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Something on your mind? Chat about it here. (Also: Dallas readers, please come on out tonight for the meet-up at Sambuca Uptown! We can't wait to meet you all!)
This weekend, we're digging these fabulous new flats from Frye. Love the pink, love the buckle, love the curve to the toe. It's available in tons of colors, too — the berry (pictured), black, dark brown, a light brown “cognac”, a dark yellow “curry”, a purple “eggplant”, a beige “tan,” and a lovely, bright violet. They're $148 at Zappos.com. Frye – Carson Harness Ballet (Berry Leather) – Footwear
clumsy
Got those Johnston and Murphy shoes in the mail yesterday. They are AMAZING! super comfy considering the nearly 4 inch heel height and fabulously stable, even for clumsy clumsy me.
Thanks for the great recommendation Corporette!
RR
I love them, but I just don’t think I can walk in a heel that high. I’m really debating, because they are comfy even super high. I’m afraid I’ll break an ankle.
AIMS
I am debating getting a pair. Do you remember where they were from? I can’t seem to find the post.
RR
Johnston and Murphy’s website.
Ang
I’m so sad….I hemmed and hawed about ordering these shoes, and didn’t. Now, everyone who bought them is giving rave reviews…and there are only limited sizes left. Damn my indecision!
Anon, a mouse!
Has anyone ever bought Softt pumps? If so, what’s your opinion? I generally don’t do very well in heels and am looking for sturdy ones that won’t pinch my feet.
Nancy P
I just bought my first pair. VERY comfortable. So comfortable, in fact, that I chose to wear them on my commute instead of flip flops. Just make sure you get the right size — I’m concerned mine might be too small, because they were tight at the end of the night.
v
For some reason, they’re never properly proportioned for my feet. One size will be too small and the next will be falling off my feet. Too bad because they are very comfortable in terms of walking.
Nancy P
v, this is what I’m worried about . . . I know the next bigger size will be huge. Just hoping they’ll stretch a teeny bit.
Anon101
Mine felt tight when i first started wearing them, but i took some alcohol and rubbed it on the inside of the shoe to stretch out the leather, then walked around for a few hours and since then i’ve never had a fit problem.
Kaye
You can buy a spray to spray on the shoes that will help them stretch. It works really well (though it works better on higher-quality leather).
Anon, a mouse!
Did you get your usual size? I noticed on Zappos a lot of reviewers said they run half a size small.
Nancy P
I’m between a 6 and 6.5, and got the 6. It was DSW, so that was my only option. Sigh.
Anon, a mouse!
Yeah, I was hoping to get them on the cheap at 6pm but it seems like full price Nordstrom will be a better bet so I can try them and return them if they don’t work out. Oh well.
anone
I was not pleased with them. They seemed fine at first but then started to rub funny and I wound up with huge blisters on the bottom of my foot. I think you are better off going with a higher end brand like Cole Haan, especially if you can find something on sale.
Anon, a mouse!
Thanks. I have a lot of foot problems – I generally need very good arch support. Not sure if Cole Haan would provide that.
Nancy P
I just ordered my first pair of Cole Haan Airs, and they just did not work. The (vamp?) was really tight and cut across the top of my foot. So sad.
RR
Cole Haan does not work for me either. I always feel like my foot is smashed into them, no matter what style I try.
LL
I wearing my first cole hann airs today. Black bootie currently on sale at Nordstrom’s. They are the most comfortable pair of boots (or heels) I have ever worn. But order half size up.
Caitlin
I also find that the pumps run a little bit tight, but I was able to get them stretched at a cobbler and they fit well. I also have some Mary Janes from them with a stretchy band that fit great as well, but I just wear them with pants.
PJB
Virtually every female lawyer in my office has Soffts, including me. I also wear Cole Haan, which are sexier and more stylin. The caveat however is that we practice in Hawaii, where open toe shoes and sling backs are appropriate year round. Hence, many of the shoes worn in my office are not pumps.
Having said that, I’ve just bought my first pair of Sofft pumps — suede — and they are very comfortable and true to size (for me that’s an 8 medium). And another lawyer in my office wears only pumps because her feet are “too narrow”for open toe shoes. She says her feet slide around in them . She swears by Cole Haan and Ann Taylor pumps.
LawLib
I love Sofft! I have wide feet, a high instep, and also require arch support; Sofft shoes deliver for all my foot quirks. Sometimes they come in wide width, but if not, I go a half size up (order 7 instead of 6.5W). Not sure if this is a concern for you.
cbackson
They’re the only heels I wear–I have three pairs, and love them. The key is the nice, roomy toebox.
Anon-J
I love Sofft pumps. I have several pair, and have always found them to run true-to-size. For standard pumps, I haven’t had any fit issues; I do have one pair of peep toes that rubbed a bit at the toe opening, but I highly recommend Sofft. You can often find them quite cheap if you do a little googling.
AEK
I have two pairs—each a half-size smaller than my “normal.” One fits perfectly, and the other has a toe box that’s bit too wide, but overall the shoe is fine. Both have high heels and are very comfortable yet not not frumpy. I’d say try them!
Anon, a mouse!
Thanks everyone! I’m going to get a pair and report back, although I’m now completely confused as to what size I should get – I’ll probably wait until I can try them on in person.
Makeup Junkie
I love Sofft, I would recommend half a size up. Mine are so, so comfy, and I usually wear Danskos so I am used to comfort shoes! I buy mine from Marshalls shoe shop, if you have one near you, snap them up!
An aside, I thought Cole Haan Air were horribly uncomfortable, tight in the heel and big in the toe box.
Anon, a mouse!
OK, if you are a Dansko girl and you also like Sofft, I’ll have to try them. I love my Danskos.
KelliJ
I find that the fit of Sofft shoes is very shoe specific. I have a pair of black suede mary jane style pumps which I LOVE. So comfortable. I can walk for miles in them. I got a pair of pumps that looked just like the mary janes w/o the strap. They were SO uncomfortable.
Andromeda
Love mine. I have these 3-inch-heel Mary Janes: http://www.sofftshoe.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=1656 (Concur with above that they may run small — I normally wear an 8.5, my Soffts are an 8.) I’ve worn them for 16 hours straight and walked for miles. And I have crazy shoe fit problems most of the time myself, so I am beyond happy about these shoes.
mille
All of my heels (before my back injury) were Sofft. I love the fit, and they have really nice heels that go with business suits and still look pretty. I found that they fit true to size. I have sold and am still selling all of my Sofft heels on ebay, and it makes me sad each box that goes out to someone else. I love those shoes. And I was terribly with heels. The Sofft shoes were sturdy, thick enough heels to be walkable but designed well enough to not look clunky.
You can return 6pm shoes, but are responsible for the shipping. Zappos, which runs 6pm, are full price but shipping both ways is free, which is great for me because I don’t live near a nordstrom.
Anon, a mouse!
What’d you do to your back? I herniated a disc a year and a half ago and have some nerve damage, but I can now wear heels again, not for walking a lot but around the office is fine. So maybe hang on to them?
(If you don’t hang on to them – what size are you selling? 8.5-9, perhaps?)
mille
Size 9. Most listed under new- never worn; ebay is bgrl412. I’ll be listing more over the next few days. I have a herniated disc that I’ve had for years, and also a knee injury. I’m downsizing my closets because we are making room for baby, and it is depressing to have a closet full of things I can’t wear.
I am looking at back surgery in the next year, after baby comes, so it would be awhile before I could wear them again.
Anon, a mouse!
Hmm. I know every herniated disc is different, but I do yoga regularly and have had no problems with it for months. When I don’t do my physical therapy or yoga for a while, it tends to flare up again. My neurologist said that if I feel fine I can wear whatever shoes I like in the office, where I am mostly sitting down or walking on carpet. I didn’t ever have surgery and I don’t plan to.
Thanks for sharing your username – I’ll keep an eye out. 6pm is having a big sale on Sofft but they don’t have the shoes I want in my size.
AN
I got a pair of sandals. Comfy but too narrow for my admittedly wide feet. Will have to return them.
houda
I got two in the same style (brown and black) I frankly cannot imagine what my life was like pre-Sofft. All I know is that since I got them I wear them non-stop and will never consider any other brand for office appropriate shoes
3L
No!!! Dislike the extreme rounded toe — screams “little kid” to me and the color is not helping
ceb
Whatever it takes to make me look a few years younger . . .
JessC
Disagree. I wear flats like that all the time. I don’t think they make me look any younger than I already am.
AN
I have a similar pair of Naturaliser flats and they look pretty classy with jeans. If you’re outfit screams “little girl”, they’ll add to it. but if you’re put-together in general, I don’t see why they’d be perceived that way.
Shayna
Agree — They’re a little too juvenile for me
Suze
So jealous of the corporettes in Dallas…I would love to get out tonight and meet a few of my ‘friends’ from this site and Kat. Of course, it would be a sartorial challenge, but I would give it my best. Hope you ladies have a blast! And I hope the event goes so well that Kat starts planning more around the country:).
Anon
I’m a Dallas-ite and can’t make it tonight, but I hope everyone who does has a fabulous time and convinces Kat to come back again!
fresh jd
Where are you located Suze, if you don’t mind me asking? :)
Suze
813 area code….Central/West Fla.
How are you doing? I was telling the hubby (also an ‘old head’ lawyer) tonight about my friends stressing re the bar. If you happen to be taking the Florida Bar, please reply over the weekend and I will make some arrangements for ‘comfort stops’ while you are here. And – I am *assuming* you are not in Fla. – best wishes, blue skies, zen and all that – you are in the home stretch, I know it’s a b*tch, but from what I have learned from these communications, I am SURE you are passing and employed soon :)!
- j -
Ugh. Another FL bar taker here. This is not fun!
fresh jd
Aww, thanks. I’m NY, meh!
Treating myself tomorrow to sushi and a relaxing aromatherapy facial @ Shiseido tomorrow ;)
Suze
Fresh jd – Yay on the sushi and facial – both delicious! Where are you going for your bar trip? Only a few days now :).
-j-, your blog is very cute. I’m in 813, too, and would love to know where the ‘good’ Marshalls/TJ Maxx/etc are (I moved here only a little while ago…still have trouble getting back to 275 from International ;). And, yeah, I know a bunch of Fla. bar takers . It’s just MIZ! I took it (gasp) in 1987 and swore that I would only take it once (luckily I did only take it once) and I just hated every minute of it. Back then, everybody always planned to go have some giant martini/steak deal @ Berns but once I got out of the second day, the only thing I could do was go STRAIGHT home (a 5 hr drive back to Sou FL) and to bed for like 18 hours. The good news is that fierce studying does pay off, sounds like you have that down, and it will all be over Weds @ 4:30!
Good luck to both of you!
- j -
fresh jd – that sounds fabulous. Will be poolside with with a JUG of margaritas and another fellow bar-taker here. Sorry to hijack — GOOD LUCK!
fresh jd
I’m going to Greece…been there before and must return! :)
Suze
ooooooohhhhh! Greece – wow!!!!! Hubby is taking me somewhere fabulous for milestone bday (beginning w/ -ack – 5) and Greece is one of the top three contenders. Sicily and Provence being the others…
Santorini, further out, what are you doing…so envious!!
fresh jd
Back from my Shiseido facial, darlings. Lovely and my skin is smooth as a baby’s bottom. I’m a sucker for getting conned into buying products so by the time I got out, I had no $ left for sushi :/ It was worth it…I can always eat at home :)
Ooh congrats Suze, I am sure you are fabulous at whatever age!! Havent had time to plan my trip, but it’s easy to figure out what to do once you get there.
Santorini is gorgeous! But beware of the urban legend that couples who go there and up splitting up. I only heard about it recently but in hindsight I did go there w/ a former flame and we broke up after!
KelliJ
Love Greece! Been there twice. Mainland + Santorini then back the following year in Crete. Hmmm…the man I went to Santorini with is now an ex-BF. I always thought of taking my hubby but given the legend, I just might have to think twice. ;-)
My milestone b-day is next year and it’s between Paris and Rome.
Suze
The facial sounds just fabulous! Yeah, I’d forego sushi too for a product splurge :).
Well, an unplanned trip is like the best, I think. And Greece, wow. Just wow. But now that you mentioned that urban legend…hmmm. The primary objective of this trip (which will be next summer when the actual milestone occurs) is to do a little cooking school thing in an ‘appropriate’ location. Maybe I will ‘risk avoid’ Greece and gravitate toward Sicily…we’ll just have to see. In the meantime, we leave in 2 weeks for Netherlands (a few days in Amsterdam and then up the north coast to bike/hike/chill) – very excited about that. But I still envy Greece!
Anyway, hope you are surviving the home stretch well. You will be fine and it will all be over soon!! Stay strong!
Suze
Wow, @KelliJ, now I really am thinking ‘no’ on Greece with the hubby! Two corporettes with similar Santorini experiences per the legend…yikes!
Here’s to milestones in 2011 ;-)!
fresh jd
Noooo ladies, Greece is a must-go! There are so many fabulous islands and cities besides Santorini (if you subscribe to the legend). There are thousands of islands, and each of has its own dynamic (i.e. Mykonos is wild party island, Corfu is nature and green lush at its finest, Santorini is honeymoon isle, Naxos is sailing and family isle, etc. etc.). Grab a lonely planet guide and GOOOO! I also recommend a day trip to 3 small islands near the port (Aegea, Hydra and some other I forget).
KelliJ
Don’t worry, Suze. My ex-BF and I were on our way to splitzville before we hit the beaches of Santorini! And I really would go to Santorini with my hubby with no fears. I completely agree with FreshJD. Go to Greece! The islands are magical. Each one unique.
Nancy P
Does anyone have recommendations — besides Cole Haan Air, Sofft, Born, and Clarks — for cute but really comfortable shoes? I just bought these and am in love with them:
http://www.zappos.com/born-macadamia-gold-metallic
Right now I’m looking for a pair of ballet flats/skimmers. I can’t keep walking around the city without padding and support — it’s killing my ankles!
KZ
I got those same sandals in pewter and LOVE them. Yay, Borns!
Nancy P
If you previously posted this on Corporette, then you were my inspiration!
KZ
yep:-) Glad they worked out!
Anon
Mine too – got them in black :)
NYC
I got some Born flip flops and love them, too. Based on a recommendation from someone who makes orthotics, I bought some Earth shoes for weekends. They are almost uniformly ugly, but were so shockingly comfortable that I had to get them. I got the most attractive pair I could find. He also recommended Taryn Rose, which I am going to try on tonight (and appears to be on sale at 6pm, per the announcement to the right). Looks like she makes some ballet type flats. Let us know what you find!
Sarah
try nurture — they are a dillard’s brand. Some of them are ugly, but they have many cute flats and heels
3L
I bought a pair of Nurture low heels last summer and they were the most painful shoes I’ve ever worn. They completely shredded the back of my heel and ankles. They had lots of cushioning in the footbed, but I didn’t really care about that when it felt like the back of the shoe had wire in it digging into my foot. I tried so many things to loosen the back up, but they never broke in. I ended up going back to an old pair of Nine West pumps to make it through my summer job, and while I would never describe those as “comfortable,” they were an improvement over the Nurtures.
