Weekend Open Thread

634 Comments

1. Threadjack: I have my last ever law school final in a few days and I feel so happy! I know the bar exam craziness will start in a few weeks, but still – it is so good to know I am done with school. It just makes me feel so optimistic about life in general.

   1. Huzzah! I remember that feeling. Bar study was boring and frustrating at times, but I’d take that over school any day. I even thought that in the last 3 weeks of bar study. Hated.school.so.much.

   2. Congratulations! I took my last final on Monday and have been enjoying my time off before the bar craziness. Pop a bottle of champagne (or cheap Processo like I did) and celebrate! :)

      1. Yeyyy, congrats Miriam! I will celebrate later this week. It’ s not that I did not like law school, but the whole student-thing gets a bit too much after 3 years.

2. The law school question (and overwhelming negative response) has me thinking — what other types of grad schools are just a waste of time/money and (apparently) an enormous pool of regret in this market? Specifically, I’m planning to get my MBA (with I would guess around $90K debt), and while I think it’s a good career move, I would love to hear from those who have been there – is it worth it?

   Is this problem with law school a specific problem with an oversaturation of lawyers in a shrinking market, or is it a larger problem with grad school as a whole? Are there too many people looking to graduate school, period, these days as everyone gets a college degree?

   1. I am graduating from law school, so cannot speak about MBAs and other graduate programs in detail. But my friend, who is getting an MBA at a highly-ranked business school told me that it was not as easy getting a job now as it used to be. As I understand, there are two big job areas – consulting and banking. Apparently, the internships were fewer this year and there was more competitions among students to get the same internship opportunities. (I assume that getting an internship is important for getting a job at the same company after graduation, but I may be wrong here). But one thing is certain, as with law school, it is probably not worth it incurring such debt unless you go to one of the top-rated MBA programs like Harvard, Wharton, Sloan, Kellogg, etc.

   2. My understanding is an MBA right now is only a good investment if you want to be a high-end consultant or executive (and then only if you can go to Harvard etc.) Or if you can get someone else to pay or if you have a very specific career goal in mind. But, other people’s opinion’s may vary.

      1. I think your RIGHT generaly, but it is BEST to get a CPA degree, like my ex has. He worked alot to get it but can be DRUNK and still hold his job b/c he has that cridentiel they can NOT take away.

         I recomend going for the CPA degree, even if Alan has one alraedy. Fooey on Alan!

         On my own ISSUE, I met a guy who is a CAPTAIN in the milatary (the Army).

         He wants to DATE me.

         I am not sure if I want to date someone in the milatary. Does anyone have expereince with guy’s in the milatary? Does it mater if it is NOT the Army?

         If he goes away do I have to stay with him? What are the rule’s here? PS I did NOT do anything with him yet,and he want’s to SEE me SUNDAY.

         1. I think MBA is good right now. Better if you can get an employer to pay it though. All the recent MBAs I know got hired between $80,000-$120,000 at big companies or start ups in Seattle from the top local school with bonuses, equity, etc. Granted many of them hate the work, but they mostly think they know more than they do:)

         2. Point of clarification: he’s in the Army, or NOT the Army?

            Either way, make sure you let us know how it goe’s tomorrow!

            1. “In sum: she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, and even her delivery is wrong, but she writes with such life force I can’t look away. This naivete, plus knowing-ness, makes her The Fool to my intuition.”

               Brilliant. I just discovered ELLENWatch. Thank you. :)

         3. Perhaps too much prejudice on my part from personal experience, but my take on it is that guys in the military are much more given to domestic violence than the general population. And they have guns. Be careful.

         4. Give him a chance. What’s the problem in having coffee or whatever? It’s just a first date. You’re not getting married to the dude. Let’s wait to count chickens until they hatch.

   3. If you have a job and you’re thinking to boost your marketability with an MBA, I’d say go for it. If you don’t and you think an MBA will help you get a job, I’d be supremely hesitant with that. In NYC at least, it seems like everyone has an MBA.

   4. Is an MBA valued in your industry? It is in mine (consulting), balances out my social sciences undergrad (history & political science) and it puts me in a higher pay bracket for my industry. However, my Project Manager Professional certification differentiates me and prospective employers specifically note that I have my PMP and say nothing about my MBA.

