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Pictured: Dot/Stripe Merry Mugs, available at CrateandBarrel.com for $4.95.
Our pick for sale of the weekend: Bluefly. Check out their selection of dresses — tons of cute ones are 60% off or more.
Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler
What would you recommend to wear for a couple’s photo (outdoors in Denver)?
jcb
I’d say wear a tutleneck or v-neck, maybe with a nice jacket, in a hue that complements (but doesn’t match) your partner’s oufit (maybe a sweater over a button-down), and since it’s outdoors – nice jeans and flats?
Anonymous
what is a couple’s photo?
Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler
I think it’s like an engagment photo, except my boyfriend and I aren’t engaged.
Anonymous
I wouldn’t go matchy-matchy, I would suggest complimentary colors, and dress in colors that compliment your background or scenery.
I would recommend dressing a way you normally do to be most comfortable. It can be kind of uncomfortable for normal people to be photographed for an hour or so – so dress in a style that makes you feel comfortable.
My personal example – my husband and I had our engagement pics taken outdoor at a park in the fall. We dressed in our normal day-to-day attire – him in nice jeans, a chocolate brown polo shirt and nice brown shoes. I wore nice, dark jeans, a cream colored short sleeve turtleneck blouse, and brown heels. It was in the fall – so we wanted to dress in somewhat ‘fall colors” without matching the background.
They turned out great – good luck! Also – wear a *little* bit more makeup than you might on a daily basis as the camera can wash out your complexion – don’t overdue it though! I would suggest just a full coverage powder/foundation, a slightly darker lip color than normal, and make sure to wear mascara!!
Anonymous
Personally, I dont like couples to be dressed matchy-matchy. I would suggest a nice turtleneck or crew neck sweater in a solid, neutral color that compliments your skin/eyes (green, deep purple, navy, black or brown) with black on the bottom. For the man, I’d suggest a moderately dressy button down shirt that doesnt clash with neutral moderately dressy pants (personally, I like charcoal, esp in the winter)
Mrs. Q
Does anyone have any pantyhose suggestions? I’ve tried numerous brands but find I can never get more than two wears out of a pair before snagging them on something. Brands, care tips, and wear tips are desperately needed :-)
Anonymous
Hanes Silk Reflections. Best brand, period.
BitterJD
I second the Hanes brand mainly because of exactly what you said…”I can never get more than 2 wears out of a pair.” No matter how expensive they are (I’ve even paid $39 for a pair in the hopes of finding the Holy Grail of hose), they still snag. I also suggest L’eggs Silken Mist, Bare collection (good luck finding it).
k
I tried Hanes Silk Reflections years ago — I seem to recall that they were kind of shiny. Maybe I’m mistaken. In any case, my absolute go-to for long wear is Berkshire Extra Wear Sheer. Very occasionally I’ll stick a fingernail through it right out of the package, but mostly they wear like iron. They also have a pretty firm control top, if you like that (I do).
Krista
Put your new stockings in a bucket with about a gallon of warm water with 1/2 cup of salt and let them soak for 20-30 minutes. For some reason this seems to strengthen the nylon so it won’t run.
dr
I love the Italian line, filodoro…obtained from shapings.com. Lovely everyday and occasion denier and colors and sheen. Lots of variety, great shade selections, and price point. They last significantly longer than american brands imo. The shapings.com folk also have a wide selection of other hosiery including tights from europe etc. Shipping from Toronto, costs and time are not formidable.
Anonymous
I am the only female attorney in a small firm. The attorneys in the office have traditionally gone to lunch together without inviting any of “the girls,” meaning the secretaries. This didn’t seem to be a problem until I came along and was accepted as one of “the guys.” Now the secretaries make side comments about how they are excluded from lunch and indicate that it is unfair that they are not invited to attorney outings. Personally, I find it to be more fun when it is just the attorneys and I like being considered one of “the guys.” I’m curious in hearing opinions of others on this topic. Is this considered old-fashioned elitist behavior or secretaries not knowing their place in the firm?
jcb
It is very common for the attorneys at my firm to have lunch together. It is not so common for the secretaries to be invited. I don’t think it’s elitist so much as that at lunch we tend to talk about our work a lot – secretaries generally aren’t included in (and don’t really care about) those kinds of legal conversations. And, lunches are for networking etc. Again, not something you would generally think of re secretaries. It’s funny, you’d think that they would have been more offended by the gender divide than by the work divide.
Emily
I’m actually pretty surpised that the secretaries would care! Maybe if they did lunch with lawyers more often they’d realize that we’re mostly a boring group. When we have had all firm lunches in the past, many of the support staff seemed to be a tad uncomfortable.
I’m in a similar situation. I am only one of two women attorneys in my firm, but this seems to be in advantage because I fit in with both the secretary/paralegal (all female) crowd and the lawyer (mostly male) crowd.
Maybe you can continue to attend “attorney” lunch gatherings, but make an effort to lunch with the ladies every once in a while. The secretaries might come to see you as an ally and may be friendlier (and more helpful) to you.
Anonymous
My concern with lunching with the ladies is that you risk being considered as one of “the girls” by the other attorneys. Association with the secretaries could lead to being treated like a secretary in certain situations. I sure didn’t go through 7 years of college/law school for that. I’d rather be hated by the secretaries than risk losing respect and acceptance of the other attorneys.
Erin M.
It’s a good idea to have lunch with one’s own secretary and to be polite to all the secretaries, but I’d be leery of hanging out with them in a group. It blurs the lines of the office hierarchy, and will end up awkward when you have to act like a boss, or will end with the other attorneys treating you like a secretary.
Delta Sierra
Exactly right, Erin M. and Anonymous 5:48. Secretaries are secretaries and attorneys are attorneys.
MMS
My first reaction is that the secretaries don’t respect you as an attorney, but rather, see you as “one of them.” It’s funny that they’ve decided the issue to be a boy/girl thing.
If the lunch outing is an attorney lunch, then they aren’t invited. When the entire office goes out to lunch, then they can come. I don’t view that as “old-fashioned elitist behavior” at all unless there’s an underlying attitude in general that the attorney’s are “above” everyone else.
Rachel
I think it’s very normal for attorneys to have lunch without inviting secretaries. And I think it is catty of the secretaries and belittling to you for them to suggest that because the “girl” attorney gets to go to lunch, they should get to go to lunch. The secretaries are not attorneys, and like it or not they work for the attorneys.
