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J.Crew has a number of cute tweed pencil skirts right now. We like this one, “crafted in a deliciously nubby navy and green tweed with touches of purple throughout” — allegedly inspired by Vermeer. As with any tweed, we'd wear it with a smoother fabric on top — perhaps a blouse or a lightweight cardigan or sweater. The skirt is $118 at JCrew.com. Moss tweed pencil skirt
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- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Lyssa
Threadjack: Help! (sorry so early- I was posting on the last post when this one went up) Tell me I’m (going to do) doing the right thing!
Currently, I’m a year out of law school, but, even with a clerkship and top 10% grades, there weren’t a lot of opportunities. About 2 months ago, I took an independant contractor position with a friend who has been solo-ing for about 2 years. I’ve been helping him out and REALLY enjoying it- the work is fun, since he’s closer to a peer, I’m not stuck feeling (as much) like the helpless little girl following around the old guy, I get to call myself a partner, and I get to set my own hours and work from home.
The downside: It’s independant contractor work (no benefits); I get the hours that there are (which there haven’t been quite as much of as I would like), and I get paid when the client pays.
In theory, once the clients pay, I’m making a lot more than my peers at big law (i.e., at least half again), while billing a lot fewer hours (around 130/month). In reality, though, the money’s slow to come in, and I worry. A Lot. (Ex: for Aug, I billed what would come to me as about 4K; I’ve only seen less than 900 of that now, though I hope its coming- I only worked about half of the month then). I’ve not been able to pull in any of my own clients yet; I’m trying, but I’m not the sales person type. (Although it has only been 2 months.)
Anyhow, I got an offer yesterday from a gov’t agency. It’s for 6 months on contract at 30/hour (about 62K/yr), with a good “in” for a permanant job after (but no guarantees). I could still work part time for my friend (evenings and weekends) while I do this, but it would be tough. The job sounds stable but boring; I wouldn’t get to go to court or anything like that (I’d like to go to court), and it’s not in a field that I’m interested in.
Now, I live in Tennessee-62K is pretty good money here. Added to my husband’s salary, we’d be sitting pretty (most big law jobs in the area appear to be paying a little bit more than that, and the small firms a little bit less). But it’s not enough to get my husband out of his job, which is the goal. Plus, no security after 6 months, not a lot of room for growth, and not the type of work I want to do. Contrast my current job, which is risky, unpredictable, but has great potential and is interesting and exciting.
I think I know what I’m going to do, but I’d really like to hear opinions.
legalchef
Is your husband’s salary on its own able to support you both during the lulls in payment from clients? Can you get benefits from his job?
My gut says to stick with what you are doing; you have’t been doing it all that long for all the wrinkles to be ironed out and it seems to be a pretty good gig in terms of job satisfaction and experience (in addition to salary), with more security than something that you won’t like and that is short term.
Lyssa
Husband’s salary is enough to support for the lulls, but not for a long period of time (we’d eventually reach a point where we couldn’t keep up, particularly with student loans, but it would take some time). We have good benefits through his workplace.
(The hope is, with this job, I can be making enough in a year or so that he can leave his job- we want him to be a stay at home dad- but will need to be making enough to cover benefits, too).
L
Hmm. I would talk to your friend/partner about doing the contract work PT. If you can do both (now would be a good time to do that, without kids etc etc), then you will be able to get benefits and do more of the litigation that you like.
BUT – if it is important to you/him that he be a SAHD, I would look at the job that has the most potential in the long run (the one you are at now, I think). Keep in mind also that it may take a while to get pregnant, so while you are ttc you will also be building a savings cushion.
legalchef
I guess I disagree with the majority here – I still think you should stick with where you are now. It will likely be much more difficult than you think to juggle both (and it might be explicitly prohibited), and you wouldn’t be able to go to court with the PT work because you’d be doing it when the courts are closed.
The gov’t job is only for 6 months, and there is no guarantee that it will lead to something permanent – and you don’t like the work. There is also no guarantee that after the 6 months are up you would be able to go back to doign what you are doing now, because of course things change, and your partner might have taken on someone else in the interim.
There are always bumps with starting something new, the payment issue just happens to be one of them and will likely get figured out. Even if your plan is for your husband to be a stay at home dad, it wouldn’t be immediate, since it takes time to get pregnant, and then you have 9 months of actually being pregnant!
s
im not sure i follow why you think the job you’re in right now has great potential. also, i wouldn’t worry about going to court potential in what you’re doing just 1 year out of law school.
Lyssa
The job I’m in now has potential because I can be an early starter in a growing practice, plus, assuming that I get paid for most of my work, it’s a lot of money.
As for going to court, I might not have been very clear. I’d like to do at least some litigation/advocacy, and the agency job that I’ve been offered would not involve anything along that lines. (BTW, as for going to court, I do get to go to court now- my part of the country may be different than what you’re familiar with in that regards- our idea of big law is a firm with over 50 attorneys :) )
Jeanie
S: You sound like an absolute jerk. Or you don’t seem to think that your first job affects what your second job might be, etc., etc.
The job sounds like it has great potential because, once clients pay, the business is profitable; the work sounds interesting; and the work environment sounds enjoyable. On the other hand, it’s a little scary to go out on your own so early in your career, especially when it means that the income isn’t as steady.
