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Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
NYC is muggy and disgusting right now — meaning the only thing we can imagine wearing this weekend is, of course, a dress. We like this BCBG number from the Saks sale going on right now — the Escher-esque print reminds us of our favorite poster in college, and we can add it to our collection of little black summer dresses. Was $158, now $63 (lucky size L only). Op-Art Jersey Dress
Anon
Question for you career ladies. And as a disclaimer, I will add that I am not a lawyer, but a regular corporate type.
Yesterday my boss asked me to take a look at an online job posting for a new hire to our team. When looking at the posting, I saw that the experience was in line with mine, but the pay range was listed at 10-20% more than what I make.
I didn’t say anything to my boss, because I wasn’t entirely sure how to bring this up and be taken seriously, and not just like someone who is whining about needing a raise. However, I have an already scheduled career planning session next week and I know this will be on my mind.
I need advice, should I bring this up, let it go, find a new job? How do I bring up a topic like this? Thanks!
Erin
BRING IT UP!
I got a raise basically the same way once – I noticed my salary was toward the low end of the range for new hires for a job being posted at my level. I was overdue for a raise anyway, and I pointed this out to my boss and he immediately put in for a raise to put me beyond the new-hire level (since I had a couple years’ experience at my level). A fair wage isn’t just going to fall into your lap – you have to ask for it. If you’re a Corporette you probably aren’t a shrinking violet about the rest of your life, so why should you be shy about asking your company to give you what you’re worth?
RR
Agreed. Ask for a raise to put you slightly above the posting for a new employee.
SF Bay Associate
Yes, agreed. Bring it up. It’s not that you’re “whining about needing a raise.” You are pointing out that you *earned* a raise. Whether you need it is completely beside the point.
I seem to remember The Thin Pink Line blog discussing this at some point. There may be specific language tips in there. The bibliography in Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office will also have helpful literature.
Shayna
Agree — if you ask, the worst is that they say no — which will cement for you whether you have the opportunity to move up or not. Not knowing is the worst.
OP Here
Thanks everyone. I was concerned that bringing it up while I was reading through the job req would be inappropriate (or sound whiny) and not being taken seriously. The non-shrinking violet in me wanted to immediately say to my boss, “Question for you – Why is this job being listed at 10-20% more than I make?”
For the record, I asked and received a raise not too long ago, and my boss said he is aware I am on the low end of pay for the job. However, apparently they cap raises at 10% (so he told me with an apology) and even though it was nice, I was hoping for a lot more.
I have worked with the company for several years and this was the ONLY time I was successful negotiating a raise. All the other times I have mentioned it (including negotiating my starting salary) I couldn’t get more than 2-4% for cost of living. The reasons cited were budget constraints and I was assured I am not the only one not getting huge raises. Because of this, well, I am sort of at a loss and thinking of moving on from the company.
Erin
I probably agree that you were right not to bring it up while on the phone with him – it’s better to think what you’re going to say a bit. But it’s also unacceptable for your company to pay a new, inexperienced hire at your level more than you make with a few years’ experience. Ask him to set aside time to talk and bring it up with him, letting him know that you are committed to the company but question whether they value you if they’re paying new people more than they pay you. Point out to him why you’re of value to the company. If he keeps going back to the 10% thing, ask him who has the authority to override that and let him know you plan to appeal to that person (don’t go over his head – either get him to appeal on your behalf, or do it with his full knowledge and support). And frankly, if they don’t find a way to give you a raise, I think you should start looking for a new job.
Eva
No tips on exactly the right words to use, but yes, you absolutely should bring it up. No doubt in my mind.
jojo
Your boss *asked* you to look at the posting, right? It is NOT whining to bring it up. Sometimes with raises, like many things, if you don’t ask for it, you won’t get it.
Bring it up. The sooner, the better.
Anonymous
Borrowing an idea from another poster on another thread and going anonymous for this one. One time, when I said something, after about two years, to my boss about how “well, I need to make more, and I’m a businesswoman so I need to point that out to you,” he sort of nodded his head and said “that’s right, you are a businesswoman, so I’m glad you’ve started acting like one.” Some (many?) bosses will sit back and wait for their female (and perhaps, for all I know, male) employees to raise the salary issue, for two reasons I’d imagine: (1) if they can get away with underpaying the employee, all the better for them and their bottom line and; (2) they almost want to test you to see if you will have the guts/nerve/smarts to (a) know what you are worth but then (b) insist upon making it. They need to know this information if they are employing you to conduct business, or to represent businesses’ interests.
OP Here
Yes, I was asked while on the phone with him to take a look at the link.
OP Here
Great points Anon!
KelliJ
Absolutely bring it up! This very subject has been the topic of so many Women in Business blogs lately, women not asking for raises because they don’t want to be seen as whiners. Here is a link to Pink Magazine’s article, “How Do You Get What You Want?” about 27 ways to get a raise. Good luck!
http://www.pinkmagazine.com/career/development/get_raise.html
Little Lurker
This was really helpful, and thought-provoking.
Thank you!
OP Here
Yes, very helpful, thank you all!
anon
I love Pink magazine. You just reminded me that I let my subscription lapse, must correct immediately!
Anonymous
Good thoughts on negotiating (and empowerment in general). This weekend’s discussions are making me think more about my own situation, which has been nagging me for a while now. I am a technical professional managing a stand-alone functional area who was promoted to my current level more than four years ago. I’ve brought significant improvements to my group since taking over and my annual reviews have been consistently been in the above average to outstanding category.
Since my promotion, a number of my colleagues have been promoted to the same level. A large majority of them don’t have responsibility for running a stand-alone group, but instead are sort of “second in command” for their bosses. In some way I think many of these promotions were really a mechanism to designate the succession plan rather than to acknowledge specific achievements or roles.
I’ve had a hard time trying to bring up the question of getting a promotion to my boss, though I feel that I am ready, or at least near-ready, to be considered for the next level. There’s been a lot of angst in our department over the past year about the long-term focus of the company, though fortunately the talk is of internal re-orgs rather than layoffs. Because my boss is concerned about maintaining – or improving – his own place in the organization, my concerns about where I’m going to even end up usually get deflected in discussions about where he thinks the department should go long-term, which is of course in a direction that would benefit him, and what I can do that would help that along. (He’s not a bad guy, in fact really the opposite, but he has his own concerns to manage.) Potentially my group will be combined with another group, which may somewhat reduce the scope of my role to something more like that of my current peers. Also the next level above me is considered a senior leadership role and currently everyone at that level reports to the department VP, so in some ways it feels like an almost unbreakable barrier (I know I won’t be reporting to the VP no matter what the new org structure looks like).
I am hesitant about going over my boss to discuss things with the department head, though, and I’m wondering if I’m being too “nice” in my concern about doing so (particularly since I’m finding it difficult to figure out how to get my own concerns out in the open to the VP without acknowledging that I can’t get through to my boss). With two things in play – the VP is really making the decisions on the re-org, but my boss should be the one to say I’m ready for promotion – I’m really not sure which aspect to tackle. To be fair, I haven’t directly asked my boss about what I need to do to reach the next level, because every time I try to do it (probably too indirectly) we end up in the same conversation.
In general I like my company, but it’s really gotten to the point where I’m considering looking for another job, which I realize is probably a bit extreme. (Maybe just the easiest way I can think about trying to negotiate?) As I’m writing this all out, I’m thinking that my best course of action is to really be very open with my boss, but I wonder if anyone has other thoughts?
Erin
Don’t go over your boss’s head. Ask your boss to set aside time to meet with you, rather than surprising him. When you meet, tell him that you’ve been in your current position with your responsibility level for 4 years, that recently others have been promoted to the same job title but without the same level of responsibility, and that you’d like a new job title that reflects your responsibilty level and a raise to a salary that reflects your tenure and responsibilities.
The worst he can say is that it’s not possible, in which case ask him who would have the authority to make those changes and ask him to speak to that person on your behalf. If he says no, ask him why not. He might have good reasons, for instance, it might just not be a good time and you should bring it up again in a month. If you think he’s being unreasonable, though, tell him that you’re considering going to the person who does have the authority to make changes yourself. Don’t threaten to walk out or get a new job, though, unless you mean it.
Sweet Pea
I’m loving the maxi dress trend, are they a yay or a nay for the Corporette?
RR
Yay for casual wear (which I’m assuming is what you are asking for) if they work with your body type. Although I’ve seen even petite women pull off the right maxi dress. I like them and say they are a yay.
Erin
It all depends on the dress itself. I think a maxi dress can be a lovely, polished casual look, or it can be the dress version of sweatpants. I see a lot of women wearing jersey, strapless maxi dresses and they tend to slide down and reveal their bras. But if you’re wearing one that actually stays up and you’re wearing it with real sandals and not rubber flipflops, I think it’s fine.
Shayna
This is true – so many maxi dresses can double as swimsuit coverups (or perhap that ws the original intention?) … but one with real straps, with a bit of tailoring and nice sandals and you have a flattering summer look.
LMo
Not a fan, even for casual wear. I think they’re unflattering.
anon
I totally agree. I don’t know who they actually flatter
Eva
Hate them for me, think they’re cute on the right body type (not for the office, of course).
