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C2
Swimmers out there — I’ve found some great chlorine- removing hair products, but do you have any recommendations for face washes or moisturizers? The pool has been making my already-sensitive skin extra dry and red this summer, but I’m too much of a baby to switch to running in this heat. Thanks!
zee
Lotions: I like the superdefense from Clinique – comes in different skin types and is pretty cheap compared to the big-brand ones. I like Alba unscented very emollient lotion for body.
Face wash: do what my dermotologist recommends and don’t wash your face – use a light lotion to “tissue off” makeup or pool residue, then use the heavier lotion to moisturize.
What hair products do you recommend?
zee
*dermatologist.
yikes, sorry.
anon 3L
I do the same “tissue off” thing, but I kind of figured it out myself after 15 years of swimming … glad to hear a dermatologist would approve. In terms of what actual lotion I use, I’ve been using the Cosmedicine line for a few years and I love it.
C2
Thanks for the tip, I hadn’t thought of that! After a long search I use & adore Aveda’s Detoxifier shampoo, it’s the only thing that keeps my hair from becoming brittle & changing colors.
And since I’ve got your attention, do you experience foot cramps while swimming? I’m not sure if this is a common problem or something unusual that may require a trip to a podiatrist.
zee
If you’re just starting swimming, it’s normal to have cramps in weird places because you’re working your weakest muscles hardest (your stronger muscles can keep up). That being said, I would (1) examine your form to make sure you’re not flexing your feet funny or something, and (2) give it two weeks to let your feet get stronger if that’s what it is.
Res Ipsa
I’ll second Zee’s comment. I would regularly get foot cramps at the beginning of every season. Adding some extra potassium to your diet (bananas, spinach) can’t hurt either.
Teresa
I swam in high school and got them ALL the time! Try switching your strokes around. For example, if you do breaststroke correctly (a LOT of people don’t), your feet are flexed for part of the movement. On the other hand, if you do crawl, then you have to point your toes. So I like to switch between the two, expecially if I start to get a cramp. It is the pointing of the toes that always gets me… I used to dive off the starting block with my feet flexed and while it looked funny, it was the only way I could guaranty that I would not have to start a race with a cramped foot! Good luck!
zee
oh and also thanks for the Aveda rec – it hadn’t occurred to me to try the detoxifier.
i'm nobody who are you
the podiatrist would probably be a waste of time. cramps in the arch of your foot (assuming that’s where they are) are probably being caused by a combination of tight hamstrings and calves, not something you’re doing while you swim. stretching will probably solve your pain problem.
fwiw i was an all-american distance freestyler so i know from injuries and therapy.
MJ
All-American waterpolo player here…foot cramps are almost always, as “i’m nobody…” says, due to tight legs–calves or hammies, or even lower back. It doesn’t seem like it’s all connected, but it is. Make sure you stretch before, during and at morning wake-up/bedtime, and you will get less cramps.
And, FWIW, it’s not necessarily due to form…Some folks are just “tighter” when they swim.
Good luck!
Also, face wash–cetaphil. It takes the Chlorine out a bit, but retains the moisture. Another trick that helps keep your hair less brittle–wet it down with FRESH water before you put your cap on. Then it’s less likely to soak up chlorine water as you swim.
meh
all american breast stroker here—– could be anything from tight legs to dehydration. Stretch and drink lots of water!
Experienced
I can recommend a few really good stretches for your feet. Really helps me with foot cramps and also strengthening my ankles: 1) trace the alphabet with each foot; 2) flex your foot, point it inward and circle; 3) repeat pointing outward. Hope this helps!
Experienced
Do like 10 circles!
C2
Thanks everyone! I’ve been plagued with foot cramps for months now and never thought to focus on stretching my entire leg.
And I’m impressed as always at how accomplished this group is, in the office and in the pool!
Little Lurker
I’m curious what all you grown professional ladies think about tattoos.
Before I start getting hate-comments, let me clarify: I don’t have one, and I won’t get one, for a multitude of reasons. They’re so common among my demographic (18-25) now, though, that that it’s almost passe among youngsters to find something wrong with using a needle to etch ink permanently into one’s skin.
Is this just another case of “young people not understanding the values of corporate culture” or do you think that things are actually changing? (What will happen when all those kids have to get “real jobs”?? They’re not just for the partiers and punk kids anymore.) What might be a theoretical reason against tattoos if you get one in a spot “without danger of exposure” in the office: on the shoulder blade, say, or even lower back*?
I’d really appreciate hearing from people who grew up in places that aren’t the Mid-Atlantic East Coast, because I’m pretty familiar with the attitudes there. ;)
Happy weekend!
LL
*Growing up, we called those “tramp stamps”, and I have a hard time picturing a lawyer also sporting one, but maybe I’m just too biased here?
Anon
I don’t have one (and have no plans to get one, ever).
Having lived in New England, the South, and the Midwest, I’d say they are more prevalent in the South.
Very few people I know through work (law) have one (or have one that I know about) – most of the people that I know through my athletics do have one.
Personally? I’m not really a fan, but I think that everyone has the right to ink themselves (or not) however they see fit, as long as the depiction isn’t offensive (swastikas, etc). I do, however, think a visible tattoo immediately takes a business casual outfit and makes it look infinitely less formal.
Shayna
I am from the Mid-Atlantic area, but I work with people from all over the world… and the tattoo is pretty much universally frowned upon in the admittedly conservative tax accounting realm
Shayna
Side note – Check out the Freakonomics Blog on the NYTimes – they covered the economics of getting a tattoo and there were some interesting comments: http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/19/tattoonomics-part-i/
myohmy
There are probably people you know with tattoos that just don’t advertise it.
Full disclosure – I have a small tattoo on my mid-lower back, which I suppose you could conceivably call a tramp stamp – it’s not visible if my shirt rides up, though, so I don’t know if it counts. I kind of hate the term anyway. I chose that part of my body for a lot of (what I thought) were logical reasons – the skin on your back is least likely to stretch if you gain or lose weight, I can’t imagine a professional situation where I’d expose my mid back, so its certainly coverable (I think maybe 10 people in the world even know I have one and the people I’ve told are pretty shocked because I guess I don’t seem the tattoo “type”). I thought a lot about it (I actually had the image taped to my mirror for two years so I would be sure I didn’t get sick of it) — it’s the word “hope,” written in the characters of my native language. I decided I wanted to get it after a really tough year – I had been in an abusive relationship, my mother had battled cancer, my grandmother had died, everything in my life had fallen apart) and I haven’t regretted it once.
I can’t think of a theoretical reason behind not getting a easily covered tattoo if you want one – I don’t face any tattoo biases, since essentially no one knows I have one. I assume the only reason would be if you had a significant other or family member decidedly against it (though my family still doesn’t know…) I do think it’s really inadvisable to get a tattoo you *can’t* cover up simply if you want to, because there are so many people that have preconceived notions about what the type of person that gets a tattoo is.
Legally Brunette
I have a similar question about nose rings. I’m Indian, so culturally nose rings are very common and accepted, but I have never seen any South Asian lawyers wearing them in the workplace (my Indian girlfriends who do wear them are all doctors, incidentally). Any thoughts on the appropriateness of a small, conservative nose ring? I used to wear one and loved it, but unfortunately it ended up falling out and the hole immediately closed. I’m in Big Law, if that makes a difference.
As for the question about tattoos, I do not have one nor would I ever get one. I think they’re fine as long as they are not visible.
Anon
Regardless of whether or not it would be accepted, I wonder if a nose ring would even be permitted by most law firm’s dress codes? I know ours says you can’t have a visible piercing other than ears.
Unless it was for religious reasons (but I’m pretty sure that it is cultural without a religious significance – yes?)
AIMS
I love small conservative nose rings so I may be biased. But to answer your specific question, I think that most people (at least in NY and other metropolitan areas) are culturally savvy enough that they would understand the significance & cut you some slack if you wore one.
The only person I know who is a lawyer happens to work in big law & she has never had an issue with it. She is not South Asian & her nose ring is very small & elegant, and I think it helps that other than the nose ring, she is a very conservative dresser.
AIMS
*That meant to read “who is a lawyer WITH a nose ring”
myohmy
Being Indian, I have a feeling if you wore one, people wouldn’t even comment for fear of being culturally insensitive. At the same time, if you DON’T get one for cultural reasons, it might be bothersome that everyone assumes that that is why you have it, if that makes sense.
Eponine
Visible piercings other than the ears are not okay for a business formal environment, although if you are an Indian from India as opposed to Indian-American I think most people would write it off as cultural and not be bothered by it. If your firm is business casual, it’s fine, but you still should take it out to go to court or other formal settings and I’m not sure how feasible it is to take out a nose ring and put it back in.
Shayna
Have never seen a professional – accountant, attorney, or related professional, with a nose piercing — so I would say probably not.
divaliscious11
I know several professionals with nose rings, all are south asian or african- american, all wear discreet, small studs. I am not aware of anyone saying anything to them, could be culturally sensitivity or could be that they are really good at what they do… I think the big thing to consider is when the piercing occurs. i think if you have been working in your firm for 2 years, and then you get pierced, the perception will be less positive, than if you come in the door – people tend to be less presumtious at that point. I almost got my nose pierced in undergrad, and y roommate did – wore a tiny black onyx stud and looked like a million bucks! She still wears her nose ring….
Anon2
I think it depends on your work environment. I work for a large conservative engineering company and there are many Indian women with nose studs. A lot of muslim women who wear hijabs to work also have pierced noses. These women are present in customer meetings and represent the company globally. That said, there’s nothing in the dress code that says anything about piercings and they’re not lawyers.
Anon2
I meant to say, “these women make presentations in customer meetings” not just that they’re “present.”
Megan
I don’t know if any law firms dress codes would be okay with this. I’m only saying that because when I was younger I worked at McDonald’s and a girl was told to take out her nose piercing or go find work. She was able to convince the manager to let her put a clear stud in until the piercing had healed enough that she didn’t constantly need to wear a ring, at which point she was instructed to take the ring out.
For the tattoo question as long as you have it somewhere that isn’t visible its fine. More and more people in the legal profession tend to be getting tattoos, but you’ll never know unless you go to a gala or out swimming with them.
Basically both might be okay if done appropriately.
Anonymous
I’m Indian, living abroad in Asia, and never yet seen anyone wear it to work (banking/MNCs). Even in India, pretty rare to see it in the big cities for sure. I’d mentally think someone who wore a nose ring to work was either super traditional or “just didn’t get” the rules of a corporate career (that’s just my view, so feel free to shoot me:)
Legally Brunette
Thanks all for the helpful comments. Very doubtful that I will get a nose ring at this point, but it was good to hear the comments from both sides. I’ll probably ask my mom to get me one of those fake nose rings that I can wear when I go out if I really want a change for a night without committing to anything more drastic. Thanks!
anon - chi
I’m in Chicago and we still call those tramp stamps. I think there is still a wide variety of negative connotations with tattoos, especially on women. The ones that spring to mind (however unfairly): low class, trashy, rash judgment, lack of foresight, youthful, unprofessional. Maybe these connotations are changing slightly over time, but that is a slooooow change. I’d like to think I am relatively open minded, but I have to say that when I’m honest with myself I would also think negatively of an attorney with a big lower back tattoo.
As for getting a tattoo where it will never be seen, theoretical reasons against it are religious (in Judaism, you aren’t supposed to alter your body in that way) and aesthetic (it’s probably not going to look good forever).
Sharon
This is exactly how I feel as well (also in Chicago).
The person may be perfectly nice, but it makes me question their taste and judgment, because tattoos are just so aesthetically cheesy and unpleasant to look at, IMO. I have professionals working for me who do show their tats (we are a casual office) but I expect them covered up in front of clients.
myohmy
I forgot to add (and this may be defensive) that I have a really enormous feminist issue with the word “tramp stamp.”
I think there are a multitude of reasons to judge someone, from wearing an ill fitting suit to sky high heels to a boob job. A tattoo, if visible, is just one more reason. I think any decision a person makes, as long as it is entered into with foresight (ie, you didnt walk into the tattoo parlor and look at the wall and be like oh, that’s pretty, I want #17), thoughtfulness and care is usually justifiable.
But would I get inked in a spot visible to the general public? Nope. Would I judge someone? Depends, if it was something covered that happened to slip, probably not, if they had a big old arm or calf tattoo that wasn’t covered, it might make me question their judgment. Not because of the tattoo itself, per se, but for the same reason when I interview students for my alma mater and someone comes in in jean shorts to do the interview – no it doesn’t really bother ME if I think about it, but you didn’t know that would happen. You could have drawn someone random that it would have really offended – why didn’t you think ahead?
Agree
Yes – I’ve seen many young (late teens/early 20s) women lately with tattoos in the inside of one wrist. Either they already know that they want to do XYZ with their lives and that having a wrist tattoo won’t matter (because, really, for many jobs, it won’t), or they have zero foresight. I do think attitudes are sloooowly starting to change – but I think it will be a while before I see a BigLawyer at her desk with a wrist tattoo.
myohmy
Yeah, I don’t really understand the logic behind wrist tattoos – I know someone that has an email from each of her parents on each wrist. That’s not even small enough to be covered up! I think the tat in the image of the comments here
http://community.livejournal.com/literarytattoos/820437.html
is adorable, though I can’t imagine getting it myself. Somethign that could be covered by a watch band, maybe, but I’ve seen girls with things that are literally 2-3 inches long. I’m not a fan.
Eponine
OMG, that is SO cute. That is a great tattoo idea.
LawyerLady
I am a lawyer at a non-biglaw, but still well respected, law firm. I have a small wrist tattoo, and no one has ever commented.
Rachel
I love the “fall seven times” “get up eight” tattoo and it’s not even easy to cover!
Many tattoos (unfortunately not all) are very personal and actually mean something to the individual getting them. I would never judge a professional if I saw he or she had a tattoo accidentally peeking out somewhere.
I do think any professional who has a tattoo ought to cover it up while at work. I don’t know about the weekend- the answer to that question depends on whether the professional is likely to run into clients, potential clients, and co-workers. It also depends on how much that professional is willing to let the opinions of others dictate how he or she lives life.
Taylor
I saw a woman in court with a beautiful black suit, no hose, an ankle tattoo, and chipped red toe nails peeking out of her otherwise classy high-heel sandals. Not the best look.
AIMS
I think attitudes toward tatoos inevitably have to change because so many young people have them.
As a somewhat young person myself (29) I have to say I almost feel like its more interesting not to have tatoos precisely because they are just so common now.
My thoughts against them also have a little something to do with aging — that tattoo that looks hot now will look super sad on your droopy skin later. I especially think this about women who get tatoos anywhere on their abdomen , knowing they intend to at some point get pregnant.
There is a book of Matt Groening cartoons that comes to mind. One of the cartoons shows 2 old men in a nursing home wearing wifebeaters & long shorts, covered with sagging tatoos from head to toe. One old man says to the other, “So you were an idiot in the 90’s too, huh?”
Shayna
That’s always been my thing – how will that butterfly look at 60? But for me it’s also a religious thing – I’m Jewish, and to be buried in my family’s plot in a Jewish cemetery (or in any Jewish cemetery), I can’t have any tattoos…
Also, a tattoo is forever (or at least should be since I understand removing it is painful) – I change my hair every year or so – I can’t imagine picking a picture/phrase to be on me forever! Besides, tattoos of roses – arguably the most popular of all tattoos for women – were first used during the French revolution to identify women condemned to death – not exactly a winning image.
myohmy
I guess my response to the “that won’t look good at 60” is “Do you really think *you’ll* look good at sixty?” (Disclaimer – I know plenty of attractive older women). Your body is inevitably going to change, and I don’t really see a tattoo as much different – yeah the butterfly might look bad, but so will my wrinkly butt! And hopefully, I’ll have better things to worry about at 65 thank if I’m “looking good”.
Shayna
I’ve seen waaay too many raisin-skinned women with a butterfly or rose that looks ridiculous as a result… But like I said, regardless, due to religious reasons, I plan to remain tattoo free… Oh, and side note – pain?? no thanks!
Eponine
Not true. My dad tried to tell me that old wives’ tale too. I’m surprised it’s still being spread around.
Shayna
What isn’t true? It’s absolutely true that I cannot be buried in my family’s plot in a Jewish cemetery if I have a tattoo (any non-Jewish married-in relatives also cannot be buried there). I was told about the rose tattoo’s origins in high school by the teacher at the time
Shayna
(I know this as the lucky member of my generation voted most-likely-to-kn0w-where-the-deed-is-when-the-next-person-dies as well as voted most-likely-to-visit-the-cemetery-on-a-semiregular-basis-to-make-sure-our-plot-is-maintained)
Shayna
(and the graduate of 16 years of Hebrew School… who then perpetuated it as a Hebrew School teacher — which was hands down the best college job ever, since it paid $45/hour)
i'm nobody who are you
i’ve heard that, too. from a rabbi, no less.
Eponine
Not true that you can’t be buried in a Jewish cemetery. It’s a wives’ tale or, more likely, a Jewish mothers’ tale made up to deter their children from getting tattoos. It is true that halacha prohibits it, but anyone posting here on Friday night is probably not too concerned about that.
i’m nobody, ask that rabbi where all the tattooed Holocaust survivors are buried since they can’t be buried in Jewish cemeteries.
