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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 297 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Fashion

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Dakine – Ava (Twilight Plaid)Hooray for Friday! Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
Weekend recommendation: For some reason we are in the mood for a bright, colorful totebag — perhaps we're dreaming of novels and beaches and picnics. In any event, we like this fun bag from Dakine, which has a great fluorescent plaid pattern, and is $41 at Zappos. Dakine – Ava (Twilight Plaid) (Incidentally, the somewhat more serious and work-appropriate Editors Tote from Dooney & Burke is also on sale, marked from $175 to $140.)

(L-3)

About Kat

Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. C. Z.

    I’m a 1L who will be working in a Federal Courthouse in NYC this summer for a judge. I’ve emailed the office to get a general idea about the dress code (word is that it’s business casual but most people dress up a bit more), but I was wondering what I should be wearing on my first day. Should I wear a suit? I was thinking a sheath dress and cardigan, or a short sleeved dress and cardigan, and simple heels. As for purses, what kind of bag should I carry? Would a satchel style be okay, or should I carry a tote instead? Also, I am 23 but frequently mistaken for a college freshman, and so am not sure how to wear my hair either (right now it’s long, down to my bra strap, with bangs).

    • Anonymous

      Definitely a suit!

      I think any style of bag should be fine as long as it doesn’t look ratty/beat up.

    • Shayna

      Agree about the suit — I would cut your hair if you want to look older and consider growing out your bangs, or possibly growing them long enough to make them into a side bang for a more sophisticated look. Ask your hair stylist for recommendations – she’s the hair professional and a good one will be able to look at your face shape/hair texture and know what will/won’t work for you. Make sure you’re clear about how much time you’re willing to spend on your hair in the morning so she doesn’t give you a cut requiring an hour of prep if you don’t have that kind of time!

      • 3L

        I interned for a judge my 1L summer. Suit, definitely on the first day, and pretty much everyday thereafter. The judge is a liberal, modern, and a casual dresser herself, but my co-intern and I always wore suits and were better off for it (or at least had a blazer with us AT ALL TIMES in case of court, meetings, conferences, lunch outings with other chambers, etc.). It is considered unacceptable to not be ready to go into a court hearing or meeting without a suit jacket on – and you might likely be called in to observe even on your first day. Trust me on this.

        • 3L

          Oops, meant to say “it is considered unacceptable for an intern to not be ready to go into a court hearing or meeting because they do not have a jacket on.”

    • Lee

      Agree about the suit and that any nice bag that isn’t too wacky will be fine. I don’t think you need to cut your hair unless you want to, just make sure it looks neat when you go to work. As long as you generally look professional, the judge and his staff will be most impressed with a positive attitude and good work than with a perfectly grown-up hairstyle.

    • Anonymous

      I read the OP’s question a little differently. Based on the “in a Federal Courthouse,” I assumed that she would be working at the U.S.A. office or the office of the Clerk, not in the chambers of a federal judge. (If I’m wrong I totally concur with 3L’s advice above.)

      I’d wear a suit the first day, with something underneath that can stand on its own, so you can take your jacket off if you feel overdressed. After that, observe what the other lawyers–not admin. staff–in the office are wearing and try to match the same level of formality. Keep a jacket available at all times and take as much advantage as you can of observing trials/hearings–it’s really a wonderful learning experience.

      • 3L

        The OP wrote “in a Federal Courthouse in NYC this summer for a judge” — I had my 1L summer for a federal judge in NY and I stick to my guns about always wearing a suit. And never wear peep-toes. Also, neither my female co-intern nor I wore pantyhose and that didn’t seem to pose any issues.

        As for hair, btw, if you got hired with that same hair it shouldn’t be an issue once you already got the job. And yes, no wacky handbags please!

        • Anonymous

          Oh my, clearly I was reading way too fast–sorry about that! Agree about wearing a suit every day.

    • ERP

      No question – wear a suit! Put your hair in a neat bun. I would suggest a solid dark colored, well-structured bag.

      This sounds boring – but you will have time to develop your style personality after you make a solid, professional impression.

      Good luck!

      • Shayna

        The bun is a classic – good call! What’s grat about it is that it takes away the variable about whether your hair will be wavy/straight/frizzy etc.

    • Eponine

      I think that your dress and cardigan will be fine, assuming the answer from the office confirms that the dress code is business casual. If you want to step it up a bit for the first day, wear hose and pearls or something. Definitely wear closed-toed shoes until you know it’s okay not to. But if it’s business casual and most people dress a bit nicer, I’ll bet you that the women will mostly be in pencil skirts and blouses, maybe with a cardigan, and bare legs and pumps or open-toed shoes.

      Your regular purse is ok, assuming it’s relatively simple and classic. A leather satchel is fine. You don’t need a business tote unless you expect to be taking files home, and I don’t think you will be on day one (or probably at all).

      A low ponytail or bun would be nice. Just keep your hair neat. Don’t worry about looking young; you’ll have bags under your eyes soon enough.

    • L

      I’ve interned/clerked for three different federal judges in three different states. WEAR A SUIT. And for future reference, no matter where you’re working, always wear a suit on your first day. It doesn’t matter that you’ll look a bit out of place or be spotted as the “new person”–people expect it and it shows you know the “rules.”

    • 2L

      I’m a 2L who worked as an extern for a federal judge in CA for the past few months, and will be working for a different federal district judge this summer. In my experience, you will NEVER be out of place wearing a suit in a federal courthouse. Ever. Even if you and the other clerks are permitted to dress more casually, a suit is always acceptable and never weird.
      My advice is to definitely wear a suit the first day. If you know you will be observing anything in the courtroom on a certain day, definitely wear a suit. Always keep a jacket or blazer handy in your office, because you never know you when something interesting will be going on in court, and you will need to be courtroom-ready at a moments notice. If you dress ‘business casual’ on most days, make sure your outfit is always one that you could throw a blazer over to look polished enough for court, even if it isn’t a full suit. My general rule is to never dress more casually than the judge’s clerks.
      Good luck! It should be a great experience for you this summer!

  2. Amber

    Do any of you use anti-aging products? I’m 27, but I’ve heard you should start before you really develop wrinkles. Is this true? What does everyone use?

    • MM

      I do, started at 27. I use Oil of Olay (the kind in the red jars — maybe it’s called Regenerist) after hearing numerous reports that it is wonderful (from my grandma on down to Consumer Reports). I don’t have any wrinkles yet, but I can’t say whether it’s because of the product.

    • Shayna

      I started at 24 — I use Oil of Olay face wash and eye cream, and wear moisturizer with spf 15 (also use body lotion with spf 15 to cover all skin cancer prevention possibilities… wrinkles anywhere are not attractive!). I also have some adult acne (so fun) so I use a Neutrogena anti-acne anti-wrinkle cream/serum/? It comes in a long tube and goes all over as a general anti wrinkle/anti acne measure…

    • AR

      I started at 27 also – I’ve sampled a number of different products over the years, but I started with and have always gone back to Estee Lauder’s skincare line. They have a “prevention travel set” for about $50 that includes most of the products that I use. (I also use their “idealist pore minimizing skin refinisher.”) I’m 35 now and pretty happy with how my skin looks and feels. My mom has also used Estee Lauder for a long time, and I think that she has great skin.

    • Delta Sierra

      Anti-aging stuff: don’t bother. They don’t work. Save your money. A good drugstore moisturizer will do fine.

      • Shayna

        With SPF – I’m not sure about whether anti-aging is a good idea or not (and due to their desire to keep away from the FDA, most over the counter creams/lotions etc. don’t disclose what ingredients are in them, instead using proprietary names that are meaningless), but sunscreen has been shown to be an important preventative step against wrinkles, skin cancer, etc.

        • Delta Sierra

          SPF, of course. For me, in my head, SPF is filed under ‘health care/cancer prevention’, not under ‘anti-aging & wrinkle prevention’.

      • L

        I beg to differ. I’ve personally noticed significant differences between my long term use of drug-store eye cream v. an anti-aging eye cream. The producs aren’t just expensive because of the name, but because of the research (and patents) that go into them. And there is definitive, long-existing research that retinol improves the look of fine lines, age and sun spots.

      • A.

        Sorry, I very much disagree.
        To the OP – I started using a sunscreen with retinol (Neutrogena Healthy Skin SPF 15) when I was 24 and I get constant compliments on my skin – how few wrinkles I have, how smooth it is. Whenever I get facials, the estheticians always comment as well, about the lack of sun damage. I have ramped up over the years to more intense products – higher percentages of retinol, alpha- and beta-hydroxy acids, peptides, home peels, what have you – but I totally believe the early start I got with the anti-aging stuff made a huge difference. I am mid-thirties and most women I know who are my age already have minor aging on their face – crepey eyelids, forehead wrinkles, and crow’s feet – and I have none of those things (at least not that you can see without being a couple of inches away from my face, when I don’t have makeup on!). I highly recommend starting on a daily face lotion (SPF at least 30 – 15 doesn’t cut it anymore) with some kind of anti-aging product in it – a mild retinol can work well if you’re new to anti-aging. You don’t have to spend a fortune – in fact, you absolutely do not have to and should not, until you know how your skin will react to things – but the earlier you start, the fewer wrinkles you will have later, especially if you have good genetics. Sephora is a great place to get free samples of skin products, so you can try some things and see how they work for you before spending money on them.

    • KateSouth

      I started at 25 (I’m now 27), though I always used some kind of sunscreen. I wear Aveeno’s Positively Radiant moisturizer with SPF 30. I also use one of Neutrogena’s eye creams. My dermatologist recommended I stick with SPF 30 and above for preventative reasons, and he also prescribed me a retinoid for skin cell turnover – it was due to adult acne, but also helps with fine lines, etc…my doctor agrees that the more you do now, the easier it will be later on. My mom is aging pretty well, but she also grew up in Los Angeles with lots of sun exposure and didn’t really think about skincare until later on, so I am learning from her experiences.

      • K

        Those using Retin-A (or similar) for adult acne, how long did it take before you stopped breaking out? I’ve been using it for three months now and I think I’m still having the initial bad breakout that the dermatologist warned me about!

        • Shayna

          I found that I was irritating my skin into being more oily/acne prone with the salicylic acid medications/acene skin scrub — I use Oil of Olay face wash and it’s actually lessened the adult acne – and benzoyl peroxide for the once-a-month spots…

        • s

          I never got good results. To be honest, after years on antibiotics and trying Retin-A and Differen, what ultimately has been the best thing has been regular microdermabrasians done by an aesthetician out of of my dermatologist’s office (I know, hard to believe). After having just a couple of them, I noticed I wasn’t breaking out as much and my skin tone looked a lot more even. I’ve had probably about 8 now (I do about every two months now) and it has only continued to improve. No breakouts and it feels to soft. For the first time in 15 years, I’ve been able to walk out of the house without makeup and feel good. My mom and one of my friends even mentioned how great my skin has gotten. I also started using a cleanser that was recommended (phytogel) http://www.shoppevonia.com/Phyto-Gel-Cleanser_p_99.html . It’s really gentle but regulates my combo skin. It’s about $40 but lasts a really long time. I know this sounds a little neurotic, but I also make sure any makeup never touches an applicator that is reused (I use foundation from a pump and apply with my fingers). I think a lot of bacteria lurks in brushes and those sponges that come with many cream foundations. I never will use a sponge or powder pad twice (now use blotting papers.)

        • Eek

          Retin-A did nothing for my adult onset acne. Topical treatments,microderm, antibiotics-all did little to nothing…and had to go to Accutane. That worked and I’m 10 years+ without any breakouts and I would say not one pimple since. It was a harsh last resort option though and your doctor will tell you all about why.

          • K

            I’m familiar with Accutane, as I said above – I did two rounds, the last about ten years ago, and it did permanently change the nature of my acne (fewer cystic pimples) but I still break out constantly.

            At this point, I’m 28, I’ve had bad skin for twenty years, I’ve literally tried every single prescription and over-the-counter remedy on the market, and nothing has ever worked. I think it may be time to just accept that I have bad skin and will always have it no matter what.

          • Chicago K

            To K who has tried different remedies for 20 years (I can’t reply directly for some reason).

            Just wanted to point out, I’ve also had acne for 20 + years, and different things started to work for me as I got older.

            Antibiotics, which did nothing for me when I was 11-14 actually cleared my skin very well when I was 22-25 and I did another course at 29 for my back.

            The pill, which made me break out at 18-25 keeps my skin very clear at 30.

            So you might want to revisist a few things…our bodies change.

    • ERP

      I am 27 too and paranoid about wrinkles and gray hair. I don’t have either yet, cross your fingers for me ladies! I wear Neutragena Daily Defense w/ SPF under my makeup. Sun is the number one ager so protect yourself! I also take vitamin E, drink fruit smoothies w/ antioxidants, and rub a mixture of vitamin E and vasoline on my face for sleeping. Over share? Probably, but its friday afternoon and I am feeling loopy. Stay fabulous.

      • AH

        I swear, I’m not being preachy, but in case you did not already know, I wanted to tell you that the United States is one of the few countries that permits vaseline (petroleum jelly) to be used in cosmetics or skin care. Apparently, vaseline is made from oil sludge and nobody can really ensure what’s in a particular bottle, thus nobody can ensure its safety — Europe says it banned it because of a cancer risk. So, use this information however and I hope you stay loopy because I enjoyed your post.

        • jojo

          Try jojoba oil; it’s amazing for moisturizing (and I say this as someone with oily skin currently on accutane, so I am oil-wary) but it absorbs quickly and leaves your skin with a silky–as opposed to oily–finish.

        • 2L Student

          I also saw something about young women with breast cancer (think 20s and 30s when it’s unusual to get breast cancer). They studied them and found that they all had high levels of petroleum in their blood. Scary stuff. It was one of the only things they had in common (if not the only one. i dont remember exactly).

          Petroleum is in a lot of lip glosses. It’s not bad to use here and there (especially if you have REALLY chapped lips that need intense treatment) but I would steer clear from every day use. Anything you put on your lips you end up ingesting some of it (and excessive lip gloss use can lead to excessive ingestion of petroleum). Plus anything you put on your skin can be absorbed! Better safe than sorry!

    • Clerky

      My dermatologist tells me over and over again that the best thing women can do for their skin to prevent aging is to use Retin-A. I use prescription strength Retin-A Micro. I use a pea drop on my face before I go to bed a few times a week. I’m blessed with good genes and tend to look pretty young (I’m 30) so I can’t tell if it is working or not. However, it HAS helped smooth out my complexion — I used to have darker patches around my upper lip/chin area and those pretty much have gone away with use of Retin-A. You can also buy a retinoid over the counter, but it won’t be as powerful as getting a prescription for Retin-A.

