This post may contain affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.
Something on your mind? Chat about it here.
I saw a midsize TikToker raving about this slinky Amazon sweater dress, so I decided to get it (in black, in the shorter version). As I've written about before, I send a lot of stuff back — but this was one of the keepers.
I threw the belt on the floor and promptly forgot about it, to be honest — the waist is fitted, so it's pure decoration. The dress looks like it's falling off the model here (and the TikToker loved that about the dress), but you really have to squiggle it off your shoulders to make it look like that — the dress by nature is more of a higher-necked V.
The shorter version does not have slits, but definitely has that stretchy-sweater-dress-cling — I'd worried the longer dress would be too long for me, but with the slits maybe not.
I wore it with translucent fleece pantyhose (because of course I did) for my birthday dinner a few weeks ago (on a heated patio).
The dress is available in 20 options, sizes S–XL, for $39–$49, at Amazon.
(I'm bummed I cannot remember the TikToker… I'm thinking she has an accent and is blonde, so maybe @suzie_stevens? Hmmn).
This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support!
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
Sales of note for 11.5.24
- Nordstrom – Fall sale, up to 50% off!
- Ann Taylor – Extra 40% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + extra 25% off with your GAP Inc. credit card
- Bloomingdales is offering gift cards ($20-$1200) when you spend between $100-$4000+. The promotion ends 11/10, and the gift cards expire 12/24.
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Fall clearance event, up to 85% off
- J.Crew – 40% off fall favorites; prices as marked
- J.Crew Factory – Up to 60% off everything + 60% off clearance
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – New sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – Buy one, get one – 50% off everything!
- White House Black Market – Holiday style event, take 25% off your entire purchase
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Horse Crazy
Does anyone have the Beats Studio Buds? Are they comfortable? If not, can you recommend another comfortable earbud under $150? No AirPods – must be compatible with Android.
Is it Friday yet?
I have a pair of the Jabra Elite Active 75t buds – they’re fantastic for both music and taking calls, and still going strong after two years of use. They’re Wirecutter’s top pick for 2022 as well.
Formerly DC
I also have these. However, they don’t stay in my ears well even when I’m just sitting on the couch. Sound quality is great and people on the far side of a call say they hear me better than when I’m holding my phone.
anon
i had to switch out my rubber pieces to the small size on my jabras and now they fit great!
Senior Attorney
I got those for my husband for Christmas and he loves them. I borrowed them one day when I’d left mine at the office and I loved them, too.
aBr
A bit over $150 but really like the Bose Sport Earbuds. More comfortable for me than my AirPods, battery lasts longer and they feel more secure in my ears when running. Can attest that they hold up to long summer runs in SEUS humidity (that perhaps the human whose ears they are in shouldn’t be doing…).
Anonymous
My teenager wears them for hours every day and loves them.
Anon
aftershocks are better and safer. keeps your ears open for local noise and no problems with earbuds falling out!!
Anonymous
i have them and would not recommend. they are ok, but not better than my airpod pros. i wish i got the jabra ones someone else mentioned.
Anon
I have JBL earbuds and they stay in even during spinning workout. Sound is great.
Anon
I have the Powerbeats pros and love those – the ear hook keeps them on and no issues pairing with non-apple devices. Long lasting and good noise cancellation.
Anon
I have really narrow shoulders and this dress as styled is making me nervous.
Many thanks to this morning’s recommender of A Glass of Bevino. She is hysterical (death! but make it feminine).
Anon
You’re welcome! Yes, her retelling of her style evolution is hilarious. I really want to be her friend.
Anon
And I love that she is crafty (one of my fave Beastie Boys songs). And not OMG you need $$$ to get this look. My natural style, I fear, is very Edina Monsoon. But maybe I can evolve from where I start . . .
Anon
Okay well now I want to be your friend too because living room a la Edina Monsoon sounds amazing.
Anonymous
Does anyone feel like their career will just amount to them being a worker bee and nothing more and they’re not satisfied with that?
16 years out of law school, 10 years in biglaw and 6 in government. In NYC biglaw I worked all the time which is pretty standard; great reviews and was the one the partners HAD TO staff anytime a complicated case, trial team etc. came in. So they trusted me but were snippy all the time – which isn’t unheard of in that environment. I was the last associate left in my class but when partnership time came they laughed in my face almost literally – like YOU as OUR partner, like you’d ever have a book etc. And the ones who were supposed “mentors” looked away because it wasn’t politically expedient. Later it became apparent that the firm wasn’t financially flush and wasn’t going to “waste” a partnership on anyone that wasn’t a bro.
Government has been better in some ways but again anything complicated comes in or anything that’ll require a ton of writing and I MUST be staffed on it – they will not let me decline. So then I’m the one writing 20-30 pagers and it results in middle mgmt./higher ups then saying “WE did a great job on this one” OR getting snippy with me because I dared used my judgment on structure, yet when I asked their input early on verbally and in email they say “fine” to anything I suggest because they can’t be bothered/don’t care.
Just thinking about this, I can’t do it for two more decades. I’m not saying I need to be CEO of a F500 but I do need to be treated like more than everyone second year associate. The good reviews don’t do it for me; there’s no promotional potential in fed govt – they always use budget as an excuse but in reality when promotions come up they go to people who’ve been loyal for 2 decades not 6 years. What’s the solution here? Jump ship until I find something better? Leave law – there’s a niche finance industry (not IB/PE or compliance) where I have some connections and I wonder if that’d be better.