This is an issue that comes up a lot, I think. Women want to be “friends” with other women, and it’s fine to be friends with secretaries. But it can get very awkward sometimes when you have to be the “boss,” which of course you have to do. It works only rarely. My .02.
Louise
I agree that there is this element of implied “friendship” because you are a woman that the male attorneys probably aren’t pressured by. I found this to be true in another male-dominated field, engineering. None of the factory women wanted to socialize with the “nerdy” engineers, but when I came in as a young woman engineer, the dynamic definitely changed.
I’m sorry to say that the only way I found to solve this problem was to back off on friendships with the non-engineering women. It wasn’t elitist, they were the ones who made snide comments to me about the fact that I made more money, was salaried/not hourly wages, was allowed all the “fun” of business trips, etc. (The media portrays biz travel as glamorous…argh!) I tried hard to fit in with the only other young women, but they clearly envied my position and somehow made it into my problem. In my mind, that really showed their true colors. I don’t want to minimize my work to fit in with “the girls.” It reminded me of the pressure in high school to “act dumb” to get dates!
Lawgirl
Wow, why should there be a caste system for secretaries/paralegals/attorneys? And why should folks feel like secretaries are being “uppity” by having the gall to want to socialize with the sole female attorney in the office? When I was at a 200+ lawyer firm, I would occassionally grab lunch with my secretary and thought nothing of it. Now, granted, there wasn’t a gaggle of us, but I wouldn’t feel diminished if there were. I agree, the social circles used to group by title, but it wasn’t exclusionary. When I was a “lowly” paralegal right out of college, attorneys took me out to lunch with them and befriended me; they also wrote letters of recommendation and helped me get into law school. I wasn’t treated like a second class citizen or untouchable. Gah.
A Different Liz
I don’t think the secretaries are being uppity, nor have I ever considered support staff to be second class citizens or untouchables. The OP said the secretaries started complaining about not being invited to attorney lunches after she, the only female attorney, started attending, not that they wanted to socialize with her specifically. My opinion is that it’s acceptable for attorneys to have attorney-only lunches and that doesn’t change just because the firm hires a female attorney.
It’s not uppity for secretaries to want to socialize with the OP, but attending formerly secretary-only events could easily affect how she is viewed by the other (male) attorneys and her ability to act in a supervisory role when necessary. Moreover, the OP indicated that she prefers attorney-only events.
FWIW, I lunched w/ my LAA when working at a firm, and I also assisted a paralegal with her law school application essay. If my former LAA were to apply to law school, I’d happily write her a letter of recommendation because she certainly has the capacity to be a lawyer.
Erin M.
Eating lunch with your own secretary every once in a while is one thing. I bet you also eat with your boss every once in a while. Regularly eating lunch with a group of people who are below you on the office hierarchy blurs the lines between supervisor and supervisee.
The real problem here is that the secretaries clearly don’t see the original poster as a supervisor – they see her as one of them, who should hang out and gossip with them. It’s troubling that she’s the only female attorney and, not coincidentally, the only one they see that way.
Corporate Tool
I’m actually in a similar situation, except that I chose not to lunch with the secretary, and now she is telling my co-workers that I’m “bitchy.” As one of a VERY few women in a male-dominated office, I can’t tell you how unpleasant it has become.
Anonymous
I’m curious – why is it “more fun” when the secretaries aren’t there?
Anonymous
The conversation tends to be more interesting – involving politics, social issues, current events, legal issues, etc., and everyone seems more relaxed. When the girls are there the discussion topics tend to revolve around family and gossip and the attorneys are seem hesitant to relax.
BitterJD
Lunch is “more fun” without secretaries because no one has to worry about blurring the line between delegator/delegatee back at the office. The secretaries may confuse joviality at a social function with being friends. As a result, when it comes time to critique them for an error or request that a tedious behemoth project gets done, the secretaries will take personal offense or take vengeance on us attorneys. In addition, as a female associate, you want the secretaries to maintain a level of respect and decorum when working with you so that they are not lackadaisical when they do your work. You don’t want secretaries to assume that since you shared a lunch and are now “friends,” you’ll let them get by with slacking off. Lunching with secretaries…just don’t do it.
Plus, it’s more “fun” because you don’t have to explain every legal reference or worry that you’re excluding laymen out of a conversation when talking about legal issues.
Erin M.
Well put.
Louise
Being “one of the guys” is different than being “one of the girls.” If you’ve chosen a field that is male dominated, by definition you find it more interesting than most of what the girls are doing. At least I hope so.
I *like* talking techy stuff. Having a secretary/assembly line worker roll their eyes at me because I’m a nerd isn’t fun.
SummerAssociate
Speaking as an ex-paralegal, I think your secretaries are out of line for making ANY comments about attorney lunches at all. They are not expected to invite any of you to their lunches (besides, they should view lunch as valuable time to themselves!). I have always understood that my former bosses were less at ease when dining with their staff. My response to this was to go to law school – pretty soon “they” will have to include me, but I certainly never expected this when I was a support-staff member!
A Different Liz
I don’t think it’s elitist for attorneys to have attorney-only lunches, regardless of whether the attorneys are male or female. My experience has been that attorneys talk about the law and their cases (or transactions) all the time, even at social occasions (lunch, parties, what have you). It’s tough to do that if support staff are present without excluding them from the conversation. Many support staff I know have made it quite clear that they don’t care for social events when attorneys are present.
Personally, not only would I not feel bad about not inviting the support staff to attorney lunches, I also would not start going out to lunch with “the girls.” It may be wrong, but I think that’s a good way for the male attorneys to start lumping you in with “the girls.” That’s not a good thing for your career. The fact that this wasn’t an issue for the support staff until a female attorney was part of the attorney crowd shows how easy it is to blur those lines.
I wouldn’t describe it as secretaries not knowing their place, I’d say the complaining people don’t know YOUR place. You are not one of “the girls,” you’re a lawyer, and your sex doesn’t change that.
Erin M.
Maybe the dynamic in your firm is different than in most workplaces (although it doesn’t sound like it if the attorneys never invited the secretaries), but in the two workplaces I’ve worked at as an attorney, people regularly ate lunch only with people at their level.