Shayna
Exceptions were made for Holocaust survivors.
It doesn’t matter if you post online on a Friday night or if you eat bacon every morning. If you want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, you follow halachic law. Period. To do otherwise is to commit the worst kind of fraud.
Shayna
For the record, being Jewish comes down to having a Jewish mother – you don’t become less Jewish because you go online on Friday night or like ham and cheese sandwiches… There are no degrees of Judaism. One may be more or less observant, but if you want to be in a Jewish cemetery you have to observe a couple simple rules – be Jewish, no tattoos… not that big a deal. Very true, very accurate. If you doubt me I suggest you contact a few Jewish cemeteries in your area and ask their opinion.
Eponine
Shayna, you’re wrong. I know that’s hard for you to deal with, but you are.
Eponine
see, e.g.:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/practices/Ethics/Our_Bodies/Adorning_the_Body/Tattoos.shtml
http://www.torah.org/learning/issues/tattoo.html#
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/275/Q4/
http://www.hillel.org/about/news/2007/jan/tattoos_19Jan07.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/533444/jewish/Can-a-person-with-a-tattoo-be-buried-in-a-Jewish-cemetery.htm
I could keep going, but since I’ve posted a link to a site affiliated with every branch of Judaism, I think I’ve made my point.
Salarygirl
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/17/fashion/17SKIN.html
There was an interesting article in the NY Times about this a couple years ago. I also grew up thinking tattoos were a no-no for Jews but as people have pointed out above, this isn’t necessarily the case.
Shayna
It comes down to what your cemetery association is okay with – and while there may be a few that have deviated – and there are technicalities – yes I’ve seen these sites before – my cemetery association, and the others I have dealt with in the burial of various relatives have it as a No.
Sorry – that’s the way it is — instead of trolling the internet I suggest you contact the Jewish cemeteries in your area (especially if you have a family plot that you’re planning to be buried in)
Sharon
Shayna – enough with the Jewish mother thing. Reform, the largest denomination in the US today, has held for 30 years now that Jewish identity can be passed through either parent as long as a child is raised Jewish. And there most certainly are Jewish cemeteries where you can be buried with a tattoo. They don’t check your tattoo status any more than they check for evidence that you’ve eaten ham or posted on the Internet on the Sabbath.
Shayna
Bottom line – if you want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery, call and make sure that you can have a tattoo, that you can be born to a non-Jewish mother and not convert (not true for my family’s cemetery), etc… b/c a tattoo is so not worth not being buried where four generations of my family are/will be… Just be smart about it. A butterfly might be cute today but it can have unintended consequences.
kjf
I don’t think I have a bias against tattoos necessarily. I just will never get one. I’m tired of a shirt after I wear it 6 times and a jacket after a couple of seasons. I can’t imagine wanting the same inked art for the rest of my life. I’m just not that committed to a tattoo.
Eponine
Things are changing. I have a couple of tattoos. So do some of my colleagues as well as a lot of my family members (probably a majority in my age group – I was the first, I’m sure my aunts and uncles loooove me for giving everyone else the idea) and some of my friends. I grew up in the mountain west, most of the family is in the midwest, and I work on the east coast. I think they’re more common among people younger than me, like early to mid 20s. Lawyers seem less likely to have them than other people I know, but I know a couple lawyers who have tattoos in, um, private places so you’d never know. Of course, lawyers tend to be older too, so maybe in 5 years I’ll know more tattooed lawyers.
I do think it’s important to be able to cover up your tattoos. Tattoos are kind of casual, for lack of a better descriptor, and are out of place in a courtroom or formal setting. A couple colleagues have visible ones that can’t be covered, and it’s not like I’d tell someone who already has a visible tattoo not to go into law, but it’s not great either. I’ve never heard of anyone having to cover them as part of an everyday dress code, though, so one on your arm or shoulder is probably fine so long as you cover it in interviews and court.
ps – I totally know a lawyer with a tramp stamp :). I was shocked when she showed it to me! Not her personality at all.
Laura
I’m in banking (corporate, not investment) in the PacNW and visible tattoos are banned in my company. If one has one, it must be covered during the work-day. Similarly, women are allowed one ear-ring per ear and men none. Other piercings must not be used (in other words, no nose ring in the hole) during work hours. Our dress code is pretty strict overall, but I have no complaints, as I like to look conservative.
Eponine
I don’t see how such a ban could be enforced. If a well-qualified candidate who was a perfect fit for the job had a tattoo on her wrist, say, that showed even with long sleeves, would they decline to hire her? Make her wear a bandage on her wrist? That’d be pretty silly.
Anon
I’m not necessarily supporting the strict dress code, but I used to work for a large government organization where, yes, people were made to wear bandages to cover their tattoos. One of the attorneys had a tattoo on the back of his neck which he covered with two band-aids every day.
LawyerLady
Is it just me, or does always wearing two bandaids on your neck seem more unprofessional than having a tattoo there? :-)
Eponine
Wow, the bandaids thing is nuts. I just wouldn’t want to work there.
Little Lurker
Awesome responses, thank you! I love the Corporette community, both for its thoughtfulness and its diversity.
And as to the feminist issue of the name “tramp stamp” — I agree there are certain names/words that have such strong negative connotations that I would try to avoid them. On the other hand, the concept of semantic drift can apply here as well. It’s equally offensive to use the verb “gyp” to mean “cheated”, as it applies to gypsies. (Disclosure: I used to say it until I learned what it meant.) On the other hand — how many Americans have ever met a gypsy? Also, consider the word “lame”, as in “your boss canceled your vacation? that’s so lame!”. It definitely used to refer only to the physically disabled, but now hardly anyone uses it in that regard anymore.
This is not an argument against political correctness, feminism, or the need to discuss hate speech (all of which I wholeheartedly support). And I know not every woman with a lower back tattoo is a tramp. But can it ever be OK to apply your moral standards to others in public discourse? After all, I know several women who act, for better or for worse, like tramps. I wouldn’t ever discuss them using the term, but is it so wrong that I (sometimes) think of them as tramps?
myohmy
I don’t mean to get into a pedantic discussion here, at all — and I remember learning about the term gyp and feeling a bit awful about myself. I mean, we’ve seen semantic drift in the term “tramp” itself, it didn’t always mean what it means now.
I guess I just disagree with (I suppose) your moral standards, if the standards suggest that a woman with a lower back tattoo is a tramp, in some way that a woman with a calf tattoo (or no tattoo or whatever) is not one. Granted, I am coming from perhaps a defensive standpoint. But I feel like a gendered insult, like slutty or tramp stamp (or “skank stamp” which I’ve also heard) speaks to the double standard we hold for men and women’s sexuality. Especially assuming that something like getting a tattoo on your lower back can somehow provide evidence that you are sexually promiscuous (rather than actually-being-sexually-promiscuous being the evidence) – what aesthetic standards do we apply to men that assume the same thing? I suppose what bothers me is the disproportionate extent to which insults that refer to too-much-sex, like tramp or skank or whore are applied to women and it makes me cautious of the terms in general (after all, the term “man-whore” is necessarily qualified). I see your logic, certainly, there are women that are sexually promiscuous, and if you think of ‘women-that-are-sexually-promiscuous’ as tramps, then why shouldn’t you call them that? I guess where it makes me uncomfortable is where we don’t apply equal standards to the men in our life, or feel the need to judge them in the same way (and I don’t mean you, specifically, but society in general).
Taylor
It is disgusting because there is no equally derogatory term for a man who has a tatoo. Cannot stand whenwomen call other women sluts, whores, tramps, hoochies, etc.
anon
myohmy and Taylor, I think I love both of you.
legalicious07
Wow! I’d never considered the etymology of “gyp.” I thought the word was “jipped”, but now that I know the troubling history of the word I will no longer use it.
To be quite honest, this is just one of the many, many troubling aspects of the English language. In addition to not using terms like “gyp” and “jew” with negative connotations, let’s also stop using words like “blackmail” and the “black market” and “brownnosing” (all negative terms, of course) while making exception for “little white lies” and other such nonsense.
Lynnet
I wasn’t aware that blackmail and blackmarket. I thought the connection of black with illicit came prior to the common usage of black with people with darker skin. I’d be really interested to learn more about the linguistic connections, though.
Lynnet
Should read: “I wasn’t aware that blackmarket and blackmail had racial connotations.”
Shayna
FYI – the term gypsy itself is derogatory – it came from Egyptians (where the Roma are thought to have migrated from) —
Anon2
I was in a meeting last month and someone said, “Don’t worry, I won’t jew you out of it” – needless to say, my jaw dropped to the floor. Memories of videos from Hebrew school about discrimination came back to me! I remember laughing at the videos during my middle school years thinking they were so tacky but that was the first thing I thought of when it happened. The guy who said it was completely oblivious…
Shayna
As a teenager my family and another were at the state fair and when my father asked how much something was from one of the vendors, the guy said “x dollars, no don’t try to Jew me down”… we turned around and walked out of his pavilion. Despite 16 years of Hebrew School (I guess at that point it was more like 12 or 13?), I was in disbelief… Yup, all those videos, the Jews for Jews guy that came to warn us against Jews for Jesus… had no idea I would ever experience it!
Miriam
Wow! I grew up in “jewville” and I’m Jewish. I never realized how much discrimination still occurs. In law school I was excited about getting a crunch time from a friend for free and a classmate said “that’s so jewish”. He didn’t understand how offensive that could be and doesn’t consider himself to be racist/discriminatory in any way! Come on, I’m a poor law student!
Shayna
I get so in my siblings’ faces when they crack jokes about being Jewish… because while yes, it’s okay b/c we are I still hate that doing so can feed into ugly perceptions/stereotypes
Little Lurker
Not to contradict your authority, Shana, but I just took a class on the Balkans and this is only partially true.
It’s true that that’s where the term originated, out of both ignorance (on behalf of the non-Gypsies) and out of wishful mythology (who wouldn’t want to be connected to the pyramids?), but it is not necessarily an offensive term today. It depends where the person in question is from — the populations who traveled in Western Europe are not the same as those who (literally) settled in Eastern Europe, and thus not all are descended from the same ethnic group, where it is called Roma or not.
Also, there is an increasing backlash by some members of the Eastern European population who dislike the term “Roma”, as they perceive it as political correctness being forced upon them by the white outsiders, usually well-meaning members of NGOs who want to preserve their “traditional” culture. I was told this by two Gypsies in person presenting on an academic panel about ethnomusicology.
Anyway, the moral of the story is: be careful, and always ask someone what they want to be called, if you can!
Shayna
So true — I was told this by a former client who was Roma (he indicated that he preferred the term Roma) — So are you saying that it’s preferable to use Gypsy to Roma?
Dee
I’m part gypsy, so now you met one! (Sort of).
MelD
I’m in my early 30s and feel like everyone was getting them in the ’90s to the point where it’s probably more common to have a tattoo than not to have one. Just because I can’t see someone’s tattoo doesn’t mean they don’t have one. I have plenty of friends with tattoos that are easily covered by clothing. I grew up in FL, but I also have friends from the Midwest who have them.
cbackson
Well, you probably have a hard time picturing a lawyer with a lower back tattoo because if said lawyer is dressed appropriately, you’d never see it. I’m in biglaw, and I’ve got both a lower back tattoo and a navel ring, and I can guarantee you that no one in my office has any idea.
KM
cbackson — ditto. I’m not in biglaw, but at a large boutique firm, have a small tattoo on my foot and a navel ring and no one has ever said a thing. It all goes back to dressing appropriately.
K
I think tattoos are stupid and look bad. I have never seen one that I think looks good and can’t imagine how one would. As a side note, I have a doctor friend who says that all of his older patients who have tattoos regret them.
Ru
Yeesh, that was harsh.
InkdAtty
K, to each her own. I have a large tattoo on my back that I’ve had for 18 years and I still love it. It peeks out onto my shoulder so that if I am wearing a sleeveless top, have my suit jacket off, and people are paying attention, they might notice that I have a tattoo. Now in my mid-40s I suppose I am “older” but I certainly don’t regret the tattoo and it has not hampered my career as a big-law lawyer.
happyness
AMEN Inked Divas ! You are not alone and it certainly doesn’t impact the career, that is if what you do has any substance :)
Sharon
Tattoos are like mullets IMO. They flatter no one. And it’s a shame when you see some beautiful young woman at a dressy event, she turns around and there’s some ugly butterfly or rose or whatever on her shoulder. It ruins the whole look. Yes, it’s more common now. So are saggy pants. Doesn’t make it any more attractive. No matter how educated the person is, a tattoo screams low class and poor judgment. I find it funny that people who critique fashion and shoes can’t critique tattoos. Someone, just one person, give a link to a tattoo that is an improvement over the person’s natural skin.
Robin
Sharon and K – do you have pierced ears? If so, then I think you need to examine why that is “pretty” to you and tattoos aren’t. You both seem to have strong opinions on them.
I have a tattoo, full disclosure. No one I work with has seen it. I thought about it, it was meaningful at the time. And even though its less meaningful now, I still appreciate that it was a coming of age decision. Many societies celebrate coming of age by marking the body in some way. So why not do it? You don’t have to. But why judge someone so harshly who chooses to mark a moment in time that was important to that person for whatever reason.
Sharon
Robin -yes I have pierced ears. I could also let them close up or not wear earrings if I so chose. I am not judging the person as a person — she could be delightful, charming, brilliant, engaging, loving, and first class in every way. I am judging her aesthetic sensibilities, because I fail to see how any ink on any skin is attractive. Show me an attractive tattoo. Anywhere. I don’t care if Michelangelo inked your tat. It’s still cheesy looking.
Robin
Sharon- You sound hypocritical. Whatever was in style when you were 6 is ok for marring your body, but not what became stylish later, I suppose. Luckily for all of us, we can all decide what we want to do with our bodies! And for the most part, people who don’t need to know, won’t know what we’ve done.
Robin
What became stylish later [insert: “is not”]
Delta Sierra
I’m fairly ancient now, and I have a tattoo, with a story behind it, and I don’t regret it any of it for a minute.
Eponine
Fortunately, those of us who have tattoos don’t care about your opinion.
As a side note, my 90-year-old grandma loves her tattoo, which she got at age 85. I’m sure your doctor (who shouldn’t be talking about his patients behind their backs anyway; ever wonder what he tells his other patients about you?) would be just thrilled by that.
Chicago K
I am seriously thinking of taking a lesson from your Grandmother getting a tattoo when I am in my 80’s! Don’t have any now, don’t plan to get any either, but when I am 80 it might be a fun box to check off and experience.
AN
ooh, that’s impressive! I think I may get a tattoo when I hit 80 to celebrate!!
J
wow. judge much?
E2
I must live a sheltered life and have the world’s most conservative friends and coworkers. I grew up in NJ, went to Harvard (undergrad) and now work in finance and I do not have a single friend or coworker with a tattoo that I know about and I’m on the young side (under 30). One of our receptionists has one. She’s literally the only one I know. I find these comments about how so many people have them these days pretty surprising, but maybe I just run in very conservative circles (though I would not otherwise describe them that way)?
LawyerLady
Isn’t “that you know of” the crucial point there? Do you really know all of your coworkers well enough to say that none of them has a tattoo that wouldn’t be visible at work?
cbackson
This. I’m a biglawyer with a lower back tattoo (and navel ring) that I know for a fact my co-workers have never seen. My brother (biglawyer turned in-house counsel) has half-sleeves as well as chest and back tattoos.
Robin
Only people who have seen me naked can see my tattoo. Thus, no co-workers and very few friends have seen it. Just saying, you don’t always know who does and who does not have tattoos.
KZ
the key there may be “that I know about it.” I have friends that I found out had tattoos and I had no clue because they’re not in obvious spots. Or sometimes they’re in obvious spots and I still never knew it–my older cousin has a fairly large (and rather ugly which he now regrets) tattoo on his ankle–he had it for years without me knowing because he always wore long pants/socks to keep it hidden from my grandmother at family gatherings, because she would have had a fit. It wasn’t until after she died that I realized he had it.
Equally surprising to me was the large number of friends that had belly button piercings. This was apparently a trend when I was a teenager that I had no clue about.
CatUK
Very interesting discussion…. Every two years in the UK I organise a semi formal conference for people involved in ‘body alteration’ and we discuss and explore how different people express themselves in a global context, it’s just an interest which grew into an event….
I have seen the most amazing and beautiful tattoos that are suffused with cultural meaning and heritage and denote status, authority and wisdom in a community. Tattoos which have great significance for the owner, which are an outward expression of emotion, event, thought.
Large tattoos in particular require a great deal of investment (they are expensive), trust (in the artist), decision making and thought about the design, plus the stamina to go through with the tattoo.
The western conservative lack of tattoos and piercings is as interesting as having tattoos and piercings. Instead we have designer clothes, shoes, handbags, make up, plastic surgery, hair dye….
It’s all really part of a continium of how we alter and change our appearance to manage communication from ourselves to other people, and what works for one person, in one situation, in one part of the world will not be the same for another.