And part of me can’t help but wonder is this because I’m Asian American? I’m hardly a stereotypical AA from the movies sitting in the corner toiling away not saying a word – IDK anyone who is these days; I’m fine with networking events, I run meetings at work etc. Yet heaven forbid I ever stand up for myself (which isn’t daily – more like once every year or two when I’ve really had it), I’m quickly labeled angry or difficult or reminded this is a TEAM. Certainly a guy would be considered ambitious and assertive . . . . Help?
Formerly DC
Would you be satisfied to coast in your government job either in the short term or the long term and use the available time you now have to seriously pursue your hobbies/interests or nonprofit work that is important to you (including a board seat)? This is the approach I have taken as a government lawyer in a job with zero upward mobility, and I like it very much.
No Face
It seems like you are frustrated with the political aspect of your roles, rather than practicing law generally or litigation specifically. You also haven’t mentioned any financial problems. In your shoes, I would start a search on Indeed for “litigation” and start applying broadly. Try anything! What do you have to lose?
As to your last paragraph, there are many people who are triggered by a WOC asserting herself. In my experience, that is almost anywhere.
Mary
Ugh I am sending you so much love!!! This sounds awful and seems like an issue stemming from systemic sexism/racism and not at all with you. Government jobs are also notoriously not great for people wanting to be rewarded for excellence or who want the option of expedited career advancement.
You sound like a brilliant and hard-working person who just needs to find a place where that talent is recognized, valued, and rewarded. If I were you, I would try to take some emotional space from your current role (i.e., do your work but don’t put it on yourself to constantly excel) and then network and job search like crazy. Ask your friends what fields they (or people they know) find the most rewarding. Ask of any openings they could refer you into. There are so many other options available to you and you deserve to find somewhere that makes you feel recognized and valued.
Ellen
I agree with this comment and give warm hugs to the OP. It seems that this society works us like oxen, then when we come up for some hay, tell us they have to feed their “bros” (a/k/a their buddies) first. The OP is a dedicated smart and hardworking women, and we are often taken for granted because we are always able to get the job done efficiently. The OP’s biglaw experience is typical; churned, chewed, and then spit out by the machine.
Sadly, her government experience typifies the pubic sector’s bureaucracy at its worst. Laziness is to be expected among the higher-ups, but to penalize and scoff at the OP is untenable. She should have been given a fair shake for being such an overachiever. But they are afraid of her, since she is smarter and harder working than any of the higher-ups.
The solutions have already been laid out. If it were me, I’d just coast, as she’s 16 years in, and is probably about my age. The good news is that she’s in Government, and can in all likelihood earn around $200K a year with benefits and retire in another 15 years at age 55, with a decent pension and health benefits. So by my calculation, she will be a millionaire with great benefits when she is only 55. So I say stick it out and coast. You can’t be fired and you can take up a hobby if you haven’t already done so.
My final thought is that no where is a man mentioned. This should not change my analysis, as we have to be able to be independent of a man, as they too are remarkably unreliable, and of no use unless the men see a benefit to them. So I say here find a man, but don’t depend on him for anything important down the line. Expect some moments of elation, but recognize that a man cannot satisfy you in conventional s-xual positions. You will need to take care of that yourself, but I take it you are already familiar with this so I will not expand on it here.
In any event, best of luck in your choices going forward. YAY!!!!
Anon
I feel like with BigLaw (perhaps all jobs), being a good worker bee is necessary but not sufficient. It’s like that makes you good enough for counsel. But that is just going to be a recipe to be worked to death I think.
Anonymous
OP here – when I was in biglaw non equity partner or counsel wasn’t an option; those existed but not nearly in the numbers that they exist right now simply because firms weren’t as busy as right now and needed people to be up and out. I talk to recruiters here and there and yep no one will consider me for anything other than counsel right now. I get it – I don’t have a book so I don’t expect equity partnership but IDK goin back in and working to death to go from counsel to NEP to EP given the hours that are ALWAYS expected of me anywhere I go seems . . . unappealing.
Cora
I think the board seat on a nonprofit that Formerly DC mentioned is a good idea.
You want to feel like you have ownership over something. You don’t need to be CEO, but yes, in business you might be a director of a department or something that gives you a degree of control. I’m not sure what the equivalent is in law.
I’ve found that being a subject matter expert of some type helps with this – you’re not a worker bee then. Would going in house be an option?
anon
In-house SME is the only way I have figured this out in my 14 years of practicing.
Anon
I can’t speak to other environments, but I was a SME in fed govt for almost a decade and it got me nowhere. It was a heavily political environment and the promotions went to the hard core networkers who were always going on lunches with upper management. That was never going to be me, so I got out. I’m in house now and much happier but I also wonder if I’ll be a worker bee forever (WOC here).
Nina
I’m not in law so trying to get a sense of this – what are some jobs in or adjacent to law that would give OP the non-worker-bee feeling she is looking for?
Anonymous
I had a very similar problem. Definitely not uncommon for lawyers, mostly women but I also know men like this. I basically was the go to person for very complex, challenging work. Because I was so busy doing the work, I didn’t have time to do a lot of the other stuff I needed to do to build a career.
I worked with a career coach (like an executive coach type) and found it to be extremely helpful in changing my mindset and giving me tools to overcome a lot of this. I’ve been promoted twice in 18 months since making changes and feel much more in control.
