Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Slim Knit Blazer

312 Comments

1. Yet another great pick that I would have purchased, except that it’s sold out in all but one size.

   1. I’m still happy to learn about the brand and the specific piece. It looks like a really useful staple. I’ll bookmark and wait for a sale. That’s how I shop anyway.

      Do people actually pay full price? Why?

      1. I pay full price for high-quality items that are unlikely to go on sale before my very popular size sells out.

      2. I pay full price on brands that don’t discount, and on those with limited production such that my size is out of stock very fast. Never regretted paying full price for amazing quality items that I wear for years. I also enjoy the thrill of a discount but it rarely happens in clothing that fits me, I’m more likely to buy one size fits all type of things at a discount: bags, scarves etc.

   2. Whistles used to be one of my favorite brands when I lived in the UK. They cut slim and tall. I purchased my very first Winter coat ever in my life there, and I still cherish it. It was such a “big girl” purchase and I was so proud of myself :) I have happy associations with the brand for sure, and they do make quality, sometimes quirky pieces.

2. I’m looking at a Matt & Nat clutch that I’d use as a clutch / wallet / iphone carrier / something to throw into my larger Lo & Sons OG.

   I don’t need vegan leather, but would be OK with it if it were durable. Prior experience (not with the brand, but with faux leather) was that I’d get about 1 year of wear out of faux leather; real leather will wear longer / be able to be polished up a bit before finally looking shabby.

   Also, is vegan leather at least lighter than real leather? I do hate the heaviness of leather goods esp. when schlepping a lot of work stuff around.

   1. No vegan leather can be very heavy. Sometimes it is heavier than leather. Leather and vegan leather can vary a lot on the weight depending upon the exact material, how thick it is, how it has been treated.

   2. it’s definitely lighter! I have a backpack that’s gone through two years of hard use. I expect it to last another, although it’s starting to get some scratches (I think a lighter color might hide these better). Matt and Nat is definitely the high quality vegan leather, not plasticky like you’d get at Target or something.

   3. Matt and Nat is really good quality, I think, and I had a bag from them a number of years ago that I loved. However, I would avoid styles with folded corners– the points at the fold corners (does this make sense?) on my bag showed wear and I ended up getting rid of it. I could see the white backing of the vegan fabric poking through at the corners after a while (I’m not sure I’m describing this well.) If you’re looking at styles with sewn corners, you should be fine for well over a year, IMO.

      Also, if you’re buying online, just FYI– I find the bags to be larger than they seem to be in the images. So pay attention to the overall dimensions.

3. Does being in your late 30s mean you have to choose between being perpetually hungry to havethe body of your 20s, or eat the way you did in your 20s and just not be thin?

   I have changed nothing about my diet or workouts, but in the last 3-4 years I’ve gained weight, especially in my belly and thighs. I’m short, so it’s noticeable. My old clothes technically fit but I’m not comfortable in them because I feel like they emphasize the larger areas.

   I work out hard. I cannot do 1500 calorie days as my calorie counting apps recommend for a woman of my size to lose weight, so I guess I either have to cut back on the workouts or cut way back on the food.

   So fellow late 30s ladies, what did you /would you choose in my shoes? Embracing the larger body or doing a complete diet overhaul to try to get that 20s body back? I love my workouts and feel sad about abandoning them just to lose some weight, and would that really be sustainable anyway?

   1. Yeah, that’s what I’m finding in my mid-30’s. Eating the same way I did in my 20’s resulted in a stealthy 35-pound weight gain. I’m now eating far cleaner than I ever have, and am down about 20 pounds. The last 15 are proving exceptionally stubborn.

   2. I started spin, and it’s really helped. It burns so many more calories than working out with a trainer did, and it honestly builds even more muscles than my trainer did, which means I’m burning more calories just sitting around too.

      Maybe you could try that. Everyone is different, and I do think I’m fairly blessed genetically, so maybe it won’t work for you. But I would try some new workouts just to see.

      1. How does spinning build muscle – isn’t it more of a cardio workout?

         1. You lift weights during spin, you curl in a way that is like doing situps, and then when you turn up the resistance, it’s like doing leg presses, etc. I’ve built way more muscle that way.

            1. I think that’s not all spin classes. The ones I do at my gym are solely biking, at different resistance You are taking Soul Cycle style classes, right?

            2. Yes, a local studio that basically copied Soul Cycle. It’s a much more efficient workout than the more traditional spin classes.

         2. You’ll vary your resistance at a class (or if you’re doing it right on your own), including getting it pretty high. It takes strength from a lot of muscles to power through.

   3. Yes, your metabolism slows downs. And your body gets used to a particular workout, becomes more efficient at it and then can burn less calories doing it – so, yes you may want switch up your workout. Not necessarily abandon the current stuff, but mix in new stuff.

      And yes – bodies will change and will not be the same as in your 20s, so probably best to get on the acceptance train there. The acceptance is only going to get to be more important your 40s and beyond.

   4. Your metabolism slows down and you’re losing muscle, which you can address with exercise, but you also may be be able to eat healthier in a way that you’re not hungry. You may need to eat more vegetables, most of us do.

   5. Yep, except I’m in my early-mid 30s, not late. My situation was a little easier in that I was not already going to the gym a lot, so I just upped my gym attendance and started doing HIIT workouts and yoga, which has helped. Depending on what type of workouts you’re already doing, maybe switch that up?

   6. You’re lucky to have lasted this long. My metabolism took a nose dive at 25. If you’re short, you’re SUPER lucky to be able to lose weight on 1500 calories a day. 1400 is maintenance for me.

      I don’t think it’s helpful to think about what used to be. Looking like you’re in your 20s isn’t an option, regardless of weight. Your choice isn’t, getting my 20s body back. Your choice is, do I want to spend the time and energy that it will take to weigh x lbs. Or do I have better things to do with my life than obsess about my weight. I mean seriously, with kindness, when you’re considering giving up your workouts because of a number on a scale, maybe it’s time to accept that your body is where it wants to be and that’s ok.

      1. This is a really articulate way to put it and exactly how I feel. I’ve just tried to accept (if not embrace) that I’m about 10 lbs heavier than in my early to mid 20s. I’m not willing to change my diet habits that much, so it kind of is what it is. I also have a kid now, which changes my ability to exercise with regularity. So I just try to do what I can without being crazy about it. I hope it helps to hear from the acceptance side of the spectrum.

      2. +1 to acceptance. My health is good, I am strong enough to do the things I need to do (like schlepping around my 25 pound chunkster and playing airplane with her) and I just accepted that my body, particularly post baby, but even pre baby, will not ever look the same it did 10 years ago, but I am not the same I was 10 years ago either, so that’s okay. With grace, maturity and wisdom comes wrinkles, laugh lines and a little more jiggle? I view it as all part of the aging process, and I’m just blessed to be here enjoying my life.

         1. Yep. Meet yourself where you are, not where you were 20 years ago.

            1. This is such a beautiful way to say this. Thank you for this!

   7. My metabolism has slowed down and I’m 29. I’m not freaking out about the 20 lbs I’ve gained over the last few years, but I’m making a slow and steady effort to lose them by watching portion sizes, increasing muscle through strength training, and doing long days in the mountains (skiing in the winter, hiking in the summer). If none of that works, then oh well. I’m never going to go on a starvation diet because it’s just not worth it.

   8. Are you me? My doctor told me that the only way to beat the weight gain would be to get rid of my Mirena. I haven’t been able to convince myself to try this yet. She seemed to think this was an individualized concern, so YMMV.

      1. I gained weight on the Mirena and it made me exhausted. But, everyone says it “doesn’t make you gain weight.” Tuh

   9. I hear you! I’m 39. The only thing that has worked for me is intermittent fasting, and I’ve been doing it for a year now very easily. I eat all my meals between 1 – 8 pm. That means that I skip breakfast and have a hearty lunch and dinner. Within three weeks I lost about 8 pounds. I drink a ton of water in the morning and green tea and that gets me through lunch. I’m back to my pre-pregnancy weight but I still have a pooch, so it’s not perfect but I am so so much happier at this weight. I highly recommend it if you have had trouble losing weight.

      I also do strength training videos with Fitness Blender (free and awesome).

   10. Can I ask what you’re eating? I assume you’ve already considered this but you get a much higher volume of food sticking to lean protein/veggies. When I’m eating like that, I can barely hit 12oo calories a day even when I feel like I’m eating a ton.

   11. I’m in my late 20’s and already starting to deal with this. I am trying harder to eat healthfully, but there are certain foods I’m just not willing to give up, so I’ve resigned to the fact that I’m a bigger size and need bigger clothes. I’m also gonna make more of an effort to introduce new forms of physical activity this summer, my boyfriend and I go paddle boarding on weekends when it’s nice, and I started Pure Barre recently so maybe that’ll help over time.

       The weird thing is though, I still love my body. Like, I know my new bathing suits are a size 12, but I put them on and feel like a goddess. I eat to nourish, work out to feel good, and yes it would be nice to have a slimmer torso but I just can’t bring myself to obsess over it.

   12. Fundamental acceptance and continued effort are not mutually exclusive. At 39, with 2 kids having significantly altered my figure, I’ve taken up swimming with good results. I’ve also paid close attention to my actual hunger (instead of tracking calories/nutrients) and found that I can happily eat quite a bit less than I used to, especially if I’m eating more often (3-4 bites several times a day rather than 3 traditional meals). I don’t look like I’m 25, or even 35, but I feel strong and energetic and…womanly?…and that’s fine with me after really too many years of worrying about food intake and exercise output.

   13. Late 20’s checking in, this scares me. I’m just starting an exercise regime, and it’s barely anything. I eat pretty healthy but have no qualms about treating myself whenever I feel like it (I feel like it at least once a day). I don’t want to change my habits but I also don’t want to gain weight…

   14. I ended up +45 pounds from my weight that I maintained through my late 20’s/ Ten years later, I decided to change my diet (and eventually, my exercise). Joined WW, and the new Freestyle program is really helpful. There are a ton of zero point foods that I can choose from (eggs, fat-free plain ygurt, fruit, veg, beans, tofu, chicken/turkey breast, and more) so I can eat a variety of tasty food and keep the other stuff limited. I still get the other stuff, just in a more measured way than I’ve ever had to adhere to before.
       I find it a sustainable happy medium between restrictive/lose weight/unsustainable and permissive/gain weight/unsustainable.
       Since September I’ve lost a significant portion of the 45 lbs, and several pants sizes, and it feels really good to be at a balance between enjoying the food I’ve always enjoyed and being in a healthy place (for me) with my body – which includes acceptance that my body (and mind) are different from my 20’s body and mind.
       As far as muscle tone – that’s my next project. The fact that you have that cornered is awesome!!

   15. For me it has been more about the whens and hows of eating, rather than just the amounts. My body no longer tolerates “grabbing a bite” on the go. I need to sit down to a square meal, three times a day, at regular times. I need a protein-heavy breakfast, and a lot of veggies throughout the day. My days of gulping down a coffee and a granola bar instead of lunch are long gone–that’s a recipe for a stomachache and a swimmy head fog.

       Forcing myself through a workout on a stomach full of junk is nearly impossible. It’s only when I’m properly nourished (truly, without fooling myself with a bunch of cheat days) that exercise becomes effective for me.

   16. If you were significantly heavier, my answer might be different. But under these circumstances, I think the best thing you can do is keep your body fit through the workouts. I am way more concerned about losing the ability to do things as I age than I am about looking like I’m 20 when I am doing them. And I think if you are worried about your attractiveness factor, being a fit and strong person with energy is ultimately going to be the win there, too.

4. NYC advice needed!

   Visiting my daughter who is interning there in a few weeks. She’ll be working long hours, so hoping to find a place to stay that is pretty convenient to seeing her when she is available, but also checking out some brands I’ve read about here but want to see in person (not wild about shopping for clothes online).

   She lives on E 34th and works on 5th Avenue – the 600’s.

   I for sure want to go to Everlane, on Prince Street, and No. 6 shoes, on Centre Market Place. I want to try on M. Gemi shoes, which is in Soho. I’d also like to hit Argent, on W. 37th.