Of course, if you buy a pair you plan on wearing socks that come up past your ankle, then they might be fine. I mostly wear skirts and dresses, and even when I wear pants it’s way too hot out to think about socks, so that wasn’t an option for me.
3L
Oops. “…plan on wearing *with* socks…”
legalicious07
I bought this pair of Nurture sandals from Dillards over the 4th of July holiday (for about $35 if memory serves me correctly), and I wore them for the first time this past week.
THEY ARE SO COMFORTABLE! I even remarked to a friend after wearing them all day for lots of walking around town that these felt better than my flat sandals and padded flip-flopps.
I’m sorry 3L had a tough time with her pair, but this style is very comfortable. Extra soft footbed and no digging in one’s heels.
http://www.dillards.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=301&langId=-1&storeId=301&productId=502051197&view=20&No=20&N=1000425+2010117&searchUrl=%2Fendeca%2FEndecaStartServlet%3Fview%3D20%26No%3D20%26N%3D1000425%2B2010117&R=03159258
Anon, a mouse!
In my experience, the back digs in when it comes up too high on your ankle. The same pair of shoes can come up too high on one person and be fine on another. A $6 gel insert under my heel that raises my heel up about 1/4 inch almost always does the trick to stop the shoe from digging in.
Anon-J
I got these a few weeks ago in brown and love them: http://www.zappos.com/jambu-odyssey
They’re casual, but super comfy and way cuter than they look. Great for commuting and walking around. I’ve had great luck with Jambus.
mille
I find my comfortable but cute shoes on a blog– barkingdogshoes.com. I have found that a lot of the brands she recommends work for me. Even if I don’t like the featured shoe, I look up the brand and find others I like.
Makeup Junkie
Try Dansko, 6pm runs sales on them regularly.
L
I just got a pair of Merrell sandals and they are v comfy. I have bunions and so think I am starting to need a wide shoe in the ball of the foot, but my foot is narrow top to bottom, which doesn’t help matters.
Shayna
Naturalizer sandals are great – though some styles can be a little clunky, others are much sleeker
NYC
Oh yay, open thread. Regarding Sofft shoes, my mom loves them and wore them to my wedding. I just got a pair of navy patent wedge sandals that I LOVE. But I ordered a pair of pumps and the fit was all wrong. I think it is shoe specific.
I wanted to thank all the corporettes for the deposition advice. It was last week and went very well! The best tip was to have a small physical response to an answer (press your fingers together under the table) so you don’t say “okay” or “and” at the start of the next question. Sometimes I would even nod…it encouraged a conversational flow without looking ridiculous in the transcript. (The videographer just films on the witness)
Also, I’m wearing that Nordstrom’s juniors cardigan today over a black dress. Cute! Thanks also to the commenter who pointed out Nordstrom Rack is now in NYC!! I didn’t know!
SF Bay Associate
That was my finger squeeze tip! I’m thrilled that it worked for you too! Wow, that totally made my day :).
anon23
For future reference – I also got great advice that silence doesn’t show up on a transcript. When you need time to compose your next question, look at the docs, etc. – take the time. The awkward silence will NOT be on the transcript – or it will just say ‘brief pause’ which is much better than a bunch of garbled verbal nonsense that will show up!
Suze
I am thinking of getting these Borns to wear with jeans, simple sundresses, khakis, run around on weekends, etc. Any thoughts?
http://www.zappos.com/product/7637978/color/106
Anon, a mouse!
If you can run around in a shoe that high and clunky, more power to you! I could not.
I don’t think I’d like them with a sundress but they’d look good with pants.
Suze
:) well, a-a-mouse, I meant running as a metaphorical term for doing errands, going to kid sporting events, maybe getting lucky enough to go to mall or be taken out to drinks/dinner/movie by hubby. But what I was wondering about the whole Born thing is aren’t they supposed to be ridiculously comfortable despite height/substance of shoe? I really like a few inches on a casual shoe (ballet flats are not me) but I want to be comfortable. Oh, and I think you are right about sundress no, but what about a denim skirt (short but not toooooo) or maybe capris?
Anon, a mouse!
Yes, denim skirt; depends on the particular pair of capris. The kind of fitted, cuffed cargo-like ones that are popular now would probably look good with these shoes. I knew what you meant by running around, but I doubt I could make it through a grocery trip with 3 1/4 inch heels. Report back on how comfy they are please – I’ve been thinking about buying a pair of Borns myself.
Suze
Yah, the 3 inch thing is maybe more than my ‘run arounds’ can do…I’ve been in wedge mules (probly like two inches but from two to three and w/o the ‘wedge’ is BIG) for years and just want to get past that ‘look’. Right after I force myself to do ALW (actual legal work) for at least three hours tomorrow, I think I am going to break down on this…plan to check Fresh jd’s suggestion too. Promise to report back!
fresh jd
I have been dying for these shoes, they are similar-looking: http://www.zappos.com/seychelles-gypsy-teal
J
i like seyschells but i think they run a wee bit big, so you may want to keep that in mind. Those are super cute– good taste!
SRS
I like Seychelles and find them super comfy, but I have to go a full size down in them or they just fall off my feet.
Suze
So, I loved these and attempted…but alas, none in my size. Boo! I got the Borns instead. Hoping they work for my purposes!
CTx
Ooh I’ve been looking at those in orange and waiting for them to restock my size, but I may be in luck now if they run large. Thanks, ladies!
Apple
I am thinking of buying a LeSportsac tote to haul my assorted stuff to work in. This wouldn’t be my work bag, but rather the second bag I carry for all my crap – shoes, lunch, etc. Currently I’m using a plain canvas tote but it’s a bit too small and also not waterproof – I’d like a tote I can slip my purse inside when it’s raining. This is the one I was thinking of: http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=292722&CategoryID=26846&LinkType=PDPZ1
Does anyone have a Le Sportsac? Comments on quality, durability, etc? It is a steep price for a simple tote so I want to make sure it’s worth it.
LP7
I have one I use as a casual purse on the weekends when I don’t want to use my “high end” purse — no complaints. I haven’t really put it through the wringer, but it still looks brand new after about 6 months. It’s comfortable to carry around and I like all the zippers/compartments too. If you go to Macy’s in person, they usually have some on sale (though it may not be your particular pattern). I would also shop around online first.
RR
I don’t have a tote, but I have a duffel and have been extremely happy with the quality and durability. I stuff it completely fully, and I haven’t had any problems with the zippers. Mine is the size that Kat always recommends.
Gigi
(Reposted below; stupid posting-too-fast message.)
I have a smaller LeSportSac purse that I use every day. It’s going on 2 years old and is my only purse (except my black LeSportSac, which I used for work when I had work, and interviews, which I have rarely these days). I think they’re great and when mine dies, I plan to get more LeSportSacs. (I’m not a fan of leather so this is another plus for me.) My everyday bag looks a little banged up these days (the lighter patches have darkened, and some of the color is scratched), but I think any bag would look like that considering what I put my bags through. It’s also coming apart at one seam, but if I knew how to sew/were less lazy, I would fix it myself. Instead, I am waiting for my fairy godmother to appear and organize the mice who will repair it for me.
In short, I am happy with this brand and (not being a bag-lover) will probably stick with it forever. And of my friends who buy LeSportSac, none of them is dissatisfied.
K
I just bought the large LeSportsac travel tote as my “chuck everything into it and haul it around” bag. I considered the one that you are looking at (the “ericka”) but thought that it would be too small :)
I had a LeSportsac gym bag that I used for many many years and it held up very well.
Anon, a mouse!
Thanks all! I did check out the bag in person as well, but wanted to get reviews from my trusted sources here before I spent the money.
Anon, a mouse!
Oops, I just realized that when I posted about the Le Sportsac I was logged into WordPress and filled out the fields with my blogger name and I replied not logged in… let’s see if this works.
ES
this might not help because i’m sure quality has changed, but my family still has a tote that we carry on trips all over the country after at least 30 years. granted, it has spent a lot of time in the closet, but still, 30 years is quite impressive. it looks banged up, but no holes or big problems.
legalchef
once you know for sure you want the specific style, check online for different colors – amazon often has colors/patterns that aren’t always in stores.
i love lesportsac – i ordered this – http://www.amazon.com/LeSportsac-Cleo-Tilt-A-Whirl/dp/B003JH0WVS/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=apparel&qlEnable=1&qid=1280151375&sr=1-4 – in the tilt a whirl pattern as a weekend/vacation bag, but i am not sure how i feel about it. thoughts?
A
Kat- I’m seeing double. The weekend open thread posted twice!
Gigi
I have a smaller LeSportSac purse that I use every day. It’s going on 2 years old and is my only purse (except my black LeSportSac, which I used for work when I had work, and interviews, which I have rarely these days). I think they’re great and when mine dies, I plan to get more LeSportSacs. (I’m not a fan of leather so this is another plus for me.) My everyday bag looks a little banged up these days (the lighter patches have darkened, and some of the color is scratched), but I think any bag would look like that considering what I put my bags through. It’s also coming apart at one seam, but if I knew how to sew/were less lazy, I would fix it myself. Instead, I am waiting for my fairy godmother to appear and organize the mice who will repair it for me.
In short, I am happy with this brand and (not being a bag-lover) will probably stick with it forever. And of my friends who buy LeSportSac, none of them is dissatisfied.
E2
How many interview suits do you all have?
I just starting interviewing for the first time since college (first one was yesterday!). In college, one suit was fine – usually there was a first round interview on campus and then a second round with multiple people at their office. Following yesterday’s interview, I was left with the impression that I could get called back for at least another two rounds before they’d make an offer and I’ve heard of people with even more rounds than that (e.g., sister in law who went in to a bank on SIX different occasions before scoring an offer recently).
I have multiple suits but only one nice black suit that I’d consider suitable (ha) for an interview. Should I get more or is it fine to just change my shell & jewelry? If I do get more, should I stray from black? I’m a skirt-only kind of girl so not looking to alternate between skirt and pants.
Another Sarah
I have 3 or 4 suits that would be “interview” suits, and really they come with both the pants and the skirt so I really have 6 or 8 “interview” suits. But if you have a really nice black suit, and you aren’t going to wear suits for your job, I don’t think you necessarily NEED to get another one. The way I see it, an interviewer isn’t going to think, “She just wore that the last time I saw her…only owns one black suit, -10 points.” And I think to most people (aside from the people on this site, mais oui) a black suit is a black suit is a black suit. Especially if your black suit is a classic nice black suit without embellishments. If your suit makes noises, get a new one.
BUT you would never hear me saying “Meh, let’s not buy a suit today.” So if you have the funds and you want to get another suit, go for it. Just make sure it’s a “nice” one that you can wear to more than an interview. If you’re looking to stray from black, a dark charcoal is always nice. Depending on your industry, navy is good too.
E2
Thanks for your response! I have a fantastic classic black suit without anything loud about it. I’m not looking to stray from black necessarily, though I would if people think interviewers would find it odd for someone to repeatedly show up in a black skirt suit – agree that buying a different black skirt suit seems silly and unlikely to be appreciated unless I go for something with more detailing. The vast majority of jobs I’m looking at (hedge funds) are business casual and events with required suits are few and far between. I do own 3-4 other suits but they’re not of the quality and/or color I’d want to wear to an interview.
Grump
Maybe you can dress your suit up in different ways? I mean rather than wearing a button down/shell, you could wear something like a jewel tone pussy bow blouse under? I think that would look lovely under a black suit. I actually think navy silk charmeuse (sp) and black look awesome together – but any jewel tone silk blouse would look gorgeous with nude nylons and patent heels. If I was the kind of interviewer who remembered someone’s attire, I’d probs then remember you as the girl with the gorgeous tops rather than the one who just wore a black suit every time.
Gigi
I’ve found it helpful to have at least one back-up suit in case something goes wrong (spill, tear, stain, smell, etc.) with your primary suit (especially if you’re interviewing with multiple places and may have interviews two days in a row, with no time for dry-cleaning). I have a nice DKNY suit that I consider an investment (thereby justifying the retail price), and then a backup Ann Taylor Loft suit for which I paid about $140.
E2
I’m currently employed so really trying to avoid scheduling interviews too frequently (one firm at a time, basically) but that’s still a good point.
Is charcoal the agreed-upon color? Can anyone recommend a nice charcoal skirt suit (preferably one that comes in petites, and preferably on sale!)? :-)
Anon, a mouse!
Charcoal, navy, brown are all fine. A forest green or dark red (burgundy?) is usually fine if that’s your style, but then again it probably isn’t your style if you’re a regular Corporette reader. Khaki is probably fine on a 90 degree day.
I had a great lightweight wool suit from J. Crew that I loved. Past tense, because it stopped fitting me, sadly.
KM
Brooks Brothers’ Summer Sale is still going on. I just bought a new black skirt suit for 50% off. I think they also had the same suit in different colors, I saw it in a navy pinstripe that was really pretty. Not sure about charcoal though.
Anon, a mouse!
I have 2 conservative, dark suits and 2 fun ones, plus 3 jackets that don’t have a matching bottom. The 2 conservative suits have both pants and a skirt but I never wear the pants. I think it’s good to have 2 suits, but not necessary. If you change your top and accessories, and the interviews aren’t two days in a row, no one would notice.
mille
I did all of my interviews in black suits. It is classic and easy, and you will never look out of place. I believe that all you would need to do is change the shirt underneath and you will be fine with the one suit. If you do get another, I suggest navy blue. You can use all the same shoes, shells and accessories as you do the black suit. I don’t believe the people interviewing you will even notice. Charcoal grey is good as well, but I’ve never been a fan of anything lighter. Just my own personal style– my bottom looks huge in light pants.
I also mostly wear skirts. I bought 2 skirts with each jacket so I’d have more to wear, but that won’t help with your problem of worrying about the suit being the same. Most of my in-court suits are Lands End, and I was able to buy longer and shorter skirts in colors that matched the jacket. Now, though, I’ve figured out that my juries like it better when the attorney isn’t in a matching “fancy” suit, so I haven’t worn matching in a long time.
And, sadly, this reminds me that, as I posted several weeks ago, I don’t even have any suits because my husband mistakenly took the dry-cleaning to goodwill. Sadness.
Ang
Aw, I remember your Goodwill story. :( I read it to my husband when you first posted and I believe his comment was something like, “I wouldn’t bother to come home if I did that with your suits.”
Suze
Oh, yes, I remember too, that was a tragedy! Isn’t there a little silver lining, though – if I remember correctly,mille, you’re in the market for some maternity clothes, right? Which means that post-baby you don’t have to go through the humiliation/frustration of seeing which pre-baby clothes fit/fit differently/just DON’T fit…instead, you get to just start all brand new!!
Shayna
I would just swap out the shell and jewelry – especially if you’re not sure you’re going to be in a job requiring suits every day.
houda
I used to have one very weird suit, the jacket was long but the skirt was very short, it was ‘cute’ during my freshman year but though I still have it, I had to relegate it to the back of my closet during interviews. Which means at some point I had limited budget and no suit for interviews/
I bought one navy pinstripe skirt suit that fits wonderful, and have worn it to my interviews, job fairs, you name it.
