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Weekend Open Thread

white sneaker with green details at heel and tongue

Something on your mind? Chat about it here.

What do you think of as “white sneaker season” — can it be a transitional piece into fall, or would you not wear white after Labor Day? I've seen so many white sneakers with leather(ish) pants and sweatshirt-type dresses that I think they can work for early fall, if weather cooperates.

One of the OG classics, Stan Smith, are on sale right now at Nordstrom if you need to buy a new pair. I didn't realize they were slightly eco-friendly, but the upper is made from 50% Primegreen recycled materials. Nice.

The shoes were $100, but are now marked to $70 in select colors. (Also on sale: these highly rated Vince slip-on sneakers.)

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Sales of note for 12.5

282 Comments

  2. What goes around comes around. I sold (and wore) these shoes in the early 1980s when I worked at an athletic goods store in high school.

  3. Hoping to get a larger sample of answers if this posts earlier – if you have about a 200k income and definitely under 250k, what is your yearly travel budget in regular non pandemic years. Also how do you split it up, do you prefer one long international trips with luxury hotels, premium flights or do you do many shorter trips and long weekends?

    1. We make just a bit less than 200k, but I doubt we’ve ever spent more than 2-3k on travel in a year. Just long weekends here and there and the rest of our vacation time ends up being trips to see family.

    2. If I were single and childless, on that income I’d budget around $20K/year for travel and would do two nice but not outrageous weeklong trips per year plus several surf/paddle/ski weekends. I think I’d have trouble spending the astronomical amount of money required to upgrade to business or first class flights but would have less of a problem spending on pretty nice hotels. This assumes MCOL living expenses; with HCOL housing costs I don’t know that you could go that high.

    3. We are a family of 4 with income maybe around 275k so prorate If you need to. We’re making up for lost time and will probably spend 15k on two international trips, one domestic long weekend with flights and a couple long weekends without flights. It’s kind of ridiculous but travel is really important to us.

      1. Doesn’t seem ridiculous if travel’s a priority. Your family will likely remember these trips forever!

    4. when we were in that income range we were also in peak wedding season. I think probably $7500 a year between 2-3 wedding weekends, visits to family (each side lives a flight away), and one “real” international vacation for a week to 10 days. (Not ‘luxury’ but not hostel living either!)

      our income is now about double that and rather than raise our standards significantly, we’ve raised the amount of travel.

      1. We make a lot less than you, but our attitude has also been to increase travel not fanciness as we have more disposable income. We’re not staying in hostels or motel 6s or anything, but I have no problem finding clean and comfortable hotels in the $150-200/night range in most of North America and Europe. I would so much rather take more trips than stay at $1,000/night luxury hotels. Exception is the Caribbean where we often splurge on luxury resorts for scenic views and high-quality food, but our Caribbean trips tend to be short and we usually get good deals on flights so the overall trip cost is not bad.

    6. We have a combined income of around $200k and spend between $4-$10k on travel, annually. We live in New England, and I really struggle with winter so beach vacations to Florida/the Caribbean are a priority. Basically, it’s not the super wisest ( should be saving more for retirement/college) but the trips make me feel like all of the stress of working and parenting is worth it and my children will be out of the house in 6 or so years, so want to maximize family vacations now. Hope to go to Europe next as a family.

      1. Hard same. A winter trip to the Caribbean is basically a non-negotiable for me at this point. I tell my husband it’s the tax we pay for living in the LCOL Midwest. :)

        1. Heh, if we still lived an afternoon’s drive from the Canadian border in the middle of nowhere, I would be adopting this framing.

    7. We do two international trips per year, under 10k for both trips. Economy flights, mid range hotels, with a few select splurges like a nice dinner or spa day. The only time we spent 1k/night on hotels is at the hot springs in Japan, but that’s just one night out of the trip, not our entire trip.

