners were a frozen lasagne kind of family. Our new house is a mid-’60s build with the original kitchen and it is far more functional.

  2. How do you all deal with parents who just do whatever they like during the pandemic?

    Husband and I found out on the weekend that my inlaws (70 and 80, which rather fragile health) went to the neighborhood organic food store weekly despite us ordering food for them online. They live in another country and have no real support network there, so the food order was about the only thing we could do from afar.
    They were not wearing masks, paying cash, and not disinfecting their groceries – all these things we had urged them to do and talked about at least weekly since this pandemic started in the beginning of March.

    When we asked why they went to the store they said
    1) the food we ordered had substitutions they didn’t like (e.g. no organic flour) (OK?!)
    2) the neighborhood store is not as bad as a supermarket because the latter have A/C from which you’ll get sick and the organic store is small and leaves the front door open with “good fresh air” (WTH? What science is behind that?)
    3) the organic food store doesn’t have clients with Covid-19 (????)
    4) the protective effect of mask wearing is still debated (IT’S NOT)
    5) they were not wearing masks because they have just 2 and don’t want to start the washing machine for such a small load (WTFH???)

    We were livid. We are both scientists and I have experience doing research on SARS. We’ve been self-isolating since March 10 and see our primary goal in keeping us and our families safe, so that we can all be together again some time in the future (currently, travelling there is not possible).
    All I hear is “me, me, me, and I’m oh so inconvenienced because I can’t get seeded quinoa harvested at full moon” so they’d rather go to a store that’s frequented by people that believe in homeopathy and are probably antivaxxers to some degree. (I realize that reasonable people go to organic food store, in fact we order from one too where we live. Unfortunately not an option where inlaws live.)

    I exploded and said that all the excuses are a bunch of nonsense and if they want to play the lottery and catch a deadly disease rather than eat regular flour (and keep in mind we’re not forcing you to eat frozen pizza) – then they’re on their own, and we can’t help them. We can’t even travel there now, and if one of them is hospitalized, they will be alone there, and worst case die alone just because they took nothing we said seriously. They say we shouldn’t be worried, but heck yeah, you bet we’re extremely worried with such irrational and cavalier behavior.

    I just cannot anymore with this. I’m hearing from friends that some have similar problems with their parents – what is it with that generation???

    How do you deal? I’m seriously dreading to talk to them because I don’t want to talk about mundane stuff if they’re not making the least effort to protect themselves.

    1. To be honest, this is the exact reason I’m having a very difficult time with the stay at home orders. My parents and in-laws are the same way, their friends are all acting the same way and my friend’s parents are all acting the same way. I’m about to lose it. Why am I sacrificing and taking all the requested/required precautions/not leaving the house except for walks with masks and once a week grocery runs when I have very few risk factors and the people that we are trying to protect can’t seem to do the same thing to protect themselves. I’m all for hey we’re doing this for the community but at some point if the community we are trying to protect isn’t going to comply, can we just give up on this already? I’m fine getting this with the statistics that have come out and the behavior I’m seeing (albeit anecdotal) from the people I’m doing this to protect is really wearing me down.

      1. The OP’s complaint is that they aren’t doing double-plus coronavirusing stuff (disinfecting produce? cloth masks being protective of the wearer against viruses?). At this point, if the elders are a bit lax at the store and aren’t ill, the elders look like they have a point, no? And at any rate, all of what their doing would be allowable in my state.

        I haven’t disinfected groceries since I had to wash produce in bleach as a child due to concerns about fecal bacteria from (ahem) natural fertilizer — very different than here where the virus has never been described as food-borne.

        1. I guess I should have clarified, my parents, inlaws, their friends and my friends parents and inlaws are doing much more than weekly grocery store runs. Think daily outings to places (grocery store, CVS, target, post office, whatever), meeting up with friends (but it’s outside so it’s ok!) and other nonsense.

          My complaint is if the whole point of social distancing is to protect the vulnerable, it’d be nice if the vulnerable took at least the same precautions (and ideally more) than the rest of us our doing.

          1. I completely agree. However, I think a lesson we can all take from this time, which is very applicable to life in normal times, is: we cannot control other people, we can only control ourselves. OP and others, you can want and wish and hope all you want, that people in your lives will behave as you want them to and think they should. That doesn’t mean they will do it. Elders who are compos mentis have the ability – and the right – to make their own decisions and behave as they see fit. If noncompliant behavior is this much of a stress trigger, the best thing to do is re-evaluate your own emotional commitment and engagement and recalibrate it to a level that’s more comfortable for you.

            I am also going to say, I think some people are still believing that they are going to get some kind of reward if they can “quarantine harder” than everyone else. People, if you are quarantining and following guidelines because you think there is going to be some kind of personal recognition or acknowledgement for it, or you will receive gratitude for what you’re doing, please think again. Quarantine to protect yourselves and your families and because you believe it is the right thing to do. Don’t do it because you believe other people can and will be grateful to you for doing it, because that day of gratitude for your quarantining efforts is likely not coming.

          2. I totally agree with Anon at 9:40, what I’m trying to articulate (perhaps poorly) is that the non-compliance of so many at risk people I know is making me question more and more if quarantining is really the right thing for me to be doing since it feels like the benefit (which to me, is protecting those people) diminishes daily.

          3. I am following what you are saying, anon. The elderly and unhealthy are the last, not the first, people who will be leaving quarantine.

        2. Yeah, I hear your frustration at older people who are ignoring the rules to socialize with friends. But OP is just mad that they’re not following her special rules, which are much more extreme than any guidance from the federal or state governments (at least in the US, maybe rules are different in her in-laws’ home country).

          1. Agreed. I am not aware of any state or country which requires disinfecting of groceries. As of right now, many US states are permitting people to go to the grocery store without masks. Not sure what the requirements are in your in-laws country but it seems like you are getting annoyed because they aren’t doing these excessive things that you personally have decided are required.

    2. Honestly I think you need to meet in the middle here. It sounds like you already have a lot of contempt for their attitude about organic food that you need to get over. Maybe focus on having them wear a mask (they don’t even need to wash it after! just set it down and don’t touch it for a few days, until the next time you shop!) and handwashing rather than battling them on every possible precaution and berating them for leaving the house?

      Flimsy excuses aside, these people probably just want a reason to leave their house once a week…

      1. But also, most studies say masks have a significant protective effect FOR others, while less so for the wearer. I don’t know if that’s the hill I’d die on. I think it’s more about minimizing their excursions and making sure they’re monitoring their health. I know my parents definitely have this attitude (though they’re 10-20 years younger and in better health) – they see it as, I’ve got limited time left, I’m not going to spend it cooped up, and by at least trying to understand their point of view and talking them through alternatives to things they want to do (they’ve now started doing regular driveway happy hours, things like that), they’re in a much better place.

        1. Right! Mere cloth masks are to counter outbound spread (not incoming viruses, which they are not protective against). Cloth masks won’t stop a wearer from getting it, just giving it (possibly).

        2. The problem is that if everyone thinks “Oh I don’t have the virus so I don’t need a mask because it won’t protect me if someone else coughs on me anyway” we can do away with the mask wearing all together. We have a situation where people walk around being mostly asymptomatic spreaders, and we don’t know how long virus particles linger in air etc. Even if a cloth mask protects me only 20%, that’s better than nothing.

          1. But your concern here is really your in-laws, right? Not the fact that they might be marginally increasing the chances of others getting sick. I’m assuming you’re mostly concerned about them, since you mentioned their ages and fragile health, as well as lots of detail about their shopping habits. There’s NO evidence that wearing masks protects the wearer. I don’t know that this is the hill that you want to die on when discussing this with them. Like, yes, in a perfect world they’d be wearing masks to protect everyone else. But if they’re going out just once a week for groceries without masks on they’re extremely unlikely to harm anyone else, especially at their ages (tons of 20-something are asymptomatic but virtually no 70-somethings are).

      2. Being able to leave the house once a week is why my mom goes shopping. I’ve made my peace with the fact that I can’t control my parents. Instead of getting angry, I’ve used ‘I’m disappointed in your choices. You didn’t raise me to disregard my own health or the health of others.’ Repeat ad nauseum.

        I’ve also hung up on my mom when she insists on talking about her trip to the store after a warning that I don’t want to hear about her unnecessarily putting herself or my dad in danger. She got the message and doesn’t reference it anymore.

        I do think the distancing healthy people are doing helps. It’s the only thing proven to work in past pandemics.My parents are not being sensible but plenty of people are. It’s not just about me and my family. It’s about all of us and making sure the hospitals don’t get overwhelmed like in Italy and Spain. As scientists you know that the science will start to catch up and even a few more weeks or months of distancing will result in more knowledge about treatments so that the hospitalization and death rates decrease until we can get a vaccine.

        1. proven by whom? how exactly do healthy people staying away from other healthy people impact the spread? If they are healthy they aren’t spreading the rona.

          1. It’s people who think they are healthy because they have no symptoms that are the problem. Either because they are infected but haven’t shown symptoms yet (anywhere from 2-14 days) or they are infected but have no symptoms.

            Of course actually healthy people aren’t the problem… it’s the inability to distinguish between actual health and symptom-free infection!

          2. Anonymous – perhaps you haven’t heard that one could be asymptomatic but pass it on to others. It was news to Gov Kemp, too.

          3. Are you serious? Read anything about any previous pandemic ever. People can transmit it without symptoms. Social distancing worked before and it is working now. That’s why our ERs are not overflowing like Italy’s were

        2. Lauren you are extremely tiresome as usual, I’m bored so I’ll explain it to you. The poster stated “I do think the distancing healthy people are doing helps. It’s the only thing proven to work in past pandemics.” 1) She said healthy, not asymptomatic spreaders; and 2) keeping healthy people away has never been proven to stop a pandemic, it was the quarantine of sick people.

      3. OP here: To clarify, I am fully supporting getting organic food – we ourselves buy mostly organic, we don’t eat processed foods, try to live environmentally friendly etc.
        I also fully support them going for walks in the park, and having safe interactions with their neighbors over the fence etc. This is important for their physical, mental and social health, of course.

        What I have a problem with is a pattern of not believing the science (or even what government officials recommend). And admittedly that is part of a larger underlying problem (they have previously not sought care for conditions like diabetes which they tried to cure with globuli and stone salts until FIL had to be briefly hospitalized with high blood sugar, they have not updated the minimal vaccinations even when we had a newborn son etc.)

        And to make no effort to minimize exposure when you live in a densely populated European city with hundreds of confirmed cases is just reckless.

        Yeah, we insisted on the mask wearing. Nothing more we can do.

        1. Kindly, if they don’t trust science at 70 and 80, I highly doubt you’re going to change their minds on the topic. They are making efforts to minimize – the went to the store once?

          I hear you. I would be rage-y, too. However, you need to consider what is within your control and what is not. Keeping them in their homes is not.

      4. Just want to say that it’s not unreasonable to *want* to leave your house once per week. I think a lot of people on this board really downplay the mental health impacts of shelter in place, and/or take for granted that everyone has a spacious, comfortable home with co-inhabitants that they like.

        1. I don’t think anyone here has said it’s unreasonable to want to leave your house or apartment. That’s why people walk outside, sit in the front yard and chat with neighbors at a safe distance, etc. I have to say, I had to drive a half hour to a medical pharmacy to pick up something that one of my husband’s patients needed. It was a very safe outing (in car, into this pharmacy with no contact other than being handed a bag by a gloved person, back into car to sanitize, etc.) but I was never more delighted to run an errand! I *do* get being stir-crazy, but there are safer and less safe ways of relieving that stir-craziness right now.

          1. Really? Have you read the dismissive tone of some of these comments? Including yours? Or Pure Imagination’s charming comment yesterday calling people killers for handing convenience store clerks credit cards or for sneezing outside? Not everyone has a partner, a house, a yard, or neighbors they can talk to. Stir crazy =/= declining mental health. Stir crazy is feeling tense after a few days in a snow storm. Weeks-long disconnection and isolation is quite different.

      5. It doesn’t seem like it’s contempt for organic per se – it seems like it’s contempt for the notion that in these times, one must be “pure” about these things. I too would feel the same way – yeah, organic, natural, blah blah blah, but right now, you eat what you have access to.

      6. The problem is that if everyone thinks “Oh I don’t have the virus so I don’t need a mask because it won’t protect me if someone else coughs on me anyway” we can do away with the mask wearing all together. We have a situation where people walk around being mostly asymptomatic spreaders, and we don’t know how long virus particles linger in air etc. Even if a cloth mask protects me only 20%, that’s better than nothing.

    3. How do you deal? Talk about other things. They are grown adults who can make their own choices and suffer the consequences of those choices. They’re not children. As hard as it is to contemplate the possibility of your parents’ not being there, they are adults who can make their own decisions.

      1. Yes, this. My grandparents go to the small store down the block from them once a week because it makes them happy and they don’t know how to use the internet for groceries (and won’t let me do it for them). It scares me because they are in their 80s and not in great health, but they are adults and it’s their choice. It also does help their mental health – they are friendly with the guy at the store and it’s the only time they get to talk to someone IRL. You tell them you don’t think that’s safe, and then move on to other things because we can’t control others. This would make me less angry than the people having dinner parties as mentioned yesterday.

    4. My friends are having issues with their parents as well (60-75ish). My mother is not behaving. She feels that we can’t ruin everyone else’s life (read: hers) to protect “the few” people who are particularly vulnerable to covid 19. Plot twist, she’s immunocompromised and over 60. For a variety of reasons, she moved out of state temporarily to live with a friend and near her 85 year old mother during the peak of this crisis. I just can’t deal. After I made my feelings on her behavior and her callous, anti-science position known, we’ve not been speaking about it other than brief check ins.

      My sister tells me that her husband’s family started to comply with shelter in place a few weeks after it was implemented. They’ve got a big intergenerational family all living in the same city and they visit with each other all. the. time. They all have preexisting health conditions. His mother was recently hospitalized for kidney issues. What is this.

    5. Honestly, you are not staying in your lane. They are adults and you are their child. It is not your position to tell them what to do, any more than any other adult. You’ve said your piece. Move on.

      If you want a chain-of-command life where you can give an order that someone has to follow, I suggest the armed forces.

        1. I imagine that the Oldsters gather with their friends and complain about how all of their sons are married to the same Karens. I feel that they aren’t wrong.

