Coffee Break: Vida Shoulder Bag

136 Comments

1. I’m struggling to adjust to all the increased costs of basic goods and also declining quality. A pre-made pizza crust that we buy to do pizza at home (to save money) is $12.99 for two small crusts per package. It’s only enough to feed a family of 3 because one of us is on a GLP-1. Every time we buy berries, no matter what store they’re from, there are at least a few moldy ones. A pair of toddler shoes that have some reputation for being good for growing feet start at $55. We tried the cheapest sandals at Target and they broke on the first wear.

   I thought making low six figures would feel different than this.

   1. Sometimes it helps to think about inflation (what amount of money was worth $55 in today’s dollars back when you set your expectations about toddler shoes?).

      Some of the food pricing is just extortion I realize (and apparently the egg industry did get in trouble for price collusion, so the conspiracy theorists were right; they were conspiring).

      For quality and food safety, I feel I need to make more an effort to make it to the farmer’s market. I never think of getting e. coli from blueberries (I’m usually more worried about hepatitis).

      1. I agree that this is a helpful way to frame it. Similarly, my BFF told me that she’d promised herself years ago that she would never pay more than $5 for her drink at Starbucks, and now it’s more than that. I asked if she made that decision back when she earned about $40-50k less than she currently does – she has admittedly seen very large salary increases in the last 6 years after being underpaid for decades – and it was. I also have to remind DH of this when he said he used to be able to go to a Thai restaurant he likes and the meal was like $10 plus tax and now it’s closer to $20 plus tax, so he thinks it’s now too expensive. But the cheaper price was 20+ years ago when he was in college.

         Without question, some stuff is just more expensive beyond inflation and there is definitely an ensh1tification aspect. Some things we just need to re-adjust our brains about what things cost.

         1. OP here and I do catch myself referring to 20-years-ago prices for some things (like sweaters) but prices have also gone up so much in just the last 5 years. We needed a smoke detector and it was $65 at our hardware store, not much cheaper at Target. They used to be like, $20 within the last 5 years.

            1. There is a huge gap in how inflation is treating people. As an example, we bought our first home with a VA loan and now that we are on the third home. we are paying only 2.5%. Our mortgage is less than many people pay for 1 bedroom apartment. OTOH, my pay has actually decreased as I am a criminal lawyer. The people who hire criminal lawyers are still relatively broke even though I occassionally get the more wealthy client. I also depend on court appointed work and there has been zero increase in the amount I make in over ten years. Some companies are giving raises but lots of state employees are still getting 2% if they are lucky.

         2. Partly this is true, and partly prices have really skyrocketed in the last 5 years. For example, the Nap Dress I bought in summer 2021 was $125 full price. The same dress (fabric, style, pattern) today, is $178. That is > 40% increase in 5 years and that’s hardly uncommon.

            1. This. The exact same car we bought two years ago now costs 20% more. The yogurt that was $4.59 a carton three years ago is now $6.89. And my “merit increase” has been 2% each of the past two years. That’s not even a COLA.

            2. +1.

            3. Travel is another big industry where prices have skyrocketed in the last 5 years even compared to inflation.

            4. I don’t know if the K shape economy stuff is right, but it does seem like some people’s incomes have skyrocketed and also as though retailers are chasing those people, while assuming that anyone left behind is shopping discount.

            5. yeah, the % of money spent by elite has definitely increased, and companies are responding to that (ie. offering more premium products at premium prices)

            6. I think they’re also offering what used to be midpriced products, now at premium prices!

               I feel like I’m being asked to pick a lane, big spender or thrifty frugal, compared to how I used to shop.

         3. A lot of things have gone up 50% in the last five years, and my salary isn’t one of those things. So telling me to “adjust my brain” isn’t really the answer, ya know?

            1. +1000.

            2. Look, my salary has gone down in plain dollars, not just inflation-adjusted (got laid off; industry is being decimated; took a pay cut after months of unemployment). Yes, I’m mad and frustrated. Yes, there are things I don’t think overall inflation does a good job of accounting for (like the wellbeing gap between someone who bought a home 10 years ago vs is renting now).

               But it’s also true that our own sense of economic well-being is subject to all kinds of heuristic traps and emotional valence, and it’s good to check where those thoughts are backed by reality, and where they’re not

   2. I am always flipping packaged fruits over to look at the bottom and I’m having a difficult time buying garlic that isn’t secretly moldy. It’s enraging.