    8. Haaaaaahahaha international trips with luxury hotels! Family of 4 with one set of grandparents on the other side of the country and household income around $200k. We try to fly there 1x a year which can be $1-2k in tickets (I mean, flights this summer were totally nuts and if we hadn’t had miles it really would have been close to $2k since our dates weren’t flexible). We also try to take a one week trip in the summer that since having kids has been a driving trip with rental house, spending $1000-2000 on rental house, and occasional other shorter rental house trips in the $500-1k range (not every year). Saving to take some flying trips over the next couple years.

      1. Flights this summer were sooo nuts. Paid almost $5k to get our family of three from a major US city to a major European city (and we checked other cities in Europe and couldn’t find substantially cheaper fares).

    9. My spouse and I made around $200k combined until a few months ago (now is just a hair above $250k) and I, personally have spent about $15,000 on travel in the past 12 months. I went on an expensive weeklong trip without my spouse, so between the two of us we’ve probably spent around $25-27k on travel in the past year. This is slightly higher than average b/c we were making up for some trips we couldn’t take during COVID, but I would estimate that we usually spend at least $20k a year between the two of us. As some of the other commenters mentioned when you asked originally, obviously travel is a huge priority for us and we save elsewhere to prioritize this (lower rent/mortgage than we could afford, both drive 15 year old cars, etc.). Our breakdown of travel probably looks something like this:
      1 weeklong international vacation in relatively nice hotels
      1 weeklong domestic vacation in relatively nice hotels
      1 weeklong hiking trip
      3 weekend/long weekend trips to the beach
      1 long weekend ski trip
      1 long weekend for a sporting/music event
      2-3 long weekend trips that we do separately to visit different friends/tacked on to work trips
      2-3 weekend trips weddings or other family events
      1 weeklong trip to my in-laws on the opposite coast (I usually work remotely during this, in case you’re doing the math and wondering how much vacation time I have)

    10. DINK with a joint annual income of over $300K. No travel since COVID. Pre-COVID, we spent between $7500 and $10K a year but most flights were paid for with miles and points, as well as many hotel nights.

    11. HHI 250-300 kUSD.
      All our family is in Europe so we spend around 6kUSD in total annually on flights for 3 people, for 2 trips. This would include flights, rental car to/from airport, hotel at airport if arriving too late to reach final destination. We usually don’t have a rental car at the final destination, as European cities are walkable and public transport readily available and cheap.

      For individual trips with Airbnb’s/VRBO we usually spend around 100-150 USD/night, and total number of nights usually doesn’t exceed 10-15 per year.
      We are outdoorsy and fairly frugal, so we’re not doing super expensive activities (e.g. skiing trips), and have never stayed in an all-inclusive resort.
      So in total, we spend maybe 10 kUSD per year, but definitely below 20kUSD.

    12. $10k no kids and economy flights but nice hotels. Often international but also domestic.

    13. $3000 for a normal year. We just don’t spend that much on vacations and don’t tend to travel internationally – especially lately. We drive to a rental house in a wooded/river area and stay there a week. It’s our family tradition and totally recharges us in a way stomping around a foreign city doesn’t do.

      I used to be a road warrior and still have 900k United miles to use so trips for the foreseeable future will be hotel/meals only, even if we do go somewhere further flung, but it would be in addition to and not replacing our traditional week away, because none of us are willing to give that up.

      2 adults, 2 college aged kids.

    14. I’m single/no kids and my annual income has ranged from about $200k to $240k since 2017 or so. I typically take at one to two big trips per year of 1-2 weeks. Usually at least one is international and the other might be international or cross-country since I live on a coast. I also typically do a 3-4 long weekends a year away with or visiting friends. These are either renting a house with friends within driving distance or flying to meet up with or stay with friends in another state. I also often travel to see my siblings and their kids out of state for a 4-8 times a year, with the possibility of a week-long stay (depending on the availability of vacation time).

