Weekend Open Thread
Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
I have been craving a blue trench coat ever since I saw a number of them featured in Real Simple. I'm liking this lovely one from Via Spiga, part of Bloomingdale's 30% off sale — it was $230, now $184 (available in black and khaki as well as turquoise). (Use code FFMARCH to knock another 20% off it; valid through 3/28.) Via Spiga “Scarpa” Double Breasted Trench Coat with Peplum
I love the color, but I am more inclined to think that trenches should just be in classic khaki…
I agree — The color is gorgeous, and I would love a shirt or sweater in it, but the only color other than khaki that I can see a trench working in, would be black
Disagree, but I would say trenches should be classic neutrals. I have a navy one that is fab…but I wouldn’t venture out to turquoise.
LOL @ the model’s facial expression.
seriously – could she look more hungover? She was not happy to be at work that day!
Yeah, talk about a sour-puss!
Haha! I just looked at the rest of the photos and they’re not any better.
She’s not happy to be wearig a teal trench either!
I love trenches in colors other than khaki. Khaki is one of the least flattering colors for my skin tone, so I try to avoid it next to my face.
I agree. I just saw a trench in a beautiful dusty pink. I am seriously thinking about going back to the store to get it.
I have a turquoise trench… love it and get a million compliments on it. It is outerwear… why does it have to be blah and match all the other neutral trenches everyone else is wearing?
Really? Huh. That thought did not occur to me … so I bought the turquoise color. Since this seems to be a not-uncommon opinion, I’m curious why so many people feel that trenches should be neutral colors only?
On a purely pragmatic level, I try to buy coats in colors that go with everything, hence, neutrals. I have one red coat that I love but rarely wear because it’s difficult to find something that looks right with it. Hence, otherwise, I have all black or gray coats (and my trench, which I find myself wearing 90% of time in the winter/spring now that I live in the Pacific Northwest, is black as well). However, really do want a dark purple coat–enough color to be fun, but I think I would have very few things that wouldn’t go with it.
Depends on which colors you love and feel great wearing! With my skin tone and wardrobe, trenches in dark purple, forest green, and deep red work better than traditional neutrals.
My every day coat is a purple Elie Tahari coat. I’ve been very surprised to see that it goes with basically everything I wear.
A trench coat (at least a well fitted, good quality one) is a major outlay — teal/turquoise is a trendy color… and it doesn’t go with everything. It also makes the coat much more casual than the classic tan or black
I love (and own) a good classic trench, and I guess I wouldn’t really call it a trench if it’s not khaki and doesn’t feature classic military details, but I think colorful trench-style coats look lovely and cheerful, if a bit trendy. It just depends on what look you’re going for.
Definitely more useful in classic neutrals, but fun coats are great to have in the closet, too.
Fun coats that don’t get worn that much shouldn’t cost that much… at least that’s my view (And I know that y’all may differ, and may have much bigger fun coat budgets than I do… in which case consider me envious!)
I get what you’re saying, but whenever I wear a trench (or a coat, anything that goes over my outfit) all you can really see is my legs anyway. So really it doesn’t matter what kind or color top you wear with your coat or trench. In which case I would rather have something bright and pretty near my face. But that could just be me…..
That was my theory and excuse for buying a bright blue coat! I get so tired of all my black winter coats by the end of March that I am really ready for some color.
I have a non-fashion related dilemma, and I could really benefit from the opinions of this community of experienced ladies. I am deciding where to go to law school.
I’ve narrowed it down to two choices: 1) My dream school, top 10 ranked, in a great city near family and friends, with a school culture and academic specialties that fit me. Only minimal financial aid, meaning I’d be looking at almost $200,000 in loans. They do have a pretty good public interest loan repayment/forgiveness program 2) My backup school, which is respected in my current city and has a strong alumni network here, but does not have a national reputation. They offered a scholarship that would allow me to graduate with about $50-60,000 in debt.
Thanks to my parents, I have no debt from undergrad, but I’m on my own for law school and I’m intimidated by the prospect of $200K in loans. I can’t see myself in BigLaw, and have aspirations to a federal clerkship and then a midsize law firm or public interest/government work. I don’t want to feel forced into a job I hate for money reasons. But I also want law school to be an intellectual experience, not just a means to a job, and the students and professors at my backup school would generally not be of the same caliber. Getting a job after graduation is also a big concern (of course!), and having gone to an elite college, I know that name recognition can open up a lot of opportunities and get you to the top of a stack of resumes. I could probably do what I want to do after going to my backup school, but on a smaller scale (ie, clerk for a city judge rather than a federal judge, etc), and I’m not sure I’m ready to circumscribe my dreams because of money. But then I think about that huge amount of debt…
I’m torn, and would appreciate any advice I can get.
Congrats on having choices! This is decidedly a happy problem to have. I am going to be graduating in a few weeks from a school very similar to what you describe as your backup. I will be clerking for a federal district court judge after I graduate, and I have two classmates who will be going from graduation to clerk for 7th Circuit judges. I also have several classmates who will be clerking for state Supreme Court Justices. So please do not feel like you cannot get a clerkship if you attend your backup.
I would not put myself into that much debt, but I also started law school married. So, it was not just me that I had to worry about. Maybe if I had the opportunity to go to Yale or Michigan I would have chosen differently, but I’m thrilled with where I am right now. I’m also thrilled that I only have $40,000 dollars of debt. My husband covered part of our living expenses, but all of my tuition and probably half of what we needed to live was covered by scholarships and loans.
In short I would say don’t rule out a local smaller school with a well established alumni network based on career opportunities unless you know absolutely that you do not want to stay in that community.
I will tell you my experience. I haven’t graduated yet, so take it for what it’s worth.
I elected to go to the smaller, lower-ranked school and take on less debt. My school is in the state capital, so that fact might make my experience different from certain other experiences (not knowing which schools you are considering). I have been ranked at or near the top of my class since the first semester, and that has allowed me to get great jobs all through school. Although I haven’t gotten to apply yet, I do not feel in any way hindered by my school’s rank in applying for federal clerkships. Tons of people from my school get them every year. None are SCOTUS clerks, but I know lots of fed. dist. clerks and a few who got gigs with the fed. ct. of appeals, as well as the state supreme court. That’s where the state capital thing is important — the alumni from my school are well-connected within our state since many of them chose to remain in the largest city in the state (and the seat of its government).
As for the academic part of it, there are going to be smart people no matter where you go. Lots of people choose to attend lots of different schools for lots of different reasons. There will be students anywhere that you wonder how they got into school. If you seek out intelligent, stimulating people, I promise you will find them. Even though my law school is not in the top tier of the national rankings, I have had an amazing intellectual experience.
If being near family and friends and having a certain name on your diploma is important to you (and those are all perfectly valid desires!), then certainly choose the top-10 school. If you want to stay in your current city and you love the city, then just know that going to a lower-ranked school is not going to doom you to a life of having daft peers and coworkers. I made the choice I made because I knew I wanted to stay in my current city; I love it here. Because I have worked very hard and been very lucky, I feel confident in my ability to find a great job here once this whole thing is over.
I did not go to a “Big Name” law school due to cost. Regardless, I found law school to be challenging, and the vast majority of the students were exceptionally bright. I worked hard, graduated in the top 10% of my class, and got a job out of school at a well-respected law firm working with many “Big Name” law school graduates. The difference – I do not have any law school debt, while they are saddled with that burden. I now work at a Fortune 200 Company, again, along side many “Big Name” law school graduates. Because I did well and participated in Law Review, my choice of school did not hold me back. Unless there is a truly compelling reason to go to a particular school, it does not seem worth all the debt to me. It may make the way a little easier initially, but if you do well, I think those obstacles can be easily overcome. I guarantee at pretty much any law school, you will find the studies intellectually challenging and the majority of students bright.
Someone with experience both in BigLaw and law teaching here. If you want a nonprofit job, go to the top-10 school, provided it has a good loan forgiveness program. It is hard for people to understand, but it is harder to get a good public interest job than a BigLaw job, and status matters for those jobs as much as in BigLaw. If you are thinking lower-key private practice (don’t know what you mean by midsize firm, but I’m assuming also regional firm), go regional. You will make connections there that will be of use in your region. As long as you really buckle down and get top grades, you will still keep your options pretty open. Good luck!
That’s funny that you say status matters for non-profits… I currently work at a legal services org., and have interned at 3 other similar orgs during college and law school, and there are just as many graduates from “top” schools as there are from low-ranked schools.
In my experience, non-profits care as much about dedication to legal services, experience, and interest as they do rankings and grades, if not more.
totally true re: dedication. top nonprofits generally have their pick not only of top grade getters at good schools, but also people who have worked their whole lives for the cause. they definitely don’t want to be your fall back plan if you can’t get the grades to work in BigLaw.
Congratulations! A tough choice, but not a bad one to have to make. :-) I guess my inclination is that a lot depends on whether you want to stay in the city you’re currently in. If you’re sure you do, that might not be a bad option. But know that it might be a lot harder to find work elsewhere – if you think you might want to move back nearer your family at some point, for instance, I’d take the top 10 school.
And, for what it’s worth, I took the higher ranked school and the corresponding debt load and don’t regret it. Making the payments is painful, but my school’s loan forgiveness program really does make it possible not to work in Big Law. And the greater range of jobs that open up to you is a great feeling. (Of course, those same jobs will be available to the top students at regional schools as well – it’s just hard to guarantee you’ll be one of them.)
Something else to consider: what are the requirements for the scholarship at the lower-ranked school and how many people keep them throughout law school? I’ve heard that some schools are fairly unethical about this, even going so far as to put all the scholarship students in the same 1L section so that the curve guarantees a lot of them won’t keep it. I’m sure this isn’t true for most schools, but it’s worth checking out.
I graduated in 2009 and in my experience and talking to a lot of my friends who went to my top ranked school, I am not sure any of us are particularly happy with the debt we took out to go to law school. There were a lucky few who got jobs at large firms and managed not to get deferred for a significant time or have their offers rescinded entirely. I’ve had limited luck getting interviews in my home state, even though the school I went to is better ranked than anything here. Other people from my class report similar experiences in other states. Most employers here seem to be very protective of the jobs that are available and prefer to give them to people from state schools.
I agree that one should check the scholarship requirements. Most of the decent scholarships I had required GPAs well above the top 1/3. I didn’t want to be stuck paying full price for a school the second two years because I wasn’t able to get a 3.3+ the first year.
Sorry if this appears twice- I attempted to post but it disappeared. Anyone else having this problem?
I went to a higher ranked school, graduated last year, and am still unemployed. Many of my other classmates are in the same situation. The school has no real ties to any local markets, so it has been very difficult for many of us to get jobs. I feel like a lot of us wish we had gone to cheaper schools since there aren’t as many jobs paying a salary that you need to make paying off the loans relatively comfortable. I have friends who felt lucky to find jobs that paid less than $40,000 a year who have loan payments exceeding $1500 a month. Our LRAP is not very generous and excludes many of the jobs that are now available at the state level.
If I had it to do again, I would choose a cheaper school that I knew would stay inexpensive even if I did not stay in the top 25% the first year. As v pointed out, you really don’t know how well you will do in 1L. I did very well in 2-3L, but did not adjust well to the 1L experience.
I would go to the top 10. If I had it to do over again, I would absolutely go to the best school you can. Even at a lower ranked school, you are looking at 130-150K in debt (I’m at that 150K for a 3rd tier school) so any law school will leave you saddled with a lot of debt. But the bottom line is this, Law firms are snobs. Just look at the job listings. They all want “top tier schools”…and what’s more, a top tier school has better connections to help you get a job than lesser schools.
I also went to a school in my state capital. Whole lot of good that did me. I’ve been out of school for 4 years and have been laid off from both the jobs I had and am currently unemployed (yes, with big fat debt)…
No school is a guarantee but I would take the better school over the lesser in a heartbeat. In fact, I wish I had.
I went top ten and am in top 20 percent of my class. No firm job, and just finally secured my summer employment (2L). I really wish I went to the school with less debt. Last summer (1L) year, I got a great internship in Boston, but everyone I was working with was from suffolk. The debt is terrifying, because there are a ton of conditions on that loan payback program.
I was fortunate enough to go to a top 10 school and had all the opportunities that come with it. I did enjoy it, and it was easy to get my clerkship and my first and second Biglaw job. But Biglaw is not a long-term career path for anyone who wants to have a life, and I frankly think you may be better off in the long run having it a little tougher earlier on, being forced to do more networking, and being forced to take a job at smaller firm where you may get to do more actual lawyering early on.
Did anyone see the post by the laid off lawyer on AbovetheLaw about how one laid off Biglaw lawyer, when asked to actually do things at a small firm, felt like a fraud because she’d never been given those opportunities at a firm? There is a lot of truth to that – at Biglaw your every move is second-guessed and supervised to a point where, in my opinion, it breeds passivity in otherwise bright and energetic lawyers.
As I said, I’m lucky – no loans – but even so I have not saved a ton while working at BigLaw because when you work 60-80 hours a week on work that is not very satisfying, you tend to spend a lot to make your life more convenient and to substitute for the pleasures of family and fun that you’re missing out on.
So if the small school has a strong alumni network where you want to practice, I’d go with that – and focus on positioning yourself well to communicate to people what you want to do and why. That should be just as important at small firms as your law school.
You seem to have a good understanding of the pros and cons of your choices. I will only add that if you want a federal clerkship, you will have to be much further toward the top of your class at the lower ranked school (potentially top 2% or so — especially depending on where you want to clerk [it is easier to get a clerkship somewhere no one wants to be too much, than say in DC or NY]).
Ultimately, if you work really hard, your choice of school won’t matter that much, and less debt is certainly a good thing. But figure out your specific goals because if a federal clerkship is high priority, then that’s a big if with the lower ranked school. Almost everyone comes to school with the goal of “working very hard” but not everyone is successful at it. It takes a specific skill set, and having a higher ranked school gives you a cushion in terms of how well you need to do.
That said, I have met people & professors from all kinds of schools (1st tier to 3rd) and surprisingly their ability to create “an intellectual” experience does not have all that much to do with where they went to school.
Good luck!
I don’t really think we have enough information. Is the backup school only good in the town its located or is it a regional school (several mid-tier midwestern schools do well in Chicago)? Is the backup school in the 10-30 rank or are we talking second tier?
I’m lucky that this decision was easy for me – the best school I got into gave me the most money. My school was not a top 10 school, but places people all over the country (but only the top 20% of the class). I’m now deeply greatful that I graduated with $70,ooo in debt instead of $200,000. Its giving me the option of leaving my high paying firm job for a much lower paying federal job.
Another option is transferring after your first year. You could take the financial aid for a year and then transfer up if you do well. This is a big assumption. If you go to the lower ranked school, no matter what, you need to be in the top 15% of the class. You will have a lot more wiggle room at a top 10 school.