   Two questions:
   1. Any other shops I should not miss, if I am mainly in the market for suits? Think Board of Directors level attire. (I will likely pass on MM Lafluer- did a pop up where I live and I don’t like having things pulled for me – I want to go and look at clothes and try on things without help. My impression is that even at their showrooms in NY, I still need to work with a shopper. And I did not love their fit or quality).

   2. Trying to decide where it makes sense to get a hotel. If I am going to see my daughter early and late, I think in her general vicinity, and then just get to the shops I need to during the day, especially as to my uneducated eye, I am going to be going a few different directions for shopping. If you have specific recommendation as to a neighborhood or even a hotel, I’d be grateful. Went down the rabbit hole of Trip Advisor last night, and while I know for sure I want to avoid Times Square, I’m lost after that. Saw some hotels in E 50th’s – does not seem too far to manage, but I don’t know NY standards. Grateful for any advice.

   Thanks all.

   1. I’ve always wanted to see Of Mercer’s stuff in person (haven’t gotten around to ordering anything online yet) and it looks like they’re just around the corner from Everlane, so it would be easy to pop in.

      For hotels, there are several around Grand Central that would be easy. It’s walking distance to 34th and 5th, or you can take the 6 one stop, and it’s easy to get down to Soho.

   2. For Board of Directors level attire what about also going to Bergdof Goodman? If you like sorting through tons of random stuff in jumbled chaos, Century 21 can be fun, if you do not like that, skip it.

      1. Thanks Ella – I will check BG out.

      2. There is also a great St Johns store on Fifth Ave in the 50s if that’s your look. They have wonderful service.

   3. Stay near her if you can so you don’t have to traipse all over town late at night post visits, and then travel to shop during the day. It is not going to be that hard to get from where she lives to the main shopping areas – she’s quite centrally located in Manhattan. I don’t think you’ll ever be more than 30 minutes away on a subway. Sorry I don’t have any specific hotel recs.

   4. For superb, BoD level suiting, dresses, try Dara Lamb on W.57th. Spendy, and caveat is that everything is custom, so may not work if you are not returning to NYC in the future to accommodate a fitting.
      On E.57th, try Suarez for handbags. Their bags are made in Italian factories, supposedly at some of the same that make uber high-end designer bags. While not cheap (easy to spend $5K or more on an alligator bag, leather is much less) the bags are really well made and quite classic in style.

      Eventi Hotel (part of Kimpton) on 6th between 29th & 30th would be convenient for shooting both up- and downtown, either on foot or by subway. Some of the higher floor rooms have marvelous Empire State Building views, and the hotel restaurants (L’Amico, The Vine) are solid.

   5. I’d go for the Westin on 42nd and 3rd Ave. Big, clean, not too touristy and newer. Very easy to get downtown from (walking distance to grand central) and you can easily walk down to 34th on 3rd. Once you get east of Madison that area gets very local, so you’ll have lots of options for food and can easily grab a taxi. If you don’t mind spending more $$ the Andaz on 40th and 5th ave. is great as well and has a really nice restaurant in house though it can get kind of snobby/eurotrash-y in the bar.
      Dedicate a day to Soho, and a day to the big department stores on 5th – Saks, Bloomingdales, Bergdorfs, etc. I’d also try out Reiss if you fit into their clothing (it does tend to run small) but the stuff is really lovely and classic. The upper 50’s/60’s will also have the luxury stores – Celine, Boss, Theory, etc. in standalone store fronts. I’d totally walk up Madison from 45th or so and just pop into places that look good.

      1. I definitely second the Andaz! Also look up The Guestbook, which is a network of independent hotels with cashback rewards.
         OP, whatever you do, do not stay near Penn Station or even close to it, and definitely not west of it. It’s a horrible area. Andaz is closer to Bryant Park, which is great.
         There’s a luxury consignment store in SoHo as well you may want to dip into. I like Ted Baker for more ‘fun’ clothes and prints, which is nearby. Can’t say enough good things about M Gemi.

         1. Eeek! I have a hotel booked near Penn Station later this summer. I don’t remember the area being that horrible, or any more horrible than the other places in NYC that have affordable hotels. Is the Grand Central area any nicer?

            1. The area near Penn Station isn’t picturesque or upscale, but IME, it’s safe and affordable, not “horrible.” You’ll be fine.

               I do think the area near Grand Central is nicer, and the hotel brands and prices reflect that. OP is probably better off staying near Grand Central because it’s generally easier to go uptown/downtown than crosstown in Manhattan, and because most of the shopping she wants to do will be on the east side.

   6. You must check out Nora Gardner! They have a small storefront at 40 East 58th Street. Lots of really nicely tailored dresses that are in line with what you’re looking for, and the quality is much better than MM LaFleur.

      1. OMG you guys are amazing. Thank you! I might need to extend my trip by a day!!!

         To Gail the Goldfish: I did try Of Mercer once, via online. All went back. Super short dresses (and I’m 5’4) in clingy material with necklines that would require a cami. Maybe I’ll pop in and see if things have changed.

         Totally pumped for this trip now. Thank you all!

         1. If you do pop in, report back and let me know how it goes! If all their dresses are short/clingy, I can just unsubscribe myself from their mailing list and stop considering ordering things.

         2. Just curious–what brands or stores do you like?

            1. Sorry–meant for the OP.

            2. OP here – responding late. I like St. John blazers, but not their pants or dresses; I have one Armani suit that I love. Love Lafayette 148 but can’t find anymore, and I have one Max mara suit that I probably paid too much for, and now only wear occasionally.

            3. Lafayette 148 has a salon in NY you can visit. Look on their website for contact info and make an appt.

5. I saw a guy at the grocery store wearing chinos with elastic bands around the ankle. He disappeared before I could ask where they were from. They really looked like J. Crew but I don’t see them on their website. Has anyone seen anything similar?

   1. Google “Chino joggers” and see what you find?

      I’m having a hard time imagining it as a good look.

      1. yeah… That style doesn’t work for me. I need a wider ankle, gathered ankle just makes me look silly.

         But yes, the name of that style is jogger

      2. I used to think that until I got a slouchy linen pair from Joe Fresh and now they are my favourite weekend pants.

         1. I was thinking more of the chino (cotton twill) + jogger not being a good look. I definitely see the appeal of the style, but it needs a complementary fabric.

            I used to have something similar from Jcrew – but they called it skinny sweatpants.

   2. Uniqlo cotton joggers.

   3. J Crew has something called the seaside pant (women’s) that might be similar.

6. Am I just not cut out to work To be a litigator? I’ve been told I have really strong research and writing skills but that my experience is not on par with that expected for an associate my year. I lasted more than a year at each firm, and at the first firm I was taking care of a dying family member while working full time because I was only one with a job in my family.

   It feels like I have the substantive skills but not savvy enough to survive office politics in biglaw. For whatever, I find that I’d usually turn in a really strong brief, but throughout the course of talking about that brief, a partner’s impression of me would start to deteriorate. So if the partner had just seen my work product but had not talked to me about it, he would have a much better impression of my work. The same does not apply to the female partners I’ve worked with. I came to this country as a teenager, worked my ass off to get to H/Y/S, got a prestigious clerkship, but everything seems to have gone downhill from there. I am not one of those entitled Ivy Leaguers, I always volunteer for work that no one else wants to do and bill more hours than most of my peers, but somehow I can never find a sponsor the way other people who work less than me seem to be able to. Also, it feels like people seem to always question how smart and how confident I am once they see me in person, to the point where I wonder if I looked and sounded more like a white person, I would not get questioned as much.

   The point is, maybe the fact that I have been told to move on by two biglaw firms is a sign that I am not cut out to be at a law firm, or even a litigator anywhere. Maybe I just don’t have want it takes to be successful. Is there anyone who has been through something similar and was able to find a better job and achieve success elsewhere?

   1. I think you’d have much better luck in small law where people skills matter way more than politics. That advice depends on what kind of law you enjoy though. It also sounds like you are dealing with racist jerks. Lot’s of people think small law is less than. I enjoy it way more. In bigger law, I was doing discovery review or low end research. In small law, I’m running my own cases and in court frequently.

   2. Law firms, especially big law firms, are their own weird beast that will reduce your confidence to shambles by finding innovative ways to break you. Adding years of subtle sxism and raceism on top of that, you get a big ol’ mug of daily self doubt.

      You said it yourself. You worked incredibly hard and will continue to work hard. You will find a place that you will fit in with soon. If you haven’t already, join some women-centric networking groups in your area and get the low-down on what the women friendly firms are. Also, check out smaller firms, government, and non-profits, where the egos are not as intense

   3. Maybe. Maybe not.

      Are you friendly enough with anyone senior to you who can be candid with you? It may be that each firm just burns through people. It may be that you are good but not the favorite and only favorites get to stay. Find out where litigation alumni from your firms go — if you are friends with those people, try to have lunch and talk through their progress since leaving.

      Finally, HYS shows that you are good at tests and school. Being good at being a junior lawyer is another beast (and being good as a senior lawyer is truly a thing apart from that).

      Projecting on the outside who you are on the inside is a skill you can perfect, too. It’s not a matter of being white or not white — you can be a better outwardly-projected version of your real competent educated experienced self.

      And don’t be too harsh on yourself — it’s BigLaw — the attrition is astonishing and our filters for letting people into the pipeline only track academic performance (which is not really where the secret sauce for lifelong BigLaw success is). I don’t mean that failing is how it’s done, but for everyone who succeeds here longterm, there should be sheer astonishment that it worked out.

   4. I would in no way assume that because biglaw isn’t a fit, that being a litigator isn’t a fit. There are many other places to be a litigator (mid-law, non-profits, govt) and those might be a better fit (they tend to be more accepting of differences then biglaw, which in many ways still has only one successful model).

      But, I’m also concerned by your description. Is it that during the course of discussing the brief, the partners realize that something is missing/the legal analysis is off/something was overlooked? Is it that you sounds unconfident when discussing the research, so that the partners start to question the accuracy of the research? Maybe it is all sexism and racism (not discounting that it is a real possibility in any way), but I would consider whether you come off as unsure when discussing the cases. If that is true (or potentially true), that is something to address because it could hold you back no matter where you are job-wise.

      1. I think it’s a combination of two things: 1) it’s not that I am not confident, it’s that I have quiet confidence, so I have noticed that I tend to answer questions in a way that is both deferential and uncertain. 2) even if I project the same level of confidence as someone else, I feel that’s not enough, and that I have to project more confidence than a white man. This only applies when I am interacting with a senior associate or partner in person. If we are communicating via email, then I come across as equally confident.

         1. the second item sucks, but may very well be true. The first, however, is something to work on regardless of what or where you end up working. I had that problem was a was more junior, because I would think that I was only 95% sure of my answer and should make that clear. But I later learned that it is better to sound confident and come back and correct the item if necessary. (And becoming more senior and having junior attorneys reporting to me also impacted my approach. I realized how hard it is to trust an attorney that doesn’t sound like they trust themselves.)

            In order to be a successful attorney, no matter where you are practicing, people need to have confidence in your answer and that means you must speak with confidence. I’m not sure of the best approach to deal with this issue. You might find some helpful books, or could try a career coach or a group like toastmasters.

         2. I have been in the same position (also a woman POC), and reviews consistently came back – good work, needs more confidence, needs to work on presentation as far as speaking. It is possible, and really probable, that your seeming lack of confidence is feeding into a confirmation bias by the people at your firm that don’t look like you or know you well that you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re a woman and/or POC.

            If your work speaks for itself but your presence does not give people confidence in your work, then it is very possible that you aren’t made for litigation – not that you can’t do the work but that you don’t have the personality for it. But more likely, you need a more supportive work environment with people who will give you real feedback and coach you on how to present yourself better – law firms are notorious for pushing anyone out that seems like they need the littlest bit of coaching or mentoring to perform better. You may do better in mid-law, a different area of litigation, in government, or in-house in a setting that does not require much or any confrontation (appeals sounds like a good place for you) so that your in person presentation matters a lot less and you are judged more for your actual work.

            1. +1 to big law not wanting to coach at all. I agree that it seems like if the work and hours are where they should be, it’s something about your presentation. (This stinks, I’m sorry. But it’s something you can work on, even though it’s silly to have to!)

