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Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
We're digging this fun dress for a summer day — we like the unusual color and pattern, as well as the fact that the reviewer suggested it was great for a larger chest. (Summer dresses can be a challenge for larger chests, what can we say?) It's $62 at Zappos. Lol – Radiate Dress (Chili Combo) – Apparel
Chicago K
Can anyone recommend any career books for women? Looking to do some summer reading now that I’ve finished school for the year.
SF Bay Associate
Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office. I re-read it every few months to remind myself of what not to do, and to also be pleased with myself when I’ve stopped a limiting behavior.
A-non-lawyer
+1,000,000
Every time I reread it, I find something that speaks to me at that point in my life.
I’m not out of school yet, but I definitely think it will help me start my career on the right foot.
JessC
Agreed. I got it not long ago and so far have only read bits and pieces, but it definitely makes you think.
Believe it or not, I picked up the book after seeing it in the office of one of the female profs at my school who I really admired and looked up to. And she DID have the corner office.
cj
Just bought for my Kindle – hooray instant gratification! Looking down the table of contents, I am unfortunately not surprised to see I make a ton of these mistakes.
SF Bay Associate
Follow her suggestions and work on one area at a time. That way it’s not so overwhelming.
fresh jd
Time and again this one is always echoed by commenters: “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” by Lois Frankel. I read it a long time ago during college, but should re-read it now that I’m done with law school.
Also, in business school every single executive that had ties to my school recommended “What Color is Your Parachute” — but this is a practical career guide for finding a job and the career that fits you, not just for women.
Shayna
Second Frankel’s books — Nice Girls Don’t Get The Corner Office is on sale on Amazon for $10 – http://amzn.to/9Kpx4y
dd
Has anyone read ‘swimming lessons for baby sharks,’ some new book out [supposedly] for new lawyers? i’ve seen it referenced a few times but have not heard any reviews.
MidSouth Atty
I’ve read it. I am a mid-level associate and found it to be geared to those in their first year of practice instead of years 1-3 as the author recommends. I think it’s a must-read for ANY new associate set to begin working at a law firm in the near future. It is direct, easy to read, and helpful. Most importantly, the advice was sound. Highly, highly recommend it and I have given it to my firm’s professional development coordinator with the hope that they will issue a copy to new associates this fall.
fresh jf
I got it as part of my westlaw rewards points but haven’t read it yet because I’m too busy studying for the bar.
lawDJ
Thanks, just bought bought of the books recommended on here! Based on other recs on this site I’d also bought: Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity and Why Good Girls Don’t Get Ahead … waiting for all to arrive and then off to read I go :)
Kaye
Women Don’t Ask – http://www.amazon.com/Women-Dont-Ask-Negotiation-Gender/dp/069108940X
Be Your Own Mentor – http://www.amazon.com/Be-Your-Own-Mentor-Strategies/dp/037550060X
Getting to Yes – http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Yes-Negotiating-Agreement-Without/dp/0140157352/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277499146&sr=1-1
Chicago K
Thank you all for the suggestions! I will definitely pick up “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” and all the rest look worthwhile too.
MPC
After nearly a year of waiting, I am FINALLY going to start the government job I was offered after I graduated college! I have been temping in the meantime, and I’ve developed a support-staff mentality toward the way I dress– my clothes are office-appropriate, but they don’t say “take me seriously!” I have a few suits, but I’m looking for a few good blazers to wear with my (mostly gray and navy) pants and skirts. Any suggestions?
Ex-3L Sarah
Banana Republic and Brooks Brothers are having sales right now.
Eponine
Second this. J. Crew’s suiting is also quite nice.
Res Ipsa
it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but if you wait for sales (or get on their email list for coupons), Coldwater Creek has a lot of interesting jackets that would dress up the pants and skirts you already have. Also, Lands’ End.
lala
I’ve actually been really down w/ coldwater creek lately! I feel like I’m too young, but they had some short sleeved sweater numbers that were nice for under suits.
CJ in CA
I feel like I’m too young for them (and talbots) but, looking young doesn’t do you any favors in the office, right? So, I guess for a while we’ll just have to have completely separate work and life wardrobes.
fresh jd
Where do you shop for work clothes CJ in CA?
lawDJ
LandsEnd and Talbots. Yes sometimes they are boxy, but they are great quality, have great sales, aren’t always boxy (and if they are and you got them on sale, it’s worth the minimal tailoring).
ES
Anne Klein is having a large sale right now – I saw some nice suit jackets on their website, which means that you could always search for the other pieces later to make a complete suit.
http://www.anneklein.com/Platinum-Ink-Multi-Three-Button-Notch-Blazer/90341726,default,pd.html?cgid=90275075&itemNum=60&variantSizeClass=&variantColor=JJ2BWXX&ep_tag=AF200905
MPC
Thanks for all the recommendations! I haven’t bought anything yet, but I stopped by JCPenney today and was pleasantly surprised by the blazers there– they were much more modern and of a higher quality than I expected. Some of them were on sale for as little as $30, even! If you are on a budget and looking for some basic separates, JCP could be worth a trip.
CFM
Just ordered this so can’t speak to quality yet, but I thought it would be nice for a summer blazer
http://www.calvinklein.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4160997
Family reunion
Every year my husband’s family has a reunion, with about 15 adults and 5 kids ranging from new born to age 5. Where should we hold our next reunion? We usually just end up going to someone’s house and all crashing together in one house, eating lots of food and playing board games. We always have a great time but we would actually like to go to a “fun” destination (within the US only) this time.
People will be coming from the west coast and east coast, so location isn’t all that important as long as it’s a place relatively close to a major airport where people can fly in. It would be nice to be close to a beach or to a place with other kid friendly activities. People have varying incomes as well, so we’re not looking for a fancy resort or anything like that.
Any suggestions?? Thanks!
SF Bay Associate
What about a short cruise, probably one leaving from Florida? This is what my SO’s family does, with time for togetherness and also separation, no one has to cook or clean, etc. There are often great deals on cruises that end up being a lot cheaper than food and lodging on land.
MM
I’ve always wanted to go to the Outer Banks, which seems to be a wonderful family location that can be done at reasonable cost — everyone can go in on a house together. Never been personally, but that could be a good idea if it is close enough to an airport to be reasonable.
anon-ny
this is actually a suggestion my brother and I have recently thrown out as an option for next summer in our family. We are likewise scattered around the country and while he hasn’t ever been, I have and it is beautiful. The beaches are gorgeous and there are loads of beach houses available to rent. It is a bit of a drive from the airport but not terrible and you can rent a place that is big enough to allow for separate and together time. Plus in addition to the beach Kitty Hawk isn’t too far and is kind of a neat historical site to visit.
anon-ny
I should clarify that I am concurring with the Outer Banks, NC suggestion.
SF Bay Associate
Sorry to be all over this thread. I’d also point out the cruise is popular because there are lots of pricing options, all in the same place. The matriarch in the SO’s family can get the fancy, club-level suite she wants, and the parts of the family on smaller budgets go for regular cabins with outside windows, and stick the kids in the pretty inexpensive windowless interior cabins (since they only sleep there, the kids don’t care). Despite the different prices, everyone wakes up in the same place and can spend time together, which is much harder to find on land.
JessC
Agreed. I live near one of the ports in FL. I’ve never been on a cruise, but have researched the possibility before. You’d be amazed at how cheap they are going now (and there are 3-day options out there if you’re not looking for spending a whole week).
MelD
Definitely think this is a great option. You can get dirt cheap last minute cruises, so it’s something that should fit into each person’s budget. Most cruises also have activities for kids age 2+.
I love Northern Michigan too, but the flight prices when I’ve look are absolutely outrageous. My sister was a counselor at Interlochen some years ago and had to fly into Flint because it was too expensive to get to Traverse City.
Ariella
My husband’s family (which, like yours, is spread throughout the country) recently did one in Traverse Bay, Michigan. They loved it because it was close to swimming on the lake, not too hot or too cold, and was sort of “in the middle” of the country.
It is gorgeous up there. Lots to see and do; I would highly recommend.
A
I second the northern Michigan suggestion — my extended family (also spread out across the country) has vacationed for years in a town about two hours north of Traverse City; the whole area is wonderful, I can’t recommend it enough. There are lots of wineries, markets, and a few nice restaurants (I think I read that Mario Batali just opened one near Leelanau, north of Traverse City), as well as tons of places to hike/bike/boat/tube/hang out on the beach, etc. Oh and you can hit the outlets on a rainy day…
ceb
Yes, yes, yes! I love that area of Michigan. It is so beautiful in that region. Author Ann Patchett recently wrote an article for the NY Times about it. Great food, beautiful scenery, quaint little shops . . . what is not to love?
Here is the link to the article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/t-magazine/23talk-michigan-t.html?pagewanted=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1274450407-Q6pfADcc831S9djzkycuaw
Chicago S
I will jump on the Western Michigan band wagon, we have been to Traverse City and South Haven and they were both great. Sleeping Bear Dunes is not far from Traverse City and makes for a fun day, climbing on dunes and enjoying the park.
Lyssa
I’m going to pimp my area a little bit here, but if your family would like mountains and hiking type activities, Tennessee has some really nice, wide-open, inexpensive areas (no beach, but a lot of lakes and rivers). Pigeon Forge is a popular destination; they have a lot of theme parks-type stuff that kids would like (and, OK, Dollywood), and a lot of shopping, as well as mountains with hiking and stuff. I know you can rent a big house or bunch of little rooms or something like that. Chattanooga (my area) is less tourist trap-y, but has a lot of mountains and is very nice.
Again, if you’re willing to give up the actual swimming part of being at the beach, you could consider the gulf area. It’s cheaper than a lot of places, I think, and you can probably get some great deals, because they’re pretty desparate for tourism now.
Anon
We had a family reunion type thing in Chattanooga last year. Some of the relatives lived in that area, so that was the deciding factor, but it truly was a good place to do it. The little kids loved the aquarium. The adults all enjoyed the outdoor areas downtown to walk around (and very cool art galleries and shops). Everything was fairly moderately priced. I would recommend if you’re not a swimming family (we’re not).
Anonymous
Yay for East Tennessee!
la peagoise
chattanooga is also the best place in the US for things like paragliding. lookout mountain is absolutely gorgeous.
but i have to say, i absolutely adore nashville :) BNA is really close to the city and if you can learn to embrace your honky-tonk side, there’s a lot of fun to be had (and the most FABULOUS people-watching i’ve ever done…some of those mustaches are amazing!). summer is also a great time for some wonderful outdoor concerts in nashville and, in light of recent flooding, a lot of them are really spectacular benefit concerts. also an opportunity for some voluntourism. there are some beautiful parks all around the city for hiking and nice lakes for boating (water park included!).
as far as beaches, the gulf has some of the most beautiful beaches in the world (imho), but i’m afraid things are looking a little…dull around there right now. make sure to check that the beach is oil-free before you plan.
and…to get a little more urban, atlanta is another lovely city. traffic is a MESS though.
birmingham is lovely also, if lacking a little on the entertainment side. although my yankee friends always loved going to see vulcan’s naked butt.
JessC
I agree that Gulf beaches are gorgeous. I wouldn’t worry TOO much about the oil just yet. It’s really only showing up in the northern part of Florida, around the panhandle. And even still it’s pretty minimal. If you head around the Tampa Bay or Sarasota area there isn’t any oil in sight (and did I mention that Siesta Key is one of the most beautiful beaches in the country??).
Having been over in the area of St. Pete beach not that long ago, I can tell you there’s no oil whatsoever.
Eponine
I have wonderful memories of childhood family vacations in the Smokey Mountains, Wisconsin Dells, and the Indiana and Michigan shores along Lake Michigan (Michigan City, Indiana is nice).
Family reunion
Thanks for all of the great recs so far. I should have clarified and said that a cruise is not an option because my husband believes that they are very environmentally destructive (ie: they ruin the coral reef, all the sludge from the boat gets dumped in the river, etc.). If anyone knows of any eco friendly cruises (do they exist?) or can correct my husband on his perception, please let me know because I do think a cruise would be ideal. Keep the ideas coming please!!
Shayna
My family did a big group trip last year in Punta Cana, in the Dominican Republic — we picked an all inclusive resort so no one had to constantly have to hand out money to their kids, or worry about their wallets… It was very relaxing, and most resorts have programming for kids, lots of pools, and many different restaurants to choose from – but all inclusive is definitely the way to go! Also, check where the resort is located – we picked one about 20 minutes fromt he airport, but some are two hours away – and that could mean two hours in an un airconditioned van.
MelD
Friends of the Earth started grading cruise ships last year for environmental friendliness. You can find the latest rankings here – http://www.foe.org/cruisereportcard. I did a search for the Caribbean cruises and Coral Princess and the Holland America Westerdam and Zuiderdam were the three that received A ratings.
Lee
My extended family of 22 had a reunion in Jackson Hole, Wyoming a few years ago and it was great! There is a lot to do if you like the outdoors (hiking, white water rafting, trail rides, etc), but there is also shopping in the town of Jackson and a really nice art museum as well. There are a lot of very large houses, so you can rent something that has 5 or 6 bedrooms. We rented two 4 bedroom houses that were next door to each other, which worked really well. It wasn’t really too expensive when it was divided by a lot of people. The Grand Tetons are truly spectacular!
PJB
Disneyland! Our family reunion was at one of the Disney hotels located on/adjacent to Disneyland. We had connecting suites and our whole extended family was on the same floor. Our hotel had a great swimming pool as an added virtue.
One of the great things was going on the rides late at night. There are virtually no lines, and tired children are only moments from their hotel beds. We also visited nearby Knott’s Berry farm which had great rides and great food, and then took a day trip to Universal Studios.
Also, there is now an IPhone App for waiting times at the varying rides. It was amazingly accurate.
Anonymous
I’m glad that people liked my TN recommendation! (I was afraid people would just think it was too “hick” for them.)
Family Reunion, Slate had an article recently about cruising’s impact on the environment (http://www.slate.com/id/2226797/). It didn’t really reach a conclusion, but seemed positive (when you take into account that cruising is everything, entertainment, travel, etc.) The article also had some info on “green” cruises.
But, again, if you’re big on the environment, TN is a great place to visit. (I’m sort of anti-outdoors myself, but people who like nature-type things love it!). You could also consider camping, if that’s the sort of thing you’re into (particularly since you mentioned that you usually do a lot of low-key stuff like playing board games, which would be ideal for camping, I would imagine.)
Kimbo
Sandusky, Ohio could be fun. Cedar Point is right in Sandusky and you can hop a boat to the Lake Erie islands from there. There’s Put-In-Bay on South Bass Island and Kelley’s Island, both of which are fun. (You can rent golf carts once on the islands to drive around and there are a lot of fun little shops, etc.) The only issue might be the airport; it’s relatively close to Cleveland airport, but it is far away enough that you would probably have to rent a car to get there. (Although, with Cedar Point being such a big tourist destination, I’m guessing there’s some sort of shuttle bus that goes to and from Cleveland airport.)
Shayna
We went there years ago as a family and I remember it as being a lot of fun. Also in the area is the Cincinnati zoo which is marvelous.
Shayna
Oops – sorry I mixed up my parks — Kings Island is near Cincinnati, not Cedar Point (oy!)
Kimbo
King’s Island is a lot of fun, too, though! And the aquarium in Cincinnati is a fun family place, as well.
RR
I live in the Cincinnati area, and there is a lot to do: zoo, King’s Island, Newport Aquarium, Museum Center, etc. It’s all a little spread out though, so you’d have to have transportation.