The changes I made focused on personal branding/messaging my work, prioritizing my time/projects at work, and tactics for managing my workflow (like training more junior team members to take over some of the work I had been doing to free up time).
anon
Would you mind sharing some examples about the changes related to “personal branding/messaging my work”?
Curious
I’m not OP, but I had to confidently propose, get buy in for, and execute changes big and bold enough to (1) require influencing senior management from multiple departments and (2) be perceived as bold strategic thinking and not just impeccable technical acumen. This was a weird skill set to acquire and made me feel like I was being fake and inauthentic at first, but it’s exhilarating once you get the hang of it and start getting credit for your original thinking and get people to take risks with you. I’m at about the same point in my career as you and hope this helps. I am white though and recognize my experience is different.
Anonymous
OP of the comment and it’s very similar to this. As a small example, I meet a lot of new people at work and I changed the way I described my job. I was initially describing my job as “I do these tasks” but changed my description to “I’m
in charge of Subject Area” (both of which were true, but one conveys more autonomy).
As a medium example, we do a lot of trainings. My boss kept assigning me the trainings for the most “administrative” tasks, so many people in the organization viewed me as a person who does technical tasks. I went to my boss and proposed my junior direct report takeover those trainings as a development opportunity, and I sold my boss on a set of trainings for senior leadership on more strategic topics.
I also got better at interfacing with my peers. I am not that into hierarchy, and so I was spending a lot of time working with the most junior people in our business. Having so much direct contact with folks multiple levels below me was giving the impression I was more junior than I am. I still do a ton of mentoring, but I shifted my workflow so I have more direct contact with my peers.
Anonymous
PP with the branding suggestion of “I’m in charge of this,” that’s excellent, thank you for sharing!
OP of this post, thank you got starting this discussion. I’m at a similar point and could have written much of your post verbatim. And also asian-Am fwiw. Appreciate the thoughtful replies here.
Anon
Being the good worker bee is never going to be the path up. At best, you’ll stall as a senior subject matter expert, in any field, and especially law. If you want to advance, you need a rebrand & you probably need to rethink your strategy. Putting your head down & getting the work done isn’t the way up. Thinking strategically, showing that you add value to the right people, networking, all of that is what you should focus on. It’s not hours billed or pages written.
anon
+1,000 I do not crush hours like this – I am VERY good at networking and befriending the right people to make moves. If I have learned anything in my 42 years, it’s that it is very rarely about what you do, and way more about who you know.
Curious
One thing that stands out to you is that you are finding people “getting snippy with you”. That phrasing feels… Weird? Somewhat contemptuous of the others?It makes me wonder if you have gotten a chance to learn to productively raise and handle conflict, including influencing others to follow your lead. Gaps in that area can lead to limited upward mobility / getting seen as not strategic. If you haven’t had a good mentor in that area, I second the advice to find an executive coach — it may be that practicing influencing will help. That said, racism and sexism are also Things and it’s definitely fair to seek an environment where women and, for you in particular, Asian American women are respected as a baseline.
Curious
*stands out to me
Curious
Reading Coach Laura’s reply below, sounds like snippy might actually be a thing in your industry. Yuck. Sorry if my reaction was off base.
Curious
Also… Late in the day, but when I say “productively raise and handle conflict”, I do not mean “behave in a way that appeals to expectations that AA women will be passive while still influencing”. Because that’s an impossible tight rope. I just had to learn to a bunch of influencing techniques in the past 2 years to be perceived as strategic enough for a middle management promotion, and it took a lot of change in my behavior and a lot of mentoring from a senior woman. So I’m coming from there. Best of luck to you.
Tea/Coffee
So many hugs from another AA woman who has been, at times, labeled “arrogant” and “aggressive” for the same behavior that my white bro colleagues are lauded for. IANAL though.
So, my suggestions boil down to job hunt vs find a way to find your tribe (who will then help you find your voice).
Job hunt = find a better environment, period. Although I have no idea how you filter for this during interviews…
Find your tribe = find those who will be your true allies, regardless of rank. These are the people who will tell it like it is (“Yeah, you actually WERE kinda getting in Dude’s face”) and also boost you to others. Just finding a few people who understand that you’re an asset can make a world of difference. There are probably others at your firm who feel similarly for similar reasons.
For me, improvement boiled down to two things: my #1 detractor left the company :-) and I accepted that a big part of my functional role involves making people trust me… for which I must occasionally play nicey-nice. NOT subservient AA wifey kind of deal, but just “I’m gonna be super nice to you AND a great performer, so that the next time we have to have a TALK you are more likely to listen.” This has not been a quick process by any means.
Allie
Ugh, I’m so sorry. Can you move to a government job with a great manager? Can you ask around or observe who would cultivate your leadership and try to work under them? Maybe join a local bar associate committee to broaden your network? Also, in gvt unlike biglaw you can totally object to assignments as long as you overall work hard — I mean what are they going to do? I have found you have to be a sticky widget sometimes, but I’m not a POC so am mindful I may have more leway.
Allie
*Association
Coach Laura
IANAL but I think you could find a good position in-house or at another government type/agency. You don’t say, but I assume you’re Federal. Can you change from where you are now to something else, like SEC or Treasury? If Fed, can you go to a state agency? I know some states have complex litigation departments and they staff attorneys to advise the judicial counsel and manage the litigation through to conclusion – that might be good with your litigation background. Can you leverage your contacts to go into finance or compliance? I don’t know if that will give you what you’re looking for but some find it interesting. What about working for startups?