      I also use Aveeno SPF 30 — I like the added sun protection of using SPF 30 as opposed to SPF 15. In the last year, I also started using Obagi Vitamin C 15%. My dermatologist tells me that it just gives your skin a glow, but frankly I don’t notice much of a difference.

      Bottom line — the most important tools you can use are sunscreen and Retin-A.

    • Eponine

      I use undereye cream and started at age 26 (2 years into my legal career) when I began to see puffiness and lines. I use either Burts Bees Radiance eye cream or Neutrogena in the blue tube. Both are great for moisturizing and reducing puffiness, but the Neutrogena is a bit better (and also cheaper). I wear glasses that include UV protection and always wear sunglasses on sunny days, but if you don’t wear sunglasses, I’d recommend a concealer or eye cream with SPF to prevent wrinkles.

      • Eponine

        Oh, and I use Neutrogena mineral powder makeup with SPF 20, and if I’m going to be outside more, I use an SPF 30 oil-free face sunscreen too. And I always use SPF 15 all over my body.

        • PermaClerk

          FWIW — I use mineral makeup, too, and always assumed the package SPF was accurate. I’ve read several articles recently, though, where dermatologists have said that no one would ever wear mineral makeup in thick enough layer to get any effective sun protection from it. So I longer consider my makeup as having any SPF.

          • Eponine

            Really? I am super, super pale and I burn really fast without any SPF (I realize that you can have sun damage without burning, but I can literally burn in 10 minutes in the sun). I don’t burn at all with mineral makeup on.

      • Shayna

        Agree — sunglasses are a must — the less you squint, the fewer wrinkles and headaches you’ll have :-)

        And keep up with the SPF!

    • Anonymous

      Started when I hit 30. Olay should be fine. Don’t forget SPF during the day. The best anti aging product won’t help if you neglect that!

      • 1L NYC

        I am 22, so I don’t use anti-aging creams, but as an engineer, you should all keep in mind that most of the sunscreens that you have described only have UVA protection, not UVB, which can cause just as many wrinkles. Obviously it is much easier to wear a product that has sunscreen built in, but if you are really worried about this — there are only three products on the market that do have UVB protection: Neutrogena products with helioplex (SPF 50+); La Roche Posay and Lancome products (I don’t remember the trademark for these).

        Among these, Neutrogena is the cheapest, and I like getting the spray sunscreen, as it streaks less.

        • T

          I’m a pale redhead who spent my entire childhood outside without sunscreen, so I have some experience with wrinkle-fighting! I’m 36 now, and I use Fallene Cotz (SPF 58) every day as makeup / sunscreen. I love how it goes on and it has never bothered my crazy sensitive skin. It’s uva and uvb, because it’s a physical blocker. I get it on drugstore.com.

    • CJ in CA

      I’m 26 and I asked something similar a while back. I picked up the Nutregena anti-aging anti-acne line (Glycolic acid face wash, alpha hydroxy moisturizer, and retinol/ salicilic acid treatment). It hasn’t “improved” my acne from my old products, but it didn’t make it worse. I obviously don’t yet know anything about the anti aging effects.

      I figured, it couldn’t hurt, and since many of the ingredients are said to have both acne and aging benefits, I thought it might help. I might have to look into the microdermabrasion someone mentioned- I get 2-4 big cystic pimples every month. It’s not enough to go on Accutane, but it’s enough that it’s really annoying.

      • Emilie

        Have you tried Proactive? My aunt was in a similar situation to you (a few cystic pimples per month, generally along her jawline) and the Proactive cleared everything right up.

    • Amber

      Wow! Thanks for everyone’s help! I am going to go to Sephora this weekend and see if I can try some of these lines.

      I do already use Neutrogena’s lotion with SPF 15 in it. This is making me wonder if I should try some with more protection. Sometimes it’s hard to find this stuff in oil free formulations. :(

      • MPC

        If you’re exposed to the sun for more than 15-20 minutes a day, something stronger than SPF 15 might be worth it. I’m 23 and my skin is quite fair– sometimes I burn after ten minutes of sun exposure. I use Neutrogena’s Healthy Defense SPF 45 under my makeup. The package says it’s oil-free– it does leave my face shiny, but powder usually takes care of that. I also reapply if I’m outside for more than two hours.

    • Shayna

      As long as we’re talking about skin care – has anyone tried the Zeno – I keep seeing ads for it to “zap” acne using heat… I have some adult acne that no amount of scrubs/creams/prescriptions has cleared up over the years —

      • Anon

        I have it and love it–for cystic acne only. I don’t use it on “everyday” pimples and wouldn’t necessarily recommend it for non-cystic breakouts.

    • Rachel

      I would recommend a retinol product as well – Paula’s Choice has one and Skinceuticals had a great one with the highest Retinol percentage outside of a Rx.

      Outside of that, I also second the use of Olay and a good antioxidant.

  3. Anonymous

    I have a question about professional maternity wear, particularly during the in-between phase before a big baby bump. My old clothes no longer fit, but I am still a bit small for most maternity clothes. I have a maternity band, which has helped me to continue wearing my old clothes, but it’s not particularly comfortable and I’m not sure how much longer I can get away with that. I normally wear suits to work, and although I think I could get away with something less formal while pregnant, I obviously still want to look professional. My problem is that in trying to look for maternity suits, besides the fact that they usually seem overpriced and of low quality, and the fact that I don’t want to spend a fortune on a bunch of new suits that I will only wear for a few months, the jackets don’t work for me yet because my bump isn’t big enough yet. But since I can barely fit into my old pants and skirts, I still need to buy maternity bottoms and am at a loss as to what to wear on top. I’ve heard people say that they’ve worn their regular suit jackets during pregnancy, just unbuttoned, but am curious how that would work if you can no longer wear the matching bottoms. I’m so used to wearing suits that I feel like a jacket in a different color or material just looks odd. Anyone have any tips for looking professional during pregnancy, particularly during that in-between phase? Thanks!

    • Shayna

      Don’t do the strange mixed jacket/bottom look — Can you pull off a cardigan? I would sooner try to wear the too big jacket and leave that open then mix the jacket/bottom

    • MMS

      During my last pregnancy, I shopped at Motherhood Maternity for work clothes. JC Penney is also worth looking at.
      For the in-between phase you’re in right now, remember that you’ll probably be right back in that phase post-baby (some call it fourth trimester) because you might not fit into your old clothes within 6 – 12 weeks, so a few basics in a bigger size, or the special pants (with the interior elastic and buttons) might be in order. Not everything needs to be labeled “maternity” to qualify, either. I bought bigger size stretchy camis/tshirts to wear under my suits.
      As for the mismatching skirt and blazer, I had the same issue. So I would by skirts that were designed for all stages of pregnancy in florals or patters with a little bit of black or brown, then I’d wear my regular blazer on top without feeling entirely weird.
      I bought a black skirt/blazer and a brown skirt/blazer/pants and just rotated everything throughout the pregnancy with tops. Boring? Yes. Highest Quality? No. Affordable? Yes. You could also try Ebay.
      And there will be times where your clothes might look a little big, but unless you want to shop every month for new clothes, you will want to stick with just a few things that you can make work.
      Good luck!

    • AgencyCounsel

      I’m in the exact same situation. Add to the fact that I’m only 5’1″ trying to find petite sized maternity clothes can be tough. I really don’t want to have to hem pants I’m only going to wear a few months. Right now I’m wearing a dress with a cardigan sweater.

    • meg

      gap and ann taylor loft both have maternity lines with decent work clothes. I wouldn’t bother with new blazers, but do what MMS suggests and just layer over skirts. Also dresses are fantastic for growing with you, and are wonderfully comfortable during the hot summer months, which you will be experiencing with your bigger belly…

      • Shayna

        Old Navy (a Gap subsidiary) has low priced maternity wear – but since it’s only available online I would consider the return/shipping cost/etc. first…

    • K

      Most of the women at my firm end up wearing maternity dresses with blazers (a mix of maternity blazers and their regular ones) once they hit that stage. I always think they manage to look very professional.

    • Another MJ

      For pants or a skirt that have button, loop a rubber band around the button, then through the button hole, then back around the button. That way you can unzip the zipper a couple of inches, cover it up with your top or suit jacket, and get several extra inches of room in the waist.

      • Emilie

        This is a good trick, but unfortunately most of my pre-preg pants have a hook closure, darn it. I wore a bella band for a while, but it made my morning sickness much worse. I agree with the PP who recommended buying a few things in a larger size – I went up a size for a while, and the pants didn’t sag in the bottom too much. I figure I’ll be able to wear those pants as I’m getting back down to pre-preg weight. I didn’t have too tough of a transition this time though because it’s my 2nd and you definitely pop much sooner the 2nd time around!

        I’m mostly wearing separates. I have unfortunately had terrible luck with ATLoft’s line (though I had very high hopes) and I think most of Gap is too casual for my work. I absolutely hated Motherhood in my first pregnancy 4 years ago, but I love them this time around. I’m not sure what changed. I will say that their “secret fit” panel pants are the absolute best. The tummy panel fits almost like nylons – it’s very comfortable and leave virtually no line under your clothes. You may even have luck fitting into those now even though the panel seems huge, because it’s so form fitting.

        I agree that most maternity suits are gross. I haven’t bought one yet and am not sure if I will.

        • Emilie

          The other thing I will say about Motherhood is that all of the stores I’ve gone into are awful. Completely awful. They seem to have a much better selection online. You’re better off ordering online and returning what doesn’t work. (But watch their return policy- it’s pretty strict.)

          I’ve also mixed the Motherhood pants “staples” with cute tops from Nordstrom, boutiques, etc. Japanese Weekend, Olian, and Maternal America have lots of cute tops – I always get compliments when I wear these. I’ve been dressing slightly more casually since I’ve been in maternity almost out of necessity (because the “professional” maternity clothes are generally so ugly/boring), but I think I’ve managed to still look put-together. Focus on shoes and accessories! :-)

    • AC

      If any of your current suits are still available in the store you could buy a larger size in the skirt (skirts are WAY more forgiving than pants) and wear your matching jacket unbuttoned. It will get you through the in-between regular and maternity clothes phase and the larger size will come in handy after your pregnancy since it takes most women a while to fit back into their pre-pregnancy clothes. Besides, the longer you can put off the maternity clothes the better. While maternity clothes might be fun to shop for now, you will tire of them long before you have your baby.

    • A.

      I am not sure what to suggest as far as brands – the “professional” Motherhood Maternity stuff I got when I was pregnant was terrible quality and I don’t recommend it. I will say – unless you are sure you are having more babies (and will go back to work while pregnant with each – it may seem like a foregone conclusion now, but I’d say about 70 percent of my friends have quit working after their second baby, and 90 percent of my friends with three kids do not work), don’t invest a lot of money in “work” maternity clothes. To that end, you might try looking on Craigslist in your city, or posting an ad looking for professional maternity attire – many times women who did buy a lot are looking to unload their stuff because they aren’t having more kids. eBay is also a good resource. I sold my entire maternity wardrobe on eBay in one large lot and the person who bought it was thrilled to get it.

    • Anonymous

      There are trousers you can get with side button strips. With a small bump, you fasten on the closest buttonhole, then keep increasing as bump increases. Not sure if I am being clear with my description!

    • T

      I am 7 months pregnant and know exactly what you mean. I have had pretty good luck shopping at places like Ross and TJ Max for nice work items that are still affordable. I have just had to go up a size or two. I have found that a lot of the styles right now have worked great – there are a lot of high waisted shirts and dresses right now. I have bought most of my pants at Motherhood and they aren’t the worst things I have seen but I love my Mimi pants much better. So far I have avoided a maternity jacket because they have all been horrible. I have been able to wear tweed or other patterned jackets with solid colored bottoms. I did buy a maternity trench at Motherhood earlier this year in black and it has worked well. I have also had good luck picking up a few pieces at thrift stores but it does take more effort to find things that way.

    • K

      I wore my regular jackets unbuttoned, but my work is biz casual. I bought 2 suits at pea in the pod (200/each about) and wore those to death. They were not terrible quality but still polyester etc – I think you have to spend that much in order to get suits that look even halfway decent.

    • Clerky

      Congratulations on your pregnancy! I don’t have clothing recommendations except to say that you should be careful about how much skin you are showing. There was a pregnant woman in a meeting the other day who was showing WAY too much cleavage and it was so distracting. Maybe it’s uncomfortable to wear a cami underneath a dress when someone is already so far along in their pregnancy, but it’s something to be watchful of.

      • Anonymous

        Original poster here. Thanks so much for all the suggestions. I went to J.C. Penny’s yesterday and was surprised that I was able to stock up on some great basics. Still looking for professional looking dresses and more cute tops/blazers, etc., but was happy to have found at least a few things to get me started. I noticed Nordstrom’s has some cute stuff online and they are very easy with shipping and returns, so I may try that next. Clerky — I agree and am making an effort to try to find conservative pregnancy stuff — it is apparently hard to find!

        • Emilie

          I have to wear a camisole under everything, and I’m practically incapable of cleavage. For some reason, many maternity tops are very low cut. Gap has good camis, and I’ve also bought a few at Kohl’s (Oh Baby/Motherhood line).

  4. Anonymous

    I love the Dooney and Burke Editors tote. Do you think the lilac one is appropriate for work?

    • Eponine

      IMO nylon bags don’t look the most professional. I’d carry it to work, but not to court or a big meeting.

  5. MM

    I’m looking for some recommendations on quality, classic shells that will work versatilely under suits, cardigans, or blazers. Because my chest size is a bit on the big side, I need something that is not low-cut (everything seems low-cut on me), will not be tight in the chest area, and is long enough and nicely finished at the bottom so it doesn’t have to be tucked in (tucking in is *not* flattering on me). Ideally, they would have some type of sleeve. Looking for all colors, both basic and a punch of color.

  6. ANONO

    Does anyone have a recommendation for somewhat opaque pantyhose? I have a minor skin condition, and my legs are kind of blotchy and have red marks/spots on them. It looks worse than it is, and makes me feel diseased.

    I love winter because I can wear skirts with tights, but every pair of pantyhose I’ve tried (basically, all the Target/Drugstore brands) just don’t provide any coverage. Sheer isn’t good for me! I’m super-pale, so if I buy the “suntan” hose I look like a freak. I realize nothing will provide the coverage of tights, but I would love a brand that is a little thicker.

