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Our weekend recommendation for this week is this great shoe — we've been wearing last season's iteration nonstop. The metallic gray goes with everything, from black to navy, and we can walk for miles in the shoe (literally), which is great when we want to take a leisurely stroll. We've been wearing them as commuting shoes during the week (a step up from our flip flops), and as walking shoes on the weekend. They're available at Zappos in gray metallic (pictured), black, champagne, chocolate, and red for $90; the tan is on sale at Piperlime for $60. Indigo by Clarks – Smooch (Grey Metallic Leather) – Footwear
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Becca
So question? Out of my many interviews this week I got one on-the-spot offer (and several more to hear from next week). I actually really like the company that I was offered a job at. My only issue is that I initially applied for a summer internship (hey, I’m looking for a full time job but at this point, I’ll take what I can get), and they were very interested in the possibility that I would be there longer than the summer. They basically verbally committed that if things went well, hiring me full time at the end of the summer wouldn’t be an issue at all – it’s what they want in fact. It’s a small office, I was around for 3 or 4 hours and so I do believe them.
BUT a) there is no guarantee, I know this, b) they want me to start in a couple weeks so want an answer by mid next week – scary! And I won’t have heard from the other jobs I applied to by then and c) the internship pay kind of sucks (2K a month, less than I was making at previous internships) — the internship pay scale is fixed, and they assured me that would be something they could fix in September and give me more of a “living wage”.
Here’s my issue – it’s certainly less than I expected to be making (I figured I’d end up with 30K on the low end, 45 on the really high, since that’s what friends in similar entry level positions in my industry are getting in a city) and because I’ll be an intern, I won’t get health benefits, etc, so I’ll be paying out COBRA, at least for the summer, plus rent in a city, plus food, plus incidentals — it feels like it will be tight, maybe too tight. I think I have a *little* room to negotiate – I said I wanted to accept the offer then and there (I love the company, the work seems good, and it seems like a really good fit for me) but I needed to go home and crunch the numbers. They said if it was a problem to talk to them, not to just assume that it’s not solvable and say no to the offer. I have no idea how to go about a salary negotiation though… and they want to hear what I want before I hear from anything else since the guy that hired me is going out of the country for a couple weeks and wants to settle this before he leaves.
What do I do?! Being a new grad is frightening, I’ve decided.
Eponine
You may not be able to negotiate intern pay if it is, in fact, fixed, but you should try anyway. If they’re willing to negotiate, ask for twice as much more as you expect to get (i.e. if you want $2200/mo, ask for $2400) because they’ll cut it down. And if pay is fixed, then you should be able to negotiate on benefits. I’d particularly ask for a health insurance stipend. (By the way, if you’re graduating, you may be able to buy low-cost, high-deductible coverage from your alumni association to cover you for a few months. Most alumni associations have something like this.)
I would definitely try to get a firm statement that they’ll hire you in September. If there are conditions you’ll have to meet to get hired, try to get these in writing.
Finally, if you do accept the internship, you should keep looking for full-time employment until they have officially offered you the full-time position. If you get a job offer from another company but you like your internship, use that job offer as leverage to get the internship company to offer you a full-time job.
lawDJ
Yes, leverage. It’s all about leverage.
Shayna
Small companies usually don’t have fixed amounts… honestly, they’re usually flying by the seat of their pants when they make decisions like intern salary.
Negotiate gently – no ulimatums, and see if you can get firmer commitment to a position post summer.
RR
My husband’s office just hired a co-op. They offered her $12 an hour. She countered with $14 and got it. Ask for what you want. They may say no, but it doesn’t sound like they will rescind the offer.
Lucy
You may also want to contact the other employers you interviewed with early next week and let them know that you have an offer and would like to know if they are seriously interested. 1) no point in declining this if something else isn’t going to come through and 2) you may get something better offered as a result of the competition.
Kaye
Definitely tell the other companies you have a competing offer with a deadline.
And, I don’t see why a guy who hired you going out of the country should be a reason for you to have to accept so quickly – we have email and cheap international calls these days! You can try to negotiate the deadline. Getting more job offers before having to commit would be a huge advantage since that’s salary data that you can directly use to negotiate for a higher salary at the place you want to work.
Anonymous
Echo the “negotiate, negotiate” theme above viz deadline & money & terms of continued employment . Also, check out: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/15/your-money/15money.html?scp=3&sq=raise&st=cse . It’s not entirely on point but covers areas potentially of use.
Women are famously poor at advocating for their own interests when it comes to money. Within reason (and without knowing all your particulars), I would say figure out your walk-away number & then be sure to add real room on top (not sure if it should be a full double, but I do believe you need to ask to receive) for negotiating wiggle-room.
Good luck.
MJ
Here’s some other tips:
* We learned in b-school NEVER to offer a range (such as $2200-$2400) because the other side will automatically anchor on the low end. Pick a number (higher than what you would settle for, as they will want to shave some off), and offer that.
* Depending on how badly you need the job, don’t think of your financial needs, think also about how much you are worth (on the open market). Your budget is important, but also remember that you shouldn’t pin yourself to making, say $300 above your break-even. That’s not completely relevant. Speak to the skills you bring to the table and base your negotiations on that, not your personal circumstance.
* Second the suggestion that there should be some metrics or a guarantee in writing that you will revisit your temp/intern status on a fixed date. Many employers WILL string you along because they can. Also second that you need to keep looking while you are there for a permanent job. You just never know. And second that you should keep your other potential employers in the loop about an “exploding offer” situation. It makes you seem deisirable.
* There are excellent negotiations guides (as well as tons of other stuff) at http://www.Rileyguide.com/offers.html, which is now owned by the WSJ, but still retains its old-school formatting. It’s an AMAZING resource
Good luck.
Shayna
Rileyguide.com is terrific! Even if you aren’t currently job hunting, take a look so you have some techniques in the bck of your head when promotions/raises come around.
A.
Contrary to what a lot of people believe, the first number you hear in regards to salary is their opening offer in the negotiation, not their final word. A lot of women don’t even try to negotiate salary and we all should – very, very few men I know ever accept the first salary number they hear. I totally agree with trying to leverage another offer in your negotiations with them, if possible. If this is really where you want to work – and you can live with a lower salary – then at least use what you can to your advantage and get the best deal for yourself. And DEFINITELY get the permanent-offer thing in writing.
Becca
I actually do instinctually trust this guy (small company, the CEO hired me) and my gut is pretty good. But good advice about the getting it in writing – I just don’t know how to go about asking for it.
I guess my real question is if I say: No I’m sorry, I will need at least 2600/mo (I got 2400/mo at both my previous internships, both less profitable companies, and both in more rural location) and expect that that could reasonably go down to ~2400 they won’t use that as justification to be like, hmm, well, we’ve got this other candidate that will work for 2k, we’ll just hire them, good bye?
That’s my real worry. The other thing is that I *like* this firm – I like the people, I like the work, I would like the job – probably more than anything else I’ve interviewed for. So I am wary about accidentally saying something that causes them to rescind I guess?
Anon
2 comments:
First, re: your worry about offending them by asking for money: They have already opened the door by telling you to let them know if that won’t work after you’ve had a chance to “crunch the numbers” so you won’t be offending anyone. As another poster already mentioned, you should negotiate EVERY first offer. Due to the fact that they’ve implied that they can add to the offer, I think it would actually look bad NOT to ask for more at this point.
Second, re: the “potential” full time offer in the fall: I have been burned big time by this kind of promise–we’ll up your pay, we’ll give you a promotion, etc, after your six months review. The way to do it is to come up with some kind of metric that is as objective as possible, and get a guarantee from them now as to what salary they will bump you to if you meet those metrics in your september review (or a range for the position, but understand you will get the bottom of the range–why? b/c they can). That way you are in a better position to push for the full time offer when the time comes. They may still screw you over though, so please do keep looking for other full time employment, just in case. It’s all about your negotiating position.
A.
It’s all in the approach. If it was me, I would say this:
“I am really excited about working with you – this is a great opportunity for me. I understand you’re not in a position to offer me full-time employment right now, and we have talked about the position converting to a full-time, permanent position in the fall. I think it would be helpful if we could outline what the goals and expectations are for my current position, and then as part of that, create a transition plan – with a timeline (THIS IS CRITICAL) – so that everyone can ‘be on the same page’ (ugh – cliches – I hate them but they can be useful) about how the transition will happen when the time comes. I would be happy to draft something for you to review if you’d like.”
Notice – there’s no ultimatum here, and there’s also no hesitancy or doubt about what’s going to happen. You’re talking from the position of, you WILL be hired as a full-time employee in the fall – there’s no “if.” You want to create a goals document – very similar to what people do in a performance management process – that happens to include a transition plan. They are not actively making a commitment, but you will then have a document that you can pull out in, say, September, if no offer has been forthcoming, and say “remember this? I’d like to review how I’m performing related to the goals and expectations outlined here. Oh, and let’s review the transition plan for converting my internship to full-time, regular employment.”
This won’t hold up in court as an enforceable contractual offer, but it will be useful in holding management’s feet to the fire if they start dragging said feet at the end of the internship. If, when you ask for a review of the plan, they tap-dance, dissemble, evade or otherwise try to avoid the subject, you know – you should probably start looking for a new job. Believe me, it is better to have ANYTHING you can get in writing about being hired as a regular employee than to have nothing. I have a friend who “temped” for someone for four years and every time she tried to bring up the (multiple) informal offers of regular employment with the business owner in a formal way, it was brushed off. You’re much harder to brush off when you have something in your hand, signed by your manager, that says “X is going to happen.” Even if it won’t hold up in court, when it’s in writing bosses do get nervous about potential lawsuits.
Eponine
“I guess my real question is if I say: No I’m sorry, I will need at least 2600/mo (I got 2400/mo at both my previous internships, both less profitable companies, and both in more rural location) and expect that that could reasonably go down to ~2400 they won’t use that as justification to be like, hmm, well, we’ve got this other candidate that will work for 2k, we’ll just hire them, good bye?”
They’ve already offered you the job. They won’t renege. They may not agree to raise the salary, and they they may insist that you respond to the offer by a certain date, but they’re not going to hire someone else unless you’ve said no to the offer.
Having said that, in salary negotiations, you need to focus on what you’re worth to the company, not what you need to make ends meet. I think it’s reasonable to expect them to match your previous pay, since the companies you worked for before were similar. I also think that, if they can’t or won’t raise the internship salary but you still really like the place and would want to work there permanently, you should cut back on expenses for the summer and make ends meet on what they’ll pay you so that at the end of the summer you’ll have the job you really want. Three months of a tight budget beats years of drudgery at a job you don’t like that much.
ChickintheStix
You’d negotiate better terms for a client, right? Think of the message you send when you negotiate salary for yourself. Negotiation is a career-long practice. Don’t be scared of “no.” Or, at least, don’t show that you’re scared of “no.” Good luck!
Susan Bjorklund
This is a non-binding commitment. I would commit to the internship and commit to continuing the job search. I was in a similar position once, and it lead to 1. undercutting pay, 2. no full time job, 3. the employer using me for essentially reduced cost labor (i.e. no paying benefits), 4. loss of other positions.
It’s to the employer’s benefit to make this promise to “consider” the future and more permanent employment, and to your loss. Take their illusory promise for now and keep looking too!
:)
jojo
Negotiate, and then jump on the best they’ll offer. If something else comes through, you can take it. You’re not indentured to the employer just because you accept an offer.
Bets
LOL! I totally posted last week, asking what people thought of the tan version of this shoe! Glad to hear that they get a good review from Corporette!
lawDJ
Agree with @jojo. Negotiate now, and negotiate later if you get a better offer after you’ve been there a little while (use it to get the full time offer). How to negotiate: use market information about what your friends are making as the “industry standard” and request that they get closer to meeting that; ask for perks that might not cost them money (if they can’t give you health insurance, perhaps they can give you access to a Flexible Spending Account so you can pay for health insurance through that pre-tax at substantial savings); skim the book “Getting to Yes” (it’s actually a quick read). It’s a great first tool in the negotiation game.
Kaye
Getting to Yes is a great book, second the suggestion. It has made me much more comfortable negotiating.
RR
Reporting back on silk blouses from Talbots. They were lovely. The off-white shell with pinkish flowers was just beautiful. Beautiful fabric, beautiful pattern, beautiful pleating at neckline. I ordered my regular size and it is a little flowy, but that’s what I wanted. If you are looking for more fitted, I’d recommend a size down. The blue flowered silk short-sleeve shirt was a little different than I expected. The print and color were gorgeous, but the fabric is a thin, see-through silk. I was expecting a thicker silk like the shell. It comes with a removable silk cami, but the cami doesn’t go to the bottom of the shirt and that is obvious because it’s see-through. So I think I’d have to tuck, which is fine, but I need to consider whether I want to keep it to wear like that.
I was extremely disappointed with the suiting I bought. It was various pieces in their seasonless stretch wool line. I’ve bought Talbots suiting for a decade, and it’s always wonderful quality. Lined, good seams, beautiful fabric, and (for me) wonderful fit. Well, not so anymore apparently. One of the jackets was 3/4 length sleeve, which I didn’t realize (they have all the models push up suit sleeves so I occasionally don’t notice the stupid 3/4 sleeves they put on everything). I don’t hate a 3/4 length sleeve, but I’m looking for a classic brown suit for court. Another jacket has these slightly weird pleats running down the front over pockets. It’s not unattractive, and the suit jacket actually looks great on me, but again – just looking for a classic gray suit.
The thing that really got me is that the pants are unlined. Let me repeat that. The wool (like 98% wool) pants are UNLINED. And itchy. Seriously, for something like $130 bucks full price you can’t line a pair of pants? It never even occurred to me (having bought at least 2 dozen suits from Talbots over the years) that they would sell unlined wool suit pants. Again, they look nice, so I’m debating. Has anyone ever had a tailor add lining? Wondering if it’s worth it…
I’m so sad. Talbots is my go-to. In recent months, I’ve started noticing quality issues (seams that come unsewn after one wearing, no lining, buttons poorly attached, increasing fit anomalies). I’d hoped it was just a couple random things, but apparently Talbots is falling prey to the increasing trend of lowering quality. :(
jcb
Thanks for the report! I’ve had a tailor replace pants lining before in serious rip situations – it is not cheap. I think the charge was $70-80? Cheaper than buying a new pair of pants, but probably not worth it if you are already buying a new pair of pants.