      I think if you can afford to take the time off to go to a top school, definitely consider it. But, I also think Ruby makes an excellent point about getting your employer to cover the tuition. There are some very good schools with evening and or Executive MBA programs (Georgetown, UVA, etc) and you work and attend school on evenings/weekends, generally working through the program as part of a cohort. I think in this economy this might be a better option because you’ll have a job during school and you’ll have a job after graduation. Sure, there might not be a salary bump unless you’re in an executive program, but at least you’ll still be employed while you look for new opportunities.

3. I’m thinking of trying out the fertility awareness tracking described in Taking Charge of Your Fertility. (Not TTC, just trying to get a sense of what’s normal for me.) Anyone have a good suggestion for a thermometer to use daily?

   1. I have heard many people say this worked like a charm anecdotally, but my OB said it doesn’t hold up scientifically/ isn’t reliable indicator. Just fyi.

      1. I’ve done it for well over a decade, first to learn, then to get pregnant, then as birth control. I have a pink digital thermometer from the drugstore, in the same aisle as tampons and such. The author has some stories about skeptical doctors who don’t fully understand her method; wonder where the disconnect is. Maybe it doesn’t work for everyone, but if it does, it’s free, natural, and involves no medication. Lots to love.

   2. Yeah, not sure why your OB is a skeptic, but I did FAM for years (to achieve and to avoid pregnancy) and it was pretty damned accurate – the [redacted] sign of impending ovulation, then a spike in temp after ovulation – all lined up with distinctive cramps when I ovulated and with the conception of my two kids. Many women also use those tests (of your saliva, iirc) that indicate precisely when you’re ovulating and find it meshes with FAM.

      [shrugs]

      I used an ordinary thermometer, whatever was at the drugstore, and learned quickly to keep the chart and a pencil in my bedside table.

4. More Magazine sent me a renewal notice. The envelope has “Second Alert” written on the front in large red letters. The same envelope has a window pane through which I can read my name and address and my account number and expiration. Without even opening the envelope, I can see both the “Second Alert” notice AND the fact that my subscription does not end until March 2013. Next year. This comports with my own records, which indicate that my subscription ends in March 2013.

   What’s the end game for the publisher here? Catch me without my own records to indicate that my subscription is paid for another year? OK, but I can read that very information in your renewal notice (without even opening the envelope). Trick me into thinking that I need to renew now, even though it doesn’t expire for another year? What does the publisher get out of that? It won’t start sending me two magazine a month; it will just tack my new year onto the end of my current one, so it doesn’t save any money there. And what a waste of money for the envelopes and the postage!

   Anyone work in publishing care to explain this?

   I don’t mean to pick on More, which I love. All the magazines do this; I just happen to have the More one in my hand right now.

   1. I think the point is to create a false sense of urgency and lock you in for another year. If they can get you to commit, they’ve gotten another year of your eyes on their ads, which is key for their bottom line. It is really annoying, though, and I always think the same thing when publishers try to pull this on me!

      1. My guess (based on a tangential connection with the way things worked in my publishing-adjacent career) is that it’s useful for them for ad sales purposes – I believe a lot of magazine ad sales are done a long way in advance (ie they’ll send out a “this is our upcoming year’s worth of issues” to past ad-buyers), so when they’re trying to sell 2014 ad space in 2013, they’ll want to have locked-in subscribers to point to. The earlier they can get you on that list, the better.

   2. Right. They want you to subscribe now for 2014 so they can plan. Same motivation as “Vote Early” initiatives.

5. There’s a department in my agency (it’s within my organizational division) that I would like to laterally move to. I sent my resume over a few months ago when there was an internal job posting, however the hiring manager wrote back to me and said that although they had the posting, they didn’t have permission to hire anyone at the time because of budget reasons, but she would let me know if things changed. The posting remained up for some time, and now I noticed that it was pulled. I cannot express how badly I want to move to this department. I’m not sure if I should email follow up, introduce myself? I literally know no one in this department, but I’d like to find a way to network my way in so if the position does open, I have a better shot. Ideas?

   1. I would mosey on over there and casually introduce myself, and, if possible, explain why I want to move there. I recently did this myself and am waiting to hear back (although I’m cautiously optimistic). From their perspective, an internal hire is much less risky than an external one. Assuming they don’t need someone with extremely specific experience and are willing to spend gobs to get that experience, I’d think you’d be a great candidate.

      1. This is what I’m leaning toward doing… and I do have the specific experience! I’ve had great luck in the past getting positions by just putting myself out there in similar ways. Good luck in your move as well!

6. I have the Kentucky Derby coverage on mute while I listen to the Beastie Boys as a tribute to MCA. A strange pairing? Perhaps . . .