          Next year, the Karens will chart everyone’s BMI and point out their short comings, upping the volume when bacon or butter are consumed. This will convince at least the male Olds that their resistance to getting hearing aids is a feature, not a bug, and maybe everyone else should become deaf and the world will be if not better, peaceful and quiet.

          1. yeah, the world is always better when older women shut up. Great point you made there Jan.

          2. “This Karen thing is so sexist. Try to be better.”
            I find that the only women who complain about the “Karen” meme being sexist are the women who are engaging in Karen behavior. Personally, I think telling people to “be better” is a pretty Karen thing to do. Why do I have to live up to your standard of “better”? Who are you to set standards for anyone?

          3. There have always been Karens. Some Karens aren’t women and aren’t white. A large chunk of the Karens on NextDoor seem to be men. We just didn’t have such a handy concept before. Sabelotodo in Spanish comes close.

          4. To Anon @ 11:34, per the aforementioned article: “But women should also be free to point out when a trope has become mired in sexism without being accused of being humourless old shrews, ie Karens. No one wants to be a Karen, amirite? The Karen meme has become a way of not just describing women’s behaviour, but controlling it. No wonder so many men enjoy it.”

          5. “No wonder so many men enjoy it.”
            Is this supposed to be a deterrent of some kind? I enjoy a lot of things men enjoy. I don’t enjoy a lot of things women enjoy, even though I am a woman. Like when women decide they need to constantly police other people’s behavior and attempt to shame them for not strictly adhering to standards only they are qualified to judge and arbitrate? I don’t enjoy that at all.

    6. Whenever my 80something parents, who live on their own, do something I think is unwise or foolish, I repeat to myself that they are grown adults who get to make their own decisions. These people are grown adults. They have a different perspective on life, death, and risk than you do. They get to have that perspective.

      Or, you can drive yourself and them crazy trying to change them.

    7. There’s nothing you can do. My 74 year old mom is ignoring the rules, and has flat out said “I never get sick” (which is true) “but if I get it and I die, I die.” It makes me crazy, but she’s an adult and is making her own choices.

      1. What drives me bonkers is this is not just about YOU getting it – it’s about you spreading it around as you travel before you know you have it. To use the example from yesterday, it’s not like underage drinking (only you face the consequences of your actions) it’s more like driving drunk into a busy farmers market on a spring day- yes, you’ll get hurt when you crash, but you hurt/kill others too!

      2. “And while you’re dying, you’re taking away a hospital ICU bed from someone else who might die because they can’t get the ventilator you’re on. Unless you are planning to refuse hospital treatment, follow the rules.”

        It’s not about whether one person lives or dies, you don’t care if you die? IDGAF! But unless you are prepared to stay home and not seek hospital treatment when you get Covid or get sick from anything else, then follow the rules because you’ll end up taking away hospital treatment that someone else may need and you are unnecessarily endangering hospital workers.

          1. Yes – it’s been better here than Italy because of social distancing – that’s the entire point of my comment.

          2. i am only speaking about the coronavirus situation. your leftist media darling, andrew cuomo, said so himself. google it dear.

          3. There were definitely ventilator shortages in New York City and I think also in Detroit. That said, most states haven’t (yet) had bed or ventilator shortages.

          4. @anon 12:53, there were projected shortages that never came to fruition. again, look into things rather than just spouting media talking points.

    8. They went to a store apparently in a country where masks aren’t required. They’re already isolated and scared. You can’t forbid them from living their lives. It sounds like they actually are doing a lot of things.

      You’ve just screamed at your in laws they will die alone. Sit with that. Because they already know that and haven’t asked otherwise.

      1. I think this is such a great comment. When we let our frustration overcome our empathy, and start saying things like “I guess you’re on your own if you get sick because I won’t help you,” the problem is with us and how we’re coping with our own fear; it’s not with the people we’re talking to. I get it because it happens to me too, sometimes. But the OP’s in-laws are elderly people living in a world that has changed overnight and they are trying to cope with it, just like all of us. This is where the concept of grace becomes very helpful. We could all be extending a little more of it to each other.

    9. I also live abroad, my parents are also grocery shopping in the way you describe. I deal with it the same way I’ve always dealt with my parents and loved ones ignoring medical advice (about nutrition, exercise, alcohol consumption), by recognizing that they are adults who have the right to make their own decisions about their health and risks. It definitely was sad and shocking to realize that those decisions may significantly shorten their lives, but I don’t think it’s effective or right to try to control their behavior. I just have to treasure the time I do have with them, even if it’s just over the phone.

    10. I know they are your parents or in-laws, and you care about them. That’s evident. You’ve done a lot for them and given them your best advice and told them all your concerns.
      The only person you can control in this situation is yourself. They are making their own decision, and sadly, those decisions are high risk in these Covid-19 times. Their decisions don’t reflect on you, and given the distance, only affect your mental health.
      Given how exasperated you are, and that you have your life to live, it may be time to take a step back. It’s OK to NOT talk to them for a bit, while you work on letting this situation go. I know that’s a scary thought, but giving up the need to try to convince them doesn’t mean you don’t care about them. Your shift to simply saying “your choices, your consequences. I love you guys and hope you beat the odds as I want you around longer” etc will either give you peace of mind, or give them pause, or possibly both!
      Take care of yourself, because in this case, they clearly don’t care about your advice. You’ve done your part. And done above and beyond what I would do.
      This is hard. Hugs. I hope you can find some mental and emotional respite from this situation.

    11. Can we start a thread venting about our clueless boomer parents who think THEY’RE not “that” old (uh, you’re 69 and 70) we’re ‘healthy’ and (no, no you’re not, you’ve both had major surgeries and are on daily medications) and ‘its not fair, we just want to go out and see people, we’re bored’.
      I literally screamed at my parents last weekend and I’m currently not speaking to them for this attitude (I’m ‘mean’ and ‘morbid’ for reminding them of their age and health status). My parents are difficult anyway, but I just cannot listen to you being ‘bored’ when we’re trying to work full time, homeschool, and are quaranting to keep YOUR generation safe.

      1. If you’re worked up to the point of ‘literally screaming’, this is a you-problem, not a them-problem.

        1. Disagree. They’re complaining about being bored when she’s WFH and homeschooling? Talk about self-centred. They can STFU.

          1. Grown adults who are emotionally mature do not scream at people to vent their feelings. Period. It’s not acceptable behavior at any time, not even this time.

          2. Hard eyeroll at Anon 10:25 and the assumption that all cultures adopt the british stiff upper lip approach with close family members.

          3. 10:39 anon, there’s a long continuum between “stiff-upper-lip” and “literally screaming”.
            I’ve lived in many cultures, but have never been and hope to never experience one where screaming at one’s close family members is acceptable.

          4. “Hard eyeroll at Anon 10:25 and the assumption that all cultures adopt the british stiff upper lip approach with close family members.”

            Two things:
            – I am sorry you apparently grew up in a family where you learned that it is okay and normal for people to scream at each other. That must have been very difficult.
            – I feel sorry for the people in your life who you apparently scream at, thinking it’s okay because they’re your family/friends and it’s totally fine to scream at people if you feel like it. That must be very difficult for them.

            As Anon at 11:12 said, there’s a big difference between never sharing feelings and being abusive to someone by screaming at them. Screaming is abuse, Anon at 10:39. Sorry your family hasn’t gotten that memo and I am deeply sorry for those around you that you haven’t gotten it either.

          5. It actually wasn’t difficult because ppl learned to express our feelings instead of just make nasty passive aggressive comment.

            But thanks for the bitchy faux sympathy. So sorry for you that you grew up in a family where people thought it was better to be passive aggressive than express their feelings with true emotions in serious situations. *hugs*

          6. I feel like the whole “all screaming is abusive” trope has pretty racist undertones. There are plenty of cultures where being loud/animated/shouting is far more common/normal. It wasn’t super common in my family but my family definitely was much more likely to raise their voices than my husband’s family who probably thinks any sort of shouting is uncouth. Years later I still find it hard to figure out if my inlaws are mad at me, why they are mad at me, or what I did wrong if they are mad at me. I personally wish they’d yell at me instead so we could clear the air and move on.

          7. “So sorry for you that you grew up in a family where people thought it was better to be passive aggressive than express their feelings with true emotions in serious situations.”
            No, they expressed their feelings. There was high value placed on self-control and stepping back from a situation until you could discuss things calmly and without disrespecting others. Self expression was okay. Screaming was not. That kind of self-discipline has served me very, very well in my professional life. Based on your outbursts here, I wonder what your professional life looks like. Or your life in general. Safe to say, I probably wouldn’t want to trade places with you on any day of your life. Is that direct enough for you?

            “I feel like the whole “all screaming is abusive” trope has pretty racist undertones.”
            Give me a break, please. Learning how to appropriately display emotion without hurting other people’s eardrums is not cultural. Please do not equate how things worked in your (possibly dysfunctional) family or community with how an ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE looks at self-expression. I think THAT’S racist.

          8. Anonymous at 2:34 that’s not at all what I was saying and you know it. You are attributing the stiff upper lip WASPY way of life as being superior to any other sort of expression. I suspect you are the type who accuses people of yelling when they are not. This happens somewhat regularly at my place of work, where someone accuses someone of having an “outburst” or “yelling” when surveys of others in the meeting concluded that it was in fact not an outburst/that the person was not yelling. The person accused is never a white male.

            As an aside, I personally find it amusing that you are using all caps, which is Internet yelling on a thread where you are claiming that all yelling is abusive. So thanks for the chuckle.

          9. Agree @1:46. I’m Jewish and most families I know, including mine, yell. I definitely feel like “screaming is abuse” is a very WASPy and vaguely anti-Semitic (and anti-other loud cultures) viewpoint.

        2. I VERY rarely scream (and honestly it was more shout-y type talking) but I consider this the same reason I would have yelled at a 2-yr old who ran into the street – this is BAD and DANGEROUS and NOT a good decision. It was also after much back and forth (they wanted to drive across state lines, and come visit and talk with us because they were bored). They have plenty of social interaction, they just ‘wanted to go for a drive’. After being told no (and no to their bargaining – oh we’ll just pop in and out, oh we’ll talk from the patio with the windows open, etc.). I finally snapped and said something along the lines of “NO, YOU ARE NOT allowed in my home, and if you decide to do it anyway we will not open the door or interact with you.
          They then hung up on me and I got many (many ) texts about how mean we are and all their friends are getting to drive by their grandchildren’s homes. I cannot.

      2. Yes, I am so over this mindset and quite frankly about done with the sacrificing to protect this generation.

      3. Oh, so much this!!!

        And on top of everything, complaining that they are so busy because they are cleaning out the homeoffice that’s been sitting in chaos for 7 years.
        While we’re working from home full-time, manage a preschooler and trying to stay healthy during this pandemic.

      4. Honestly, I think that we have to accept that we don’t get to tell people what to do and have them follow our wishes to the letter. That is not how life works!

        It’s like before this, there were never issues convincing people not to drive when their faculties were failing, maybe to move to a nursing home (oops — maybe that was the absolute wrong move in retrospect), that hearing aids could be helpful, etc., etc.

        I didn’t listen unquestioningly to my parents past the age of . . . wanting to sneak candy, so why should I be able to demand that they listen to me just because I have a feeling about something?

        1. Yes! My grandfather is at an age where he still has his mental faculties but doesn’t always make decisions that are in his or society’s best interests. I’ve done a lot of reading on this topic, and it’s really important to let people of all ages make their own decisions, even if I don’t agree with them, and even if they are objectively bad decisions. We cannot control others. I can understand why it would be difficult and scary for a person to spend (potentially) a large percentage of their final time in life in a completely new world where they suddenly can’t do the things they enjoy and their children yell at them.

          1. Except it’s not about them. It’s about protecting everyone. We don’t let people smoke in movie theatres because Grandpa would be sad about not being able to smoke in his final years. They can say they don’t care about their own lives or longevity but they don’t get to take away someone else’s.

          2. I’m the Anon at 11:31, and I totally get what you’re saying. I agree with you, and it’s why I have been following all the orders in my state. But my point is that we cannot lock elderly people in jails or in their homes to keep them from going out, and we can try to be understanding and kind to people who are struggling. The question was how the OP can handle people going to the store once a week for supplies she deems nonessential while not wearing masks. The answer is that OP can’t control their behavior, no matter how ill advised it is.

          3. Also to your point about smoking in a movie theater, my grandfather gets to decide if he lights up in a movie theater, knowing that he might be forced to leave or fined and that it’s not good for society. I can tell him not to smoke in the theater for various reasons and hope he listens, but I cannot lock him in his home to prevent him from doing so.

      5. That is super frustrating.

        I think of it as I’m staying home to keep healthcare workers safe and keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. My civilian doctor friends didn’t sign up to do battlefield medicine and I’m going to try really hard to make sure they don’t have to.

      6. Yes. I fall into the “somewhat bored” category since I’m no longer working and don’t have children at home and my house is clean and Kondo-ed to death, but I think it’s really tone deaf to talk about being bored when there are people who are struggling with juggling child care, online school / homeschooling and a paid job from home right now, not to mention the many people who threw their money and lives into businesses that are crashing and burning with no end in sight. THAT is what really gets me about the “I’m so bored, I need to get together with 10 of my BFFs in person because Zoom or meeting outside won’t do.” You got problems? Tell that to my friend who has a 4 yo and a 4 month old, a husband who is an essential in-person worker, and is trying to juggle a job and taking care of the children bc daycare is closed. Tell that to the essential workers on the front lines. Tell that to the person whose life savings in their business is now kaput. So yeah, deprivation *is* relative.

        1. I agree with this. Not popular on this board and I know I’ll get flamed for agreeing, but “I’m bored so eff all of you” is an ugly look.

          1. This is a really reductionist view of some nuanced beliefs people have posted about here, and hold in the real world. Quarantine fatigue and wanting to reopen the economy is about much more than just being “bored.”

          2. I’m afraid that I didn’t find the weekend’s cocktail party post nuanced – I believe it said “I’ve done this for six weeks and I’m DONE.” Perhaps I missed its subtleties.

          3. I think you have a hard time considering the perspective of people who are not you, Pure Imagination. You certainly aren’t curious about it. I see that over and over again in your comments.

