Wednesday’s TPS Report: ‘Femme’ Pencil Skirt

200 Comments

1. Threadjack for my gov employee corporettes:

   I am a current biglaw attorney who is miserable at my job. I have an interview with the federal government for an attorney position in the near future that is a term appointment (2 years). I have not been asked to leave my job, have great reviews, etc. My questions are (1) how many people get called in to interviews for vacancy’s they applied for (i.e., what are my odds/chances)?; (2) Is it worth leaving a job for a term appointment (i.e., can this turn into something full time, give me a leg into the fed gov and out of biglaw) or should I not waste my time as I’ll be leaving a good gig for a temp position?; and (3) what is the format of these interviews like?

   Thanks in advance!!!!

   1. I’ll tell you this much, I left my firm job for a two year gig (that I just started) and I’m positive it was the right move for me. Not sure what it’ll lead to but there’s no such thing as a sure thing–except for the “sure thing” that you’re miserable currently.

   2. I’m an AUSA and have been for the last 18 months or so. In my experience, most vacancies for DOJ are extremely competitive (even more so in the current economic environment). How competitive your position is depends on the particulars of the job, location, level of experience, etc., so it’s hard to say without knowing more about it. 2) My current position is a two-year term appointment as well, and pretty much everyone here who wants to can get it renewed for at least another two years (or apply to be a permanent employee – I am not sure how much more difficult that is to get, but at least at my office, it requires an interview, an application, etc. The renewal is automatic if you just request it). So it’s not really a “temporary” position in the way you are describing it, although again, I believe that varies from office to office (my other AUSA friends confirm that most of them were able to get renewed as well). 3) Format varies widely – my position required 4-5 interviews with the supervisors in the office, and then a brief interview with the US attorney. The questions were not based on case law or anything like that, but rather questions about my experience, why i wanted to be a prosecutor, etc. I believe my friend who was an AUSA in SDNY got asked some case hypos, but again, nothing about specific case law. Our office does only one round of interviews, but i think most offices do two or even three rounds of interviews.

      Good luck! if you have more details about the position, I’d be happy to answer your questions with more clarity if possible.

      1. Thanks! It’s not an AUSA position but rather for a staff attorney position that is a 2 year term appointment at a well known fed agency (Due to the fact they may be reading this blog I think it’s best I do not reveal the agency). All I know is I’ve been called in for an interview and to bring a writing sample and references. My fear was taking a temp gig, quitting my job, moving cities, and before I know it I’m out of work. It’s a significant pay cut from biglaw salaries so I didn’t want to leave if it just ends up being a dead end. However, the information you gave about the term appointments sounds hopeful.

      2. I wanted to leave for a federal clerkship with an appellate judge, but my firm said I would not be able to take the salary hit. It was only 1 year and I wound up leaving anyway. After the clerkship, I got another job with another litigation firm, and the $100K or so that I lost was more than made up in the experience I got. Now I would never counsel anyone to stay if they had a good opportunity with a federal judge like I did. I also learned alot more than I would have pushing paper as a 3rd year associate at a big firm.

         1. Wow, what a short-sighted comment for them to make. Also very presumptuous of them to assume your financial situation. Federal appellate clerkship == pretty darned prestigious, so it’s pretty odd for the firm to discourage it. If anything, in my former BigLaw firm, it was encouraged and people who left had a soft offer to come back.

   3. Unfortunately — so much depends on the specific agency. My agency calls in usually 2-3 people per position, just because people don’t want to be bothered with more interviews than that. Same for format of the interviews. I’ve done one-on-one. I’ve done 2-3 interviewers at once. All depends on the position, people’s schedules, etc. Can you at least give a hint as to the nature of the agency — is it a regulatory one? Big/small? In DC or not? Some of that might help in responding.

      As for whether it’s worth leaving for a 2-year gig: IMO, you’re miserable now. It’s not like you’re thinking about leaving a job you love, or at least like, for something short-term.

   4. I work for the feds. The two year term appointment is really like a probationary period and will turn permanent. Your other questions just depend on the individual who is hiring. For example, for our last vacancy we received 200 applications and called in 10 people for interviews for one position. My supervisor could have just had 5 interviews if he wanted. The format is also up to the individual hiring. Some like to meet one on one, others like to have another supervisor in the interview. I know my former boss liked to have all the applicants who came in for an interview meet with the rest of the attorneys, which made for a marathon day.

      1. Thanks everyone. It’s for a judicial position in DC. I was told I’m interviewing with 2-3 people at most an hour a peice. This information was sooo very helpful. Fingers crossed and wish me luck!!!!!!!!!!

2. birth control + traveling question–what do you do when traveling between time zones that throws off your regular time for taking birth control? I’m traveling to Britain on Friday for a week, and I normally take my birth control pill (Yaz generic) at 11 pm, which is 4 am British time. I don’t want to wake up in the middle of the night to take medicine. Can I start taking it an hour early each day to back up the time to some slightly more reasonable hour? Should I just take it 5 hours early the first day I get there and keep taking it at 11 pm British time while I’m there? (I don’t currently have a doctor to call to ask their opinion, annoyingly, due to a recent move and the fact my insurance won’t cover “phone consultations” with my old doctor)

   1. I took Yasmin, which I think is a similar formulation to Yaz. When traveling to a different time zone, I never re-jiggered my schedule. If I normally took my pill around 8 am at home, I took it around 8 am in London, Paris, Prague, whatever. I didn’t worry about being a few hours early or late. But then, I never had a problem with any of the types of pill I’ve taken.

      You might want to see if the Yaz website has a FAQs section or live chat or something.

   2. You should be fine so long as you take your pill within 3 hours of your normal time. So you can start taking it a couple of hours early before you leave and then you will be fine taking it at 11 pm when you’re there.

   3. Why I asked my doctor about this, she laughed at me. She said to just take it when I want to take it and as long as I took it less than 24 hrs before, I should be “more than” covered.

   4. Thanks, all!

3. I love this skirt, but the jacket is a bit “much” and I only wear suits. Too bad!

   Sorry for another threadjack right away, but:
   For those who have given birth – how did you go about choosing your provider? Have any of you used a birthing center?
   TIA!

   1. I moved during my first pregnancy and needed to find someone quickly, so i asked around and it seemed i got the same recs from everyone, so thats who i went with (If you happen to be in Chicago, let me know and ill give you the rec). It was the best decision i made. I love my doctor and all of the other doctors in the group. A different doctor wound up delivering each baby and they were both just fantastic.

      1. Having the same experience of moving around during hoped for, but surprising, pregnancy. I’m moving from the west coast to Chicago this fall – could you give me the name of your provider? I’ll be back in my home city for the birth – fingers crossed that I make it that far – but will need to see someone in Chicago for several key appointments this fall.

         Related threadjack, that I’ve been thinking about for a few days: Have any of you Corporettes had a successful pregnancy over 40?? All I can find/ hear is horror stories. I’m almost assuming I’ll miscarry (only 6 weeks at this point) b/c the odds seems so miserable. It would be great to hear some stories of positive outcomes… even of a friend of a friend.

         I’d also love to hear advice/ experience with working out during pregnancy. The nurse at my doctor’s office was horrified when I suggested hiking – and that’s the tamest of my usual sports. I’m living away from my home town for the summer, so can’t just pop into the drs. office, and am getting a bit scared by what I read online.

         Finally, if there’s a better place for these questions, please advise, and I’ll take them there. I know some have expressed concern that this site not become for “mothers who also happen to have careers.” As a long time single, professional women, I appreciate the sentiment. At the same time, I really value the Corporette hive mind, and I’d love to hear from some intelligent, professional women.

         1. I have no idea about your other questions, but my mother was 42 and an very busy banker when she had me, and everything turned out fine. I wish you the best of health.

      2. Having the same experience of moving around – from the west coast to Chicago this fall – could you share the name of your provider? I will deliver back home – fingers crossed that I get that far! – but need to see someone in Chicago for a few key appointments.

         Related threadjack: Have any of you Corporettes had a successful, to-term pregnancy over 40? I’m 43, 6 weeks pregnant for the first time, and scared by everything I read/ hear. The odds seem so dismal. I’m almost assuming that I’ll miscarry. Are there any positive stories out there???

         Also, did you carry on your normal workout routine while pregnant? The nurse at my dr’s office was alarmed when I suggested hiking, which is the tamest of my usual activities. What was your experience with exercise?

         1. Congratulations!!! Are you only seeing an Ob, or have you been classified high-risk and gotten a perinatologist? I was high-risk on my last pregnancy at 34 and had SUCH a better relationship with the perinatologist than my regular Ob. He had more time to spend with me and was much better at addressing miscarriage concerns (part of why I was high-risk in the first place) than my regular Ob, who basically said come in at 8 weeks, deal with it until then.

            I’ve seen several friends carry healthy children to term over 40, so there are good stories out there. If you want to look at odds, you’ve already surmounted a huge odd by getting pregnant.

            As for exercise, I would go with what your body feels OK with and what won’t cause you stress. If you’re scared of miscarrying, then don’t do anything that might make you nervous. I see nothing wrong with hiking — but that’s me. Maybe not overnight or an extended trip where you’ve got no outs if you start feeling bad … but a simple day trip, why not.