   1. like

7. I’m posting to get an opinion from people who might’ve been through professional or law school, or who have lived with other young professionals. I’m in my first year of law school, and I don’t think my roommate, another 1L, has cleaned the bathroom ever, or ever swept the kitchen floor. I clean every 2-3 weeks when things start to get noticeable and unbearable. I have also cleaned before we have parties at our apartment, and whenever she catches me in the act, she comments, “Oh, I was going to do that.” It seems like too much of a coincidence that every time she’s going to clean, I just so happen to do it right before she gets to it. She doesn’t say thank you either. She cleans her dishes, but not very well. I’ve stopped re-washing her stuff with visible cheese or other chunks left on it and now just avoid using the dishes she usually uses. She also kind of makes passive aggressive comments to me, and whenever I say anything about school to her, she tries to negate what I’ve said, or to make herself sound better.

   1. I should add that she’s not overwhelmed with school any more than I am. We both were in the top 25% of our class after first semester, so I don’t know why she’s so lazy with housework, or so competitive with me.

   2. I am a young professional and live with young professionals. What’s most important is communication – she’s not going to know waht she is doing is bothering you unless you tell her. You passive aggressively cleaning up after her and letting things build as you get more and more annoyed won’t help, as she may even not know there’s a problem to deal with.

      You need to say something friendly but pointed like, “Hey, I feel like we’ve been letting the cleaning slide around this place and that when there’s vacuuming and sweeping, I’m the one that ends up doing it. How do you feel about putting together a chore schedule we can both live with?” or if you notice the mess is building, “Hey, it’s getting pretty gross in here. I vacuumed last time, so could you do it this time?”

      1. I’m wondering why she would think it’s acceptable to never clean the bathroom that you share. It seems really odd and gross to me. I don’t passively aggressively clean. I just clean like I believe a decent adult should.

         1. Because you keep cleaning it when it gets dirty? And maybe in college she never had to clean a bathroom since it was communal, and at home, her mom did it for her? And when it starts to get visibly dirty, you clean it so she doesn’t bother with it?

            Passive aggressive was the wrong choice of words, but the fact is – if you keep cleaning and never express an issue with doing so, you can’t get mad at her for never magically realizing that you want her to clean. You need to use your words and tell her so.

            1. That is true, but I wish she would say thanks instead of saying she was going to do it. Next time the bathroom looks really dirty I think I’ll suggest it to her. I guess I just had really good roommates in college where one of us generally cleaned the bathroom once a week.

               She might snap at me or make fun of me if I mention it to her, since when I said good morning to her this morning at 11:30am, she decided to debate with me whether or not it was morning…. law students.

            2. Also, last week when the kitchen sink drain finally got completely clogged (it had been steadily draining slower), she decided not to help me with it at all, so I had to help the building caretaker and drive to go get supplies. She didn’t say thanks for that either. She kind of blamed the issue on me by saying she never puts anything down the drain (when I’ve witnessed her try to wash chunks of raw chicken down our drain with no disposal). Then after I had worked with the caretaker on the issue for a matter of hours, she decides to tell me I was doing things wrong, even though I followed the instructions on the bottle of Drain-0. sigh. sorry for the rant.

            3. don’t worry about it, this is a place for ranting ;o) but yes, you were lucky with your last roommate, it’s usually not that easy to have things be equal without effort. Sorry you’re dealing with this!

         2. so, this took me maannnnyyy years to learn, but people have different threshholds for cleanliness, and mean different things by words like ‘clean’ and ‘dirty’. I *finally* learned after many many bad living situations, that you really have to be specific and upfront about these things when choosing roommates, and before they become problems.

            Some people don’t really care how clean their bathroom or kitchen are. I cannot live with those people. ;o) but there are other people that could live with them that wouldn’t mind.

            The only solution I found was that I had to only live with people that also openly acknowledged they were clean freaks, and I would only live with people who would agree to a cleaning schedule before we even moved in together. Plus, I always had detailed conversations during the roommate interview about what clean means. It’s a lot of work, and kind of a pain, but as someone with a (very) low dirtiness threshold, it was necessary.

