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Updated: Jul 15, 2022 183 Comments · by

Weekend Open Thread

Weekend Open Thread |

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Comments

  1. Emma

    I think I posted too late in the morning thread, so reposting here:

    My MIL has a sadness to her and doesn’t sleep well ever. My DH says she is constantly worrying and stuck in the past because her husband has been unfaithful for over 20 years. She is a very soft person and was devastated when she first found out, but she has stayed with him due to their cultural/societal norms (more conservative).

    I’ve only ever been cheated on once, but I remember being an absolute mess and having it keep me up at night for months. I’d assumed that she’d healed since it’s been so long, but spending more time with her and talking to DH makes it seem like there is still something weighing on her at all times.

    Is it possible to have heartbreak last that long if you stay with the person that causes it? Or even just heartbreak around your life not materializing the way you wanted it to?

    I always thought either things change or your feelings about it do – it breaks my heart if she’s just constantly in that state of mourning and stress.

      • Emma

        That’s so sad. Did she still have the jealousy/heartbreak feelings years later? I can’t imagine living with that for so long.

    • Anon

      Help her get out. I’m serious. You get one life. This is a horrible way to live it year after year. Be the subversive force for good.

      • Anonymous

        +1 help her escape, idk why your DH is just cool with his dad cheating on his mom for 20 years

      • Emma

        That’s the goal. She’s staying with us for three months, but any longer than that would be hard due to visa issues (they’re not from US). It’s not really possible to convince someone to leave, unfortunately, and DH can only show sympathy, since saying “this is horrible, you have to leave” knowing that she doesn’t have that option currently wouldn’t be kind.

        • Anonymous

          As an immigration attorney, if your husband is a citizen, she may have options to stay here with your husband’s assistance. If that’s something she might be even remotely interested in, consult with an immigration attorney about the specifics of the situation so you can present it to her as an option.

      • anon

        Even if you do not help her escape, still be an escape for her. By this, I mean go do things with her independently of your FIL. If you have that sort of relationship, consider taking a class together or some other activity that can help her be less isolated and have a life outside of FIL. And, if your DH and you are willing to do it, have your DH tell her that you will provide a landing place for her – e.g., you can leave dad and you will not be homeless. But, remember that ultimately this is her choice and you have to let her make it. My grandparents had a rocky marriage and very much lived in separate parts of the house (literally) and in their old age very much came back around to enjoying doing things together and relying on each other.

    • Anon

      I think so. I would feel this way if I loved him and felt rejected. If he were my #1, but I was never his, forever? That sounds rough and would be true again, every day.

    • Anon

      I responded on the morning thread. It is very hard to understand how toxic that culture is without living in it. My heart breaks for your MIL.

    • Anon

      Absolutely. And honestly I can imagine a world where FIL might be emotionally abusive toward her as well. My grandfather was emotionally abusive, and my grandmother didn’t have many friends outside the marriage. Similarly came from a place and time where it was even harder to support yourself as a divorced mother and not really socially acceptable to divorce. She was for sure depressed all the time for the later years of her life.

      I feel very sad for your MIL.

      • Emma

        Gosh, that’s so sad. It really is crazy how much women have to go through when they don’t have any means for independence.

        FIL presents as very kind and jovial, but DH told me a story about how when MIL was too close with a male friend (he was her only person to confine in), FIL had the male friend put into jail for a night and banned him from the house moving forward. FIL is a public figure and very powerful in the community, whereas MIL’s whole life is to be his wife. Awful that FIL could go around taking women on weekend getaway trips without even having to admit to it when confronted, whereas MIL can’t even have a platonic male friend.

    • anon

      I feel incredibly sorry for your MIL. It is no way to live. And if you’re life revolves around family and making things happen for your son and husband, what she’s been through (is still going through) is horrible and soul-crushing.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t understand how she is “stuck in the past” if the cheating is still going on. Does your husband expect his mother just to accept it as part of her reality and move on? If so, he is part of the problem and you had better be on your guard in your own marriage.

  2. Plans

    How do you think about long-term relationship life planning in general when you’re pretty nonplussed about how the next two decades are looking?

    Independent of the relationship, I need to figure out my five year plan.

    SO just wants to know we’re planning together so he can come along for the ride no matter what I decide and has already demonstrated immense flexibility toward finding ways to conform to what I want. Only hills he’s dying on are that 1. He’s frugal and has to put away as much as possible for retirement which may come earlier in life than preferred (disability on an uncertain deterioration timeline) 2. Wants to be able to save for a $3-4k vacation once every 1-2 years without eating into other savings goals.

    While I don’t get excited thinking about us in the everyday we’re currently in because the things around it are unpleasant, but our time with each other is generally fulfilling and I think we’ll make a vibrant pair once we’re both past 40.

    It’s been hard to talk about and brainstorm what a fulfilling future could look like with peers who — all in somewhat lackluster relationships of their own — seem vicariously concerned on my behalf over the prospect of me being “too committed” to my now 5+ year relationship? It seems an odd bone to pick when every source of my angst and turmoil over these past two years and dread over the future can be tangibly tied back to some combination of future economic anxiety or past traumas exacerbated by circumstances unrelated to the relationship, so it doesn’t really track when people want to pin all my malaise on it.

    • No Face

      This was pretty confusing to read, but what stood out to me is that you talk about angst and turmoil, economic anxiety, trauma, malaise, etc. Those are some pretty big, negative concepts. Are they all about your relationship with your SO? Because then you should follow up with your friends about why they are concerned and really listen. This may not be the right relationship.

      Why are you forcing yourself to make a 5 year plan that you aren’t excited about for a relationship that sounds pretty stressful and sad?

    • Emma

      It sounds like there are a few things going on. One is that you’re trying to figure out how to plan for the future when you are feeling a bit dejected about it all. Another is that you’re trying to plan what you want from this relationship specifically. For the relationship planning, do you mean marriage/kids? Or like we want to live in X place together with X type of house? If your partner is really that flexible, it sounds like any non-marriage/kids decisions are really just “planning what I want to do with my life” and not really relationship planning. Which is great – you can do anything!

      Why are you feeling stressed about longterm planning? What would you say is the core thing you’re asking about in this question? Are you having some doubts about your relationship? It sounds like there is a general malaise you’re feeling that is kind of bleeding into everything.

    • Sorry if this seems basic

      I’m not sure I understand your question, but I think you’re right that you need to figure out your five year plan, independent of your relationship. Do you want a promotion? A new job? To go back to school for a career change? To buy a house? To move to a different state? To have kids? To visit xyz country? To be xyz years away from retirement? To have no debt and live a simpler life? Is there some big life event you can predict will hinder your plans? How is your health? Your parents health?
      Now that you have that picture, does it look better or worse with your partner by your side? If you think staying with him will make you happier than the alternative (be that staying single or finding someone new), do you want to get married? When would that ideally fit in within your goals?
      Obviously life won’t go according to plan, but if you have a general direction, you can work towards it and figure out what is his role in it, assuming he’s really that flexible and his deal breakers work for you (they seem really reasonable to me, and like something that might assuage your money anxiety).

    • anon

      Huh? I have no idea what you’re trying to get at. You want to be with this guy or not? And something about trying to save money? Something took about the next decade or two being blah but then you’ll be happy after you’re 40?