          4. No one has posted that here. You’ve angrily attacked people who have said they don’t understand why as single people it’s unacceptable for them to start seeing one family member, people who are complying but are very anxious to start opening up and disagree that waiting for a vaccine is feasible, and people who have expressed serious mental health struggle.

          5. That was my post, and yes, you did. I didn’t attend a cocktail party for starters. I had a drink with two friends because I am alone, and have been for 6 weeks, and no longer believe that isolation is necessary, and am worried about my mental health. Clearly you disagree but we all read the thread and if all you got from it was “I’m bored let’s party!” you need to work on your empathy, compassion, and reading comprehension.

          6. Honestly, shut up. You & LaurenB have been all over this bored shaming anyone who complains or says their mental health is suffering, and honestly, just STOP IT. This is all far more nuanced than you give it credit for being.

          7. “Honestly, shut up. You & LaurenB have been all over this bored shaming anyone who complains or says their mental health is suffering, and honestly, just STOP IT. This is all far more nuanced than you give it credit for being.”

            +1 million to this. You know what I’m OVER? Those two.

          8. I can’t stop you from disliking my posts and I don’t care to, but one thing you’ve got wrong – I have never, and would never, attack anyone who expressed a very serious mental health struggle. To accuse that is uncalled for and cruel.

          9. Very longtime poster and agreed with others. I’d encourage you, Pure Imagination, to do some serious reflecting on the reason why there are this many people who respond negatively to your comments. Sure, maybe you’ve never attacked someone who expressly said “I have a serious mental health struggle,” but you’ve repeatedly displayed a lack of compassion for anyone who finds lockdown and isolation hard on their mental health, and a tendency to dismiss them as selfish and uncaring. I think you have a good heart, but I would strongly suggest a break from this site and some self-examination

          10. No, Pure Imagination. The problem with your posts is that you repeatedly dismiss and castigate anyone who says anything that doesn’t comply with PI’s strict social distancing guidelines. You repeatedly make comments that imply that someone who doesn’t comply is an incubus of viral plague who is selfishly endangering lives of others. You repeatedly dismiss justifications for taking reasonably safe actions to ease the burden of social isolation. You’ve done it already today, with your “I’m bored so eff you” comment.

            People shouldn’t need to proactively state a “express a very serious mental health struggle” before they make a comment for you to display an ounce of compassion and stop attacking.

      7. Oh, starting off with “clueless boomer parents” is SO welcoming to all the “clueless boomer” readers of this site. Would you dare to make a similar “rant” thread based on race?

        1. FFS for a generation that loves to accuse mine of being special snowflakes, I cannot believe you are trying to say that someone complaining about Boomers is somehow equivalent to being racist. Can we replace “ok boomer” with “ok snowflake”?

        2. Using the terms “boomer,” “Karen” and “oldsters” is no different then calling out people by their race, or gender, or sexuality. It’s socially acceptable to some people, so it continues. My opinion of someone complaining about “boomers” is the same as if they said racial epithets. Stereotypical name calling just makes you look ignorant and insensitive.

          In the local area here, we’ve had a tremendous issue keeping families with young children and groups of teenagers off the playing fields, tennis courts, and track. The towns have caught young people actually climbing the fences to get at the locked tennis courts. We’ve had to move to issuing tickets to get families to stop having play dates on the fields. I guess these people have no issue with putting “boomers” who pay property taxes to pay for our schools at risk?

          My point being is that all types of different people are not fully complying with the safe at home orders. Someone’s frustration with their in-laws turned into a dump on “boomers” and “Karen.” Not cool.

          1. I cannot believe that you are saying that calling someone a boomer is the same as a racial slur. Shame on you.

          2. This comment is so wildly tone deaf. I get it if Karen/Boomer/Oldster raises your hackles but NO, calling someone a jokey derogatory slang term is absolutely not the same as calling someone race, gender, or sexuality based slur. The fact that you’re OK typing out the word “Karen” or “Boomer” and NOT the race/gender/sexuality slurs proves that. Get a grip.

          3. As Bee pointed out the fact that you are willing to type out Boomer and Karen but not the slurs you are saying are allegedly as bad proves you know that they are not in fact the same thing. You are really a special snowflake.

    12. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. These “me me me” and anti-science attitudes, especially in tandem, are so hard to deal with in people we love and are scared of losing. If you’ve said your piece, though, that’s all you can do.

    13. OP here: I appreciate everyone’s perspective.

      I do realize that our frustration is part of a bigger issue we have with anti-science attitudes – but you all are right, adults should make their own decisions, and we’ve more than made our position clear. It’s hard because we’ve also dealt with them questioning/berating us for moving abroad, and complaining that they don’t see their grandchild often enough.
      That they didn’t get sick yet is of course good, but their country was locked down for 6 weeks and is now starting to reopen schools and businesses even though there is still a significant number of new infections every day. I believe they will have to be even more prudent now.

      I’m going to try to mentally distance myself from this and adopt an attitude of “We care about you, but obviously you are making your own choices, which we don’t agree with. Hope you don’t catch it as we’d like you to be around long enough to be able to see you again.”

      1. But is it really anti science or a decision to take a different approach? I don’t begrudge my parents who probably don’t have a heck of a lot of time left who might decide to not go all out corona paranoid, not wear a mask (which were NOT recommended until recently let’s remember and not in all places), and to do what’s generally permitted. Just because you want to be extreme about it doesn’t make someone else’s assessment “anti science.” It’s called balancing – science is part of it, but so is everything else. Honestly, if they’re basically just going to the grocery store, step off.

        1. It’s anti-science to not follow public health advice. The advice is pretty clear in all jurisdictions around the world that elderly people should stay home unless necessary. It is not necessary in the case of Op’s inlaws as they had their groceries delivered. It’s not like it’s one state with a weird quirky rule. It’s widespread standard and proven in past pandemics public health advice.

          1. And this is why we cannot have a sensible situation like Sweden. It is not recommended to go out and shop unless it is necessary. It was not necessary for OP’s parents to shop. They might not get arrested for what they did but they are clearly not following public health advice.

          2. They are going to the grocery store weekly, which is not against any public health advice in the US or, as far as I know, Sweden. They are not socializing with friends or traveling for pleasure or inventing reasons to go shopping every day. There is absolutely nothing irresponsible about a weekly grocery trip. This fear-mongering that anything less than staying home 100% of the time is terrible is backfiring and making people think this lockdown is unsustainable. So they give up on trying to follow the rules at all, which is so much worse than most people trying to follow the rules even if they’re doing so imperfectly.

          3. FYI – I’m from Sweden and the situation is far from sensible. When the restriction was on gatherings of 500 people, concert organizers held events with 499 tickets. Restaurants are packed (especially the outside seating areas – you will not keep the Swedes away from their first rays of sunshine in the spring!), young people are out partying, and there’s almost no press coverage about asymptomatic transmission. So I wouldn’t hold Sweden out as a model. I’m ashamed of how many Swedes (not all, of course) think their right to party is more important than saving lives.

      2. That needs to be your attitude about everything, forever. Your kid will date people you don’t like. Who may not even be good people. Or drive too fast. Or overdrink at times. Or go down a college or career path that is not what you’d have done. There is only so much within your control and the AA creed is an important place to be as a general mindset, even if you aren’t in AA.

        1. Yup yup yup. And this is especially so with in-laws vs. parents, who are your husband’s “territory” more than yours.

      3. Fwiw, I am also a scientist and I don’t disinfect my groceries and I go weekly grocery shopping (vs online deliveries) in part because I enjoy getting out of the house. Now, I’m much lower risk than your parents and I’d probably take more precautions if I were older or had a chronic health condition, but 1) the science is *really* unclear on whether disinfecting groceries does anything, and not especially clear on whether a mask protects you (as opposed to other people) and 2) your parents are allowed to decide that their life expectancy is not that long to begin with, and they’d like to do what they can to make their remaining years as high quality as possible, and that may include time out of the house. I understand that can be a hard thing to accept as their loved one, but ultimately it is their choice and being accepting of their own mortality doesn’t make them anti-science. The only thing you have control over is how much they expose your family. You’re well within your rights to deny them access to your family unless they follow your rules. But otherwise, the sooner you let this go, the happier you will be. Regardless of whether or not COVID kills them, you don’t have that much longer with them. Think seriously about whether you want to spend that time fighting about their weekly grocery shopping.

      4. Through all of this I would add “be kind”. I was trying to get my parents to stay at home, and I was getting their groceries, etc. Both in their 80s and with other health issues. My Mom did great. My Dad was struggling, as he was so involved in the community. I found out from my Mom he did a couple of his own errands. We had a chat a couple of days later about it and came to an agreement. That was the last time I spoke to him before he died suddenly at home. I’m so glad I didn’t have an angry conversation with him. Someone was looking out for me.

        1. I’m sorry for your loss. I’m glad your last conversation with him wasn’t an argument!

    14. My very healthy 62 year old mom and 60 year old dad are following the rules. Mom grocery shops when needed, dad gets groceries delivered. Dad’s girlfriend is 55 but immunocompromised; he visits her through a window and walks her dog (she lets the dog into the garage; dog runs over to my dad and gets a long walk. Dad returns dog to garage and dog is taken inside. Yes, the dog could theoretically pick up the virus but they are trying their best and it’s better than girlfriend walking the dog herself. And the walks are basically isolated!

      My inlaws are 75 and 82. They go to grocery stores. 82 y/o FIL thinks the mask is uncomfortable and doesn’t wear it. They drag lawn chairs to their neighbors and sit exactly 6′ apart and drink wine and hang out all night long. i think to some extent they are in the “f it; if it kills me i’d rather socialize first” mindset. But we live a plane ride or grueling drive (30 driving hours– plus stops– and we have 3 young kids so this is a 3 day drive at best) away and cannot see them if they are hospitalized.

      One factor is that my parents are both in relative hot spots/ very active areas for the virus and ILs are in an area in the middle of the country where things are not quite as hot yet. But I’m sure they will be eventually.

      1. they also have a different outlook on life *because* of their age. If they’re ready to accept the risk of dying of covid complications, then no amount of lecturing them will change it. (make sure they have a DNR and medical POA!)

        1. Yes. I think we as younger folks struggle to understand that. My parents at least have gotten much farther along the road toward accepting their own mortality, and this drives a lot of their decisions.

          1. My parents are the opposite. They’re in denial. They are going to be fine despite taking risks because they skip all those toxic vaccines, because COVID19 can’t really hurt people who eat organic and exercise, and because this whole situation is overblown, which I would understand if I had as much life experience as they do.

        2. I agree. If you are 80 and know you only have a few good years left, you make different decisions than if you’re 30 and expect to have 40-50 good years. It’s actually pretty logical.
          Signed,
          My 70 year old parents are traveling internationally this summer. Is it the decision I would make for them? Nope. But I accept their right to make their own decisions and I understand their feelings that they don’t have many traveling years left and they don’t want to miss a whole year or more.

    15. I feel like this pandemic has just given a subset of people a platform to complain about the fact that other people don’t live the same amped-up life filled with anxieties that they do.
      Your in-laws went to a small store to buy nutritious food a few times and did not take a sanitizing step that public health officials have indicated is unnecessary. So they are feeding their souls and their bodies without taking major risks in the midst of a pandemic where immunity is important. Good on them.

    16. “If noncompliant behavior is this much of a stress trigger, the best thing to do is re-evaluate your own emotional commitment and engagement and recalibrate it to a level that’s more comfortable for you.”

      This is well said and I think all of us on this board should take it to heart. These same conversations about non compliance happen daily and totally spin out on threads. I’m all for it if it helps but I’m starting to think it hurts.

    17. my theory is they are in denial of their mortality at that age. my dad has been really problematic just like that AND he works in a hospital!!!! he’s not in a patient facing role but refuses PPE most days, and is still going out and about (which exposes everyone he is in contact with to some degree). i empathize and have no advice as i just can’t even talk to him about the topic without getting angry at this point

    18. Honestly, I’ve discouraged/said no to things that would have affected me (no, do not drive across the country to take care of my kids because schools are closed) and encouraged online shopping, but they are adults and I don’t have the kind of relationship with them where any of us are receptive to being commanded.

      My parents didn’t take all of this very seriously until they took it seriously. My in-laws are in normal times pretty much paranoid hypochondriacs, so they actually have been taking this seriously. But they still do stupid things (four stores in one day, won’t do mail order pharmacy). They are adults. I can encourage and state my opinions, but I can’t make them do anything.

      1. This. Exactly this. You have control over how they interact with your family. Beyond that, all you can do is offer suggestions and move on if they refuse to accept them.

    19. Sounds cynical, but I long ago gave up trying to change family members’ behaviors, no matter how destructive they are. You can say your piece and move on, that’s pretty much it. They are their own people, and really critically, you can’t really pick who your family is.
      Also, I do feel your frustration. My mom is having her chiropractor come to her house since his office is closed. My parents are early 80s, and my dad is immunocompromised. I’ve told her this is a horrible idea and she shouldn’t do it, but there is not going to be any way I can convince her that she doesn’t “need” this treatment, so I just have to let it go.

    20. The irony of this post is that there actually is some science behind the idea that the virus can spread via air conditioning air flows, and fresh air is better for reducing airborne transmission. Check out the study from China about how air conditioning spread the virus to 9 people in one restaurant. Of course it doesn’t mean a business is totally safe just because they don’t use air conditioning. But it’s kind of funny that you act all high and mighty accusing them of being “anti-science” and misinformed when actually their arguments are more grounded in science than yours. Like, say, disinfecting your groceries. There’s no scientific evidence that’s necessary or even helpful.

  3. Similar to a question posted here yesterday, any recs for a DC trusts and estates attorney to do basic estate planning with a living trust option. I’ve gotten a quote of $3500 from one place, which seems high. I’d love recommendations for people you’ve worked with!

    1. Just for reference I paid 4.5k in the DC suburbs for a similar estate plan and received quotes from several different attorneys that were all in the 3-5k range. So while its a lot, I don’t think its because the person you asked is especially expensive.

    2. We paid $4K in DC several years ago. I still feel like it was very high for what we received. What’s particularly frustrating is that when I called to ask about making changes I was quoted $750 to update beneficiaries. That seems really high to me, but I’d like a reality check if I’m wrong. I’m trying to decide if I should shop around for a smaller practice that will be able to do updates over the years or if this is just what I’m going to be dealing with in the future.