               OP, is there a bar association of your ethnicity? That could be a very useful resource for you to see how others (either men or women) who are successful present themselves. It can also be a valuable place as they may have a mentoring program, postings for job opportunities, or just events where you can practice polishing your presentation skills. I think you would be more likely to get honest feedback from outsiders than your firm in this case. (For example, perhaps your accent makes it difficult for some ears to understand you and that’s why you are losing them in the in-person. Or perhaps your accent in English creates an upspeak, which combined with being a young woman, translates to some ears as a lack of confidence on your part. Or who knows! These are not fair and I applaud you for being so highly accomplished in your non-native land and non-native language, but I think you’d rather know than be in the dark.) I would also recommend women’s bar events. You have good work and work ethic, and I’d hate for two firms cutting you after a short amount of time to create a reputation that other firms are weird about. (And yes, mid-law may be a better fit as biglaw has almost no room for deviation beyond the standard-issue white lawyer with polished background and fancy credentials – at least not at the top.)

         3. You really need to not project your insecurities when you speak. That’s probably why people aren’t taking you seriously. I recently spent a weekend with two female college students from an Ivy League school and left with the impression that they are both absolute morons. Speaking like Valley Girls, twirling their hair, peppering so many “ums” and “likes” into their sentences it was difficult to discern the meaning…the list goes on.
            The way you communicate verbally is extremely important. Don’t bring race or gender into this. You’ve already admitted you can come across as uncertain; really focus on improving that.

         4. Quiet confidence does not mean sounding unsure or uncertain. But you can work on this! You’re a bad-@$$ researcher who turns in quality work!

         5. I’m in a different field, but I find it frustrating when I ask someone to do something and they present it to me with an “is this right?” attitude. I don’t have time for it and it makes me think that they will never become independent or truly “get” it to the point of applying it, my goal is for them to be self-directed instead of asking me to be the final authority on every little thing. Present in a way that shows that you are sharing knowledge in work, not asking for approval, if that makes sense. Maybe that is where your stumbling block is? It could also really just be the other people you work with. When I’m dealing with a certain type of ***hole man, I find it helpful to lower the tone of my voice. People can be very sexist about higher voices.

         6. “it’s that I have quiet confidence, so I have noticed that I tend to answer questions in a way that is both deferential and uncertain”

            That’s not confidence. Be respectful and certain. They are paying you to know your stuff.

   5. Could you work with a coach? I have someone helping me get ready for a big presentation and it’s been really helpful to see what I should work on to appear more confident. I am in SF.

      1. I, too, wondered about confidence. My career services office in law school got feedback from interviewers that I came across as having very little confidence at that time in my life. So they worked hard with me to change that perception. Coaching sounds like a great option. Where are you located, OP?

      2. Not the OP but would you be able to provide the name for that coach in SF? I’ve started having to give bit presentations and would like to work on my delivery and confidence. I watch the videos from my presentations and I think I sound so young.

         1. Speechskills. They are in Noe Valley.

      3. I was going to mention this. As a non-lawyer reading your post, it sounds like you need serious one-on-one coaching on presenting and speaking at an office. Based on the readings on this site, it also sounds like litigators are generally aggressive. If you tend to be quiet/demure/etc., you may not be getting respected as a litigator.

   6. I hate the title, but Nice Girls Don’t get the Corner Office might be a good book for you to take a look at. Something about the way you present yourself is leaving the impression that you are not as confident or capable as you apparently are. The fact that you work the most hours and volunteer for work that no one else wants to do are indications to me that you’re spinning your wheels in the wrong direction if you want the respect of your peers. Those attributes makes you a workhorse but not a leader.

      If you want to stay in litigation, you need to learn how to play the game. The game isn’t won by having the most perfect work product – it’s won with confidence and with the ability to sell yourself and your argument to clients and judges. That isn’t office politics – it’s a job requirement. If you’re not interested in that kind of office, that’s a perfectly fine choice to make but the nature of litigation isn’t going to change.

   7. Sorry to hear that you’re going through this. Could you say more about “a partner’s impression of me would start to deteriorate” during discussion of the brief? How do you know that this was happening? Could it be a matter of changing up the way you and the partner communicate?

   8. on top of all these comments, I would also add:

      life exists outside of big law.

      so many of us are litigators, competent attorneys, and bright women. if you’re not an entitled Ivy Leaguer,then maybe you should look for a job where people are like you. and if I had to guess, the chances of that are better outside of the big law bubble.

   9. Definitely consider mid-size and small law firms before you give up on law firms altogether. In my experience, they tend to be a collection of people that like being lawyers but didn’t like various aspects of biglaw and can be a safe haven for quirkier personalities. It’s also a lot easier to get experience on your feet in a smaller firm.

      I self-selected out of biglaw, and have worked at 3 small law firms since. I have gained great experience, enjoy close and supportive relationships with my colleagues, and have a good work/life balance. I am more valuable to my small firm than I would be at a larger firm with a revolving door of new associates, so I’ve been able to negotiate my compensation over the years in such a way that I am compensated comparably to my biglaw counterparts (although I’m in Canada so the biglaw salaries are not as crazy as in the US). I can genuinely say I love my job.

      Don’t give up! Keep looking for the right fit. Tell your network that you are looking and ask them to keep you in mind for anything they hear of that might be a good fit for you. Also mine your network for information about prospective firms so you can make the most informed choice

      1. Thank you. Were you able to find a law firm where you stayed for a long time? I’m just really sick of lateraling to a firm only to be fired a few years later. It sounds like you were at 3 firms before you found the right fit. What is the average number of times people move firms before finding something ideal in the long-term?

   10. Two things jumped out at me about your post.

       1. You came to the US as a teenager and are non-white. I may be making assumptions here, but do you have a non-American accent? Ime some litigators (and even some transactional attorneys) have a really strong negative reaction to accents. Specifically from POC. They’ll say things like, it’s hard to understand them, they don’t speak clearly enough. But imo it’s thinly veiled racism. Your description of talking to a partner about a brief sounds exactly like what my West African colleague went through her first year in biglaw. She was also asked to leave. Fwiw I thought her accent was barely noticeable.

       2. You take assignments no one else wants. There’s probably a reason no one else wants them. For example, doc review is where careers go to die. You get sucked into these long projects where you’re not getting any experience or exposure to partners, clients, or even senior associates. They don’t let you take other assignments because they need all hands on deck. And no one even sees you around the office because you’re in a storage facility in North Dakota for 3 months. Meanwhile your peers are taking deps and arguing simple motions and getting the experience that you’re missing. And no it doesn’t matter that you billed 3000 hours in years 1-3 because no one wants to pay a 4th year to do doc review but you don’t have enough experience to do anything else. Same with non-billable work or a multitude of other thankless tasks. You have to lobby to get the experience that you need to succeed; don’t just ask for hours ask for specific tasks like a dep or a motion or to help on a trial.

   11. So there’s a lot to unpack here, but to be brutally honest: if you’ve been fired from biglaw twice and lasted under two years at each job, then the problem is likely you, not the firms. That doesn’t mean you can’t be successful – one of the most ridiculous ideas in biglaw is that struggling at any point means you’re destined for failure forever – but it does mean that you likely need to take a hard, hard look at your performance and be willing to make significant changes.

       You said that both firms told you that you didn’t have the experience they expected of an associate at your year. That means that, basically, they can’t sell your skills at the price point that they need to in light of what they’re paying you. So the first piece of advice I’d give you is this: you should probably take a lap (maybe more than one) at your next job. Don’t market yourself as a mid-level if the feedback you’re getting is that you’re being let go because you don’t have midlevel skills. That’s setting yourself up for failure. Be willing to start over as a first-year at a first-year salary if necessary.

       In terms of what you’re describing about the briefs and your subsequent responses to comments, it does sound like the presentation of your work doesn’t portray confidence. That’s something that can be taught, and the suggestion to work with a coach is a good one. If the partners believe you’re not sure that your reasoning is correct, they’re not going to want to rely on it. They’re going to feel like they need to check your work. They don’t want to do that, because it costs time and money. That makes them not want to work with you and to think of you as not reliable. So find someone who can work with you on your self-presentation so that when you’re talking to more senior lawyers, they believe in you.

       Finally, I would encourage you not to focus on your feeling that other people who don’t work as hard as you are finding sponsors and finding greater success. I’m not disregarding your experience – biglaw still leans hard on an idea of “cultural fit” that is centered on the white upper-class male with a stay at home wife as the norm – but the fact that you’ve been let go twice and the information you’ve provided about the feedback you’re getting suggests that it’s a secondary factor, not the primary one. Focus on you, because that’s what you can work on, not on other people, because you can’t change them.

       1. This is helpful. I definitely plan on getting a career/communications coach for my next job. What do you mean by “taking a lap” though? Aside from agreeing to take a year or two down, what does that entail? In what little spare time I have, I am always reading books on how to improve my legal writing and/or writing articles for the firm. So I feel like I have been taking a lot of laps if what you mean is working hard. I also go to a lot of the networking events for minorities and women. Aside from hiring a coach, I don’t know what else there is that I can do to address this.

          Also, to give more context, I was getting good reviews at my first job until I had to take time off when a family member was in palliative care, and that firm’s litigation partners all left around the time I got there, so there was only doc review type of work available. I also got good reviews at the second firm until things started getting slow. So it’s certainly not the case that I have only received bad reviews. But I do feel that there is some legitimacy to the feedback of not having the right level of experience because like one of the commenters pointed out, I spent most of my time doing doc review work that no one else wanted to do as a 1-3 year at the first firm, and as a result lack discovery skills needed to be a mid/senior level litigation associate at both the first and second firm.

          1. This may be one of your problems. It doesn’t sound like reading books on how to improve your legal writing or writing articles is the best use of your spare time. Instead spend the time on presentation and communication skills. These will both be key in gaining experience that will improve where you’ve been told by the firms you lack experience.

             I think biglaw partner is recommending that you lateral to another firm, at a class year or level below where you are (or, at the same level you’re at now). It’ll give you a chance to gain the experience you lack.

             1. Yes — “taking a lap” refers to repeating a class year you’ve already completed, at least on paper. (So you complete a lap around the track or at the pool, and then you do the same thing again).

             2. I think Anon at 12:42pm gives good advice. Also, consider giving speeches at colleges, etc., and have someone record you. And then watch that video. Watching yourself on video goes a very long way to identifying and targeting possible issues that need to be worked on.

             3. That’s right – be willing to take a position a few class years down. We have an associate at my firm who was three years out of law school, struggling in another area of practice, and came to us as a first-year in a new area. She’s doing great – it was a better fit and she didn’t come in with expectations that she couldn’t meet.

                With the info you’ve given, it seems like other than potential issues around presentation, a big issue really probably is that you’ve been in positions that haven’t given you the opportunity to build skills. That is crappy, and it’s a problem that only becomes more of a barrier as you get more senior. So I’d also echo what others have said – consider a mid-sized firm or small firm that offers more hands-on experience, in addition to dropping down a class year or more.

   12. Are you in NYC? I am part of a few diverse associate groups and could help you out.

7. There was a powerful op-ed in the NY Times about the lawsuit against Harvard alleging discrimination against Asian-American applicants (which was discussed here recently). If this evidence is true, then it’s very disturbing and exactly the way Harvard discriminated against Jewish applicants for years. A few excerpts with link to follow:

   Harvard’s own Office of Institutional Research had found that if the university selected its students on academic criteria alone, the Asian share of the Harvard student body would leap from 19 percent to 43 percent…though Asians were consistently the highest academically performing group among Harvard applicants, they earned admission at a rate lower than any other racial group between 2000 and 2019.

   Mr. Arcidiacono found that an otherwise identical applicant bearing an Asian-American male identity with a 25 percent chance of admission would have a 32 percent chance of admission if he were white, a 77 percent chance of admission if he were Hispanic, and a 95 percent chance of admission if he were black.

   A report from Harvard’s own Office of Institutional Research found that even after alumni and athletic preferences were factored in, Asians would be accepted at a rate of 26 percent, versus the 19 percent at which they were actually accepted. That report, commissioned back in 2013, was summarily filed away, with no further investigation or action taken.