Jennifer
I say yea, because I think they can be flattering, but I can never find any that are long enough to be truly maxi (except for Rachel Palley’s maxi caftan-style dresses – which are so flattering on me and definitely long enough, but I can never find them on sale). I have a really cute Sweet Pea one that I’ll wear on occasion, but it’s a very awkward length – hitting about an inch above my ankle. The strapless jersey ones with the smocked tops, unless they’re masterfully styled, always look like the dress equivalent of sweatpants. The terry ones are even worse.
Jennifer
And I think this goes with out saying, BUT, they are pretty inappropriate for the office.
KelliJ
Love the idea, but have decided I’m not a fan. Other than in magazines I have yet to see anyone in real life pull one off and look nice. Everyone I’ve seen looks like they’ve just come from the beach or pool, i.e., wearing flip flops, messy updo hair, bra usually showing.
SR
I brought two on a Caribbean vacation and also live in Texas so I wear them to casual outdoor pool parties (or patio). They do get really warm though so I tend to wear them mostly in the evening. The one I bought on super sale at Macy’s (fuschia and tribal print) was perfect for my cousin’s wedding on the beach and I didn’t have to worry about a shorter dress flying up in the ocean breeze.
SR
Should add I’m 5’7″, very curvy, and they reach my feet if I wear dressy flat sandals. I don’t think the ones that are ankle length are as flattering as the floor length ones. Got tons of compliments and many woman at the wedding was wearing them (and the guests were from England, Denmark, Germany, Trinidad, etc. so seems to be a global trend now).
AIMS
This discussion is making me nervous b/c I LOVE maxidresses & even though I am fairly short (5’4) I think they’re very flattering on — but then I keep hearing women say that they’re hard to pull off & I wonder if I am walking around as a giant fashion don’t….
Oh, well. I love them. I think I have some gorgeous ones . . . always wore them . . . and I highly recommend them. Nothing is as nice on a hot summer day & you dont need to worry that you shaved your legs or got bit by mosquittos or whatever else gives us anxiety :)
SR
AIMS – I completely agree and they are really easy to throw on with some pretty earrings and sandals and just go! I say if you feel great in them, why not?
MelD
My sister is tall and thin and looks great in hers. I haven’t bothered to try them yet since anything that looks great on her looks awful on me and vice versa.
Shayna
I asked in an earlier thread, but only got a couple responses, so am reposting:
I am expecting a job offer in the next few days and need some negotiating tips — I’m not sure what the salary offered will be, but I know that the vacation is excellent (5 weeks) as are the benefits (yay universities) — It pays 1/month though, and I suspect that due to a required payment to my current company of tuition reimbursements, I will miss my last paycheck here — is it tacky to ask for a signing bonus? Any other negotiating tips?
Thanks!!
Anon
In this economy, I would not ask for a signing bonus.
I’m confused as to how you didn’t know the salary before you interviewed (and seemingly will certainly be offered) the job? Is this standard for your industry? I’ve always known the numbers going into any interview, even a first-round.
Shayna
There’s a range posted – but it has a $40K + swing that covers “couldn’
t pay the mortgage with this” to “would LOVE this salary” — I’ve interviewed A LOT in my life (like over 100 interviews if I had to ballpark) and almost all have asked current salary/expectations… you know, the dance, but university jobs are different – similar to government in many ways.
RR
I don’t think it’s tacky to ask for a signing bonus, especially if you have a reason: “Due to the pay structure at my current job, I am looking at 2 months with no paycheck if I accept this job. Would you do a $____ signing bonus in order to defer the burden on me financially in accepting this job?” Worst they are likely to say is no. As far as salary, I’d ask for 5% more than they offer at least. Maybe 10-15% depending upon where you are in the pay scale and how in line the offer is with your expectations. Even without a researched explanation, you could say, “Thank you for the offer. I was really hoping for $_________. Are you able to come up on your offer?” Again, worst they can say is no.
I think asking straight out is best. Be polite. Be confident and sure that you are worth what you are asking. Women shoot themselves in the foot with negotiations by being apologetic in attitude or words or by justifying their request too much or trying to be a nice girl. Men just ask. If you have something to back up your request, great, but I’d ask regardless. I know you aren’t a lawyer, but for me, I figure I’m a pretty crap lawyer if I can’t even negotiate for myself!
Shayna
Thanks! I’m a finance chick, and even though I know that women shoot themselves in the foot like you said, I still have to take a couple deep breaths and mentally rehearse — hence my request for help – I really appreciate your wording as well!!
RR
No problem. Trust me – I feel like a little girl begging Daddy for allowance too. But I make myself do it even if it makes me uncomfortable. No way am I making $10K less than a male associate just because he asked and I didn’t! Hell no! :)
Shayna
Exactly! It makes me uncomfortable as hell (my mother taught me that you don’t discuss money… of course as a teacher she’s also never had to negotiate), but damned if I’m going to make less than a man would – I work hard, and I’m worth it (or so I repeat to myself as I practice negotiating)
Shayna
Follow up question – when it comes to a signing bonus, do I ask for that first or after the increase in salary? I want to make sure I do this right – and not sound ridiculous… Thank you!
Erin
@Shayna – when you get the offer, ask to think about it. The next day, call and ask them for more than you want. Whether or not you ask for the signing bonus right away is a matter of strategy – you might want to ask for everything at once, or you might want to hold back one request so that if they refuse your salary increase you can ask for the signing bonus then. Personally I’d ask for everything at once.
MJ
We learned in b-school that you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ask for a higher base rather than a higher signing bonus. The signing bonus is a one-off, and the base is what ALL of your future raises will be based off of. Keep this in mind.
Even if you have a ST cash flow issue, it might be worth it to skew the structure more toward base increase/higher base in the first place, if you plan to stay for a few years.
Shayna
Thanks! I agree — higher base is most important – Thank you very much! (I feel like I’m a teenager waiting for a guy to ask me out all over again… ugh!)
Ru
This is great advice – I wish I had asked when I first started. Then again, they offered me 10k more than I was expecting them to offer, so I was over the moon about the offer (goverment position).
KH
Disagree with the strategy of explaining why you want the signing bones and agree it would be better in the long run to build your base. If you do ask for a signing bonus, I’d give a reason other than your cash flow issue. As an employer, it would make me wonder how well you manage your own finances and cast a cloud on you.
Shayna
What if I explained it was due to the tuition reimbursement agreement for my MBA? Still not good?
anon - chi
I think if it’s related to tuition reimbursement, the new employer should not have any negative feelings about how you manage your finances. It would be different if it were just a matter of foregoing a single paycheck, but the employer doesn’t know (or need to know) how much you would be expected to pay back, and I don’t think that reflects poorly on you.
Experienced
Excellent advice, RR. I’m in sales and that’s how I’d ask as well. Men do simply ask -and they move on. Shayna, only thing I would add to RR’s advice is to practice practice practice. Get comfortable with the ask. Good luck!
Shayna
Been practicing on very patient friends today — thanks for the advice! In grad school I took a management class that required a lot of self analysis – I was a “high functioning neurotic” on one of the scales… basically, I freak out a lot about some things but I do them anyway bc I want the end result! :-)
Experienced
BTW -there is an excellent, an older article in the Harvard Business Review titled, “Nice Girls Don’t Ask” from October 2003 (I still keep a copy in a file! ). I recommend it.
Erin
They’ll offer you a salary and tell you if it’s not negotiable. If they don’t say otherwise, assume it’s negotiable. I’d ask for 10-20% higher than they offer, and you should assume you’ll get no more than 50% of what you ask for – so if they offer you 50K, and you need to make 55K, ask for at least 60K. Keep in mind as you negotiate that you need to base your arguments on what you are worth to the company, not on what you need to make to pay your bills.
In the case that you will miss your last paycheck at your current job, I think it’s fair to ask for an advance on your salary, although again, you need to focus your request on what you are worth to the company, not on what you need to pay your bills. Unfortunately, I think signing bonuses have gone the way of the dodo – it can’t hurt to ask, but you’re more likely to be successful requesting an advance. You could ask for a signing bonus and, if/when they say no, then ask for an advance.
Erin
Also, if you are the type to get nervous in negotiations – keep in mind that you have an offer and they will not withdraw it. The worst that will happen is that they won’t raise the salary. So, you can’t really lose anything here – no reason to be nervous.
Shayna
Thanks! Great tips — and I realize that it’s all about how much they value me (or don’t) … but figuring out the $ amount is hard. I never would have asked for 20% until I read these comments — Thank you for giving me some courage! (I’m still kicking myself for not negotiating on my first job… I believe I have made up for it since, but still…)
Erin
Most women (maybe most men too) don’t ask for enough. It’s highly unlikely you’ll get what you ask for, so you should ask for more and be prepared to come down. If they immediately agree to what you asked for, it probably means you asked for less than they were prepared to give you. Just keep the negotiations focused on what you’re worth to the company, rather than what you need to pay your bills.
Lizbet
A wise friend and I were discussing the fact that we women tend to set our expectations far too low in salary discussions. Her guideline was, “If what you’re asking for doesn’t make your stomach hurt, you’re not asking for enough.” I’ve found this to be very true — and very successful.