I don’t have a great answer — if I were you, I would probably take the government job and try to juggle the partnership, too. But you might like to hear that I have a friend in a similar position. She and two of her law school classmates clerked/worked at firms for a year or two, then started their own firm. The work isn’t as steady and they sometimes have to hound clients for payment, but it seems like they like the work and are planning on keeping it up. (I think they’ve been doing this for four or five years by now.) On the other hand, her husband is at a firm that pays quite well — he’s probably earning about $200K by now annually — and he has no intention of leaving. (For what it’s worth, her husband also brings in clients and then has to haggle with them to get paid, but he has a large firm to back him up.)
martha
Ewww. And starting a post like that makes you sound . . . how exactly? What’s the prob with asking for more info from the OP?
lawyergrrl
I think as a newbie lawyer, you’ll be better off with both the government experience and credential on your resume. The mantle of “partner” is only as good as your ability to get clients & to lawyer. And right now you aren’t in a position to do either very well — especially if you are not a sales-person type (as you say). Not to mention it would take a snow (not a sales) job to convince most prospective clients to entrust a fresh-out-of- law-school grad with a real ($$) case. Take the temp position, work your butt off, & try to parlay it into something permanent. With a few years of meaningful lawyering experience under your belt, you’ll be able to hang out a shingle again & pitch yourself credibly as an experienced (formerly government) attorney. Good luck!
Anonymous Lawyer
Also, and maybe I’m being overly judgmental, but if a lawyer who graduated 1-2 years ago referred to herself as a “partner”, I’d silently roll my eyes and laugh. I realize that, in a business sense, partner has a specific connotation – but if you are a freshly minted attorney, you shouldn’t be calling yourself a partner regardless. In my former Big Law, Big City life, a 6th year associate left the firm with a partner to form their own firm, and one of her stipulations was that she be a partner in the new firm. Everyone thought this was a joke – and she was SIX years out and very well respected.
Lyssa
I get that. I don’t usually use the term unless I’m using it in the business context (I don’t say “I’m a partner at XXX firm” but my partner and I refer to each other as “partners”, if that makes sense).
FWIW, I’m a little older than the typical recent grad, so it’s not as jarring as it may sound to you, since most people don’t actually know how long I’ve been out.
divaliscious11
That depends on where you practice, I know lots of people who made partner at big Amlaw 100 firms that had 5 year tracks….. As an East Coast transplant to the Midwest, I tend to think its odd, and even a bit ridiculous, but it seems to have been the norm here for many years…. On a 5 year track, a second year is almost a mid-level…lol.
v
But what ARE you supposed to call yourself (or how are you supposed to refer to your partners)? I suppose you could go with “member” of the firm, but that has the same implication, I feel like. And otherwise, you really have to be legally accurate in a lot of contexts.
Anonymous
In a big city with big law firms this might be true, but in smaller towns it’s very common for grads with 1-3 years experience to hang out a shingle.
lawyergrrl
p.s. A lot of government positions have very strict rules about moonlighting as it creates a serious potential for conflicts or even the appearance of conflicts. I would not assume you’ll be able to juggle additional cases on the side if you take the government gig.
CJ
This! You should check with the govt job first. I work for govt (and as an adjunct at the local community college) and am not allowed to practice on the side at all. And I have to get permission every semester before I can start teaching.
SF Bay Associate
That’s exactly what sprang to my mind too. Conflicts.
AIMS
I think how you will be perceived calling yourself a partner depends on your age & demeanor. Not everyone graduates law school at 27.
As for the future potential — once you go gov’t agency, it may be hard to get out. You don’t say what the agency is but there is a big difference in gov’t positions with easily transferrable skills (e.g., A.G.’s office) and positions that aren’t (e.g., office of procurement, where you read contracts, etc.). On the other hand, litigation skills are litigation skills. If you work at this job that you like for 1-2 years, that may not transfer to your own practice or a full-time place at your friend’s firm in a way that works for you, but it may enable you to get a different law firm job w/benefits, etc., in your area. (But I would agree that when applying to these firms, you prob. shouldn’t put “partner” on your resume). Whatever you decide, good luck! It’s a tough time for everyone out there.
Anonymous Lawyer
Sorry but I don’t think that a 40 year old lawyer (just throwing out a number) who graduated 2 years ago has any more business calling him/herself a partner than a 27 year old lawyer who graduated 2 years ago. It isn’t about age – it is about experience in practicing law.
AIMS
I don’t disagree with you in the least.
I just think the eye rolling wouldn’t come up.
I ran into a classmate from law school recently who is in her 2nd career & opened up her own firm w/some other recently graduated, but substantially older than typical newly graduated lawyers. I don’t think they lie about their experience (and that would certainly be unethical), but she said a lot of people don’t even question them about this at all b/c they likely assume that they all have experience, etc. I am not defending the practice, one way or the other. I just think that there are a lot of people who look young and have been practicing for 10-15 years and get mistaken for interns and others who are fresh out & get mistaken for seasoned pros.
divaliscious11
So if I am hearing you correctly, you like the work with the solo, but its not paying the bills. the contract with the government agency is only for 6 months, but the work might be boring – yes?
Do you have kids?