            1. Thanks! You’re among the few to know at this point :-)

               Here’s the funny thing: I spoke to my regular GP yesterday, she freaked out and immediately referred me to a perinatologist. I called their office, and they said that simply being OLD is not a risk factor, unless I have other risk factors (which as far as I know, I don’t). They won’t accept me into their practice until they determine whether I truly am high risk, as my GP thinks (I saw her just 6 weeks ago, so she is very current on the status of my general health).

               Meanwhile, I’m out of town for six weeks and will have to make a special trip back for my first appt. at 9 weeks, once the GP and the perinatologist sort out whether or not I’m high risk. I’m actually wondering if I should see someone in my current town sooner. GP said no, return to the Big City to see a pro. So I wonder, and wait, and hike….

            2. Ditto. If you are an active person, just keep up your routine and listen to your body – it will tell you when to back off.

               My aunt had successful pregnancies at 40 and 42-43. Hope everything goes well for you!

         2. My mom had my brother (which I think was a surprise) at 43. She had no complications and he was totally healthy. He is now 21, top of his class at a top college and so effortlessly smart.

         3. I am not high risk, but I am continuing with my normal workout routine with doc’s approval, though I stopped going to squats/lunges/jumping class because it started to hurt (apparently, your muscles and joints loosen during pregnancy, so you just have to stop when your body tells you to).

         4. My best friend got pregnant – unplanned – with her third 2 years ago at 43. Uneventful pregnancy, perfect and beautiful little girl. Hugs and best of luck to you. And congratulations!

   2. My insurance (United Health) had a list of providers in my area and you can rank them by patient satisfaction, etc. I used that and I’ve been very happy with my provider. Also, if you have a general practitioner, I would ask he/she if he/she had any recommendations.

      1. *him/her. Sigh. Pregnancy brain.

   3. At first I was going to disagree and say the jacket is adorable, but then I looked at the back of the jacket.

      Sigh.

      1. This collection is business-in-the-front-party-in-the-back. The ‘Femme’ cap sleeved dress is also cute in the front, albeit a bit short. The back of that one has the most cray-cray exposed zipper!

         1. OMG.

            http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/rebecca-taylor-femme-cap-sleeve-dress/3171965

            But I love the description of a zipper as “cray-cray”.

      2. Horrible. I liked the detail on the skirt but the detail on the skirt and jacket combined is truly awful.

   4. I am high-risk, so I had a high-risk OB both times. The first time I delivered in a different state (baby was early) so I used the doctors in the hospital we happened to go to (!). The second time, one of the doctors in my doctor’s practice did the delivery, helped by a resident.

      My hospital didn’t have a birthing center, but I came in (both times) too late for interventions like epidurals, etc., so I had drug-free labor both times. IMO, and from my friends’ experiences too, it is easier to avoid interventions if you labor at home for a long time before going in. (Now, watch me have the next baby in the car on the way to the hospital!)

   5. I found my midwife by asking my friends and family for recommendations, then I met with her and loved her!

      I had my third baby at a birthing center within a hospital and it was a wonderful experience. I had a waterbirth, with a midwife. My husband was allowed to “catch” the baby and bring her up to my chest. We stayed in the same room the entire time, with baby. The birthing center did not have a nursery. There was also a king size bed so we could all rest and bond together. Because this was a natural birthing center, there was no options for drugs (which I liked), but if something went wrong or you decided you did want drugs, you could quickly move up to a couple of floors. This hopital also had a highly ranked NICU, just in case. So I appreciated those things, but also appreciated being supported in a natural birth.

      With my son (second child), he was born in a regular hospital with a midwife. We got to the hospital too late for drugs. My first was an induction due to pre-eclampsia, so required an OB at the hospital. Also had an epidural with her. So overall, the birthing center and waterbirth was by far the best experience for me.

   6. I chose my provider by asking for recommendations from friends and family members. I met with 2 doctors and a midwife before deciding on the one I wanted to go with. I knew the hospital I wanted to deliver at and found an OB whose practice always had one doctor on call at that hospital…ultimately, my OB was out of town when I went into labor, so another doctor from the practice delivered my baby. Since that happened to me, I would recommend meeting with more than one doctor in the office you choose.

      I had a totally healthy, uneventful pregnancy and exercised regularly the entire time, but I experienced a dangerous complication during delivery relating to my blood pressure unexpectedly spiking. I ended up with an emergency c-section and am so glad that I chose to give birth at a hospital where all of my complications could be dealt with quickly.

4. I do the same thing with all meds that are timed. Just switch to the new time zone and don’t worry about small/less than 24 HR gaps or overlaps.

5. Not to be a total prude, but does this skirt seem a wee bit too sexy in the back (for work) to anyone but me? Maybe it’s just a sizing issue?

   1. In many cases garments will be clipped for a snug fit, so it’s impossible to tell how a skirt/dress/top will fit until you actually try it on. My guess is that it is probably not nearly as sexy as this picture makes it out to be.

   2. Aims I agree ..it’s to butt cupping and a little mermaid-esque to me in the back. It reminds me of the dresses with the longer back hem.

      1. Yes! Totally Ariel or bizarre cropped wedding dress.

      2. I do not look good in fitted tops like this. It is probably because I am a little too small up top relative to the bottom, so they always look baggy unless I get my father’s tailor to fit it properly for me.

6. Threadjack: Nude hose too eighties? I have been following the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge’s trip to Canada, mostly to see what she is wearing. The Daily Mail gushes over what she wears, except for one thing. It always questions why she is wearing nude hose. The article yesterday said they were to 80s and maybe that fashion should stay dead. So what should she wear instead? She can’t go bare-legged. There is Royal Protocol after all.

   Is wearing nude for you hose really such a fashion faux pas? I thought that was what you were supposed to wear.

   1. I don’t think it’s a faux pas if you are either on a job interview or are a princess. Also a public official, I think. I wouldn’t want my president or senator going bare-legged. If men can’t wear shorts, women can suck it up and wear stockings.

      1. I like your two situations for wearing nude hose. Are you in a job interview? Are you a princess? If the answer to both those questions is no, then please remove your pantyhose.

         Kate Middleton (what’s her new law name? Kate Married to the Prince of Wales? Kate Cambridge? Kate Not a Princess?) probably hates wearing hose as much as the Daily Mail hates seeing it. Like her sleeved wedding dress, she has no choice.

         1. I realize that my last sentence reads like Kate and her sleeved wedding dresses don’t have choices. I trust that everyone understood what I meant.

            1. Yes, and thanks for the laugh!

         2. Sadly, I think her “official” name is Her Royal Highness Princess William of Wales. Sucks that she can’t have her own name because she wasn’t born royalty.

            1. So how come Diana Spencer was princess Diana, not princess Charles of wales?

            2. An: Diana was given the title Princess but Kate wasn’t.

               I think William’s last name is Wales (I remember seeing him in some sort of sports jersey where your last name is printed on the back, and his said “Wales”). Although I guess if you’re prince you don’t really need a last name. I wonder if his last name will change to “England” once he becomes King?

            3. I am not 100% sure, but I think that the difference between Diana and Kate was also the fact that prior to the marriage she was already Lady Diana Spencer while Kate was just a “commoner.” But I could be wrong.

            4. I think she is not yet Princess Catherine because William is not yet the crown prince, not because she is not part of the peerage. Charles was already crown prince when he married Diana.

            5. Isn’t the Royal Family’s surname “Windsor”?

            6. I think it has more to do with the fact that Charles was the Prince of Wales when they married. William is not the Prince of Wales, so Catherine cannot be the Princess of Wales. When they married, Diana became HRH Princess Charles of Wales & Princess of Wales in her own right.

               I realize that it is sad that I know this :-P

            7. She’s officially “Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge,” since the Queen gave William the title of Duke of Cambridge upon his wedding. Before that, William was just “Prince William” and didn’t have a landed title—like his father, the Prince of Wales. So, if William wasn’t also the Duke of Cambridge (his official title is “H.R.H. Prince William, the Duke of Cambridge”), then Kate would be “Princess William of Wales”—kind of like Prince Michael of Kent and his wife Princess Michael of Kent (I guess his title isn’t officially “Prince of Kent” and he’s just “Prince Michael” but they say “of Kent” to clarify? I’m unclear about his title).

               That’s why Diana was “Diana, the Princess of Wales” (and not “Princess Diana” as she was called)—because Charles was Prince of Wales in addition to being just “Prince Charles”. Charles is also the Duke of Cornwall, which is why Camilla is the Duchess of Cornwall (she actually is also the Princess of Wales, but doesn’t go by that publicly because the public won’t have it).

               Only direct descendants of the Queen can be called “Prince/Princess Firstname”, like Princes William and Harry, and Princesses Eugene and Beatrice.

            8. Direct descendants of the Queen have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor, but common practice seems to be to use their landed title place (like Wales) as a last name. The rest of the royal family’s last name is just Windsor.

               Catherine, like Camilla, will never officially be “Princess Catherine” Rather, she will one day be the Princess of Wales.