I’ve been in finance (not NYC) for 30+ years and use attorneys and work with attorneys all the time, either in-house counsel or hired counsel, and while I don’t know the market, I do know that most of the in-house counsel I work with are happy and feel like they contribute meaningfully.
Hiring a career coach with a law background – especially someone from big law or who is familiar with the NYC law environment – might be a good investment. I can definitely relate to the snippy comments and it does sound like they are using you as a worker bee instead of valuing your input. And it could definitely have a racism/se*ism component. (Trying to avoid mod – we’ll see if it works.) You might be able to better handle the passive-aggressive snippy comments and learn to deal with fraught team dynamics. But it might just be an environment problem and not much to do with you – they just use you up, and spit you out, as the song says.
But a coach could help you explore other industries and organizations and develop a good search plan. I agree that doing what you’re doing for another 20-30 years would not be appealing.
You may also want to consider non-JD required positions – it’s hard for me to give ideas without knowing your particular flavor of law experience. Lawyers I know who have left the JD-required jobs have gone to jobs including Loan Portfolio Managers. (These were very complex deals using 5-6 layers of financing for affordable housing using state and Federal subsidies, primary and mezzanine financing etc. We used to have conference calls with 25 people, half of whom were lawyers, and 100-300 pages of documents, all of which needed legal review and/or drafting.). Others work in RE departments for large corporations. Neither of these may appeal to you but I’m sure there are more.
You could do a total change and become a legal recruiter or an advisor to start up companies or angel investors. Some of these may require F-you money for the transition. There is also consulting, but I don’t know enough to advise on that.
Anon
I strongly recommend an executive coach. Mine helped me so much in a similar situation. Also, have you considered hanging up your own shingle? You’re a great lawyer able to do all the litigation and writing tasks which is a huge step up for success in running your own firm.
Anon
My coach was Ellen Ostrow who specializes in coaching women lawyers. She’s wonderful
Coach Laura
She looks great!
Anon
As an AA woman, your post really resonated with me. You’re not alone in how you feel. I’m a non equity partner in biglaw and I will tell you it’s not any better and you made the right choice to leave when you did. Similar to you, I’m always the one who is put on super complex deals or asked to help on deals that go wrong and basically fix them or make sure it doesn’t get screwed up when less competent people are on it. I don’t feel valued at all and that’s reflected in the fact that I will never make equity and I will also just never have a book of business. Despite seeming “normal”, clients just don’t come to me for advice and go to other team members. For awhile I thought maybe they’re just intimidated by me but I think part of it, which I never wanted to admit, is because I am AA. Unfortunately I think it’s going to be like this in service industries so I’m not sure if finance is going to be better for you unless you don’t have to do business development. I have thought about leaving as well and have been doing lots of informational interviews to figure out what to do next. I have also thought about leaving law altogether. Anyway I don’t have concrete steps for you but just wanted to know you’re not alone and if you ever want someone to commiserate with, feel free to post a burner email!
donnyandbuster
I am also an AA woman in a technical field. I feel similarly to you.
Flat back earrings
Flat back earrings are also sold as nap earring by some brands. I have some from Maison Miru that are threaded and are a pain to get on, but once they’re in, I just leave them in my second piercing on each ear.
Bonnie Kate
Can anyone give me some scripts on addressing tone/a sense of bossiness with one of my reports? She is in a support role for multiple people and I’m getting multiple complaints from others that the way she is addressing things is like she’s assigning other people (who are very much above her) tasks. I don’t want to squash her proactiveness, but we also don’t like to be told what to do by a much more inexperienced support role. She also has a knack for pointing out things in a way that seems like she’s catching our errors…but they’re not errors, or they’re just things that need to be taken in a different direction (like no one did anything wrong, something just doesn’t work and we need to try something else). I have a pretty thick skin and I’ve so far not been personally offended and am good at mostly assuming good intentions, but I do recognize what the others are talking about. There was an email she addressed to me today in a way that make me think “hey, WTF?” In particular, the VP and general manager are really getting sick of being “assigned” tasks and told they’ve done something wrong (when they’re not) by the assistant project coordinator. I’d like to coach her on this, but I’m really struggling with how to phrase what she’s doing wrong exactly.
Anon
Show her examples (her own emails) and offer suggestions of alternative wording.
pugsnbourbon
Is she the right person to be communicating errors and edits to the VP? Could she send the information to you and then you could pass it along?
Bonnie Kate
I’ve actually “saved” a few interactions by stepping in and directing it this way. It’d be really nice if they could just talk though! We’re really not THAT big of a company to have a lot of hierarchy. But I also have a better handle on what’s on their plate so I’m not bothering them with problems they actually don’t need to be dealing with, so I could gatekeeper for for the VP more.
That doesn’t solve my general manager issue though. The general manager is actually an owner of the company as well, and they have to work together without me as a gatekeeper in the middle. I’m way better people managing than the general manager or the VP.
She also tends to “boss” the other guys around who she needs to work with. But she’s not their boss.