Delta Sierra
www. homeaway.com
We’ve used this website several times, and never had any grief. A group of us is planning a week-long trip next year, we will likely choose something from here big enough to sleep all of us in reasonable comfort and privacy. It will still be cheaper than a hotel and we are talking about hiring someone to come in to cook for us, if the home-owner can recommend someone.
Ellie
Was going to suggest renting a house in Orlando/kissimee. Close to disney, outlet shopping, an hour from the beach. Everyone does what they want during the day, and then meets up for dinner, and to hang out at the pool.
MelD
I would not recommend Orlando in the summer. The weather is just brutal. Even now in June it’s already reaching into the mid 90s. Theme park lines are extremely long and for many you’re out in the heat for a long time while waiting. The outlets are also all outside, so you don’t get too much relief there either.
K3L
Have you thought about one of those Wilderness water parks? I saw one in maybe Wisconsin that was absolutely huge. It seemed like there were tons of things for kids to do, and should be able to accommodate a big family without you feeling like the odd ones out. I assume there’s water recycling there, but I’m not certain about how eco-friendly a resort it is though …
KZ
I’m going to throw in a plug for my home state, Georgia. The coast is actually really nice and depending on where you go, not that crowded. When I was a kid, we always went to a barrier island named St. Simons, and I would also recommend the neighboring island of Jekyll (slightly cheaper and has a water park that’s fun for kids). There’s always the Savannah area, too. It’s a bit of a drive from the Atlanta airport, but you can catch a short flight from Atlanta to the local airport (Brunswick).
My parents have also been going to Charleston, SC and the surrounding islands (Isle of Palms and Sullivan’s Island) in recent years and love it.
eplawyer
Wore my new seersucker skirt to the courthouse to file some papers today. OH. MY. GOD. This is the most comfortable skirt I have ever worn. I now want a whole suit. However, I will be moving from DC to Texas by next summer. Can all ya’all Texans let me know if seersucker is appropriate court wear there? I think so, but would like to know for sure. Thanks.
Lyssa
I don’t know Texas, but I see seersucker in Tennessee all the time in the warm weather (Personally, I think it looks silly on men, which is where I usually see it, but cute on women.) Texas is, if anything, warmer than TN, so I’d bet it is very common.
dd
who made the suit?
ceb
I live in Houston, and it is VERY appropriate here. I wouldn’t wear it during trial, but you could wear it for any other appearance.
ceb
p.s. The “y’all” also works well here.
RoadWarriorette
I live in Austin, and my bro-in-law is a lawyer. He wears seersucker on a regular basis in the summer. Of course, Austin is a bit more casual than other Texas cities.
@Lyssa I agree that seersucker looks better on women, but he is one of those annoying people who can wear anything :)
Ariella
Is this a “yes” or a “no” for a business bag?
http://www.crystalynkae.com/troubadour-tote-c-55/black-troubadour-tote-bag-p-169/
I realize it’s not leather and has a “shine” to it. I am planning to use it to carry papers back and forth from home to office, and might bring it to depositions. I guess I would characterize it as a small briefcase.
C.Z.
I would say a definite no. It’s too trendy looking with the ruching-like detail, and the material doesn’t look rich enough to use as a business bag, in my opinion.
Eponine
No. You’d be better off with a simple canvas tote than something like this if it’s just for hauling files, but really, you should get a briefcase or a structured tote. It doesn’t have to be expensive – Target usually has suitable fabric options.
MM
Sorry, but I have to say no, not professional. Definitely not for depositions. That said, as far as everyday office use … I couldn’t describe to you the briefcase or purse used by a single one of my female colleagues. So I sort of wonder about how much one should worry about the bag looking professional in the office.
lawDJ
I don’t know if it’s inappropriate, but you could get much better stuff for $180. Kate Spade has a leather tote that can be usually found on sale for that amount. But I second a briefcase if you’re going to use it a lot.
NYC
So many objections! I think it would be fine.
Anon
I think it would be fine too, though I’m not sure I’d pay that much for a non-leather bag.
Anonymous
I think it’s fine. It’s not my style, but I wouldn’t even notice if another attorney was wearing/carrying it at the office or at a deposition.
S
Frankly, it’s very high school.
Lynnet
We went to very different high schools.
anon-ny
I don’t see any problem with it. It is black and mostly simple. The only time I notice what a woman is carrying her stuff in at court or depos or otherwise is if she is hauling around a purse plus a tote bag. I just don’t see the point of both and it usually looks a bit awkward. And a few weeks ago I saw a female attorney carry her purse with her to the podium in court when her motion was called. It looked awkward and unprofessional. Otherwise, find something that is functional first, but also aesthetically pleasing to you. I use a large, black, basic leather Coach bag (no tacky logo anywhere to be seen). It holds a lot of legal size folders, is easy to access and big enough to hold my wallet and keys and anything else I might need in court.
houda
The inside is nicely organized but the outside looks rather cheap (I mean it in a nice way)
AC
I really don’t understand all of the negative comments. It looks just as professional as any other purse doing double duty as a briefcase. That being said, if the primary function of the bag is to carry papers, get a briefcase. The bag might look professional enough, but wrinkled papers do not.
I actually own a Crystalyn Kay handbag that I used as a purse/diaper. It has held up beautifully through two children and is even machine washable. (Show me a leather bag that can do that!) As for the price, you are paying for something that 1) is not mass produced and 2) made in the USA. I might be alone in this, but I get a lot more joy out of carrying a bag that is not one of your typical status handbags.
AC
*diaper bag
That little typo made me smile.
Claire
Lol. I understood what you meant but it did give me a hilarious mental picture. Thanks for the laugh!
Shayna
It’s borderline — but, honestly, it looks cheap – for $180 you can get something much better looking, and better quality (and yes, you can find vegan friendly bags that look less tacky).
Kaye
Agreed – looks really cheap. I think it’s the metal studs combined with the uneven ruffle that give it that vibe.
Shayna
Yes — That’s it exactly!
Ariella
OK, OK – I get it. Won’t buy.
I am often stuck because I don’t like changing purses, well, ever – and I want a bag that can do double duty. I often bring work home, and also don’t want to carry two bags. Right now I have a nice Kate Spade tote, but it is starting to look a bit tired and was looking for something new.
LawyrChk
I found a fantastic leather tote at Brooks Brothers last season at only $100 for the same thing (it’s the only bag I take to the office and is large enough to bring home files and carry the essentials (wallet, umbrella, sunglasses, etc.).
This one is only $76 and looks great in person (saw it at the store)
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=473&Product_Id=1437360&Parent_Id=1034&default_color=BLACK&sort_by=§ioncolor=§ionsize=
CJ in CA
Dang it! I love it! And I just bought a dark green tote to satisfy my purse wardrobe!
Katrina
I just bought the Brooks Brothers tote as well!
fresh jd
Some post-interview advice please:
It’s been 2 wks (2 Fridays ago) since I interviewed for my dream post-law school job. I got the interview because the dept. head atty spoke at a panel at my school, whom I spoke to after and solidified the contact. However, the job description has a 1-yr post-jd job experience requirement which I obviously dont have, but my many internships during school were very relevant and I made sure to emphasize this. I also have a masters degree,which I thought would be a good substitute. The interviewer was a very junior guy in the dept, but also an alum of my law school coincidentally. I emailed a follow-up thank you to both the interviewer + the dept head who referred me to HR for the interview. I may have been the first one they interviewed, but I am getting antsy and wondering if no word means no job offer :(
I don’t want to seem desperate and email them asking if they filled the position (it could be too soon). Do I just sit + wait? Do I email the HR lady who originally scheduled the interview to ask what the interviewing/hiring timeline is? Ahh, I hate this waiting game! I am sure that with so few legal positions all overqualified, tier-1 grads and laid off attys would flock to this position too. Any advice? Thanks!
Eponine
Sit and wait. After 3 weeks, I think it’s acceptable to email HR and ask what the timeline is and if you can provide any additional materials in support of your application.
divaliscious11
Its normal to be antsy, but hiring timelines vary. the hiring folks may have lots of people to interview, and they also have their own billables to meet so if they are working on a big deal, making hiring decisions get pushed to the back burner… Hang in there and good luck…
Shayna
I would e-mail them now — if they’re still deliberating, showing you care enough to follow up is likely a good thing. If you do e-mail them phrase it as an offer of additonal information — something to the effect of: Please let me know if you have any additional questions or concerns about my background/skill set/etc (pick your word-of-the-day) – not “did you hire someone else”
Biglaw Refugee
Agree – don’t position it as a request for information, but rather as an expression of your continued interest. If you can supplement something you talked about during your interview (or even forgot to mention but think is relevant) that might be a good excuse. Another option is just to send one of the interviewers a link to a news article or something that relates to something you discussed, if you got a sense of what their interests are, just saying “Thought you might be interested in light of our discussion about X. It was a pleasure meeting you and I do hope we’ll have a chance to work together.”
There’s a good chance this will prompt them to give you a status update, but don’t outright ask for one unless you can tie it to a decision you need to make, e.g. you have another offer. Otherwise, you will make them feel guilty and/or burdened, which will not help you in a close case. You want to come across as someone who is focused on their needs and interests, not yours.
I think contacting them is a good idea because if it does take a long time, they may assume that the people they interviewed first have found other positions or lost interest. They may anticipate an awkward conversation if they give you the offer. By contacting them without asking for anything, you seem patient and understanding of the realities of the business world, but also keep yourself at the top of the pile.
Kit
Two weeks is too soon. At this point you will just annoy them. If they want to hire you, they will contact you. Interviews usually take several weeks. They aren’t going to let you know anything until all interviews are complete and they have had a chance to make a decision. If you come across as pushy or needy it will be a big turn off and they will likely pick someone else.
MM
My sister was having some job-threatening difficulty last week getting a license from the state regulatory agency (the usual bureaucratic nightmare, not a substantive problem). She was also very busy with her last set of finals and papers for her advanced degree. When she called my mother in a bit of a panic, my mother offered to call the agencies for her, network with my sister’s supervisors, and/or call the state senator to try to get some pressure applied. My sister’s immediate response was that it was entirely inappropriate for someone else to get involved, and particularly so when it was her mother. (This was also my response when the conversation eventually got back to me.) My mother was extraordinarily put off by the response. Long story short, my mother — who does have a career as a grant-writer, and operates in the business world (albeit in a small community) — thinks it is entirely appropriate and normal for her to offer to do business tasks like the above for all of her friends and family.
So I guess my question is: who is right? Sister or Mom? This has somehow turned into some serious family drama, and I’m curious what thoughts are on the issue of third-party involvement in professional issues like the above.
The licensing situation has now worked itself out, btw, so my sister is fine.
Eponine
Unless your mother had a connection who would be able to fix your sister’s problems with one phone call, your sister was right. But I suspect the issue is bigger than this one situation – Mom probably feels as though her daughter is all grown up and acting like she doesn’t need her family anymore and wants to do what she can to help her little girl, while your sister probably feels like Mom treats her like a kid who can’t do anything on her own. Can your sister make more of an effort to let your mom help her in other ways and make your mom feel like an important part of her life? It might make your mom happy just to make her dinner, hem a skirt for her, etc. Or is your mom normally a smothering type? In that case, can your sister have a heart to heart with your mom and get your mom to give her a bit more space while still promising to maintain a close relationship?
Incidentally, I had a similar problem once, and my dad was able to fix it with one call to his representative, who was on the relevant committee (mine wasn’t) and was incredibly helpful to me. I don’t think it would have been okay for your mom to make multiple calls and essentially do your sister’s job for her, but if it would have been a simple affair like this, your sister may be overreacting and she should work on accepting help when she needs it.
Caroline
Totally agree with you/your sister, MM. I would be MORTIFIED if a parent intervened in my career in any way — potentially less so if it were a sibling or friend, but your mom’s getting involved would, to me, reek of your sister just taking the ball and going home. I can’t quite put my finger on why, but getting mommy or daddy involved in a professional dilemma strikes me as, well, completely UNprofessional. I’m sure your mom was just trying to help, which is sweet, but your sister did right not to take her up on it, in my opinion.
CW
I agree with your sister.
The only time I would think it would be remotely appropriate is if your sister needed some basic administrative tasks done (VERY basic – like looking up the appropriate contact person online, but not making phone calls, or anything that required your mom to talk/explain the situation to others).
Otherwise, it just seems like mommy is helping her little baby out because her sweet darling is just oh-so-overwhelmed and can’t take care of herself.
I don’t think ALL third-party involvement in professional issues is a bad thing (your boss, your firm, etc.), but I think having a parent do it raises the question of whether the individual is mature enough to do… well, anything.
The family drama is probably because of your sister’s tone in response to your mother’s genuine offer to help. Your mom’s heart was in the right place.
TGIF
On substative grounds, Sister is right. But if Mom thinks she is right, I have to wonder if Sister doesn’t invite this sort of intervention in other realms of life and now Mom is confused about why this is different.
Something doesn’t sound right here and my clues are:
* she called your mom in a panic
* this has escalated
* you have somehow been called in to arbitrate.
First advice to all: let it go. Esp. since it’s fixed, life it too short to stay stuck in something like this. But phrases that might help them avoid future dramas include: fight your own battles, encourage independence, set boundaries, cut the apron strings, let baby bird fly the nest, etc. For you, my advice is: avoid getting in the middle.
(I got my PhD in this stuff at the very same Family University you are now enrolled in.)
MM
You are all so perceptive — yes, there is a history of problems between my mom and sister. Sister grew up a bit late (well, frankly not really late at all in the grand scheme of things, but later than her ridiculously lame big sister (me)), and doesn’t get the credit she deserves for where she is now. And mom is a bit flighty and often has bad advice, so my sister isn’t always the most tactful in responding. (Why she still asks for advice from my mom, I don’t know. I stopped long ago.) I am involved because both independently called me asking for advice on the licensing issue and their conversation came up. So they will continue to fight and I do get involved trying to smooth things over and help each see the other side. I was trying to extract that problem from the equation (though I happy to take advice on it as well!).
I think I was just very confused by my mother’s advice: how could she reasonably take the position that making calls for my sister (or anyone else) is professional and appropriate?
Shayna
I agree w/ the other responses with the caveat that sometimes it’s not what you know, it’s who you know – so if you mother could legitimately get through to a state senator or regulatory agency and get your sister what she needed, then it would be foolish to take the chance of not getting the license. I moved back to the town I grew up in – where my father also grew up, and his mother, so I get the Family Connection experience far too often. The line I draw w/ my dad’s involvement is whether or not it’s an outcome I can achieve on my own, and what the professional fallout would be in either achieving or not achieving that outcome…
TGIF
MM – Hah! I’m so not surprised that you are the big sister! I didn’t want to assume that, but I guessed it because occupy that same role in my Family University. Sister (aged 41 now) grew up neither early nor late. She’s just done it selectively, accepting help when it’s convenient or useful but angry when Mother “butts in” with an unsolicited opinion or advice. For her part, Mother doesn’t understand why Sister is unable to meet life’s challenges but doesn’t see that her constant intervention has facilitated the helplessness.
Anon
If it’s something a secretary could do, then your mother could have done it (just not revealing that she’s the Mom and not a highly trained professional calling on behalf of her employer).
divaliscious11
Unless your mother made the initial contact for your sister, that is a HUGE NO!!!!
Delta Sierra
If an employee’s mum phoned me about something business-y, I wouldn’t be pleased at. all.
fresh jd
Not sure if anyone watches that show, but this situation reminds me of an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond where the mother faxes a letter to the FBI where her police detective son is trying to get a job. It was hilarious.