    • Shayna

      I’m told that Spanx are good for this — also, L’eggs has outlet stores (look online to see if one is near you) that have a freakishly large variety of lines – thick, thin, see through, patterned – you name it, they stock it

      • kandi

        I agree with Shayna, I’m wearing a pair of Spanx right now that are “sheer” , but are thick enough that they cover my eczema.

    • Anon

      You might look into the hosiery made especially for people dealing with varicose veins (or recovering from surgery) – I wore them for a few weeks after I had some veins removed and they are much, much thicker than regular hose. They also look much thicker, though, so there’s that consideration. Nothing that provides coverage is going to look sheer…

      • Anon

        Btw, did not mean to imply that your skin condition has anything to do with varicose veins, just that I know from experience that if you search for hose that are made for this issue, you’ll find ones with lots more coverage.

    • trial lawyer

      The Spanx or Assets in buff works for me. You can’t see mybroken blood vessels and I’m pretty pale.

    • Eponine

      I feel like I post this so much taht people are going to think I work for Hue. I love Hue hose.

      The “natural” shade of this no waistband hose is the perfect shade for my pasty skin. It seems to cover up a little patch of spider veins I have on my leg just fine. I don’t know if it would cover up your blotches.

      http://www.barenecessities.com/HUE-No-Waistband-Pantyhose-with-Control-Top_product_Hue5973_,search,.htm#

      I also like the almost black shade, and that definitely would cover up your blotches.

      The natural shade of the Polished Sheer hose is a bit darker than the No Waistband, but the Polished sheer are IMO a little bit less comfortable.

      http://www.barenecessities.com/HUE-Polished-Sheer-Control-Top-Pantyhose_product_HUE10775_,search,.htm

    • dr

      I recommend you check out shapings.com as they have a super large selection from international makers, sometimes with a much wider variety of sizes and “skin” tones…I have found many very “light” tones if that will help you…they also specify the denier weight, so that will help you with your wanting “thicker” ones. the online rep for shapings is fabulous and will help direct you. enjoy –

  7. Supremes

    Has anyone applied or obtained a Supreme Court clerkship? I have clerked on both the federal district and appellate courts and am toying with the idea of applying. I realize how ridiculously competitive it is but I’m thinking it is worth a short. My stats — top 10% at a good school, two federal clerkships, currently working at a V15 firm.

    My other option is to apply for a Bristow fellowship at the SG’s office. If anyone has applied for either of these uber competitive positions, please share what the application process is like, how the interviews are carried out, etc. Thanks!

    • divaliscious11

      I say go for it. I clerked on our top state court and it was an amazing experience, and I don’t do any type of it related work at all. I think anytime you have the opportunity for those once in a lifetime learning experiences, you have to take a shot at it. Having clerked on the district and appellate courts, it sounds like you great credentials, great skills , great contacts or a combination of all 3! Best of Luck, and don’t talk yourself out of it!

    • ab68

      I agree: go for it. For the Supreme Court, each Justice has a different system for interviews, but the standard application package is a cover letter, resume, transcripts (undergrad and law school), writing sample, and 3 (or so) letters of recommendation. Most successful applicants probably have their appellate judges and/or former professors lobbying for them.

      Here are some slightly outdated links:

      http://bamber.blogspot.com/2006/07/how-to-apply-for-supreme-court.html

      http://www.law.stanford.edu/publications/stanford_lawyer/issues/77/ClerkingAtTheSupremeCourt.html

      http://www.hlrecord.org/2.4463/professor-suk-explains-how-to-clerk-for-the-supreme-court-1.577905

    • anony

      This only applies if you’re talking about a SCOTUS clerkship -as every year, Above the Law tracks SCOTUS clerkships (see http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/supreme-court-clerk-hiring-watch-an-update/?icid=sphere_breakingmedia_inpage_abovethelaw_inline). Clerks almost always come from a select few Circuit Judges, top ten US News schools (Justice Thomas’s clerks generally being the exception), and single digit class rank. Of course it isn’t fair. The best and the brightest aren’t exclusively found in the #1 student from Yale who then clerked for a district court and then the “right” Judge from a Circuit. But that’s who gets a SCOTUS clerkship. It’s absurdly focused on school pedigree and grades.

      On the other hand, if you’re talking about a state Supreme Court, a couple of my friends have done that – one for the Washington Supreme Court with a top 5% rank from a T15, and one for the California Supreme Court with a JD and #2 class rank from a T30, after a Superior Court clerkship. They absolutely loved it.

      • divaliscious11

        I wonder how many great candidates read this and self-eliminate? I’d skip this and send in my app!

        • Shayna

          Agree — Better to apply and not get it than to never give yourself the chance –

          I would bet ON me, before betting against myself by not applying for something — And it’s paid off over the years. Studies have shown that women are more likely to apply for a job only if they meet 100% of the criteria, whereas men will apply if they meet only 60% of the criteria — and those men do get hired so — go for it!

    • Eponine

      Can’t hurt to apply. I have a friend who is a current clerk and he had a similar path to yours.

    • lulu

      Talk to the Judges that you clerked for, especially the appellate one. Whether you have a chance at either SCOTUS or Bristow really turns on whether they think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread (again, especially the appellate judge unless the district court judge is in the unusual position of being a feeder judge). But if they do, I wouldn’t let the fact that they are competitive stop you. (I clerked on the Ninth Circuit and toyed with the idea of applying for one or both of the positions that you are considering but decided not to (I did let the fact that they are competitive and I was afraid of rejection stop me) but one of my co-clerks applied and this is what I got out of our conversations about it.)

      • guest

        This. My husband clerked SCOTUS, and I have friends who have done Bristow. You know whether you have strong professor recommendations and whether your judge is a feeder. It’s all about developing the relationship and getting the advice of your recommenders. Talk to them candidly and see what you think they can do for you. And frankly, networking is key. Do you know people who have had either of these jobs who can help guide you through? In the end, I don’t see how it hurts to apply, but you want to do the networking to increase your chances and have a realistic idea of where you stand.

    • E

      The only thing that I should stop you from applying is if you don’t want to do it. In my life, I sometimes don’t jump at something because I hate being rejected — if you want to, go for it. If they tell you no, at least you tried. It’s not like your photo is going to be posted on the NYTimes with FAILED under it (which is sometimes how it feels when I thing about doing something!)

    • 3L

      “If you never try, then you never know.”

      Likewise, your chances of getting the clerkship go up just by applying ;)

    • L

      Another reason to go for it is this: how many of us who don’t have the perfect resume from the perfect school don’t apply, thereby self-selecting the applicant pool? Go for it, and show the Justices that they’ve got options!

    • Supremes

      Thanks all for the helpful comments. I’m talking about a SCOTUS clerkship here, not state supreme court. I think you’re all right, you just don’t know unless you try. There were definitely some people who were somewhat skeptical that I could get my other clerkships and I clearly showed them, so why stop now?

  8. Angie

    Wow… I just gave notice to my corporate job that I’ll be leaving to take one in the public sector. They pay is way less but I’ll be able to spend time with my new baby. I must be totally crazy! Has anyone else done this? Did it work out? Or was everyone miserable because of cutting back?

    • Anon

      Congrats :)

      I took a significant pay cut when I went from a firm to in-house and I would never go back. I actually find that we’re smarter with money now that there is less wiggle room for non-essential purchases and you can’t put a price on having a fantastic quality of life.

    • A.

      Time with your child is more priceless than diamonds, and do not let anyone tell you differently. I worked full-time-plus in a stressful, Fortune 500 corporate-communications job for the first two years of my son’s life. I hardly ever saw him other than the hour or so between daycare pickup and bedtime. When he was two, I had finally had enough. I quit the corporate job and took a part-time job doing the same thing – communications – for a nonprofit at a much, MUCH lower salary. It was tough at first – we gave up a lot of extras. But I was home more, so we ate at home more, I did more of the housework and home repair, etc. I no longer had to spend tons of money on dry cleaning or lunches out, and we cut back to a part-time daycare schedule, which saved us a lot. It was excellent training for when my husband got laid off last year, and we REALLY had to let go of a lot of extras. (He got a new job within two months, but still.) New clothes, new cars, etc. are nice – but part of not having a lot of disposable income is you think more about time and less about stuff. We take walks, go for bike rides, Rollerblade in the park while my son rides his trike, go on picnics, etc. And we have the time and energy to do it because we’re not exhausted all the time from working too much.

      I am working as a consultant now, still basically part-time (although some weeks are a lot more part-time than others) and we still don’t have a lot of extras, but I have time with my son and we have family sanity, which was in short supply when we had two people in high-powered careers. I would not trade this extra time with my kiddo for any amount of money, prestige or career advancement. Before I know it, he’ll be twelve and rolling his eyes at everything I say. I still have my foot in the workforce, and I would be able to make a living to support myself and my son if something happened to my husband. I may not make VP by 35 (well, I definitely won’t) but I will be able to look back and say that I didn’t let my son’s childhood pass me by. Cutbacks are not fun but regrets are hard to live with. Enjoy the time with your baby and do not look back. :)

      • K

        Ditto. I went from biglaw to small law (30 atty firm) when my 1st was 6 months and it is great. I make less than 1/2 of what I used to, but I work 80% and always have my days off, and basically work 8-5, and I feel like I see my kids a fair amount. And I work from home 1 day a week.

    • divaliscious11

      Angie-

      NOt sure what your parameters are, but I left BigLaw, took a huge paycut (40% at the time) and have absolutely no regrets. And it only took me 3 years to exceed what I had been making in BigLaw (with a job change).
      Am I making what my co-clerk is making? No. (I use her as my comp gage – she is still in BigLaw, non-NYC) I am still about 40% below her, but my total comp has moved passed six figures that start with 1, and I don’t work weekends (unless its a real emergency), leave the office around 5:30-6 each night, take my kids to school in the morning and have dinner, or at least am with them at night before bed etc…. I can go to school activities and sporting events etc….

      Do I wish I made the extra money? Sure, but my quality of life and that of my children is so much more than what I’d have had with them to be successful in BigLaw that it is more than worth it.

      Initially it was a little bit tougher, as I was used to have more disposable income, but you adjust…. Adjusting for me meant actually making a plan, rather than just going with the flow…. Not a budget, a spending plan.

      One peice of advice, if you don’t already max your 401K, start right from the start with the new job. If you are already taking a huge paycut, might as well take this part too…

      • Angie

        Thanks everyone for the nice notes! I’m so excited about spending time with my son and working on something I can truly make my mark on!

    • RKS

      Congrats!! I did something very similar 2 years ago — left BigLaw to work for the fed gov’t. Took an almost 50% pay cut to do it. And you know what? It’s been worth every penny. I see more of my kids, am home every Friday either tele-working or outright off (alternating weeks) and generally, am in a happier and more low-key environment. I’m doing basically the same work, with lots of responsibility. Really, this has been a fantastic step.

      Yes, the pay cut hurt. No way around it. We had to scale back on a bunch of luxuries, including weekly cleaning service (cut to monthly or bi-monthly), less eating out, less nice clothes. But I have a stable job with a good paycheck, no fear of layoffs. This is huge, since my former firm went through 3-4 rounds of layoffs in 2008-09. I get contributions to my retirement fund (firm did not contribute for associates). And I have a life again. My kids have a calmer mom, who’s not glued to her blackberry.

  9. KZ

    Does anyone (particularly lawyers who do actual hiring) have any suggestions for improving cover letters? What do you generally look for? I feel like mine is very generic and blah and my career services has not been terrible helpful on this point.

    • Abby

      I am the hiring partner at a medium-sized law firm on the West Coast, and in my opinion, when you’re interviewing for an entry-level position, generic is best. For example, if you try to be too clever and end up sounding corny — or worse, pompous — you won’t get the interview. Also, if you have a typo in your cover letter, you won’t get the interview. We pretty much focus on your resume rather than the cover letter, so I actually think that a relatively generic cover letter is fine. Anything else could backfire and actually hurt your chances.

      There are some exceptions, of course. If you are a lateral hire rather than an entry level, it’s useful to have some information about your practice experience and to understand why you think you’d be a good fit for the law firm (or if you’re responding to a specified opening at the firm, why you meet the criteria listed for the opening). Also, if you’re looking to go into a specified area of the law and you have relevant background experience, such as non-law (or law-related) work experience that’s relevant to the field, or a non-law graduate degree, it’s good to talk about that. Similarly, if you are applying to a boutique firm (or for a public interest job), I think it’s useful to talk about relevant experience and/or to provide specific information about why you’re interested in the firm and the area in which it focuses.

      But for a summer clerkship or generic entry-level position, I think it’s generally better to be bland unless you have a unique connection to the law firm.

    • L

      This may seem obvious, but one thing my Judge couldn’t stand was when people went on about how great this experience would be for them–the clerkship would teach them x, help them with y, improve their skills in x. He knows that! Tell him why you’re better than the other guy–what do you have to offer.

      • Shayna

        I just got done lecturing my younger brother on this…

        You’re not in college any more – i.e. the world is not about you!

        “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country” is the phrase I told him to keep in mind as he applies…

      • CJ in CA

        Really? I just sent a clerkship letter in and was asked to answer the question: “Why do you want to clerk?” It seemed like the goal was to weed out people who couldn’t articulate what they want other than prestige. It also puffs up the ego of the judge: you would be such a great teacher, and I’d learn so much about the law, and honor, blah blah blah. I’m not disagreeing, I’m just surprised.

        In firm letters though, I totally agree. You are selling yourself to a for profit business.

    • Eponine

      Think of it as a mini writing sample, so make sure it’s polished and concise, and uses perfect grammar, spelling and punctuation. Don’t reiterate your entire resume, but pull out the highlights that are most relevant to the job and emphasize anything that’s not on your resume but is relevant (e.g. if you were referred by someone at the firm, if you have lived in the town where the firm’s located previously, if you took a lot of coursework on the firm’s area of expertise, etc). And keep it concise – personally I rarely read cover letters that are more than three paragraphs, so if you go on and on, the person reading it might not get to the most important part before she gets bored and moves on to the next applicant.

    • Shayna

      Not an attorney, but have done hiring/review of cover letters in accounting —

      Generally I would limit yourself to 3 paragraphs, cut anything that isn’t essential — If you bore me in the first paragraph, I may not finish reading the page – especially if you’re one of 100 or so letters.

      I’ve found that the cover letter in general is becoming more and more optional (again, not an attorney, so if this isn’t true in law firms, I apologize) – so use it to list the interesting skill you have, a particularly impressive internship, an unusual certification, or if you have any particular passion for the job you’re applying for.