   No innocuous explanation can account for the extent of these disparities. Yet Harvard is insisting that those who call it what it plainly is — racial discrimination — are advancing a “divisive agenda.”

   1. Link: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harvard-asian-american-racism.html

   2. Either you think affirmative action is valuable and worthwhile, or you don’t. I would not want to attend an educational institution (particularly one that is known for breeding the future masters of the universe) that is not at all reflective of the racial or gender makeup of the population.

      I wish that schools would just use income as a proxy for this. It would still align well with diversity goals. The problem is that schools want $$$ in addition to diversity.

      I also wish that schools would get rid (entirely) of legacy-based admissions. I don’t really hear people complaining about those, even though they serve to entrench racial and income disparities in higher education.

      1. I don’t think affirmative action in its current form is worthwhile. I think extensive other measures, ranging from universal pre-K to aggressive recruitment/visits at underrepresented high schools, would increase the diversity of elite colleges in a much more transparent and fair way. I’m also fine with doing away with legacy admissions, although one would have to be concerned about unintended consequences in the form of decreased donations, which could lead to weaker financial aid packages, etc.

         1. But no matter how much you improve pre-K-high school education, you can’t change the homes that kids grow up in or the test prep resources they have access to. As long as money can pay for more and better test prep and tutoring/homework help, you will have inequalities in who is getting into schools. Look at the situation in NYC right now with the specialized high school admission system. The % of Black and Latino students is far lower than their representation citywide in public schools.

            A kid can be extremely bright, hard-working, and creative, but still struggle to get over a 1200 or 1300 on their SATs because they don’t have the test prep, they didn’t grow up in a house hearing a rich vocabulary, or they had to work a lot during high school to help out their family.

            1. I would also support making test-prep courses free and other measures – the two I mentioned weren’t the ONLY two I support. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s justified to discriminate against qualified applicants because some applicants have really hard home lives.

               Besides, Asian-Americans have the highest poverty rate in NYC, but also the highest admission rate to the specialized high schools based on the standardized exam. If you were to use household poverty as a proxy to increase admission, you would just admit more Asians anyway.

            2. And yet, it if seems that you are Asian and you overcome these barriers, NYC is now saying that they don’t want you in Stuyvesant, etc.

            3. Stuyvesant Alumna here. I got in without any test prep, as did most of my friends there, many of them Asian. All the kids who had test prep when I went there were rich and white. This was not that long ago. The proposed plan of admitting the top kids from every middle school will advantage those kids who have parents who advocate for them within the middle school – it’s not like middle school grades are objective. I was not in the top 5 of my small middle school – the kids whose moms volunteered were – yet I was the only one to get into a SSHS.

            4. I think test prep is awful, to be honest. Rote learning isn’t impressive and making that stuff free would only benefit kids whose parents want them to do that kind of studying. I never would have had the chance to do free test prep courses.

      2. Can any of the admissions people weigh in on legacy preferences? Is it subtle (like you need only 1300 instead of 1400 to get in) or a heavy thumb on the scale (1000 vs 1400)? And will any alumni do or alumni donors or alumni donate-a-building donors?

         The WSJ documented Duke’s big-potential-donor preferences (OTOH, if no one is a big donor, maybe they don’t have enough $ to do need-blind admissions) — you can google Bunn and Duke and the article should pop up. I think that this happens everwhere.

         But I also work on my selective State U’s alumni fundraising and know that most of our alumni never give anything ever, so even a $100 annual donor is special (never mind the rare $1000 donor or $10,000 donor). I can’t imagine that low-$ donors get that big of a preference (but at HYS, maybe those families are so rich that they overlap with the big $ donors).

         1. What does it matter how much you have to donate? By using legacy preferences, you are entrenching racial and income disparities. You are disadvantaging first-gen college students, or simply students whose parents didn’t have the means or education to attend Duke, etc.

            1. This is interesting. Alumni preferences I always thought were for big-donor alumni. I don’t think that they apply to mere alumni’s children. I could be wrong, but I am assuming that schools track big donors and denying their kids admission hurts the bottom line (and that mere non-donating alumni’s kids are treated like anyone else, with no preference at all).

            2. I feel like Alumni preference goes beyond mere $$ coming from the parents/legacy (but $$ is still important). This is the way I see it – If you go to the same school as one of your parents, then the potential for the whole family to be involved in the school is greater. Maybe you go to sporting events and bring some other people. And then there are 3 or 10 more people at X sporting event than there would have been before, so the appearance to a total outsider is “Wow, people support this school! People really like it here!” Maybe having more people at the game leads to more corporate sponsorships for X sport. Maybe then this means that more alumni donated money can be put towards funding more scholarships available and you end up attracting better and better athletes, giving the school free advertising (whether or not you support any college athletics, it’s a pretty big $$$ business for a school). Also – Maybe that parent has a decent job and since their child goes there, and they want their child to succeed, they’ll have a coffee or a lunch meeting or review a resume for a current student there, giving that student a leg up in Y field.

               This is what I have seen happen where I went to school. It’s about creating the connections that in turn create more and stronger support of the school.

            3. Nope, at least at Duke (alumna of that school here), in an average year 25% of the students are legacy admits. They want to “keep it in the family” which ensures at least a large percentage of the students at any given time have loyalty to the school, were educated with the school’s values, and will perpetuate the school’s culture. It doesn’t matter if you donate or not. They also have a preference for sibling admits – again to keep it in the family.

            4. Re Duke — that is insane!

               Re donors — if you do to School A and are a generous (an amount with a comma, not a building) donor, can School B look this up about you? Just wondering b/c my stepsons college seems to be sending me very friendly letters and I have no connection to that school. [I bet Duke and HYS have probably figured this out.]

               FWIW, I know a kid where the grandparents (same last name) donated a building to her high school. I had bet that admissions people took notice (kid is smart and hardworking, but that is serious $$$). Then she followed a boyfriend to State U with generous admissions policies (where there probably isn’t the budget / bodies for that level of grandparental data mining, which is a shame).

            5. I work in higher ed fundraising. No, we can’t look up what you give to other schools. We can look at their donor reports that are posted online, though. We only do that on major prospects who are giving buildings, not on people who give $1,000 or $2,500.

         2. Ait varies by school.

            At my undergraduate school, legacies have SAT scores within 20 points of non-legacies. I was a legacy and my SAT scores were about a hundred points higher than the average (I only got a couple of questions wrong).

            It varies among schools, and some schools give very heavy preferences. At others, it varies by how active the alum is and how much money they donate. The reality is that except for Harvard (“a hedge fund attached to a university”), almost every school needs the alumni donations, and encouraging alumni to donate a lot means that they can accept more talented poor and working class kids who need aid.

            1. I went to a very selective women’s college and have always been told/under the impression that legacy status helps an applicant that is on the lower end of the admitted student range but that plenty of legacy applicants don’t get admitted (including the children of members of the board of trustees). I do wonder whether there are a fair number of legacy applicants that aren’t really competitive or interested, but their mom is SUCH a committed alum that they put in an application just to maintain domestic harmony.

               Personally, I’d like my daughter to consider my undergrad/women’s colleges in general because I’m a big fan, but I want her to pick the college that is right for HER, not for me.

         3. I work in higher ed admissions at an elite law school part of an elite private non-Ivy university. For legacy admissions, they certainly have to be in our range in terms of GPA/academic achievement. On the low end, sure – but they can’t be way off. There also needs to be some major, major historical and future giving. You can’t just say, oh I will donate a million dollars the year my daughter is applying – that’s a huge red flag and something we couldn’t accept. In most cases, our development office won’t even solicit a gift during the year that they know a donor’s kids are applying. Typical giving for most families (as in, up to $10k a year) doesn’t come close to making a legacy case for admission. We are talking major, major money.

            1. Good to know — I can stop my paltry donations now. Glad that this benefits the donate-a-building crowd though. Will remember that if I win the lottery before my kids are in high school.

            2. I should have been more clear: legacy/family admits do have a preference for a student who is “on the bubble” so to speak. But for a student who would normally be on the very low end of the admissions range, or just outside, that’s when the big money can make an admissions difference.

            3. OK — so still donate small $ to my alma mater?

               FWIW it is State U in a state I don’t live in (so probably the bigger hurdle is a hard cap on out of state acceptances; which is countered by a desperate need for the significantly higher out of state tuition dollars).

            4. Donating anything under $5,000 is not going to help your kids chance at admission. At a State U with hundreds of thousands of alumni, that is not going to stand out. You can stop your small donations, in other words.

      3. HYP should just establish minimum qualifications (like 1200 SAT and whatever the equivalent ACT score is) and pick people by lottery. Everything else seems to be unfair; this way people who could do the work have the same equal shot at getting in.

         1. But why would they do that – they have no reason to do so – they want the best and the brightest. Getting over a 1,200 on the SAT says nothing about how hardworking, bright, or talented you are. If you come from nothing and had to fight for everything you have, then getting a 1,200 could mean that you have the potential to find the cure for cancer. If you are handed everything in life, have a private SAT tutor, and take the test more than once, getting a 1,200 could mean that you are lazy or just not that smart.

            1. Well, it looks like if they were admitting on merit alone, the #s would be starkly different. So they should just stop playing favorites or playing g-d with people’s lives. Raise it to 1400 for all I care, but HYS should let some sunlight in on the process. Or just go with a lottery — it doesn’t fail the smell test. You’ll get people who are smart enough. You clearly make exceptions now (denying Asians b/c they are Asian, letting in legacies and athletes b/c they are legacies and athletes) — this will do away with that.

         2. A 1200 SAT should not be good enough to get you into Harvard. Most Harvard students could have gotten that score in middle school.

            1. You get the point. Probably the first 5 cohorts of rejects are fungible to the admits. They ought to pick a cutoff (lowest non-legacy non-athlete admit) and just use a lottery to be fair.

            2. I’m a Yale alum and definitely got that by 7th grade. John Hopkins CTY program for the win. haha.

               As an east asian american woman I knew that I wasn’t being judged against other white applicants, I’d be judged against all the other east asian valedictorians, 1600 on their SATs and julliard level of string-ed instrument skill. It was rough.

         3. I’ve always thought this would be great if you could figure out a way to make it random enough that people couldn’t game the system.

            1. I think the issue would be Harvard wouldn’t be Harvard anymore. Part of the reason people want to go there is to network with other up and coming future famous people. Unfortunately, that means rubbing elbows with other people who have rich parents. You go there so you know the son of the CEO of a fortune 500 or the daughter of a President. If it is all lottery, the networking benefits go away and it is just another hard to get into school.

               I agree that it would be WAY more fair but it would lose its appeal I suspect.

            2. I don’t know if the networking benefits would necessarily go away with a lottery. Many of the people from my college who’ve done some pretty amazing things aren’t the ones with rich parents or even parents that went to college. Also, in my experience, the ultrarich kids mostly tended to socialize with one another. There were a few exceptions – I had a pretty good friend during college whose dad was a billionaire/industry magnate and she didn’t run with that crowd, but most of them did seem to hang out just with one another, especially once you could pick your own roommates/housing.

               It also depends on the culture of the school – in the late 90s, my school was definitely the sort where you’d see a battered Volvo with a bunch of prep school stickers in the parking lot instead of a shiny new SUV.

      4. A couple of comments across different issues raised.

         I truly believe in the value of diversity for diversity’s sake and giving opportunities to students that come from different backgrounds. That is the only way to level the playing field that has been tilted against them. These American institutions should be a reflection of our country’s diversity.

         I think the concept of “merit” and potential for success can be confusing for people that believe that grades and test scores are the best measure. I’ve had a number of conversations with co-workers who are immigrants that think the business world operates as a meritocracy (also see big-law poster above). It doesn’t. Skills in sales, managing teams, building relationships, working in crisis and creative problem solving are not measured on a test.

         There is also a confusion that going to a top school leads to success in life, which I strongly contest. I recognize that in certain countries, this is true, but not in the US. The partners of certain top law firms may come from the big-3, but there are many more people that have had successful and high paying careers that didn’t.

         1. +1 – Harvard (or even HYS) isn’t the only game in town. It’s not like there are dozens and dozens of highly qualified institutions that can give you a comparable education. What you are paying for at HYS is the name and pedigree.