MelD
I think there is less flexibility in a university system to ask for signing bonuses or even increase the salary much. It’s much more like working for a state government where you’re likely to be paid close to the minimum salary posted than working in the private sector where there is a lot of wiggle room. I’m not saying it’s not appropriate to ask, but I wouldn’t get angry/frustrated if I got turned down. I have one friend who has been working for a university for about 10 years now and there were salary freezes across the board for years. As a result, new people ended up getting hired with higher salaries than people who had started a few years before.
Shayna
In a lot of ways it’s a relief to know what the range is – that it’s an official range not a “here’s what we think we can get away with paying you” range… but yes, as a result I know that may be more rigid…
KelliJ
Hi Shayna.
I just suggested this article from Pink Magazine to a post above.
http://www.pinkmagazine.com/career/development/get_raise.html
I’m a fan of Pink Magazine. Check out their website. They have lots of great article on topics like this (and so many others for women in business.)
Good luck!
Shayna
Thanks!
Follow up question (to all) – I get the offer, I then try to negotiate salary? signing bonus? … in which order? And how do I not sound money grubbing? Thanks!!
Lizbet
Think of three possible scenarios that would help you out. Start out by asking for the biggest/most useful to you. Let’s assume it’s the higher base salary. If they say no, say that you’ll need to think about it but that you really want to work with them, you love them so much, etc. Call back the next day and say that you realize they face constraints in what they can offer, and you’re hoping that with some creative problem-solving, you can make this work. Then offer up scenario #2, (let’s assume it’s the signing bonus). If that doesn’t work, offer the advance idea. Hope this helps!
Shayna
Thanks! I really appreciate the scenarios (being able to envision the different conversations is definitely helpful!)
lawDJ
Do we think that T-strap heels look good with skirts? I’m wearing a black pencil skirt with black t-strap 2″ heels and now I’m thinking the combination makes my legs look shorter (I’m pretty short as it is) …
Amber
I think they always tend to make one’s leg look shorter because it cuts off the line. I really like the look of some of them, but I don’t ever wear t-strap shoes because I think they make my legs look shorter and I think they make my ankles look fat.
A
I heard on TLC’s “What Not To Wear” that shoes with a strap across the ankle make your legs look shorter because they cut off rather than elongate the line from your leg through your foot. Since then, I’ve definitely noticed that T-strap heels and other shoes with ankle straps make my legs look shorter.
K3L
Sadly, I don’t like the look. I think any strap at the ankle shortens the line of the leg. The best hope I have for even a Mary Jane is one that’s pretty close to my toe cleavage (which yes, I understand some here hate, but you understand the positioning). I’d like to hear what others have to say.
lawDJ
That’s what I thought :( Now that I own these t-straps, I guess they’ll be relegated to wear with pants? How sad.
Anon
You like them? Then wear them!
zee
Not necessarily – you can wear them with a shorter skirt (making up some of the difference) on weekends or something.
AN
I have seen women wear t straps + skirts that hit at or just above knee. I think if you have shapely legs and slim ankles (latter being key) you can pull it off.
“Cankles” do not look good with t straps, no matter how slim your legs….
MelD
I typically try to wear my mary janes with higher waisted skirts or belted dresses since it helps to elongate the look of my legs. I have a longer torso, so tucking in anything that falls below my natural waist tends to make my legs look really stubby.
Erin
Wear them if you like them! Yeah, they cut you off at the ankle, but unless you’re a dancer or model or something, who cares. It’s not like you’re trying to make your legs look long and svelte in the office anyway.
eplawyer
I love wearing my t-straps with skirts. I don’t know if they make my legs look shorter, but I feel sexier (without being inappropriately dressed). I’ve even worn them to court. If you enjoy the shoes, wear them. Your enjoyment will show and make them look better.
Experienced
I wouldn’ t wear them for work, but then I’m of the opinon that a lot of the shoes out there right now are really for women in a different line of work.
Bonnie
I wear t-strap heels in the winter when I’m wearing tights. That way, there is no dramatic break between the shoes and the skirt. I’d stay away from them in the summertime though.
eplawyer
This week I had to make a jail visit. I wore a longer skirt, but it was pale yellow. I did something I have not done in a long time, I wore a slip under it. Haven’t worn this skirt in ages because I just lost enough weight to fit into it again. Anyway, I always hated wearing slips because to me it was just another layer of clothes to put on. And in the summer, that can be too much. But, the other day, I fell in love. The skirt actually felt better to wear. It also looked smoother and hung better. This prompted to realize I need to wear slips again.
So, any suggestions on where I can find good quality, inexpensive slips. Do they make them out of anything that is not polyester? I mean what is the point of wearing cotton or linen if you just stick a polyester, non-breathing slip under it? Or am I taking my hatred of poylester too far?
Thanks as always for your help. Thanks to Corporette and all ya’all, I look much more pulled together these days.
Little Lurker
They make them out of silk too, and those are fabulous (handwash!).
Wish I could tell you where to buy them — I have inherited my mother’s shape when it comes to our lower halves, and I have thus, er, *appropriated* some of her slips.
Erin
Vermont Country Store usually has cotton ones – I’d also try herroom, barenecessities, figleaves, etc. Amazon is also usually a good place to look for thing like this.
alex
Does cotton have the same “slippery” effect though? I always use slips to keep dresses/skirts from clinging…
Erin
Well, having an extra layer helps with clinging, but it’s more along the lines of having a cami underneath a blouse. It doesn’t make the dress hang or flow differently.
AnneCatherine
Def. Vermont Country Store for cotton ones (which, however, won’t make your clothes hang as smoothly over them as poly or silk ones will). Josie Natori makes, or made, silk ones. Believe it or not, I bought a silk half-slip at Victoria’s Secret in the early 2000s. Maybe they still sell them, and not just sweatpants with the word “pink” on the rear end, who knows? I also got a silk one at Saks about five years ago. They are sort of all over, when you start looking.
ES
I spent two years wearing slips with skirts daily (cultural dress code in another country) in a tropical climate, and I actually grew to prefer the polyester ones to the cotton – the cotton just bunched up under what was often a slip-like extra layer of fabric in the skirt and I would spend the whole day trying to readjust the skirt. The Vanity Fair polyester slips at Macy’s and the like were my favorite because they came in every length imaginable and were incredibly durable without being too hot. That being said, I’m sure I would have loved silk – but not in the budget at the time!
KelliJ
OMG, a slip conversation. I was just thinking of posting a message about wearing slips when it’s hot. Last week, I went to a conference that was held outdoors under a tent. It was close to 90 degrees. I wore a half-slip under my dress and I have to say I’m so glad I did. The slip clung to my legs after sitting down listening to the speakers but when I stood up, the dress looked perfect, no clinging, wrinkle free. A couple of strides and the slip fell back in place. Better the slip clinging than the dress.
I probably bought it at Macy’s years ago.
eplawyer
Thanks ladies. It was nice to hear that slips do make a difference and polyester is actually good. Wish I could afford silk. However, I fear even if I could, I am too frugal — oh heck, cheap — to spend that kind of money on a slip.
divaliscious11
Target or JC Penney’s
KH
Yes – Target, JCPenney, Steinmart, TJ Maxx – all have inexpensive ones, and TJMaxx often has nice ones.
Erin
I always wear polyester/nylon ones and have no problem. They don’t make me too hot. Vanity Fair brand at Macy’s or JC Penney’s is fine, or try Filene’s.
Experienced
Target actually seems to have a nice selection. I was just there and thinking, “gee, maybe I should really be wearing a slip” (which begs the question…if you have to ask…).
Ru
I actually found some at Daffy’s the other day – I’m always on the look-out for different colored slips.
Curious
Please take this question in the ignorant-but-sincere way it is meant!
I am a 20-something interested in non-profit administration, and I’m wondering about how best to pursue such a career.
For the Corporettes with MBAs — would there be any reason for me to apply to such a program? What are the benefits and drawbacks of such a decision?
I suppose, in essence, I’m asking — what is the value of your degree? I don’t discount the importance of networking through a classroom setting (that is how all performance arts degreeholders survive), but I am not interested in making inroads in the strictly corporate world so much as learning how to manage and negotiate. Could I learn such things on my own, through books and websites like Corporette and the PINK website mentioned above? I have had a marketing internship at a non-profit that I found extremely valuable and I intend to apply for similar positions before I make any more school decisions.
I know that there are degree-granting programs for non-profit administration, but I have heard (and tend to believe) that the best way to get ahead in the non-profit work is to just DO IT and get degrees after you’ve established yourself. Does this apply to the MBA as well?
Any advice or resources you have will be much appreciated!
Chicago K
OK, for some reason my reply didn’t attach to your question. Please see my very long response below!
Nonprofit Employee
Posting this response anonymously but I’m a regular poster.
I’ve worked in a nonprofit for years, as an attorney, not a manager, but I know the market. What matters more than anything is dedication to the particular area in which the nonprofit works. A lot of our employees worked for free, even after earning their advanced degree, as interns or volunteers. You need to have a track record showing dedication to the issues, or if you don’t have one, you need to build one up.