      I don’t track my travel budget specifically, but I’m naturally thrifty and stay within a budget, so I don’t stress too much about it. I’d guess that I spend anywhere from $4k-$20k on travel, depending on the year, where I’m going, and who I’m going with. As we’ve gotten older, several of the friends I travel with have (reasonably) upped their standards so that those of us who are single are less likely to share beds or bedrooms and are more likely to drink nicer wine and eat at least a meal or two at a medium-nice restaurant. Personally, I’d prefer to have my own room, but not enough for it to be an issue, and I generally don’t care about luxury hotels, though I will pay a bit extra if a hotel is well-located. I’m also very short, so I’ve never sprung for first/business class flights. But I will avoid connecting flights if at all possible, which it usually is for not too much more, since I am flying from a major city.

      In 2022, I’ve taken two international week-long trips so far, two long ski weekends, and visited my siblings’ family for three long weekends. I’m hoping to go on another week-long trip in the fall, might do a long weekend with friends (unclear yet whether it will be driveable or flying), and will visit my sibling at least twice more. So far I’ve spent about $7500 on travel I think, driven in part by high prices for flights earlier this year.

    15. 325K income, during pandemic no flights no international but weeklong stays 4-9 hours driving distance, rent larger SUVs, AirBnB or 3 star hotels, schlep pets and some work tech. Will have 3 weeklong stays in 2022. Plan 4 in 2013. All are combination work and vacation.

      Before pandemic, did one domestic weeklong stay for Thanksgiving; averaged one week in Canada for winter; ten days in Japan; 5 days on US West Coast. Some years visited a US state (South Carolina, Florida) or Western or Central Europe instead of Japan.

      Before pandemic was able to take real vacations. During pandemic only the death of a parent gave me days off from work and that was no vacation.

  4. I was sick with a long GI bug the last two weeks of August, then spent Labor Day weekend with family. I’m just now unearthing my inbox and I have stuff on here from mid-August… no real deadlines have been missed, but I hate it and now I can’t seem to get momentum to get this stuff done. Anyone else successfully dig out of a pile?

    1. Inbox amnesty: move everything that’s more than a week old to a different folder (or delete if you’re brave enough). If it’s important they’ll follow up. This strategy is not for the faint of heart but it’s been lifechanging for me. I only had to do the big purge a couple times and now I keep my inbox at a manageable level.

      1. Not for the faint of heart or for lawyers (or a number of other professions)!

    2. I set aside time to sort it out. If I can answer something in under 2 minutes, I do. If it needs followup, it goes into a folder. Once the delete, answer, sort process is done, I start working through the follow ups. Usually they actual follow up work is not significant because things were resolved in the meantime. I actually book time to work on the follow up items after that.

  5. Moms who have been through the college search: How do you help your child identify colleges that are, for lack of a better term, non-toxic? My wonderfully self-aware daughter is a top student in a tiny IB program, which she loves, in a large public high school, which she doesn’t love. She is looking for a small liberal arts college where everyone is serious about learning and engaged, but there isn’t the insane pressure or cutthroat competitive environment of an elite school. She doesn’t want to be around Greek life or partying, and although she’s a progressive is not interested in one of those places that encourages students to spend 100% of their time being super angry social justice warriors. Basically, she wants to go to class with people who are excited about learning, learn cool stuff that prepares her for a career, hang out in a relaxed dorm with laid-back friends, maybe spend a little time on a get out the vote campaign or something, make art, sing in the choir, get a part-time job, and go skiing on weekends. No drama. I fully support this goal, but don’t know how she’s ever going to find this unicorn school. One college that presented itself as exactly what she was looking for was just in the news for being full of toxic drama. US News rankings don’t have a score for “serious but happy students.” I know that some people I know who went to XYZ school 25 years ago were happy, but that’s about it. Do I need to hire a private college counselor to give her the inside scoop?

    1. What does she want to study? And (she may not know yet) but does she have an industry or a company she’d like to work at? If she’s interested in a specific degree OR working in a specific industry/company it would probably be best to start with who’s well known for the best types of programs OR looking at where her industry/ideal companies recruit from and narrowing it down from there.
      If she’ll be paying for any of this herself I’d also encourage her to do cost cost benefit analyis of salaries vs. her tuition bill. Many of the charming, lower pressure, well regarded liberal arts colleges are eye-wateringly expensive. If you have plenty of money set aside or she’s truly a unicorn student and you expetc her to get a full ride then ignore that point!