Anonymous
tell her that you have received complaints about the way that she communicates and since you (obvi) know that she is dedicated to role and wants to make sure things are perfect, that you want to work with her on her communication style. The way she addresses issues with higher-ups now is 1) not appropriate (if it’s not? i can’t tell) and 2) hindering both team spirit and how she is perceived by others in the office. I would counsel her that sometimes how things are said means more to the recipient than what is actually said, and that it is good practice to be calm/polite/deferential in written communications, especially when pointing out mistakes. That way, if it is a mistake the person who made it does not feel attacked and if it is not a mistake (something else needs to be tried) then she isn’t pointing it out in an overly aggressive way. It is hard to read tone in an email, so making sure that hers are polite and appropriate would probably go a long way. I would have this as more of a counseling session than a disciplinary issue.
anon
I once managed someone who was lower level from a food chain perspective and who also was really really bad at communicating via emails (and often verbally too). She came off as extremely brusque and had the same way of assigning people things who were above her.
Here’s what I did . . . in our 1:1s, we would talk about her goals and development and into that discussion, I brought in that, wrong or right, perceptions matter and it would be hard for her to advance in the company even with my support if she was perceived in a negative way by superiors. We reviewed email examples and I kindly and gently walked her through how someone else could perceive what she had written in a negative way, but I was also careful to reinforce that I knew she didn’t mean it that way. I also offered to review emails before she sent them for a while if she thought that would be helpful for her. There is no overnight fix for this. The person also has to be receptive. I knew what motivated this employee (being promoted), so I used that motivator as an incentive by explaining how this particular thing could hold her back without saying she was doing anything wrong.
Anon
The split second I read “bossiness” I knew it would be followed by “she.”
This is never a word used in feedback to male workers. It has been studied.
Don’t use this word. And make sure there’s not an element of sexism here where the same actions coming from a male would not be considered so offensive.
Anon
+1 million.
BeenThatGuy
This is great perspective. I just got of a 1 on 1 with a male direct report. After reading this post, if he was a woman, I would have absolutely described him as bossy (in my mind). Thank you for pointing this out so I reframe my thinking!
Anon
Thank you for taking this in a non defensive way. In case you are interested, other words used as negatives in performance reviews of women and not men are “aggressive” and “abrasive.” In fact, aggressive is sometimes used as a positive in men’s performance appraisals, but never women’s.
I went through management training on this and it’s all based on studies. I am on mobile – I can try to find a link and post it later. It might be easily Googleable.
I was collecting (my) peer feedback for my direct reports’ performance appraisals, and one of my male coworkers told me my female staff member was bossy. I asked if her peer David was also bossy, and my colleague said David was direct but not bossy. I think they’re two sides of the same coin.
Anon
https://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/
Ellen
I think we as women need to avoid the “bossy” mantra. We are assertive (or outspoken) and that is a good thing. I do notice that the young Gen Z women are very outspoken and not afraid to pipe up on every issue, even where they have no experience or points of reference. We have to be gentle with them because their parents have instilled a sense of “you can say/do anything, and it will be right” (even if it is wrong!). It is their parents that need to be retrained, as they’ve failed to be on an even keel when it comes to their kids, who have now joined the work force, and must be reckoned with for the next 30 years, long after we retire. We need them to fund our Social Security retirements, so let’s be nice to them even when they are dumb.
Bonnie Kate
This is a good point on word usage. I actually really agree with you in general on the term. I used it hastily to try and describe a situation, and it was lazy wording.
I will think on if there is an element of sexism in this situation. I do seriously think about sexism in my workplace and my male-dominated industry a lot since many, many times I am the only woman in industry meetings, conferences, events. My immediate reaction is that isn’t the case here, the support employee who has been here the least amount of time should not be assigning or critiquing the top level owners/employees work, and they’re justified in their annoyance. She’s been here six months and I do see a long-time role for her here where she can advance to higher roles and that’s why I really want to coach her to enable this success.
Anon
I have a link to an article on this topic in m0d but it’s Fortune Performance Review Gender Bias if you want to search for it
Curious
Amazon teaches managers to give feedback in situation-behavior-impact format, because specifics are much more actionable. They also recommend asking the employee first to see if they’ve already picked up that something is odd. So “hey Tom, how do you think your relationship with Vibha’s team is going?” “Oh they are bothering me, they never plan tasks in time”. “Got it. Why do you think that is?…I wanted to make you aware of something. When you sent this email to Vibha, you gave a direct criticism to a person of higher rank and specified how to solve it. The email stated that Vibha hadn’t conducted sprint planning and told her to do that by tomorrow. You also cc’d Vibha’s boss, who was actually the one who told her to wait on planning. This made you look out of touch to Vibha and her boss, which means they’re less likely to do the things we need them to do in the future.” (Pause, let them absorb. A good employee will be like oh shit, what can I do better? And then you can brainstorm.)
Anon
Yes! You need to use SPECIFICS. Also, make sure to give her an example of what a good piece of communication would look like in that instance.
I had a direct report that needed work on her written communication with the business. The tone wasn’t the issue – her emails wordy and hard to follow. I picked a few pieces of communication, pointed out the errors, talked through the issues, and made suggestions. Then, when she came across similar circumstances she ran the email past me before sending it out. This sounds like a lot of work but it only took a few weeks to completely turned the issue around. She grew in her role and became an excellent communicator in those situations because of the exercise.
Anon
I would let her know there have been complaints and then focus on action. It may not be appropriate at all for her to be assigning work to certain people so that just shouldn’t happen. For people to whom it is appropriate for her to assign work, work with her to figure out what’s going on in the communication so she can be more successful. You sound like you want her to stay and do well so be really clear about that and hopefully things can improve.
Anon
This is called “delegating up.” It’s when a junior person tries to put the task or part of the task back onto the more senior person. Not allowed.