If no kids, and if it were me – I’d take the contract job and continue working the other gig part time. You’ll be tired, but it will give you some time to save some money or pay off some debt – say commit to using earnings from side job to create a 3 month e-fund and then pay down school loans. If the permanent position doesn’t pan out, or the work is too dull, you haven’t lost any ground working for yourself, and you may have some contacts where you can get some of the work you were doing internally outside. Presumably, you wouldn’t be brought on permanently because there isn’t enough work to support you full time, but there is work, you could bring that book of work to yourself as outside counsel. Dull work can be bread and butter to a young solo practitioner.
Reach out to the local solo practice bar – they may have some leads on insurance etc… so that when you all are ready to segue your husband out of his job, you can. If you really want him as the stay at home dad, now is the time to work like a fiend and pay down as much debt as you can practice living on his income NOW, so that you can replace it with your own…
good luck
divaliscious11
Agree with lawyergirl’s caveat about making sure before you accept re conflicts…but if you are only there doing contract work, it may not be a s stringent….
EG
Lyssa, can you find some ways that would make it easier to do both for six months? It sounds like the government job doesn’t meet a lot of your requirements, but security and a steady paycheck are important. If you try the job for six months, you may find it is better than you had hoped so no issue. If you discover you hate it, you will still have been building your experience in the private practice. Doing both will also help to mitigate the risk of the government job disappearing at the end of six months.
But–you do need to find ways to make doing both easier for you and your husband, so you don’t run yourself ragged. If you can do that, I think a person can do almost anything for six months, and at the end you will have a lot more information to make this decision.
Anony
I’m not in law, so take this as simply an outside perspective.
Can you continue with what you are doing and look for something more stable that you would enjoy in the meantime? I know offers aren’t plentiful, but it sounds like you’re in a position not to have to settle–particularly when it is only a temporary position. I’d hold out a bit longer until something comes along with a bit better long-term fit. There is nothing worse than spending time doing something that isn’t your passion, especially if it’s not an automatic or guaranteed track where “paying your dues” lands you somewhere better.
Arachna
I’d stay were you are and give it your best shot.
If you try doing it part time there’s no way you’ll be able to give it the energy and time doing business for yourself demands.
If it doesn’t end up working out, no foul, you’ll have a lot of great expereince and should be able to leverage that into a good position somewhere else. But for now you’re in a position to get great work really early in your career and I’d seize the opportunity.
There are in fact very young lawyers who are extremely successful and 25 year old millionaires in other fields. None of them got there by “paying their dues” for years. Now, not everyone can skip the dues paying (I’m paying a certain amount myself right now and will be for years because it works for me) but neither is it absolutely necessary. If you’ve got the guts for it it could work out spectacular. Frankly, there just aren’t 10 years of thing to learn in law – the 10 or 8 year track is artificial and is a lot more about clients than about knowledge of the law and how to be a good lawyer, which you can learn in a couple of years with no problems.
Gail
This.
MJ
This.
Been there, done that...
I would stick with the firm. It sounds like you have a lot of potential there and that your friend is bringing in work. You actually have a great opportunity to learn how to do some rainmaking from someone who seemingly knows how to do it. Rainmaking is a really important skill to learn. (I’m in the process of trying to figure it out after spending many years in-house with no mentor.) It’s a skill that a lot of young associates in BigLaw have a difficult time with as evidenced by some questions on this site.
Think about how you want your career to go. If you want to work for government, take the job. I think you have to be careful of being pigeon-holed. Sometimes once you start down a path, it can be difficult to get off.
MelD
I think you should stick with your current job. There’s no guarantee that the government job will turn into something permanent. On the other hand, if it’s an agency that does a variety of practice areas, you may be able to transition into a more interesting job if it becomes available. My government agency has a plethora of contract jobs in all departments and few seem to transition to permanent positions. Those who do go perm end up applying to other openings, which may or may not be in the same office.
Anonymous
I posted this in reply to your original comment on the other thread, but in case you didn’t see it I’ll repost.
I guess it comes down to a question of how risk-averse you are. Building up a business is risky but can pay off substantially. What you’re dealing with is what any small businesswoman would deal with. OTOH, government work is stable, but with the economy it’s entirely possible a hiring freeze or something could prevent you from getting the permanent job.
I think the first thing I’d do in your situation is explore the possibility of doing both. You say the government job is a 6-mo contract. Could you take that contract, and also keep your private clients for 6 months? It’d be a crazy 6 months, but in the end you’d be better equipped to decide which is the better long-term career path. If that’s not a possibility, I think there’s probably just as much risk involved in the government job (between the possibility of not getting a permanent offer and the possibility of hating the work) and if you can afford to, I’d stay with your current job.
martha
I’d worry about your ability to learn in either job: how much can you learn from the 3rd year or so you’re currently working with? Do you think you’ll learn more from whomever you’d be working for in the government?
Lyssa
Thank you so much to everyone who chimed in! I got a much more diverse set of opinions than I expected (which is a good thing!). On the whole, though, I don’t think that I saw anything that talked me out of what I was planning, which was to turn down the gov’t job. I think that it is a better long term plan.
Legal chief’s reasoning was pretty close to mine; in particular, she mentioned something I forgot to mention in my post, but had considered, which is that, while I probably could do both, I couldn’t do anything in court on the side, which is important to me. I would probably have a difficult time doing anything to build business, as well. Also, yesterday I spoke with another solo, who wants me to pick up some work from him on the side, which would help with the money situation (he’s got a more established practice), and I’ve gotten a few responses from connections who are offering me some help with the business planning aspects.