MelD
I don’t think it’s just western conservativism. When I was in Japan the rules were far more strict. I had one friend get her gym membership revoked because her shirt rode up and displayed her tattoo for a second or two. Unlike Western culture, Japanese (as well as people from many other cultures) use communal baths where it’s hard to keep covered all the time. They may be part of a work event or something similar.
ES
I fully agree – tattoos have a cultural significance for many people. In the Pacific, there are traditional tattoos designs that spoke to one’s status or abilities. Many of my friends from that region have tattoos that continue that cultural tradition and feel that it is a way of keeping their (slowly disappearing) cultural alive.
Robin
Great post. When I got a tattoo, I wasn’t coming from a place of my own cultural heritage, but was coming from a place of recognizing the importance of tattoos and intentional scarring had in various regions in the world. I felt it was a way of celebrating my body as my own.
Eponine
Haha. I kept my first tattoo hidden from my grandma for a while. Of course, she finally saw it. What was her reaction? She raved about it and said she’d always wanted a tattoo. And then for her 85th birthday, guess what? She went out and got her tattoo. Really.
E2
Right, I agree that “that I know about” is key and I wouldn’t be stunned if someone at work has a covered tattoo, but given that so many others are talking about how incredibly ubiquitous they’ve become, everyone else seems to know about the tattoos on many of the people they know…. so why don’t I? Believe me, I don’t live in a little bubble with one tattoo-less best friend. :-)
mille
Not wanting a tattoo at this point makes you more of an individual than getting a tattoo does. There is nothing wrong with not wanting permanant ink in your skin. We don’t know who we will be 20 years from now, but most likely you won’t need the tattoo of the Tasmanian Devil playing volleyball that takes up half your leg. (I’m talking to you, College roommate). Having a tattoo invites judgment, especially a visible tattoo. Getting a tattoo is not your form of expression. Maybe you express yourself with jewelry, or don’t feel the need to make any statement at all. Another reason not to get tattooed is health reasons. My state regulates the health and safety of the tattoo shops, but not all states do. I think you can be comfortable knowing that tattoo’s make statements, and you don’t want to make those statements.
Some cultures value tattoos as a rite of passage, or as very deeply symbolic. American culture does not. I have many tattoos but am aware they are not accepted everywhere. In the corporate world, I would imagine they would project the message that “I have no self-control, I must express myself no matter what, I don’t follow rules or fit in”. And finally, some tattoos are truly ugly. They just are.
My work is in indigent criminal defense, so having the tattoo’s sometimes helps with my “street cred”. I have a 3 inch tattoo visible (sometimes) on my chest. I can cover it, but sometimes a deeper v-neck will show it. The partner in my firm has a tattoo around her upper arm, which shows because she wears a lot of sleeveless shirts. I’m in the process of getting more work done. I have always had a vision and wanted certain tattoos– I do my own artwork or have it done for me because I use it as a form of expression. I also think tattoos can be beautiful. I would have expected to go into an art or fashion related profession, but ended up in law school instead.
I have many other tattoos that aren’t visible in the office. I’ve taken out my tongue piercing, and also took out my nose piercing. I wouldn’t think I’d get hired with visible tattoos or piercings.
anon
“Having a tattoo invites judgment”
EVERYTHING on this website invites judgment.
Anon
I agree! I have not seen cattier bunch elsewhere! But many are very helpful too!
Chicago K
She also goes on to say she has 3 and some are visible. Having a tattoo will invite judgment, just like the clothes you wear and the way you talk and present yourself. People notice and evaluate you on these things, for better or worse.
A lot of people will think someone is a whole lot cooler cause they have rockin tats….it goes both ways.
mille
My post is a little wonky because I posted at work between phone calls. My first half is to the original poster, who wanted some reasons that a person may not want a tattoo. I can see some validity in the arguments, and have no issues with people who think that way.
I don’t think that way. I’ve been tattooed since I was 16, and have a lot of them. I see tattoos as art, and tend to judge them that way.
Miriam
I agree, but looks matter whether it’s a too short skirt, a tattoo or visible piercings. People will always judge based on looks because how we present ourselves is assumed to represent other things about our personalities. A visible tattoo can be distracting just like a skirt that is too short. The only difference is you can easily put on a longer skirt, but depending on where the tattoo is located, it can be quite difficult to cover up.
That being said, a friend in law school has a large tattoo on her arm that would be unappealing to many conservative attorneys, but she is incredibly intelligent and any firm that doesn’t hire her based on her tattoo would be making a HUGE mistake.
m
According to my tattoo artist, many of her regular clients are lawyers and judges. Most of them are men, and their tattoos are not visible when they wear long sleeves.
TK1
I have 2 tattoos and I love them. I got my first at 22 and my 2nd at 25, I had wanted them since I was about 14, no spur of the moment decision here. One is on my ankle and on is on my lower back, a tramp stamp as they say. I have no regrets about getting them (I’m 34 now) and would get another. I have work skirts and capris that expose the ankle one to work and have had people not notice the ankle one for upwards of one year. Unless you are coming to the beach with me, you won’t see my lower back one. Most people who don’t know me well would be surprised that I had the tattoos.
Anon
Wow, some of these responses are harsh.
It seems like some people assume that getting a tattoo means losing all awareness of what is appropriate in various social situations.
I have tattoos that can be pretty visible if I want them to be, but I also know how to hide them in contexts where they would be distracting or likely not received well. Not because I’m ashamed of them or regret them, but because I can generally figure out how I’m expected to present myself. I’ve been in an office where no one would bat an eye about a tattoo and am proud to show them off but am currently in an office where I don’t think the same approach would be wise. I can’t think of a scenario where I would ever show them in court. But it’s the same thing for choices I make about clothes or wearing my hair a certain way. I like to think these kind of decisions come with being a professional, tattooed or not.
J
agreed. i have a couple of tats and a navel piercing. And you know what? I am a hell of a lawyer. I dress professionally and do extremely well in court. Still going to say i am not professional because I have some ink, especially when you have never met me?
Being a good lawyer (or professional of any flavor i would imagine) means being able to put your self in another’s shoes to see and anticipate the counterargument; you need to give pro bono support to those less fortunate without judging thier life decisions, and you need to understand that the world is not only the way you see it.
Judge away, but I wouldn’t hire ya.
D
I’m a federal government attorney and I have a 2″ wide armband tattoo. As my tattooed breathren have noted, it has NOTHING to do with my professionalism or competence and I doubt that anyone who knows me solely professionally has seen it. The judgmental ones may want to consider whether it is uglier to have a tattoo or to speak harshly about those who do not meet your standards of beauty. (Also, to the person who noted it was “low class” to get a tattoo – I’m also from a working class background — first in my family to go beyond 10th grade — so I guess I have two strikes in your book.)
happyness2
Me too (on the blue collar background!). And I am in house, routinely hire… and fire :) BigLaw and am working on a half sleeve in addition to all my other ink.
We are out there :)
Chicago K
Well I grew up in suburban Chicago and here is my opinion.
I don’t have any tattoos and I don’t plan to get any. I have a fairly natural look about myself and they just don’t appeal to me personally.
That said, I think how they look on others depends on the person’s style and the tats themselves. Some people just seem to pull them off better than others. I’ve seen women with giant colorful tats look awesome. Some people…don’t look as good or they don’t fit with their style as much or just don’t have as nice of tats.
I work in banking, and I only know of one person in my whole division who has visible tats – and a lot of them. Half sleeves, all over her legs, on her chest. She also has bleached / funky dyed hair and a nose stud. To say she sticks out…well, she does. I can’t think of one other person who even has an ankle tat. She isn’t in my area, and she doesn’t have a directly client facing job (she is a fee revenue manager though, so she is in management and I would assume she has to work with large (corporate) clients face to face on an occasional basis.
Contrary to other companies, the one I work for actually has it stated in our policy that we will not discriminate against employees on the basis of tattoos or piercings. And our dress code allows it (although she is the only person I know who has either).
Myra
Bar exam question: Anyone here taking New York and New Jersey bars, and planning to commute from NYC to Somerset, NJ on Thursday, July 29? Or has anyone done it before? I’m looking for carpool/travel companion/any reflections from past bar-takers.
AIMS
I took both. I recommend just renting a hotel room. You are going to be utterly exhausted after 2 days of NY Bar. Being stress free is crucial. I split a hotel room with a friend; it was right next to the exam center, we went down the night before, slept well, had a nice breakfast & took the NJ exam. It was the smartest thing I did. I think it was somewhere around $80 each for the room. I highly recommend doing something similar.
Ex-3L Sarah
^^Almost all my law school friends are doing PA-NJ, and doing exactly this in AC. I would be too worried about driving there that day – Too many “what-ifs” that could happen that always seem to happen right when it’s the most inconvenient time ever.
cda
do NOT share a room with anyone you have never successfully shared a room with before, and even then, proceed with caution. the night before/during the bar exam is going to be a high stress time and not when you want to find out that your great friend also snores or must study aloud.
Myra
Thanks for comments thus far. I would take the train (leaving NYC around 6 a.m.) rather than driving. I’ve thought about getting a hotel, but it would be somewhat expensive and a hassle in its own right (and I would only get maybe one extra hour of sleep).
luluaj
I am a worry wart but putting my fate in the hands of public transportation was not something I could stomach the day of the bar. Get the hotel room. Not for a better/longer night’s sleep but for one less thing to worry about on your third day of intense testing.
Jen
I’m taking New York and I live in Brooklyn but I’ve decided to get a hotel room near the Javits Center so I can get that extra hour of sleep and won’t have to worry about my cats waking me up, my roommate or neighbors waking me up, etc. The main reason though is that I refuse to risk the subway breaking down. Just my suggestion though.
Totally impressed that you are taking both! I considered it but thought it would be too much for me.
Anonymous
Agreed. Please get a hotel room and really think about it before you share with anyone. When I took the bar (CA) I didn’t even share a room w/ my then-boyfriend who was also my study partner. I just knew I’d need my space. In my opinion it’s absolutely worth the expense. You only want to take this exam once, so do what you can to make it as easy as possible for yourself.
v
Yeah, there was no way I could have driven more than the 15 minutes I had to after the bar exam.
Ariella
Agreed. I took Wisconsin and NJ. Took the written Wisconsin exam and the MBE in Wisconsin, then flew from Madison to Newark and drove to Somerset. Arrived in Somerset at 11pm, got my hotel room, crashed, and got up to take the NJ written exam the next day. The hotel room was totally worth it (I could have stayed with my parents and driven to Somerset, if I had wanted to). But that amount of stress in the morning sounded awful, and it was nice to have a quiet hotel room the night before the exam.
Miriam
My best friend is taking the NY/NJ bar and taking the NJ portion at Somerset….I think. She’s getting a hotel room at a Holiday Inn or something. I would strongly suggest you do the same. The expense of a hotel is nothing compare to that of law school and taking the bar. You should probably just get a room alone so you can relax. If you want to drive with someone maybe I can ask my friend? Driving with someone might be a good idea in case you get lost or anything. And I agree with some others that public transportation is not a good idea! Good Luck! I hear studying for the bar is terrible!!!
Myra
Again, thanks all. I have waved the white flag and made a hotel reservation.
CPG
I’m presenting at a training for new employees at a CPG firm. I’ve never presented before in front of a crowd (~70 people). Any advice on presenting? Also they suggested business casual dress, so any tips on colors or style would also be appreciated. Thanks and wish me luck!
Shayna
When speaking, make sure you enunciate every syllable of every word (really, this is a good rule for speaking in general)
Make sure you’re wearing something comfortable – and if you’re prone to sweating when nervous, make sure you factor that in.
I tend to be anti Power Point, but if you need graphics, use it – but make sure you don’t read off of the slides.
myohmy
If you’ll be on a raised platform, don’t wear a skirt!!
RoadWarriorette
Make sure you practice your presentation, and speak slowly. I also always wear flats when presenting so I’m not worried about my feet hurting.
Are you creating the training? Or is it something that’s already been written?
CPG
I created the training, but there was a lot of material from past trainings that I sampled from. There were also some areas that had to be covered, so it’s more of a collaboration.
Eponine
If you’ll be standing up, wear comfortable shoes! I don’t like to be behind a podium because I tend to cling to it – I interact with the audience much better if I’m able to move around. And if you sit, keep your knees together, don’t cross your legs. I’d also advise against wearing a skirt if you’ll be on a raised platform.
I’d ask in advance what the setup is like – if you’ll be standing or sitting, if you’ll be on a raised platform, etc.
Otherwise I’d just give the usual general tips – make eye contact, engage with the audience, etc. Don’t drone on. Keep people engaged and interacting with you. Use a little self-effacing humor, but not too self-effacing. You’ll do fine.
Shayna
I would stay away from the self-effacing humor angle… I find that even a slight departure from total confidence can totally undermine your authority, which is essential to your success with this presentation.
s in Chicago
I have to disagree. Generally, I think it makes the speaker seem more relatable and helps keep people tuned in a bit longer. If you are genuine (don’t exaggerate a bunch of challenges or faults in an attempt to be funny) and your message is solid, then you’ll be respected.
Ms B
If you are short, avoid standing behind the podium — no one can see you. In that case, make sure that there will be a wireless lavalier microphone available (one that clips onto a lapel), and make sure to wear something that allows you to clip it on, such as a blazer with a lapel. I find that I hold people’s attention better when I can move around the dais or room.
Put your notes together in a way that works for you. Because I move around a lot, I use note cards or a steno pad with my presentation taped to it because they are small in the hand. If you do use a podium, make sure that all of your pages are fastened to some kind of holder (so that they do not spill apart).
Be sure to have an appropriate non-carbonated beverage with you (bubbles = belching = not a good idea) so that you can wet your throat if you need to. I hope it goes without saying that you should not chew gum or eat while presenting.
I also recommend pants for the reasons cited by the other responses. Walk any dais before the presentation to find out where the noisy floor spots or seams of the floor are so that you can avoid tripping.
Finally, wear a jacket in a color other than black or navy (I like a deep red, plum, or cream). you should be visible when speaking, especially if the presentation will be recorded on video.
Good luck!
CPG
Thanks! This is really helpful. It is going to be recorded on video, which has increased my nerves quite a bit.
Shayna
Stay away from patterns then – they don’t show up well, and pastels usually don’t look good either.
Delta Sierra
Most inexperienced speakers talk too fast, so slow down. Pause now and then for people’s brains to catch up.
Look for a few people who seem to be paying attention, and glance back at them now and then for encouragement – nothing worse than speaking to a crowd and noticing only the ones who seem bored by what you’re saying. There are a few in every crowd and it’s very discouraging. I once gave a talk at a public library and it wasn’t until AFTER that they told me most of the group were Alzheimer patients on an outing. If they’d told me beforehand I could’ve changed my focus. I’ll never forget the librarian who realised what was going on, stationed himself at the back of the room and made sure to look WOW! so interested! all through it, bless his heart.
Avoid dangly earrings, they can be distracting as you move your head around.
Lawgirl
Cute shoe. Kat, you have an amazing knack for finding sub-3″ heels (even though I personally prefer 3.5″+ LOL).
Liz
Wow, I love the delicious wine color. And I’m always ready for a cute rosette detail.
frustrated academic
I need some travel advice ladies!
My (male) partner and I are planning a 10-12 day trip to Turkey at the beginning of November–we are going to fly in and out of Istanbul, but want to take a few day trips within Turkey and one 2-3 day trip to a nearby country.
So here are my questions:
1. What places outside Istanbul would you suggest? We will have 2-3 days and a car.
2. Which nearby city would you recommend: Sofia, Budapest, or Bucharest? We would have 2-3 days and would probably fly (although the dude thinks a sleeper train would be “romantic,” I think we might turn on each other 14 hours into a 19 hour train ride!)
3. Any other tips\suggestions\sights that we cannot miss?
Thank you, in advance, to all of my fabulous corporettes ;-)
NYC
I think Cappadocia is not to be missed. It is an amazing, beautiful, unique place and I guarantee you will want to stay there longer than you planned. We took the overnight bus there from Istanbul and it was a good option. More comfortable than you would think. Have fun! Turkey is a marvelous place.
NYC
Stay at the Kelebek in Goreme. They have a lot of pricey rooms but my hubs (BF at the time) and I got a steal of a room in a little cave. This was post bar and we were broke as a joke. Bathroom was across the way, but it was otherwise lovely and you got to be at an utterly fabulous hotel. Best breakfast of my life!
anon
Cappadocia! The landscape is amazing and there is a lot of great hiking. One word of caution about the airport you will likely fly into if you come from Istanbul: the women’s bathroom is just a hole in the floor, so I might recommend a skirt if you aren’t familiar with that style of bathroom! Also, when I went a few years ago, NO ONE there spoke English, so be prepared to communicate by pointing unless you happen to speak the language. Everyone was extremely friendly and willing to work with our pantomime, though. :-)
Also – splurge on a nice cave hotel. They are so unusual and memorable. And if you can afford it, the hot air ballooning there is supposed to be incredible. We didn’t go because of the price but everyone who did said it was just amazing.