            Someone who is high achieving enough to make it at Harvard will flourish just about everywhere – You get out what you put into the college experience.

            1. This. I often bemoaned not getting into Stanford, despite excellent test scores and GPA. I suspected it was because (1) my extracurriculars were lacking because I had to work more than 30 hours a week during high school to help support my family and (2) I went to a pretty bad public school.

               I ended going to a combination of UCLA and UC Berkeley. These are obviously fantastic schools, but I still worried it wouldn’t be “good enough” given my background. But now I feel like it may have been a blessing in disguise, because these schools were much cheaper and had a really diverse and welcoming environment, and surprisingly decent socioeconomic diversity. (I went to school before the free/reduced tuition for poor people was a thing at Ivy league schools.)

      5. Second that you either believe in affirmative action or you do not. Asian-Americans are not an underrepresented minority in college admissions in the US. Harvard’s incoming class is over 20% Asian (while Asian-Americans are only 6% of the US population) and that is with these extra barriers to admission. If you wanted the University to reflect the racial and gender demographics of the US as a whole, the number of Asian students would actually be much, much lower.

         And in case anyone is wondering, African-Americans are also not underrepresented in a statistically significant way at Harvard (although other universities are an entirely different issue). In fact, non-Hispanic whites are actually underrepresented in terms of demographics – although an argument can be made that is fair given historical barriers to admission for non-white students. The group that is markedly underrepresented are Hispanic/Latino students (although I acknowledge that this is an ethnic rather than racial category).

         Also, while legacy admissions are obviously a thing, fewer than half of Harvard’s incoming class is non-Hispanic white, so one has to wonder whose spots those legacy admissions are taking.

         And before I get flamed, this is Harvard. The discussion would be different if we were talking about flagship state university.

         1. “Also, while legacy admissions are obviously a thing, fewer than half of Harvard’s incoming class is non-Hispanic white, so one has to wonder whose spots those legacy admissions are taking.”

            Middle class white kids from states that are already over represented at Harvard.

   3. Not related to your main point, but, when Harvard was discriminating against Jewish applicants, didn’t it admit a lot less than 19% of the total student body? I had always had the impression that during that time, only a few Jewish applicants were admitted (like, a lot less then 5% of the student body). Is that wrong?

      1. That is correct

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota

   4. I was also stunned by that article. I had initially assumed that they were comparing candidates based on grades/test scores only, but when I read that the Asian candidiates were also competitive to superior on extracurricular activities and that the low scores were only due to the subjective “personality” components, that seemed so wrong.

      I have to admit that something also seemed a little funny to think that the Harvard population should jump from 19% to 42% Asian (which is such a diverse group it is really time to finally break it down…). Shrug.

      I also agree that we should end legacy admissions and that diversity based on income should also be a stronger variable in admissions.

   5. I’m not Asian American but I have many friends that are and this has been a well known thing for a very long time – I remember talking about it with friends in HS. I think the issue is not just the numbers but the way they are doing it – rating Asian American applicants lower on “personality” – which reinforces so many awful racial stereotypes. I know a family who changed their last name to sound more “white” to try to avoid this.

      1. Really interesting HBS article might provide insight on why this is happening:

         “The authors of both papers theorized that whites are threatened by the “unfairly high” levels of competence possessed by Asians and essentially use the stereotype that Asians lack social skill as a pretext for discrimination.”

         https://hbr.org/2016/12/why-arent-there-more-asian-americans-in-leadership-positions.

      2. If you are Asian and have a more ambiguous name, do you just apply and check the box as “other”?

         1. I think that was the plan in this family – or to refuse to self report if it’s optional.

   6. Why are Asians so smart? Serious question. I have several good Asian friends and uniformly they are all incredibly bright, friendly, nice, etc. How is the strong work ethic and drive cemented in the community at such a young age? I really admire it and would love to replicate it with my own (future) kids one day.

      1. I think there is selection bias. The people who were able to leave their countries in pursuit of higher ed, etc etc, sacrificed time with family, supportive network at home, to try their hand here. Even if they run liquor stores, dry cleaners, clean your house, they often have cultural capital from higher ed degrees and higher social standing back home that allow them to support their children and value education/experience/opportunities for growth over material things… and then it can add up to supporting their children to pursue the grades/activities/music/sports to be well-rounded for ivy admission. (I say this as an east asian WOC)

         Truly do not believe an ethnic group/nationality is “smarter” than others in any way.. it’s just how the immigration story of the USA has played out. It’s also a relatively short period of history too…

   7. I found this to be very moving. Asians have long suspected such discrimination – the numbers don’t make any sense otherwise.

   8. WOW — Harvard admissions people are dinging Asian applicants on “personality” when they have not in fact met (and when alumni interview Asian applicants in person they do just find in the personality department)? I think they need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

      1. “Personality” is kind of a misnomer – it’s supposed to be a way of weighting what people write about in their admissions essays, essentially, along with other qualitative info about the applicant that may come from letters of rec, etc. I’m not defending Harvard’s current admissions process, but at the same time I think it’s 100% valid that things like “I was raised by a single parent who had to work multiple jobs to keep the lights on, and we were on food stamps for much of my childhood” or “this kid’s performance is even more remarkable in light that she’s had to commute 80 minutes each way to high school for the past few years” should have a role in the admissions process. Because it’s absolutely more impressive, and a sign of greater future potential, to have earned the kinds of grades and test scores that you need to get into Harvard, when you are living those kind of experiences.

         1. You realize that what you wrote could apply to Asians just as much as other immigrant / first generation students?

            I get the feeling that Harvard’s admissions committee must think what the NYC school’s chancellor admitted. Not all Asians are kids of science PhDs / rich suburban doctors / etc. Not by far. People are working hard to succeed, despite language barriers, economic barriers, and still, STILL prejudice and stereotyping.

         2. No, that’s not what’s happening here. The Harvard reviewers are writing things like “typical Asian, hardworking but dull.” That is not a nuanced, accurate review of the candidate’s history and struggles. Also, many Asians live in deep poverty (see the comment above about Asian-Americans living in poverty in NYC), so even if Harvard were to look at food stamp history and such, there should still be more Asian representation.

            1. I’m not arguing that it’s working correctly in this case, just that it is *supposed* to be a place to weigh qualitative data that isn’t visible elsewhere in the application. Of course it can, and should, apply to many Asian American applicants. And there should be a mechanism to ensure it’s not used to perpetuate discrimination against Asians. But it’s important to retain some way to include those qualitative, life-history factors.

   9. This is complicated. It seems likely that there is anti-Asian bias in the admissions process (although Harvard has its own statistical analysis that disputes that fact). But this lawsuit is put on by the same people who sued Texas a few years ago. Their goal is to end all consideration of race in admissions decisions. Which will probably help Asian applicants as a class (although not evenly, since there is wide variation in the income levels and family resources of different Asian-American communities) but will probably hurt black and Latinx applicants. Basically, they’ve figured out that it’s more sympathetic to have PoC as the figurehead of the movement to end affirmative action than mediocre white women. But the group that is running the lawsuit is basically all white people, it’s not actually a movement by or for Asian Americans.

      Harvard is, I think, legitimately subject to critique here – but the goal should not be to end affirmative action as a whole, but to make sure that it is not used to disadvantage groups of people (Asian Americans) who are already disadvantaged. In practice, this would mean admitting more Asian students, using race as a factor as necessary to ensure appropriate representation of black and Latinx students, and just cutting the numbers of white kids, even if it means fewer legacies/athletes/donors.

      FWIW, I’m a white lady who went to Harvard, so this would work to the disadvantage of my (also-white) kids. But they’ll be fine, as will all of the other kids who end up at Kenyon/Hamilton/Johns Hopkins/Georgetown instead.

      1. Not if Kenyon / Hamilton / Hopkins / etc. also discriminates.

         All we ask of Harvard or of anyone else is to get a fair shot (and not to be told that your quota of poor-personality Asians has been filled already).

         1. Well, my proposal was actually to allow many more Asians into Harvard (and yes, all the way down the prestige ladder), so I think we agree on that?

            But Harvard can stop discriminating against Asian applicants without ending all consideration of race. The lawsuit and much of the editorializing assumes that those two goals are necessarily linked, but they aren’t.

            Universities can treat Asian and white applicants similarly, while preserving a small preference for black and Latinx applicants. They can also (and I think probably should) give preference to Asian applicants over similar white applicants, since the former face forms of race-based discrimination that the latter do not. However, the actual goal of the people funding the lawsuit is to end all consideration of race, which will harm black and Latinx applicants. We can fix the actual problem (discrimination against Asian applicants) without doing that.

            1. Your points are excellent. Thank you for posting.

            2. Thank you.

8. I’m looking for a travel/active dress with at least short sleeves, wicking, wrinkle resistant,UPF and in a perfect world pockets. Any recs? I have checked LL Bean, REI, Patagonia, Columbia with no luck.

   1. See if Athleta has anything.

      1. +1, I’ve seen some cute stuff on there lately.

   2. Look at Sierra Trading – they often have a HUGE selection, usually from last season.

   3. Title Nine has a few, but they are either sleeveless or 3/4 sleeve.

      There’s also these? https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/us/orchid-patterned-womens-uv-dress-p13937.aspx/Purple/?utm_source=connexity&utm_medium=cpc

   4. I like Toad and Co’s Rosemarie dress. No pockets or UPF but it fits the other criteria. In general their clothes wear really well.

   5. ExOfficio?

      1. +1 to this, plus Eddie Bauer, Duluth Trading, your local outdoors store and, of all things, J. Jill (where I have had some luck on your criteria except the UPF, but all clothes have some level of UPF).

   6. travelsmith?

   7. Travelsmith?

   8. https://www.royalrobbins.com/noe-dress

   9. https://www.everlane.com/products/womens-j-goweave-short-sleeve-a-line-dress-black?utm_source=pepperjam&utm_medium=8-9711&utm_campaign=131940&clickId=2361272592

   10. Try backcountry.com.

   11. Lands End dresses in swimsuit material? May have to sew in your own pockets.

   12. Coolibar has lots of great SPF dresses :)

   13. I saw someone in a cute, professionally-appropriate but also comfy looking dress from Lululemon. I had no idea they made dresses.

   14. I just got TNF E-Z tee dress and love it. It doesn’t fit all your requirements, but it does have pockets and they have some other dress options on Zappos. I’d check all of the outdoor brands: Toad & Co, Prana, etc. Backcountry and REI are good places to look.

   15. Costco had some made by 32Below at the beginning of summer. Short sleeves with pockets. Very comfortable.

9. Hi all! I just accepted a new job. My husband and I don’t have vacation plans this year – and he just started a new job a month ago, so he doesn’t have vacation time. But, given the stress of my previous position, I am looking for some downtime in between jobs, and I know if I just do a staycation, I’m going to end up doing house projects rather than actually relaxing, so I’m looking to get away. I’m generally comfortable traveling alone, but I’m having trouble coming up with a destination! I’m looking for about 4-5 days, relatively inexpensive, North America, solo woman. I’m located in the mid-Atlantic, so there are a lot of options a few hours away by driving or flight. I’m not really a beach person, I love history, loooove good food/trying new foods. Any ideas?

   1. New Orleans. Austin. Seattle/San Juan Islands. Santa Barbara.

      So many options! Jealous!

   2. Philly?

   3. NOLA, Charleston, Quebec City. Puerto Rico if you can get a cheap flight from your city – I found the food delightful and the history in Old San Juan fascinating. Perhaps not far enough afield for you, but I’m doing Cape Cod/Nantucket/Boston solo next week, I was able to find reasonably priced lodging via Airbnb.

   4. This sounds really fun. I am more of a fresh water person than a beach person and love going to Vermont. For my 50th birthday I spent the weekend in Lancaster, PA with the hubs and kiddo. We stayed at a wonderful B&B called Lovelace Manor. I skipped all the massive Amish buffets and found lots of other good options.

      Do you like doing research? It might be fun to look at the archives of the “36-hours in …” column in the travel section of the Times and see which destination sounds like the most fun. They did a nice job on the town where I work.