I agree with Eponine: Unless your mom has some political clout and can take care of the issue in a few minutes flat, having her simply take care of the bureaucratic red tape and networking on your sister’s behalf would probably diminish her professional image – before she even starts her job. I wouldn’t take that risk.
EM
The skin on my legs is gross–little ingrown hairs and scabs that won’t heel. How can I get silky smooth legs? What sort of professional would I consult? I got a blank look when I asked my dermatologist about it.
CW
I’d love to see responses to this as well.
I have a bunch of bumps on my legs (like razor burn, but not), and am constantly trying new things to get rid of them (shaving more frequently, exfoliation, etc.), to no avail.
FEF
This won’t help EM, who doesn’t shave, but it might help CW or others, so I’m posting it anyway. I used to have a huge problem with bumps after I shaved. They did not look like traditional ingrown hairs, just small bumps, but I realized that they were (my hair is fair and very fine, so you couldn’t really tell the hair was in there and they didn’t get irritated like ingrown hairs sometimes do). I thought the solution was shaving more often or buying razors with more and more blades (it seems like they add a blade every year), but nothing seemed to help until someone who had similar problem told me that she had solved the problem by switching to an electric razor. You have to shave more often, because it doesn’t get as close, but this also prevents ingrown hairs. Since the 2-3 week transition period after switching, I have had practically no more ingrown hairs.
RR
I cannot for the life of me remember the name of it, but there is a dermatological condition that causes your hair follicles to be more pronounced. I have it. My mom has it. My derm told me that 50% of my children will have it (and my son appears to). It sounds like this may be your issue, and there is really no solution. Exfoliating and moisturizing, along with a little self tanner, are about the best I’ve been able to do.
Anonymous
I used to have this problem when I shaved my legs too often (esp. during the summer). Purchased the no!no! hair remover a fews weeks ago and I am noticing a difference, a lot fewer ingrown hairs. Also, if you use a razor to shave, make sure you change the blades often because a dull razor can cause ingrown hairs.
ugh
I also have the no!no! and noticed that it worked well initially but than the effectiveness tapered off pretty quickly. I can pretty much use the blade on half a leg before i have to switch. has that been your experience? i wonder if i am not using it correctly?
Anonymous
Yes. The blades do wear out quickly (I can only use it a few times) and there has been residual stubble after each use. I usually have to follow up with an electric razor. The manual says it takes time for the product to decrease your hair growth….I’m going to give it more time before I give up on it.
lawDJ
I don’t know about what professional to consult but here are some ideas.
It sounds like your shaving regime might need to change. Are you changing razors often enough? Using shaving cream? (not that it’s always needed but it might help). Perhaps you need to exfoliate before shaving and put cream on. Also you might need to shave less often (at least for a little while) while this gets better.
BTW – this product is really great for ingrowns and scabs. You apply after shaving: http://www.tendskin.com/. They sell it at Sephora and I think Amazon.
K
Second the rec for tendskin. I use it after waxes and it helps a lot w/ ingrown hairs.
houda
I have never ever shaved my legs or armpits so i’ve never had ingrown hair.
I think you should scrub your skin gently very often to remove dead cells and then when it comes to hair removal go for waxing. It does hurt and take time and can sometimes get messy, but you get baby smooth legs for weeks.
Also each time after you scrub but some light lotion on your legs (not the thick variant as it might clog the pores) and massage.
Ex-3L Sarah
^^2nd. I wax my legs, and once a week exfoliate with a scrub. I also exfoliate the night before/day of a wax. Exfoliation also gets rid of ingrowns.
ES
Any good suggestions for products? When I think of exfoliating, I still think of the St. Ives stuff from high school. It’s probably time to move on…
j29
I’ve tried probably dozens of exfoliating products, including fancy brands and the generic st ives, as well as loofahs, …and nothing else works as well. I always feel smooth and clean after I use it, more so than any other brand. I use it on my face too.
Anonymous
I exfoliate just before shaving & use Body Shop’s scrubs. They smell yummy and are great for this.
dre
dermadoctor’s KP duty!
j29
those of you who wax, isn’t there an “in-between” period where you have to let the hair grow out so it it long enough to get “caught” by the wax?I have never done it, always wanted to try, but haven’t yet. DOes the hair grow in softer/less noticeable?
ES
I have noticed a HUGE difference in my hair. I’m very pale with dark hair, and it’s really thinned it out (I’ve been waxing for about 10 years). I do find that it can be a pain to wait in the summer, so I tend to wax through the winter and then wax/shave during the summer. I also wax my arms – definitely not worth shaving, but waxing makes a difference.
Shayna
I loofah w/ body scrub before shaving which I swear by for smooth skin – no scaly dry patches, and use a shaving cream when shaving – and I always – always – check to make sure that the blade is still sharp. it’s important to make sure it’s not dull or rusted (a risk if you leave your razor – as I do – in the shower)
Eponine
Switching from shaving to using a depilatory fixed this problem for me. I use Veet for sensitive skin.
Moni
I second the depilatory recommendation. I don’t have a preference, but make sure to get one that comes with a little scraper (don’t know what it’s called) to “scrape” the hair off. Makes it super easy to remove the hair without having to touch the chemicals.
AIMS
EM — it could also be your lotion. What do you use after shaving? A lot of body creams are irritating & could be making this worse.
I would recommend Eucerin or something else made for very sensitive skin. It may help.
Anon
It may be keratosis pilaris — bumps because your follicles get clogged with keratin — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratosis_pilaris
I find a lotion with lactic acid helps clear this up. Lac Hydrin Five worked like a charm, but I haven’t seen it in my local drug store recently.
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=16937&catid=10401&aid=337953&aparam=lac_hydrin_five_moisturi&CAWELAID=61249256
Delta Sierra
I have kinda scaly shins with the occasional ingrown hair. Only thing that really gives me smooth skin is my own home-recipe exfoliation. Get into the shower, put on a thin skim of jojoba oil, maybe half a teaspoon each leg. Rub with regular table salt. Wash everything away in the shower. Trader Joe has bottles of j. oil for $6, lasts forever.
Have also lately been using j. oil to ‘wash’ my face, as the skin there is very dry. Pores seem cleaner than before. Rub in a little oil, then hold a facecloth wrung out in hot water up to it for a minute, wipe off. I go through a lot of facecloths, but I like the result.
EM
I haven’t shaved my legs in over a decade. I switched to the original epilady when it was new, and I think that was the culprit. When I realized it just wasn’t working (and it hurt) I gave up and did waxing. About a year ago I bought the new version by Braun, and it does a great job, but my legs never did “heal.”
I will look into the tendskin and exfoliating recipe posted above. Thanks!
cj
Yes – I was thinking about posting about the oil face washing method this weekend! I just stumbled on it about 2 weeks ago while I was procrastinating on bar studies (just like right now), thought what the heck, and have been washing my face with 25% castor oil/75% olive oil every day since. It was a huge leap of faith to smear oil on my face but it has been amazing!
I had pretty dry cheeks, but my nose and sometimes chin kept breaking out. And visible pores on nose prone to blackheads, which I think were maybe getting more clogged because my skin was dry? Anyway, I swear the pores are cleaned out and looking much smaller already, plus my cheeks are smooth and soft. If anyone else is interested google “oil cleansing method.” Happy weekend!
Anon
I bet your lashes are lush now too! Castor oil is great for them
la peagoise
second OCM. my good friend is also my esthetician and when i went in for my facial yesterday she remarked how well moisturized my skin was and how much easier extractions were on my acne-prone skin. it’s nice to switch to something so cheap after using peter thomas roth for months! my skin is MUCH more “glowy” now, and i’ve noticed that despite the ridiculous heat and humidity down here, i don’t get nearly as oily during the day (thanks to being properly moisturized). it’s definitely worth a shot.
dc lday
thank you for mentioning the oil cleansing method! i had never heard of it before and just gave it a try. my skin feels awesome!
MelD
What razor do you use? I found that switching to a men’s razor solved a lot of the problems I have. I find that lotions with AHAs also tend to help prevent ingrown hair because they remove the dead skin cells.
LYA
Any lotion w/ glycolic acid will help. Be forewarned, it can make your skin a lil’ sensitive, and they DO sting. Dermstore dot com carries the neostrata line, which I highly recommend.
lala
Derma Doctor’s KP duty scrub and lotion!
Prosecutor1
I have the same issue. May not be caused by shaving. It could be what I call “chicken skin” . The skin on my legs always look like they have goose bumps. It is a condition called keratosis pilaris. Keratin plugs your hair follicles. I got the same look when I went to the derm. She said , “it’s just because you are so fair”. Well it’s not, and when I mentioned the disease she said that she would do some research. Right now she has me on a Tazorac. Good Luck!!
RR
This is what I was trying to think of in my comment above. My derm took one look at me and said I had it. But our pediatrician has no idea what it is when I tell her I think my son has it.
PW
I used to have this problem. It isn’t perfect now, but I agree that tendskin really helps. Also, if you can afford it, laser hair removal makes things worse initially as the hair falls out, but eventually will result in no hair at all, or much much less, and will allow your skin to heal. Other than that, just try to leave it alone and don’t make matter worse by picking at it. Waxing is terrible in my experience, as is anything that removes the hair completely but doesn’t prevent it from growing back– it just starts the ingrown cycle all over again.
anon23
To the woman looking for advice going to Saudi on business, I found this blog and thought you might enjoy reading it:
http://saudistepfordwife.blogspot.com/2007/07/great-abaya-debate-head-vs-shoulders_24.html
K
Holy moley, just reading that one entry makes me SO glad to live in the US!!!!
SR
Ditto. I feel so lucky to be a woman living in the US. While I would consider traveling to countries with such strict rules, like Saudia Arabia, I would suffer if I had to live there for extended periods of time.
Old Lawyer Lady
Really, how different is this from our debate over whether a suit is conservative or formal enough for court, office, interview, etc.?
Sarah MC
Any tips for doing your own performance review? For the first time in my career (six years out of college), I have to do a formal review. My boss wants us to do the first draft ourselves, then meet with him to discuss, and he’ll complete the final version that gets submitted to HR. I don’t want to sell myself short, but I don’t want to overshoot, either. I feel like I don’t have enough perspective. Complicating matters, I spent two months this year on maternity leave and while I’ve been back for a few months, I don’t feel like I’m back to my pre-leave productivity levels yet. (Nighttime nursing = constant sleep deprivation.) Before I had the baby, I put in long hours, created a new tracking system, developed a training program, and trained 50+ people across the organization. Any suggestions for how to proceed?
Shayna
My company is big on these… You have to be ready to brag, so no modesty!!
– Dollars are important – your boss’s boss may have no idea what you do all day, but he knows what saving $250K means. Ideally every accomplishment should have a $ amount attached to it.
– Stress the points that are outside your job description – if you worked on a special project, specify
– If you took the time to do anything for professional development – webinars, certifications, grad classes, etc., list it
It sounds screwy, but just doing your job description isn’t very impressive – they expect that – so 10% of what you do – the weird stuff – will be about 70% of the write-up
anon-ny
I had to do one of these a year or two ago and it was pretty intense and took a lot longer than I anticipated. Is there a form you are filling out with questions? Does your company/firm has any type of outline of skills you should have at any particular level? What about a busienss plan, do you have one or have you seen any relevant to your field that can act as a guide? I recommend focusing on the positive and not worrying about the ramp up time you are currently in post-maternity leave. I had to do a miniature update on my self-evaluation near the end of last year when I was at a career low in billables and I had a hard time not internalizing it and feeling like I was personally failing. Focus on the the achievements you have outlined and be honest about your goals for your future. This is also an excellent opportunity (if not painful in the process) to sit down with your boss and point out your strengths and where you hope to take your career. Before you even get to that stage I would solicit input from your boss and other co-workers as well. They may think of things that would never cross your mind. Good luck and think big picture – not your current, short-lived sleep deprivation situation and you will do great.
cj
It won’t help for your eval this time, but I think this is a helpful idea for those who have to self-evaluate in the future. Also probably great for preparing for interviews:
http://lawshucks.com/2010/03/the-me-file/
Basically, she recommends keeping a file with a record of all your accomplishments, times people complimented you for a job well done, etc. Because I think in things like self-evals, it’s really important to give specific examples.
Shayna
This is very true – I have a reminder on my calendar every week to enter new accomplishments on the computer – and as they happen I scribble them down on a notepad. Take no risks when it come to remembering important details :-)
houda
Dear corporettes ;
Something nice happened to me today and I think there is are no better friends than my corporette group to share it with. Today I have just received my first invitation to a high profile event since I started working less than a year ago.
Disclaimer: I am not American, so I am seeking more knowledge from an American perspective.
I received an invitation to attend the 234th independence day of US at the consulate’s residence in morocco (btw morocco is the first country in the world to have acknowledged independence of the US, so the celebration is always special here).
The invitation is high profile (no electronics, high security, screening at entry) and it says “Dress: Business attire”, it will be from 6 to 8pm.
I don’t feel like wearing a suit and I have this one dress I got from Dillards it’s a satin/silky Parameter dress, in deep teal (between blue and emerald green), sleeveless, knee length and fully lined in white.
What kind of footwear would go with such a color? I am dark skinned (think Halle Berry)
Since this will take place at the US residency, I would like to have your tips on what is good American etiquette (I know French etiquette but not American one).
For the dress, are there any specific faux-pas that are frowned upon, do people come in a specific color palette (like red, blue and white because it’s national holiday)?
Do I have to wear a cardigan with the dress or is it OK to bare my arms, they are nicely toned and frankly the only part I like about my body.
Hair, do I have to pull it back in a bun? What is the protocol? (I have natural African hair that is manageable), and if it is customary to say specific things for that occasion like happy independence day, or congratulations or something along these lines. At such functions, am I expected to bring some gift?
The other problem I have is about my business cards, I have a steel business card case that took a lot of beating and looks funny so I have three options:
1. Take my beat up case anyway and risk looking frumpy (but still with a case)
2. Toss my business cards directly in my clutch
3. Put them in my wallet – it is made of Uruguayan cow (with cow hair) so it is a nice conversation starter but pulling my walled from my purse is a bit awkward…
4. Buy a new case that would be cheap
What do you think ladies, all comments are welcome.
Eponine
We say happy Fourth of July or happy Independence Day. Do not bring a gift as your host will not be allowed to accept it, but do send a thank you card. If the event’s held in someone’s home and your host is married, the thank you card should be addressed to both the host and his wife (or the hostess and her husband, as the case may be).
I’ve been to a lot of events like this, albeit none in Morocco or anywhere in north Africa (although I have been to Morocco). Your dress sounds perfect so long as it does not show a lot of cleavage (since it’s business, not cocktail, attire). You may look a bit more feminine than the American women present, as American business attire tends toward suits and other conservative pieces, but that’s fine. You don’t need to dress like an American to fit in, and in most places in the world businesswomen dress in a more feminine and colorful style than Americans do.
Do you know whether the event will be outdoors or in? You might prefer to bring a shawl or cardigan in case the air conditioning is cranked. Otherwise, for an evening event, bare arms are fine. Wear your hair however you like it. You’re not going to be the only woman there with natural African hair.
I wouldn’t worry about the business card situation. I have a beat-up steel case, and no one really sees it when I slip a card out. You could toss them in your clutch – I’d avoid pulling out your wallet. But no need to buy a new case.