RR
That’s what I was afraid of. So I guess I have to decide if I can deal with them unlined or take them back. Bummer.
eem
I suppose you could just wear hose or tights under the pants…but that might get hot or cause some unflattering clinging. Personally, I would be so annoyed that they weren’t lined that I would just return them.
MM
My tailor told me it is rarely worth it to replace lining and basically refused to do it on my Ann Taylor pants, telling me they were not worth the cost.
Shayna
The tailor I just had hem some pants/take in a skirt told me the same thing.
Ms B
On wool pants, I have been pretty happy with having a “crotch liner” added that basically covers the inseam area in the crotch of the pants to avoid those bad bad wrinkles that can rack up during the day and keep the pants a lot (ahem) fresher than they might otherwise be if you are perspiring. The crotch liner allows me to get 3-5 wears out of wool pants that I might otherwise have to have dry cleaned after only 1-2 wears. My seamstress charges about $20 to put the liner in.
BTW, I could not agree with you more on the 3/4 sleeve issue. Talbots seems to have gone whole hog for the bracelet length sleeve and appears to have forgetten that some us need classic suits with sleeves that go to the wrist (not to mention that not everyone wants to wear pastels and brights, but that is a separate problem). Having a few jackets with that sleeve length is fine, but court requires full length sleeves for formal situations. I can get away with the bracelet length sleeves if I am going to a chambers conference, appearing at a bulk or call docket in state court, or going to bankruptcy or unemployment hearings, but federal court, contested matters, and juries require full length sleeves. Besides, I am convinced that in a few years the 3/4 length sleeve will fall out of favor again and I do not want to end up with a closet full of jackets that look dated.
mbs
I looked at those suits in the store, and was so disappointed in the unlined wool pants! In the past, Talbots suit pants have always been lined. Hate unlined wool! I normally love Talbots, but definitely disappointed in recent quality of some of the items I’ve purchased. You just can’t count on everything from them being good quality anymore, although they still have the same high prices on everything. We don’t have a Nordstroms, Saks or Bloomingdales in my city, I kind of counted on Talbots for basic suits.
Eponine
I’m not sure which suit you bought, but summer weight wool is supposed to be unlined. That’s how it breathes – a lining would make it uncomfortable in hot weather. If it’s itchy and wool doesn’t normally make you itch, washing it (carefully) in a delicate fabric wash should help.
Rachel
It’s “seasonless” wool. It’s on sale now, but was part of their spring collection. Still, that’s a point worth considering. Maybe it’s not just to cheap out? I’m afraid to try to wash it, but I guess with no lining it should be hand washable?
Eponine
I’m a handwashing fiend – I hate drycleaning. I handwash my wool items with Woolite. Put a small amount of the detergent in cool water and soak the pants about 30 minutes, and agitate them very gently for a minute or so (although really if you’ve never worn them agitation probably isn’t necessary as there’s no dirt to get out). Pat them dry on a flat surface between a couple of towels. I then hang them upside down, folding them on the crease.
I just looked at the pants on the Talbots site. They shouldn’t shrink but they could feel a bit tighter after washing, and should stretch out after you put them on since they have Lycra/Spandex. However they might not look nice and crisp after washing. Also, I noticed they have nylon – nylon can be really itchy. I assume it’s only like 1% or less nylon? If so that’s probably not the cause of the itchiness. I find that new wool itches and is a bit stiff, and the chemicals used in dry cleaning also make me itch, which is why I started handwashing my wool.
Of course the downside is that once you’ve handwashed them you can’t return them, so caveat emptor :). They also make pants liners you could buy if you really like the pants but can’t stand that they’re unlined – I’ve seen them for under $20 at Filene’s. They might make you too hot in the summer, though.
Shayna
I love handwashing (b/c I never remember to take anything to the dry cleaners) but if it itches when you buy them, don’t assume washing them will fix it. If may not, if it doesn’t you will have just wasted money on clothing you cannot wear.
mbs
That has not been my experience with unlined wool pants, but I guess it works for others. I have bought them in the past, never will again. Not only are they itchy, they stretch and don’t hang well.
L
Yes, I’m surprised by this–I have lots of unlined wool pants for warmer weather and as a general rule don’t wear lined pants in the spring/summer. I think the light-weight wool pants I do have would actually drape funny if lined (the wool is very fine) and I’ve never been itchy wearing them.
Anonymous
Try LL Bean’s silk long underwear. I wear them under my unlined wool pants. They are thin, breathable and much more comfortable than pantyhose.
RR
That’s a good idea. Thanks. I think I am keeping one of the suits and returning the other two. Still on the hunt for a classic brown suit.
jojo
What do you ladies think about the classic Brooks Brothers navy blazer? I’ve been eying them for the better part of 10 years and always thought it would be a nice thing to keep in the office. Now that I have the disposable income, I’m having second thoughts. I can’t decide whether it’s too old for me (I’m early 30s) or it reminds me too much of the uniform that all the boys wore to bar mitzvahs back in the day (khaki pants, navy blazer).
http://tiny.cc/fosy8
RR
I think it’s beautiful, but I cannot for the life of me figure out how to style a navy blazer (as opposed to a whole navy suit) in a way that doesn’t look like a uniform (or a young boy as you described). I want to be able to, but I can’t.
s in Chicago
I think it’s a little dowdy. I wouldn’t like it regardless of price point.
(I’m 36, for what’s worth.)
jcb
Agree with RR. Very pretty jacket; wouldn’t know what to do with it. With khaki, you’d feel like a schoolboy, with white, you’d feel like a sailor. Maybe you could buy it, try it on with some things at home and see if it works? Then return if not. And, let us know either way. :)
lawDJ
I too have been eyeing the BB blazer forever (and the Ralph Lauren version). I would wear it with khakis/white pants/white pencil skirt and scarf or large/statement necklace. Scarf or statement necklace (I’d say in red, pink, or white) is key to not looking like a young boy.
I’d also wear it with a light-colored dress that might be too young or feminine for the office on its own, but the jacket (and wearing plain shoes like pumps) would give it a more serious/formal look. Simple or no necklace and no scarf in that scenario.
lawDJ
Here’s a post about wearing a similar jacket and traveling:
http://jauntsetter.com/blog/hot-to-cold-what-to-wear-when-escaping-winter
Bonnie
It looks too much like a uniform.
MelD
I think it would look less like a uniform if you switched the buttons out. The navy/gold just screams flight attendant or Navy to me, but I think that some other type of button would make it look more like a versatile blazer.
A.
Agreed. I have no idea why manufacturers keep putting gold buttons on navy blazers – it screams either Love Boat captain’s uniform, or preppy-jerk yachting attire. Changing buttons is easy – just make sure you pick the right size for the buttonholes, in case you ever do have to button the jacket.
Shayna
Ralph Lauren blazers are the worst… I think they actively fixate on the sailor-at-prep-school look!
Chicago K
the gold buttons screamed flight attendant to me too. But despite this, I do like the jacket. The fit looks great.
I would probably style it with jeans (i love navy blazers with jeans) or over a dress with a colorful print. Depending on your coloring, shades of pink look particularly great with navy.
Reader P
I need a knee-length or just-below-the-knee-length skirt in black, gray, brown or other neutral. It should be a-line (or have a slight flare) and be lined. Cotton, silk, or linen preferred. I am an hour-glassy 4 or 6.
Can’t find a darn thing and thought I might reach out here.
tr
corporette featured the calvin klein A-line gored skirt for $69 in gray/black a few weeks back. It is lined. I have it in gray. I am tall, so I sized up to an 8 (I usually wear 6). It is very modest & hits at the knee.
Eva
Here it is: https://corporette.com/2010/04/29/thursdays-tps-report-calvin-klein-gored-skirt/
Shayna
How about this one:
‘Women’s Jones New York Stretch A-Line Skirt’ by Jones New York http://amzn.to/8ZTYIF – on sale for $69.97.
I love Jones New York — (From one hour-glass-tic 4-to-6 to another :-) ).
Anonymous
I love this skirt, and it is on sale!
http://www1.talbots.com/online/browse/product_details.jsp?id=prdi24011&rootCategory=cat90030&catId=cat80016&sortKey=Default§ion=Sale&conceptIdUnderSale=cat90030
Pencil skirt fan
We have the exact same shape and measurements. I have a black gored skirt from JCPenney that I bought for $20 or so. It’s not perfect, but I got it tailored for an extra $10 and it looks good. It’s very similar to the Calvin Klein skirt posted below and is lined.
Are you sure you want an a-line skirt? I always thought a-lines looked best on me, but I recently discovered pencil skirts and don’t think I will ever go back! I love pencil skirts from Nordstrom (the CE brand). I’m kind of obsessed with them and I think they are incredibly flattering on hourglass or even pear shapes. I think a-line skirts can look very dowdy if it’s not exactly the right shape.
Reader P.
Thank you, all! I really like that Talbot’s skirt.
Pencil Skirt Fan, I love pencil skirts too and have two, but I need a modest (below the knee) skirt for some international travel to a hot and relatively conservative place. I think – and please correct me if I am wrong, corporettes – that the A-line may be cooler as well as less form-fitting and thus be better for location which I am going.
Shayna
The A line is going to be easier to do things like sit down on a picnic bench (I’m back from a week of travelling for work, so I can vouch to the narrow confines of the pencil skirt), but if you’re somewhere more conservative, I’m not sure that the openness of the A line will be a mistake. You may want to do some research into what is/not acceptable in those countries.
EM
Do they make tanks or shells with snaps or buttons on the inside neckline so that you can add different lace or ribbon trim to peek out from the suit jacket? Or have I been reading too much Jane Austen (called a “lace tuck”)?
Anon
Presumably if you are wearing a suit, the level of formality is such that you don’t want lace peeking out, period.
MM
I would seriously consider looking on Etsy for this or putting in a special request (on their Alchemy page). I’ve never seen it, but the vendors on there could totally do it for you. And you’d have control over the quality of the tank and the style of “tucks.” That said, I do also question whether this would be formal enough for work, but I like the idea of having some play with my weekend/evening clothes this way.
Shayna
Most women wear shells so that they have a washable layer between them and the suit — something like that doesn’t sound very washable-friendly.
New Summer Associate
My first day as a summer associate at a large firm is Monday — any last minute tips?
anon
Don’t wear a blue silk shirt on your first day. I did, and the obvious nervous sweating was horrendous. Horrendous!
SF Bay Associate
Put your cell phone on silent without vibration and leave it that way.
MJ
Yes – relax. You won’t do much besides get fed and get trained on the computer and/or phone systems and fill out employment forms. Don’t be afraid of the other lawyers – they hired you and are hoping you will do well.
Cat
Clothing: Suit, but pick your most comfortable suit-appropriate shoes. Day 1 probably will involve a tour of the office and, if you’re in a city, a possible walk to lunch with your mentor. Wear a layer under your jacket that is fine on its own — so you can take it off when you’re trapped in one of those tech/phone training rooms setting up your signature block and learning how, exactly, The Firm wants you to open Word.
You probably won’t get anything substantive to do for a few days, so just be ready to meet people, remember names, and generally look competent.
Finally, remember your random documentation — SS card/passport, voided check for direct deposit, etc.
Emily I
Make an effort to remember the names of people you are introduced to, especially those you’ll see often. Try to repeat their names right away. For example, Person doing the introductions: “This is Jen Smith, my secretary.” You: “Hello, Jen. It’s very nice to meet you.”
I had moments of panic in my early days at my new job when I needed to ask for someone’s help but couldn’t remember names.
CTx
I second this! I can’t tell you how many times I was asked who took me to lunch the day before, who I had been to Starbucks with, etc., and it is incredibly awkward when you can’t remember and have to attempt to describe the person. (Although you shouldn’t stress too much about this during the Day One getting-to-know-everyone overload.)
Res Ipsa
Second the comfortable shoes recommendation. We had an intern start this week and we took her out to lunch, a 15 minute walk in probably her best heels, in the rain. By the time we walked back to the office, she had changed into flip-flops.:)
Lucy
I find this to be really helpful on first days: at some point when you have a minute to yourself, whether during the day or right after, take a notepad & write down everything you remember while it’s still fresh (e.g., people’s names, who does what, where to go for x, y, z, what you pw’s are, telephone codes, etc.).
A first day tends to be really exciting & you’ll likely forget a lot of this info but having a little informal scribble with stuff like, “Jenny — Mr. Slate’s secretary” or “office supplies in rm 537” can be very helpful down the road. I also inc. any fun facts I learn on that list, so down the line you can remember something thoughtful about a person that would otherwise be forgotten in the haste of adjusting to a new environment.
Good luck!
Shayna
Wear comfortable shoes, make sure you have a power bar or something else easy to eat quickly if the world as they know it falls apart and you miss getting lunch, remember to smile so no one thinks you’re stuck up or not happy to be there, and remember to listen – from the moment you walk in until you leave, make sure you’re observing what everyone wears, who the important people are, and how they refer to them (Mr. X, first name, etc.).
MLB
Don’t forget to really get to know your fellow summer associates. If there is one among you who is disliked by the rest, the rest of the firm will find out about it. Helping out a fellow summer associate who needs advice or a hand with a project, staying late to help one another, and making sure the others know when there’s a social event going on will put you in good stead with them, and word will get back to the attorneys that you are a team player.
claire
In general, never go into anyone’s office without a pen and notepad. You may think you are just popping in to ask them a quick simple question, and they may lay eyes on you and think – aha! I can get HER to do this research/make this phone call/whatever. And they will then proceed to rattle off a dozen details before you get to even finish saying whatever you came in to ask. Have fun : )
SES
Be nice to and respectful of everyone. My hubby always tried to be respectful to everyone regardless of rank – including the college students working in the law library. Of course it later turned out they were all kids of the partners and the partners asked their kids for the real scoop on SA behviour! One female SA was a real witch and didn’t get an offer because of how she treated staff as reported by the library gang! (Of course she was a suckup when partners were around)
Ariella
I have these sandals! They are comfortable and cute! But I need to get a pedicure before I can wear them in public – maybe this weekend.
