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And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
b23
I like that a bunch. You’ve been knocking it out of the park with your picks this week, Kat! Wouldn’t you know that would happen during the first week of Lent. :)
Always a NYer
I love this blazer, it’s very classic and the lines are clean. It also looks like it could go with most of my wardrobe =)
Now for a fun threadjack. I recently jumped on board with eBooks and have started filling my library with books recommended to me. I’m reading the Dark-Hunter series by Sherrilyn Kenyon and love it! It’s paranormal romance, yes, I like romance novels. I have a few historial romances that I have to read and would love recommendations for others.
Do you ladies have any fun, well-written romances to recommend? I’m not so much into chick-lit as I am into darker and twistier (?) stories that do have happy endings. Nothing too depressing please, real life and the news covers that, I like to escape when I read, LOL. Also, any biographies that are a must read? TIA!
b23
I’m reading an awesome book about a Houston plastic surgeon in the ’70s who killed his wife. It’s called Blood and Money. It is seriously one of the best books I’ve read in a long time, and it’s not depressing, even though it’s true. It’s quite the page turner.
They made a movie of it in the early ’80s with Farrah Fawcett in it.
cc
That does not sound like a romance novel… and if it is its a scary one!
b23
Yeah, it’s not romance for sure. But it is a biography and darker and twistier. I love it so much that I’m telling everyone about it, whether it meets their criteria or not!
*In fact, I’m a little nervous that I’ve outed myself on here because I’ve recommended it to so many people in real life.
Always a NYer
That book sounds awesome, I just added it to my list of books to get!
May
Sounds like I’m going to have to try that sometime, now!
Merabella
The Outlander series is good. It is a romancy, historical fiction, time travel extravaganza. There are 7 books, and I only started reading them when I got my ereader because the books are too darn big to carry around in real life. I have really enjoyed them (I’ve read through book 4).
As for biographies, I loved reading Marie Antoinette by Antonia Fraser. It is the book that the Sophia Copolla movie was based on – don’t judge it on that account. I also really loved all of the books about the Tudors written by Allison Weir. Both Weir and Fraser are also fiction writers, so the biographies flow really well and aren’t as dry as some others can be.
Emily I
I have to agree about The Outlander series. I am a self-proclaimed book snob/former English lit major, and I only read them because my old boss insisted. Jane Austen is about as close to a romance novel as I typically get, but I stayed up at nights to finish the Outlander books.
SF Bay Associate
Interesting. I’ve seen displays of the Outlander series at Borders, but they looked like romance novels to me, which is just not my thing. How would you characterize “romancy”?
Totes McGotes
There is a LOT of doin-it. Like an exhausting amount. The story is really, really cool and it was actually really frustrating (irony?) that she kept stopping the plot so the main characters could get it on.
Totes McGotes
I actually only read the first one because I wasn’t sure if I was up to so much doin-it again.
TCFKAG
Don’t you mean lustful fornicating and flouncing?
elz
Totes, your comments “totally” make me laugh!
Totes McGotes
Hooray for validation! I have gotten a lot of that lately :)
SF Bay Associate
Thanks for the info, Totes. I’ll pass. I really like historical fiction and fantasy/scifi, but this doesn’t sound like the right series for me. My eyes will roll so hard and so often that they would probably fall out of my head.
Merabella
It is one of those series that are hard to define. It has romance novel aspects – like a leading lady and a hot red-headed Scot lover, but isn’t really all about that. They aren’t bodice rippers or anything. A good story line with romance thrown in.
N
I liked the first couple of Outlander books, but I sort of fell off in the middle of book four, and I can’t bring myself to get back into it again.
anon
Same here. I think some of the excessive violence mixed with intimacy grossed me out.
TAH
Yay! I’m so happy that I’m not the only person who reads Alison Weir’s Tudor biographies for fun! I love her books. Her fiction is good as well, although the book about Eleanor of Aquitaine was not as good as the ones about Elizabeth I and Lady Jane Grey.
Bunkster
Loved the Lady Jane Grey book!
TAH
That one is my favorite. I read that she’s writing a sequel of sorts, focusing on Lady Katherine Grey.
Amelia Bedelia
completely agree! I own them all. Eleanor was my least fave, but still read the entire thing. so interesting and well written.
Always a NYer
What about the Eleanor of Aquitaine book made it not as good as the others? She’s one of my faves and that probably would have been the one I read first.
TAH
I thought the Eleanor of Aquitaine book was very well written, but written more as a “romance” novel. For me, it was more similar to a (better written, more historically accurate) Phillipa Gregory novel than Alison Weir’s other fiction. I’m not the biggest fan of romance novels, so it’s my least favorite. That said, I’ve still read it more than once.
Gail the Goldfish
I will also agree with Outlander. The first one was a free ebook one week on my Nook, and I bought the rest of them in quick succession over the next month. They’re really, really hard to put in a genre. Historical fiction? Science fiction? Romance? Fantasy? Take your pick.
Sarah
I HATE outlander. I’m a huge reader and I love historical books (fiction and non-fiction) as well as well-written romances, but I could barely get through the first book. I have no desire to read any future books.
However, I really recommend:
*Second Allison Weir (although they are def. dry non-fiction books – she has impeccably high research standards)
*”The Pillars of the Earth”
*Phillipa Gregory books are really fun – The tutor books and you might also like the Wideacre series which is darker. Her earlier books tend to be darker while her later books have more mass-market appeal.
*Jane Green is pretty light, beach reading.
cbackson
I’ll out myself as another Outlander hater. Really disliked the hero, who I thought was a bully. There’s better historical romance out there.
Bunkster
This summer I read The Last Letter from Your Lover by JoJo Moyes. It’s both romantic and tragic and is mostly set in the 60s. There’s a B-plot that’s kind of annoying, but the main story is fabulous.
Always a NYer
I remember a while back you posted a link to your book spreadsheet and can’t find it now. It was so well organized and made me want to do the same thing with books I read now. Is it creepy if I ask you to post it again? =p
Bunkster
Nope. Here you go:
http://tinyurl.com/3qnnhyz
Always a NYer
Thanks!
Anon Canadian
That is awe inspiring. Seriously, you’re my hero. I’ve been talking about keeping track of books I’ve read for years and I’ve never gotten around to it before. But I think I’m going to start now. Right now. As in today.
Ellie
Y’all should check out Goodreads too.
Coalea
Wow – this is truly a work of art! I am on Good Reads (and technically still on Library Thing, I guess), but I like this so much.
jcb
Wow, now I feel illiterate. I barely get through a book a month! That’s so impressive.
N
(I’ve started tracking the books I’ve read in 2012, and so far I’m at 60, with a good portion of that being romance novels… well, January and February were dark and dank, I needed some HEA)
I love Sherrilyn Kenyon’s Dark Hunter series.
I would also recommend J. D. Robb’s In Death series – not as dark (though slightly dark) and fantasy, but for futuristic crime/romance – with a dash of humor tossed in for good measure, it does well on the happily ever after scale for me.
cc
60? I’m a fast reader but damn there hasn’t even been 60 days in 2012! You get one a day? Do you read for part of your job by anychance? (just wondering cuz I love to read!)
N
Honestly, I just read. I’m a rather fast reader, though some of the 60 books are fairly thin Harlequins. I’ve actually also increased how much I read (I think) since I got my Kindle and various ebook apps on my iPhone.
I don’t have a particular amount that I “need” to go through in a day. Counting is basically just to track what/how much I read.
I don’t read for my job, but I try to get some reading in while I work out. Kindle reading is ideal while using exercise bike or moderate walking. ;) I don’t get the same speed as I would if I didn’t read, but my gym doesn’t have TVs, so reading means I don’t get bored so easily.
Current reads include a biography of Queen Anne, a couple of historical romance novels… and some humoristic biographies
NOLA
I read a lot on the treadmill (on my Kindle) so I’m not reading a lot of hefty literature. Have you read any of the J.D. Robb “in death” series? They’re not romances, more detective fiction that takes place in the future, but the relationship between Dallas and Roarke is fun. They get a little formulaic but the stories are great and the characters are pretty cool. I like the whole future world she has developed.
MaggieLizer
Laurell Hamilton’s Anita Blake, Vampire Hunter series has been a guilty pleasure for about 10 years. The more recent books are kind of meh compared to the beginning of the series – they focus more on the s*x than advancing the plot – but I read them anyway. The author has a series about fairies or something that I haven’t read. If anyone here has, I’d love to hear about it!
Gail the Goldfish
I read the first of the fairy ones. You know how the Anita Blake series takes about 10 books before it completely devolves into about 4 chapters of s*x and half a chapter of plot? Yea, the fairy books pretty much start out at that point.
MaggieLizer
Thanks for the heads up. Glad to have lots of other recs for trashy books now! Thanks for the thread, Always a NYer.
Historical Fiction
I like Phillippa Gregory’s Tudor series, starting with “The Other Queen.”
b23
Oh man, those books are addicting.
Godzilla
Hmmmm. If you like Sherrilyn Kenyon, you may like Christine Feehan. I know you’re looking to load up on ebooks but I have a ridiculous amount of her Carpathian novels in paperback (I may or may not have had an unhealthy addiction to Borders when it was still around). Want them?
JT
I’d second Christine Feehan’s Carpathian series, and also add on a lighter note Kresley Cole’s Immortals series and Lynsay Sands’ Argeneau vampire series. There’s plenty of bodice-ripping, but they’re fun and, with the immortals books in particular, the women frequently kick the men’s a$$.
nona
Suzanne Brockmann – more adventure/suspense romance than paranormal. You could also try Jayne Ann Krentz and her other pen names.
Also, check out the website Smart B*tches, Trashy Books (Name redacted for posting purposes) for reviews and honest takes on quality.
SB
Second Suzanne Brockmann.
Always a NYer
Thanks so much everyone for the great recommendations, please keep them coming!!!
I just wanted to add that Lipstick Jungle by Candance Bushnell was a great read. I’ve re-read my hardcover copy so many times now I think it’s about time I get it as an eBook.
Sonya
Good paranormal/supernatural books are the Kate Daniels series by Ilona Andrews. Magic Bites/Burns/Strikes etc. It’s a wife/husband writing team, and they post snippets and fan service on their website. I’m counting down to the next release date.
zora
thanks for starting this thread, Always, these are great recommendations, i’m so glad to have more dark and twisty fiction on my list… now i just need more time to read books…
anon
Candance Bushnell is a great writer! And I was kind of surprised because her covers make it seem like the content will be totally superficial, but she’s perceptive and builds interesting characters. Very entertaining!
Accountress
Ooh, I’m not so much into the dark stories, but if anyone wants recs for kind-of happy throughout romances/chick-lit, let me know!
Anonymous
I’m not so much of a dark stories person either… would love to hear your recs!
Notalawyer
Suzanne Elizabeth Phillips and Jennifer Crusie. Julia Quinn. The Pink Carnation series by Lauren Willig.
Linda Howard’s are romantic suspense, but they can be hilarious. Try Mr. Perfect or To Die For to see if her sense of humor meshes w/yours.
Accountress
Seriously, get out of my brain, Notalawyer. Yes, for sure, to the first three. I haven’t read the last two, but I’ve heard good things of them.
Meg Cabot/Patricia Cabot- her adult contemporaries are under Meg (or Meggin), her historical romances are under Patricia. Katie MacAlister for historical romances, contemporary romances, and paranormal romances of so many varied types I can’t even name them. Eloisa James, Lisa Kleypas, Jennifer Ashley, Nicole Jordan- all historical romance. Rachel Gibson, Dierdre Martin, Kate Angell- fun contemporaries (especially if you like professional athletes)
karenpadi
I’m more of a historical romance girl myself. But I did enjoy the Masters of Time series by Brenda Joyce.
anon in DC
What are some of your fave historical romances?
karenpadi
I like Julia Quinn, newer stuff by Lisa Kleypas, Tracey Anne Warren, Meredith Duran, Joanna Bourne, some Eloisa James, Stephanie Laurens (her new trilogy is awesome), and older stuff by McNaught and Woodiweiss.
zora
oooo, for (literally) dark check out Anne Bishop’s books, especially the Dark Jewels trilogy, but really all of them. It’s kind of a fantasy, alternate universe with a super matriarchal society… with a different take on vampires, lots of magical powers and the women all seriously kick a**!! And awesome love stories. I have gone back and read them soooo many times. They are a total escape.
Some of her other books are set in a different world, but they are all very magical and fantasyish.