I would go the regional school, at least for 1L, to see how you do… if you are at the top of your class, you can transfer to your top 10 school for 2L and beyond. If you are in the middle or bottom of the class… well, at least you haven’t sunk too much money into it to walk away. By waiting to see how you perform during 1L, you have more info on which to base a decision: to either (1) transfer to a better school for more $$$, (2) walk away after 1L with minimal debt, or (3) decide to complete the regional JD program and see what happens.
If you are worried about intellectual stimulation, you’ll get it at both schools. I went to a very highly-ranked undergrad, worked for awhile, and then went to a lower-ranked state law school (the only one in the area where I live). There are awesome, brilliant students and teachers at both high- and low-ranked schools, and an equal portion of stupid ones who just waste your time.
Also:
To the commenter from the high-ranked school who says that local markets are saving jobs for people from state-schools…. The students at my state school are saying exactly the opposite. I guess the grass is always greener. Bottom line = there are very few jobs, and folks tend to rationalize to make themselves feel better about why they didn’t get one.
Terrible advice. You’re already planning how she could drop out? Why not just go to the top school where she’ll have job prospects even if she’s in the middle or bottom of her class?
I might be alone here, but I think you should go to your dream school. Obviously, no matter which school you pick, you’ll make the best out of it and I’m sure you’ll have a fantastic and fulfilling career. Debt isn’t always bad, though. Sometimes it’s okay to take on debt for the experience, the prestige of the school, the quality of the education, the networking opportunities, the fact it’s your dream school, etc. Also, the degree will be with you your entire life. School is expensive, but it’s a great investment. You’ll be reaping the returns your entire life. From my experience, a Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc., graduate will stand out in the crowd just because of the school’s reputation. It may sound ridiculous, but the field of law is full of nerdy people who really care about education and rankings. For whatever reason, our first impression is that people who graduate with degrees from those schools are smarter and have a better education than those who went lower ranked schools (although people can prove us wrong). A top 10 school will carry weight no matter where you go and no matter where you graduate in your class.
This is coming from someone who did not go to a top 10 school and took on very little debt… so take it for what it’s worth.
I agree 100%. It is certainly possible to accomplish all that you want going to the regional school, but it will be much harder and your options will be much more limited. Interestingly, based anecdotal evidence from my group of friends it seemed that the top ten schools were much less competitive and had a far friendlier atmosphere among students than the regional schools.
As far as clerkships go, there are certainly judges who are connected to particular schools and will always hire from those schools. However, many federal judges (especially appellate) won’t even look at your resume unless you come from a top 10, maybe top 15 school. I’ve done a federal district and appellate court clerkship and both of my judges had this attitude. It isn’t fair, but they get so many applications that it’s the easiest way for them to sort through them. So if you go to your regional school, you will likely be directly competing with the top tier of your class for the judges that hire from your school. If you go to the top 10 school and do well, you have a good shot at almost any clerkship you want and will not be in direct competition with your classmates.
I agree completely. It is certainly possible to accomplish all that you want going to the regional school, but it will be much harder and your options will be much more limited. Interestingly, based on anecdotal evidence from my group of friends it seemed that the top ten schools were much less competitive and had a far friendlier atmosphere among students than the regional schools.
As far as clerkships go, there are certainly judges who are connected to particular schools and will always hire from those schools. However, many federal judges (especially appellate) won’t even look at your resume unless you come from a top 10, maybe top 15 school. I’ve done a federal district and appellate court clerkship and both of my judges had this attitude. It isn’t fair, but they get so many applications that it’s the easiest way for them to sort through them. So if you go to your regional school, you will likely be directly competing with the top tier of your class for the judges that hire from your school. If you go to the top 10 school and do well, you have a good shot at almost any clerkship you want and will not be in direct competition with your classmates.
Keep in mind that many firms will not look at your resume at all unless you come from a certain caliber of school, especially in this economy when fantastically well-qualified people are out of work. This is not just true of the Skaddens and Kirklands of the world, but also of many smaller and midsize firms. Neither the midsize I worked at previously nor the boutique I’m at now will look at anyone below the top 10 schools – despite the fact that a LARGE number of the partners did not go to such high ranked schools.
I can also tell you from experience that things are much more collegial at a school where everyone is relatively confident that they will get a good job even if they are not in the top 20% of the class. It’s really a different atmosphere if everyone in your class is trying to beat out 4/5 of their classmates for a limited number of opportunities.
Congratulations on your wonderful options! I chose the cheaper state school route, graduated in the top 10% of my class, and clerked at both the federal district court and federal appellate court levels. I’m now working at a Vault Top 20 firm. You can get great opportunities graduating from a lesser known law school, BUT I think you really need to be toward the top of the class to make that happen. Although most everyone in the top 25% of my school has gone on to great opportunities, some people in the lower ranks of our class don’t have jobs and are bitter about their whole law school experience.
If you go to the top ranked school, you may feel less pressure to do well because you have the benefit of having gone to a name brand school. For example, being a middle of the road Harvard or Stanford grad is probably not a deal breaker in terms of getting a good job. I went to a top 10 undergrad and so I know the benefit that a “name brand” school gives you. People assume that I’m smart, even though my performance in undergrad was quite average.
Another consideration is your local law school’s ranking. If the back up law school is in the Tier 3 or Tier 4, I would think twice. However, if it’s in the Top 50 and well respected in your area, that’s another matter.
I am so thankful that I took the state school route because I genuinely believe that I received a great education and have $0 debt. However, just know that you’re going to have to work harder if you choose the less prestigious school — but that’s not a bad thing in the long run.
Best of luck!
Totally agree about the perception boost – I know that my performance at my unexciting undergrad university was excellent and that my performance at Oxford for my postgrad was pathetic, but throughout my life it’s the upper second at Oxford that’ll turn people’s heads, not the first at the undergrad.
As far as which law school to attend, here is a link to OPM’s salary schedules so you can get an idea of what an attorney position would pay in different cities if you are interested in the public sector. In general, entry-level positions start at a GS-11, but you can progress upwards at a yearly rate, depending on the government agency.
http://www.opm.gov/oca/10tables/indexGS.asp
I’ve been working for the feds for 8 years and love it. I graduated from a lower-tiered school, but in the top 5% of my class. I had about $40k in student loans which is very manageable. I also work only 40-50 hours a week depending on what I’ve got going on. Going to a higher-ranked school will definitely open more doors, but $200k is a lot to keep in mind.
Congrats!! I echo a lot of what was said above, but I’ll add that I moved 12 hours away from family and friends. While it’s lonely, the ONLY people I know here are law school students. So it’s hard to go out and forget about the brief I need to write, etc. and I’m not distracted by getting to my cousin’s birthday party (and I don’t get grief when I skip it) instead of getting my work/studying/review done. Just a thought. Either way, it’s worth it. And good luck :-D
I would say it depends upon where you want to work. My law school was ranked lower first tier (and number one in my state) when I started, high second tier (and number two in my state) now. I work for a large regional firm that I guess would qualify as BigLaw (450+ lawyers). I had relatively low student loans and no trouble getting a job. Lots of people from my class did federal clerkships. I did a state appellate clerkship. The prevailing theory seems to be that the top 10% is the top 10% anywhere. It’s the middle that gets murky.
My law school is great in my state and region. I would not get national BigLaw jobs with it, and no one would get a SCOTUS clerkship with it. So, if you want to work in the state that your #2 is in, go to your #2 and do well. My guess would be it will have no impact on your career or your choices. If you want to do something more national or in another state, go to the school with name recognition.
I’ve been told that only a couple people from the Harvard class of 2009 had jobs starting last fall. In part, I think it’s because they feed into BigLaw, which has been butchered by the economy.
I’ve been told that only a couple people from the Harvard class of 2009 had jobs starting last fall. In part, I think it’s because they feed into BigLaw, which has been butchered by the economy.
This is not true (I’m not a graduate of that class, but I know a few people who were). An awful lot of people were deferred until January or later — many with stipends — and some didn’t have jobs, but an awful lot of people had clerkships, jobs that did start in fall, or non-big firm jobs as well.
I was the commenter from above talking about the class of 2009. While my school wasn’t anywhere near Harvard in terms of rankings, many of the students who did their summer associate positions at BigLaw firms got no offered, had their offers rescinded, or were deferred for over a year after graduation. I think it’s important to note that in this economy, not every summer associate is guaranteed an offer and summer associate programs in general have been cut drastically.
Even if you are lucky enough to get a big law summer associate position, there’s no guarantee that you’ll get an offer or get to start within a reasonable amount of time. I have a friend at BigLaw firm who had 10 associates set to start at her office in January. She was the one lucky associate who got to start in December, four started in January, and I think the other five either had their start dates pushed back indefinitely or had their offers rescinded sometime in November.
Congratulations on your options, and it sounds like you have identified the right questions to be asking! By way of background, I went to a top-5 school, clerked for a federal judge, and get loan repayment assistance from my school. I think the terms of the better school’s repayment assistance are important to investigate. Are you only eligible for assistance if you take a certain type of public interest job, or will a low-paying private job also qualify? Is there an income ceiling on assistance, or are you eligible on a sliding scale? (E.g., $75k might sound like a good income but the loan payments on $180k in debt will eat up a third of that pre-tax without any assistance.)
Obviously many people choose their backup schools because of money and have great experiences and careers. However, in all honesty, it will be harder — although not impossible — to reach your goals from your backup school than from a well-known school. Many federal judges, especially in competitive cities, don’t even review applications from non-top 10 schools unless you are literally first in your class. Grades will matter more, and less grade inflation will likely mean that your resume will “look” worse to a potential interviewer even if you are ranked high at your school. Making the law review will also likely matter more. If you choose your back-up school, then you are going to have to be determined to do as well as you possibly can. Transferring is always an option after your first year, which, assuming you get the grades to do it, might be a good compromise on cost and name value.
It’s nice to have options! For what it’s worth, my sister and I started law school the same year. She got a full scholarship to a state school with a so-so reputation; I got a partial scholarship to a private (expensive) regional school with a bit better reputation. She finished #4 in her class; I finished in the middle of my class…we both moved back to our hometown and went on to job share the same job (we’re both working moms) clerking for a state court appellate justice. The difference? She has waaaaaaaay less debt that I do, and I am jealous. My children will all be done with college before my husband (who went to the same law school) and I are finished paying back our school debt.
Having said that, I also have family members and friends who went to top-rated schools, did very well, and took BigLaw jobs for several years after law school to make lots of money. Now that they’ve paid back most of their school debt, they’ve moved back to our hometown to practice and raise families.
Doing something like this – going BigLaw out of school before moving to a lower-paying but more fulfilling job – may be an option for you. The risk with this plan would be (a) you might not finish at the top of your class at a top-tier law school (hypothetically!) whereas you might do better at a less prestigious school and/or (b) the BigLaw jobs won’t be there even for top-tier school graduates when the time comes.
It sounds like you’re considering the important factors and are on the right track. Good luck!
Would you be comfortable letting us know the specific schools you are choosing between, as well as the location you want to end up in? It could help flesh out the comparison and help us give you more tailored advice.
As other posters have mentioned, the biggest difference between the schools’ impact on your future is that the stakes for grades will be higher at the lower-ranked school. You will need to be phenomenal (at min, top 10%) to get where you want. I am a current 2L at a top 10, so I just went through the market. The market is brutal this year. Do not underestimate that. You want to give yourself every advantage, and frankly a higher-ranked school will give you that. But, you are going to need to work hard no matter where you go, based on the legal climate.
Additionally, if you are not in the top 25% of your class (where-ever you go), it will be important to be very involved in academic specialty programs (via clinics, pro-bono programs, school clubs, professers with connections, etc) to make your resume stand out. I am guessing that the higher ranked school will also have more of those opportunities. The probable is that being very involved can jeopardize your grades, so there is a trade-off between involvement and grades. I might suggest doing the following: 1) minimal-to-moderate work on extracurriculars during your first semester, 2) see how you do, 3) if you do very well keep your activities low and focus on grades but if you do only ok or so-so, then amp up your activities, tailor your focus in location (small markets), practice areas etc, and network with any one you can.
Finally, if you want a public interest/govt job, ultimately I think that higher-ranked school would be the way to go. Loan forgiveness programs will help make the debt manageable, provided that you are willing to be frugal for a good while. And the higher-ranked school will have the contacts and programs to better springboard you into the public interest / govt jobs you want.
Law school is a lot of debt. It is a huge committment. But provided you are very motivated, understand why you want to go to law school (and that reason doesn’t involve get-rich-quick schemes or delaying the real world), and are prepared to work hard and be frugal, taking on the debt will be worth it to achieve your goals.
Caveat: I am not a lawyer, but I am in grad school, if that helps.
Debt sucks. It just does. Any time you can avoid owing lots of money, you should. I think when you’re starting out, you tend to focus only on the rosy pictures – graduate from school, get a fantastic job, find an attractive successful partner, have a great career and pay back the money with no problem. The thing is, life doesn’t follow a script. You may not get a job that will enable you to pay back the loans without living on a shoestring. You may fall in love with an artist, or a teacher, or someone else who is not on the fast-track to big bucks, who may want or need additional schooling of their own. An idiot could hit you and total your car the day after you pay it off and drop comprehensive coverage. You may have an unplanned pregnancy out of wedlock, or wind up pregnant with triplets. You may buy a great house that suddenly needs new plumbing and a new roof in the same year. Any time something doesn’t go perfectly, debt is there, hanging over your head like a sword waiting to fall. The smaller the debt, the less nights you spend awake worrying. Also, big debt narrows your choices. How will you feel if the perfect house comes on the market, and you’re ready to buy, but you can’t afford the mortgage and your loan payment? Or if you need a new car, and you can’t get it because you can’t swing a car payment? If your partner wants to go away on a great vacation for your 5th anniversary, but you don’t have the money? How will you feel if your child has to go to a substandard school because you can’t afford a private education, because of your own student loans? $200,000 is not an abstract number. There are “opportunity costs” to everything. $200K is half the cost of a decent house or condo, 5-10 vacations, private schooling for one child pre-k through 12. Do you want to work to pay back your debt, or do you want to work and still be able to have a life? It may seem like a faraway set of decisions right now, but these kinds of life choices will be in front of you before you know it.
You can still have wonderful, rich experiences in school and not mortgage your future to get them. It is much less about where you go as what you do and your own drive and motivation to succeed. A name school is good but in the end, it is just a name. There are many people who graduated from nowhere and are extremely successful, and people who probably graduated from top places and went nowhere. Sorry if this seems harsh – but I see way too many younger women (and men) leveraging their future happiness against an expensive degree, and as someone with life (and crisis management) experience, I can tell you 100% – it is not worth it.
Not harsh A, well said.
Um, HELLO:
If you can not find a JOB with your law degree from a lower ranked school, you STILL won’t be able to afford ANY of the things you mentioned!!!
Yeah, but you will be 40k in debt as opposed to 200k.