Anonymous
Can we talk about massages and communication? I just got out of a 90 minute Swedish massage, I requested “deep pressure” on the paperwork, told masseuse in person I needed deep pressure, and piped up once early on during the massage to say the supremely lame “you could use more pressure if you want!”
and at best I feel moisturized. (I tipped her 20% anyway.) Help me use my words here… (also, can anyone compare a chiro to a masseuse? never been, not sure if by “deep pressure on my back” in my head I’m actually wanting my back to be cracked or (like walked on?))
Anon
“You could use more pressure If you want” is not a request for more pressure. Just say directly “I would like more pressure, please.” Repeat again and again until they’re using the right amount of pressure.
But also Swedish massage is generally the gentlest kind of massage. You might want to try deep tissue massage or Thai massage next time.
Anons
At a recent massage I asked the guy to use more pressure and he told me that Swedish massage, which is what I bought, is by definition, light pressure. I was irritated at the time. But now I know to purchased deep pressure, if that’s what I want.
Anon
I don’t know, if you can’t say “I would like more pressure” you might be beyond help.
anon
Oooh an anon who has a strong opinion about your worthiness – how unique!
Monday
+1. Super hot take from our most trusted authority.
Anon
They should have known what you were asking for, but it sounds like it just wasn’t a great massage. Maybe find someone else that offers deep tissue massages and ask for very firm pressure. Swedish massage is typically lighter and some places have different price tiers depending on pressure.
Anon
Could be you want to see a physical therapist who does bodywork? They will definitely brutalize your back if that’s what you need.
No Face
You just have to say “more pressure.” You can be kind and direct at the same time, I promise!
I also need deep tissue, and I specifically choose deep tissue massages and tell the therapist at the beginning that I like really deep pressure.
Also, I only get massages at places that have a new agey, wellness sort of vibe. I don’t go to luxurious relaxation type places.
Anonymous
This was just a bad massage. Not everything is a communications problem. Just don’t use this person again.
Formerly DC
I think the issue is that you were signed up for a Swedish massage when you wanted deep tissue or sports massage. I fully agree with the poster who said she doesn’t go to lux spas for this. Neither do I. I find that independent therapists are the best for excellent deep tissue massages and their prices are generally better. You can find these people through other people who work in the wellness industry such as yoga teachers, pilates instructors, chiros, etc. Or post your location and someone may have a rec.
Anonymous
This is why I only get deep tissue
Monday
Yes. I also need a very firm massage, and have rejected several LMTs after seeing them once for just not using enough pressure. You have to communicate directly but also be willing to audition several people before you find the right person. (I believe more pressure means a harder job for them, and not everyone wants to or can do it?)
Anon
Agree that the problem might well be what you booked. I know some massage therapists who will only do Swedish or charge more for deep tissue because it is harder on their hands and wrists.
If you want your back cracked, go to a medical professional. If you want to feel like someone is walking on your back, book a deep tissue or sports massage.
Anon
Re: your question about chiro vs. a LMT, I have generally found that getting adjusted at the chiro gave me the results I was looking for from the massage, and for a lot less money and time (my insurance covers it so it’s $9, but I think its not much more without insurance). Caveat that I’m very skeptical of chiros in general and their ability to treat actual medical conditions, but for the occasional kink in my neck, it really helps.
Bonnie Kate
+1 my chiro is great for adjustments in my neck, back and hips. Definitely not for sickness, but for body issues he’s told. Totally different that a massage therapist though.
+1 to chiro
My understanding is that chiro treats joints, massage treats muscles. I go to the chiropractor semi-regularly and it’s an immediate difference in my movement, particularly in my neck and shoulders. It’s usually a quick appointment <30 minutes with very targeted adjustments. I'm usually sore for a day or so and then I feel MUCH better. Some indicators that I need an adjustment: I can't properly square up to do squats or planks, like one foot is noticeably in front of the other and that's what feels "square" to me. I can't get comfortable on my pillow because my neck is stiff, and it feels like it's pinching throughout the day.
I recently had several rounds of adjustments after a minor accident, and we're getting to the point where my muscles are tightening up around my joints so that they won't move. The chiro recommended some massages and stretching to loosen things up before I come back for more adjustments.
Anon
I basically won’t allow chiros to work on my joints (I don’t trust them with hypermobility), but they do offer soft tissue therapy. I see one for active release therapy/Graston technique which has been a hundred times better for my typing-related tendonitis than the wrist braces and exercises my PT offered. (I think a better PT would have done similar soft tissue therapy though!) I find Graston too painful for tightness in my back, but manual soft tissue work helps me.
Anon
First world problem. My husband has a conference in San Juan over a holiday weekend this summer. I can go too, for just the cost of my plane ticket. But for some reason I’m really not feeling it. I love swimming and beaches, but the hotel (in Miramar) looks to be over a mile from the nearest beach and I hate walking around in hot weather. I don’t think I would want the hassle of renting a car and dealing with parking stress. So I kind of feel like I’m going to be bored. But then I feel dumb for turning down a cheap trip to the Caribbean. Anyone want to tell me I should go or give me permission to stay at home?
Fwiw, I have been to PR (San Juan and Fajardo) before and didn’t love it, but I wasn’t in charge of planning that trip and I think it was kind of poorly planned. I did think the beaches were underwhelming compared to Hawaii and other parts of the Caribbean I’ve been to.
Anon
You know you didn’t love it before, you’re not feeling excited about it now, this seems like a no brainer. You do not have to go just because it’s cheap.