I think the real problem here is that the secretaries see you as one of them, not one of the attorneys. I’m sure they’re great people, but you don’t need to be their buddy. So long as you are polite to them, it’s not elitist to want a clear line between supervisor and supervisee.
Emily
Any wine experts out there? My husband and I are having my mentor (who happens to be one of my bosses) and his wife over for dinner next weekend. I’m a pretty darn good cook (if I do say so myself), but I’m clueless when it comes to wine – I like to drink it, don’t know how to buy it. Two problems: (1) I’m making lamb, but I’m not a fan of dry red wine, which is the suggestion I’m getting online and (2) I don’t live in an area that has a nice wine shop – there’s only one place in town that has somewhat of a selection (a liquor store with employees who don’t appear to be wine experts by any means).
Does anybody have any advice for me when I go shopping for wine to go with dinner? Here’s the menu I have planned: (1) Spinach Salad with Oranges and Warm Goat Cheese (2)Lamb Au Poivre (3) Cranberry, Shallot, and Dried-Cherry Compote (4) Mashed Potatoes (5) Sauteed Carrots with Honey and Rosemary and (6) Rustic Plum and Port Tart
Also, I believe that it’s okay to open and serve the wine I buy even if my guests bring a bottle with them. Am I correct that this is proper etiquette?
Anonymous
Any Pinot Noir would be a safe bet with that menu.
SummerAssociate
I second the Pinot Noir suggestion!
I usually have my bottle of wine open before guests arrive. We move to their wine later in the evening. It’s nice to open the wine they bring early on, so it has time to breathe, and so they feel like their contribution is appreciated.
zee
It is always appropriate to serve the wine you have selected with your meal. Guests bring wine as a gesture but have no idea what you’re serving so they can’t be expected to make a correct pairing.
Lynette
Since you are the one who has planned the menu, you have presumably chosen wines that will complement the meal. Your guests should not *expect* you to open and serve their wine, but it’s perfectly alright to serve it if you’d like.
I think a Malbec might work with your menu as well. Are there any gourmet or specialty food shops in your area that might be able assist you with your wine selections?
Amanda
Hi Emily – I’m quite into wine (went to college in the Fingerlakes and had the benefit of loads of close-by tastings, classes, etc). Pinot noir is a great idea for a main. A Shiraz is a good one too, go for something from Australia or South Africa. If you’re not sure if your guests are going to like a big, hearty red, I would serve a Meritage. It’s an American style Bordeuax that is my safety when I was out with a lot of co-workers clients. It can hold its own with food but is pleasant and easy to drink.
When it’s a nice meal like you’re planning, I think a nice touch is to have a sparkling wine of some sort before the meal. If your guests bring a bottle, maybe serve it with the dessert or after.
Hope that helps!
Erin (taking dictation from her man)
She said she didn’t like dry, so I would go with the Pinot. You probably want an American Pinot that will be fruit-forward…one inexpensive option that seems to be widely available is Louis Latour. Also, Beaujolais Nouveau was just released and is a very approachable fun wine that is great for beginners.
Lawgirl
Love your menu! Do you have links to recipes? ;-)
Emily
Thanks for the great info everybody. I know just enough about wine to know what a Pinot and a Beaujulasi Nouveau are, so hopefully I can find something that will work!
Lawgirl – thanks! Epicurious.com is my go-to for recipes. I cobbled this menu together using mostly recipes from that I’ve gotten from that website over the years. My advice is to read the reviews that are posted by cooks who have actually made the dish. Sometimes there is some good tips on how to tweak the recipe.
Anonymous
That lamb au poivre recipe from Epi is awesome, and I don’t even like lamb. I served it with Qupe Syrah.
jcb
oh, I love Qupe syrah. Not too expensive, not hard to find. Good choice.
MJ
And Shiraz/Petite Syrah goes really well with lamb as well. You can order online at wine.com, Sherry Lehman, K&L (google) if your state accepts wine deliveries from other states. Some do not.
2L
Any fellow law students out there suffering through exam period right now? As my commenter name implies, I am a 2L with nothing but exams on the brain for the next week and a half (until finals end, at which point I continue my summer job search – also incredibly stressful). Would love to commiserate if anyone reading the comments is in a similar boat or at least has some kind words of encouragement. :)
KK
Exams suck. End of story. Your almost half way there. You can do it!!!!!
Fellow 2L
I absolutely feel your pain! I’m chained to my dining room table outlining Business Entities with my only comfort being that four exams from now, I’ll be “half a lawyer.” Yep. That’s all I’ve got.
Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler
I’m a first semester 1L. Think back to hown much that sucked and (hopefully) your exams will seem better. If not, then God help me.
Woman of Color
I’m a 3L (Thank God), and instead of reading about the wonders of United States International Taxation, I am checking out Corporette. It is so funny how the attitude changes so dramatically over the course of the law school experience. 1L, around this time I was an absolute mess. 2L, not so much of a mess because of exams, but because of writing a note, doing moot court, and other extra curriculars. Now I am just painfully bored. I can’t wait for next week Friday. I will be free! Well, not really, but almost (still have a take home exam, minor details). With all that being said though, I will absolutely miss law school. I had the greatest time, and have connected with such wonderful people. This was the first time during my academic career I did not have to work and go to school (worked 2 jobs during my Bachelors; worked 2 full time jobs while earning my Masters). My wonderful husband has supported me during law school, and I just let loose. It was so great to get involved. For me, this was the undergraduate experience I never had. Although I am excited about the future (very grateful to be employed after graduation), I relish the limited time that I have left at my school. Man, writing all this gushy stuff about school, makes me feel bad about ignoring the tax code. Best of luck to all the future Corporettes pulling the allnighters, sippin’ on redbull. You are almost home.
KLo
sitting at school at 5 am in the snow (deep south) because I couldn’t pull an all nighter to memorize tax (I loathe 5 exams in 7 days) … I’m with you.
Amber
Me! Luckily, I have only 2 exams. I’m having a very difficult time getting the motivation to study. I just started outlining last week. Eep!
em
Fellow 2L…I feel your pain. I have a seminar paper and a journal note to finish on top of 4 finals, ugh. At least the end of the semester is in sight. This has been by far my most work-heavy and stressful semester. I’ve got Admin Law, Business Associations, Trusts & Estates, and Intl Law, you?