Just change the shell/shirt and jewelry.
On some rare occasions I would wear the suit separates but then it was acceptable in my field of work.
MM
Can we talk about peep-toes? When I was growing up, in the Midwest, I was told that it was inappropriate to wear any type of peep toe or open toe in the office, as it is unprofessional. In fact, I think it was explicitly in the dress code at my first two jobs. Is that not the rule anymore? Is that a regional thing?
E2
Varies by office here in NYC. I don’t wear peep toes but they’re totally fine in my office, as is open heel, but not both (we’re biz casual and this is specified in our dress code).
MelD
I’m in FL and started out in the workforce about 12 years ago when pantyhose and closed toe shoes were required as part of a business casual dress code. These days I see bare legs/peep toes as part of a professional wardrobe.
Suze
With MelD. Peep toes not at all a problem here…in fact, part of the wardrobe.
ceb
Perhaps it is regional, but I tend to think that there is just a general “loosening up” of dress codes and what is appropriate. My office used to be VERY conservative: No open toe shoes, women had to wear hose every day (even with pants), etc.
However, a few years back the code was revamped. Now our dress code allows open toe shoes if “toes are neatly groomed and pedicured.” I haven’t actually ever taken them up on the offer, but it is nice to know that I have the option when not in trial.
anone
Wait, pantyhose with pants? How would they even know if you were violating that rule? Seems like it would get very hot and uncomfortable too.
Kaye
I’m going to guess that meant “no bare feet” – basically, pantyhose-material socks. Knee-highs. That’s how I read it, anyway.
Anon, a mouse!
As recently as 4 years ago when I still worked in the midwest, this was the rule. My aunt also tells me this is still the rule at her financial job in Chicago. However, on the East Coast, it seems to be A-OK.
J
They are acceptable in Houston in most offices that i am aware of, but its really hot here.
JEM
I am looking at buying my third suit ever and I am looking for recommendations on colour!
Right now I have your very basic, very conservative J. Crew black wool suit with pants, skirt, two-button blazer. I love it – fits great, and it’s my go-to interview suit (and will be my first choice for fall OCIs).
I also have a brown suit non-wool suit which I bought on a whim because it was $50 for both pieces and it looked great on me – but I wouldn’t wear it on an interview I don’t think.
Now I need a third suit – I think I’m going to go with J. Crew since their suits fit me well and I know what size to order (I’m not in the US so I don’t have as many B&M options) but I’m open to other suggestions. I’m thinking grey…should I go with a dark grey or a lighter grey or even a charcoal? Or would a navy option be better….?
Personally, I like light grey suits and love grey in general…but I am worried that a light grey suit is not formal enough to be a second interview suit? Is this true???
Help please!
ACE
Navy all the way!!! And, I only say this because you want “power” suits for interviews and well grey just doesn’t convey “power” suit. Although, I love grey – get the grey after you get the gig – is my 2 cents.
Another Sarah
I’m another vote for Navy. But if I were to choose a gray, a dark charcoal gray is better than light. You’re right in thinking that a light gray isn’t formal enough.
JessC
I’ll vote gray, but go with a darker, charcoal grey over a lighter one. I think a dark grey suit can convey as much power/seriousness as a black suit.
While I love navy (and definitely think you should have one at some point) I find grey to be an easier to work with neutral than navy. Everything looks good with grey. Not QUITE everything works with navy, IMO.
C2
Definitely grey! I agree that navy is more of a “power” suit color, but while you’re on a student budget, being able to mix and match shells, shoes, and accessories between your suits is huge. Everything you already wear with the black (and probably with the brown) will work with the grey. I personally find darker grey to be more formal than light grey, but many, many of the attorneys in my firm wear light grey to court, client meetings, etc., so you could get away with it if that’s what you prefer.
zee
Grey. You can use most of the shoes you’ll get for both your black and brown suits with grey. I agree with the charcoal recommendation. Solid, strong color.
MelD
What color do you think looks better on you? I think that darker gray and navy are equally conservative, so it’s more a matter of personal preference and picking a style that works for your figure. If you can find a suit that has a coordinating skirt and pants, I think that would be the best choice.
As for navy being more of a power suit color, I think it is more popular in business than it is in law. Gray/black seem to be the go-to colors if you are in the legal field, but I wear my navy suit for interviews regularly. I don’t find it much harder to coordinate than my gray interview suit.
E
I think with my coloring, I don’t look all that great in all black. When I think of what my father (an attorney who wears a suit every day) wears when he wants to look sharp and powerful, I think of a charcoal gray or navy blue suit, so that’s what I go with. I was actually raised to believe that only funeral directors wore black suits (I know I know, stone me if you want, it’s not true, but that’s what I was told), so I would go with charcoal or navy. A very subtle pinstripe in either one could look really sharp, and as long as it’s a formal, serious cut, I think you’ll look great!
Anonymous
I once heard that men don’t wear black suits because President Lincoln was shot while wearing them. Old wives tale?
Anonymous
and by “them” I meant “one.” oops!
Anon, a mouse!
I read something about this just the other day and thought it was interesting: “The traditional reason a gentleman does not wear a black suit is because they were historically worn by “the help,” and a Gentleman in the know wouldn’t don the same color in order to avoid confusion. Today, we are hopefully less elitist, but black is still typically the color of the working uniform. A man in a black suit would probably not be mistaken for a waiter but would appear as though he is uneducated about clothing, and that alone is reason enough not to wear a black suit. There are aesthetic reasons for avoiding black as well. Black suits are extremely stark and do not pair as well with common tie colors. For me, a black suit is also more difficult to focus the eye, especially during the day, when compared with other “softer” colors like gray, brown or navy.”
From http://cubiclechicblog.com/.
Anon
That’s funny, because I have been told that in UK, there is “no brown in town.” When I have traveled there for work I have purposely worn ONLY black suits. I think brown is supposed to be the color of leisure/country pursuits?
Anon, a mouse!
@Anon 2:07 – the above applies to men only! Black suits on women are generally considered the most conservative/formal option.
LL
I vote grey (but try to get a darker grey). It is mix into your wardrobe easier. I have navy suits and I still worry about what color shoes to wear.
L
I like gray. Any color really, but if you are interviewing in the fall, charcoal is better than a light gray. I have never worn a navy suit – doesn’t suit my coloring and I don’t know how to match/go with it (plus, navy pumps, ewww).
Anonymous
Wait, now I’m all confused.
So what’s the best color to wear for a summer interview? If you show up in the heat in a black skirtsuit, is that weird? Brown? Very light gray?
Anon, a mouse!
I think light colors are more appropriate for the summer than for the cooler seasons, but the inverse isn’t true (i.e. dark colors are fine in both the summer and cooler seasons). A khaki suit in December looks off, but a navy or black suit in July looks fine. If you have both a lighter and darker option, though, I’d go with the lighter option in hot weather in case you end up walking to lunch or something during the interview.
BBR
I disagree. We are talking OCI so you won’t be going for lunch, I would go darker and more formal.
Anon, a mouse!
@BBR – I didn’t see the OP mentioning OCI, plus it’s summer, not fall, so I doubt she’s referring to OCI.
fresh jd
Right, sorry @132 was me (recent grad interviewing now, not OCI). I have a Tahari khaki skirtsuit and a very light gray Tahari pantsuit that I was intending on wearing to an interview, but after this discussion I hesitated and thought a black or navy one would be more professional.
SF Bay Associate
I have two black J.Crew suits, and just got a navy wool gab suit from J.Crew which I snapped up during a promotion + additional % off. Though I’ve also got my eye out for a dark grey suit, I was surprised by how much nicer I looked in the navy versus the black. The navy color is much more flattering. Except then the dilemma – what shoes? what bag? what tops? I know we’ve covered this here before, but I’ve long been a black shoes and black purse only kind of girl because it’s easy. I also wear a lot of black for the same reason. It’s so easy to grab the black suit and any colored top. I’m unconvinced that I can wear black shoes with the navy suit, and am also kind of overwhelmed at the thought of wearing that much color (even though navy is a “neutral”)- and possibly no black- at once.
ACE, Another Sarah, MelD how do you wear your navy suits?
Also regarding suits, I’ve got a small bust, such that jackets that fit my shoulders are typically too big in the chest. Has anyone ever altered a suit to have it taken in the chest? How expensive was it? I imagine it would look a lot better, but if it’s a lot of money, I’m really inclined to just wear the too-big jacket because whatever. Or maybe I just need to switch suit brands?
spacegeek
I have a wonderful tailor/seamstress, but even she tells me taking in suit jackets in the body is not worth the cost, especially if it is a lined suit. Sorry!
Another Sarah
I have both navy and brown shoes that I wear with my navy suit. All I have are black bags, so I go without completely coordinating my accessories when I wear a navy suit. I’m also not a person who regularly coordinates accessories with outfits anyway, so there we go.
I always have my suit jackets taken in, lined or not. I have broad shoulders but a smaller waist, and so I look absolutely horrible not taking in my jackets. The tailor usually takes in the back darts or the sides, which makes the chest part sit closer to your body. It is expensive, but the way I see it, you only have to do it once. For me, because it makes such a huge difference in the look of the suit, I consider it an investment. I’ve usually had suits tailored all at once, so I don’t know how much just the jacket cost. But a lined jacket taken in at the back darts, sleeves taken in and up, skirt and pants darts taken in, pants and skirt hemmed, usually runs a little over $100. I’m sure the jacket is the vast majority of that. (I’m in between sizes)
Anon, a mouse!
I like navy with a coral/salmon or yellow blouse underneath. I usually wear brown or gray pumps. If you’re trying to look more conservative, a cream-colored or beige shell looks great with navy. Cordovan shoes are classic with navy but I think a chestnut brown looks great too.
Anonymous
You might just be able to take out the jacket’s buttons and move them further into the jacket- it would be really easy and if you didn’t want to do it yourself I’m guessing it would be super cheap. Just make sure you don’t take the buttons in too much, because you’ll still want the suit to be straight when it’s buttoned.
Anonymous
You can try to take out the jacket’s buttons and move them further into the jacket- it would be really easy and if you didn’t want to do it yourself I’m guessing it would be super cheap. Just make sure you don’t take the buttons in too much, because you’ll still want the suit to be straight when it’s buttoned.
UnSub
I’m, hopefully, about to go to a second interview for a great job (wish me luck) as a creative VP. For my first interview I wore a light grey suit that seemed appropriate since it was over 100 degrees that day and I thought black would look way too hot. Tell me, did I blow it?
For this next round I plan to wear a navy suit with a light blue silk shell. I think that will be fine no matter the temp.
anonymous
No, you didn’t blow it! I think many of the posters here are speaking from their particular context, which may not apply to everybody. Navy looks horrible on me, so I would pick gray over navy any day.
divaliscious11
You are going back for a second interview and you are worried about having blown it????
AN
This.
UnSub
Good point. Thanks.
DutchFan
I have a charcoal grey skirt suit from JCrew- fits wonderfully, and I love it. However, it is a very dark charcoal- almost verging on black, so if you really want it to look “grey”, I suggest going for the next lighter grey option.
Fresh
Nice Ralph Lauren dress, lucky sizes 12 – 14 – 16.
http://www.ralphlauren.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3869942&camp=affiliate_k70634
KZ
I just need to vent for a moment–feel free to ignore.
So about 4 days ago I finally gave up on getting a legal job and officially accepted my fallback job a previous employer had been holding open for me (job does not require a legal degree). In the past 4 days since I accepted this job, I’ve gotten three phone calls about interviews for actual law jobs, including one today for a clerkship (and I really, really want to clerk). The universe has an cosmically bad sense of timing, and it’s stressing me out 4 days before bar exam. Argh!
ok, /rant. Thank you, ladies.
On the bright side, other unemployed 3Ls, apparently there are still judges looking for clerks starting in September. (yes, this september).
anon23
I say take the interviews if you are not starting your new job immediately. You might get a job that doesn’t start for six months and that way you can give adequate notice. I agree that it is good not to burn bridges but I think it sounds like your new employer was very aware that you were looking for other work, that they weren’t your first choice, and wouldn’t be surprised if you jump ship quickly.
fresh jd
KZ, I fail to see the issue. The beauty of at-will employment is that as much as firms are screwing over new grads w/ offer revocations and deferrals, why can’t you withdraw from accepting the non-legal offer? Did you sign a K, or will this irreparably damage your reputation or burn bridges in your career? I would go ahead and schedule those interviews right after the bar is over. I am sure that regardless of inconvenience, the non-legal employer will understand if you withdraw because you got an offer for your “dream job”.
AN
Exactly. You haven’t signed a bond or anything. Should things go awry, employers sack people in a snap. Why shouldn’t you atleast take the interiews and see how it goes?
KZ
right. forgot to mention that. I’m starting my new job sometime between August 9th and August 16th. Or at least I’m supposed to. I may take the clerkship interview since judges tend to decide fast, but there’s no way the others would decide that soon.
And I don’t want to burn bridges. these people like me and will give good recs. I was going to leave after a year, but i think saying “hey guys, I’m not coming!” 4 days before I’m supposed to show up would annoy them.
KZ
plus it’s in a different city and I need to find a place to live. soon. if I was starting 3 months from now, I’d take the interviews, but I ran out of time:-(
CJ in CA
I think if a judge is still interviewing NOW you might be able to not negotiate here. The former employer clearly likes you, was willing to wait, and I’m guessing wants YOUR best interest.
1) Accept interviews
2) Call employer and say you accepted interviews, too good to turn down, who knows what will happen, etc.
3) If the judge offers, take the job, say you can’t start until DATE (with time to move and give 2 weeks to employer. And then tell your employer.
Honestly, with the averages, you probably won’t get an offer from the judge, and wouldn’t you rather know that, than spend the next year wondering if you could have been someplace “better”?
But, the whole process totally sucks and is all out of wack. It’s going to recalibrate eventually but for us know, it’s really really awful.
Another Sarah
Where are these judges? East/West/North/South? As much as I’m planning on rocking unemployment, I would like it to end eventually… :-D
KZ
Florida.
KZ
also, it’s a magistrate judge. if it was a district judge, i would have taken the interview, no hesitation. magistrate judge i hesitate.
North Shore
I don’t know how long you want to clerk, but I saw clerks do a magistrate clerkship then a district court clerkship back to back in the same courthouse. Once you get your foot in the door somewhere, it’s so much easier, especially if your judge recommends you to others in the courthouse. So the clerkship interview seems like a step in the right direction to me.
LawyrChk
Funny, not to freak you out but I think I know someone else interviewing for this same position (also a recent grad).
KZ
hah. probably, lawyrchk. I’ve gotten the feeling over the last year that all the unemployed 3ls I know (well, I guess we’re recent grads now) are all interviewing for the same few positions.
And NorthShore, good point. I was only going to take the interview if I thought I could get a response soon, but maybe I should just go ahead and take it and explain to my employer I may leave on short notice…
Anon, a mouse!