      1. Right now, she wants to study psychology. She has no clue about a realistic career pathway and wants the school to help her figure that out. But how do you know which are those charming lower-pressure schools? One she was initially interested in turns out to churn out finance bros so she scratched it off her list. Another turned out to be a pressure cooker. Another was the one she thought was perfect until the news story broke.

        We expect to be able to pay quite a bit but not full freight. Whether she gets any merit aid depends on the school and on how seriously she decides to take the SAT. She is not allowed to take out student loans, at least not if she wants our money.

        1. Yikes, not allowing her to take out any loans seems really harsh. I understand not wanting your kid to go $100k+ in debt for an undergrad education, but a small amount of loans is not necessarily a bad thing.

          My kid is much younger but my husband and I actually plan to insist our child take loans, even though we can afford to pay full freight. I frittered away my $400k undergrad education because I didn’t have a financial stake in it. In law school, I had skin in the game (~$30k in loans, in addition to a big scholarship and some parental assistance) and I took school SO much more seriously, and did very well. Fwiw we’ll probably help her pay off the loans, if not pay them off completely, if she works hard in college and behaves responsibly afterwards. But I think kids don’t take school seriously enough when the parents are signing all the tuition checks. At least I definitely didn’t.

          2. We just finished paying off the giant bait-and-switch that was my law degree (tuition doubled, scholarship did not), and those loans really held us back. I will not allow her to make the same mistake for her bachelor’s degree. She can have some skin in the game by working for her pocket money.

        2. It seems maybe a little premature to cross off a school because it produces people who work in finance. It’s not like she’s going to be taking those classes, right? She may never interact with them. I think most schools will have some students she won’t like, but she doesn’t have to be friends with everyone. I wonder if she might like a bigger school with more diversity? Maybe it doesn’t meet all the criteria, but more student would give her a bigger chance to find her people. I went to a large school ( a dreaded party school) but there were all kinds of people and lots of research money. I did not feel pressured or that anything was toxic because there was so much choice. I also kind of wonder if the school she originally liked may not really be that bad. News stories can sometimes be a bit overblown. Perhaps worth a visit despite the negative press?

          1. yeah, I’d be hard-pressed to think of any good school that doesn’t place *some* people in finance.

            Gently, I think you’re overthinking this and your daughter should go to the best school she can get into and you can afford, assuming she gets a good vibe when visiting campus. She’ll find her people no matter where she goes.

          2. I agree with this. I went to a very large public university that had a Greek system. But it also had excellent science programs and a large performing arts center, so I hung out with the science geeks and the theater kids.

            It was nice to be at a school large enough to have solid programs in a lot of different disciplines, as I did not know what I wanted to do when I started college, and in fact ended up doing something I did not even really know about as a high school senior. And the large school also meant I could be exposed to lots of different kinds of people, but ultimately could find “my” people.

            And I was a very shy, introverted kid, but did great at my large university. It was a very good experience.

        3. Given your inability to pay full-freight and prohibition on her taking on loans, cost seems like it will be the number one driver of her school choice – not vibe.

          All of the small schools named are private and pricey, so I am not seeing how your daughter could afford them absent a significant amount of merit or financial aid.

          Are you suggesting that she does a year or two at community college and then transfers?

          1. We are planning to spend quite a lot but not the $80K/year that these schools are asking for, which in two years will probably be even more. I was hoping she’d be interested in a slightly lower-ranked, but still excellent, school that does give merit aid, rather than one of the top-ranked schools that do not offer merit aid. I don’t know how need-based aid will come out; my financial advisor and I came up with very different EFC estimates. Community college is a non-starter because she’ll have all those requirements satisified when she graduates high school and she wants out of the house yesterday.