            9. This is literally one of my favorite topics – titles and styles of the British Royal Family. The last two anons have it right – the next time the name Catherine should be correctly included will be when William is King and she becomes Queen Catherine. Until then she is HRH the Duchess of Cambridge (calling her “Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge” implies she is divorced), then when/if William is made Prince of Wales, she will become the Princess of Wales, but never Princess Catherine, as only princesses born to that position can use Princess before their names. Diana was always incorrectly called “Princess Diana” and often corrected people.

               By the way, on Prince Michael of Kent – his father was the Duke of Kent, and Prince Michael has no other title, so as the grandson of a King he is “Prince Michael” and “of Kent” as his father’s son. Similar to how Charles is the Prince of Wales, so Harry (and like William before his new title) is Prince Harry of Wales. Wales becomes like a last name.

            10. I live in a Kingdom (oldest monarchy still in active reign after 12 centuries), that was one very instructive discussion about titles. I couldn’t have imagined there are such complexities in getting a princess title.

      2. I agree. They’re not the “coolest” things in the world, but if your goal is to look at the top of your game, professionally speaking (i.e., public officials, job interviews, not really sure if princesses are “professionals”, but I guess something similar), nude hose are appropriate. I’d say that they’re only dated if you’re wearing them and 1) they are obvious- as in too thick and don’t match your leg color, 2) you are wearing them with open-toed shoes, or 3) you are wearing them with an outfit that’s not professional, but breezy and does’t “go”, such as with a sundress to an outdoor, summer event.

         1. I feel like I don’t look like I am at the top of my game because I am unbelievably uncomfortable when I wear them. All I can do is think about when I can take them off. That said, I am in Florida and the weather is not conducive for hose 10 months out of the year. The other two months, I wear tights. Honestly if I see a woman outside today wearing hose, I wonder what on earth is wrong with her.

            1. How are hose less comfortable than tights?

            2. No snagging and they breathe better.

         2. For me, hose make me feel all twitchy…not sure how else to describe it. Tights don’t feel that way to me. I HATE hose.

            1. Tights are usually cotton, with a smidge of spandex so they’re not as unnatural (?) as hose. That’s the best I can explain anyway. I can wear tights in the winter, so that’s the only time I wear skirts or dresses; otherwise I stick to pants

      3. I feel like this is a little unfair. Skirt suits are supposed to be more appropriate business wear than pant suits, for some reason that’s totally incomprehensible to me. To criticize women for not covering their legs like men do, after declaring the clothing that would cover their legs to exactly the same extent as men too informal, seems very hypocritical.

         1. Yeah, IMO, the whole “skirt suits are more formal than pantsuits” is just a sexist opinion, though I know that it prevails in the US (at least). Not saying that I don’t *heed* the majority opinion when I select my clothing for various situations, just recognizing the roots of it.

            So yes, Lynnet, I agree with your point, as well.

   2. Maybe I’m stuck in the 80’s, but I wear nude-for-me hose on a semi-regular basis. I only go bare-legged when it’s really hot outside. I can’t imagine that it’s actually a fashion faux pas.

   3. I wear nude hose nearly every day to work. Call me outdated, if you will, but no one wants to see the terrible veins I have on my lower leg. (When I wear shorts, people ask about my enormous “bruise,” and I have to explain.) They provide a least some coverage in a cold office, and I hate the feeling of wearing closed-toe shoes without something between me and the leather.

      During the winter, I’ll do black tights. But in the summer and spring, what else is a girl to do?

      1. This may be a country thing, but I have never ever heard of anything quite like this! I certainly have never heard of it being old-fashioned (but maybe that makes me old-fashioned). Pretty much everyone I know, most of the women in my office, people I see outside – wear nude tights (I guess what you might call hose, like 10-15 denier). Not those horrible nasty ones that aren’t the same colour as your legs, but the barely noticeable type.

         Certainly black is completely impractical in the summer and I would feel very unprofessional turning up at work with bare legs but of course YMMV (and your office!).

         I’m actually really shocked that this would be classed a faux pas! What else IS there, when black and bare legs aren’t an option. Personally I think they look better than black, anyway.

      2. Maybe it’s weird, but I feel like opaque black tights really skirt the edge of professionalism and am always a bit surprised to see women here commenting about wearing them with suits. To me, opaque black tights are either for very young girls or for ballet class. I think tights that are somewhat sheer, not as sheer as black hose but still allow some light through and have a bit of “gloss”, would probably look okay. Maybe I am thinking about the wrong kind of tights? I see “opaque black tights” and think about the kind that are mostly cotton, with a matte, slightly fuzzy finish that attracts lint, and that tend to bag around the ankles.

         1. I think you are thinking of the wrong tights. The tights you describe would definitely skirt the line of what is appropriate. Frankly, I wouldn’t even know where to find the kind of tights you describe in adult sizes.

   4. I wear nude hose regularly and don’t care if they’re outdated – they’re formal and appropriate and sometimes that is more important to me than fashionable.

      1. I have loved watching the Duchess on her Canada trip – she looks fab, even the maple leaf hat was awesome!

         With the hose issue, there have been some choices that I questioned. She wore slingback espadrilles with hose!! Espadrilles are casual shoes – I think if she is obligated to wear hose, and I think she is (less because she is a royal, and more because on a daily basis she may have to attend church/memorial services or more traditional/sombre events), then I think she should choose a more formal shoe.

         I have loved the nude-for-her pumps she has been rocking most days, which I think are a light enough look for summer without looking like she wishes she were at the beach instead.

         1. I like her nude shoes too. I wonder what brand they are.

            1. LK Bennett.

         2. PS – I loved the maple leaf hat too! So much fun!

         3. I LOVE her wardrobe! I was clicking through photos of her many outfits during this Canada trip, and I wanted every single one. Le sigh.

      2. Me too! Plus (a) no-0ne really wants to look at my so-white-they’re-practically-blue legs, and (b) if I wanted to be warm enough to not have to wear stockings on a regular basis, I’d have to move to Florida. So as long as I continue to be a skirt girl, hose it is!

   5. I saw that article, and I honestly couldn’t tell she was wearing hose until they pointed it out. I thought her hose matched her complexion and everything. I think the editors just wanted to find SOMETHING to criticize her on (since she’s been hitting it out of the park so far), and so they picked something…anything.

      She may ditch it when she gets down to California where it’s a wee bit warmer than Canada.

      1. She can’t ditch it.

   6. I’m not old (early thirties), but I sort of think this “no nude hose unless required at gunpoint” feeling is for twenty-somethings and other women with really nice, even skin tone on their legs. I have some spider veins (from pregnancies), and I do a lot of biking (and I’m clumsy?) so my legs are pretty much constantly bruised all summer. If I’m going to court, or a deposition, or anywhere but my own office with the door closed, I wear nude hose in the summer so as to avoid provoking stares.

      1. My mom is in her sixties and thinks pantyhose are some outdated torture mechanism. This view is very common in Florida among all age groups because it’s just torture wearing them most of the year. Bruises and bites are just part of the Florida lifestyle and no one really blinks an eye.

         1. In FL I agree! That would be a hell.

      2. I’m a 20-something and I wear hose to work every time I wear a skirt or dress. Bare legs are totally inappropriate for an office that is either business or business casual with an emphasis on business – almost as inappropriate as bare shoulders or cleavage. There is at least one judge still on the bench in my state that has asked female attorneys to leave court if they show up without hose. I really don’t understand how anyone could think that nude-for-you hose are out of style when they are a staple of a professional woman’s wardrobe.

         1. Woah, what city do you live in?

            1. A conservative one! Don’t worry, I haven’t heard that about NYC.

            2. I agree w/MaggieLizer & I’m in Atlanta.

         2. I’m also a 20-something working in Detroit… nude hose all the time with skirts! I work in a business formal office, and prefer it year-round. I think black hose (not the opaque kind I’d wear in my personal, casual time) looks way worse.

         3. Agreed; I’m in Cleveland.

   7. EP Lawyer, good thread! I always wear hose, and am in fact wearing nude hose today. (For context, I am not on a job interview or a Princess, although I am frequently told I look like Princess Kate and Anne Hathaway. I am a late twenties civi litigator in the Northeast.) In fact, I actually find it completely inappropriate when ladies where bare legs to Court. I have been thrilled to see the Duchess strutting around Canada in nylons! She always looks so lovely and put together.

      The only hose that look 80s in my opinion are white hose and navy hose…Nude and Black are completely appropriate and necessary for professional settings.

   8. I read an article last week that said there is no royal protocol that requires wearing hose and that it is just much more common for women in the UK to wear them than it is in the US. I don’t know if that is true, but i just read it so it stuck out in my mind.

      I don’t normally wear hose except for something really formal. I think the last time I wore them was for my character and fitness interview and swearing in ceremony. When I do wear them, I always wear nude hose. I’m very careful to match my skin tone though, so hopefully they aren’t a faux pas.

      1. I think this is probably true as I am in the UK and it is really unusual to see people with bare legs unless it is boiling hot outside!