      1. Updating beneficiaries is a (small) PITA. You have to get the client to give you permission to talk to the IRA plan administrator (which usually takes a couple of tries), then you have to have a call with the client to fill out the form, to make sure what they say they want is actually what they want (not always the case), then client has to sign (usually with multiple reminders), then you have to submit to the administrator. So totally reasonable for it to take a few hours of time.

    3. Yes, go to Don Marlais at Lincoln Park Associates. His rates are closer to 2-3K. He’s on the Hill but helped us recently in NoVa. Came highly recommended and I later found out other friends of ours have utilized his firm’s services. I don’t have any financial stake in his firm, of course. Just recently used his services and appreciated his efficiency and knowledge. He’s a straight shooter.

  4. My company just did about 50 layoffs. We are all WFH and my department (of which I am a manager of) has been consistently busy during the quarantine. I am hourly and regularly work overtime. I’m not so much scared about being laid off (not yet at least), but I am wondering if I should scale back on the overtime. It has never been an issue ever, but I don’t want it to become an issue when it’s too late. I definitely have enough work to justify the overtime. Any advice?

    1. This sounds like a reasonable question to ask your manager about – “hey, in light of the circumstances, I’m wondering what the company’s position is on overtime. I’m happy to keep working at this pace, but if the company would prefer to de-prioritize a few things to keep overtime costs down, let’s talk about what makes sense to defer.”

      1. This. The company may prefer to keep the people working overtime because OT is cheaper than another hire, or people working OT are demonstrating their commitment and work ethic. I wouldn’t try to guess which side they come down on.

          1. Yes, but they also prefer to hire one person instead of two people. If the OP is not getting her work done efficiently or not properly prioritising her workload, her managers will not be happy. If the OP misses deadlines because she doesn’t want to work OT, her employer will not be happy. If other managers routinely work OT and the company values a workaholic culture, the OT would be a smaller issue than departing from company norms.

  5. I started dating someone in October. His job requires travel so we saw each other when he was in my state (roughly every other week). My job is demanding and he’s been extremely understanding. He has been out of my state for 8 weeks due to covid but booked a flight back in mid May. He plans to self isolate for 2 weeks before setting me. The trouble is – I don’t really miss him. He’s a good conversationalist, so it’ll be different not texting or chasing, but I don’t think I want to date him further. Is this crazy? How do you break up in quarantine – tell him before he flies back, or wait another month to see him and decide?

    1. Girl what?!?! You tell him right now before he undertakes risky travel and 14 days of isolation to see you!!! You call him tonight and say “John, I’m so sorry but I’ve been reflecting on things and we need to break up.”

    2. Awkward but do it now! You would allow this man to disrupt his life to see you in person, including 2 weeks of isolation, only to break up with him at the end of it? Please do the kind thing and tell him now.

      1. +1
        Also, I would find the mental overhang of knowing I was going to break up with someone in over a month to be really draining that whole time.

    3. I didn’t clarify – he is not coming back just for me, his primary residence is in my state (his family is here)! He owns a couple houses so has been at the other house. But I will need the advice nonetheless :)

      1. Advice is the same – you are just not into him, so let him go. There’s someone out there for him that will be into him and you’re holding him back from meeting that person. And holding yourself back from meeting someone you’re really into and really want to be with. Script above is good; this is never an easy conversation but it is necessary.

  6. Just want to comment that as a size 14/16 with a defined waist and junk in the trunk, the Eloquii Kady pants are magical. I have several pairs in different colors and they’re my go-to pants for work. It’s rare I can find pants that fit in the hips and seat without gaping at the waist, and the Kadys deliver.

    1. I have suggested those pants tons of times and everyone I know that has bought them has agreed that they are great.

  7. Would you cancel major moving plans given the unknowns right now, or cross your fingers and go ahead with it? Basically, I was about to make a leap for self actualization to live in CA because I’ve always wanted to; and now I feel like I’ve been thrown into survival mode which makes it feel safer to stay where I am. Right before lockdowns, my husband and I had just finally decided to move with our kid across the country from the Midwest to the Bay Area. I have a great job offer I accepted out there and the offer is still open. Hubby was accepted into a part time MBA program for fall. His job has an office out there he can transfer to. We worked on this plan for three years (I’m a lawyer and had to take the CA Bar, we had to scope out schools for our kid’s unique needs, and we are both at a crucial stage of our careers.) But out of nowhere, like so many people, our plans were completely blown apart. And here, we have pretty secure jobs and everything we need. I feel so conflicted on whether to move. I am a lawyer who researches and analyzes everything to death, and now I can’t properly plan because it’s so uncertain. On days I feel optimistic, I want to go ahead. On days I feel pessimistic, I want to cancel the move. This is why I don’t make decisions with my emotions! But it’s clear I won’t have enough information to make this decision in time (we’d have to do it this summer before school starts.) My new job is flexible on my start date, but not able to support remote work from here, so to take the job, I have to move.

    1. I’m so confused about how your plans have been blown apart or what the problem is. You have an open job offer. Take it, and move.

      1. Same? From your post it seems like plans are still in tact?
        If anything maybe you’ll get a small window of “relative” discount house buying when shelter in place ends and maybe there’s a flood of inventory! (It will still be expensive as eff but *maybe* less so than before?).

        1. Plans don’t have to change, I guess everything feels stuck right now and life this summer & fall won’t be like I pictured it. For instance no beaches this summer, and fall semester for my kid in a new school (and my husband’s MBA) having to be partially or totally virtual. But hearing from unbiased strangers on here helps me articulate what is actually changed and it’s just my confidence, I guess! I feel like the pandemic is really stressful and adding the stress of moving right now is a lot. But I should probably trust the decisions we made before the pandemic.

          1. If it helps to know… I live in the Bay Area with kids and even in non-pandemic times we go to the beach…. a handful of times a year? At best? The ocean water here is cold all the time. Certainly too much for me to get in. Also, there are people on the beaches even right now and I imagine will be even more so when you get here. Right now it’s perhaps ill advisedly so (but honestly not always, there are parts where people are at them but honestly social distanced) but later perhaps fine.

            I know, that is probably a very minor part of what this is all about though. :)

          2. Good point about beaches not being a big feature of NorCal life :) especially since we’ll be so busy adjusting. The major change in plans is timing. I was supposed to start May 1. Now it’s maybe July 1, maybe Aug 1. Also, we have to sell the house we’re in and that may take longer, but it’ll still sell because we’re in a good location.

          3. We go to the beach in the Bay Area once a year. It’s not that close and it’s so cold. We plan beach trips to places with reasonable water temperature.

          4. Yeah I lived in the Bay Area for 5 years and I went swimming at the beach…once? I took a surf lesson in Pacifica. Then we went to Santa Cruz maybe 3 or 4 times, but we spent our time on the boardwalk or kayaking on the water, not lying on the beach. Beaches in NorCal are nothing like beaches on the East Coast (even Maine has warmer water in the summer than Northern California because of the currents).

          5. Thanks for the points of reference. I know it won’t be a lay-on-the-beach vibe, but I do want to eat seafood at Half Moon Bay, walk near the ocean, try beginner surfing lessons on long weekends, hang out in Santa Cruz, go to aquariums like in Monterey. What months of the year are beaches most attractive there? Where would you go in driving distance for surfing especially?

    2. I think you make the move. You’ve put a lot into this and you’ve accepted the job. I think this is classic cold feet.

    3. We canceled moving plans but did not already have an offer, just several interviews lined up. It did not seem like the right time to drastically slash our income and leave what will hopefully be relatively stable jobs. There is no one right answer though.

    4. Do it. This is your over-analyzing speaking. Great quality for a lawyer, poor quality for a decision-maker in uncertain times.

      You’ve done due diligence and thought it all through. Take the risk.

    5. I’d make the move, but ask new job about WFH options. It seems like the Bay Area corporate mentality has been much more proactive about safety and limiting exposure, maybe one reason why there weren’t as many cases there.

      1. +1 but I’d worry less about WFH, the Bay Area has been ahead of that curve well before Covid, many companies sent people home a few weeks before SIP orders officially came down, and were able to because WFH is just part of the culture here already. The shock is doing it with full houses, not the actual idea.

        1. Yeah, the firm already had said they accommodate reasonable WFH flexibility. Good to know that the way they talk up WFH is not just lip service.

    6. No thoughts on your bigger issues, but I’m so glad I live in Santa Clara County right now.

      Our health officer, Dr. Cody, has been making really wise, enforceable orders. Our hospitals have plenty of room despite having a lot of the early Covid activity. In my neighborhood, there is largely very good compliance.

      It’s relatively easy to get high quality groceries delivered—no need to rely on Instacart and the like.

    7. Do the move. The Bay Area and California are trying to make science based decisions and so being here during the pandemic will help you protect your family. Put that analytical mind to work planning the move.

      1. That’s true, the leadership in the Bay Area has really been great from what I can tell! Thanks, all, for the input and encouragement.

      2. Yes, I’m in So Cal but have been quite pleased with our state and local government response.

    8. I’m in exactly your shoes right now, and we’re proceeding with them move. Moving cross-country from the South to the Bay Area, both husband and I have job offers that we’re excited to take. Our lease in the Bay Area starts May 1. It’s not ideal to be traveling in the time of COVID, but we’ll just wear masks on the plane and keep social distance as best we can. Moving is a permitted activity, so I don’t think you should restrict yourself beyond what the government is requiring.

      1. Congratulations! That’s really positive for your family, and you’re right, these are essential activities we are allowed to do cautiously. Where in the Bay Area are you moving? Would love to keep in touch about your experiences moving as you’ll go a month or two before us.

    9. From one over-thinker to another… stop focusing on “should i” and transition to “How will I’.
      Your plans have no blown up, you have a job offer, your husband got accepted to school, you passed the bar, your kid’s school is planned out. The question now is how to get there.
      Is your house ready to go on the market? Start getting it ready if it’s not! Tell your new job you want a firm start date. August 1 sounds great, enough time to get your house on the market and sold and get moved out there, but early enough for some adjustment time before the new school year.

      1. This is where my thinking has gone after sleeping on it, thanks so much for taking the time to confirm it :) House projects have progressed greatly while we’ve been home, so we are almost ready to list! And I’m emotionally ready to begin the new phase of adjustment.

  8. Reposting from yesterday as advised by other commenters— Does anyone have advice on divorcing your spouse when you are the primary breadwinner? My husband has been physically and emotionally abusive for years. He never worked while I made my way up to Biglaw partner (also never contributing to household chores/cooking and we have no kids), but he spent all the money I made, mostly buying sports cars. Finally left him and he and his lawyers are making the divorce hell and I have to pay for everything, all the experts and attorneys fees (that they are driving up of course). It feels so unfair but so far the judge has decided already in his favor once that instead of selling a sports car to pay for divorce expenses, I should just pay for all expenses of the divorce out of pocket, while still paying temporary support and the mortgage for the house he is living in still, along with my own living expenses. At this point my savings are gone and I’m living paycheck to paycheck (it’s a large paycheck but it still goes out to pay lawyers, experts, and two households’ expenses). I know divorce is no-fault in most states (including mine) but how can it be that someone who abused me now gets to financially ruin me (all while still sitting at home not working)? It feels so unjust. Any advice for someone who knows how to successfully combat this? I do believe my lawyer is doing the best she can but I feel so defeated and like the system is rigged against women who are breadwinners. I’m also very worried the final hearing will be pushed off by COVID and this will drag out even longer. Really hoping someone has an answer out there, or at least something I can advocate for change in the laws going forward for others.

    1. I have nothing useful but would like to offer you virtual hugs from an Internet stranger! This all sounds awful and you sound incredibly strong.

      1. +1 – and it sounds like you are going to be so much happier without his deadweight. Big hugs.

    2. Did you pay for a cleaner, etc? If so, you may be able to prove that he wasn’t doing house upkeep and therefore wasn’t a material support factor in your making it to Partner status?

      1. This. Make sure you document every time you ordered take out or had a house cleaner. Dig out every email you ever sent him trying to get him to do more share of the housework. Document that he did nothing to help you achieve partner status.

        Lastly, no matter how much this costs in legal fees, the money is going to the lawyers not him and try to think of it as buying your freedom. He will continue to try and be awful throughout this process, expect that and know that it is only about his need to control. Start teletherapy so you have somewhere to process all this.

        Lastly, you made partner in biglaw while in an abusive situation? you’re a rockstar and a much stronger person than him. You got this.

        1. “Make sure you document every time you ordered take out or had a house cleaner.”

          This sounds impossible, no?

          1. Credit card statements and check registers. I know someone who divorced in 2018 and went through check registers from the 1980s to disprove ex-spouse’s allegations.

    3. In my jurisdiction, equal split is the rule but you can ask to depart from that if one spouse failed to provide a contribution to the marriage, especially for shorter mariages. If your spouse didn’t work at all, is this an option where you are? Also, hugs. I’m getting a divorce in a somewhat similar situation although we have agreed to an amicable split (so far… nothing is final yet) and it’s really frustrating on top of an already hard situation.

    4. I’m in CA. Not an attorney. One of my close office chums divorced her cheating, deadbeat husband and had to pay him alimony plus child support, even though he always had excuses as to why he couldn’t take the kids. She hated it and it made her miserable, and poor, for a number of years. She worked her ass off and he basically got half. It sucked.

      But the alimony expired when he eventually got remarried, and she built back up her savings. Her kids, despite the fact that they idolized their dad as a “Disney dad” who was all fun and never made them do their homework on the rare occasions he took them, now as adults see him for who he really is.

      She just retired and is now traveling the world. She bought a new, smaller house right after the divorce and finally it is paid off. She’s having a great time. And her biggest happiness is that she doesn’t have to be married to that a-hole.

      Someday you will feel the same.

      1. Yes, this! In most situations, the responsible, hardworking ex-spouse is able to pick up the pieces and build a good life, and the deadbeat ends up SOL. It is not even a breadwinner thing: I have seen women who work two jobs to make ends meet eventually buy a house and have a nice retirement.

      2. This is why I have resisted the urge to get a man who I can’t trust. After my ex, I swore I would be more selective. So even though I have no one to keep me warm at night, I have a down comforter that does not vomit, huff and puff on top of me with bad breathe, and eat all my food. It’s a trade off, but I am so over needing to have somone with a peni$ in order to feel validated. FOOEY!