            In the situation you are currently in, it will be more difficult. You can sit down with her and say that you would like the place to be cleaner than it has been, would she agree to a chore schedule, and if she says yes, make one that has you both cleaning equally. But, it is likely she won’t agree to that, or she’ll say yes and then not follow through, because she has shown that her threshold for cleaning is higher than yours. If that is the case, I think your only option will be to either: learn to live with things a little more dirty than you would like (and therefore clean only as much as you feel like), or accept that you will do a lot more cleaning, in order to keep the place the way you like it, and let go of any expectations for her behavior. Or, move out. Which is what I did. A few times actually, till I finally figured it out.

            But, maybe you can work something out with her. Good luck! I know how frustrating it is to feel like you’re doing all the work, I hope it works out! ;o)

            1. Zora has great advice. After watching my daughter pick college room-mates for the past three years, I think that roommies should be on the same page and same level before moving in. “Am i a control freak” OP- you aren’t a control freak but she may view you that way while you can view her as being clean-challenged. Both of you can be seen by the other as passive-aggressive because she feels guilty and you feel like she is taking advantage of you. You may need to find a new roomy.

            2. I have lived with young professional roommates (before law school) and we did discuss cleaning responsibilities ahead of time. This is key. You need to talk to her about it and see what happens.

               I second everything that zora said. Don’t feel compelled to make too many compromises. If you feel that things won’t work out, you should just find a new roommate ( I don’t know what your lease situation is, so this may be easier said than done). Law school is stressful enough. You need to feel good about your place and the person with whom you are sharing it. In fact, this may even help you keep your relationship with her on better terms (not that you’ve said it’s bad). Living with someone with whom you are not compatible can put even the closest friends at odds. Good luck!

   3. Just find a convenient time for both of you to sit down and discuss apartment issues. You need to be careful about seeming like your springing things on her–don’t tell her you need to talk about cleaning now, set up a time to do so, and don’t ask her if she can clean the bathroom today/in 2 hrs/etc. I would also look into moving to a situation that you will enjoy, although it would be good to make this one more bearable until you can move.

      I once lived in a house with 3 others that were much less concerned with overall house cleanliness than I was, but they could tell it upset me and cleaned because they wanted to do something nice for me. I think those kinds of roommates are few and far between, though.

      1. That’s what I’m worried about, that she isn’t the type of nice person like that who will clean to make me feel better. I feel like she must know already that I clean and she doesn’t and it seems like she’s already purposefully ignoring the fact that I like things clean. Would it be absurd to ask to agree to a cleaning schedule for every two weeks? I feel like most reasonable people would think that’s a small amount of cleaning to deal with, but I don’t know with her.

         1. “She must know already…” “purposefully ignoring”

            I’m a clean freak and feel your pain, but don’t don’t don’t fall down that rabbit hole. You don’t know her motives, and assigning ill intent to her will accomplish nothing but greater resentment in you.

            Many people say they simply don’t see dirt. I don’t understand that, but you’ll get along much better with her if you believe it and just deal with solving the problem rather than maligning her character.

   4. I’ve been on both sides of this – I’d usually take care of my dishes (and had a roommate who didn’t, and it was GROSS), but I wasn’t terribly diligent about sweeping, vacuuming, etc. Fortunately I haven’t shared a bathroom in years. I think you may need to talk to your roommate about setting up a schedule for when these things will or should happen instead of just assuming that she will do it because it’s what a “decent adult should do.” She likely has a higher tolerance for mess than you do.

      1. Also, try not to make it about whether she’s “nice” enough to clean up because it would make you feel better. This likely isn’t about you, personally, as much as it’s about the two of you having different standards.

         1. If I did talk to her, I wouldn’t say anything about her being mean, and I would also try to avoid saying I’ve cleaned considerably more than her. However, I guess I am trying to assess how receptive she would be. It seems like she HAS to know that I like things cleaner, so ergo it seems automatically disrespectful of her to NEVER pick up a cleaning tool. I mean, not even once? To me it seems like that has to be on purpose, although I admit I can’t understand the perspective of living with pee stains on the toilet or large crumbs on the kitchen floor for weeks.

            Before I was the type of person who cleaned, I felt bad freshman year of college when I realized I was the messier roommate, and that my other roommate had been dusting and vacuuming the whole time. She cleaned when I wasn’t in the room, so I didn’t really know about it. When I found out I felt awful, even though I had a higher threshold for messiness then. This is why I can’t understand my current roommate, because she’s notice my cleaning and instead made remarks that she was “going to do that later.” If she see’s me cleaning the kitchen, why doesn’t she eventually clean the bathroom. It would only make sense if she was telling the truth. Are there any people with a higher messiness tolerance that could explain this?