   9. This is such a regional thing. I’m in Chicago and haven’t worn nude hose since Fall 1999 for on-campus interviewing. I’ve switched firms a couple of times since then, and neither time did it even occur to me to wear nude hose for interviewing (or at any other time for any other event/circumstance). I haven’t seen any other professional woman wearing them around here, either, and am pretty sure I’d notice. It looks really dated to me now.

      As for a princess – I still think it looks off.

      1. Perhaps it’s just a more personal thing. I’m also in Chicago and I wear nude hose everytime I wear a skirt suit. I have interviewed female associates who came in skirt suits and no hose and it strikes me as unprofessional.

7. http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/calvin-klein-belted-jersey-sheath-dress/3159340?origin=category&cm_ven=Linkshare&cm_cat=partner&cm_pla=10&cm_ite=1&siteId=BolFSqx4S4U-Vo_qrl2f7OVpSPaHs13Rsg

   Thoughts?

   1. Between the t-shirt material and the zipper, this wouldn’t fly in my office. Especially not in the sweatshirt gray color.

      As an aside, I think this is the kind of dress that can be really flattering on some, and way too clingy on others. I think fabric like this + this drape is not for everyone.

      1. Hm, it definitely would work in my office (not if I had a meeting but for an average day) but I had the same thought about the fabric and the drape, and unfortunately the dress isn’t in any of the nordstrom’s near me to try it on :( good to get second opinions, thanks :)

   2. It’s pretty, but I don’t think it quite works either, and I think it’s because it’s solid-colored jersey. If it had some kind of nice pattern + casual-ish office, then yes.

   3. It’s ok, nothing special. I wouldn’t pay $70 for it but a $30 Target version of the same style would be a good basic.

8. Yesterday I saw a guy (yes, a guy) in the subway wearing a short suit.

   That is all.

   1. The subway in Bermuda, no doubt.

   2. That’s unfortunate.

   3. They’re kind of fashionable in some circles–we should remember that not everyone works in a conservative environment. In New York, there are tons of people working in fashion and the arts who get points for trendy clothes.

      1. Yeah, but a guy?

      2. Especially guys–I mean, they’re mostly gay men who work in fashion (from what I can tell) but they’re big (well, maybe not big, but not unheard of) in certain parts of the city (SoHo, Chelsea).

         1. Or a guy trying to get a modeling agent on Weeds.

   4. I just want to know if you were able to resist humming AC/DC songs as you walked past.

   5. I saw a guy in Tribeca last week wearing a short suit. As much as I don’t like the skirt suit trend, he was kind of working it.

   6. My dad has an article from the WSJ on his fridge regarding suits with cropped pants for men! Yup, that’s right. He put it up as a rebuttal to our family’s amusement over the fact that he always gets his pants hemmed so that they look like floods.

      1. Call me crazy, but I actually really like cropped suits for men in Thom Browne’s aesthetic.

      2. Your dad has a great sense of humor!

   7. I am in Toronto and saw many drag queens doing the walk of shame on Monday morning, with messy weaves and torn hose, looking for the subway to get home after having fun at the post-pride parties.

      That is quite a spectacleto behold, let me tell you.

9. Anyone have any experience with the sizing and quality of Suzi Chin cocktail dresses? There’s a super cute one on sale at Ideeli today that is tempting me…

   1. Generally, pretty tts (8 dress at JCrew = 8 dress at Suzi Chin). The quality of the ones I’ve tried on has been decent.

10. Ha!

11. Semi-long house threadjack: My husband and I are considering a house purchase, more for investment purposes than our “dream home”. The huge thread a few weeks ago was immensely helpful (thanks to whoever mentioned Trulia.com off-hand, that was a great find). We’re looking to do a foreclosure, and we’re prepared to spend a decent amount of money on repairs if necessary.

    Have any of you dealt with foundation repairs? That was the one deal breaker for us, but we’ve found a seemingly perfect opportunity. The listing agent quoted $5k in foundation repairs… it’s not the sum of money that’s disconcerting, it’s the fact that it’s foundation issues. We haven’t gotten a structural engineer in to inspect it yet, but we’re wondering if it’s worth it to move forward with an inspector, or just walk away altogether.

    Have any of you repaired foundations? What kind of time/cost/maintenance are we looking at? Did it affect the re-sale value of the house?

    1. The pre-purchase inspection on the house I bought 10 years ago revealed foundation problems, and the seller paid to have piers put in to stablize the foundation. Everyone I talked to said, problem solved, don’t worry about it. But I have had sewage problems the entire time I’ve lived in that house, and a several plumbers have told me it is due to the foundation work. When they raise the foundation with the piers, your sewage pipes under the house can crack, leading to roots in your pipes, or end up not at the right “incline” which can cause clogs (I have cast-iron pipes running under the foundation, not sure if it would be a problem with PVC). I have also had to have the foundation repair company come out a couple of times to adjust the piers, when new cracks appeared in the walls. I’ve been quoted a price of $5,000 to dig a trench in my floor and foundation and replace the pipe that runs under the house, but am obviously not anxious to do that. I keep putting root killer in the pipes 2x a year, and keep Roto-Rooter on speed dial. Personally, I wish I had walked away when the foundation problems were revealed, and will never buy another house with those issues. But, your situation may be different, I would definitely look at it very carefully before proceeding.

       1. Thank you! That explains my sewer problems. I bought a flipped house where the flipper did some major foundation work (it was needed) but I had 2 back-ups within two months of moving in.

          Luckily, my plumber was able to do a one-time fix ($$$) and I haven’t had a back-up since.

          1. I will have to do a permanent fix before I can ever sell the house, but am hoping to do some kind of trenchless, pipe relining type of repair instead of digging up my foundation to repair the line with cracks in it. I don’t think it will be any cheaper, but at least I won’t have a trench running through my house. Wish there had been an easy way to fix it!

    2. Yikes. Foundation problems would be an instant deal-breaker for me. The problem is, the foundation supports all the other systems in the house. Who knows what else could have shifted due to problems with the foundation. Plus, you have to question what caused the foundation problems in the first place, and how old the house is. If the house is less than 50 years old and having foundation problems already, I’d be really concerned about the quality of the build.

       Keep in mind too that the listing agent’s interest is selling the house. They may have quoted you $5k in repairs, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the cost was at least double that.

    3. I would definitely get a structural engineer in there. We had one look at a doorway in our house to see if we needed a beam (to enlarge the door) and the cost was quite reasonable. If they look at the foundation they will be able to tell you if it is really $5K you are looking at, or more like $30K.

    4. I’m a construction defect attorney. I would run away. Fast. You never know if the problem is “fixed,” or if it will actually cost another $100k in 6 months or 2 years from now.

    5. Sigh… I figured it wouldn’t be good news, hence the “deal breaker” status we had on foundation issues in the first place. Thanks for the feedback!

       1. Do not trust anything either agent says, especially about costs — make them show you a written bill (heating bills) or estimate (plumbing, etc) or better yet, get your own. The agents only make money if the deal goes through and there is almost no downside if they lie to you unless it is an especially egregious one.

    6. I question the premise of buying a house for investment purposes – a house, especially an investment property is a *lot* of work, and historically sinking the cash into an index fund is going to have a higher yield.

       Foundation repairs are going to be expensive – and significantly lower the house’s resale value (because the inspector will be able to tell, no matter how perfect).

12. Update threadjack: Several months back I wrote about breaking up with my long-term boyfriend and received wonderful advice from you all about ensuring I stayed healthy and happy as I moved forward.

    I have a first date coming up (meeting for drinks after work) and having been out of the game for so long I have no idea what to wear. Any advice from the hive? Thanks ladies.

    1. I treat meeting up after work as a perfect excuse not to worry about what to wear! I just wear whatever I was wearing to work (maybe with a little effort to wear some of my most flattering work clothes that morning). Some people will swap in less work appropriate jewelry or shoes and remove blazer/cardigan.

    2. definitely wear what you wore to work. Takes a lot of the guesswork out. Try to wear your cutest dress or most flattering skirt/top combo. If you don’t have such outfits, I would buy one – you can wear it on your date, plus you can henceforth wear it to work. I would also wear sexier shoes than you might wear to work.

    3. I love dresses and have several that I would definitely wear to work but I also feel pretty wearing them after work. I remember going on a 2nd date (I think) with a very dear ex and wearing a black jcrew dress that was fairly fitted for a dinner date after work on a friday. He showed up in jeans in a sweater (at the time, I didn’t know he worked at home). So I felt a little overdressed in comparison…but he later told me that he loved seeing me dressed up and loved the dress, etc…so don’t worry about where you’re going or what you’re doing…wear something that is work appropriate but that still makes you feel pretty.

    4. Wear something you would typically wear to work, but pick the nicest/most stylish outfit in your work wardrobe – something that you feel awesome and confident in. Jazz it up with some interesting jewelry, and maybe add to your day makeup before you leave, depending what your normal daily makeup routine is. I tend to just do concealer, eyeliner, powder and a light bronzer, occasionally a sheer/neutral eyeshadow, so I would step up the eyeshadow and add mascara. Maybe even roll on a highlighter.
       The point is for you to feel confident and gorgeous :) Good luck!