The second thing to consider is exactly what you want to do. I assume you’re not a lawyer. Probably the biggest area within a nonprofit is program administration – writing proposals, writing reports on programs, managing all the day-to-day need of a program, but not doing the substantive work on the program itself. To work in program administration, you’d probably start as an associate or administrative assistant and work up. It’s hard to get hired at a mid- or upper-level position without having had program administration experience already. Substantive work is carried out by professional staff – by social workers at a counseling center, doctors at a health clinic, development experts, etc. Grant management is another big area – grant managers are almost always accountants. Every nonprofit needs a business manager and HR person, as well, and probably some general finance staff and a PR person.
You also need to consider what type of nonprofit you want to target. There are a lot of differences between big and small ones, and international, national and local ones. A lot of people start at a small place and move up to bigger ones over time. Big, prestigious, well-funded nonprofits tend to be just as competitive as prestigious private sector employers. On the other hand, smaller nonprofits tend to not always have consistent funding, and hiring can be competitive there because there are fewer positions available, and you might not have good benefits or job security. When you are considering where to apply, look at the nonprofit’s sources of funding – is it government funded, does it have an endowment, is it the charitable arm of a big organization, or is it dependent on donations? These considerations will affect your job security, salary and benefits, as well as the nonprofit’s independence and mission. I work for a big, international nonprofit with funding from diverse sources, and my salary and benefits are as good as a government or university employee’s but I have much more independence and room to grow. But my friends at small nonprofits have been laid off, furloughed or had salary cuts, and poor management is an epidemic at smaller and newer nonprofits, too.
Anyway, I haven’t really gotten to your question. I don’t think an MBA will help at all. In fact, I don’t know a single nonprofit employee with a traditional MBA. An MNA (master’s in nonprofit admin) may be helpful; I know a few people with this degree and it definitely seems to have benefited them. I’d probably get it at night while working if possible, though. Honestly, most of the management/finance people I know have no advanced degree and just worked their way up. An accounting, communications or marketing degree would be useful if you’re interested in grant management or PR/outreach. An HR degree of some sort would also be useful. If you are interested in program administration, a degree related to the substance of the nonprofit’s work will be more useful than a business degree. This also surprises some people, but prestigious nonprofits tend to be just as picky about what schools they recruit at as for-profit employers do, so if you do go back to school try to go to a top one.
So, overall, my advice to you would be to get a job or a substantial volunteer position at a nonprofit in the area you’re passionate about. Pick the area you want to specialize in, and either work 2-3 years and go back to school or go to school part-time while working to get your specialized degree.
Amy
I am aiming to eventually get into nonprofit management as well. I have quite a few friends who are in it, and I have to say the thing that serves them the best in their careers is fundraising experience, much more than any degree. I have a friend who is an ED of a large organization in our city – she has a bachelor’s in sociology and then was a massage therapist for many years, before going into nonprofit work. What has made her a star is her ability to cultivate donors. She routinely breaks records for fundraising for her organization, and it’s because she knows how to ask for money and get it, from the right people. Unfortunately, to get to the top levels of an NPO – executive director, CEO, etc. you need to have some fundraising experience, from what I have seen.
The other thing that really helps is anything having to do with a board – whether you were a board member yourself, or worked with one as a lower-level employees. Nonprofits almost always are governed by boards and the ability to recruit board members, get donations from them, and manage board involvement is critical.
I am actually going back to school and will be getting a Master’s of Management with an emphasis is Organizational Leadership and Change Management. Several people I talked to in the nonprofit world referred to this as the “soft skills” MBA because it is more about managing human as resources in an organization and is less about accounting, marketing, etc. than an MBA. Several nonprofit managers I know have this degree and it has served them well in their careers. However, I do think that actual work experience with a nonprofit is way more important than a degree. I’ve worked in several, and for-profits are just not the same. So even if it’s just more internships/volunteering – I would get some hard experience to go along with the degree. I also would definitely not go into a lot of debt to get an MBA, if you go that route, because even at top levels, in big nonprofits, salaries are just not that high. My friend the ED makes $100K and that’s considered the top end for her type of organization and what she does.
Sharon
Amy, is this Kellogg by any chance? I went to Kellogg, but did not finish the program d/t pregnancy.
Amy
Nope, Colorado State University-Global Campus – I am trying to go for what I can afford without loans and I know a couple of people who have gotten Global Campus degrees and they really liked the program. It also has a cool feature in that when you enroll, your per-credit-hour cost is locked in and you’ll pay the same amount until you finish your degree. Also, classes are only 8 weeks long which is good because I have a short attention span :)
Amy
p.s. I sympathize about the pregnancy thing – I was about to start an executive MBA program a few years ago when surprise! I got pregnant. Finally getting back on track for graduate school now.
Shayna
I work at a major exempt org, and I have my MBA.
The best part of my MBA was the interaction with other students – not just for future networking, but more as an exchange fo ideas outside of the three or four people I work with regularly. It also gives you a chance to ask questions and discuss with your professor different aspects of business (mine is focused in accounting, but I took courses in international finance, management, etc.). I graduated with excellent communications skills for business, and better understanding of various opportunities in the business world – not just in my field/organization, but major corporations, small companies, etc.
I highly recommend an MBA if you don’t have a background in business (either academically or professionally) or if all of your professional experiences are contained in one arena. I recommend it if you want to hone your communication skills (especially in presentations – which is important when working in an exempt org – particularly fundraising), enjoy discussing different academic concepts/business ideas, and most importantly have the time to devote to your classes… if you try to rush through them and don’t do the reading, papers, etc., you’re cheating yourself out of several thousand dollars and what can be an amazing experience.
Also – for many hiring managers the MBA is what the BA was 30 years ago – having it gives you a major edge regardless of where it’s from (I would never get one from a less than reputable university though, since it’s a lot of money and time that you’re investing), and you’re going to have it for the rest of your life — so if you leave nonprofit work in ten years, having an MBA on your resume will still give you an edge over someone else with similar experience but no MBA.
KH
another thing you must pick up somewhere is a solid understanding of the role of ED visa vis her board – separation of duties, working with your board, their fiduciary responsibilities, etc. A lot of excellent writing has been done on this topic.
In my experience, you are unlikely to get much of a look in the nonprofit field without a strong record of volunteerism. Not necessarily in the agency you want to join, or even the same field (arts, preservation, environment, social services, housing, etc), but definitely in the same issue space. Not feeling very articulate, but what I’m trying to say is that a history of volunteering for the symphony and ballet won’t help you move into something dealing with social justice, for example.
I don’t think you need the MBA unless you want to be ED of a large non-profit with a large budget, multiple programs, or supports itself through earned income strategies (e.g., Goodwill). I’d do some informational interviews with admired EDs throughout your community and one question to ask is: which nonprofits do you think are well-run and why? and do you know anyone there I could talk to?
Good luck.
anon
just a quick thanks – not the op here, but curious/interested in the same thing and i just copied all of your responses into a word document for reference. this site just keeps getting more and more useful – so thank you
Anon
Tuck MBA here.
I would say, without being too discouraging, to really look at the price tag of an MBA. Because it’s pretty hard to save the world on a nonprofit salary if you owe $2000/month in loans. Unfortunate, but true. So it’s important to look at the price tag.
As for resources, I would ABSOLUTELY check out the Forte Foundation’s website and businessweek.com’s forums. There is a very vibrant community at each of them. It sounds as though you are interested in a particular school, and I would not hesitate to contact the school and ask to be put in touch with current students or recent alums with similar goals. I would also ask to speak with the school’s career center–they may snow you on employment numbers, but at least you can have a sense of how they see their students positioned in your field.
As for the functional relevance of an MBA to a nonprofit, I echo much of what other posters said. You learn true management skills (budgets/strategy/negotiations) and softer mgmt skills (organizational development/fundraising/partnering).
I also strongly echo the above posters who said you need to demonstrate a track record of caring about SOMETHING. My classmates from b-school who ended up at amazing nonprofits (everything from education nonprofits to environmental organizations to program mgmt at the Gates Foundation) were very much the “save the world” types. A few of them did transition from the corporate world, but they had been doing lots of volunteering on the side.
Good luck!
Shayna
Love the Forte Foundation! And they have an interesting simulation that will give you some what-if scenarios to consider when making decisions about grad school.
Also – check out the grad school’s alum group on LinkedIn – you get a more realistic feel for who the alums are, and what they’re doing (and if you’re feeling gutsy, you can contact some to ask questions).
One more thing – My program did not require a thesis but I know most MPA (masters of public administration) do require one – food for thought!
MelD
My sister has a MSPPM (just a different version of an MPA) and while she didn’t get any money because she was doing a 5-year BS/MS, I got the impression that her school was very generous with aid- much more so than what I found when I was looking into MBA programs years ago. It seemed like most people did very well finding jobs and many of the classes were similar to what you’d take while getting an MBA.