   3. not the point of your post, but i have had good success with the Toddler Parker sneakers from Target. and i buy them on sale

      1. we used to get all of ours at sale time at like nordstrom. their return policy is open ended so you can return stuff if you don’t end up needing it. also gotten some at tjmaxx.

      2. I had good luck with Cat and Jack sneakers at Target for little kids. They are not ultra high quality but for a kid who’s going to grow out of them within a year at the very most, they always held up fine. It gets harder when the kid’s feet grow more slowly and you need sneakers that will actually last for a while.

   4. I make my own pizza dough in a bread maker I got secondhand on FB marketplace. It’s excellent and easy and cheap! Pizza is a staple in our house, so I feel you on that one.

   5. I’m highly sympathetic to this complaint in general, but when you consider that berries are basically mold bombs in the making and shipping them anywhere is challenging, I still find it pretty much miraculous that you can buy fresh berries for a price that’s even vaguely affordable year round. That’s definitely not a case of declining quality, but something that was barely possible even a few decades ago (though I personally still don’t consider them worth it compared to either frozen or fresh local in season berries).

      1. Supply chains and individual grocery stores can do wildly better or worse on both freshness and mold prevention. Sometimes it is where you live on shipping routes. Often it’s your local store letting mold settle in so that there are spores just waiting around for each new delivery.

   6. Not a whole solution, but being willing to DIY rather than springing for premade convenience foods can be a significant savings. For instance, pizza crust is so very easy to make. Flour, water, salt, maybe yeast or a little oil depending on what style you like will taste more fresh and will cut that cost by an order of magnitude. Like, enough that you can buy the better shoes.

      Although I do side eye a shoe that claims they are “better” for growing feet – is that because they are an actual medical device filling a need for the kid in question? Or just brand marketing, the way Golden Goose are “better” for me than Adidas?

      1. Sometimes you just want to buy a convenience food at a convenient price, though. That used to be a thing.

         1. That isn’t how it works though. You buy a convenience thing at a premium price.

            1. Sure, and that premium price is now 40-60% higher than just a few years ago.

         2. That’s never been how convenience foods work, though. You pay for the convenience of cutting out the time and planning to make it yourself.

            1. And you pay for the time someone else – who also needs to eat, and send their kids to school, and have a roof – spends doing that prep work instead of you.

      2. perhaps it is easy for you, but that is not really the point. see above re the nap dress, which obviously is not a necessity by any means, but still. things have gotten insanely expensive from food to clothes to airplane tickets.

         1. oh yeah, my Nap Dress comment was not meant to imply it is a must-buy, just something where it is a really easy “apples to apples” comparison of the price change given it is the identical item.

            Another less-frivolous example, yogurt used to routinely go 10 for $10 in the sale cycle, and now it’s typically 8 for $10. 25% increase in 3-4 years.

      3. “Just make it from scratch” works for SAHMs. Not so much in a dual-career couple with kids to shuttle to activities.

         1. Yeah, I find the “oh I just make it from scratch” advice frustrating. Obviously you can make everything you eat from scratch. It’s not feasible for all of us. If we’re eating pizza, it’s because we need something fast and easy that night that didn’t require me to make anything in advance. A lot of our other stuff is made from scratch but I don’t have the bandwidth to do more than I’m already doing while being a working mom. It’s wild for the price of JUST a crust to be super high – not to mention ordering a pizza from a parlor being a $50+ prospect these days.

            1. If you want a high end pizza delivered to you, it’s going to be expensive.

               If you pick up a Pizza Hut, domino’s, Papa John’s, or similar, it’s about $10.

            2. Dude, you need the pizza hut app and to call it good enough. A true pizza parlor dish is a splurge and not what I turn to when I just need a pizza on the table, and soon.

            3. Where do you live? The absolute cheapest large pizza (one topping, eight slices) at my local Papa John’s is $15.99. You can get two mediums for $25.99.

            4. Where do you live that a pizza is $50?? The chain places are like $10-15 and the fancy local places are like $20-25.

            5. Bay Area. A large BBQ chicken pizza at a well-reviewed local pizza place is $43. The mediums (too small for a family) are around $26. If you want it delivered plus tip, it’s well over $50. Obviously this is why a lot of people are doing pizza at home.

            6. Costco sells pepperoni and cheese pizza for $10. A slightly better version from the gas station is 13.99, but there are always coupons to drive it to about $10 as well. My favorite higher quality specialty takeout pizza is about $30-40.