    • anonshmanon

      I didn’t follow all of that, but are you putting off happiness for the next two decades? What gives you the certainty that you’ll be a vibrant pair once you are both past 40?? I don’t know if you need to change your partner or something else in your life, but please don’t give up on creating a fulfilling life in the here and now!

    • Allie

      If you’re not a vibrant pair now it highly highly unlikely you will be a vibrant pair in your 40s.

      • anon

        Srsly. Things get very real in your 40s. You aren’t going to magically become vibrant unless you’re actively working toward it, and recognize that there will be a lot of factors working against you in middle age.

    • Anonymous

      Omg Re read this and then break up with him. Idk why or what the problem is but you clearly don’t even like him.

    • Madrid

      it sounds like you’re not thrilled with the state of the world OR your relationship – like sure, not every day is “exciting” but I can’t imagine saying I hope my husband and I become vibrant in the future?! What about turning 40 makes you think that will magically improve?

    • Allie

      Is this an oblique way of saying you’re dating a dude who’s into FIRE and it’s not for you? Because FIRE is DEFINITELY not for me. So that’s valid to me.

    • Julia

      Life can get way, way harder in your forties, unless you choose to be the type of person who has an abundant mindset and develops healthy coping mechanisms. There isn’t any arrival point for life or point where it magically gets easy and tied-together – you’re in it and this is what it is. Treat today as the template you want to live the rest of your life by.

      It sounds like you’re miserable, quite frankly. Whether or not it’s tied to the relationship, you are the only person who has the power to change it. Regardless of what you’ve been through or what you think the coming years have in store, you have the power to determine how you think/feel about your life. It’s not going to get magically better, and even if you have valid reasons to feel scared, you have to think about what you actually want. Do you want to be happy, irrespective of your circumstances? Or do you want to be depressed and hopeless (even if you feel like you have the best reason for being so)?

      • Plans

        I was unaware — but feel free to explain its proper use if you want, I’m curious. /gen

        • Anon

          It’s one of those words like inflammable that has two opposite meanings. It can mean either 1) bewildered, perplexed, confused etc or 2) unfazed, unperturbed etc – basically the opposite of the first meaning. I think the latter was originally a misuse but has become so common it’s accepted usage now. It doesn’t mean unhappy or unenthusiastic which I think is how you were using it.

    • Anon

      I didn’t even understand this post. Maybe articulate your question clearly …?

      • Plans

        This post was the result of too many re-writes. I got so caught up trying to articulate what I had written I forgotten what I had taken out then forgot to add back in. I’ll make a more coherent post probably sometime in the future, though the replies on this one were still exceedingly helpful, considering the scatterbrained material repliers had to work with.

        • Plans

          *I had forgotten – to think I work with words for a living (I think my brain has decided to give up letting me put them together in the right order unless I’m getting paid).

  3. Anon

    Happy weekend everyone.

    The post this morning from Madrid about not wanting to stand in line more than 10 seconds for breakfast made me laugh.

    There are a few hot breakfast spots in my area (Bay Area) where people will wait around for an hour for a table. I do not understand. I’m way too grumpy in the morning for this, and it’s not because I’m an Old now. My friend group would do this in my 20s and after the first such experience I just refused to join them.

    Do you stand in line for breakfast out? What makes it worth it to you?

    • Anon

      I can only go out for second breakfast. I’ve always been an early bird and hungry as soon as I get up, so I eat breakfast at 5:30 and can then go out at 10 for a second meal (this is usually when I eat lunch anyway!). Even when we stay in hotels with continental breakfasts, they often don’t start early enough for us, because we like to get an early start on outdoorsy things, so I’ve learned to always pack food. Luckily my husband is the same way, though he cares more about coffee first thing.

    • Anon

      Yes but usually sit down breakfasts out are late enough that I’ve already had coffee and maybe even a light snack. Usually I wake up between 7-8:30 on weekends, but my friends don’t really do breakfast before 10, so that would give me plenty of time to have coffee.

      I also don’t like that eat first thing – I wake up around 6, workout, do some grad school HW, get ready, commute to work (30 min walk), get to the office around 9 (having had 1-2 cup of coffee), but then eat at my desk around 9:30/10

    • Anon

      I do sometimes, but I view it as a social event rather than a meal experience. Like I’ll eat a snack before leaving or have a snack in my purse in case I get hungry and then use the time in line to catch up. I also have recently started doing this thing where I’ll take my book to the restaurant 30 mins before everyone else and put my name on the list, then read til they get there. I get quiet time, and we eat earlier!

    • anon

      I will not wait for a table for breakfast. Lately, I’ve insisted on breakfast/brunch spots that take reservations or neighborhood places that I know will have tables available. They’re either not the trendiest spots, or we’re going earlier than the brunch crowd.

    • Madrid

      lol, that was me.

      I only go out for brunch or second breakfast so I’m not a hangry beast in line.

      I do not go into public before I’ve had coffee and a little something – a high-protein yogurt and a handful of cereal being my usual.

      • Anon

        OP here. I met a friend for breakfast Monday at 8 am. He was in town for meetings and it was the only time he had available. I knew it was one of those places but I thought Monday 8 am might be a reasonably empty time, even if it was unreasonably early for me (and yeah, it was my first breakfast so that probably didn’t help).

        The line was 20+ minutes. And people were being stupid. It was one of those places where you stand in line to order, get a number, and they bring the food to you. So the line to order was 10+ people, but even so it shouldn’t have taken that long. The problem was, not one person had even though about what they might like to order by the time they got to the front of the line, despite all of the food being displayed in cases along the line they waited in, despite the large sign above the cashier with all of the options written on it in bold writing. After the first two people I made a game of seeing whether even one single person knew what they wanted to order when they got to the cashier, and nope.

        8 am on a Monday was definitely too early for me to deal with this, but I don’t think 10 am on a Sunday, with a line three times as long, would have been any better.

        • Anonymous

          I don’t put up with lines more than 5 minutes long ever unless the food is truly legendary, waiting in line is part of the whole adventure, and I’ve had a snack beforehand. For ordinary food I am making a reservation, ordering on line for pickup, or going somewhere else with no line.

    • Anonymous

      I will wait in line for breakfast. However, my caveat is that the place serving breakfast also MUST have very good coffee. I’m not about to wait to eat only to have it ruin by crappy coffee. I have found many places that have good breakfast food don’t have good coffee, and it is then I do not understand why people wait to dine at these places. My husband also has the same coffee rule, and a second rule that a place must be able to make over-medium eggs. That is the hill he will absolutely die on. This limits the number of places in our area to exactly 2, both of which get crowded quickly, so we rarely go.

      • Anon

        I am OP and I am also an over-medium person. For most restaurants that means barely over-easy, with boogery egg whites, or basically a hard cooked egg on a plate. It’s frustrating!

    • Anon 2.0

      I firmly believe there are two types of people in life – those obsessed with breakfast and those who are happy with a Nutrigrain bar. I fall into the latter camp myself but grew up in an “omg! breakfast!!!!” family. I have a personal rule to never eat breakfast food after 11:59am. Ever.

      • Anon

        haha Nutrigrain bars were my pregnancy breakfasts when I couldn’t handle the thought of anything else…. I’m also an egg person, but I need to be awake for at least an hour before eggs. I have never been and will never be a pancake or waffle person.