    5. The move I’ve seen work is offer something that has a present day value that’s big enough to be enticing but less than paying alimony and staying tied over time, and resolve things in mediation. For example, if you have a house to sell, offer him a bigger percentage than half, a chunk of stock or savings, the car, and no alimony (this will obviously depend on your assets, but that basic idea). Get him to agree he doesn’t touch your retirement assets, and make a clean break. Instead of going strictly by a 50/50 divide under the law, figure out what he’d take, write the big check and be done with it. It absolutely sucks but it’s worth it.

      1. This for sure. Avoid anything like alimony that might allow him to have some continued contact with you. If possible, get him to agree to a number through your lawyer without making it clear that you don’t want to pay alimony. Then offer that amount as a lump sum. It will kill his case in court because then he’s basically fighting about how to get it paid out and anyone looking to maintain contact with an ex-spouse is going to get major side-eye from the judge and it will harm his case and his lawyer will tell him that.

      2. Yes, this is a good point. I was in a similar position to you and the thing that saved me was that he really REALLY wanted the house, and because it had been mine before marriage the only way he was going to get it was if I agreed. I was able to get him to waive spousal support and his interest in my pension in exchange for letting him buy out my interest in the house. My attorney and his thought I was nuts to drive such a hard bargain but I knew him and I knew what would motivate him, and I stuck to my guns, and I was right. So if you have any leverage like that, use it for all it’s worth. I agree that writing that big check is TOTALLY worth it to be over and done with it.

    6. Wait what? As a not-american I can not fathom a legal system in which an abuser gets anything in a divorce. In my country proof of abuse basically nullifies any request for alimony.

      1. There probably isn’t “proof” of abuse. If there were police involvement for domestic abuse, restraining orders, etc. those things would make a difference even just in so far as they would add “colour” and make the court unsympathetic to the husband. I expect OP would have avoided documenting the abuse, particularly with police, because she was ashamed and concerned about her reputation at a Biglaw partner. And that’s just for physical abuse; verbal, emotional or financial abuse are extraordinarily hard to “prove”.

    7. I know this varies by state, but I’m surprised he is getting alimony and you paying his legal fees when he is willfully unemployed. Can you negotiate rehabilitative alimony, as in it’s just for a year or so while he “gets on his feet”? Set up as automatic transfers so you never have to deal with him again. What is your attorney doing to prove he is willfully unemployed? How is this not a consideration? can costs be allocated based on his earning potential since he is willfully unemployed? I know it’s going to be harder to prove it’s “willful” during a pandemic, but sheesh!
      btw, as someone who has come out of the other side, divorce can truly be the best thing to happen to you. I promise some day, this will feel worth all the money :)

    8. Sending you hugs. You’re doing the right thing! Commiseration. My bff also made big law partner while her husband spent her money on escorts. She also had to pay him alimony, sell the house, and move into an apartment. A few years later, she is so much happier! You deserve much better, someone who respects you and your hard work!

      1. Yeah just have to reiterate again that it’s totally worth all the financial pain to be free of these horrible guys! Best of luck and big hugs to you, OP!

    9. Thanks, everyone, for both the advice and the pep talk! Appreciate hearing from others about similar experiences, this is an awesome community. Definitely some good ideas here I’m going to try to implement. (FYI we do have an expert opining as to his ability to work, but the differential is still quite big compared to a big law salary, resulting in a very high alimony calculation under the default rules in my state).

  9. How did you improve your writing? I’m a lawyer and would like to use some downtime to finally understand, practice, and implement Strunk & white or other resources. Tips?

    1. I think the best thing is to pay attention to the pattern you’re getting in edits to your work — are your sentences too long? Do you get edits to make things clearer? Do long words get shortened to shorter words? Does your case law discussion get shortened or lengthened? Use edits as a chance to learn what to do differently next time.

    2. Write, write, write. See if there are spots that you can submit brief legal articles for publication. Improves your writing and identifies you as a thought leader. If your Bar has a publication, see if you can volunteer for the editorial board–this will give you opportunities to write your own as well as edit others work. Lastly, improve the quality of what you are reading–New Yorker, Atlantic, Economist–and classic literature. If you read quality, you will write quality.

    3. Purdue Uni has an online writing lab, or OWL, with some guides/tips. I think Strunk & White is pretty outdated and sometimes promotes incorrect grammar, so you might just choose a current, more accessible guide from the bookstore.

    4. I wouldn’t listen to anyone other than Garner, Guberman, and Grammar Girl at this point.
      Signed, A Designated Final Brief Editor

      1. +1 for Garner. Look at law-specific resources for writing briefs – it’s a different animal than other forms of writing (though obviously some principles are similar). I also liked Messing’s Art of Advocacy for examples of killer briefs. For general questions (what’s hyphenated?) my firm uses Chicago Manual of Style.

    5. I’ve seen Style: 10 Lessons in Clarity and Grace recommended as a better alternative to Strunk & White.

      I find the Chicago Manual is the most helpful style guide when it comes to grammar and usage. I also read their entertaining periodical Q&As and learn from their advice on the issues that come up.

      For checking specific usage, I often use wordandphrase.info instead of a dictionary (the site is difficult and counterintuitive to use at first, but it’s very powerful once you figure it out). Even as someone who grew up speaking English, I think of “written English” as a second language that I’m learning over time (and I feel free to learner’s dictionaries and other ESL resources to help).

      1. Written English for a specific audience, too! I write differently for internal committees than I do for general internal communications, than I do for official policies, than I do for emails for people I already have a rapport with! It’s code switching, really, I think?

        1. Yes! One of the things I like about the wordandphrase site is that you can see samples of usage by context (so academic usage is a separate data set from journalistic, for example). It’s hard to find a dictionary that gets into that much detail.

    6. I’ve been enjoying the Elevate app. There are lots of games related to punctuation, word usage, etc. Obviously less of an impact than studying usage guides, but an enjoyable daily diversion with some mental stimulation.

  10. When are people comfortable having family come stay after the stay at home orders have ended?

    For context, we have a new baby in a state that has done a good job of flattening the curve and has good leadership. We strictly comply with the stay at home order and will continue to, but it seems like we may reopen at least somewhat in June. Both sets of grandparents are a plane ride away – one in a hotspot as essential workers (so going to work, shopping for elderly family), the other in a low-risk area where they’ve been quarantining. Both sets of grandparents are just desperate to meet the baby and would hop on a plane tomorrow if I ok’d it. Husband defers to my judgement but would like to have them out here as soon as permitted. I’m going to discuss with baby’s pediatrician (although they have not been too concerned given what is known about the virus and children thus far), but what would you do? Allow grandparents to come on essentially the soonest date permitted, or push them back a bit?

    FWIW, I would love to see them and they are all helpful lovely people but I’m trying to think through more rationally.

    1. My answer changed when I learned that the grandparents would have to fly. Is it possible for them to drive instead?

      Without knowing all the specifics (where you are, where they are, everyone’s health, etc) I would say *generally speaking* it would be the health of the grandparent, not your family, that I would worry about. And I would defer to your pediatrician about the health of the baby.

      1. For the quarantining parents, very unlikely that they could fly given age/driving ability/distance. Possible for the non-quarantining parents to drive, though would likely be a strain.

        And I hear you – I am more worried about the health of the grandparents rather than the baby. The hard thing is, I seem to be the only one worried about that! I can relate to a lot of posters on this board whose parents aren’t taking it very seriously – even the quarantining set would have been willing to throw in the towel and fly up here a month ago if I had let them.

    2. I would have the quarantining parents come first. You are less likely to get the virus from them, and since you have been quarantining, you are unlikely to give it to them. However, you couod get it from the other set of parents, and then give it to the quarantining parents.

      1. That’s a good point! We will focus on the quarantining parents coming first (whenever that may be).

  11. When would you be comfortable having cleaning help come into your house? We’re struggling over here but I get nervous because she is in so many different houses.

      1. This is unhelpful. Obviously she can clean her own house but is probably juggling 900 million other tasks. Most people who outsource cleaning do so not because they can’t clean but to free up time to do other things and most people find themselves with even less time during this pandemic.

      2. No, I don’t give myself dental cleanings or do my own taxes either. I pay a professional. When shelter in place order is lifted, I will ask my person to come back.

        1. Yea I can understand you don’t do your own dental cleanings and your taxes might be complicated, so understandable you can’t do those yourself. You are far too important to be bothered with cleaning your own home so this is clearly a crisis for you. You need the hive’s input on whether to ‘allow’ your cleaning person to enter your home…..self centered and privileged.

          1. Anon at 11:38, I am sorry you’re having a rough day, but go eat a muffin and take a walk. Posting things like this won’t help you and they don’t help anyone else either.

          2. I don’t need the hive’s input. I’m not OP. I’m responding to an obnoxious and unhelpful reply to the OP. I said I would ask our cleaning person to come back when the SIP is lifted.

          3. Maybe you’ll have more fun on 4chan, anon at 11:38, if you’re sick of all of us. Truly don’t understand why you interpret outsourcing– which is done for the sake of efficiency–as the character flaw of self-importance.

          4. For all you know, she’s an essential worker on the frontlines who is bone-tired, and/or dealing with child care / homeschooling, caring for elderly loved ones, etc. She didn’t ask for a referendum on the merits of cleaning one’s house. She asked what people’s thoughts were on allowing cleaning help back in — which is, after all, “restarting the economy” in a sense, and requires balancing of the health of the OP and the health and safety of the cleaning person and her family. It’s a reasonable question.

    1. I think this is a decision you have to make based on your personal risk tolerance – is anyone in your household immunocompromised or otherwise have pre-existing conditions? What are the ages? Do you regularly interact with anyone with those criteria? Obviously if you’re sick, cancel and still pay her if possible, but it’s really a decision you have to make (once your state permits it, of course).

      1. Pure ImaginationI would make the decision the other way around. Do you regularly interact with other people? If so, you may expose your housekeeper, who is a lot less likely to be low income, possibly undocumented, possibly living in a home with says:

        I would make the decision the other way around. Do you regularly interact with other people? If so, you may expose your housekeeper, who is a lot more likely to be low income, possibly undocumented, possibly living in a home with many other people, and a lot less able to stay home from her job. Think about her risk and society’s risk based on how YOUR activities would affect HER – and then how her interaction with other high earners, some of whom probably aren’t social distancing, would affect you.

        1. Isn’t that kind of paternalistic? Housekeepers are capable of making their own decisions.

          1. Of course have a conversation with her, but the power dynamics between employer and employee are obvious here.

          2. So she stays unemployed because we should just assume she’s incapable of making her own choices?

          3. Power dynamics? Maybe in certain parts of the world, but in places like the US and Canada a lot of cleaners run their own businesses and would be offended.

          4. @Anon 12:03 my MIL used to be a house cleaner, she is a white American in a large city and owned her own business. I’m sure her clients would have said that she was middle class, well paid etc, but after all the overhead was taken off my MIL was poor, pretty close to the poverty line infact. She would never say this aloud but house cleaning is just not lucrative.

        2. Pure Imagination, you are the worst. You take every situation and twist it into an exhausting, virtue-signaling exercise. I think your handle probably refers your mind constantly churning out negative Karen/anti-capitalist vibes on every situation.

          If your hypothetical is accurate, putting the inherent condescension of your assumption aside, consider that the housekeep might want to to work and be paid since she’s a *poor* *undocumented*immigrant.

          1. The level of condescension in her comments across the board is appalling. She seems to think anyone who is poor is incapable of reasoning and its her job to make their choices for them. Apparently she also thinks higher income people also inherently don’t social distance. Her posts are insanity – she’s basically an Ellen level troll at this point.

          2. Yeah…. you and LaurenB make every thread about COVID into a battle of who’s right. Not with each other. With everyone else.

          3. If you guys want to see the worst in every post of mine (and ignore every kind thing I’ve ever posted), that’s on you. When someone asks for advice, it’s okay for us to post different opinions. If you don’t like mine, feel free to ignore it.

        3. You are literally the worst. Let her housekeeper make her own choices. Make sure she knows you’ll still pay her if she’s feeling sick to make sure she knows she won’t be financially penalized for being sick, but LET HER MAKE HER OWN CHOICES.

          Pure Imagination, it’s not your job to make choices for her. It’s amazingly paternalistic. You are the worst through this whole thing and I would literally never want to be your friend in real life.

          1. I’m not taking sides in the argument, but yes, this post is a little much. Also, the last sentence “I would literally never want to be your friend in real life” is super funny to me b/c that’s literally close to what my preschoolers say as the ultimate burn (“you’re not invited to my birthday!”). Let’s try to be better than the preschoolers, ya’all.

          2. I’m not PureImagination but you all are piling on cruelly. She offered her opinion, you don’t like it. And you respond by calling her “the worst”? I hope this is not how you treat people in real life.

          3. Yeah, sorry, I overreacted – PureImagination, I still think your responses are overly paternalistic and some of the worst examples of virtue signaling I’ve ever seen, but I was too mean. I’m just very frustrated at you (and LaurenB) for turning a place I used to turn to for reasonable advice from other successful, professional, awesome women into a who is quarantining better contest. It’s exhausting, and this used to be one of my favorite corners of the internet.

          4. Seriously? How am I “quarantining better” than anyone else? I’m sick over the people who have lost businesses / jobs, I feel terrible for my friends who are juggling child care and work-at-home situations, I don’t like being stuck at home any more than anyone else. I don’t do anything less than what the latest public health recommendations / guidelines are … but it’s not like I do anything *more* than what they recommend either.

          5. I thinkmany of us the HIVE is going bonkers over the stay in place rules. But that is not an excuse for forgetting the meaning of civility. Of course, everyone has different opinions, and of course some people’s situation’s are different, but as all of this may be true, should not we all just learn not to be snippy at each other? If we all look around, we can find the positives. Yesterday, I saw the Airforce and Navy jets flying over Lenox Hill and Mount Sinai hospitals to cheer on our health care workers. They were so loud and so much acting together — cooperating to give a great show to all of us. Now we have a great memory of how these pilots work together for the benefit of all of us! So let’s be civil to each other, and when this is over, we can then go back out and live our lives. And if that means having our cleaneing ladies come back or not, that is an Individual decision for all of us, with no right or wrong decisions. Kat, Kate and Elizabeth can police our responses on this site to make sure we do not get snippy at each other without them telling us to lighten up. Thank you for listening.