            7. I mean yes, having someone make your pizza and deliver it to you is going to be a luxury. It always has been! If you want to live in the bay area, and have bay area stupid zoning rules to keep your property values up, the people who make and deliver your pizza are going to need to make a lot more. And that makes your pizza expensive.

               But still, there’s still Costco pizza.

            8. I live in Northern Virginia. When I go to the Pizza Hut in Arlington, so not a low cost of living area I order it online. The Pizza Hut always has a “special” that is a large one topping for nine dollars. I’ve never tried ordering it in store, so it might be more expensive if you don’t take advantage of the website. But I don’t wanna wait anyway so I’m ordering ahead.

            9. And just-the-crust is $4-$5 at trader joe’s. you can definitely buy premade pizza crust for less than OP is paying.

      4. A bag of flour costs a lot more than it used to.

         1. Less than a premade pizza crust. That’s never been a cheap food.

      5. I go for the middle road here and sometimes buy premade and sometime make a huge batch of crust to freeze in portions.

      6. Pizza dough takes hours to make, with yeast.

         1. But 90% of those hours don’t involve active work on the users part. I make huge batches when I have time and freeze it in batches. Then when I want it I pop one out of the freezer and I’m exactly where I would be in the process if I drove to the store to buy it. Yes flour is more expensive than it was. Yes there is work involved in making it. Yes, not everyone wants to make it themselves. Sure it’s easy to buy a bag of dough when shopping for cheese and topping. But making 6 to 12 batches and wrapping them for the freezer takes maybe 10 minutes longer than making one batch.

            1. There’s simply no way it takes 10 minutes longer, though. You can’t fit all of that in one bowl, for starters. I agree that it’s possible and not even THAT onerous to do but it’s not just 10 minutes more to make 12 batches as opposed to 1.

            2. Maybe you can’t, but my 5 qt stand mixer can easily handle a doubled recipe of my regular go-to dough, which makes three 14″ pizzas from just one batch. Doubled, that’s 6 pizzas large enough that one pizza is a meal for my household, more pizzas if I am making them smaller.

            3. Right, so if you need to make more than one batch, that’s multiple rounds through your stand mixer right there. It’s like those recipes from bloggers that claim they’re “20 minutes long” but all the feedback reports it taking 1.5 hours.

            4. I have a 7 qt mixer. It can handle 16 cups of flour along with the yeast water and oil required for pizza dough. I usually make 10 batches of Sally’s pizza dough which is a tad under 2 lbs per batch. I’ll time it next time I make it and report back.

            5. No, i can make multiple batches in my normal mixer at one time. It takes me less time to make dough than it does to order pizza or run to the store to pick up a premade crust.

         2. And minutes without! We do both, depending on our timeline and capacity.

      7. DIY can save a ton of money!

         Still, “convenient” for people who can DIY is so often just “accessible at all” to someone who cannot. I’m worried about people who were already maxing out what they can do physically and what they can afford (like some of my older relatives).

   7. I make pizza dough, portion it and freeze to keep the cost down to a bare minimum. I’ve never made 6 figures, but yeah, a lot of stuff that was a luxury food item, then became an everyday item, is now back to a luxury.
      If you haven’t already, check out your local Indian, Mexican and Asian markets for deals, especially on spices.

   8. On the berries, I agree they have gotten worse on the mold (i ended up buying organic this week because all the nonorganic had some obviously moldy ones), but if you are not already doing a vinegar wash on the remaining ones and storing them in a single layer, it really does help them last significantly longer. Wash in a mix of roughly 1 part vinegar to 4 parts water, the rinse, pat dry, and store in layers in an airtight container with a paper towel in between the layers. I had some blueberries that it took me about 3-4 weeks to eat them all and they were still fine when stored this way.

      1. +1 I think i learned this tip here (maybe from you!) and it has helped immensely. I have a fruit-itarian kid so berries never last longer than a week in our house, but before we started doing this they were going moldy even on that timeframe.

      2. even just the vinegar bath helps a lot. I wash them and then put them in a large open container, and they last for weeks.

      3. But you can’t do that on an already moldy batch, right? If you come home from the store and discover that three raspberries in the middle are white with mold, isn’t the rest of the small package also affected? I’ve read from food safety people that the mold you see is not all the mold there is.

         1. I’ve always just thrown out the moldy ones and eaten the rest. I’ve never gotten sick.

            1. Unless you have some kind of allergy, I don’t think you’d know. A lot of food safety is really about cancer risk.

   9. I agree, and am consistently reevaluating how to make things more affordable. I haven’t gotten a real raise in five years (any small cola was eaten up by higher health insurance costs), but prices just keep going up.