Rachel
From a part-time adjunct professor, let me offer some advice on those of you taking exams. Your grammar and syntax DOES matter. If I can’t read it, I’m not grading it well. It doesn’t have to be paper-perfect, but please use capital letters and punctuation. And try to avoid overly informal prose.
My unsolicited advice.
em
Thanks!
Anonymous
I’m a 3L…can’t bring myself to study yet. I can’t wait to get out of this craphole.
Cleo
I feel your pain! Hence, sitting here with the Internal Revenue Code in front of me, yet reading Corporette (and every other blog I can think of). It is definitely more difficult to focus on exams as a 3L — there just isn’t the same level of anxiety I had as a 1L to motivate me. ugggg. To the 1 & 2Ls, take comfort in the fact that it all does whiz by pretty fast. We’ll all be lawyers before we know it!
KYC
another 3L here spending friday night with the first amendment. the only solace is the knowledge that this is my last set of finals. yay for working full time for credit next semester!
Teresa
Con Law midterm Monday… oy! It is 2am and I’m taking a Corporette break before heading to bed and getting up early to study in the morning.
Another unmotivated 3L
Another unmotivated 3L here… I have the job lined up, I know I’m not going to fail, and I know I’m not going to make honor roll. So what is the point of looking at my books again? Worlds worst case of senioritis (3L-itis?) right here.
Another unmotivated 3L
Oh yeah, and Barbri will teach me this stuff when I need it for the bar exam, right?
Mel^2
Hah- depends on the state. In some states BarBri will skip an entire area that shows up as one of only a small number of essays, so best to learn it now so you at least have some understanding when it pops up on the bar and BB told you to ignore that section.
SUCL 3L
Totally unmotivated 3L here. My luck though, I only have one exam (only had 1 lecture-style class – a 5 credit CLI internship, 1 skills class with no final, and a research project rounded out my schedule). Can’t wait to graduate too – no job yet, but some very promising prospects.
My exam attitude has DEFINITELY changed since this time 1L year. Law school exams are far less scary now and (in my opinion) not as hard. Really, if you don’t fail out after your 1L year, you’re not likely to at this point.
Buck up! It’ll all be over soon!
Canadian3L
As of tomorrow, I will be 5/6 done law school! Woohoo!!!
em
Congrats – lucky!
Corporate Mommy To Be
I’m expecting triplets. I have yet to tell my boss, because I want to wait until the end of the first trimester. I have always had a glass of wine at the holiday parties and afterwork events. Any ideas on how to dodge the alcohol this year?
Louise
Congratulations! How exciting; are you a little bit nervous? I wish all the best for you and your rapidly growing family.
Ask for a tonic or seltzer with a slice of lime. Looks like a gin & tonic. No one will even notice. Really, no one keeps track of who is drinking what. Just be nimble enough to refill your own glass before someone else offers to fetch the next round. If you really think someone will comment on your lack of wine, you could bribe the bartender to fill a wine glass with highly diluted apple juice, which looks like white wine. Give him/her the straight skinny, tip big up front, and smile. I’ve heard that telling your bartender you are expecting in the first trimester is actually good luck!
J
The Chicago Tribune just covered this:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/travel/chi-tc-home-faker-drinking-
12xx-nov29,0,1176449.story
Erin M.
Club soda with a twist. No one can tell there’s no gin or vodka in it.
Marla
If anyone says anything say you’re on medication that can’t be taken with alcohol, or say that you have to drive.
Sadie
Yup. Just ask for it in a rocks glass. I did that at a wedding when I was in my first trimester and nobody was the wiser.
CJ in CA
At my firm this summer I wanted to drink about 1/2 as much as everyone else. When it was a big party at a bar I followed Louise’s advice- ask sweetly, and explain what you want, then say “same thing”. Especially if everyone else is drinking a lot they won’t notice.
If it’s a sit down, table, dinner type thing I’d get the wine and have it at the table and just not drink it.
Of course, you aren’t probably aren’t as worried about fitting in as a summer associate so you could just say, “I’m cutting back on drinking- calories, you know.” This might seem especially plausible if someone’s noticed you’ve put on a little weight!
Corporette Mommy To Be
That’s a great idea girls! Thank you so much!
clerky
Hmmmm, when I don’t feel like drinking I just say up front that I want to pass this time around, or I’m feeling tired and don’t want to get more tired by drinking wine, or that I’m not just up for it. Most people could care less. I think it’s a bigger issue if you never drink at all because people assume you’re Mormon or very conservative, but everyone understands that just because you drink doesn’t mean you feel like drinking at every social event.
Congrats on the triplets, how exciting!
I think there’s more pressure for men to drink around friends/colleagues, but I feel that as a woman it’s no big deal at all to say no thank you.
Anonymous
I agree with the not drinking at all being more of an issue. I’m allergic and people don’t believe me half the time. I am not sure why it should be an issue, but it is.
Rachel
If you are concerned, just take a glass and carry it around. No one will notice you are not drinking it.
Delta Sierra
Good idea, Rachel. Fake-sip now and then. Keep the glass a little better than half full, and you won’t be offered refills. Or, declare yourself a designated driver. Watch out for drinking too much non-alc fizzy stuff, though, 3 babies + too much fizz = unhappy abdomen.
Momma x 2
At the risk of incurring the wrath of many, I will say that I’ve had a glass of wine, every so often, through two pregnancies. (Even when I’m huge and the waitress gives me a nasty look). Doctors have been fine with it, and March of Dimes photos are not a function of one glass…
I also drink during nursing time. This one’s been nursing for 16 months. If it came down to weaning, or not drinking for 25 consecutive months, well, I’d have a serious problem! : )
That being said, congratulations, best of luck, and do what *you* are comfortable with!
RKS
I was going to say the same — have a few sips of wine if you’re really nervous about people noticing you’re not drinking. A few sips, or even a glass, of wine here and there won’t hurt. And I say this as someone who’s become an expert in Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, courtesy of adopting a kiddo with it.
Emily
I found out I was (unexpectedly) pregnant about 30 minutes before I went to an event with members of my family who would have noticed if I hadn’t been drinking. I sent my husband to the bar for a cranberry juice in a rocks glass. My sister even took a drink of it and didn’t realize there wasn’t any alcohol in it. If you don’t think anyone would think ill of you for having a “cocktail” instead of wine, I’d go this route. Once people realize you’re pregnant, the more “observant” of them might remember back to the holiday party and picture you with a glass in your hand – if it’s a wine glass, those people may think you were actually drinking wine. Plus, you can actually drink the cranberry juice instead of pretending to drink wine!