Agreed. If you have $40K in debt, you have the option to work at a non-law job (if need be) and you’ll still be able to make your loan payments. $200K in debt pretty much ties you to Biglaw, because nobody else is going to pay you enough to make your loan payments.
I recommend taking on less debt! I was in a very similar position to you and I *foolishly* opted to take on the debt because I thought that I “might regret” not attending a well-known school.
Tounge in cheek, I will share with you that I am 1.5 years out, and I am quite certain that I would actually be able to “splurge” on high fashion items posted on this site had I just taken the school that offered me a significant scholarship…
I am at a mid-sized firm and am compensated well (not quite big firm, much better than a non-profit). Nonetheless, I will never get used to my gigantic loan payment (even though I have about 20 years to mull it over)… Thus, I just wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
It is a truly personal decision, and I wish you well!
Good luck. I went to a shmancy top tier law school, but was lucky to have my parents pay for it. It was great. Great teachers, great alums, great network, and no matter what I do people definitely think I am smarter than they would otherwise because of that pedigree. (I live in an area where more lawyers went to schools like your backup school.)
Its hard to say, and it seems like you have a good handle on the pros and cons, but I am thankful all the time for the networking and opportunities my shmancy school gave me. Plus, I LOVED law school and I think in part it was because I had such great teachers. Not that your backup school wouldn’t, but with so many people hating law school it seems worth it to check on the quality of the teaching. Three years is a significant chunk of your life. Good luck. let us know what you decide.
An advantage of a “regional” school is that they can have not just a great reputation within the region, but also great connections. For me personally, my law school (from which I’ll be graduating in May) is smack in the middle of the area I grew up in and want to practice in. So going to my regional school was the best decision for me. I’ve meet tons of attorneys and judges, many of whom would go to bat for me for a recommendation or job.
A difference I’ve observed between top tier law schools and lower tiers. One of my best friends from college goes to a top tier law school. Her professors are brilliant wrote some of the top treatises in their subjects. My professors practiced 10-20 years before coming to teach and can provide insight into how what you learn translates into real-life practice. While her school emphasized writing skills, she admitted to me she had never received much instruction on what to do in court. The crown jewel of my school is it’s clinical program – I spent a semester working at the local prosecutors office prosecuting actual cases.
While I’m not trying to deny that a name is important (and my school’s name carries weight within the state, though not necessarily nationally), you have to figure out what’s important to you. Is it the name, the region, or the experience? I’d suggest (if you haven’t already) do tours of the respective schools or talk to some alumni to get their perspective on their experiences at each school.
And, for the record, I have never regretted going to the school I go to now. :)
I agree with taking less debt. I’m graduating in May from a very highly ranked law school with a lot of debt and have yet to find a (purely) legal job and I have a number of friends in the same boat–I think it’s freaking out our career services office. I’m lucky enough to have a backup political job that my lrap will still cover if I can’t come up with anything strictly “legal”, but I regret not taking a scholarship at a slightly lower ranked school. I went into this with the “well, it’s a really great school and I’ll probably get pretty good grades” (both true) “and can therefore likely get one of these high-paid firm jobs.” Um, yea, no one expects a global economic meltdown. Take the scholarship.
How old are you? Not to be intrusive, but I had a similar decision to make. Ultimately you have to decide for yourself, but I started law school at 30. I opted for the lower cost top tier school and have no regrets. Had I been straight our of undergrad, I might have gone to the more expensive school, but it any case, I didn’t see my career suffer based upon the choice, except perhaps when I first came out of school. Again, still ended up in BigLaw, then fled BigLaw etc… LOL. I also knew that I’d want to have my children, and wanted as much flexibility as possible…. The conventional wisdom says go to the very best school you can, but the legal job market, and the very real prospects for 3 years from now say go to the place where you can get the best education for the least amount of debt because you really don’t know what the market will look like in the next 3 years. Another helpful rule of thumb is to not take on debt that is more than what you can reasonably expect to make in your first year out of school….barring a clerkship of course….
Also, keep in mind that it is hard to know now whether being in the top of your class is a realistic plan. My law school, for example, was full of people who had never gotten less than an A before. Well, now someone is going to get less than an A. Also, depending on what you did for your other degree(s), law school may be a lot different. It’s just hard to tell if you will be good at it or if you will have to bust you butt just to get by.
Agreed. Most people I know at law school were the top of the top at everything until law school, and some of them are having a very hard time dealing with the fact that they no longer are. There is a curve – MOST people get Bs. It is not the end of the world, and there is no guarantee that you will be in the top of the class.
To OP – negotiate those scholarships. I didn’t and I regret it. Call each school (or better yet, go there) and tell them you are strongly considering the other because of the money/prestige and blame the economy. See if they can remove the scholarship restrictions and/or add more. If one bites, come back with that info to the other. If you can work your way to 50% or more at the top tier school, go there, but you might also be able to finagle 100% tuition with no grade restrictions at the lower school.
I was dumb and did NOT do this, so I have a full scholarship but with a (reasonable) grade restriction. I made the mistake of assuming there is nothing more that they could give me. One of my friends has no restrictions on her scholarship. Guess which one is less stressed.
A $150k difference is real money. Think about the job you WANT out of law school, find out what it likely pays, and do a monthly budget for your life based on carrying that much debt.
I took on $40k to go to a better school. Have a great job at a great firm. I likely would be at exact same firm if I had taken the marginally lower ranked full ride. When I pay my debt each month, I remember that, but I am happy with my choice. I went to the school I loved and I loved law school.
I went to a top-5 school, and I’m paying off $165,000 in debt. I graduated in 2008, and I work in BigLaw (on the west coast). I’ll tell you what I tell everyone who asks me about law school: it’s a business decision. I know it’s tough, but in this economy, with the legal industry changing the way that it has, it needs to be a head decision, not a heart decision. So thoroughly investigate loan repayment; find out what a midsized firm in your city pays associates; and very critically, don’t assume at any point that you’ll be at the top of your class. Law school is full of the smartest kid at XXXXXXXX College. Make your assumptions based on being in the solid middle of your graduating class, and work from there.
I have never regretted choosing the school I did–it’s opened amazing doors for me and the intellectual experience was fantastic. But I knew I was going to take the six-figure job.
Another thing you might want to consider is whether you can negotiate for better scholarships with your first choice. If your second choice is respectable in terms of rankings, Admissions might reconsider their financial aid package if you tell them how much School Number 2 is giving you.
Go to the less expensive school. If you don’t currently have school debt, it may be difficult to imagine the enormous pressure that a heavy debt load gives you. My story: I want to a highly ranked law school that did not offer financial aid, turning down several full ride offers to do so. My rationale was that I was going to do public interest work and would qualify for loan reimbursement or public-interest job forgiveness of some sort. I graduated in the middle of my class, after working my butt off. I got divorced along the way, so the second income I’d counted on the help with loans evaporated. I applied to 70 public interest jobs as graduation neared and was not offered a job at any of them – this was not unusual, as only 40% of my graduating class had jobs at graduation due to this economy. for me, it meant I wasn’t eligible for any reimbursement programs. Many of my loans (including the gov’t ones) came due immediately upon graduation. My minimum payments are thousands a month. I finally got a job, but after minimum loan payments my take-home income is $12,000 a year. The debt affects my ability to visit my family, my ability to take time off for vacations, my ability to quit my current crappy job, my ability to have kids, to buy a house …
Ditto what everyone has said about thinking very very very carefully about taking on $200K in debt. Let me tell you, as a graduating 3L without a job, I am extremely glad that I went to my well-regarded, but not super-prestigious law school for free instead of taking on a mountain of debt to go to a T-14 school. Things may be better in three years, but I wouldn’t count on it.
Don’t worry about the intellectual experience; law schools everywhere draw bright students and work is always challenging. In fact, as someone who always easily got great grades in school/undergrad, it was really humbling to realize how smart my classmates are.
You need to decide what your real priorities are. Do you want the best chance to be the best lawyer possible and have the best job opportunities out there? Go to the top school. Do you want to stay in your current city and have a comfortable family-oriented lifestyle but, most likely, not much prestige? Go to the backup school.
I should point out that 50-60K debt is nothing to sneer at, and it’s better to have $200K with an almost guaranteed job and a good loan repayment program if you go into public interest than to have $50K and be unemployed for a year following graduation and no loan assistance when you finally do land a job. Personally, I’d go to the top 10.
There is no such thing as an almost guaranteed job.
Seconded. That might have been the case in 2006 or even 2008, but not in 2010.
Additionally, what makes a lot of those LRAPs so great now is that they have enough money to fund the few people who do take on public interest positions for the long-term. What happens four years down the road when 5x as many people are taking part in the plan and money is starting to run out?
yeah, id like to second that I’m in a top 10 school, and only 30% of my class has firm jobs, and the rest had to work really hard to get any job, and some still have NO JOB. and that 200k? its a 8% interest rate, it turns into 300k real quick.
Going to a higher ranked school does NOT necessarily give you the “chance to be the best lawyer possible.” I have met very talented attorneys who went to all levels of school and I’ve met some terrible attorneys from T5 schools.
Anecdotes are not data. How many SCOTUS justices and V50 partners went to tier 3 schools?
Did she say the choice was T1 vs T3? That is different, but she could very well be talking about T!-T20 and T1, and I’d then submit that you’d find lots of partners in that space if not SC Justices. And the court references are really only relevant if that is her goal. A more relevant space for this type of analysis would be for the poster to look into the space where she wants to build her career and see where the folks excelling in that space went to school, if she thinks that is relevant.
Another point the OP needs to remember. Where you went to school is only part of the equation, and it is relevant primarily when you are first starting out. After you establish yourself as a performer, which should be evident in your resume… where you went to school will only be relevant to people who are elitist, and chances are you won’t want to work with them anyway.
Also, be careful not to equate top ranking law school with “best” lawyer…. I worked with folks who’ve come from top tier schools who were awful lawyers, and from 4rth tier who were very good….
Also depending on what where her current city is, there may be plenty of “prestige”, except possibly from those who think prestige is equal only certain schools and certain locations…
Congratulations on your acceptances!
I understand that money is going to be an important part of this decision, but I have 1 suggestion that might make your choice a little clearer. Have you gone to visit these schools? I think going to visit, getting a tour, trying to hang out and talk to some of the students can help. Different schools have very different feels and you will be spending 3 years of your life surrounded by these people. I think it is important to find an environment where you will thrive.
I got my J.D. at a lower 1st tier school and I’m now getting my LL.M at a higher ranked one. The environment where I got my J.D. worked well for me and there was a true sense of community. There is less of that where I go to school now and I miss it. Honestly, I’m happy that I’ll only be here for 2 semesters.
Clearly money is an important factor in this decision, but do consider other factors.
If I were you, I would choose the lower ranked school with less debt, provided that the lower ranked school is within the top 40 or so. See how the first year goes, then apply to transfer to a higher ranked school if you have good grades. I did this and it worked really well. Make sure that you will be happy with your school just in case you aren’t able to transfer, and make sure you work incredibly hard the first year and stay focused. If you do really well and are happy with your current school, you can generally leverage your option to transfer for additional scholarships.
If you don’t do well, then reevaluate your decision to go to law school. If you hate law school or are having second thoughts about your career with so-so grades, it is better to leave and find something you like rather than sink further into debt. At that point the first year is a sunk cost, so don’t get caught up in the false logic that after you finish 1L year you have to graduate. May be harsh, but the legal world isn’t all that nice.
I agree with this assessment and it closely aligns with my experience. I decided to go to the “well-regarded-in-the-midwest” state school (top 30) rather than some more prestigious (and expensive) options. I didn’t get a scholarship going in but in-state tuition made it drastically less expensive anyway. After my first year, I was in the top 15% of my class and asked for a scholarship. I got my first year basically wiped off, plus they covered the loan I had taken out to study abroad in my school’s international program and then work at a foreign firm for the rest of the summer (invaluable experience). At that point, I thought hard about transferring but since I knew I was going to be at the top of my class, I decided not to for cost reasons. During OCI, I had tons of opportunities to go East/West/Midwest BigLaw (even during the crisis), and I chose the Chicago office of a highly-ranked international firm where I had a great experience. During the next two years I’ve raised my GPA a bit more to be in the top 5/10% and I’ve gotten some more scholarships.
All in all, I have no regrets about my decision to take the lower-ranked school option since I’m ending up in the same position I would have been in with 150K in debt from the more prestigious school.
BUT, and this is a BIG BUT: my choice was a HUGE risk…one that I didn’t fully appreciate when I made it. It worked out for me but it could easily have gone the other way with a few bad placements on the curve during my first year…
Good Luck with your tough decision!
Not being at a big name definitely makes things harder in terms of jobs, and you need to study REALLY hard and get the very best grades you can at a “lower” school. I went to a much lower-tiered school with a full scholarship and got lucky and got a big firm job. What I failed to realize when deciding to go to the less competitive school was just how hard it would be to make the grades – I studied 24/7 (not to mention had been a straight-A student at ivy league schools before law school) and I still found it very difficult and stressful. NOT the cake walk I thought I’d have when going to a school that was really a major “safety” school. My friend went to a school (not a Top one, but an average school) WITHOUT a scholarship, got a mediocre job, lost her job in the recession and now is filing for bankruptcy – all those student loans, piled onto all the credit card debt she was forced to accumulate to pay for books, suits, transportation, etc, just did her in. I earn $160,000 per year and it is STILL hard to pay off the loans I have (even with a scholarship, I still had loans for living expenses/books/etc) since NYC is such an expensive place to live – rent is insane, plus transportation expenses, plus purchasing a new wardrobe for a big firm is VERY expensive – you cannot go in wearing cheap clothes. It is MUCH harder than I could have ever imagined. Keep in mind that if you pay $$$$, it is NOT easy to get out of debt. I don’t think there is any one right answer, but I hope that sheds a bit of light on the pros and cons of both options.
I have a slightly unique experience with this issue. Both my husband and I are in law school right now. I’m in a top-10 school and he’s in the regionally respected smaller school, and I’ll be graduating with a lot more debt than he will. Here’s how our experience so far has differed:
We plan on staying in this state, and he definitely has the advantage over me. Since my school is a national name, there aren’t as many alumni in this state as his school has. He has a lot more networking opportunities that I have to work harder to create.
However, we both feel I’m getting a broader legal perspective at my school. His focuses on the state’s version of property, torts, etc. He rarely learns about larger trends in the legal community, whereas I get the full perspective of what’s going on the world. He finds this frustrating, and doesn’t like what he thinks is a contentedness with a smaller perspective amongst the faculty, and, at times, the students.
If your interested in public service, that’s really going to depend on the schools you’re looking at. My school has a really good loan forgiveness program, and focuses a lot on helping out the students who want to go into public interest work. My husband’s school doesn’t have quite as strong a program, mostly because its students don’t graduate with as much debt.