      For the pizza, I actually just buy chain pizzas because they are the cheapest. My local Pizza Hut sells a large one topping for $9 and that’s more than enough for three people.

      For berries, the only place I’ve found affordable, good quality is Costco. So I get all our berries there.

      1. OP here and my “merit” raise was 2.5% (the highest anyone in our company got). Every insurance type we have has gone up too, not to mention daycare. It’s just rough right now.

         1. Is this higher ed/non-profit? The 1-2% “merit” raises were sooo demoralizing and one of the biggest reasons I finally left. I thought the private sector was a bit better but maybe not.

            1. I’m in state gov and we got a 1% COLA this year. Incredibly demoralizing.

   10. My reaction to this is to be really, really frugal about specific things with the expectation that it will balance out in the end. I no longer have a house cleaner every two weeks (we moved, and I did not hire anyone at the new house) ($300/mo). I have strongly encouraged my husband to learn to maintain the pool that came with the new house (pool service is $300/mo). I alternate streaming services ($10/mo) and cancel ESPN ($30/mo) during the summer, since we don’t watch a summer sport. I get the bulk of my groceries at Walmart. I cook dinner that I can take as leftovers for lunch. I sold an extra car that we kept for visiting kids (insurance was $100/mo). And I am ruthless about returning things that I don’t like instead of letting them take up space for a year and then donating them. These are all things on which I wasted money in the past in the name of convenience. I still order plenty of clothes and shoes, and we have lawn service, and our house is way bigger than we really need, so I’m not super-frugal in all areas. But cutting back on some things makes a dent and makes me feel that I have some control over my spending.

       1. OP here and I think that’s what’s frustrating me – we live a pretty frugal lifestyle (with all the sacrifices that entails) and yet we’re not seeing the savings anymore to show for it. We have one kid, one car, rented until age 40, I don’t get professional haircuts more than once a year, haven’t been on a plane in two years (although we’d like to travel more), we don’t have gym memberships, we don’t have Netflix, we rarely buy clothes and if we do it’s Target/Costco level, etc. It seems like our lifestyle should leave TONS left over but between daycare and the costs for basics skyrocketing, it’s just…not. That’s what I meant by thinking it would feel different to have this much money on paper.

          1. It really depends on where you live and what you bring in. I’m not sure if “six figures” meant individual income of 2 working adults or household income, but I don’t think there is really anywhere in the US where you’re going to fill rich on a household income in the low $100ks, especially if you have a young child and need to pay for daycare and save for college. $200k+ starts to feel a lot more comfortable in a lot of the Midwest and South but isn’t necessarily going to go that far in the HCOL coastal cities.

             1. I should have said it, but it’s not just the $55 that is a different number today than twenty years ago. It’s the $100k as well.

          2. Daycare isn’t forever, just keep telling yourself that. I hear your plight, don’t have much more to add except daycare isn’t forever.

             1. +1 especially if you only plan on one kid. It’s ok to cut back on savings during these years. It’s a short window of time relative to your working life.

             2. Yes, this! The Kid Years are expensive.

   11. Yes. Husband and I make over $250K combined. I recognize that we actively make more conservative fiscal choices, but… we can’t afford takeout. Like, the price to product has become so wildly out of whack that it’s not worth it. Family of 5, we got subs from a local deli for a picnic plus a couple black and white cookies and iced teas. Close to $80.

       Husband and I know how fortunate we are for our health, our educations, and our financial literacy… there’s the old saying that being poor is expensive. We are really active with a lot of foster youth and former foster youth and… as much as it felt like graduating into the Great Recession was starting with the odds stacked against you, I see the apartment I rented in grad school for $800/mo listed for $2295/mo and feel like the odds are nearly impossible.

       1. My sister and I were just talking about the rent thing– The apartment she lived in with a roommate in 2016 rented for $1,200 at the time. Now that apartment rents for $3,100. And this is in a LCOL city!

   12. Completely agree. In 2020 I was making $120k and felt RICH. Yeah I wasn’t traveling because of the pandemic but I felt like I could afford literally whatever I wanted. Now I’m making $140k and feel like I’m doing just okay. Everything is just so much more expensive.

   13. I hear you. I ranted for a solid week the first time I had to pay over $20 for two meals at McDonalds. Now that I typed it, I feel the rant is coming back.