   5. Charleston!

      1. I love Charleston, but this time of year it’s just miserable to be outside if you’re not on the beach and a lot of the historical charm is just wandering around outside.

         If you’re not already in/adjacent to DC, then DC and it’s lovely air-conditioned museums.

   6. Vancouver/Victoria; San Francisco; San Antonio

   7. NYC

   8. Montreal would be great. Asheville NC would also fit the bill.

   9. This time of year, I would go to a northern city because the South will just be so hot. Boston or Philly are great if you are looking for history. NYC is always a good pick, as it DC but is really hot and humid at this time of year.

      Chicago is nice this time of year, and has good museums.

      1. Second Chicago! Wonderful museums, good theater, fantastic architecture. Take the river boat architecture tour, see the “Bean” sculpture in Millennium Park, shop up Michigan Avenue, walk down Dearborn St. for all the outdoor sculpture, stroll the lakefront.

   10. I just did a long weekend in Portland solo. So much good food and culture in the city and sooo many amazing hikes within 1.5 hours. I really enjoyed the coast and would consider staying a day or two at the beach there to just enjoy some downtime reading and sipping coffee

       1. Clarifying that I meant Portland, Oregon

   11. I think with your criteria, I’d do Boston and/or New England towns, San Francisco and/or Napa/Sonoma, Chicago, Vancouver, BC, Portland, OR, Seattle. I would not go to New Orleans alone.

   12. Drive up to Newport, RI. It’s a nice sized city for solo travel – lots to see, shopping and good food. You could also take a ferry to Block Island for a day trip or could book a cruise on a sailboat.

10. Can anyone speak to Betabrand’s Roundtrip Dress? Something with sleeves and pockets sounds great but I’m wondering if it holds up well for travel or looks professional enough with a jacket

11. I tried Althea and Sierra Trading and stuck out. Thanks tho Btw I don’t see the point of a sun protection dress with bare shoulders : )

12. Has anyone ever gotten their eyebrows tinted? Is it worth it? I have dark brown hair but the outer half of each of my brows are very sparse, so wondering if this would help…

    1. I get mine done about once a month, and it’s great – it fills in the fine hairs so I don’t really need to do much other than brush and maybe a little boy brow to hold them in place.

    2. Have you tried a tinted brow gel? That would give you some idea of how it might look.

    3. This is something that you can do at home yourself for $7 for a box that will last 6 months. It’s the same dye that the eyebrow artists use – the Godefroy Tint Kit. It is shockingly easy and very difficult to mess up, just follow your own eyebrow line, let it sit for 5 minutes, and remove (it is a deposit only dye, so no chemicals that can burn you/permanently change your hair color save an allergy)

       1. +1. I tint every week. It takes less than 10 minutes and I don’t have to worry about being eyebrowless at the pool. They have a really good color selection. You can add the Graphite color powder to any of their other colors to get a cooler, ashier tone. (I just use Graphite straight out of the box right now. I have dark blonde/light ash brown hair; you can keep mix on longer to get a match for darker ash brown).

          I am eyeing Baebrow tint which is even easier because you don’t have to mix but Godefroy is so easy and lasts so long, I don’t know if I’ll ever pull the trigger.

          I pay for a threading membership to keep brow the line. It’s $60 for 6 appointments within 6 months (and I tip $20 when I purchase the membership), you really can’t beat it. Waxing always costs me $25 + tip and I never really love the results; I feel like they make my sparse eyebrows even thinner and sparser. I have done my own waxing and the results are good but it’s too stressful to get everything lined up just right, so the $13/month is worth it for me.

    4. I do, maybe twice a year, and I love it. I usually pair it with a brow wax appointment. It does darken the tiny hairs so my brows look more full.
       I have light brows, though, so maybe give a call to a place that is highly rated on yelp in your area and ask what they think.

    5. I do it myself. Yes, it makes a big difference (for me). Mikelle Kennedy has a good tutorial on her blog.

    6. I used to do it, but the tint only lasted two weeks – I now use a tinted brow gel instead (Gimme Brow), which is just as effective.

13. The thread above about accepting the natural changes to our bodies as we age got me thinking: I’m also in my mid/late 30s, and I do not want to be someone who “fights” natural aging. I am taking care of myself and plan to continue to do so (exercise, eat healthily, always use sunscreen). How does one fight the cultural — and for me, family — messages that the ideal is a 20 year old body that has not had children?

    I also realize that as we age, something could go awry in my body. I’ve already noticed that it takes longer to recover from workouts, stretching is not so easy, etc. I want to accept the small things that change as I age, not run to the doctor for every small twinge, and embrace my life and the natural process. Any advice?

    1. “I am more than my body. I am more than my body. I am more than my body.” Repeat, ad nauseum, including to your family members if you have to.

       1. TBH, if your family is really critical of your physical appearance, I think you need to be much more direct with them.

          “[Family Member], it hurts my feelings when you criticize my appearance. I’d like for you to stop talking about my body.”

          Family member may try to protest – s/he didn’t *mean* to hurt your feelings. Shut that down. “You may not have intended to hurt my feelings, but when you say things like this – which you often do – I hear you telling me that I’m [fat/unattractive/unappealing – whatever it is that they make you feel]. The best solution for my wellbeing is for you to stop commenting about my appearance.”

          OP, I’m in my late 30s, with a kid. In my early 30s I started I eating way more vegetables and exercising more consistently. I started doing so to lose weight and look better. Now my mindset has shifted – I do it to stay physically healthy. I accept that my metabolism is slower, and without more drastic food/exercise changes that I may not lose weight. But I want to model a healthy lifestyle for my kid, and I don’t want to be in my 60s and have no upper body strength. I also make more of an investment in my health than I used to – I see a massage therapist for therapeutic purposes, I go to a chiropractor semi-regularly, I actually have a GP, etc.

    2. Therapy?

       Volunteer a little more to realize how truly lucky and fortunate you are?

       You are so young (I’m 50 and I still feel quite young!) in the scheme of things. This sort of fixation on aging when you are so young is usually symptomatic of other issues. Life dissatisfaction? Realizing your goals of youth are actually not as satisfying or important as you initially thought? Changing values? These are actually good things, and introspection at your age is healthy and normal.

       If you continue to exercise, eat well, and always use sunscreen, you will be healthier than 90% of the population. I’m serious. The only thing I would add to that as you get older, is make sure you get enough sleep.

       Then talk to someone, get out there and go for it, and spend more time volunteering.

    3. Why not fight it? I don’t get the perceived valor in grey hair and wrinkles and extra pounds. I’d rather feel good about myself and healthy for a long time. It’s one thing to be 80 and to have given up but why start so soon? There’s a long distance between taking care of yourself and looking like a real housewife.

       1. I think there’s some truth to this. I color my hair. I’ve adjusted my makeup and skincare routines. I’ve embraced Botox. I do a lot of yoga, in addition to my workouts, to address the flexibility issues you mention. I’m not trying to be 25 again, but I am trying to be the best version of myself at my current age. Which for me, does not yet include gray hair and “comfortable” shoes.

       2. I think the healthy idea is not to “give up” or fight aging, but rather to try to be the best version of they age you are at. You can’t look 20 at 40 so why try, but you certainly shouldn’t look 60 at 40 due to not taking care of yourself. General goals of maintaining a healthy weight and activity level, taking care of your skin to prevent sickness or cancer (which goes hand in hand with wrinkle prevention), and generally looking like you take care of yourself are the goals.

       3. Really? So we need to go along with society/hollywood’s preferences and dye our hair until we are 80, start the botox/peels/pricey skin care until we are 80, diet even though we are already exercising and being healthy until we are 80? Eating well, sunscreen and exercising isn’t giving up. That’s hard and what has been proven to be healthy and beneficial as well as will ensure we stay looking good!

          I think it’s a rough road to hoe already, and I was hoping society (and women!) were making progress. Maybe not, as apparently now I have to remove ever sprout of hair everywhere on my body except the top of my head with perfected eyebrows. How did the millenials push is to this place?!?

          I hate that a random woman I don’t know tells me I have a grey eyebrow hair with a disapproving glance while she is drawing my blood for my yearly physical. It is so easy for us to judge and make each other feel like crap. Why do we do that? I refuse….

       4. She indicated that she’s going to continue to exercise and eat well in order to remain healthy, so far from giving up being healthy for a long time is already part of her plan. The issue seems to be allowing herself to feel good about being healthy rather than only feeling good about looking thin/flat/tight/whatever which is what most people actually mean when they say “healthy”.

    4. Take more stretching/balance and strength training classes. I’m always a bit surprised/horrified by how quickly my own balance and strength go downhill when I skip workouts and seeing the older frail but ‘very thin women in my pilates and yoga classes with almost NO upper body strength or muscle tone scares me. When I did have a personal trainer she focused a ton on building core strength and flexibility as she worked with older adults and those were the main issues she faced with them.
       And definitely sunblock!

    5. Reading between the lines, I think you have a kid? Having a kid really helped me with body stuff. Not that “my body is amazing it made a baby” thing (quite to the contrary – a traumatic delivery really set me back on that front) but rather “it is essential that i teach my child to love herself by learning how to love myself.” I make a point of shutting up that jerk voice in my head, consciously, continuously, because I don’t want anything like that to get to her from me — I need to equip her to fight it when she gets it from the rest of the world. When I talk about my body without judgment, to her, it reminds me that I can actually interact with it without judgment: like, “Oops this shirt is too tight on me. It’s uncomfortable. I’ll get a bigger one.”

    6. Here are a couple things that have helped me re-train my own brain about this. First, consciously diversify the images of beauty you consume. For me, this has meant seeking out Instagram accounts that celebrate beauty beyond the young/thin/white/able-bodied paradigm. I can recommend afropunk, advancedstyle, tessholiday, wardrobeoxygen, emmastraub, and ilonaroycsmithkin for starters. Another thing I did was buy some beautiful original art featuring fat women to put up in my home. I think it really makes a difference to interrupt that steady stream of one kind of look.

       The second thing is to challenge your inner monologue when it comes to people’s looks. If you find yourself thinking something negative about someone’s appearance, force yourself to stop and notice something nice about their appearance as well. For example if you think to yourself, “Yuck, look at her frizzy gray hair.” Rewind in your mind and think, “She is really pulling off that bold floral dress.” This seems silly, but training yourself to be kinder to others will help you be kinder to yourself as well.

       1. These pieces of advice are good! I remember making a conscious effort to this a few years ago, walking down the street in Chicago mentally complimenting all the women I passed — “cute shoes!” “bold pattern mixing!” “you look so professional!” — and what a good mood it put me in.

          1. Yes! Ever since I started doing this, I feel like I am surrounded by beauty all the time! I am constantly marveling at women’s outfits, hairstyles, make-up, accessories, etc. The way ordinary women put themselves together is truly amazing.

    7. Now that I’m in my thirties, what I look for is what my body is capable of doing and how I treat my body, and how I can improve both. I started getting into weightlifting, and it’s much more gratifying and self-affirming for me to be happy about increasing my strength than it is to look at the scale or the size of my clothes. I try to focus more on what my body can do, and also ways I can self-improve that aren’t at all tied to my body or physical capabilities (being less critical of others, cultivating relationships, maintaining a positive attitude). I’m always a work in progress!

14. We are selecting tile for our master bath. I’ve always wanted a pebble floor in the shower. Does anyone here have that installed in their shower? It looks great, but is it hard to clean? Any other concerns? Back up option is smaller scale version of floor tile.

    1. Have you used one somewhere else? I hate the feel of uneven pebbles under my feet. You could do sliced pebble but IMO that looks strange.

       They are prone to long-term maintenance issues. Google “pebble shower floor problems” and you will see a litany of issues.

    2. A friend of mine has this – looks great, but her husband wears flip flops every time he showers b/c it hurts his feet!

       1. This would be my concern. It does look nice, but I think it would be uncomfortable.

          1. My aunt has it in her shower – I don’t find it comfortable at all!

    3. You will have to reseal the floor yearly or every other year to prevent mold, mildew (imagine the scrubbing to clean the grout!), and it may hurt your feet. I have slate, which also requires resealing but comes in huge slabs and flat, so much easier to deal with.