C. Z.
1L Exams start on Thursday for me! I’m taking a brief break before getting back to studying.
I emailed C. but thought I’d ask this question here too. I have an interview for a summer internship with a federal judge soon and don’t know what to wear. All my suits are too big, but I don’t have a lot to spend, and don’t know how conservative to veer. Any advice??
Mel^2
If you’re near an outlet mall, you may find some inexpensive options at Ann Taylor, BR, or BCBG. I got one interview suit at BCBG for something like $80, and I know that BR and can have suits in the $100-150 price range.
I’m not even going to get into the skirt v. pants debate because I don’t think there’s any consensus. Unless you’re in an area where the judges are known for requiring women to wear skirts to court (e.g parts of the South), I say go for what’s comfortable and fits you the best. Most of the skirt suits I’ve seen out these days all have pencil skirts, and unfortunately I don’t think it’s a flattering or appropriate style for many women. I know I have to wear slimming pantyhose and a slip to get them to fit right and even then I still feel like the style can be too sexy.
Erin M.
Skirt suit with hose and close-toed shoes. I second the recommendation for JC Penney. If your suit isn’t monstruously huge on you, it’s probably fine to wear one that’s a bit big. Leave the jacket unbuttoned if it looks better.
A Different Liz
Have you tried places like Nordstrom Rack or TJ Maxx for suits? I just got a nice Anne Klein pantsuit at Nordstrom Rack for $80. Macy’s can have some pretty good deals–Tahari is one of my favorite brands.
With respect to what to wear to the interview, you should wear a suit in black, navy, or a similarly conservative color. I do not believe that you have to wear a skirt suit. I wore the same Anne Klein pantsuit (not the one I just bought at Nordstrom Rack) for every law firm interview and my interview with the federal judge for whom I am currently clerking, and got an offer every time. I call it my lucky suit. That being said, I realize that other people have different opinions on the appropriateness of a pantsuit. This site has a page devoted to what to wear on an interview that you might find helpful.
https://corporette.com/2008/08/11/reader-mailbag-part-i-what-to-wear-on-interviews-generally/
If you go with a skirt, make sure it is not too short when you sit down. In addition, I would always wear hose and closed-toe shoes with a skirt suit for an interview.
C
Also a former federal judicial clerk, from back when very few women wore pants to court. I second the thought to go with a skirt suit, pantyhose and closed toe shoes. Judges who are less conservative won’t care, but with a skirt suit you will not risk putting off even the least bit someone who does notice.
As for price, if you know your size in a name brand, try ebay. I’ve made some good purchases on ebay. I’m small and normally wear a 0 or 2 petite; if clothes are generally too big for you, try a petite size ina store, then shop ebay, assuming you have enough time to get it via shipping.
Alternatively, Ann Taylor and Talbots are both good sources for conservative skirt suits and generally have good sales this time of year.
Good luck.
CJ in CA
I interviewed with judges this summer and fall. I’d agree that it would be pretty hard to go “TOO” conservative. I’ll also mention JC Penny. I have an older version of this: http://bit.ly/8pdlco
Does it look expensive? No. But the skirt isn’t too tight, is long enough, and the jacket is conservative enough etc. It’s the most basic suit you can get if they have it in your size, and it’s $60. AND you can wash it if you must. Fit matters more than price, especially at your level. Mine haven’t fallen apart, but I did dry one in the dryer (in an emergency!) and it shrank a bit.
I think they might have them in store as well, if you need it quickly!
Rachel
Judicial interview means conservative skirt suit. Ultra-conservative skirt suit, probably black. Some judges are really old-school, and you don’t know until you get in there. I’d go with a string of simple pearls as well.
Second the outlet-mall recommendation.
Delta Sierra
Try a higher-end consignment store. American Cancer Society thrift shops in wealthy neighborhoods often have amazing seldom-worn suits for almost nothing.
Anonymous
Suit. Wear a conservative/classic suit even if it’s a $100 suit from Macy’s. They don’t expect you to be wearing designer, but they do expect/will be looking for someone who dresses appropriately.
J
Former federal district court law clerk here, from back in the day when women couldn’t wear pants in the courtroom. For the interview, you should wear a conservative skirt suit, closed-toe pumps, and hose. The interview suit doesn’t have to last forever and it doesn’t have to be fashionable — I’ve heard some recommendations here about inexpensive J.C. Penny suits if you need to save money. It might be cheap and fall apart soon after you get it, but it could get you through the interview looking like someone who knows how to dress for federal court.
Sarah
I second the skirt-suit. The way I see it, the worst someone who is not-so conservative won’t necessarily care, but someone who is rather conservative will say, “A woman wearing pants in a courtroom?! Travesty! Out, ye heathen!” As you don’t know what you’re going to get, always err on the side of safety.
Also, you’re a 1L. On your first round of interviews. No one is expecting you to have a closet full of Bbros. Unless your previous work experience was with Brooks Brothers. However, how “too-big” are your suits? If they’re just a bit too big or a size too big, why not get them tailored? Depending on how much you need to get taken in, it might be cheaper than getting a whole new suit that you would have to hem/take in/take out anyway. And then you can wear that suit a lot more, too. In my experience, it’s quite easy for someone who wears a suit every day to tell the difference between a tailored suit and a suit that hasn’t been tailored. The tailored always looks much nicer, and can make a less-expensive suit look not-less-expensive.
And, I must say, every time I’ve worn a french cuff shirt, people have noticed and I’ve gotten compliments. Might be a nice investment…
lawdiva
Former federal clerk here who clerked for a liberal female judge, and I would still say that you should wear a skirt suit. You just don’t know the judges well enough, you’re only a 1L with not too many options in this economy, so why not avoid the risk and just wear a skirt? Stick with black, navy blue or dark gray. Definitely wear hose too and non-patent leather pumps. I don’t think you need to wear a button down blouse, any sort of shell is probably fine. I also wore small unobtrusive earrings.
I second the comment about making sure that your skirt is not too short. We had a few interviewees whose skirt was too short and we definitely noticed. Stick with knee length.