       1. Subway is another good example. There’s no more “$5 footlong,” which is a price that persisted for literally years (over a decade, even). Now it’s like $12-15.

          1. I do agree that in general price increases have far outpaced inflation recently, but that Subway promotion specifically was launched in 2008 in the middle of the Great Recession when prices were artificially low for many things because so many people were out of work and not spending. I got <$300 plane tickets to Hawaii in 2011. A lot of the bounce back from those crazy low prices was the natural result of a healthy economy where more people were working. It's gotten out of control lately, but those 2008 era prices weren't actually a good thing – sooo many people were out of work with no prospect of work. As much as I miss dirt cheap plane tickets and food, it's not a time I would ever want to return to as a country because it was so bleak.

             1. A lot of people aren’t working now and have no prospect of work. But instead of low prices, there are high prices. So it’s actually worse!

             2. It’s not remotely comparable. We have 4% unemployment now, it peaked above 10% in the Great Recession and I feel like even those numbers don’t tell the full story because so many people who were technically “employed” then were vastly underemployed or not able to get into their chosen fields. It was super common for law school grads to be working at Starbucks.

                I as a young adult in 2008 and my career and the careers of pretty much everyone I knew were significantly disrupted/delayed by the economic collapse. Trust me it was a much bleaker time, even with $5 footlongs.

             3. We are the same age. I think you know that 4% number is bull. Working a few hours a week doordashing is more underemployed than working at Starbucks.

                You’re just doing better yourself this time around.

             4. I’m not speaking just of myself but of other people I know. Mostly people my age admittedly, but I also think things are much better now for new grads/young adults then they were then. Tell me which law firms no-offered their entire summer class in 2026?

             5. Things may be better for law firms than they were then, but things aren’t great there either. I think it’s different because some people are doing a lot better; there are more winners right now. But that’s not making life much easier for the people who aren’t in that category unless they’re literally getting handouts from them.

   14. It’s very easy to make your own pizza dough with a food processor or mixer with dough hook. I mean, *extremely* easy, and you can freeze it in balls and defrost the night before. A 5-pound bag of flour will make approximately 15 pizzas.

       1. Sure. Doesn’t mean the price of eggs, flour, gas, and other essentials are reasonable.

   15. Trader Joe’s has premade pizza dough for $1.69. It’s great!

       I have thrown out so many strawberries because of the mold issue. Costco has driven me crazy because I get home and there is at least one very moldy berry in the middle of the box. I took it back once and they accused me of trying it on. I said no I shopped this morning and I drove back because I’m so mad. Yes it cost more in gas but I didn’t give a damn. Don’t sell me rotten produce.

       Salary wise the big problem I’m seeing is that tax brackets have not changed. Childcare allowance is about 1.5 months of cost. The salary to hit the high band is up 5% from 2020 and costs have increased 20-25% on average.

   16. Agree on the cost of living increases being tough.

       If anybody should want a really easy pizza hack, make flatbread pizza dough. No fuss at all.

       Two thin crust pizza doughs:
       10 oz flour (any flour, does not have to be wheat or have gluten), 10 oz plain yogurt, 2 tablespoons oil (EVO is my choice), 2 teaspoons sea salt (less if table salt), black pepper.
       Combine with a wooden spoon, takes maybe a minute.

       Put half the dough between two baking sheets and flatten with hands or rolling pin.
       High temperature oven, 5-7 minutes plain, take them out, add fillings, back in until done.

2. I’ve realized every time I leave a social interaction, I beat myself up about not being right or perfect. This can run the gamut ruminating on things like responding to a story by relating instead of asking deeper questions, to panicking that a joke I made could have been taken the wrong way. Does anyone else have this? I think it is some type of social anxiety, but not sure if it’s in my head or if I am actually obnoxious/annoying in social settings.

   1. following with interest, i almost always do this unless it’s a very good friend or someone i see regularly. to the point where i get intrusive thoughts about dumb things i’ve said.

   2. It sounds like classic social anxiety. I’ve gotten much better over the years both with therapy and with simply caring a bit less. All human are boring, selfish, make weird jokes at times, etc. Unless you’re making racist/sexist/homophobic jokes, being loudly drunk and annoying in public, or monopolizing the conversation for over 5 minutes at a time I bet you’re perfectly fine and lovely.