      • Anon

        I’m not much into breakfast, but love breakfast for dinner (waffles and an omelette) when we are too tired to cook anything substantial.

    • anonshmanon

      I won’t stand in line for any meal, for longer than 20 mins. Hangryyy.

    • Anon

      No. I once commented on the moms page that Disney sounded horrible to me because I would hate waiting in line for an hour for everything and someone snippily responded “You must not ever go to restaurants then.” Um, no? I go to restaurants that take reservations or aren’t so popular you have to wait an hour to be seated. It’s not that hard to find places where you don’t have to wait an hour.

    • Anonymous

      Nope, will not stand in line for breakfast. Or brunch.

      I will stand in line for very good sushi, and tiny hole-in-the-wall places with good turnover. But not before 7 pm.

    • Anon

      My friends always wanted to go to line restaurants and it drove me bonkers.

      Now in my 40s I tried to just go to restaurants where you can walk right up and grab a table.

      I’m willing to put my name on a list and kill 20 minutes or a half hour if I can go for a little walk or go grab a drink nearby, but the idea of queuing for an hour so that I can pay someone too cook my food boggles my mind. I go to restaurants because the food is great but also because it’s convenient to have someone else cook my food. All due respect to restaurants that can garner such a following, of course, but I will happily eat somewhere less trendy or just cook at home. I’m also not that much of a foodie so I’m sure that contributes to my perspective.

      • Anon

        Oh god I just reread my comment. Apologies for the army of typos — I was voice texting while chasing the toddler.

  4. Auntie M

    A low stakes question for me (who is child free by choice) but as a dedicated aunt (by blood and adoption) I was wondering so thought I would ask you ladies:

    (1) If you have children (or hope to have children), how do you define “success” for parenting. And be real! My mother would SAY she wants me to be happy. What she actually wanted was for me to go to an Ivy League school and be rich and successful in an “approved” field (law was barely acceptable; she would have preferred medicine or engineering). And then she wanted me to marry someone of our ethnic heritage and have 2 children (and is deeply disappointed on that front.) If you answer it would be helpful to know whether you have children and how old they are.

    and

    (2) How much do you think that success is related to what parents do or don’t do? My friends’ kids are getting to the age I can start getting a sense of how they are turning out and honestly it is not what I expected.

    This was sparked by dinner with a friend and her recent college graduate daughter. The daughter was aways well-behaved and polite – but I would have put money on her not being particularly hard working or successful.She is the absolute light of her parents’ lives and I thought she was sweet but hopelessly spoiled. I would have been wrong and she now has her dream job at an incredibly prestigious employer that she got through her own merits (she got an introduction to someone through a friend of a friend of one of her professors and then wowed them so much over coffee that they basically pulled strings to get her the internship that led to the job). It turns out she is not only charming and well-spoken but also remarkably proactive and responsible. And I am seeing some failure to launch and lack of direction among kids of friends who were raised with higher expectations and more disciple and who are now in their early/mid 20s.

    Thoughts?

    • Anon

      I want my kids to be neurosurgeons or at least some sort of orthopedic surgeon. Not law — too easy to wind up with a ton of debt and a job that pays $50K with no benefits.

      I would be fine with my nieces and nephews and any grandchildren being happy.

      Joking, sort of, but until they are off your payroll, they are on your payroll and my payroll is not unlimited. It’s ultimately more for their benefit than for mine, as how happy will they be if they are on a twin bed in my house at age 35? So my aim for them is financial stability, as I find that if I am financially stable, I am content and happy and if I have financial instabilty (i.e., mom depends on dad for $, dad is such a bad child support payer that his wages get garnished and then he quits that job and takes another with no garnishment order, rinse, repeat).

    • Anon

      My thoughts are you’re just looking for ways to judge people on their parenting.

      • startup lawyer

        lol yea i was like interesting question until i got to the context paragraph

        • Anon

          Having kids is a humbling experience, and you realize more and more that very little of how they turn out has to do with parenting, and most of it has to do with their DNA. Personality is nature, not nurture.

          • Anonymous

            woof, it so is. I have 3 kids and one was just born with completely different wiring. It’s not good or bad, it’s just the generic opposite of me in every personality way (which is hilarious bc she looks just like me) I joke to my husband that she’s like the Wario to my Mario (or vice versa).

      • anon

        Yep. But for whatever it’s worth, I do think some kids burn out early if they’ve been under too much pressure from their parents. Who knows, though. I’ll admit that your paragraph raised my hackles, because I had an aunt and uncle who saw me as not bright enough and spoiled because I didn’t do as many chores as their kids were forced to do. They were so surprised when I started doing well as a young adult. /s (Their kids are doing great as well.)

      • Trish

        Really? I got that there is no way to predict how a kid is going to grow up, no matter how they were raised. This is what I know. My husband and I took the ACEs quiz online and we both scored fairly high. I am a 4-5, and he is 6-7. Our grown son’s score is 0-1. Success.

    • Anonymous

      I’ll answer this from the perspective of my mom.

      I moved out at 17, obtained a degree, earned a very prestigious job, bought a house, and got married all on my own. My mom is so proud of me, like beaming. She tells all her friends and anyone who will listen about how her daughter wrote that policy they’re reading about in the news. She also brags to her friends about how I bought a house without their help. I’m childfree and tbh I think it’s a relief for her since she didn’t really want to be a mom, it’s just what women of her generation did. She’s definitely enjoying her retirement without being a grandma.

      My brother on the other hand has a degree, but has otherwise failed to launch. He lives with my parents, he has a job my mom got him, he doesn’t cook or clean, and he is too financially impulsive to ever purchase a home. Plus he probably won’t ever have a successful relationship either. My mom resents him, she loves him, but she doesn’t like him as a person and it really weighs on her. To compound the issue my brother was the golden child so he got a lot of extra enrichment as a child, none of which paid off.

    • Anonymous

      Read “The Self-Driven Child.”

      My definition of success in parenting is raising a competent, capable adult who is self-supporting, resourceful, and resilient, one who defines and pursues their own goals. Over the years I’ve also come to believe that even the best parenting cannot overcome inborn character flaws and serious mental illness.

    • Anon

      I’ll play. I have an elementary-school age kid and a toddler. My dream for them would be to find a significant other who makes them happy and a career that they find fulfilling and that pays the bills. I also want them to be kind, loving and charitable. By pays the bills, I mean allows them to live a comfortable way and save for retirement. I would hate to see them living under the weight of constant worries about money. I also hope they don’t pursue a career path that doesn’t leave them time for family and life. My older kiddo talks about wanting to be a teacher, and I think that would be a great life for him in our MCOL area. My parents wanted these same things for me. They wanted me to go to college and get a decent job, but there wasn’t any pressure to pursue prestige or outrageous wealth. I am a successful professional in a happy marriage and I don’t know that any additional career or financial success could have made them prouder. They didn’t blink an eye when I left Big Law for something more sustainable. They also wanted me to have children, which I did. I don’t want to put that pressure on my kids.