    • Ariella

      Most importantly, we look for candidates that meet the criteria from the job posting. For example, my firm IS hiring and we want someone with 4-6 years of experience and prefer someone with a book of business. We’ve gotten applications from about 50 new grads or 2009 grads who are looking for a job. On the one hand, I understand that the economy sucks and that they’re desperate for a job. On the other hand, WTF? Interning for a trial level judge or working for another firm similar to ours as a summer clerk is not “litigation experience,” no matter how you stretch it.

      As for the cover letters themselves, really attempt to gear your cover letter to the job requirements listed. If the requirements are vague, consider whether you know someone at the firm that you could call for additional information about their needs.

      One of the best cover letters I saw this time around was from a candidate who opened by stating his trial and appellate experience in some detail, outlined some of the clients he might bring with him, and then concisely stated why he would be a good choice for the firm. He really sold himself, and that cover letter made a good impression on the hiring committee. That’s really what we’re looking for in a cover letter, anyway.

      You really ought to write a different cover letter for every job to which you apply, but sometimes a generic one will do. If you have some pre-law experience in a certain area that the firm’s interested in, make sure you point it out.

    • CSF

      In the same vein as improving cover letters/resumes, is studying abroad really worth it? For all of you hiring partners out there, is this something that will actually pay off on a resume?

      • anon - chi

        If you are talking about studying abroad during law school and then applying to private law firms, the answer is an emphatic NO, at least in my experience. I am not a hiring partner but our firm takes associates’ comments on candidates seriously, and studying abroad in law school says two very negative things to me:

        1. My grades in law school were bad, and I needed the GPA boost commonly provided by these programs; and/or
        2. I was more concerned about having fun in law school than in preparing for practice in the US.

        My answer would definitely be different if you want to practice in international law and plan to study abroad for that purpose. Otherwise, study abroad is a great thing to do in undergrad, but NOT in law school.

        • CSF

          Okay, thanks for the response, and for what it’s worth, this is for during law school. I DO plan on doing international law (either business transactions or humanitarian) and I speak Arabic, and the opportunity to study for 4 weeks in Amman, Jordan this summer has come up. I am a 2L at good school, grades are great, and I have a job for the other part of the summer. This won’t change my graduation time or interrupt my studies. I’m just having a hard time determining whether the immediate expense of the study abroad will pay off in the long run (as far as getting a better job).

          • anon - chi

            That’s a totally different situation – if you can swing the expense, it sounds like a really amazing opportunity, and it would make for great conversation starter in interviews. For the record, my negative reaction is to law students who take an entire semester or even a full year of school to study abroad in another English-speaking country, even though they have no plans to practice international law.

      • Anonymous

        What practice area? I practice an area of international law, and international experience that gives you familiarity with comparative legal systems (especially civil law skills) and professional (legal) fluency in a foreign language is a HUGE plus. Even if you don’t gain those two skills, you’ll gain skills in intercultural communications and networking, make professional connections, and possibly prove your ability to work under rough conditions in the developing world. All those are pluses too.

        • CSF

          I would like to work in international corporate law (business transactions, corporate governance, work visas for a specific corporation, etc). It would be nice if it were Middle East specific, given the language background, but I also speak Spanish. I would get to take classes in Islamic Business Transactions, International Organizations, and International Humanitarian Rights, so I think those would be beneficial. I came straight from undergrad to law school, and have had average firm jobs during the past two summers, so I’m hoping if I choose to go on this study, then this will be the extra “kick” my resume needs.

    • Clerky

      You need to sell yourself in a cover letter, but in an understated way. Talk about all of your key accomplishments, particularly things that most hiring partners care about, like grades, journal experience, moot court, etc. If you worked between college and law school, I would make sure to talk about that as well. I find that most lawyers really like to see more mature candidates who have had some prior professional experience. It sets you apart from all of the young 23 olds without a lick of experience (no offense to that crowd, but I’m just saying!).

      Also, while this is obvious, I am consistently surprised by the number of cover letters I have seen with typos or even with the wrong firm name! Please don’t do that. Ask for a second and third and fourth opinion on your letter to ensure that these types of mistakes are caught. Good luck.

  10. Anon

    Re the Dooney & Burke tote — it’s great but satill a bit pricey on sale. My favorite inexpensive but professionalolution for a big tote bag is the big selection from Merona at Target — only $30. They hold up well, have lots of pockets, including a padded insert for a netbook or small notebook computer. I have one in leather and one in microfiber. Love them!

    http://www.target.com/Merona-Soft-Tote-Black/dp/B000FCI6Q8/ref=sr_1_18?ie=UTF8&searchView=grid5&qid=1271464705&frombrowse=0&fromGsearch=true&node=1038576%7C1287991011&keywords=merona%20tote&searchSize=30&id=Merona%20Soft%20Tote%20Black&searchBinNameList=purchasing_channel%2Csubjectbin%2Ctarget_com_age%2Ctarget_com_gender-bin%2Ctarget_com_character-bin%2Cprice%2Ctarget_com_primary_color-bin%2Ctarget_com_size-bin%2Ctarget_com_brand-bin&searchNodeID=1038576%7C1287991011&searchRank=target104545&sr=1-18&searchPage=1

    http://www.target.com/Merona-Microfiber-Tote-Black/dp/B000FCE9L4/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&searchView=grid5&qid=1271464705&frombrowse=0&fromGsearch=true&node=1038576%7C1287991011&keywords=merona%20tote&searchSize=30&id=Merona%20Microfiber%20Tote%20Black&searchBinNameList=purchasing_channel%2Csubjectbin%2Ctarget_com_age%2Ctarget_com_gender-bin%2Ctarget_com_character-bin%2Cprice%2Ctarget_com_primary_color-bin%2Ctarget_com_size-bin%2Ctarget_com_brand-bin&searchNodeID=1038576%7C1287991011&searchRank=target104545&sr=1-25&searchPage=1

    • RR

      I have the “leather” one of these. I’ve been in the market for a great black work tote for years – willing to spend $500+. I bought the Target one as a stopgap measure. I love it. It’s the perfect size – holds everything, including my laptop. Perfect strap length, lots of pockets. Even metal feet on the bottom. And $30. Love.

  11. Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler

    I am considering applying to the Inns of Court here in Colorado. Is there anyone who is part of an Inn (any Inn) that can (1) give me some insight on how it is to be a member and (2) provide some advice about things to include in my cover letter/application? Almost done with my 1st year! Yay!

    • Amber

      I have nothing to contribute to answering your question, but CONGRATULATIONS on almost being a 2L!!! This time next year you will be counting down the days (an even 400 for me until graduation!).

    • Legally Brunette

      Fantastic question and I would love to know the answer as well. I thought that there were some Inns of Court that you had to get recommended to and could not apply directly. I would LOVE to hear from anyone who is currently in one, how you get selected, etc.

    • 1L NYC

      I am in an Inn here this year, and I had to (1) write a very short application with something like a personal statement and (2) I just had a general legal experience resume here — I applied when I had just entered law school, so I don’t think that either of these was particularly important to the Inn. Also, I highly recommend doing this — I love being part of an Inn as a student, and it is a great way to meet practicing attorneys in your area and some judges too!

    • RR

      I am a member of our local Inn of Court. It is a fabulous networking opportunity. For me, it’s a dinner and CLE every month. You do have to commit to going. People get kicked out if they miss too many. As I recall, my cover letter was really a bit of a formality. I think a paralegal did it for me when I first started at the firm and it wasn’t optional to join the Inn.

    • RR

      Sorry – missed that you were in law school. We have students in our Inn, and I think it’s the same process.

  12. delurking

    So I’m probably crazy but I’m on the verge of turning down full tuition at Columbia for Harvard. Has anyone been in a similar position? I just can’t help but feel like not only would I enjoy H more, I would be losing something by not attending.

    I just need some reassurance to pull the trigger (or not!)

    • anon

      I’d definitely take the money in this economy. Even people from the best schools are coming out unemployed or with jobs that aren’t as lucrative/exciting as they expected they’d be able to get when they entered law school. Most top schools do have great LRAPs now, but there is no guarantee that they will be as generous 4 years down the road when 5x as many people as expected are taking part in the plans and fewer people have the money to donate to keep it going.

    • guest

      I turned down a full at NYU for H because I wanted to do appellate work, get a federal clerkship (maybe SCOTUS), and become a professor. That made H obviously the right choice. I think H is also helpful if you have political leanings, because of the name. Those two paths aside … I liked H well enough, but I don’t know why you would “enjoy” it there. I had to take full loans, which are really stressful to carry, even when you have a job that makes it easy to pay them. And there’s actually a lot of negativity about H grads (that we’re lazy and entitled) that doesn’t hit Columbia grads as hard, even though Columbia carries much of the prestige. I would certainly think really seriously about the scholarship. That said, I can’t whole-heartedly recommend against H. I do feel I have a good safety net under me, and I have a lot of confidence in my ability to switch jobs and be successful in applications even in this market. So I don’t feel very trapped, and I don’t know if I would have that level of confidence with another school, I just don’t know.

    • Lucy

      I would not turn down full tuition at Columbia for Harvard. I understand that Harvard is, well . . . Harvard. But it’s not like Columbia is a Albany Law School either (no offense to Albany, just using it as an example).

      Believe me, even if you’re thinking you’re going to take one of those big firm, $160-80K jobs when you graduate, after taxes and your other expenses — a large student debt load will be felt. Not to mention that you have sooooooo much more freedom when you don’t have loans.

      And keep in mind, if you don’t love Columbia, you can probably transfer after 1st year. Go to Columbia.

    • mm

      Congratulations! I echo anon’s comment–take the money. Both are excellent schools with fantastic reputations. That said, not being limited in terms of your post-graduation options due to loan debt is priceless, particularly given the uncertainties with the economy and shifting hiring/compensation trends within the legal field.

    • KZ

      Go to Columbia. It is basically as good of a school, and not being in debt (or even if you have to take out loans for housing, not adding on $120,000 in debt) will give you so many more options when you graduate, especially in this economy (I’m at a top school, and don’t have a job yet, and have plenty of friends that don’t have jobs yet, and all our grades are pretty good. I also have some friends at Harvard that don’t have jobs). I graduate in May, and I really regret not going to a slightly lower ranked school and taking more money right now. If you really hate it, you can always try to transfer after a year–Harvard takes a fairly large transfer class, and if you could get in the first time, you can probably get in as a transfer assuming you don’t really mess up your 1L grades (and you probably won’t).

    • K

      Take the money!!!!!! I had friends at Harvard and friends at Columbia and the latter were happier at school, plus had NYC (which is GREAT for school). Plus for almost all job opportunities, Columbia is equal to Harvard. The loans are not worth the extra 4 points (or whatever it is) in rankings.

    • anonalso

      I turned down full tuition at Berkeley for Stanford over a decade ago (yikes I feel old). I loved, loved, loved my school experience, graduated in boom times, got plenty of biglaw job offers, and accepted one. A few years later while my husband was in grad school I had a child and cut back to part time. That was a financial struggle given the student loan debt I had, and I have spent many, many (many!) hours lamenting that student debt. But 10 years and a working husband later the debt feels almost irrelevant. I feel like the name brand education has opened a lot of doors for me, including helping me find great (rare) part time opportunties. But Berkeley is also name brand (and Columbia too) and it is likely those opportunties would have been the same had I taken the bargain. Looking back, I would probably not change my experience if I could ecause now its mine and I treasure it (but maybe I would), I’d say go with free top law school over really expensive top law school. Things might not have worked out so well for me if I had graduated during a difficult economy, and now that I have it, I’d say financial freedom is close to priceless.

    • legalicious07

      delurking —

      Wow! What an enviable position you are in! I know your decision is tough, but I’d encourage you to come to HLS anyday! I think you were the same poster who asked in an earlier thread about pantyhose for African-American women. My memory is shaky on that, but if that was you, please let me know! I can put you in touch with our Recruitment Chair at Harvard BLSA and other fellow BLSA members who will be happy to talk about our experience here at Harvard, why we picked HLS over other schools (and scholarships), and how our experience has shaped up so far. I, too, turned down other financially generous options to go to HLS, and I haven’t regretted it a day since!

      • delurking

        Legalicious – I was that poster! I will email Kat with my details and if you can do the same, she can exchange them. I would love to hear from current students and the BLSA and the diversity of the H community is something that really attracts me.

        I know the financial argument, I really do. But I honestly go to sleep smiling at the thought of going to Harvard. Seriously. I do have long term political leanings long term and I do like the flexibility that I think the H name does bring. My UG name has opened a lot of doors for me so I understand the power of prestige. But then there is the cost…

        • legalicious07

          Hi delurking,

          Ok, I will send my info to Kat. I just have to figure out how to reach her directly. Also, by when do you have to make your final decision? This is the last week of classes here at HLS so everyone is in serious study mode (except my quick break to check Corporette, of course :-b). We are all MORE than happy to answer your questions about HLS because, as I said it before, this is just a great place to be! That said, I want to be realistic and say that people may be a little less available in the coming 2 – 2.5 weeks than normal. :-)

    • Anon

      Unless you have some specific reason to choose H over C, other than its prestige, you should go with C. It’s still a terrific school where you will have great teachers and friends. My friends who went to Harvard didn’t seem especially excited about it. And not having the debt will be huge.

      That said, some schools are better for some things than others. If there are specific courses at H that you can’t take at C, or there are student groups that you think you’d want to join, maybe that would suggest going to H.

      Otherwise I agree with the other posters that you’d be crazy to turn down the full ride.

    • Harvard 1L

      I turned down a full ride to Columbia for Harvard. I got the Hamilton and then the Sharp, which was a full ride plus a stipend, both of which I said no to.

      It was a tough decision, obviously, but at this point I would do it again. I want to clerk, and Harvard will help me with that. Columbia doesn’t really give any mentoring or special perks along with those full rides, which would have swayed me more. And I’ve really liked Harvard. I love my classmates. They are going to change/run the world someday. There are more public interest people here than you would think, which is nice. My professors have been awesome…

      Yeah, I hesitated, but I would do it again. And I wasn’t even excited about law school! That being said, it’s a lot of money. Also, I think we are happier than my friends at other schools. It’s less competitive the higher you are ranked because you don’t have to do as well. All of our study groups and outline shares are very cooperative, which I love. I think the bad economy is extra reason to go to the best school possible, not a reason to avoid loans.

      If you just want to work at a big firm, I would do Columbia. If you want to work in government or academia potentially, go to Harvard.

      If you have any other questions, you can ask me. When I was deciding the Harvard admissions office put me in touch with people who had made the same decision.