          2. What can you actually pay? A parental contribution of $30k/year is very different than $60k/year. If you’re more in the $30k bucket your daughter should focus her search on state schools and private schools where she expects significant merit aid, which won’t be at top schools unless she’s a real academic superstar. If you can pay something like $60k/year I strongly urge you to reconsider your no loan policy. I definitely don’t think a Swarthmore or an Amherst is worth $70k/year in loans, but I do think it might be worth $10k/loans for the right student. I think you’d be doing your daughter a disservice by not allowing her to borrow a little bit to go to an academically top tier private school that’s a good fit for her.

        4. Maybe this is different depending on the school but from the parents I’ve spoken with (my SILs, close friends of college freshman and sophmores, neighbors) with kids majoring in more general degrees (psych, sociology, english & history) the college counsellors were/are pretty useless at helping kids figure out what on earth to do with that degree and (imho more importantly) how to market themselves to get started in that job.
          I hate (hate!!) the idea that 18 year olds need to know what they want to do BUT it might be worth talking with her about her strengths/weaknesses, what types of things she enjoys in work (working alone? in a team? being creative? following a pattern? different things daily or getting better and better at the same thing over time?) and then trying to triangulate what careers might be good fits for her and how to set up her degree/internships to get there. That is probably more early career counselor than college counselor but I was utterly shocked by how early you need to start applying for internships and just how much that can shape your future career choices.

          1. +1. I would not count on the college to help her figure out what to do with a psychology degree.

          2. To me, “psychology degree” says “not doing math or a hard science like engineering; also not planning to be in the business school.” It’s fine but to me shorthand sir just saying you will probably be a standard liberal arts major.

          3. My suggestion would be she work part time (potentially as a student worker on campus, etc) during her studies to get experience and figure this out practically herself. All of my professional development came from jobs, not my actual bachelors degree (although I work in the field of my degree). It was my experience that you only start getting to professionally-useful studies at the masters level. This must vary across fields.

        5. Honestly, for a kid who doesn’t have a clear career pathway and wants to major in something relatively “useless” like psychology (no offense, but a psychology degree does not open the same doors that an engineering or business degree does), I would do a state school. I would not pay $$$$ for a private college for my kid to major in psychology without a clear career path even if I could afford it. If she has her heart set on a private school she needs to do more research about what she might do with this degree or find something more practical to major in.

          2. I agree with this. So many kids end up saddled with debt bc they choose a major that doesn’t have a huge ROI but attend a $$$ school.

          4. +3. OP, I would encourage your daughter to consider a state school in your home state if i were you.

    2. I think people who are in college currently or have kids in college currently are the best source of information. A private college counselor is not the right answer for this IMO. They are focused on inflating their own stats by getting kids into prestige schools.

      Fwiw, I think in general she sounds like a good fit for the most selective liberal arts colleges (Swarthmore, Pomona, Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Wellesley if she’s open to the all girls thing, etc.) I don’t think of those places as super cutthroat, but they have smart and engaged students. My mom went to Swarthmore and had a wonderful experience though of course many years ago. In hindsight, I really regret not looking at liberal arts colleges. My high school had 500 people per class and I was determined not to go to a college that was smaller than my high school, thinking that my high school drama was caused by the relatively small class size and I needed a bigger place to get away from the drama. Of course it’s really that high school = drama, and college is very different than high school regardless of where you go.

      1. And I’m guessing the school in the news is Oberlin? Fwiw, even before the recent news I would not have said that sounds like a great fit for your kid. It definitely has a much more SJW-y rep than the other schools I listed. Maybe I just have a negative association because it spawned Lena Dunham, lol. But I definitely think of the kids there as more focused on politics and less focused on academics than at the other schools I listed.

          3. Hey, Oberlin also spawned Liz Phair. She helped me through my angsty college years during the mid-90s.

            And to OP’s original question, my experience is decades out of date, but I went to a large but elite public university with Greek life (blech), big-time athletics (kinda fun), and droves of annoying gunners (spoiler: they’re everywhere!). It didn’t matter. I found my people (fun-loving, socially conscious types who were also serious students), enjoyed my major (history), enjoyed my minor (German), and came out of the experience feeling well-prepared for life. I was still a 20 nothing and had lots to learn, but that’s just life and not a reflection on my alma mater. FWIW, my nephew and children of some of my friends have had similar experiences despite charting that path 20+ years later at places as varied as small liberal arts colleges, BIG STATE U, Directional State U, Elitist College, and Armed Services Academy.