Here’s some additional advice: Make sure you know why you want to intern for this particular judge and have read some of her/his opinions. Some of the interns we interviewed were totally clueless about why they wanted to work in our court. Do not be late under any circumstance. You will probably get interviewed by the clerks — don’t be too casual/laid back with the clerks, just because they may be close to your age, it’s still an interview. Some people “let their hair down” in front of the clerks and come across as really juvenile (no, we don’t want to know about your former stint as a bartender!).
Finally, it’s a good practice to follow up with a nice and short thank you letter to the judge for his/her time. Good luck! :)
Mel^2
Sorry to hijack- just a question for those of us who are a bit older when entering into the job market. One of the problems I tend to have when mentioning my relevant experience (some of which comes from prior to law school) is that employers tend to become concerned that I may be too old for the position or have trouble working with people who may be 5 or more years younger than me. How should I address discussing relevant pre law school experience or should I just leave it out entirely? Usually questions involve my experience with research and writing, so naturally I want to include my prior job as a technical writer in the discussion.
cleo
I’m not really in your position (I only worked two years between college and law school…oh and I’m also a 3L procrastinating on studying), but I would be pretty annoyed if somebody asked me that in an interview. It’s almost like saying, this is a male-dominated workplace; do you think as a woman you’ll be able to handle it? Anyway, I assume you worked with people who were not all exactly the same age in your previous job. And obviously if you’re a bit older, you’ve been working with people 5+ years younger than you during your three years in law school… I would just say been there, done that, age has zero bearing on my ability to do this job or get along with my peers, plus I bring a different perspective and a unique skill set that will add value to the workplace. And then I would definitely talk up your prior experience–it sounds like something employers would drool over.
…ok, back to studying for me…
Erin M.
We’ve been interviewing people for a position that requires about 2 years’ attorney experience (it’s not a traditional law firm job). The large majority of people who made it to the second round have pre-law school work experience, and two of us who currently hold the same position didn’t have pre-law school experience (so, we’re younger than or the same age as them). And our supervisor only recently turned 30, so she’s younger than some of the applicants too (and one of my current colleagues). And also, I’m about a year and a half younger than I “should” be for someone who graduated from high school the year I did, so until recently I’ve always been the youngest non-support person in my office. So I think I’m well-positioned to answer your question.
We definitely have speculated as to the age of some of the applicants, but it’s more idle speculation than anything potentially discriminatory. Even if you don’t discuss your prior experience, I assume it’s on your resume and so is your college graduation year, so employers know roughly how old you are anyway. And having relevant experience is definitely an asset. It means your supervisor won’t have to check up on you or review your work as much. You’ll be trained in your job faster. So keep in mind that you have a significant advantage that younger candidates don’t.
The most important thing is not to come off as condescending or like you know more than the interviewer, especially if the interviewer is young. Your experience is relevant, but it’s not identical to what you’d be doing at the new job. So don’t put yourself forward as an expert – just as someone who already has the skills needed for the job. But feel free to talk about relevant accomplishments you’re particularly proud of. If you’re just out of law school and interviewing for your first law job, you could point out that you are used to working full time and know what it’s like to be in an office all day – that’s also an advantage, because a lot of people just don’t adjust well to their first full-time job.
As for the direct concerns with age, in my experience, once everyone is a couple of years out of college, five years’ age difference is not a big deal. At least in my office, the main concern with new hires is whether they’ll fit into our office culture. We’re friendly, social people who eat lunch together and sometimes do things outside the office together too. So if you’re asked about that, say you’ve had both friends and colleagues of a wide range of ages and you’ve always gotten along with your colleagues just fine. You could even mention specific anecdotes, but probably the interviewers just want to make sure you’re not going to be a stick in the mud.
It would be remiss of me not to point out that age discrimination is illegal, too, although there’s not much you can do about it unless it’s blatant. But you can’t legally be “too old” for a position.
J
I do some hiring for a federal agency, and I like to see prior experience. Keep it in, and use your cover letter to explain how the experience makes you a better candidate. It’s an advantage, and the age thing really doesn’t mean anything at this point. Strange that anyone would even bring up a 5-year age difference.
Mel^2
Thanks everyone for the advice. This happened in one recent interview and I was really taken aback and wasn’t sure how to approach it. I am glad to read that this isn’t a common question. I feel like I approached the interview in much the same way Erin suggested, but maybe this employer had some problem in the past with clashes in the workplace.
C. Z.
Thanks for the advice everyone! I have only 2 days between the last day of finals and the interview (at 8 am 45 minutes from home! ah!) but I think I will take a day and try to pick up a suit. You all gave some great suggestions; I was definitely unsure of interview etiquette on top of the dress code. Glad to hear that a shell would be appropriate instead of a button down. Button downs tend to gap and I was worried about accidentally revealing too much at the interview.
:-)
Alexis
If you haven’t bought yet, try Ross, Marshall’s or TJ Maxx. I frequently see really cheap Calvin Klein, Anne Klein, Nine West stuff at Ross… I’ve bought good stuff there for <$20…
Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler
I am taking a break from studying torts/running my head into the same wall over and over. I am totally going to try and use travesty and heathen sometime before this weekend is up. You tickled me pink. Thanks for that.
Lynette
@ Sarah
Fashionista question. Do you search for unique cuff links to wear with your french cuffs?
Sarah
I do now :-) At first, I just wanted to find the most feminine cheap cuff links Kohl’s had, and ended up with a nice silver (not real silver, obvi) pair of small bars. I just bought a pair of Wonder Woman cuff links off Etsy.com last night though, that I think may become my lucky cuff links. I’ve come to realize that cuff links aren’t so noticeable that you can’t get away with something more unique. However, because they’re small (and still cuff links and you’re still wearing a french cuff shirt), if they’re unique I think it’s a non-issue in terms of conservativeness. And, if someone notices your awesome one-of-a-kind cufflinks, then it’s usually a good thing.
However, I wouldn’t buy one-of-a-kind cuff links that had a picture of Hitler on them or some other equally distasteful or despicable symbol. THAT would be noticeable and not in the good way.
dr
you might check thomas pink and red envelope for cufflinks. I think red envelope has some nice ones on sale now.
Caitlin
I have my eye on a Chanel-ish white wool skirt suit on eBay – collarless jacket and a pencil skirt. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360213610024&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT) Since it’s pretty inexpensive, I was thinking of buying it to wear the two pieces separately, but now I’m wondering if I could pull of wearing it as a suit to our company’s World Meeting this month. It’s not client-facing so I can be a bit more fashionable (I work for a consulting company) However, it feels a bit ladies-who-lunch, plus it’s white. Thoughts?