On the clerkship issue – my school has a really strong federal clerkship program. I know many students who interned with judges during their 2L year, and many who are clerking either with district judges or federal appellate judges as graduating 3Ls. My husband’s school has very few students who do that, but many who clerk with the state Supreme Court.
Hope this helped! Ultimately, go with where you think you’ll be happiest. You may change your mind about what particular career you’ll choose, but your law school experience will definitely be the next three years of your life. Good luck!
I am not a law student, but I am going through something similar for Master’s programs right now, so I hope this can still help.
To me, I have to go with my gut, and find a place where I fit best and will be happiest. I have never done something because it looks better, and even for something as important as school, I can’t see myself doing it. In my experience, your education is what you make of it. If you work to get a top-10 experience at a lesser-known school, it will shine on your resume and transcripts, as well as in your one-on-one experiences. I go by this rule full-throttle. Hope this helps, and good luck! Yay for choices!
I started my law school career at William and Mary Law (which is a highly regarded “public ivy” and the oldest law school in the country). I hated it with a passion. No offense to the school, it is great for some people, but I didn’t want to be a lawyer to work BigLaw and that seemed to be the only career path discussed. That or clerking for a year and then working BigLaw. I withdrew at the end of my 1L year to take some time to reconsider my chosen path and almost didn’t return. I headed back to the town I went to undergrad in, and found a job working for a solo practitioner. After a few months, I remembered why I had wanted to be a lawyer in the first place. I decided to return to law school, but I didn’t want to move again, nor did I particularly want to return to W&M. Fortunately for me, a brand-new law school had opened in town during my year off. I was accepted immediately, and joined the 2L class the next fall. The school definitely had some bumps along the way as the administration learned along with the students, but we obtained our provisional accreditation from the ABA, and the school is looking forward to the permanent status after a few more procedural hoops. I graduated last May as a member of the first class, and passed the bar on my first try. I had so much more opportunity to work on REAL projects with actual clients and local attorneys than I ever would have had at my first school, and I feel like I learned so much more. The smaller, newer school was much more focused on actually making sure we learned how to be lawyers, not just how to take law school exams and make good grades. Also, even with a tiny first class (63 students I think) we had a very active student body that created many organizations and worked on dozens of service projects. The school requires a few pro bono hours in order to graduated, but almost everyone went above to requirements. In fact, the administration even hands out awards to the students who put in the most service hours, which I think is a fabulous focus for a school to have.
I encourage you to weigh all the pros and cons, not just the financial portion. If you feel like the first school will be better for you, then you will find a way to pay, but don’t overlook the benefits of the smaller school just because it isn’t in the top ten. Whatever your decision, I wish you the best of luck!
PS- the school I graduated from is called Charlotte School of Law in Charlotte, NC.
Super tough question… worse than any bar exam question. Ask yourself these questions: 1. How do you really feel about school debt? If you get a more prestigious degree and do get a job you like, will it bother you that some one you went to high school with, who you never considered bright, started a company and has a huge nice house and three luxury cars while you are paying off school debt? 2. How would you feel if you applied for a job and were not hired because some one who was not really more qualified, but who went to a more prestigious school, got the job? 3. Would you spend your whole life wishing that you went to the better school? Another thing to consider is that the economy has really hurt 2009/10 grads… but in 3-4 yrs, things might be different. Have you visited both schools and sat in on a class or two to get a feel for them? That might give you some insight. There are smart people everywhere- and there are people with economic success who are intellectually … uhm “low level.” So, I think you need to really try to assess what would make you happier. If you can’t come up with a preference, maybe either choice would work out for you.
I’m very happy that you ultimately enjoyed your law school experience, but I could never recommend anyone going to a law school that is provisionally accredited by the ABA. It’s hard enough to get a job from a top school, much less a school that lacks accreditation. The people I have met who went to such schools ended up working as a solo practitioner because they couldn’t find jobs. I’m sure some people went on to good jobs, but law school is to expensive to take such a risk. Plus, my understanding of non-ABA accredited schools (at least in California) is that you are required to practice in the state where the school is located and cannot work outside of the state. That’s a HUGE disadvantage — what if your partner wants to move outside the state, or what if you find a great career opportunity across the country?
Sorry if this seems harsh, but I have seen too many people going to unaccredited/provisionally accredited schools and really regretting their decision.
I agree – I walked away from a full ride at a school that is notably recruited from when its acceditation was having issues. Even a free law degree from a provisional school can be very expensive….
I can practice in any state, presuming I pass the bar exam in that state. The provisional accreditation allows that. Some states (California included) don’t require that you attend law school at all, or they have rules providing that you are not required to attend a school that is accredited in order to sit for the bar. However, my state, as well as most, require graduation from an ABA accredited school, and that includes provisional accreditation. It is also a many year process for the school to get permanent accreditation, but CSL is making fabulous progress.
Additionally- is there something wrong with going into solo practice? That was my long-term plan even before I began law school, though upon graduation I was lucky enough to have a husband who was making enough to support us both so that I could start my own practice immediately. I have a partner joining me in just a few weeks as well.
Really, the point of my story was to tell the original poster to make sure she considers her long-term plans and how the pros/cons of each school can help/harm her life goals. Just because you might not chose solo practice doesn’t mean that others are settling for it because they are unable to find other employment. Not all of us go to law school to obtain a prestigious job or make more money than our neighbors and high school friends.
Hi Sarah,
I think going solo is fine, but my sense is that it is very tough to go solo right out of law school because you don’t have expertise in anything yet and it’s hard to attract clients given that you’re so new to the practice of law. The people I know from non-ABA accredited schools are going solo because they have no other choice, which sucks. Going solo should be a conscious decision, not a last resort. I had a professor who went solo and is one of the smartest folks I know, so I’m not dissing it, I’m just saying it helps to have some years under your belt and THEN go off on your own.
Have you tried to negotiate for some scholarship money from the the top-1o school? I got some extra money from a couple top-1o schools by showing them the packages that their peer schools (and those slightly lower) had offered me. Worth a shot anyways.
Some additional advice that I thought of-
1. If you would be planning on using the higher-ranked school’s loan repayment program, inspect its terms very carefully now. The top-10 schools generally have good programs but very different income caps, different types of jobs that qualify, and, for example, mine only lets people in during the first 2 years after graduation — if I leave biglaw after 2 years and then take on a very low-paying gov’t / PI job, I can’t get into the loan repayment program. Also on mine I think you have to pay back the “forgiven” amount if you leave the low-paying job before a certain amount of time.
2. Not all biglaw jobs suck and are unfulfilling. You may actually enjoy one, esp if you are at a nice firm (they do exist in biglaw) in a dept that you like doing work that you enjoy (again these do exist!). So remain open to all options, even those that are frequently put down.
3. Paying off loans while in biglaw isn’t as easy as it seems. I started out with like 100k and after 1.5 years I’m pretty sure it hasn’t moved much. I’m making more than the minimum payments every month but the last 2 years there were no large bonuses to put towards the loans (like in prior years, people did that, and could wipe out big chunks of their loans in one payment). I’m also nowhere near as frugal as I thought I’d be (after living on a student budget for my whole life, it’s kind of nice being able to splurge on the things that make my life more convenient). (And full disclosure, I have no idea what I’d do if I had to make this decision again; I had a partial scholarship to a top-10 school, that I took, but also full scholarships to top-20 or 25 schools, but I really don’t know if I’d go back and take those — the “prestige” gap really is enormous and can be the difference between getting a foot in the door and not.)
4. None of us can predict what the economy will be like in 3 years from now (but surely there won’t be a 2nd global meltdown, right? Personally I think/hope it has to be better…) So although you have nothing else to go on, try not to assume that in 3 years the legal market will be exactly like it is now. Or at least don’t make this the primary consideration.
5. Top-10 schools do have practical programs, clinics, etc, just like the regional schools. Or at least mine did. We also had an incredibly involved student body and a very agreeable administration, which resulted in a thousand different orgs for you to join or start, and what really seemed like a thousand different opportunities for you to carve out your own path to being a lawyer. My school definitely didn’t feed everyone into biglaw, but did feed people to both SCOTUS / appellate feeder judges as well as top human-rights positions (ICJ or something?). So I guess the point is that the opportunities at a top-1o school may be broader than those at a regional school, no matter what your focus, and are not confined to Biglaw stuff. But the OP should really check out, in detail, what exactly her possible schools offer, considering that she may not exactly know at this point what she wants to do in 3 years.
Good luck!!
I feel your pain. I had to choose between the local top-20 school and the local third-tier school (which has an excellent reputation in the state). I chose the third-tier school, which gave me a full scholarship, and ended up with no debt. However, even though it has worked out for me in terms of (1) getting a job as an IP litigator at the biggest firm in the metropolitan area (which is what I wanted) and (2) getting a federal clerkship, I have questioned my decision.
I don’t question my decision because I think my legal education was inferior in any way. I had the pleasure of attending classes taught by incredibly bright and interesting professors and attended by extremely intelligent students at my law school, and, honestly, some of the externs we get in chambers now from the top-20 school do such a poor job I can’t imagine ever hiring them. I question my decision because attending a third-tier school made it more difficult to do things simply because I attended that school.
For example, I aspired to become a law professor, but that is pretty much an impossibility because of where I went to school. And I know that it would be a lot more difficult for me to get a comparable position at a law firm outside of the upper Midwest. I’ve also seen openings for in-house positions where they list “degree from a top-25 law school” as a requirement. So….I won’t be working at those companies.
On the other hand, I have no plans to leave this area because my husband and I are settled here, and I know that I can succeed and become a partner at my future law firm regardless of where I went to law school. (Not saying I’ll make partner, but it won’t be my law school that holds me back.) My practice area is patent litigation, and I think it helps that I have a BS and MS in engineering. So for me, the third-tier school/no debt option has worked out very well. That doesn’t mean it works well for everyone.
It depends. Do you plan on remaining in the same region as your backup school (so you can take advantage of its reputation and alumni network)? Have you figured out how strong the federal clerkship program is at your backup school? How many of each school’s graduates actually get the type of job in which you are interested? Will you be going into a practice area where school name doesn’t matter quite as much? Is the backup school a top 50, or a fourth tier school? Do you have any interest in academia?
I’m just rambling now, but hopefully this is somewhat helpful. My last thought is that $200,000 in debt seems absolutely crushing to me. I know it isn’t uncommon, but I would think paying it off would be incredibly difficult if you’re looking at public interest/mid-size law firm work.
Congratulations on having options, and good luck!
I’ve been waiting for this thread! I’m looking for some advice from Corporette readers. I’m a recent law graduate, just wrote a paper that was published in a well regarded specialty journal. I’ve got teaching aspirations in the subject matter of the paper. I’ve been given the opportunity to present that paper at a faculty workshop lunch at a school that is looking for a faculty member in this precise field. I’ve got some professor friends there and most are attending, I’m also doing multiple practice presentations (though unfortunately none before professors because of my current physical location). It’s not a job presentation but I think it helps that I’m Latina and very passionate about the (usually thought as ‘dry’) subject.
In any event, I’m at a total loss as to what to wear! I’ve got a nice navy pin-stripe pant suit that looks good, a few black wool dresses I could wear with a suit jacket, and of course, the ubiquitous black pencil skirt + jacket look. Any ideas?
Oh, and hair down or up? (my hair is quite long and I usually straighten it to look more “polished”) Any suggestions?
I say work the navy pantsuit. I think you want to go for a very professional but comfortable look — you don’t want to look like you’re there for a job interview, but you do want to look like you know what you’re doing. Ideally you look both so professional and comfortable no one notices what you’re wearing. Same for the hair — whatever is both normal-looking for you and professional. I would think that would mean up, but maybe not if it makes you look too “school-marmish.”
I think the navy pantsuit is a good call, but maybe use some different accessories/colors to give it a bit more personality (a non-whit/neutral shirt underneath, an interesting necklace, etc) so it is a little less “interview-y.”
As for the hair, do you tend to play with your hair? Does it often fall in your face? If so, then I would clip it back or half back. If not, leave it how you are comfortable – I know that I personally hate having my hair up, so if it is up I usually feel weird.
Hair up makes me look like Sarah Palin (if straight) or much older (if curly). I like the look but with my glasses sometimes I think I look a bit too “serious secretary.” When I straighten it I don’t play with it in formal situations so I think this might be my best bet, I was just afraid that it being long was perceived as “sexy” as I had seen that comment before on this site. I could go for the low ponytail but it really doesn’t flatter my round face.
I just realized I don’t have appropriate accessories (good shoes, bag) for my navy suit. They’re all basically black or brown. I’m starting to think I’m overthinking this :)
I think black accessories look good with a navy suit, so I wouldn’t let that deter you. Brown seems to make it a little less dressy though.
Having long hair myself, I don’t think it’s necessarily perceived as sexy. Now if you were to do lots of volume and barrel curls, then it may look sexy. But simple and straight, you’re probably fine. And as yourself and another poster mentioned, the key really is to make sure you’re not playing or fussing with it during your presentation. Nothing says, “don’t take me seriously” like a woman twirling her hair.
Can you do a half up, half down look? I find that that is often my best bet. It gives me a look similar to having my hair down while keeping it back and out of my face.
I’m Latina too and I vote for wearing your hair up. For Latin women especially, long hair makes us look young and I think for a teaching position you want to look mature as possible. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
Just wear something that won’t distract from your presentation – you don’t want your hairstyle or heels to be the audience’s focus. Wear your hair however you are least likely to play with it nervously, and the navy pantsuit sounds good.
Go with whatever you standby hair style is — If you know you can get your hair straight and looking good then go with that, if you know that up looks fine, then go up — Having it not look right will just stress you, and it shouldn’t matter if is up or down as long as the ‘up’ version isn’t a prom hairstyle. Navy pantsuit sounds good — just make sure you’re comfortable – and wear shoes that you can stand in for while you’re speaking.
Hi
I think the navy suit so you’re more confortable walking towards audience, moving around etc.
Also I am dark skinned and one of the tips I found great when I make a big presentation is to wear a bright scarf or other accessory close to teh face.
That bright item attracts the attention to your face as you speak.
I hope that helps a bit.
Well, I’ve been in private practice for 30 years; name brand undergrad and state law school. Never regretted it for a minute. Made lifelong friends at law school and they’re still around. Many of them in great positions, us atty, fed judge, state atty gen. Graduating without financial burdens gives you lots more freedom than if you are burdened with debt. If you wanted to teach or do big law, I might tell you differently but I practice on my own now and have been in a firm as big as eight lawyers and in that kind of environment, having gone to a big 10 school is meaningless. And you can be in Best Lawyers in America etc etc from a state law school–I am. Good luck and congrats on having two great choices.
Was your state school Maine? Just curious as I also graduated there and don’t regret it!
Yes, came to Maine in 1973 to go to law school at Maine and stayed to practice. Still here.