Take the interviews, especially the clerkship one. You don’t want to screw over the previous employer, but you’ve got to act in your own self-interest. If you get another job offer, the new job will probably be willing to work with you to delay your start date so you don’t completely screw your current job over.
mille
Go do all of the interviews. It is good practice, if nothing else, and if you get hired, you can decide at that point if you want to take the new job. No use not doing the interview and then wondering forever if you missed a wonderful opportunity.
Maya
With clerkship interviews, though, remember that you can’t just take all the interviews and decide if you get an offer whether you want to accept — the advice I’ve always heard is that if you accept a clerkship interview, you have to be willing to take the clerkship if it’s offered absent some crisis or something.
MelD
This is a different situation than someone applying to multiple clerkships during fall of 3L. There just aren’t a lot of options right now, and most judges will expect that recent grads will be pursuing all of them simultaneously.
Ms. Basil E. Frankweiler
Question for anyone who can answer. It’s OCI time at my school and my class rank is not great. I am planning on applying to any company that has my area of interest and has preferred after the rank request. Does anyone have any tips on what I should highlight to offset my grades and show how well-rounded I am? Thanks in advance.
J
do you have any previous work experience? I would focus on that. I do a lot of interviewing for my firm and I tend to look for that to differentiate btw candidates. I have interviewed candidates with great grades, but who i felt i could not let any where near my clients because they don’t seem professional or mature enough. So I would focus on either previous work experience or life experience that has taught you how to maturely handle myriad new situations. That is a big thing– everything in the practice will be new to you for a while, so show you can adapt and maturely handle anything that comes your way.
Good luck!
Anon, a mouse!
“I have interviewed candidates with great grades, but who i felt i could not let any where near my clients because they don’t seem professional or mature enough.”
This. Even if you’re young, project maturity and self-confidence. Also, have a concrete reason why you want to work for every firm you interview with. I’ll take an average student who genuinely wants to work for me over a law reviewer any day.
Another Sarah
You could try highlighting the experience you have, either through your previous work, summer jobs, clinics, internships, leadership positions where you actually DID something, etc. If you’re a rising 2L, then you should have a decent amount of stuff to apply to. If you’re a rising 3L…well…light a candle.
Full Disclosure: This is also my issue (lower rank, v. well-rounded), and so far my mitigation tactics haven’t worked as well as people tell me they should. However, it all depends on what you have to bring to the table. If you’ve had a previous career and come to law school later in life, and you’re planning on applying to places in your previous carreer field, you’ll probably have a different experience than mine.
yet another sarah (really)
Just wanted to add that I actually got a job out of 3L OCI-it can be done! Granted all the firms interviewing 3Ls were in smaller cities in my state, not the big fun city where everyone wants to live. That said, even with the move, I’m SO glad to have a job. Okay, back to bar review.
KelliJ
I was in the same position that you are in (all be it 12 years ago now).
First off, ask your career development office for help. The truth is not everyone is going to be in the top 10 or top 1/3 or whatever, and they should be able to help you overcome your shortcoming. They can certainly help you master answering the tough questions, like the ones about your grades and rank. You don’t want to sound like your apologizing or making excuses. They can look at your resume and pull out the key areas you should focus on. They can also help you highlight your strengths in the cover letter. (I worked in my law school’s career development office when I was a 3L and learned SO much.)
Try to point to classes where you did really well especially if they’re ones that pertain to the field you’re interested in pursuing. One of the things that pulled down my class rank was that I took a lot of difficult business law courses with the toughest professors at our school. I knew my rank would suffer but what I learned from these great professors was invaluable. I was proud of my grade when I took Antitrust Law with the man who wrote the state’s antitrust laws.
You’ve got to focus on what you bring to the table that the better ranked candidates don’t have. Some of the people I went to law school with thought their grades could make up for their lack of maturity and/or personality. As other have suggested, experience is a key differentiator (sp?). That certainly helped me. Don’t underestimate passion and commitment. Have a good answer when someone asks you “Why do you want to work for XYZ?” Can you point to any organizations that you’re a part of, especially professional ones? I always tell students to join professional organizations and go to the meetings and events. So many of them let students join for free or a low fee. Not only does it show commitment to a field, but also helps you build your network.
Remember that OCI isn’t the end all and be all of hiring. Good luck!
D
I’d love all opinions and advice on the following:
Babies.
I’m in my mid 20s, happily married, and ready to start making babies. Unfortunately, I just finished my first year of law school. And our financial situation is ok but not great. My husband makes a good income and I have scholarships to cover most of my tuition. But we have some credit card debt, very little savings, and have some “growing up” to do when it comes to our finances – we tend to overspend, but are working on it.
The options are as follows:
1. Make baby NOW, take off a year (basically all of 2010) to stay home with baby. Then pony up for childcare and finish up school a year later than currently scheduled. This has the pro of saving on childcare costs for that first year and keeping me much more sane as I would not have to deal with an infant and work/school at the same time, especially since I intend to breastfeed as long as I can. The main con is that we still have to pay off debt and save some money before we introduce another person into the household. Its scary to go into this in our current financial situation.
2. Wait until I have graduated and “established” my career for a year or two. The main pro is that we plan to be in a much better financial situation by then. The main cons are that we will have to start paying for childcare much earlier (I’d likely take no more than 3, at most 6, months of leave). Childcare, especially for under-2s is INSANE. And certainly not something you want to skimp on.
An additional consideration is that I would much rather have my first kid before 30, and option 2 is putting me in the 30 range already. We want 2-3 kids eventually but want to space them 4-6 years apart, so I won’t be eager to make a second one as soon as this one is born.
I’d love to hear any and all advice, experiences, comments… Thanks in advance, Corporettes!
JessC
Does your school have a part-time option? That may be the best of both worlds for you. You can still go to school (2 or 3 classes) and you won’t have to put off graduating a full year. While some child care would be needed, it wouldn’t be near the amount needed if you were working or going to school full time.
Talk to your affairs or registrar or whatever relevant office may be able to give you info on your options (if any). FWIW, I had a number of classmates who went this route and it seemed to work out best for them.
Good luck!
Amy
I’m sure some people would have a problem with this advice, but I say do it now. The biggest mistake I ever made was going back to work after my son was born. He was colicky and had special needs, I was in a high pressure job, I was also very committed to breastfeeding but had postpartum depression as well, and the whole thing ended up being kind of a disaster. I almost ended up divorced, fired, and hospitalized for depression and it was NOT worth it. But at the time, I had no choice – my husband was not making great money and I carried our health benefits. That first year is so much about both a. taking care of the baby and b. adjusting to your new life as a caretaker. It would have been so nice (and so much easier on our marriage) had I just focused on the baby instead of trying to go back to a stressful and high-pressured job.
Right now, you will probably have a better adjustment to parenthood than if you wait three or four years and then try to have a baby while you’re building your career and are concerned about things like face time, your ability to volunteer for projects, etc. I do think the suggestion about looking into going part-time, maybe not the semester your baby is born but the next one, is good just so you do jump back in as quickly as you can. I am sure you know that the percentage of women who go back to school after taking time off to have a family is pretty low. As far as the financial stuff – it’s always scary when you have a baby, no matter what your finances look like. My best friend, who makes six figures as a salesperson in the resort industry, had her first baby last year and was still floored at the cost. Being home actually will save you a LOT of money because you can breastfeed instead of use formula, use cloth diapers (I did even though I didn’t stay home, and the new ones are so great and easy), and make your own baby food, plus you won’t be paying for daycare. And you won’t need to outsource as many home duties (cleaning, laundry, food prep, etc.) because you’ll be at home and able to cook dinner and do laundry.
I know this probably sounds like a commercial for staying at home, which not everyone can do. But if you can do it, go for it. It will make that first year a lot easier for you, the baby and your husband in the long run. Good luck!
Anon, a mouse!
Do it now. There’s never a perfect time for anything, and if you wait now you’ll have more excuses later. Frankly, early in 3L year is an ideal time to have a baby. You don’t have much of a workload, and you have a year of being a student to spend lots of time with your kid before you start working. But if your school will let you return (with scholarship) after taking a year off, that sounds like a good plan too.
legalicious07
I’ve always heard that having a baby between 2L and 3L year works best. I don’t remember where I read that, but there was a long thread about it (either on this site or perhaps on other legal blogs) about this very issue. Anecdotally, I know a handful of couples who did this and it seemed to work out fine for them!
PJB
I have to differ with everyone here. Law school is hard. For me, it was not so much that it was intellectually difficult, but the quantity of material to be covered every night was virtually overwhelming. I had at least six to seven hours of reading and outlining every night, and never mind studying for exams. My (then) husband had just finished medical school, and he had way less work than I did in law school.
My baby was difficult. He was what they call colicky which I think is a euphemism for cries all the time, needs to be driven around in a car to settle down, can’t sleep, throws up, wants the mom not the dad to rock and hold him,etc. I love my son beyond measure, but I could not have finished law school if he had been born then. It later turned out he had ADHD and other learning disabilities and I believe it manifested even in his baby behavior. (On the other hand, my second-born was pretty easy, at least in comparison to her brother.)
However, I work as a federal litigator, and based on what I’ve read here, it appears the feds are just better to work for than biglaw or even small law, where the absence of one person matters more, when it comes to raising children.
Either way, good luck to you, and I hope your future baby is healthy.
AN
I cannot comment on your case but FWIW: babies (even the ‘easy’ ones, which my son was) are not easy on the mum, especially if you have no family/au pair help even if you are a SAHM. I took a year off to bond with my son and have no regrets, but I had been working for 10 yrs when I had him at 33 and we were financially great. Think about how you’ll juggle baby and school/getting back to class etc, your $ situation, etc. Age is just one variable.
meg
Remember that there will never be a perfect time to have a child, it will change your life in unimaginable (and wonderful) ways. Don’t over-think it, start trying when you are ready. Your relative youth has the added benefit that if it’s not easy to conceive you’ll have plenty of time to figure out other options.
Suze
Now. Like everyone says, there’s never a good time and given your hope of 2-3, spaced 3+ years apart and your age, you should get on with it for that reason. Also, school is hard, but 3L is the easiest of the hard school – and NOTHING is harder than going back to work 3 mos post delivery with newborn at home, at high stress/fast pace firm (where everyone will most assuredly notice early departure/late arrival/absence, and yes, they will say – even after we ‘gave her 3 paid months, now she’s abusing it/not productive’ and presto-bingo, you are now 2d class cit – ugly but true). Good luck!
L
Do it now. You may have trouble getting pregnant (I did at age 28, my friend did at age 30, etc…) and then wish you had started sooner. Plus you will have more energy for dealing with babies when you are younger. And school is more flexible than work (IMO – I had WAY more free time when I was a student) so you will have more time for baby. :)
A
I’d do it now or soonish (much easier than starting work and then trying to have a baby before you are established) – but keep this in mind, pregnancy does not always go the way that you want it to. I’m taking the bar next week and will be 32 weeks pregnant the day after the exam is over. I feel great and have really not had any problems since my first trimester, but that is certainly not universal among my friends. This pregnancy for me works out well time wise because of my employment situation and school, but as with all things there are no guarantees.
You kind of just have to jump in and hope for the best, but there is nothing saying that it will all go the way that you thought. My friend, for instance, took the bar 9 months pregnant basically (apparently people at the test site were taking bets on whether she would go into labor during the exam) she passed, but it wasn’t before she spent 2 weeks pre-bar exam on hospital bed rest. Incidentally, she had her baby like a week after the exam was over. If you decide to get pregnant while you are in school there is nothing to say that the pregnancy will go smoothly, but I have several friends (and myself) for whom it was not a problem. 3L is definitely an ideal time, and you get the added bonus of walking into a job with an idea of what your boundaries are in terms of balancing life and work.
Prosecutor1
I had my son, not planned, during the first sememster of my 3rd year and it worked out great. I had taken several summer classes between my 1st and 2nd year so I had a little bit of a head start. At the time, I had planned on graduating early and taking some time off to travel before working and taking the bar. When I found out I was pregnant my plans changed, so I took classes, did an independent study credit and worked during the summer between my second and third year. It was hard! But, I had my son in September and was able to take the first sememster of my 3rd year off, go back to school in January and still graduate with my class. Good luck.
Taylor
Have a baby!
dee
I have always thought that third year of law school was the perfect time to raise a kid. I worked 20 hrs a week that year and had no workload/time issue with that, so I imagine that one would be able to devote a substantial amount of time to raising a kid without it affecting schoolwork. I would suggest waiting until after your second year of law school, then taking a year off (if you think it’s necessary – that’s probably more of a personal choice), and then going back to school when the child is 1 years old for your third year. You’d only have to pay for child care for the time you are physically in class – your husband can watch the child at night while you’re studying. It may get dicey while you are studying for the bar, but by that time your child will be about 2 years old so s/he will be less needy and you can get childcare during the day (presumably less expensive because the child is older? I think I went into pre-school when I was 2, but my mom was probably eager to get me out the door. She worked as a teacher).
Keep in mind I have no children, so I am making this all up, but in my mind it sounds like a perfect plan.
As to the poster above who said she spent six-seven hours a night studying – GAH! That must be on the extreme high end of what people do in their third year of law school. I probably spent 10 hrs a week max reviewing stuff. I may be on the extreme low end, but 30-40 hrs a week of studying seems very excessive. Most people chill out their third year.
anonymous
My advice is not career-centered but life-centered–go for it now. If you decide to wait, you never know what will happen, how long it will take to get pregnant, what financial situation you will be in, etc. Waiting can impact your ability to have additional children. You will never regret having a child, but you *could* regret waiting. I have 2, I love them to bits, I wish I could have two more, but age, health and life circumstances will not really permit. If we had started sooner, the impacts of some of these thing may have been different and we may at least have been able to have 3. Of course, whole books have been written on this topic, just my 2 cents.
AnneCatherine
Now. My two cents. My mom had my sister during finals of her third year. I’m sure it wasn’t easy. But please don’t wait 5 years!!!!!! You never know what will happen. Sorry to be bleak-ish.
Amy
It’s not bleak, it’s just life. Things happen every day that leave people with huge regrets about what they didn’t do before it was “too late;” I try to live my life (within reason) so that I don’t end up with those regrets. I think with what we know now about fertility – which is that the longer you wait, the more your chances of having trouble go up – the smart move, for those who want kids, is to do it sooner rather than later. It sucks women have to think this way, but until someone comes up with a way to beat basic human biology, this is reality. And let me tell you from experience, fertility treatment is a whole lot of no fun. Women who want children should not think of their lives in terms of “well, if I wait, I can always just go to the fertility clinic.” Fertility treatment is physically painful, time-consuming, emotionally agonizing, expensive as hell, and has very low success rates that just get lower as you get older. It’s not a good solution.
RR
This. IVF is not a good time. And paying someone $12000 for a less than 50% shot at pregnancy is not fun. You never know if you will have problems. Do it now.
MelD
While there isn’t a right time to have kids, there’s certainly a wrong time. I have a close friend who had her first at 31 and wished she’d waited longer (she miscarried before the first, btw) because her husband’s job required so much travel in the first year of their child’s life. She said she came very close to having a nervous breakdown more than one time and spent much of the time while her husband was away crying hysterically because she could barely handle it.