            1. It probably truly doesn’t cross her mind. It’s also possible that she has a higher tolerance for mess and she doesn’t see why she has to change her preference just because you are cleaning. It’s not like she’s agreed with you that she will clean on a schedule.

               As an aside, I do think it’s passive aggressive for you to clean, expect her to notice you cleaning, not say anything to her about it, and then get mad that she’s not cleaning. At the very least, it’s not the most adult, mature way to handle the situation.

               Not to be too harsh, but you are going to be a lawyer. A major part of your career will be having awkward conversations with people who might not react like you want them to (opposing counsel, clients, partners, assistants). Now is a great time to start practicing this. Just talk to her about it without getting angry or accusing her of anything.

            2. Why are you trying to figure our her motives? Just talk to her and make a schedule and be done with it. No need to make it an emotional thing.

            3. I am one of those people that just doesn’t see things as messy. In my younger years, I would have seen you cleaning and thought “why is she cleaning again, it’s not even messy yet!” Then I would assume you were doing it for stress relief or because you enjoyed cleaning and I would turn back to my tv show.

            4. four or five responses have either directly or indirectly told you: many people with higher mess tolerance DON’T THINK LIKE YOU and therefore these actions could have benign motivations (or lack thereof). yet you keep trying to convince us and yourself that the problem is attributable to a defect in her character.
               maybe she’s doing it on purpose, or maybe these things never occurred to her. insisting on believing the former will only make this harder. focus your energy on making a workable cleaning plan together. the clearer and more detailed, the better, but you’re going to have to lower your expectations. it doesn’t get better after talking to her, make plans to move.
               btw i don’t mean to be harsh. i’ve been in your position several times with good friends as roommates. it sucks. in answer to your ?, as far as i can tell, the “messy person viewpoint” is out of sight, out of mind:
               come home, use kitchen, bathroom, etc., nothing new… (whereas everywhere you turn you see “put me away!” “wipe me down!” “sweep me!” screaming at you so you can’t relax until you do it) doesn’t see any dirt –> doesn’t think about cleaning
               sees you cleaning, “oh yeah! cleaning is a chore that exists!”
               but doesn’t see you cleaning –> cleaning doesn’t exist
               so maybe propose a visual reminder, like a calendar on the fridge with a schedule, or a regular roommate cleaning date. something that doesn’t leave it up to her to remember to clean, because she probably won’t.

            5. I think nb and Blonde Lawyer have it right here.

               I, like Blonde Lawyer, am one of those “don’t see it don’t care” kind of people. My husband is not. I do try to pick things up, for him, because I love him. I probably wouldn’t necessarily do the same for a roommate. We also had to discuss that if something’s bugging him, he’s got to say something before his head explodes, because I’m not ignoring whatever it is on purpose, I just don’t notice it or care about it.

               It actually stresses ME out when people are cleaning all the time. I just want to say “jeez, sit the F*&$ down already, you’re making me crazy”. I don’t ‘appreciate’ all their ‘hard work’. You may be as irritating to her and how SHE likes her space as she is to you. It’s one thing I’ve noticed with ‘neat freaks’, they seem to be under the impression that there aren’t ‘conflicting ideas of what’s clean enough’, but rather that THEY do it right and you do it WRONG and if you weren’t such an idiot you’d want to do it their way. That’s sort of your attitude here. Your method of living isn’t somehow automatically more valid than hers because it’s yours.

               You guys do need to come to some agreement about how common areas will be kept. That will probably involve stepping it up from her, and chilling the heck out from you. You can’t demand it be to ‘your standards’ when it’s her turn to do it. Your way isn’t better, it’s just yours. She does need to be respectful enough to mind the common areas, but you have to sit down like a rational adult and say “I see we have different ideas of what’s clean, so I’d like us to agree to a schedule for picking up the common areas and what we will do when we do it”. Then write it out and post it on the fridge, and quit trying to make it into something she’s doing to torment you. She’s not defective because her standard of neat is different than yours, it’s not a personal affront, it’s just *different*. Come to the middle together and get over it already.