I would say to suck it up and attend the top 10 school. Yes, the loans will hurt a LOT, but your job opportunities really will be in a totally different universe coming out of the top 10 school v. the backup school.
I was in your position, and chose the top school. Despite the debt, which sucks, I thank my lucky stars that I will always have that pretigious name on my resume when I look for work (currently at the same law firm I summered at). In contrast, I know a girl who went to a lower ranked but well regarded urban law school. She is ranked #2 in her class, and still hasn’t found a job. Firms who used to take a few from her school (as they did in the boom years) now do not come at all.
I would even go farther and say that you should not attend law school at all unless it is a top 20 school (even that is stretching it), unless you have family money and/or connections to get a job after graduation.
I will throw out a different perspective. I went to a Tier 1 school, but not a T20. I was admitted to a T20 school, but for personal reasons, chose the lower ranked school. I graduated with no debt in 2008, and had two big firm offers. I realize that is not what you are going for, but if biglaw, with its concern for prestige, would make an offer to someone who attended a school outside of the T20, I think you will be able to find a job in the area in which you would like to work, and a clerkship that you would enjoy.
I am currently employed in biglaw earning a great salary… and I.hate.it. Because I have no debt I am free to (and currently am) pursue other avenues of employment. My friends with six figure debt do not have that kind of freedom. While many women on this board seem to enjoy their biglaw jobs, I will say that from personal experience, most associates do not. I would never advise anyone to make a decision that would lock them into that lifestyle. It’s tough to know if you are going to enjoy it until you are in the middle of it.
If you had big firm offers coming from a lower ranked school, you graduated in a growth economy and did fantastic in said law school. Nobody knows ahead of time whether they will be ranked in the top 10% of their class.
Going to a highly ranked law school does not lock you into a Biglaw job. There are repayment programs (school and employer based) that many of my classmates are using to avoid working in Biglaw. I work in small law, at a lesser salary with a lower hours requirement, and I am making my payments, living well, and saving $$ just fine.
I graduated in 2008, so not a growth economy, but not as bad as the current economy. I started work in September of 2008.
I did well in law school, but I wouldn’t say I did fantastic. I was on law review, and just outside of the top 10% of my class.
I realize that loan repayment programs are available, but I personally wouldn’t want to be tied to a particular job or type of job for 10 years to repay student loans. I went straight through law school from undergrad and didn’t really know what it would be like to be a lawyer. My advice would definitely change for someone who had worked a while and knew that they would enjoy their career as a lawyer.
I will provide another perspective. I went to a non-top-20 school, because their focus on my specialty and reputation in that area of law was excellent. I practice in that area of law, and have done so for 15 years. The connections to others practicing locally in that area are excellent, the alumni network is great, and I graduated without too much debt.
If you want to go into the AmLaw50, do go for Top 20. If you want to clerk for a Federal Court or Supreme Court judge, go for Top20. Otherwise, it’s not that important.
Wow. Don’t go to law school at all if not top 20? I graduated from a Tier 1 school in the midwest in the top 10% of my class. I have a great, fulfilling, well paid job at a large firm. I haven’t lost my job, had my pay cut, etc. In short, I’m doing better than a lot of my Top 5 school counterparts. There’s a whole world of lawyers out there, and not all of them went to a top 20 law school. Seriously, show of hands, how many SCOTUS clerks do we have here? I get that people have aspirations, but I have an actual job – that I love and that pays me well into the six figures.
When did you graduate? The market now is worse than it has been in years, and who knows how much better it will be in 1-3 years. No one said it was impossible for non-Top 20 school graduates to get a big firm job, but these days those jobs are MUCH more scarce than they used to be, even for Top 5 grads. I don’t know the % of students at non-top 20, Tier 1 schools who historically got big firm jobs, or who get them now, but I can’t disagree with the statement taking on debt to attend a non-top 20 school without a post-grad plan for repayment is not a prudent financial decision.
I would attend the top 10 school. Yes, the loans will hurt a LOT, but your job opportunities really will be in a totally different universe coming out of the top 10 school v. the backup school.
I was in your position, and chose the top school. Despite the debt, I thank my lucky stars that I will always have that pretigious name on my resume when I look for work (currently at the same law firm I summered at). In contrast, I know a girl who went to a lower ranked but well regarded urban law school. She is ranked #2 in her class, and still hasn’t found a job. Firms who used to take a few from her school (as they did in the boom years) now do not come at all.
I would even go farther and say that you should not attend law school at all unless it is a top 20 school (even that is stretching it), unless you have family money and/or connections to get a job after graduation.
I would also really caution against those who say “I went to state law school 10+ years ago, and I’ve had a great career!” I have no doubt that such posts are well-intended, but calculus for getting a job for you will be vastly different from more senior people who, if they did not graduate during a growth period, at least got to work during a growth period. I wonder a lot these days if people from our generation will ever know what it is like to work during a period of economic stability.
Borrowing 150k to go to, say, Columbia, may make sense. Borrowing almost nothing to go to, say, University of Alabama may also make sense. Both choices have merit.
But I would NOT borrow heavily to go a school outside the top ten or so, be it a “first tier” like GW or not. (If your family can pay without debt, totally different question.)
The number of smart, interesting, hardworking contract and staff attorneys I encounter with six figure debt from “good” schools and no job security is heartbreaking. Schools outside the top ten or so who encourage their students to take on six figure debt border on the unethical. There are always individuals for whom it works out, but it doesn’t make sense for most.
For the record, I took on lots of debt to go to a lower-end top ten school, clerked for a federal judge in a second-tier city, and paid off the majority of said debt in a few years at Biglaw. It worked out well, but only because I tolerate Biglaw. Would do it again if economy was what it was 5 yrs ago. Not sure I would now.
I have a question for those of you who are in business casual environments – Do you ever wear cropped pants/capri length pants in the summer? If so, do you limit yourselves to a certain fabric/color/etc.? I’ve been discussing this with a friend who is about to start a new job, and we’re torn… Thanks!
I don’t usually, but that’s because I’m short with short legs. But I would, if I found ones that I liked. I would stick with black or navy in a good fabric, not lighter colors like khaki or white.
Also, especially if you are new to the office – maybe wait to see what other women there wear before wearing capris? Or, if you get friendly with the women there, it’s okay to ask, too.
That was my vote – wait and see — she’s debating a major closet purge, hence the early discussion
We had this discussion the other day. Surprisingly, my boss wasn’t against it. We are in Texas and we know heat. However, it would have to be more business looking than beachy. I did find a pair of capris that were dark gray with pinstriping. I still don’t know if I’d wear them into the office or not. Maybe if I was going to travel that day.
Before law school I worked at an accounting firm in Texas. Accounting is one of the most conservative sectors, and the dress code reflected it. The managing partner specifically disallowed capri/cropped pants, as well as sandals. Even in July. One of my fashionable colleagues always got comments for wearing red pumps, and the only time in the history of the firm that people were allowed to wear jeans was in conjunction with a day where people were allowed to wear a shirt representing the local university because the team was in the Sweet 16 for the first time.
@Shayna, I’ve seen it around my office, I work in financial services, and the women normally wear the same fabrics that they do with pants/skirts. I personally don’t wear them. I.dislike.capris. Your friend may want to wait and check out what’s happening in her office specifically before she goes out and purchases some for herself.
I work in an office with a “corporate casual” dress code. I have worn black cropped pants in the fall with tall, black boots. I haven’t felt comfortable wearing them in the summer with that much leg sticking out – but that may just be my personal preference.
You know, I often wonder what people mean when they are talking about Capri pants. When I think of them, I think of Audrey Hepburn and Mary Tyler Moore’s– Ann Petrie character. I think that those in a conservative color and fabric would work in a business casual environment.
Lately, it just seems that mass producers of ready to wear have completely distorted the shape and length and now we have those unfortunate, dowdy “capris” that you usually see worn by middle- aged suburban housewives. And those are completely wrong.
Lynette – yes, the term capri’s meaning = all over the map, I see it used for a lot of pants that are really very different. I live in the south and have about a dozen different non-full-length pants for casual, which is fine when I’m on my own time, but I’d like to find out what counts as a non-dowdy option when I’m out in the world. Length? Shape? Tapered leg? Straight leg? Thanks.
Its amazing what clothing companies produce … I always thought ‘capris’ were akin to ‘peddle pushers’ a la 1950, but it seems that they end just above the ankle… as a short woman its not a good look on me, but my friend is blessed with long legs
I work in a non-profit arts organization and lots of people wear capris/cropped trousers, including myself. I have very long legs and love the cropped look as it can be tough to find regular trousers that are long enough. I always stay with tailored styles (i.e. no patterns, dark fabrics, no trim) but with a kitten heel and a wraparound blouse I think it can make for a professional business casual look.
But I agree with other posters: your friend should take the temperature of her new office before wearing anything that might look too casual.
Yes, I do wear capris, but I wouldn’t have worn them on my first day or even first month of work. Tell your friend to wait and see what other women wear.
I limit myself to flat-front, non-denim styles from the same color palette I usually use for regular pants or skirts. I don’t wear anything that looks sporty or casual.
From the other commenters’ posts, I take it that capris are apparently just fine in many business casual offices. They absolutely would NOT be okay in my office, unless you were in on a weekend. Wearing capris to the office would be only one small step above wearing cut-off shorts. I would strongly advise staying away from something this casual until you suss out the office culture.
In my office basically any style that would be ok if it were pants is ok if it’s capris or even long shorts. So cargo capris no; tailored linen-blend capris yes. Obviously not ok if you’re going to court or a big meeting, though.
I wear these, but I am short, so really they are like ankle pants for me. I wear hose and sling back kitten heels… conservative colors like black, charcoal gray…maybe ivory with a tweedy linen jacket. For me, there isn’t much skin showing. It was OK for Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.
Shayna
My office is biz casual & I have worn cropped pants that hit just above ankle, but they’re in black/navy/grey dress-pants fabric (i.e. wool blends etc) , not in casual ‘khaki’ fabric. I make sure I wear them with closed-toe pumps, RL/BB’s slim fit button-fronts (untucked as I’m short waisted) plus some classic jewellery. In other words, everything about me is reasonably formal, except for the pants length.
That makes sense — Keep it dressy across the whole outfit
Hello
I work at a business casual office. For my job profile, I have to dress a bit nicer because I meet external stakeholders.
I am not a fan of cropped pants (I hate them). But there are two extremes that I like:
– Ankle length pants, these with ballet flat, especially when you have lovely ankles are simply gorgeous, classy and understated. This is a look I could pull off.
– Long shorts, but for this you have to be very careful, I like it when shorts are at the knees but everything else if very polished.
Other than that, I can’t wear any lengths in between, it just looks too casual.
Again, this ankle length and long short trend works for my body type and anything else looks casual, but it might be different for your body type.
I think capris are appropriate for young girls (under age 18). I don’t think they belong in the workplace even when masquerading as the bottom half of a suit. I’m not a terribly conservative person but this is one trend that I can’t get on board with in the office. Pants that fit well and are hemmed to the appropriate length for your shoes are the best bet, business casual or not. Capris look lazy to me– even on shapely 25 year olds who wear them with blazers or cardigans in an attempt to look professional.
I completely agree. I have an irrational hatred of capris in general, but I would never, ever find them appropriate for the workplace.
Yup, gotta back up K on this one. I don’t think there is an office on earth where capris are appropriate. Also, I just plain dislike them. They make even the most gifted of figures looks squat and short. Irrational? Maybe, but I said I was backing up K so at least I’m not alone.
I agree too
I hate capris but I like ankle pants with flats for teh office, but they have to be very classic and the overall look should be polished.
Otherwise I just feel like I am going on a weekend.
They are pretty much the norm in my part of FL for all age groups. I’ve had job interviews where the interviewers were even wearing capris with flip flops.
I remember at least one place I summered had capris listed as part of the summer dress code (assuming you weren’t going to court). I think one Friday I was brazen enough to wear those knee length shorts that were really popular in 2008 (they were in a black suiting material).
MelD, just to statisfy my own curiousity (if you’re willing to tell) – what part of FL do you practice in?
I think the same area as you (based on what I can gather from your name). The place I summered in 2008 had a real issue getting people not to wear shorts and had to keep sending out emails reminding people what the difference between shorts and capris is.
Wow… I’m a little jealous of those flip flop wearers… I can’t imagine wearing flip flops anywhere but the beach or to run errands on a Saturday
I hate them too. They just look weird in an office environment. If you are hot, just put on a skirt. The worst, though, are those fall/winter capris that women wear with knee-high boots. Completely bizarre look, can’t believe how popular it was fall 2008. Thankfully didn’t see as much of that this past fall …
jcb: Capris with boots leads to split skirts which leads to gauchos. Eek. Ca 1970s. Do not like.
Those weren’t capris. Those were “cropped pants”. (and no snark intended by my post)
I am 5’11” with super-long legs, and I work in Silicon Valley, which is admittedly more casual. Women in my office (biglaw firm) have no problems wearing capris in summer. They are a June-Oct thing only though. And I always wear them with cute flats. Frankly, I look polished and am showing a lot less leg than I do when I wear a skirt. I usually wear JCREW cafe capris or similar–a neutral color (navy, knaki, black, gray) and a cute blouse on top. It’s professional enough given the weather and who our clients are (VCs and entrepreneurs and Valley exects who are also wearing khakis)!
I will say that loose-fitting or casual capris (like cargo capris) are WAY not appropriate. And sorry to say this, but capris really don’t look good on everyone–don’t wear them if they accentuate your bad points. It’s not flattering, and it won’t come off well.
I also agree that “capri suits” look entirely stupid.
Also stupid – short sleeve suit jacket and short sleeve heavy knit sweaters (I’m talking about the heavy bulky knit ones)
Cropped wool pants with knee-high boots was hot hot hot around here in 08/09 and I wore the look myself, many times. Don’t knock it till you try it. I like that look way better than skinny jeans tucked into UGGs, which I saw everywhere this past winter, and on some body types that were not built for it.
I hate the UGG fascination here in the Northeast… they make normally normal sized feet look like they’re part bear… not attractive!
I hate the UGG fascination anywhere. I can’t help but think they look like mangy dogs.
I’m going to a CLE (at a resort in Florida) and the dress code is resort casual. I usually err on the professional side of clothing choices at CLEs (generally suits), but I don’t want to seem like I don’t understand dress codes. What is resort casual and professional?
When I hear resort casual, I think bikinis!
In all seriousness, though, I would say it sounds like suits are out. Something like linen pants and a nice top, maybe, or a nice somewhat summery skirt and top combo? Pack a structured cardigan for the cold A/C in the conference rooms.
Also, is this just a CLE or also a lot of professional networking? I know you don’t want to show up with a million suitcases, but if you can throw in one suit as a back up and a mix of other more busienss casual clothes, you can put together a couple different looks to suit the room.
Wear tropical colors, and don’t show too much skin. Try colorful tops with your existing neutral pants, skirt, or (longer) shorts. Sandals are fine; jackets probably unnecessary.