            I think your daughter has got this.

      2. If the parents aren’t paying full freight and she’s not taking loans, it’s going to be hard to afford those schools. Merit aid isn’t guaranteed even with good scores.

        1. That’s true. But if she’s good enough to get into top 10 liberal arts schools, she might be eligible for some aid at the next group like Grinnell, Haverford, Colby, Bates, Wesleyan, etc. I’m a native Iowan so probably biased, but I think very highly of Grinnell. Some of the smartest (and nicest!) people in my high school class went there.

          1. What are you even talking about? Wesleyan, Haverford, Bates, and Colby do NOT give out merit aid.

            If you want merit aid, you’re dropping down a level below that.

          2. Some schools in that group definitely give merit aid. I know Wesleyan does because I know someone who got a full (merit) ride there. Grinnell’s website says they give merit aid.

          3. She’s not getting merit aid at any of those excellent schools. You need a massive reality check.

          4. I’m not OP and obviously it depends on her kid’s academic qualifications, but it is a statement of fact that Wesleyan and Grinnell give merit aid. You said no schools in that group give merit aid, which is false.

          5. No, Anon at 4:27 pm, you do NOT know someone who got merit aid from Wesleyan. You know a liar or someone who cannot tell the difference between need-based and merit-based aid:

            “Wesleyan does not offer merit-based financial aid (however, you can apply scholarships you have received from other sources to reduce certain college costs). Wesleyan’s need-based aid can include loans, work study, and grants.”

            https://www.wesleyan.edu/finaid/

            Bam.

          6. Wash U and Grinnell both came to mind for me, just based on friends who went there 15 years ago. I didn’t apply to Grinnell but was offered full tuition at Wash U, albeit because I was a woman in physics. Another similar friend liked Davidson.

          7. Ha Curious we’re twins! Another woman in physics here who got offered a free ride to Wash U :)

        2. Merit aid comes with undershooting on undershooting where you apply. Room fees ofte. Come with being an RA. That is the no-loan path to college.

      3. So a lot of these schools don’t give merit aid (Williams doesn’t). Not sure how you can prohibit her from taking out loans? That’s a very confusing stance to take from my perspective. If she’s going to one of these schools it’s not a bad investment.

    3. I guess you could hire a private counselor. What does she want to study? What do you want to spend? Where does she / you want to live? How competitive a scholar is she?

      Off the top of my head, consider somewhere like Vassar, Wesleyan, Haverford, or Tufts. Maybe Bates.

      FWIW, your daughter sounds like me in college but I ended up and a school with Greek life and a bit of a party kid vibe (work hard/play hard, bunch of prep school kids who didn’t get into ivies) and I totally came out of my shell and thrived.

      1. Except do any of those offer merit aid? The no loans thing is going to be a deal killer.

        1. Nope. None of those schools offer merit aid. Moreover, Tufts had a 9% acceptance rate in the 2021-2022 admissions cycle. Wesleyan is around 20%, Haverford is at 18%.

          I’m going to be a broken record on this point, aren’t I? These are great schools that are not going to fling money at her. She will be lucky to get in and no one should treat them as anything but reaches.

          1. Actually with the stats OP listed below I think a lot of schools will fling money at her. I had similar (actually slightly worse) stats to OP’s daughter and I got full ride offers from schools I didn’t even apply to. The Ivies, Stanford, MIT and the very top ranked SLACs don’t give merit aid, but she’ll be competitive for significant merit aid at pretty much any school that offers it, which includes many very good private colleges and pretty much all public universities.

          2. The misconception here is not that “schools” give merit aid – obviously someone will pay a 4.5 GPA student to go. Schools like Wesleyan, Bates, Tufts, Haverford, etc. do NOT.