      • Corinne

        CLS 3L. I hate law school, absolutely regret going, but I think these comments about Harvard’s unique offerings are misguided. I know plenty of CLS grads who’ve clerked (my two closest friends are clerking, and I know five who are starting next year, all over the country), plenty who’ve gone into politics, and plenty who’ve gone into academia. I find it hard to believe that Harvard truly has something to offer that CLS (or any top school not named Harvard) does not — except, of course, for its name, which in my opinion is not worth $160,000 in debt. (For what it’s worth, I only applied to NYU and CLS for law school and was admitted to both. I hold no grudge against Harvard, having never been there; I just don’t think an HLS degree is worth $160,000 + interest more than a degree from any other competitive law school.)

        • 3L

          Hi Corinne, I too hate law school and often regret going, and I am in a 2nd tier school which makes it all the worse. Can you tell me why you dislike it so much? I’m sick of other students saying “oh, I love law school”, could use some commiseration. And thanks for your candor, I think some people are in serious denial when they say they love it (at least those people in my school).

          • anon

            I hated it as well, but probably not for the typical reasons people hate law school. I came in at almost 30 and felt that there was a lot of pressure at my school for people to be married and start families by 30. I was happily single and had no interest in getting married or starting a family.

            Furthermore, I was used to a much more diverse environment than I experienced in law school. Most of them came from similar backgrounds, went to similar types of schools, and while they had some work experience, it was mostly the typical pre-law job. Overall everyone was very friendly/collegial, but I think it wasn’t a place where having unusual interests was really encouraged. I think a lot of people pretended to be happy, but I found that a lot of my friends did have some level of discontent with the experience.

      • Anonymous

        I also turned down the Sharp to go to Harvard and have no regrets! Although Columbia is an amazing school and I’m sure I would have had plenty of wonderful opportunities, I think I would have always wondered “what might have been” if I had turned down Harvard. There are lots of people at HLS who turned down Hamilton, Sharp, and the NYU scholarships … if you think it would help to talk to any of them, call the admissions office and they’ll put you in touch.

    • Anon

      First thing Monday morning, call Harvard’s admissions office. Explain that you are very interested in accepting/attending but that you have a full ride at Columbia and money is going to be a factor in your decision so can they match Columbia’s offer? I know people who did this and my law school (top 10) matched or exceeded the other school’s offer (sometimes the other school was higher ranked, sometimes lower). Worth a shot before you make your decision.

      • delurking

        Thanks. H only give needs based but I hear it is ‘negotiable’. I will definitely call them asap.

        Thanks everyone. I probably don’t sound like I am listening but I am and I am definitely digesting. I think without aid, HLS is a very difficult option to justify.

        But I’m gonna keep researching and working at it and I’ll update!

        This is such a wonderful community.

        • Anon

          Hi, original Anon here. Definitely call them – I went to H for undergrad (did not qualify for aid and will remain eternally grateful to parents who generously footed bill) but I know other people who “negotiated” the need-based aid package they were offered.

          • Anon

            I did not go to Harvard, but went to another well regarded school (w/ a large endowment). A phone call to the admissions/financial aid office can do wonders.

    • Eponine

      I cannot even explain to you how much easier your life will be if you are debt-free or nearly debt-free. Harvard is great and you will get a great job and be able to pay off your debt, but you’ll be a slave to debt for 5 or 10 years. Columbia is great and you will get a great job and if you hate it you will be able to quit and get another great job. Go to Columbia.

    • NB

      I also turned down the Columbia scholarship for Harvard, and several years out from law school (still with loans, no longer making private sector money), I would absolutely make the same choice again. But you have to look realistically about what you think you will get out of law school and why Harvard is a better choice. Can you articulate some of the reasons? For me, the alumni network and name recognition were critical (no other American law school comes close in terms of international prestige, and I wanted/needed that for my post-graduation plans). That was in addition to the actual course offerings, the professors, the public sector loan repayment, legal clinics, and a number of other specific HLS factors.

      Also, as an African-American woman also, I have to say that having the HLS diploma opens doors that are still shut for a lot of us.

      Good luck!

      • delurking

        I don’t want to be too specific but my interests are DC focused (and the international prestige is crucial) and it is not clear that Columbia is peer to Harvard except in NY Biglaw (which I do not want).

        I know I will not enjoy Columbia or the NY community as much I would like Boston and HLS and do especially NOT want to be trapped in NY afterwards. Besides, living in NY for school while on a strict budget sounds like hell. I also know that the COL are so high there that paying off the COL (70k ish over the 3 years) would probably be a nightmare no matter what salary I am on. I’m sure every associate is expected to spend 5k on rent and 4k on clothes or whatever while everyone parties like bankers and lives out their 20s for an additional 20 years. It is just not me and the thought of spending three years and a lot of money (in opp cost) for this to be my life is more terrifying than any debt.

        Primarily I’m concerned that I spend 3 years in Columbia and in the end can only get… various shades of NY Biglaw! Essentially I’m trying to get a read on if I can get, let’s say, prestigious (or not) DC big law from Columbia without having to be top of the class. I know that is the case in Harvard. I’d rather live in Boston, Va, Philly anywhere than permanently in NY.

        Sorry, I probably sound a bit negative but am honestly beginning to feel quite down about the whole thing. I almost wish Columbia hadn’t given me any money and then I could have just taken H happily. Now I feel like I’ll be mortgaging my financial future with one path (for H) and everything else I value, care about and have worked hard for on the other.

        • Anonymous

          As a DC attorney with influence on hiring, I can absolutely promise you that a CLS student and a HLS student with otherwise comparable credentials will do equally well in the DC job market.

        • anon - chi

          Ditto for Chicago, for what it’s worth, and probably for most other markets as well. You would not be “trapped” anywhere as a Columbia grad, nor would you have to be at the top of your class to get a good job in another market.

          That said – it *really* sounds like you have already made up your mind! If you’ve already weighed the pros and cons, then accept at Harvard, put Columbia out of your mind, and enjoy what should be a very exciting time in your life!

    • anon

      go to H. If just the idea of H makes you this happy, then just go.

      also, look into H’s LRAP program.

      • Lawgirl

        The whole “prestige” factor for Harvard Law, is, I think, overrated. I think when you’re talking top 10 law schools, the tiny differentials between #1 and # 4 are inconsequential. Angels don’t sing and harps don’t launch into song because you’re a black Harvard Law grad. Trust me. And I’m a black Stanford Law grad. You’ll find yourself wondering how/why the Tier 3 candidate got hired and you didn’t…. At some point, resume value diminishes and some factors you can’t control… And I’ll leave it at that ;-D

    • Legally Brunette

      First off, congratulations on having two such wonderful options. Both are fantastic schools and you won’t go wrong in going to either one. However, I agree that while the Harvard factor cannot be denied, I would find it hard pressed to turn down a full ride at Columbia. Columbia is a top 5 school and their graduates go on to amazing and wonderful opportunities, just like Harvard graduates. I am currently at a firm where many of my colleagues are saddled with $200 K or more in debt. Meanwhile, I went to law school on a full ride and it is amazing what that kind of freedom has given me — I bought a house, go out to eat, bought a car, save a ton of money every month, and just generally am not so preoccupied with money like my colleagues are. And I have received the same opportunities as others at top schools (ie: top law firm, top federal clerkships, etc.) because I made sure to work hard in law school.

      Many of my colleagues feel obligated to stay in big law for several years to pay off their loans, while I feel no such pressure. And that’s a great feeling. Think very, very carefully about this decision, as I am sure you will!

      • delurking

        I pretty much accept the disparity argument but I have a quick question for everyone here re the debt. If I make 160k, my assumption is about 110k in take home after tax, maybe 100k. This would be 9k a month after tax. I intend to work in DC and I currently work in a more expensive city (London) and make about 2k a month after tax. I save about £3 – 400 of that each month. I’ve mostly used that to pay off other debts so I’ll be debt free after from LS loans.

        I just can’t get a handle on whether or not people immediately spend insane amounts of money when they earn more or if there is some hidden cost that I am just *not getting* which suddenly elevates the cost of living as a lawyer to swallow that 7.5k extra. I can imagine my COL doubling or even tripling but I can not imagine spending 9k a month. I just cannot imagine why this amount of money is so difficult to pay off. Is everyone really struggling to pay this off?

        I’ve lived in DC on $1100 a month stipend. I lived with a lawyer and a staffer. I lived in NoVa, wore suits and was 30 min on the metro from K street and had a ball. Interns and staffers on the Hill (who were my friends) were on v low salaries all managed fine. I’m not doubting the testimony of people here and on other threads but if I forgo topping up my 401k for say, 3 years, and just focus on paying down as much debt as possible, why can’t I pay down $100k in this time? Let’s say I would have to pay off say 40k a year (due to interest), which would leave me – a single person with no dependents and no UG/CC/other debt at all – to live on 70k a year. What am I missing? I am not having children or planning any Super Sweet 16 style weddings over this time period – trust me, I’m not going to spend money and time on my career and then throw it all away because someone gives me the glad eye. And I’m just not that expensive.

        I’m not denying that it is a lot of money and it may be a waste of money given Columbia’s ranking and prestige in itself. That’s where I’m wavering. I’m happy to have the money if I can rather than give it to a bank BUT basically as I have to sign up to take on debt (I’d have to take on COL in NY for Columbia which would be about 70k over the 3 years anyway) of which I have no experience, can someone just give me an honest assessment of paying off a lot of money and how difficult/easy that was?

        Because the debt averseness of the people on these threads seems to jar with the idea that they are making 1/5 – 1/4 of a million dollars a year.

        • anon

          From HLS, you’ll probably come out with a minimum of $210-220K of debt + interest on any of your unsubsidized (the vast majority) of your loans. The difference between that and $70K cannot be understated.

          I think you’re assuming we’re still in the boom times where you get a summer associate position, get an offer, and start the job a month or two after you take the bar. That is not the case now. Just because you can get a summer associate position doesn’t mean you’ll necessarily get an offer that will start in October, much less any offer at all. If the worst does happen and you don’t get an offer, you can bet that those $160K positions won’t be available when you look the second time around. I graduated last year and had quite a classmates who had job offers from those $160K firms rescinded and they were struggling to find anything before graduation. Yes, it’s possible that the job market will improve by 2013, but I don’t think we’ll see anything like what we saw in 2006 again. Most of my friends when asked said they would have a cheaper school if they had it to do again.

          • anon

            Interest is key, your loans will keep accumulating interest as you try to pay them off. Also, you will probably need to take out private loans which would likely be at a higher rate than the gov’t ones. And I think the private loans accumulate interest during law school too. So it adds up quickly and never really goes away.

          • v

            From HLS, you’ll probably come out with a minimum of $210-220K of debt

            I think this is a really high estimate – $140k – $160k seems more average, given that you’ll have summer and some term-time earnings. Certainly that’s what I ended up with, and I don’t know many people who graduated with higher debt loads than that from HLS.

            OP, normally I’d say that the prudent thing to do is to take Columbia over HLS, and if you were equally excited about both options – or even happy about both options – I’d say to do that. But your happiness is worth something too, and if the idea of going to HLS puts a smile on your face but you’re kind of dreading the prospect of three years at Columbia, I’d take HLS. I went to a cheaper school for undergrad to avoid loans, one that I wasn’t really excited about over one that I was, and while I’m happy with how my life has turned out, I think I would have had a much better college experience if I had done the former. Something like law school is a huge undertaking and you should go in hopeful, optimistic, and excited, not resigned because you felt like you’re giving up what you really wanted.

          • anon

            @v, I think $210-220K is a very reasonable estimate. I think few people realize how fast tuition is going up and how interest rates on private loans are also increasing. The current student budget for HLS is $70,100 per year, of which only $8,500 per year will be subsidized. I think the best case scenario with a good 2L summer associate position is that OP may be able to pay off the interest accrued during the first two years. She’s certainly not going to make enough to pay off the interest and decrease the total debt load by over $50K.

          • v

            ::shrug:: I graduated in 2008 and funded it entirely with loans minus summer (and a few term time earnings) and ended up with $150k in debt and I don’t know many people with higher debt loads. It’s possible things have really, really increased in the last couple of years, but it’s also possible that the budget is set high and some students borrow the max and then live like they’re lawyers while in law school – never a good idea.

        • anon

          I still say go to HLS, esp if you don’t particularly like NYC. I personally find NYC loud and obnoxious and couldn’t imagine studying for law school exams here.

          Also, some people are very good at paying off the debt quickly, and you may end up being one of them. But I thought I’d pay off my debts quickly too, and it hasn’t worked out that way. First, in NYC you can count on 50% of your salary going to fed, state, & local taxes. Second, if you work in biglaw and find it at all stressful (as most people do), you may end up spending a lot of money on the things that make life a little more convenient — e.g., dry cleaning, a nicer apartment, taxis, eating out. If you have the money and are surrounded by people who generally spend a lot, or at least appear to be wealthy, then you may be tempted to treat yourself after a long week on something that you wouldn’t otherwise. If you work in biglaw, you never really have free time to de-stress, and so some people end up trying to make themselves feel better by spending money. Or at least, this is my theory so far. I’d be curious to see how other people answer this.

          • Anon

            Yes, people spend more to make themselves feel better. Also, it is *much* harder to not spend $ when everyone around you does. People socialize by going out to eat and drink $15 margaritas, whereas in grad school gathering around the TV with chips and beer was fine. Both in terms of our own feeling of deprivation when we don’t have the tech toys, fancy clothes and jewelry, and other perks that our friends have, and because of the desire to fit in with your colleagues (which is somewhat necessary on a professional level even if you don’t care personally), you’ll be tempted to spend more.

            Also, hundreds of dollars in tips for your secretary; health insurance is not as heavily subsidized as it is by schools and some employers; etc. – lots of little expenses do add up.

        • DJ

          Yeah, the interest rate right now on loans is 8% Thats on 200k of the 220k total. And your not taking home 110k, I’d say your taking home 90k. Plus the odds of getting a job at all have shrunk enormously, not to mention if you get one, it might not start until a year after you graduate.

        • DJ

          If you intend to work in DC did you apply to Georgetown? I know its lower ranked but you have access to a lot of DC connections.

        • KZ

          that was my assumption. then the economy crashed. those lovely $160,000 jobs are very hard to get now and are not starting on time, so you have to spend the first year usually with a deferral stipend of $60-80k before taxes, all the while interest is piling up on your loans. And 8% on a lot of money is a lot of money. Not as easy as it seems. You have to remember back in the boom times, part of the way people were quickly paying off their law schools debts was with their very large bonuses, which no longer exist, either. So in theory it seems like it will work, but really… no.