Bonnie Kate
What’s the hotel like where you’d be staying? If it has good amenities, it’s a no brainer – go. If it looks like there’s a nice pool and spa, I’d definitely go and just plan on doing that. If there’s a nice looking pool, I’d probably go and just load up on books. If it’s pretty basic looking, I might skip it.
Anon
It has a pool, but no spa. Overall it looks kind of basic and I think that’s a big part of why I’m so meh on the trip. Agreed though that there are definitely worse ways to spend a long weekend than reading by the pool! I think part of it is that I’d be leaving my kid at home and I feel guilty about doing that if all I’m going to be doing is reading by the pool.
Anon
Oh, AND a kid at home? Then I’d say the logistics of making this work are not worth a meh experience. Stay home with no regrets.
Anon
The logistics of the kid are actually pretty simple. We have local grandparents she stays with. They all enjoy it.
No Face
I love travel and tag along with my husband. My husband doesn’t like travel and I do work trips alone.
If you don’t want to go, you have my permission to skip! I personally love reading by a hotel pool, so I would be happy just doing that.
Anon
Don’t go. Husbands are under no such pressure to accompany their wives on trips, I can tell you that much!
Anon
what about staying in a different hotel ? just because the block of rooms is in one place you don’t have to stay there.
alternatively reach out to a travel agent to ask about ideas?
Anon
My husband is the co-organizer so he has to stay in the conference hotel and I’m not interested in paying for a separate hotel room elsewhere.
Anon
hmm, does he really have to stay there or just be the face of the conference? When I travel for work, there’s always the “company place to stay” but it’s not like anyone polices where you actually go. If he can get reimbursed for his travel, just stay somewhere else & he can sneak out at the end of the events and go back to good hotel where you are.
as you can probably tell from this, I love a trip, but mostly because I love a good hotel & a weekend of staying somewhere tropical with a pool, some magazines, maybe a spa sounds heavenly. alternatively to staying somewhere better, instead of hassling w the beach, go book a spa appointment at a nice resort & spend your day there.
I would go!
Anon
I think it’s unreasonable for the co-organizer of a conference to stay in a different hotel because their spouse, who has nothing to do with the conference and no conference-related reason to be there, wants a better hotel for their weekend vacation. It’s first and foremost a work trip.
Anon
Yeah, Anon at 4:31 is right. It’s not a large corporate event where no one would notice his absence. It’s an academic workshop with less than 50 participants, everyone attending is staying in the conference hotel and will be hanging out and working in the evenings and conference breaks. It would be extremely weird for my husband to stay elsewhere just because his wife wanted a fancy hotel.
Also he can only reimburse the conference hotel group rate which is like $160/night. So it’s not like we could stay at a fancy hotel for free anyway.
Anon
Yeah, hard disagree with staying elsewhere. As a conference organizer, if he didn’t stay at the hotel he either likely picked or the perception would be that he endorsed, if he stayed elsewhere it would have a real “good enough for you, but not for me” ickiness to it.
If he was just an attendee that would be different.
(I could see maybe if we were talking about a couple of generic different big brand hotels in a generic big city and he wanted to stay where he had status or something, and no one would really care, but not in a tropical location where the hotel difference would be better location/amenities/vacation feel).
Ellen
No that would not be right. The husband would be worrying about both his business and his wife, and rightly so. Unaccompanied but married women are often viewed by the locals as fair game for quickies, even if the hubby is working closeby at a neighboring hotel.
I love Puerto Rico, but only when I can have a week at a nice beach with a pina colada. Not a working weekend. That is no fun anyway, with or without hubby.
Anonymous
Personally, I would book the kid with the grandparents and have a staycation at home or take the flight cost and go to a hotel elsewhere if you won’t relax at home.
anon
Oh, this sounds nice!!! I love traveling, but my dream in life is to be alone in my house.
anon
THIS!!!
Anonymous
Agree – skip the trip, send kid to grandparents, and spend the time at home or the cost of your flight on a staycation Airbnb or fancy hotel near you. Depending on how long the trip is, you could also go for just a couple days but same advice re kid and staycation.
Anon
I would not go based on how you describe it and your lack of enthusiasm.
This might not be a popular opinion, and there are exceptions, but in general I dislike mixing business trips with bringing along others (both as the business traveler and as the one coming along). I know there’s this pull of feeling like there’s this free hotel opportunity, but it still costs a decent amount of money for the plane ticket etc. and the whole mood for both parties I think is off. I would rather save that money and spend it on a true vacation where everyone is in vacation mode. (But my business trips are usually somewhat stressful where I need to be super “on” so maybe that influences this).
LittleLaw
I’ll be the voice of descent here and just ask if you’re feeling blah about it because you’re exhausted and blah in general now (winter, pandemic, etc) but when it actually happened, if you’d enjoy a weekend of sun, quiet, pool, and a general change of pace? I know I can drag my feet on planning trips when the thought just feels… exhausting, but once they came up, I’m always happy I chose the trip over another normal weekend at home. Just good for thought.
Anon
Thanks, I’m definitely exhausted and blah right now due to the pandemic and winter, so I’ll keep this in mind.
Anonymous
TLDR: How do you tell the difference between normal annoyances/idiosyncrasies/inefficiencies in a workplace and one that has an unacceptable level of disfunction?