          1. Yes, they should all just starve because they are sub-human. (/s in case that isn’t obvious)

    2. I had our cleaning lady come last week. I provided a mask and several pairs of gloves for her. I stayed in my office while she cleaned elsewhere and then moved when she needed to clean the office (which she did last). After she left, I wiped down all the surfaces I touch most with Lysol wipes (full wipe-down of desk, bathroom faucets, door handles, etc.). It felt somewhat high risk, but I’m living alone and am healthy, so I just accepted the risk.

    3. Repost – part of my reply went into the name field and is now stuck.

      I would make the decision the other way around. Do you regularly interact with other people? If so, you may expose your housekeeper, who is a lot more likely to be low income, possibly undocumented, possibly living in a home with many other people, and a lot less able to stay home from her job. Think about her risk and society’s risk based on how YOUR activities would affect HER – and then how her interaction with other high earners, some of whom probably aren’t social distancing, would affect you.

    4. Yes, if my cleaning lady wants to come back, we would let her. I would make sure that no one is home when she comes. I have been doing my best but with 2 little boys, we definitely need a professional lol!

    5. We’ve had ours come twice so far. I asked her if she was comfortable with coming, and since she was, I actually left my house and did yard work for my parents while DH was gone at work but I recognize this is not a possibility for most people.

      1. We’re doing the same. I’m still going to work (mostly alone in my office all day) and my husband goes and hides out alone in his office while she’s there. We asked her if she wanted to come and she is fine with it given that we are not there.

    6. I’m wondering the same thing, and I think “not yet” but I reevaluate every 2 weeks when she’s scheduled to come. Yes, I can clean my own house, but on top of full time work and being a single parent, I’m not doing any more than the minimum to keep things sanitary.

    7. Today. We have had the same person cleaning weekly for us for a couple of years now. None of us are high risk and both sides felt okay with the arrangement. My state is one of the ones slowly opening up. And yes, we’ve paid her full rate to stay home for the past 2 months and had regular check-ins about social distancing and her workload. I think this has to be a risk calculation for each person.

      1. My cleaning service has come. I was asked to be in a room that would not be cleaned and not leave that room. The cleaners wore masks and gloves while they cleaned.

    8. I would like to have them come, but I can’t figure out the logistics. My husband and I WFH and we have a nanny currently. Neither my husband nor I can just leave the house for 2 hours in the middle of the day and go for a walk and not work. So I guess we could hide in the office and not clean that, but that doesn’t solve the nanny/baby issue because they can’t really leave for that long either. Maybe if it was a nice day they could but if it rains that won’t work at all. We have a dog and a cat so I’ve been cleaning, but the bathrooms could use a good scrub which I just don’t have time to do.

      1. Same, not sure how to get out of our cleaning person’s way. Hoping when SIP ends in my state we can find a way to work out of one bedroom and the basement and move as needed.

      1. Same. We have a lovely woman come every two weeks, she wears a mask, and we go outside or in the basement while she cleans the two main floors. Neither me nor DH are high risk, and since it’s the same woman, we feel ok with it – especially because having to clean ourselves would cause some marital tension (ie, I would end up doing most of it and then get annoyed).

      2. Same.

        P.S. for folks following along, not all housecleaners are undocumented immigrants living in squalor with a houseful of low-income people. What a prejudicial assumption to make.

        1. Sure, that’s what I said – ALL housecleaners live in “squalor” and are undocumented. Great reading comprehension!

          1. You did not make a sweeping statement, but you also said it in a way that may get under people’s skin. If you had said that a housekeeper who gets sick does not have sick leave (being an independent contractor or small business owner), ergo, consider how likely you are to transmit the virus to her, that would be much leas controversial.

          2. You definitely seem to default to whatever social-justice warrior description of people fits whatever narrative you’ve chosen to push that day. And I say that as someone who self-identifies as a liberal. The virtue-signaling gets really old.

          3. No, but you implied they’re incapable of making their own decisions, which honestly, is worst. I’m liberal, but you are an absolute parody of the worst parts of liberalism with a splash of very aggressive paternalism. I could basically predict your rude responses to every comment on this board. It’s ridiculous.

          4. “I could basically predict your rude responses to every comment on this board. It’s ridiculous.”

            I’m starting to think this person is intentionally trolling for this reason. Every response is so over-the-top and I have also gotten to the point where I see a question or comment and can pretty much predict what Pure Imagination is going to say in response. Yuck. Enough already.

          5. I think you are probably a kind and thoughtful person who wants to do right by everyone, but it seems like you might be over-anticipating problems on behalf of others.

          6. Over-anticipating problems hits the nail on the head. PI has a lot of anxiety that she likes to dump out here.

      3. Same – we use a company that is taking serious measures (taking temperatures of all employees every morning, all employees wear different masks and gloves at each house, all supplies are completely disinfected between each house, etc.). I remove everything off the counters and kitchens out our of the shower/bath before they come to minimize them touching things, as well, and then disinfect all handles, counters, and door handles once they leave. I’m the only one home when they come and for at least 4 hours afterward, and the extra prep work takes me maybe 20 minutes to do, which is well worth continuing to have our house professionally cleaned and keeping them working.

    9. We are struggling along without ours, and without some of our usual cleaning supplies. But it feels safer for everyone involved.

      1. Oh, hand wringing, hand wringing…poor privileged you who can afford to pay others to clean up after them….struggling along without your house cleaner. How are you possibly surviving?

        1. Hey anon at 11:43? We get it. You’ve made your point – you think people who have housecleaners are awful. Probably time to move on with your day.

          1. Okay, it is true that’s not how that meme works, but nobody here knows how any pop culture or internet culture references work, like, ever.

          1. Right? We should be much more sensitive to everyone’s first world white girl problems.

        2. Dude, I’m poor and even I think you’re being a jerk. We get it. You hate rich people. Point made, move along.

        3. Are you not aware you are on a board of “overachieving chicks,” many of whom have the means to pay a housekeeper? Is there something inherently wrong with hiring someone to clean your house? I’m cleaning my own house right now because that’s how I roll, but it’s not more virtuous; it’s just the choice I’m more comfortable with right now.

        4. If you hate wealthy people so much, you should probably stop spending so much your limited and precious time on a forum that specifically caters to women in high-level white collar jobs. Cleaners and other domestic staff are often a key part of what makes a lot of the women on here’s lifestyle sustainable. It clearly bothers you, so maybe take some time off for a while.

        5. Wow, just realized you responded to me. My Big Law salary helps keep a housekeeper, a gardener, a pet sitter, a dry cleaner and a local Thai restaurant in business. I also pay over 30 percent of it to the government in taxes, so I have likely payed for part of your local highway improvements. Cheers.

    10. We stopped our biweekly clearer coming in mid-march. We’ve paid her and done our best to keep things tidy-ish in the meantime. It’s not perfect, but we can manage especially if we let the standards slide. We both are still working and have 3 young kids. I’m thinking we’ll have the cleaners back once nonessential business open– maybe. We are all at home, so anything that gets cleaned will immediately get messed up again anyway.

      We’re in MA and nobody in my house is high risk.

    11. My cleaning lady continues to come. I never cancelled her, but have been paying her double because I can afford it and a lot of her houses cancelled and she needs the money. I don’t go anywhere, so I am not worried about exposing her to anything. I run disinfectant wipes over all hard surfaces when she leaves.

    12. I found out my cleaning lady was working as an InstaShopper on her off days!! I fired her on the spot.

      1. Well good for you! How dare she try to make some $$ another way?? Who does she think she is? Doesn’t she know that she has to wait for you to allow her to clean your house for meager pay?

    13. We live in an area where cases are still climbing and my husband’s an essential worker. I don’t trust that he hasn’t brought the virus home. I’ve had our housekeeper for years and I care for her tremendously. I don’t know the details of her financial and insurance situation, but I know she lives with her extended family – I wouldn’t want to be the cause of it spreading to her or her family. I’ve continued to pay her this whole time.

    14. Is it even allowed in your state? Only commercial cleaning is “essential” in my state, so we couldn’t have them if we wanted to.

    15. I didn’t ask mine to come this month, but she asked to come clean and I let her. I gave her a significant tip. She needed the money, and it seemed overly paternalistic and odd to tell her to come get a check when she actually wanted to work.

    16. We have put our cleaner on retainer at her usual rates and intend to keep doing that through May. Known and diagnosed Covid rates in my county are low and stable so far, and if that continues we will have her resume cleaning in June. FWIW, I’m high risk for not having most of my left lung and ongoing respiratory issues and I will be fairly comfortable with her being at the house within the Covid infection rate parameters that I described. Meanwhile we are haphazardly cleaning ourselves. I miss the whole house being clean all at once, but it’s not too awful.

    17. Is there another way you can pump some money into the situation? A roomba for vacuuming and a Brava for mopping? I find a container of cleaning wipes in every single bathroom goes a long way, I make myself wipe down the counter and one other thing every time I’m in there.
      Can you limit the tasks you’d have her do to minimize exposure? Maybe she just vacuums the stairs and deep cleans the oven, for example.

      1. I bought a Roomba and although my toddler and I find it highly entertaining, it hasn’t really helped reduce time spent cleaning. It gets stuck and needs to be rescued so often that it would be faster and easier to just vacuum with a regular vacuum. It’s fun to watch though!

  12. Question for those in big law working in NYC.

    Have any of you heard any rumblings from your office about remote working until September? My husband works in finance, and his team has openly floated this idea. They haven’t decided yet, but it is a definite possibility. I kind of assumed my office would try to reopen as soon as they safely could, but now I’m not entirely sure. I know big law generally likes to do things collectively (salaries, etc.), so I am curious what others have heard, if anything, from their firms about returning to the office in NYC?

    FWIW, I have heard very little from my office. Summers were told that they will start at the end of June at the very earliest, but not to make any travel or housing arrangements until there is further communication.

    1. Nothing official but I feel like most partners left the city for the Hamptons/summer houses when this started and I don’t see them returning until after labor day. Whether the office officially opens or not my guess is that we’ll be in some sort of optional work from home at least until then if only to accommodate the desire of partners to spend the summer outside the city.

        1. We are not currently in NYC either (have been gone for 6+ weeks already). The planner in me just wants to have a better idea if we will be here all summer, or will head back sooner. Appreciate the thoughts!

    2. I suspect we will reopen next month, but for people in two-working-parent households, they will probably just be able to alternate as schools are out until at least August and there may not be camps this summer. :(

      We are essential and could be open, but have been WFH since . . . I can’t remember when. I had to start WFH when schools closed.

      In NC.

    3. Slack just got press for making this announcement, and depending on where you are, I think it’s realistic. Until schools reopen and there’s viable child care, I think it’s hard to expect a full return to an office.

    4. We are likely to have flexible return to office policies, our teams are living in three states, and dealing with a bunch of school districts and none of us knows how this is going to work.

    5. I think “open” is going to look different than it did before. It’s going to be more of a slow dimmer switch approach to going back than a straight on/off flip.

      I posted something longer about this a day or two ago, maybe Friday. I work in real estate and part of our verticals are tenant advisory so we get the benefit of a lot of information flow from what tenants are planning on doing. We expect for ourselves and what we’re hearing from our clients that office’s will have teams coming back in rotations, those who can work from home will work from home indefinitely for a while (till the fall, at least). I’m in real estate and our landlords (clients) are trying to figure out how to do things like run elevators safely.

      1. “I think “open” is going to look different than it did before. It’s going to be more of a slow dimmer switch approach to going back than a straight on/off flip.”

        This is what I’m hearing from my DC firm. They’re thinking June 15, but only if you feel comfortable. And my firm was always cool about teleworking, but now it seems like “telework whenever you want, even permanently” will be our new norm. I’ve genuinely wondered if this experience will have implications in commercial office real estate.

    6. Following. I haven’t heard anything concrete. Just annecdata, but the partners that I work for who live in the suburbs or who fled to summer houses seem to appreciate the extra time that working from home gives them, and I can’t see them pushing for a quick return to working in the office. The one partner who lives in the city and stayed is itching to get back into the office and back to normal.

    7. Doesn’t the “until September” part completely discount the consistent projections that there will be another spike in the fall? So the plan of the geniuses who “manage” in Biglaw is to return people to work about 3 weeks before what is likely to be the next government-mandated lockdown? That would be par for the course. Someone might point this out, but then that person would have to fear for their job for disrespecting the Biglaw hierarchy.

      1. Biglaw isn’t known for its management or business skills. Lol. Biglaw lawyer myself.

      2. +1. Nobody is planning for the second wave. Whenever I point out that scheduling in-person events for the fall is highly optimistic and we need to be making contingency plans to go remote, I am told I’m being alarmist. I am not in Biglaw, but a lot of my work depends on courts’ being open.

      3. I think projections that deal with September are also addressing that schools are not reopening until then.

        1. I work in pharma company and we definitely are planning for second wave. September probably refers to getting schools reopen as summer camps for kids will probably be cancelled and working parents need to deal with kids (without the option of outsourced help) till school begins in Sept.

    8. I’m not in NYC but my firm has a huge office there. The latest messaging we’ve received is that we expect that in most cities where we have offices, the easing of social distancing will take a phased approach that asks people who CAN work from home to continue to do so until late in the process. The firm acknowledges and understands that we can do our work remotely and won’t try to push ahead in that line. They’ve also said that everyone understands we’ll have to be flexible even after some people start returning, because people will have childcare, health concerns, public transit worries, etc.

    9. My office said we may end up working from home into 2021. Most of us don’t typically WFH or even have the option, but all of our jobs are things that can easily be done from home and the infrastructure (VPNs/laptops/Skype/etc) is there.

  13. Drooling over all the Reiss pants now, but why oh why can’t they show you how the pants look with feet wearing more normal shoes? I assure you I’m not wearing strappy silver sandals to work.

    1. Because then they look frumpy ;)
      She says after falling for too many pants that looked great due to unrealistic shoe styling

      1. Generally I agree with this but see my comment below about a time I think I saw it work!

        1. That would read a little too young for me, but I’m generally okay with a black trouser sock and shoes with a cropped pant. That said, cropped pants rarely look good IMHO with a more practical shoe (I tend to stock with denim for that look when I can). At best, a pointed toe shoe can be okay.