Since you’re in Morocco, you can assume that most people present will be familiar with Moroccan etiquette and it’s fine to comport yourself as you normally do. However, generally, Americans shake hands rather than kissing hello, and we consider it rude to talk about politics, sex, or religion with people we don’t know well. Also, it’s considered rude to talk about our personal financial situations or inquire about others, although I think that’s somewhat universal.
Have fun!
Eponine
Oh, I was going to add, most people at a formal or business event won’t dress according to a color scheme. However, people do like to wear those tiny American flag lapel pins. If that would work with your dress, and if you can find one of the ones with an American and Moroccan flag, that’d be a nice touch. It’s completely not necessary, though.
dee
oh that’s an excellent idea! showing up in red white and blue is not a good idea, but having an American-themed accessory would be appropriate & cute – a red white & blue scarf tied to your handbag, or an America-themed pin like the american flag or that fancy one that Sarah Palin wore. If it doesn’t work with your outfit thought, it’s not the biggest deal and I wouldn’t worry about incorporating the Americana.
lawDJ
Your dress sounds lovely (I’m assuming the straps are fairly wide, like close to 1″ or so). I think it’s appropriate but not with bare arms as it says “business attire” (I think it’d be fine with bare arms if it says “cocktail attire”). If you’re going to wear that dress I’d wear it with a black jacket, black pumps, a statement necklace (perhaps with gold tones) and demure earrings. I’d carry a black clutch and throw your business cards right in there. Don’t bring a bag, or if you do, check it (they’re very likely to provide that).
I think you can do whatever with your hair as long as it looks put-together (down is fine, up is fine).
Shayna
Bare arms are fine in ths u.s. – so unless you think you’ll be chilly in the air conditioning, I would not worry about it.
White sandals are my go-to ‘neutral’ for summer parties. A peep-toe pair should still be business appropriate.
Depending on the size of your clutch, think about whether your business cards will be rumpled if thrown in alone. If not, then that’s fine. If they will, I would buy a cheap, plain case for the evening – it’s one less thing to stress over.
Als0 – I’m totally envious — Have fun!!!!
lawDJ
Shayna – I don’t know if you (like me the first time I read it) missed the “Business attire” part of the invitation. I would think that bare arms are not okay in that occasion myself. The 6-8pm says the same to me (right after work), so if you would not wear your dress to work, I would not wear it here. Now an 8pm start time would indicate that your dress is appropriate (and I would even think at that point it would say either cocktail attire if it was 8-10, in which case your dress without a jacket would be perfect, or it would say black tie, in which case a longer version of your dress would fit right in).
Shayna
My understanding from collegaues who have worked extensively in that area (Morocco) is that due to the high level of heat, sleevless is much more permissible (regardless of the fact that its the American embassy – the geographic norms override)
Eva
“Business attire” to me does not mean satin sleeveless dress – but if your heart is set on it, I’d definitely wear it with a blazer or a very nice cardigan, which you can always remove if other people are in party dresses.
As for the business cards, I don’t think there’s a problem with grabbing them directly out of your clutch (preferable to whipping out the cow hair wallet, in my opinion). Longer term, you’ll probably want a new case though so to the extent you see something you like between now and the event, it’s probably a good time to pick one up.
Red white and blue for July 4th is common at barbecues, but not necessary for a formal event.
I don’t think a bun or any other particular hair style is necessary – just wear it in some sort of manner you’d consider neat and appropriate for, say, a job interview.
I don’t know about bringing a gift (my sense is no, but I’ll let someone else weigh in here) .
lawDJ
I have never attended an event like this, but based on television portrayals of these kinds of things, I would say no gift unless it’s something extremely expensive and rare. :)
houda
I’ll probably pass on the gift then..
For th business attire, the French side of the invitation says “tenue de ville ou traditionnelle” which translates as “city attire or traditional” traditional in morocco is very satin/silky shiny and colorful.. Plus I was dying to wear that dress that I bought since march, it still has the tags on it.
Eva, it’s funny because my clutch’s name is “Eva” from LV…
Longer term, I need to find something durable, because I though I had “invested” in a durable piece, but it got all beat up..
Eponine
La robe que tu as décrit me paraît parfait dans ce cas. Faut pas apporter un cadeau car les diplomates américains sont defendus de les accepter.
lawDJ
Weird! my comments keep getting put in moderation for some reason. I’m not putting any links or anything like that, I wonder if this is like the “petite” problem.
houda
by the way the cow wallet (although I do have it) was more of a joke
Fresh
Big ‘no’ to dressing in red white and blue. The dress sounds fine, but you might want to take a cardigan in case of extreme air conditioning.
Bets
Hmm…. Lot’s of questions here, and while I’m an American, I’m probably not qualified to answer all of them.
4th of July celebrations are usually the biggest (as in largest/most important) celebrations that a U.S. embassy throws over the course of a year. Because this is held at the residency, it is as much a “social” event as it is a “business” event–although the embassy staff will also tell you that it’s a lot of hard work.
This can be a great networking opportunity, so make sure you look professional. “Business Formal” is one of those annoying instructions that is really helpful for men, but less so for women. It is perfectly acceptable to ask about the dress code when you R.S.V.P., and many women will. For the guys, it means suits, no tux required. For women, you will probably see a mix of tailored suits and knee-length dresses. If your dress is a basic sheath style, it should be just fine. If it is in any way low-cut/baby doll styled, I’d pick something a little more formal. (A quick google of Parameter dresses suggests that you might need something more formal if you want to be treated as a professional rather than as someone’s date.) Also, keep in mind the kind of attire that is acceptable in Morroco; many of the guests will be locals/foreigners from other embassies.
Outside of the office (or a few specific religious contexts), no American is likely to be offended (or even care) if your arms are bare. It’s actually a style that Michelle Obama has frequently been photographed wearing; you might consider googling photos of her to get an idea of what might be appropriate, style-wise.
I’d keep accessories simple and classic, and your hair neat–for some women that means a bun, but I’m sure you know what looks best on you.
Shoes: with a teal dress, you actually have a lot of options. I’d pick a pair of classic heels, in black, navy, or dark brown, but you could also go with a pair of tan or gold high-heeled sandals if you were feeling adventurous. I’d try and stay away from anything sparkly, it may look pretty, but it isn’t professional.
I doubt a gift is required, and no one is likely to dress in theme colors. Etiquette: “Happy Fourth of July!” is the closest you are likely to get for a festive salutation, and most people will stick to “hello.” FYI, most people tend to refer to the holiday as the “Fourth of July,” rather than “Independence Day.”
Americans tend to shake hands instead of kissing on the cheek, but many of the guests will be European. Other than that, French etiquette should serve you just fine.
As for the card case, Americans are much less formal about business cards than most cultures. If you think your beat-up old case is too battered for a nice event, you can toss your cards in the purse. Just make sure that they won’t get dirty rubbing around w/ your pens, lipstick, etc.
I hope this helps!
Congratulations, and have fun!
Bets
Posting a link w/ pics from an event at the U.S. Embassy in Argentina. (I know, I know, it’s not Morroco, but it should give you some sense of what to expect fashion-wise.)
http://halfbreedoutlaw.blogspot.com/2009/03/palace-tea-party.html
houda
Thank you so much all for the tips, and pictures. I feel blessed to belong to such a distinctive group of over achieving women.
Actually my dress is very conservative, now that I googled the PArameter dresses, they don’t look like the one I have.
Mine is very understated, very high neckline and covers all the back and doesn’t have straps.
Bare arms are OK in Morocco, even for muslims like myself (we have moderate Islam, so wearing such a dress is OK);
I have a black BCBG maxazria blazer like one that was posted recently, or I can quickly buy a small shrug or short jacket.
By the way, I am the person who went on a shopping spree in march during my visit to the US, so I tried to get as many staple pieces as I could.
I will let you all know how it goes
anon
Have a great time! I’ve gone to a dinner at an ambassador’s houses while I lived in DC, it was an amazing and wonderful experience. The dress code for that was also business attire, but most women wore dresses, and men wore collared shirts, some with ties, some without. It wasn’t very formal.
NYC
Love this post and I agree with everyone’s advice. Congrats on the invite, I’m sure it will be a lovely event! I would wear pumps or a peep toe, rather than a strappy sandal. That will keep it more “business” attire.
Also, we don’t say anything in particular on independence day. People in the US might say “Happy Fourth of July.” I think “Happy Indendence Day” would be very cute, but it is not a common saying like, say, Merry Christmas.
MM
You didn’t solicit advice on the dress, but I worry it’s not appropriate. I did a quick google search of Parameter dresses and, although I don’t know what yours looks like specifically, none of the ones I looked at communicated “business” or “professional.” Given that this event is only two hours, from 6-8, it does not seem like a “party-dress” event to me. If you want to network, it’s always better to be over-dressed than under, especially if — as it appears from your post — you are younger. (I assume the reference to “traditional dress” in French is to be considerate of the host country’s way of dressing, not to make the American dress allowed more casual.)
Bare arms are not inappropriate for modesty reasons, but just not very professional. If your dress was otherwise staid and professional, you would be fine with bare arms for this I think, but if the dress is a party dress (as yours sounds), adding a high-quality cashmere will help make you look more serious and professional.
No rules about your hair; just something polished. Wish people a “Happy Fourth of July.” Don’t bring a gift. Buy a new card case or keep them loose in a small clutch.
Chicago K
Everyone gave great advice – just one small thing to add regarding shoes. I don’t know what types of flooring would be common in a Moroccan home, but make sure that your heels are wide enough to comfortable stand on tiled floors and plush rugs. I have a super hard time with small heels being unstable on ceramic floor tiles and sinking into people’s carpets. You don’t want to be stumbling around while trying to hold a drink, hand out business cards and talk to people.
houda
Thanks for the tip on heel, actually I was planning on wearing teh simplet pump from Sofft shoes. it is brown, very understated and comfortable. And you are right in morocco we are crazy about marble floors and thick carpets (and inside grass and pebbles for the indoor fountain) so I am very likely to be walking on some hazardous terrain
SR
Houda – I used to work for the State Department and the biggest social event of the year is the 4th of July party! I’ve helped plan them and they tend to be more social than business events. The embassies I worked at were in South America and the Caribbean so, of course, very different from Morocco. That said, the overall feel of the event should be more or less the same – fun and celebratory.
Expect people from all different industries – private sector, public sector, artists, musicians, etc.
I think your dress sounds beautiful and appropriate – I wore black cocktail dresses every year and brought a brightly colored shawl in case I felt cold. I think using the clutch is fine. Metallic heels/ dress sandals would be pretty with the teal/ emerald color description. People don’t wear red, white, and blue though you may see some young kids and babies in themed clothing.
Since the event is at the Consulate General’s residence it’ll be less formal than if it took place at the embassy. I wouldn’t bring a gift, but definitely send a hand written thank you card to the hosts.
Have a great time and make sure you report back to us!
houda
Thank you so much for teh advice, it is great having tips from an ‘insider’.
So I called teh consulate both to RSVP and check teh dress code, the lady said that tehy wrote business attire to make sure people won’t dress casual , but that there would be a various range of dresses.
Now I am feeling much more comfortable wearing my dress.
I went yesterday and bought a set of cards and matching envelopes from clairfontaine so I will send a thank you note.
D
Ladies,
I just got notice yesterday that I have a phone screening interview for a job I am really interested in! They have had over 300 applicants for this job and are phone screening the 30 they have selected to move forward with before deciding whom to bring in for personal interviews. It is for an in-house assistant legal counsel position.
Any tips for a phone screen interview? I am thinking it will be important to try to convey a personality over the phone, perhaps inject a little humor where appropriate, have some questions myself and have a 1-2 minute speech about who I am and why I want the job if I am asked. Any other tips? I would love to hear feedback about others’ experiences. Thanks!!!
Fresh
Careful with the humor. Very difficult to get the tone just right.
houda
I never had one before but I can thing of couple things:
First, you want the place to be professional “sounding” so you might want to go to a remote room where the interviewer cannot hear doorbell ringing, or dog barking or kids screaming. Also, you should inform the people around you taht you would be having a phone interview so they would keep quite and avoid bringing in friends or crying babies.
Second, I would skip the jokes (I am bad at telling jokes) sometimes what you say jikingly won’t get through because you say it on the phone without the facial expression and body language. You might offend the interviewer and you couldn’t tell because you can’t see her face either… so maybe leave the joke for later
Best of luck for your interview and let us know how it went
Ex-3L Sarah
(Although I haven’t had a chance to try it out) I’ve heard that wearing a suit/dressing like you would wear a suit for a phone interview gets you in the right mindset. For me, it’s a lot easier to make sarcastic jokes in my pajamas than it is in my brooks brothers…
dee
I read somewhere that you can actually hear people smiling over the phone – something about how your voice sounds when your lips are in smile-position or something. So, remember to smile, I guess.
As for humor, I wouldn’t crack jokes, but I am naturally kind of a silly person and sometimes try to inject little bites of humor. Like a few days ago a colleague called me very early for him (9am here, 7am there) and I said, Wow it’s early for you. Him: That’s how I roll. Me: Early. You roll early. OK, so maybe it was funnier when I actually said it, but I would try more quips, fewer jokes.
Suze
Congrats! The phone interview is (mostly) easier than it sounds. Get away from all distractions, if possible stand up while you are speaking (you will project better), DO NOT USE A CELL PHONE and be very careful with the humor (let your interviewers set that tone, and if appropriate, follow their lead very conservatively). Watch the hmms, uh-huhs and nervous laughter. If you can do it and stay focused, make notes as you can – it might help at the end if they ask for questions, whatever, you can take 30 seconds and have follow up material (more easily than in person =)).Good luck!
KH
The good thing about a phone ivu is that you can have all your resources arrayed in front of you – resume, the job description, summaries of projects and experience you want to highlight, and your open and close statement – so that if you get “lost” while speaking, you can reorient yourself. That said, be sure you don’t read.
Good luck. My experience is that to get past this round, you have to demonstrate that you can do the job. The next step is demonstrating that you are the right person and fit for the organization and culture. That said, I’d wait to display personality until you are on-site. Visual clues – both those you pick up and those you put off – will be much clearer face to face.
A.
Congratulations!
I had a phone screen interview recently, and it was pretty painless. I agree with the suggestion to smile – I think that it really does make a difference in your voice. I had a lot of paperwork scattered around on my desk for easy access to information (one of the advantages of not being seen), but I really didn’t need to refer to anything. I’d prepare (write out) a few decent questions in advance, just in case.
I considered the concept of dressing for a phone interview just as you’d dress for an in-person interview, but I ended up wearing jeans. As a result, I think that I was more comfortable during the call.
Good luck!
Shayna
Make sure you’re somewhere quiet and with no distractions, that way you can totally focus on the interviewer.
Careful with any colloquialisms – they can’t see your face or any hand gestures, so humor and quips are harder to get across.
Suze
Here’s the question: self tanners? I avoid the sun like the plague, would never do a tanning bed and my legs are sheet white – not a great summery look. I would love to hear what everyone’s experience and recommendations are – spray tan, drugstore, high end cosmetic counter – what’s the word? Thanks in advance.
Ariella
I’ve used the Jergens self-tanner/moisturizer with good results. It smells a little funky after a while, so I put it on at night. FYI, I am fairly pale (blonde and blue eyed German ancestry – ach!) and I still use the “medium.” After about a week to ten days of regular use, I look like I am “golden,” which is the goal. Good luck!
s in Chicago
Tan towels from Ulta are great for body. It only takes a few seconds to apply and dry, and there is no awful lingering scent like lotions.