If there isn’t a great support network now but there may be a few years down the road, I would wait. You do have to complete law school and do well, but if you have a higher maintenance child and no one who can give extra support, it’s going to be difficult to complete school.
KelliJ
I always thought that the women who had babies while in law school were nuts. Now that I’m a mom, I would never do it. Don’t try to plan too much. Life has a way of changing things up. You may not get pregnant right away. So planning that you’ll take this year or that year off may or may not work out. Also you may or may not have 2 or 3 kids so many years apart. Talk to the women in my mom’s group about that. Out of 11 of us, only 1 is on “schedule”. Three got pregnant with #2 unexpectedly. A few struggled to get pregnant with #2. More than one of us has revised our #s and schedule. Focus on #1 right now. Worry about #2 or #3 when the time comes.
You don’t know how you are going to react to motherhood. I had 4 months of morning sickness (in bed most of that time). I left my job thinking I would love being a stay-at-home mom. I didn’t. I have other friends who quit their jobs because they couldn’t be away from their babies. One of my best friends had a baby in law school and took a year off. She didn’t have the energy to put a lot of effort into her 3rd year. She struggled to pass the bar in CA. (She took it 5 times and just gave up.) She had a lot of help and support but her heart wasn’t into it.
Speaking of energy, don’t assume that once they’re toddlers it gets any easier. The challenges just change. My daughter slept through the night at 10 weeks, but wasn’t a good napper. My sister’s little girl is 4 months younger and still doesn’t sleep through the night at 2.5, but naps.
Don’t underestimate the financial burden that a child brings. If you overspend now, it’s easier to do with a baby. Cute clothes and baby things just suck you in! We were financially sound after working for 10 years, but I know I wasted money on ridiculous items.
This of course is just one experience among millions. To have a baby is such a personal decision. Good luck!
North Shore
I’d vote for now. That said, I had my first one 6 years out of law school, after a 2 yr clerkship plus 4 years establishing myself at my place of employment. That was enough time to prove my worth, and they bent over backwards to keep me. I went to part time, no travel, and took 6 months maternity leave for the first, and 8 months for the second. The key, I think, was being a valued employee in a highly specialized field. But I’ve known quite a few people who had babies in law school, and it seems to work out quite well. Being younger may be an asset when it comes to those sleep-deprived days.
Nearly naked
Great advice– thanks everyone!! I am going to check out theory and clissiques entier. Nordstroms ho!
Nearly naked
Corporettes– where do you shop for suits?
Ann Taylor used to fit me perfectly — till they overhauled everything. All my suits are nearly worn out and i need to restock! Banana seems cut to wide; J Crew jackets for some reason slice into my underarms, Tahari suits tend to be real high waisted and tight in the pooch area… I just don’t even know where else to look. I am shaped kind of odd, i guess- like a 2p (J Crew) or 4p (Banana) on bottom (with proportionally-speaking wide hips) and size zero on top — “boyish” figure on top is, i think, the euphamish. :)
Anyone shaped like me? please advise!
thanks ladies!
CJ in CA
I’m way not shaped like you, and I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “too wide” with the Banana suits, but that seems the best bet.
If the shoulders fit, everything else about a jacket is alterable by a tailor to be smaller. (With JCrew you’d have to go up a size and then have it altered, in the arm/waist so the shoulders wouldn’t fit anymore). Changing the rise of pants is also not really possible, I think. Though, it sounds like you could go up a size in Tahari pants and have them altered down.
I’d by one, and take it to a tailor with tags and see what they can do.
L
Try Theory. I have tried each of those suits as well: AT, Banana, JCrew (haven’t tried Tahari though) but had trouble with each (either the pants fit, but the jacket didn’t or vice versa). I tried Theory through other people’s recommendation and LOVED it. I have 2 suits from them now. I do think they are pricey (I’m super frugal) but I definitely think the suits are worth it. They fit great and you just feel super confident in them.
naijamodel
Try the Theory Outlet store. I was at one recently and I was floored at the selection and pricing. You can find pieces at Filenes Basement, but it’s so much easier to go the outlet route.
MelD
The AT outlet still carries basic suits for reasonable prices that are more in line with what you would find at the old AT. This weekend they are having a storewide sale of up to 70% off, so it’s worth checking out.
Legally Brunette
I think I sound like a broken record here, but try Classiques Entier suits at Nordstrom. I’m a 2 on top and 4 on bottom as well (although not a p) and the CE suits are extremely flattering on me.
As for the Theory rec, I only recommend Theory if you’re very straight up and down. I’m thin, but curvy, and Theory looks terrible on me.
Other K
Theory’s not that terrible sometimes. I’m similarly sized and 32C, and I find their jackets fit pretty well when I can find them discounted enough to suit my budget (not often). They’re pretty much the only jackets that fit me without alterations.
However, I have to agree with you about the pants. It’s pretty much the only designer where I go up two sizes from my regular just to find something that fits my hips in a flattering way. Taking in the waist would have cost a fortune. Something about their stretch fabric without lining just doesn’t suit curves.
Now if I could only find a button-down that I don’t have to size up. I’m looking forward to being able to afford alterations for more than suits.
Another Anon
Glad to hear I’m not the only one Theory just doesn’t work for!
E
I think my summary is Nordstroms is the place for suits: Classique Entier if you are more curvy, Theory if you’re more straight up and down. I have a CE suit that I’ve gotten millions of compliments on, and the other day I looked at the label and realized it was not 100% wool, but it looks nice, and I can practically guarantee that most of the people who comment on this blog and say 100% wool is the only way to go would not be able to tell that it was manmade from across a conference room table. That being said, I do not look good in Theory, so there it is. Go to Nordstroms, ask one of the nice ladies to help you out and try on a ton of suits. Something will make you feel good about your self. One note — it’s Anniversary Sale and very busy, so you may want to go on offpeak hours if you want that extra attention.
AH
Can anyone suggest a good brand of panty hose? I have fairly pale skin and it is always obvious that I’m wearing stockings, but I’m sure there must be good ones out there that will somehow disappear on my legs. Thanks.
Another Sarah
Hanes Silk Reflections. I’m pale enough to go “Travel Buff.” On me, it’s a quarter-shade pinker than I am in real life. But it definitely does not look like I have panty-hose on, since people comment on my snowy-white legs regardless if I have them on or not. :-D
mille
Travel Buff has been my go-to for years. They are not very expensive (I have an outlet near me) and they kind of work with my skin tone. Sadly, I’ve never found any that actually don’t look like I’m wearing panty hose.
It would be nice if Myskins (bras and panties) which has 20 colors designed so most people can find a match, made nylons.
Laura
I don’t have any outlets near me but I go online onehanesplace dot com for lower prices. They are apparently “seconds” but I’ve never found a flaw in anything even after 15+ years of ordering from them. Shipping takes forever but prices are great and save me a trip to Macy’s, where they are always out of my size/color/style.
Anon, a mouse!
Hue! I love their no waistband hose the most but everything I’ve ever tried from them has been great. Available on barenecessities.com or at department stores.
AH
Great, thank you all for the suggestions!
KM
Calvin Klein. I have a pair of black hose that I’ve worn since high school (I’m now in my mid 20s). Nordstrom rack recently had a bunch of the basic hose (with a control top, which is essential for me) for $3.97 a pair, I think. There were a variety of colors and I was able to find a “nude” version that matched my fair skin (but I don’t remember the name of the color).
dr
They Filodoro – from Italy. I get them from shapings.com here’s why… I am Italian by heritage. In the fall months in TX I have pale olive skin. In the summer months I tan without thinking about it and need signifcantly darker hosiery. The Filodoro are remarkably strong. I get the 15 denier weight and most people don’t know I’m wearing hosiery. No, I’m not a shill for them, just devoted to the selection from shapings.com. One winter I tried Eastern Block brands as they were offering even more pale tones. Give them a try. Most wear like iron and look great…I am on the floor as a person who works with kids most afternoons, and still they are long lasting.
Kaye
Donna Karan The Nudes. I wear color B2; if you’re very pale you might need A1, the lightest. It goes A1, B2, A3, B4, etc. I’ve gotten many compliments on them – after I pointed out I was wearing them :) The usual reaction is “wow, I never would have guessed you were wearing pantyhose!”
Maya
Thoughts on this dress — assuming it was used as a base under cardigans, jackets, scarves etc. and not worn without another item on top of the top 1/2?
http://www.ralphlauren.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4242980&cp=1760782.4332103&ab=ln_women_cs1_dresses&parentPage=family
Makeup Junkie
That dress is gorgeous on its own, it doesn’t need a cardigan!
Anon, a mouse!
I don’t think the clinginess and the swingy cut of the skirt are great for the office. That’s a very sexy dress. It looks beautiful, though. If you have a long, lithe body I bet you’d look amazing in it.
Amy
Depending on your shape and how snug the dress is on you, it would probably need something over it. I also think you could probably find something similar, equally servicable, for less money. Although I do love Ralph Lauren, especially that line.
AN
Gorgeous dress. I could never wear it as I’m way too curvy on top. But if you’re slim/small chested, I don’t see why you need a 2nd layer?
Maya
Thanks ladies. I think you’ve confirmed what I kind of thought after trying it in — it’s a great dress but I probably can’t/shouldn’t wear it without another layer because even the large is too snug on top, and it probably looks too going outish on me. . . .Darn. Thanks for the input!
L
Has anyone seen August’s Vogue? Thoughts on the Biglaw (skadden) associate on p 120 saying she wears Theory suits, Thakoon, Jason Wu, Lanvin dresses, and Jimmy Choo 100mm pumps to work? Is it really okay to wear those kinds of stilettos to work??? Does she have family money or just spend a LOT on clothes? I worked in biglaw in boston for a good while, and we would actually look down on someone for spending that much money on clothes (wasteful in our yankee thrifty minds).
Anon, a mouse!
Everyone has different priorities. Would you look down on someone who spent $70K on a car? If not, why look down on someone who spends $1K on a suit?
I think it’s not okay to wear attention-grabbing clothes to work when you’re new and unproven. You don’t want to be known as stiletto girl. If you’ve already proven yourself and you love you some high high heels, go for it.
MelD
I think it depends on the office culture. In many offices and cultures, you may be expected to wear designer clothing and accessories. I have one friend in biglaw in a smaller market and the culture varies widely between practice areas. Hers has government clients, so they all wear less expensive clothes, but the litigation attorneys tend to wear a lot of designer clothing/accessories.
You don’t necessarily need to be rich to buy designer items. If you don’t spend a lot on big nights out, transportation, or vacations, you’ll have that money to spend elsewhere. Some people are going to scrape by no matter how much money they make, while others are able to do amazing things with less.
KZ
Eh, if you have the money and don’t need it for anything else, why not spend it on clothes? If you don’t have expenses like kids and car payments and you don’t eat out much (because you work in biglaw and therefore don’t have a whole lot of time for fun things), might as well.
Also, I wouldn’t look down on someone for spending that much money on clothes because I would have no idea–Identifying clothing brands by appearance, unless it’s something obvious, is not something I can do.
dee
It’s completely fine. It’s biglaw; people make a lot of money and they like to spend it. If you’re working at Skadden you don’t need to be independently wealthy to dress like that. When you’re pulling down $200k and you’re 29 and childless, you can spend $20k a year on clothes and still be saving a substantial sum.
divaliscious11
Sounds like she has a balance of great pieces. You would look down on her for buying exceptional quality clothing once, versus cheaper items multiple times? Did they ask if she was buying full price? I have pieces by the above, but didn’t pay full price, and some were significantly marked down. and yep, I wear Jimmy Choo to the office.
I guess our yankee thrifty is a bit different……(from mass originally) but my dad always said its better to buy quality once, than cheap over and over again… If a thousand dollar suit makes her feel and look like a million bucks and she wears it for closing argument, of for big deal meetings, than that $1K is a drop in the bucket!
houda
I think sometimes it is a necessity, definitely a cultural thing. I work and now live in a city where you have to be seen in certain places and wearing/owning at least few items of certain brands to be accepted into some social circles. If you want to land some important accounts, you need to earn the person’s trust and the best way is to mingle.
I do not mean to be hypocrite. I went to a tiny very exclusive college (equivalent of top ivy league in the US), it is obviously the most expensive in the country, while I enjoyed the full ride with merit scholarship, I still had to shell big bucks just to fit in. I got a job at a similar-minded work environment and I do have to fit in. I go within the limits of my budgets but I cannot deny that fitting in opens great opportunities that I wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.
P.S. I work very hard and it never hurts to reward oneself once in a while
SIL
quick story. i am an intern at a federal district court and i watched an oral argument this week for a pretty important case. the woman attorney was wearing the most ridiculous outfit. black strappy PLATFORM 5 inch heels (aka stripper shoes), tight tight flared grey pants with terrible panty lines, and a light grey blazer (so yeah not even a suit). she was a very attractive woman as well! the problem is, i judged her right away as unprofessional, but when she started speaking on behalf of her client, she was brilliant! i wish i could have just slipped her a piece of paper with “corporette.com” on it or something! ughhhhh
ps- sorry if this posted twice! :)
D
wow that sounds terrible… how many doors will be closed to her because she does not know how to dress appropriately??
divaliscious11
Platform does NOT equal STRIPPER….
clear lucite 6 in” platforms – maybe, but I wear platforms all the time because they make wearing heels more comfortable because the take some of the weight/pressure off the ball of the foot.
divaliscious11
An additional question – why should she care what you, the intern, think? Particularly is she was a “brilliant” advocate for her client? Probably a good thing you didn’t slip her a piece of paper, because I suspect you’d have gotten a piece of her brilliance aimed squarely at you…..
Your sentence “I judged her right away as unprofessional” tends to say more about you than her….
anac
Do you even go here? The entire concept of this website is about accepting the reality that people judge you at work based on your wardrobe and adjusting your clothing and accessory choices accordingly.
divaliscious11
That may your perception of the entire concept but given the discussion OFTEN had on this website that perhaps if women would stop being so judgmental, then perhaps women would feel so constricted in their fashion choices. The OP said she judged someone on-site as unprofessional before she opened her mouth. Sorry, but I think that is far worse than the outfit described. And yes, we’ve heard time and again, well that’s just the way it is, but I think that is a cop out to be snarky and rationalize your (generic you) conforming to a standard that is at times, unnecessarily rigid.
So its not just clothing that needs adjusting, its also attitudes….
Anon, a mouse!
I’m sorry, but visible panty lines and mismatched pants and jacket ARE unprofessional. A brilliant attorney who doesn’t have the good judgment to make sure her underwear’s not showing undermines her client’s case.
Cat
If SIL had gone on to dismiss the women entirely regardless of her advocacy skills because of what sounds like, frankly, an inappropriate look, I would agree with you, diva. But SIL acknowledged that she was a good attorney. Why not avoid the first impression of unprofessionalism to begin with?