SF Bay Associate
Nordstrom dot com just put a *lot* of watches on sale. Go to sale > handbags and accessories > what’s new. There were dozens, and from good brands, too.
Coco
I’ve noticed a lot of you comment that your offices are too cold, so there are always mentions of adding a sweater, blazer, etc. to outfits.
Anyone have any suggestions on how to handle an office that is incredibly too warm? We don’t have individual offices – more like an open cubicle area. I usually take off my suit jacket or outer layer (I always have an appropriate layer underneath) when I’m just at my desk, but then I feel like the outfit doesn’t look put together when an essential piece is missing.
And yes, I do have a fan – but it only does so much.
Thanks ladies!
KM
I have the same problem! I’ve found that having a constant glass or bottle of really cold water to drink helps. I fill mine up half way the night before, freeze it and toss it in my bag in the morning! Not only does it help regulate my body temperature, but it also helps me get my 8 glasses a day!
Shayna
I used to work in an over-warm office — I compensated with a statement-y necklace on top of the short sleeved shirt/layer (etc.)
Seventh Sister
If there is an ice machine, maybe a glass of ice water on your desk? I use one of those big plastic picnic-type ones on a coaster. If you are careful, you won’t spill it all over the place.
Soon to be cruising
Anyone ever worn a rash guard when swimming or at the beach or pool? I’m going on a Mediterranean cruise later this summer and am thinking about buying this for additional sun protection since I’m really fair-skinned, and seem to burn in the chest area no matter how much sunscreen I wear
http://www.landsend.com/pp/ShortSleeveActiveRashGuard~191512_59.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::WHI&CM_MERCH=search-_-rash+guard.
K
I’ve not worn those myself, but am considering them. I think last summer someone posting WSJ’s The Juggle talked about them — I remember she said she liked it and it wasn’t hot to wear b/c the moisture in the shirt kept her cool…..
North Shore
I live in those and board shorts when we go to Hawaii. They’ve saved me from both sunburn and jellyfish. I’m incredibly fair skinned, as well. I put my kids in them, as well. There are better looking ones if you check with surf-wear companies.
Anon
Definitely look at a surf-wear company. Also, this looser-fit is fine if you stay on dry land, but if you plan to swim in it, get one that is skin tight (otherwise it collects water and shifts around while you swim).
Res Ipsa
Also check out Title 9 Sports and Athleta for cute rash guards (and other outdoor/adventure wear!)
A.
Thanks for posting about this. I took my son to swim lessons last week and despite using copious amounts of 75 SPF, I still got “color” across my chest and shoulders (not burned, but it was pink, and turned to tan the next day). I am just too old to be getting that kind of exposure – it’s going to make me look like an old handbag in a few (very short) years. I was wondering about the “appropriateness” of wearing a rashguard – now that I know other women do this I am definitely getting one.
Seventh Sister
A lot of people (and their kids) in my baby swim class wear those. I don’t tan easily, esp. with sunscreen, but people seem to like them. Also, the baby classes are short – I might consider it if class was longer.
Soon to be cruising
Thanks for the tips! A., I feel your pain about burning in the chest area. I got a really bad burn on my chest several years ago and don’t want it to happen again. I’m thinking a rash guard (what a nasty name!) is the way to go in the future.
L from Oz
Note the Oz bit in my name – I’ve been wearing a rash vest for years. (Mine’s elbow length, zips up the front and is a really nice dark burgundy colour.) I do stand out a bit at the pool or beach, since most other wearers of similar garments are under the age of ten, but my natural skin colour is ghost, I love swimming, and will otherwise char-grill inside fifteen minutes. Also, I swim a lot on my own, and I can’t manage to put sunscreen on my own back, so there’s really no alternative! (I’m not a fan of asking random passers-by to do this.)
I often wear the vest over a regular one-piece swimming costume (the colours of the ones I have match) when I’m doing laps, but it matches my board shorts too when I’m at the beach.
In short, highly recommended. They’re not cheap, but they last pretty well if you’re careful about rinsing. And seconding the rec to look at surf companies – they’re a lot more stylish.
mille
I am plus sized and got mine at the Junonia website, and also have one in a mens size from a surf shop in Hawaii. They are essential for me, as I burn really easily and love the water.
Also, if your husband is balding and is going scuba diving, make sure he wears a swim cap. 4 years later and my husband still has brown spots on his head from the massive sunburn he got after 1 hour in the water.
Anon
Help! I need advice on how to laugh at myself.
I recently had some coworkers prank me and I’m sure it was just teasing, not really malicious, but I couldn’t even think of a way to react in the moment because I was so wounded (I can be pretty sensitive, although I try not to show it). I work in a very informal office where we tease each other a lot, so this wasn’t the first time and it certainly won’t be the last.
I fought my instincts to scream “you’re all a bunch of big jerky jerks!” like a five-year-old and run out of the office in tears – instead I waited until some time had passed and then calmly took a walk. But I feel like in the future, some response along the lines of “haha, you got me” would be good. This one just really stung because I fell for it just by doing something what I was supposed to do (something, by the way, that I asked my coworkers to pitch in and help with just before – so this was clearly in response to my request).
I have trouble overcoming the combination of embarrassment, anger, and hurt fast enough to respond with a joke – does anyone have any advice for these situations?
jcb
I guess it depends. What was the situation?
North Shore
Sounds like you work with a bunch of immature jerks. Nobody has ever played a “prank” on me in my 15+ years of practice. I don’t see why you should have to put up with this.
KH
Yeah – if this is so common that you anticipate repeat episodes, you do work with jerky jerks.
I’d think long and hard about the undertone of the “teasing” and “jokes.” If they are always made at someone’s expense, then they are harassment, bullying, intimidation, etc. and nothing really to laugh about. People can hide a lot of aggression under a laugh and if they can make you feel bad about feeling bad about it, so much the better (from their twisted point of view.) It seems likely to me that the problem isn’t needing to learn to laugh at yourself. If you can spot and point fun at your own foibles – “there I go – leaving my keys on my desk as I head out for the day” then the problem isn’t you.
I wish I could think of a book or type of training in something like verbal jujitsu (suggestions, anyone?) as a way to cope, but I strongly suggest you consider if you aren’t working in a hostile environment.
K
It’s been a long time since I’ve looked at The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense, but I see the author has one specifically for work situations:
http://tinyurl.com/2cu47kt
You may also want to look at A Survival Guide to Managing Employees from Hell: Handling Idiots, Whiners, Slackers, and Other Workplace Demons:
http://tinyurl.com/2g2nu9m
They are both available at Amazon.com (links above). Good luck, your colleagues sound like real pieces of work.
Anon
Thanks guys, I think just the act of posting this has helped me feel better about the situation.
The more I think about it, the more I think I’m exaggerating the situation – I genuinely don’t think it was meant to be more than teasing on a slow afternoon. When our receptionist is out, calls to the main line bounce to our direct lines. After feeling like I was the only one answering the phones all day (how long can you let the office line ring before you pick up, after all?), I reminded my coworkers that our receptionist was out and asked if they could help pick up the slack. So they later took turns crank calling my direct line and not saying anything. Since I kept hearing background rustling I thought it was someone on a bad cell connection that was trying desperately to get through, or maybe my phone was broken. As I got more frustrated at the unknown caller or broken phone, they erupted laughing. It’s the kind of thing anyone would laugh at (and even now I’m starting to see the humor) but I couldn’t find a way to act cool about it at the time because I felt so stupid for having “fallen” for the gag.
It’s not that I work in a hostile environment – the teasing is generally along the lines of the “annoying sibling” variety, and I’m certainly not targeted more than anyone else. I actually like that we’re casual enough to tease each other.
I think this is more that I can dish it out but not take it. I could easily laugh at myself and say “oh, there I go leaving my keys on the desk again” (and I do), but if someone said it to me I’d have a harder time laughing it off.
K, I will check out some of those recommended books.
Thanks again!
mbs
So you asked them to do their jobs, and they responded by taking up your time with prank calls, time that you needed to do your job? I think you were right on with the “jerky jerks”. I think a stern “I don’t have time for this, and neither do any of you” would have been appropriate here.
Shayna
Or just not answering the phone and letting them deal wit the calls…
C
That is incredibly immature and hostile. You are not overreacting, and they need to get a clue.
Eponine
I’m evidently in the minority here, but I think you need to lighten up. Your coworkers sound like a fun, lighthearted, collegial group. Start thinking about how you’re going to get them back.
MLB
If they prank you, it generally means they like you and thought you’d ultimately think it was funny. I’d try to view it as their way of showing their acceptance and be flattered.
Eponine
This is absolutely true – my department definitely tends to play tricks and tease people, but there are a few colleagues in other departments whom we find dry and humorless, and we definitely tiptoe around them (and dislike them, too).
Anonymous
I think that fun lighthearted pranks are fine — just not on coworkers and not in the office. While I agree that the best course of action for this situation is to laugh it off, pranks are unacceptable in the office environment in my opinion. They are unacceptable because they can be misunderstood and hurtful! Are victim in this instance sounds like a perfectly rational person, who realizes that she shouldn’t be offended and that her coworkers are simply trying to have fun, but the bottom line is that this prank made her uncomfortable. Anything that makes coworkers uncomfortable is inappropriate at the office.
Kit
I agree. Lighten up. This prank didn’t involve any hurtful comments or inappropriate behavior. Your coworkers wouldn’t have done this if they didn’t like you! Take it as a compliment and find a way to get them back. At the very least, tease them a little about having time to joke around while you are doing all the work.
Emily I
I bought a skirt at TJ Maxx for $20 several months ago and have received more compliments on it than pretty much anything else I own. The problem is, I’m not sure where to look for other pieces by the same designer/company. I tried a google search, but the company website didnt’ have any helpful information and I couldn’t find any other good results. (It looks like it’s a Canadian company that is fairly new to the US.)
The tag in the skirt says “Dalia Collection.” Does anyone have any leads?
1L NYC
I have no leads, but I do know from my frequent shopping at TJ Maxx/Marshalls that they often have the same brands in the stores.
Shayna
agree—perhaps a TJ maxx owned line? I know they own at least one…
Lynette
Their website does list a US office in NY and a phone number and email address. Perhaps you can contact them directly for what you are looking for?
anon
This is stupid, but does anyone else have guilt issues connected to calling in sick? I always feel like if I’m not at death’s door, I could really be working instead of lying on the couch watching sitcoms. And, in fact, with computer technology, I probably could be. I’ve never come up with a good rule of thumb for one it’s a good idea to take the day off.
Abby
I used to feel like that until I kept catching colds/the flu from other people who insisted on coming into the office with a fever, or when they were sneezing all over the place, or hacking up a lung. So now I feel guilty if I *don’t* stay home when I’m likely contagious, because I feel like it’s rude to knowingly spread germs.
A
I agree.
Anon’s question reminded me of the judge I clerked for. He was in his mid-80’s and would INSIST that we stay home if we were sick so that we would not get him sick. He would send us home if we were sick, and tell his secretary to tell us not to come back until we were no longer sick. I got strep throat during my clerkship, stayed home for several days, and for a day after I came back he spoke to me from across the room because he did not want to catch what I had had.
Of course not everyone is as paranoid as the judge, but given his age I think he had reason to be concerned.
Anon-Y.
Speaking as someone who’s just caught a nasty flu from a co-worker, i say YES, please stay home if you’re ill. You might be contagious even if you can crawl to work, and you might infect someone who really needs to be well and working.
Anon
First question – If I don’t stay home today, am I likely to keep fighting this cold for several more days, feeling lousy and knowing my productivity is down?
If answer is yes, then…
Second question – Will anything fall apart if I don’t go to work today?
If answer is no, stay home.
Sick days exist for a reason.
mbs
Exactly. If I have a brief due, or a hearing that I know no one else can cover, I go in unless I’m in the hospital. Otherwise, if I might be contagious, or I really need some time to get well, I stay home. But I can connect to our network from home and actually do some work, if I have to.
Shayna
Well said!
There’s a reason why even the president has a back up! Frankly, there’s no way that you’re so important that you can’t stay home a day — and there’s also no way that you’re going to be as efficient, creative, etc., when not feeling well.
E
I work in a field where we are irrational about not calling in sick (it’s even more twisted, in that it’s in medicine). I have spent many days at work, sick as a dog, taking call with IVs in, leaving OR cases to throw up and then scrub back in, napping under my desk, etc etc etc. It’s totally crazy, likely bad for my health in the long run, and definitely a hazard to my patients. But the it’s so ingrained in the culture, I have a certain amount of sick pride in upholding the tradition, and I do worry about what other people think of me. I highly recommend taking time off when you need to.
Eponine
Ugh, you’ve just given me another reason to be terrified of doctors. It’s bad enough worrying that you’ll be operated on by a resident who hasn’t slept in 36 hours. Now I have to worry that he’ll puke on me, too. Great.
I really can’t believe the amount of incredibly dangerous behavior that goes on in hospitals.
divaliscious11
I think it depends on how sick you are and what your work space is like. If you just have a cold but are functioning, then I think you should go to work, unless you work in a cube environment, but I’d expect you to work from home. If you have an office, you can work, spray some Lysol and keep it moving. If you are too ill to actually work, stay home and rest. I just get annoyed when I suspect my reports are “tired”. Tired and ill are usually not the same thing….
Eponine
Exhaustion impedes one’s ability to function well and can lead to illness. Wouldn’t you rather people take a day off to rest and recuperate instead of coming to work and doing a crappy job all day because they’re too tired to function?
divaliscious11
“Exhaustion” and “tired” are not the same thing. And sorry, but other people’s immunity issues, while important, shouldn’t be the determining factor. As I said, if you are functioning, I don’t think you should call in sick. If you work environment doesn’t allow you to limit your contact, then work from home. This doesn’t mean come in when you clearly should be home, in bed asleep, but if your home watching the Friends marathon and FB’ing, you could have come to work….