You might want to shop when you get there, as it’s hard to find real Florida (or Hawaii) business casual anywhere but there. If you can snag a copy of the state or city magazine, the ads will give you a clue. Have fun!
I think not-too-much-skin is the key here. Which helps with avoiding sunburn, so, good. FL seems to be more colorful than most places, even here in SoCal you don’t see much color in business clothes, but I see no point in buying a lot of new clothes just for one occasion, so, your usual neutrals should be fine. I love linen, but the ironing, oy.
You can probably also look at a Lilly Pulitzer catalog just to get ideas. Conservative shapes, fabulously bright and sunny colors.
Not too much skin – I’m thinking tunics or more modest tanks with crisp linen pants and flats or sandals if you have a pedi.
Careful with tunics… if you’re not tall or at all heavy they make you look like you just wandered out of the Woodstock reunion… regardless of how crisp the pants underneath are.
I’d carry along a linen jacket just in case you need a cover up.
Agree — or a cardigan (one that doesn’t wrinkle so you can fold it up into your bag)
I work in engineering and our dress code is business casual. That being said, the only women I’ve seen wearing shorter pants/capris are administrators…and maybe architects.
I have a question about plastic surgery, of sorts. Most women at my firm and in my area do not wear hose or tights with skirts/dresses in the summer. But I have a bunch of spider veins on my legs that I am very self-conscious about. I feel like a frumpy freak wearing hose in the summer, so I only wear skirts and dresses in the colder months (with tights). In the warmer months I just wear pants to work, but it can get hot and miserable. (I do wear shorts and skirts on weekends because I don’t care so much if my friends and family see my gross veins.) I’m thinking of having the veins removed (via laser or some sort of shot). But it seems so vain and is a lot of money for something so petty. And, does it actually work in making legs look better? Any thoughts?
Are they spiders or varicocities? Spiders are flat and tend to be very small, while varicocities are lumpy and larger. The intervention for spiders is much less invasive and costly. Spiders can be removed with injecting a sclerosant into the vessels (they are capillaries). Varicocities need an operation to remove, and this tends to be more painful and take more of a recovery.
Do you have a good friend who can assess your legs honestly? I have spiders that I think are noticeable but my friends do not.
The other thing to consider is that by nature these are recurrent, due to the fact that the physiology isn’t take care of (venous insufficiency in the superficial draining veins of your legs). You may get them back after five to ten years, especially if your life style is prone to exacerbating them (prolonged standing, multiparity).
I don’t know how pale your legs are — sometimes self tanner can minimize the contrast of the veins against your skin (I have very pale skin so I know!!). If you’re serious about it, I recommend talking to a vascular surgeon who can assess you, educate you about your options, and be able to take care of either problem.
They are spider veins, I think? They are quite big, like varicose, but I can’t feel them – my skin is flat and they don’t protrude? I realize they will eventually come back – I got my first ones at age 16 and have been getting more ever since. (My theory was that I get them because I always cross my legs at the thigh while sitting?) Even if no one else notices them, I do, and I really feel uncomfortable with them. I’m 36 but they make me look 86! I was thinking plastic surgeon, so thanks for suggesting vascular surgeon.
Hazel, if it would make you feel better I don’t think it’s vain at all. I tried botox once. I had just turned 40 and was feeling so so SO old. Honestly, it didn’t make any difference in my looks. And 6 years later, I still feel better. It was the best $300 I’ve ever spent. If what you want makes you feel better in your own skin, then you should try it. Maybe the $300 made me realize that feeling old was all in my head. I don’t know but I’m really glad I gave it a shot. (oh boy, sorry, for the bad pun, I didn’t mean that….but you get my point).
Agree — I don’t have children, and still plan to (maybe? If Mr. Right shows up?) so having the veins that are on my legs excised now (and the other little leftovers from when I was fat) would be foolish since being pregnant would do it all over again… but when I’m done having kids, absolutely. Not vain/silly at all… its your body, you deserve to love what you see in the mirror :-)
I’m 41 and have been thinking seriously about botox. I’ve got that frownie thing between my eybrows. I think it makes me look mad. My other wrinkles don’t bother me . . . yet. But I am afraid if I start with that wrinkle then maybe I will start to obsess over what is now only my second-worst one.
I think that, even if the veins do not present a medical problem for you and the removal would be purely cosmetic, if your doctor advises you that the procedure is low risk and you can easily afford it without taking on any debt, you should do it. You wouldn’t hesitate to have a tattoo or even a scar you didn’t like removed or covered, so I don’t know why the veins are any different.
Of course, if the veins do present a medical problem, you should not feel vain at all about having them removed.
To the law school hopeful- first you might consider whether law school is even the right path. I wish I’d worked as a paralegal to discover that it wasn’t for me before law school. 10 years later, I’m finally transitioning into work I like. On the schools, I did option 2- scholarship/lesser school, and don’t recommend this unless you want to stay in that city for sure. I left, and it was highly difficult to be taken seriously in cities with higher ranked schools. I was unemployed at times and had bad, low paying jobs. It was awful. It might work out better for you as many posters above indicate it has for them, but just know it can be really, really hard and a huge investmet of time/money to have to struggle with. What people above said about nonprofits/government caring about top 10 is true. While clerking at a nonprofit, I accidently saw some recruiting materials for paid jobs (mine was unpaid) and they were top 10 only. It is brutal out there in the desirable areas. Also the lower schools grade on lower curves, so you’ll be doubly penalized with C’s or such while the top tenners have all As and Bs potentially- and when a top tenner is hiring, they won’t know about this difference (or care) to give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway- I thought law school was very interesting- but wish I’d just gotten a job and not wasted those years of earning power instead. Only go for the lower school if you can benefit from a targeted, well-executed plan of networking then staying in that community. Best of luck!
I work for a nonprofit and, for the most part, someone who didn’t go to a top-tier school is not going to even get an interview, unless maybe if they’re an experienced attorney with 10+ years’ relevant experience.
Weird Q, but I have been bothered by this for a while. Does anyone have any tips on getting a closer shave? I usually use Schick Intuition (with the soap attached) and have tried others too, but I always have a row of stray hairs or stubble left on my legs nevertheless.
Sounds silly, I know. But please help!
Nothing silly or weird about a shaving question, ever :) I’m looking forward to the answers, too. I just use whichever disposable was on sale, in the shower, time-consuming, but it works. Hair conditioner as shaving soap, it’s a little slippery and doesn’t dry out my skin.
That’s so funny! I didn’t think that anyone else used conditioner as shaving cream! It’s so great and makes my legs soooo soft afterwards.
I also put a glob of conditioner in the water when I’m having a nice soak in the tub. I love to do this, but with dry skin, not so much. Used to use baby oil, but it yucks up the tub more than the conditioner does.
Ditto on the hair conditioner — I was getting little bumps on my legs from shaving, experimented with every kind of shaving gel before I tried my Pantene conditioner and that cleared it right up. I also switched to Gillette’s Venus razor, which is dreamy.
for shaving I usually use shower gel or condition and whatever throw-away razor is on sale – but I make sure to put a heavy coating of lotion on my legs the night before (assuming showering/shaving in am) and the water+lotion mix really helps me get a good close shave w/o razor burn or leaving fine hairs.
My $.02 is that women’s razors are terrible. I have never had one that was worth the money it cost me. I finally bought the same thing my husband has – a Gillette 5-bladed razor – and I have never had such a close shave, ever. I love my Gillette and will never go back. It’s this one, BTW:
http://www.walgreens.com/store/catalog/Razors-and-Blades/Gamer–5-Blade-Razor—Precision-Trimmer/ID=prod5537364&navCount=1&navAction=push-product?V=G&ec=frgl_&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=sku5536231
Yes!! Exactly what I was going to say. One day I ran out of Venus blades and borrowed one of my husband’s Mach 3 blades and have never looked back. Women’s razors suck.
I stopped shaving and started using Nair and couldn’t be happier. I only have to do it once every six weeks. Caveat-It can be strong so make sure not to leave it one for longer than 10 minutes.
I’m a fan of the sensitive skin Nair — I think the one I buy may actually be intended for bikini/facial hair removal, but I use it on my legs without issue
For me, this is connected to “How on Earth can a person with very dark hair and very light (and insanely sensitive) skin get away with not wearing panty hose in the summer?”
I have tried a lot of brands of razors and the schick one that the OP mentions is the worst. The blade is spring-loaded or something and encased in soap… so the soap prevents you from really getting close to the leg–the blade only gets as close/presses as hard as the spring lets it. And the spring doesn’t let it get close enough, hence the stubble. Go w/ a simpler razor.
I agree completely. I had the worst stubble with that razor and whatever crap they put around the Venus gave me a chicken-pox like rash all over my legs that was even worse. I prefer men’s razors because they are a) cheaper and b) don’t have any of that crap that can cause irritation.
Veet. Or Nair, whatever brand of depiliatory you prefer. It removes the hair at the root, and unlike waxing, you don’t have to wait until it grows out to remove it again. Using a depilatory weekly should solve all your hair problems.
I have very sensitive skin, and I use Veet in the green tube designed for sensitive skin and remove it with an old washcloth rather than the plastic scraper. I never leave it on more than 5 minutes and I shower afterwards, and it’s never caused skin problems.
Might sound gross, but I wait for the hair to get longer (at least a week maybe? I don’t know). Softer hair is more easily cut, and I *NEVER* get razor burn or the bumps, etc. But if you mean missing that row of hairs next to your shin bone (or wherever), I try just go back a few minutes after shaving while I’m in the shower and can usually find those.
I don’t shave – I use Veet instead. You get much smoother skin than with shaving, and no razor burns.
Wax!…. I do a half leg wax, once a month….
For my $.02 — some of the best money I ever spent was on laser hair removal for my lower legs. love it! it’s not all gone, but what’s left is so barely noticeable that i haven’t shaved my legs in at least six months.
I use a body scrub on my legs firs, then wash away with warm water before shaving. Legs get incredibly smooth!
I use a reasonably inexpensive razor with replaceable blades. It is purple and I think schick? I have had it since high school and I love it.
I had a friend tell me a few years ago that when she needed a really good shave (ie bathing suit time) she would exfoliate her legs first with some body scrub. I have tried it, and it works wonders! I generally use St. Ives Apricot scrub, but I am sure anything good scrub will work. It gets all the dry/rough/dead skin off so the blade has a nice smooth trip down your skin, as close as possible. It does wonders for the ingrown hairs under my arms too.
I also second the using conditioner as shaving cream idea- it really helps if you get dry skin, which I do horribly in the winter.
Also- I have pretty sensitive skin, and this doesn’t irritate it at all. Just don’t be too forceful with the scrub, think gentle thoughts.
Men’s razors. For sure.
On Veet/Nair… I have never tried them. Do they really work? What about the hair that is darkest on your body and/or around the bikini line… I heard that the only work for the lightest, finest hair. Do a lot of you use them?
I have dark hair and it works everywhere, including the bikini line (but be very careful not to get it too close to any delicate parts). I use Veet in the green tube and leave it on about 5 minutes, and rub off with a wet washcloth. Sometimes there’s one or two stubborn spots where I have to put a second coat on.
Use men’s razors. And not generic/store brand, sadly. Any of the brand-name men’s disposables/semi-disposables will work much better than the women’s brands. Also, I’ve found that after I shave, if I run the water in the tub really hot, almost as hot as I can stand it, and shave again, that gets a really close shave. It’s like I get goose bumps or something (temporarily) from the hot water, and it results somehow in a closer shave. Or maybe it’s just the twice over with the razor.
I use a men’s razor–the Mach 3. I get a really close shave and have only cut my legs shaving once in the past 8 years (and I was in a hurry and applying way too much pressure).
I am curious to know how you ladies approach the issue of student loans, particularly because, as a government attorney, I’ve begun to suspect that the Public Service Employees’ Loan Forgiveness program is too good to be true. So I’m interested in finding out what other Corporette readers (the strong following of government attorneys like myself, nonprofit sector ladies, Biglaw/business readers whose perspectives are still very helpful, and current students who are getting this stuff figured out) thought, not only of this specific program, but of how best to approach the student loan burden in general.
My main source of stress re: the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program: what if a new Congress wipes out the program sometime over the next 10 years??!!
Other general questions:
—Under the repayment plans that qualify one for the forgiveness program, the tantalizingly low monthly payments (designed to be so low in order to help us while we earn less than our private-sector counterparts) do not even cover the interest that is accruing on the loan’s principal balance! If a borrower loses her qualifying job a few years into the 10-year period, the borrower’s loan balance will actually have increased, and the government won’t be forgiving a single penny of it, making those first few years of payments a complete waste.
—The choice as to what repayment plan to select actually requires a lot of contingency planning for life scenarios (such as marriage and children) that the borrower may not know how — or whether — to plan for. For instance, if one is married and filing tax returns jointly, the spouse’s income will be counted, and the borrower may not qualify for the IBR based on that, which takes us back to my point above. Who knows whether a borrower who is happily single in 2010 might need or want to file a a joint tax return in 2018?!
Apologies for the length of this post, but many thanks in advance to anyone who wants to weigh in!
Yes, I have the same concerns you do. And yet I’m on IBR, because I couldn’t really afford my payments and keep my current apartment on any other plan. I guess I will not get married until 2018, assuming Congress hasn’t scrapped the plan. Sigh.
Don’t forget, though, that you get your loans forgiven after 25 years on IBR even if you aren’t in public interest employment. It was the same with the old income contingent plan. So it’s not like your payments would have been a waste, even if you switch to the private sector.
I work for an exempt org., and I’ve opted to keep up the regular payments because if I leave (I have about 3 years in at this point… and it only counts time served from 2007 on), then you’re behind, like you said (and my faith in the continuity of Congress for that long isn’t too high)… BUT
My student loans are only $96/month, so I’m guessing my cost/benefit calc is different than yours
(full disclosure – not an attorney, accountant chick here, and that only covers undergrad… I paid for the Master’s out of pocket until I got to this job which paid for the remainder)
I’m a law student, but I always remind people when they bring up the public service repayment that it’s 10 years. Not 9 years and 11 months, or 8 years, or whatever else. When you choose a law school you may feel really dedicated to the public interest, but you might find after one summer that it’s not for you. Even when you graduate you might see it as your calling, but so many people get burned out after a few years, or find something that they think is valuable that doesn’t qualify.
I honestly would never tell someone to count on that plan for their long term planning. Of course, if you are considering doing a year or two of a low paying public service job, it might be great. Even if it increases your overall loan, that might be worth it to you and a low payment allows you to do that.
I choose to go to a lower ranked school to cut my debt to just $70,000 combined. Now, that’s nothing to sneeze at, but it means that with a 30 year plan my payment can be less than $500, and I’d feel comfortable accepting a job paying $35,000 a year. Today, I’m glad I made that decision. Though I’m at a top 60 school, and have high grades I still don’t have a job. I can take ANY job I can get and afford it – public, private, high paying or low, etc.