    5. I like something that can transition easily from work to play. I’d do a wrap dress where you can swap out your work shoes with sandals (maybe pair with a fun necklace). That also gives a lot of flexibility between dressy and casual (so you don’t look overdressed by wearing a suit while he shows up in jeans).

13. Ladies – about 3 weeks ago I interviewed for a position and I know that the last candidates are being interviewed this week. Since I interviewed so early in the process, I want to refresh their memory of me and remind them of my qualifications, etc. I’m thinking of sending an email – what do you think about this opening sentence? I don’t like the word “restate” but can’t think of another. Thanks in advance!

    “I know you are nearing the end of interviews for the XXX position in the YYY program and wanted to restate my interest in the job and my qualifications as we discussed them several weeks ago.”

    (bulleted list to follow)

    1. how about reiterate?

       1. or “express my continued interest in the job”

          I agree with others that a bulleted list akin to your resume line is a bit too jarring.

          1. Second — “express my continued interest in the job”– it is my go-to phrase in situations like this. Agree with Anon that bullet points seem jarring. I would note specifics of things discussed that attract you to the position / company/ firm.

    2. Ehh…I think reiterating interest is fine. I think it seems “off” to bullet point your qualifications unless the job is THAT specific and you have qualifications that perfectly suit it. The way I see it – a resume gets you in the door, an interview fills in the blanks on the resume and determines if you have the right personality. Following up to show interest fills a necessary part of the puzzle (does person x want the job, really want it) but restating what should be on your resume/cover letter really just takes you back to the beginning and seems odd to me. FWIW, I do interview people.

    3. reconfirm?

14. I am interested in working with a Nordstrom personal shopper as I start a job in biglaw in October and have very few professional clothes. Money is pretty tight right now, so I have two questions for you Nordstrom experts: Would it be worth it to work with a personal shopper now when I probably have a max of $500 to spend now, considering my available income will soon be rising? Also, can I meet with a shopper right before the big anniversary sale to avoid the crowds and then get price adjustments once things are marked down? Thanks!

    1. If your total clothing budget for building a professional wardrobe is $500, I think you’d blow through that pretty quickly at Nordstrom. You might be able to pick up a couple items on sale with money leftover for filling in basics elsewhere, but I think you should set your sights on places like Ann Taylor and other chains with frequent sales (my Ann Taylor has an additional 50% off all sale items today!) to get the most bang for your buck at this stage. It still might be a helpful experience and you could start building a relationship for when you have more to spend, but if I were you I’d probably just wait.

    2. Nordstrom has lower priced lines like Halogen. If you go during the sale you’ll probably be able to get 4-5 decent outfits for $500, making the personal shopper well worth it. She’ll be able to tell you everything that’s on the sale (usually they send out the catalog a few weeks before), which will help you.

    3. I think $500 is a good start. Let the personal shopper know you plan to return after you get your first couple paychecks. $500 won’t get you much of a professional wardrobe, but it’ll get you two or three work outfits. I actually think it’s a good idea to start with just two or three outfits, and then, after a few weeks at the firm, you’ll have a better idea of what else you want and need.

       Yes, you can meet with a shopper before the sale and they’ll reserve things for you to buy once they’re marked down. However, they may already be booked with appointments from other women with the same strategy!

    4. Some Macy’s stores also have personal shoppers. You could probably get more items for your $500 there than at Nordstrom. Then, head to Nordstrom when the income has started flowing and you’re ready to expand your wardrobe.

    5. OK, I never encourage charging more to a credit card than you can afford to pay off now. Except I did charge more than I could afford when I was in your exact same situation. I was about to start at a firm and had no professional clothes except my interview suite. Over the course of a weekend I charged something like $2k to my credit cards (nearly maxing them out) for professional clothes.

       I’m glad I did it. Here’s why:
       1. I had a few interviews so I knew what people in the office wore on a daily basis. I still stuck to basics–black/grey pants, one-color button-up shirts, and one-color sweaters. Basic shoes.

       2. I was able to easily pay the cc bill after my first paycheck.

       3. I had no time to shop once I started working.

       4. I felt really professional (and confident) knowing I had a great professional wardrobe that first week.

       1. I would agree with this and I speak from experience. When I started working, I bought a bunch of lower-end dresses (Tahari ASL, Ann Taylor, BR, the Calvin Klein business dress line) and wore those for a few months. Then I started making a lot of money, and I’m a shopper, so I started buying higher-end clothes. Guess which clothes I never ever wear anymore? I wish I had splurged on 2 Theory outfits instead of the 5 lower-end ones I bought. And especially because you are in biglaw, you are going to want to dress well.

          More to the point, if you open up a Nordstrom CC, you can shop the anniversary sale right now (and take the stuff home with you – no pre-saleing). There are a few really cute Classiques Entier dresses, skirts and pants, and nice stuff from Lafayette 148 and Theory. I would set a budget ($2k seems right) and go for it.

    6. I am doing exactly this. Exactly. I am shopping the Anniversary Sale pre-select with a personal shopper on Friday. My budget’s $500 for this week, and I’m saving up a little wardrobe “nest-egg” of $5k to spend over the next several months building my professional wardrobe. I have notified the personal shopper for Friday that my budget is $500.

       Ladies, What should I buy? I’d love any helpful suggestions and tips on how to build a professional wardrobe (with a total budget of 5k max. If you think I can do it for less or if I need more, tell me.) My firm is somewhat relaxed. Suits to court. Tailored separates are perfectly fine for M-Th. We have casual Fridays that are impossible to dress for.

    7. I just went today – I bought a wonderful brown patterned Halogen suit (skirt/jacket) for $150, and she pulled awesome outfits for me. There were some really nice Classiques Entiers shirts which I think go really well with suits for about $50/each. I spent a little more than $500, but bought some quality items that mix and match really well. Highly recommend. Also, don’t forget that everything at Nordstrom is returnable, so I am in favor of buying things, then seeing what goes with what you already have, and returning what is redundant or what you doesn’t really work with your existing wardrobe. That being said, be careful – I did splurge on some badly-needed jeans which were nearly $190 marked down to $100!

15. I think it’s okay to send an email reinforcing your interest in the job and inviting them to contact you with any follow up questions. I don’t think it’s a very good idea to repeat your qualifications (especially in a bullet point list). I interview candidates, and it would rub me the wrong way if someone sent a follow up repeating their qualifications. They have your resume, and they probably took notes after the interview if you discussed qualifications that aren’t on your resume. Perhaps you could tie your interest in the job to a particular qualification you want to highlight (e.g., “I would welcome the opportunity to put to use the skills I developed doing Y.”)

16. Question – I just got some lovely leather pumps, but it’s one of those shoes with very very soft leather – I can score it with my fingernail. Do any of you have a recommendation for a spray or product to protect them? Thanks!

    1. Kiwi clear leather wax. Get a stiff application brush and follow the instructions on the cannister. Best way to take care of shoes, in my opinion!

       1. Thanks!

17. I am going to travelling a lot next month, mostly internationally and am thinking of buying the louis vuitton “Neverful” bag.

    But, realizing it is covered with logo and considering the price, I am a bit hesitant.
    So what is the general consensus on the bag? – yay or nay?

    1. I honestly hate them and everytime I see them I think they’re a fake. To me it’s not worth the price tag.

    2. It’s a good looking bag, but I would think seriously about traveling with it. Are you going to dangerous areas? Will the bag scream “tourist”? Will you be bummed if it gets handled roughly at the airport? Etc. Etc.

       1. Not a fan of hugely logo’d bags. Overseas, I think they’d brand you as a tourist and possibly easy mark for someone with nefarious intent.

    3. Skippy Pea – my thoughts on LV logo bags for traveling is that they may make you a more likely target for theft (as in, there’s someone with money, let’s pickpocket her). Also, not sure if you’re in NYC or not, but it sometimes seems to me that every second woman in the city has the Neverfull, so just something to think about if you were looking for something unique. I’m not hugely against the LV logos, though it’s not my personal style, but I think that bag is very pricey for something that’s canvas.

       Personally, I have a longchamp le pliage tote and absolutely love it for travel (definitely another bag that every woman in NYC has, but I wasn’t going for unique-ness with this one). It’s super light, and is a perfect ‘personal item’ carry-on bag since it fits magazines, a laptop, a change of clothes etc. While it’s also a bit pricey, I’ve found it to be well worth it and it’s definitely quite a few steps below the price of the LV.

       Just my two cents, hope you enjoy your upcoming travel!!

       1. Thanks all. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I will contiue to look for other travel bags and take a second look at the Longchamp.

          1. I have a Longchamp that is made with a coated leather material. Super durable. It’s my go-to carryon when traveling.

          2. I agree with the other posters (though i do own the neverfull), but i dont think the longchamp bag solves the concerns — its just another brand of the same thing.

             1. I don’t think that Longchamp is as in your face as the LV. A large one is not cheap, but I think it’s under $200 (maybe even way under), whereas the LV is a couple of times that. Big difference.

    4. It is a classic, elegant and highly functional (although I’d prefer itwith the Damier canvas instead of the monogram canvas). However, I see knockoffs of it everywhere and the majority of women carrying one are carrying a knockoff. If you don’t care that some people might think it’s a knockoff, then I think it’s a good choice.