KZ
i had repressed my memory of that bathroom. though if i recall, i think they had added one regular toilet, presumably for old ladies who had trouble with the hole in the floor (or the western tourists…)
lawDJ
The only city I’ve visited in your possible itinerary is Budapest and I have to say I loved it. I would go back there in a heartbeat. It helps that my husband proposed on our trip there, on a very romantic clear night by the Danube. It’s a relaxing, walkable city with beautiful architecture and lots of romance. The baths and spas are also lovely. I can’t say much about the other cities but I would vote for Budapest :) (I would definitely fly there from Istanbul though)!
MM
Capadoccia and Budapest!
AIMS
Budapest is really great!
I also LOVE sleeper trains. It is not at all like amtrak! You have to sacrifice a bit of creature comfort (shared bathrooms, etc.) but it’s a fantastic & unique experience. I would sooooooooo do the train!!!! You only live once — it will be memorable & you will get a truly unique view of the country side you would never see otherwise. Plus there is nothing like sleeping on a train, hearing the wheel chug under you (in a good way!)
Sharon
I was in Budapest 2 years ago and I found it a haunting city. I highly recommend it. Go to the mineral baths; even if you’re not Jewish, go to the synagogue.
Lynnet
My bf and I did two 2.5 day amtrak train rides across the country last year and it was a fun experience. I’m not sure it was a fun experience I want to have again, but I’m glad I did it once. (We couldn’t afford sleeper cars, so we were sleeping in the normal seats, and on the first night of the trip back there were a bunch of really loud college students seated near us) If the sleeper trains in Europe are even nicer, I would definitely recommend doing taking the train. You’ll get to see all of the countryside, which you’d never get to see otherwise.
SJ
Second Cappadocia.
Istanbul is phenomenal, so much to do and see. I’d really recommend taking the ferry over to the Asian side of the city, which feels like a different world. There’s also lots of fantastic food (the New York Times did an article on restaurants there a few years back, and I can vouch for the Kebab place they recommend!).
KZ
I LOVE Turkey! I did a month study abroad program there during college. I agree with NYC that Cappadocia is amazing and you should definitely try to get there. We flew from Istanbul; I don’t remember, but I think internal flights are fairly cheap, and I’m not sure about driving distance.
We were in Istanbul most of the time, but we also spent a couple of days in Cappadocia and along the coast–to Ephesus and Assos and a few other historical sites (Troy, Pergamum, probably something else I’m forgetting). If you end up going to Ephesus, we stayed in Selcuk (c with a hook) and spent an afternoon in a little village called Sirince (s with a hook), which is a good stopping point for one reason–fruit wine. They have delicious fruit wine. I got a bottle of pomegranate wine there and have been looking for some ever since (no such luck). Anyway, the point is the coast is nice if you can find the time. If you want something a little closer to Istanbul, we took a day trip to a nice beach on the Black Sea, but if you want historical sites + beaches, go to the Mediterranean coast.
As for Sofia, I have never been, but one of my friends on our trip went up for a weekend to visit a friend and really did not like it–said it was fairly depressing. Don’t know anything about Bucharest, but I think I’ve heard nice things about Budapest.
Chicago K
All pomegranate wine of a specific brand? I pick it up quite regularly at a local eastern euro grocery store.
anon
cappadocia for sure, and then my experience with the other three cities is as follows: budapest > sofia > bucharest. you WILL have an amazing time in budapest.
G
Cappadocia! Although you might want to check some travel sites (Lonely Planet’s Thorn Tree, wikitravel) to make sure it’s feasible and advisable to drive- think about the cost of renting car, possibility of getting really lost, crime, damaging the vehicle, etc.
Istanbul is one of my favorite cities in the world, the kind where you don’t have to do touristy stuff to have a great experience. The bazaar is awesome- you’ll want to buy everything in it. Then grab some tea from one of the little shops, sit and people-watch. Check out the spice market, watch people fish off the bridges, take the public ferry to the other side of the Bosphorus. If you’re into old churches and mosaics, the St. Savior in Chora Church is amazing.
As for the other cities, I have only been to Bucharest, and it’s not worth seeing. At all. If I had to pick one, I’d choose Budapest, which I’ve heard is really nice. My Turkey trip was part of a massive two-week blitz- Serbia, Romania, Turkey, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland- so it is possible to see a lot if you stay focused. I would also really recommend Turkish Airlines- they weren’t very expensive, and the service was excellent. Conversely, stay the hell away from TAROM, the Romanian airline. They were several hours late taking off. Then they left my luggage sitting on the tarmac in Bucharest for four days- they didn’t know where it was, didn’t care, and probably never would have found it had I not completely flipped out on them.
Eleanor
That’s so exciting that you’re going! Istanbul is wonderful, as everyone else has said, but Ephesus was my favorite. I love ruins, and you can walk right in among them. There wasn’t a whole lot in Ephesus besides that, though, so if you’re not into ruins it might not be the best place.
Istanbul and Cappadocia are just as wonderful as everyone else has said, and you should definitely stay in one of the cave rooms in Cappadocia. I did this with a few friends, and even though we were taking the trip on a budget we found some that were affordable. We also took overnight buses all over Turkey to save money on transportation and hotel rooms (no need to pay for a place to sleep if you’re on a bus all night). This was tiring, but the buses are a good option some of the time.
I always thought Trabzon, on the Black Sea, sounded cool, but I’ve never been there and it’s kind of far off the tourist beaten path of western Turkey, so it’s probably more difficult to access. It would probably depend how much time you want to devote and how comfortable you are visiting less-traditional places.
I also went to Sofia, which was full of big, blocky, Soviet-looking architecture, and it seemed like people didn’t smile too often. It didn’t actually make me feel depressed, but I can definitely see how the friend of a commenter above would describe it as depressing. I liked walking around it, but it kind of felt like I imagine walking around any Eastern European city might feel. It wasn’t like Istanbul, where there are interesting things around every corner, and you could spend days just wandering around. In short, Sofia was fun, but I would probably recommend Budapest instead – I’ve never been to Budapest but everything I’ve heard about it sounds amazing.
Have a great time on your vacation!
KZ
i mentioned the Black Sea for beaches, but it occurs to me that if you’re going in November, it will probably be too cold–you’d have to go to the more southern mediterranean beaches (like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96l%C3%BCdeniz )
anon
I also heartily reccommend cappadocia. I was there last october, it was amazing. We had 10 days in Turkey, and spent 5 days in Istanbul and 5 days in cappadocia. I loved Istanbul, but was totally and completely blown away by cappadocia. What an amazing, special place.
Stay in one of the fancy cave hotels. They are not really that expensive and are quite an experience. We stayed at the lovely Serinn House in Goereme, and I think it was less than $200 a night. The hot air ballon ride is pricey, but really worth it.
We also hired a guide to take us hiking through the rose valley for the afternoon, which I would also highly recommend if you are not super outdoorsy.
Finally, if you only have 10-12 days, I’d really encourage you just to concentrate on Turkey. There is more than enough to see, and I think you’ll feel really pressured if you try to through in another european city.
My advice:
3-4 days in Istanbul; fly to cappadocia
3-4 days in cappadocia; drive along the coast to Ephesus or other towns in that area
1-2 days along the coast
Fly back to Istanbul. Also consider throwing in a side trip to the ruins of Troy, about 2-3 hours outside of Istanbul.
missing traveling
just commenting to say I am super jealous! I haven’t even bothered to renew my passport as we are too broke for int’l travels right now. I hope you have a wonderful time!
HotInTheCity
What would you wear to a small dinner at a judge’s house? Maybe 5 people plus dates/spouses.
Cat
A little more context would be helpful — is it the judge you are clerking for? Do you know what type of dinner (barbecue?)
if barbecue, I would wear whatever is most flattering on your body of: capri pants or bermuda shorts and a body-skimming top (e.g., tunic or untucked, sleeves rolled loosely oxford), a cotton or tailored, dark wash denim skirt with a nice quality tee, or a conservative sundress.
if indoors, I’d probably end up in a wrap dress. It manages to blend in with both more- and less- casual looks.
HotInTheCity
I don’t have many details yet, but I’m going to the outlets tomorrow so I thought I’d look for something. It is the judge for whom I’m interning. It’s a going away dinner for her outgoing clerk and me and a welcoming dinner for her incoming clerk. Should be casual but my judge is, well, traditional when it comes to dress.
AIMS
I would wear a simple dress. You can’t go wrong with something like that in my mind.
Not nec. this but something along these lines should be fine (and I would stash some different accessories in my bag so that you can dress it up or down as needed.)
http://www.jcrew.com/AST/Browse/WomenBrowse/Women_Feature_Assortment/catalogjcrewcomexclusives/dresses/PRDOVR~21847/99101909712/ENE~1+2+3+22+4294967294+20~~~20+17+4294967101~15~~~~~~~/21847.jsp
Another thought is to ask the outgoing clerk what she’s planning to wear. You won’t go too wrong if you’re both dressed similarly!
Cat
good pick, AIMS — that type of dress was exactly what I had in mind by “conservative sundress.” And very dress up/downable.
AIMS
@Cat — I am actually really tempted to order this dress now! trying not to shop but it does seem soooooo versatile.
naijamodel
A dress. I have like 3 sheath dresses in black, cream, and brown. A dress, low heeled pumps and simple jewelry. Something I don’t feel “constrained” in, but I would be myself and look pretty :)
HotInTheCity
Ooh, a sheath dress sounds good. Not too casual but not too formal. Thanks!
Shayna
Definitely — always better to be overdressed than underdressed. Would steer clear of shorts — the most casual would be ankle length pants (if that’s a flattering look on you)
lawDJ
It might depend on the judge. Mine is so informal that shorts and a t-shirt were expected, however, if you’re not sure or want to err on the formal side I’d go with a little black dress in a non-shiny fabric that didn’t reveal too much (possibly with sleeves) and a statement necklace with some color plus sub-3″ heel (possibly peep toes). I’d wear flats if you have any inkling that you’re going to be getting a tour of the “grounds.”
Hazel
I would like advice about how to network when you don’t have a job and are looking for one. Especially with alumni. Networking is indeed like pulling teeth for me and am not very comfortable with it.
I am totally guilty of not networking with alumni like someone mentioned yesterday.
HotInTheCity
Do you live in a city that has a large alumni network? If so, join a general organization that is very active as there will likely be a lot of alumni in that organization. IWIRC is awesome in my city.
Is there an actual alumni organization for your city? Even my tiny undergrad university sponsors events in my city (granted, it’s for requesting donations, but it’s a way to meet alums.)
Eponine
I posted on this on yesterday’s thread and my advice would be the same for you – so instead of reposting here I’ll be a pain and suggest you do a find for my name on that thread and read my comments there :).
Shayna
Most almuni groups have a group on LinkedIn – I suggest you join the applicable ones (by year, major, etc.) and see if there’s anyone you want to connect up with – start with an e-mail, follow up with an offer of coffee one night after work or in the morning… Good luck!
G
Also, beware that some schools have different association groups with different demographics. In the city I lived in right after college, the alum group had an official-but-not-promoted subgroup full of younger members. I always wondered why the youngest people I met at advertised events were 25 years my senior. I finally did some research, and discovered my conservative private college refused to promote events that involved drinking, even though they were still official alumni events. This policy caused a de facto age split, where the younger members only attended the happy hour events. Having access to both groups was critical to my networking success, so it’s important to seek out a broad cross-section of alums if the official group appears very narrow.
MM
It’s too hot to wear bra + cami + shirt in this heat! Anyone have those “cami bras” — with the built in modesty panel in the bra so you can wear just that with your v-neck shirt? Everything I’ve been able to find online is lacy, which I think is inappropriate for the office.
lawDJ
I’m looking for this as well. I have not found any non-lacy ones, and yet they must be out there. Perhaps an etsy alchemy request would be in order?
Cat
Fairly basic colors, but here is one from Gap: http://www.gap.com/browse/product.do?searchCID=25781&vid=1&pid=620399
Or are you looking for a cami with built-in cups as opposed to just the extra fabric w/ band? I don’t know where to find any of those, but would be curious to try one if anyone has suggestions…
MelD
I’ve tried the built-in cups before from NY&Co and I’ve also seen them at Kohl’s in the juniors department. I don’t like them at all because the cups get lumpy after you wash them and then you can’t wear them anymore. They were sewn in so you couldn’t take them out to wash separately by hand.
MM- you may be best off with a cami-style sports bra with the thin straps. I think Target sells them in many colors and they’ll provide you with more coverage than the built-in-cami tops. The only underwire bras I’ve seen all have the lace.
MM
To clarify — I’m not talking about a cami with a built-in bra (those do not provide enough coverage or support for me personally — but a bra with an extra piece of fabric like a “built in cami”.
Here’s the idea: http://tinyurl.com/3xakphh
LawDJ: I actually did post an Alchemy request earlier today! No bites yet — we’ll see how it goes.
lawDJ
MM: you might want to post something similar to what’s sold at this site: thewinkee.com but to your measurements. I bet they could make it for under $17 in a variety of colors/fabrics. I would do velcro for attachments, and that way you can put it on any bra you like! If this works out, do post about it because I would love to get it done :)
lawDJ-here
MM: you might want to post something similar to what’s sold at this site: thewinkee.com but to your measurements. I bet they could make it for under $17 in a variety of colors/fabrics. I would do velcro for attachments, and that way you can put it on any bra you like! If this works out, do post about it because I would love to get it done :)
anon
[This is actually lawDJ but I can’t seem to post under that name right now]
MM: you might want to post something similar to what’s sold at this site: thewinkee.com but to your measurements. I bet they could make it for under $17 in a variety of colors/fabrics. I would do velcro for attachments, and that way you can put it on any bra you like! If this works out, do post about it because I would love to get it done :)
anon
(still lawDJ)
I suppose another alternative would be to just use something like this in a bigger size (for more coverage) and over your own bra, but that might be too much fabric already.
http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=450638&CategoryID=226&LinkType=PDPZ1
Eponine
How about this:
http://youlookfab.com/2009/06/04/second-base-the-cami-that-keeps-you-cool/
Not exactly what you were looking for but I think it’d have the same effect.
Eponine
Or something like this: http://www.amazon.com/Get-Organized-CAMISOLE-BLACK-SMALL/dp/B002JW4IOG
Anon
I have literally 10 from target in both black and white. Best ones I’ve owned by far (and I’ve tried VS, BR, ON and others). I think they are Merona.
RR
I was in a Gap outlet store on Monday, and they had them in every color under the rainbow. Seriously, like 12+ colors. I hate shelf bras in camis, so I was frustrated looking for some in the store WITHOUT the bra! None of them had lace.
Shayna
Agree — Not sure who actually buys those since I can’t imagine how small your bust would have to be to be adequately supported by an extra piece of cotton and an elastic strip!
I found some with cup bras (and sized by cup size!) in Macy’s lingerie department
kjf
I buy them all the time. I wear a size C cup but I would definitely be on the smaller size of a C. I like them because I don’t have to wear a bra and they do seem to support me well enough. Obviously, I always wear something over them, but I guess I like the idea of not having 2 pairs of straps. If I have to slip off my jacket for something (like at the salon) I don’t feel tacky. Frequently, I will leave the cami on and just pull on a pair of yoga pants when I get home to fix dinner and exercise. I probably own 10 of these from multiple places. But, Gap has recently changed their description because the online one referenced above used to not be identified as having a built in bra.
Shayna
I’m jealous — I love the idea, but they just leave me waaay too saggy/jiggly (I’m a C, but perhaps a less firm C?)
MelD
I have a D cup (small band size) and have no support issues with the shelf bra tank tops. The main problem is the dreaded uniboob, so I just wear them around the house or more athletic activities like yoga.
TK1
I saw a commerical the other night for an attachable cami panel, its just the front top section of a cami that attaches to any bra. I haven’t tried them, so no recommendation, but I thought they looked interesting for those who dislike wearing camis all the time.
K
I just don’t wear shirts that require a cami in the summer, too hot.
lawDJ
I thought she was looking for one of those panels you add to your own bra, like this one but without the lace:
http://www.camisecret.com/Default.asp?bhcp=1
If so, I think I just found some non-lace ones:
http://www.thewinkee.com/
lawDJ
[My comment doesn’t seem to be getting through (I don’t even see it in moderation), so if this posts multiple times I apologize!]
I thought MM was looking for one of those panels you add to your own bra, like this one but without the lace: http://www.camisecret.com/
If so, I think I just found some non-lace ones: http://www.thewinkee.com/index.html
Engraved Gifts
Amazing post…
Thank you for the post..
kjf
Really?!? Glad we could help.
JessC
Troll much?
ACE
First Trial Help Please
I am starting my first jury trial Monday. Any advice would be appreciated.
TIA
AIMS
If you have a legal bookstore near, there’s Nutshell Series book called something like “My First Trial: Where to Sit, When to Stand.”
ACE
Thanks, I have that book and have gone through it but was just wondering about the experiences you ladies have had in general.
AnneCatherine
Will you be solo, first chair, second chair?
ACE
My first, first chair. I’ve only sat second chair once before.
hmm
*ONLY “yes” or “no” (or other close-ended) questions on cross! Don’t let opposing counsel’s witness “get away” from you.
*Don’t say “OK” or start every question with “and….”
*If motions in limine have been filed and granted, you still have to approach the bench or attempt to enter the evidence at trial to preserve the issue for appeal.
*You might want a small cheat sheet of the rules of evidence/questions necessary to lay a foundation, especially for expert witnesses.