Godzilla
YES!!!!!!!!!! I reread her books at least once a year.
zora
YAY! I have never found anyone else who has ever heard of her, I am so glad I am not alone! And something in common with Godzilla, I almost could be one of the cool-kid-corporettes ;o)
TAH
I recently read the first Dark Jewels book (Daugher of the Blood?), and now I need to get the rest of them. I wasn’t sure that I’d like it, but my sister recommended it (she’s an erotic novelist), and I’m happy that I listed to her.
Yes, my sister is an erotic novelist, and I’m a lawyer. I guarantee that her work is more interesting! :-)
zora
you MUST read the rest of them… The first time I read them I could not stop reading till I got to the end of the third book, {sigh} now I’m going to have to read them again this weekend, I miss Jaenelle and Daemon! Ok, it’s all of your faults that I will not get any work done this weekend. ;o)
TAH
Oops. Sorry! :-)
I apologize for my earlier typos! Sheesh! I had to re-type my answer because I got the “posting too fast” message, and I guess I didn’t proof it before I hit submit.
Godzilla
But it’s expanded now! With 6 or 7 books now. It’s more than a trilogy but the original trilogy is by far the best. I wish she’d write a trilogy on Saetan.
AT
For paranormal urban with romance (and heartbreak, and s#xual tension, etc.), I love love love Kim Harrison’s The Hollows series. Book 11 just came out, and it’s one of the only paranormal/urban series that I’m still reading and look forward to. Also, Karen Marie Moning’s Fever series (5 books) was pretty hot, and the evolution of its heroine fantastic. I also read a few of her Highlander time-travel romance/adventure books, but greatly preferred the grittiness of the Fever series. If I’m going to read about time-traveling and Scotland, I’d much rather read the Outlander series.
I really enjoyed the first 10 or so Anita Blake books by Laurel K Hamilton, but she lost me after that. I tried the Merry Gentry (the fae) series, but they were like the worst of the Anita Blake books. I’m not offended or turned off by the s*xy time, but that’s really all the books were, at the expense of character development, plot, suspense, etc. I’ve read some interviews where the author gets really defensive and basically says anyone who doesn’t like the books is a prude, blah blah blah, and that just turned me off and I’ve not read anything by her again.
Praxidike
Nalini Singh’s “Guild Hunter” series is interesting, as is her Psy/Changeling series. Both of them are interesting, slightly dark, and interesting romances.
coco
This is probably too late, but biographies:
Wild Swans by Jung Chang – about growing up in Communist China
Life by Keith Richards – it’s hilarious. Long and gets old towards the end, but hilarious.
I read the recent Cleopatra bio and eh.
Romances/sort of –
Major Pettigrew’s Last Stand
Notalawyer
If you like Sherilyn Kenyon, you might try Thea Harrison or Ilona Andrews.
Romantic suspense (not paranormal)? Try Linda Howard, Karen Robards, maybe Catherine Coulter. Most of the earlier books in Suzanne Brockmann’s Troubleshooter series are great. They kind of jumped the shark in the last 3 or 4 of series.
If you want more recs, let me know.
Liana
You’ve got tons of great suggestions already, but one other you might want to check out is Katie MacAlister. Light reading of the romance/paranormal/laugh-out-loud funny variety.
And thanks for starting this thread — not only do I now have more books to add to my reading list (yay!), but also a lil’ less shame about the mind-candy I enjoy as a break from all the dense reading I do at work.
AN
You’ll adore georgette heyer for regency romances……
AN
Whoops….intended for Always a NYer above.
Selia
Ditto this – I have really enjoyed her books – have probably read about 15 of them!
Em
LOVE Georgette Heyer.
Tulliver
Her mysteries are also great. Georgette Heyer FTW!
karenpadi
If you are looking for light-hearted romance, Julia Quinn counts Georgette Heyer as a major influence.
CKB
Love, love, love Georgette Heyer, and not just for her regencies – I love her books from all time periods. And they get better each time you read them.
goirishkj
More polka dots! This makes me happy. Some of you have sparkly, some have leopard, I am obsessed with polka dots. Particularly in navy.
goirishkj
Um, I like the blazer too. I was distracted by the dress and missed the actual pick!
Emily I
Follow polka-dot lover, here. Virtual fist bump, goirishkj!
AnotherLadyLawyer
This! Mild polka dot obsession (and stripes, too!).
LawyrChk
Me too. I just scoured the BR site and couldn’t find the polka dot dress under the blazer. :(
January
I know, I’m so disappointed! I kind of want this entire outfit. :(
I'm just me
The dress is the “Dot V Neck Dress.” It’s sold out online, but I wonder if you called some stores if they would still have it?
It’s been featured on a few blogs recently, which I think contributed to it’s popularity.
I'm just me
It’s still available in Tall on the website. So if you are a tall dotty fan.
January
I am tall! And long-waisted, which usually translates to needing tall sizes in BR dresses. Thanks!
Bonnie
Too bad. I like the dress more than the jacket.
TCFKAG
Goirishkj — you know my love of the dot has been well established. I’m worried I only like the blazer because of the dress its over!
goirishkj
TCFKAG–I’m beginning to think we are twins separated at birth. If only these were SPARKLY polka dots!
TCFKAG
Sparkly polka dots might be too much. I might have a stroke.
ADL
This is my pick. If I’m not mistaken, the lining inside of the jacket does have polka dots!
SF Bay Associate
The leopard cardigan I ordered from Neiman on clearance came yesterday. I am so.very.excited!!!! I would wear it today, but that might result in being outed :). Now to find more leopard items… I wear skirts almost exclusively, so I am leery of wearing leopard heels when the whole shoe is exposed. It seems a bit too ‘loud’ to me, you know? Maybe a scarf is next on the list?
SoCal Gator
If you love polka dots and navy, there is a darling cotton popover blouse from J Crew you would adore. It is cream with cream, white and navy polka dots. It’s not online but in the stores. I bought it and have worn it a bunch. A very versatile piece.
BT
On the topic of polka dots…
Had to share: I haven’t bought anything at H&M in years (maybe a decade), but over the weekend found the cutest navy with white polka dot dress there! It is jersey, but for $35 I thought a steal! Will travel very well for vacation, etc.
Salit-a-gator
I miss H&M! I had a serious love affair with that store in college, but I live in a state sans H&M now. Every time I go on vacation I rush to check it out, but I’m always dissapointed with their stuff. This is making me want to go try again. Like everybone above, I loooove polka dots and I’m glad they’re in this season!
TechAnon
I’m clearly ready for some spring shopping, because I’m grooving on polka dots, leopard, tangerine, AND sparkly. Buy All The Trends!!
TCFKAG
I’m giggling at the image of the little stick figure dressed in a polka dot dress with a leopard hat and a tangerine broom and sparkly shoes. BUY ALL THE TRENDS!!!!
TechAnon
WEAR ALL THE TRENDS!!!!
Don’t forget the one blue-painted fingernail!
goirishkj
HA! My coworkers have to think I’m nuts as I just laughed out loud at this one.
3L
Love the blazer!
Any advice for powering through the last semester of law school? I just cannot concentrate on reading, classes, outlining and all that fun stuff… I’ve tried taking a whole weekend off to relax but it didn’t help. I have a job lined up and I wish I could start NOW instead of dealing with more school. Help?
AnonInfinity
Oh man. I just went through this (2011 grad). I was also very much looking forward to my new job. I dealt with it by writing haikus in class and repeating the mantra “If I don’t graduate, I don’t work.” It got significantly worse when the weather got nice. I wish I had words of wisdom, but all you can really do is power through IME (and remind yourself that you must graduate in order to start your fab new job).
AnonInfinity
Also, I completely abandoned reading unless there was a good chance I was going to get called on. Not proud to admit it, but it’s true. I don’t think I missed out on much, either, because when am I going to need to know something from Law & Economics in my job?
Anonymous NYer
OMG I wrote so many haikus in law school 3L year. weird.
lucy stone
I wrote law school raps dedicated to the problem of rolling backpacks in the elevators.
Miriam
No advice but I feel your pain! I’m in the same situation, except no job lined up yet and cannot get myself motivated anymore. I’m on a serious countdown for the end of classes and finals! I think this is normal though.
Magdeline
Me too. I have finally stopped reading every single thing that is assigned. I only read if (a.) I will likely get called on or (b.) I will likely use the information from the reading for a paper , a take home final, or in my future career. Honestly, I have no time to read, with work/ clinic/ internship/ weekend classes.
It is best not to get burnt out before BarBri anyway, right?
Miriam
And of course my lack of motivation means I get called on and completely humiliate myself by giving the wrong answer. You would think that would motivate me more but all it does it make me want to graduate already and rethink the career as a whole; maybe I just don’t have passion for the law like I thought I did. Needless to say this day is a total downer! At least I have chocolate wine tonight.
SF Bay Associate
Remember that if you end up lateraling from your next job, which you are statistically likely to do at some point, many firms interviewing you will want your class rank and possibly your transcript. My firm, and every recruiter I’ve ever heard from, asks for GPA and class rank. Don’t slack off now. You’re almost there.
Grade Snob
This!
Jem
I figured that the last semester was the best way to raise my GPA since other people were going to slack off. I studied almost as hard as every other semester and it worked! You never know if you’ll want to apply for a clerkship in a few years or a job that really does look at GPA so why not think that this is the semester that you get the most bang for you buck by not slacking?
phillygirlruns
i vividly remember being where you are, and it did not get any more engaging, or any easier to concentrate. unfortunately, you just have to suck it up and do it – it will go by more quickly than it seems. if it’s any consolation, this is the last time in your life where you are the only person who will be affected by the time you spend (or don’t spend) on something – while the work you’ll do as a lawyer will not always be engaging, the consequences for blowing it off or doing a half-a’d job will be much more than just a bad (or not-awesome) grade. i kind of wish i’d appreciated that when i was suffering through that first amendment class my last semester, but it’s probably for the best that i didn’t take advantage of it.
Anonymous
I’m also suffering through a first amendment class! Timely.
AnonInfinity
My 1A class was the one that I actually read for because I just loved it. I love my city and my firm, but sometimes I’m sad that I don’t live somewhere that there’s more First Amendment work.
phillygirlruns
see, my problem with the first amendment class is that, while it was interesting on an intellectual level, i knew that it would never have any practical application in my career. it just hammered home that i was not training to be a lawyer, i was jumping through the hoops to get through law school. that’s definitely true for many, if not most, of law school curriculum, but i hadn’t fully realized it until i found myself reading john locke.
LawyrChk
Take this for what it is, but I think it’s okay to slack off a little 3L. Turn in your papers and study for your exams before finals week, but you are now a “pro” at how to handle law school and should be able to manage on minimal effort.
I took a 1 week trip to Europe, took a relatively light class load, and worked on my golf game 3L, and I don’t regret it. Plus I got my highest grades ever that last semester. So I say let your mind wander and find a few fun road trips.
Maine Associate
Sorry I have no advice. Fortunately for me I planned ahead for such a circumstance when I was in law school. I did my law school’s clinic my last semester. Hang in there! You are almost there!
Miriam
I tried to plan ahead too. Did the clinic in the summer so I’m only taking 12 credits and have 4 day weekends. I think it backfired though because it’s such little work that I get used to having fun and relaxing on the weekends so it’s impossible to get back into it Tuesday through Thursday.
law talking girl
Slack off. Just do it! You’ll be okay. If you are a gunner, ignore this advice. If you don’t know what a gunner is, you are one. It will be over soon.
law talking girl
My 3L year I bought a ski pass and went skiing 3-5 times per week. Classes be damned. I stopped outlining after the first 3 weeks of 1L year. I still got decent grades.
2011 grad
I felt like this too, especially the part about being so ready to just start working. Now I sit in a soulless 70-floor downtown office building all day (even when it’s gorgeous and 75 out like today) and I’d give anything to go back to being a student and reading outside on the grass, going for a run in the middle of the afternoon, and closing the books to meet friends at 5 for dinner. I know it’s hard, but try to take advantage of every minute of these last couple of months and not spend your time wishing you could start your “grown up” life already. You’ve got the rest of your life to be a grown up.
Goosebumpy
My last semester of law school I substantially bumped up my GPA and befriended the professor who would go on to write the most amazing letters of recommendation for me (I credit him with me getting my federal clerkship). I switched jobs three time in less than three years out of law school, so yup, GPA still matters.
I also paid attention in my First Amendment class and was rewarded when one of the essays on the bar exam concerned First Amendment issues. Just keep on keepin’ on!
3L
Thanks everyone!
AnonInfinity
The Careerist just posted a story about male bosses being reluctant to sponsor up-and-coming women because they don’t want anyone to perceive any kind of s*xual attraction.
There aren’t many suggestions in the article for what the women can do to combat this. The article recommends not dating anyone at the office, and I’m sure that conducing oneself professionally will help.