    • Anon

      1) I want my daughter to be happy, fulfilled, making enough money and working the right number of hours for the life she wants, and off the payroll post college. I truly don’t care if she’s a plumber or a neurosurgeon, but I want her to be financially self-sufficient post college, except for gifts from us (we may choose to give assistance with grad school if she has to pay tuition and we’re in a position to do it without hurting our own retirement goals). I come from a culture (Jewish) and family that is very education and sometimes prestige-focused, fwiw.

      2) I think my daughter is too young for me to really have an opinion about this but generally I think it is easier to mess up kids with inherently “good” traits than to fix inherently kids with inherently “bad” traits. (Don’t like those labels, but not sure what other word to use to convey the general point.)

    • Anon

      I grew up in a super dysfunctional family.

      My goals for my kiddo:
      1. Break the cycle. The cycle might have started with my parents but it ends with me. He will grow up knowing what emotionally healthy households are like and know that he is loved.

      2. Life sucks when you are poor, because being poor is HARD. Making a stable living is a priority; bragging to a bunch of busybodies about my successful son is not.

      3. The best parenting is the parenting that is done for the kid you have. Not the kid you want to have, not the kid you are terrified you will get, the actual child in front of you. “Oh if we spoil our daughter she’s going to be lazy.” Will SHE? “If we don’t push our son he’s going to live in our basement.” Hey my parents did that to me – a super motivated workaholic who didn’t know when to give up – and I had an actual nervous breakdown.

    • Anon

      I want my kids to be happy and financially independent. I think those two things are truly dependent on each other, and I say this as a kid who grew up poor.

    • Auntie M

      Ok to make this clearer:

      I was absolutely low-key judgmental of my friend’s parenting. I mean I obviously never said anything but I thought she was spoiling the kid rotten and not setting her up for success. And I was wrong. Completely, absolutely wrong. So this is not me being judgmental now; it is me recognizing that my own childhood was frankly pretty toxic, that I am bringing that into my judgment of other people’s parenting (wrongly) and being curious about the thoughts of people who did not have parents who made them feel like they were worthless human beings if they did not get into a prestigious university and follow a prestigious career with a six figure income.

    • Greensleeves

      I view my job as a parent as raising children who become independent, functional members of society. If, as adults, they are stable, self-supporting and kind to others, I will be happy. If they are in a relationship, I hope it would be a partnership that makes them happy and makes their life better. I do not see it as my job to ensure, nor do I expect, that they achieve any particular level of career success or career path, or marry, or have children. That is entirely on them and their personal preferences. We have tried to ensure that they have the resources and support they need to achieve as much as they want to pursue and the skills they need to be independent adults, to provide them with an understanding of the trade offs between work/life balance and certain demanding careers, to demonstrate the importance of financial stability and living within your means, and to provide them with a good example of the type of relationship we hope they have if they choose to be partnered. We’ve also made sure they know that they are loved no matter what, and that they can always come to us for help. We’re definitely not perfect. We’ve spoiled them sometimes, set our expectations too high or too low sometimes, and screwed up in various other ways!

      I do think there is a limit to what you can do as a parent. I fully expect one of our kids to take a more winding path to “success” than the others and that’s fine. But I have encountered several parents who do everything for their kids, and/or insulate them from consequences as much as possible, and I don’t think that it will be the kids’ fault in those cases if they struggle to transition to adulthood.

      I have three kids, all teenagers, one in college and two in high school.

    • Janey

      For (2), I think a lot of personality, ambition, drive, common sense, etc. is inherent. But that’s inevitably intertwined with the kind of parents you have – they pass on their genes. But their genes also impact how they parent. And how they parent may impact how you turn out. I guess I’m a determinist to some extent. You can ask yourself, “how would things have turned out differently if they’d parented differently?” but, there was no world in which they would have parented differently. They parented the way they were able to, the way they were always going to.

      For (1), I’m way too superstitious to even answer.

    • Mom23

      I always said I wanted my child (now an adult) to be happy, kind, and able to support herself, but my threshold for supporting herself is probably lower than many of the other people on this list.

      We had several discussions as she was considering careers about how much she was likely to make and what type of life she could afford on that salary but I left the decision to her. She will never make as much as I do – but she will also have a lot less stress. (Although being brutally honest – she will inherit enough to buy a small house or a condo in our HCOL city when she turns 25, which make the discussion a bit different.)

      As for how much influence parents have – I honestly do not know. A lot of her classmates got pushed really hard. Some of them excelled. Some of them collapsed. Some of them picked careers that will make them rich. Some of them picked careers that will leave them poor unless they marry someone higher income. I think that modeling the merits of delayed satisfaction and instilling a realistic sense of the value of money matters, but I am not sure how much difference the day to day monitoring/ insistence on perfect grades/setting up elaborate systems for savings/etc. really matters in the end. In general I think parents believe they have more influence than they really do.

    • anon

      1) Success is about the relationship I have with my grown children. And also, are they genuinely good people of character? Not the external markers you’re talking about.

      2) A parent can steer and guide, but ultimately, people are who they are. Including children and young adults. Parents have influence for sure, but it is foolish to think that parents have total control over how their children turn out.

    • Anonymous

      I’m child-free, but I think my parents’ perspective was they wanted us to be financially independent (not necessarily 6 figure jobs, just not failure to launch/needing support) and hard working. They have commented before how happy they are that my brother and I both have good jobs and don’t need help from them (compared to some of my cousins, who get a lot of support from their parents). I know my parents don’t love all our life choices (they aren’t terribly fond of my husband, seemed more enthusiastic about my career when I thought I was going to med school than when I ended up being a lawyer, desperately wish my brother would find a nice girl and get married because they worry about him being lonely) but generally are happy with how we turned out. How much of that is related to what our parents did? Who really knows, but certainly some. They didn’t pressure us really, but my dad owned his own business so it was a lot of modeling of hard work (and dad didn’t go to college, so I think on some level they knew if we weren’t perfect in school, it wasn’t the end of the world)

    • Senior Attorney

      I have a younger brother who totally failed to launch (was on the dole from my parents until they died, now as far as I know he’s living with his grown son). So as far as I’m concerned, the fact that my son is self-supporting and living on his own is a huge win! Honestly the other day I heard somebody say “let people be who they are” and for some reason that just struck me right down to my toes and I’m kind of out of the business of judging people’s lives. (other the the bad brother above, whom I judge hard and always will)

    • Anonymous

      Love this. I’m one of three and have three kids myself, though mine are all still in elementary school.

      Parenting success:
      1. Your kids like you, speak to you, and think well of you generally. They remember to call on your birthday, send a card, etc. without reminders from their mother or father. Even better, they still come around for family gatherings now and again.
      2. If they marry or long term partner, their SO’s parents actually kind of like them, assuming SO’s parents have a decent relationship with SO.
      3. They are street smart/life smart enough to figure their way out of difficult situations, whatever those may be.
      4. They have a lifestyle that supports their long term goals
      5. They do not have self-destructive behavior (this one is hard. It’s what I want for my kids, I’m not sure how much of it is strictly up to me.)
      6. If they have kids, they are a loving and decent parent.

      I’m a type A person with a fancy job, million dollar house, 2.5 kids and a dog. My brother and sister have very different life paths, but I think my parents love how all 3 of us turned out. My dad’s father dropped dead of a stroke at age 61 and ever since we were kids my dad has emphasized in how he lives and how he raised us how life is for living.