        • Eponine

          I think there’s a few points you’re missing. First, the lifestyle of a biglaw lawyer will cause you to incur many expenses you would not otherwise have. I am in the public sector now and live nicely in a small, non-luxury building with a downstairs laundry room, no concierge, and don’t own a car. I work 45 hours/week and have plenty of time to go to the grocery store, wait for the bus, do laundry downstairs, clean my place, cook, go for a run, etc. My biglaw friends work 70-80 hours/week and do not have time for these things. Instead, they drop off a lot of dry cleaning, live in a more expensive apartment with a washer/dryer and dishwasher, order takeout or eat out, work out with a trainer so they maximize their workout in limited time, hire someone to clean, take taxis or own a car (and pay for parking), live in a concierge building so the concierge can sign for packages, etc.

          Second, if you’re in a position where you must make minimum payments of, say, $2,500/mo, you will not have the option of taking a lower paying job because you are unhappy with your current job.

          Third, if you hate your current job as many of my biglaw friends do, you will more than likely splurge on nice vacations, shopping, spa services, and restaurant meals to make your personal time more relaxing and enjoyable. I like my current job, and don’t feel the need to escape with late-night drinks and long weekends in the Caribbean.

          Fourth, my first and third points will make it much harder for you to save any substantial amount of money, thus reinforcing point number two.

          Fifth, I had the same attitude as you when I was a law student. Then I graduated and moved forward in life, and realized that all the things that had never been a priority for me – home ownership, marriage, kids, furniture, medical expenses, even charitable giving – were becoming priorities. I can’t live on the budget I lived on at age 25 anymore. For example, living in an area where there are decent public schools would mean living a 60+ minute commute from my office – and there’s no way I can afford private school. And with that move will come the purchase of a car, and babysitters or after-school care, and God knows what else. Your life changes as you get older, even if you don’t think it will.

          Really, I have massive debt, and I get by but I’m not getting ahead. I’m really, really jealous of people who don’t have debt, and I often feel like I’m stuck in the lifestyle of a 25 year old because I decided to move on to a job I like before I’d paid off any significant portion of my debt. It’s a constant uphill battle. If I’d taken a full ride at not-my-dream-school, I don’t know if I’d have the job that I currently have and like. Maybe I’d be stuck in a small town. But then again, the not-my-dream-school was hardly CLS. I can’t imagine any limitations that going to CLS would place on you that would be worth living in a studio apartment until you’re 40.

          • SF Bay Associate

            This. I agree with all five points. I’m in my second year of BigLaw, the last class to semi-survive the economic crisis. Some of my friends still don’t have attorney jobs. I was very lucky to land my job, which started at 160k and then was cut to 145k not long after I started, and then more compensation shenanigans after that. Don’t bet on 160k… those days are gone for a lot of firms.

            I put myself through undergrad living frugally, but it’s not feasible to that anymore. I don’t have time to cook, so I have to eat out. It’s hard to bring my lunch, though I try. Big law requires a certain wardrobe, which costs a lot even shopping clearance sales, plus dry cleaning and tailoring. I need good (expensive) shoes because I’m on my feet all day. I have been putting off getting a personal trainer because it’s expensive, but BigLaw is bad for your health and I am going to have to take the plunge.

            As a subset of Eponine’s points 1 and 3, psychotherapy is another surprise expense. BigLaw is depressing, stressful, and exhausting. It seems to bring out all sorts of issues that I, and some of my friends, were good at suppressing/ignoring/dealing with on our own just fine before work. All of my friends in biglaw, across various practices and firms, hate their jobs. We are all plotting our escape. You may be surprised to find you feel the same way, too.

            Even so, I am paying off the last of my loans this month, 22 months after I graduated? How? I didn’t start with nearly as much debt in the first place. I went to a slightly lower ranked school which gave me better grants and… sigh… moved back in with my parents. Kinda like living in NYC for the OP, I really didn’t like it, but I made do because it was only for three years, and it allowed me to save a LOT of money. Avoiding living expenses + the grants were huge – I graduated with 70k in debt. And now I can leave my biglaw job when I am ready to, because I can afford to go. My friends, with 100k-160k debt, are 100% stuck.

            I know Harvard has a lot of cachet, and works very hard to maintain its rep, but I cannot fathom why anyone would walk away from a free ride to Columbia.

          • anonymous

            agree w/ both of the above regarding how easy it is to spend a lot of money while working biglaw

          • v

            Second, if you’re in a position where you must make minimum payments of, say, $2,500/mo, you will not have the option of taking a lower paying job because you are unhappy with your current job.

            True for a lot of schools, but HLS’s loan repayment program truly is fantastic. OP, check out the chart on their website; it gives you a lot of freedom to take lower paying jobs if that’s what you end up wanting.

        • K

          Your payoff plans sound completely reasonable, IF you have a $160K+ biglaw job upon graduating

          You just can’t count on that anymore.

          • Lawgirl

            @SF Bay Associate – Can I hug you? I was SO YOU about 8 years ago. You nailed it, on all levels… Psychotherapy is about $150/hour ($250/hour for psychiatrist). That’s $600/month right there just for shrinks.. plus personal trainer $200/month… I laughed (and cried) when you wrote about “plotting your escapes.” :O/

          • anonymous

            Yes, I agree w/ SF Associate and Lawgirl — I pay over $1k/month on psych visits and probably a couple hundred/month on meds. It is a huge money suck, and I never in a million years would’ve guessed that I would be in this position — yet here I am.

            This also goes back to not being able to predict the future and count on paying back your loans quickly. (That said, I’d still pick HLS :)

          • SF Bay Associate

            @lawgirl and anonymous 5:14 – thanks for your support/admission. There is such a terrible stigma about going to therapy that I put off going longer than I should have and I made it so much worse for myself. I was on antidepressants for about a year, and have been off them for a few months now. They were an absolute godsend at the time, once I got on the right kind/dosage (trial and error a bit).

            I’m not embarassed about the therapy/drugs and freely tell close friends, but that’s not exactly something you can broadcast at work. I wonder how many corporettes have been to/are currently in therapy. High powered women in highly stressful jobs –> therapy. Perhaps Kat will do a post at some point.

          • anonymous

            No, def can’t tell at work, which is a problem if you’re going off to “doctor visits” every week! People will start to suspect something else. Too bad because if you were doing, e.g., physical therapy, you could tell people where you were going and they would be respectful of that and let you go… but psychotherapy, no.

            I wish I could tell my employer b/c I know that this problem (+ the effects of meds) interferes sometimes w/ work and I know they must suspect something anyway, but everyone has advised against doing this…

            Btw, SF Associate, I’m envious you’re off meds now (congrats)… I’m on like 10 different things now and my pdoc won’t let me off any of them, but I really wish I could. Maybe someday!

        • A.

          This is all wonderful, but it involves a hell of a lot of assumptions. What if you don’t get a $100K job? What if you get to Harvard and end up in the bottom of the class? What happens if you graduate and the best job you can get is $40,000 a year? It seems like that’s happening a lot these days. Everyone is used to not living on much when they’re young, but do you want to be 30, still driving a beater car and living in a cruddy apartment with roommates, buying cheap suits and taking vacations to your parents’ house? It happens to a lot of people and I don’t know anyone who’s done that who feels good about it.

          You say you don’t PLAN on getting married. If Mr. Absolutely Perfect walked through the door, would you really say “nope, sorry, I gotta pay off my law-school loans!” Let me tell you, the women I know who did that at 27 are pretty sad about it now that they’re 36, and everyone else has partners and families. Many of them I know feel they have been sidelined, and have to watch everyone else have neat experiences they wish they were having. The fancy degree and high-powered careers aren’t much solace.

          I was young once too, and I love optimism – love it. But quite frankly, the amount you’re talking about is not chump change. I said this on another thread, but the opportunity cost on $160-$200K is huge. It’s houses, cars, vacations, fun experiences, freedom. If your very best friend was getting married in Hawaii and wanted you to go, and you couldn’t because you didn’t have the money, would you feel good about that? Would you feel the debt was worth it? There are a lot of experiences out there outside of having the name “Harvard” on a diploma that are also worth it. That’s what I would weigh against taking on that much debt.

          FWIW – one of my debate teammates from college did exactly what you’re saying – graduated from a good school with about $160K in debt, got a BigLaw job, and paid it off. In the meantime he lived in crappy apartments, drove a crappy car that broke down constantly, and never did anything but work – because he hated BigLaw and wanted to get out if it as fast as he could, but could not because of the money. He refers to it as the “golden handcuffs” he wore for those five years. He got the debt paid off and now works for our state attorney general, but told me that working nonstop and hating his life for five years was not worth it. You may not be old enough to have had this experience, but the first time you see someone under 40 die, you will realize life is pretty short and any amount of it you spend miserable is probably too much. Be sure you know exactly what you’re mortgaging your life for before you sign the deed.

          • MelD

            As someone who is happily childless and single in my 30s I have to say that I hate the argument that you may be jealous when all your friends are married with kids. My friends started to have kids in their late 20s and I haven’t changed my mind one bit.

            I don’t think that Harvard is worth the extra $150K in debt, but I do find it to be incredibly insulting when people who are married w/kids have this “I know better” condescending attitude when they are around me. I thought I wanted kids when I was in my early 20s and then by the time I was 30 I realized it was the last thing I wanted.

          • v

            Wait, why on Earth would you say no to marriage because you have to pay off law school loans? This isn’t 1927; women don’t have to give up their jobs when they get married. Or am I missing something?

          • anon - chi

            @ MelD – I think the point isn’t that you will *definitely* want to do these things, but rather that a lot can change over time. For some women it is certainly true that they know from an early age that they will never ever in a million years want children, and they never do. For MANY others, they think they don’t want those things when they are younger, but have completely reversed course 10 years later when they meet Mr. (or Ms.) Perfect. It’s just a door that you may not want to close (or make much, much more complicated) when you are still young and have not yet started your career.

          • KZ

            v–a lot of law school loan repayment programs will include your spouse/domestic partner’s income into your loan repayment calculation, so it can actually decrease the amount of lrap assistance you get. Some schools also account for spouse’s graduate debt, but I know my school just started including this in the calculation last year, and still don’t factor in undergrad debt of the spouse.

          • v

            The details for HLS are all on the website. I’m not married, but I believe they’ll factor in something like half the spouse’s income, excluding what he’s paying in loans. But honestly, if that pushes you over the limit, you can probably afford to pay your loans! When you look at the tables on their chart, they’re pretty generous – there’s no income cap that limits participation; the key is that they’ll never require you to pay over a certain percent of your income in loans.

        • Legally Brunette

          I have been reading all of the comments here, particularly the ones about spending a lot more money when you’re in BigLaw. I agree with that to a certain extent, but not entirely. When I started at my firm last year, I noticed that people here dress very nicely and I clearly needed to ramp up my wardrobe, which I have. I do have a maid that comes in once a month, but she came even when I was in law school, so that wasn’t a function of working at a firm.

          However, for those who say that you spend lots more money on eating out, I would really encourage you to consider spending more time cooking, even if you can only set aside a few hours on the weekend doing it. I work very long hours at my firm but I make it a point to bring my lunch from home every single day, and my husband and I only go out to eat if it is to socialize with friends. Last year, I had the good fortune of having a pretty steady work schedule as a law clerk and I spent a lot of evenings cooking. Sure, some of the food turned out bad initially, but I got way better and have now even begun teaching my girlfriends how to cook! If you don’t feel comfortable in the kitchen, consider signing up for a cooking class, asking your mom to come over and teach you some basics, or even ask a more experienced girlfriend. I certainly don’t have time to cook every day, but I usually cook twice a week or so and then freeze food for the next few days.

          In law school, I was that girl who pretty much lived on frozen dinners and take out. I felt gross and I used to get sick somewhat often. I also was convinced that I had “no time” to cook — in retrospect, that was not true. Everyone has time once in a while to whip up something in an hour, and the benefit of doing that is that you can make enough food for 3-4 meals.

          I can’t express how much better I feel now that I cook, plus I’m convinced that we have saved thousands of dollars over the course of the year. I would really really encourage everyone in BigLaw to give it a try– your body and your checkbook will thank you. :)

          • anonymous

            yes, but what if you really hate cooking? I find it a chore along the lines of doing laundry or cleaning house. Unfortunately though I still have to eat.

        • Anonymous

          Many congratulations on such a happy problem! But please remember what has happened to the legal market as you consider your options. DC Big Law here and the days of the $160k starting salary are all but dead – even for Harvard grads.

    • anon - chi

      I would ordinarily advise taking the higher-ranked school, but in this case, I think it would be crazy not to go to Columbia with a full-ride. Nearly every lawyer I know went to one of the top 6 schools or Northwestern, and I *really* don’t think our opportunities differed in any meaningful way. The main difference in my friends’ experiences at law school related to the size of the law school class and not to rank. But there is a HUGE difference between no law school debt and $150K of law school debt – it affects what positions you can take, whether you feel able to leave private practice if and when you want to do so, and even whether you can stay home with your child should you have kids and want to leave the workforce for some period of time. If you can, you might want to talk to some people who took on that debt and hear from them whether they regret it or not.

      • Lawgirl

        I agree @anon. HLS classes are huge (550); you have to do REALLY well to stand out. Stanford and Yale are <200 per class. If I had to take on $160K in debt in this precarious economic environment, I'd choose SLS or YLS. Just by the sheer numbers, they are both more "prestigious" and selective than Harvard, and I would wager, more collegial, personal, less competitive, and FUN!

    • anon

      Congratulations! You must be a very impressive candidate. As a Columbia Law grad, I must assure you that my classmates went on to judicial clerkships, including SCOTUS clerkships, top jobs in government, on the bench and at non profits, and leadership positions in all size law firms. Plus, the students were diverse and engaged in their non-legal talents — music, dance, sports and the like. Forgive my repeating what others have said, but the choice here is between two of the very top law schools in the country, and both have tremendous international reputations. Given that one of the schools is giving you tuition, I don’t understand why you are hesitating.

    • KelliJ

      Delurking,

      10-10-10 your decision. Look up Suzy Welch and 10-10-10. It’s a great way to sort out your feelings and make decisions on complicated issues based on your unique set of personal values. Everyone is different. Different goals, different views of work, money and prestige. I chose law school based on money, and in some ways regret my choice. Based on the decision YOU are facing, I’m sure that you are a smart, ambitious (in a good way), high achieving woman, and no matter where you go you’ll be successful, but only you can judge your what will make you a success (and this is so personal).

      Good luck!

      • delurking

        Thanks guys!