Has anyone had experience with this? Tips? General thoughts?
http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecareerist/2012/02/food-fear-.html
Lyssa
I’ve wondered about that issue myself, and I really don’t think that there are any good answers. Men are worried, reasonably or not, about giving off the wrong impression – both that they could get accused of sexual harassment or that they could get suspected of acting out or trying to. Plus, as a woman, I sometimes have wondered myself if I could be worried about sending out the wrong signals (it’s easier that I’m married, of course, but not everyone is). People are going to date their co-workers, because that’s just how life is, so it can be really hard to tell, even for the people involved, whether they’re attempting to move towards a romatic relationship or just professional (so even following a rule personally against dating in the office won’t really keep anyone else from suspecting that you might be dating in the office – even if it’s a rule, people expect that it will be broken). I imagine that if we were discussing junior and senior homosexual men, the same issues would come up. I think that it’s really, really unfair of the careerist to call men “uptight” for being concerned about it. I would be, too, if I were a man (and am as a woman).
I would recommend that there should be a general rule of lunches, rather than dinner/drinks, and to generally avoid one on one time, but ultimately, it’s just not that workable of an issue. Fortunately, though, I’d say that most male juniors don’t really get that kind of relationship with a male senior, either.
Monday
This has certainly come up in my own career and networking, and it’s nice to see it studied and written about. I’m a little annoyed to–yet again–see senior men claiming the victim mantle in the article, but of course we need to know what they’re thinking so we can try to work around it. As I often mention, I’m in a male-dominated field and have never had women even to look up to (professionally), much less mentor me, so I either deal with this dynamic with the older man or I don’t get informal guidance at all.
All the strategies that I’m realizing I use are exactly the kind of fun-killing she concedes at the end of the article. Ignore or shut down comments about your appearance or questions about your personal life when you sense they’re coming from the wrong type of interest… Off-topic banter comes from him, not you… Own a loosely fitting button-front shirt in every pattern and stripe imaginable… Yes, my workday is probably less fun as a result of this dynamic, and I’m never going to be able to pal around like my male peers do. But I’m doing ok with the situation I’m in, and I hope eventually I can be the female mentor to junior women that I wish I had.
TCFKAG
I’ve heard this sort of thing many times before in other contexts and its always struck me as odd because I’ve had several very wonderful male mentors (both who were about my age and who were older) in my career (who continue to mentor me). Perhaps I’ve been lucky that they’ve had good boundaries and I have good boundaries and we’ve worked well together — but I’ve had few problems. I will agree that I tend more toward the lunch and coffee rather than drinks with mentors, but that is true of all mentors, not just males. I just get silly after one drink, so its really best left to a friend activity. I also find it helpful if you mix shop-talk with talk about their family and stuff, I really am not sure that talking about your kids could be s*xy.
This whole “I don’t want to mentor women because it might be viewed as s*xual harassment” thing irritates me no end. I think (frankly) that its the boys club way of pointing at a few instances of bad behavior by women to defend their bad behavior of favoring junior males.
Monday
This second paragraph is what I was getting at. I know that in some cases it’s a real concern, but my experience has much more been in the vein of “older dude is actually being quite inappropriate to ME, and I have zero support or leverage in dealing with it.” Whose career is at risk in these situations? He certainly doesn’t seem worried.
AnonInfinity
I agree. How often are s*xual harassment allegations actually made?
I know it happens sometimes, but I don’t know anyone in my field in my city who has ever made such an allegation (at least not through official channels — law suit or company HR). Yet most women I know would love to have a VIP informal mentor or sponsor.
young female
From my name, I’m obviously a young female, and I’ve had male bosses, with the exception of one female boss. Most of my current bosses are old enough to be my father, and I have one boss that has kind of taken me under his wing. However, it was still quite awkward to show up at the hotel bar at a conference to meet “the team” for drinks, only to find that it was just me and him (we work for the parent company, and the child company team decided to ditch “management” for a night out, so it wasn’t like he was trying something weird.) On another trip, while out with my bosses at a vendor party, someone wanted to take a picture. We didn’t all fit into the frame on the first one, so the photographer told us to lean in. This prompted one of my bosses to make sure that everyone knew that he “didn’t like me” (said in the tone of a middle schooler when accused of having a crush on someone). He was so worried that people would think he had some kind of attraction for me if he leaned in to get into the frame of the picture. So, while I think it’s unfortunate and annoying, I’ve seen it and experienced it. The best way I’ve found to combat it is to bring along a notepad and pen and leave them sitting on the table until the meal arrives. This tends to say “business meeting” vs. date. However, I haven’t really done this at dinner/happy hour, only lunches, when most people would assume that a man in a suit and a woman in a sheath dress at noon on Tuesday are probably out for a business lunch anyways.
momentsofabsurdity
My mother is usually uncomfortable with my father (high powered exec) mentoring a much younger woman. A lot of that is my mother’s own issues, but sometimes the young women he mentors DO suggest/do things that I wouldn’t suggest to my (much older) male mentor — things like, calling to chat on the weekends, suggesting drinks or dinner after work when lunch would be appropriate as well, etc.
TBH, I think the feeling is less “I don’t want to mentor younger women because I’m afraid she’ll think I’m sexually harassing her” and more “I’m nervous about mentoring younger women because of a) people’s assumptions when they see an older man taking an interest in a younger women and b) it’s probably going to piss off my wife.”
young female
I’ve been debating the dinner/drinks thing with someone my own age. I went to undergrad with him, and now he’s a recruiter with connections to a company I’d like to work with. He suggested grabbing lunch to talk about opportunities, but dinner or drinks after work would work much better. I’m happily married, and my husband would have no issue with me doing drinks/dinner with this guy, but I worry that suggesting this would come off as weird. Maybe it’s different, since we’re both the same age/career stage, and our offices are literally 45 minutes apart, so lunch would just be troublesome. I can see how the weekend calls and suggesting dinner/drinks would come across as weird.
southanon
This. The partners I have worked with have nearly always been men and have ranged from 5 to 40 years older than me. With the exception of those who were 65 and over, the male partners would regularly ask male associates to lunch or to join them for drinks after work, but not me (or any of the other female associates). Even though I am married, I got the impression after a few years of this that none of them was willing to be seen in public with me out of fear that someone would see us and assume that he was cheating on his wife. Those over 65 had apparently gotten over this fear.
Monday
Even this is a real shame, though. When I think about “I won’t mentor you because people may think we’re having an affair,” my first thought is, “what could I do differently? Not be young and female? Wear a trash bag?” It’s not fair, but the junior-level woman still loses no matter how she tries to play it. I also can’t help but think that everyone’s inappropriate assumptions should be their problem, not yours. But I know that’s not the reality.
a lawyer
Exactly my experience.
Blonde Lawyer
This has been my issue. In law school, I had an older male mentor I worked for. He was my boss and we would frequently have lunch together, walk to events together, etc. Other older male attorneys started teasing him about going out with a “young pretty lady” and asking if his wife knew about it. She did, loved me, and didn’t care. But, I know he got a little squeamish about people thinking he was doing something improper. You would think my suits made it clear that I wasn’t his lunch mistress.
As an attorney, I’ve noticed that when the partner wants to bring me to nighttime networking events, he usually invites a paralegal or assistant that hopes to pursue law school along too. I think having two of us there makes it seem more appropriate. It can all just be so very awkward and it really doesn’t need to be. I also noticed that a lot of the male associates when I worked at a bigger firm acted nervous and odd around me at events, particularly if their wives were there. It was like they were afraid to be seen talking to the young blonde chic. I do know wives that would be pissed over something like that and it sucks that their insecurities are holding the whole gender back professionally. It would be nice if more guys had the b@lls to just say “we work together, I talk to her, get over it.”
Monday
Agree. I also wish they recognized that it’s much less shady-looking for them to introduce me to their wives than to avoid introducing me to their wives. Keeping us apart–sometimes with great effort–adds to the notion that there’s something to hide.
I think sometimes guys kind of like to think that there *is* something to hide, and almost enjoy their wives being jealous, even when there’s nothing going on and never would be. Ugh, this is all so frustrating.
Blonde Lawyer
I just remembered another one. I worked in probation and parole as in intern for a female officer. Her partner was deployed in the middle east and I was essentially working full time has her new partner. He came back towards the end of the semester so I had to start going in the field with both of them instead. He told the female officer, with me sitting in the backseat, how much his wife hated that he was now stuck with a female college intern and that they had to work nights together. He was pissed at his wife for being jealous and reminded her that he “left her alone” while he was gone for a year and completely trusted her. She should trust him at work. Wife’s response was “well, okay, but is she pretty.” To which he had responded, “gorgeous.” And was forced to sleep on the couch for a week. They were cracking up about it but the whole time I’m just sitting there thinking “and this is my life. Awesome.”
Monday
Sounds like everyone was being ridiculously immature, except you. But you were made to feel like the problem.
TCFKAG
God Blonde Lawyer. I would have had trouble going back to work the next day. Or not punching them both in the face.
Also my attitude on all this “oh my god my husband can’t hang out with a younger women” thing is…if the only reason your husband isn’t sleeping with a younger colleague is because he isn’t having lunch with her or drinks with her or riding in a car with her, well, then that’s not a good sign. Now is it.
This whole thread has made me very unhappy. I’m going to go google sparkly polka dots.
Blonde Lawyer
While I think that was a conversation that did NOT have to occur in front of me, and I would preferred to have not known he had told his wife I was “gorgeous,” I wasn’t really mad at them because they were both wonderful to work for generally. He had no problem with me, and just liked b*tching about his wife constantly to the female officer. It also appeared he constantly antagonized her so referring to me as “gorgeous” didn’t mean he actually thought I was, just that he wanted to piss off his wife.
Wife had no problem with the female officer because she was, um, how do I say this delicately, much like the female football coach on Glee. It was eye opening though to learn that men catch hell at home for their female mentees/interns.
Also, what passes as acceptable conversation in law enforcement is totally different from office chat. You learn a lot about someone working in a car with them all night.
Diana Barry
I wonder whether men are unconsciously hesitant to mentor junior women. So they might not think it’s due to worries re s*xual harassment, etc., but that’s what ends up happening anyway.
I had one person who I thought was a good mentor when I first started work (a man), but then he didn’t tell me when the partners started to think about firing people (eg me). I was really PO’d that he didn’t give me the heads up – his loyalty was definitely to the firm and not to the person.
DA
Honestly, if you are not aggressively hideous and succeed in any way, someone (usually a male about your age) will imply that it was because you slept your way to the top. Having a male mentor or being close to a male boss just makes it more plausible.
Mentoring Men
On a related subject, I signed up to be a mentor to a young attorney through our local bar association. I am 17 years out: 10 of that BigLaw, 7 in house. They paired me with a very recent grad who went straight to in house after law school. I don’t know why, but I was surprised when I learned it was a young man. During the entire process of deciding whether to participate and then registering, I always assumed they would pair me with a young woman.
I assume my advice is the same, right? Be diligent. Prepare your work carefully. Get as much training as you can. Remember that your clients want solutions, not just legal answers. Etc.
I feel that I have all this advice that is not specifically work related (e.g., don’t be surprised when opposing counsel thinks you are the court reporter) that I want to give a young female lawyer, but no place to put it.
karenpadi
I’ve had several wonderful male mentors and one male “mentor” who just wanted an affair. YMMV, but here are my tips (based on my own mistakes):
1. Don’t talk about dating at work.
2. Pay close attention to body language and nervous ticks. Don’t try to maintain constant eye contact. Don’t play with hair. Don’t lick your lips (that was an unfortunate nervous tick of mine). Don’t lean in to hear him speak. Don’t wear perfume. Maintain a neutral expression.
3. You can discuss personal plans but leave out any suggestion of romance or wanting someone to join you.
4. If the wife is around, become friends with the wife. Invite the wife to lunches or dinner with your mentor.
5. If your gut says “this is making me uncomfortable/might be inappropriate”, graciously leave the situation. If you can’t, try to change the subject, bring up a client, and clear your throat repeatedly. Decline the next few invitations to lunch or dinner. Instead, handle business at the office.
6. It might be obvious, but it’s happened. Don’t drink too much on firm retreats or at firm events unless you are absolutely sure your mentor isn’t a creep. If he is a creep, stay away from him during the retreat.
anon
I am a 3L and have had almost exclusively male mentors/bosses. I even moved into the basement of one of my boss’s house when I unexpectedly needed a place to stay for 3 weeks. Maybe I’m just really lucky, but I have never felt like men hesitated to develop relationships with me. I have always gotten along well with men and I think my obvious comfort may have helped them feel comfortable as well.