Miriam
I use the Jergens line of self-tanners. I would use the medium one on your face because exfoliating/face cleansers can take away from the effect.
mille
I think I’m going to cry. A week or two ago, I gave a bunch of suits to my husband to take to dry cleaning. He put them in a bag. That bag, instead of going to dry cleaning, went to goodwill.
Thousands of dollars worth of suits and nice dresses, gone.
Cry.
Ex-3L Sarah
OH NO!!! That’s beyond awful!! I’m so sorry :-(
SF Bay Associate
My heart sank so fast to read this. I am crying with you. I am so, so sorry. Any chance you can go to Goodwill and rescue/buy it back?? Call them!!!
Anonymous
Oh no….I am so sorry. Can’t you trace them/explain mistake?
AH
I don’t comment often, but this one tugged at my soul. It is just something that would happen to me. I’d love to know, though, since you used passive voice with the most important sentence–who sent them to the wrong place?
FinanceMe
OMG -I am crying for you! That is my biggest fear come to life. At my Goodwill things might sit in a bag for a week or more before they sort them out. Get into some sweats and run – don’t walk – over there prepared to search.
Good luck.
SF Bay Associate
I’d also call all your friends and have them on standby meet you at Goodwill to assist with searching. If it turns out as badly as we all fear, at least your friends will be right there to take you out for (a lot of) drinks. Hopefully it will turn out ok… please let us know!
AC
Funny, I would be kind of happy if this happened to me. Perfect opportunity to go shopping without having to justify to the hubby why you need the new clothes.
(My husband wears scrubs as his work uniform and now can’t conceive of why I would need more than 3 shirts, 3 pairs of pants, 3 skirts and 1 suit. Don’t even get me started about the shoes. He has also lost touch with how much clothes cost. Man thinks that a pair of pants should cost around $30.)
Ex-3L Sarah
^^ This was my second thought. My third thought was about my (finite) bar loan, and how unfeasible even hundreds of dollars on new suits would be right now. I hope the OP finds her suits / can get new ones soon!
Erin
How long ago? I volunteer with a shelter that takes donations and there’s usually about a month of lag time between receiving a donation and actually sorting it. You may be able to get them back – it’s worth giving them a call. If you do get them back, it’d be good form to make a decent donation ($100 or so).
Delta Sierra
mille – awful awful awful. Mr Sierra once up and did a load of washing, something he never does. He threw a random pile into the washer, then the dryer. Of course it included 3 very nice silk sweaters I’d recently bought on serious sale. They shrank to teddy-bear size. I hung them over the banister for a couple weeks, in silent (well, after the initial outburst of bad language) reproach to him.
mille
Husband took it to goodwill. He put the dry cleaning into the same type of bag we put donations in, and forgot. The bad thing is that we drop off our donations at a truck, which is then taken to their central donation center in the nearest big city (2 hours away), so my clothes are likely scattered amongst 15 different stores.
On the brighter side, I am pregnant right now and probably couldn’t fit into them anyway. I am sure I’ll have fun shopping for new suits once the baby comes. A chance to update my suits without guilt. My heart just sank when I realized what happened. Not a good first day of vacation!
CFM
Oh that’s a silver lining! What great motivation for getting fit after you have the baby (and congrats!)
AC
Also, your suits are probably going to make someone who really needs them very happy. Dressing professionally is difficult (as evidenced by the popularity if this site) and it is even harder when you are on a limited budget. Just think, your suit might just help someone land their first job!
Experienced
Know, as AC says, some ladies will be thrilled with your accidental donation and Goodwill will benefit as well. Enjoy the wonderful gift you’ve given!
KH
What a fun “baby shower” you can have – I’d love to register at Nordstrom than Babies ‘r Us!
Also, just left my husband in the other room thinking “Thank (*p that wasn’t me!”
Anonymous
Congrats on the baby…and this is great timing (silver lining, anyone?). You can get a new wardrobe once baby’s out and you’ve lost the weight etc etc.
Wendy
Ladies, I am in desperate need of advice regarding a difficult work situation.
I graduated law school last year and have been with my current firm for just under a year. It is a very small firm – 3 lawyers total and 2 legal assistants. One of the legal assistants is my direct supervisor’s (who I will call A) girlfriend…. they are in each other’s office with the doors closed several times a day. I’ve always thought this was inappropriate but never said anything because I assumed it’s part of the small-firm territory.
Over the last few weeks, things at my office have gotten unbearable. I am having a very difficult time dealing with A. A constantly makes sarcastic remarks about how I don’t seem to be doing any work or how I’m taking 5 hours to do something that should take 5 minutes. He will also make comments about me being “uptight” or “too serious”. Whether he’s trying to be funny or not, I’m at the point where I am so taken aback that I don’t even know how to respond. A will give me projects but not give me the details or direction to follow through with it. If I try to set up a time to talk to him, he brushes me off because he is “too busy”. However, I then get blamed for not following through or completing projects. If I attempt to do something without asking him for direction and there’s a mistake (which as a new lawyer, I’m sure I make my fair share of mistakes), I get blamed for not asking in the first place. He’ll ask me what the status is on a matter when he’s never assigned that matter to me. It’s like he is purposely setting me up for failure.
The other issue is with A’s girlfriend, the paralegal. If I ask her to do something and she’s too busy to be bothered with it or if she does something incorrectly, I have a hard time saying something because she’s A’s girlfriend.
As I mentioned, there’s another attorney, B… B and I get along fine and we have a good working relationship – but A and B are buddies that go way back and I just don’t feel comfortable enough to approach him about his.
I feel totally stuck and helpless. If I say something, I am 100% sure it will make the situation worse. I think A is already sensing that I’m not finding his “jokes” funny and I feel like he’s constantly trying to push me to the limit.
I do everything I can to be a diligent worker and I try to remain calm and professional when I’m at the office. But it’s getting more and more difficult everyday. I don’t know what to do. This is the first job I’ve ever had where I come home in tears. I constantly feel anxious and depressed about my situation. I don’t have any mentors here and the legal community here is pretty small so I don’t want to risk talking to the wrong person. I wish I could just resign, but I can’t afford to do that.
I’ve already started looking for something else, but we all know what the job market is like. I have to try to hang in there for as long as I can because I need the paycheck, but I need advice on how to make things bearable.
Please help me ladies. Any words of wisdom or advice?
Claire
Yikes. I’m so sorry that you’re in this situation. First, I absolutely agree that you need to look for a new job. This firm sounds beyond dysfunctional–God forbid A and the paralegal should ever break up (AWK-ward!) They both sound incredibly unprofessional to start with–I imagine they’d be a nightmare. While you’re in the process of finding that new job is it possible that you can turn to B to answer questions you have about cases you’re working when A tells you that he’s too busy? Also, and I don’t know if this is something that you’re doing or not, is it possible to phrase your requests to A in a manner that imparts the grave necessity of your question? I’m think along the lines of “Hey A, in order to successfully complete Project X by such-and-such date, I must have more information regarding Topic Y, asap please!” With the paralegal girlfriend, and again I don’t know whether you’re doing this or not, perhaps phrasing requests to be less request-y and more of an order (though not in a rude or bossy tone). Such saying substituting “Please do Task C. I need it done by [insert date here]. Thanks.” Instead of something like “Hey paralegal girlfriend, do you think that you could do Task C by such-and-such date?” If none of that is even remotely helpful….perhaps imagine the expression on A’s face the day you give your two weeks notice whenever you feel like you’re ready to pull your hair out? Sorry I don’t have anything better for you. Hang in there and remember that in ten years when you’re a seasoned attorney you’ll probably look back at the awful first job you had out of law school, think “Ugh,” and laugh. Perhaps you’ll even have some good horror stories to share at dinner parties.
Amy
This is a tough situation, and I feel for you. It’s really hard to be stuck in the middle of something like this. I had a boss once who did a lot of what you’re describing and I know it can make it difficult to even get out of bed in the morning.
Whenever I get into a bad situation at work, I try to look at what is positive, and see if I can build on that. So let’s look at what’s positive in your situation:
– You have a good relationship with B, and he seems to think you’re doing OK.
– Despite the limit-pushing and the constant sniping, you haven’t gotten fired yet, and there’s definitely other people they could have brought in by now.
– You haven’t blown a gasket or otherwise done something to compromise your professionalism, despite the high-pressure situation.
I really think the best way to handle this in a way that doesn’t rob you of your dignity or sanity is for you to confront your boss, head-on. I am not a huge fan of the Come to Jesus meeting in most circumstances, but sometimes there’s just no other way to handle the problem in a way that gets results.
I would set up a formal meeting with your supervisor. Send him a meeting request and mention it several times. “Don’t forget our meeting tomorrow.” “Remember we’re meeting at 10:30 tomorrow.” Do not let him reschedule or blow off the meeting. When you get into the meeting, say that you wanted to meet because you need clarification about some of the conversations you’ve been having with him, and you want to “get on the same page” about your work, your performance, and ongoing expectations. Then pull out a list, with specific examples of situations, things he’s said, and what you did to address his “concerns.” I would just put your cards on the table, and explain that you have significant concerns about things that are being said and the way job assignments are being handled, and that you feel like both of you need to lay some ground rules for working together, to ensure that client needs will be met and that tasks will get done the right way, on time and within budget.
Don’t involve B, and don’t bring up the girlfriend. In regards to the girlfriend/assistant – you say you “have a hard time” saying something because of the relationship. I am going to gently suggest that while she’s probably giving off vibes that are not conducive to open communication, you need to get over it and give her direction. If she still screws up, or openly defies you, then it’s time to go to A or B about it. But in this meeting with A, don’t bring it up. This is about the dynamic between you and him, period.
Expect him to deny that he said things, say you’re taking things too seriously, or otherwise dissemble so it nothing is his fault. He may even say he thinks you’re doing a great job. If he does, then I would say “that is nice to hear, but then some of the comments I am hearing from you don’t make sense, and they have caused me a fair amount of confusion. I would appreciate it if we could have more open communication about tasks and my performance.” And then outline your expectations for what “open communication” looks like.
Now. Here’s the thing, and I’m sorry to say this. I don’t think this meeting is going to solve your problems. A jerk is a jerk is a jerk and it’s very rare that they change. A has power in the office – he’s sleeping with a subordinate and he’s buddies with the other boss. He has control over you and he is exercising it in inappropriate and hurtful ways. Generally, people who do that kind of thing are not doing it because they want to see you improve; they’re doing it because they can and because it makes them feel good to make other people uncomfortable. I don’t see the dynamic changing and I don’t see A changing his ways. Having the meeting, however, puts you “on record” as trying to do something to rectify the situation and be proactive. It does not have to be a weepy complaint session about A unless you let it go that direction. Be polite and be receptive but also be firm. After the meeting, send him an email recapping whatever you said and whatever conclusions were reached. If you feel it is appropriate, you can copy B on that email, but tread carefully there. If you haven’t already started it, this email is the beginning of your paper trail about an ongoing pattern of problematic behavior from A. It’s tough, in a small business where there’s not an HR person to go to, and this is basically the co-owner of the firm. But – he is a lawyer and so I would imagine, somewhere, in the back of his mind, he will recognize this for what it is, the beginning stages of a possible claim against the firm. Whether or not that leads to a behavior change, I couldn’t tell you. But at least you’re on-record now about having a problem and trying to fix it.
I did this exact thing with my Boss From Hell, three times. Once one-on-one, then with our division head in the room, then with HR involved. Each time I had documented instances of inappropriate conduct that were backed up by witnesses. Each time he professed a desire to start over with a “clean slate” and create a better working relationship. That never happened. I ended up solving the problem by leaving the company, which I did not want to do. But unfortunately, I had gotten branded as a “problem employee” and had very few options for moving laterally within the company, which I did try to do. In retrospect, I probably spent too much time trying to make it work when I should have cut ties and moved on, but I was either trying to conceive, pregnant, or had a newborn through this time and it never seemed like the “right” time to leave – until the right opportunity came along. I would advise you to try to get out before things degrade to an unbearable point, like your health starts deteriorating. Taking less money or moving can be worth it compared to having a job that makes you want to take all the sleeping pills in the bottle just so you don’t have to face another day at work. At the end of the day, remember this: you cannot change other people, you can only change yourself. Hoping a grown adult will come to his senses and treat you appropriately after (most likely) many years of bad behavior is probably overly optimistic in the extreme.
Hang in there, but have a backup plan for what you will do if you have to leave before you find another job. I’m sorry for what you’re going through, and hope you find something else very soon.
Anon
Are you in Bethesda, MD? Sounds like a firm I worked for during law school. Worst job of my life
divaliscious11
That sucks, but you need to be strategic. /first when receiving a new assignment ook it over and draft your questions. If you can get a meeting, send a detailed email of your questions. If he doesn’t respond, start your work to the point you can, and then follow up another email with the questions you still need answered, plus any additional questions that have come up. Most of your questions should be factual. If they are legal, do the extra research. He may have to take you time down, but if you can document that you requested guidance that could have narrowed your search. It may get his attention if you can say, on X date I asked Y, and I didn’t get an answer etc… It may not get any better, but the upside is you WILL get better at your job.
As for the paralegal, thats a tough one, but you need to stay professional. If you give her work and there are errors etc… mark it up and return it to her. Keep a copy of the marked up version, and what you received. Keep all your records so at review time, you can document what you’ve done. Take a good look at the position and determine what you can still learn in this environment. Is there an opportunity to work with the other attorney on matters?
Brush off your resume, but be discreet in your job search.
divaliscious11
Ack. Sorry for the typos..multi tasking but this really bothered me. Its an awful place to be!
Anonymous
1. Keep looking for a new job, the market’s improving every day and you will find something.
2. Go see a therapist to talk about this situation and get some concrete advice on how to deal with it while you’re still there (or at least some support/sympathy from a trained professional).
Biglaw Refugee
I agree with all the other advice. It does sound like a terrible situation.
Re A, although this is probably 99% him being a jerk, it is also possible that the way you are asking him for information is not as concise or well-timed as it could be, making it easier for him to blow you off. When I ask a supervising attorney for advice, I try to a) put information in the header about which case and whether it is time-sensitive, b) start with a sentence giving context on why I need advice (e.g. can’t proceed until I have certain information), c) give a specific list of questions, and then d) include any additional details about what research I’ve already done or what suggestions I have. The goal is to make sure they know that it’s important to read (if it is) and then to allow them to assess quickly whether they have an answer and whether to respond by email or phone, etc.
I also try to combine multiple questions into one email rather than just ask as I think of them. Associates who do not approach things this way, and send several emails a day with subject lines like “Question” are more likely to get ignored when the supervising attorney is busy. Also, it is not inappropriate to re-send your question email and say “is there a time today when we can discuss this?”
Also, you mentioned getting in trouble when you do something without asking. If at all possible, send an email that starts with, “I know you’re busy, and although I’d love to get your advice on this I think we need to act today. If I don’t hear from you, here is what I’m planning to do.” Ask, then remind (if you have time), then tell him you’re going to act, then act.
Re B, I found it difficult to criticize legal assistants early in my career, even if they weren’t sleeping with the boss! It gets easier over time to strike a tone that is authoritative without being bitchy. I agree with others that you should give work back to her to fix the mistakes – multiple times if necessary – otherwise you encourage her to be sloppy. If it’s going to be seen by a client or the court, mention that when giving the assignment and say that therefore it needs to be done accurately and look professional.