   3. I sort of do this. I don’t think it’s anxiety since I don’t think it’s in my head, and I’m not perfectionist; I just don’t always put together the pieces until I’ve finished processing the entire interaction later. So sometimes my joke was taken the wrong way and also that is why that person said that seemingly weird that thing they said, but I didn’t put two and two together until a little later. If anything I guess I could be more anxious? I think it’s an ADHD/attention thing for me, since I do have ADHD (for real) and I feel this was better when I was medicated.

      The part that bothers me is that I never, ever forget. There are whole people I feel remember only because I flubbed a social interaction with them in 2004. So sometimes it feels like life is just a process of accumulating more of these regrets, and it feels a little heavy sometimes.

   4. Yes, although I have trained myself out of a lot of it. Some by just listening and not opening my mouth. Some by not caring so much what others might think. Some by intentionally focusing on specific actions: only ask questions about others, and only answer with a relatable moment if someone asks me specifically, don’t volunteer a story or anecdote myself for the whole evening. Have a few questions to ask that are appropriate for the setting (“how did you hear about this fundraiser?” “What is your connection to the happy couple?” etc.).

      1. OP here – I have had periods where I primarily ask questions and try to talk about myself as little as possible. However, I received a point of feedback from one person that it made it harder to connect with me, as people felt they’d shared so much about themselves but learned nothing about me. Do you feel like that the asking questions / not sharing about yourself unless asked yields overall more fruitful interactions? Was this to avoid feeling dumb because you’re too hard on yourself or to avoid actually saying anything dumb? I feel like I should train myself to go back to never sharing anectdotes about myself, since it always leads to rumination after, but I also don’t want to inhibit my ability to connect with others. Would really love your thoughts on this.

         1. Asking questions definitely helps with making new acquaintances, and more superficial encounters. But yes – avoiding speaking about yourself does make it harder for others to get to truly know you. However, I save that for people who I think are worth more investment.

            I have similar problems to the OP. What helps me a little bit is the realization that no one is really thinking about me. Honestly. Most people are quite self-centered, and don’t think twice about things that cause you angst, nevermind what you said yesterday.

            Therapy may help too. Or maybe glance at that Anxiety workbook that people have mentioned on this board before.

            1. That’s only a realization if it’s true! I learned that people think and talk about me a lot more than I think about them.

               And that is even though I definitely don’t forget the impression that people make on me. Why would I?

         2. For me, the point of this training isn’t to give myself a hard rule to never share about myself but to let the other person talk while I engage and interact based on what they are saying. Once we get in a flow of back and forth conversation, it’s just a mental check-in with myself to make sure I’m not dominating the conversation.

            Look at it this way: the focus is on having a two-way conversation. Not on getting your say in regardless of how it makes others feel, not on refusing to say anything like you are some sort of secret agent. Focus on making it a pleasant conversation rather than on what you say or don’t say.

   5. I definitely do this. Cutting back / stopping drinking really helped as I’ve found the ruminating is much worse after a couple drinks. But, it still definitely happens, particularly in the professional context.

   6. this sounds exactly like social anxiety. Really recommend the book “How to Be Yourself” to help with some of this

   7. It can also be an autism masking thing,

3. A spinoff of some recent discussions: At what age do you think adulthood begins? A lot of posters have been asserting that 18-year-olds are “adults.” I am a social scientist; in my field we consider 18- to 25-year-olds to be “emerging adults.” They are no longer children but still developing decision-making skills and independence.

   I would personally define full adulthood as beginning at college graduation or age 21 for kids who don’t attend college. By that age you should be able to support yourself, live independently, figure out how to register your car and handle insurance and do your taxes without parental guidance, etc. Kids 18-21 should be able to do a lot of things independently but may need and deserve some scaffolding and some chances to make and learn from mistakes without suffering life-altering consequences. I would say another level of maturity kicks in for most people somewhere between ages 25 and 30 when they really settle down and start pursuing long-term goals.

   1. I’m more with you — the difference in my maturity level from a HS grad to a college senior was exponential. While paying a credit card bill or not leaving towels to mold on the floor (to the recent thread) is something I do think a HS grad “18 is legally an adult” should be able to DIY… and my parents had absolutely zero involvement in managing my daily college life… sitting down with my dad to do my taxes during college was really nice!

   2. Your field defines people who don’t know how to handle insurance and do their taxes as not adults? Isn’t that a lot of adult aged people?

   3. I think friends who did this well, started young and gradually became adults. Simple things like taking responsibility for setting the table as a kid, then getting and using pocket money to buy their own clothes, then arranging the days and times of their own driving lessons say… all with a willing parent available for help if needed.