    • Monday

      I may be too late to this but am throwing it out just in case. I am struggling with this enough that I may do a separate post on it later. Well-meaning advice is welcome.

      I would always have agreed on the goal, for any child, that they grow up to be financially self-sustaining. It seems like a basic, minimum goal. But I now have a 16-y-o stepdaughter for whom I’m concerned this may not be realistic. First of all, financial independence in our current economy is really contingent on achievement and initiative. You can either go to college and enter a profession, or be in a skilled trade with a lot of hustle and organizational skill. I have people in my family of both descriptions, but all are hard workers with drive. There are very few options for someone with low energy and low motivation toward education and work, in general, to be able to cover all of their own expenses, including housing and health care, and then retire when needed. (Unless they were born into riches.) I honestly can’t name one such option, but help me out if you can.

      SD simply is not interested in work and shows no grit on anything. She’s sometimes interested in things, but as soon as something requires personal effort, whether physical or mental, she’s out. She’s content to be on social media all day. She does want a lot of stuff, but prefers to ask us for it (often being denied) than to earn money either through chores or through a job. Her younger sibling has already had a job for a year. Her Dad and I were also both working at this age. SD is basically a good kid, but her Dad and I agree that increasingly, the combination of her laziness and her constantly asking for things is looking like entitlement. We are absolutely not wealthy and don’t understand where this princess-type attitude came from.

      I’m concerned that for her to continue this way as an adult, the obvious option for her is going to be finding a breadwinning partner. There’s nothing necessarily wrong with this, as long as the partner treats her well and never leaves or dies…but nobody can be certain of these things and it’s a pretty big gamble. I can very much see her expecting to live with us indefinitely, always doing the minimum or trying to renegotiate rent (we have already agreed we would charge rent).

      Anyone else in this situation?

      • Anon

        This is pretty common for teenagers. Must grow out of it. Honestly a lot of what you wrote describes me at 16 (no job – although that was driven by parents who wanted me to focus on academics – being alone most of the time, and giving up when things didn’t come easily to me). I went to a very selective college and am objectively successful. I think unless the child has severe special needs, you put your foot down and don’t let them live with you post-high school or college or whatever your cutoff is. They’ll figure it out.

        Also I disagree that you have to be driven to be financially independent. Maybe in a very HCOL area like NYC. But there are plenty of jobs where you can be solidly mediocre and earn enough money to support yourself in a place where cost of living is not so crazy.

        • Monday

          Thank you for responding. As for these jobs where you can be mediocre and still earn a solid living in a low COL: are these jobs you can get with a high school degree? Because that’s what it’s looking like for her.

          • Monday

            To clarify: she is barely passing at her public high school, rising junior.

          • Anon

            Ah, I didn’t realize the part about barely passing her classes. The academic stuff would be a lot more concerning to me than the lack of interest in a job at this age, but I come from a family where your “job” until 18 was supposed to be school. I think you’re right that most jobs that pay decently well and don’t require a college degree are pretty demanding and/or require some level of hustle.

            I still think that absent special needs you can make her move out. If she doesn’t like the life she can afford working at Target (or wherever), maybe it will motivate her to go to community college or vocational school.

          • Coach Laura

            Monday, I think I would sit and read books, watch tv and read on the internet if I could and would have done that at times as a teenager. I was an A student but sure didn’t want to work sometimes. However, I did two sports, band, jazz band, service club, and had a part time job for junior and senior years. Going to college was always a given. But at some point, I wanted good things and knew that I had to achieve to get money for things.

            Some people just don’t have an inner drive, but some develop it later. For years, I taught at a community college, and a lot of the older students were ones who wouldn’t have gone to college directly after high school but learned that education might be useful.

            For your SD, I think a gradual series of discussions (as opposed to a “come to Jesus” discussion) will need to take place and junior year isn’t too late to start. You can do it informally and as a way of preparing for HS graduation. When school is going to start and the time comes to choose classes, I would have her sit down with her dad (and you, if that’s your dynamic) and go through what classes and grades she needs to graduate. Evolve it into a discussion of future careers. What does she want her life to look like? What does she need to do to get there? What support will her parents provide or not provide? I REALLY wanted to get out from under my parents and that motivated me to earn money and I never really lived with my parents after starting college. But you can set out that “If you don’t go to college, you’ll need to get a job. What job do you envision yourself in?” If she has no idea, junior year is a good time to talk to the counselors about job training and continue an ongoing dialogue with you. She will definitely need a lot of hand holding. However, now is the time for dad/you to say – you know when you graduate from high school you won’t be able to live with us/your mom for years/months. Decide how long – or what timeframe you want to target. If she knows that she is going to have to pay rent somewhere to have an independent life, that might jog some ideas loose.

            I’d also set her up with an allowance and make it clear over a few weeks/months that asking for things won’t be successful. So if she has a cell phone, she doesn’t get a new one unless she is able to pay for it. If she wants more/more expensive clothes, sorry – not in the budget. Teaching her to budget and that things aren’t free is a learning process and it is a good skill to learn now. This may spur her to think of jobs as means to an end.

            If you get pushback and she still keeps asking for things and is acting entitled, a stronger message may need to be sent.

            By way of experience, one of my kids was a big over-spender and a bit entitled but she also got her first job as a soccer ref at age 14, then Baskin Robins at 15 then Tully’s barista 16-18. But she spent it all, never saved. She worked all through college. Now she is queen of the budget and has great finances as a travel nurse. My son was miserly and never spent. But he didn’t get his first job until he graduated from college. Never wanted to work and we didn’t force it. He is still miserly and has a lot of med school debt that he took on himself but he will do fine. My point is that they both got to where they were good with money even though they had different approaches.

            I think your position is harder because her mom and her dad are divorced and thus your message may not be the same as mom’s. Maybe mom wants to support her until she’s 25 but you can make it a goal for her not to rely on you and her dad.

          • Monday

            Thank you for the additional comments, both.

            We are not demanding specifically that she get a job–we are just concerned that she is not doing *anything,* including any activities or above-bare-minimum school work. She does not read. When her screen time allotment is over, she may simply stare into space rather than do requested chores for which she would be rewarded. The idea of getting a job was just our best guess as to what might motivate her, since she definitely wants things that cost money. But that leads back to my first post: she’d rather just hope we buy things for her. She has also avoided learning to drive (was eligible for a learner’s permit a year ago). She does not seem motivated to achieve any kind of independence from us, hence my concern that she plans to live with us indefinitely.

            I think the allowance model is a good idea and will discuss with her Dad. He has already talked to her about limitations on living with us, but we may need to get more concrete and repeat the message. I am also thinking about us sharing with her an index of various jobs and what they make in COL-adjusted terms. I have tried introducing her to people in the industry she is supposedly interested in, including my cousin, but it does not lead anywhere–i.e. she does not ask them any questions or ask to shadow them or anything like that.

            Any further thoughts still welcome. Thanks again. This is really hard.

          • Anon

            Could your SD be depressed? Being a teenager is sometimes a confusing and stressful time. Do you/ her dad know what is going on inside her mind/ with her friend group? I would maybe suggest checking out that depression/ anxiety are not inhibiting her. Anxiety can take the form of inaction/ inertia.