I think you do have to take into account the loans you’ll end up having to take out in order to attend. I am not sure what options are available now that the feds are taking over lending- e.g. whether you can get a 6.8% Stafford for the whole thing or whether you have to get an 8.5% PLUS loan to cover anything not covered by the Stafford. That’s something to consider as well. Yes, there is IBR, but if you transition out of the public sector you’ll be stuck paying back your loans for 25 years.
Chicago K
MBA candidate here. I haven’t graduated yet but I can comment on a few things.
I don’t know if you have a business background, but an MBA will give you skills beyond management, that manager’s need to know. This would include such topics as how to read financial statements, how to craft strategy, basic marketing, business sustainability, etc. These are hardly things you are going to learn just by managing people, IMO. An MBA program will also cover management topics such as leadership, ethics, managing talent, stuff like this.
The skills you learn will be transferable to the non profit sector. Some schools may even offer a non-profit management specialization to cover additional topics such as fund raising and grant writing, and non-profit financial reporting.
As far as helping you break into non-profit management? It can’t hurt, but I think one of the more specialized non profit degrees might be more useful. I disagree that the best way to always learn something is always through working. A job is not the same as an education. It’s extremely rare that you will learn “hard skills” on the job. No one is going to sit you down and teach you economic concepts or how to read financial statements or how to craft a 10 year vision for the company. If those are concepts you think might be helpful to your chosen path, I would learn them in a formal setting.
If you are more interested in fine tuning your “soft skills”, such as how to be a great manager, better work with people, how to work with donors, those are things that are hard to be taught in school and it is best to practice on the job.
As far as books to read on your own. You could try that route. You could order a bunch of accounting books and start reading the HBR and Philanthropy Today and books on business sustainability. But b school allows you to also practice in a class room setting, which can be very beneficial. And let’s face it, it would be a full-time job to seek out all those books and read through them when a classroom setting will pull out the important bits.
Just my two cents…good luck!
Shayna
That no one is going to teach you the concepts of economics, finance, management, etc. is so true — and learning them in an environment where you’re going to be taught them completely, not just the shorthand version that a colleague or news article rattles off at you gives you a much better chance at retention and application at a later date.
Anon anon
I have a quick question for all corporettes. What do you think about getting an MBA after 40? The current career is mostly in technology and would love to get into more strategiuc work.
How would schools look at such an applicant?
Shayna
Can’t see why they would look down on you – I was in class with a range of ages (mostly 25 – 45) – and I suspect that given the current economy the range has trended upwards – as long as your resume is solid, your college (undergrad) transcript is good and you’re willing to take the GMAT/GRE, go for it. You may want to make an appointment with admissions though to ensure that you have the right program.
3L Sarah
(Ex-)Law student here, but lots of MBA buddies (Econ undergrad), and I looked into MBA programs for a while. They all REALLY VALUE real-world experience. It seems like all the top programs almost require working experience, and it seems as though an American can’t get into a European MBA program without it. So I think, if you have a good, long work history, they would (not necessarily rule out your GMAT/UGPA, but) weight your work history and experience more heavily than they would someone just graduating from undergrad.
Chicago K
The school I am attending actually requires 4 years of business experience to be admitted. As others mentioned, b schools tend to put a very heavy emphasis on work experience and the interviewing process. I think you would be looked upon very favorably for having the extra experience on your resume.
Whether you would be one of the oldest students…you might be, it really depends on the school and the area it is located in. A small private school in a smaller town would probably have older candidates then a large university in a major city. At my school the oldest person is in her early 50’s. She was passed over for a CEO position and she thinks it was because her lack of MBA so she decided to go back. Other than that, most people are late 20s/early 30s and a few in their 40’s.
You should ask if they will waive the GMAT due to work experience – my program did if you had 10 years post undergrad, and many “E-MBAs” will too.
Anon.
Many of the top schools skew young these days (particularly Stanford and HBS), but all of the top schools have a few outlier candidates. You’d be at a huge advantage for all things except a few careers (ibanking and consulting leap to mind, as they like energetic young folks, not older folks) because you have so much work experience.
You might find some of your 25 year old classmates a bit silly and lacking in real world common sense, and that is why many more-experienced managers enjoy taking Executive MBAs. However, be careful. Many Exec MBA programs have limited career services and higher tuition than regular programs because they are geared toward companies sponsoring the MBA. Even if you were not sponsored, that would affect your experience. But an Exec MBA would also provide a network of more-experienced managers to network with. It really depends on the school in question. I would encourage you to check out the businessweek.com forums to ask such questions.
And, for what it’s worth, the oldest member of my MBA class (top 10 school) was 44. Many folks called him “Blue” in homage to the character in the movie Old School. He had a real sense of humor about being older. I am not sure that the “you’re so old that….” jokes would play nearly as well with a woman!
Victoria
Hi all,
What are your thoughts on pin-striped button-down shirts (say pink and white) that have a contrasting white collar and cuffs? I recently found one on sale, and can’t decide if I like the contrast of the white.
The shirt I was looking at also has a small pocket on one side with white piping along the top – do you think this makes it too casual for a business formal environment? (I’m a law grad in the process of building my work wardrobe and start working in a few weeks).
Thanks!
Shayna
Never been a fan of the contrasting collar look – for some reason they remind me of bowling shirts. Anyone else?
Samantha
Not a fan here either. It used to be very popular with men in the 80s (you can still see it in some 80s movies). Now it is quite unfashionable for men and by extension I would say for women too.
K
Two words: Lumbergh shirts. I wouldn’t.
houda
I have one from Orimono, it has white cuffs and the white collar is like admiral collars (sorry can’t find the english word for it, but the collar doesn’t have a button and looks like many outfits worn by men in India). I get many compliments on it.
The stripes are thin and the pink is very light.
Lucy
Mandarin collar :)
Anonymous
I own one by Alain Figaret (no pockets) – royal blue pinstripes + white collar and looks great with black pants. Usually get loads of compliments on it. But it is very well cut as AF is known for it…
Experienced
That’s a no.
K
I’m thinking about investing in some nicer suit pieces from Brooks Brothers, but I’ve never bought anything there before. Do any of their pant fits work particularly well for curvy ladies, or do they tend to be straight up and down like Talbots pants? For reference, I have about a 12-13″ difference between my waist and hip measurements and I’ve found that the Jackson fit at Banana Republic tends to work best for me.
meg
i also prefer the jackson fit at BR, haven’t found great fit with Brooks outside of their sweaters.
3L Sarah
I would go in and try some on. I’m also curvy, and one cut of pants (it’s either the Caroline or the Catherine or whatever else they have) is more straight than the other (either the Catherine or the Caroline – I can’t remember which now!). But their pants look pretty good on me. I always have a harder time fitting pants than I do fitting skirts b/c of my legs, and so I usually buy a size up from what I would usually wear and then tailor it down, no problem.
FWIW, I usually go for a size 12 in BBros pants to tailor down, but the smallest BP Jackson pant I can get up past my thighs is a 14.
K
Thanks for the advice! I usually wear a 10-12 in the Jacksons so it sounds like I’d be looking for an 8-10 in BB. I’ll have to go try some on.
EM
Absolutely nothing off the rack at BB ever fit me. Fortunately, the stores have a TAILOR ON SITE who alter everything. From my experience, the saleshelp goes to get the tailor after she shows you to the fitting room, under the assumption that all clothes, just like men’s clothes, must be tailored to properly fit.
I have had both suits and blouses tailored, for either free or a nominal fee. It’s worth it (and I am very curvy, as well.)
Anon anon
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I was also thinking of Exec MBA, but the fees at top schools are prohibitive. In this economic climate, the rare employer will sponsor your exec education.
Elysian
This is totally random, but here it goes:
I’m getting married at the end of June and doing my own makeup. I normally wear Cover Girl True Blend foundation, but I’ve found it doesn’t stay at all. After maybe an hour, I have no coverage. I went to Ulta today and the woman there sold me some of this stuff I’ve never heard of from Smashbox. It was pretty pricey, but she said it will stay longer and cover better, two things I really wanted.
Does anyone have any experience with this? Is it any good, or should I take it back right now and get my money back?
Lucy
I haven’t used their foundation but they are a brand known for staying powder. I would think it might be a little cakey — that would be my only concern.
To have make up stay on it’s less about what foundation you use (although that matters) than about the other products & how you apply them. Start with a primer — this will make everything stay on longer & look better. Finish with powder.
I think there was a post about having make up stay on somewhere here a while back.
blonde lawyer
I had my make up done at a clinique counter for free the morning of my wedding. It stayed all day and looked great. I bought the lipstick and the mascara so that I was “giving” the make up girl something back. She also did test make up on me a couple weeks before so that I knew exactly what I wanted. We tried a couple different looks. I highly recommend it.
Shayna
Interesting idea for the budget bride (or in my case, budget wedding guest!) – thanks!
E
Did you get an appointment? I have a big event coming up next week (graduating from surgery residency!!!) and would like my makeup done for the banquet. I was thinking about going to Nordstroms and the clinique counter, but wasn’t sure the etiquette of that. Thanks!