            6. I understand where you guys are coming from. I really don’t clean very often, unless every 3 weeks is “all the time.” I didn’t mention this before, but it also bothers me when she takes credit for the cleanliness when we have friends, parents, or the landlord in the apartment. However, the one thing I have asked her clearly to do, three times, is to please throw out food when it goes bad or at least when it gets moldy. I told her that I’m allergic to mold, so I would really appreciate it if there wasn’t moldy bread sitting on the counter, or moldy meat in the refrigerator. She agrees to do this, but she hasn’t improved. I don’t want to be passive aggressive and post signs to throw things out, either. It seems like my best decision would be to move out at the end of the lease. How could I expect her to respect my mental health by cleaning other things when she can’t manage to remember to respect my physical health by throwing out things that I had absolutely nothing to do with? I also think it’s rude to move other people’s things, or use their food unless agreed upon, so when I do throw things out, I ask her if it’s okay, then I ask her to please do this on her own from now on. This is a never ending issue about a simple health request, so I highly doubt she will even entertain the idea of cleaning for pure aesthetic or mental health benefit. Thanks for the input though, ladies. It just makes me sad to know that even throwing stuff away for my health doesn’t cross her mind ever.

            7. Ha! I have been reading this site a lot recently because I am contemplating applying to law school. From this post, here is what I have learned:

               It is most common for roommates to never clean. You shouldn’t have to learn to respect common living spaces just because they sometimes clean.
               In fact, cleaning is rude and makes other people uncomfortable. You should leave their dirt alone. They should accept your way of living, and even if they tone down how much they would otherwise clean, if they clean at all it is them saying that they are better than you.

               Ha! I’m going to live alone for sure! I would definitely make some *poor* soul’s life a living hell because I would clean every week without asking them to do anything ever! It would be so miserable for them to have a clean space, especially when they have family or friends over.

            8. Actually, Jackson, what I got from this thread is that people have differing comfort levels with mess and dirt, and while it would be nice if people could read our minds and adjust their habits according to our preferences, most can’t.

               Cleanliness is just like anything else – noise, overnight guests, food preferences, schedules. When two people live together, they won’t like things exactly the same. Some may like to watch movies late into the night, others think TV should be off at 10pm no exceptions. Some might see no issue with taking off for the weekend and not mentioning to their roomie that they’ll be out of town. Still others prefer a calendar on the fridge that lets everyone know where everyone else will be so no one worries. Part of having and being a roommate is being willing to compromise where you can, and speak up where you can’t. You should never assume someone knows there is a problem before you’ve spoken to them about it.

            9. I guess I just feel bad for “neat freak.” Her roommate won’t even respect her allergies, takes credit for cleaning, and other posters called rude for cleaning. Some people have been nice to her or sympathized, but it seems like it’s rare for people to actually clean. I actually did learn that some people do think it’s acceptable to never clean a bathroom. I would’ve never imagined that. To me it seems like common sense to clean it at least once a year haha, guess not. I need to be careful if I live with someone in the future because it seems like I have unusually clean roommates now, based on the above comments.

            10. Once again, thanks everyone for entertaining my petty problems and complaints :) I think the cleaning is just one issue that contributes to an overwhelming need to move out. She picks on or makes snide remarks about the television I watch and the books I read, to the point that I don’t feel comfortable watching my own large television in the living room. When we’re talking with another person, she speaks as if I’m not there. She decides to disagree with or try to correct or make fun of most things I say on our section facebook page. She publicly states that exercising is stupid, many times after classmates and I are discussing our workout routines, yet said roommate always makes sure to tell me each time she does yoga (is that not exercise?). She critiques the time I wake up in the mornings on weekends (I do tend to sleep in because I have a hard time falling asleep in our location after 2am on weekends because of bar closing). I’m overall just sick of the disrespect I feel. Maybe I am more perceptive and willing to respect people’s needs. When she said she could hear me working out in my room, I felt bad (since she thinks exercise is stupid) so I no longer do it when she’s there, or I go running outside or to the gym.

            11. OP, I just read your post from 4:14p.m. today and I have to say that it sounds like she is a hard person to be around and not very nice. It sounds like you’ve let her get to you – that is too bad. Or she’s so insecure that she has to continually tear you down. She’s just a roomie, not your manager or judge. You should be able to enjoy your time in the apartment and not have comments on your exercise, sleep or whatever.

                Just ignore her comments, work on getting to know other classmates and find some other people to live with for next year. I’ve seen roommates draw up contracts before moving in together (e.g. standards for overnight visitors, parking, cleanliness of common areas etc.) so you might try that. But I hope you can get a better living situation for next year.

            12. I also think that neat freak shouldn’t be called rude for cleaning if it’s not rude to be messy. Messy doesn’t automatically win if clean doesn’t automatically win. It would be rude to clean and give everyone else the evil eye, but if she doesn’t do that, then I don’t see how cleaning every once in a while is rude.