          • Monday

            Thanks. She denies any mental health or emotional difficulties and has refused our offers of counseling, but maybe I should bring this up again. She has admitted that she is “afraid” to work or to drive, and does seem to see herself as incompetent. The problem is that everything we offer as baby steps, she refuses to do. For example, she could volunteer or do mini-jobs for family to make the idea of working less scary, but she doesn’t want to.

          • Esquinkle

            I’ll bite. My best friend in high school was smart but lazy, one hundred percent. She went to our state college (after missing the initial deadline and having to do late admissions/starting a semester late) but basically dropped out or got kicked out one or two semesters in. After that, she struggled. Minimum wage job at Office Max, a lot of pot and sleeping in, just scraping by. But now with college loans to pay off. It took a good number of years – maybe 5? – before she decided this was not what she wanted. She did night school and part time school, eventually got a degree in electrical engineering, and now does quite well for herself. Owns her own house, has a family. So sometimes people do just learn – but it has to come from within. Nothing I or her family could do to push her actually helped (pushing her to go to college after missing the first cut iff, for instance). So don’t lose heart! Imagine if our entire personalities were set at 16 – I’d have been screwed, personally.

          • Anonymous

            You don’t ask a kid who appears to be depressed whether she wants counseling. Of course she doesn’t, because she’s depressed and doesn’t believe it will help. In this situation you force the issue. Pediatrician, therapist, sport or exercise class for physical activity, probably also a job for this particular kid because she needs to experience the wonderful feeling of responsibility. It is non-negotiable. The poor kid is floundering and needs someone to step in and parent her, not just ask her what she wants because she doesn’t even know.

          • Anonymous

            The “barely passing” thing is a huge red flag. In our high school it is pretty much impossible to get anything but an A in regular classes unless you don’t turn in any of the work. AP and IB are different, but most regular and honors classes are rigged so that the default is an A. This means that there is a very serious problem if a kid is getting Bs, much less “barely passing.” An evaluation is definitely warranted.

      • Anon

        Does she feel okay? I was a bit of a princess as a teen, though my academics were in place (but I wasn’t in public school and my school situation was very princess-like with a lot of individualized instruction). Honestly being an entitled princess felt a lot better than admitting to myself how low my energy reserves had gotten. Turns out I had undiagnosed hypothyroidism, PCOS, anemia, and a sleep disorder. I was like a different person when it was all treated. I did have a lot of inner drive though and was more frustrated and defensive. But I wonder how I would have handled it if I had a different personality or attitude about it all.

        • Anon

          +1 I also wonder if the pandemic is a factor. It seems to have really impacted preteens and teens especially. Little kids are more used to and ok with being with their parents 24/7 but teens need those social connections with peers. If it’s that, hopefully the upcoming school year will be more normal and will help her bounce back.

          • Anon

            Hopefully. Staring into space like that concerns me. That’s really not what laziness looks like!

    • Anonymous

      I think the fact that you even have expectations for the children of your friends is concerning.
      As someone who is both a mother and an aunt, I can tell you that what you see from the outside is not the same as what is being lived on the inside. In your final paragraph you saw that for yourself. The girl whom you would have ‘put money on her not being particularly hard working or successful’ clearly showed you otherwise.
      I think you should stop worrying about what success is for other people and just live your own life. Be friends with your friends and let their children figure their own lives out.

    • Anon

      Oh this is interesting. Probably posting too late for anyone to read but here are my thoughts.

      Personally as a mom, I want my kids to be healthy, independent and kind.

      Healthy – I want them to know how to take care of themselves physically, mentally emotionally in a way that works for them. I’d like them to find balance in this. Ideally that would mean finding physical activities they enjoy and do regularly because the benefits of regular exercise are huge. I’d like them to eat a variety of things, including fruits and veggies but not think of any food as taboo or care about the number on the scale. I want them to value medical professionals and go to regular checkups, ask questions and get help when they need it (whether physically or mentally).

      Independent – I want them to be problem solvers, financially stable and think for themselves, even if it means they may disagree with me.

      Kind – I very much want my kids to not be jerks. That means both being kind to other people in day to day interactions and also being a good global citizen and giving back to the world in whatever ways speak to them the most.

      On achievement in general, less so with my own kids because they are fairly young and more so observationally from seeing how things shaped out for my peers, honestly I think most of achievement has almost nothing to do with parenting. And the effect of parenting is really not screwing it up by pushing kids too hard so they burn out, being too much of a helicopter parent so the kid never learns to speak up for herself or solve a problem herself or being too much of a safety net/not allowing kids to fail.

      Of course I will be super proud of any achievements my kids have but I’ve also seen enough successful (and not successful) people to give myself too much credit for any of their (hopeful) future success. My main goal is to let them be their own people, be a stable and supportive person in their lives and otherwise not screw them up too badly.

    • Seventh Sister

      I want them to have jobs that pay reasonably well and allow them to enjoy their lives / not work all of the time (e.g., engineering as opposed to investment banking). That said, I want them to go to college (4-year or 2-year) right after high school and move out before they are @ 25.

      As for professional success, I think parents can be helpful and unhelpful, but in a broad way. Also, if you aren’t a kid’s parent, you may not have a good sense of how well or not-well a kid is doing in school, what problems a kid has that aren’t apparent from social events, etc. Some kids (like my eldest) don’t come off as the brightest kid in the pack, but have excellent grades. Other kids (like my youngest) are the sort that have long, philosophical discussions with everyone from the aftercare lady to the parish priest, but struggle with staying on task at school.

      While I don’t have a huge number of friends with kids in their 20s, the ones that aren’t working / working very sporadically / not going to school are often dealing with serious mental health things and/or are super enmeshed with their parents to the extent that they can’t separate from their family dynamic. And sometimes, I forget the extent to which my peer grouped flopped around post college. While I went straight to law school (BAD IDEA), plenty of my friends worked at random service jobs before finding something career-like, hung out at their parent’s place for a few years doing nothing, etc. Not everyone has their stuff together right after childhood.

  5. Anon

    I am a pear with a tummy. And pretty flat-chested. And with a short-torso (I guess: built like a t-rex). This is not a sort of garment that would make me feel good about myself.

    • No Face

      I love these tops…on other people’s bodies. My rounded tummy does not look good in this style.

    • Shelle

      ha agreed! It’s also giving me serious early ’00s vibes which I’m not sure how to feel about. I suppose it’s better than Juicy track suits!

      • cat socks

        Yes, I had serious deja vu. I’m pretty sure I had this exact style.of top 20 years ago.

    • lifer

      Oh my goodness – we have the same body! What do you like wearing that you feel good in?

    • Worried

      This top brought a flashback of a friend in 1999. I was with her and she bought three of these tops- one in black, pink, and this exact blue. She bought them specifically to wear on first dates. They looked amazing on her ( petite with straight figure) She insisted I try one on at the time. I’m a bit taller, though still 5’4 and was bustier at the time. It looked ok on me,(on the racier side:) but drove me nuts to wear and kept slipping of my shoulder (small back and frame, bug bust).

    • Anon

      IDK why this top isn’t cropped. I get why the 2000s era version of this was long: pants had like a 2″ rise then and if shirts weren’t very long, it would be a “just say no to crack” look plus what sort of underwear do you wear with that (the answer always: some sort of visible thong). Shudder. Now that mom jeans are back, why wouldn’t this be about 9″ shorter in length? You are still covered unless you have a really long torso.