Wacoal Bras
Has anyone here bought a wacoal minimizer bra? If so, could you let me know about sizing? I am ~32F in European sizes, ~34D in US sizes, but according to Wacoal’s measurement instructions (and my crappy self-measurement), I am a 36A, which I find hard to believe. Also, if these bras are actually terrible, let me know that, too. Thanks!
DDanon
I usually wear Chantelle (34DD) and find that Wacoal’s cups run a little bigger (that is, I’m a Wacoal 34D). Quality is good. Hope this helps.
BMBG
Have ’em, love ’em. I think I wear a style that has been discontinued, but I’ve been very happy with Wacoal Minimizers. Standard sizing applied for me — 32D in others, 32D in Wacoal.
Diana Barry
I tried on a couple Wacoals at Nordstrom. If you go there, they have good fitters (really!) who will bring you the size you need and know about the differences in sizing between brands.
T. McGill
I am about your size, love Fantasie bras, particularly the smoothing balcony (4520). Not particularly exciting or s!xy looking, but they get the job done, comfortably! Bare Necessities has them.
Coalea
I used to wear those almost exclusively, back when I was slimmer. I found them to be pretty true to (US) sizes.
I’ve been wearing Chantelle bras for the past few years and I like them – except just in the last couple months I’ve noticed that the little piece of plastic in the band (no idea what it’s called – it’s not the underwire, but a supplementary vertical strip of plastic sewn into the band under the armpits) has been digging into my sides and actually leaving bruises.
I think this means that the band is too tight and it’s time for a fitting…
Regardless, does anyone have recommendations for bras that are especially uplifting (brands and/or styles)? Thanks in advance!
Liana
Try Freya. Can’t say enough good things about their “uplifting” powers. Nordie’s carries them, but there are more sizes available online at Bare Necessities.
TCFKAG
If anyone was curious about yesterday’s sparkle blazer that I loved so much that was apparently from Banana Republic. Its definitely not this season, but I scoured the internet and I believe it is this one:
http://www.ecrater.com/p/13670071/banana-republic-sequined-knit-blazer
Except the one I saw the girl wearing was grey, which somehow made it cooler. Thought I’d share for the curious.
a.
Ooh, pretty.
b23
I was so curious that I went to BR’s website. That’s the one I suspected it was. It’s on sale, even, but it’s not available in gray. I agree that the gray would be even cooler, but I’m still tempted by the black one. I would never think that a sequined blazer could work in the office, but if one can, it’s this one.
TCFKAG
Wait, you found it on BR’s actual website — I s*ck at the googling apparently because I couldn’t find it there. :-P
eek
I tried to find it, too. I didn’t try sequin, I used sparkly – google, you knew what I meant! And, yes, I was still curious this morning as to what this blazer looks like.
TCFKAG
Also…something about it being grey made it read less “holiday” to me — black makes it look like a Christmas party or New Years Eve party accessory.
But still, what impressed me so much and made me so excited by it is that I’m still not sure I’d have the ladyb*lls to pull of a sparkly blazer. And now this is the second day I’ve talked about my love for this lady…she is definitely going to think I’m stalking her.
Salit-a-gator
Beautiful blazer! Glad you found it TCFKAG…my curiosity was getting the best of me and I couldn’t find it on Banana’s website. I think you’re right – the gray would be much more versatile for everday wear.
b23
Oh, I’m wrong. The blazer I found is not quite the same: http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=15221&pid=875339&vid=1&scid=859155002
eek
I like sequins in patterns like that. I could stare at them like one of those pictures.
b23
I like that one better than the one available on the BR website. Shawl collars are awesome, in my book.
TCFKAG
Plus it had full length sleeves instead of three quarter length sleeves. Made it more business like.
I’m telling you. This blazer was awesome.
zora
ooo, check this one out:
http://www.jjill.com/jjillonline/product/itempage.aspx?item=R6096E&PFID=32&BID=175766453&h=W&sk=W&sourcecode=DTRADE&cid=k108283
TCFKAG
Wow zora, that’s a pretty close match. But…I don’t know if I have the cajonas!
zora
yeah, I definitely don’t have the fallopian tubes ;o) but it’s nice to daydream….
eek
I really like it in gray. I might not wear it to work, but I would with jeans in my eek-time.
eek
I think you have l*dyballs, maybe just not sparkly (blazer at work) l*dyballs?
TechAnon
I like how the asterisk keeps moving around: ladyb*lls vs l*dyballs. If you use two asterisks, it looks more anatomical: l*dyb*alls.
We don’t have any real slang for the power associated with our reproductive organs, do we? How about cojonas? Seeds (as opposed to nuts)? Without some good slang, its hard to get the same message across:
“Do you think she’s got the fallopian tubes to win this case?”
“That was a pretty cervix-y move you pulled back there; great job!”
“Yeah, she just swung her uterus around like she owned the place.”
TCFKAG
TECHANON…I’m at WORK and I work in a CUBE and you’re going to GET ME FIRED.
But “DO you think she’s got the fallopian tubes to win this case” made me pee my pants.
hahahahha.
mamabear
My friends and I have used “ovaries” for years, as in, “She’s got brass ovaries, I’ll give her that.”
SB
Wow TechAnon. Just wow. As soon as I stop laughing, I’m going to use each and every one of these.
eek
I was on phone with SO giggling at this thread and he asked me what was so funny. Uh, that thing you just said, not TechAnon on my ladyblog.
TechAnon
That’s ladybl*g, please. No one is going to let you off the elevator first if you use uncensored language, eek.
mamabear, love the brass ovaries! Totally stealing that.
Pam
I agree that grey reads as less “holiday”. Something about the black screams evening party wear to me, whereas I would have no problem wearing the grey during the workday.
anon
Sorry, but ick.
TCFKAG
No need to apologize. Sparkly blazers aren’t for everyone. :-)
Kontraktor
Today is my last day at work before moving. I’m going on a leave of absence with my company and hoping I find work in my new location, but I may have to look elsewhere. I’m a little overwhelmed. I’ve had a rough time at this job, but people have been flooding me with such positive wishes and gifts and parties (I have had three already) that it’s just making an emotional situation even more so. I feel like I am going to break down at some point today.
Also wanted to share a random anecdote on the subject of office crushes (I know that has come up recently). Had a totally low key office crush on one of my peers for awhile, and last night at one of my gonig away events, I told him. I said, “Now that I don’t work with you, I can tell you that I kinda like you middle school style!” He laughed and said, “You know, I have always kinda liked you middle school style too.” We laughed, thought it was funny, and got over it. I feel a lot better now that we shared a laugh over it. No big deal, I think, to those who were wondering if these things are a big deal. :)
Monday
This is cute and sweet…but in terms of applying it to others, I think the pivotal factor making this a non-big deal is you moving away. When two people are going to continue being around each other, or have that option, these kinds of conversations (I always kinda liked you…) are usually starting something rather than ending it. Of course, sometimes starting something is exactly what you want!
Kontraktor
I guess my point is that sometimes acknowledging it in a casual manner seems best because it just lets you get over it. I suppose it’s easier that I’m going and that my office crush was extremely stupid and low key (unlike something that was say, serious or all consuming of me), but had I been here long term, I probably would have had to bring it up at some point, and I think just being matter of fact about something innocent (rather than blowing it up into a huge deal) can be helpful.
As in, “Eh, I like you.” “Eh, I like you too.” “Yeah. Best we move on from that.” “Yeah.”//Moves on.
Monday
My hat is off to you, then! I know that for me, “getting it out in the open” with something like that would be a very bad idea. But it’s a know-yourself thing, and again, congrats moving on such a high note.
Kontraktor
Thanks. I agree it’s good to leave on a positive note. I’ve really tried to give all my colleagues (not just my mini crush) genuine compliments about why I appreciate them and why my experiences have been valuable. I may have been a bit effusive, but honestly I feel that people want to be appreciated and feel valued, so I sort of thought.. well if I can leave people happy that they were valuable to somebody (me) and cheery with good memories in their heads, it’s a good way to leave.
MelD
The approach is also critical. I had a coworker switch jobs and declare his crush in a melodramatic manner right after he resigned. I just had the middle school-style crush and assumed it was mutual, but it may have been all-consuming for him and he just had to tell me so he had an excuse to end the friendship. I had sort of assumed it would end with his new job, so it just ended up being unnecessarily awkward for me when everyone else I work with continued to spend time with this person socially.
January
That… actually sounds like a middle school-style crush, if I remember correctly.
MelD
You probably do. I attempted to block out middle school as I wasn’t exactly the type of girl who had people crushing on me.
Dawn
Wow, you have guts! Are you both married?
I recently moved and when I left my male-dominated company, I cried many times on my last day. I felt like a blubbering fool but couldn’t stop. Super embarrassing!
Kontraktor
I’m married and he has a longer term SO. I don’t think it took guts so much… he has been a good supportive colleague of me on my rough days here. I told him that first (that I appreciated his support as a colleague) and then added my confession about my mini crush, with a clear tone of being lighthearted and good natured. I think my point was more that these things are not a big deal unless you make them out to be as such. Sometimes something stupid and meaningless can be dealt with in a way that is not so serious, and people can just move on. I’m glad I let him know because it makes me feel like I’ve nipped those silly middle school-esque thoughts in the bum now that I have tackled them head on and just gotten them out there and gotten rid of them. :)
I am not sure I will cry while here,but I feel it’s going to hit me like a ton of bricks when I am leaving the building/am by myself on my way home. Ugh. I’ll probably cry then.
Anonymous
I think that is sweet and you probably flattered him to no end. Likewise, isn’t it nice to know that you got game, even though you have no interest in cheating on or leaving your DH?
Kontraktor
That’s sort of how I feel! I am always flattered when I get compliments or people tell me in a kind and genuine (NOT skeezy//there is a huge difference and I think the difference is apparent) manner that they enjoy my company, that I dress nicely, whatever. I think it’s only when a big deal is made out of these genuine types of well-meaning compliments do things get awkward. That’s sort of my point.
I really wanted my colleagues to feel appreciated in that sort of nice/special way, so I tried to tell everybody (not just office crush) happy, nice, genuine things about themselves even if they were a bit more “intense” than an every day office nicety. I do think everybody appreciated it.
ABC
Haha, I’m married and had a crush on a law school classmate. I told my husband about it (who responded by laughing and telling me to “go for it” — haha), told the crush about it (in a very similar way that you did), and we had good laughs all around. From the thread above, I’d like to think that I’d let my husband mentor a younger woman if he’ll let me have my crushes!
SoCal Gator
I like this blazer quite a bit. It reminds me of a Boden tipped blazer that I have been eyeing. And which I actually like better. What do you think? Link to follow in separate post.
SoCal Gator
http://www.bodenusa.com/en-US/Womens-Coats-Jackets/Jackets/WE326/Womens-Tipped-Blazer.html?NavGroupID=
TCFKAG
I like this one, its a bit less nautical then the above, though the above maybe looks a little nicer (if you know what I mean). If (presuming from your name) that you are stateside, I’d go into a Banana a try this one on and at least see if you like it. :-)
locomotive
I like this so much! Especially in the pink!! I don’t think I’d be able to pull it off wearing it to work though but I love looking at it.
eek
I like it better, but think it’s less formal than the BR, if that makes sense.
Sorta related to the navy/blue thing going on recently, this is a really cute dress from Express (Keynote Halter Dress in navy/white — also comes in black leopard – RAWR!).
http://tinyurl.com/6pzqsrx
Catelyn
A paper I co-authored in college is now being published in a science journal! Even though now it’s 5 years later and I’m a lawyer. Ha. It still makes me feel special.
Godzilla
That’s pretty awesome.
AnonInfinity
Congratulations! That is fun.
Susan
Delayed gratification special! Congrats!!
springtime
That’s great! Congrats!!
Very Cool!
Very cool! If it has anything to do with your practice area, will they give your current firm as your contact info? Might as well get some marketing out of it…
Marie Curie
Damn right it should make you feel special, congrats!
AsstProf
Ugh, need to vent. My boss, a tenured faculty member, insists on me (v.v. junior faculty) taking notes during meetings, despite his two secretaries and my male peers volunteering to do it. I’m looking for another job and had a very promising interview Monday, but I’m getting to my wit’s end. I’m dying to file a grievance, but it probably wouldn’t be worth the process and the odds of a truly satisfying conclusion are slim.
Too bad the only person who will really get hurt by his idiocy is his young daughter.
Godzilla
I’m not trying to be flippant or snarky here but what would happen if you showed up to meetings with no pen or paper? Show up with a meal, your keys and cell phone. Don’t even bring your purse. Be too busy eating while listening to take notes.