There’s a book called “why employees don’t do what they’re supposed to do (and what you can do about it)” that I found helpful in trying to figure out how to manage legal assistants and support staff. It’s often the case that you don’t really have any power to hurt a bad legal assistant, but the book has some ideas for techniques that you can use even if you don’t have any real power. The sleeping with the boss thing is really pretty incidental – “telling on” your support staff or criticizing them harshly rarely helps in any context. You need to learn how to motivate her to do a better job.
TX Fifth Year Attorney
Wendy –
I am so, so sorry you are in this situation and hate that you come home in tears. Bless your heart, for real. I agree that it’s good to look for a new job – sometimes just doing that makes you feel like it’s not the end of the world, that you are actually doing something to make your life better. Talk to attorneys you may know from your place of worship and close friends you trust and ask them if they might know of any opening. I have gone to counseling, and it might help here. Sometimes, even though you know it, it helps to have an independent someone hear your stories and look at you in shock and say, “you are right, that is not OK.” I think, however, that you already know the thing that will really help – for you to get the hell outta dodge. I agree with all of the posters and their advice. You can certainly try to have a meeting with an e-mail such as, “I’m afraid we haven’t been communicating as well as we need to in order to best serve our clients. To that end, I’d like us to meet tomorrow for a few minutes so we may discuss your (some) concerns.” Have your list ready to go. I suggest being more general but having specifics to back it up. While I agree that it’s not likely to solve your problems, it just might make it more bearable for a little bit longer until you land the new, fabulous job. I had a super jerky boss and worked for a dysfunctional firm. Seriously, after you go through that, you are likely to have much more wisdom and compassion on the other side. Please keep us posted.
MHU
This idea is either brilliant, or incredibly bad.
To address the second issue, your new problems with A, which seem more pressing to me, consider approaching B very carefully. I would say something like “I’d like to get a reality check on the situation. This morning, A said to me that I’m being too serious. I don’t understand why he said this, or if I’m just over-reading a passing remark.” The critical thing is that you keep your statements neutral to A. Hopefully, this will prompt B tell you what’s going on. If not, offering the option of over-reading (or something similar) makes your question seem much less serious.
You’re definitely on the right track in looking for a new job. Hooking up with your girlfriend/paralegal during business hours shows poor judgment. I’m sure you’ll see it in play again. Good luck! You’ll survive, and 10 years down the road you’ll be the boss for whom people want to work.
Lawgirl
I’ve been in a horrible, dysfunctional job situation before, and as people have said, 1-1 meetings and “open and frank conversations” don’t change or alter the nature of a bad boss who doesn’t support you and appears to sabotage your ability to do good work. I was misguided in thinking that I could stay at my job if I kept my head down, avoided him, and did my job well. Didn’t happen, and the parting was not sweet (HR complaints, meetings with managers, memos, investigations, etc). The inevitable conclusion to these situations inevitably devolve into: you leave on your own or you’re let go… So put all your energies in finding another job, even though it’s hard, you don’t really have a choice, it seems..
buttercup
Any advice for a non-coffee/tea drinker who just set up a coffee meeting with one of the executives at my company?
It’s this great opportunity, she’s interested in mentoring me, and I’m super excited……..but I don’t drink coffee OR tea. And I’m young and look young, and although I can’t really imagine someone thinking to themselves, ‘oh, she doesn’t drink coffee, she’s not really mature’ — I also want to give the best impression of myself I can!
Would you judge me for ordering juice or something like that? Has this situation ever happened to anyone else? Any suggestions?
Experienced
I’m a java head who applauds you for not succumbing to a caffeine addiction. I would say no worries -just order what you like by way of juice or club soda. I would not order Diet Coke or soda, even though there is a big population that substitutes these beverages for coffee/tea. Focus on the relationship -the important thing is to get together.
Alternatively, do you drink herbal tea? Could you give it a try in advance of your meeting? Peppermint tea is very refreshing, or the lemon teas?
Erin
Just order juice, it’s fine. No one’s going to care or even remember what you had to drink.
Jen
I don’t drink coffee or tea either. I always just order juice. If anyone asks me I tell them I don’t really like either coffee or tea and they always reply that they have a coffee addiction and its just something to laugh over. I wouldn’t worry about it.
I have a similar issue with beer. Many times when going out with coworkers they seem to order beer but I really don’t like it. I normally order a glass of wine, but sometimes I feel weird about it.
Taylor
I hate it when people only drink water and I want coffee or tea. I would go with herbal tea with no caffeine.
Sharon
Why would you hate it? What differences does it make? People should drink what they like, no?
Anonymous
Honestly people will have better things to do than peer into your mug to see what’s in there! Just drink what you like!
Erin
It’s a little annoying when one person doesn’t order anything except water (I also find it rather rude to order something that’s free but still requires the waiter/barista to bring you the glass plus you’re taking up a seat in the cafe). But I can’t see why it’d be annoying for someone to order juice, soda, etc. Also, some people don’t drink any tea or coffee, herbal or decaf included, for religious reasons.
Miriam
Erin, were you ever a waitress? I was a cafe barista for about 5 years and little things still bother me! (ie: spilling sugar all over, talking on phone while ordering coffee, etc) I wouldn’t care if one person just ordered water and the other got a “real” drink as long as the tip was good.
Erin
@Miriam – yep, a waitress for 5 years through high school and college! In my experience the water orderers NEVER tip. They think they can take up space and a few minutes of your time for free. Drove me nuts. I make my water-ordering friends leave a tip and if they won’t I tip extra (and you’re right, it doesn’t bother me if they do leave a tip).
Taylor
Bingo. Drinking water and nothing else is like refusing anything when you are invited to someone’s home. It makes you appear standoffish.
Miriam
@Erin, it’s amazing how you see things differently after working in the service industry. I even clean the table and arrange the dishes nicely at restaurants….maybe going overboard.
I agree that only getting only water can seem standoffish, but if you are engaged in the conversation I don’t think it would make a difference. Just do whatever you feel like doing, not such a big deal.
Chicago K
I agree that is can be annoying to go out to eat or for coffee and have the other person not order anything (or just get water).
To me, it says that the other person doesn’t really want to be there and is just being dragged along because I wanted to go there. Sorry, but I’ve had friends who have done this because A) they have no money to spend or B) they don’t want to consume extra calories or C) they really aren’t interested in what the place has to offer but didn’t care enough to voice their opinion.
To the OP – I totally understand that you don’t like coffee/tea (I drink both, but even I don’t want to drink them all the time), but I think you will make the other person uncomfortable and come across as weird if you order nothing but free tap water. Stick with a smoothie, a bottle of juice or get a muffin with a sparkling water.
It shows you are engaged in the situation and won’t make you stick out.
buttercup
Thanks all —- I definitely wouldn’t get water, I agree that makes it seem like you don’t want to be there. And I really want to be there!
KZ
i know the feeling. I HATE tea and coffee of any kind (and I’ve tried really hard to learn to like them since I know soda is so bad for me). I usually just order juice, and I’ve noticed a lot of coffee places also have smoothies, so I get those sometimes (Starbucks strawberries and creme… yummy.)
buttercup
It’s nice to hear from you guys, Jen and KZ – I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone in RL that doesn’t like either coffee or tea!
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
Did anyone else think the mannequin looked “pregnant”?
And before anyone goes on the attack, yes I think the mannequin looks a little on the thin side. I mean look at that, it doesn’t even have a head. My gosh.
And in an effort to say something positive as well, I do like the color and the pattern of the dress, I just think the empire waist was the wrong idea.
houda
Yes I agree, teh shape of the dress would be a bit off for my body type
Anonymous
This was funny.
Cat
at first glance, I didn’t, but then looking at the placement of one of the designs (center could be a belly button, no?), it definitely could create an illusion (together with the empire waist). I think we’ve found a Magic Eye dress.
CLL
I’m a new lawyer, and I’m in a workplace that is pretty high stress, and not particularly supportive. I imagine many new lawyers feel overwhelmed at their first job? Anyway, I have never gone to a therapist, but I am thinking about searching one out for help in dealing with job stress and self-confidence issues. I don’t want to be unhappy in a job I’ve worked so hard to get. Has anyone else seen a therapist for job issues like this? Did it help? How did you find your therapist? Thanks for any advice!
K3L
I haven’t done it, but I think if I loved my old job (super high stress, etc.), it would have helped me stay. I hope you get some good information, though. And I can’t imagine that it would hurt to have someone to talk to about the stress.
Anon
I did not see a therapist at all during my first year working in medium law, but I totally wish I had many times. The first year is incredibly incredibly stressful. If you are ever around any other first year lawyers you feel comfortable with, just mention this — I guarantee every other attorney you are with will ditto you comments. I dealt with the stress by running a lot and managing my diet (and really really trying to get enough sleep). I also vented a lot to my husband who is slightly older and more established in his career, so he could commiserate. If you do not have a friend or significant other you trust to vent to, a therapist may be a really good idea. Do NOT feel weird about this. It is totally normal and does NOT mean you have a problem or cannot handle things.
Anonymous
I’m generally in favor of therapists, and have gone to one for issues relating in part to work-related stress. If you’ve never seen one before, try to interview a few until you find one who’s a good fit, has reasonable-sounding advice and theories, and whom you feel like you can trust. Be sure to note any medical-related issues caused by your job stress — you want to make sure they take your issues seriously, so if your job is, say, causing sleep disturbance, anxiety, depression, etc., make sure you tell them.
Also, try to find someone who is well-credentialed and got their education/training from a good school. Generally avoid those with a social workers degree, instead go for psychologists or psychiatrists, depending on the severity of your problems.
A therapist won’t solve all your problems for you, but it is helpful to get a different perspective on things and some concrete ideas for what you can do at work to improve your job situation (or, if necessary, look for a new job). Talking through problems with a professional never hurts, so why not try it and see.
ES
I strongly agree on interviewing and talking to therapists before making a decision. However, my mom is a therapist with a masters in social work with some additional counseling training, and I don’t necessarily think that a better school or better degree equals a better therapist. What is most important is finding someone who is either knowledgeable or trained in your particular issue (either job-related, stress-related or any other aspect) and someone who you feel shares your world-view. Do not feel bad about talking to someone and then moving onto someone else if you’re not comfortable with them – it’s not going to help you if you have to work to communicate with your therapist.
Erin
I can’t see how this could hurt. There are counselors who specialize in stress management and your insurance should cover it. Worst thing that happens is that you see a counselor, don’t like her, and have to find another, right?
Biglaw Refugee
One of the few good things left on Above the Law, IMHO, is the occasional post’s from a guy who calls himself “the People’s Lawyer” or some such. He is a former lawyer who now does counseling in NYC. I’m not sure where you are so he might not be a good choice, but it might be worth reaching out to him to see if he will do phone consultations. Also there’s a website called depressionforlawyers that might have good resources (it sounds like you are dealing more with anxiety at this point, but treatment is similar and one can lead to the other).
I’ve tried to get therapy a few times and the hardest part was just making the schedule work. I personally prefer therapists who use cognitive behavioral therapy and assign homework exercises and make specific suggestions; others will just sit and listen quietly never saying anything; and some will want to analyze your childhood etc. Now that insurance companies are required to cover mental health, there’s no real downside to doing it if you can make the scheduling work; just change if you don’t feel like it’s helping after the first month or so.
Anonymous
I really would NOT recommend that People’s Therapist guy on Above the Law. I’ve seen my fair share of therapists and this guy just does not seem that good. He’s also fairly new to the profession, and his lack of experience and judgment shows through in his posts. The OP should definitely find someone who is older, more experienced, and not blogging about his/her patients.
v
I had wondered about the blogging about patients. I know he anonymizes details, but surely that is an ethical gray area at the very least, no?
Miriam
I’ve never seen a therapist, but have you talked to some friends from law school? If I’m ever annoyed about my internship, I try to remember that all my friends are dealing with it and it’s par for the course. Maybe your law school friends are in similar situations and can make you feel better knowing others feel the same way. (The drive, long walk from no free parking, and carrying my laptop in the heat are really the only things that really annoy me…I don’t mean to sound like a law student who thinks she knows what it’s like.)
stc
I’ve been thinking about this during bar study, and sometimes it is useful for me to commiserate, talk with my law school friends, and sometimes I think it doesn’t do us much good (we get stuck in our misery, we stress each other out). It’s a tight line for me between helpful conversations and just drowning in our own misery.
Miriam
That’s true, it can backfire. I just feel like I wouldn’t have gotten through my first year without my support team with me in the library at 2am. My best friend is studying for the bar and tells me it’s terrible! I want to send her a motivation/encouragement card and chocolate covered coffee beans!
MelD
I don’t think this is a great idea once you’re out in the workforce. Having worked in some stressful environments in the past, knowing that something is “par for the course” doesn’t necessarily mean that the stress you’re feeling is normal or healthy. I worked in one environment where people were reluctant to discuss anything positive happening in their lives for fear of hurting morale even more. I’ve had a friend so sick from work stress that doctors thought she had a debilitating, chronic illness.
I think talking to an outsider like a therapist can really help you get a handle on the stress and help you figure out whether the feelings are normal or unhealthy. My friend with the high stress was able to change some behaviors to help her get through and she also needed to go on medication. Neither of those options are available when you are talking to friends in the same situation. When I initially heard about her problems, I felt horrible for her, but there wasn’t anything I could say or do to help her.
Lola
I posted this on the post earlier this week about the tote, but I think it was too late to get any responses:
I just bought a tote on sale and want to use it as a carry-on on a plane trip. It has one of those magnetic closures – no zipper, the two sides have magnets that attract to keep the bag closed. Initially I thought that was a great idea, but now I’m wondering if it’s safe to carry my iphone near the magnetic closure. Has anyone had a problem with that?
I remember 20 years ago or whatever, it wasn’t a good idea to get magnets anywhere near your “diskettes” or “floppy disks” because it could erase the data.
I was also at a conference a year ago where everyone’s hotel keycards stopped working, and we realized that they de-magnetized when they were in the same pocket as an iphone.
Anyone have any idea about this? Or suggestions?
Erin
DC metrocards also deactivate if you put them near a phone. Phones can demagnetize sensitive magnetized cards, but I don’t that this can work in the reverse with a magnet causing the phone to be demagnetized. I googled for demagnetized phone and didn’t find anything to the contrary.
K3L
Can I vent for 30 seconds? I compete in ADR competitions regularly at my law school (Top 10 in the country for Trial Advocacy). I consistently (I mean without fail consistently) come in 2nd or 3rd. It could be a competition of 40 teams or a competition of 10, but I’m always ALMOST first. I take all the notes I get from judges, judges who have seen me consistently have told me I improve each time they see me, I have read everything I can find by the Harvard Negotiation Project, I used to be in sales (and was *very* successful) so I know I’m at least somewhat charming. I don’t know what else I can do. At this point, the consistent trend I see is that I’m heavier than the winners. The winning team always has at least one very tall, very thin female in it. No matter who is judging. I am 5’5″ and about a size 12 on bottom and 14 on top, but I’ve recently lost almost 40 pounds, so I was a 16/18. Do you think it’s really just fat hatred? Or is there something else I can focus on? I always know my problems in and out ahead of time. I brainstorm about my opposing counsel’s side before the competition to try to be prepared for everything. I come in with lots of possibilities. I never give up more than I get. I always get everything I want. I don’t know what else to do … any suggestions? (Sorry this is so long …)
NY
No, I do not think it is fat-hating. The other people are just as prepared as you are, so I think it is either 1. something non concrete that you are doing that puts people off (an air of aggressiveness, a way of speaking, etc. Something that you can’t see because its not on paper so to speak) or its 2. Something they are doing that is better than you (projecting more confidence, a warmer presence?)