      • Shelle

        “the answer always: some sort of visible thong” I’m screaming. Yes this was such a trend. Will this one make a comeback??

  6. Madrid

    Trying again on the substance of my Q earlier- anyone have recs for a unique or special restaurant experience in Madrid, but… not so unique that it’s like they carry over bubbles of smoke to pop on your drink? Seeking a similar vibe as the 3-hour lunches we had at Frenchie and Septime in Paris.

    Plenty of tapas is planned, just looking for some more upscale experiences as well.

      • Madrid

        I saw them on a Reel and lost track of it… they did look mesmerizing! I mention it because we are more interested in foods cooked in unusual ways or combinations, super-high-quality ingredients, etc, as opposed to the super-sciencey aspects of some “inventive” restaurants – you know the type, foam on everything.

  7. Outer Banks?

    My family is relocating from NC to Boston this summer. We’re frequent visitors to the Outer Banks and really like the vibe for a week/weekend away – not massively crowded (there’s a TON of beachfront), pack a cooler, not built up, but not totally remote. Is there an area in the Northeast with something similar that would be a reasonable driving distance from Boston that we should be looking at for future summer vacations?

    Looking for something with few condos, mainly houses, some shops/things to do, but not a packed boardwalk, and most of all, a LOT of beachfront to keep the crowds dispersed.

    • Anon

      Maybe some of the south shore beaches? But generally New England is a lot more crowded than the southern US.

    • Anon

      Welcome to Boston! It’s a great place. If you’re up for the ferry / plane situation, I’d highly recommend Block Island in RI or Martha’s Vineyard in MA (and specifically for beautiful empty beaches you want chappaquiddick, but that’s a second ferry once you’re at the vineyard!)

    • Woof

      New England has lots of sandy beaches, however, from what I know, they are more crowded than the OUter Banks. There are few boardwalks in New England, though there are some, and lots of cute beach towns. Cape Cod would be the place to start–but that depends on where you will be living. North of Boston it would be a long drive. I think your question needs refinement to get good answers. Where will you be living? What town?

    • Anon

      Wells Beach in Maine? Manchester-by-the-Sea/Rockport/Gloucester? Hull? Newport or Little Compton, RI? Martha’s Vineyard/Nantucket ($$) Block Island, RI

    • NYCer

      I don’t think many NE beaches are going to compare to NC. That being said, there are some very nice beaches in NE. Nantucket, Martha’s Vineyard, Kennebunkport, Little Compton are among my favorites.

    • Anonymous

      the other cape (any of the towns that are on the atlantic). That’s going to be a pretty far drive for a daytrip but for a long weekend or week away it’s perfect. Orleans, Eastham, Wellfleet, Truro, Provincetown. Chatham is nice but crowded. We generally stay on the lower cape with young kids- tons of mini golf and bumper cars. There are no boardwalks.
      The beaches will be more crowded than NC, but there is offroading similar to what you find in the OBX.

      If you will be living north of boston, check out Maine! colder water than Cape Cod, but fewer sharks.

    • Anon

      No one from NC goes to the OB and the OB is impossible to get to from mainland NC. Everyone from NC would just go to SC beaches. So I’m really having trouble with the question- you seem very not NC.

  8. Would you wear this to a beach wedding?

    Very casual beach wedding and have been told sundresses are fine. I have a dress I’d love to wear but not sure if it is “too white”? It’s got blue floral patterns all over it but the base color is white. I’ll try post a link below (it’s the Jcrew “Afternoon dress in gathered floral block print”).

    • Anon

      I tend to err on the side of if you have to ask, it’s not the right dress.

    • Cat

      ehhh, in the pics from a distance, the pattern mostly blends in and the white is dominant. I’d pick a different one.

    • Sybil

      I’m usually uptight about this but I think that dress is perfectly fine for a wedding.

    • Anon

      I’m a no. Can you buy this in the other color?

      The other thing I’d be concerned about with this particular dress is that the combination of short length and unstructured style could make you fall victim to the random gust of wind that is common at beaches. I’d probably go with something longer for this reason.

    • Anon

      I think it’s totally fine. An influencer I follow has this dress and it does not look white at all, even from a distance.

    • Janey

      I think this looks like a white dress with blue spots. So probably not good for a wedding.

    • kitten

      No. The color is border-line ok for me but I just think the whole vibe of the dress (cut/length/fabric/lack of design) is too casual. I think it’s a great beach dress but not beach wedding dress. Also there are just so many cute sundresses to wear I wouldn’t want to waste the opportunity!
      I’m only speaking from my experience though, and there are probably regional differences. If I went to a “casual beach wedding”, I’d expect to see a lot of Agua Bendita/Joanna Ortiz types of dresses (I have lots of knockoffs of those styles from Zara).

      • MagicUnicorn

        Same. It’s a cute dress but if I saw it at a wedding I would expect it to be on a 14 year old and not an adult attendee.

      • Anon

        I said the color was fine, but I do agree it’s a little casual for a wedding. It kind of looks like a swim cover-up.

    • OP

      Thanks everyone – I’ve decided to go with another dress :) I agree, if I even have to ask, the answer is probably no.

    • Anon

      I haven’t seen the new season but I’m looking forward to it. I love that Cara Delevingne is in it! I didn’t know before I clicked your link.

      There are websites that break down fashion in different movies and shows, and this article seems to do that, but while it mentions the necklace it doesn’t credit it.

      https://fashionista.com/2022/06/hulu-only-murders-in-the-building-season-two-selena-gomez-costumes-outfits

      This may mean that it’s Cara’s own necklace and/or it’s not current season so they can’t link it. (I didn’t read it too closely because I wanted to avoid spoilers)

      Anyway, knowing that her name is Cara Delevingne is her name might help you find it through google.

    • Anon

      I have a comment in m-d, but basically, there are articles that list clothing and jewelry items from movies and shows, and they don’t list this necklace, so it’s probably past season and/or Cara’s personal item.

    • Anon

      Ok I am,

      who is a size 0 or 2 and is going to buy that Carmen jacket? It’s gorgeous, reminds me of The Fold.

  11. Senior Attorney

    Ladies, I Did The Thing!

    Left the house today for the first time in two weeks (finally tested negative yesterday), spent 2-1/2 hours at the credit union, and got my dad’s estate sorted and the money distributed to myself and the sibs.

    BIG WIN. HUGE RELIEF. YAY!!

    Now I am just waiting for that batch of frosé to freeze so I can bust it out and enjoy it with the Tour de France highlights when my sweet husband gets home!

    • Anon

      Congratulations SA!!! Glad you’re over the hump on the COVID and the estate!!

    • Coach Laura

      Congrats SA!

      I guess the failure to launch brother that you talked about above is going to be happy? Maybe he can move out of his son’s house (switched from a 35yo living with parents).

      • Senior Attorney

        I fear he is going to spend the whole wad on a fancy pickup truck. *headdesk*

        In better news, though, my half-sister is going to be able to buy her first house at age 70 so I feel like that’s just thrilling.