Eponine
I’m glad that the law where I live requires employers to give sick days so bosses like you can’t browbeat their employees into making themselves even sicker instead of taking time to rest and recuperate.
divaliscious11
I don’t brow beat anyone. That said, sick time is an oft abused benefit, and people would be more prudent to use it when really needed, not for common colds etc… where there is no disfunction. The work still has to get done, and often spills over on to everyone els on the teams already full plate. No one minds picking up the slack when your are legitimately ill, but when you stay home because you have the sniffles a decongestant would take care of, everyone gets resentful. And if you time this illness after taking more than planned days off and your available vacation time is dwindling, it gets more and more suspicious, Similarly, every sniffle requiring a trip to the doctor’s office gets old – quickly.
s in Chicago
I think it is incredibly selfish to come in sick, even if it is “just a cold.” I work with someone who does this all the time. One coworker of ours is a caregiver for her mother who has cancer and is going through chemo. Another coworker has a newborn at home. My husband has Crohn’s and is on immune suppressants. Your “cold” can be a major health concern when it spreads to others through all the common spaces you share–the copy machine, door knobs, elevator, etc. Your own office is great, but it still doesn’t keep your germs away from everyone. STAY HOME.
Blonde Lawyer
I also have Crohn’s. Just wanted to say hi and hope your husband is feeling well soon!
RR
Yes. I went something like 6 years without calling in sick. Now that I have kids, I occasionally have to stay home with them, but I never stay home for me. My only sick day in the last 7 years was after I had been up all night with the stomach flu and felt like I’d been run over by a truck the next morning. Even so, I was still trying to get into the office, and my husband had to talk me out of it. I ended up spending the day getting progressively worse again to the point of being barely able to move and going to bed at 6:30 (miraculously, woke up feeling about 95% the next day – the power of sleep!) I still “had” to do a couple telephone conferences/email correspondence to finalize some settlement negotiations. I’m an idiot because I totally could have/should have just asked my boss to cover it. He would have and wouldn’t have thought badly of me (see my 7 years with one sick day).
I don’t know why I do that to myself (and my coworkers). I generally wouldn’t go in with a stomach flu (I think I would have wised up even without my husband talking me into staying home), but I go in with a cold all the time. Luckily no major flu or anything in the last few years. I’d stay home with the flu.
Chicago K
Do those who normally commute to work on foot (at least partially) cab it or drive in when they are sick?
I always find the worst part about going to work when I am sick is walking in the cold a mile to get to the office. Sure, I might be able to cope with sitting in front of my computer all day, but the process of getting there will wipe all my energy.
RR
Definitely true. I hate that sick, weak, clammy, miserable feeling you get walking to the office or just being outside generally.
remi
HELP ME LEARN TO NETWORK.
I’m a single 20-something associate, only female on my floor (besides secretaries). I feel like there is such a DISTANCE between me and the dudes I work for….kind of like I’m the cute but pesky girfriend who’s at the frat house on Sundays cleaning/making conversation when the guys just want to watch football. This is ironic, as I don’t spend much time at ALL with them in non-work or social/work settings. I don’t feel like it’s appropriate for me to go play basketball or work out with my colleagues it’s awkward to be a pretty girl sweating to Px90 alongside my married colleagues in thee firm’s basement AND I’m bad at the sports they play together (although, truth be told, I am probably in better shape than MOST of them). I also don’t golf (although I’m trying to learn…quickly).
I feel like the men in my office are a tight knit pack. I rarely see the women who have made partner–(I think that there’s 4 in my office…). The other female associates and partners are married/have kids, so when they are AT events, they’re the first at the door to leave. If they have their own clients, they don’t introduce me.
I feel like I get along with my colleagues well, but I know that I am not developing the same type of relationships/comraderie that my male colleages are. I don’t know how to speak with the clients when we entertain (I don’t have too much in common with a 60 year old male CEO who’s my dad’s age…) so I end up talking to their wives after the “male” conversation turns to sports or some story from the goddamn golf course. (nothing wrong with the wives…just not the same thing). I am supremely uninterestedin sports, although I make a pretty good effort to watch/visit espn to have at least something to contribute to the conversation–I even won the ncaa office pool. I also feel like me even BEING at certain events makes the event one that’s “mixed company” instead of a “boys club” and that they feel like they have to be on better behavior if I”m around…(again–not true…..I’m actually pretty confident that my friends’ conversations are far more interesting/vulgar than my married male coworkers could ever hope for theirs to be to be–sorry guys!).
My colleagues are very nice–I like them a lot. They are EXTREMELY protective, which is sweet, but makes me feel kind of incompetent…like they think that I need all of this assistance because someone might be “a little aggressive” in a hearing. (I grew up in the NOISIEST/CRAZIEST home where whoever yells loudest wins–I have absolutely no problem being yelled at/holding my own in verbal altercations–no one believes me). I feel like all of the “learn quick” opportunities (the ones where you fall on your ass/get OWNED) are less available to me because everyone treats me like either their daughter or their little sister. I feel bad complaining, but it kind of takes away from any successes I have, too, as I have this bizarre defacto mafia making sure that I always have “backup” for certain situations.
I don’t mean to be boastful, but I’m VERY bright, and (especially as I see my colleagues’ sometimes mediocre work product) I feel like I’m not going to get the same opportunities because I can’t figure out a way to connect to the people who move and shake things at my firm in a way that is not little sister/daughter. I’m certainly not naive enough to believe that career life is a true meritocrazy, but I loathe the idea of missing opportunities because I can’t crack this code.
Please advise! For the record, I look my age, dress VERY conservatively, etc. etc. etc.
remi
*meritocracy…although meritocrazy might have been a Freudian slip!
Shayna
If you’re really feeling like you’re behind, then it may be time to move on, but if you love your job and want to move up in the company, make a note of what the guys are into — I know that the men I work with are fans of the shows 24, Lost, riding their motorcycles, and large machinery (like most men), so when I had to travel on business the last couple weeks and work closely wth a couple of them I made sure I had brushed up on the topics — I was thrilled to be able to trot out some boat based knowledge since we were in Baltimore’s Inner Harbor area (which is like one giant dock) – The key I find is to dress moderately – if you look like a major goody two shoes you’ll get treated like one, speak way less than you listen, and – this is the hardest part – laugh at the inevitable sexist jokes that they test you with.
Elle Woods
I wish I had the answer, but I actually have a similar problem! There is a massively bitchy clique forming among the people in my year (there are about 15 of us) and it is getting really tiresome. It’s like the popular kids in high school getting together and not letting the other kids sit at their table. Case in point – someone organising a BBQ for people from work, to which only selected people were invited, but this of course getting around everyone and making the rest of us feeling pretty snubbed when it was obvious we were intentionally not invited.
Now I’m totally ok with the fact that different people get on differently, and I get on with some people better than others just the same. It is just the juvenile high-school mentality that is starting to really piss me off. I have no burning need to be best friends with work colleagues, but I do recognise it is important to have a workable relationship with them. I’m quite happy to keep my head down and be nice and professional, but the problem is that these bitchy people are really well liked in the firm by the partners etc and I am starting to get a little concerned that it will affect the non-clique members’ career prospects.
Any ideas on how to handle this would be much appreciated.
Eponine
This is a tough situation. You need to socialize and build alliances with coworkers, but you don’t want to be perceived as cliquey. Frankly, if this goes on awhile, you should start thinking about moving on. Sorry I don’t have anything more useful to say :).
MJ
I don’t think this is the answer you completely want to hear, but I’m just going to throw two main things out there:
–you don’t need to be best friends with your colleagues if your work product speaks for itself AND you are friendly/participating in most situations (like lunches, etc.). It’s OK to have work friends and real friends
–this is too late, but it’s possible that this isn’t the best fit “corporate culture”-wise for you, and it might be worth investigating (in a year or two) whether you can’t find a similar job at a place that’s a better fit
Those are two lessons that it took me YEARS to learn, but each time I have left an employer where I always felt the odd one out (we’re talking only girl on the trading floor at a hedge fund, investment banking in Europe, etc.) I have been SO SO much happier to find colleagues that I have more in common with once I moved on. It’s nice to have a few of the same hobbies and a few true work friendships. I once went to a Women on Wall Street conference and had lunch with this amazing woman from Deustche, and she said something along the lines of “I am WAY too busy with my real life to engage in fake hobbies to get along with my work colleagues.” She might be senior enough to get away with that, but you are not.
It sounds like you are doing almost everything right. Trying to be a trouper, not to let “boys outings” get to you, etc. I would try to engage with the other women at your firm a bit more (like ask them out to lunch, even if they are more senior, busy, married, with kids, etc.). And not all of the boys are birds of a feather. Find a fun work boy-friend (hint: any “out” guys are especially awesome). The one thing that I would strongly caution you against is hanging with client wives. You are a professional. Hang with the professionals, not the spouses. Try to find out more about your clients (do they go sailing? talk about things they like, such as golf, etc.). When all else fails, people enjoy talking about themselves….
And if you get the feeling that you are making events different by your mere presence, well, that’s something the boys need to get over. Honestly. But I really do think you need to ask yourself if this TRULY is the firm/office/location for you. You might find yourself a lot happier somewhere that you are not on tenterhooks all the time. Wanting to belong is a true psychological need.
I wish that things were not this way, and workplaces were more liberated, etc. But some just aren’t. And you can be that glass-ceiling shatterer if you have the patience and want to put up with a lot. But I have also found that sometimes, fighting that fight while still doing your job takes a real toll and isn’t worth it.
It seems like things are just not peachy and comfortable, and that’s not super-fun either. You’re seeing the writing on the wall now. I would say that you should be patient (to a point), but logical if it’s clear that you will never get ahead in the boy’s club.
Good luck.
A.
“–this is too late, but it’s possible that this isn’t the best fit “corporate culture”-wise for you, and it might be worth investigating (in a year or two) whether you can’t find a similar job at a place that’s a better fit.”
This. There’s very, very little either remi or Elle Woods are going to be able to do to get “in” if they are “out.” I don’t think this is an irrevocable rule, but generally what happens (in my experience) is that the ones in the “in” group work to promote their own and it’s very hard for those “out” to move ahead, once the “in” people on their level move up to management. Not to say that it’s impossible, but honestly – if my office was like a corporate version of The Hills or a frat house, I would just do the best job I could, keep my head down and not worry about trying to make friends, and think about jumping ship once I got to a point where my advancement was blocked. In the long run, it is actually way better not to get caught up in infantile social antics and drama in the workplace, even if it doesn’t feel that way right now. As people mature and have families, there will be less time and energy to spend on work melodrama and so it should calm down, but I don’t necessarily know if I’d be willing to wait it out. Good luck to you both.
Anon
It seems like you have two separate problems–one is the relationship w/ your coworkers, and the other is your knack w/ clients (or their wives).
As for your coworkers–How long have you been working there? It may just be a matter of people warming up to you, or developing some shared work experiences that you can talk/joke about later. If that’s not the case, are there any that you get along better with, or you feel treat you less daughterly/sisterly? Maybe talking to that person could give you a better idea of how you’re perceived and why.
Also, about the vulgarity and your hardnosed-ness–do you exhibit that side of yourself at work, or are you trying to be proper and “conservative”? If the men in your office are ok letting off a few choice works when the situation calls for it, you should be too. Once you drop a few around your coworkers, they’ll be less likely to edit themselves b/c you’re around. Similarly, if you can hold your own in arguments, don’t be afraid to exhibit that side of yourself in front of your coworkers, either (not picking fights or anything, but if an opportunity to be ballsy presents itself, take it). If you go around being prim and proper, you will continue to be treated like the daughter/sister.
About networking with clients–this can be really hard at first. Sometimes talking to the wife isn’t a horrible way to go, esp. if she makes the decisions! If you’ve worked on matters for the client, there is always shop talk. When that is inappropriate, go for community-interest topics–like neighborhoods and schools, have you seen the play/exhibit/whatever that is in town. Or go with stuff in the news, if you can keep it out of politics (unless you’re sure you’re not in politically mixed company!). If they are drinkers, or a little rowdy, talk about types of beer, liquor, etc. Honestly, I’m not above flirting a little bit if I think it will help my relationship with the client more than it would hurt it! Finally, ask them questions about themselves–where did you go to school, how did you and your wife meet, do you have any kids, what do they do, when did you decide to start your business, etc… keep drilling until you find some common ground to chat about.
Eponine
OK, maybe I misunderstand what you meant, but I cannot think of any situation where it’s ok to flirt with a client, especially if he’s married. I can’t think of anything good that could come from it, and a lot of bad.
I took her mention of vulgarity to mean talking about sex, not cursing, but I agree that there’s no reason not to swear if the guys do.
CFM
The flirting comment grossed me out. If it helps you in the short term, I can almost guarantee that it will hurt you in the long run.
Shayna
I took flirting to mean kidding around, smiling appropriately – and there’s nothing wrong with that — And it does get you seen as a personality more than the girl who sits over there …
Lucy
I would agree with the comment about how you present yourself. I have a close friend who works in a very similar environment, she is also young, 20s, pretty, etc. But the difference is that while she is also not too close to the married, female lawyers who are busy with kids, their own lives, etc., she does have very good camaraderie w/the male partners & sr attorneys (nothing inappropriate, of course). The trick is that she is naturally a very easy going, ‘feel free to say whatever around me’ kind of girl . . . So I think that they feel comfortable around her in a way they don’t around other young female attorneys around her age.
Funny enough, she probably does a LOT of stuff that people on this blog would seriously frown upon (stay after work to drink whiskey with the bosses, occasionally curse in the office, talk about her personal life, etc.) but it works for her. I think the lesson is to be yourself, more or less. If you’re just starting out, ask yourself if you’re trying so hard to seem professional that you’re coming off as a bit of a prude/teetotaler. Also, don’t get relegated to talking to the wives of clients. Even if you have nothing to say when the conversation turns to sports, just nod and smile. Try to change topics. No one is interested in just sports — you can mention current events (lots of athletes do stupid sh*t all the time, movies and activities you’ve done or are doing, etc. But don’t do the whole “men . . . sports. . . shucks!” thing. Try to be well rounded and interesting, and people will see you that way. When someone says, ‘how was your weekend,’ don’t just say ‘good’ but have something conversation worthy to share (e.g., I went sailing, or I rode the whatever coaster at 6 flags…. things that can lead to a conversation & maybe even a group outing).
Eponine
Drinking, cursing and getting to know your coworkers personally is all fine. Drunkeness, vulgarity and gossiping is what gets people into trouble.