Erin M.
It looks to me like something I’d see women wear to church. I’ve never seen anything like that worn at my workplace.
lawdiva
I think it depends on where you live, but I don’t see people wearing white suits (or even a white blazer) at my work.
Mel^2
I think it would probably be fine in a warmer climate where people don’t wear as many dark colors. I’m in Florida and have a winter white suit that doesn’t look out of place at all.
Anonymous
I can’t imagine anyone in NY wearing that (granted, I’m a lawyer in a conservative firm). I like the outfit, but not sure it’s the best bet if you want a suit. I’d probably go with a “real” suit or else the appropriate dress.
Delta Sierra
Not for work, IMO. Looks like a lady on a committee for a charity ball.
Lawgirl
I like it. I would wear the whole suit to church and wear the jacket and/or skirt separately to work. — jacket with navy or black trousers and maybe add a skinny belt with details to cinch the waist.
Sarah
Just echoing the law school boooo on finals sentiment. Even worse – Zoo World on Facebook won’t load. :-( This is the first year my school has had a reading period before finals, and I’ve found myself supremely unmotivated by the extra 10 days I have before my Trusts & Estates and Bankruptcy finals.
Why they couldn’t institute a reading period 1L year when I had 5 finals back-to-back, I don’t know. Or 2L year when I had to take my corporations and evidence finals on the same day. And today there is pretty snow. Not conducive to studying…
Woman of Color
No reading period?
Sarah
Nope. Classes would end on Friday, Finals would start on Monday. So, we had a “reading period” of the weekend. It was horrible.
tori
storing fine merino wool sweaters…
I’m new to this site & loving the wardrobe advice… I’m 34, new (finally professional) job starting on Jan 1st, & I need a wardrobe overhaul after yrs of shopping only at jc penny! Just got a v-neck sweater & 2 cardigans from Ann Taylor. I have slimline hangers (from Bed & Bath)….is that an acceptable way to keep them?
KLo
I don’t think so. Best purchase I ever made (in my previous career life) was a couple pieces of California Closet that have the sweater drawer/pull-out shelves. I fold mine, I don’t do the piece of acid-free tissue like I should, and they look fabulous. Never a stretched shoulder!
Mel^2
I wouldn’t recommend it for nicer sweaters. I tend to dry clean mine only a few times a season, so the shoulders will get really stretched out if I put them on hangers. The best thing to do is put them in a drawer. If you have a rough bottom on the drawer, get some sort of liner so they won’t get snagged. I also like to put a dryer sheet in the drawer because it gives them a fresh scent after each wear (and keeps static down).
Tidy
First, congrats on the new job.
Second, NEVER hang up your sweaters! Never never never! Fold and store in a drawer or something, but don’t jam them too tightly into the drawer. I’ve made that mistake and you get smooshed looking, wrinkled messes. Especially with merino. They are, sadly, not as resilient as I would like.
C
To those who replied: What about knit dresses? I bought one recently at Ann Taylor – I think it’s wool/acrylic blend – and have it hung in the closet. Is this not the right choice?
Anonymous
I drape knit dresses over the horizontal bar of the slimline-type non-slip, no-crease hangars. So far, this method works well for me. I tried hanging them conventionally on the same hangars, but some dresses ended up with odd puckers in the shoulders (nothing that didn’t come out with a bit of pressing, or dry-cleaning, though).
Tidy
I’m the same as anon. Drape those but I’d fold them first somehow so that they aren’t really hanging from that one point. Think about how you get sweaters and knit dresses back from the dry cleansers: they usually (or should!) fold it in thirds (ie: sleeves and sides folded into the middle), then fold it in half, then drape it over the hanger. This reduces the tencile load on the knit.
Sharon
Corporette, is there a way you could indicate new posts to your threads? Because when I visit, I have to skim through everything to see if something new has been posted in the discussion, and try to remember — was it 47 comments the last time I visited and now it’s 49? Isn’t there a way to indicate “most recently commented on” or somesuch on the side bars?
lawdiva
Here here!
Anonymous
I second this!
2L
I started this “boo finals” thread and it makes me feel better to know that there are a lot of us shut in studying this weekend. In my area, it is cold outside and the weather is bad, so at least I’m not missing much! I keep telling myself that it will all be done in just under 10 days…hang in there ladies!
coolcat
I’m a 3L and procrastinating. I just came across a job posting on our law school’s job site. The posting only asks for a resume and cover letter submitted through the site. I will also be sending a hard copy of my resume and cover letter through the mail. Would it be a bad idea if I also included a writing sample along with the resume and cover letter? Anything else I should/shouldn’t do? thanks!
SUCL 3L
Wait on the writing sample – if they want one, they’ll ask you. But if you’re a really bang-up writer (maybe that’s why you want to include it with your resume?), see if there’s a way that you can discuss your skill in your cover letter (such as mentioning prior experience w/ research and writing or any special writing projects you did that might be relevant to the job).
2L
Hi everyone… I had a firm interview on Friday and have a question about thank you note etiquette… I wrote my thank you’s on regular-sized paper with the same heading as my resume and cover letter (name, address, e-mail, etc.). Do I fold them into “threes” and put them in regular sized envelopes, or is this frowned upon… what is the alternative, if so? Brown manila envelopes? Priority mail envelopes at the post office? Will that look like I’m trying too hard? Help would be appreciated. :)
CJ in CA
This is a great question. My career office says typed e-mail thank you’s are best because they are quick. I’ve heard others say mail only, but typed similar paper. And I’ve heard still other attorneys even say handwritten on classy (simple, professional) note cards.
If you interview someone and don’t get a same day/ next day e-mail do you think less of them? If you get a type written letter do they seem more professional or cold? I never even considered folding etiquette!
Erin M.
I send actual cards, as do all the people I know who send thank-yous at all. I’d be a little surprised to receive thank-you on letter paper. But I don’t think it’s a big deal. Honestly, a majority of interviewers don’t care if you even send them – although I do recommend sending them, but I’m old fashioned and a stickler for etiquette.