Blonde Lawyer
Yes. I had an appointment for the wedding day but it was slightly flexible as in “my hair appt is at x time, I will coming straight after, likely between 12 and 12:30” for example. Like the poster below me, the girl was thrilled to be doing it. At Clinique they can’t charge and you can’t tip them. I know they partially work on commissions too which is why I bought some of the products. I LOVED the make up so much it made me want to buy all of it which is why I think they love doing it! Plus many our working through school and hoping to do professional make up in the future (what they do now is professional but I mean like in a salon, outside of school). I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Blonde Lawyer
Also, they have cards they fill out on you so you can always go back and buy the products later. She had wrote down what she used for each of the looks we tried so she knew exactly what to do the morning of. Even if she had been out sick or something anyone from Clinique could work off her card.
Ru
congratulations!
Amy.
I did this too. I got married so long ago that Garden Botanika still had retail stores. About a week before my wedding, I stopped in and talked to one of the counter girls about doing my makeup for my wedding. She was really excited to be able to do it. We did a test run that day, and when I went back a week later on my wedding day, she had some different looks sketched out on paper in case I wanted to change my mind. I ended up looking beautiful – people were commenting all day on how soft and pretty my makeup was and it photographed really well. To pay the girl back – she worked on partial commission – I bought the eyeshadows, eyeliner and blush she used on me on my wedding day which ended up costing something, but not nearly as much as I had been quoted by salon makeup artists. I also sent her some of my professional pictures after the wedding for her portfolio.
I think a lot of women working at makeup counters have a real interest in doing makeup, and they are happy to get to do a full “look” for someone, especially for a big event. You don’t have to forgo professional makeup on your wedding because you don’t want a makeup artist. I would visit a few counters and see if you can find someone who will help you out.
cat
You could check out Sephora (not sure if they carry Smashbox) or a department store that carries Smashbox and try out the product to see if it works.
Wondering
Any reason why you’re doing your own makeup? I did my own for my wedding and I regret it. I’m the type that wears makeup every single day, but day makeup and wedding makeup (particularly under harsh photograph lighting) is very very different. It’s probably the most or one of the most important days of your life and you and your friends/family will look at those wedding pictures many many times, so it’s important to look your best. I would highly recommend just paying someone else experienced to do it for you.
Erin
Take it back. Then go to a better cosmetics store like Sephora in the morning on a warm day, and have them do your makeup for you. Wear it all day. If you still like how it looks at 4pm, go back and buy the products they used.
But why are you doing your own makeup? By the time you buy a bunch of new products, you’ve probably paid as much as you would for a cosmetician to do it for you.
Elysian
Thanks for all the tips, folks…
I’m doing my own for the budget reasons. It’s also hard to pay someone to do my makeup for for my 11am wedding because I’ll be getting ready pretty early, which also counts out beauty counters because the stores aren’t open at 8:30am.
All I bought was a new foundation because I’m otherwise pretty happy with the other products I have, so paying someone to do my makeup probably would cost more than that one product, especially if I wanted to do a trial run first, etc… I was never really happy with my previous foundation anyway, so it was time for a change and this was a good chance.
I’m doing my own things for budget reasons… we’re paying for the wedding ourselves and don’t really have the dollars or the desire to spend them on every little detail. Hair and make-up was one place we can save $100, so, that was my plan. It’s just not really the most important part of the day for me.
She did try it out on my skin when I was there, but I thought I would seek some extra advice, if anyone knew. It seems all right to me I guess, but I don’t really pay to much attention to my makeup normally. Was just looking for a second opinion on the product.
Thanks!
K3L
As someone who paid to have her makeup done and HATED it, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to do your own makeup. I look at my pictures and see overly done, dark and unattractive. The only products that I know that are a real problem for photography is Clinique. Apparently they look like clown makeup under a flash. Good luck!!
Blonde Lawyer
Mine didn’t at all. Depends what products they use I guess.
Lizbet
Test drive it for several days in a row; you’ll get to see how it works under real life conditions and you should still be able to return it if it doesn’t work for you.
Ru
Whatever look you’re going for, try it on a couple of times and make sure to spend hours wearing it during nice muggy weather and see how your makeup holds up.
Experienced
I love Smashbox! I used Chanel immediately before Smashbox, and much prefer Smashbox. Also really love Smashbox’s Photo Finish. I probably have 20 years on you, so your youthful skin probably is more forgiving with less expensive makeup.
CSF
I agree. I exclusively use Smashbox. I used it on my wedding day as well (did my own). Just practice with it before hand. And I second the Photo Finish product. You really can’t go wrong with Smashbox, in my humble opinion.
KZ
I’ve used smashbox’s primer before and liked it, though I’ve never tried their foundation. if you have a sephora near you, you can always return what you bought at ulta and go ask for a sample at sephora–the sample things they make up for you are usually enough for a couple of days, so you can test.
E
I used SmashBox Photo Finish makeup for my wedding and was pleased with it. I used the primer first, and applied it with a brush and then put powder over it (I actually got a kit of all those things for like 40$, it was an incredible deal) and it looked great. I look back at my wedding photos and it pleases me how my skin looks — not too makeupy, but not pale and washed out, which is my natural state.
Anon
I also used the SmashBox Photo Finish primer under my normal makeup (CoverGirl TruBlend actually) for my wedding day and loved it. I thought it photographed smoother than normal and, in my personal opinion, looked good in person, too.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing your own makeup on your wedding day. I got married in a rural location without any option for hair and makeup (at least not that I was willing to use — no 80’s hair or blue eyeshadow for me, thanks). I went to Sephora a couple of weeks before my wedding and got tips on makeup for photos. I also went to a Lancome counter and got tips. I tried out what both told me and some new products they sold me during the weeks in between. The day of, I had some help from my b-maids with application (which was esp. nice on my eyes, as I was a bit shaky). I was really really happy with the results.
Do not let someone here convince you to use a “professional” just because you “should.” I always look ridiculous when I get my makeup professionally done. If you are someone who regularly wears makeup, esp. eye makeup, you are probably more than capable of doing your own and looking fabulous.
Res Ipsa
Agreed on doing it yourself–if you’re comfortable doing it yourself, then rage, rage, against the Wedding Industrial Complex which tells you you are a bad person for not spending more money on your wedding.
If you are having your photos professionally developed and finished, there’s a lot they can do to erase shine, and fix less-than-perfect makeup issues on the photos. (And if you’re like me, you’ll have been married four years and still never got around to getting the wedding photos developed, so….:)).
SUCL 3L
Need a little styling advice from the Corporette ladies:
I recently came across a few silk scarves that belonged to my mother (the long rectangular ones, not the square kind). They’re very light-weight and lovely and I’d kinda like to try wearing them, but I haven’t got the foggiest clue of how to style them.
Any suggestions on (a) how to tie them and (b) how to wear them with a suit? I know this may sound completely ignorant or odd, but the only scarves I’ve ever worn before are winter scarves that I took off the second I got in-doors.
Thanks ladies!
Lucy
The brooks brothers website has a ton of ideas with videos & how to’s.
There are probably a ton of other sites devoted to the subject & I have seen books in BN that you may want to browse in store some time.
It sounds like a lovely idea — just try different things & you’re sure to find a few styles you like.
Shayna
Thanks for asking this – I inherited a few myself and am yet to wear one for fear of looking like a stewardess a la 1972!
Erin
Check out these sites for tying tricks:
http://www.unefemme.net/search/label/Scarves
http://www.texeresilk.com/cms-scarf_tying_guide.html
I wear scarves 3-4 days a week. With a suit you can wear it under or over the jacket, tightly wrapped around your neck or hanging – however you like.
Liz
You know, the bandage-style heels are growing on me. I really hated them at first, but I think their ubiquity is wearing me down.
CC
This is completely unrelated, (but I guess it is the weekend thread), but does anyone else love the PR moves Sandra Bullock is doing? I’m just really impressed by the businesswomen aspect, besides the human aspect of doing ok after a personal shakeup.
Lizbet
Yes, yes, yes! On par with Nicole Kidman after Tom Cruise left. Classy and above the fray.
CC
First the surprise baby people magazine cover which she managed to keep a secret, then she told Spike she would not be there to accept an award, shows up secretly, accepts it looking amazing in a leather dress and pays homage to the troops who nominated her.
Shayna
She is seriously impressive! There are so many ways blow ups like hers can play out…
Woman of Color
Follow up to an earlier posted question. So I am finally through with my first trimester (Hooray!) I graduated from law school last week, and am in full swing with studying for the bar. I found out in late April that my firm wants me to start the day after Labor Day (Double Hooray!) However, 75% of the rest of my summer class was deferred until January. I have not told them about my pregnancy yet. By the time I start I will be almost 7 months. I plan on working up until I am ready t o deliver (due date 12/4). I already have child care lined up, so I will only take 4-6 weeks off. I would like to tell them in the next two weeks or so, so I can put it behind me and focus on Bar stuff. Any suggestions on how I should go about. For background, firm is midsize in NYC. Thank you.