Longer version: I spent the first decade of my career in law firms, and I attributed a lot of the workplace disfunction to the fact that I was in a law firm. I thought moving in-house to a F500 company with properly trained managers and professional HR would make things a lot better. In reality, I am dealing with inefficient processes, coworkers that cannot be relied on to read their emails, disorganized meetings, higher ups that act very elitist, etc. No one thing is that bad but there’s enough low level friction every day that I’m thinking of leaving. However, if this is all par for the course, I will reframe my thinking and stick with it.
MND
Are you noticing the same or a similar set of annoyances in-house that you did at biglaw? That’s be a strong sign that it may be your expectations are off versus the environment. I was in biglaw at two different firms, and I’m now in house, and each has its own unique set of frustrations … for better or worse.
Anonymous
+1. People are people.
anon
I have yet to work anywhere that doesn’t have some level of dysfunction, but the inefficiencies and passing the “not my “job attitude when it is in fact their job. drives me batty. I think most companies have all of this, but it certainly is in varying degrees. I actually lol’d at your professional HR comment. Our gigantic and well compensated HR function is awful. I find them utterly useless. It’s so bad it’s funny. Also experience all the other things you’ve listed at my organization which wins multiple types of best place to work and other publicly touted awards. So yea. Some if this is par for the course, but you can decide your level of price of admission. I gave my current employer 7 years and multiple roles and I’m leaving for what I hope is greener pastures!
Cat
just because you spelled it that way twice – it’s dysfunction, not disfunction.
There are good and bad managers and coworkers everywhere. Your expectations for HR should be limited to “accurate pay and nagging you to complete your performance management update.”
Anonymous
You walk into a full bar with an expert mixologist. You can ask them to make you ANYTHING. What do you ask for?
Anonymous
A perfectly chilled New Zealand Sauvignon blanc :)
Anonymous
Id ask them to make me a mock tail with ingredients almost any bar would have- but it must not include club soda or ginger ale.
Anon
Clamato Caesar with asparagus and hot sauce
Anonymous
I love a well-made Aviation.
An Army & Navy is great, too.
Both are based on gin, and requires the bar to have some very specific ingredients, Creme de Violette violet liqueur for the Aviation or L’Orgeat Almond Liqueur for the A&N.
Both are spirit heavy, complex and not particularly sweet.
Anon
In that case, I would ask them to surprise me with anything vodka or rum based. They know way more than I do!
pugsnbourbon
Similar – I’d tell them I love old fashioneds and see what they can make me based on that.
Anonymous
Same, only with bourbon :)
Unsub
A Sidecar. Delicious and potent – I only need one.
London (formerly NY) CPA
A perfect dirty gin martini. Yum!
Beta Grad
I’m a bit too stressed about this, but work social issues? Two new joiners on my team (X and Y) are dating, but X is also flirting with Z and they’re all semi-unemployed (Consulting company, they’re on the bench). I spent a bunch of time with them last week, and as they’re so disruptive, I didn’t finish my work and I’ll have about 5 hours more of work to do just today (Saturday).
Would it be too rude to just not go on their coffee breaks and sit with other people on my team (all who are as busy as I am) instead? Or also work in another office where a bunch of other people on my team work some of the time (distributed team, based across two cities, and I live in between them)?
Cat
maybe I’m missing why you are worried about *not* spending more time with this trio, but if you want to keep some contact without getting sucked into hours-long chats, I’d do something like “oh sure I’ll walk with you to grab a coffee, but I need to take it to-go so I can finish Deliverable X.” And then sit with your coffee in an area where you can focus.
Beta Grad
That sounds like an amazing idea – thank you! I will try that the next time I’m in the office.
It’s basically just that I don’t want to risk appearing as rude or stand-offish, you know? If they’re slagging each other off to me and others, it’s logical that they could do the same about me. Also, FOMO – knowing that other people are having a fun time at a cafe outside the office whilst you’re working like mad alongside a bunch of other stressed folks isn’t the funnest.
Anon
But isn’t missing 5 hours of a Saturday way less fun than some cafe visit with people that it sounds like you don’t even like?
Anon
I have zero qualms with not going on coffee breaks with coworkers, so if you need permission there you have it. I find that to be a bigger time suck than it sounds and I really only drink coffee at specific times of day that generally do not coordinate well with these breaks.
Anonymous
It’s not actually about the coffee though. I hate taking time for these things, but truly I’ve found it pays off in the long run. It helps for networking a ton–folks remember you more fondly when they move on to other jobs. You also tend to hear things through the grapevine that prove helpful that would otherwise be missed. And sometimes you just realize that you actually like your coworkers more than you realized. I wouldn’t go to every coffee and I’d probably skip out after a few minutes using work as an excuse. But just showing you are open to being social is an important “soft skill” for succeeding on many teams. Now that I’m remote full time, I realize how much I miss some of these meetings for feeling more connected.
Anon
Eh. I’m the person your responding to. I’m 20+ years into my career, pretty successful at it, I think generally well liked, and got my current job purely from my network. I make up for not doing the whole frequent coffee thing by being friendly/chatty in the halls or post meetings when appropriate, making a real effort to always do the occasional happy hours, etc. etc. Not that I don’t EVER go to coffee, but it is more of an intentional, like, schedule a time to catch up with someone specific and then getting coffee is the natural thing to do while discussing whatever we wanted to catch up on. In non-COVID this happens maybe once every couple of months. But miss me with the regular 10 am or 2 pm coffee or whatever where I have no desire to drink (and therefore spend money on) coffee and the 20-30 minutes this takes is now 20-30 minutes I have to leave later to get my sh#t done.