       1. Agree with Pepper; I usually prefer the Damier ébène canvas.
          If you do not mind people thinking it might be fake then the neverfull is a sturdy bag.
          My only concern for the neverfull is that it is an open top bag (no zipper); so unless you put a pashmina on top of your belongins in the bag, it would be easier for a pickpocket to stick their hand inside.
          Separately, LV just launched a new Speedy with a strap so you might want to look into it.
          Longchamp is great and you can even get some nice Longchamp carry on totes that are made of very soft leather and have a strap. They are a bit pricey but have many pockets and are at a lower price for leather compared to waxed canvas from LV.

    5. I use the Longchamp for travel and it’s great – washable, light, durable.

       If you really want an LV , I’d get something from the epi range. Super classy and durable. Mine survived 3 hrs of being crushed under my business class seat when I decided to stretch my legs and forgot to move my bag! That said, I’m not a logo girl.

18. Threadjack here. Advice needed.

    I am separated from my husband and planning to get a divorce after a 10+ year abusive relationship. There was infidelity and substance abuse in my marriage too. My self-esteem has been in the gutter, not helped by the fact that my soon to be ex blames me for many of his problems and the problems in the marriage.

    In going through this difficult period, I’ve found myself leaning a lot on a married male friend. This male friend and I have slept together a few times. He is funny, smart, and sexy and he has been someone I can really lean on in this mess that my life has become. He has given me tons of great advice as well as some of the best sex I’ve had in years. I hear from him pretty much every day and if I don’t hear from him for a while, I find myself getting depressed. I am definitely getting attached. I know I shouldn’t let this go on, but he is a good friend and I care a lot about him. I think the relationship is essentially a Friends With Benefits situation.

    The thing is, I can’t bring myself to cut him loose. This weekend, I did a lot of soul searching after he almost got caught by his wife (she came across my name on his cell phone). I didn’t hear from him for a day and a half after he told me about the incident. I was really upset when I wasn’t sure of his feelings. I decided that it was for the best if he ended it, but when I heard from him again, I felt only relief that he was still “mine.” I am not in love with him but I am very dependant on him right now. I genuinely don’t see myself falling in love with him – he obviously would not be trustworthy as a long term partner. He also has no intention of leaving his wife for me anyway and he is not looking for love. All that said, I do have strong feelings for him even if those feelings aren’t love per se.

    I need some advice from corporettes who may have been there before. What should I do? My gut tells me I should end it, but the thought of ending it is really upsetting. I am not ready to date again, so if I end it, I’ll truly be alone. Do you think it’s possible to stay FWB until I’m ready to move on?

    1. Okay, I haven’t been in your shoes. And I’m going to try to be very kind, because it is clear that you are hurting. But for the love of god, this is not Friends with Benefits, this is a man who is cheating on his wife. With you. I don’t think you are doing your self esteem any favors by starting out your new life as “the other woman”. You already know you deserve better than an emotionally abusive husband and unsatisfying marriage – well guess what – you also deserve better than a man who cheats on his wife, and has no intention of ever committing to you. Find Someone Better.

       1. Agree. Though I realize this is very difficult to do when you’re coming from a place of feeling worthless and, for better or worse, this guy makes you feel worthwhile. If you can afford to do so, please see a therapist, preferably one who works with couples as a large part of his/her practice. If you can’t afford to do so, please end things. Yes you will be lonely. But that loneliness will serve a purpose – it will force you to work on creating a life you want. You can do whatever you want without having to explain to anyone why you want to spend the day doing __. And if you want to talk to someone about how wonderful __ was, you can work on finding people who share that interest. Say you spend the day at an art museum, lots of museums have lecture series (that you may or may not have to be a member to enjoy). Go there and sit near someone else who is alone. Try to strike up a conversation. There’s a decent chance that person is there to meet other people too…If you like to run (or think you might like to run) join a running group…whatever it is, explore it. And if it turns out you spent the day doing something you hate, never do it again. Don’t jump from one dysfunctional relationship to another. Break the cycle.

       2. Absolutely agree with this. This is not a FWB scenario. Like Oneanon, I don’t want to be harsh, but you’re The Other Woman. You deserve better than that (and so does his wife). You might not be in love with him (now), but you are dependent on him. You will suffer a loss when this ends, and it will be compounded by the fact that you’re relying on your friend for emotional strength rather than cultivating it from within yourself.

          I know it’s scary to be alone. And it sucks. I think you need a good cry, a couple of days wallowing around in pajamas, and a therapist. Like others have said, cultivate your interests, meet new people, start a new exercise regimen. Work on yourself and building up your self-esteem.

       3. I haven’t been there before, but the answer here (No! run away! You’ll never be “ready to move on” if you continue like this) is obvious , I’m sorry to say.

          Your comment says: “I’m in a fragile state. I met this guy I think is totally awesome. I talk to him every day. I’m really attached to him. I’m really upset when I’m not sure of his feelings for me. But I’m not in love with him! No really! I am just dependent on him, and depressed when he doesn’t talk to me, and have strong feelings that are NOT LOVE, I promise! I just want him to be mine! I can’t let him go! Why don’t you believe me when I say it’s not love?”

          You’re trying to convince yourself that you aren’t in love with (or at least very emotionally attached to) him, and it’s not very convincing at all. When one party has feelings like yours, it’s definitely not a FWB, and it’s NOT sustainable. And this doesn’t even take into account the fact that he’s a married guy cheating on his own wife who has no plans to ever commit to being with you. (i.e. a jerk).

          You can get great sex from other people. You can get advice and a listening ear from other people too. You can make friends, get a therapist, or you can also learn to be alone with yourself for a period of time, which is often very healthy after ending a long relationship, and indubitably much healthier than what you’re doing now. Please don’t continue on with this guy — I think things will end up getting more and more unhealthy rather than improving.

    2. There was infidelity in your marriage which has ended. You are passing that on to another woman by engaging in infidelity with her husband.

       And you are asking what to do?

    3. Better to be truly alone, and process all that you’ve been through and what it means to you. This might be the time to find a supportive and empathic therapist to help sort out and come to grips with the brutal journey that you’ve been on. Can you lean on your friends? Your family? Get a pet, and be comforted by him/her? By cheating on his wife with you, at a time when you are suffering deeply, this friend is not showing you any respect or doing you any favors. I’m so sorry to hear that you are hurting so much. The situation sounds excruciating. But I don’t think your friend is helping you climb out of this pit of despair. You need to surround yourself with people with people who will reinforce the necessity of taking very good, compassionate care of yourself as you navigate this tricky time. Wishing you all the best!

    4. I know you are hurting and this is an especially vulnerable time for you right now. But, you do need to be realistic about your relationship. YOU are the other woman in this marriage. You reference infidelity in your opening sentences talking about the breakup of your marriage so you obviously know the hurt that can be caused by a cheating spouse. I agree with Oneanon – don’t start your new life this way. You need to heal and make a new life for yourself. Then you need to begin a relationship with a man who doesn’t already belong to someone else. Please be honest with yourself and move on to something better.

    5. Regular poster, but anonymous for this purpose.

       I have been in your shoes (except not going through a divorce – vulnerable for other reasons). I *did* end up falling in love with the married man, and while I still believe he genuinely loved me too, it was an excruciating and heartbreaking process to realize that he was simply having his cake and eating it too, as the saying goes, and was never going to leave his wife, no matter how unsatisfying he told me that relationship was.

       You are already vulnerable and are going through a difficult time as it is. Do not make it worse for yourself by putting yourself in the position of relying on someone who really *cannot* be there fully for you. And, whatever you believe now, do not run the risk of falling in love with him. Falling in love can happen for a number of reasons, whether you plan it or not, and you do not want to wake up one morning and find that you do love this man. You will just end up going through the “alone” stage all over again.

       When my relationship (such as it was) ended, I felt the same as you feel now – that no-one would want me and that I would truly be alone forever. I believe I was clinically depressed, though I never saw a doctor about it. But I filled my life with other things that were healthier, and after some time I felt brave enough to start dating. Now I am in a very healthy relationship with a fantastic man, and I believe there is a good future for us. And along the way I strengthened my relationships with my friends, got some new hobbies, and planted a gorgeous garden.

       Do not undervalue yourself. You are a wonderful person and you will not be alone. There are lots of people out there who love you and who will not use you or take advantage of you, as this man is doing now. Be strong.

       Hugs.

    6. Were you hurt by your husband’s infidelities? Do you really want to inflict that pain on another woman? You may think this guy is a “friend” but he’s a user. You deserve better. Would you have let yourself get in this situation if your soon to be ex had not done a number on your self-esteem? Get out of this relationship, and work on healing yourself.

    7. You can do better. Obviously, this has been a very tough year for you, which is probably why you’re with this guy. Don’t waste your time on this clown. He may be funny and smart, but he’s leading you on and cheating on his wife all at once. I say go online now and go on a few dates. I’m not saying you’ll meet the love of your life, but you’ll realize that there are plenty of fish in the sea.