I can’t describe how great it is to have a sounding board like this. Even though there wasn’t anything close to a consensus, seeing the other arguments helped me think things through and come out more clearly. Something like this is too personal to post to something like facebook, but my husband can only give me so much feedback, you know? Love to you all.
Lincoln
When I graduated from law school I had opportunities with bigger law. However I talked to my friends who found them to be sweat shops. I had a boyfriend I wanted to marry and have kids with who was going to open up his own business. I took a job with a small firm and am now a partner. I get to do the legal work I want to do. I have a great life. I see my kids. I get to be involved in the community. I don’t get paid a lot, and like you as a partner waiting for the next check can be scary, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything. (This is not saying that sometimes I don’t look at the big law partners and think — why do they get all of the good work, I’m great, and I should make that much money — but envy is really unbecoming). In any event, while it is the scary choice — I’d stay where you are.
KateL
It’s cute and something I would buy if it were about 1-1.5″ longer in length (listed as 20 5/8″) Anyone have good sources for skirts that are 21-22″ in length? (Other than Talbots). I clicked J Crew’s tall section and noticed the suiting is jackets and pants only.
Anonymous K
It may be too long for what you’re looking for, but J. Crew’s Double Serge Pencil Skirt is 23 1/2″.
Anonymous K
Actually, most of their skirts are at least 21″. The skirts in the “suiting skirts” section seem to be 21″ or 22 1/2″.
L
I was just looking at a BR pencil skirt that is 23″ from center back. I have the same problem with skirts, a lot of them now are too short.
L
Sorry, the pencil skirt at BR is the tall size, not the regular.
http://bananarepublic.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=35288&vid=1&pid=762173&scid=762173002
KateL
Thanks to AnonymousK and L. I hadn’t checked BR for talls…
i'm nobody
Pendleton makes some great, longer wool pencil skirts.
Anonymous
What color top would you wear?
D
I had a similar skirt and its hard to tell what will look good. I just held up tops until I found a good fit – some things you wouldn’t predict looking good do! I say that if you like it, get it and compare with stuff in your closet. If you find enough stuff that goes well, keep.
AD
Just ordered this CE skirt over the weekend: http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3113894?origin=category&resultback=0
I looked at the J. Crew skirt, and thought the CE one looked less bulky and I actually liked the colors better. Also, it’s 21.5″, and has pockets. (Yes, I paid full price instead of stalking it until it went on sale as I normally do.)
ADS
Let us know how it fits – I’m currently stalking that skirt. :)
anonymous
D’oh!! Nordie’s site is down right now.
Parisienne
Love that kind of skirt that has a waistband that sits on the hip – so comfortable and flatterning.
Lyssa – take the job – build a resume – access a pension. Later on if you have kids you can always drop back to contract work and you will be in demand because of government experience.
kng
I noticed that kat suggested a smoother fabric top, i totally agree, but i’m wondering, what do you all think of a full on tweed suit? I have a similar suit (longer, pencil skirt + cropped jacket) in a red/black/brown tweed from benneton that i love, but i wonder if the full on tweed is a dated look (i’m 25, big law in nyc). obviously, I wouldn’t wear it to court, but for events and other wear i don’t hesitate
Lyssa
I think it depends on how heavy of a tweadyness it is. If the tweed is subtle, as in, you couldn’t really tell it was tweed from far away, it’s good, but if it’s a pretty heavy, rough looking fabric, a full suit tends towards overkill. (from the picture, I’d say the fabric in this skirt is borderline)
anon-ny
I have a full tweed winter suits (Benetton) and I’m in big law NYC and I have never given it a thought in terms of wearing it to court, client meetings, etc. I think it looks professional and is very warm in the ridiculously cold and dreary months of January and February. Of course mine is a black tweed so that might make it more subtle than what you are describing.
i'm nobody
i think it depends where you are. tweed in new york is one thing; tweed in london is another.
AIMS
i think it depends where you are. tweed in new york is one thing; tweed in london is another.
i'm nobody
tweed has a different, er, connotation in england than stateside. it’s for the older set, generally. matronly sportswear, almost.
PS
I love this JC skirt but am wondering if it has any room for curves… or is it such a tight pencil that it will be unflattering/inappropriate?? It looks fairly tight on the model and I worry with the hip waistband that it will just be straight down.
kng
jcrew is hit or miss, i have some great pencil skirts from that work with and flatter my curves, and others that i’ve tried on looked like i had been stuffed in, sizing up often helps, but not always
AIMS
Agree that it could be hit or miss.
But, I do have a similar type skirt from them from last year (or year before?) & I think it looks really nice on my standard hour glass figure.
Cat
Agree (from another hourglass) – I believe gigisgoneshopping(dot)blogspot has tried on a number of them IRL; she comments re: dart placement and fit, so you may try browsing over there as well.
PS
Wow, what an incredible blog…I can’t believe people have time for this!! But good to see the IRL pictures!
M
the double serge skirt is really nice although the waist could be a little narrower
Another Laura
Cat, thanks for the new index. I love it! (At least I think it’s new …) It should be very helpful.
M
FYI: REALLY cute patterned winter-y fabric pencil skirts at The Limited right now. And they’re all 30% off (or were on Monday at least).