Well, it’s not really 10 years – it’s 120 months of payments on a qualifying plan while in qualifying employment, not necessarily consecutive. My calculus was different b/c I graduated before the forgiveness program and IBR became available, but I can stay on the IBR plan even if I go into the private sector or even am unemployed and get my loans forgiven after 25 years of lower payments, and if I stay in the public sector it’ll be after 120 months of payments instead. Students considering taking on debt shouldn’t forget that they’d have lower payments for 25 years and then forgiveness even in the private sector.
I’m on the IBR, used to be on extended payment plan. Under the extended plan, I paid about 400. Under the ibr, my payment is around 200. I was dismayed to learn that since I’ve elected the IBR, if I ever want to switch plans the ONLY plan option I have is the standard plan, with payments of well over 1000 a month. Never would have elected ibr if I knew that was the case – now I’m stuck. And, I have to actually pay more than the ibr minimum every month since it only covers about 1/2 my interest payment, and nothing towards principal. Such a scam – gov’t loans at 7% when the federal rate is at – what – 0%?
I don’t understand. Can you provide more info. I was thinking of switching to IBR. I can afford my loans now at about $1200/month but I was wondering if it was in my benefit to switch, save more money now, and if they aren’t paid off in 25 years get the forgiveness. Why would you pay more than the minimum if they will be forgiven? I understand paying more than the minimum on regular debt to get out of the debt.
I hope to one day earn too much to qualify for the IBR, plus I’m not confident the program will stick around – so that’s why I pay more than the minimum just in case either of those occur. I wanted the option of paying lower amounts some months when expenses were tight, and paying higher amounts when I could.
Oh, I didn’t know you had to earn less than $35k. I currently earn $75k so I wouldn’t qualify then. I thought there was a plan that was x percent of your income and I thought that percent would be less than I currently pay now.
Blonde Lawyer – there’s no upper limit on income for IBR. Not sure where the poster above got her income of. You pay 15% of the portion of your AGI that’s more than 150% of the poverty line,
http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml
I don’t understand why you’re paying more than the minimum. Wouldn’t it be cheaper in the long run to pay the minimum until they’re forgiven in either 10 or 25 years?
I pay more than the minimum because I hope to one day earn more than $35K . I’m not always going to qualify for the IBR plan, and I don’t want to end up owing more than I started. My IBR plan doesn’t even cover the monthly interest.
Exactly. The issue SL has described is what I was getting at in the OP when I said — though it wasn’t as clear as SL has made it — that payments under the IBR could be pretty much a waste. If you owe more than you did at the start, and then get kicked off the IBR for making too much, you’d have been better off paying larger payments (if, of course, that were possible in your financial picture) all along.
Also, it’s worth noting that 25 years of income-based payments doesn’t always turn out to be cheaper than 25 years of standard payments such as those one might make under the Extended Graduated plan. Over the life of the loan, because of that accruing interest, sometimes you end up paying more in the long run. Depends ENTIRELY on your income, which dictates what your payments will be under the IBR.
Thanks so much to everyone who responded. Though there’s no golden ticket answer, it helps to get others’ perspectives and know you guys are going through many of the same decision processes.
I’m not sure why you think there’s an upper limit to the IBR plan? As far as I know, and according to all available information, there isn’t. You could make so much that paying 15% of your income over the poverty line is no longer the most favorable payment, but in that case you could just switch to the standard plan.
http://www.finaid.org/loans/ibr.phtml
I’m confused about the upper limit too. I know that there were recently some changes and I don’t know how the old plan worked, or if people who graduated before this year can get on the new system.
I do know that for current grads, the rule is that your IBR payment won’t ever exceed your standard 10 year payment (and maybe your standard 30 year payment).
I do think I’ll be going to some sort of financial advisor before I make any decisions when I graduate. Consolidation, public and private loans, and all these payment plans are very complicated.
On belts… I love the belted waist look, but I am petite, and I’d like to find some skinny waist belts that I could wear for work or casual weekends (nothing too shimmery/jazzy). I’d like to wear them over looser shirts and dresses. Does anyone have any suggestions?
My black skinny belt with a silver-tone buckle came from Target and I wear it all the time. Other colors were available and I’ve often thought of going back to pick up more. I’ve worn it on dresses, to replace the original belts which are usually cheesy, and also over light knits. I haven’t done a looser shirt, but I imagine that’d work fine. For what it’s worth, I find that the neutral colors get a lot more use than the brighter or more embellished belts that sit in my closet. you are petite.
Oops — posted too soon. What I was going to say was: You are petite so the skinny belt probably will be the best bet, but it still might be worth trying on a wider belt to see how it looks. If you have a longish torso proportionately (like I do), a wide belt tends to balance that out.
Ann Taylor has some great ones.
I don’t know if my post with link to the belts I like will be approved, so I’ll post this again.
Shade has come great leather belts for only 10 dollars. Just Google “shade skinny belt” and it’s the first thing that comes up. They are very skinny, though.
Thanks guys!! These are really good options.
And here is a follow up question: How do I get the tail end of the belt to stay secured so it’s not flopping about when it is tied at the waist? Do you know what I mean? When I wear a belt on my jeans/pants, I can tuck the tail end in the last loophole on my pants, but I’m always clueless about how to tie the belt at the waist so the end isn’t loose. Maybe this is a sizing issue?
This is definitely a sizing issue. If you are planning to belt dresses or tops, go for a much smaller size than you would wear in pants. For thicker braided belts you can stick a bobby pin in there to hold down the flap. I’ve also tried using double sided tape which did not work and left a sticky residue on the belt.
Hollywood tape (double-sided sticky stuff). Might be a sizing issue, but if you have a small waist it’s sometimes hard to avoid the loose tail.
Thanks for the tips!!
Believe it or not, Payless has pretty decent skinny belts – what is up with the huge elastic belt trend anyway? Shudder. As for tucking in the belt, I put a scrunchie or a small rubber band in and use that as a loop to hold the end of the belt in.
To the reader considering the Top 10 versus non-Top 10 school, I went for the full-ride at a Top 20 school over paying full price anywhere else and have never regretted it for a minute. I met my husband in law school and he paid full price. Every month I thank my lucky stars that we only have to make one mortgage-sized payment every month to the gov’t and sallie mae. We both make good money (granted neither of us is in big law) and we can manage a mortgage, his loans, and fun money but cannot even fathom affording children. I think our lifestyle and life choices would have taken an even worse hit if I had the $150K+ in loans as well. I second (and third, and fourth) the readers who said to consider what life may throw at you. Unless you’ve been dreaming of big law since age 5 and know exactly what you are getting into (and really, who does), I wouldn’t be banking on it.
And just a small observation, the only people telling you to go to the Top 10 school and pay full price are other people who have. I can’t help thinking they are trying to reconcile their own massive expenditure (not being harsh, just pointing this out).
I took a lot of scholarship money at Loyola law school in Chicago. I am ranked in the top 5% of my class, and do not have a job. The only summer work I could find was doing free research for a prof. So much for the great connections my school supposedly has in Chicago.
A couple of years ago, I probably would have gotten a Biglaw gig with my grades. No more. And our career services office is not good – they just tell me to network more.
You bet I would attend the top school if I could do it over again.
I’ve done doc review while unemployed – and every single person on our project went to a top 25 school. I have friends went to top tier, but lower 50, and friends who went to 2nd and 3rd tier schools, and the temp agencies won’t even call them. So, I vote for going for the best school you possibly can get into. You might change your mind and not want to do public interest, or you might want to move to another state, or who knows. Your law degree is forever, so keep your options open by going to the best school you can.
Actually I turned down a T10 for a T20 with a scholarship and have never regretted it. But a T10 over a regional school good in a particular city? Unless her goal is to stay in that city, and she’s absolutely certain about that, better to go to the T10.
Agreed. I’m not sure if I’d go to law school today (I’ve been practicing for 15+ years.) There seem to be so few jobs, and law school is just so much more expensive these days. For what it’s worth, from my perspective on the hiring side, the feds hire from a wide variety of schools. Places like the DOJ tend to pick students out of clerkships, for sure, but if you’re at the top of your class and land a great clerkship, you have a shot even coming from lesser known schools.
OMG GORGEOUS!!!
If I were a recent college graduate I would hold off on going to law school at all right now. The recession has hit law firms hard and in three years, the profession will still be reeling from all the layoffs and deferrals. I don’t think law school, whether regional or top ten, is a good investment right now. I have been practising for more than thirty years (and I do love being a lawyer) but have never seen the profession in more turmoil and stress. There are not many jobs out there and in three years, all the laid off and deferred lawyers will still be in the pool. New lawyers are less expensive but also more expendable. You have to be practical and consider how you will pay off your loans after graduation.
I agree. This is not a good time for the law, with a lot of people flockign to the profession as Biglaw expanded, and clients now realizing just how expensive and inefficient Biglaw is. Not to mention offshore services cropping up to take on some of the doc review and similar tasks that Biglaw has been handling.
There are government and smaller jobs, but many of those pay so little that the three years’ opportunity cost and the major debt can’t really be justified financially. I recommend that those considering applying take the time to really explore other options first. Work with your college alumni center to find the names of women who graduated from your school 10 years ago in a variety of fields; call them up and ask them about their jobs and other jobs in their industry. What skills do they require, what personality traits are valuable, and what is the lifestyle like?
I did something like this (focusing just on the law, unfortunately) for a sociology paper in college and found that women were happy to share their experiences. There are lots of interesting jobs in public relations, accounting, consulting, compliance, marketing etc. that use a lot of the same skills but may offer a much better lifestyle and don’t require such a big investment of time and money.
Agreed. I think all that this thread really demonstrates is that there are absolutely no guarantees of a job or financial security whether you pay full price to go to the top law school or take the full ride to the lower-ranking school. The market is simply too uncertain at this point. My guess is that if both schools want you now, they’ll both still want you in a few years after you’ve had some “real world” experience or done the Peace Corps or something like that (I suppose this is assuming that you haven’t done that already). If you don’t want to take time off, then the best thing you can do is carefully examine your own personal circumstances, make the best and most practical decision you can, and be prepared to take a few hard knocks. Best of luck to you!
I’m glad someone finally decided to discuss this. I know people who went through law school and have lots of debt only to go back to the same jobs they were in before law school because that’s all that’s available. I’m definitely in the situation where if I had stayed in my old career, I would have been making more than I’d make now as a new attorney. Unfortunately the law degree makes me unappealing in the old profession because everyone knows I am just going to leave once I can find something in the legal sector.
If you’re interested in working in the public sector, there are public policy management and other similar degrees that are shorter programs and tend to offer much more financial assistance than law school. In many cases if you do programs like AmeriCorps or Peace Corps, many schools have an automatic scholarship.
I’m also happy someone decided to bring this up. Law school is not like grad school, where you can study a discipline in order to receive more knowledge in the discipline. Law school is a professional school: you go to Law School in order to get a job. Right now, there are very few jobs (legal and otherwise applicable to a law degree). Around here, a lot of my friends have been saying, “Man, if I stayed in my job before school, yeah I’d be bored, but I wouldn’t owe anyone any money.” All indicators point to the legal market shrinking even further, not getting better. Regardless if you want BigLaw or AnythingLaw, times are not good. And they still won’t be good once you graduate. Work for a couple years, or at least get yourself some otherwise-marketable skills, and THEN think about law school again.
Thank you! Well put. I’m a 1L (at a regional school, for what it’s worth — I’m not expecting to find a paying job for a good five years) and I keep talking to one of my good friends from high school who got accepted to a decent school. Strangely enough, he got a full ride to my school, which is actually ranked two spots above the school he’s picked, where he’ll have to pay $40k a year in tuition. I do not understand it at all. He doesn’t even *want* to be a lawyer. I suppose some lessons have to be learned the hard way, especially in this economy.
Girls, I have a serious skirt-related problem. Practically all of the skirts I own (except for the ones that have elastic waist bands), ride up when I am sitting down! Whether it’s an A-line or a pencil, it will keep riding up and up!. Not only is this super inappropriate, but it’s also super uncomfortable to have the waistline ride upto right below my chest! I constantly have to stand up, pull the skirt down, sit down, and repeat every 15 mins. Am I missing something? Does this happen to everyone? How do you prevent this from happening?
Is your waist much smaller than your hips? I have to shop for skirts very carefully because waist of the skirt just seems to want move towards the narrowest part of my body (this is especially true if the skirt has a high waist). I’ve found it helpful to buy a skirt the next size up and then have it tailored to fit snugly around my waist.
This happens to me as well. A slip helps somewhat, but a lot of times it’s because the waistband is just a little bit too big.
This doesn’t happen to me, but I might try taking one of the worst-offending skirts to a tailor–they might be able to tell what the problem is from looking at how it fits on you.
One thing that has helped me is to make sure my pencil skirts sit high on my waist to begin with. Also, they need to be slightly snug – not “look at my shapely bottom” snug, but a bit snug. That seems to help them stay “grabbing” where they’re supposed to as I make the standing-t0-sitting transition.
This happens to me. I have no idea how to cure it. I just stand up every now and then when no one is around and fix things/yank down my skirt. My skirts constantly turn around, too, to where the zipper/pleat/vent ends up in front or on the side (when it started out in back). My waist is a deal smaller than my, sadly, rather substantial hips, so I attribute it all to that, I suppose.
I have the rotating skirt problem too (yes, 12″ difference between waist and hips will do that!). My solution – don’t wear skirts.
Some thoughts… I’m a 3L at a 3rd tier school currently interning with a bunch of top-tier 2Ls and 3Ls. Only a couple of them have jobs lined up. The rest of them are freaking out about how they are going to find jobs in this market. A top-tier diploma is no guarantee of a job.
I chose the 3rd tier school for financial reasons and am graduating with about $50k in loans. I don’t regret going there and there’s a lot of things I’ve loved about the experience, although there were certainly drawbacks to being at a lower-ranked regional school. Most of my professors have been nothing short of great — I think you can find good professors wherever you go.
Some of the negatives though… An earlier poster mentioned that regional schools tend to focus less on national law though, which I have found to be the case. My school didn’t offer some of the more specialized classes I wanted to take, but I was able to take them at a nearby first-tier school and then transfer the credits. The student culture was less intellectual than what I would’ve liked. I’m not a study group kind of person though and was able to find a few people that I really clicked with, so this didn’t end up making much of a difference to me. My professors were also that much more excited to mentor me — the big fish, small pond effect.
As far as job opportunities go, I was able to land a BigLaw summer associateship and offer, although I have fairly specialized work experience that certainly helped. Very few people at my school had that opportunity though — I was in the top 2% of my class and did Law Review. On the other hand, my school is known for sending a lot of grads into the local job market and has a huge focus on clinics and public interest programs.