Also, why does the note-taking bother you so much?
Geezerette
1. Stop doing such good job taking notes!
2. Say something like, “Oh, since I’ve done it the last X times, isn’t it someone else’s turn?”
anon for this
I can see why this might bother you but I can also see where it would be a helpful skill to learn. Where I am, departmental meeting notes must be posted, in a certain format, for our accrediting agency (SACS) to see. I am a senior, tenured faculty member and I sometimes take notes in meetings. We rotate notetaking on our admin team, so that one person doesn’t have to do it, and so the junior people can get some practice doing it. There is some skill in learning how to effectively summarize discussion the salient points without taking “minutes.” It could be that he is trying to mentor you as a very very junior untenured faculty member and it could also be that he doesn’t want the secretaries to do it because they don’t truly understand the points being discussed. I have one staff member who takes meeting notes that are so detailed that I have to fully edit them before posting them and I may as well have done it myself. Try not to take it personally.
Blonde Lawyer
If you think it is just sexism, show up at your next meeting with your writing arm in a sling or with a wrist brace on. When note taking comes up, lift it and say “sorry, can’t today.” I normally would never condone faking an injury but if it forces someone else to do it for a day then maybe the ritual/culture could change.
Tuesday
I’m in the process of reading “Getting More” by Stuart Diamond, and he actually recommends that you take advantage of being asked to scribe because it helps you control the criteria by which decisions are made. He says that if you scribe, you take the notes you want, organize the main points as you want, prepare the meeting memo as you want, and make the agenda for the next meeting as you want.
It’s the first attempt at positivity I’ve seen on this issue. I’ve always been advised to run away from scribing so as not to be confused with a secretary.
Volunteering
Kind of like volunteering to prepare the notice of ruling — if the other side is too lazy, then you get to do it the way it most benefits your client while still being true to the Court’s ruling.
University Counsel
I am in house at a large research university. If you came to me with this concern, I would observe:
1. We have an office on campus where all things discrimination related (faculty/staff/student, gender/age/race/etc) are handled. In addition to doing formal investigations (obviously not appropriate here), they are very good at having quiet conversations with senior faculty members along the lines of “no one is accusing you of doing anything inappropriate and you are not in trouble, but you might think about others’ perceptions on this matter and decide if another approach won’t save you some trouble — maybe rotating who takes minutes?”
2. On the other hand, there is no question that the senior faculty member will suspect that you went to the discrimination office (it’s possible someone else in the meetings sees what is happening and reported it, but unlikely). So you have to weigh how retaliatory he is likely to be and how much you will need him during your entire career.
3. What about you being the one to suggest that the job of note-taking rotate among all members of the department? You could add it to the next agenda directly, or put it at the end of the next minutes you take?
4. While the “showing up without a pen or with your arm in a sling” options make great fantasy, I personally think it is too passive aggressive. YMMV.
Godzilla
Yo peoples, I’m conducting a totally scientific survey of how much time people stay at home. We’ve discussed how much time we spend at work and commuting but what about the flip side? On weekdays, I’m home for 8-11 hours (usually 8pm – 7am) and on weekends, I DO NOT leave the house. Well, on Saturdays, I’m outside for around 4-5 hours but that’s it.
Is this a lot or a little? How many hours defines a homebody?
Susan
I always try to run my errands on weeknights, on the way home from work, or during lunchtime (if I’m able to get out, usually not, but I try…)
So on weekends, DH: “o-ho! you’re hibernating in your dragon’s lair this weekend!” I do not leave our place on weekends, unless DH can lure me out with the idea of a tasty restaurant meal or a museum exhibit that might catch my attention. DH is successful about 1/4 of the time he suggests something like this on a weekend.
Susan
Ugh. I meant to post “So on weekends, DH says…”
Maybe this site is correct when it tells me I’m posting too quickly…*sigh*
Diana Barry
On weekdays, I get home at 5 or 530 pm and don’t leave until the next morning at 815, unless I have an errand to run or it’s my activity night (then I am gone from 630 to 1020). On weekends, I am busy with errands and running the kids around to activities, etc., so I am home off and on but not constantly.
Diana Barry
Oh, and I do love to get out of the house BY MYSELF, but that hardly ever happens. LOL.
nev
Weekdays: home from between 8pm-10pm to 8am-9am. So 10-13 hours. I usually get groceries on the way home from work but Mr. nev handles all other errands. We don’t usually socialize on weeknights unless it’s a (implied mandatory) work event.
Saturdays: home from 4:00pm-7:00pm and 11:00pm-10:00am (yes even when we socialize on Saturdays I’m home by 11:00. Or I get suuuuper cranky.) So 15 hrs.
Sundays: home from 2:00pm to 8:00am. 18 hrs. Sunday is my “at home” day – after church we change into jammies and cook, do dishes, clean, take naps, etc. Sometimes we go to church again in the afternoon/evening.
Nonny
On weekdays, I get home at 6:30 or 8:00 (depending on whether I’ve gone to the gym after work), and very little can drag me out after that until I leave for work again the next morning (7:40). On weekends I am often travelling, either to see my SO, who doesn’t live in my city, or for various volunteer commitments, so I make the most of my quiet week nights.
eek
I don’t leave unless I have to…lunch with friends, party, or go to a sister’s house. If the weather is nice, I’ll go on a bike ride/run both days. I try to run recurring errands during the week (groceries, the stuff from target I didn’t know I need but do, prescriptions) and do more fun ones on the weekend. I like being at home, especially in the winter. I just potter around the house doing this and that. Total at home time….all, except 0-6 hours.
Bunkster
I’m single and live alone so my apartment is kind of boring. This past weekend was the first time I’d spent a weekend in in probably a year. It was nice, but I ended up cleaning, which is something I hate. Usually, I go to my parents’ or one of my sibling’s places.
Weekdays I usually get home around 5:30 and don’t leave until 7:15 the next morning. If I’m not already out of town, I usually go to a winetasting at a shop nearby and do dinner out on Friday nights. And on Mondays my sis-in-law and I watch GG and HoD at her house.
JessC
During the week, I get home between 6-7pm, leave the following morning around 8am. Except Wednesdays – I have a standing date with a group fo friends from school to play in a team trivia night at a local bar. Those nights, I’m usually home around 10pm and I may or may not stop by my place on the way to the bar.
I try to do as many regular errands as possible during the week (groceries, drop off laundry, etc.) – mostly stuff I can’t or don’t want to do on the weekend. So I probably average about 11 hours at home a day during the week. But all bets are off if I’m traveling for work.
On the weekends, it’s alot harder to gauge. If I don’t have any social activities or errands to do, my butt will stay inside all day. Otherwise, I probably spend about 6-10 hours out of the apartment.
NOLA
I usually get home at around 6:00 from the gym and I don’t go out again. I work in the city and all of the errand stuff is in the burbs so can’t do any of that after work. On Saturdays, I run my errands between about 10 and 3 (depending on how much running I have to do, haircut, etc.) then I go to the gym in the late afternoon. I rarely go out at night. On Sundays after church, I’m in for the day. That’s when I do cleaning, cooking for the week, laundry, nails.
phillygirlruns
i usually think of myself as a homebody, but maybe i’m not.
weekdays i’m not home long at all – i get home around 6:30 to walk the dogs and am back out the door by 7 to go to the gym (crossfit, in a class setting, where i hang out and work out with friends), back home by 9, butt on the couch after that – so home from 9pm-about 7/7:30am. if i don’t work out, i don’t leave after i get home between 6:30 and 7.
this goes super-double for friday nights – i usually go to an earlier class at the gym and aim to have my butt on the couch by 7 or 8. dh and i make dinner in, and the last thing i feel like doing on a friday night is interacting with anyone but my husband and dogs (and sometimes not even them). home time on a friday is about 12-14 hours (in by 7 or 8, out no later than 8:45a).
weekends i like to be out and about for a big chunk of the day – i take morning classes at the gym and run errands afterwards (grocery store, target/costco, getting nails done, etc). something about being inside my house on a weekend during daylight hours makes me feel particularly slothful. at night we usually do something social – dinner with friends on a saturday night, dinner with family on sunday night – but i like to be home at least one of those two nights for at least 2 or 3 weekends a month. i usually run my errands solo, though sometimes dh and i will go together.
Anon
I have three kids and am married, however I have always been a bit of a homebody.
I get home from work around 4-4:30 and leave the next day around 6:30. Most evenings I stay home, except Thursdays my daughter has dance class so I usually take her and then run a few errands. Sometimes my husband will take her and I will stay home with the baby instead. When the weather is nice we go to the park often. Fridays is almost always movie night (at home, with popcorn and root beer floats and a kids movie and an adult movie– but not that kind!!–for when the kids go to sleep) and Sundays I usually meet up with my parents and siblings for a meal. Saturdays just vary–we usually have to run to the store and sometimes there is a birthday party or whatever to go to. I really love staying home though!
Pam
Skoah skin care fans – 29% off online orders today only, promo code: LEAPYEAR
Equity's Darling
I know! I love skoah! I’ve raved about them before:)
I have their whole line, and they double shipped me recently, so I don’t need anything at all, because I’m so stocked up EXCEPT the serum, which I’ve been avoiding pulling the trigger on, but at 30% off, totally bought it this morning. :) Yay, leap day!
Pam
Ha! I finally pulled the trigger on the serum today too thanks to the sale!
MoMa
Anyone familiar w/Banana Republic sizing? Trying to decide what size to get this blouse in: S or M — I usually wear a 4 or 6 in shirts.
http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=70160&vid=1&pid=905407&actFltr=true
AnonInfinity
A small should be good. I find that BR runs a little larger than a lot of places (though not as large as Ann Taylor).
viclawstudent
Agree that if you’re a 4/6 in shirts you should go S at BR. At least, that’s been my experience with the Canadian version of the store; I’m assuming it’s similar south of the border.
JAS1
Anyone ever been/planning to go this year to the VOLTA NY show or the Armory show? My boyfriend is in the art business and we are both going. I have been living out in the sticks and letting my fashion energy stagnate… would love some suggestions on what to wear for the events, as well as any other tips on how to make the most of them.
If a bunch of you ladies are going to this event, amybe we can have a meet up!
Anonymous
Thinking of Banana — what does the hive think of the BR Joan dress?
http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=8917680021008&cid=69572
Not for work, obvs, but for events/going out. I take a tall in dresses so I’m psyched that it comes in tall — mostly its just black sheaths for us tall ladies — but I’m wondering if this is too costume-y.
JessC
I don’t think it’s at all costumey. The print is really lovely!
Pam
I don’t think it’s costume-y. I love it. And I’d wear it to work too! It would be totally acceptable in my (law) office (where there is admittedly a fair amount of leeway in terms of appropriate office wear).
phillygirlruns
i love the shape of that dress – i don’t think i could pull off the flowers, but wouldn’t think twice about someone else wearing it in my office. scouring now to see if it comes in any solids.
Kate
Ok ladies I need your help..
… How go you overcome procrastination? This is huge, huge problem for me and I am so frustrated from it. I just can’t seem to break it. It is so bad that I have put off applying to a graduate school despite the fact I honestly do want to go. I just always have an excuse whether it’s money, lack of time to study for the exam, the economy is bad, etc. I feel fatigued often which contributes to this so I have tried to take care of my body to help overcome this. I am sick of feel like I can’t get anything accomplished!
TCFKAG
I read Corporette? Oh wait…no…that’s not right.
There have been some other threads about this right now. I think it sounds, quite frankly, like the problem may not be procrastination so much as burn out. And maybe a little depression (you sound a bit overwhelmed!)
I find when there are tasks like this that I find distasteful, I am best served by scheduling it, in parts and giving myself concrete rewards for completing each part.
OP
I have suspected for a few years that I have experiences depression on and off. I actually have a family history of it too. My family and husband are they type of people that believe in “pulling yourself up from your boot straps” and say I just need to get off my b*tt and get things together. I honestly feel embarrassed getting counseling….I have a blessed life so I would feel a little silly trying to explain to someone why I am depressed. I actually tried to talk to a professional while I was in college, I was sleeping all day and up all night, not eating, and I dropped 2 classes, and crying all the time for no reason (which is totally out of character for me) and the woman that I had a session with told me she was surprised I even got an appointment with her because there are people much worse off than me.
I felt so embarrassed that I haven’t wanted to visit a professional since then. I’ve tried to write in a journal, even hired a life coach and I just can’t seem to break out of this pattern.