E Anon
Ooh, I haven’t shopped at Limited for a long time, but these look very nice! Code 321 for another 20% off!
MJ
Thanks M and E Anon – I am getting some right now! You made my day :)
bag question
Oh I love tweed!I’m having a rubbish day so this defs made me feel a titchy bit better.
Little Lurker
[[I am distracted by the horrendous styling again — so much that I have a hard time picturing a work outfit to go with.]]
Thank you so much to everyone who offered me advice/consolation last week on my election loss for the board of my primary extracurricular, a large student organization. I did email the winner to congratulate them and you all were right: it did make me feel better. I am slowly getting accustomed to the idea that I’m growing out of the organization, and beginning to look for off-campus opportunities, as I will be graduating so soon.
To wit: a day after I lost the election, I was offered a chance to attend a conference in New Orleans next month as part of a student leadership delegation: the two-day conference will be attended by over 500 philanthropy and nonprofit organizations. Whee!!!! :) This is exactly the field I want to work in, so I’m super pumped.
A further dilemma, then: I jokingly mentioned to one of my advisers that I ought to print business cards beforehand. She was dead serious when she told me it was a good idea. I have no idea about business card etiquette: Corporettes, can you help me out?
What would I put on the card, since I don’t have a job title right now? Should I just list my name and university, class of 2011? How to design the card — is it a good idea to use colors and fonts, or keep it simple? How do I initiate a card-exchange with a professional who I hope might hire me?
Thanks so much — I’m so excited!
anon-ny
There were exactly two people in my law school class who had cards made as law students and they were the eager, gunner married couple. They were master networkers so I guess there is a lesson in that but from the practice side, I still think a card from a law student is a little over-eager. I know some schools actually give students the option to have official cards but I honestly don’t see the purpose. The best thing you can do is collect cards and be the one to make the followup call/email. But that is just my opinion. And if you do decide to make cards – keep it extremely simple. List your name, school and Class of 2011 or whatever with your contact information. I’d stay away from crazy fonts/logos/colors.
kellyn
Off topic, but reading the sentence about the “eager, gunner married couple” brought (rather instantly) to mind an image of the Salahis. Hahaha. Thank you, I needed that.
CFM
You are going to get different responses for this question I think. I am firmly in the no business cards for students. It just comes off as so pretentious to me. I would take business cards and follow up with the person in an email. That’s what you would do anyway right? Since you want the job, you should follow up, even if you did give them your business card. So in that case, there’s no point in giving the business cards. And if there’s even a few people that would be put off by it, I think its best not to do it.
Anon
I think it depends on your industry/school program. I did not know anyone in law school with business cards. In contrast, almost everyone in my s.o.’s PhD program has them, and is frequently asked for them at conferences/symposiums/etc.
CFM
The OP is in college, and I didn’t know anyone with them in college, but that is a good point perhaps its more common in other fields
ADS
My undergraduate college (a Seven Sisters school) prints cards for students. It’s becoming much more common, and I personally think it’s great. They have the name of the school, and then the student’s name, year, phone number, address, e-mail address, and major if they want.
Samantha
Business school (MBA) students have business cards ALL the time.
In my field of graduate school, everybody had cards as well (printed the year they were on the job market), to hand out at conferences and to potential employers.
MsZ
While I normally agree with anon – that students with cards tend to be gunners – I think that because you are part of a student delegation at a professional event where nearly everyone else is in the working world (at least that is how I read your post) justifies a *simple* card for this occasion. Name, College Class of 2011, phone number, email address. No logos or colors. Print it on actual cardstock – Vistaprint does a nice job. As for initiation – when it’s time for the conversation-ending, parting handshake, simply extend a card, smile, and shake the offeree’s hand. Good luck!
MsZ
blergh, bad grammar. sorry peeps.
anon
I would just say that if you do get business cards, make sure they look professional. Sometimes you can get them through the university, and they will have the university logo and look like the employee cards (and thus will likely look professional), so I would look into that. If you can’t get them through the university, get them done at Kinkos or OfficeMax or somewhere like that. It’s not all that expensive and they will likely look better than if you print them on your home printer.
During law school, one of the student organizations sold business cards as a fundraiser, and they really were not very professional-looking at all. As in, so bad that if a student gave me one of those cards now, I would really question their judgment as to how they are presenting themselves, and would hesitate to hire the person because of that.
Laura
Disclaimer: I’m a health psychologist and evaluator – so while in school and now for work I go to either research conferences or community NPO events.
I had student cards while in grad school for attending conferences etc. These were made through my school and had name, email, phone, expected year/degree.
To initiate a card-exchange (and I come from a research/NPO field) now and while attending events in school I’ll often say, “XYZ we’re talking about/you’re presenting on/organization you represent is really interesting and I’d love to follow up with you about it in more detail (and I’ll sometimes add “but I don’t want to monopolize your time”) do you have a card or contact information?”
Having been the speaker/NPO person at these types of events, it’s totally the norm to hand out business cards and to get a collection of them back. Also grab handouts etc. the person has. I always write down what I was talking to the person about and where I met them on the back of the card and then send out a follow up email a few days after the event – either asking for a copy of their presentation or just commenting again on how interested in their organization I am. If you’re doing this to look for job prospects, and it feels right, I would be up front and say something like, “once I graduate I’d be really interested in working for your organization/at an organization similar to yours – is there someone I could pass my CV/resume to?” When representing the research NPO I was at for three years at conferences I was always happy to get student contacts and it was flattering to have someone express interest in what I do – esp. if the NPO issue (in my case, healthcare research to eliminate disparities in care) was something they seemed really jazzed about.