Don’t listen to people though who tell you that your “dream school” is worth the crushing debt. You won’t know whether it’s worth it until it’s too late. If you are a smart, motivated person who takes initiative to get what you want, you will succeed at a lower-ranked school. For me, I actually think the most valuable part of my law school experience was about learning how to make things happen for myself. I don’t plan on working in BigLaw for more than a couple years, and I’ll have the financial freedom to move onto something else where I won’t need to worry about money. You don’t want to be forced into making life decisions around your loan payments. For me, my husband is in a field that doesn’t pay much, and we would be financially strapped for the next 20 years if I’d gone to a top school.
Long story short, a prestigious diploma may give you more career options, but you can create those career options yourself with some hard work and savvy initiative (and you won’t be stuck with the debt). Good luck!!!
This is so close to my story as well, it’s uncanny. We may be life-twins! :) I second every bit of L’s advice.
I’ve always wanted a life-twin! Any chance you’re in the DC area?
This is pretty much my life story too, and I am in the DC area! Completely agree that going to the lower ranked school encouraged me to be very proactive about my career. I couldn’t be happier with my decision.
You mind if I email Kat to see if she can help us swap email addresses???
Actually I’m in Southern California, so clearly we are East Coast / West Coast versions of one another!
Hi L,
Sure! :)
L says, “For me, I actually think the most valuable part of my law school experience was about learning how to make things happen for myself.” This is what I was referring to in my earlier post about the Top 10 / BigLaw route leaving people unprepared. You go to law school, get fed relatively easily (in a good market like I had, at least) into a clerkship and then BigLaw, but then one day you wake up and realize that in order to STAY in BigLaw, you have to “make things happen” and you haven’t had that experience, nor have you had time to network or otherwise develop your own potential. That’s where I’ve been recently.
If you go to BigLaw and don’t luck into working with a partner who has a huge book of business and needs workhorse junior partners (and do you really want to BE a “workhorse” anyway?) then you need to be developing clients and/or a reputation in the community. Otherwise you will eventually be laid off as the firm realizes that you have a very high billing rate and nothing to offer that a good mid-level associate can’t offer.
So if you go the Top 10 route, yes, you don’t have to do as well to get a job and you will have more doors open to you. But you should be thinking about crafting a specific career path for yourself, not just about getting the “brass ring” of law review and clerkship. I had a very prestigious clerkship and it was a great year. I can’t say it matters at ALL now that I’m 10 years out of law school, though. If I had spent my law school years developing a network and figuring out a specific career path for myself, that would probably have been more valuable.
I agree 100% with this. In today’s legal market, you need to start marketing and looking for your own clients in law school practically. You can’t sit around and wait for the work to flow to you because someday it will stop flowing.
Random question as I begin to enter the “professional world.” I am a third year law student, and I’m wondering what type of water bottle most people use in the workplace? I’ve been using some bulky nalgene bottles that I’ve accumulated as freebees over the years, but I feel like this is not very professional. Plastic water bottles? An aluminum reusable one? A traditional nalgene type bottle?
I have a nalgene-type bottle, and actually my employer gives these away with our logo on it. I think being environmentally-friendly and not using disposable ones is professional, and it’s not practical to use a regular glass of water because of the risk of spilling on your computer. I’d just make sure you don’t get one with a loud pattern or, if you do, don’t bring it to meetings.
My office has regular water glasses in a cabinet near the water cooler and everyone uses those. When I have to travel away from the office I just buy a bottle of water at the next store convenience store. That said, I don’t think anyone would look down on you for using a reusable water bottle.
I work in banking (conservative) and I used to bring those Nalgene bottles to work. EVERYONE would comment on them. They all found the color to be odd and wanted to know what I was drinking out of them.
Not to say it matters, or it made me stop using it (I think I actually lost it), but I do find that most people tend to buy bottled water (which I tend to hate, as I don’t like it icy cold and spending $2 bucks) or they use a glass they keep at work. I also sometimes reuse my travel coffee cup, if I bring coffee for my commute, but I find just rinsing it leaves behind coffee taste for my water. :P
At my office (conservative, government), aluminum reusable ones are the norm, except with the very recent college grads, who seem to stick to Nalgene-type bottles. It’s almost funny how you can tell someone’s rank at my office based on his/her water bottle, but it’s really true!
I have a sigg. It works well. At my office most of the attorneys (men) drink coffee all day (!!) and no water, but those of us who drink water either have a big glass (not practical for me since I am clumsy) or reusable bottles.
I see a lot of people with aluminum/nalgene reusabl bottles… the plastic/cancer scare a few years ago seems to have transitioned many of my water drinking colleagues to the metal bottles, but in my division we tend towards Diet Coke before water ;-)
What is the graceful and professional way to leave the office each day when you have to leave at a certain time each day to pick up your kids from chilcare? I am not new to this as my kids are elementary school age, but I am in a fairly new job, so the circumstances have changed. At this job, I feel that my boss actually wants to use the last part of each day to have lengthy discussions that never seem to end. I generally use body language and verbal cues, but it grows old day after day. I don’t necessarily want to discuss my personal circumstances at work either because personal circumstances are always subject to change, and I don’t want to be continually updating my co-workers as they change, or be viewed in a certain light because of my personal circumstances. Before I was hired, I made it clear that I like to get to work early, power out the hours, and leave early, which was deemed to be o.k. I welcome any suggestions.
You probably need a 2 part wrap up. Part 1 is when you organize yourself for the next day – this may be well before you are thinking about leaving. Then, rather than wait for your boss to initiate the end of the day wrap up, stop by and say that your heading out shortly, but you wanted to talk to him/her about X…. then have your end of the day wrap up on your terms…. If the chat is extended, your still ready to go, if you need to cover something, you can etc….
One of my coworkers regularly works 7-4 or so for this reason. She explicitly established this schedule with our boss, and he understands that she is gone by 4 and will be reachable again after 8pm if he really needs her. I’d just be upfront about it with your boss, and the rest of your coworkers don’t need to know the details.
As a childless person, I prefer the up front and blunt. My support staff have to leave at a certain time or they get huge fines from their kid’s daycares. I don’t keep track of the time b/c I often work until 7. If I am talking to one of them minutes before they leave I am not doing it because I want them to stay and pay millions of dollars and leave their kids crying on the curb. I am doing it b/c I had no idea what time it was or completely forgot it was their “early day.” I prefer a quick, “sorry to interupt but I wanted to make sure you remembered I have to leave at x time today to pick up my children.”
It sucks that this puts women in the stereotypical “less reliable” role that we are trying to avoid but there really is no way around it. You may do great work before the boss gets there but he/she is still going to remember who stays late when he/she needs it. I personally don’t hold it against anyone for having a leaving deadline b/c I am pretty self suficient. I work with other (male) lawyers who aren’t always pleased though they don’t usually vocally complain. Maybe some day you will get to save the day by being the only person their early and that will help him/her remember. Just don’t forget, we don’t read minds.
I wanted to come back and add it is not just women that need to do this in my office. Some male attorneys leave at 4:30 at least once/week for kid duty. Sometimes it is for pick up, other times it is to watch a sports game. They make no apologies. They will stop me mid discussion and say “I’m leaving at 4:30 to catch x’s soccer game. We can talk tomorrow.” They are also more senior than me – but I don’t see the people more senior than them complaining, so long as they are still making their hours (and likely working from home at night after the kids are in bed.)
Ditto, the boss probably forgets that you need to leave. You can even shorten the explanation by saying at the beginning of the conversation, “just as a reminder, I need to leave at X time today.” Then offer to continue the conversation via conference call at 8 pm or whatever time your kids go to bed. Once you remind the boss of the time you need to leave a couple of times, then he/she should remember.
I also have to leave early for kids, dinner etc., and I try to stop by my boss’s office early if I know there is something he wants to discuss (eg stop by at 330 if I need to leave at 430 or 5) so that there is plenty of time. I also found that being up-front about my hours/schedule helps – a couple of partners will even ask, if they call me after 4, “is this an ok time for you or do you need to leave soon.”
More men are taking on child and elder care responsibilities, and as that happens, things will get better for women, both at home and work.
As another childless woman I agree — I respect the fact that you have other obligations/children/etc — after all, once upon a time, I was the child of someone who had to leave work on time to come and get me – be honest and upfront — but yes, it is held against us – mostly, I think, by men whose wives handle their children, so they don’t get the responsibility/requirements involved.
I am a very successful BigLaw partner, and I do this almost every day. I just say, no explanation, “I’m sorry — we have to wrap this up. I’ve got to leave here at 4” or, if it’s a client or other external, I might say “sorry — I have another committment at 4.” Then I take the biggest stack of papers I can find and carry it with me out the door so that everyone knows I am working another 3 hours after the kids are in bed.
It’s tough, though, I know, to do this. Almost no one sees you come in before 7, or work at your dining room table from 8-11 PM, but they ALL notice you leave “early.”
Can anyone recommend good layering tank tops that are not too boxy, not too short, not too baggy, and not too low in front?
They’re more camis than tank tops, but I love the ones at Banana Republic right now. They have satin trim along top which adds nice shimmer without looking like lingerie. They stay put all day (I hate how so many ride up). They also have matching cardigans – maybe I should go back and get one…hmmm…
Ann Taylor Loft has great 100% cotton ones.
I actually had great luck buying some cheap ones w/o the shelf bra at Sears.
I buy the ones without the bra part at Old Navy. Super cheap and come in a million colors. I’m only 5’5″ but I have a long torso so I’ve been buying the Tall sizes so that I can tuck them in when I am wearing a sweater or something on top. That avoids showing any stomach when I reach above my head.
I’ll second Old Navy. They are cheap, and they wear out quickly, but for $5 I can buy a lot and not worry about it.
This one is really long: http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=55410&vid=1&pid=706081 (it was too long for me)
And this is the one I just bought 3 in white: http://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=55409&vid=1&pid=730955
I get my layering camisoles from Nordstrom Rack. They’re <$10, and if you size up, they don't ride up. They've got black, white, and an assortment of standard solid colors.
I like these (and others) from Talbots:
http://www1.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi22916&rootCategory=cat70008&catId=cat110051&sortKey=Default§ion=Regular&conceptIdUnderSale=cat70008
Also, and I realize this is not exactly what you asked for, but, I was doing my laundry today and it reminded me how helpful I find these little tiny mini-tanks that just cover your bra and make low-cut tops decent, without adding another layer (so important in hot and humid climates):
http://www2.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?DeptID=50475&CatID=54101&GrpTyp=PRD&ItemID=181deea&attrtype=&attrvalue=&CMID=external%7c54100&Fltr=&Srt=&QL=F&IND=34&cmVirtualCat=&CmCatId=external|54100|54101
i love wearing something similar to that under button up shirts. It’s not too bulky, but I don’t feel like I have to button it up to my neck or worry about the buttons gaping.
I get camis at the BR outlet, usually around 10 bucks. I have some Ann Taylor ones too.
Any suggestions on how to keep the whites white? Bleach maybe? A lot of mine seem to gray within a year of having them…I guess perhaps they just don’t last longer than that.
This is exactly what I have been looking for! Thanks. Are these meant to be worn over a bra, and are they available in more colors?
They are meant to be worn over a bra (for all but the most luckily unencumbered I’d say). They show three colors online, but in stores they have four: white, black, light beige, and dark tan/taupe. I find them very useful, as they fill in the deep vee on so many things, and don’t create a lump/bump/line on your stomach, under your clothes, like a tank top can under a dress, for example.
I’m in the market for a daily tote bag that’s long enough to hold legal sized folders and files. I would prefer something in leather, but would be willing to go for a nice-looking microfiber or something like that. I’m a 26 year old lawyer and need something that looks professional, but not too stodgy. Any suggestions?
I just got a Michael Michael Kors red bag from RueLaLa for $200 (50% off retail!). The difficulty I had – I haunted ebay for coach nwt bags, etc. – was that few of the tote bags were really big enough to hold legal size folders, redwelds, etc. You often have to go up to the “extra large” size. The bag that I got is 17″ long, which is long enough to put in the files comfortably. It is slightly floppy, so you have to hold it with 1 hand and put in the files with the other, but it looks GREAT. Hope that helps!
PS, I am 31, so had the same concerns w/ stodginess.
I recently bought a Longchamps tote based on suggestions on this website, and it’s perfect. Lots of color choices available. I got the black. It holds a ton, including legal size files, and it’s also turned out to be the ideal carry-on bag. Doesn’t have any internal pockets or dividers though.
Jill – just wondering, do you use a regular purse as well? Or do you use the Longchamp tote for everything (paper, as well as personal things ie. wallet, cell etc?)
I’ve been contemplating getting one and just wanted to know whether people usually have a purse and this as well, or just carry this for everything.
Thanks!
Jill – just wondering, do you use a regular purse as well? Or do you use the Longchamp tote for everything (paper, as well as personal things ie. wallet, cell etc?)
I’ve been contemplating getting one and just wanted to know whether people usually have a purse and this as well, or just carry this for everything.
Thanks!
Jill – just wondering, do you use a regular purse as well? Or do you use the Longchamp tote for everything (paper, as well as personal things ie. wallet, cell etc?)
I’ve been contemplating getting one and just wanted to know whether people usually have a purse and this as well, or just carry this for everything.
Thanks!
This reminds me that I have been contemplating purchasing a nice tote bag as a gift for someone. I’m not that into designer stuff (mostly b/c I can’t afford it!), but I know this person would really appreciate it.
I know a lot of people buy designer bags on ebay, but I always wonder how one could ever know in advance if they are real or fake. My assumption is usually that the affordable ones are fake, but does anyone with experience in ebay purchasing know any guidelines for how to figure out what’s real and what’s fake? Thanks in advance!
Ebay actually has some advice for different brand names.
What you may miss out on, if the bag is used or a second, is the registration, maker’s warranty, etc.
After all this nice advice for an entering 1L, I was hoping everyone can give this outgoing 3L some advice. I am a JD/MBA, graduating this May. I was hoping to enter the business/financial services law practice area, and needless to say I still have no job offer in this crazy job market.
What do people think of going into compliance work? Will I ever get to practice law with this as my first job out of law school? Any other creative job-hunting tips? I hate thinking of taking the bar with no job prospects in sight! Thanks!
I’m in a similar boat. Our career office is saying take what you can get, and in a year or two try to transition to something else. People will remember and understand why you went a different direction. I hope they are right!
I don’t practice corporate law, but I have interviewed candidates with 2-3 years experience who currently practice another area of law and want to switch to my practice area. So long as I believe they have good, concrete reasons for making the switch, and they seem to understand that they’re going to have to basically be beginners for a while, it’s not a huge deal. It’d be more problematic if you had 5+ years’ experience, and I think every employer will understand that in this market you took whatever you can get. It also helps that compliance is related to what you ultimately want to do – you’ll make connections and network, and it’s a more logical transition to business/financial services than litigation or something would be.