C. Z.
I would actually use real thank you cards. I always buy the nice cotton Crane cards, like these: http://www.crane.com/prdSell.aspx?DeptName=ThankYouNotes&SubDeptName=BusinessThankYouNotesandCards&Name=CT3631_EngravedCharcoalPinstripeThankYouCards
Congrats on the interview!
SUCL 3L
I heart Crane & Co. stationary. I bought some nice note cards this summer in anticipation of of sending thank yous for interviews.
One thing I did a little different (and this is really just a me thing) – I didn’t actually get “thank you” cards. I got blank note cards with a small floral design on the front – that way I can just write in the “thank you” myself and still have the option of using the note cards for my personal correspondence.
Cleo
I wrote thank-you emails right after my interviews because I wanted them to get to the interviewers ASAP, before the attorneys had a chance to get together to talk about whether to hire me. Obviously thank yous are about being polite, but all the better if they get there in time to possibly improve peoples’ impression of you before a decision is made! It also gives the attorney a chance to reply if they feel inclined; sometimes they do and that’s a good sign that they liked you.
I guess I should add that I am not in a very conservative area, so I don’t think anybody at a firm in my region would be aghast at receiving an email vs. actual note. If you are going to send paper, I definitely agree with the recommendations to send a card, not letterhead.
lawdiva
I have done a variety of things — for clerkship interviews, I typed a short thank you letter on the same letterhead as my cover letter. For firm interviews, I typically sent email thank you’s for the reasons already discussed, that I felt it was important that the recipients get the note in time to help them make a decision. Lastly, I have also sent hand written notes on actual thank you cards, but these were pretty few and far between.
Having been the recipient of some thank you cards, it is important to doublecheck your spelling and grammar. If you have bad handwriting, do not write a thank you card. And this probably goes without saying, but don’t use any smiley faces. :)
J
Re: thank you notes, I’m on the hiring side, though with the federal government, not a firm. I’d rather see a thank you note in e-mail, or typed on a piece of paper. Almost everything I do in my work comes by e-mail now, so that’s how I keep my files. What I’d prefer is that you type it out, print or scan it to PDF, and e-mail that to me, along with short note saying: please see attached correspondence. The PDF version of the letter, which will include your name/address on the letterhead and a signature, makes it more formal than just a note jotted into the text of an e-mail, but I’ll be able to save it in my Outlook “hiring” folder and reference it easier down the road. I don’t see many handwritten cards these days, and when I do, I lose them or they sit in my mailbox for ages because I never think to look there anymore.
CP
I’m on my large firm’s recruitment committee, and we get way more of the traditional thank-you-cards than emails — probably 5 to 1. I’ve never received a folded 8 1/2 x 11 thank you in a business envelope — but I’ve also never heard anyone comment on/complain about a preferred format. I personally prefer the note to the email, but it would never be the breaking point in my decision to recommend or not. Just be sure to spell-check, and if you include person-specific comments about something you discussed, be sure you send it to the right person — you would be shocked…
Erin M.
Hmm, I prefer cards for exactly the reason you mentioned – I don’t see that many anymore, and so when I do it says something about the type of person the interviewee is.
RF
Christmas party is over for this year. YIPPEE! No more stressing about what I am going to wear or who will end up sharing our table. Does anybody really think these things are enjoyable?
Erin M.
My division’s potluck is fun. The big party with my whole department where the head of the department gets drunk and dances, not so much. The really big party for the entire firm, thank God, they canceled it this year.
lawdiva
Mine was last night and I was pleasantly surprised that I had a really good time, as did my boyfriend. I’m also glad that I dressed up because some people went all out. I didn’t feel stressed out to talk to any partners (unless we wanted to, of course) and everyone was in a great mood.
B
I despise work-related social events of all kinds, and holiday parties, as amplified work-related social events, are the worst for me. (It’s a good thing I work in-house now as this is one of the aspects of firm culture that stressed me out.)
Non-stop working
Any recommendations on a non-polyester black blazer that I can wear to work? I’ve been scouring the web and there are so many to choose from but I wanted to see if any of you have a particular blazer that you love. I’m looking for full sleeves, nothing cropped or too trendy. Thanks!
Alexis
I searched and searched, and I LOVE LOVE LOVE my Tahari blazer. I think it’s this one, but I got mine at TJ Maxx for $100. Worth EVERY PENNY!
http://www.saksfifthavenue.com/main/ProductDetail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524446234919&afsrc=1&site_refer=GGLBASE001&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=ParentItem0473019103497
Clerky
Alexis – thanks for the recommendation. Great deal at TJ Maxx, sadly I don’t want to spend $300 at Saks right now. I haven’t been to TJ Maxx in years, maybe I’ll check it out.
Anonymous
Does anything have problems with preparing gift lists?
My in-laws have requested a Christmas list. After prior experience, I know that clothing is not an option — not the same taste, plus even if I pick out something, it still goes wrong. Anything they purchase they have to ship halfway across the country, which eliminates the remainder of my ideas. I am at a loss of what to ask for — I know that means I do not need anything, I still need to give them an idea or two. Otherwise they will resort to their own ideas (not a good idea) or another Visa gift card (I despise them). Any favorite gift ideas?
Erin M.
Ask them to make a donation to charity in your name, or buy something in your name from Heifer International? I make HI donations in people’s names if I don’t know what to get them.
george c.
Is that the same as the Human Fund? j/k :)
newassociate
anything from nordstrom can be exchanged for anything else, or cash.
i also like requesting crane stationery in such situations. it’s always beautiful but far too expensive to buy myself. or, depending on the budget, anything all clad/le crueset/shun or other luxury kitchen essentials. i use my all clad nonstick fry pan almost every single day.
L
Why not gift cards to X store – eg banana, coach, whatever you would buy for yourself?
My IL’s who live in Ohio are the same way – they give stuff without gift receipts from stores we don’t have here, and it is always ugly or the wrong size or tacky. Most of it ends up at Goodwill.
Lynette
I maintain a wish list on Amazon. Believe me, it’s not hard to fill up several pages once you start looking around. I have cookbooks, CDs, perfume, gourmet food items, heck even quite a few pairs of shoes with size and color preference.
I even got my sister to build a list for her, my BIL and my neices and nephews and since they live out of state, it makes things so much easier. I just get out my credit card, point & click and my shopping is done.
dc lady
hello ladies! i just took the lsat this weekend. phew, glad its over — now i can start shopping!