    8. So, this is probably going to sound harsh, but it drives me INSANE when everyone posts that “you deserve better” in these kinds of situations. Well, I’m sorry, but I don’t think you do. His wife deserves better — you are knowingly sleeping with a married man. Stop being selfish and find someone else single.

       1. I’m with ya on that one!

    9. Hi all. Thanks for your comments, especially those of you who are non-judgmental. I really appreciate that. Believe me, I feel bad about his wife. Ultimately, though, my friend is the one who made vows to his wife and the betrayal of those vows is his cross to bear. As a former betrayed spouse, I never blamed the other women for what my ex did to me. My ex is the one who betrayed me, not them.

       You have all given me a lot of food for thought. I made an appointment with a therapist. It is clear that I have a lot of issues to work through before I can think about getting involved in another relationship. I don’t know how I will end the affair with my friend, but I will do it when I find the strength. It is clear to me now that it can’t go on for much longer or I will risk becoming even more emotionally damaged.

       1. I agree with the other commenters on seeing a therapist and committing to improving your situation even if it sucks in the short term, breaking bad habits (including your relationship with a married man), and creating a support system around yourself that’s healthy. That includes good girlfriends who can lift your spirits, take you out for funny movies, and at some point, when you’re ready, introduce you to some amazing single guys they know.

          At my lows, I’ve spent “movie days” cleaning my place top to bottom (my movies of choice are Bridget Jones, My Big Fat Greek Wedding, Gilmore Girls, etc.), purging clothes and taking them to Goodwill, cooking, and working out. It is so hard but you have to be strong on your own and push through the loneliness – things will improve over time, grief will subside, and you’ll be mentally ready for someone who treats you with respect.

          Take up hobbies you’ve neglected, pamper yourself a bit, and maybe take a fun trip on your own to collect your thoughts and re-connect with old friends or family. You will be ok and things do get better but making the right choices as soon as possible will make it easier.

       2. Although you may not have made the vows to his wife, you are still blameworthy. I speak as someone who has been cheated on before. You may think that you are not at fault, but you are. Certainly he would likely cheat on her with someone else if you weren’t the one to make a mockery if his marriage, but if everyone had enough tact to refuse to involve him or herself in a physical relationship with a married person, there would be significantly less cheating involved, and fewer marriages destroyed. Given what you have experienced, I understand that you need to be able to turn to someone else, but please do not be so selfish as to think that your actions are perfectly acceptable. They aren’t.

          Since you have been cheated on before, I’m sure you understand the psychological consequences of infidelity. It destroys your spirit, makes you feel inadequate, and can make you question the fidelity of your future significant others. Why would you, as someone who has been through that, subject someone else to that?? It is beyond all comprehension for me.

          Please forgive me if this comes off as overly judgmental. I am sorry that you are going through this, and that your marriage had such a deleterious effect on you. I hope that you end this relationship with someone who is clearly using you- for your sake as well as his wife’s- and see a therapist to help you re-build your self-confidence.

          1. I totally get what you’re saying. I do. I don’t think I’m blameless in this situation and I really don’t want his wife to find out and experience the pain of being cheated on (I wouldn’t have posted for advice on ending it if I didn’t realize that). At the same time, what happened has happened. I can’t change the past. Yes, I slept with a married man. I needed to feel attractive and desirable and he was there to make me feel that way. He is someone I feel comfortable with and trust (not as a potential long-term partner, but trust in the sense that I felt comfortable with trusting him enough to sleep with given my self-confidence issues). I would have had a hard time jumping into bed with a total stranger and I would have invested a lot more into a relationship than I should be investing at this point. I am not ready for a true relationship that could lead to something more. None of this makes it right for me to be The Other Woman, of course. I also really don’t want to focus on my friend’s wife’s emotions right now. As selfish as it sounds, I need to focus on healing myself and to do that, i have to put the responsibility for his wife on him.

             1. “As selfish as it sounds, I need to focus on healing myself and to do that, i have to put the responsibility for his wife on him.”

                I agree that you need to focus on healing yourself, but you can’t do it at the expense of hurting someone else. Not okay.

                Send him a message that says that you’ve decided you need time alone right now. Then call your cell phone company and block his number. Don’t call him. I don’t think you can baby step your way away from this mess – you need a clean break, and you need it now.

             2. Actually, I think you DO need to focus on your friend’s wife’s feelings. That will help you understand that you need to stop this, now. Not when you’re “ready” which can be code for procrastination. Not until you find someone else. NOW.

                In your original post, you are essentially asking for permission to stay with this man. You don’t know what to do. You can’t bear to cut him loose. Maybe you can stay with him until you’re ready. No, no, no. You are paying forward the toxicity your ex-husband gave you and destroying another marriage, another woman’s life in the process. Please. Stop. Now.

             3. “I needed to feel attractive and desirable.” You need to feel this on your own, and not rely on someone else to give it to you. You are using him as a crutch because you don’t think you can do it on your own. And you won’t be able to do it on your own until you drop him and find out. You will survive without him, and you’ll start healing sooner without having to deal with the baggage of being a party to the cheating.

                So drop him. You can’t change the past, but you can take action not to repeat it. You need a neutral 3rd party (like a therapist) to help you sort out your issues, and he is NOT it. Drop him, don’t call him, don’t talk to him, don’t check in with him. Cut him out of your life. You do NOT need him to help you get through this.

       3. That’s fantastic that you called a therapist. Calling is among the most difficult steps.
          A couple things (coming from someone who has benefitted enormously from therapy for some old, unresolved issues impairing my relationships):
          (1) Feel free to say “this therapist is not for me”. I knew I found the right therapist when during the first session (which is more of an overview) she got me to talk about things that were really painful from my past that I was loathe to even mention.
          (2) At least for me, the first session was amazing – felt on top of the world to be finally unburdening myself. The next, I don’t know, 10 or so were some of the most difficult things I’ve done. I literally felt like I was going to die and can remember one night crying uncontrollably for no reason for about 4 hrs straight. But I lived.
          (3) About 2 mos in, a lot of people call it quits. You’ve sort of identified your issues, you feel like you’ve made great progress (and you probably have). I felt that way. But now, looking back, I realized that it was sort of the equivalent of a morbidly obese person recognizing they have a problem with food…that’s an important step, but so is figuring out how to live a life where food plays a normal role. I had to figure out how to live my life so that I was not only making good choices (for me) but that I could recognize what was a good choice and what was a bad choice without relying on someone else to tell me.
          Anyway, you’ve taken a very very important step. Think about each step for now — it gets too overwhelming to think about the end goal, at least at first.

       4. My unpopular opinion is that this guy was a nice, comfy place to land.
          He was a crutch. Don’t get attached to this guy, he’s served his purpose for you. Don’t put yourself in a position to get hurt.
          Say thank you, take a deep breath and move on. Good luck.

    10. I agree with what others said here. I’ll add that what you went though in your marriage does not give you a moral license to participate in his betrayal of his wife. She is being betrayed here. While you technically are not the one married to her, you are an accessory to it. You are a selfish bi**h with no scruples.

        1. I posted my comment before reading OP’s follow ups. My sentiments are confirmed.

           “Yes, I slept with a married man. I needed to feel attractive and desirable and he was there to make me feel that way.”

           “I also really don’t want to focus on my friend’s wife’s emotions right now. As selfish as it sounds, I need to focus on healing myself and to do that, i have to put the responsibility for his wife on him.”

           “I just need to feel desirable, to feel something, to know that I am normal and not boring in bed, to have someone care about me. In a twisted way, part of it is the fact that my ex risked our marriage over and over again without (sufficient?) regard for my feelings because his pleasure with someone else was worth more than fidelity to me. In a sense it’s nice to be on the other side, to have someone else risk his marriage because for some reason I’m worth that risk.”

        2. I am not trying to justify my actions and say that they were morally right. The past year has been hell for me. I am SO grateful that there are no children invovled. I can imagine how awful this situation would be if I had kids!

           I am just trying to explain HOW I found myself in this situation and find some help in moving on. It is going to be very hard for me to do what I need to do and cut this man out. Even if I’m not in love with him, he is an important part of my life. We were good friends before my husband left me for another woman and confessed to having 3 different mistresses from the time we started dating. So, it’s not as simple as cutting out some man – it’s cutting out a person who has been a close friend for years.

           1. You need to cut him out of your life. Now. Put it behind you, seek counseling, and move on. If this sounds like tough love, it is. You can’t maintain a friendship with this person, and frankly, someone who takes advantage of you during an emotionally fragile time because he saw the opportunity for a new f*ck buddy to perpetuate what is probably a series of marital infidelities is not really your friend.

              1. And then in how many months is his wife in a relationship with someone, explaining how how SHE found herself in that relationship, because HER husband confessed to cheating on her with someone he (and possibly SHE) considered a long-time friend?

                 Justification and excuses are not your friends here. It doesn’t matter how or why you found yourself in the situation. What matters is you need to get out.