Anon
Laura,
Thanks for pitching in! I’m doing a PhD in health policy and was glad to see someone speak from that general field since I’m “new” to it. Plus, I hadn’t heard of health psychology before! Are there specific graduate degrees in this? Or is it kinda like a Masters in Public Health, then a Phd in Psych?
Laura
Hi Anon-
I have an MA in applied psychology and evaluation (and am member of the AEA) and my work is a marriage of health psych and evaluation work (for the past five years I’ve written grants for, coordinated and done applied health care research and intervention evaluation – foundation work, local bottom up work with CHCs, PBRN work, NIH grants, etc. and I also teach a graduate class on applied program evaluation at a local uni). There are some PhD programs I have my eye on (esp. the PhD in Health Promotion Sciences at Claremont Graduate University where I got my MA) for after my husband finishes his grad work. But def check out health psychology – there’s an APA journal and a lot of resources (just google health psych). I happen to focus on more of the community and critical end – looking at health disparties in los angeles – a lot of the research we do ends up informing the policy end of health care.
Anon
Thanks for responding :)
I will look into it for sure! Your work sounds very interesting!
AnonAnonAnon
Wow, my law school requires business cards for every 1L. Yeah, I stillhave about 100 of them, but at networking events, people did ask for them and I was happy to have them.
Bonnie
I’ve got to admit that whenever law students give me business cards, they promptly go in the trash. Even if you meet a potential employer at a function, it’s up to you to follow up. I would not expect too many employers to call you.
AnonAnonAnon
They did call me, and I have a job after law school through one of the contacts I met at networking event in March. But I’m glad to know that you just throw them away, I don’t have time to waste on people like you anyway.
sittininla
yay :) congrats.
martha
Where is the civility on this blog going? : (
Anonymous
I’m with Martha – I don’t think you should have jumped all over Bonnie for that. She probably works somewhere with a standard hiring procedure, and it’s a good perspective to share in this discussion.
hmm
I forget whether you are an undergrad or in a professional program. While I thought they were a bit much in law school, many students had them (our student bar association did professional looking ones as a fundraiser) and I don’t think folks in the legal community judged them too harshly-it just made sense. But If you are young and an undergrad, they might seem a little gunner-esque. But to each his or her own!
Eponine
I much prefer to receive a business card from a student than to receive a scribbled name and email address on a scrap of paper. Hence, you should get a business card. Name, contact info, and J.D. Candidate 2011 is all you need to put. Keep it plain and simple – no colors and fonts. You can get cards for free/cheap from vistaprint.com, if you didn’t know that, although you could also just make a limited number on a laser printer at school.
Eponine
I see that you’re not a JD candidate, but my point is the same, just write BA Candidate or Class of 2011 or whatever.
Anon
I am a law student with a grad degree in education and I’ve been responsible for supervising undergrads. I like getting a plain business card from students — nothing ridiculous — because it shows me that you’re organized and interested in learning how to be professional. However, if you do this, please practice finding a card and handing it to someone at home so that when you give them out you’re comfortable with how casual that ritual can be. :)
Been there, done that...
I would get some inexpensive, but professional cards, through Vista Print. As someone who often goes to career services events at my undergrad alma mater, there is nothing worse than talking to a student and trying to find a pen and cocktail napkin to take down a name and email address. I try to help students so I often email them local events or articles they might be interested in.
As you have read, some people will throw them away; some will frown on them. However, there are others who will love them, like me. Ignore the naysayers. Get simple cards (white card stock, black lettering) with your name, ABC College Class of 2011 underneath your name. Add a phone number and an email address.
Obviously, as a soon-to-be grad, you are going to the conference in part to meet people and find leads to gainful employment. Get business cards. Hand out some business cards. When you get back, send a quick email saying you really liked meeting them at the conference, love their organization, and would love to chat some more (if that is possible).
Enjoy the conference!
AnAnon
A somewhat related question:
Lawyer, work in-house, happy with job not looking to leave.
Thinking about starting a small side-business (weekends only). It would not interfere with my legal job (I have no billable requirement, the few times I have come in on a weekend I am the only one here, we aren’t supposed to work from home – it truly is a 40-50 hour week job).
Obviously I would not make phone calls/send emails re: side business during my primary job business hours.
However, I am a little paranoid that people will think “wow, she has a lot of time on her hands, she must not be working hard enough!” . Silly to me as everyone here has weekends free and whether I choose to watch movies, cook, or work a side business is somewhat irrelevant. But I don’t want to jeopardize anything at my current job. Thoughts? Am I being overly paranoid?
AnAnon
P.S. – Side job is in an unrelated industry and my employment agreement only prohibits other employment if there is a potential for conflict.
Big Firm Lawyer
well, how would anyone know about your side business?
Whatever your side business is, could you frame it as a hobby? “Oh, this weekend I did some baking/worked out/went to yard sales/tutored some neighborhood kids”? No one need know you’re making money off of it. I’d keep that part quiet lest anyone think you’re looking for a way out.