*if you have to cross examine someone who’s position is well-respected or appears sympathetic (child, doctor, cop, fireman), approach it carefully! Even if you want the jury to hear that the witness is totally incompetent/dishonest/etc, a hostile interrogation sometimes makes you look worse than them, no matter how bad their testimony.
Ms B
Make sure to have your files and folders organized and get rid of any torn-up redwelds that you have been using. Jurors notice when your files are messy and draw conclusions that your mind is messy as well. (My MIL has been on six juries and always notices this).
Bring extra pens or pencils, post-its, tabs, folders and legal pads. I always put an extra pair of hose, scotch tape, a stapler, and some clear nail polish in the lit bag as well to deal with wardrobe issues. You also may want to bring your own glass for water — nothing tacky or flashy, just plain acrylic/plastic. Avoid bringing anything with your firm name or any brand names on it — you never can tell what will irritate a juror.
Be sure to mark exhibit designations on a post-it on your copy of all exhibits so that you know which is which. Keep a list of all exhibits (or have a law clerk do it for you) so that you are organized on that front. I put together a chart in advance with columns for exhibit number/letter, description, number of pages, any objections made, and whether the exhibit was admitted into evidence. Also — and I cannot stress this enough — your exhibits should be organized in binders, with enough binders for you, opposing counsel, the witness on the stand, the judge, the judge’s deputy/ECRO/court reporter, and the judge’s law clerk. Tab each exhibit.
Tell your witnesses that even if they are saying something damaging, they need to be honest and CALM. Jurors believe that people who are hostile or stressed are hiding something and that people who are calm and make eye contact have nothing to hide. Also, remind your witnesses to dress appropriately (I once had a witness show up in a jacket and tie but no socks . . . allegedly because I did not tell him to wear socks).
Finally, after you pick your jury, lean over to the other side and ask them if they want to settle. Somehow, looking at the actual jury sometimes convinces the other side to buckle.
Good luck!!
AnneCatherine
From someone else who has also only second-chaired, and only been to a few (but one *was* seven weeks . . . . ), these thoughts/pieces of advice, ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous:
Though each trial has its own personality, if you’ve been to more than one trial, remember that you DO know what to do because the process is the same for the most part.
Be friendly, but not obsequious, to the courtroom staff. Probably a given, sorry, but a little politeness with them goes a long way.
The jury notices EVERYTHING you do, say, eat, drink, and wear, whether you are “on” or “off.” For the length of the trial, you are the star (or one of the stars) of the show and their eyes are on you at all times.
Speaking of eating; try to resist skipping lunch or eating out of a vending machine so you can squeeze in some prep during lunch. Whatever your natural weight/health tendency is–whether it is to lose muscle mass/get run down/get too thin for your liking/gain stress weight–will be exacerbated by days/weeks of sketchy meals at odd times with exercise being left (understandably) as an afterthought. Try to take care of yourself.
That said, if your houskeeping/plant-watering/exercise class attending falls by the wayside for the length of the trial, it just does. Your job is to get through the trial, and life will be there on the other side of it.
Make sure your assistant/receptionist/voicemail has clear instructions (or, in the case of voicemail, is programmed) to state that you are in trial, a message can be left, but may not be returned for ___ days (2 days longer than you expect trial to last). On the same note, use Outlook’s or your email’s out of office assistant to set up an automatic out of office message that you are in trial with “limited to no access” to email; otherwise, clients who email may think you will respond the same day, which often will not be possible.
Call in favors, whether asking for extensions of time from opposing counsel in other cases (they will understand), or asking your mom to stop by to feed your dogs.
Know what you are wearing every Sunday for the whole week and/or each day for the next day. Don’t leave it for morning. Bring spare pantyhose, and clear nail polish for runs.
Bring the book of jury instructions; judges often ask for the book (as opposed to a download or your draft). And it will make you feel more secure for the charge conference.
As soon as you have a jury, call or email back to the office, and have someone run each juror’s name through Facebook, check for blogs or twitter accounts, etc. One could be tweeting about your trial, it’s happened! Or, you could find out useful information about a juror from his or her blog.
Good luck! Remember how many people at your firm are thinking “I wish that was me!!” Have fun.
ceb
Pack some crackers with peanut butter and a few carrot sticks. This gives you the energy to keep on going in the afternoon, but you don’t have to actually have to go to lunch. You get to use your lunch hour for trial prep/strategy, and you don’t suffer the post-lunch sluggishness that opposing counsel will feel.
Shayna
Bring some almonds (non-salted) as well — I love those for a quick lift
JessC
For each and every witness have a checklist of what you need out of that witness. Not necessaryily a question-by-question list, more like the big points/issues you need from the witness. If you really feel like you’ll be nervous, then a question-by-question list is probably ok but be prepared to deviate from it if necessary.
Also, remember in law school when they taught you at the end of an examination to ask for “a moment to confer with co-counsel”? Do it. You don’t necessarily have to ask for it out-loud, just look over your shoulder to co-counsel for a nod that you got everything. If your second-chair notices that you forgot something, then ask for a moment.
Pre-mark all of your exhibits if possible. It’ll make entering them flow just that little bit more smoothly. And the judge’s clerk won’t hate you.
If there are motions or caselaw (or other printed materials you will be using during arguments) bring enough copies for everybody (even if they should’ve already gotten them).
As for clothes (because this is corporette, afterall): professional, non-flashing, and comfortable. Heels that you feel comfortable walking around in and standing in for a long time. You may want to avoid the big statement pieces. You don’t necessarily need to stick with the plain black skirt suit, and white button-front look – but this isn’t the time to experiment with new colors. Stick with what makes you feel confident.
Finally, deep breathes! If you know your case inside and out, that’s the absolute best asset you can have going into trial.
M
About drinking water in front of the jury: I was told once, I think by an old Trial Ad professor, never to drink water in front of the jury because they may not have water, may be thirsty, and will grow to resent you for it. I always figured juries would rather not have me coughing or wheezing around them from dehydration.
My insanely formal grandmother just sent me an email after the Kagan hearings. She said that she was so glad that Kagan poured her bottled water into a glass before drinking it. Now, I drink most things out of bottles/cans, but apparently people of older generations (or at least my grandmother) think this is of just horribly poor form. So, in case one of them is on your jury, only drink out of a glass!
anon
anyone else having trouble posting?
anon
of course that post gets through …. I think the system doesn’t like my regular username!
Gimpy
Does anyone have any thoughts on the way a cast might affect interviews, etc.? I’m starting law school at Fancy Pants U in the fall, and my orthopedic surgeon has just informed me that somewhere down the line, I’m going to need surgery in the next few years that would put me in a non-walking cast for a minimum of three months. My immediate thought is to get it done during next summer, so I can recuperate at home (different city than law school), but I’ll (hopefully!) have OCI at the end of next summer, and I’m worried that stressing about skirt vs. pants, pearls vs. drop necklace, tote vs. purse would be somewhat useless if I roll up to each interview on one of those scooter things or on crutches. Does anyone have any experience or advice with this?
Ex-3L Sarah
Why not get one at the beginning of next semester or over Christmas break? Law school is pretty sedentary, so you probably won’t be walking around a whole lot. And unless you’re one of those people that worries about what they wear to class, you don’t have to worry about skirts v. pants, accessories, etc.
Eponine
I’d get it done after first-semester finals of 2L year and recuperate at home during winter break and then during the first couple months of the new semester. You shouldn’t be too busy or looking for a job at that time, so it’d be a good time.
Cat
Agree with the timing. I think Jan/Feb 2L felt “busy” to me because that’s comment-writing season if you’re on a journal, but I think having a cast might have helped force me to just sit down and knock the thing out :)
Gimpy
Thanks, I never thought about doing it at school!
rising 3L
OCI isn’t going the way it used to anymore so you very well may be looking for a job in January of 2L. Unless you’re top 10 at Fancy Pants (and even a few in the top 10 at my fancy pants were looking for jobs in January). Just thought you should consider that. Theres no guarantee that you’ll be set by Jan.
Lynnet
My school has Moot Court early in the second semester of 2L year, so that might be something to check out before making a decision.
RKS
First question — how handicapped-accessible is FancyPants U? You might want to start first, see how the building is laid out and where your classes are located, before determining timing. My law school would have been a total PITA — parking far away, crowded elevators, etc. Also, will you have friends/family around to help?
If you want to recover at home, doing the surgery in May right after exams should have you free and clear by August. Only problem is, do you plan on working 1L summer?
On another note — I was in a variety of casts for 3+ months this spring after breaking my ankle. Really, other than the hassle of getting around, I would not have thought twice about interviewing. I actually should have been the interviewer for several OCI events, but bailed due to handicapped accessibility concerns (combined with DC’s snow). As an interviewer, I really would not have batted an eye at your cast. Lots of people get injured or have surgery, life goes on. Heck, for all you know, your interviewers may bond with you on it if they’ve had similar problems in the past.
D
Will you still be able to drive? If so, there may be handicapped spots close to the school where you could park. But I would not be concerned about interviewing with a cast. My husband recently broke his foot on vacation, it made him memorable to everyone.
RKS
On the driving note, another Q. Have you ever been in a cast and crutches before? I.e., do you have a sense of what you’ll be in for? The handicapped parking permit was a lifesaver for me, but I still found it really, really difficult to drive/get around. My left ankle was broken, so I was physically able to drive. But then I got to my destination and had to unload — getting myself + briefcase + whatever else out was a hassle. Big backpack full of books would be even harder, IMO.
Anonymous
I’m with MM – it’s too hot to wear lots of my usual work clothes! All you hot-weather girls with tips for dressing in the heat, please share!
I’m actually having more trouble on casual days – my office is all suits during the week but on Fridays and certain quiet weeks we’re completely jeans-casual, in some cases even sneakers. The problem is that it’s too hot to wear jeans, so I’ve been wearing floaty skirts and sundresses with cardigans, but then I get “why are you so dressed up on a Friday?” Gah.
Shayna
What about thinner fabrics for pants? I’m not a big fan of linen due to wrinkles I but I know many people who like it for that, also thinner khaki pants are a nice jeans alternative.
Ru
I deal with this “dressed up on Friday thing”, too – besides the fact that it’s too hot for jeans, I just don’t prefer them. Maybe a denim skirt would work foryou?
Res Ipsa
Khakis? Nice linen pants? Tailored capris?
Shayna
Anyone see this Newsweek post: http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/jobbed/2010/07/09/even-female-law-partners-suffer-wage-disparities.html
Basically, women law partners make $66K less than male partners due to “stereotyping, gender bias, and even bullying and intimidation” — Thoughts?
hmm
In most firms, partners earn a percentage of profits based upon the amount of $ that they bring to the firm. If you bag a few big corporate clients, you’re entitled to a bigger cut of the pie.
Men are generally better at networking and can lean back on the boys’ network, and the fact that their kindergarten buddies/family friends/colleagues from earlier in their career are far more likely to now be the ones making the decisions regarding legal services. That’s just demographics. All of the partners, women included, do have to ASK for the $$ at the annual budgeting meetings, which they may be more reticent to do. I’m not ready to say that, as a matter of course, women ask for less because they’re “bullied.” I suspect that it might deal more with having a smaller book of business.
I think that things will change as we get more women entrepreneurs and “career women” who network like hell, provide amazing service to clients, support other woment, and refuse to be “mommy tracked.”
anon for this one
“Men are generally better at networking . . . ” Are they, though? Or are their just more opportunities for them to do so? In my firm, at least, the male associates are involved in golf tournaments, for instance, that women are never asked to be involved in. Or, I’ll find out, just by chance, that one associate actually plays golf, touch football, and softball with a partner. Would a 50-year-old partner even want to play golf or touch football (!) with me (30’s, woman)? Would his wife want him to? No. So the invitation would never be extended by him, or accepted by him if extended by me.
I have been clipped out of client dinners—for clients I do work for—and male associates who don’t do work for the client asked along to fill the table, and I’ve been told after the fact (by male associates/friends, not by the partner) that “Well, Client wouldn’t feel comfortable talking about the things he likes to talk about with a woman there,” or “Well, Partner didn’t think he should expose you to the bad language and crassness that goes on. Client always talks about strippers.”
My brother (a partner in Big Law) told me he had always just assumed women “don’t want to be partner.” I think that may be the thinking in some folks’ head, when often what is really happening is women get tired of being left out, ignored, routinely “protected” from clients, etc., and decide to switch jobs, fields, careers, lifestyles, rather than fight a losing battle. Luckily, there are some women-friendly firms. And it’s not even like the one I’m at is woman-unfriendly (it’s not) or anti-woman (it’s not).
Elle Woods
An equity partner at my firm recently commented that (aside from career gaps to have babies etc and other priority decisions) he felt that one of the reasons there are less female partners is that women don’t push themselves forward enough and aggressively demonstrate that they want to be partners. This isn’t the first senior (male) partner I have heard mention this.
Whether or not this is true is neither here nor there, but it does make one think that in many firms men still make the rules and consider that because they are aggressive, women should be too and just because a woman isn’t, she isn’t worth her salt as a partner or isn’t just as effective at getting what she wants.
Thoughts?
Shayna
The kicker is that – and the article notes this – that when women do push forward with the same level of aggression as their male counterparts they are disliked — and unfortunately to a certain extent, it is important to be liked to have the professional relationships necessary to move upwards
hmm
I read the book “The Male Factor,” and found it to be a little bit disturbing, but very enlightening about the way men think about women in the workplace.
There is a fine line between being aggressive and being pushy for both men and women–unless the pushy person has money, power, or is very bright, they’re not very well-tolerated. I think women are afraid to be “aggressive” because we don’t want to cross into “pushy” territory, and there aren’t a lot of models for assertive women in the workplace–I know that my firm has “very sumbissive” and “very pushy” women, but no one that I see as a career role model.
remi
I posted this exact question before–you phrased it better than me. I also agree that there is a big tension adding a “girl” to the mix of events that men typically use to network amongst other men, especially a young single girl to a group of married men. For example, almost everyone who does things at my firm is VERY into golf. They talk about golf constantly and take our clients golfing probably monthly if not more often–when we see the clients at lunch or meetings, their conversations always start with golf/country club connections/etc. I’m not invited to these things, (and, honestly, it would be probably worse if I went–I’m taking lessons, but am a really terrible golfer! I figure that the “old boys” probably already figure that I”m incompetent, so ‘sealing the deal’ with my admittedly terrible golf game would not help matters!) and I ‘m flummoxed by how I will make a similar connection to the client as male Jr. Associate X who golfs with mentoring partner’s client and that Client’s COO/HR head and underlings. I get especially aggravated to think that the client will be more likely to call on Jr. Associate X when he has a legal issue in the future because of the early social connection when I literally spent 20% of my time correcting Associate X ‘s mistakes (co-counsel)….sometimes when he’s on one of the very “boys trips” we speak of. (This is the first time I have ever complained about it “out loud,” FYI–it’s not a situation where I’m a vocal martyr!)
Ideas? My firm tries to do “women’s networking” events, but it’s strangely difficult to think of social activities that form a basis for these events.
on a lighter note….
I always laugh to myself when it seems that the guys are trying to “protect” me from clients or others who may be agressive and/or offensensive” part. If a male partner thinks his clients can be crasser than my insane family, he’s clearly got another thing coming. :)
remi
excuse the typos–netbook typing is proving challenging!
Shayna
I had the same problem when I was in public accounting… my conclusion was that I wasn’t cut out to network and get clients – necessary to move up – so I left for corporate accounting… I love what I do, but honestly, had I realized the basis for why I felt that I was not cut out for networking I would have tried to figure out a way to maneuver around it (despite the fact that my firm and clients LOVED golf similarly and even with private lessons I remain abysmal)…
anon for this one
Yeah, I agree, it’s not that I need protecting. But, at least in the case of the partner at my firm, at least half of it is that he, partner, doesn’t want to be embarassed later in front of me because I am given to understand he joins in the “salty talk” for the sake of appeasing the client, and while he is okay with doing that in front of the guys in a “we’re all guys in it together” way, he would be embarrassed to do so in front of me (he’s a couple of decades older, I’m more like his daughter’s age, and he is somewhat old-fashioned). So, while couched in lame terms like “not exposing you to that type of thing,” it’s in a way more insidious–not exposing him to embarassment. Though, the thing is, I understand that the customer/client is king, so, if Client wants a boozy boys’ night out, that’s what he’s going to get, and, when they are away from their wives, that seems to be what some clients want. It’s a conundrum.
I agree that the womens’ networking thing degenerate into stuff like “let’s all go get pedicures together!” (and hey, I love pedicures) and then, no one responds, because half the women are home with kids/grandkids/dogs/husbands in their rare free time (and I don’t blame them!) and not looking to escape the domesticity. Sigh.
Ms B
I am a big supporter of putting together your own “old girls club”, but I actually have had a good deal of success at non-“woman’s” networking. I think that a lot of men want (or are required by corporate policy) to work with diverse professionals. In fact, the younger generation (40 and under) expects it. Moreover, I have had a number of male prospects and clients come out and say that they prefer working with women attorneys because they believe that they work harder, are more loyal, and are more responsive. However, a lot of potential male clients and referral sources do not know how to “move the ball forward” in terms of developing an attorney-client or referral relationship with a woman or they are concerned that they will be perceived as “coming on” to the woman when they only are looking for a professional relationship.