            13. It sounds like this roommate has a lot of issues. I would do as much as you can for your own mental health until the lease runs out. When that happens, get a new roommate.

                As for cleaning, though, I’m more on the side of messy. I think I’m actually pretty clean, in that most things are put away and I don’t leave spills on the counter or floor. But I don’t regularly vacuum, sweep, or clean the bathroom. I clean things when they get dirty.

                But I would clean regularly if I had a roommate who specified “Clean sink, toilet, and tub every 2 weeks”, “Make sure all dishes are clean by 9pm every day”, “Vacuum every Thursday evening”, etc. at the beginning of our time living together.

                If you don’t specify this stuff, she probably has no idea you want it this way.

                And living with roommates sucks. It just does. You have to be discriminating with roommates.

            14. Neat Freak, I feel awful for you. Your most recent post (4:14pm) just makes me want to give you a big hug, tell you ignore all of the cleaning issues, and focus on getting OUT of that apartment/house as soon as humanly possible. It’s possible to live with roommates and deal with problems–and to have good roommates!–but it sounds like this roommate is never going to be a good one, and that she is dragging you down.

                School is hard enough without letting someone do that to you!

            15. Hugs. This is a tough situation, especially because it seems like the cleaning issue is the only thing you dislike about your roommate that is remotely fixable.

                I agree with other posters that law school is hard enough without all this other drama. Your living space is supposed to be your sanctuary, where you can rest, be yourself, and recharge. I had a roommate who stopped speaking to me in college – did not talk to me for three months. My parents made me move out when I told them I hadn’t had my period in months because of the stress. So my advice is to take care of yourself first.

            16. Just back to chime in – after reading your more recent posts, I think you just need to make other living arrangements once this lease ends. At best, it doesn’t sound like the two of you are really compatible as roommates. Having roommates can be really, really difficult because people often don’t bring the same level of investment to making the relationship work that they would to a marriage, for example, and as you’ve noticed, many people have individual quirks that make them hard to live with. For what it’s worth, my law school roommate (who was the neater one) and I did not get along well, and I think it was a relief to both of us when we finally went our separate ways. Some people just aren’t meant to live together. I’d also point out that the stress of exams is very likely exacerbating your problems right now.

   5. I am kinda like this roommate… I have good intentions about cleaning, truly I do, but so often I just never get around to it, and then – oops! – someone else has done it. I leave food out (I’ll put it away in a minute), my dirty dishes have been known to grow new life forms (how did it get this bad? I swear I washed up just a day or two ago), and in all seriousness, if I didn’t invite friends rounds my carpet would never get vacuumed. And yet I do see the dirt, and I LOVE it when everything is immaculate and sparkling clean, and if I invite guests, I clean the whole place. In fact, when I lived alone I would make sure to invite guests on a regular basis, for this very reason ;)

      On behalf of procrastinatory roomates everywhere: my deepest apologies, and I will try harder in future.

   6. “Oh, you were going to? Great! Here’s the mop. Thanks so much!”

8. I just wanted to thank whoever recommended the book “The Defining Decade” the other day to the birthday girl. I thought it looked interesting, so I downloaded it Friday, and I am about a third of the way through it. I’m 27 years old, and it’s really resonating with me, so thanks!

   1. Seconded! I am really enjoying it thus far. Just the concept to be more mindful in my choices is, I think a really helpful one.

   2. We (his father and I) just gave it to my stepson (21, brilliant, perfect SAT score, never applied to college and living with his mother until last week) on Friday. I can only hope that he reads it and gets something out of it.

9. Does anyone have any recommendations for sandals that can be worn to a corporate workplace? I do not have a clear concept of what is and is not acceptable and am searching for a gift for my girlfriend.

   Thanks!

   1. I think it depends on the workplace. At my casual workplace, sandals are acceptable but I have plenty of friends who would get glances if they wore them to theirs. I think it’s tough to buy them as a gift for someone unless you work with them, and know what is/is not acceptable for their office.

      If you really want to get her something for her office, I might get a cute peeptoe flat or heel, or maybe even slingback. If you really want to get her sandals, get cute sandals and don’t worry so much about whether she could wear them to work.

      1. no way sandals in my corporate workplace. better choice: nice silk scarf in muted, classic or simple colors.