      I’m almost 50 so was coming of age in the 90s, and I feel like my own kids did a much better job of it than I did. On reflection, the resources in their school for mindfulness and emotional regulation were very helpful.

      Not sure if this is what you were asking!

   4. I agree with you. I was not at all a fully formed adult in college, but got there in my early-mid 20s. In my family, no one really thinks of college students as full-fledged adults. They have more rights and responsibilities than children but are still in the process of growing up. I’m grateful that my parents didn’t except me to become an adult overnight at 18 and provided a lot of scaffolding, particularly during my first year or two of college.

   5. At least one of those comments was in response to a comment comparing a college student to her precious baby and telling the OP that she should be so proud that she could even walk and talk. In that context, it was a pretty fair response. You’re legally an adult at 18, not an infant. I think it’s fair to consider people in the 18-25 range young adults who are still learning to be independent and may need some assistance, but they are adults, not children, and I very much doubt that many of them want to be treated as such.

      1. I thought that comment was obviously sarcasm.

         1. I wasn’t sure one way or another, I’m just saying that I wouldn’t read those responses (none of which were written by me) to say much about what people think about what it means to be an adult, they were just responding to a provocative comment, sarcastic or otherwise.

         2. I read it as not sarcasm, but musing about how strange it was to think about in the context of her tiny baby. Like how I often look at my 13 year old who’s as tall as me and think how strange it is that I was not so long ago changing his diapers and carrying him everywhere. It’s just hard to imagine how that’s possible, even when you’ve seen it happen.

            I don’t think it was intended to say what anyone should do, just musing.

   6. I’d say you’re ‘officially’ an adult once you graduate college (21/22 ish) but in general most people need to be 24-26 before true maturity kicks in. I think girls mature sooner than boys (I had a mortgage on a condo at 23, most guys I know barely had a bedframe and real furniture at that age).
      Plus, it’s generational. I’m very late Gen-X/elder millenial and I was a latch key kid who was cooking full meals on weekdays while taking care of my siblings. I knew perfectly well how to run my own household at 22 because I’d been running my parent’s household since I was a teenager. Frankly moving out was relaxing – I only had to do cooking/cleaning/household chores for 1 person!

   7. I always used to say for dating purposes that there were boys, guys, and men. You didn’t become a man until you had to care for something where its life 100% depended on you. I still mostly agree with that idea; I don’t think you’re truly an adult until you’ve become a parent or cared for an elderly relative.

      1. I like the phrasing of boys, guys, and men and hadn’t considered it until you wrote it here.

         I don’t, however, agree that you’re not truly an adult until you’ve become a parent or cared for an elderly relative. I don’t have kids and eldercare responsibilities didn’t begin until I was 40. By then, I’d been on my own financially for 20 years, had had a successful BigLaw stint, had paid off my home and car from my own solo income, was happily married, had traveled internationally alone and with others for work and personal, and had successfully run my own life at least since law school. I think I was an adult at age 25 but definitely before I started caring for my mother in the last 5 years of her life.

         1. I think “adult” is not the right word. There are obviously many adults who don’t have children or eldercare responsibilities. However, I get what that poster is saying because I do think something fundamentally changes when you become responsibility for a child or an elderly parent.

            1. Interesting. I know so many people that have retired from long storied careers without ever having been a parent or been responsible for an elderly parent. They are people who have lived full adult lives, some having been responsible for making decisions about things you may not even begin to imagine. I find that a strange standard to hold for people.

         2. Yeah I think the more salient category for adult is “are you routinely making decisions and assessing them with long term implications” like marrying, buying a house, saving for retirement, deliberately making major career decisions, etc. and I say that as a parent and someone who recently had to deal with a parent with Alzheimer’s. I was an adult years before I was a parent.

      2. I like the categories, but as a midcareer DINK without pets, the idea that I am not an adult just because I am not struggling with caring responsibilities is kind of annoying.

         1. If we’re gonna nitpick, that you chose to phrase it “struggling with caregiving responsibilities” is kind of a yellow flag.

         2. +1
            I am a 48YO DINK and very much feel like an adult. The suggestion that I haven’t matured yet is offensive.

            And before people pile on and tell me I’m too sensitive, you probably haven’t been asked when you are starting a real family for the past 25 years.

            1. This.

         3. I feel being responsible for an incapacitated spouse is a big deal if it’s ever involved 911 and an ambulance, etc., or if we fully grasp that it could at any time. It is part of what we signed up for, and it’s definitely different from just looking out for myself.