That puts the onus on you to make the potential client or referral source comfortable and to make the first overtures. I feel fortunate that I love college basketball; I can carry on a conversation with pretty much any guy about the game generally, whether the NCAA tournament should be expanded, etc. As a result, I take male clients to lunch during the NCAA tournament to watch the games. I also have made an effort to learn about beer (in addition to the interest that I already have in wine) and meet current or potential clients or referral sources for drinks at a beer and wine bar that a friend owns. I have found that a lot of men are more comfortable meeting alone with a woman if you make it clear that the time is just an hour for drinks before you meet your friends/BF/DH (and I feel comfortable knowing that all the staff at the wine bar knows me and will look out for me). I also have two or three favorite restaurants where the staff know me and where I can feel comfortable doing business entertaining.
An option that I would use if my firm made it available would be to take a client (male or female) to the firm box at a musical or sporting event where the client’s children would have a good time, e.g. American Idol or one of the former contestants, High School Musical, baseball etc. The children can watch the concert or game in a protected area and the two to three hours in a small box with delivered food provides an excellent opportunity to have discussions with the client.
I also have taken it a step further and invited my male and female partners to lunch to discuss how they have gotten where they are. At the end of lunch, I ask directly if they have even one client where they think that I could help enhance the client’s relationship with the firm, e.g. by meeting with the client about the services my department provides, by improving the relationship with a new manager, by filling out a golf foursome, etc. Some partners have declined (I suspect they are concerned I will try to steal their clients), but at least a few of them have made a concerted effort to introduce me to clients that they think I will get along with. At that point, it becomes up to me to grow the relationship and I do it, even if the client is outside my practice area. Clients have friends and those friends have friends — and inevitably they all need attorneys.
Finally, at a basic level, as women, we need to turn to our friends and not only ask for their business, but for their friends’, spouses’ and families’ business. Don’t assume someone will think of you — tell people you want the work. I get my nails done and never hesitate to give out my card (with my LinkedIn profile address on it) to the (mostly) women I meet there.
Keep in mind that this is not easy. I think of it kind of like dating (turns out it was good practice to start asking boys out in high school). You are going to have to take the initiative and do a lot of asking. Expect to hear “no” more than “yes”. Expect to deal with more than a few “frogs” (and some outright jerks) before you find the client that is a “prince” (See? Just like dating.) However, it only takes a handful of good clients to boost you up the firm ladder.
And trust me, it works. If you have the business and make your numbers known to the people who determine compensation at your firm, your firm will pay you what you are worth. And if not, you will have no problem going somewhere where you are appreciated.
sk
Ms B__
That is all excellent advice! I will be starting my career in public accounting this fall. While I am not sure if I want to be partner one day, I certainly have not ruled it out. All this advice is just as valuable in accounting, and I’m glad I know it now so that I can be ahead of the game. You certainly seem to present yourself as ambitious without being pushy. Kudos to you.
Ariella
I have a friend moving back to my state after practicing in another state for five years. He’s never practiced here, whereas I’ve been here for five years and have personal connections. He needs a job. Is it appropriate for me to send out an email to my in-state attorney friends and ask them if they have any leads for his practice area? I would like to help him as much as possible (he introduced me to my husband and was one of my better friends in law school), and this is really the only thing I can think of.
MM
Entirely appropriate. I recently did this for a friend, and I don’t even work in my home state — just leveraging the few contacts I had. I did in a very casual, open way: personal email to each person, mentioning that I had a fantastically talented friend in the market for a job and wanted to help point her to any good opportunities. Did they have any leads? Got a response from everyone on the list — even those with no ideas — and a few helpful tips for her.
AIMS
I think yes, and I would never think amiss of receiving such an e-mail. Maybe others feel differently, but I would be surprised.
I think the key is just how you phrase it (i.e., do you have any leads or advice for this person vs. can you offer my friend a job).
E
I guess the only caveat I would add would be to seriously consider how great you think this person really is, and frame your email/contact accordingly. I’ve been in the very uncomfortable position of being asked by someone to help with a job search, when in fact I don’t think they are as strong as other candidates. In that situation, you might want to frame a more general request “My good friend X is moving to our state, his practice area is Y and is looking for leads or advice…” It’s honest and helpful and allows him to get his foot in the door, without endorsing him or his skills.
That being said, your friend is probably amazing, and you don’t need to hold back on your praise, but I wouldn’t ever want your reputation to be harmed by over selling someone.
Shayna
Definitely appropriate — just make sure that his work, work ethics are of a level that you are comfortable vouching for – you don’t want your name muddied if this is someone who will do sub-par work.
Bonus: If he gets the position based on your reference, it will strengthen your relationship on a personal level, and cement it on a professional level. You never know when you’ll need an introduction…
Melissa
Definitely fine, as long as you’re comfortable having his name attached to yours in your contacts’ minds. If you have any doubts about his professional abilities/ethics, I’d avoid it; otherwise, go for it.
zee
Ok – please help. I have a beach wedding coming up (October, in Mississippi) that requires a costume change for the reception, which is formal. Plus the rehearsal dinner is pretty casual on a deck by the beach. So I need (1) reh dinner dress (2) wear-to-the-wedding dress, and (3) cocktail dress or formal gown. Am I reading this right? And please, please help. I have dresses that will probably fit (3), but nothing for (1) and (2). And I’m from not-the-South. I have found that some events are more formal in the South, yes? Do I need a black tie gown for (3) or will a cocktail dress be ok?
RKS
No advice … but wow, this bride wasn’t thinking too well, in causing a lot of hassle for her guests. Casual beach ceremony + formal reception? Oof.
MelD
I would not go out of my way to buy clothing for this event. Just wear a cute skirt/top for the rehearsal dinner and a cocktail dress for the ceremony/reception with a change of shoes. There will probably be people at the wedding who won’t have the opportunity/desire to change between events, and I don’t think you should either.
Anon
Wow – I hope the beach the wedding is at isn’t too oily by the time you get down there…
RLG
A wrap dress or separates should be fine for the rehearsal dinner. Is there a significant time gap between the wedding ceremony and the reception? If not, I second MelD’s suggestion to simply bring a change of shoes (wedges or flats for the beach ceremony and heels for the reception). Unless the reception begins as late as 7pm, I think you can get away with a fancy cocktail dress (could wear same dress for ceremony and then add embellished shawl/wrap + jewelry for the reception), rather than a full length gown. My May wedding in GA was at 7pm and most women were perfectly appropriate in their cocktail attire (even though men were in black tie).
The best route might be to ask the bride. I think many brides have an idea of what people should wear to wedding events, and would probably be happy to inform those who ask.
Shayna
I had a beach wedding similar to this is Florida last year… not sure if Ft Lauderdale is different from Miss by much, but the bride’s family was several generations of Southern/Floridian, not Northern transplants…. I think you’re fine with a casual skirt and top for the rehearsal dinner — I would try to double the skirt with different tops for the rehearsal and wedding, or wear a sundress to the wedding. Unless they said black tie on the invite, you should be ok w/ cocktail dress and heels. Make sure the beach ceremony dress has flat sandals you can take off on the beach.
fresh jd
I can’t decide if I want these shoes in wine or blue and I have no clue which will fit better into my wardrobe. Oh, decision decisions!
JessC
OMG. Want. Can’t. Resist.
JessC
Ok, I gave in. Got them in the burgundy. Evidently, I have no self-control.
J
Any Philly folks around? I will have 2 free days in Philly and I am a history buff– can anyone tell me what is a “must see?”
thanks!
Shayna
The South Street area of Philadelphia has some great history items – the Liberty Bell (which I believe is free), Betsy Ross museum, Constitutional Center (check out their website to see if they have any special exhibits – I saw the Princess Diana dresses exhibit there last year)
Anon
I live in Philadelphia! I can recommend lots of good restaurants, bars, etc. if you are interested–but it certainly depends on what you like! Shayna definitely covered the basics. The Liberty Bell, Constitution Center, Independence Hall, etc. are all incredible. The Mutter Museum is awesome if you like alternative medicine stuff, and the Art Museum is beautiful and has a wonderful collection of artwork. Let me know if you want more details!
C
Shayna must mean Old City – “South Street” is not exactly a historical experience (unless you count the chewing gum tree?)
Like Anon, I live in Center City and am overflowing with restaurant recommendations if you want. If you want a typically Philly restaurant dinner, get thee to a state liquor store and get that wine in the fridge b/c you’ll be BYOing…
I don’t have a ton to add from a history perspective, although you may want to see Elfreth’s Alley (I believe oldest continuously occupied street in US?) I don’t have the time to google for it now, but there are some more tailored tours (we were looking at these for our MIL, who also enjoys history) — one was of the different murals around the city, one of South Philly (Italian), etc. If you’re already in the Independence Hall area, there will surely be a tour information area in the visitor center / Constitution Center.
Shayna
Yes — sorry (can you tell it was later in the evening??) — And second the Mutter museum — years later my sister and I still crack jokes about the 8 foot colon, but I believe that it may be an appointment only museum? Also, the Art Museum is terrific (but please, do not do the Rocky running-up-the-steps!)
J
Thanks so much guys! please tell me your favorite restaurants– the authentic philly ones (not a chain that happens to be there). And thanks for the BYO tip– that is excellent to know in advance.
I really appreciate your input!
Anon
For BYOs, my favorites are Matyson (37 South 19th) and Lolita (106 South 13th), which is a BYOT-bring your own tequila. You can bring wine and beer, of course, but the restaurant is known for their amazing homemade margarita mixes (blood orange, traditional, watermelon, etc.). Not a great choice if you are headed out alone, though, as the margarita mix comes by the pitcher!
For non-BYOs, my favorites would probably have to be Continental Mid-Town (1801 Chestnut) and Monk’s (264 South 16th). Continental Mid-Town has an interesting menu and decor, as well as a terrific rooftop deck/bar which could be fun to lounge at and enjoy the scenery. Monk’s is a beer drinker’s heaven. The food is Belgian-influenced (think mussels and frites), and you won’t find a better beer selection anywhere else. Period.
I’m not sure where you are staying, but these restaurants are all in Center City and are pretty popular. However, there are tons of restaurants outside of Center City that are delicious, authentic, and lower-key if that is your style (and if you aren’t staying downtown). Hope this helps! If you want to give us your general location, we can probably help narrow down some places in that neighborhood.
Cat
We go to BYOs most often, so here are our favorites:
-Audrey Claire (Mediterranean; 20th and Spruce)
-Melograno (Italian; 20th and Sansom)
-Mercato (Italian; 12th and Spruce. Probably my favorite Italian)
-Garces Trading Co. (11th and Locust. There is a state store within the restaurant where you can buy your wine, then enjoy it with dinner. It’s causing quite the brou ha ha amongst other BYOs without this privilege. Just went there last week and YUM. A little pricier though.)
-Fig (stumbled on it last year – Moroccan – art museum area, address is 2501 Meredith)
Cat
That C above was me — guess I forgot to keep typing the rest of my name earlier :)
Shayna
Love Jones on Chestnut Street (http://www.jones-restaurant.com/) — excellent retro-ish food, very close to the historical sites
Sharon
Two words: Ben Franklin!
You might enjoy seeing Penn’s campus. I love Locust Walk.
Do Elfreth’s Alley as well (oldest occupied street).
You might also want to walk around the Rittenhouse area.
Will you have a car? Do Boathouse Row on the Schuylkill River. That is pronounced Skoo-kul.
Miriam
I’m going to start going to school in the Philly area! I’m so unfamiliar with it and in the midst of trying to find housing in south Jersey, such a pain to do in a month while I live/work in central Jersey, but I can’t wait to get familiar with a new city! Do you know of any good restaurants/bars/event in Philly? I’m so used to going out in NYC; it’s a bit intimidating to learn a new area while everyone else in my class will have already spent 1L there.
Anon
Miriam-
I grew up in Central Jersey and I am very familiar with Philadelphia, so feel free to ask any questions. Getting into Philadelphia from South Jersey is very easy–the PATCO is pretty reliable and makes stops in a lot of centrally located areas, and you can easily transfer to the subway to get to Penn/Drexel/Temple campuses (not sure where you are transferring). Also, we have a good thread going above with restaurant recommendations, check it out! FYI, I’m a lawyer who also went to law school in the city, so feel free to ask any questions about that, too!
Miriam
Thanks! I’m actually going to school right outside of Philly and will hopefully live in Cherry Hill, but I’m assuming most law students will go out in Philly and I can explore the city with my b/f a little. I heard the PATCO runs 24/7 which definitely beats getting stuck in NYC until 5am! I copied most of the above thread into an e-mail for future reference. Thank you so much and I may take you up on the offer and ask a bunch of questions once I get settled in.
ES
I would also suggest exploring the countryside / outer areas if you get a chance. There are some amazing places in the Brandywine Valley. In addition to a ridiculous collection of Wyeth art, there are some fascinating old homes and gardens. The Wharton Esherick House is really cool, and something off the beaten path (http://www.whartonesherickmuseum.org/). There is also the Barnes Foundation, which will be moving to Center City but is currently located in Bala Cynwyd, which is less than 20 minutes from the city and is one of the most incredible collections of impressionist art in the country. I would also suggest a mural tour of the city – it is one of the things that makes Philly so unique.
For my birthday last year, I went to 10 Arts at the Ritz, and it was one of the most delicious meals I’ve ever had. The chef was a runner-up on Top Chef last season (I was awestruck when I met her, but maybe that’s just me).
Moni
This apparently is the weekend for travel questions! I’m heading to Puerto Rico the day after the bar for a week’s vacation. I have a flight, but haven’t booked anything else (partially because I don’t have time to research)! Does anyone have suggestions for areas to stay in/near San Juan, things to do, etc? Since I will have just taken the bar, I’m looking for rest and relaxation (beach and spa?), along with good food and cultural activities. Any suggestions? Thanks!
anon
I went to PR a few years ago. I recommend getting a half-day sightseeing bus tour around San Juan, some even include trips to the Bacardi factory. A walk through Old San Juan is lovely, and the Morro (the sea fort) is really something to behold. You can also take a day trip to El Yunque rainforest. I’ve never seen more good-looking men in one place at one time than in Puerto Rico, and I’ve visited every 6 continents. So, if all else fails, people watching is great fun too.
Have a lovely time! Puerto Rico is an amazing place.
hmm
I stayed at the wyndham/westin resort–probably 20 minute shuttle from the san juan airport, but GORGEOUS. Non all-inclusive, but very restful. multiple trips.
Also, there is a bio-luminescent kayak tour where the water glows in the dark! i think it’s a must!
random other thing: I didn’t realize this, but even though it’s a U.S. territory, you still need your passport. (?) odd, but not something you want to stress about after leaving for the airport on your relaxing vacation!
KZ
you shouldn’t need your passport… I definitely didn’t have mine.
hmm
on the USAir flights, the check in lady emphatically refused to check me in without it, and her supervisor backed her up….I never used it/showed it/had it stamped after that. It was kind of bizarre.
lawDJ
That was totally wrong, you do not need your passport *IF* you’re a US citizen. They might ask if you’re a US citizen though (and if you are, you say yes and they have never actually asked me to produce it).
KZ
i honestly think some people don’t realize PR is a us territory. i called usairways to make sure I was flying out of the domestic terminal. then the person on the phone told me i should go to the international terminal. (it then turned out to actually be in the domestic terminal when i got to the airport)
Louise
Second the advice to bring your passport. You never know when flights will need to be diverted due to hurricanes, storms, engine problems, etc. If you are flying over foreign countries, even if between 2 US cities, bring your passport.
There have definitely been problems with this since the passport laws changed, so I don’t blame the airlines for insisting that you have the documents. Could really save your bacon.
KZ
I do love travel suggestion threads! I don’t have any suggestions for in San Juan, but my 2L year, I went to spring break in Vieques, which I highly, highly recommend (added bonus: it can be super cheap depending on where you stay). It’s an island off the eastern coast. You can either fly from San Juan, or take a taxi from the air port to the ferry in Fajardo and take the ferry over (which is what I did-i think it was $80 for the taxi, which was like a service just from the air port to fajardo.) The drive wasn’t far (an hour, maybe?), and you could conceivably just go spend a night or two on Vieques if you wanted to spend most of your time in San Juan. Most of the island used to be owned by the Navy until very recently (and was used for weapons testing, which was extremely controversial–hence, no more Navy), and as a result, large chunks of the island are completely undeveloped. The beaches are GORGEOUS and basically empty. Also, there’s the Bioluminescent Bay, which is a fairly unique experience (there are very few of them in the world). It helps if you rent a car while you’re there, and if you go, book one early. It’s not necessary, though–we were supposed to have one and couldn’t (apparently you had to be 25… we were 24), so we ended up biking to the beaches in the old navy area. It’s a bit of a bike ride, but worth it.
lawDJ
My big comment is stuck in moderation but I totally second Vieques for a 2-3 day trip. However, lately (just went two months ago) it’s gotten a lot more full than it used to (last time I went was 2007, the Navy started to leave the island in 2003, more or less) and the beaches are almost overcrowded. You don’t need a car b/c a taxi will get you anywhere, but it’ll cost about $15-20 roundtrip from the ferry/airport area. If you go there, stay in Esperanza instead of Isabel II, Esperanza actually has a nightlife (full of American expats actually, mostly from Massachusetts).