TCFKAG
Well, first off, there was a thread about depression and seeking counseling for the first time within the last couple of days on here that you should read. Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain and doesn’t necessarily have all that much to do with outside stimulants — lots of people with objectively “great” lives are depressed and its awful for them no matter what.
Second, whomever you saw in your college health center (or wherever) sounds like a total *hole. Thats a pretty terrible thing to say to anyone no matter what, and frankly the symptoms you describe at that point were interfering with major life functions! That’s serious and any decent therapist should have told you so too!
Third — I understand that your family and husband may not be super supportive. Don’t worry about your family so much (its really none of their business) but maybe try to educate yourself and your husband about the facts about depression, it might help him and you understand better whats going on (if it IS going on — obviously random lady on the internet can’t diagnose you). Sometimes men just need to see facts laid out. And to be reminded that its a medical condition that you can’t really lift bootstraps off of!
Anon
I’m sorry you are going through a difficult time.
What you describe sounds very similar to my own experience in college, including feeling I ought to just pull myself together. But I love this great description from http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html – “trying to use willpower to overcome the apathetic sort of sadness that accompanies depression is like a person with no arms trying to punch themselves until their hands grow back. A fundamental component of the plan is missing and it isn’t going to work.”
I agree that the person you saw in college sounds terrible. I’m sorry you had that situation, instead of a decent counsellor.
Even if you think it is not depression, it may be worth seeking counselling or therapy simply to talk to a neutral professional about your situation. This may be a useful tool to pinpoint causes of your procrastination and work out actions you could take. Some counsellors specialise in work issues, career direction, etc. But do be open to the possibility that depression may be causing these feelings: a (good!) professional can assess whether this is the case, and I found it immensely more convincing when I saw the facts on the page and the conclusion, by someone whose job it was to know these things, that I was ill and not just useless. Depression varies from mild to severe, short-term to lifelong and each person’s experience is different.
Please allow yourself to be imperfect and to ask for help, whether that be a couple of sessions talking through your goals for the next year and how you could actively achieve them, or therapy of some sort. And if you don’t ‘click’ with a counsellor/therapist… find someone better!
The very best of luck.
law talking girl
Get yourself to a new counselor or therapist ASAP. The first one was extremely unprofessional. People with “real” problems do not have a monopoly on depression. It can happen to anyone.
PollyD
People here seem to like the Pomodoro Technique, where you set a timer and work for 20 minutes, then take a defined break.
One thing I read recently was the phrase “action begets motivation.” It struck a chord – I’ll procrastinate waiting for the motivation fairy to come tap me with her wand, but I should be doing the opposite – just start doing SOMETHING, no matter how tiny, and the motivation will build from there. It’s not working so great for work yet, but at home I tell myself, well, I’ll just wash that one pan, and the next thing I know I have totally cleaned up the kitchen.
But that activation energy is a b*tch.
Susan
This. Still trapped under a giant boulder of inertia here.
anon
SO TRUE! It’s all about overcoming inertia!
I thought about this the other day when I came home from work bone tired and all I wanted to do was eat and go to bed, but I decided to go for a run because exercise is important to me. I felt so much more energized afterwards and ended up cooking a healthy dinner and going to the grocery store too. Sometimes you just have to take the first step, and then it’s so much easier from there.
Timely
Just yesterday, my husband and I spoke to my step-daughter’s college consultant about her self-assessment. He does a little Meyers-Briggs evaluation to help him decide which schools to recommend. Then he talks to her about the results.
One of the things he asked her about based on her assessment was “are you a procrastinator.” Apparently she was shocked that he could tell that. He told us that he suggested the following to her. Maybe it will help you, too:
* every night before you go to sleep, write down on a 3 x 5 card six things that you want to accomplish (or work on, even if not complete) tomorrow
* the six items don’t need to be written down in order of priority, they just need to be the top six things on your agenda these days
* tomorrow night, before you go to sleep, pull out the list, cross off any that you completed (and take a moment to feel good about that), and make a new list, including any carrry-over items
He suggested that she try this for 30 days and see if it helps. A week later, she apparently told him that she was doing it (that explains all the little listy-cards that I see all over our house!) and that she liked it.
mamabear
Outside of therapy, some suggestions from a lifelong procrastinator. My procrastination is usually due to one of two things: 1) tasks I have to do that I’m not interested in doing (cleaning, expense reports, performance appraisals) and 2) tasks that are so large they seem insurmountable.
for both issues, I agree with a prior poster that action begets motivation. I always, always have to break down the hated tasks and the mountain tasks into little parts. “Today I will devote 15 minutes to writing an outline of that presentation the boss asked me to make but was very vague about what he wanted me to present. Then I will run it the outline by him and ask him what he thinks.” I’m doing this now, actually, (and procrastinating by writing this note to you!) and once I started outlining the presentation, I realized I did have a better idea of what points I should share and how the presentation should be structured.
Or, “Today I will not go to lunch until I gather and scan all of my receipts from my last major business trip.” I’m not telling myself I have to do my entire expense report, just that one part of it. And you know, once I start, I probably will just do the whole thing, but I’m not forcing myself to do the whole thing, just this one step.
Also, write these sub-tasks down and cross them off as you complete them. For some reason, the satisfaction of crossing things off a list is very motivating for most of us.
“Procrastination is like mast*rbation – it’s all fun and games until you realize you’re just scr*wing yourself.”
KK
This is basically my approach as well. To-Do lists in manageable steps. Also, accept that you may just always be a procrastinator and you have to find a way to work with it (i.e. to-do lists). There’s nothing wrong with you and there probably isn’t a pill that’s going to make you wake up in the morning eager to do annoying or boring tasks.
This sunk in for me when I was talking to an attorney mentor a few years ago. I was a law student then and I was whining about by procrastinating nature and how I was going to have to change that. And she told me that I will probably always be a procrastinator and I just need to learn to work with it. Set myself deadlines etc. She said basically that if you’ve always been the kid writing an entire paper the day before it’s due, you are going to be the lawyer writing a brief the day before it’s due. At least you will be unless you figure out a way to curb that tendency. You won’t wake up one day and suddenly be a professional adult with amazing time management skills. As weird as it sounds, accepting this was the first step to doing something about it (instead of waiting for it to fix itself, as any true procrastinator would).
Liana
My hero. :) This is awesome, all the way through. Especially: “My procrastination is usually due to one of two things: 1) tasks I have to do that I’m not interested in doing (cleaning, expense reports, performance appraisals) and 2) tasks that are so large they seem insurmountable.” Double points for tasks that are yucky AND seem overwhelming. Triple if it’s also Super Important and I am likely to be evaluated on it.
One other thing I’ve found helpful is giving myself permission to have imperfect iterations of things that are really important.
Blonde Lawyer
I have responded to similar posts under a variety of handles but I’ll just use my regular one now. Consider getting checked for adult ADD and sleep apnea. No, I don’t think everyone has it just because I do. But, I had similar issues and when it finally started effecting my job I got checked out. I take a super low dose ADD med and sleep with a sleep apnea mask and have made progress. I’ve made tons of progress on the fatigue but I’m still battling the procrastination. I can only tolerate very low dose meds so that might be why I’m not seeing the full result.
OP
How do you get checked for ADD? This, in addition to depression, run in my family. My father and brother both have ADD.
Liana
A psychologist can assess your symptoms to see if they warrant further testing/assessment for ADHD. Also, depression interferes with concentration and attention, so often your provider may want you to try treating the depression first (with medication, CBT therapy, or both) to see whether there is improvement in ADHD-like symptoms along with depression symptoms. Good luck to you and good for you for wanting to take action to feel better.
Seattleite
Start with your primary care provider, who should be able to give you some names. Psychologists can evaluate you. Also, check out www [dot] chadd [dot] org. Finally, www [dot] amenclinics [dot] com. Dr. Amen has done groundbreaking research on ADD and takes a holistic approach to treatment. I have several friends who have been treated there, and are very happy with the care they are getting.
anon
All these tips are great! I’d also like to add that I think people sometimes procrastinate when they’re not sure how to start or what the best steps to take are. Also, fear of failure can prevent you from even starting too. If you’re questioning yourself and worrying about not “doing it right,” you’ll put it off and put it off. Figure out if one of these things is the real root of the issue.
Taylor
I just bought the blazer! My first Corporette-inspired purchase.
hot rollers?
Can anyone recommend any hot rollers for long hair? I usually just blow dry my hair straight, but lately the ends are looking blah, so I was thinking of trying them. I don’t want tight curls — more like loose waves that make the ends look full and pretty.
anon
I use conair big curls OR a 1 1/4 hot tools curling iron
mamabear
These are mine
http://www.amazon.com/Conair-CHV14JXR-Extreme-Jumbo-Rollers/dp/B00005A441/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1330540921&sr=8-2
and I love them. I have just below shoulder length layered hair. I rough dry my hair, stick in 8 of these, and get dressed while they set. It saves me a bunch of time over round brush drying.
Merabella
I really want to use hot rollers because I love the look that they give my hair, but I feel utterly useless in the putting them in department. Any suggestions? I feel like I’m doing it totally wrong, as it takes me FOREVER to get them in.
Susan
Threadjack – NYC Gathering
Didn’t want this to fall by the wayside. It’s sort of a send-off for K in NYC (before she goes to Florida!) My own schedule has changed– I have to step in for someone on a project during the 3/19-3/22 timeframe, but I can do something on March 7. I don’t use Facebook, so I thought I’d post it here again instead.
Metropolitan Museum of Art + food/drink afterwards (if anyone’s up for that). 3pm for Museum. Open to suggestions for after-work-hours food/drink places.
Email me at edna_mode_nyc@yahoo.com if you’re interested.
job hunting
This sounds awesome, and makes me wish I lived in NYC. Any Seattle-ites up for a trip to the SAM and drinks afterward? Not the same as the Met, but what can you do?
Sarah
Actually, the reMIX nights at the SAM are pretty fun! I’ve been to 2 and they have alcohol! So you can see art while sipping wine! I’d be up for a reMIX.
Gail the Goldfish
My brother is thinking about going to law school. I have pretty big regrets my decision to go to law school (lots of debt, crappy economy, etc) and needless to say think this is a terrible idea and am trying to talk him out of it. He currently works as a project manager for a large construction firm. He seems to like his actual job, but the company will frequently tell him he has to move to a completely different state for a new project on about a week’s notice, which he hates (he’s moved twice in the past month and a half). He’s thinking he would do some sort of construction law. I know nothing about construction law. Does anyone out there know anything about it and if job prospects would be as dismal for such a focused area of law?
Former MidLevel
What does he mean by “construction law”? That makes me think about construction contract litigation (ugh). In that case, your brother might already qualify as an expert – e.g., was the construction up to the standards of the trade – which might actually be more fun (and lucrative) than being the lawyer.
Godzilla
While engineering hasn’t been hit has hard as law, it’s still pretty tough, especially when all budgets have dried up and work is on hold. If he likes his job, why doesn’t he look into managing projects that take years to complete? Or become a project manager at a design firm? And if he really likes staying put, the grapevine has informed me that the Army Corps loves people with an engineering background, maybe that’s an option for him.
law talking girl
I practice construction law on the government side and I like it. I handle a lot of procurement issues where the bidder alleges a violation in contract procurement and the case goes through an administrative hearing, and also contract claim disputes with state contractors that also go through an administrative process. I also handle pre-construction matters like property acquisitions (via contract or eminent domain). I can’t really speak to job prospects across the country but I feel I have pretty good job security because roads, bridges, and other government facilities will always need work. Construction in my area is still a healthy industry and there is still quite a bit of government money going into capital projects.
job hunting
If he has a science/engineering background, he could also consider patent law which seems pretty lucrative compared to other areas of law. However, I would think long and hard about giving up a perfectly good career to go to law school for 3 years and then entering the job market as a newbie. Unless he has some really compelling reasons for going and is comfortable with taking on financial responsibility plus limited employment opportunities.
MsZ
DH is a lawyer, and did transactional work in BigLaw before the economy tanked. Since then (for the past 3 years) he has done construction project management for a public entity (he was an engineer in a prior career before law school). He has been miserable at that public entity since day 1 and has been looking for a new job since . . . I think if “construction law” were a thing, he would have found it. YMMV – we’re in a big Northeast city.
Blonde Lawyer
A firm I’m familiar with (I’ll call it XYZ) sells itself as doing “construction industry law.” This is from their practice group’s website:
Attorneys in the XYZ Construction Industry Group have the technical training and industry experience necessary to represent clients on complex projects such as subway tunnels, office towers, highway work, waste treatment facilities, and power plants. Terms like “CPM,” “slurry wall,” and “moment connection” don’t send us to the dictionary. This familiarity allows us to provide clients with efficient dispute resolution and counseling services.