Also, I don’t think from the description that we were talking about a modest, less than half an inch, “Cole Haan does platforms” style shoe. Strappy + platform is hard to defend as a court look regardless of comfort IMO.
divaliscious11
How about waiting for her to do her job, and then judging? We have multiple isms that all are some function of a judgment based on what someone can see, and we generally look down on those who practice those biases. There is a huge leap from not necessarily court appropriate to stripper, and a platform certainly isn’t definitive.
Women are worse on other women than most men could dream of being, for the most ridiculous of reasons.
I’d wear these perhaps not court appropriate strappy platforms to work and would DARE someone suggest I dressed like a stripper….
http://www.bluefly.com/Pedro-Garcia-black-satin-%27Duna%27-strappy-sandals/cat20460/301218401/detail.fly?referer=ca_shopping&cm_mmc=ca_shopping-_-na-_-womens_shoes-_-301218401&PROMO=promo850024&mr:referralID=aab62557-97b0-11df-a1bc-0026b95a1738
PJB
Okay, tasty Diva, I would not accuse you of looking like a stripper if you wore these shoes to work. I wouldn’t accuse you of anything.
But, if you are an attorney who does anything other than doc review, i.e, if you have clients, or are not a partner, I would think: poor judgment. I’d also think you are awfully young if you believe looking stylish or sexy is more important than looking professional. Those female lawyers on TV? We don’t actually dress like them.
It’s a hard old world out there.
Jess
I wouldn’t hire any professional (lawyer, CPA, investment banker) to represent me or my organization if her personal fashion sense appeared to be out of sync with professional norms (wearing evening shoes as day wear, clothing too tight/short, etc). Same goes for a male professional with an affinity for overstated jewelry, unpressed clothing or ties with pictures on them. There are simply too many qualified professionals in the marketplace to bother.
divaliscious11
It is a hard old world, but I think we make it harder than it has to be.
And I am an attorney, only did doc review to assist the lit folks and pick up hours as a first year, and my clients are the senior executives of the $20 billion dollar a year company where I work, and I hire and fire both in-house and outside counsel, so yes, a judgement assessment is key, but I know better than to make a snap judgement on someone based upon their looks or clothing.
Again, it is a hard world, but people like the OP make it much harder for the most insignificant of reasons. NOW it is quite possible that the counsel she described actually looked inappropriate, but what she described doesn’t seem to cross the boundaries of being called unprofessional. Grey trousers and a jacket, and platform sandals, maybe not the BEST choice, but hardly the worst, and hardly appropriate for an intern to slip her a note to tell her she needed to come here and learn to bottle up her personality….
And a jacket, trouser and high heeled sandals are not so outside the norm to be alarming. Hot pants and heels, a micro mini etc… fire away with the judgement assessment.
I guess it just alarms me to no end to hear other women, ready to write off or dismiss another woman on sight, particularly one more experienced, and experienced enough to be arguing a case, versus sitting in the 3rd chair, because she didn’t like what she had on….
delurking
Women are not worse than men. I HATE this stereotype. Men know what they think is unprofessional and just because women are not privy to those conversations does not mean men cannot hurt your career over it.
LOL – you could argue that the ‘woman are more judgmental and small minded than men’ trope trotted out by many women is an example of women being more judgmental than men!
delurking
Also, overly harsh criticism to other women could also be seen to be an example of ‘women being more judgmental to other women’. Apologies if this seems rude or short but your comment actually was much harsher and more personal than SIL’s.
I’m not sure that it displayed the comraderie or respect that you were supposedly advocating.
divaliscious11
Well I think the reference to a STRIPPER, based on an outfit in caps, and the suggestion it would have been remotely appropriate for a court intern to slip the practicing attorney a note to come to corporette is far harsher than saying you are wrong for judging her by what she wore or what she looked like.
My comments were directed at the substance of her comments, not what she had on. I am in no way suggesting that people are not judgmental, no one functions that way. But each of us are free to choose the basis upon which you make judgments about people. You can choose to dismiss someone one based upon what you see, or you can wait to see what they have to offer, ie… the substance of the person.
I have no idea what the OP wears etc…and wouldn’t judge her on it alone, at any rate, but I do know that she is dismissive of other people based upon clothing. She has told us so in her post. She thought the woman was brilliant when she argued, but not enough, apparently, to overcome the urge to come say she thought her clothes were so bad. She didn’t, after all, post that she saw this brilliant counsel whose clothes she initially thought were unprofessional but she realized it didn’t matter because she was great at her job.
You make the assumption that women are not privy to mens thoughts, that is not always the case, but I doubt very seriously that a man will ding someone for a visible panty line, (oh, the horrors!) mere evidence of wearing undergarments, which we assume most people actually wear, for which Miss Mouse just declared a symbol of lack of professionalism…..
And SO WHAT if men ARE actually as bad as women in this regard? It’s still wrong, and shallow, and ridiculous. The only way it will change is if we safe, so long as a woman in appropriately covered or not ridiculous, I am not going to knock her because her fashion/style is not exactly the same as mine. For too many, this knocking down is just an artificial propping up of themselves…..
divaliscious11
That should be say, not safe…
“Mean Girls” … gone professional
We can do better……
delurking
Divalicious
I really believe that it is women who like to think that ‘other women are the problem’ who are the problem.
I think your assumption that men will not notice things like VPLs or inappropriate cleavage is wishful thinking but we can agree to disagree. The original comment was very much tongue in cheek and seemed in sympathy with the prosecutor she was discussing. Your comment seemed nasty, hyper critical and sanctimonious (honestly). It was also sexist and derogatory towards women as a group.
And just because you don’t care what shoes someone wears doesn’t make you better or wiser than other women who have learnt that there are appropriate professional norms which in one’s career it is wise to follow.
Now I’m only an 0L. But if I had the choice between a female mentor who was lovely, warm and respectful but felt that clothes should be conservative and one who didn’t mind what I wore but was critical, aggressive and judgmental (as well as thinking poorly of other women as a group) I know which one I would take…
K
I could use some non-work fashion advice from the Corporettes!
I recently bought this dress to wear to a friend’s afternoon wedding – http://cgi.ebay.com/NWT-159-Talbots-Blue-Orange-Paisley-Cotton-Dress-24W-/370411596059 (got it for $16 at the Talbots clearance outlet – I love that place!). Unfortunately, I have absolutely no idea what shoes to wear with it, or whether it needs some kind of cardigan or shawl or something. What would you suggest?
Other K
I have a dress with similar colors to this (navy and cream, large floral print, red/orange sash). The shoes I finally matched with it were black patent, T-strap, high-heeled. Similar to these, but in black, which I think are pretty cute but a little expensive:
http://www1.bloomingdales.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=462132&cm_mmc=Froogle-_-Womens-_-SHOE-_-Calvin_Klein_Collection_Bea_Patent_TStrap_High_Heel_Sandals&utm_source=GoogleProduct&utm_medium=organic
Several people suggested nude-colored or ivory heels but I’m so pale that it looked ridiculous. If you have more of a tan you may pull them off better.
I now wear them with these shoes, which I adore, but probably wouldn’t work for you (mine is strapless and the sash almost matches the heels).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110295888410&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=M*F%3F&GUID=d629f4221290a06c1d964116ff38b316&itemid=110295888410&ff4=263602_263622
I’d recommend black/nude/ivory patent sandals with a minimalist line, unless you want to go funky like I did with the second pair.
As for the wedding itself, I think you’re fine without a shoulder covering unless the wedding is going to be heavily air-conditioned or super-conservative Catholic. I bought a plain cream chiffon-type wrap just to wear in church for my dress. I hated it, but I needed my shoulders covered or my aunts would have killed me.
Mary
Cute! I would def. bring something to cover it for the a/c chills, but it’s so pretty it seems a shame to cover it with a cardigan – maybe a shawl/pashmina in orange, blue, or cream? You can stash it unobtrusively during the ceremony and then pull it out later if you start to get cold.
Suze
Niiice dress, nicer price!
Kat featured these shoes a while back, may be a little too bright, but check them out: http://www.shoes.com/Shopping/productdetails.aspx?catalog_name=web&pg=5054706&p=EC1071955&partnerid=performics2.
Or, maybe a slingback peeptoe (black patent with a little platform)? Macy’s website is running a pretty good sale right now and I saw a bunch of variations on that theme in a reasonable price range.
I don’t think you need a cardi or a shawl, although you might bring a shawl or shrug for chill protection.
BigN
I love this dress!! Can you run to the outlet and grab me one???
I would bring an orange pashmina with me and pair it with a neutral wedge. It is cotton, so you can have a little bit more of a casual shoe and I think a wedge is fine for a summer wedding.
Ms B
Black patent peep-toe slingbacks or sandals go with pretty much anything. Mine have served me well for years with everything from evening tuxedos to knit halter dresses to dark wash boot-cut jeans. Other options would be the nude patent shoes that are so popular right now, a simple gold sandal, or Lilly Pulitzer sandals in either a color that goes with the pattern (I actually think that blue sandals would go with a lot of things) or in cream with trim that matches the dress.
If you feel you will need a wrap, I would go for a color that either matches the blue or orange or for a light neutral or metallic. Maybe a cream or ecru linen?
I also would suggest wearing great earrings and maybe a simple bangle bracelet, but skip any necklaces because of the print.
K
Thanks so much for all the advice! I actually do have a pair of black peeptoe slingbacks I adore, and they’re usually my go-to shoes for events like this, but I was worried that the black would look too stark with the colors of the dress. (I’m with Other K on the too-pale-for-nude-heels bench.)
Formality-wise, the wedding is not being held in a church so I don’t strictly need a wrap – I was just wondering if I ought to have one, but it sounds like I can go without. Thanks!
fresh jd
I love this dress, and I wish they still had it online, what a great find! I personally would not wear black shoes with this dess. For one thing, it’s summer and you said it’s not in a formal/conservative venue. I would be bold and dress it up with blue or orange sandals. The Mickael Kors ones above are a great suggestion.
Enjoy the dress, I’m jealous!
HH
I have this dress as well… bought my online back in Feb for only $16. I recently wore it to a wedding… albeit summer… with some off white flats and an off white cardigan. I got several compliments. FYI – the built-in slip is cotton so it road up a bit as I walked around. It’s very comfortable though.
Another Anon
Any advice on walking in heels without making a clomping sound?
Please save me from my noisy self!
Cat
When does the “clomp” occur? Some shoes are just noisier because of the material the sole is made of, and may be fixable if you have a cobbler put a thin layer of rubber on the sole.
Otherwise, it sounds like you may be walking too stiffly and putting almost your whole foot down at once, so you get the noise of both the heel and toe almost simultaneously rather than two consecutive, quieter, clicks. This video is great for illustrating common problems (notice how the shoes sound louder in the second “don’t” demonstration): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usrs6cm2vQg
JessC
Actually, I thought this video was pretty good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdoMitt3DZs&feature=fvw
Some noise is to be expected when walking. But it should be more of a “clicking” than a “clomping”. If you’re “clomping” it sounds like you’re not walking properly. You should be stepping heel-to-toe, rather than toe-to-heel or putting your whole foot down at the same time. Remember – just walk normally.
If you absolutely can’t walk heel-to-toe in your heels, your heels probably don’t fit, are very poorly balanced, or are just too high.
Hope that helps!
mille
http://www.modelinia.com/videos/how-to-walk-in-high-heels/181
houda
Check what the heel is made of. I have sofft pumps with 2″ heels and they never make a sound because the sole and heel are coated in rubber.
pbnj
I work in a cubicle environment, and there are a couple of ladies that do the stomping thing. It drives me crazy! I think they don’t do the heel-to-toe movement, it just sounds like they’re just landing flat-footed on each foot.
Suze
Does anyone else have as much trouble as I do just finding bras? I am (I think) fairly ‘typical’ – 36/38 B or C (depends on who’s measuring, how, mfr. etc). For the last few years, Vic Secret IPEX (plain padded basic) has been okay but now the 36 is too small, 38 too big, you get the idea. So I went off to freshpair, where a few friends have hit the jackpot, and ordered six different styles/mfrs, box arrived today and I was all optimistic/excited…not one – not one! – fits right. Snarl. Any suggestions? TIA :)
Other K
My solution was to frequent a non-VS, non-department store with an enthusiastic staff. Like a good shoe saleswoman, a good bra store should be able to say “Brand X runs small, Brand Y runs large” and steer you to the right size in each brand.
A lot of these stores also offer complementary bra alterations, which is great if you are really in the middle between two sizes but want that particular brand.
If you aren’t near a major city, maybe you could stop by one and stock up once a year? I have several good NYC recommendations if you are nearby or travel there on business. Once you know the right brands, you could easily reorder online…
Kaye
Hi Other K, can you post your NYC recommendations? I’d love to get a new bra or two.
E
I sound like a broken record, but I have had very good luck with the bra ladies at Nordstroms. When I got pregnant, I suddenly needed a couple of new bras, and then needed a new strapless bra for my wedding dress, since I was four months pregnant then (ummm…yeah, still a little embarrassing, but it worked). Anyways, I went to Nordstroms, threw myself at the mercy of one of the women. We tried on many bras, but she was very experienced with measuring and had a good appreciation of the brands, and managed to do the whole thing very efficiently. Also, she calls me when there’s a good bra sale. The bras were not cheap at all, but so so so worth it, and made my clothes fit so much better.
M in CA
I second the Nordstrom suggestion. I just replaced all my old VS bras with some new bras from Nordie’s that fit really, really well, and I am very happy. Now I just need to get into the habit of actually *caring* for them! (Handwashing, gentle detergent, etc.)
AnneCatherine
Yes, I do. I dont’ really have a solution. I just buy lots and hope some fit.
AN
Bravissimo.
fellow bra struggler
I have been sized at nordstram’s twice and bloomingdales and they all came to the same conclusion (36C). But almost all the bras I tried were very noticeable under shirts because the cups seemed to flare out on the edges. The lady at nordstram’s (most recent visit) was less than helpful. Any suggestions? Trying to size up didn’t seem to particularly solve the problem.
Anon
Try tightening the straps about a half-inch to an inch. That always does the trick for me (the straps on my bras will gradually un-tighten themselves and I always know it is time to tighten them up again when I can see my cup edge through my tshirt.)
Anon, a mouse!
Where does it flare out – at the top or at the sides? If at the sides, go down a cup size and up a band size. If at the top, try a demi or balconette style rather than a full-coverage style in your current size.
AE
I recommend you find a good place to get sized. Nordstrom is good for this. In the DC area Sylene’s is excellent. Boutique stores that fit women for undergarments for their wedding dresses are often the best places to get fitted, so you might want to call the wedding dress shops where you live and ask where they send brides for their lingerie. Women change sizes a lot- more than they often think they do. In the last five years I’ve been a 34D, 34DD, 34DDD, 32DDD, 36DD, and finally a 36F. Good luck.
Anon
Whoa. Six cup sizes in 5 years? Was there significant weight loss or gain involved, or pregnancy? I’ve worn the same bra size since I was 14 (yes, I’ve been measured) – then again, my clothing size is also the same so that could be why. I’m just wondering if all the people measuring my bra size over the years have been missing something or do other stay the same size as well?