    4. Designer Emily Henderson’s bl0g had a discussion about this last month. A lot of commenters said the grout is really hard to keep clean and the rocks themselves can get grungy and gross. Use the search function there to see what everyone said about it.

    5. I have showered in one and it really bothered my feet. It will also not be easy to clean. To that end, I would steer you towards larger tiles on the floor – the less grout, the FAR EASIER it is to clean. Maybe you compromise by doing a pebble mosaic or just plain tile mosaic on the wall where it would get less water?

    6. I have had one for five years now and I love it. We clean it weekly (scrubbing bubbles and a stiff broom) and it doesn’t get grungy. We had one crack in the grout about three years in and took care of it promptly – no other issues. I love the way it feels on my feet, but ymmv. We tested it out barefoot in the tile showroom before we bought it.

15. I am only 30, and I already have a deep (in my opinion) vertical line in between my brows. It’s like the 11 lines, but there is only one line. It drives me nuts! I otherwise have fine lines that don’t bother me and smooth-ish, mediocre-but-not-great-for-a-30-year-old skin.

    Would you look to get Botox and fillers? For the ones of you who do Botox, do you think it’s worth it? And how much do you spend?

    If not, do any of you use great products that may reduce a deep line between brows?

    1. For deep lines, botox or fillers are really your only options. Talk to a few dermatologists, get their opinions, and then make a decision. Botox is cheaper than Juvederm, and most doctors will run specials.

    2. Only Botox is going to help. Get that first and see if you still need filler after the muscle relaxes. You might try a retinoid to stimulate collagen in that area but that’s going to be fairly minor compared to what you can achieve with filler. So definitely botox, then maybe filler.

       Or, you can just look perpetually grumpy like me. I stopped doing botox a couple of years ago and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss it. I mostly miss the peaceful feeling of not frowning. There’s something very zen about it.

    3. I have this and tried Botox but I didn’t like how it made my eyelids look heavier (and botox won’t reduce the line – it will just prevent it from getting deeper). The derm suggested filler in that line and I may try it this fall.

    4. Botox for the line, Curology + solid moisturizer routine for the ‘mediocre skin’ part.

16. I have caved in after the free PT session that the new gym I joined offered.
    I am about to buy a package for 10 personal training classes.
    It’s very intimidating as I haven’t set foot in a gym in about 5 years after a car accident (I’m fine, just never went back). My work pays half of my gym membership so I have access to all the machines and the group fitness classes.
    How would you go about getting the most from your trainer? The gym is literally downstairs in my work building.
    My goal is to drop one size in pants, get a flat stomach and increase my energy level as I work long hours.

    1. (1) Tell your trainer your goals and problem areas; (2) Be firm with your trainer if something you’re doing is not working for you, particularly with underlying injuries; (3) It’s ok to change trainers if yours is not working for or with you; and (4) Ask about programs and workouts to do in between training sessions.

    2. Will you have the same trainer every time? If so, can you switch if it isn’t working out with that trainer?

       1. You are to pay the trainer separately like a contractor. It doesn’t have to be 10 sessions, you can also do 1.
          This trainer happened to be there when I signed up and did a quick 30 min PT induction session, then he sent me his fees if I wanted to sign up. I am so non-confrontational that I’s be mortified if I had to switch trainers and see the dumped coach every time I went to work out

    3. Also learn a routine to do without the trainer – your goal is not to work with them forever, but get something that you can do solo

17. Question on anxiety at work

    I have struggled with anxiety and panic disorder for a number of years and have been on and off medication. This winter I went off my medication and thought I was doing ok (just regular levels of stress that come with my profession and the challenges my team has faced at work). Recently my manager gave me feedback along the lines of “we can all tell you’re really stressed and it’s not good to let others—especially your direct reports—see that you’re stressed. Not sure what’s going on or what’s changed but that’s something you need to work on.”

    It became immediately very clear to me that I’m NOT handling my anxiety as well as I thought and immediately made an appointment with my psychiatrist to get back on meds. My question is two-fold:
    1) Should I explain to my manager (who I have a very good and pretty open relationship with) that I deal with anxiety issues and have taken her feedback and am working on a plan to remedy it?
    2) If your answer to #1 was no, does that change if I may need to ask for time off one day a week to start therapy in addition to medication? At our company, coming in late every once every couple of months because of a doctors appointment is not a big deal and you just stay later that day but it would be very out of the ordinary to have to come in late / leave early once every week or two.
    Any scripts on how to have this conversation?

    1. 1. I personally have not in this situation but will be interested to hear other responses.
       2. My therapist accommodates me to make sure that I am not getting more anxious about asking for time off of work. If you haven’t – ask if there are appointments outside of the listed hours.

       Also, as an aside. I know you want to jump right back to medication, but it sounds like you haven’t been in regular therapy? I would start with asking your doctors what they recommend.

       I know these aren’t specifically helpful to your situation, but realizing that my doctors want to help me worry less in all senses, including appointment times, was pretty amazing and eye opening and if you can seek that out, I would. Hugs, good luck, good for you for taking care of yourself.

    2. No, I would not tell her what your particular medical condition is. I would just tell her that you’ve been dealing with a medical condition and you’re working with your doctor to get it back under control.

       1. +1
          No natter how open you think they are, there is always a risk that they think mental illness is “lighter” than physical illness, or that you can’t handle the job and they are sitting on a time b0mb. the worst thing you need is for them to think that your responsibilities are too much for you to handle and start phasing you out.
          You managed this before, you can get it under control again. See if your doctor will accommodate Saturday appointments or after/before hours or lunchtime sessions.
          Worst case you can mention having a recurring commitment for x months but don’t specify what it is.
          Best of luck

       2. Yes, if you are in the US and you tell her you’re dealing with a medical condition will entitle you to some time off and will protect you from being discriminated against. No need to tell her anything more specific until your company’s HR department asks you to complete FMLA paperwork.

18. I’m invited to a BBQ at my cousin’s house on the weekend. I’ve asked her if I can bring something a couple times and she keeps ignoring my comments. I’m assuming this means I should stay away from bringing a salad or something and just bring wine?

    Normally I wouldn’t question things like this but this group of cousins is about 10-15 years older than me and they all have kids, and consider me to be like their younger sister

    1. I think you are right – don’t bring food. Some people like to have their own food so it goes together just how they want it. Wine is good b/c she doesn’t have to serve it at the party.

    2. She’s probably just busy/distracted, but I think bringing wine is a great idea. I would not bring something to be consumed at the party without specific direction from her.

    3. Never bring food for a party unless you’re specifically asked. I find it really unhelpful to ask people because they won’t do things like I would do I plan as if they aren’t bringing anything, which defeats the purpose of asking. Bring wine or some other hostess gift – I love when people do unique things and I try to do that. My favorite non-wine/non-flowers gifts are: new kitchen towels, a hot cookbook, good olive oil, something fresh from the farmers market (good cheese or fancy eggs), cockta*l napkins, and fancy honey.

       1. Do people really bring hostess gifts to family events?

          1. I do with my extended family. My parents and/or siblings not usually but sometimes. They’re putting on an effort to entertain me so I don’t see it that differently from something my friends would do.

          2. In my circle it would be weird.

             1. +1 – extended family get togethers (aunts/uncles/cousins) happen every so often. They usually are potluck though.

                If you wanted to bring something, I’d skip the alcohol and go with something else (lemonade/soda/etc) if there are going to be kids there. Based on a couple of family get togethers where everyone brought beer, but there was no soda.

       2. Ooh! Fancy honey. That’s a nice idea.

          1. See, that’s the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. Don’t waste your money on it. I have all sorts of random things of fancy honey, loose leaf lavender tea, and bizarre flavored “fancy” nuts from hostess gifts. I don’t really want them. Just bring me wine.

    4. For a BBQ at a family member or close friend’s hose, my H and I always bring a bottle of wine and a 6-pack of Craft Beer.

       1. This is what I do, plus a bottle of fun flavored lemonade from Trader Joe’s for kids/non-drinkers.

    5. Don’t bring food. When I’m hosting a party, planning a menu, and going to the trouble of prepping the meal, I honestly don’t want other contributions (unless I have a specific request). I have a friend who always insists on bringing something, and it’s usually a *big main dish* that’s in completely different genre from what I’m serving. I know he loves to cook, but I find it so rude and off-putting. Host your own party, dude.

       1. Yes, thank you! If someone wants to bring a small appetizer for people to enjoy while I finish cooking, fine, but don’t add to my table! I’ve planned it out so there’s enough but not too much extra, if you bring an additional main dish I may have more leftovers than I care to deal with, and honestly, I don’t want my cooking to get upstaged by someone else’s cooking! Let me show off, dangit!

          The only exception is if they have a dietary issue and they’re bringing a dish to ensure there’s something on the table they can eat, and we’ve talked about this before the party.

       2. This reminds me of a get together with kids and chaos event at my friend’s country house a few years ago. One friend was assigned bagels (and was the only one bringing bread which, as anyone with kid experience will agree is a crucial part of the day)…for reasons which to this day remain a mystery, instead of bagels, or even some other loaves of bread, she brought A HAM which then needed to be baked for like two hours.

          Do not be that person. Ever.

          1. For the love. What was she thinking? And I thought it was bad when somebody showed up to my friend’s house and announced she needed counter space to cut a giant watermelon. Friend had literally nowhere else to put food. It was so rude.

          2. This might be the funniest thing I’ve read in these comments.

          3. I asked a guest to bring bread and she brought a fondue pot, sterno, cheese and bread chunks, set it up on my living room table and ruined the table lacquer.

    6. Definitely DO NOT bring food unless you’re asked. It’s tough enough finding fridge space for what’s already been planned for the menu without having to shuffle everything around to accommodate somebody else’s contribution to the mix. Wine, yes. Craft beer, yes (I like this idea!). Flowers, only if they are already arranged an in a vase. No hostess wants to take the time to dig out a vase and arrange flowers when she has guests to tend to. And I’d tread lightly where cookbooks are concerned. Unless you know your hostess REALLY well and you know it’s a book she will want and love, I’d steer clear of cookbooks because she may consider it an insult to her cooking.

       1. Second on the cookbooks – I suggested it above, and was thinking about a specific group of friends that loves a particular kind of cookbook and it would be welcomed. As with all gifts, know your audience.

    7. I have taken breakfast items for the next morning – croissants, muffins, banana bread – as a hostess gift. After throwing parties, the host usually has a lot of clean up, and may not feel like cooking a big breakfast in the morning. I would choose items that can stay at room temperature so you aren’t taking up space in the refrigerator.

    8. Depending on how old the kids are, maybe something they can play with at the BBQ – bubbles, chalk, etc.

19. For anyone who has tried a “clinical” strength deodorant (like Secret or Dove brand you can find at the grocery store/pharmacy), do they actually work noticeably better for you than regular deodorants? I see you are supposed to apply them at night- can one still shower in the morning and not adversely affect the potency? Any specific brand recommendations?

    1. Have you tried Certain-Dri? That’s the only one where I really noticed a difference.

    2. Yes, they’re better. I like Secret’s clinical strength (despite preferring Mitchum when it comes to non-clinical). Yes, you can shower in the morning after applying antiperspirant at night (though I personally reapply after showering to get the deodorizing benefits). I’ve also used prescription strength, but the OTC “clinical” strength is gentler and can be used nightly.

       1. Yes, “clinical strength” works better than regular strength. Yes, both clinical-strength and regular-strength antiperspirants work better when applied at night.

    3. They work better for me. I just apply in morning after showering. I use the Secret Clinical Strength. I rarely notice b.o. reoccurring late in day, but not usually. That may be a hormonal variation, imo.

    4. It’s better, but only marginally so IMO. I keep some around and apply it when I shower at night (rather than the morning) and then apply my regular in the morning. As mentioned above, Certain-Dri is a totally different story and works really well, but has no deodorant properties, only antiperspirant.

20. After 9 years of marriage, my husband finally said last night that he feels bad about coming to bed in boxers and gross old T-shirts when I always wear such pretty things. (Win! He actually has noticed my night wardrobe!) I’d like to capitalize on this and get him a nice set of summer-weight PJs. Anyone have recommendations? Hoping to stay around/under $50 if possible.