AnAnon
At some point, I will likely develop a website to advertise and showcase my side business. I don’t know that I’d have my last name on it, or a picture of me, but I’d hate for someone I work with to find out about it this way and think I was hiding something. I really have ZERO desire to make it a full-time thing, I just figured extra money from a hobby I love is never a bad thing :)
KateL
Keep it completely separate (and if possible not even a topic of conversation at your day job) and I don’t see an issue. My friend works at our favorite local yarn store in addition to her regular salaried/benefits job as program manager.
The only downfall is to keep it from bleeding over – as a counterpoint my trainer is on the sell-side at a boutique research firm. She admits at times, it is hard to keep the two separate.
D
Threadjack!
Help! I’m going to an event where a former SCOTUS judge will be speaking, at my law school. We will be in a room that seats about 300 people. I don’t plan on getting up to ask questions and can happily sit in the back of the room.
The problem is that earlier that day I’m doing a charity walk and will not have time to change. I’ll be wearing black sweatpants, a plain tshirt, a hoodie, and running sneakers. Is this still ridiculously inappropriate given that I will not actually be meeting the judge? I don’t have time to go home to shower and change, and I’m wondering whether it would be worth it to bring a change of clothes to school (which would be a hassle for a variety of reasons).
I just don’t want to be disrespectful.
Anon
“Is this still ridiculously inappropriate given that I will not actually be meeting the judge?”
Yes.
Bring clothes to school and change.
D
That’s what I thought, but I was hoping I was wrong. Thanks =)
Anon
Sure :) Hope you have great weather for your walk!
cardiganista
I think it depends what kind of event it is. If it’s a lunchtime lecture event and you’re sitting in the back of a lecture hall, I’d say the sweatpants are fine.
If it’s an after-school/happy hour wine and cheese or really billed as a much more important event, then no sweatpants.
CFM
Do you have a locker or could you bring a backpack? You don’t need to bring a suit or anything, bring a business casual outfit. You just never know, maybe you end up in the elevator with them (or a dean, professor, etc)
D
Well, my locker is FULL because my schedule is both early and late classes so I’m doing all my work at school so all my books and stuff are there – there is NO room to leave anything (yes, I carry my jacket around). And if I bring anything with me, I have to carry it for the entire walk which would be really, really annoying. Thus me trying to get out of it :)
Anon
So…can you bring a few books home on Friday night for the weekend and leave some clothes in their place?
D
That’s what I’m thinking I’m going to do.
E Anon
I actually would say you’ll probably be fine if it’s a lecture hall type setting. I’d imagine most will be very casual in jeans, etc. unless there is an opportunity to meet & greet afterwards.
martha
ditto E Anon
JessC
Just a thought to keep in mind: A sitting SCOTUS justice came to visit my school. On the second day of his visit, he did a large lecture/question and answer session. As students if we wanted to attend, we were REQUIRED to wear at least business formal.
Check what your school says as far as expected attire. My guess is that they expect everyone to be in suits – and even if they don’t ask you to leave for wearing sweats, you’ll stick out like a sore thumb and probably get some looks from faculty/administrators.
kellyn
Yeah, same here. During law school, I had the opportunity to be in the same room as 3 sitting SCOTUS justices, and we would never have been allowed near the rooms had we not been in full suits.
Just change at school. Find a way to leave your stuff there (in an office, perhaps? Any buddies in the faculty secretary office? Anyone?) and change.
Anon
And FYI, just so you look “in the know,” he/she is not a “Judge” but rather a “Justice.” And if it’s SO’C, lucky you. She’s delightful!
WmAnon
If this is for Justice O’Conner at W&M, I can give feedback from having been. She speaks at the school to the 1Ls every year and generally people dress nicely. Most people went business but not formal. I don’t think anyone wore suits my year (except the few students who attended a meeting with her before) but everyone looked nice (think slacks and tie optional for guys and most girls with slacks or pencil skirt and a nice top).
Also don’t be afraid to ask a question. She is really awesome and gives the most amazing and honest answers.
WmAnon
also, this was just a guess since I know she goes to W&M every year. I would assume it would be similar other places
anon
O’Connor with an “o”. I clerked for her, and I will say that at least until she hit about 78, I never even saw her in public in pants — skirts and dresses only. I can’t even imagine being in her presence in sweatpants, unless we were working out.
Eponine
Yes, it is disrespectful to wear your gym clothes to a speech by any distinguished guest, let alone a SCOTUS justice. You need to change. And even if the justice doesn’t see you (and s/he might; SDOC likes to mingle), your classmates and professors will.
Anonymous K
I am late to the party, but I just wanted to chime in and say I’d go with at least business casual, as others are suggestig. I’ve had the opportunity to hear sitting justices speak on two different occasions as part of a small group (about 50 undergrad students) in a room at the Supreme Court. IIRC, the “standard” dress for the female students (myself included) seemed to be a sheath dress with a matching blazer, a pencil skirt and blouse, or a pencil skirt and blazer (though not necessarily matching). It was not quite full-suit business formal, but it was a step above what I currently wear in my business casual workplace. Hopefully this helps!
M
Styling advice please? My (new) mother-in-law invited to an event she is involved in which is part fashion show/part concert/part magazine launch. I have no idea what to wear. She told me to wear something “hip”, but I am not a very “hip” person (outside my sheath dress collection, my closet is full of jeans, t-shirts and grandpa sweaters).