North Shore
Sounds like you need your own work. If you are a small player in big cases, take on a pro bono case where you will be making your own court appearances and making your own decisions. Let others see that you can handle these things on your own. Your firm sounds like it might not be the best fit for you, so maybe your networking should be outside the firm. With pro bono work, you will be making connections with judges, opposing counsel, etc. You could also join an Inn of Court, or take on a leadership position with a bar committee. You need leadership opportunities, and I don’t think it’s going to happen inside your firm.
Eponine
You NEED to talk to the clients at events. Learn about their interests and talk about things they like. If that means watching ESPN, so be it. You’re smart and you can learn and you can fake it. Be friendly with the wives, but if you spend all your time with them the clients and your colleagues will mentally put you in the same category as the wives, instead of in the attorney category.
The firm might not be a good fit for you overall. But if you want to be taken seriously, you need to change how you act and react to things. If you feel your colleagues are overprotective, volunteer for assignments that require you to be a bit aggressive. If your boss expresses concern, speak to him privately and tell him this is exactly the challenge you are looking for. You should speak to your boss privately anyway and, without sounding like a victim or blaming the boys, ask for more opportunities to demonstrate your strengths (enumerate them for him) and work independently.
You don’t need to be best friends with your coworkers, but it helps to be collegial. Try to get to know the women attorneys – they may be married, but you probably have some common interests you could talk about. Perhaps pick one who seems to get along with you and ask her out to lunch. As for the guys, why don’t you invite them to do something and pick out the bar yourself instead of going along with whatever they have planned?
Finally, whatever you do, do NOT try to act like the guys do. Do not try to out-raunchy them, out-sports them, out-drink them, whatever. Do not be vulgar even if they are being vulgar. Fair or unfair, that kind of behavior never ends well for women in conservative professions. You should, however, try to out-lawyer them. Prove you are great at your job, and you’ll be fine.
Elle Woods
I agree with all these points, actually, I am very much thinking that the culture isn’t right – I hate the bitchiness and talking about people behind their backs, which very quickly will turn to backstabbing.
I am looking into other firms, but I cannot help but wonder if the nature of Big Law is such that this kind of behaviour is to be found everywhere. The thing is, I get on well with other people in the firm, it’s just this small group in my year that I find a little pathetic and juvenile. It could be because I am a few years older than these people and feel like people should have grown up from playground antics by now, but maybe that’s just me being ignorant!
Clerky
Not all BigLaw firms are like this! I work in BigLaw and am having a great time with my colleagues. Of course, we’re not all best friends, but we’re very friendly and supportive of one another. I summered at another firm that had a frat mentality and felt really, really awkward. Everyone always talked about sports, kids, and all of the litigators were men. I was also the only minority at that firm and was always asked a lot of questions about my ethnic background (not in a mean way mind you) but still, it felt weird being the token ethnic chick. The place I’m at now is still overwhelmingly white but there is no frat culture and certainly no backstabbing that I’m aware of. It sounds like this firm isn’t a great fit but please don’t think that every firm will be like the one you’re at! Best of luck to you.
RR
Also in BigLaw, and I have had no clique experiences. I did lateral in as a senior associate, so I don’t know if that changed things…
Eponine
If you’re not in the same age group, just the same class year, and you have other work buddies, this isn’t as much of a problem as it sounded in your original post. Every place I’ve ever worked has had a group of gossipy, cliquey people. In some places, unfortunately that clique includes the management, and people not in the clique eventually get pushed out or leave. But it’s normal for colleagues at the same level to have disparate interests and groups of friends and if you’re a bit older, no one will find it odd if you mostly hang out with colleagues two or three class years above you, or if you don’t hang out with coworkers much at all outside the office. My advice is to seek out work with partners who aren’t attached to the clique, and whatever you do, don’t let your irritation with the clique show. You don’t want to be seen as the mean or disagreeable one, especially if there are partners who like the people in the clique.
MelD
I think it’s a mistake to assume you have nothing in common with your male coworkers/clients just because they enjoy participating in and talking about sports. Many of them probably have other interests, but since that’s something they all share in common, it’s what they talk about at work. I’ve worked in male-dominated environments and many of my female friends are also really interested in sports, but I’ve never had a problem despite my lack of interest. In smaller group/one-on-one situations, I usually find my friends who seem interested in mostly sports have plenty of other interests, many of which I share with them.
My guess is that you are coming across as too prim/girly girl for them to feel comfortable around you. I’m not sure what’s wrong working out in the office gym. As long as you aren’t wearing revealing workout clothes, what’s the big deal? When you try to put off this aura of the pretty girl who never sweats/has any bodily function, I think that helps to relegate you to the daughter/little sister who needs to be protected category.
Lucy
Agreed.
SF Bay Associate
I’m in this situation as well. Mostly male office, and they love talking about sports. But when I first started, I tried to watch SportsCenter sometimes so I could participate to a degree – an amazing catch is amazing whether you watch baseball (which I can’t stand) or not, so I could comment about the catch the next day. Thank goodness for highlights. I ask about their golf games when I know they went on the weekend, and I can be happy for them when they tell me about a great shot they made and laugh with them when they tell me about a bad game.
I agree with Lucy. I find I’m using the same strategies as her friend and it works for me too. Everyone (men and some women) at my office has a full-on potty mouth, and outside of work I do too to some degree, so I participate in that to the level I’m comfortable with, though I try to avoid the f word at work. I go to some of the mostly-male scotch drinking after work a few times a month, even though I’m not keen on scotch. I don’t pretend I like the scotch, so I’ll have a little of it (and not waste expensive scotch, which they never forgave a female summer for doing) and socialize. It’s especially important to participate when you first start work, so they get used to including you. They didn’t used to invite me to lunch when they all went, I think out of habit of just grabbing each other on the way out of the office. So I jokingly called them out on it, and now they invite me. I make sure to go sometimes, to keep them in the habit of asking me.
The men at my office pretty much know they can say whatever they want around me, though I’ve had to verbally smack some knuckles a few times when they go too far. Then they apologize, it’s all good, and the conversation carries on. They’re all married though, so I haven’t had to deal with any hitting-on-women stories, which would definitely make me uncomfortable. I also work my ass off and produce good work that’s acknowledged by partners, so that earns me respect among the men.
I still feel excluded to some degree, but I think that if I took more of an interest in things they liked, they would welcome my inclusion. It’s certainly not an ideal situation, but I work in a male-dominated practice area and that’s just how it’s going to be anywhere. Gotta make it work.
CC
I really do not mean this in a mean way, but I am meaning it constructively. You come off sort of obnoxious in this post. I completely understand it is an internet post, but the boasting about your attractiveness and your intelligence and your coworkers’ short comings are really grating, so I wanted to mention it in case you are doing similar things at work. It seems like you think you are much smarter/brighter than them (which is of course very possible!) and that the only thing holding you back is your inability to network, so I just wanted to mention how you sound in case there is another reason. I would also suggest being more open to the fact that you may have something in common with a 60 year old CEO, and that part of networking is finding that. (For instance, maybe you live on the same street, went to college in the same area, restaurants, etc)
AN
Remi – Totally agree with CC above. Perhaps worth some introspection on your side too….
anon
I totally agree with this. If you truly believe what you posted, your colleagues will have picked up on this.
Delta Sierra
AN: yes. A little humility, please, Remi. You might feel superior to people on characteristics A, B and C, but they might have it all over you on D, E and F, which are equally valid.
A.
I thought this same thing and just didn’t want to say it. Quiet superiority is just as noticable as outright obnoxious superiority, and in fact turns people off more. Look at it this way, remi – you maybe smarter than the people you work with, but they obviously have more social proficiency than you, so there’s probably something you CAN learn from them, if you’ll open yourself up to the experience. If you aren’t familiar with the theory of Emotional Intelligence I would suggest reading up on it. Emotional intelligence is a far better predictor of success than IQ. A developmental activity for you might be to improve on your perception and understanding of emotions, yours and those of other people.
remi
I imagine that most people on this board are both attractive and bright! I did not though these things in there to be a brat/grating/because I feel better than my coworkers, but to kind of make two points- 1) my work is just as good as theirs, and I’ve had just as much success both in and outside my firm–no reason for the overprotectiveness and 2) it’s sometimes hard to joke/talk with colleagues and not come across as flirtatious or “ball busting” if you’re attractive. Some interactions I’ve seen have come across to me as borderline inappropriate between the “objective 9” receptionist (their words, not mine) and my male colleagues when she gives a group of them hell, but not the same way when the married mother of 3 (who is also very attractive, but “mom hot”–again, their words) does. I don’t know if I’m making sense?
I seriously don’t act like a crazy person who brags about being smart and bright, and guess I should have explained those nuances better.
As for the client/wife thing–it’s just really difficult, I’m generally introduced to them as a couple by the male colleague. The introductuion is normally cursory, and then the introducer and client tend to land in their own conversation, kind of like they expect me and the wife to have things to talk about. I LOVE meeting new people and conversing, and maybe this board has me kind of more self conscious than I’d like to be, but I feel like trying hard to break into to the conversation about clients/shop talk/golf with the two guys leaves the wife out the conversation, making me look rude….but (since the wives aren’t interested in this conversation 80-100% of the time) talking to the wife too much sends me down a rabbit hole of being introduced to all of the wives, NOT the players in the clients’ circle.
I guess I’m saying that I need a way to quickly include everyone in some sort of conversation that does not involve the golf course/shop talk so I don’t face this bad choice.
Again, I assure you that I do not sit preening or expecting worship or feeling smugly superior to my colleagues. I have worked and continue to work very very hard and want to make sure I’m setting myself up correctly networkwise.
MelD
I don’t mean to be harsh, but you’re still focusing on how attractive you are and how that limits you. Is the mother of three in question also an associate/partner? If so I would hope they treat her differently than a receptionist, and that would have absolutely nothing to do with her level of attractiveness. You are at the same level as the other associates and need to act like it. That means being more assertive when the times call for it instead of thinking “Oh I’m so cute they’ll just say inappropriate things if I am a ball buster.”
CFM
Point taken, I just wanted to point out how you come across in print, it may be telling of how you come across in person. I realize you don’t sit preening, but your subtle digs at your colleagues seemed to suggest an air of superiority, even if it was subconscious. Since anonymous internet and all that, just wanted to point it out to you as something to keep in mind.
CC
whoops that was me not my roommate. Also wanted to add that they way they talk about women would really bother me, it does not sound like a good situation.
Eponine
The guys are rating your coworkers’ attractiveness? Do they think they’re on a TV show? That kind of discussion is absolutely inappropriate even among men only, let alone in front of women coworkers. It’s borderline sexual harassment/hostile environment that they’re discussing this in front of you.
As for the client wives – I think you need to have a talk with your coworkers about this one. Tell them that you realize that the wives need to be kept happy, but that just because you are a woman, that doesn’t mean it’s your job to talk to them. Your entire team needs to take turns talking with clients wives, not just you.
Honestly, your firm sounds like it’s stuck in the 1960s. I’m not aware of any major firms or legal organizations that have such a boys’ club environment, complete with male-only clients with trophy wives to entertain. If things don’t improve, maybe you should think about moving on.
Shayna
Eponine – you must be very young and/or new to the workforce. Most finance and legal organizations are male dominated — even in corporate, the finance and legal divisions are usually male dominated. Very few have female leadership — which is why it is so important to be able to network so that you don’t get ‘mommy tracked’ with the assumption that you are too delicate/absorbed with your kids/not bright to do what it takes to get to the top.
MelD
Having worked in various places during the dot com boom, I can say that many of those organizations were far far worse than anything Remi mentioned. One place had organized strip club outings on a weekly basis. It also had (attractive) females in leadership positions in other departments, but I doubt they would have cut it if they acted too delicate around that kind of behavior. I just shrugged it off and moved on. My job required me to have a more assertive personality to be successful and not let those sorts of things bother me.
Shayna
Mel – that has been my experience as well having worked in different orgs.’s finance divisions and in public accounting… You have to ‘man up’ so to speak in order to get your voice heard — but not be so assertive that you get labeled a bitch that no one wants to work with. To a certain (unfair) extent it is a fine line — and while you have to laugh at the obnoxious sexist jokes , you don’t get to make any — also unfair, but c’est la vie – such is life.
Eponine
@Shayna – I guarantee you I’m at least 10 years older than you, and judging from your incessant, preachy and cloying responses all over these board, far more mature as well. Also I am actually a lawyer with experience relevant to the questioner, unlike you.
RR
I have to second Eponine. I have never been foisted upon the “wives” at a networking event. We have male and female clients and few, if any, trophy wives to be entertained. It seems odd to be and very, like Eponine said, “1960s.” That said, I don’t see anything wrong with working the “woman angle” where it helps. I deal with a lot of women in positions of power at clients who want to give work to other women who are up and coming (and some that don’t). The key is connecting with all your clients/potential clients/people in general. You just never know where the next referral with come from.
Of course, first and foremost as an associate – particularly a younger associate – is that you need to be working on being an excellent lawyer. If you don’t have that, it doesn’t really matter in the long run whether you are talking to clients or wives.
Clerky
A lot of my friends tell me that I’m a really great networker, which surprises me because I don’t see myself that way. Based on my experience, the key is to be friendly and interested in everyone you talk to. This isn’t just a lesson for work, but rather, a life lesson. Whenever I meet someone new in a work setting, I simply smile, ask questions, talk about local current events. and give them my undivided attention. People respond to that.
Don’t feel like you don’t have anything in common with guys or 60 year old men because you really might. I hate sports as well and have no interest in it, but if everyone is talking about sports I just listen and ask some questions and no one seems to mind that sports isn’t my thing.
RR
There’s no easy solution. You just have to spend years kicking butt at your job. Be bright. Be key on cases. Kick butt at hearings. Show that it doesn’t get to you and don’t give in to the protective instincts. If you feel comfortable, it’s okay to say something. I had to tell my boss (who knows I am plenty assertive) to stop telling people I couldn’t meet late now that I have kids. He was trying to be helpful, but it’s up to me to set the boundaries – not for him to set them for me. If you give in on that when it’s convenient, then that’s what you are going to get all the time.
Other than that – get out of the office. Don’t rely on your male coworkers to define your networking. Do your job. Be professional. Do well on projects. Then, go do your own networking. Find an organization that you can do volunteer work for. Join bar association committees and Inn of Court. Meet people outside your firm and outside law. Ultimately, those will be the sources of your clients – not your colleagues who are the sources of your projects now.