    2. I find as a Tall that if I fill in some of the exposed ankle area with some sort of ankle or high instep strap, the pants look more natural with lower, more closed shoes.

    3. I’m wearing ankle pants with (white because it’s going to be 90F today) loafers today and I think they look fine.

  14. My boss complained about the overtime slip I submitted yesterday asking why it was necessary that I work overtime…ummm…because I’m handling all of your in person meetings (23 so far this month!) in addition to doing my regular job while you work from home

    So to recap the ways in which my boss feels I have failed while being an essential in office employee to a law firm (our state allows law firms to be open, everyone could technically work in office) where all the attorneys are working from home and requiring their assistants to be in office: 1) not cheerful enough when speaking to attorneys who call, 2) “spreading negative vibes” i assume this relates to #1, 3) working too much

    1. Move to New York. I’m assuming you’re living on the West Coast. Come be with your East Coast soulmates.

      1. Already on the East Coast. Small state capital in the Mid Atlantic. Unfortunate combination of expectations – Southern cheerfulness and New England cheapness

        1. See if any of the commneters here are hiring for your skill set. Your boss is being a jerk.

    2. This is why I will never in my life work another support job. They are so degrading, even now that I technically have an admin I never use her services because I am a capable adult.

      1. OKayyy..but this just means they will all be laid off. I remember in Biglaw the partners always said use your admins, it’s more efficient for you, a billable hour person to spend your time on billable tasks, and assign other tasks to your admin. If you don’t use them, they will just slowly retire and not replaced. As a client, trust me that I am not paying a first year to put binders together or PPTs.

        1. We need to chance the culture of being ‘too good’ to put together binders. Remember the days when men were ‘too good’ to type and dictated to their secretaries? Yuck

          1. Not too good, just too expensive. You do not pay $300/hour for someone to put together binders.

          2. Nowhere did I say too good. I spefically referred to inefficiency, acceptable billing, and the fact that if we don’t utilize support staff, those roles will disappear. If not mass layoffs, then slow death/retirement and no replacements.

  15. Does anyone have suggestions for treatments/products for mild rosacea? I use gentle, minimal products already – Cerave facewash, cerave daytime moisturizer with SPF, cetaphil at night. My cheeks and nose are kind of always pink (gets worse with alcohol) and the rest of my skin is olive, so I’d like to reduce the redness (plus I’m starting to see small capillaries, etc.) I’m 36. I don’t really like wearing makeup but am self-conscious about this so I do wear foundation when I have to, and it always looks terrible – perhaps a topic for another post, haha. And is this worth seeing a dermatologist about, once we can go to dermatologists again? Thanks in advance.

    1. I think that the azelaic acid from The Ordinary is helpful for me. I need to use it pretty consistently, at least once a day, to get and maintain improvement.

      1. I love this stuff too. Most of Deciem and the Ordinary has been great. I like the guides to help me understand serums, oils, acids, peptides, retinols.

      2. Plus 1000 for azelaic acid from The Ordinary, it is great and I would never be without it.

    2. I have had some luck with the Eucerin Redness Relief cream. It’s available at the pharmacy.

    3. It’s definitely worth seeing a dermatologist. I have similar skin to you by the sounds of things. I realized that the act of cleansing my face, even with gentle products like Cerave and Cetaphil, was enough to make me pink. I was also starting to get red bumpies (not pimples, just painless red bumps that lingered) on the bridge of my nose and cheeks. I’m now on week four of cleansing morning and night with Bioderma sensibio h20 AR (anti redness) only (using a soft cotton pad, and cleansing with this works because I don’t wear makeup, so my derm says it really is ok to just use this as a cleanser and move on). I find it very, very soothing. My redness has reduced to nothing (unless I am hot or eat spicy food). I think I was underestimating the slight aggravation that was being caused just by cleansing to my delicate skin.

    4. If you suspect rosacea – keep track of your triggers!
      It’s much, much better to avoid your triggers than to escalate symptoms. Gluten? Chili? Heat? Cold? Dry air?

      I have bad rosacea – and need maybe 2 months of antibiotics every year. Every year for the foreseeable future. Don’t fuck up an do silly skincare things if what you have now is redness. Go see a dermatologist. Keep track of your triggers. Don’t keep doing things that escalates.

      For my rosacea skin – foaming cleansers are the worst. I use cetaphil for my makeup brushes, but absolutely not for my face!!!! Cleansing balms are much better, in my experience.

  16. My beef with ankle pants/cropped pants has always been that if it’s cold enough fir me to wear pants, it’s also cold enough that I want to wear socks. Didn’t think socks could work with ankle pants but recently I saw a woman wearing pants very similar to these with thin cream colored cable knit socks and caramel brown flat lace up oxfords. I thought it looked kind of quirky but not in a bad way. Thoughts on this look? I was a teen in the 90s when letting your socks show at all was a cardinal fashion sin so I don’t know if I can make the leap, but as shorter length pants become more and more the norm, maybe I can embrace it?

    1. I just wear nude knee highs and whatever shoes work that day. Works great. On colder days, I might wear full hose for an extra layer.

    2. “if it’s cold enough for me to wear pants, it’s also cold enough that I want to wear socks.”
      This just…has never been the case for me. It’s not like I can wear shorts to the office? I’m not wearing pants because it’s cold.

      This is a fine look, little dated but can be dressed up or down, dowdy or edgy depending on the rest of he looks. No, I would not wear socks unless you want to draw attention to it and can pull off a specific look.

      1. I had the same thought. I wear pants to work all through summer? Sure, there’s the occasional skirt or dress but not every day.
        I can picture the look described by OP, and frankly it sounds odd to me but YMMV.

      2. Yeah, this argument has always been BS, I’m sure everybody wears pants even when it’s warm enough not to.

    3. My version of this is tall boots with nude-for-you hose or bare legs. If it’s cold enough to encase half your leg in leather, surely it’s also cold enough for opaques?

    4. Not all styles are for all climates. Bare ankles work all year in Florida. I sit through a lot of boot/sweater posts that I’ll never wear.

    5. I know exactly one person who pulls off the look you describe and she does it really well. I would look ridiculous trying to make it work, but I also own style quirks that she couldn’t make look natural on her in a million years. If you like the socks & cropped pants look and can feel comfortable in it, then rock it!

  17. Although the pandemic has been a nightmare, I’ve found that I really love working from home. It’s good for my physical and mental health. I’ve worked from home 1 day a week for a few years, but now I would like to maybe work in the office only 1 day a week, 2 maximum. Using the fact that I’ve been successfully working from home full time during the pandemic, how would you advise me in broaching this topic with my boss? I feel like pointing out that I commute 2 hours per day on 2 different forms of public transportation (NYC) is also a factor in my favor, as is the fact that we have an entirely open plan office. Neither of these are conducive to distancing, and my staying home more frequently would help prevent community spread. Thoughts?

    1. I’m hoping all employers come to the realization that remote work can and does work well, at least for certain employees.

    2. OMG did I write this?!
      I have been 1 day/week and think that I could reasonably do 2-3 days WFH long term / normal circumstances. I plan to entice my boss with additional real estate savings (assuming lots of other people are willing to join me LoL).

    3. we spoke with a friend who lives in NJ over the weekend and he said he is permitted to WFH until at least end of 2020.

    4. I would say as a manager this has been eye opening in terms of what roles can be remote vs. which ones can’t. Assuming your manager is paying attention and is seeing something similar, I would just broach it – they’ve gotten to test drive it under terrible circumstances, if it worked well, they’ll likely be open to it. I would however be prepared for them to disagree that it worked well (some of my team definitely have worse communication when working from home, that’s for sure, and some roles have become very obvious why they need to be from the office).

  18. Hoping someone with familiarity with NYC landlord tenant stuff can help. Daughter and two roommates have lease through July in building A. Management approaches them in Feb. to say we want to renovate that apartment and don’t plan to renew lease. They all work cooperatively togehter to agree that the roomies will move to another apartment early – in April – and get a new lease through July 2021. All good, except by teh time it comes to move out, they have all returned to their parental homes (they are in the first year post college; left before SIP orders so don’t go there please). They confirm with landlord it is okay to push move to May 1. Now LL is saying they have to pay rent on both places for April, the fact that they let them push move to May 1 did not mean they were foregoing rent. Pretty confident they could not start renovations due to NYC building restrictions in place, so feels like a total money grab. Rent is $5K per month and a huge chunk of their take home. Ideas?

    1. I’m not sure I understand the situation fully. If they lived in the apartment during the month of April then yes, they would have to pay April’s rent.

      1. They did not live in either unit during April – all left the city in mid-March. They did not move out of the old unit as planned, b/c none were in the city. The management company is not out any money b/c a) they could not renovate that united due to SIP requirements. The kids did pay their April rent for the new unit, although they had not moved in yet, b/c that is when the new lease took effect.

        1. I think they’re still on the hook. I get why they left the city, but I think that is irrelevant. They are still occupying the original apartment so they definitely owe on that. They could probably argue with the landlord about the rent for the new place but they’ve already paid it so it doesn’t look good for them.

    2. So, making sure I understand.
      They live in Unit A. Owner wanted to renovate unit A, so they agreed to move to unit B in April and start a new lease. COVID happens, and they ask to push the move to May 1. So, all of their stuff is in unit A, meaning it is occupied. LL wants rent for both unit A and unit B for the month of April, is that correct?
      I’m assuming they signed a lease for Unit B that was effective April 1? In that case, they owe rent on unit B because they’re under a lease, and owe rent on Unit A because they (their stuff) are occupying it, according to the LL. Am I getting this right?

      1. You are getting it exactly right. They did pay the rent for Unit B for April, although they had not moved in yet (due to leaving city in mid March). Owner said sure – wait til May 1 to move (but did not say “FYI we will also charge you rent for Unit A for April). My quick read of NYC building restrictions is that even if they had moved their items into Unit B prior to April, the LL still could not have started the renovations on Unit A. So feels like a massive money grab to me.

        1. Yeah, the mistake is the tenants though — they should’ve payed another month of the old apartment and pushed back paying for the new one if the intent was not to move until then.

    3. Two different landlords or the same landlord for both units? If two different landlords,then I would think they could’ve asked the 2nd to delay the lease. The same thing happened to me right before I was supposed to move and my landlord agreed to push my lease to a future date. If the same landlord, then they’re just being silly for double charging when they know what kind of situation everyone is in right now and that his first unit isn’t going to generate revenue either way.

  19. Do you ever think this group has attracted some serious trollls? The attacking (behind anonymous screen names of course) of regular named posters, calling people “Karens”, taking oppositional positions on everything?

    This is supposed to be a place for high achieving women. I’m saddened that it’s not the reasonable, supportive community it once was.

    1. I honestly think high achieving people in general (not just women) are pretty calculating which results in often mean and unethical behaviour.

    2. Okay, obviously that poster above was out of line, but a lot of times what some people perceive as trolls is just other people disagreeing with them. You’re not entitled to a bubble where everyone tells you your choices are perfect all the time, and it’s certainly impossible to get that on the internet. There are a lot of rich people (and again, I hate that this place conflates “high achieving” with wealthy, as if somebody who doesn’t make 6 figures can’t possibly be achieving anything worthwhile) who don’t think about their privilege and it’s not wrong for them to get called out.

      1. “There are a lot of rich people (and again, I hate that this place conflates “high achieving” with wealthy, as if somebody who doesn’t make 6 figures can’t possibly be achieving anything worthwhile) who don’t think about their privilege and it’s not wrong for them to get called out.”

        How often am I supposed to think about my privilege? If, in pre-COVID days, Kat posted an expensive outfit and someone says, “Love it, I’m getting it!”, or someone asks for advice regarding a designer handbag and others chime in that they have that bag and here’s what they think, or someone asks for advice on a high-end travel destination … can people who can relate to those things allowed to chime in? Are we all supposed to just check our privilege all the livelong day because someone, somewhere can’t afford those things? This is a serious question, btw.

        1. Privilege doesn’t equate to having money or material items, although it often works out that many people with significant material wealth also benefit from privilege. Kindly, I’d suggest you do some research on the concept of privilege in general. I think that will help answer your questions. “Checking your privilege” does not mean pretending that you are a pauper and can’t afford nonessential/expensive purchases. It also doesn’t mean adding a disclaimer to each post about purses that you recognize you’re lucky to afford such items and that not everyone is. It means that you should be aware of how your race (or if you’re male, your sex) provides you unearned benefits that not everyone gets, and how it influences your perspective on the world. So, you don’t look at your housecleaner who, for the sake of the story, is a first generation immigrant with three children and no nanny and wonder why she doesn’t just get her kids some ipads to keep them entertained during the day during quarantine or “cook from scratch” and use cloth diapers to save money. There’s so much to it other than money. Try googling “The Invisible Knapsack.” It’s a short read that’ll give you a broad overview.

          1. I’m familiar with the Invisible Knapsack, thanks. Was there someone here wondering why their housecleaner wasn’t buying their own kids iPads, etc.? I haven’t seen that kind of attitude here.

    3. Okay, obviously that poster above was out of line, but a lot of times what some people perceive as bridge-dwellers is just other people disagreeing with them. You’re not entitled to a bubble where everyone tells you your choices are perfect all the time, and it’s certainly impossible to get that on the internet. There are a lot of rich people (and again, I hate that this place conflates “high achieving” with wealthy, as if somebody who doesn’t make 6 figures can’t possibly be achieving anything worthwhile) who don’t think about their privilege and it’s not wrong for them to get called out.

      1. Why do you think it is your job to call people out? Especially by calling them names? How does that move the conversation forward?

      2. This. Well stated. Good on the women that showed up here and express a different opinion and call people out that come on here and whine about their misfortune during the pandemic – “poor me, no housecleaner, no nanny and I have to cook my own meals” meanwhile people have lost their jobs, can’t pay bills or feed their families. Out of touch!

        1. Is your “different opinion” that no one should outsource cleaning? Because a woman came on here to ask when would be appropriate to let cleaners come in AFTER a SIP order has been lifted and you basically tried to “call them out” on the entire concept of hiring household help. That is simply ridiculous. High achieving women often hire professional cleaning services, childcare, personal training, and many, MANY other services. Get over yourself. Calling people out as “out of touch” literally does nothing to a) change their minds or b) provide any help or move any conversation forward.