Just on a side note, you have different judges every time, but you think they all happen to hate fat people? I’m really not trying to be snarky but that kind of thinking might be the problem right there. Or is that what you are self conscious about maybe? (and I say this as someone very close to the same size as you)
Also have you tried video taping yourself?
2L Student
This was my thought exactly.
Also, I’m what I believe you would call “tall.” I’m also somewhat attractive (although I’m often told that for law school I’m “hot”). I don’t do ADR but I do Moot Court. I immediately noticed that my competitors thought I would be dumb and unprepared. A few even had to pick their jaws off the floor after they saw be completely destroy their arguments. You might be making these same assumptions and I say that because you immediately think that the pretty and thin girl beating you means people only like her looks and you aren’t considering that she might just be better than you.
Your mistake might be that you 1. assume the pretty girl is dumber than you because she is better looking or 2. think the pretty girl isn’t as prepared as you (because lord knows she spends all her time doing her hair and working out).
Just know that those of us who are good looking in law school tend to work a lot harder to be taken seriously. I guarantee you I out-prepare everyone I go against, and my perfect scores at my Moot Court competitions (and the trophies I’ve received for winning) indicate that.
2L Student
*meant to say saw me
That’s what I get for posting while watching the World Cup.
Ex-3L Sarah
As a former ADR competitor and Vis coach, I mean this in the nicest way possible:
WHAT??!!!!!! No, I do not think it’s fat hatred. In Vis, the winning team will almost always have at least one tall blond-haired blue-eyed man on the team, and I’m pretty sure it’s just because the Germans/Swiss/Swedes are awesome at the competition. Although I will point out that it seems like you’ve absorbed everything you can when people give you pointers, which is good. Now observe what the 1st place people do and what makes them win over you. Stop focusing on building your own game and start focusing on building your game IN RELATION to your competitors. Figure out what your competitors are doing that makes them so successful and do your own take on it. I don’t think you’re already doing this because you say “I brainstorm, I have possibilities, I always get what I want, etc etc.” You’re so focused on your own performance/negotiation/argument that you’re not paying attention to the performance/negotiation/arguments around you. You *are* because you have to respond to them. But you need to be paying attention to more than just the words coming out of their mouth.
Coaching note: If it seems like you and your competitors are doing the exact same things, then, frankly, you’re not trying hard enough at the exercise. Make sure to really closely examine both the substance of the argument AND the performance of the argument. The judges HAVE to determine places on SOMETHING – figure out what it is. And it’s not fat hatred.
Hard Truth: Sometimes you don’t come in first. Sometimes you don’t come in first a lot. I’m assuming you still have friends and your mom still loves you. Therefore, it’s ok.
houda
I don’t even know what the competition is about but I loved your advice. Focusing on improving one’s performance with respect to others rather than thinking in isolation… something I will definitelly keep in mind
Erin
No. There’s a lot of data to suggest that subconscious (i.e. non-intentional) prejudice against obese people does prevent them from getting many opportunities, and of course there’s intentional prejudice too. But a size 12/14 is pretty average and I’ve never heard of these studies extending to the merely chubby. It is possible that a subtle, subconscious preference for the very attractive gives an advantage to your opponents, but that’s life and you just have to be that much better to counteract it.
fresh jd
If it was “fat-hatred”, then you wouldn’t be placed 2nd or 3rd either. Obviously your talents are beiong recognized and rewarded, and I really doubt that giving you 2nd place is the judges’ way to “Stick it to the fat girl.”
anony
diet and exercise
Whatever
Wow, what a unique and supremely helpful suggestion! Someone should get you your own talk show where you can dispense advise to others. They could really use it.
Eponine
I think that your insecurities about your looks and size may affect your comportment and posture and thus your overall performance, but I don’t think the judges are consciously or unconsciously holding your side against you. Just the fact that you are in fact a very average size but think you are large enough to inspire prejudice (which is real, but against the very obese, not size 12s) tells me that you’re insecure and you don’t perceive your body the way it really is. I’d advise you to work on your self-confidence.
Shayna
I’m not familiar with this competition, but there has been substantial research done on perception of women who are seen as being fat – and while 12/14 may be average, it is still perceived (particularly for a shorter woman) as being heavy — and a 16/18 even more so – I’m not hating, I used to be that size, just pointing out the facts.).
It goes back to the Depression when people who were heavy were assumed to be selfish for hoarding scarce resources (i.e. butter, meat, etc.), and lazy in the rah-rah physical fitness years subsequently. Obviously there are many factors that go into our perception of others, but visual is the first context typically and can frame our future perceptions — and let’s face it, the judges saw you before you opened your mouth. So no, I don’t think you’re crazy – but just like I don’t think a black guy losing is always b/c of racism, or his winning is due to affirmative action, I doubt that every loss/failure/etc. of every fat person is due to a misguided perception on the part of others…
CFM
See I think it is a little crazy to think that every single judge hates fat people, yet she is coming in second or third. I think its crazy to think its that, and not that the other people were better than you. I don’t think the judges are harboring Depression era prejudices.
Ray
I used to be a size 16. I am now a size 4. I know for a fact people are nicer to me and treat me better now than they used to. I think a lot of male judges (and possibly some female judges) have an unconscious bias toward liking thin, attractive, intelligent women. Having the whole package, so to speak, makes a person look like the “winner” whether or not he or she performed as well as someone else. In fact, they may just be really nice to look at, so the judges aren’t hearing what they are saying at all. The same phenomenon can be observed in hiring situations. Furthermore, type A’s like people who are perfect, and the more perfect you are, the better. A lot of lawyers are type A.
On another note, I used to do debate in college and the judges were always kinda hit and miss. I lost a lot of rounds that I deserved to win and won some that I deserved to lose. That’s why I never went the BOA route- I couldn’t stand pouring my heart and soul into something then losing because of some weirdo judge’s opinion (who merely picked the cute girl on the other team as the winner because he enjoyed watching her speak).
CJ in CA
I competed on trial teams and am also plus size.
I almost always found that winning teams were more “attractive.” It’s easy if you aren’t over a size 12 to not notice that there is at least some occasional or persistent bias there.
BUT, what are you going to do about it? I mean, it’s not like you’ve never tried to lose weight before, right? And it’s not like you’ve never heard “diet and exercise” before, right? So, yeah, it makes it more challenging. And it’s not fair. It’s no reason to give up, right?
The biggest method to combat the problem that I used was finding or altering clothes to really fit and look good. A thin girl in a too tight suit/ too loose suit looks a little off. A bigger girl in a too tight suit just emphasizes the size, and in a too big suit just looks frumpy. That really helped my confidence.
I don’t know how ADR comps work exactly, but for trial competitions there is more than one judge, but it only takes ONE judge per panel thinking you “look sloppy” or “seemed aggressive” or “didn’t seem as prepared/ put together” because of your size to make you rank 2nd or 3rd. AND, judges are constantly contradicting each other and the scoring is incredibly subjective. In practice you don’t have to be the #1 lawyer. You’ll be better than most for the experience!
Seich
Can anyone suggest a nice weekend travel bag in the $200-300 range?
fresh jd
Hey all, I’m reporting back on a purchase: I ordered and received the Shelley shoes by Bandolino featured earlier this week. I got them in the red/tortoiseshell and even tho they are not real leather, they are great for what they are and the price can’t be beat. I really think I am going to order another pair in a different color. Would love to hear how others fared!
Miriam
Just a comment on Bandolino . I have a PERFECT pair of Bandolino black patent mary janes with two ankle straps, an almond shaped toe, and they are good for ANY occasion, work, going out, dinner, dancing, etc. I hate pointy toed shoes and I have very narrow feet so the strap keeps them from falling off like regular pumps. I want to buy another pair since these are 3 years old and I wear them constantly. I cannot find them anywhere! Is the brand going out of business or just not making these anymore? I cannot find another pair like them either!
Erin
They sell online at shoewoo.com and you can also find them at sites like 6pm, Zappos, etc, and they have stand-alone stores where I live. Definitely not going out of business.
LC
Ok to make a long story short I am a new associate at a very small firm. I have been given a lot of autonomy and recognition early and I have even been told to take a brand new attorney (she was barred last week) under my wings as she transitions from law clerk to attorney over the next few months. I obviously feel very flattered that I am being looked at as having more experience than I really do. The partner asked her to do a motion for one of his cases and she asked me to review it before “turning it in.” I ended up changing a decent amount and sharing tips on how the partner would look at it. A day later I’m talking to the partner and he is raving about how wonderful she did on the motion and how impressed he is by her. I bit my tongue but it took some effort. I don’t want to be shallow or unhelpful to the associate but I was definitely frustrated. Any thoughts on how to handle this in the future?
Cat
I’m reminded of a quote about work being done best when no one cares who gets the credit… but you do want to keep some job security, understandably! IMO, the only appropriate way to bring yourself up would be almost backhanded — the next time the partner compliments your “shared” work, remind him of your mentorship in a nice way. E.g., “yes, New Atty asked me to take a quick look at it before she passed it to you — not surprised you like her work, I think she is a good learner / really does well with constructive feedback.”
Also remember that New Atty may say something nice about you to the partner herself. A one-year-older associate was very gracious about giving my work a once-over, or helping me with “where do I find…” drafting questions throughout my first year. We both work with the same partner frequently, and about halfway through the year I told the partner that the associate had been a great help and I wanted to make sure the partner knew about his efforts. Don’t know if it made any difference — but I felt better giving credit where it was due.
Claire
I agree with the above. Also, I noticed you said that YOU ended up changing quite a bit of the motion that she drafted. I’ve noticed that, for me at least, I learn quite a bit more if I have to make changes to something myself. Maybe next time instead of basically redoing her work for her, tell her what she needs to do differently and why and then let her go do it. That way it’s still actually her own work–just incorporating the guidance that you gave her. Otherwise, I’m afraid that once she gets to the point where you’re not looking everything over and fixing it for her there might be a noticeable drop in quality (since she’s still learning and you’ve got more experience than her and apparently do really top-notch work).
BTW, it’s really great of you to be willing to take time away from your own work to help out the newbie lawyer. She’ll probably be eternally grateful for your help and patience.
Cat
Claire — good point about the type of feedback. Agree.
Erin
You’re a mentor. Don’t do her work for her, but don’t undermine her by telling the partner you did the work when he praises her.
Since being a mentor is now part of your job responsibility, make sure you keep track of what you do to help her out and discuss it in YOUR performance review. But don’t do it in a way that makes her look bad; do it in a way that makes you look good for investing in her and spending a lot of time on helping her out.
Anonymous
God I have had this issue at work so many times…would love to hear what people to do handle this…
Erin
I just don’t see what the big deal is. This happens to me all the time and it makes me happy for my mentee.
I supervise summers and lower-level attorneys, and I always end up looking over projects for them and suggesting rewrites and edits. My boss knows I’ve helped them with the project, because it’s my JOB to help them. I don’t expect extra praise for doing my job. And I’m happy for them when their final work product is good. And then when my annual review comes along and part of my evaluation includes my mentoring/supervisory duties, I include on my self-evaluation “edited and revised briefs by summer clerks” or “mentored new attorney and assisted her in drafting memo to client X.”
Robin
Totally agree. More times than not you will look good if you have someone you are mentoring who responds well to your direction. If that person has what it takes, s/he will produce good quality work that you can edit and everyone will look good as a result. I assume that you billed for your time reviewing her motion? If so, your boss will presumably see that on the bill and realize you are doing what a mentor should do — helping a junior associate improve her skills.
JessC
Hey ladies,
Just wanted to let ya’ll know about a really good sale a friend told me about.
http://www.restaurant.com is offering 80% off all of their gift certificates through June 30th with offer code SUMMER.
In case some of you don’t know how the site works, basically they sell gift certificates for various restaurants at a discounted rate (usually $10 for a $25 certificate). Most of the certificates usually come with some sort of conditions attached (minimum amount of meal, no split checks, only good certain days of the week, etc.). Most of the restuarants featured are smaller, non-chain restaurants.
I’ve never personally tried it but my friend has used this site multiple times and swears that it’s totally legit. Besides, $2 for a $25 certificate? Can’t beat that with a stick…
Ex-3L Sarah
My parents use this religiously. Seriously, they will pick where they wan to go to dinner depending on what coupon deals they can get on this site. It’s kinda hilarious, but I can vouch that everything’s legit. :-)
NY
In a similar vein, I use livingsocial.com and love it. I get an email 5 days a week and I have used it only 4 times. I pick and choose but so far I have used it on 2 of my favorite restaurants, paid $60 for a 250 cross fit gym membership, and paid 20 for a 50 spa package, all on places I had been to before or heard great things about. Its worth it to sign up for the emails just to see what pops up.
(this might be for dc/va/md only)
stc
Groupon.com!
Ru
Love groupon!
Anonymous
Woooo, just got 8 gift certs for my favorite restaurants in my area for $11.20. Nice!
Erky
I have a question for all of you go getter gals out there.
Have any of you considered taking a step back in your career? I direct all sales and marketing for an international baby products company and I came to the realization a few weeks ago that this lifestyle isn’t working for my family. My husband works long hours at a big firm in San Francisco and I work long hours at my company where I have been really unhappy for the last year. We don’t have any debt except for our mortgage, and we can get by OK on my husbands salary. I just had my doctor tell me that they would recommend that I see a therapist who specializes in stress management and suggested that I make some lifestyle changes (like sleeping more, working fewer hours, exercising more, ect.). We are looking to start a family later this year and it has always been the plan that when the babies come that I would only work part time or not at all. The last couple of days I have been thinking about pulling back on my career and doing something part time now and now waiting for kids, but I would probably not be able to find anything at my career level that is part time. Has anyone thought about putting their career on pause, or scaling it back? Thinking about it make me feel nervous and liberated at the same time, and in this economy I would love to hear some other thoughts.
Thanks!
K
I have scaled back a lot since I had kids. I was actually fired by my biglaw firm while I was pregnant (!!) and (after getting a settlement) found a new job when my first was 6 months old. It is 80% time, but only 68% of the hours required at the biglaw firm. So I work about 9-5. I also work at home twice a week (I just came back from maternity leave after child #2). I do wish that I worked even less or not at all, but (a) it is not financially feasible right now and (2) I remember on a Sunday afternoon when the kids are cranky, that I am looking forward to doing some work on Monday and feeling useful and like an adult again. :) I do like having an identity outside of being mommy. It also helps that my husband works from home, so it is not at all isolating when I am working at home myself or spending time with the kids on fridays (bc he is here too).
I took a large, large pay cut to take this job, but IMO it was well worth it for the following reasons:
1. less time spent working
2. less face time (eg I can work at home, no one cares as long as I get my hours in)
3. flexibility – not only do I work from home twice/week, I can switch my days around, leave early, come in late, no one cares as long as they know where I am, I am reachable etc.
4. nobody bothers me on my day off, EVER
5. my boss is nice/not a jerk (all of my previous bosses were jerks to a greater or lesser degree, no kidding)
6. it feels like a nice place to work, not an associate factory (eg chew them up, spit them out).
Is your job such that you have people under you to whom you can delegate things? That might be a good first step. I would definitely try to seek therapy too, if your dr thinks that will help you – are you having adverse health effects from the stress of your job?
Second, assuming you want to stay at your company, look at the structure. Is there a way you could do your job with less time? What would you need to delegate? Would you bring someone else on to be your second in command to handle things when you weren’t there? In order to make these changes, what kind of pay cut would you be willing to take? As an alternative, might you be able to take a month or two as a sabbatical to recharge/improve your health?