      3. Cool, glad I’m not an adult at 50 🙄

   8. My back of hand rule is once you are paying your rent and groceries. For some people that’s 18, for others it’s well into their 20s.

   9. I would be happy to sit down with an adult child to do their taxes together or talk about how to pick an insurance plan or how to register your car. But, with the exception of maybe showing them once, I expect an 18-year-old to be able to pay a credit card bill. I would expect them to be able to register their car after the first time we did it together. I expect a college kid to be able to register for classes and sign up for housing or a parking permit.

      18 to 25 may be emerging adulthood. But they only are able to handle being a true adult at 25 if they learn during that time. And they’re not gonna learn if their parents do everything for them.

   10. I think you’re right, but I also feel like some people take it too far. If your college freshman is struggling with handling all their new responsibilities, some scaffolding/support is in order. But I think about the time that my 18 year old neighbor asked me, a 16 year old high school junior to walk her home from school because her mom couldn’t come pick her up and she was scared to walk home by herself. She didn’t have any extenuating circumstances, she was just scared to walk the mile home from school by herself, a walk that I had been doing by myself since I was 8. That’s some dysfunction that some people would use the “emerging adult” label to excuse.

       1. In many ways I’m more concerned about what’s not expected yet of eight year olds, ten year olds, twelve year olds than I am about the emergent adult college students.

   11. It begins when the Avis and Budget will rent you a car, so 25. We know that adolescence has been delayed over the past 40 -50 years. Life is harder and harder.

4. what do we think of Halara as a brand? I’m getting allllllll the ads on my social and it looks so good.
   good quality? comparable to what? better or worse than Quince?

   1. Worse than quince. I’d pass.

   2. I haven’t heard good things from people who actually tried it. And I don’t love Quince either, despite their slick marketing. Honestly pay for lululemon (I realize their quality may have declined, but still head and shoulders above off brands) or Athleta if that’s your jam.

   3. I have never tried Quince but I have tried Halara. It’s really very poor quality. I returned / donated everything that I ordered. None of it was wearable.

   4. It looks like cheap junk staged well.

   5. I have one dress from Halara and really enjoy the style and comfort. Wouldn’t say it’s the highest quality, but that’s not what I bought it for.

5. To the OP considering postponing a dream move in order to avoid disappointing an adult daughter:

   Life is short! I lost my mom when she was just mid-60s. One of my happiest memories is knowing that she lived in her dream home in the 7 or so years before she died. It gave her so much joy!

   Please do not postpone a move for an adult child who will very likely want to move themselves in the next few years for a job, relationship, social life etc.

   And if you’re worried this may be hugely stressful life event for your daughter, rest assured that you have given her a beautiful childhood/young adulthood.

   1. I couldn’t agree more.

      I was one of the posters who admitted that she was a sad 34-year-old when her parents moved out of the family home. BUT, what I didn’t say was that was tempered by the fact that they were moving into a beautiful custom-built home that my mom had waited 40 years to have. She is not in the best of health anymore (though still living at home), and I am so glad that my parents were able to do that for themselves. They deserved it and sacrificed plenty.

      I had a beautiful childhood home that I will always cherish. That does not mean my parents needed to stay there forever. It’s OK, OP. You are allowed to prioritize what you and your husband want at this stage in life. If not now, when?

   2. I was one who also encouraged OP to move. My parents moved out of the family home when I was wellll into adulthood. They threw a “goodbye party” for the house and I think all of us cried a little — it’s so rare that you truly know something is The Last Time, you know? like the Insta graphic that went around awhile back about at some point your kid sits on your lap for the last time and you never realized it when it happened? — but it’s ok to acknowledge the feeling and then all move on!

      1. The fact that OP of the family home is even thinking of this in terms of her adult children’s’ feelings means it will be ok. I love the idea of a final family farewell. Best of luck to OP making new family memories in the new home.

6. What would you bring for you first week in a new office?
   I am probably going to be using a temporary desk since I have some overlap with my predecessor, so no guarantee of drawers or storage space except the desk itself.

   1. Nothing other than my purse, a water bottle, and the means to get lunch. A small notebook and pen, perhaps, but I would hold off on anything else until I see the space and get a sense for norms.

      Don’t be my 40-something colleague who treated arriving at her office like move in day at college. She brought multiple boxes of decor and had the gall to request the receptionist call maintenance to retrieve them from her car and haul them up to her desk on the first day.

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