Little Lurker
Omigod!!1!!!
I absolutely have this problem in college — at one of my extracurriculars, I’m one of the only girls, and frequently the only girl at meetings and events. BUT I’m a smart, empowered chick who doesn’t take “no” or “you’re such a girl!” for an answer. I am also one of the leaders, and have to constantly make sure I’m treated as such.
I can’t speak to work environments, but I do know how to be friends/friendly peers with guys. My guy friends are, in some ways, MUCH cooler than my girlfriends (definitely less gossipy).
If you’re not into sports or babes, find something else to bond over: movies, music, TV, etc. Maybe you are all secretly addicted to LOST? Figure out what they talk about that isn’t about work. You don’t have to love it, and maybe the best way to show them that you don’t need intellectual protecting is to start (and win!) a loud argument about who’s the best singer on American Idol!
Don’t give up on the sports things yet, though — challenge them to a footrace? (Lame, I know). If you do end up playing/working out with them, never, NEVER accept the excuse that you “play/throw/lift like a girl.” You don’t do ANYTHING like a girl, ever. You are a girl, but don’t enforce the stupid gender stereotype.
Also, stop socializing exclusively with the wives. Don’t dis them — that will hurt you (girls tend to hold petty grudges forever). Be politely friendly, but make it clear they know you’re their husband’s coworker, and not a potential sex threat. Also, treat the secretaries like the gems they are, but don’t go do girly stuff with them.
Always, always dress conservatively. It sucks that you can’t wear pretty pink flounces every day, but that’s the way it is.
No idea about your older male bosses…I’m still working on that myself.
Hope this helps!
LL
PS I hate hate hate that “pesky but cute girlfriend” syndrome. I have friends in frats, and I absolutely make it clear that when I come over, if I do the dishes, they have to help. I don’t take any of that sh*t, and I don’t respect the frat girls who do.
Little Lurker
The “Omigod” was meant to come across as sarcastic, BTW.
Anonymous
I worked in a very similar environment and feel your pain. The male partners and associates would get together on the weekends and, at times, would invite my husband- not me!! They would go to lunch together, work out together, play golf with clients, etc. How can you not think, as the only female associate, that your colleagues are in a better position to advance and make connections? It is good that you recognize this now. The only female partner at the firm ended up talking with a senior male partner about the situation (because she was left out at times, too), but nothing really changed. In fact, it made me even more uncomfortable.
I had an opportunity to leave that job, and though I still work with only male attorneys, they are not as blatant with the “guys’ club” as my previous work environment. Good luck with your situation, and I definitely second looking around for a work environment that fits you.
lawyer
Law firm ladies (and former law firm ladies), I have an honest question for you about billable hours.
Do you, have you ever, or do you personally know of people who overbill/pad their hours/”value bill” etc. (obviously when there is no fixed fee arrangement in place)? The internet is anonymous…The context of my question is below, but doesn’t matter too much so if you don’t want to read it, you can just answer my question :)
The context: the partner whom I work for most noticed that my hours are low compared to the work that he knows I produce. He asked if I write down all my time. Of course I write down all my time – making my hours is the bane of my existence. I have been asked this more than once in the past because I haven’t made my hours (although much of that is due to the economy in the last couple of years and the market I’m in). I even found out recently that when I was a summer associate several years ago and produced a memo, although the partner said it was great work product, he felt he could not bill it to the client because I billed so little time (he told my mentor this at the time, but I just recently found out). I know – perverse, right? I have heard so much about people being told they are billing too much time, being questioned on why something took so long, and clients balking at bills. So I never felt like I was spending too little time, and I never feel like I am sacrificing quality work for a quick job. (I am not trying to brag – what would be the point – but I have been told repeatedly that I am a top performer quality- and skill-wise – just to put this into context.) Apparently, I am very efficient at my work – which is, as you know, a good and bad thing for law firms with the hourly billing model. I have a good rapport with my partner, who is one of the most ethical people I know, and I know he wasn’t trying to give me a message to slow down with my work or take my time. The amount of time expected for the matters I complete tends to be 25-50% higher than the time it actually takes me (and that I bill). So, this is a long way of saying that I don’t think I am some crazy genius whose brain works 25-50% faster than my colleagues. That makes me question why others bill more for the same amount of work, and whether people pad their hours in order to make their hours or get bonuses. Maybe not egregiously, but do they add 10, 20% here and there? Do people bill during lunch breaks/non-work chats with colleagues/websurfing, etc.? Is htis common practice and I am just naive? BTW, I am not looking for justification to start overbilling. I just want to know. Thanks for reading my long ramblings.
Eponine
Do I know anyone who pads hours or overbills? No (but no one would admit that anyway). Do I know people who don’t work as efficiently as possible and don’t turn the clock off every time they take a break? Sure, it’s common practice.
SF Bay Associate
Yes, this.
T
I had the same problem at the law firm I was at. I was always being told that I wasn’t counting all my time and my partner said he was going to just add at extra 20% to all my bills. I don’t know if he actually did that or not. I think my problem came from being in government before private practice, where there was never enough time to get everything done. I’m sorry I don’t have any answers for you, I just left the law firm a month ago to work for one of my clients.
K
Yes, I know people who pad hours, esp in biglaw. People do bill during bathroom/snack breaks, non work chats, personal phone calls, internet use, walking the halls, etc. The people who are the most careful about writing down their time are the ones *most likely* to be low on hours.
v
In addition to what other people said, I know plenty of people who enter/reconstruct all or most of their time at the end of the month. There’s no way that’s going to be totally accurate and I’m betting it ends up a bit high.
lawyer
Thanks everyone for the input. To me, all of the above count as padding/overbilling. If you are chatting with friends, walking around, surfing the net, and not turning off the clock, you are billing the client for your personal time…just because it is sandwiched in the middle of actually doing work doesn’t make it client billable to me. Yes, we are “at work,” but we don’t get credit for sitting in our offices becuase of the billable hour model (sadly). Same with reconstructing hours at the end of the month; it just seems like a way to pad your hours with a clean conscience (whether intentional or not). I wonder if clients and in-house counsel especially are aware of this and use it to justify negotiating payment down, since most in-house counsel come from firms. If clients disapprove or would disapprove of this practice if they knew about it, it just seems like unethical behavior to me. But, it seems, that is irrelevant…K, I agree with your conclusion about people who are careful being likely to be low on hours. Be ethical and shoot myself in the foot every year…or compromise myself and “play the game” to get ahead. Ah, law firm life…
Blonde Lawyer
Are you sure when you were asked if you write down your hours if they meant physically record them as opposed to “marking yourself down?” Some people are afraid they took too long and are embarassed so they knock some time off before submitting it.
I agree with you though that in order for everyone to be billing what they claim to be, something fishy must be going on. People bill much more than they are in the office. I believe that people can work from home but I doubt they do as much work from home as they claim to.
divaliscious11
I am always more efficient from home because the phone isn’t ringing, and no one (clients or others in the legal dept.) is stopping by my office……
RR
I do a lot more at home – no one popping into my office, no loud conversations on speakerphone by coworkers, no constantly ringing phone. Just me, a cup of coffee, and a calm, productive work environment. Just because some people can’t resist the lure of distractions doesn’t mean that’s the case for all of us. I have a dedicated home office, and I can get a lot done in a day at home.
divaliscious11
Yes, we are – because most of us used to be in private practice, and have an have a general idea of how much time it should take to do something depending on the level of seniority of the attorney, and whether or not they are new to our work.
Old Lawyer Lady
I’m now in house counsel to a Fortune 200 company after 15 years in Biglaw. I review atty fee bills from our outside firms all over the country. You’d be amazed to see the billing for some standard activities that we pay for over & over again. We’ll have several firms in a state bill $$ hours for a standard pleading, then there will be one firm that bills $$$$. Are they lying or just inefficient? I have to have the “inefficiency” conversation way too often. By the way, which firm do you think gets cut if volume of work decreases? The bottom line – as long as your bill is in line with other firms, I don’t care, but if it sticks out, it gets cut. (And believe me, we have computer programs that sort cost-effectiveness by billing code, and we graph performance as if your work was making widgets). It’s just business…
Lobbyist
Thats one of the reasons I did not go into BigLaw. I happen to be a super fast reader and writer. In law school I was always the first one done with tests. And then I would sit there for 30 or 40 minutes before I left being nervous and not wanting to freak everyone else out. I wasn’t at the very top of my class or anything but I was close and my work was not goign to get much better unless I had a whole day or more and time to think before going back to it. I just have to say I feel for you because I figured if I ever did bill by the hour I would be penalized for being quick. Now I have a job where I just do it and if I finish early I get to go home or read Corporette!
RR
Such a bad practice! I’ve always had the experience that I lose hours when I don’t bill daily. Because I feel like I have to underestimate to be sure I don’t overestimate. But, yes, I am sure people pad hours. I’ve never been able to say that person X billed too much on project X, but we all know that not everyone is scrupulous. And I’ve seen bills from other firms that are downright ridiculous. Really, you billed 350 hours to one matter in December? When I know I spent days in deposition with you on another case as well? Hmm?
divaliscious11
As a former BigLaw, and as in-house counsel who monthly reviews bills, can I offer some advice? Bill your time accurately – don’t low bill yourself or me. When you do that, it inaccurately reflects the work you did, and I want to pay for all your time that you spent actually working. Additionally, when you do that, you create an inaccurate expectation on my end, as in-house counsel, and so then i look to write down the bill and the ugly cycle a ruined realization rates etc… begin. I don’t mind paying for legal advice, I don’t want to pay for chit chatting in the hall.
lawyer
I do bill all my time accurately, and that seems to be the problem. It ends up being less than everyone expects it should be.
RR
Good advice. That’s what I have always been told by partners I work for. Write down the hours I spend, and it’s up to them to determine what to bill. Prior to the current economy and the 10% discounts across the board, I had a great realization rate.
I also think entering time every day is the best habit you can get into as a lawyer. That way you know you are accurate.
A
Quick fashion question for the women that have been working a few years (specifically attorneys/law clerks): I just graduated law school and I’m thinking about buying a somewhat casual (but still work-appropriate) handbag with some of my graduation $$. I have a nice formal bag that I use for interviews and meetings, but I’m looking for something a little smaller to carry in addition to a tote on a daily basis. My question: are cross-body bags too casual for the workplace? And to give a little context, I’m going to start a federal clerkship in a conservative area of the country in the fall, and then I’ll be working at a firm that is also pretty conservative in terms of attire. I like a lot of the cross-body bags that are out there now, but I’m worried that it won’t look right to carry a bag like this to work. Thanks in advance for your help — I look forward to hearing any advice you might have!!
Eponine
I don’t think cross-body bags are too casual. However, in my experience, they rub up against buttons and the friction of the strap can damage delicate fabrics. So I wouldn’t want to carry one while wearing my work clothes.
1L NYC
Congrats on the federal clerkship!
Lucy
I don’t think they are too casual. Also, unlike interviews, once you start working, purses are one of the areas where you have more expressive room, I think. Probably not lots of gold & leopard, expressive room, but expressive room nonetheless.
I would point out one other thing re: cross body bags though — besides the buttons getting in the way that Eponine mentioned, they also cut right across your chest, thereby highlighting your bosom rather much. It’s not nec. inappropriate, but depending on how conservative your area of the country/workplace will be, its something to consider (and maybe at least wear the bag differently when in office).
A
OP here — thanks for the input, these are really good points. I appreciate it!!
gem
I wear cross body bags alot. I have various medical problems which put me on and off crutches so it’s often the most practical solution for me if I don’t have a large amount to carry. No-one has ever commented and it looks perfectly professional. For what it’s worth I have two in regular use, both leather, one just a totally bland bag, one that looks (to me) a bit like a small satchel, though not enough to be comment worthy. I also have a larger bag with a cross body strap which is more casual, but I could use it as an overnight bag or to carry documents if I needed to do either of those things while on the crutches (thankfully something which hasn’t happened yet)
Mel
Hi everyone,
I need some advice. I’m studying for the bar exam this summer (my bar review class started two weeks ago) and I just received an invitation to an out of town wedding two and a half weeks before the bar exam which I would really like to attend. If I attended the wedding, I’d only go to the ceremony and reception, but I’d probably lose almost a full day of studying. Can I afford to do that so late in the game? Any bar exam studying tips for how to maximize my time now would also be helpful! Thanks!
Eponine
Yes, you’ll be fine. When you work out your final review schedule, just budget extra time on other days to make up for your days off. You’ll regret missing the wedding if you don’t go.
KM
I agree, you should go. Yes it is two weeks before the bar exam, but if you’re smart with your time management you’ll be able to enjoy yourself and still feel totally prepared on exam day. One thing that I found helpful were the PMBR cds. I listened to them in the car while studying and actually found them to be quite helpful. If you are driving to the wedding you could always study by listening to the lectures in the car on the way to and from the wedding.
SW
I don’t personally have any advice for you, as I’m starting BarBri myself on Tuesday, but I wanted to commiserate. My brother and his fiancee set their wedding date ten days before I sit for the bar exam. On the advice of the practicing attorneys I know, I will not attend. I feel horribly guilty, but it’s not like my exam date was a surprise.
I would also like to hear anyones study tips!
Cat
If it’s a big destination thing or a long way to travel for you, ok… but wow, that is a really important life moment to miss! Are you absolutely sure you can’t at least go to the ceremony? Budgeting a few hours (or even the whole evening) off will absolutely not make you fail. I’m feeling a lifetime of resentment possibly about to start…
Ties into study tips. I followed BarBri’s advice for the multiple choice, but I mostly ignored doing the essays until 2/3 of the way through BarBri because it annoyed me to only be able to answer one or two of the questions in an essay, and then to have already read the fact pattern when going back to do the others later in the course. You can absolutely budget in “break” days — in fact I highly recommend them so you don’t burn out. In fact, this wedding is at a good “break” point, a day in between the everyday study schedule and, if I remember correctly, unstructured cramming mode.
Lucy
I agree. If it’s not a major travel excursion, you should go. Same to the OP.