If you have less time, Culebra is a great alternative. Slightly shorter ferry or plane ride, amazing beach (though not very private), and really since the beach is pretty much the only big thing to do there, you can see it all in one day. Going for the beach is totally worth it, but after having done it this past weekend via the ferry, I would say spend the money on the flight if you can. The taxi trip to Fajardo (where you take the ferry from) would cost $80 each way anyway so unless you’re in a group where you can split that, the roundtrip flight should be around the same ($80-100) and it’s just so much faster and less hassle (though in a really tiny plane).
KZ
second the suggestion to stay in Esperanza–it’s closer to the best beaches, as well.
I’m sad to hear it’s gotten crowded recently; I was afraid of that when they opened a W hotel there recently. (when i was there march of last year, there were basically like 40 people total, if that, on about a mile and a half of beach–and that was the “popular” beach). But August is part of the off season for the caribbean, so maybe it will be less so now?
lawDJ
Possibly, except Puerto Ricans will be out in full force (as it’s school vacation time :) The W is actually an amazing hotel, but with a ridiculous business plan. Their resort fee is $60/day which is outrageous because even if you get a “cheap” room (right now the cheapest I’ve seen is in the $300/night for Puerto Ricans in a special they were running) you’re paying so much just for the fee! But apparently it’s pretty awesome.
Red Beach (the first one in the old Navy stretch of road) is JAM PACKED every day, but Blue Beach (the next one) is usually not too bad. Those are really the best in my opinion so I’d just pay the extra $3-5 each way to the cabbie and go to Blue Beach.
Oh at Esperanza, eat at Quenepos. Best food in the island for sure, and much better than many places in the “main island” (PR) :)
Anon
hmmm, I seem to be the only one who had not so great experience in Puerto Rico. The food was VERY disappopinting to say the least. Also the people do not speak english or atleast pretend not too.
Maybe we did not do San Juan which might be the interesting part. We also went to El Yunque which was nice, nothing mind blowing. No handsome men around except DH. :P
lawDJ
Where did you spend your time just out of curiosity?
I’m not Puerto Rican but I’ve been living here for almost a year and while there aren’t New York -type variety of cuisines here, the Puerto Rican food tends to be very tasty (though almost never in any way healthy). And yes, many people actually do not speak English, or don’t do so well. It is a US territory, not a state. Their official language is Spanish. They have a Civil Code that was modeled on the Spanish Civil Code. However, unlike any other Spanish-speaking country (and believe you me, Puerto Ricans think of Puerto Rico as a country), there is a lot more English peppered into their Spanish — Spanglish — than you’d find even in Miami.
There are at least two big opposing political factions here, and one of them does not ever want to beomce a state and does not want to be a territory of the United States, so learning English is not high on their priority list (the other is pretty much the opposite, and then there are the people in the middle). That’s not to say that everyone who doesn’t speak English is anti-US or anything like that, I just mean that things are a bit more complicated than just expecting everyone to speak English (I’m referring to the “pretending not to” comment).
cda
Anon, sorry you had such a bad experience! I had the exact opposite experience – as soon as I would start to stutter in my super-basic Spanish, whoever I was talking to would immediately switch to English. I wish I’d gotten to practice my Spanish a bit more, but they at least didn’t make me butcher their language for longer than necessary…
Res Ipsa
We took a week long trip to P.R. last year. Our recommendations: definitely do a ‘booze cruise’–even if you’re not going to drink, the snorkling is great, water is clear and warm, and virtually all of the operators will pick you up at your hotel. We did not rent a car and had initially planned to do Culebra for two days, but ultimately decided that getting there from San Juan/Condado was too much of a PITA and we’d spend too much time in transport.
If you are at all athletic, I would highly recommend Acampa tours; they do a full day rainforest hike/zipline tour that was the highlight of the tour. You don’t go to El Yunque where all the other tourists are; instead, they have an agreement to go to a rainforest on privately owned land where they can control how many people are using it. It was fabulous and included a homemade lunch brought in.
As far as food, we loved Ummo, which is actually an Argentine restaurant with a great sommelier and wonderful service.
Moni
Thanks for your help! We’re definitely looking on staying in Vieques for a few days. I use my passport as my travel ID, so that should be fine.
S
A summer associate at our firm was sent home yesterday for wearing shorts to the office. Maybe I’ll send her corporette to help her out a bit…
Shayna
I’m impressed that your firm did that — I remember having an intern while I was in public accounting (it was my first year working) who wore a spaghetti strapped sundress… and instead of telling her it was inappropriate and/or sending her home, everyone (including senior partners) just made cracks about it… She was obviously wrong to wear it, but to not tell her was cruel (when we heard them – and saw her – another accountant and myself took her aside to mention that something more conservative would be appropriate)
cbackson
I once sent home an intern (well, not exactly “sent”–strongly encouraged and she got the message) who was wearing a low-cut sundress that showed underboob + sideboob. The entire office was basically 1 inch from seeing her nipples. Who DOES that?
JessC
Wait… she was showing UNDERboob… in a sundress? How is that possible? Was she wearing a bikini??
CC
I’m guessing that the arm holes on the dress were cut pretty low and were loose or that the neckline scooped so low that it ended below the girls.
cbackson
The neckline went all the way down TO THE BRA LINE. It *was* basically as if she were wearing a bikini, actually. So that if you faced her from any direction other than straight on, you could see sort of into the cup and under her boob.
She was actually older than me and allegedly had worked in a professional environment, so it was pretty uncomfortable to have to raise this issue with her.
anon
The same leggings + knit miniskirt + ballet flats + bright cotton cardigan outfit was worn by one of our summer associates, AGAIN. Regular Corporettes may recall that she first wore this outfit the first week, and the attorneys and staff were stunned. Even the male attorneys noticed, which is really saying something. Perhaps it was just a naive mistake in the first week. But no, the outfit appeared again in week 7. I’m baffled why she thinks it’s ok to dress like this when she is being employed at a law firm. *Facepalm*
anon
are you keeping track of this on a calendar or something?
Cat
that sounds a little snarky to me. it’s pretty easy to keep track of summers because (a) there aren’t many of them running around, especially those with memorably inappropriate outfits (believe me, leggings girl would be easily spotted) and (b) you often hear the program referred to as the “X-week program,” which this summer I imagine is about 10 at the longest… so pretty easy to judge how long it’s been.
Shayna
I’m consistently amazed by how oblivious people can be … which always makes me worry a bit about whether there are things I’m oblivious to that other people find obvious!
divaliscious11
Did anyone say anything to her? If not, she probably thought it was okay….as no one told her otherwise……
anon
the part that makes me want to cry is the fact that i know some of these people who dress inappropriately are going to get offers this summer, and I didn’t get one last summer and I have the good judgment not to dress like this. the economy depresses me.
meg
I pulled a new associate aside last week and just said point blank “your outfit yesterday wasn’t work appropriate” (short skirt + sleeveless top) – I was prepared for tears, but she was extremely grateful and glad to have someone who told her so she could ask more questions about what she could / could not wear. So if you can, I’d suggest that corporettes who notice these young women making mistakes early on TELL THEM… they don’t seem to learn by observing…
kjf
Headbands – Are they still “in” this summer or am I going to look like Hilary Clinton in her awkward hair days back in the 90’s?
Anon
Personally, I think it depends on the band you choose. I am currently wearing one a thick fabric one, but it’s to hold back my wet hair that I didn’t dry before running out to brunch. That said, I frequently wear really thin black or tortoiseshell bands to the office – both with my hair down and with it back in a low pony. For me, I think it’s flattering and I have always gotten compliments. Not sure whether it’s totally “in” or not though. FWIW, I would not wear a thick fabric or fabric covered band to the office.
Cat
Agree — the thin, J.Crew black/tortoiseshell plastic headbands, or those that are one long, thin strip of ribbon that runs around your head (as opposed to wrapping around and around the headband) are fine. I wear them the same way Anon does.
Thick, velvet-ribbon-wrapped monsters? No no no.
JessC
I’m a fan of the thin ones. Probably wear one at least once a week.
Shayna
I’ve seen some cute ones that have embellished clips (not the right word but I’m blanking) on them for going out, and I’ve seen thin, neutral colored ones (black, tortoiseshell, etc.) for at work… I wish I could wear them without looking like … well, Hilary Clinton! If you can pull it off – and do not do the Alice poof with the front of your hair! – then more power to you :-)
Japan-bound
I’ll be heading for Japan for several days of meetings with my parent company (obviously non-lawyer here), and I’ve been told that the dress code is “business casual”. This was clarified by the department head as “no tie”, but added that he’d be bringing a jacket – though I didn’t have the impression that he’d be wearing it routinely. A bit more background is that I’m in a situation where I’ll be taking a lead on building much closer working relations for my organization with many of the people I’ll be meeting, and this could potentially lead to a more role with additional responsibility. I think it probably goes without saying that I’ll also be one of the few women there.
Though I’ve traveled in Asia before, I haven’t had any experience with business situations. I was considering bringing a black abstract-print sheath dress, a pair of lightweight wool pants, and a pencil skirt to build around, but I really struggling with how much to dress them up or down – I’m leaning towards a couple of more casual non-blazer-type jackets I have rather than cardigans for example, but am a little concerned about the weather as well – I was warned that office temperatures are quite warm. Has anyone had any direct experience with what would be considered appropriate summertime business casual or have other tips?
SF Bay Associate
I’m not an expert on Japan, but have traveled there. Does the office you are going to employ mostly expats, or mostly Japanese? Women in office jobs in Japanese companies/who work with Japanese men dress very conservatively. Always a high neckline, always sleeves (short sleeves if it’s sweltering), and from what I saw, always very conservative colors as well. I would also lean towards the blazers over the cardigans. Maybe it’s a symptom of the gender biases in the work place, but the women dress conservatively and more formally in an effort to be taken seriously. A lot of my perfectly appropriate US biglaw wardrobe would not fly in Japan.
All that said, that’s just from some personal observations; I didn’t work in Japan. Perhaps there are some blogs that can be more helpful.
Japan-bound
It is a mostly Japanese employee base, a large company, and a male-dominated field as well (even in the U.S.). I had guessed myself that more conservative/formal dress for women was probably required to project authority in general in the situation, and had seen many, many women in black jackets/black skirts/white shirts while traveling. But I have never visited Japan during the summer and had understood that there were some different expectations this time of year.
The blog idea is a good one, thanks. I’ll see what I can dig up.
anon
I’ve worked in Japan, and I don’t think they *do* business casual. In the summer men might skip the tie, but they still wear jackets
MelD
My sister wears the typical Ann Taylor/Loft clothing to her business casual office. She’s the only American and I think one of a few women since she does technical work. I worked there for a couple of years in the earlier part of the last decade and typically wore button front shirts with slacks or a skirt. Koizumi started to encourage business casual summers in 2004-2005 so companies could raise thermostats (I think the recommended temp was 28, which is brutal) and save on energy costs.
Japanese are much more conservative about showing cleavage and arms but less conservative about skirt lengths. You want to make sure the necklines are pretty high or that you are wearing a cami and that you have sleeves. I would try to stick to mostly cotton clothes and nothing that requires a cardigan/jacket to cover your arms.
anon23
I was about to say the same. They keep totally covered up top (no shoulders showing ever) but tend to wear much shorter skirts than we do here.
Another Anon
I work for a Japanese company, and the Japanese execs always wear the uniform of a dark suit and tie. For business casual, it’s a grey jacket, no tie.
FWIW I usually wear skirts and blouses. I try and wear designer-but-not-obviously-so accessories (because they’re label-mad and they do notice). Showing off is frowned on, but dressing up hasn’t been a bad idea yet!
HTH. Have fun.
FinanceGal
Concur- I would recommend more skirts than pants, layers, and be conservative with regards to showing upper arm/cleavage. Most of my APAC work experience has been Hong Kong and Taiwan, but I believe Japan is very similar.
If your meetings will mostly be at the senior manager level, go dressy, skip a lot of color, and bring your formal jewelry not costume. A classy designer bag is nice if you have one.
Enjoy the trip! It’ll be a great experience.
AN
Please make sure you take a jacket and atleast 1 proper suit (either skirt/pant suit should be OK). I have never seen any Japanese at meetings in anything but full-on business suits. Never seen any Japanese woman in the companies I met that weren’t office/tea ladies, so cannot help you there. Sheath+blazer should be ok too but I would stay away from the cardis etc.
Aug = HOT in Tokyo (35 degrees C or so). It’s now around 25-30C there.
AN
Agree – Japan does not do business casual. FWIW, I visited when Koizumi was PM!! I don’t know about media/design/IT etc but I refer to MNCs/Japanese companies. Carry a classy bag – great if it’s designer! Pearls seem to be standard issue office jewellery in Japan. Closed toe pumps. I cannot recall if the ladies wore hose or not – despite the heat.
anon23
I would guess no to the hose b/c many Japanese try to look as pale as possible. Hose would (usually) make you look darker. I’m not saying don’t wear hose, I am just saying that if I had to guess, I would say it is not part of their corporate wardrobe. Also, because they seem to be a lot less conservative about showing leg than they are about showing arm.
Salarygirl
Japan-bound : I work in Tokyo at a fairly conservative office. In the summer here, many offices have what is called a “cool biz” policy, which means they allow employees to go without ties, wear short-sleeved business shirts, etc. because they don’t turn the AC all the way up for environmental reasons. I don’t find this impacts women’s dress choices very much, as it is pretty rare to see women go sleeveless in an office environment here. That said, the summer here is disgusting – hot and humid – so I would dress in layers and forgo pantyhose. If you plan to wear a jacket, make sure you can take it off and wear whatever you have on underneath on its own. I don’t know what kind of office you’re visiting, but “salarymen” of all ranks here wear suits everyday, and then lounge casually around the office until a client comes in.
Your wardrobe list above sounds appropriate and I would definitely take jackets to make your outfits more formal/conservative. If you have any female counterparts at the Japan office, check out what they are wearing when you first meet them. There’s a good chance they won’t be dressed very professionally in a suit or jacket, but if you want to show you’re serious, definitely have the option of wearing a jacket. Women here in Tokyo tend to dress up to go to the corner store, so have a little fun with your outfits! In the summer here everyone carries a folding fan and hankerchief to fan and mop their brow so if you sweat, don’t feel self-conscious about dabbing at your face with one!
Tig
I’m still a grotty student, but even in the 28 degree (celsius) heat there seem to be immensely few professionally dressed women in anything but long sleeves.
MJ
I would also stress that you should read about Asian/Japanese business customs regarding entertaining (read: drinking), how to present your business card (two hands) and to discuss where to sit at the meeting with your colleagues in advance. It’s EXTREMELY heirachical (sp?), sorry, it’s late. The meeting will be over before it has begun if you make cultural faux pas.
Check out Conde Nast Traveler for an excellent business etiquette series. http://www.concierge.com
E2
I’m also a non-lawyer working for a Japanese company in NY and have been to visit the head office in Tokyo (maybe we work for the same company!). The women working there were all in nice suits – primarily navy and black.
I was with a reasonably large group visiting at the time including lots of women from London who were dressed wildly inappropriately, but the Japanese workers were gracious and didn’t seem to notice.
Lawgirl
Sale alert: ideeli.com is having big sale on Kay Unger suits. The $500 navy skirt suit with a brown belt that Kat featured a while back is going for $159! For some reason, I didn’t “get the feeling” on the skirt suits, plus my sizes was sold out, but you ladies go get your shop on!
Lawgirl
Link to Kat’s post on the navy Kay Unger suit: https://corporette.com/2010/01/06/suit-of-the-week-41/
Fidalia
I’m in need of some fashion advice-
In August I’ll be attending a three-day QuickBooks training seminar. It’s for novices and professionals alike. I’m a newly minted CPA looking to learn the ins and outs of the software so that I may better advise clients (and impress my boss!). The seminars will be attended by everyone from administrative assistants to CPAs. My question is – what on earth do I wear to this type of thing? I’m only 24, so I don’t want to look too old or dowdy. I also don’t want to look like an intern. Please help!
kjf
I’d go with business casual for this. I’m guessing that most of the people are going to be small business owners and it may not even be on their radar that they should dress up. Maybe some nice pants with a sweater set?
Shayna
Love Quickbooks — great move to learn all about it! Go business casual and comfortable since you’ll be sitting a great deal. Layer for air conditioning and know you’ll see everything – jeans, suits, etc. I would go with black pants/pencil skirt and a nice top. Mostly b/c you never know when a networking opportunity will come up. If someone else from your office is attending you may want to try to ferret out what they’re wearing. When I attended a domestic tax conference last month w/ a colleague we actually talked for a few minutes about what people were likely to wear/what we were planning to wear.
Fidalia
Thanks for the tips!
Anon
Working on the weekend – thoughts on wearing knee-length shorts to the office?
Office is business casual M-Th, jeans on Fridays, and I’d be wearing a collared/other high-necked shirt and either sandals or flats.