        I keep going back and forth trying to persuade myself one way or the other but I have a meeting with the fin aid department of both schools today and I am trying to read up on the positive things about both schools to stop myself from getting stressed about it all.

        I’ll also ask Columbia to put me in touch with some alumni in DC and I’m reading everyone’s advice really carefully and it is really useful, especially giving a realistic reading of the debt. It’s difficult to know this stuff because *no one tells you*.

        Will report back when hopefully it is all organised and I have some answers!

        • Legally Brunette

          Good luck with your decision! Sounds like people have lots of advice for you here. :) I highly recommend getting in touch with alumni in DC from both schools. I am a big law lawyer in DC and we have several alums from our firm from both Columbia and Harvard.

  13. Kacey

    I am looking for your opinion. When wearing a v-neck dress or top, should I pair it with a v-neck cardigan or can I mix it up with a scoop neck or crew neck cardigan. Ditto question for when wearing scoop neck top. I like the v-neck with v-neck but of course it limits the options and I wonder if others feel the same way. Am I too caught up with the symmetry ? Any thoughts?

    • Lucy

      Honestly, I just try things on. They either go or not. Do the same and trust your opinion.

      • Samantha

        V necks tend to be lower than scoop necks, but this is not always true.
        My rule of thumb is to have the cardigan’s neck lower than the dress neckline so I tend to wear V neck cardigans so that a little bit of the dress neckline peeks over the top of the cardigan even if fully buttoned up.
        If I do wear a scoop neck cardigan over a V neck dress, I leave the top few buttons unbuttoned for the same reason (Michelle Obama often does this).
        The problem is if the dress V neckline is too low and you have to wear a cami inside as well. So then – scoop neck cami, V neck dress, scoop neck sweater? :) Three necklines showing can look a bit too much…

    • Shayna

      I can see a scoop neck or crew collared (higher neckline) top with a v-neck cardigan, and if the collar on the cardigan is higher than the v-neck top then that would work too — I think it looks odd though if it’s a deeper scoopneck cardigan over a higher v-neck top

    • Eponine

      I think it looks better if the bottom layer’s neckline is higher than the top layer’s, but other than that, I don’t think the actual shape matters.

      • Shayna

        Yes — I think the big trouble is when the necklines are a different shape (or the same) but at the same point on your neck/chest

  14. housecounsel

    Back to anti-aging . . . I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. Do not waste your money on expensive serums and creams in pretty bottles with gorgeous ads. Take decent care of your skin with drugstore products, and save your money for proven, precription-strength stuff. I started with Retin-A in my early 30s for acne and continue to use it for anti-aging. I started Botox around the eyes in my early 30s too, to prevent crow’s feet.

    I agree with the poster who recommended microderm. I’m a fan.

    • Lucy

      Question about microderm. Since most people seem to get this done at their derm’s office, does insurance cover it? Does your skin need time to recover after (i.e., is this not something I can do on my lunch hour)?

      Also, how does one go about finding a good dermatologist? I am approaching 30, never had skin problems before and have suddenly started breaking out a ton on my chin & have noticed all sorts of creases under my eyes and on my forehead. Having never really had to think about my skin, I am honestly at a loss. And I feel like the sheer number of options in NY as far as doctors go is just so overwhelming I haven’t been able to actually go see one. I tried asking around, but no one I know really has recommendations. Should I just pick a name out of my insurance directory & hope for the best??

      • Anonymous

        Ask your GP for a recommendation. While microdermabrasion isn’t covered by insurance, it is definitely worth the price and can reduce risk of skin cancer. My dermatologist’s staff always offers a dab of foundation that will hide the slight redness after treatment.

          • CJ in CA

            $125? Wow that’s not much more than a regular old facial! Now I’m definitely looking into it!

          • s

            I pay $140 in a well-to-do suburb of Chicago. I started treatments at greater frequency and now go every two months or so (actually–probably closer to three) to maintain. My skin was more sensitive at first, but it was never totally red or anything for more than a few minutes (less sensitivity than I’ve had after washing off a mud mask). I wouldn’t hestitate to do it at lunch now, but I suppose everyone’s reaction might be different. One warning: My aesthetician was on vacation once so I went to Elizabeth Arden instead. I caught impetigo because they didn’t properly sterilize (really nasty bacteria infection that required antibiotics to treat…don’t even get me started on the misery). At any rate, it made me feel like the doc office affiliation is probably worth it even if there are cheaper options elsewhere.

  15. Jill

    Oddball etiquette question: What’s the protocol for saving seats at tables during open seating business events? I’ve been on both ends of this: Someone asks you to save a seat at the table and then steps away, and then others approach and ask if they may join you. It always feels rude to tell people that the seat is taken (particularly when the place setting has not been disturbed, there is no jacket on the chair, etc.). It’s also a little disconcerting to be the person who asks to join the table but is turned away. Anyone know a good protocol here?

    • Lucy

      I always try to put something on the seat, even if it’s my bag/jacket/whatever. Or to get a drink and leave in place.

      As for what to say, just smile and say, “I’m sorry, someone’s already sitting here.” And if you’re the one looking for a seat, don’t assume an empty seat is not taken and just ask if anyone’s sitting there. If the answer’s yes, just say thanks and move on.

      I do think it’s more of a problem to save more than a seat or 2, like when you’re with a large group and people ask you to save the whole table. I think that’s inappropriate — then you need to have a few people stay behind.

  16. KM

    Has anyone every bought suiting at The Limited? I was doing some online suit shopping last night and surfed away from my ususal suspects (J.Crew, BR, AT) to The Limited’s website (mostly looking for tops) and came upon their suiting. It doesn’t look half bad, and a full suit would be half the price of a jacket from any of the above mentioned stores. I noticed that most of the suiting is a polyester blend, but there is one suit in a wool blend (which was a little more expensive). I wouldn’t purchase this as my go to suit, but as a midweek (or month) everything else needs to go to the dry cleaners suit. Any thoughts?

    • KZ

      I have one that’s a polyester blend, and I think it looks perfectly fine. I don’t wear it for anything important, but it works to fill in the wardrobe. One problem is the pants aren’t lined (though the matching skirt is). Their jackets also fit me well.

      • KZ

        Speaking of polyester, can we discuss non-natural fabrics? I always got the impression that non-natural fabrics were a no-no for nice business attire, but lately I’ve noticed that more and more businessy clothes are using non-natural fibers (and things like rayon, which I think inhabits some weird zone in between natural and synthetic) without seeming to be any cheaper than things made of natural fibers. Has quality of synthetics improved, or are attitudes toward synthetic fabric changing, or have clothing manufacturers just gotten cheaper?

        • anon

          I am so much more comfortable in polyester, esp in the summer. I think the snobbiness towards non-natural fibers is unnecessary, you should go with what works for you, just ensuring that it doesn’t look too cheap. Honestly I can rarely tell if someone is wearing polyester or not, esp when fibers are blended together these days, and I really wouldn’t care anyway as long as they look basically put-together and presentable.

          • Shayna

            and the synthetics aren’t itchy! I tried on a pair of wool trousers yesterday and in the three seconds I had them on I was already turning red and dying to scratch my legs!

        • MelD

          In my part of Florida, it is extremely hard to find suits that aren’t made of non-natural fabrics other than cotton unless you’re talking about winter-weight wool suits. Places that might normally carry all-season wool suits don’t carry suits at all here. I am with anon that I am a little more comfortable in polyester suits in summer. There’s just no way I want to be wearing lined wool pants in the dead of summer, unlined is just too itchy, and summer fabrics like linen do tend to get wrinkly looking pretty quickly.

        • A.

          Very honestly, I have figured out that most 100-percent cotton things do not retain shape or color with multiple washings and are not worth the trouble, in most cases. I have some great suits made from wool suiting – and some equally great ones made from manmade fabrics. I have a hard time telling the two apart sometimes. I live in the west and very honestly, there’s no way even “seasonless” wool works here in the summertime. People generally relax their dress quite a bit in the summers just so they don’t end up suffocating themselves with heavy clothes.
          I follow the old fashion advice I got years ago about looking at overall quality, not individual characteristics, of a garment. I have seen cheap wool suits that look terrible and expensive polyester-blend suits that look fantastic. If something is shiny, poorly sewn, ill-fitting and generally cheap-looking, it doesn’t matter if it’s made of wool or not – it’s going to look bad.

        • Anonymous

          I always thought polyester would be yucky but some of my nicest dresses have turned out to be poly-blends, so I now go by the “feel” of the fabric.

    • SUCL 3L

      I personally like The Limited’s suiting – so much so that all of my suits are from there. For me, it’s a mixture of cost (I am a law student) and fit (my experience is that their suits have a slightly more “womenly” fit than some other places). But I also know plenty of attorneys who wear suiting from there also.
      If you take good care of them, they’ll last you a while (I don’t put them in the washer/dryer, but send them to the dry cleaners). If I could afford better, I might go else where – but I’m not a snob about labels (not saying the OP is) and plenty of people have complimented me on my suits from there.

      • KM

        Thanks for the advice ladies. I’m not a polyester snob either, I just know that sometimes the fabric content can be telling of the quality and fit of the suit. I’ve also never seen the suiting in person since the Limited closest to me doesn’t carry a lot of the more classic pieces (only the trendy suiting), which is why I originally posted the question, I wanted some opinions before ordering :-)

        • KM

          Sorry, one more thing about non-natural fabrics. My only issue is that sometimes I feel like my poly-blend pants attract more pet hair (I’ve got a cat and a dog) than my wool blend pants do so I’m constantly worried that I’m covered in fur.

        • Clerky

          I bought a bunch of stuff from the Limited when they had a great sale over Thanksgiving break. I ordered everything online and was really disappointed when I received the items — they were very stiff fabric and obviously looked cheap. Most of them were tops though, not suits, but I did buy one more trendy suit jacket that just looked awful. For the same money, you’re better off buying a suit on sale at Macys and Lord and Taylor – they often have sales on Tahari suits for about $100. Or even look at Marshalls and TJ Maxx.

        • MelD

          The Limited suits don’t fit me (they are very narrow in the shoulders and not the best if you have a bit of a chest) but I had a good friend in law school who wore Limited suits and they looked very good on her. I never looked at it and thought “oh this looks cheap.” A lot of the inexpensive suits I see on sale at Macy’s look much cheaper to me and for those you have to be able to wear the same size up top/bottom.

    • Shayna

      I think the fit of their suiting is similar to Express’s — more junior’s than misses (I know the term ‘misses’ is outdated but that’s the only way I know how to differentiate the cuts here!)

      Also, tend to be very trendy – which is fine, but they’ll only last you a year or two at the most which might lower the cost-saving factor

  17. HL

    Ladies- here is a dilemma I have been grappling with.

    I am in my fourth year of practice in a small (about 30 lawyers) law firm on the West Coast. I do tax and business work. I like tax work (both the controversy and planning side of it), but don’t do it exclusively.

    For the last several years I have been considering doing my LLM in tax. I got admitted to Georgetown, with a small scholarship (about a third of tuition). I have to make a decision really fast on GULC, which means, leave my job, move, and take out student loans, all in the next few months.

    I don’t have children, but I do have a partner who would move with me. But I am terrified on taking on more loans, and facing an uncertain job market after I graduate. I also have consumer debt that I have been gradually working to pay off, which would have to be put on hold while going to school I would probably not come back to my firm after graduating, and would try to stay on the east coast and find a new job.

    There was a thread about the wisdom of getting an LLM last weekend, but I am in a slightly different position in that I have a job that I would have to leave; have work experience; but I love tax law, and would like to get better at what I do.

    So, do I embrace the uncertainty (and loans!), or do I stay with my firm, which I like enough, and get better through experience, etc.?

    • anon

      tough question. I do tax work at a biglaw firm in nyc. I personally would only recommend doing NYU’s tax LLM, not Georgetown, but it’s possible this is a NYC-biased thing (or east coast thing, which could make it more relevant if you’re planning on moving out here).

      could you find a more tax-oriented job at another firm, as another option? you could get your training that way without the loans..

      did you take any tax classes in law school? if no, or just one or two, then I may recommend Georgetown’s program after all, since you really would need the training if you want to get exclusively into tax law. relatedly, how much and how broad of tax training have you gotten at your firm now? what sort of job within tax would you be looking for after completing the LLM?

      NYU has an e-LLM program that you could do while continuing to work at your current firm. Would take longer and may not have the same prestige as a “real” LLM from NYU, but maybe would get you the same information for less cost (actually it’s not that much less, if at all, but at least wouldn’t be all at once and you could keep working).

      don’t know if any of this is helpful, as I don’t really know much about Georgetown’s program specifically — I just know that at my firm and others in the city, there are always several people that came out of the NYU LLM program, but I’ve never seen anyone hired from Georgetown’s. Could be different if you’d be looking for work in DC after your LLM. Look up some DC firms that are heavy in tax (McKee Nelson?) and see if any of the associates have LLMs from Georgetown.

      best of luck.

      • K

        I would ditto looking at NYU over GULC. I am in Boston and the people here that have LLMs are mostly from NYU (although up here some are from BU). If you are planning to be in DC then GULC may be more common though.

      • anon

        I was curious and did a little poking around — it looks like a few of the tax associates at Caplin & Drysdale in DC have GULC LLMs — didn’t see any in Bingham (acquired McKee) — so if you’re planning to stay in DC, then I would say, go for it. If you’re planning to go to NYC/Boston/elsewhere, then apply to NYU.

        • HL

          Thank you for advice! I received a certificate in tax law at my school since I knew I was interested in tax so I had about 6 tax classes while doing my JD (everything from procedure to corporate and partnership, etc.) And thanks for your feedback on GULC v. NYU. I applied to NYU, as well, and am still waiting to hear from them, which, at this point in the application process, probably means that I did not get in.

          I love NYC and would love to end up there; but it is also possible that I will be moving overseas with my partner in the next couple of years, so my goal partly is to position myself to be marketable in a Commonwealth market, where I hope to be able to find a job with a MNC or US law firm without necessarily having to sit for the local bar right away. One of the options I am considering is postponing doing by LLM altogether until I move and then doing a tax LLM in a country where I end up. Tough decisions to be made…

          • anon

            If you move overseas then I’m not sure another US law degree will be much use… at least the positions that I’ve seen advertised seem to want people with degrees in the country they’ll be practicing in. And from what I’ve seen at firms with US tax practices, there’s really no incentive for them to place an associate in an international market, all the US tax work is done in the US. So I guess what I’m saying is don’t even bank on finding a job doing US tax work in a foreign country, and if you can’t then the extra debt from the LLM will just make your life harder.