As with a construction project, a successful legal undertaking requires input from multiple sources. We have the experience and knowledge to manage claims consultants, expert witnesses, and our own team resources so that the legal work gets done the right way, by the right people, within budget.
We efficiently research and organize large document databases so that information can be retrieved quickly and with a minimum of expense. If a matter needs to go into arbitration or litigation, we explain complex factual issues through the use of creative and compelling demonstrative exhibits. We keep our clients informed about their cases and encourage them to take an active role to ensure their satisfaction with our effort.
We have provided effective legal services in cases like the following:
A maintenance worker suffered catastrophic burns when he was engulfed in fiery ash in an electrostatic precipitator and claimed that contractors and engineers were responsible.
The owner of a restaurant chain sought repair costs and consequential damages when construction defects forced a restaurant to close for extensive repair over the busy holiday season.
Areas of Practice:
Contract negotiations for clients ranging from masonry subcontractors to international consortiums
Development and defense of contract claims on behalf of owners, prime contractors, and subcontractors.
Defense of architect/engineer malpractice claims
Gail the Goldfish
Thanks for the replies everyone.
I’m not sure what exactly he means by construction law–and I’m not sure he does. I kind of get the impression he must have worked with some lawyers at his job and decided they had nice, stable, well paying jobs and gee doesn’t that sound like fun? Maybe it’s more well-thought out than this and I don’t know it (a lot of this I’ve heard second-hand through my parents), but how he could decide that law school is a better option than his current job, I don’t know.
As for long term projects, theoretically his projects are supposed to take years to complete, I think–his first job he was in the same place 2 years, but lately I think there’s been some company turmoil, which is why he’s been moving so much (the company mainly has government contracts for work on military bases, and I get the impression maybe there’s been some issues with the contracts?). When he was living in DC/Virginia area, he enjoyed the area and talked about trying to find new job that would be similar to what he does now, but with less moving, but right after he started talking about this, the company moved him again twice very quickly and I’m not sure he’s had a chance to pursue that at all. But I’ll tell him to look into Army Corps jobs, though I’m not sure he has the degree for it (his major was Building Science rather than a technical engineering degree. I don’t really know what that means, except he once explained it as architects design the buildings and building science majors make sure they can actually be built. Can you tell my brother and I don’t talk much?)
law talking girl–any chance I could give him your email if he has questions? I want him to get a better idea of what day-to-day law work would actually involve, since I really don’t think most people understand it before they go to law school.
Godzilla
Yeah, but he has experience in engineering, so that counts a lot. And the suggestion to get certified is a good one. There are also project management certifications he can get (I think you have to be a PE to get a PMP but I’m not sure).
Other Options
What about something related to construction but with better prospects than law? I hear an awful lot these days about “green” developers who need more project managers with experience in environment-friendly construction. I think he would never want for work with that training. LEEDS etc.
Amy H.
There is a subset of construction litigation within litigation. In my (limited) experience, construction lawyers (i.e., those who do construction litigation) are very specialized, and do only this — mostly fighting about building defects and liens against/among the building contractor and all the subcontractors. The ABA Litigation Section has a subcommittee on Construction Litigation, and the website for that is here:
http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/construction/.
I did a some general real estate litigation when I was still a litigator — that was mostly arguing about who had the responsibility to complete punch lists and/or pay for different parts of a particular building/campus (including roads/parking lots/culverts) and what parts of development contracts could or could not be enforced. It was essentially breach of contract causes of action, but there were a lot of specialized vocabulary words and background concepts I had to learn. Oh, also, one of my good friends is an insurance defense attorney and a large part of his work is coverage litigation involving building defects or losses to property (he hires lots of experts in standard of care, etc.).
I think there is still litigation work out there in these two areas (three if you include insurance coverage litigation). Not sure about any hiring of new lawyers out of law school, though his expertise would be a plus. Speaking very, very generally here, skilled litigators do tend do be able to get through down cycles in the economy more easily than business side/M&A types. My theory is that when there is less money to go around, people are more apt to fight over pieces of the pie — leading to more litigation.
Finally, there are real estate “deal lawyers” who get buildings built (i.e., those who put together the construction loans and financing and draft the development contracts the real estate litigators fight over later). My DH did this for a while, and said it was very satisfying being able to point to, say, a hotel on the waterfront, and say, “I helped get that built.” There is *much, much less* of this type of legal work to go around right now (which is one of the primary reasons his practice area focus has shifted).
Nonny
Following Kat’s link to this blazer (which I love!) led me to the other one I bought over the weekend that I wanted to share with you guys yesterday:
http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=45420&vid=1&pid=429821
Don’t know why this didn’t come up on their Canadian website when I tried to find it yesterday, but glad I could find it now! I highly recommend it – I think I’ll get a ton of use out of mine.
Long and so confused
I need some “outside” advice. I apologize that this is so long, I just don’t know what else to do. I am happily engaged to a great man and I’m lucky to have him. Before I met fiance, though, I was in a long-term relationship with a man I loved very deeply. Ex and I were together when young (late college on) and after 4 years together, he tearfully broke up with me needing to “find himself” and be a grown up on his own. It was an “amicable” break up and the whole thing was very respectful, but still of course I was devastated. Now, ex works near me and we run into each other from time to time and are always friendly. We talk via email or text rarely about banal things and I am still very close friends with his brother. Fiance knows about all of this and is fine with it.
What fiance doesn’t know, though, is that I sometimes daydream I’m marrying ex instead. And that I think life would make more sense if that was what was happening (i.e. the wedding would seem more like “me” and I wouldn’t just be blindly following fiance into it…). Ex has grown a lot in the years since we were together, seeking therapy, etc. and has turned into a really nice and thoughtful man as far as I can tell. And he’s still very attractive.
I recently ran into ex (which used to be awkward, although friendly), and whatever was unspoken between us, the feelings that were there, were VERY there. I felt like crying. He then texted me saying that was hard, he misses me but is glad to see I’m happy. Since then, ex told me that he feels as though there is an alternate life, very real and tangible, that he could be lucky enough to live had he made better decisions years ago. I think so, too. I think about it all the time. Carefully, I told ex that while I understand what he means, he did break my heart, and I am happy with fiance (which is all true). But I can’t help but feel that I would be happier with ex.
I feel terrible and so guilty even writing this because fiance is so good and I do love him and would be proud and lucky to be his wife. He is, by all accounts, a “better” man than ex. It’s just that it feels like I’m supposed to be with ex instead. I don’t know what to do. Ex will obviously never pursue anything further with me than these few comments and some strange eye contact when we bump into each other, and he seems respectful of my engagement. But what about ME? Am I a horrible person? What should I do? Please help.
Susan
Why do you feel like the wedding is not like you?
If you say you love your fiance, then why do you feel like you’re blindly following your fiance into it? Generally, women are way more into the wedding, getting married, etc. than their men (not that this should be the case, but it often is.) Who is the one really pushing the wedding agenda along? Your fiance?
Is the unspoken problem that you’re just not that in love with your fiance?
You’re not a horrible person, but I do think it’d be good for you, and for your fiance, to sort these things out.
cc
Please call off the wedding. You need time to explore these feelings. I don’t know if you should be with the ex, he did break your heart, but I think you need time to be alone and sort these feelings out, without beating yourself up about it because you are engaged. He could be representing something else to you, but either way I think it means you should not be getting married.
job hunting
You are not a horrible person. You are confronted with a choice. Do you want to marry your fiance, or not? If yes, you have to remove your ex from your life. No more texting or talking to him. His presence in your life is not the foundation of a strong marriage.
If that idea makes you miserable, you need to strongly consider whether you want to marry your fiance, and whether your fiance would want to marry you knowing you are not over your ex.
I think deep down, you know whether or not this marriage is right for you. Listen to yourself. Also, not to say this is or is not relevant to you but calling off an engagement is way easier than getting a divorce or being married to the wrong person.
KK
Oh, wow. I’m really sorry you’re going through this, because it seems like an incredibly confusing and difficult situation. A have few questions re timeline: When is the wedding? How long have you been engaged? How long ago did the first relationship end?
Is there any chance that these feelings are the byproduct of some doubts about the engagement/wedding in general? Your fiance may very well be a wonderful man, but if you aren’t confident that you want to marry him, then you need to release him. He doesn’t deserve someone who isn’t in 100%. And I think you need to sort out your relationship with this man completely separately from whatever you may be feeling about the ex. It may be just that you’re having a moment of grass-is-always-greener doubt due to the wedding anxiety (typical cold feet type stuff), or it may be that you have serious reservations about this relationship but can’t think of any concrete reason to end it (i.e. nothing wrong with fiance) so you are manufacturing a reason by romanticizing the ex.
Whatever you do, do not rush forward with this wedding until you have resolved these feelings one way or another.
Again, I really sympathize because I would not want to be in your shoes right now.
GovtMom
Oof. Good questions from Susan. Adding to them, how is fiance a “better man”?
I don’t know you so please take this with a grain of salt. It sounds like you have some very serious issues to work through — do you want to marry fiance? Do you want to pursue ex? Are you sufficiently at peace with ex to build a life with fiance? What is going on with your wedding planning to make you feel like you’re blindly following along? Please consider slowing down the wedding train to work through all of this. Maybe some very open conversations with your fiance. Maybe some work with a therapist. Maybe some deep navel-gazing on what you want and what’s going on.
The only way you will be a horrible person is if you don’t face these issues and continue blindly following without thinking through what is going on. If you don’t want to marry your fiance, that does not make you a bad person. If you’re not ready to marry right now and want some time, that does not make you a bad person. But you do owe your fiance (and yourself!) honestly about your feelings.
anon
Honey, snap out of it.
Your fiance – reality.
Your ex – fantasy.
Make sure you know the difference between the two, and for god’s sake, don’t marry your poor, sweet finance and ruin his life until you do know the difference!
Anon.
This.
I am truly sorry, as I know this sounds harsh, but: taking everything you’re saying as true – you need to figure your mess out ASAP and either (1) cut ties with the ex and be in it 100% with the fiance or (2) let the poor fiance go so he can find someone who truly appreciates him and isn’t fantasizing about marrying someone else.
Long and so confused
Harsh, yes, but true. Which is exactly why I feel like a horrible, sleazy person. I know this doesn’t make my thoughts any better or fair to fiance, but I didn’t seek ex out at all, we just bumped into each other on the street (which has happened a handful of times since we broke up). I honestly wish I hadn’t bumped into him at all and then any thoughts or doubts I might be having about the wedding I could truly just attribute to myself/my current relationship.
Anon.
Did the fantasizing start before or after you bumped into him? If after, you could be projecting your fears onto him and seeing the ex as sort of convenient “escape.” If before, you may have a bigger issue, because it sounds like you may have always had doubts about marrying your fiance, but he was “good on paper” and “as good as you can get” so you went ahead with it (my SIL did this, and ended up breaking off her engagement).
This may be TMI, but before I met my husband, I would lay awake at night and fantasize about my “perfect” husband, who was ambitious! and sexy! and fun! and heck, why not, rich! After I met my now-husband (who is some of those things, haha), I stopped fantasizing about “someone” and started fantasizing about marrying him.
I suggest talking with a therapist or best friend who will take everything you say to the vault.
Nonny
I’ve actually been in a very similar position, but hesitated to comment because I don’t want to assume your situation is based on the same underlying issues as mine was. But perhaps my experience can help you.
In my case, I called off the wedding because I realized there was stuff going on that wasn’t right. I wasn’t really into planning my wedding – is that what you mean when you say the wedding doesn’t feel like you? There was nothing empirically “wrong” with my fiance, but the wedding didn’t feel “right”, and yes, all my dreams were about marrying ex, not then-fiance. With the benefit of hindsight, I think I did the right thing, but my situation with my own ex was probably only a symptom that something was wrong with my plan to marry then-fiance, rather than the ultimate *reason* for calling off the wedding. I now believe the real reasons were more to do with issues surrounding my relationship with my then-fiance, which I probably would have just ignored if the situation with my ex hadn’t given me a reason to re-evaluate.
It sounds to me that you are over-rationalizing your plans to marry your fiance. I did a lot of that myself. But what does your gut say? Gut instinct is usually right, so listen to it. Only you know whether you are just having cold feet or whether there is something else going on. Cancelling or postponing a wedding is scary and not fun, but if it is the right thing to do, you have to do it. It is better than the alternative.
And if one of your justifications for going through with the wedding is that you always planned to be married by x age (that was one of my reasons) and as a Type A personality you can’t stand to fall behind your plan, well, I am here to tell you that plans are made to be changed and things *will* turn out the way they should. They have for me, and surprisingly, it wasn’t with ex (though I did try that….another story for another day).