I’ve worked a few Saturdays in the past 1.5 years and I’ve yet to see another soul, but I’d like to stay appropriately dressed just in case!
Cat
oh, totally fine. I’ve seen middle aged partners running around in gym shorts. Unless there’s clients there with you, no one will care unless you’re wearing something revealing.
Shayna
When I have to work on the weekend I wear respectable shorts, tank tops, etc… I’ve seen colleagues in running sneakers and sweats, and jeans with holes in the knees… My take is that if I’m going to be in the office on my few days off, then I’m going to wear my comfortable clothes.
Emily
I think Kat posted on what to wear to the office on the weekend – maybe last summer? The first weekend I had to work at my law firm, I played it safe and wore dark jeans, a t-shirt (no AC!) and brought a cardigan. I’ve seen partners come into the office on the weekend straight from the golf course, but it usually seems like an accident. I guess I wouldn’t wear jean shorts, or short-shorts, but I would wear khaki or dark shorts in a bermuda length.
kjf
I worked today and wore capris with a cute flutter sleeve t-shirt and sandals. I didn’t see a single person and I worked almost 8 hours.
A
Sale alert at Banana Republic (in store) — 25% off full priced items and and an extra 25% off sale items. I found a lovely light gray perforated leather bomber jacket marked down to $75 (normally $300) that I snatched up right away, along with a few layering camis/tanks for a whopping $7 each.
Annie
I have been going nuts looking for an oral kiely wheelie bag from a few seasons ago. I have had no luck scouring eBay and Craig’s list, and am completely out of options. I am looking for the crayon crocus small wheelie, which is also known as the multi stem small wheelie. Here’s a picture – http://www.fabsugar.com/Simply-Fab-Orla-Kiely-Crayon-Crocus-Wheelie-1131976
1) Does anyone know any great sources for vintage luggage or vintage handbags?
2) Does anyone happen to have this lying around in the back of their closet and no longer use it? Of course, I will pay fairly for it. (My yahoo email address is notyourkindofgirl)
Ru
Try posting on freecycle.
Netherlands bound
Another travel inquiry. My husband and I are going to Amsterdam in August – we will hang in Amsterdam for a couple of days for museums and stuff, but we want to travel up the north coast and stay in Texel a couple of days and perhaps another couple days near Gouwzee Bay – we will have a car and would like to hike/bike around coast, parks, etc. Any suggestions for B&B’s, locations, restaurants – we are going ‘blind’ with so far just the Lonely Planet….
Thanks in advance!
CatUK
I am happy to give some recommendations for Amsterdam and the surrounding area. It is a fabulous city and there is so much to do.
It will help me to give you some ideas if you could let me know….What do you enjoy doing and what don’t you enjoy? Food wise, do you have any preferences?
Have you booked a hotel in Amsterdam yet or do you know which area you will be staying in?
CatUK
Two/three other cities you could include are Alkmaar:
http://www.vvvalkmaar.nl/content/cityguide.asp?menu=00200000004_000068_000000_000000#
and Volendam and Edam
http://www.vvv-volendam.nl/nl/welcome/
Both are traditionally Dutch and famous for cheese!
Hiking and biking:
The North Sea Trail has a section in the Netherlands:
http://www.northseatrail.org/index.php/en
And the North Sea Cycle route offers a similar route:
http://www.northsea-cycle.com/default.asp?id=2&mnu=2&lang=1
Plus there will be published walks and bike routes available from the VVV (pronounced VayVayVay) which is the Dutch tourist office.
I’ll give you some more info once I know your preferences.
Lucy
Haven’t been to Texel, but Amsterdam is great in August. Long days, not too hot.
I highly recommend The Fair Trade Shop for any chotchkes or souvenirs. It’s on the Leidsoplein (sic?), and has a great mission, great one of kind jewelry & niknaks & is very affordable (and 1/2 of what you pay goes to the people who made what you’re buying).
If you have time, you may enjoy a trip to the Hortis (botanical garden) — its gorgeous & has amazing 400 yr old palm trees.
Food wise, so many good restaurants: Wagamama (near the hard rock cafe, in the little square with giant chess, has phenomenal pan asian type food, very casual ramen bar type setting, but phenomenally good.
Blauw aan de Waal if you are having a special evening — its in an alley near the Red Light District but amazing. Ask your concierge to help with the reservation.
Check out the beaches if you have the time & have a great trip!
Ex-3L Sarah
I’ve only been to Amsterdam for a day, but I second, third, fourth, and fifth Wagamama. :-D
N
I haven’t eaten in the Wagamama in Amsterdam, but I’ve been to the ones in Copenhagen, Newcastle and London, and I can definitely recommend the concept. Yummy food, at decent prices.
Corporette_NL
Hi Netherlands bound. I live in the Netherlands since January and can recommend you the following activities:
While on Texel, rent a tandem bike, it’s super fun and easy to explore the whole island! We stayed in De Koog, which is next to the Ecomare, a seal sanctuary and museum in the National Park. You can find more things to do such as walking in the Wadden Sea on http://www.texel.net.
If you like the beach, the province Zeeland, about 1.5-2hrs drive from Amsterdam, is to be recommended. I personally like Domburg. For B&Bs, check out http://www.bedandbreakfast.nl.
The Hague is certainly worth a visit, you can tour the Binnenhof, the political center of the Netherlands and see the Hall of Knights where the Dutch Queen’s Throne is. There are also great shops in The Hague!
Enjoy your time in the Netherlands
Corporette_NL
Netherlands Bound
Thanks everyone! I wrote earlier but my comment must have gotten lost in moderation. Anyway, in Amsterdam, we are staying at Hotel Brouwer 2 nights on the front end and then Dylan or Hotel L’Europe (?sp) on the last night. Booked a b&b (Isola Bella?) in Texel, so still trying to figure one other destination – Zeeland sounds good, will check it out. Thanks again for such great information!
CTx
I can’t speak to biking along the coast, but I loved the Mike’s Bike Tour I took in and around Amsterdam–I would definitely recommend it!
Chicago K
I might be a bit late to the party to post a question, but all this travel talk has me itching to ask…
Have any of you American gals eloped and married in another country? My fiance and I want to be married abroad next summer and are looking for suggested destinations. So far, we are looking at Italy and Thailand as our top two places. We are looking at having about 2 weeks, and we don’t want to do anything too touristy. He is seeking a cultural immersion, and I basically want something memorable. We want to be able to be married in that country, so I understand it limits our places. But if we can marry in say Italy, we may be able to then fly to France or Spain (where we can’t be married) and spend some time there too.
Advice, suggestions?
Robin
I haven’t eloped, but I was one of a few guests at a friend’s wedding in Kenya. She and her husband decided about 2 weeks before departing that they wanted to get married there (they were going anyway). The marriage is legal in the US, but they had to do some legwork to make sure it was.
MelD
I don’t know about the logistics, but Slovenia is just amazing. It’s one of those countries that has a lot of amazing, fairy tale locations without being overwhelmed like tourists, plus it’s close enough to Italy that you can easily do the rest of your trip there. It’s one of those countries that has great activities year round.
L from Oz
Second that – Slovenia is gorgeous. If you’re romantic, there’s all sorts of legends about the island in Lake Bled that would make it a great place to get married. It’s common enough among foreigners, but I wouldn’t imagine it’s cheap.
Chicago K
Thanks everyone! Slovenia does look beautiful from the pics I have seen – great suggestions!
Anonymous
I got married last December in Costa Rica. I would highly recommend it! It was beautiful and the people were very nice. It’s a little different than your average beach or tropical location because on the coast there are also mountains, and the middle of the country is very lush and green with beautiful volcanos. We chose an all-inclusive resort and the wedding planner took care of all the details. It was so easy to do. Originally we tried to go to St. Lucia, but it’s farther from the U.S. so the flight choices were much more limited (and expensive!)
Chicago K
We were looking at this region yesterday but it was unclear if we could marry anywhere here. Thanks for the suggestion! I will take another look.
How did you find the wedding planner and roughly how much does one cost?
AIMS
Haven’t done this myself, but most large all inclusives at these kinds of places, provide wedding planners, often for free. It’s basically a concierge for them, but that only does weddings.
If you look on many of these resort websites, there’ll be a section somewhere called “weddings” and they take care of just about everything.
Also, if you are worried about logistics — I think you can basically get married anywhere (save for in religious places that refuse to marry you) & then just file a certificate of marriage when you get back to the states. It’s really not a problem. For instance, in NY, you need a license and a ceremony. You’d get the license before you leave, and then you have the ceremony wherever — NY doesn’t care as far as I know. Also, most states will recognize various non traditional ceremonies — even ones performed by just you & the groom (you just both swear to it in front of a judge). It might be less of a hassle than you realize — I certainly know folks who got married in France & are valid in the US.
Congrats & good luck!
Chicago K
Thank you AIMS, I am definately going to look into this!
And to clarify my comment, you can marry in France, what I read just said you just have to be there for 40 days first – which wouldn’t be feasible for us due to work.
Jane-O
Can I lean on you all for advice? After a summer school class a couple weeks ago, my teenager was goofing around with some other kids. This one kid was throwing stuff at my son and his friends, all apparently in good fun. My son went and dumped about 1/4 of a water bottle (according to my son) on the kid’s backpack. The kid’s phone was in the backpack. He pulled the phone out and said it turned on (it is a droid). Still with me? 2 days later the kid calls my son and says that he owes him $90 for his phone deductable. The kid says he told his parents it was an accident and that my son should tell his parents the same. I told my son that it sounded fishy to me and that I would just play it out a bit. I honestly would be the first to cough up a payment if I thought it was appropriate, but I just don’t think so in this case. My point:
* 2 kids were playing around here. I don’t think the other kid has admitted his role in the hijinks.
* The phone appeared to be working -the kid called 2 days later. Would a little bit of water (per my son) -through a backpack- really break a phone? I think anything could have happened to the phone in that time.
* Just me, but I think a person’s phone is their own responsibility. Frankly I would NEVER ask someone else to pay this if the circumstances were reversed.
So the dad left a msg tonight asking for the $90. I do not know these people, but I think it’s rude to call on a Sunday night. What do you think? Frankly, I really don’t think we’re (son) is responsible -honestly I’m the type who is pretty tough w my kid. I can’t believe they would even ask for this. What do you think? What do you think about offering 1/2 as 2 kids were involved?
For the record: my husband wants it and them to go away, so he thinks we should just give them the $$. We’ll make our kid pay. What do you think??
ES
How well do you know the other family? Personally, I would probably reply with something like “I understand your frustration, but I seem to be getting a different story from my son. Would it be possible for us to meet so we can get a more cohesive story? I have no problem holding my son responsible for something he did, but I want to make sure we have all our facts straight before we get to that point.” Depending on how well you know them or how close your children are, you could invite them over to dinner (friendly more than defensive – our kids seems to be good friends, why not come over for dinner one night and we’ll discuss this further) or something like that.
Hope that helps
Chicago K
Yikes, I don’t have kids and think that ES gave great advice with having them over for dinner.
Personally, I agree with you – your phone is your responsibility. They are teenagers, IMO, old enough to know how to take care of a cell phone. I doubt getting the phone a little wet would ruin it honestly. I happen to have a Droid, and I’ve been known to talk while walking in the rain, just getting out of the shower, etc. I would think those would be comparable to a little moisture through a backpack.
And for what it’s worth…my ex once knocked his cell phone off our couch and into a glass of water. The things still worked even after that, the display was just a little funky. We had it replaced and the deductible was only $35. I think $90 sounds a bit high? Doesn’t he have insurance or he wants to buy a new phone on his own? I know Android phones are a lot more expensive and have larger fees, but I would check on the Verizon website and see where this amount came from.
Chicago K
well I just checked the Verizon website and it seems some people are complaining about a $90 deductible to replace the Droid. So I guess the amount is correct.
It still seems weird that anyone would call you up and demand you pay to replace their kids phone. I understand your husband wanting to do it and get it over with, and that’s probably the easiest thing to do. But the parents seem a bit out of line demanding it. I would go suggest the boys split the cost and try to get to the bottom of what happened. Good luck!
Callie
I think you need to be a bit more open to the possibility that your kid is responsible. Sure a phone may be the owner’s responsibility but keeping it in his backpack was an appropriate and responsible thing to do. It was your kid that, provoked or not, took water and poured it on someone else’s stuff. Sounds like it was enough water that they were concerned enough to ensure it worked at the time.
My understanding is that water damage is not necessarily instantaneous. If the kid’s cell phone was in his backpack but in a front pocket, 1/4 of a water bottle in the wrong spot on the backpack could absolutely have ruined the phone. I’m not familiar with the droid but that would be enough to do in a number of phones. In addition to which, I’ve always been told that if you do get electronics wet, you are better off letting them dry COMPLETELY before turning it on, so they may have exacerbated the issue.
Is your suspicion that the phone has broken under completely different circumstances and they are looking to find someone to cough up the $90? That just seems unlikely given the short delay between the incident and the other kid calling your son. Heck, the phone could have stopped working that same day and he may not have told his parents right away for fear of getting in trouble.
Anyway, I think a talk with the parents is in order so you can get the full story, but I think your kid is on the hook here. He was the one pouring water on a backpack without thinking about the contents.
divaliscious11
Well, playing or not, if your kid poured water in his bag, and the result is that the phone was damaged, your kid is responsible. It doesn’t matter if your kid didn’t intend to damage the phone, he intended to pour the water in the bag, so the damage was the result of an intentional act, and the intent transfers….
Its not just making it go away, its owning up to your kid’s responsibility.
LawyerChk
“The intent transfers . . . .” Diva, you’re letting your barbri/torts classes go to your head here. This just isn’t how it works outside a perfect legal theory world.
To the poster, I would probably refuse to pay for the phone (assuming your son’s story checks out). This is kids being kids, and I’d let them settle it. Besides, cell phones are perfectly okay with a little water if you follow proper procedure and let them dry out entirely before turning them back on (I’ve dropped two in pools)–it’s at least partially the other kid’s fault for not properly caring for the phone both before and after the water.
MelD
Your son admitted to pouring a rather significant amount of water on someone’s bag intentionally. It seems to me that he is responsible and should have to pay the $90. Kids throw things all the time. When I was teaching, I don’t remember any kid reacting by pouring water all over another student or his/her stuff. It just seems like an unexpected reaction to throwing a wad of paper or pencil at someone.
E2
Agree with this. What if the other kid had homework (though I guess it’s summer) or some other important written papers (e.g., a check or a journal)? Pouring water on someone’s stuff is pretty bad behavior and not comparable to “throwing stuff” assuming the stuff was relatively lightweight. Imagine if you threw a wad of paper at a coworker and he responding by pouring a cup of water into your purse… (extreme and sort of weird, but still).
I do think proposing half is appropriate, but you’re not on great grounds here.
Anonymous
If your son dumped 1/4 of a bottle of water in the backpack and damaged the phone, then I think he should pay for it. Even if they were goofing around, I don’t understand how the other child is responsible for your son’s decision to dump water in a backpack. Your son may not have known the phone was in the backpack, but it’s not like it’s unreasonable (or unforeseeable) that someone would keep a phone in a backpack.
As for the phone working immediately after the incident but not two days later, that’s consistent with water damage to electronic devices. My iPod got wet in the rain, was fine at the time, but fried thereafter. I looked it up on-line and apparently you’re supposed to give the device time to dry out BEFORE turning it on.
Bottom line, if you want to see the phone to make it hasn’t suffered physical damage unrelated to the water damage (cracked display or similar), that seems reasonable, but if the phone’s not working because your son poured water into the backpack, then I think he should pay the $90 deductible.
Also, I don’t think it’s inherently rude to call someone on a Sunday night, assuming it’s at a reasonable hour.
Anonymous
Anon 355 here–just read your post again and I see he poured the water ON, not IN, the backpack. So maybe you want to check and make sure there is water damage (or at least not obvious physical damage), but I still think your son is responsible for the water damage regardless of whether he poured the water IN or ON the backpack.
Robin
Geez. I can’t believe this is even a debate. Pay for the phone. As another poster stated — its very conceivable that SOMETHING in the backpack would be ruined by pouring water on it. Its also very likely an electronic device would be carried in a backpack. Your son screwed up. Fortunately its only a $90 screw up. Its a great opportunity to teach him a lesson that, even when you’re having “fun”, you can still do something stupid that causes damage and you have to pay for it whent hat happens. And its rude to call on a Sunday night? I don’t know anyone who knows that other than you.
Experienced
Thanks, ES. Actually we don’t know them at all!
Experienced
Sorry more: my son does not hang out with the young man. They were simply in a summer class together. I believe the father is an attorney.
RKS
I would still ask them to come over and talk about the situation, at least compare stories. If you’re not friends, skip the dinner part. But you do need to talk through this. I think splitting the cost 50/50 is reasonable. BTW, what was the kid throwing to prompt the water-pouring? I would have a different reaction if it were, say, rocks instead of paper. But in any case, your son also over-reacted. He should know that water could destroy or damage stuff in a backpack — books, phone, homework, you name it.
Also, I see nothing weird about calling on a Sunday night, unless it was after 9:30/10 pm. When else should he call you? It’s a safe time to assume people are home, vs. the workday when you are likely to be out of the house.
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