AE
Yes. During my last year of lawschool (2004-2005) I went on Atkins and went from 174 to 142 lbs. The next two years while I was a judicial lawclerk I went off Atkins but kept healthy eating habits and became an avid runner. I went down to 128 and a size 2 waistband. I’m 5’5″. Then in 2007 I moved, started practicing as a trial lawyer, quit exercising, and started hitting the vending machines when working late. Over the last three years went back up to 170. I recently started working out again and eating healthy and am now down to 163. I hope to get back to where I was, or close to it. (BTW- Kudos to all my fellow corporettes fighting the battle of the bulge.)
Anyhow, if you still weigh the same that you weighed when you were 14, and new bras in your old size fit properly (not just old ones that may have been stretched out from use), then I don’t think you should have reason to suspect that you are missing something.
PJB
Spanx bras. Not sexy, but fit like a dream. They have them at Nordstrom.
Suze
Thanks everyone for the suggestions! PJB, are the spanx bras relatively comfortable (maybe rate on a ‘comfort index’ , with 1 being I have to rip it off in the car the minute I leave the office to 10 being I can keep wearing it after I get home from work without thinking about it)?
AnneCatherine
Good luck to everyone taking the bar exam(s) next week!
Jen
I have a tailoring question. I just received a new suit that I ordered online that I really like and it fits perfect everywhere except the armholes. It seems like the armhole comes down too low, which causes the entire jacket to rise up when I lift my arm and I have to pull it back down when I lower my arm. I really think the problem is the armhole and my roommate had the same reaction when I tried it on for her and asked what she thought was wrong with it.
All that lead up for my question. Should I (a) try to order it in a larger size even though it fits everywhere else and then have the rest of the jacket taken in or (b) try to have the armhole tailored (if that is even possible)?
Any advice, or personal experience with this type of problem would be greatly appreciated!
MelD
I don’t think there’s anything you can do. You won’t have any fabric on the one you have to take in the armhole, and taking in a jacket in order to shrink the armhole would be cost prohibitive. I think the tailor would have to rip apart the entire jacket (assuming it’s lined) in order to get it to fit you right, and for that you might as well spend a little extra to get a jacket that fits you right in the first place.
Jen
Thanks for the advice. It has been a nightmare trying to find a normal black skirt suit for interviews. I’m plus size and there seems to be nothing out there. I’ll keep looking.
CJ in CA
Jen, I was in Nordstrom Encore last week and they had 2 acceptable black suits One with an A-line skirt.
I bought a grey one last week that I think could be interview appropriate too (though see the discussion of navy, black, and grey above). This is the one I got: http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3092390/0~2376776~2378685~2378693~6001711?mediumthumbnail=Y&origin=category&searchtype=&pbo=6001711&P=1
And the Louben one would also work for an interview I think.
If cost is no object, Talbots Woman in the “seasonless” wool has been recommended to me. I haven’t been able to pony up the $500 for the three pieces myself, but desperation . . .
Depending on the fit in the shoulders they can make the armhole smaller (in the size up) while taking in the side seams. It’s not that hard to make smaller, but making it bigger is not going to happen.
This is also why I buy a suit whenever I find one on sale that fits me, no matter the bank balance. They only seem to come around once a year or so. Really, I’m sure there are plenty of professional women in plus sizes. The more you work, the less you work out, right? You might try e-mailing someone at Manolo for the Big Girl blog. I did 2 years ago and they revealed several good suits for me!
Also, JCPenny as a last resort: http://www2.jcpenney.com/jcp/X6.aspx?GrpTyp=SIZ&ItemID=190b676&DeptID=70656&CatID=71648&SO=0&Ne=5+29+3+1031+8+18+904+949+833&shopperType=X&N=4294953661&Nao=0&PSO=0&cmAMS_T=XGN3&cmAMS_C=MERCHA&cmAMS_Z=XGN3TOPOFRESULTS&CmCatId=71648
I have it, and it doesn’t look expensive. But, it does fit, is in the budget, and checks off the boxes for minimum interview qualities.
Good Luck!
RR
They key to Talbots is to hit them for suits right when they go on sale and you can still match pieces. You can get down to more like $200-$250 for three pieces.
mille
I am plus sized and find that Lands End suit fit me well. They aren’t high-end but don’t look cheap either. I have some success at Nordstrom as well. I also have luck with Jones New York.
Austin Reed was my preferred high-end suit choice, but they aren’t in business anymore, so I dont’ have suggestions for that right now. When I lived in Chicago I shopped at Von Maur, which carried Austin Reed, so they may have some good replacement suits. I haven’t tried their online store.
Jen
Thanks Mille. I didn’t know Lands End made plus size suits. I’ll check that out! I live in NYC, so there isn’t a Nordstrom. I might try to order online.
I was really excited about a suit I found at Talbots online that was black in the seasonless wool that had both pants and a skirt, but when I was about to purchase it, I realized there were ruffles on the back of the skirt. I’m all for their attempts to be more trendy, but I would still appreciate a plain black skirt suit without the frills. All the other suit collections either didn’t come in black or the jackets had 3/4 sleeves.
Anon, a mouse!
Did you try Talbots?
Maya
I’m moving into academia in a tenure-track job teaching graduate students. I look young, so my plan is to wear mostly dresses and jackets or pants and jackets rather than suits, which I think might make me look overdressed. (Most men in the dept seem to wear pants and jackets. Naturally, no other women to emulate.) Any thoughts? I know that I need to make sure things are ok while teaching (no huge arm holes or jackets I can’t move in, etc.), but any other tips?
Little Lurker
http://www.academichic.com/
These ladies are amazing. The three of them have completely different styles, but they all analyze their wardrobes excellently.
It’s not a fashion blog but a style blog — they don’t recommend pieces, but they do teach you how to mix up your wardrobe and love items/sillouettes that you though you could never pll off.
Kaye
Sounds good to me. From what I remember, most of my professors did not have much of a sense of style, so you probably don’t need to worry too much :) (Then again, maybe that was just the engineering department.)
I definitely wouldn’t recommend wearing a suit as a professor – I don’t think I ever saw any of my professors in a suit.
Becca
I’ve recently started on long-term medication which is likely to make my hair fall out – perhaps not all of it, but my hair will probably end up looking patchy and horrible.
I’m trying to think of work-appropriate head coverings. For informal settings I’m just planning to cut my hair very short and wear a bandanna or hat, but that doesn’t really fit with an office suit.
NB I’m a recent graduate, so the budget isn’t huge. I hate, hate, hate wigs, can’t really afford a good realistic wig anyway, and I’m hoping to have enough hair left that I could probably get away with just a scarf or hat to hide the bald patches.
Also, for anyone who’s been through this, any suggestions on how to deal with comments on your changing appearance? I’ve currently got thick, waist-length, blonde hair (worn in a smart bun to work), so it’s going to be very noticeable when it goes, but I’d rather not go into medical details with work and acquaintances.
Gigi
I don’t have great advice, but I would say that you should re-post this during the week at the top of an article so that more people are likely to see it and weigh in. It’s interesting and important, but it’s so far back that it might get overlooked.
When I was in high school, I underwent brain surgery. The doctors shaved a third of my head, and I had a big, obvious scar. When I went back to school, I kept the rest of my hair long and just wore a bandanna for a while, and then started combing over my 2/3 hair and having kind of a low ponytail. This probably won’t work for you (although maybe it will if you’re only losing hair in patches) since my school was smallish and informal and everyone knew me, and, at bottom, I didn’t need to look professional. And finally my hair grew back and I could stop doing the comb-over.
I also think my experience re: others’ comments isn’t going to be too helpful because, again, I was in a fairly welcoming and definitely nonprofessional environment, and also I wasn’t embarrassed. I thought the surgery and scar were kind of interesting, and I didn’t mind talking about them with people.
Then again, even if that’s not how you feel about your medicine, you may nevertheless want to pretend it is. If you act confident about your situation, and make clear that it’s a simply a present scientific/medical state that you are comfortable with (not an STD on your head, basically), people may take it better and move on, than if you are really sensitive and/or secretive about it.
I also think scarves would be totally okay (and probably better-looking than hats, although I’m not a hat person so I am prejudiced on this point).
I’m sorry you have to go through this, and I hope that the people in your life are considerate. If they’re not, in my experience, it might be better for you to be graceful than defensive when they make rude/intrusive comments, because then they’ll feel bad instead of maligned. And if you have some people you’re close with, you might ask them to spread the word so that people in the office are semi-aware and less curious (or at least know not to voice their curiosity to you) (this is assuming you don’t mind people knowing but don’t want to have to discuss it every day).
Again, this is how I handled things, but may not work for everyone.
You will be fine; anyone who’s worth your attention will be able to see not just this one aspect of your appearance, but your entire presence.
Becca
Many thanks for sharing your experience.
I’m particularly concerned about explanations since I work in a medical-related area, and see maybe 100 new patients and relatives a month, as well as working across several wards and outpatient groups. Disclosing to my immediate team is inevitable, but I’m still going to have to deal with a lot of people who don’t know me, and with whom it wouldn’t be appropriate to go into the backstory.
I’m also hoping to have a number of job interviews next year, for my first independently responsible position since college.
Unfortunately I do have a frightening-sounding & rather complex diagnosis, which in some people could affect their ability to do the job, and might affect me badly in the future. Explaining that I am now still able to function as a competent, responsible professional, and that the drugs which change my appearance are also making me almost fully well in a way I haven’t been for years, could be difficult to get across in a water-cooler conversation.
I think you’re right, scarves are less obtrusive, and trying to maintain an overall smart and professional presence.
Gigi
In that case, you may want to come up with some storyline that glosses over the underlying condition. For more distant coworkers, you could say something like, “I was having [name the body part or system but don’t name the specific diagnosis] problems. Thankfully, my doctor has put me on medication that got everything under control, but one of the side effects is temporary hair loss. On one hand, it’s annoying, but on the other, I’m fully functional so I really shouldn’t complain.”
That kind of phrasing, if it works for you, gives enough information that people don’t feel you’re hiding something, but hopefully discourages them from asking follow-up questions (and if they do, you could say, “I’d prefer not to go into the specifics”). And it downplays the underlying condition, so they’re likely to think that the hair loss is the only problem you face. (And hopefully it will be.)
You may want to come up with something even less personal for patients and families; if they ask, or if it’s obvious that they’re distracted and curious, perhaps, “This is the side effect of a medicine I’m on, but it’s temporary and really not a big deal.” Brief, fairly direct, and not leaving room for conversation. Depending on what kinds of patients you’re working with, how often you see the same people, etc.
Of course, this may be easier said than done. But in any case, you may want to prepare for some uncomfortable scenarios so that you’re not totally thrown and unable to respond when someone makes an inappropriate/unexpected comment.
One thing that may be to your benefit: I suspect that medical professionals are less likely to jump to conclusions about people’s capabilities based on their physical appearance or medical condition. This is because they see so many patients (at least outpatients) who are basically functional and professional despite having medical problems. So they might be less prejudiced against someone whose side effects are noticeable, relative to people who work in other industries. Therefore, especially if you project that you aren’t substantively affected by your condition and treatment, the people thinking about hiring/promoting you may be less distracted and influenced by seeing a scarf, or a bit of exposed scalp, or whatever you choose to share.
Becca
Thanks. I guess I’m just going to have to develop a set of stock responses, and I like your suggestions.
Hopefully in a few months when I’m actually dealing with this it won’t be such a big deal as worrying ahead of time.
mille
Would cutting your hair shorter now help? A hair style that is loose over your head– i.e., not in a bun– might help the bald spots be less noticeable. It could also be less of a shock for people if you go from long to short now, before you have to. It’s summer, it’s hot and that gives you a good excuse. I haven’t been in this situation, but that is what springs to mind.
Becca
Yes, it’s also somewhat awkward to be shedding waist-length hair. A short crop is coming as soon as I can face it!
E
If you look online, there are a number of website that cater to orthodox women who cover their heads in public:
http://www.modestclothes.com/jewish/hats-snoods-berets-tiechel-sheitel.html
On quick googling, this is one that looks like a clearing house of many websites that you can order things through. Some of these may be appropriate for your situation.
I’m sorry for your troubles; I don’t have a lot of advice about how to handle your changing appearance. I tend to believe the best in people, and though I don’t think you need to go into excruciating details, letting people in on your struggles can often lead to surprising friendship and support from people. I would definitely be upfront with your direct supervisor and the people who report to you directly, preferably before the change in appearance is noticeable.
Hang in there.
Becca
Thanks, that’s a useful website.
I’m not so concerned about disclosing to my direct team, who already know I have had health problems, and will likely be glad I’m now getting good treatment. I am less sure about patients, more distant colleagues, and particularly interviewers.
K
There was an article on Corporette about a year ago that addressed this issue – it’s at https://corporette.com/2009/08/17/reader-mail-how-to-look-professional-while-suffering-from-a-visible-medical-condition/
Becca
Thanks, sorry for not seeing the previous article before.
K
Oh, I wasn’t criticizing! Just pointing it out in case it’s helpful – I was the original poster for that one so it came to mind right away. :-)
Becca
None taken, thanks for the head-up, it’s a useful article :)
Anon, a mouse!
Many Orthodox Jewish women wear large square cotton scarves to cover their hair. I think that, in a dark color, this looks very professional. I’ve also seen some Muslim women pick up this style, worn with a turtleneck since they also prefer to cover their necks.
There are lots of scarf tying tips on this site: http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/tying.pl. “The bun” is probably the simplest and most professional because it’d draw the least attention. Just get a few cotton scarves you can match with your suits. That site has simple cotton scarves for $5 so you can afford a few.
I doubt any strangers or new acquaintances will ask questions. As for not going into medical details with coworkers, though, you probably will have to answer questions about why you’re wearing a scarf. A simple ‘I’m on medication that has made my hair fall out’ will suffice. If you don’t want to disclose that your hair has fallen out, ‘I’m on medication that makes my scalp hurt and my doctor advised me to wear a cotton scarf’ is probably a good response too. If they ask follow up questions, just say ‘I’m sorry, but I don’t want to discuss my health’ and leave it at that.
Becca
Thanks, that site’s got some neat ideas for scarf tying. I think I’ll start with plain brown scarves, and see how that goes. At least I save on shampoo ;)
Considering the number of women who wear head coverings to work for cultural or religious reasons, maybe I won’t look so odd – but there aren’t so many who do in this city. Guess I’ll just have to work on some stock responses.
Louise
I can’t imagine that anyone who is meeting you for the first time will ask any questions about a scarf or an unusual/patchy hair style. Most folks just accept that you are the way you are when they meet you. As for co-workers, the suggestions to explain it simply and upfront as a medical issue under treatment should work well.
Gigi, your comments are especially good; thanks for sharing your personal experience.
Becca, best of luck in your treatment. I hope this phase is over soon and that you have a complete recovery!
North Shore
When you cut your hair, you could borrow a line from Carly Fiorina and say your old hairstyle was “so yesterday” so you needed a change.
And I’m sorry for your situation and don’t have much advice, but something to keep in mind is that most people at some point in their lives will have an obvious medical issue, and I bet people will be understanding. I had surgery for a cochlear implant and they shaved a large section of my hair for that. The remaining hair mostly covered it, but my office was friendly and super supportive, and I remember showing off my scar and shaved head when I came back to work. So, anyway, you are not alone here, and there are some awfully cute scarves and hats out there. Good luck.