    1. No recs for you but what do you wear?? Links??

       1. Haha. Nothing high-end, I promise. I actually wear a lot of vintage nightwear, along with basics like adjustable-strap slips by VS, Jones New York, etc. Last night I had a pink slip from Oscar de la Renta Pink Label under a pink and white seersucker dressing gown that was my grandmother’s. (Yesterday would have been her 101st birthday!)

          Vintage lingerie sounds kind of gross, but really, if you shop carefully, you can find some lovely things. Most of mine are under-$50 items, but it’s also possible to spend hundreds of dollars for a single nightgown or robe.

    2. Under Armour Recovery Sleepwear. It’s the fanciest, softest, silkiest workout material and doesn’t scream “matching button up pajama set”

       1. +1 I am obsessed with my UA Recovery Pajamas. But they are much more than $50

    3. Slightly over budget, but look up J Crew ‘Cotton poplin pajama set’
       Hanes has some under-budget on Prime.

    4. Lands End woven PJ sets.

21. I have a pile of white cotton tank tops that are no longer very white. They look dingy and yellowish, especially in the underarm area. Is there anything I can do to get them white again or is it a lost cause?

    1. Have you tried Oxyclean?

       1. +1 – soak them in a solution (powder dissolved in water) overnight, wash in machine and check before drying to see if they should have another soak+wash.

    2. Wash with vinegar added to your load, then air dry in direct sunlight.

    3. I would check “Ask a Clean Person”‘s advice on this.

    4. Definitely OxyClean. The gel won’t work, that’s just for spot-treating, you want to get a tub of the powder, mix a couple scoops with hot water, soak your clothes for an hour or so, then rinse them and wash as usual. Try not to get any of the presoak liquid on your hands though, that stuff is not nice to skin.

    5. I would try oxyclean first, then liquid blueing.

22. My bestie’s husband has been stationed in the Middle East (working for a defense contractor, not on the front lines, thank heaven!) and recently returned. He brought us each back a gorgeous cashmere pashmina. I have never owned something so luxurious in my life! My question is, how do I wear it? Like a scarf? And it’s 100% cashmere, but really has no care instructions. What special care do I take with it where washing is concerned?

    (And PS, yes, he is an awesome guy. No, he doesn’t have any brothers, or I’d have snatched one up for myself! My bestie is the luckiest girl in the world!)

    1. I have a little collection of pashminas I’ve picked up while traveling over the years and I call them my everything scarves. They’re perfect to use as a shawl or wrap at a wedding or other event when you may want a little extra warmth. I also use one in a less luxurious material (so nbd if it gets dirty!) as a wrap/blanket on long plane flights. In the fall and winter I fold them and wear them like a usual scarf. I like my scarves massive and cozy, so they’re perfect for this. I do a kind of waterfall effect in the front to show off the gorgeous material.
       For care, I admit I just wash them as little as possible. If I need to spot clean, I’ll use a dab of Woolite or something else really gentle.

    2. Hand wash with (very little) gentle shampoo, then hang to dry and lightly iron if needed on the reverse side. I only wash mine every few uses.

23. I’m re-writing my bio on our company’s website. Do you list latin honors for undergraduate degrees or is that juvenile? (Cum Laude if that makes a difference, which I kinda think it does.)

    1. Yes, in my industry (law) it’s fairly standard to do so.

    2. I like to think that after working for a decade or 2 it should be irrelevant but I list my Summa cum laude because I realized some clients will actually read the mini CVs and pay attention to these details.

24. So the building my office is in has a surprisingly nice gym for tenants, for which my work pays the membership fees. I have the option of paying $30/month for my own permanent locker and laundry service (meaning once a week the staff will wash the gym clothes that I keep in my locker). I typically work out 3-4x a week after work. Does this seem worth it? I’ve been trying to lug 4 days of work out clothes with me on my public transportation commute once a week and its a pain.

    1. Absolutely. Having always clean workout gear and a place to store shoes, water bottle, etc. will make your life infinitely easier. And you won’t even miss the $30.

    2. H3ll yeah that seems worth it!! Where do you work and can I get a job there?

    3. I think you answered your own question with “its a pain.” That honestly sounds amazing and a great deal if you commute by public transit. Think of it as the gym membership fee since you don’t have to pay that.

    4. Yes! Anything that makes exercise easier and more likely is a totally legit expense in my mind!

    5. I’m jealous. Go for it!

25. How do you start accessorizing your work outfits? I’m starting A100 (State Dept) and while I have bought new work clothes (thanks everyone for their suggestions last week!), I know I’ll have a higher level of polish if I have those extras (earrings, necklaces, watch, etc.) Where do you look for relatively inexpensive jewelry?

    1. Madewell (especially during their extra off sales) and Anthropologie. I get compliments all the time on extremely inexpensive jewelry from both. I also love Michelle Chang on Etsy.

       1. + 1 to Madewell – holds up pretty well too

    2. I have been surprised by how much I love the jewelry I’ve gotten from J Crew factory. The gold hasn’t tarnished at all and the earrings work well in my somewhat sensitive ears.

       1. I had the opposite experience with a pair of J Crew Factory earrings, but this may prompt me to try them again.

       2. J.Crew Factory and Talbots both have great jewelry.

          (And I had a pair of their fireball studs for years and they eventually tarnished from gold to a not-gold color that strangely works well with many of my statement necklaces. I just bought a second pair of fireball earrings for when I need really gold earrings. And I mean, they’re $10 on sale.)

    3. I find the Vivienne files pretty inspiring on accessories. Can you find a quirky little boutique that has jewelry you like? I have gotten a number of pieces recently at a little shop near me called Dandelion. That is where I discovered I like the designer Chan Luu.

    4. Banana Republic has some great statement pieces and there is almost always some kind of 30/40/50% off deal.

    5. Honestly, if you have no idea what your tastes are or what you’re looking for in jewelry I would go to Target or Kohls. The jewelry there is passably good and looks more expensive than it is. By the time they wear out you’ll know which pieces you want to replace with more expensive versions.

    6. Go to Poshmark. Great accessories for a good price, all brands. And you can make an offer on everything. I just got some Kate Spade jewelry (necklace and bracelet) brand new for not a lot of money. If you aren’t on Poshmark let me know b/c I can give you my code and we both get $5 off next purchase.

    7. Bauble Bar (sold at Nordstrom)

    8. For years I wore a Coach watch, it looked more expensive than it was. Gold studs and small pearl studs were other good early purchases. If you like them you can upgrade later.

26. H has low $perm count and I have a low egg count for my age (33). Doc is recommending IVF. This is really disappointing and I am quite depressed. Anyone have words of encouragement? Is IVF really that bad? Are there good things about it vs traditional conception? I don’t know anyone who has used ART to get pregnant so I have no one to talk to about this.

    1. Come over to the moms s!te – there are plenty of us who have gone through it! It’s not that bad!

       1. Ditto– moms site! Tons of people need help. I know it’s disappointing and expensive. Consider how okay you’d be with multiples– we managed to conceive with just Clomid and got twins, but we’d had the big talk with the fertility doctor beforehand and opinions seem to vary widely as to how many embryos they’re willing to implant depending on your age and the quality of the embryos. I was 30 at the time and they told me they would only put two in per cycle.

    2. I did a round of IVF a year ago. It was kind of a pain, all the injections and stuff, but I didn’t think it was bad at all, and I had good results. If anything I thought the extent to which this is unpleasant was overdone, but again, my experience was just that – MY experience. Good luck to you and your husband on this journey, wishing your family happiness.

    3. You might want to repost this on the Mom’s site, since it seems like lots of people have gone through it there(successfully). I would also encourage you to check out reddit’s infertility and infertilitybabies pages, especially if you have a hatred for the annoying acronyms and cutesy language that are common on the internet.

       My IVF baby is 6 months old and we did multiple rounds before success. It is not a walk in the park, but it is also not “really that bad,” at least to my mind. I had a lot of sadness and even some anger about how my husband and I didn’t get to make a baby in the traditional “romantic” way — but at the end of the day, I wanted a baby and that’s what I got. Admittedly, it does not work for everyone, and that’s also an important thing to consider — modern medicine is amazing but it is not a failsafe.

       The shots were Not Great, but they weren’t horrible either. Luckily I don’t have a needle phobia. Egg retrieval made me uncomfortable for a couple of days but nothing outrageous. I think it’s very easy to view each new step of intervention as some scary unknown, but once I got there, it was all surprisingly routine – just “what you did” to move on to the next stage. The hardest parts were emotional, not physical.

       Upsides, if you are looking for them – if you do chromosomal testing of embryos, that gives you greater peace of mind. I have a picture of my baby when he was a 5 day old embryo! There is more early monitoring, so you get greater peace of mind instead of waiting until 8 or 12 weeks to even get a sonogram.

       And, at the end – a baby is a baby. He doesn’t care if he was conceived “naturally” or in a laboratory, and I don’t either. I just feel extraordinarily fortunate to live in a time and place and to have the resources to make it possible.

    4. IVF is not that bad! I am 17 weeks pregnant with my IVF (PGS tested) baby. The big advantage of IVF + PGS for me was the reduced risk of miscarriage (i had had one already). With PGS testing, you eliminate one of the primary causes of miscarriage (chromosomal defects). You are relatively young in the fertility world, so you may not even elect to do it, but it’s definitely a plus. Other than that, though, I don’t know that there are any pluses to it over a natural conception. You have to be on a rigorous cocktail of meds through the first 12 weeks of pregnancy (including shots for many people, though I was on suppositories) which is definitely not fun. If you post an email address I can email you. You will be fine! You got this!

       1. Hindustanihawser@maildrop.cc

    5. For us the advantage over traditional conception was: it worked!
       It wasn’t THAT bad physically (more emotionally, but you may be starting in a better place that I did).

27. Talk to me about WW. My mom was on and off it throughout my childhood so I know the general system, but it has changed a lot since then.

    Continuing the 30s-metabolism conversation from earlier- I am 25 and up about 10 pounds from 2 years ago. I am short and thin, so that’s a lot. I am relatively active (running, biking, hiking) and eat pretty clean, but have a bad sweet tooth. I think the weight gain is a combo of the sweet tooth and metabolism changes. I know I do much better with specific rules than I do with self-motivation, which makes me think WW could be a good option for me.

    It feels silly to be on a “diet” when I am a healthy-looking 25 year old. But I am uncomfortable with how quickly I put on weight, and I want to get rid of it before it gets worse.

    So, talk to me about your Weight Watchers experience. Does it seem like an appropriate move here? What are the costs associated? How quickly can I realistically nab the extra 10 lb I’m carrying?

    1. I’m older than you but paying for WW to try to lose a bit of weight. Pros: you can do the online subscription and literally no one has to know that you are doing it, if you feel self-conscious about being a small person who wants to lose a small amount of weight. Cons: you do still have to track, which I’m personally kind of lazy about. It’s probably effective if you have a huge sweet tooth and follow the program because it penalizes you pretty heavily for sweets.

    2. I LOVE WW. I’ve used it for years as a way to keep tabs on that stubborn 10-15 lbs. It’s only $20/month (or less if you sign up during a special) and the app is so fun. (I’ve only ever done the app – nothing in person.) It really makes you see the values of what you’re eating. Plus, their Connect community is full of really sweet people.

       If you lose 2 lbs per week, you can have that weight gone in about a month!

    3. I actually hate it. I thought the “track some foods, don’t track others” business is a system set up for failure. I also thought it was super dumb that you can make “bread” with self rising white flour and fat free yogurt that’s many fewer points than a similar number of calories of whole grain bread. Sources of healthy fats like avocados and nuts have inflated points values. Basically, it’s an app that applies 1992’s most fashionable ideas about health and weight loss. I’m much happier tracking macros and calories in MyFitnessPal than sobbing into my Snackwell Cookies and Diet Rite.

       1. (And canceling your membership is a hot nightmare, even if you just signed up for the app.)

    4. I love it. I signed up with about 15-20 pounds to lose and it’s working well for me. The accountability of tracking has helped me get back on track. I’m generally a healthy eater but my snacking and portion control was out of whack after pregnancy/nursing/stress and WW freestyle has been helping me reign it back in without significantly changing what I eat.

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