As for study tips, don’t spend too much time on the easy multi choice question. I dived in to the harder ones (they are graded by intensity). This is much more helpful even though you feel like you will fail each time you tally your score. I didn’t spend almost any time on my essays but that’s mainly b/c I felt like I have always done well with essays & writing. Instead, shortly before the bar, I just power crammed and did a lot of brief outlines for essays (actually — read the q., thought about it, then read the model answer, & outlined that; you will be helped most by knowing/memorizing their structure down pat than writing your own. Then, even if you don’t know what to write, you follow that structure & make stuff up if absolutely needed, and you’ll still get points). Also — concentrate first on the big multi state subjects. Don’t get bogged down in trying to understand commercial paper. Ultimately the major subjects matter more.
Last, if you’re not doing it, in addition to reg bar class, I found PMBR 3 day review very helpful — it’s much harder material than BarBri or Pieper, and doing their questions is super helpful in not feeling unprepared. The additional simulated exam was also great. I would recommend doing it somewhat close to your bar exam. Maybe early july.
Eponine
Yes, I also really liked the July PMBR 3-day. It was incredibly helpful.
SF Bay Associate
I have to make a counterpoint regarding your essay strategy, at least for my CA experience – it is important to practice doing essays even when you don’t know the topics yet because you WILL get essay questions on the bar on things you didn’t know. My year had the now infamous executive powers question, which BarBri didn’t cover all all (“never been tested in any bar exam in the history of the CA bar”). I think because I’d pretty much followed the BarBri program (in CA, BarBri has the bar down pat so just do what they tell you), I didn’t freak out at seeing yet another essay I knew nothing about.
Cat
Interesting point. Mostly, I didn’t like that strategy because BarBri does eventually cover all topics on the essays they provide (I think). So, having already read the question when items 1, 2, 3 were assigned, it meant I’d already become familiar with the fact pattern by the time BarBri assigned items 4 and 5 (or whatever) once we’d gotten to the second/third subject matters that the essay addressed… so not a realistic testing experience.
What was BarBri’s approach like for you? “Do all questions on this essay, even though we haven’t learned that yet?”
SF Bay Associate
@Cat, yep “do all the Qs even though we haven’t learned that yet.” And so I’d give it a good try, even though it was really frustrating in practice. I certainly didn’t like it, but studying for the bar was my “job” and I wanted to challenge myself as much as possible in practice so that the bar itself hurt less. Even if BarBri eventually covers all the topics (which for my bar, it didn’t), who is to say that I’m going to remember all of that when the time comes?
A BarBri mantra is when you don’t know the answer, make up the law and apply it. So I’d do that – I’d make up some factors/elements that made sense to me, and apply them to the facts. I usually didn’t spend the whole time allotted doing a practice essay when I could only do a third of it, but I’d spend time forcing myself to make stuff up under stress, throwing down all the headings, picking a side and applying my “law.” This came in *very* handy for the Bar – no matter whether I knew the law or not, I was confident I could squeeze some points out.
MelD
Wow- go to the wedding. It’s not worth skipping. One day or two in the overall scheme of things is not going to hurt you. In fact, I’d say it is good for you to get a day off to clear your head. I tried to take one day off a week while I was studying because I just got so burnt out otherwise.
E
Really? That seems tragic to me. Lets say you devote 12 hours to the rehersal dinner/reception/ceremony, or even 24. Are you saying there is absolutely no way to build that extra time in? Sometimes I’m more efficient when I put a little extra pressure on myself.
Ten years from now, are you going to regret missing your brother’s wedding? I really would encourage you to think creatively.
AN
SW – Do go to your brother’s wedding (even if you have to leave early), you and he will regret it in years to come if you don’t….
K
DITTO. You must go to your brother’s wedding, unless you hate both him and his fiancee.
Cindy
Agreed–Go to the wedding. Granted, I took the bar many years ago, but I do not think it has changed that much. I was working full time in a federal clerkship and took off only ONE WEEK to study full time. Of course, i started studying nights and weekends a couple of months before the exam and forced myself religiously to do that. If you got through law school and study reasonably hard for the exam, you will pass, and there is no reason to miss your brother’s wedding! I cannot imagine any seasoned attorney advising you to skip it.
Eponine
That is TERRIBLE advice. You will regret missing your brother’s wedding for the rest of your life. You will not regret taking one day off from bar study; even if you fail, you might regret it for a few months, but then you’ll pass on the second try and gain some perspective. Even if you have to travel for the wedding, bring all your study materials with you and only take actual wedding day off from studying.
No one fails the bar because they take one day off from study. People fail the bar because they don’t study hard enough for weeks on end, or because they don’t study in an organized manner, or because they have bad luck. Please, go to your brother’s wedding.
Shayna
Are you kidding!? It seems ridiculous that you can’t build in extra study time around the wedding, knowing it in advance!
Here’s the hard truth – you’ll change jobs, possibly leave this career to start another, buy and sell homes, lose touch with friends, but the only thing you really have in this life is your family – don’t make this mistake, because I can just about guarantee it will come back to haunt you both the next time you have something you want your brother to attend, and in your conscience.
Lynette
I totally agree with your advice. If my sis told me that she couldn’t attend my wedding because of a test, albiet a very important one, I think that I would be deeply hurt. I hoping that the other poster chooses not to hurt her brother and her future SIL in that manner.
A.
Absolutely. This kind of thing can cause ongoing friction within a family for years. There is no way the brother’s fiancee (or the brother, for that matter) is going to “understand” about her new SIL skipping the wedding – and guess what, the bride is going to be around the family for awhile, most likely. I think it is absolutely ridiculous to think someone can’t take a day or two off from studying to attend a family wedding. Blood is thicker than water.
KelliJ
What bar exam are you sitting for that you have to miss your brother’s wedding? Who would ever tell you not to take a day or two to go to your brother’s wedding? To be VERY honest…you will need a sanity break at some point. Let that break be your brother’s wedding. Add an extra hour to your daily schedule for a week or two and you’ve made up the time and then some.
CFM
Go to the wedding!!!! If it wasn’t someone close I would agree, it might be a lot of hassle, but you should absolutely go!!
RR
Go to your brother’s wedding!!! Yes, bad scheduling on their parts, but I can’t even fathom missing my brother’s wedding. Unless it’s a destination wedding, you can take a day off to go to your brother’s wedding.
No offense to all the bar studiers out there, but the bar is just the beginning of a long, busy, stressful career. If you can’t balance time now to attend your brother’s wedding, how are you going to balance your life and career?
divaliscious11
Bad decision, IMHO. What if you fail the bar anyway? Lots of people do…. If you aren’t ready for the bar 10 days out, you aren’t likely to be ready 10 days later… You will miss a huge family event for something that is not a guarantee, and worse case scenario, you can do all over again 5 months later…… I hope you don’t subsequently carry that priority schedule into your practice…its a recipe for disappointment … as the feeling will not be reciprocated when it matters….
s-p-s
I, too, had my brother schedule his wedding (halfway across the country) about ten days before the bar exam. Studied hard before, took four days for the wedding – took some materials with me, but I only reviewed about an hour a day – and passed the bar! You can do it, too :)
SUCL 3L
Definitely go to the wedding (that goes for both Mel and SW). Nearly every attorney I’ve talked to has said to just treat studying for the bar exam like a full-time job – meaning 40 hours/week, 5 days/week. Occassionally you’ll need to do extra work on the evenings and weekends, but you don’t/shouldn’t need to study every waking minute. If you really feel like you’ll be missing out on study time, try to study some extra in the morning of, don’t get wasted at the wedding, and study the next day.
If you study every single day until the bar exam and don’t let yourself have at least a little fun, you’re gonna burn out and make yourself crazy.
SUCL 3L
Now that I went back and read Mel’s post, I would moderate my answer by saying that if there’s serious travel time involved, and it’s not super close family or friends, then don’t go. But if we’re talking an hour or two away, something where you could drive in the morning of and maybe stay at a hotel the night of the wedding, then go. I can imagine, I say this as someone whose bar review classes started this week, by then I’d be ready to pull my hair out and would need something a little fun to do.
Mel
It’s about a 3 hour drive, but my date will drive so I’ll get to study in the car. We’d probably go for the weekend and I’ll study in the hotel room or public library up until Saturday afternoon while he enjoys the festivities and then head home early on Sunday. I was also worried about the change in studying scenery, but it could be nice to mix things up by that point.
SF Bay Associate
I think this depends in large part on what bar you’re taking.
I had this situation when I took the bar two years ago. My SO’s brother was getting married on July 17, with the California bar on July 29, 30, and 31. The wedding was in podunk South East US, so it would have been, at best, a cross country direct flight plus a long drive. I decided not to go, and I’m glad I didn’t. You need to evaluate yourself honestly – can you really study in the car? Will a change of scenery truly benefit you? It might for you, but for me, I couldn’t honestly say that. I knew I could do flashcards on the plane, but that’s not a practice essay environment, which is what you need to be doing most of the day that close to the bar. Plus I couldn’t go to the wedding looking like a slob, so I would need to spend some time getting ready, plus the different kind of exhaustion that comes from a long social event where you’re having fun. I knew I wouldn’t be at my best the next day for studying again, plus all the traveling home. Traveling is tiring. So, I didn’t go because for me, it would have been too much lost time/energy.
The CA bar is known as the hardest bar for a reason – they’re not kidding around. And I walked out of the bar sure that I passed, which was a really priceless feeling while my friends worried for months. I never had any doubt, even with the crazy essay that BarBri didn’t cover (since everyone takes BarBri, that meant no one knew the answer, so to me the question was a wash).
As to Lucy’s comment, the CA bar weighs all multiple choice questions equally, I believe. BarBri will tell you how your state grades the bar and what you should do.
M.
Mel & SW — I just want to add my voice to the chorus — I really think you both should go to the weddings if you want to go, and I think you can make a true break out of it (don’t study in the car and miss enjoying the fun festivities w/ you BF!). I don’t think it matters AT ALL which bar exam you are taking. Effective bar exam preparation is about the quality of your study time, not the quantity. Like many things associated with law school, there is just tons of unnecessary hysteria surrounding the bar exam. Plus — there’s just no way that going to these weddings is going to affect whether you pass the bar. Going to the weddings might even help you prepare more thoroughly — you will have the motivation to plan your time more efficiently and make the time you spend studying more effective. This is how it worked for me. I had multiple weddings of close friends in the June of the year I took the bar exam, on the opposite coast, and so I took two full weeks off. I just started studying about a week earlier than most people, and I studied intensely while I was studying. I felt thoroughly prepared, and I passed. Of course, this is assuming you guys really want to go to these weddings. You have to really want to go for the whole motivation thing to work. Good luck!!
Blonde Lawyer
I went on a cross country flight to VEGAS of all places and had a blast! I was there four days smack in the middle of bar time. BARBRI lets you make up classes online. I watched them in the hotel while my friends slept in. I stayed in one night too and did work. I also worked in the airport and on the plane from my laptop. Totally doable! You can do a lot less than what BarBri suggests and still pass. They suggest more so they can ensure more people pass and keep their pass rates high! A day or two or missed won’t kill you.
RR
Yes, go to the wedding.
I don’t feel really helpful here. I basically went to BarBri during June and then studied 4-5 hours a day in July. That’s it. I do tend to score well on standardized tests, but I can’t really wrap my head around weeks of 8-10 hour a day studying. Isn’t there a point of diminishing returns?
divaliscious11
Yes, go to the wedding. Take your materials and study and review, but while you are at the wedding/reception have an awesome time and don’t even think about the bar, except with regard to over indulging at the bar. Then jump back in and get your studying in….
There is almost nothing that you will do in ONE day that will grossly impact your sitting…except not showing up etc….
Remember the bar is, as my judge used to call it, an exercise in malpractice. No practicing attorney would ever be expected to make legal decisions outside their areas of expertise without any review, research and consultation with others. So take a deep breath, study hard, but don’t psyche yourself out.
Sara
Hi All,
Has anyone ever used the Zeno or the Dermawand? If so, have you been happy with the results? I’ve been thinking about buying one, not sure if it’s worth it. Thanks!
Lucy
I used Zeno when it first came out. It doesn’t prevent any breakouts, but it does make the pimple hurt less, if that makes sense. Generally, the pimple doesn’t go away immediately, unless its a really small one, but that pain that comes with zits sometimes does usually subside quickly.
If you’re thinking about it for emergency “i need to not have a zit” situations, I would say you’re better off finding a dermatologist & getting a cortisone shot. But if you want something that will help with the occasional stubborn pimple, it’s ok.
PS: I used zeno when it first came out & was like $300; they are somewhere around $40 for mini sticks now. I do not know if that means they work better or worse (as in improved by upgrades or hurt by price reduction). But I think for $40 its a much less expensive experiment.
Shayna
Thanks for asking this — I have adult acne (cannot even begin to describe how unfair it is to worry about zits and wrinkles at the same time!) – and have been curious about the Zeno (have not heard of the dermawand before) — the ‘hot spot’ version is on sale for $35 w/ free shipping on Amazon: http://amzn.to/9KYVyj
J
i have a hot spot, and now am thinking of getting a zeno or more of a full version hot spot. its great for the under the skin pimples, it brings them to a head more quickly, but it also makes the skin pretty dry. worth a try before you decide to buy one of the more expensive products (which i think probably would work better)
Axolotl
Suit guidance, please. I live in Los Angeles and truly don’t know anyone who wears a suit to work, except for a couple of entertainment industry agents. However, I am looking for a new job, and I understand the conventional wisdom still calls for wearing a suit to interviews. I find it difficult not to feel overly formal in suits when, in my experience, there is a 95% chance that the people interviewing me will *not* be wearing a suit. The work environments I enter tend to be a fashion-conscious business casual. Angelenos (or anyone else in less formal work environments), what is your interview outfit strategy? I certainly don’t want to be underdressed, but I also feel inappropriate when I am overly formal or overdressed. Are there certain colors/styles you choose or avoid? It would be sooo helpful if you could provide specific examples.
Miriam
Maybe you can try something versatile, like a suit in a lighter color or with a brighter shirt underneath and more interesting accessories. It would still be professional, but not too overdressed.
Axolotl
Thank you for your advice. Yes, I will definitely go with a softer/feminine blouse under the suit to make it a little more approachable. Unfortunately I haven’t found a lighter color suit that doesn’t feel dowdy to me. Have you? The best-fitting suit I’ve found for myself is black, which is also probably the most formal color. I’ve been looking for a charcoal gray (tried the JCrew stretch wool), but the fit is off.