10. I guess I just feel bad for “neat freak.” Her roommate won’t even respect her allergies, takes credit for cleaning, and other posters called rude for cleaning. Some people have been nice to her or sympathized, but it seems like it’s rare for people to actually clean. I actually did learn that some people do think it’s acceptable to never clean a bathroom. I would’ve never imagined that. To me it seems like common sense to clean it at least once a year haha, guess not. I need to be careful if I live with someone in the future because it seems like I have unusually clean roommates now, based on the above comments.

    1. It’s not that it’s rare to clean, but it’s not rare that people have different definitions of what is “clean.” I just moved out of a situation with a roommate whose “clean” was equivalent to my “prepped for surgery.” My “clean” is perfectly clean – floors done, dishes done every night, bathroom done about once a week/every 10 days, kitchen done about once a week/every 10 days, etc. He would constantly say that he couldn’t tell if I cleaned because I didn’t do the baseboards, scrub the shower curtain, wash the wall behind the garbage can, scrub the grout in the shower every week, and a whole bunch of other little things that I honestly, would never even think to do. I tried to tell him that I honestly don’t see some things, and if it bothers him, he should just do it. He tried to tell me that since I’m home more than he is, I needed to learn how to live with other people, and I should do it. When he did clean (oh yeah, I did most of the cleaning), he would sigh and complain about how messy the apartment was. So needless to say, I sympathize a bit more with the roommate in the above situation (although she should, at least, take the moldy stuff out of the fridge).

       I should note that he also didn’t respect my allergies (called them fake when I told him that we needed to run the air conditioner at night when it was 95 degrees in DC).

       So now you know, just live with someone that shares your same views on what is “clean,” and you’ll be good. Or live alone – my old roommate would call my current apartment squalor, but I have my sanity back. So I suppose you could say I’m happy as a pig in filth? :-)

       1. Your clean that you did with your old roommate seems like my definition of clean, which I’ve let slide so as not to seem like a passive aggressive cleaner to my current roommate, so it’s good to know that I don’t require “prepped for surgery” (I like your name for that) clean, even though I admit that I may like things a bit cleaner than the average. I’m perfectly fine with her keeping her bedroom however she wants. However, as I noted above, and how other posters also noted, the cleanliness disparity issue isn’t the least of my issues with her.

       2. Seems to me the person actually doing the cleaning should be the one defining what clean means :-). A roomate who demands surgery levels while watching you work is not a neat freak, he’s a control freak, and that’s a very different problem..

11. I’m curious to see what you ladies think. How do you think the student debt problem will get solved (if it’s solved at all)?

    1. Putting a definite cap (lower than present) on amount of federal student loans that can be taken out. Make private loans dis chargeable in bankruptcy. The problem is that the risk free lending from the bank’s end makes too much $ available, reducing price sensitivity, and allows the schools to jack costs up.

       If the govt would let you borrow, say, 12k for your degree in…law (or lesbian interpretive dance, which is probably more marketable now), and tuition was $30k, and the loan was dischargable in bankruptcy, the bank you apprach for the additional financing will (wanting to get be repaid) look at the degree’s earning potential and say “no thanks” or “show me a “down payment,” or require some other upfront sign of the student having skin in the game on the front end. Just like the bank refuses to loan more than 95% of a home’s appraised value for a mortgage loan, requires proof of income, title insurance, etc., the bank would do due diligence on the degree.

       If you couldn’t borrow $50k/year by signing your name as a 22 year old, the cost of tuition would adjust quickly.

       Just my 2 cents

    2. The problem with student loans is that they are virtually risk-free for the banks, as they are not dischargeable in bankruptcy. They need to be, just like other types of debt. It is twisted that right now, defaulted student loans are more profitable to the lender than healthy loans. That’s right – it is in the lender’s best interest, money wise, for you to default on your loans.

       The ease and availability of access to student loans has caused the cost of tuition to far outstrip that of inflation. Again, as l says above, this would be addressed by making the debt more risky for lenders, so less loans are available and less students can attend. More radically, this can be addressed by cost caps on education, or, less radically, more stringently defining what a college needs to report (mean loan debt vs median, etc) to potential borrowers so they can make informed decisions.

       In addition, a disproportionate amount of student aid is accessed by people attending for profit universities where the likelihood of increased employment prospects is low. These institutions have been shown to be predatory in their lending, preying on students’ financial illiteracy to have them take out high loan amounts, and have been shown to engage in loan fraud. IMO and this may be drastic, I think student loans should only be made available for students attending not-for-profit qualified educational institutions.

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