          • RKS

            If you are seriously thinking about moving overseas, then postpone that LLM. You will do MUCH better doing your tax LLM in the country where you plan on practicing — that way, you’ll be able to combine US knowledge with other-country knowledge. Plus, being in school will buy you time to network, pass the local bar, etc, etc.

            Could you defer Georgetown by a year? Honestly, I’m not sure there’s much value in your leaving your job now when there’s still uncertainty in your future. If you defer, you could spend a year looking for a job in DC so that you could work and go to school, thus saving $$$.

    • Eponine

      If you feel that you have good job security at the moment, I don’t think this a good time to resign. The market’s still slow and I personally wouldn’t leave my job without feeling confident I could get another one in a year. If you could do an LLM at night and continue working, I think that would be a good idea. And waiting a few years and doing it overseas to make yourself more marketable in another country is also probably a good idea.

  18. divaliscious11

    AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WANT TO SHOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Okay, just needed to vent. Can’t, know I can’t and won’t, but doesn’t mean I can’t complain about it!;-)

    • anon

      how about buying just 1 item on sale? BR is having that tax-break 25% off sale…. so you could just pick one thing, anything… would that work?

    • Anonymous

      I feel your pain…truly. I did, however, just spend $50 at TJMaxx yesterday on exercise clothes and told myself that it was a necessary health related expense, not shopping. ;)

    • Christina@StyleofPolitics

      Sometimes I just add things to my shopping cart (online) and then walk away from it. If I still want it the next day, I might buy it, but sometimes that act of picking a color and a size and putting it all together in the cart gets out the urge, and going back, I don’t really want to buy it anymore. It doesn’t always work, but sometimes it does.

      • MM

        I do this, too! I fill up carts at numerous websites, more than I could ever purchase, go through the painful process of culling — only one pink shirt, only one pair of gray pants — and then try to narrow down the purchases to a reasonable number. It takes a few hours. I find that almost always I can’t pick one or two items over the others. Which means I don’t like any of them that much. So then I buy nothing. It’s a good exercise.

          • lala

            Every time I walk away from my online cart, the bastards send me a coupon for 20 or 30% off. This happens without fail, obviously at the sites I’m registered with that “remember” me!!!

            I’ve started doing a “prelim” shop just to get my discount!

      • Shayna

        That’s how I do my grocery shopping (I love Peapod.com) — Takes me about three days to do a grocery order, but keeps me from any of those impulse 1000-calorie-ice-cream type of purchases!

    • Houda

      I really feel your pain. I am about to move to my first apartment which I financed to the last dime. Now I am broke (as in I can’t afford anything other than a buying a bed). But I cannot resist the urge to buy something.
      I have decided to “splurge” on a 20 dollars ballet flats :)

  19. housecounsel

    Thread hijack/vent here . . . are there any other mothers with big jobs whose husbands also have big jobs — but the husbands manage to find huge stretches of time to play golf every weekend, and the mom (i.e. me) never gets a moment to, say, get a pedicure?

    That is all.

    • K

      @Housecounsel — you described my situation perfectly…. most times I want to scream at him “it’s parenting, not baby sitting!!!” I don’t know what the answer is, but I feel your pain.

    • anonymous

      I’m curious, why is it that you don’t have time to get a pedicure — is it due to housework, or looking after the kids, or work, or sleep, or something else? If it’s looking after the kids, then just tell him that you’re going off to get a pedicure on this day at this time, and he needs to take the kids then. If it’s housework, then lower your standards or get a cleaning person every once in awhile. If it’s work, then maybe you need to be firmer with setting limits with your employer, or more efficient during the week.

      I’m not saying you haven’t already tried these things or thought of this, I’m just trying to figure out exactly what the roadblock is here… and please don’t interpret any of this as meant to be insulting, it’s not.

    • E

      If my husband did that, I would hurt him.

      Thanks for making me feel good about being divorced!

    • AH

      I might be opening a can of worms for quoting Linda Hirshman, but the key is to “never know when you’re out of milk.”

    • A.

      It’s not at all uncommon, and the only cure for it is standing up to him. As anonymous said, pick a day and time, make an appointment, and tell him a day or so in advance, “I am going for a pedicure at this time tomorrow.” If he protests that he has already made plans, shrug and say “I guess you’ll need to figure something out.” Walk away. End of conversation. Do not feel bad about doing it, because essentially that’s what he’s been doing to you. I guarantee you that if you walk out the door, he will not leave the kids alone. He may not like it, but he will step up, when he is forced to.

      My aunt nearly divorced her husband over this issue – he was playing on multiple softball leagues and was rarely around in the evenings or the weekends, leaving her essentially a single parent – and one day she came in, announced she would be spending the weekend with her girlfriends, and left. When she came back, the house was still standing, the kids had been fed, and her husband was mad, but finally got it. They went into counseling and managed to work it out. I can say both from personal and friends’ experiences that this issue will kill a marriage over time. I think it’s better to address it before you get even more pissed off (which you have every right to be). Good luck.

    • Shayna

      I don’t have children – however as the adult daughter of two full time professionals (and one of three children), I can tell you that my mother has long said, “women have only come so far – we used to just be stuck at home. Now we’re stuck at the office AND at home” – as in we’ve taken on more responsiblity but our husbands have not…

      She was definitely the parent-in-charge but when my father said he was “babysitting” us – his kids – that was the end. She started having a babysitter come on a weekly basis so she could spend a night out with a friend, or go to have her nails done — You need to have time to yourself, which for most women I think, requires a conscious decision to make yourself a priority (much harder for moms than for dads who assume that mom has it covered!)

    • divaliscious11

      Schedule yourself in your calendar!!! Schedule a coffee with yourself. Maybe do a family calendar and upload blocked time into each other’s calendar so you both know when you can schedule biz development/networking events.

    • RR

      Do you tell him you want time for you? My guess is, like most working moms, you don’t. He is doing a great job of making time for him – which is necessary and healthy. I’m assuming he’s not really the problem. YOU need to make time for YOU. Tell him that once a month, you are going to have an afternoon for you – go to a movie by yourself, go to the spa, go shopping, whatever helps you decompress. And then go. Don’t feel guilty. Don’t change your mind. Don’t make excuses for why it’s not a good day. Happy moms = happy families.

  20. Another Anon

    @K

    My thoughts examctly. If they’re your own children it’s not babysitting. It’s parenting.

    @OP

    Don’t laugh — maybe ask Mr. Housecounsel how he finds the time to golf etc. with so much to do. He may have ideas?

    Maybe?

    Well, it was a thought…

  21. housecounsel

    Thanks, guys. I work four days per week and have a nanny those four days. I try not to have my nanny come on the day I’m home – mommy guilt gets to me if I’m not hands-on with the little one the whole day — and maybe that’s my problem. I also feel guilty if I stop on the way home from work for a pedicure.

    We also have a cleaning person once a week, so it isn’t housework.

    We have three kids, and weekends and ALL weekday evenings are full of driving them around to practices, games, birthday parties, etc. The three are widely spaced in age, which complicates things.

    As I type this, I am realizing that much of the problem is my own mommy guilt issues. I feel guilty if I go out on a Sunday afternoon when Mr. Housecounsel gets home from golf, if I’m not home early enough to make an elaborate Sunday night family dinner.

    Things will get better next year, when the little one starts preschool, and I will have a bit of alone time during which I do not feel guilty for not being with Baby Housecounsel.

    • Seventh Sister

      I find two things helpful – (1) actually making the appointment, *then* informing my husband that he is in charge of the toddler on that day at that time and (2) asking for a spa gift certificate for a holiday, Mother’s Day, etc. If he actually purchases it, suddenly he’s more interested in making sure I use it.

      The other thing I try to do is remember that I don’t have to have a great reason to bail on something. Must I go to every all-class playdate and birthday party? Nope. It’s hard though, since I was the real unpopular kid in school and remember never getting invited to a lot of other kid’s parties.

      The other thing I try to remind myself is that getting some time to relax makes me a better employee and a better mom.

    • meg

      My favorite boss told me (when I was expressing concern about how to be a working mom and still give my kids everything they need) to remember it’s about quality time, not quantity. And if 45 minutes of getting a pedicure would allow you to give your kids better quality time, then it’s actually in the name of good parenting.

      Good luck. it’s always easier to write it than it is in practice (I say this looking at my woefully shabby toenails which I have intended to get done each of the last 3 weekends…)

    • CJ in CA

      I don’t have kids, so I have no real advice, but you reminded me of this: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/05/surprisingly-family-time-has-grown/

      Basically, parents today spend more time with their kids than 20 years ago. I was a kid 20 years ago, and I didn’t feel deprived. Also, when kids were asked what their one wish for their parents would be it wasn’t more time, it was that their parents would be less stressed and tired. Sounds like, statistically, your kid WANTS you to get a pedicure!

    • anon

      You must lose the guilt. It’s hard, believe me, I know, but it does no one a favor for you to lose yourself in all of this. Your kids sound very lucky. They will be even more so with a more relaxed mother (with cute toes) who knows she’s doing this right.

    • A.

      Dude, you have three kids and a full-time job. Cut yourself some slack! No one is going to end up in juvenile hall if you make Sunday Pizza Night instead of kill-myself-making-a-fancy-dinner night. Women today guilt themselves for not doing things Superman couldn’t do. Let some of it go. You are not a bad mom if you have the nanny come for a couple of hours (or trade kids with another mom) on your day off so you can run errands, get a pedicure, and have some sanity time for yourself. And you are also not a bad mom for occasionally saying “this weekend is a family-togetherness weekend, meaning we are not going to any birthday parties, golf dates, games we do not absolutely have to go to, or other obligations that are not really necessary.” And give EVERYONE a break from the rat race. No one is going to collapse if they miss one event. I totally understand where you’re coming from – it is really easy to get so caught up in everyone’s stuff that you end up running yourself ragged. But it is not worth it, and if you do not take care of yourself, you cannot take care of anyone else. One of my friends was recently hospitalized with a gallbladder attack and confessed to me she didn’t want to leave the hospital because it was the first “break” she’d had in years. Do you want to end up at that place? It’s not very fun. Ease up on yourself and don’t take crap from your husband or your kids. You are the glue that’s holding everything together, and you set the tone. They will follow your lead – not uncomplainingly, but they will. Good luck, and hang in there. :)

      • DJ

        I’m not a mom but I’m recently married and I just have to say, I love this blog. So much practical advice and real discussion about issues we face. It’s so refreshing.

        (not the same DJ as above :o)

      • Legally Brunette

        No one is going to end up in juvenile hall if you make Sunday Pizza Night instead of kill-myself-making-a-fancy-dinner night.

        Thanks for making me laugh out loud! Great comment.

    • AN

      I have a nanny too at home 5 days. I too feel guilty getting the mani-pedi after work or on weekends when it’s our son & us. So I run these errands at lunch – today, I got a pedi and grabbed a sandwich to eat at my desk. While 3 is a bigger challenge than 1, I’ve told myself to STOP feeling guilty.

      I work out when my son is being fed his breakfast by the nanny. I used to feel bad about that, but then I am ‘on call’ from the time he wakes to the time he goes to bed including during the night when he gets up/cries, so I figure 30 mins daily won’t hurt any of us!

      That said, my husband is more than willing to ‘parent’ my boy, it’s just that the young man is like cling-film right now with me:)

      STOP feeling guilty and just tell Dad what you have to do, and when. Let him figure it out.

    • Taylor

      Something has to give! My husband works at home and he is there for my son when he gets home from school. I can honestly say that my husband never “helped” with the baby; rather, he took care of his child. We don’t overschedule with sports and parties. If my husband got a full time job, I would see if I could cut back to half-time. We need a new couch among other things but they are not as important to me as great weekends with my family.

  22. CFM

    Don’t know if anyone will see this, but its 30% Ann Taylor and Loft with the code Friends starting tuesday!

  23. Victoria

    Does anyone have thoughts on the appropriateness of shift dresses with cropped matching jackets for a corporate environment? Am thinking of purchasing one I recently saw on sale but am worried that the cropped jacket does not look professional enough. Thoughts? Thanks! :)

    • Ms B

      It depends upon the level of crop. Waist length? Not a problem. One of my favorite dresses for work is a russet boucle sheath from Ann Taylor from a few seasons back that has a collared waist length jacket and I get a lot of compliments on it. However, I would not wear a sheath dress with a mid-torso or shrug kind of jacket with it to the office. That’s a little too “party” for my taste.

      My favorite sheath look for office is the sheath with a tailored duster jacket (maybe with bracelet length sleeves). Hides a multitude of figure flaws!

  24. housecounsel

    Thanks to all who posted encouraging advice for alleviating mommy guilt and preserving marital harmony. It’s nice to hear I’m not a rotten mother if I want pretty toenails. I do know martyr-type mothers and really, really don’t want to be one. They’re horrifically annoying.

    To those of you who are young and don’t have kids yet, don’t be discouraged. I absolutely love my working-mom life most of the time, and I am the daughter of a career mom – and I still talk to her!

    • AN

      You sound like a great mum. Just remember before you became a mum, you were YOU. With nice toenails:)

    • MMS

      Housecounsel,
      I’m a full time working momma of four (teens to toddlers) and hubby works full time too. I just wanted to offer some support – and encourage you to stop feeling guilty about taking care of yourself! You are teaching your kids a valuable lesson – that mommas are people too, who need to take care of themselves.

    • RKS

      Housecounsel, I’m late on this … but am in a really similar situation to you. 3 kids, 4 day a week schedule (one day alternating telecommute or off). It’s easier to type than do, but you MUST find time for yourself or else.

    • T

      The guilt is corrosive–you’re right to set it aside. I was in the same place with my first baby, but we managed to get it straight after about a year. We’re in a great place now with 2 small ones and 2 challenging jobs. It can work.
      But really, you can set the boundaries with your husband in a more productive way than springing a schedule ambush on him. Ask For It by Linda Babcock was a helpful book for me for defining, and then obtaining, what I needed. Good luck!

  25. 45

    I may be too late for this weeks open thread, so maybe will post again next week. Just wondering, do any of you out there own two homes (non-rental)? Without reference to the financial side of thinks, how is this psychologically? Do you use them both? Do you find it to be more of a burden or benefit?

  26. Bymnsonymaiva

    Hi I am currently out of work in Riverside,CA. I have searched all the job boards more times than I’d care to recall and sent off hundreds of resumes. However, i have not been able to find a single good response to my applications. If anyone knows about particular job site where i can look for a good job, please revert me with the location details. I will be thankful to you for your early response.

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