Amy
No advice about the rest of it, but I do have some advice about this:
“I already have child care lined up, so I will only take 4-6 weeks off. ”
4-6 weeks is a very short maternity leave. It is going to be really hard to get breastfeeding established and both of you in a good routine in 6 weeks. Unless your baby is a really amazingly good sleeper, you are going to be very exhausted. You’ll also be dealing with a lot of fluctuating hormones, which coupled with the sleep deprivation can be really tough to deal with. Additionally, if you end up having a c-section, in most cases doctors will not clear you to return to work for 8 weeks, and it becomes a liability issue for your company to let you come back before that. I understand what your concerns are about your job, but this is your child. You need time to take care of your baby and yourself after you give birth, and 4 weeks is not enough time, in my opinion. If there really is absolutely no other option, I understand, but I would really consider trying to make arrangements to take more time if you possibly can. Speaking from my own experience – I had no idea how exhausting it is to have a baby, until I had one. You owe it to yourself to have more than 4 weeks to recover and get adjusted to being a new mother.
AN
Agree 100% with Amy. You will need 8 weeks (regardless how C section/normal) and babies usually start sleeping through the night only around 2.5 mths or so.
Congratulations on passing the 1/3 stage & good luck with job + baby!
Eponine
This is a tricky situation. You need to investigate the leave policy. Will you have maternity leave immediately upon starting? At my employer, and at many employers, you don’t accrue leave until you’ve worked there for 6 months, and FMLA does not kick in until you’ve been there for a year, so they don’t have to give you unpaid leave either. If that’s the case with your employer, you probably are best off being up front and asking them if you can be deferred to January – although I think taking a deferral is a bit of a risk, in your case it might be the best bet. If you do need to ask to be deferred to January, I’d let HR know as soon as possible so that they can make arrangements for someone else to take your place with the September start date.
If you know you will be able to take maternity leave two months after starting, I think you should just go ahead with your plan to start in September. Honestly, new associates don’t get a ton of work until after they get admitted, which in your case will probably be in February or so, i.e. around the time you return from leave. I don’t know if I would tell them this early, although it’s your call. When you tell them, I’d formally notify them of your acceptance of the September start date (if you haven’t already) and then follow up by letting HR know that you’re pregnant and telling them the date you expect to begin leave (normally a day or two before your due date). They can’t retaliate or force you to defer because you’re pregnant, so don’t worry about that.
In addition to notifying HR, you should personally let any partners or senior associates you worked with closely know so they can share in your good news and be forewarned of your absence. HR probably won’t advise them for you b/c of confidentiality reasons, and besides, some people might be offended to hear it through the grapevine instead of from you.
There are two other things I think you should keep in mind, assuming this is your first pregnancy. First, if you have complications, you could end up on bed rest or otherwise unable to work for periods during the last couple months of your pregnancy. Since those months would coincide with your first couple months of work, you’re taking a small but real risk by starting then. Second, 4-6 weeks is unlikely to be long enough. Maternity leave isn’t just to give you a chance to bond with your baby, but also to give you a chance to physically recover. If you have a C-Section or any complications you’re likely to need at least 2 months. Plus, being a new parent is exhausting, and I don’t think you’ll be mentally or physically in shape to begin working 60 hour weeks only a month after giving birth. I’d plan to take about 3 months off if at all possible.
Blonde Lawyer
I’m usually in the minority when I post on here about pregnancy issues b/c I tend to sympathize with employers a bit. While I do not condone discrimination, I recognize that it is a huge pain in the butt for employers to have employees out on maternity leave.
In your situation, I would be really annoyed if I had 5 associates hired, one starting in September and the rest starting in January and I chose you as the one to start in September and then you went on maternity leave leaving me high and dry until the others started in January.
A three month difference in start date is not a good reason to begin your new job with animosity. I would be up front and say “I really appreciate you choosing me to start in September. I would love to. However, I am currently pregnant and due x date. Rather than having me out on leave, would you prefer I start in January and have another associate start in September? I would be more than happy to spend my deferment recovering from my pregnancy.” I think that is the perfect win/win for both you and your employer – and much fairer to your future colleagues.
Res Ipsa
Agreed. I think you also have to take into consideration that things just may not work out as you planned. Virtually every woman in my office in the last 2 years who has given birth has had something unexpected come up where they ended up needing more maternity leave than originally expected (C-section, preemie needing heart surgery, baby with other medical issues, child care which was planned ending up falling through, etc.). So try to be as flexible as you can (and see how flexible the firm can be.) In addition to considering bowing out until the January start date, you might seek out other options, such as working from home or part-time for another month or two. Best of luck!
AN
Blonde lawyer – love the wording! I wanted to recommend the same – (to start in Jan). As I am outside the US, wasn’t sure whether that would work…………
Woman of Color
Thank you everyone for the advice thus far. I know that I am being incredibly optimistic about everything, but I sincerely believe in thinking positively. Also, I grew up in a country that women get right back to work usually a week or so after pregnancy. This is generally due to having a great deal of familial support in raising one’s children (which I will have). Although I would love to stay home a bit longer, the looming baby bills (hubby and I have to move out of our closet, and purchase a house, a baby mobile, etc.) ahead don’t really put my mind at ease (not to mention my upcoming student loan bills, one of which I will begin paying back this month). I am going in based on the assumption that I will not be paid during maternity leave, which I can absolutely live with. Deferring until January (no income pre baby) is just not economically feasible for us at this time. Life just always seem to happen, and I figure I just need to roll with it. I know I may raise some eyebrows, and perhaps piss a few people off, but I don’t think its anything that I should be apologetic about. It’s a baby, I am committed to the firm, and I will be back.
A
Although in the best of all worlds everything will work out exactly as you plan, it is worth having some thought as to financial backups in case you change your mind, or you are not able to work toward the end of your pregnancy. I know many people who were 100% healthy and in shape going into their pregnancies who ended up on bed rest in the last month or two because of high blood pressure, pre-term labor worries, etc. You need to be at least a little mentally prepared for that eventuality.
You can get a forbearance on your loan, put off the house, and forgo the mobile. I slept in a drawer on my parents’ bedroom floor until I was a few months old, and I turned out ok! I know having a baby is expensive (I’m 6 months pregnant myself), but it doesn’t have to be out of control expensive.
I’ll say this as a fellow recent graduate. I’d be irritated if there was only one non-deferred spot and it went to someone who couldn’t work at least 1/3 of the period between the deferral and non-deferral candidates. I get that at some point you need to look out for yourself and that life happens, but is it really worth ticking off the other people in your class before you even walk in the door?
divaliscious11
I would not care so much about the other class but I do think you nee to reach out to your partner, and talk through your plan with him or her… he/she will be the one who make this work, or messes this up…
divaliscious11
Talk to your partner FIRST. It will piss him/her off way more if HR gets to them before you do.
Eponine
Just make sure that your employer will allow you to take unpaid leave. They’re not legally required to by FMLA if you haven’t worked there for a year, and it’s possible that you’ll only be allowed to take whatever leave you’ve accumulated in the two months you’ll have worked there. Otherwise, do what you need to do to make ends meet – I agree that sometimes you just have to roll with the punches.
Amy
I totally understand what you’re saying. I do want to add one other thing. Remember that when people do a lot for you, or make exceptions for you, they will expect a lot from you in return. I really liked the suggestion to say you were willing to give your spot to another person and be deferred until January because that would do two things: make you look like you are a team player with the best interests of the firm in mind, and also prevent a situation where there are resentments from your higher-ups or your entering class members that develop as soon as you start working. Remember that companies do not care about what is best for you, in most cases; they care what value you add to the firm, and the best way to get something from a company is to make it appear you want to do what is best for them, not for you. If you come in and immediately it appears that you put your own needs/wants ahead of other people or the firm, that is probably going to cause problems. Remember also that the people who are starting in January will know what has gone on, and you will most likely be working for them for a long time. You can end up solving your short-term financial problems (which I fully appreciate are important) and creating a whole lot of problems for yourself with your higher-ups and peers long-term. I imagine that if they put you in over someone else, they are going to expect you to perform – health, child care, or stress problems be damned. And if you don’t, for whatever reason, there will be hell to pay. Just be sure, going into this, that you want the kind of pressure and scrutiny you will almost certainly get by making this decision. I really wish you the very best of luck and hope everything works out for you the way you want it to.
AEK
Agree with this.
I am a midlevel biglaw associate. Was talking about some of the first-years with a partner recently because we had a case to staff. One associate , a January starter, will be taking maternity leave in another month. The partner commented that her taking leave so soon after starting, in this economy, was a very “aggressive” move. I don’t particularly agree and I said so. But I do think it’s very important to understand that this attitude is not uncommon among partners. And not just male ones.
KZ
You could also put the loan in forbearance so it starts paying off the same time as the others (which, if your loans are about the same as mine, and I’m guessing they are, means you will start paying loan repayments about the time you start work if you take the deferral until january) Yes, it will still accrue interest, but I’m guessing that starting monthly payments now with no positive source of income will be much harder than paying back the 6 months of accrued interest over the life of the loan.
Purpleviolet
I think you are risking more than raised eyebrows.
MelD
I have a friend who started the earliest in her class because her department needed her ASAP. She was working 60-70 hours a week straight from the start and it hasn’t let up at all since she started. Is that something you really want while you’re 6-8 weeks pregnant and while your baby is just a few weeks old? I know many women have to go back to work fairly quickly, but most are not going back to situations where they are working 10 hours a day 6 days a week.