K
Try light gray, with maybe a coral ruffly blouse, and fun shoes. Light gray feels great to me for summertime, not at all old.
Shayna
Love light gray (or any shade of gray) but ruffles? Be careful – on many women they tend to look ridiculous under a suit.
Miriam
Maybe an off-white color. Banana Republic has some plus they have a 25% off code the ends tonight! SUMMER25. I like a lighter color suit but I’m sure I would spill coffee on it or something. Plus I’m on the east coast which seems more traditional, and I don’t have much experience with work clothes because I’m only a 1L! Just finished my first year!
Angeleno
My interview suit is simple grey pants suit with a plain tee-shirt underneath, and some silver hoop earrings that are probably 3/4 inch diameter.
No fussy blouses, no pearls, sometimes I even wear flats. If you are more fashion conscious, you could probably wear a chunky necklace or whatever you like to look more like yourself.
Head to your local Macy’s/Marshall’s/Nordstrom Rack and look over their $99 suit rack. You can find something from Anne Klein, Calvin Klein, Tahari ASL, Nine West, etc that have plain 3-button jackets and very simple skirts or pants. Nothing formal or lined, but I have worn them to federal court and looked pretty much like every other woman there.
You could even check out JC Penny – they’ve got Jones New York suits for ~$50 on sale.
I don’t know what your coloring is, but brown, grey, navy, olive, black with a pinstripe, those are all totally appropriate for an interview without looking over-the-top.
GOOD LUCK at your interview!
Seventh Sister
I sometimes wear suits to work (but mostly not) and live in LA. My suggestion would be maybe a nice, non-black pantsuit and a pretty (but relatively conservative) blouse? Something like that would look serious, but not super-formal or cookie-cutter.
Personally, I think business casual can be hard to pull off. Guys seem to have an easy uniform (khakis + dress shirt = business casual). Women, on the other hand, (at least in LA) seem to run the gamut from skirts and twinsets to sweatshirts and sneakers.* I’m usually on the more formal end, because of my age/position, but there really isn’t a standard “look” for women.
*This is really more of a management issue (i.e., both having and enforcing the rules) than a fashion issue, but it still bugs me that people do it.
JAS
Hey Ladies, I just finished exams yesterday…my room is a total mess…my bag of things needing to be dry-cleaned is next to my bed and, while reading Corporette, I just dropped a full cup of coffee all over them! How much luck do you think I will have getting coffee out of a grey suit? ( the coffee had milk in it if that matters, and I’m not too worried about the navy one). Anything I should do to pre=treat it?
And…I hope some of you can commiserate and laugh at this situation.
Happy weekend!
1L NYC
I finished exams recently too! Yay! The best thing for getting out stains is Oxy Clean, but I’ve never had to use it on a suit…maybe you could google and see if it ever bleaches the material? I use the spray bottle rather than the powder, but either works.
Obviously, wash in cold water or the stain will set. If you don’t have Oxy Clean, I have also tried regular soap and/or baking soda depending on the type of stain. However, Oxy Clean has gotten out grass stains (!) for me.
SUCL 3L
If it’s the stuff you need to have dry cleaned, just take it to the dry cleaners as soon as possible. If they can get chocolate out of my khaki pants (true story), I’m sure they can get coffee out of your grey suit. Just make sure that when you drop your things off, you point out the stains so they know which pieces need special attention.
RR
I have yet to find anything my drycleaner can’t get out (usually large grease stains as I tend to drop food on myself). I’d take it to the drycleaner and give them a heads up. They will mark down what the staining is caused by, and it will all come back happy.
RR
My drycleaner even got a giant blue permanent sharpie stain out of my (nearly new, $300) trench coat. Even they didn’t think they could take care of that one – but they did.
mille
I use glycerin from the drugstore to get out ink stains. It got red ink from a broken pen out of my roommate’s khaki’s once.
K
Yes, make sure you tell them what the stains are — especially cream/dairy product stains. Good luck!
Jill
Have any of the JDs out there regretted their decision to go to law school? I graduated in 2009 and have been practicing with a small (3 attorneys total) litigation firm for the last 9 months…. only to realize that I really don’t enjoy the work. Going to court makes me nervous and I dislike confrontation. And I really do not enjoy legal research and writing briefs. I’m also sensing that there may be some personality clashes down the road with my immediate supervisor so that just makes the whole situation seem worse. I know I should have thought all of this through before joining a firm that does 99% litigation, but with the job market and student loans looming over my head, I had to take whatever job I was offered.
I also know it’s my fault for not giving enough thought before going to law school, but unfortunately it’s a little too late for that. *sigh* I feel like an idiot now because I am stuck in a career that I’m really not happy with but I don’t really have a choice because of my student loans. I always hoped that I could get the firm experience and then try to go in-house eventually, but knowing how competitive those jobs are, I’m not holding my breath.
I was just curious to hear if anyone else has been in a similar predicament.
Eponine
I hate litigation and going to court, and I found a job where I don’t have to. Look for a new job, but make sure you do your best at your current one and don’t burn any bridges. There are plenty of other options besides firms and in-house, including less traditional ones like universities (general counsel, career services, foreign student immigration, diversity, etc), nonprofit administration, consulting, etc.
CC
I was just going to mention universities, law librarians, not to mention an entirely different type of law. Hang in there, you are not totally stuck. Do your best at your job and start looking for opportunities or fields you think might interest you more.
KZ
I’m regretting it because right now, the only job I can find is basically the same job I would have had if I had immediately started working after college and just worked my way up instead of going to law school (Obviously, it’s not a law job–it makes me feel like what was the point of taking on an obscene amount of debt). But I graduated a week ago, so you know… If I actually find a law job, I’ll change my mind. I love the option I have, and it’s the field I thought I would eventually work in–I just thought I’d get there after being a lawyer for a decade or two (thank you, economy :-( ). But try changing jobs if you hate it–loans are a problem, but maybe your school’s lrap will cover something you would like more? I know my school has a very broad definition of what their loan repayment program will cover (a lot of policy work in addition to more direct legal work)
Eponine
I know this is small comfort and it seems like it might never be true for you, but speaking as an experienced lawyer, your first job is not forever, and you will find the job you want. It just will take time.
Cindy
Hi, Jill, I’ve been a litigator for about 25 years and still don’t really like confrontation! Obnoxious confrontation is not necessary to represent your clients well. The purpose of litigation is to resolve civilly and professionally the disputes in society that cannot be resolved short of litigation. I litigate with 6 macho Southern male attorneys, and I could count on one hand the times I have seen them get what I would call confrontational. It may be the litigation style of the outfit you are with that has you doubting your choices. Also, in my opinion, if you don’t get a little nervous going to court, you think too highly of yourself.
So, you might try a different firm, although I take it that in this job market that may not be a realistic option. Until you find a new job, as someone else posted, be sure to do your best, work hard, and do not express doubt about your abilities or your choices to your colleagues. Give it another year, while keeping your eye out for other opportunities.
Another option that I have seen many attorneys enjoy is “government work.” The state attorney general office, department of transportation, ethics commission, and other offices often hire attorneys who do not do litigation.While government work does not pay like private practice does, it has private practice beat hands down on stress, hours, vacations, sometimes health and retirement benefits.
Finally, there are many times I’ve doubted my choice, primarily due to the stress of the job and the lack of control over my schedule caused by litigation, but I have not found anything better, and most of the time, I enjoy my work–plaintiff’s work, not hourly billing. If you are really unhappy, don’t be afraid to look at other options: you are obviously intelligent to have gone through law school, you can find other law-related jobs not in litigation. You do not want to look back in 25 years and think how miserable your career has been!
divaliscious11
Well, you aren’t stuck. Have you tried to move into a transactional practice? And if you don’t like that, the skills you learned in law school, i.e… critical thinking and analysis and problem solving are transferable the only concern I’d have is whether I can generate enough income to pay for the JD…
divaliscious11
Well, you aren’t stuck. Have you tried to move into a transactional practice? And if you don’t like that, the skills you learned in law school, i.e… critical thinking and analysis and problem solving are transferable the only concern I’d have is whether I can generate enough income to pay for the JD…
divaliscious11
Well, you aren’t stuck. Have you tried to move into a transactional practice? And if you don’t like that, the skills you learned in law school, i.e… critical thinking and analysis and problem solving are transferable the only concern I’d have is whether I can generate enough income to pay for the JD…
divaliscious11
sorry…computer glitch!
KelliJ
Jill,
Don’t give up on the law just because you don’t like litigation. Sometimes it’s easier to know what you don’t want to do than what you want to do, but there are so many fields of law to choose from. Before law school I worked doing real estate closings and I knew I wasn’t going to be doing that for the rest of my career. I also always knew that I wouldn’t be a litigator. I don’t have that “fire in the belly” so to speak. I didn’t even take trial practice or evidence in law school. I went into intellectual property and couldn’t be happier. (I always tell people that I wouldn’t be a lawyer if I couldn’t do IP.) What classes did you like in law school? May be that could lead you in a new direction.
Don’t ever think your stuck because you started in one place. Better to know early on and do something to change it then be miserable for years. That’s how people stay in jobs that turn into careers that they really don’t like. In fact, I was just on the phone a few days ago with an attorney with 20 years experience who hated his work.
This might sound off the wall (and I’ll probably get some criticism) but have you ever considered a solo transactional practice? Check out Solo Practice University.
RR
I love litigation, but lots of people don’t. You are just starting out your career, and there is no reason you have to spend years doing something you hate. It’s time to start considering what aspects of law you DO like and figure out another job at another place that will work better for you.
amber
Feel the exact same way. I’m really regretting law school. I have student loans I’m struggling to pay and make less than all my friends, some who didn’t even go to college. It’s embarassing that I’m the broke one. I feel like I’m burdening my fiance with my debt. When it comes time to buy a new house in a few years, I can’t contribute much if anything. Not to mention my student loan limiting what we can borrow. It’s frustrating to work 50-60 hours a week in a small firm and have nothing to show for it. I keep telling myself that I just need experience and things will improve, but with supply exceeding demand, will there be any opportunities once I have the experience?
I hate going to court. I have horrible anxiety and nervousness since I feel like I have no idea what I’m doing. Clients ask me questions and I don’t have answers. I’m sure it will get better with time as I become more comfortable. My bosses want me to do more and more trial work and I feel like I never will be an amazing let alone decent trial attorney. But I’m here to take the burden off them, so if they need me to cover something, I have to do it. I have no life during the week since things arise at the last moment and who knows what time I will get home. I have been lucky that I don’t have to work weekends. I’ve taken work home twice in the past several months and it was only a few hours of work.
I tell so many people not to go to law school. I was warned too but didn’t listen. It wouldn’t be so bad without the loans, but I feel like I’ve created a life I’m not enjoying. Work, work, work, and making less than many paralegals make in the area. Depressing.
RR
It does get better. As a young associate, you feel like an idiot multiple times a day – if not all day! As a mid-level associate, you only feel like an idiot once a day or so. As a senior associate/young partner, you sometimes get to go weeks without feeling like you have no idea what you are doing. We all go through this. Law school does not prepare you to practice law. Practicing law prepares you to practice law. It does get better.
anon - chi
Ha – well said. Feeling like an idiot all day every day can take a toll on you, but it’s good to keep in mind that everyone else felt the same way when they started, and that it does get better with time.
divaliscious11
Amber-
I am sory you are so down about your job choice, but ask yourself is it your job, or is it life not matching up with you expectations of where you’d be financially after going to law school. Two options, hang in there, re-focus on learning as much as you can, or start exploring what else you’d like to do and figure out how to get there. Most of us will spend way too much time at work for it to be someplace you don’t want to be. If its any consolation, most attorneys feel some version of what you’re feeling when first starting out. I think I’d been practicing for about 6 years before it really sunk in that I was good at my job. good reviews etc.. don’t really do it…its a self realization and it takes time to get there. I remember feeling guilty when I got my first paycheck, and I don’t think I unpacked my stuff in my office for a few weeks waiting for them to come say, there has been a mistake, we thought you knew something about the law…lol.
You have to own your career, though, so look closely at what you aren’t liking. Is it going to court? What makes you apprehensive? Is it something you can work on? Can you see if your local bar association has a young lawyers division with a litigation group? They often do workshops on very specific aspects of trial work. Is there part of the job you enjoy? Can you try to get more work in that space? There are lots of ways to look at a situation and find some value for yourself personally as well as professionally.
amber
Thanks to everyone for the encouraging comments and advice!
ChickintheStix
Eight-year litigator here. Year one was hell: looking up everything, trying to figure out obscure local rules, the unwritten rules, navigating co-counsel waters, etc. And, discovery! It hurts just to think about it.
The often-concealed secret is that litigation itself is formulaic. The substance surrounding litigation may change (medicine, property, employment, etc), but the rest of it’s pretty predictable. And, I learned, enjoyable as a result. So, consider firm fit before you bail on litigation. Firm culture, as well as immersing yourself in all the new lawyer divisions of the litigation associations, may make all the difference.
Good luck to you!
PurpleViolet
I am wondering if those who regret law school went directly from college without a break? My plans were for grad school in mental health (social work or psychology) until I ended up working for three years as a counselor in the criminal justice system. I knew I loved the field of criminal justice when I applied to law school, AND that I would not make alot of money. No regrets here after 15 years of public defender work. My advice to anyone is tht they need to work a few years before getting that advanced degree.
R
Why did you go to law school? Think back to what motivated you to attend law school and what you used to be passionate about. Pursue that route.
ST
There is a 60+ year man who just so happens to be one the most interesting people in my office. When I first started 4 years go, I really made no effort to befriend him. About 2 years ago, the only other gentleman in our group near that age retired. He seemed so lonely at work after that, so I went out of my way to speak to him a few times a week. I have very little in common with him, but we can always talk about the weather, news, latest impacts on the industry (we are engineers), and the big game involving the local team. Those 35 years he has on me has supplied him with a wealth of knowledge, including the good dirt on everyone. It just took a little extra effort and a positive attitude to hit it off with him.
A.
That is a great story. All career-focus aside, that is a benevolent act that will come back to you tenfold somehow. :)
Errovaenlarry
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