I don’t want to stick out like sore thumb at this event, so I feel like I should wear something semi-chic, but I don’t want to waste a ton of money on something I won’t wear again. So, I was considering either (i) renting a dress from rent the runway or (ii) buying an LBD and a nice jacket (sequined or something similar if sequins are lame). I would hope to be able to wear the LBD again. With that said, does anyone out there have any suggestions for what styles/trends I should look for? I’d prefer not to wear anything short as I have kind of thick legs, but other than that I’m open to other suggestions (I’m usually a size 6/8).
Sidenote/vent: my MIL is a former model, so is her daughter, and they both have closets full of awesome designer clothes which are far too small for me to borrow. Sigh.
JessC
An LBD sounds pretty appropriate. I would try to jazz it up with some statement jewelry (think bigger, chunkier pieces) and fun shoes.
KateL
Ditto to JessC’s advice – glam up the accessories and be yourself.
Now for the pep talk: This sounds like one of those situations that could really make you crazy if you let it. You may pick up some tips, new places to shop, and styling ideas from MIL/SIL but don’t feel like you have make yourself over. Clearly your husband married you for who you are, not who they are. Good luck!
Bonnie
Definitely skip the sequined jacket. Is the even in the evening? If so, a LBD with a staetment necklace (you can find something unique and inexpensive on etsy) and awesome shoes would work. If the event is earlier in the day, try a wrap dress with some killer shoes.
RLG
Dear M,
Sometimes I find that specificity helps. Try the LBD with one of these necklaces: http://www.anthropologie.com/anthro/catalog/productdetail.jsp?subCategoryId=&id=18364273&catId=SHOPSALE-JEWELRY&pushId=SHOPSALE-JEWELRY&popId=SHOPSALE&sortProperties=&navCount=280&navAction=top&fromCategoryPage=true&selectedProductSize=&selectedProductSize1=&color=040&isSubcategory=&isProduct=true&isBigImage=&templateType=E or http://www.anthropologie.com/anthro/catalog/productdetail.jsp?subCategoryId=&id=040088&catId=SHOPSALE-JEWELRY&pushId=SHOPSALE-JEWELRY&popId=SHOPSALE&sortProperties=&navCount=280&navAction=top&fromCategoryPage=true&selectedProductSize=&selectedProductSize1=&color=015&isSubcategory=&isProduct=true&isBigImage=&templateType=E and these shoes: http://piperlime.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=50524&vid=1&pid=812498&scid=812498002.
I like the idea of grey pumps because they could work stylishly with navy or black.
I hope this helps!
Eponine
Could you and your MIL go shopping together? That might help you get in her good graces, and then you’d be sure to wear something she approves of.
M
Thanks for all the suggestions! This was really helpful!
(also, thanks for the pep talk, KateL! I am obviously stressing about this and it helped to read that.)
emulaw
I need some tips for staying busy at work… I know, it’s not fair to complain about NOT being busy, but since I have to bill hours and account for the hours I don’t bill, it’s a problem. It’s not enough to simply look busy.
I am a new associate at a small office with three partners and two other associates. I simply do not have enough work to keep me busy. In order to fix this situation, each time I am between projects, I go to each partner and let them know I am available. Two weeks ago, I sent them an email saying, generally, a) that I needed some more things to work on and b) asked if they could advise me how best to spend my time when between projects in order to best utilize my (and their) time.
I have read legal publications, studied up on some areas of law with which I need to be more familiar, etc. I feel like my time doing that is essentially running out. I certainly don’t want to give the impression that I’m not needed – the other two associates are busy, so I should be able to be busy, too. But it’s hard for me to make work when no one will give me any.
Thoughts?
Anon
I know this sounds terrible, but maybe spend some of your time looking for a new job? They don’t seem to have enough work to keep you around, or for whatever reason don’t give it to you. I think that’s a sign of a problem unlikely to resolve itself.
Kit
Ask other attorneys if you can sit in on client meetings and shadow them at hearings, so you can learn from watching them. This will fill your time and show that you are eager to learn. They would not have hired you if they didn’t think they needed you. If the other associates have been there longer, they probably have ongoing projects and clients keeping them busy. Give it time and the work will come.
emulaw
I like the idea of sitting in on things, but most everything happens out of town, and no clients come to the office. I know they think they need me – they thought long and hard about it before making a hiring decision, so I am assuming that it has to pick up at some point. The days are just sooooo loooong.
v
Did you get any kind of response to your e-mail a couple of weeks ago or did it just go ignored?
Writing articles is the traditional way to pass time at my firm when people aren’t busy; you might see if someone has an ongoing one they could use help with or an idea in your practice area that they’re happy to cede you.
anon-ny
what about pro bono? Your local bar and/or legal aid should have a variety of pro bono matters available that you can take on. You can gain valuable experience, meet the ABA challenge and show you take initiative and you aren’t just sitting around collecting a pay check. Not sure what your firm’s policy or practice is on pro bono but you will likely need to get one of the partners to agree to supervise. This can give you an opportunity to make the partner look good as well by allowing him/her to add the pro bono matter to their credits with minimal work – same idea as an article.
Carrie
Haha at the styling again. Those socks are work appropriate if you work for Keebler.
I saw some skirts similar to that one at the J. Crew store the other day. They looked promising, but I figured that they were guaranteed to go on clearance in my area.