        2. No nanny = no child care while you have to work. This is a real problem. Cooking and cleaning = less time when you’re already strapped for time. The end of the world? No. But for the love of all that is holy, this board is filled with first world problems and questions. See, yesterdays’ thread about whether David Yurman jewelry is dated. Why weren’t you there screeching that some people don’t even have jobs?? There is no need to attack someone for having a cleaning person. Why do they need to be “called out” for outsourcing cleaning? What on earth? I have not seen anyone bemoaning their “hardships” of not having a cleaning service on this board, much less elevating that “hardship” to the level that many other people are experiencing. You’re falling into the trap of “well why are women complaining about sexism in the US when there are women in Afghanistan who are beaten and can’t drive!!!” It’s obnoxious and unproductive. You’re not doing anyone any favors. This place is becoming miserable because of people like you.

        3. If all of that bothers you, consider that you are in the wrong place and that continuing to come here is not about contributing to a conversation, but about satisfying some kind of psychological need you have to vent your feelings by being oppositional (and – I’m hazarding a guess you’re the person posting in the housecleaner thread above – somewhat nasty).

          As for the community now becoming something different than it “once was” – sorry, no. I’ve been reading since 2011. This is pretty much how it’s always been. The fights about Coronavirus quarantining were just fights about something else. There is good stuff here and I have learned a lot and gotten a lot of support here over the years, which is why I keep coming back. But the “flamewars” (that’s what we called them back in the day) have always been a central part of the dialogue. It’s a feature of the board being totally anonymous. It’s not a bug.

        4. “Good on the women that showed up here and express a different opinion and call people out that come on here and whine about their misfortune during the pandemic – “poor me, no housecleaner, no nanny and I have to cook my own meals” meanwhile people have lost their jobs, can’t pay bills or feed their families. Out of touch!”

          The poster who asked about the safety of having a housekeeper come over was not “poor me-ing.” She was asking an opinion.

          1. Disagree. It’s the comments from OP and others about “struggling” without their housecleaner. Struggling? Really? Get some perspective…..these posters don’t know what struggling means.

          2. Do you have any concept of human language? Simply stating “I’m struggling” does not equate to “I believe this is a serious struggle, the likes of which no one has experienced and I desperately need sympathy.” For example, someone might say that she’s struggling with a commute, but you’re not going to screech at that person and say “well some people don’t even have shoes or jobs to walk to!” No. You are being needlessly reductive and building straw men. All that said, it seems like you’re itching to tell us all how much struggling you’ve endured that makes you a better person. So please. Go on. Tell us. Educate us. Give us that perspective.

          3. Anon at 4:35 there is always someone doing better and someone always doing worse. Of course things could be worse for many of the posters on this board (and for you) but not everything needs to turn into a “you can’t possibly complain about anything in your life because there are women in parts of the world without rights”. Also, you don’t know anything about the poster, maybe she’s working 15 hour days as a lawyer and married to an ER doctor so all of the childcare is falling to her and things like cleaning and laundry only happen between midnight and 3 am. Of course others have it worse but I’d hardly say such a person (and I know several in this position) isn’t struggling even though they have a lot going for them.

          4. This is not the Struggling Olympics. You don’t have to be the Most Struggling Person on the Planet to ask for opinions and / or help. We’re allowed to ask about trivial things – is David Yurman jewelry outdated? what should I get my niece for her birthday? what vacation destination is worth it if I want a weekend away? – and we’re also allowed to ask about more serious things.

        5. The folks on this board are the taxpayers whose earnings provide for the unemployment insurance benefits, the paycheck protection program, and the small business loans that are keeping many Americans afloat during these dreadful times. Or we are small business owners who provide jobs and healthcare for our employees. We are also likely to a person also contributing to charity or volunteering our time or talents at a nonprofit. We are not evil, and there is no call to accuse us of not caring for the welfare of our fellow humans. There is no need to call out privilege; with privilege comes responsibility.

    4. I’m sure sometimes people try to stir stuff up because of boredom. There was also a weird tumblr hate group years ago, it’s always been around.

      1. +1, I’ve been reading here for 10 years and the nastiness is nothing new. Just new players and new topics.

    5. I am genuinely concerned that the person who posts a comment about the value of safe at home until we reach zero cases, backed up by some article, is purposely adding disinformation and creating arguments. I hesitate to say a foreign country based troll, but we need to be aware that this is happening. Since the person didn’t post today, I didn’t say anything.

      My experience with this blog over X years is that we have cycles where posts get a lot of negative comments, so those posters leave, we go through a period of time without too many thought provoking posts, a few people get brave, and the cycle repeats.

      FWIW, I have zero issue that some people have more privilege than others, and I hate it when we throw privilege at people like it is an insult and they should just disappear already. I personally want more people to have more privilege, and let’s keep pushing privilege left, right, and down.

      1. Are you talking about me? I’m not saying we have to stay fully locked down till zero but I have tried to continually share articles that show why exponential growth=disaster if we reopen too soon, especially without sufficient testing and contact tracing. I can assure you I am a real, American, MPH holding public health professional who is baffled why so many people on this board think it is more important that they feel the lockdown has gone on longer than they think it should than what the scientific facts show.

        1. Hey ANONMPH, thanks for posting, it’s been really helpful to have another source of reliable data. Now, we just need someone to explain logarithmic growth, because apparently not everyone can do that math.

      2. I think you are confusing Ro with zero cases. The point isn’t zero cases, it’s to get the transmission rate down far enough that we can relax the restrictions.

      3. Could also be talking about me, and I assure you that I am an actual American attorney residing in an actual American city. My parents are immigrants, though, so maybe that doesn’t qualify in your book. Do you want to see my long form certificate?

        I’ve posted statements in the past about my concern that society will open up too fast, and we’ll see a spike in cases. I’ve never said we need to get to ZERO cases, although I think people here keep misquoting me as such. “Zero cases” is not the same thing as a “close to zero” — I’m not going to go through my whole argument again, but “close to zero” means few enough that we can successfully test-and-trace. And plenty of American epidemiologists agree with me — look at the University of Washington model.

        I’m not posting because I’m trying to pick fights. I’m posting because I think it’s important. In situations like this, where so much relies on voluntary social compliance, people need to know that there are others out there who are committed to social distancing. If people start thinking that everyone is giving up, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and we’ll never get this disease under control.

        So no, I’m not a troll. People can hold beliefs you don’t agree with without being a troll. Jesus.

        Looks like I just found myself a new permanent handle.

    6. fo a group of high achieving women, there sure are a lot of posts about baking bread and how often to bl*w your husband. pandemic problems i guess. \_(ツ)_/

      1. Oh, how could we forget that to be a high-achieving chick means to forgo all other aspects of your life and center your entire personality and self worth on your job and net worth! We never need to pick up any hobbies or ask advice about our marriage dynamics because we focus 100% of our attention on WORK. Step away from the ovens and the husbands and get back to your laptops, ‘rettes.

      2. Okay. Yeah, so there has been some bread-baking. But I have never seen a post about “how often to blow your husband”. Nope. 100 per cent a lot of “gardening” positive posts. When people post about blowing here, it’s for enjoyment, not servicing like you imply. This is not Cosmo. This is real women.

    7. I agree that people have been piling on to the extreme these last couple of weeks, but frankly, I have noticed it turning pre-COVID as well. It is really turning me off reading.

      1. +1 Just sent some for admin day and to a friend for her birthday. Both well-received. I also love the cookie cards forth a thank you card, birthday, or “just thinking of you” card.

  20. Hi everyone! How we all doing? Okay? Okayish? Not good? All understandable at this point.
    I just wanted to make a small plea. Can we please stop with the “Karen” name calling?
    For full disclosure, no one on here has ever called me a Karen, & I have never called anyone else a Karen. So I am an unbiased source. But I’m hoping we can maybe stop this practice because:
    1) It feels so dismissive in an aggravating way, and kind of a cop out of an argument. I would liken it to when a guy calls a woman “crazy” as a highly maddening way to dismiss any legit argument she may have.
    2) I know several Karens IRL (I mean, their actual name is Karen) & I would think there may be some that frequent this board? Maybe? And while I am not named that, I just think it would REALLY suck to have my actual name be used in the way that it is here. So maybe a little empathy for the actual Karens.

    I’m not trying to police the board (I’m certainly not in a position to), and not saying we shouldn’t argue about topics we all feel strongly about. But let’s please try to do it without the Karens. Thank you.

    (Cue obvious joke response to this post: OK, Karen).

    1. Agree with all of this. I haven’t called anyone a Karen or been called a Karen here. There are definitely some comments (on both sides) that make me cringe or roll my eyes, but I find the “Karen” term really sexist. And I also know real life Karens, who are all lovely people.

    2. If you think the term “Karen” is legitimate and fitting, you still don’t have anything to lose by dropping it. Using your words and describing exactly what your problem is with the other person or their comment is going to be way more effective than just calling them a Karen.

      1. I agree—we have lots of words and phrases that more precisely describe those kinds of behavior, without the disgusting layer of sexism. Obnoxious, officious, condescending, entitled, disproportionate reaction, doesn’t have enough to do, know-it-all, and so forth are all a better choice.

        But maybe sexism is the point of people who use “Karen”?

    3. Agree 100%. I’m surprised so many women here seem to think it’s so edgy and clever – it’s only ever read as tired and sexist to me. Perhaps it’s because the hideously unfunny comedian Dane Cook popularized it.

      1. I think the use of the term “Karen” belongs in the dustbin with other sexist terms, like sl*t, b*tch, etc. I especially have a problem with “Karen” because it is commonly used as a pejorative for a woman of a certain age doing anything a speaker doesn’t like.

    4. Agree. This is a high stress time for everyone, but that is no excuse for name-calling and nastiness. The great thing about this board is being able to ask for advice or insight from others or talk about a difficult subject you may not want to broach with friends or family, but I would think twice about doing so lately based on the personal attacks that seem to be spurred from even the most innocuous questions. If others feel that way too, that is a shame because I have also seen this community really provide support in the past to those who are so grateful for it.

      1. You summarized my thoughts exactly. There is a polite and mature way to disagree with someone, and you will never change someone’s opinion by insulting them. This community is great. I look for the positive and try to not engage with the negative.

      2. Seriously. I posted something last week trying to find our old good morning poster and see how she was doing. Even that post got high-jacked by some of the frequent offenders up top calling each other names and long rants about how everyone’s a selfish murderer for their Corona behavior.
        I know this is a stressful situation for a lot of folks, but good grief the overreaction and subsequent name calling in these threads is ridiculous.

    5. Yes! It’s such a tired thing to say. My community Facebook/Nextdoor is full of weird old men calling people Karens for posting about what the grocery store has in stock or needing to find a certain medicine or whatever. Not that people are using it that way here, but it’s becoming a way to telling women to shut up (and not unjustly complaining women with Kate Gosselin’s haircut from 12 years ago or whenever that image is from. Also as a total aside from the point, now that I have kids of my own I really feel for that woman attempting to parent 8 children with a manchild for a husband. No wonder she had terrible hair and came off as unpleasant).

    6. Ok, then should we replace every instance of Karen with “privileged b*tc* overreacting to a minor situation or slight”? Because that’s what it means. Does anyone else have a more concise word? Because it happens so often here and in the real world we kind of need an alternative.

    7. Can we all agree to come up with a better term? As others noted above it describes a type of person and it’d definitely be useful to have a less sexist version to use instead of Karen

      1. No, the name calling should stop. Use your words to express a more constructive opinion or don’t say anything.

        1. But my point is it shouldn’t be a stereotype! There are plenty of men (and non-white women and younger white women) who do “Karen” things and having a word to describe that behavior in a way that describes the behavior rather than the person (or making assumptions about the person) would be useful.

          1. You don’t think there are … sufficient words to describe “that behavior”? What behavior?

          2. I personally think having a word to describe someone who is acting self-centered, entitled, as if his or her opinion is more valid than others (or actual facts), believes they deserve special treatment and overly sensitive/taking things as a personal affront and blows things out of proportion (so even a small insult becomes something deserving of a government investigation…) with an air of “I’d like to speak to your manager” / “do you know who I am” would be useful.

          3. I see at least one poster who thinks his/her opinion is more important than anyone else’s, and that’s the poster hurling the insults, probably the same poster as -Anon at 4:03.

          4. What? I’m Anon at 4:03, I don’t throw around insults here. I’ve honestly never called someone a Karen because as I pointed out above I think its sexist and don’t like it but do think there’s a type of behavior that would be useful to describe. Since people in real life use the term Karen, I’d prefer that we had a term that was less sexist. I certainly don’t think my opinion is any more important with anyone else, I’m trying to engage in a discussion on this topic….

      2. Agree. I totally get what type of behaviour ‘Karen’ is designed to describe but I wish there was a gender neutral description. I suspect the reason there Isn’t a Mike meme is that society is much more tolerant of males jerks than female jerks

    8. One commenter also noted that it’s racially presumptive! She posted something, people called her Karen, and she responded that she was a person of color who also had anxiety about covid stuff. Obviously we’re not looking for more inclusive ways to insult people, but just another angle on this.

    9. Yes, especially to your first point. When you don’t really have a salient point and just resort to name-calling, you should just leave the conversation to the grown-ups.

  21. Could also be talking about me, and I assure you that I am an actual American attorney residing in an actual American city. My parents are immigrants, though, so maybe that doesn’t qualify in your book. Do you want to see my long form certificate?

    I’ve posted statements in the past about my concern that society will open up too fast, and we’ll see a spike in cases. I’ve never said we need to get to ZERO cases, although I think people here keep misquoting me as such. “Zero cases” is not the same thing as a “close to zero” — I’m not going to go through my whole argument again, but “close to zero” means few enough that we can successfully test-and-trace. And plenty of American epidemiologists agree with me — look at the University of Washington model.

    I’m not posting because I’m trying to pick fights. I’m posting because I think it’s important. In situations like this, where so much relies on voluntary social compliance, people need to know that there are others out there who are committed to social distancing. If people start thinking that everyone is giving up, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and we’ll never get this disease under control.

    So no, I’m not a troll. People can hold beliefs you don’t agree with without being a troll. Jesus.

    Looks like I just found myself a new permanent handle.

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