If flexibility is not possible at your current position, I would look for other positions where PT is stated as an option. I came into my current position at 80%, so PT has always been an expectation – not like coming back PT where I had previously been FT, etc.
I would definitely try doing PT first and then thinking about putting your career on complete hold later – I think it would be less of a shock to the system to work less rather than not at all.
Hope this helps!
divaliscious11
I did after my youngest was about a year old. I left BigLaw and went in house. It took a couple moves but I found a job just as satisfying, and while compensation is not BigLaw partner, its plenty. but I don’t work weekends, or even late nights unless something big is happening. I can make my kids stuff at school without any crazy looks or repercussions. I still do what I love, just on terms that work for my family!
Suze
My heroine! Good for you divaliscious. 11 years after kid no. 1 of 3 was born, I am still trying to ‘balance’ (oxymoron) my full time mid-law job (left Biglaw 7 yrs ago, after failed experiment with p/t and other issues) and I just don’t know where the light at the end of the tunnel is, or if there is one! I feel like I am always cutting some corner, and more often than not, it is either a kid corner or a ‘me’ corner (workout anytime this month ? maybe once…). Thanks for sharing a positive experience, it’s good to know there is hope!
As for OP, I definitely think attempting PT or some scaled down version of current job would be a good bridge to SAHM – especially since the babies aren’t here yet. It will let you cushion the financial impact of the change and maybe if you are very fortunate, give you a way to preserve an ‘adult identity’ once babies are here, as one of the earlier commenters said. My $.02.
Anonymous
I switched to the nonprofit sector a few years ago and am so much happier with my 40-45 hour work weeks and cheerful, supportive colleagues. If you don’t need your income, you could always start volunteering full or part-time at a local nonprofit until you find a job or get pregnant. With the economy the way it is, a lot of nonprofits need help. My aunt quit her job a few years ago, and has worked as a consultant on and off while volunteering full time as the treasurer of a local charitable organization (she’s a CPA and finance professional so it is a perfect fit and she puts it on her resume).
There’s never going to be a “perfect” time for anything. If your body is telling you you need less stress, and you were thinking of getting pregnant this year anyway, it sounds like the stars are aligned for you to make a life change. I wouldn’t do it impulsively, but consider it over the next week or two and if it still seems like a good idea act on it.
Shayna
I moved from public accounting to the nonprofit sector a few years ago and I can second the quality of life improvement — Granted, I work for a major exempt org. (let’s face it, smaller ones don’t need their own tax dept.), but it’s a lot calmer, no billing by the tenth of an hour, and on bad days I still know that what I do really does contribute to making the world a better place – and that carries me through.
Suze
Sorry to be repetitive, but I am so happy to hear that so many corporettes have managed to find some balance. Shayna, I am jealous of your liberty from tenths of hours! And how wonderful to have that sense of ‘making the world a better place!’
Not to rant/complain *too* much…I just envy that. In corp. law/comm’l lit, it just seems like so much (all) of what we do is all about OPM (and, yeah, they do pay us for it, I know), and even though there are big problems to solve, they boil down to money (generally not that of the direct participants) and sometimes it seems like people get just a little too urgent for the circumstances – intransigent opposing counsel, scorched earth tactics, arrogant judges (and rigid artificial deadlines), crazed clients, partners who don’t behave like, well, partners….
I am inspired by your and Anonymous’s non-profit experiences. Thanks for sharing.
divaliscious11
Suze-
I am a corporate attorney and part of what I love about my job is the opportunity to part with my clients in the business development and strategy groups. I have found that they view me as a partner, and not just the “say no lawyer”. It is really gratifying…. especially when I realize this would have been my partner year, as I get dings from classmates who’ve made partner, and others announcing new gigs…. and while I have NO regrets, we all revisit the woulda, coulda, shouldas…
Anonymous
What happened with your job interviews and salary negotiation?
Anonymous
What happened with your job interviews and salary negotiation? Did it go well?
Anonymous
It’s too bad that it’s hard to scale back without kids as the reason. If I asked to go part-time without kids, my employer would laugh at me, even if I have a legit medical reason for wanting fewer hours and less stress. I guess as the others say, non-profit or in-house is the way to go.
Amy
Yes, I scaled back to part-time when my son was 2. Our lives were just too crazy – we basically had no life, we just careened from one crisis point to another. I would strongly recommend, if you’re thinking about doing this, to do it sooner rather than later. High stress can make it a lot harder to get pregnant. And trying to work in a high-stress job when you have a newborn is torturous. (Been there.) If I had it to do over again, I would have gone part-time or quit when my son was born. I missed out on a lot while I was tearing my hair out at my 60+ hour-a-week job for the first two years of his life. The best thing I can say about my life now is that it we have sanity and don’t feel like we’re running as fast as we can just to keep up. It is worth losing the extra money to have more time as a family and be able to do something simple, like watch a movie, cook dinner, give a bath and read stories at bedtime without someone having to work or constantly check a Blackberry. Good luck in your quest for balance (and best of luck trying to conceive also!).
Biglaw Refugee
I attended a lunch at my big firm the other day at which a female rainmaker was interviewed about her career. She said that during the first 10 years of her career, she worked crazy hours on the biggest deals and made partner. Then, when she had a kid, she continued to work full time but shifted to doing smaller deals and putting more energy into business development. As a result, she had more ability to get home in the evenings to see her kid (she still had a live-in nanny, mind you). As a result of those efforts, now tha ther kid is grown she is back to doing the big deals and is a major rainmaker at a major firm to boot.
My point is that there are tons of ways to scale back – change your role within your current job (even if not shifting to “part time”), move to gov’t, move to a smaller firm, etc.
I think the people you work with and the nature of your practice makes a bigger difference than the “full-time”/”part-time” designation. At my firm (in my small group), the one associate who tried part-time was not happy with how it worked out in practice. She took a huge pay cut, didn’t work that much less, and didn’t get staffed on good matters. The partners said they couldn’t put her on X or Y matter because she wouldn’t be available to do interviews on her day off. She eventually negotiated with firm management to create a position doing pro bono work and she now has rewarding work, less stress and the flexibility she needs.
Trying therapy is a good idea, because there is some stress in every job, and you may be able to change how you look at things to deal with it better. If that’s not enough, though, by all means take a step back or sideways. Stress can make it harder to get pregnant, among other things!
Rainee
Can any of you ladies recommend dressy sandals and pumps for wide feet? My heel is ‘normal’ sized but my forefoot is very wide.
Moni
Look at “comfort” brands like Sofft, Naturalizer and Clarks. They all make wide shoes, though you might have to search a little harder to shoes that suit your style. Cole Haan is also a great option, though pricier. I’ve never tried them, but Romantic Soles shoes are very stylish and come in wide widths.
Shayna
Second Clarks and Natualizer (have not worn the others) – also, Easy Spirit (they have a lot of matronly stuff, but they do have some really nice, streamlined shoes that I love for work – very classic shapes). Clarks’ has another line called Privo that’s more trendy, but very comfortable as well.
CJ in CA
I really like my Bella-Vita Wow pumps from Zappos. Nice basic shoes available in wide widths. I have a pair of sandals from them and like them well enough.
They are probably about the same quality as Naturalizer or Nine West.
AVOID Annies. They are about the quality of Payless at 3x the price.
My Softspots flats have held up really well, but I think their heels and sandals look kind of casual.
AN
I’ve had luck with Stuart Weitzman/Naturaliser/Cole Haan.
TAH
I have these from David Tate, and I love them:
http://www.zappos.com/david-tate-yknot-black-leather
They come in wide widths and the ankle strap is adjustable, so you can make the back tighter if necessary.
I also really like Ros Hommerson shoes, in general, for the selection of wide widths.
Good luck!
Lucy
HELP!! Hope it’s not too late to get responses!
I have 2 weddings to attend.
Both in NYC.
1 is for a law school classmate my significant other is friends with. Not terribly close but in the same group, kind of arrangement. We barely know the bride (she went to law school across country). I am at a loss as to how much to spend on the gift. I don’t want to be cheap but don’t want to needlessly spend too much either. It’s the two of us & I assume the wedding will be fairly formal. Is $150 about normal? $200? More? Less?
2nd wedding, is for closer friends, s.o. is in the wedding party. Does this up the ante? Are we talking $250 for a gift? $300? Is that too much?
Any guidance would be appreciated! I haven’t been to a wedding in a while & when I did go it was for really close loved ones, and this wasn’t an issue.
Thanks in advance!!!!!!
E
Spend what you can afford and not a penny more. Look at the registry, find something in your price range that speaks to you and buy it. True friends don’t keep excel spreadsheets of what their friends bought them for a wedding.
Ex-3L Sarah
^^ Agreed. No one would come after you saying, “You should have given us more!!!” If they do, let me know, and I will officially give up and become a nun.
That said, if you really want to cut a check, and we’re talking in the hundreds of dollars, my mom uses the rule of reimbursing the bride and groom for the meals you just ate. So, if the place is $75 a plate, then a check for $150 goes in the card. Personally, my budgetary means are muuuuuuuuuuuuuch smaller, so I get something (or a bunch of somethings) off the registry for no more than $75-100 (total). Actually, that’s more like $50-60. No one’s complained yet, gotten thank you cards and everything. :-)
MelD
Personally, I think the per plate rule is ridiculous today. Most of the time when I hear about an extravagant wedding, the couple’s parents are paying for it. Meanwhile, the couple typically pays for more frugal affairs themselves. Why should I reward someone who has wealthy parents and is more likely to have parents pitching in at the beginning of the wedding while penalizing a couple who has spent within its means? Furthermore, you get a lot of casual acquaintances at the 600 person blowout wedding that may not even know the bride/groom that well. Why should one spend $500+ on a gift for a couple she hardly knows?
I feel like you should spend what you can afford at a level that reflects your relationship with the bride/groom. If you barely know the couple, then it isn’t worth spending an arm and a leg on the gift. If you’re close friends, it make sense to spend more even if the bride/groom are only spending $20 a head on food (impossible in NYC, I know, but just to make a point).
v
Yeah, I agree. If anything, I’m more inclined to really stretch myself price-wise for a couple who doesn’t have much and can’t afford to throw a huge shindig because the wedding gift will probably be much more practically important to them rather than just something nice/a token of my regard. I mean, I do try to give a nice, thoughtful gift regardless, but I’m not going to deliberately spend more on a fancy wedding thrown by rich acquaintances than I am on a largely DIY wedding thrown by close friends without much means.
Ex-3L Sarah
I agree as well, but where I am, the reimbursement rule is the norm if you’re invited to one of your friends’ kids weddings. Assumption – if you’re invited to your friends’ kids weddings, the parents are probably paying for at least some of it anyway. If the kids are paying for it all themselves, the parents’ friends probably aren’t invited anyway (which is why my Mom has this rule and not me). The sad thing is that people (bride and groom’s parents) will look for something like this and then (the bride and groom’s) parents will actually complain if it didn’t happen. For serious. It’s kinda gross.
Lucy
Thanks guys! I completely agree with the sentiments expressed. I think the trouble is that the I’m not really close to either couple (though better with 1 than the other) — my s.o. is close, but couldn’t care about the gifts and whether they’re appropriate at all.
I think it’s probably right to just get what’s affordable but I don’t want to be inappropriate. I realize no one would come after us — but I just feel like there’s a rule that applies to these things & I feel confused b/c I don’t know what it is. :)
CFM
I’m 24 law school student, so my rule is $100 from me and my SO. This is prob less than what my working friends are making, but if people can’t understand its what I can give, maybe I shouldn’t have even gone to the wedding :) When I’m close to the bride or the couple, I usually try to pick something out in addition to the money that’s maybe more thoughtful or more considerate. One of my friends I know loves black and white clothes and decorations, and I found these monogramed mugs at home goods that were just her style, so I got one with her first initial and one with the grooms. Prob only $15 total I think, but I wanted to add a little extra to the $100 without valuing the weddings I go to on a monetary basis. (I.e. this is a 150 friend, this one is only a 100 friend :)
Anne
I think that the other wedding expenses you incur should also factor in. If you had to fly to the opposite coast, buy a BM dress or stay in an expensive “wedding party” hotel, I think it’s OK to shave some off the gift to offset your wedding-related expenses. For example, at our wedding we had lots of people come in from the west coast, and I appreciated their effort for this so much more than I cared about the size of the gift.
Shayna
I was about to type this — if you’re travelling and have to pay for plane tickets, hotel, etc., that’s a factor in the gifting… and if you get an inkling that you were invited with the hope that you would send a gift in lieu of intending, I wouldn’t send anything beyond best wishes.
Claire
ALERT: Whining follows.
I have billed 8.5 hours today (a Saturday…)…and I’m not done. *sigh* I didn’t even get to watch the World Cup game!
Complaining over.
2L Student
On the plus side for you, the World Cup game was anxiety causing. I had a knot in my stomach the whole time and felt like I had been punched in the stomach in the end…. It was really depressing. So I would say the experiences are probably pretty similar :)
anon
Oh, dear 2L Student … just wait until you have been practicing law for a few years, then come back and read this comment, and have a good laugh/cry.
anon2
Yep. I’m already on pace to bill over 2400+ and the partner one of my cases just sent out an email to the team that said “July will be hell. Try to cut back on sleeping.”
I billed 13 hours yesterday. Sunday.
The World Cup knockout was a bummer. My job is depressing.
Claire
Ha! “Try to cut back on sleeping.” Bet you loved that piece of advice. My sympathies.
Liz
Larger chest ARE more difficult to fit! Honestly, the way designers design tops and dresses you would think that all women were B cups.
CJ in CA
That’s exactly what they do! It’s too complicated to make clothes that actually fit the majority of body types. (I’d say most are either above or below a B, right? Even if B is the median and the mean).
Seeking more suits
Has anyone purchased any suits from Ann Taylor recently? I’m thinking of buying their navy tropical wool suit with a 30% off coupon I have, and am wondering if it’s worth it (or if I should just stick to J Crew)?
J
I haven’t had good luck with thier suts since they changed their designs. The fit me like suits from the Juniors department. For example, the pants are low-waisted and bootcut, the jacksts are narrower and longer. I am a average shaped, slim figured person and AT’s suits had always fit me perfectly until now. *sigh*
fresh jd
I bought an AT gray tropical wool skirtsuit on sale and am happy with it. That said, I agree above with J about the fitting on their pants: low-rise and very large bootcut. Neither the regulars nor petites fit me and I’m an average-to-slim build. I don’t get their pants sizing at all.
J
so you have found the skirts fit well? I kind of gave up after a few pant debacles. I will try thm!
Lucy
I just wasted 45 min at an AT store today. Very disappointing. Some of the summer pants were made from a fabric that showed every dimple on my backside — not appropriate for anywhere, sort of like a dress pants equivalent of thin white leggings for the office. Awful!
The blazers were also cut somewhat strangely — many jackets had a strange little “dip” in the front, so that the jacket was longer in the middle than at the sides — not a good look for me, and I am fairly flat fronted. So I would say, get thee to a store or check their return policy before you do anything.
MelD
I’ve gotten quite a few pieces there recently and haven’t had much problems with the pants or the skirts. I think there are two pant styles- the lower rise one and the more classic style. You just have to make sure you are getting the latter and stay away from the former.
stc
I got a grey tropical wool skirt suit there in May and love it. But its a petite jacket and I still need to get the sleeves hemmed a tad. Bummer.