  13. Anon

    My husband is very good friends with the mom of one of our kid’s friends and sometimes it feels like they have this connection that makes me uncomfortable. They are obviously good friends and have a lot in common and it makes me feel jealous. When they hang out together without me for hours at a time, I feel like he wants to hang out with her more than me. I know that he should be allowed to have friends but their outings always end up with us in a fight because I get so mad when he finally comes home. How do I break this cycle? I know that he would never cheat but the issue is more that I get very jealous that he is having so much fun without me and it is with someone of the opposite sex from him.

    • Curious

      My general experience is that when I get upset with my husband, it’s because one of my needs isn’t being met. Are you having enough time with him? Are you getting enough sleep? Are you having fun in your life? Once we address the need, the issue often miraculously disappears.

      • OP

        Thank you Curious – this is a thoughtful reply. We don’t have much free time usually since we have 3 kids and are often running from dance practice to sports etc. I do make time for daily walks around the block for myself. But my husband and I don’t get a lot of quality alone time so that is another reason that I get jealous when he spends what feels like excessive time with her.

        • Curious

          Yeah, romance and dating each other is so important! Regardless of any impropriety, him prioritizing that friendship when you feel like your relationship well is dry is going to hurt. That’s the first conversation I would have to try to break the cycle. Best of luck!

    • Anon

      In my experience, feelings are there for a reason. IMO he needs to tone down the friendship. I would set my boundaries with that. Most people say my husband will never cheat but then they do. Better to prevent it altogether. It’s a slippery slope to an affair.

    • Anonymous

      They have a connection that makes me uncomfortable.
      They have a lot in common.
      They hang out together for hours at a time. “their outings…”
      I feel likes to hang out with her more than me.
      He is having so much fun without me, and with another woman.

      All of this would bother me, too. Do you also have outings with him, for hours at a time? Do you also have a lot in common with him, and a good connection? Do the two of you also have a lot of fun together?

      Without knowing you, him, and her, it’s impossible to tell if something is off in your perspective, if something is off in your marriage, and/or if something is off in this friendship.

      Can you find a wise person who knows you and him, who can give you some perspective on this? I do agree with you that it’s time to break the cycle of arguments, and you may need someone outside the two of you to help you do that.

      • NYCer

        +1 to all of this. I will say that what you described would bother me too.

        Was he independently friends with her before you had kids, or did they meet through the kids? Reasonable or not, if they have been friends for a long time (pre-kids), I would probably be less bothered by the friendship.

        • OP

          Thank you for the above replies – it helps so much to have these thoughts. The friendship is a few years old. I did ask a friend who knows all of us and she said that both sides seem flirty. I think because they have gotten so close, they do tend to have inside jokes and share looks etc. It kind of makes me feel like I have to compete with her, although writing that out I can see how that seems a bit much since we are married.

    • Anon

      I’m just going to pause on the “I know he should be allowed to have friends”. No. Not like this. He’s having an emotional (if not physical) affair. He’s prioritizing this friendship above your relationship. You are not this issue. Your jealousy is not the issues. And if he’s telling you otherwise he’s gaslighting you.

      • Anon

        +1 I agree. And I have a husband with several close female friends and think I’m more chill about hetero opposite sex friendships than many people.

        • OP

          How do you manage this without feeling jealous of that though? I guess the problem in my situation is that the connection between them has grown – right before my eyes – and now I feel like that relationship is so special to him, like there are things that they enjoy doing together that we don’t do. But we have 3 kids and I have a busy job (he has more of a 9 to 5 job) plus all of the day to day household things!

      • Emma

        +1. From OP’s comments, it sounds like there is a real issue in terms of him not spending enough time with OP, yet having hours to go off with this other woman. Even if it’s purely platonic, it seems inappropriate to be using up precious free time on a friendship with another woman when you aren’t meeting the basic need of spending enough time with your wife. That relationship should always come first.

        If it seems “flirty” on both sides, that adds a whole other level to it. OP, your husband should absolutely not be flirting with another woman he’s spending hours with without you. BUT the main thing here to address is that he isn’t meeting your needs and you have a right to be his #1 priority. You don’t want to massage away these feelings when they’re telling you a very real boundary needs to be set.

        Since flirting is subjective and can be denied, I would frame the conversation in terms of “I feel like I don’t see you enough and it hurts me when you have hours for her and not me.”

        • OP

          Thank you Emma and Anon at 8:39. These are helpful points. I had been focusing on my jealousy (because I do feel so jealous of her!) but your posts give me more to think about.

  14. We're from Austria

    Lord help me, it is July and I am ordering thermic underwear and electric heating pads because there is a preliminary agreement to lower the temperature in government buildings to 19°C this winter, should Putin decide to switch off the gas. Currently looking at office appropriate wool sweaters. I am so tired of these interesting times. I’m just going to stop reading news for the rest of the weekend and enjoy summer…

  15. Anon

    TLDR: is microneedling worth it when your skin is already in pretty good condition?

    I have a milestone birthday coming up and was thinking of getting microneedling as my gift to myself. I just called around, and it’s more money than I was expecting (for a series of 3) which is making me second guess the idea. For the same money I could upgrade all my skincare and makeup. And I already use tret and have pretty good skin so I don’t know that there’s that much for improvement.

    • Anon

      Why do you want micro needling then, if your skin is in such great condition?

      If you want a treatment of some sort for general preventative care / upkeep I’d do IPL instead. But I wouldn’t do anything that wasn’t addressing a specific concern.

    • Sallyanne

      I did a more intense PRP microneedling series shortly after turning 50 and there were noticeable changes initially (glow, decreased fine lines). But honestly I wish I would have done laser treatments instead and will be looking at those this winter. I think you get more bang for your buck with laser. You didn’t mention which milestone birthday but said your skin was already in good shape- maybe a different sort of gift would be more suitable for you.

    • Anon

      I have great skin and my secret is doing nothing to it. The low-no maintenance approach was passed down by my grandmother, mother, and I wouldn’t mess with it. Do something else for your birthday! Be grateful you don’t have to spend money on skincare!

  16. Anon

    Any recommendations on where to have a Ferragamo purse repaired? I’m in the PNW but happy to mail it somewhere else if that’s an option.

    I have a little day purse with a metal clasp that I bought off of a luxury resale site and for the last few years it’s been my go-to for work events that aren’t galas or dinner events. Alas, this week a tiny pin snapped off of the hinge in the clasp and part of it came off. Other than that it’s still pristine so I’d love to repair it and get it back into the rotation.

    I’m a budding watch nerd so I have a bunch of spare spring bars tucked away and I think I could finagle some sort of fix with either one of those or maybe something from a glasses repair kit, but if there’s somewhere I could send the purse to have it properly repaired then that would probably be the best solution since I get so much use out of this piece.

    Thank you for any suggestions!

  17. Sweet Sue

    Any suggestions for good tops with neck interest? My company is remote first now and I’m on video calls about half the day. Early in the pandemic I was okay with a more casual look, because we were all working in a tee shirt and yoga pants. Now that many people are back in the office, I don’t want to look too casual. I’ve looked around, but haven’t been inspired.

    • Monte

      I like both The Fold and Sezane — The Fold is more formal but they both have tops and blouses that are different than your typical scoop- or v-neck. I would go with Sezane if you are looking for tops than are appropriate for internal work meetings but that you might also want to wear for weekend life.

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