Your loans should be fairly easy to defer/forbear for the first year. I know my private loans were automatically deferred until February, so you’d probably only have to worry about deferring your federal loans. Your child will be fine if s/he doesn’t have a mobile or a house the first few months of life and will probably be better off with fewer material things and more Mommy time.
Eva
“no income pre baby is just not economically feasible for us at this time”
What would you have done if you were in the majority group that had been deferred?
anon
You should think of the economics of this long-term. If collecting a few weeks’ salary as a starting associate will adversely affect your entire career, as this might (fairly or unfairly), the economic choice is relatively obvious.
KC
I sympathize with your situation, the timing just sort of sucks and there’s really not much you can do about that. And congrats on your baby, its the best thing in the world! I would, however, recommend that you rethink your approach to how to present this the firm.
Because you won’t have been with the firm long enough to qualify for FMLA leave, it’s possible that they not only won’t pay you for your leave, but that they won’t allow you to take a maternity leave. That scenario is highly unlikely, but they could do it if they were really pissed off that you didn’t let them know asap what was going on. A more likely scenario would be that they would let you take the leave you wanted (and may well pay you for it) but that at least some of the people you will be working for will be more than a little upset about you taking leave so quickly after starting. I say this only because you said that they deferred most of your class–if everyone was starting in September, I doubt that you taking maternity leave so quickly would be a big issue. It might raise a few eyebrows, but there really wouldn’t be anything too much for anyone to complain about. But because most of your class isn’t starting until January, it’s possible that they want you to start in September because they have a specific need in your practice area. If you are on leave, that specific need won’t be filled. This could lead to resentment from the partners that you will be working for, which is just not a good foot to start off on.
I think the best approach would be to let them know asap and to offer to defer if they would prefer to have someone else (who will be available the entire time) start right away. My guess is that they will turn your offer down anyway, but then you will have the added benefit of looking like a team player, and no one can complain about you taking leave so soon, since you offered to defer. Pregnancy and new motherhood can be unpredictable, so although you may plan to work up until your due date and to come back asap, things change and there’s not much you can do about it. Being upfront with them now and making the offer to defer may buy you some goodwill if/when you need it later on in your pregancy or after baby arrives.
North Shore
Best of luck to you, but I was still having medical issues from the birth at 4 weeks, and I didn’t even have a c-section. Not to go into details (TMI), but childbirth does a number on your body, so you should be prepared in case things don’t go perfectly. I also worked up until delivery, but have had quite a few friends who ended up on bed rest.
divaliscious11
Take your full leave. You will not be working o anything so important that you HAVE to get back, and then you’ll be rested enough to jump back in full steam… and you wont be so far behind the rest of your class that could have negative impact…
Jen
On the interviewing/signing bonus question: for university jobs, it is very unlikely that the person interviewing you will be making the decision re your salary. I’ve always found this makes negotiation easy: I speak in the third person: “how likely is it that they’ll give me a signing bonus?” For me, as a faculty member, I’ve always spent most of the interview with the dept chair, but the dean sets the salary. Last hiring, my new chair-to-be hinted at some things I might want and some reasons for which things might be granted. He and I strategized what he should say when he tool my requests to the dean.
Good luck!
Shayna
Thanks! Did not occur to me that my potential new boss may not be the $ decision maker…
Anonymous
Hi Ladies, I’ve been following Corporette for a while now but this is my first time posting. I am a i lawyer in my mid-twenties, and after three years working in the equivalent of BigLaw in Europe, I am taking a year off to get an LL.M. in the U.S. I just received an invitation to attend a farewell reception at the U.S. embassy, which says that the dress code is ‘business attire’. I’m not entirely sure what that means though: do I have to wear a suit or can I get away with a nice dress/skirt with a non-matching jacket or cardigan? I currently don’t own any full suits (h any for work) and would prefer not to spend too much money on new clothes in view of the upcoming year without any income. On the other hand, I definitely don’t want to offend anyone at the embassy! I would really appreciate your views on this. Thank you!
Anonymous
Oops, that meant to say that I never needed any suits for work.
Eponine
I’m an American lawyer who travels a lot for work. At events like this, the Americans are always in fairly conservative suits. Most of the European women are more colorful and feminine, but still formal. It’s fine to wear a more formal version of what you normally wear to your office, but be aware that the Americans will be more conservatively dressed. Presumably there will be a lot of guests at the event who are from your country, and they’ll be less conservatively dressed.
You should plan to pick up a suit to wear for events like this during your LLM program. Assuming you dress more like a typical European lawyer, once you’re in the US you’ll probably want to tone down your style a bit, especially if you’re planning to interview for US-based jobs. A lot of my European, especially Eastern European, colleagues tend to stick out like a sore thumb at events here in DC and it’s not exactly great for their careers to be known as, for instance, the lady with the hot pink pantsuit or the woman in the miniskirt :).
jojo
It depends which country you’re in and, to some extent, who the Ambassador is. I’ve been to events at U.S. Embassies in Asian countries and people dress on the conservative side. I would suggest a suit, but a dress with a matching or coordinating jacket could work, too.
Jen
Sorry for the typo–meant to say “when he took my requests to the dean”
Jen
I’ll add my 2 cents on maternity leave too. I interviewed pregnant but no one knew it ti I showed up for the job in Aug. When the baby was born early Oct I planned to take 3 wks off but he had jaundice so I needed 1 more week. It was hard as could be but then again my son’s pediatrician, who had seen plenty of new moms, had 3 mos leave and had her child’s father and her own mother there, was also shocked at how hard it was. Bottom line–get all the support you can, but go with what you’ve got. As long as you cherish the moments you do have with your child and set things up to be as stabile & loving as possible you’ll both be fine. This is life and you’ve got to live it.
Woman of Color
I am curious about your speedy return back to work. Was this your first child? How did you feel? Was it by choice, or “suggested” by your place of employment? What was the reaction of your co-workers when you arrived on the job looking very pregnant? I ask because people look at me crazy when I say I am would like to go back ASAP. I initially wanted to do the same, (not say anything, but just show up), but upon advice of my law school dean, I was told to tell them sooner rather than later. I hope that you and your baby are both doing well.
divaliscious11
WOC – I started BigLaw pregnant. I went to my partner as soon as I finished my first Tri (was still clerking) and told him, laid out my plan and got clear on his expectations etc…. I would never just show up pregnant past 1st tri, but do not call HR…and my BigLaw let me take my whole 12 weeks paid…..
Woman of Color
Thanks divalicious11. I was definitely thinking the same thing. Although the firm is more than 100 attorneys (but less than 200), that news will travel fast. I figure I was selected as an early starter for a reason (Also, if the situation was reversed, I am pretty sure the other summers would not step aside for my benefit). My plan was to meet with the head partner in my department and be completely honest and forthright (again not being apologetic, but restating my commitment to the firm), and then go from there. The head of HR was a busy body, and I do not see myself calling him first and laying it all on the table.
mille
Are black suede flats appropriate for the office with pants, or should I go for the leather version? I like the deeper black of the suede, but haven’t done it for the office before. I have a back injury and am pregnant and have lost my sense of balance, so flats are it for now.
http://www.zappos.com/sofft-seville-black-suede-patent
Res Ipsa
I think the black suede looks fine generally, but would look rather strange in the summer. If it’s summer where you are, I’d go with the leather version, because they are probably more versatile.
KZ
agreed. I definitely think of suede as a fall/winter material. (also, leather is easier to clean than suede, so that’s a plus)
Shayna
Yes – I always ‘water resistant spray’ suede shoes but they get scuffed so easily that the leather is usually a smarter move!
MelD
I probably wouldn’t go with suede in summer. As others have pointed out, it’s much harder to clean and I’ve had bleeding problems with suede in the past when I’m wearing them in hotter weather.
Louise
I find suede to be hotter than leather and it makes my feet sweat more.
Unless you’re talking about sneakers or flip flops, I think people cut pregnant women a huge amount of slack when it comes to shoes. Wear what’s comfortable and don’t worry too much if it seems a bit different that what you would normally choose for the office.
Shayna
yes – and I think we can all agree that having black stained feet is less than attractive (and will keep you from wearing cute summer sandals out of work!)
Not that Kat
Not sure if it’s too late to get responses on the weekend thread . . . I’m hoping some of the Floridians can help me out. I’m making a presentation to a town council in south Florida this week. My usual “uniform” for this sort of thing is a black skirt suit, subdued shell/sweater, hose and black pumps. But based on some of the comments I’ve seen here, it seems the rules are somewhat different down your way. So, is my planned clothing appropriate or should I make some changes? I obviously want to look professional, but not ridiculous (i.e., why in the world is that stupid midwesterner wearing hose in south Florida?)!
MelD
I’d suggest something a little more summery. It’s so hot out this week with about 90+% humidity and highs in the 90s, so you’ll be absolutely miserable in pantyhose. I’d choose a summer suit in a lighter color and add some color to the shell/sweater you choose to wear with it.
Not that Kat
Thanks – you’ve made my day by confirming I don’t have to wear a black suit with hose!