              2. Actually, for the OP, it does matter why she found herself in the situation. As someone who kept repeating bad habits in relationships because of things that happened to me in my past, it absolutely does matter for her why she does it. Until she unravels that, she won’t be able to make anything work. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t in the short term cut off something she recognizes has destructive elements. But she’s found herself in two really destructive relationships that are about what the men need, not her. She has to look at why that is and directly address that so that her next relationship is healthy.

19. I’m sorry to say that I’ve been there too. It was during a really difficult time in my life (Biglaw, post-divorce, super miserable, full of unmet needs). For me, I really just wanted a friend, and if I had to fool around with one of my “friends” to get that emotional connection, then so be it. The whole thing was an epic disaster in the end, and looking back I think part of the reason why I was so emotionally invested in this person was that I was in a world of pain and just needed to escape from it for a little while.

    But you know that feeling when he checks his phone to see if his wife called? You know that horrible, empty, screaming feeling? Where you want to cry and hate yourself for wanting to cry? You do NOT need that feeling in your life. Especially on top of all the other pain you’re going through.

    Force yourself to end it. Order streaming Netflix. Drink wine and be alone and be sad and cry until you can’t cry anymore. And at the end of that, you will be in a better place and free to move on into a real relationship with someone who leaves his computer open and spends the night and only texts you to say I love you. Believe me.

    1. Yes, this is exactly how I feel. I just need to feel desirable, to feel something, to know that I am normal and not boring in bed, to have someone care about me. In a twisted way, part of it is the fact that my ex risked our marriage over and over again without (sufficient?) regard for my feelings because his pleasure with someone else was worth more than fidelity to me. In a sense it’s nice to be on the other side, to have someone else risk his marriage because for some reason I’m worth that risk.

       1. I am very happy that you have made a therapy appointment. I hope that you see how twisted this view is. YOU ARE HURTING YOUR FRIEND’S WIFE. YOU ARE DAMAGING THEIR FAMILY. There are real people, possibly children, on the other side whose lives are being blown to bits by your actions.

          I am sorry to scream and to be so blunt. But I am trying to save my marriage from my husband’s emotional infidelity and it has been brutal. My children have been hurt in the process. They will be hurt even further if their father and I separate. You are now knowingly causing this damage to another family. Please stop and work on healing yourself, instead of seeking to punish your ex and bolster your self-esteem through another man, thereby continuing this horrible cycle.

       2. I’m not even going to comment on the fact that he’s married, because other people have done so. But what you are saying about him making you feel better? That isn’t healing yourself. It is you being unhealthy. You’re deriving your self-esteem from how someone else feels about you instead of how you feel about yourself. It’s quicker and it’s easier in the short term, but it isn’t real — once he’s gone, you have to transfer it to a new guy or it goes away again. What you are doing is actually delaying your recovery.

          I know you’ve been through some rough stuff lately, but that makes it all the more important that you focus on becoming healthy and happy for real. As others have suggested — spend nights at home with just your own company, reconnect with friends (and spend some time focusing on whatever is going on in their life that they need help with — being a good friend will give you the healthy kind of feeling needed and validated), take up a new hobby, volunteer somewhere. Get a pet, if you’re an animal person. Don’t spend more time in a co-dependent pattern with a man you know will hurt you — whether it be your ex, or this guy, or whoever comes along next.

       3. You need to realize how truly messed up you are. You say you need to feel desirable, but he is treating you the opposite of that. He is saying you are the wh*re, you are someone I do not want people to know I am with, someone I will not show in public. You are someone I will use sexually, and give you whatever might be leftover from my real relationships. You are someone to be hidden away and used until you are not worth the risk anymore.

          Do you understand that is the reality, and it is not because you are so beautiful or pretty? You very well may be, but men have affairs with ugly women. They are looking for someone who does not value herself enough to ask for a full relationship. Who will give sex without any emotional commitment, because she doesn’t think she is worth it. That is what you are right now to him. You are moving in the opposite direction of a healthy relationship and you need to get help and stop being delusional about what you are getting from this relationship.

          1. “Do you understand that is the reality, and it is not because you are so beautiful or pretty? You very well may be, but men have affairs with ugly women. They are looking for someone who does not value herself enough to ask for a full relationship. Who will give sex without any emotional commitment, because she doesn’t think she is worth it. That is what you are right now to him.”

             This is 110% the truth. OP, please do not kid yourself that you mean something to your “friend” or that your “friend” is going to REALLY be there for you when the chips are down, i.e., when you really need him and it isn’t convenient for him to be away from his wife/family at that particular moment. You are a fun, excitingly illicit distraction who is giving your “friend” a temporary respite from his boring real life. But when your needs start intersecting with his reality, guess what? He will drop you like a bad habit. How do I know this? Because I have seen it OVER and OVER and OVER with women I know who sleep with married guys, and men I know who have affairs. The women always end up getting in way too deep emotionally and the men always end up running for the hills when the situation becomes too complicated, leaving the “other woman” high and dry. The BEST possible outcome in those situations is that the spouse being cheated on doesn’t find out, and therefore doesn’t tear the family apart and victimize innocent children in the process.

             And please do not – DO NOT – kid yourself about him finding you “sexy and desirable.” He did not sleep with you because you are sexy and desirable. He slept with you because he is a guy and you are female and you (almost certainly) came onto him. When it comes to sleeping with women, most guys never lose their motivation, and if they get the opportunity, there you have it. You were a warm body who was not his wife and you were there – that was the attraction. Most women choose not to believe this, but most men will go after a woman who is a 2 or 3 on a good day if she puts the sex out there and there’s a reasonable chance no one will find out he hit it.

             I personally think you are sad excuse for a human being, but part of me does feel sorry for you. You got screwed in your last relationship and you will get screwed in this one, sooner or later. Unfortunately you are also screwing over your friend’s wife and you don’t even have the common decency to feel bad about it! Did your mother raise you to act like this? I’m sure she’d be SO proud of you right now. Do yourself and everyone else in this situation a favor, and cut off the relationship. Get some help and figure out why you not only put yourself in the victim role but don’t care who you victimize in the process.

    2. “But you know that feeling when he checks his phone to see if his wife called? You know that horrible, empty, screaming feeling? Where you want to cry and hate yourself for wanting to cry? You do NOT need that feeling in your life.”

       Bingo. That, right there. I have had that feeling, many times. Anon (OP), that feeling right there is one that will, over time, make you feel even *more* worthless than you already do. You do not need that. You need the opposite. All the advice given here has been fantastic and will help you get there.

       Another thing (and I know I am going to get flamed for this): I am the first person to agree that getting involved with someone who is married is not a great course of action, but don’t let the people who judge you or call you a bad person for doing so knock you down even further. These things are never as simple or straightforward as they seem to an outsider. Concentrate on making your life healthy and getting back on track, and don’t surround yourself with people who condemn you for your choices.

       1. I agree that OP should not be condemned as a person (who are any of us to condemn another persson?). However, I think her actions must be condemned – part of the healing process requires taking full responsibility for the part she played in engaging a married man in an adulterous affair. There is no way to sugar coat it – her actions are destructive to herself, to her lover, and to her lover’s wife and children (if children are involved).

          OP, I am glad you are seeing a therapist. I hope you come to see value yourself as someone deserving of love, devotion and faithfulness. I also hope you come to see that others are also deserving of love, devotion and faithfulness and will henceforth choose not to participate of depriving them of the same.

20. Any advice on dealing with (VA) bar prep in the last three weeks? What did you ladies do during the last couple of weeks that helped you pass? At this point I’ve covered all of the new material and know there are some concepts I need to review, but is there anything specific you all would suggest?

    Motivational tips would help too. I know it’s a big test but some of the time I find myself feeling burned out and unmotivated!

    1. However you prepared – writing your own outlines, flash cards, etc. – just keep reading them. Start taking a lot of the multiple choice questions in timed settings. Write out essays in timed settings.

       As for motivational tips – I’m not going to lie, fear was a huge motivator for me. But, I also tried to avoid burnout by doing yoga or cooking dinner. Nothing ever took more than an hour, so it wasn’t an overwhelming task, and at least I was not hunched over my books. Also, and I know a lot of people will recommend this, try to stop studying at a reasonable time at night. Relax, watch tv, and unwind before going to sleep. You’ll feel refreshed when you wake up the next day.

    2. I made flashcards a month away from the bar of all the concepts I was dodgy on, and all the major “tests” (e.g., strict scrutiny v intermediate scrutiny, elements of torts, the mailbox rule). We’re talking about 500 flashcards. Then I would sit and go through the flashcards, and when I could recite the “answer” I would put that flashcard aside. This left me with about 15 flashcards the day before the test that I didn’t “know.” This made me feel very confident about the quantity of information I had actually committed to memory, and confident about the low odds of needing to recite those 15 flashcards verbatim on the test.

       And SLEEP. Nerves kept me from sleeping starting 3 nights before the test, so I was grateful I had a “reserve” (whether such a thing exists scientifically, I don’t know).

       Good luck!

    3. FWIW flash cards worked for me particularly to remember multiple part concepts like holder in due course etc. But don’t switch to flash cards now if you haven’t been using them. I know it’s been said here before but just treat it like a job: work between certain hours, relax in the evening and definitely get enough sleep so you don’t burn out. The end is almost in sight…

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