This is all really hard stuff. Take care of yourself while you are working it out. I found it really helpful to go on long walks – round about 20 minutes into the walk things got much clearer and it was great thinking time.
Good luck.
Long and so confused
Thank you for sharing your experience, Nonny. How did you begin to sort it all out in your head?! Did you talk with anyone about it before addressing things with your then-fiance? So scary and hard.
Nonny
I spent a *lot* of time thinking about it. I didn’t talk to friends or family about it because, frankly, I was kind of embarrassed. But in hindsight, I know that my feelings about my wedding were totally obvious to my parents, who don’t like to interfere and who were ready to support me in whatever I thought was right for me. I thought the world would end if I postponed my wedding, but if you need to do it, the people who love you will support your decision.
I did go to a couple of sessions with a therapist, who provided a non-judgmental ear. It really helped.
When I was ready to “go public” and cancel the wedding, I was careful to keep my reasons brief and focussed on my relationship with fiance – regardless of how I felt, bringing ex into it wasn’t going to help anything. And I would encourage you not to contact ex or talk to ex about any of this – it will cloud your judgement, which you don’t need.
Long and so confused
Thank you again nonny. Your advice is really helpful. You’re right that I should be resolving this completely separately from ex. I think I owe that to fiance and to myself!
It’s crazy to think about the ACT of calling off the wedding. I’ll explore this at length with myself and likely my therapist as well. Will also check out the blog anon recommends below.
Long and so confused
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful responses. This is such a hard (and, honestly, unexpected) place to be in.
To answer a few questions – fiance and I are getting married this fall (got engaged last summer). The “following along” thing and feeling as though the wedding isn’t me – well, fiance is about a decade older than I am and is therefore very excited and ready to get married. I thought I was excited and ready but perhaps not. Fiance is, in the interest of honesty, something of a “vip” and generally considered a huge, amazing catch. Distastefully, he reminded me of this recently in a “I could have any girl- and you know I’m not kidding- and I chose you” kind of way. I’m not always that comfortable in his world and I have been working on that and he is generally supportive. But a lot of me craves the feeling of home and comfort I have when just seeing or talking to ex.
Following the engagement, I had a very, very busy time at work and a death in my family, and fiance was very unsupportive during this time (which really surprised me). We talked at length about this and resolved it and things have been back on track for a couple of months, until the ex run-ins and feelings happened. Perhaps I’m just feeling a lingering disappointment in fiance after our really tough time/big fight and transferring it all onto ex. I don’t know though, I thought I had addressed those issues with fiance. Uuuugghhh. I know you’re all right in saying I need to do some deep soul-searching, thinking, exploring, and talking with fiance to make sure I’m “sure” and treating him fairly.
Having just typed all this out and read your responses, I’m realizing that this is a much bigger issue than fiance vs. ex. It’s just a terrifying, nauseating one to confront and I don’t even know where to start.
Thank you all so much for your advice and thoughts. It really is helpful. I can’t imagine voicing this out loud to a friend or my mother yet. Perhaps I do need to give my old therapist a call…
Anon
When I was in my late 20s, I married a great guy, even though I wasn’t excited about wedding planning, the wedding didn’t feel like me, and the whole thing felt like this out-of-body experience where I was planning a wedding for someone else. I kept telling myself it was just cold feet. We got divorced 18 months later, and I wish I had trusted my instincts and listened to what my feelings were really saying.
There is so much pressure not to call off an engagement. I even heard Dr. Phil say once that more people get divorced in the first year than call off an engagement. The social pressure is incredible. And it sounds like you think you should marry this guy because he’s nice and decent, but it also sounds like you don’t want to get married right now. It’s not clear if you want to break up with him (after his comments about how he could have any girl, I’d be tempted to blast Beyonce’s Irreplaceable and stomp right out), but it seems pretty clear that you’re having serious doubts that go beyond cold feet. And also, if ending the engagement sounds daunting, imagine what it feels like to call your mom and tell her you’re getting divorced. Yikes.
And also, fast forward five years, and I’m engaged to someone else now (whom I did not know at the time) and we’re getting married in a few months. I AM SO EXCITED. I’m jumping out of my skin with how much I want to marry this guy. I wish we could skip work and go get married today. Is he annoying at times? Of course. Do I want to wake up next to him every day forever? Yes!! The feeling of marrying someone you want to marry is so, so different than that gut-kicking, hestitant, wtf-am-i-doing feeling of marrying someone that you’re not sure about.
Anon
And also, my red flags went up about how he’s a decade older than you, a VIP, and that you feel more comfortable and at home with your ex. It sounds like you feel uncomfortable around your fiance at times. That’s not what I would want for a life partner — I want someone who feels like home.
Long and so confused
Thank you Anon. Just the words “someone who feels like home” makes me feel like crying – I think that’s why I got so upset after running into ex recently. Fiance feels like home when we’re at home together, the two of us and the dog, but not necessarily in real life. And I know that we can’t just hide in our house forever.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I can’t imagine how hard it must have been to go through a divorce. I certainly don’t want to face that or have it feel inevitable, and I want to be excited about our wedding.
It’s so hard because I DID want to marry fiance when I said yes. He’s literally better than a husband I could have dreamed up….on paper. And our relationship really had no issues at all until after the engagement. Is that weird?! It was like we got engaged and he stopped trying/putting anything into the relationship. We’ve discussed this and all our issues, like I said above, and I thought I had resolved it all and was re-invigorated about him and the wedding. Seeing ex made me feel otherwise though and made me feel so desperate for ex’s comfort – I feel so guilty writing/thinking this. I just can’t tell what’s to do with fiance and what’s to do with ex and what’s to do with me.
Also – this may raise your red flag more, Anon – but fiance does not like my mom. She’s by all accounts a great mother and person (ex, friends, every other ex or person she’s ever met loves her). He thinks she’s “not on my side” and this has also been a source of conflict amongst all of us. My mom likes fiance, I think because he’s great on paper, but had much more of a friendship with ex.
I hate this! Can’t focus on anything else and feel very selfish and bad about it all. Thank you all so much for your helpful comments though, I’m glad I posted in the end.
Anon
It sounds to me like there’s a feeling you get with your ex (comfort, home, trust, security) that you don’t get with your fiance. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you would be happier with your ex, but it does mean that there is something very important to you in relationships that you are not getting in your current relationship.
It also sounds to me like you’re not talking about this with anyone, except maybe your therapist? That’s exactly what I was doing before I got married — not confiding in anyone about my fears and doubts. Looking back, I really wish I’d just split a bottle of wine with a good friend and told her everything. Your friends know you and know this guy, and even if they really like him, they like you more and want you to be happy. And they’ll be proud of you if you call off your engagement, or they’ll be happy for you if you work it all out and decide to stay with him.
I would also not be too concerned with the fact that everyone likes him or he’s good/perfect on paper. You should go out with someone that you’re proud of, yes, and who other people also like to spend time with, but lots and lots of people will meet these criteria.
And you’re totally right that it’s not cool that he doesn’t like your mom. I don’t know this guy, but I’m getting a bit of a controlling vibe coming from him…
Susan
His telling you that he’s a great catch and could have anyone is really off-putting and sounds like a veiled threat. Perhaps he’s insecure on some level.
Also, his attitude sounds really arrogant– it’s very typical of the VIP/go-getter type to have this idea that once he’s reached a goal, then that goal is something to put behind him, and file away in the trophy cabinet and onto something else. That he was all charming because he wanted to woo you and get you to say ‘yes’ is part and parcel of this personality type. Having said, ‘yes,’ he thinks he’s reached that goal and is already onto some other goal and wow, is that off-putting.
I think the ex is the red-herring; and the more you say about this fiance, the more I wonder if he’s just not right for you and your gut is telling you that.
You are not sleazy; you’re about to make a very big life decision, and better that you decide what you truly want now and damn the torpedoes (cancellations on flowers, stationery and other non-essential wedding paraphernalia) than have a divorce later on. Your happiness and your fiance’s happiness in the long-term trumps 100000x over anybody’s disappointment about a very expensive party (which is what most weddings are) that might get called off.
Herbie
I’m so, so sorry you’re going through this.
This is not about fiance v. ex. This is about fiance and you. His failure to support you during a tough time and his thinly veiled threat about how he could have anyone he wants are huge red flags. I’ll go out on a limb and say you’ve overlooked a bunch of other red flags because of how paper-good he seems.
Listen to your gut. Reread what you’ve told us already. I read what you’ve written and think, “She knows this isn’t right and is looking for permission to end it.” You’ve got permission. Take care of your star player (that’s you!), follow your gut, and you’ll get through it.
Keep us posted. Hugs.
Seattleite
Please also read “Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay.” It’s focused on whether to divorce, but the questions posed by the author are relevent to any committed relationship. It helped me clarify and put into words what sorts of intangibles I needed in a relationship, and understand why some ‘little’ things that I felt silly about needing weren’t so little after all.
anon
Check out the blog A Practical Wedding – there are a series of posts from women who called off their engagements for various reasons, and posts from women who thought about calling it off but worked it out with their fiances. You are dealing with some very serious questions and it may help to hear stories from women who have been where you are now.
anon
It makes me sad that you don’t feel “at home” with your fiance! Isn’t that the main quality a future spouse should provide? Please give yourself time. Talk to a therapist about what you are truly feeling. Let yourself totally open up to someone about this. Consider calling off the wedding for a while. Don’t let the pressure keep building until you feel like you have no choice but to marry him.
Long and so confused
Thank you anon. I really appreciate you being so kind.
May
Why is each post getting stuck in moderation today?
J.CrewJD
I am, inadvertently, wearing basically this exact outfit today. I have never been to this website before but a friend pointed me here after seeing my outfit of the day blog post! My blazer is an older J.Crew one but it is a very similar style. I love the idea of this outfit and I have gotten many compliments today!
IRL pics of this outfit on my blog
BTW, for reference, I am an attorney working in a pretty casual office. This outfit would not work for every office, that’s for sure.
Julie will now be known as Jules
I just had to check out your blog — love the look and the red shoes. I saw your note about missing the J Crew Juliets. When there’s something I love that’s discontinued, I look on e-bay, so I went there and searched for J Crew Juliet (procrastinating at work, on your behalf) — and found 2 new pairs listed in size 11! (Okay, one says the price is $1129, but that’s got to be a typo.) One is pink, the other is leopard print, very cute. Happy hunting.
Changing my handle, which was boring and which someone else used yesterday. :)
J.CrewJD
Oooh, thanks! I am watching the leopard ones… I didn’t see the other pair. I love finding older items on eBay!
Julie will now be known as Jules
The others are pink suede and patent!
D
Threadjack question…
How do you deal with a female co-worker who is hostile to all other females in a work environment? This woman withholds information, spreads misinformation and gossips about people’s personal issues. She is also HR. I try to minimize my contact with her, but I can’t completely. Other than only communicating in email to leave a paper trail, what can I do?
I think she used to be my colleague
I left the firm.
anon
That literally happened to me with a prior HR woman. Among other generally nasty behaviors, she was sharing salary information about others with her friends at the company. Including my salary. I called her boss, and I could tell from his reaction that it wasn’t the first call he’d had. She’s no longer here.
DA
When I am president of the world, all HR (especially women in HR) will be thrashed severely. Just because. If they complain, they will be taunted another time
Anon
Similar look, in a sweater material, for much cheaper: http://www.loft.com/loft/product/LOFT-Apparel/LOFT-Jackets/Tipped-Sweater-Jacket/271783?colorExplode=true&skuId=10564189&catid=catl000018&productPageType=fullPriceProducts&defaultColor=6600
I’ve been looking for a sweater jacket for a while. I wonder if this would be okay for work, over a sheath dress? Or does the wide border make it too casual?
Julie will now be known as Jules
I think it’s very cute and totally office-appropriate for all but the most formal offices (but not for, say, court). The only thing that might make it problematic is the short length, but it depends on what you wear it with; a sheath dress, a pencil skirt or pants that are high-waisted enough that there’s no gap woud be fine. (And I’m not seeing a wide border — I think in the photo of the gray version the model is wearing the jacket over a long top and, since you’re only seeing it from behind, it looks like a border on the jacket.)
Serena
I bought this jacket from BR, but promptly returned it. It is very well made with nice materials and attention to detail. However, when I wore it and looked in the mirror, it kept reminding me of a service jacket. Then I realized why:
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/img/galleries/wimbledonralph/2uniformsST_350x270.jpg
I don’t need or want to look like a Wimbledon line judge.