AN
I’d just say don’t worry too much about people. Most folk know atleast 1 person who has had this issue for whatever reason (main one is chemo) and will be understanding and sympathetic.
I had a close friend who had chemo at age 32 and she was a high flyer in our workplace, She just shaved it all off (think Demi Moore in GI Jane) and acted normally. That also made the people around her act as usual. Don’t worry.
Good luck.
J
I am going to be vacationing in Europe next week (after the bar exam)! While I should be doing some last-minute studying, I am very distracted at the moment. Does anyone have any recommendations of a bag that is big enough to carry a camera, bottled water, but yet safe enough to be carrying around Rome?
Thanks!
dee
What specifically are you worried about in Rome? I was in Rome a few years ago (by myself) and I never felt particularly unsafe. My friends got their bags snatched, but they were probably being bozos and the way the bags were snatched is that they were literally cut off their bodies – there is not much you can do about that. If you’re worried about someone snatching your bag, I would just focus on one that you can carry close to your body – any shoulder bag will do. And one you will not be devastated about losing if someone does snatch it.
MelD
I traveled in Rome and other parts of Italy 2.5 years ago mostly by myself and just carried a cheap H&M shoulder bag. There are some places I wouldn’t walk around alone at night, but otherwise it’s a fairly safe city. The most daunting part for me was just navigating the crazy traffic as a pedestrian.
Anon, a mouse!
I’d advise not to wear a backpack or crossbody bag. A bag that hangs on one shoulder that you’ll keep one hand on the strap at all times is the safest. As dee mentioned, it’s not unusual for bags to be cut off of someone by a thief; in my experience this usually happens to people carrying a crossbody bag who aren’t holding on to it at all. A tote bag with a zipper top, like the classic style from Lands End, should be a safe bet.
MelD
I knew someone who was the victim of a purse snatching by someone in a moving vehicle. Because she had on a cross-body bag, it did not come off immediately and she was dragged several feet before the thief let go. She lost several teeth and had several other injuries that required her to be hospitalized in her home country. Even though it may be frustrating to lose your purse and/or passport, those are all replaceable items.
M
I spent a few weeks in Europe earlier this year (including Rome — you will love it!) and used this bag the whole time: http://www.zappos.com/fossil-sasha-large-top-zip-tan?zlfid=111.
It worked perfectly for me. I adjusted the strap so I was carrying it kind of high (above hip level) and kept the bag in front of me and one hand on the strap at all times. I was warned against fabric bags by two friends that had the bottom of their bags slit open while on crowded trains, so I wanted something leather that didn’t look terribly touristy but was still safe and functional and this fit the bill perfectly. I usually carried my water bottle, a camera, a small umbrella, my wallet and a map. This fit everything and distributed the weight nicely so my shoulders weren’t killing me. I highly recommend it!
Also, I didn’t pay $150 on Zappos, I was able to find it on eBay for about $50, and eBags also sells it at a discount at times, so you could probably find it for a better price.
fresh jd
For my Euro-travels, the best thing I did was buy cheap but cute large totes at H&M or Forever 21 and wear them to death…and not feel sorry for getting them dirty b/c the price was so low I can just throw them out before leaving and have even less to travel with on the way back.
Suze
Further to fresh jd’s point, this may be TOO downmarket/juvie, but I just bought my daughters each a canvas tote from Aeropostale (style mecca for tweens, you know), and they were like $12 each and one of them does not SCREAM ‘Aeropostale’ – it has like an abstract print. They are durable, perfect size and handle/carry configuration for this purpose (ie, you can carry close/higher up your hip) and will hold the items you are taking (my daughters have been using them for swim/gym/tennis camp so they tote lunch, water, sunscreen, towel, change of clothes, yada). And maybe the juvie/downmarket effect will be deterrent….
Oh, and, have a wonderful time in Rome!!! It’s just lovely and the food, well…the food. If you have open plans and can pull it off, the Amalfi coast is TO DIE FOR. My $.02 :).
Good luck on the bar!!
N
I don’t have any direct recommendation for bags, but I was in Rome three weeks ago, and wore a basic backpack for the water, cover-up and other heavy things, that weren’t irreplacable. I would usually walk around with the camera in hand, and my money in very, very deep pockets on my shorts. (I can’t walk around with heavy items in a side bag for long, I start to shift to one side and then get aches and pains from it)
A couple of my traveling mates wore regular bags across their bodies, and made sure they had the bag on the side of their bodies so they had control of it.
None of us had anything stolen.
Unlike Barcelona (where I felt like every potential bump was someone looking to empty my pockets), Rome did not feel very unsafe to me. What the guidebook recommended was ensuring that you look after your valuables around the Colosseum, and at The Spanish Steps and other major tourist sites, as well as the Termini station.
Here are some of my other tips for Rome:
– It will most certainly be warm. Unless you’re used to extreme heat, try to schedule in some time in cold museums, lunch breaks, or simply siesta in the warmest part of the day. Air conditioned hotel room with a break from 1-5 pm saved my sanity.
– Start out early in the day, when the heat isn’t extreme, and there are less tourists about. There was hardly any lines for the Colosseum at 9AM, nor was there much of a line for the Vatican Museum at 8AM. (I realize it is vacation, but this is also where the siesta comes into play ;))
– Find out what you want to see, and what you can pre-order tickets for in advance. We pre-booked our tickets to the Vatican museum, and then skipped the line to get in at the allotted time slot we’d booked.
– Eat the ice cream. There are ice cream shops everywhere, and it is good!
– Try to avoid dining around major tourist spots – it will be over-priced and the food is not that good. Rather try places that are a bit hidden away and have, at most, menus in Italian and English – probably best if the menu just is in Italian. (We found a place with menus in all Scandinavian languages… and very overpriced.)
– Find local supermarkets and buy water-bottles there by the six pack. Cheaper and less cumbersome than buying one and one bottle. (Refilling can be iffy depending on the water quality.)
– In the heat, the Metro system is your friend. Quick transportation between various spots, and relatively inexpensive.
Makeup Junkie
Agreed – just wear a backpack and stay alert Anything else and you’ll start to feel lopsided, especially if like me, you’re out sightseeing from sun up to sun down.
I agree also with eating the ice cream! You’ll be walking it off so no worries there
J
i had the total opposite experience! in barcelona (which is probably my favorite city on the continent after berlin), i felt nothing but safe. in rome, on the other hand, i felt like a walking target. i’m no travel greenhorn either – i went to rome after living in paris (NOT studying abroad) for months…maybe it was the time of year or something. i went to barcelona in may and rome in july.
N
Interesting – everyone I talked to before traveling, who’d been to Barcelona (I live in Norway at the moment, so Barcelona is quite popular for weekend trips) said that Barcelona is probably the city in Western Europe that has the most pickpockets, and almost everyone had had something stolen there. That’s also why I held particularly on to my valuables there – and had an inner belt for passport, credit cards, etc. whereas in Rome I was much more lax about that. (In Rome, I’ve heard they go mostly for American tourists who tend to flash their expensive cameras and bags, but that might just be hearsay)
But aside from that, Barcelona was a lovely city, and I would definitely go back there. I did not care for the Rambla, but adored the other parts of the city (despite worrying about pickpockets)
Both Barcelona and Rome felt a lot safer and were much nicer once you were out of the most touristy-areas.
Another tip would be to have a small pouch of spending money for the day that you drag out, instead of a wallet filled with money and credit cards. If you’re counting out the Euros from a small pouch, you seem a lot less rich (and therefore not as interesting) as the ones who’ve got a thick wad of notes… I found a cute, credit-card sized pouch with zipper that I used for my coins and notes.
CJ in CA
Just glad I’m not the only one cruising corporette when I should be studying for the bar.
1L (Summer) NYC
The best thing to do (I have traveled in both Rome and Barcelona, and this saved my friend from having to go the American Embassy) is to carry all of your important belongings — i.e. passport, credit card, identification in one of those bags that you can tuck under your shirt. Everything else can go in a shoulder bag. Also, if possible, upload all of your pictures onto an online hosting site if that other bag gets stolen (and you have a camera).
mille
I carry money and identification in a safe pocket or somewhere on my body, not in a purse or bag. I like the small bags that go under your shirt for this. I’d also make sure any bag I carried zipped at the top– no open tote bags. I hate backpacks– you never know when someone behind you is quietly opening a pocket on it. Try not to walk too close to traffic, and never leave your purse on the car seat next to you in a taxi or when you are driving. Smash and grabs happen quickly.
As always, you should bring copies of your passport and id and store it in a hotel safe. My other backup is my iphone– I have a program on it that lets you lock pictures under a password, so you can take pictures of your documents, your hotel room and address, and everything else. No one will be able to access it if they steal your phone, and I usually leave the phone in my hotel safe anyway. You can also put these pictures on a website or save them in your email for easy access. Take pictures of your luggage and bags as well, just in case of airline loss or hotel screw-ups.
As for cameras, I always bring a memory card reader so I can upload pictures to the internet in case I have the camera stolen.
That all being said, you should be fine and safe in Rome. I ruined a perfectly good vacation for myself in the South of France by being too worried. We rented a house, and there was a very long list of warnings, including what to do if you woke up and someone was in the house. It made it sound like a common occurrence, and I couldn’t sleep and didn’t want to go out, but didn’t want to stay in, and couldn’t feel safe anywhere.
Anon
I’m dying to know what the home owners recommended you do if you woke up and someone was in the house…
Given the strict gun laws in France, I’m guessing they don’t have a castle doctrine.
CTx
Ditto on everything mille suggested! I also used a small bag (a money belt) and would recommend it. It wasn’t my most fashionable choice ever, but I tucked it into the top of my jeans and pulled my shirt over it. I didn’t do this every day (as pulling money out of your pants at a restaurant can be awkward), but it was ideal for long train or bus trips when there was a chance that I would doze off unintentionally and be a prime target for theft! (Of course, this wouldn’t stop anyone from getting to my bag, but at least I knew that my money and passport were tucked away.)
AN
Rome is generally safe. We actually split cash into 2 places when we were there – passport+tickets+ emergency $$ in a pouch attached to our belt & then tucked inside our jeans (I mean on the inner side) and the other in a small shoulderbag/backpack.
BBR
Just want to share that I bought this shirt full price (regretting that now :) but I really like it and now its half off, in most every size and every color
http://www.anntaylor.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=26176&N=1200041&pCategoryId=3944&categoryId=341&Ns=PV_PRICE&Nr=AND%28CAT_SALE_FLAG%3aY%29&Nty=1&No=28&loc=TN&defaultColor=Rainforest&defaultSizeType=Regular#
Louise
Cute!
ABCD
I need some advice:
Has anyone ever had a business trip to a tropical country? I’ll be taking one soon to developing country with 80-100 degree weather. We’re meeting with Government officials and local corporations. I’m really not sure what I’m expected to wear — and unfortunately all the suits I own are wool. Are there “summer suits” that would be appropriate?
naijamodel
I grew up in a tropical country, and professional attire was not “laid back” per se. There is a lot of “respect” and if you are meeting officials you will be expected to dress professionally. The only difference I remember at the moment is that women wear “feminine” suits a lot – flared skirts, cap sleeve jackets. Things that sometimes get bashed on this site, lol. You can wear 3/4 length sleeves on dress shirts and blouses too. Anything to keep cool! Definitely no stockings/pantyhose.
Dresses are very popular with working women where I come from – and that can give you some leeway in terms of picking appropriate fabrics for the weather.
Suze
I have *limited* (and somewhat dated) experience in Caribbean/Latin America/Central America. Agree with naijamodel re professional dress, but with ‘feminity’ – one model would be Kat’s outfit on the recent video thing – a dress and blazer (good for over a/c’d environments and initial meetings, but not required for taxi rides, etc).
cbackson
Agreed; I worked in a professional position in a tropical country and often had meetings with government officials. Unfortunately, I’d say you’ve definitely got to wear a suit.
Eponine
Yes, you need to wear a suit but there are summerweight ones. Can you afford to pick up a tropical wool or cotton blend suit? Ann Taylor, Brooks Brothers and Talbots all have lightweight wool options. It’s also be fine to wear separates and be a bit more feminine and colorful than usual – it’s fine to wear a white suit, a sheath dress and jacket, no pantyhose, etc.
AN
If SouthEast Asia, then dresses are generally acceptable (classic black/grey/navy sheath etc). Carry a blazer too depending on who you’re meeting. Suits – you have a lot of mileage in terms of colour and fabric.
Try to stick with knee length if visiting the Indian subcontinent – short stuff is a no-no. Here business suits are rarely seen in the workplace (as women wear the local equiv. of business formal to work) so anything you wear is ok, as there’s nothing to compare with:)
AN
You will have LOTS of mileage with hose (not needed) and shoes. Peeptoe/conservative sandals are fine.
ABCD
Thanks for the advice!
I wouldn’t mind spending money on a tropical wool suit – or at least a jacket to use as a blazer since all of mine are lined thick wool. However, in the US I only wear suits when going on interviews, meeting with clients, or going to court (just to watch, not to speak — I’m a new attorney and not a litigator). So I’m wondering, would the tropical wool be appropriate for those occasions too?
fellow bra struggler
My experience with tropical countries, especially developing countries, is that attire is a lot more laid back. The discussion of the appropriateness of peep toes above clearly varied by heat index, so I would imagine that a more business casual look would be appropriate. Also, if you are wearing skirts, bring a slip or two – skirts that are perfectly opaque can turn see through in the strong tropical sun.
Megan
I’ve been interning at a federal govt agency this summer, where I’ve been assigned to a supervisor/mentor. Even though I have done a few work assignments for other attorneys, the bulk of my work and guidance has come from her. I’d like to get her a small gift before I leave. 1) Is this too much? Would a thank-you be better? and 2) Some guidelines for what is an appropriate gift? For instance, she likes cooking and is a coffee lover – would a nice cookbook or coffee press send too much of a Martha Stewart/Betty Crocker vibe?
North Shore
I’d suggest a nice letter thanking her for her help and telling her that she was a great mentor. There are so many rules regarding gifts, and you don’t want to put her in a position of having to reject your gift. Nobody ever expects gifts in my gov’t office (well, until retirement) because of these rules.
Megan
Thanks North Shore, I hadn’t considered any rules regarding gifts. . .
AN
Could you take her out to a nice lunch as a “thank you”?
Eponine
I think a gift is lovely and thoughtful but make sure it’s very inexpensive to avoid running afoul of government gift rules. Since she likes coffee, how about sending a coffee mug with your school’s logo on it and a thank-you card once you get back to school?
Res Ipsa
Megan, a sincere thank-you note would be appreciated and is probably the best gift. You would likely stand out as an exceptionally thoughtful intern! Because of the gift restrictions, a coffee mug, as Eponine suggested, would be about your limit, but honestly, you might be better off without giving anything because no one who works for the feds expects gifts and it might, in fact, make them somewhat uncomfortable.