            Also, “shooting for” 1500+ SATs is hardly the same thing as having those scores in hand. Meh extracurriculars are going to doom her at top schools.

          3. Actually most academic merit funding for top students comes directly from institutions. It’s hard to get significant tuition funding by combining small external scholarships, many of which also have a leadership component and aren’t solely about academics. But it’s actually not that hard to get merit aid directly from a school by stepping down ~10-30 spots in the rankings from the best school a student is able to get into. I had similar stats to OP’s daughter. I got no independent scholarships (except National Merit, which is pretty much automatic for certain test scores) but I got several merit scholarships from very good schools, including a full ride at Wash U which is tied for #14 in the US News national universities rankings. Things are definitely more competitive now and I’m not suggesting OP’s daughter should expect a full ride to Wash U, but I think the general point that you can move down in the rankings a bit and get significant merit aid still stands. Pretty much any school outside the top 10 is interested in buying excellent students away from HYPS.

          4. Except the OP’s daughter ing the kind of kid Duke wants to buy away. There are literally tens of thousands of kids with her stats or better – and the super talented ones are the Intel finalists, Olympic athletes, kids both their own patents, or superstars whose parents have a third grade education. Your basic smart suburban girl with mediocre extracurriculars is not going to get feted with merit aid by the University of Chicago.

        2. Some do. But based on your responses you need a college counselor to help you figure out the cost piece probably more than this unicorn magical college.

          State school is fine!! She will find a niche there.

          1. Not all students find their niche at state school. I wrote transfer application recommendations for some. Others just have awful, awful memories, or never even graduated.

          2. Any school can be a bad fit. And sometimes you just have to work at it. Transferring doesn’t necessarily change anything but the school you are currently at.

    4. I think a lot of college is what you make it. If she’s open to a bigger campus and willing to find her niche, she can do what you’d describe pretty much anywhere. Colorado college? Bates? Bowdoin? UVM or UNH?

      1. I agree. I went to a state school, and one thing I definitely appreciated about the large size is that you could find your niche of study, social life, and extracurriculars. You could absolutely avoid all of those things your daughter doesn’t want when you have lots of options for friend groups and programs of study. I wouldn’t necessarily write off large schools.

        1. I said the same thing upthread, but am in mod again for some reason I can’t understand.

          Agree completely about large schools.

        2. I we t to a large state school and agree with this. I would also recommend she check out Grinnell in Iowa. Everyone I know who we there is super chill and nice. But I couldn’t live that rurally.

    5. No kids and 20 years out of college so I don’t have super current advice (I suspect every school is more toxic now than it was then), but one of the things that helped me the most was hearing from older friends at my high school where they applied and what they thought of the schools they attended. First hand experience is much better than hiring someone! Also, don’t rule out schools just because of the presence of Greek life. I was very much like your daughter, but went to a school where about half the students were in frats or sororities and had a very strong party culture and I still loved it. The other half had all kinds of amazing things going on and it didn’t matter to us what happened in the frats. All the other options matter a lot more than whether there’s Greek life present, and I would have missed out on an amazing college experience if I’d been too judgy about that.

    6. this kind of sounds like my experience at northwestern – i ignored the Greek life and parties, and although it’s a big university my college was small. i don’t remember it being overly competitive even though it’s top 20 i think (but choir/theater can obviously be very competitive there considering the music and theater schools).

      1. Agree. I was Greek at Northwestern, and enjoyed it, but if someone didn’t want to be Greek, so be it — it didn’t matter one way or the other.

    7. If she’s open to school in Canada I would say that Queen’s University in Kingston has this vibe but may be bigger than she is looking for. Some smaller ski hills in the area. McGill Uni in Montreal in also close enough to Mont Tremblant for weekend skiing.

      1. McGill seems like way more of a party school than she’s looking for. I went there for a debate tournament and it’s the only time in my (admittedly very sheltered!) life that I’ve people doing cocaine.

        1. I went to McGill and no one did cocaine that I know of. I definitely feel like school is what you make of it though and I wasn’t hanging out with the intense party crowd. I did a liberal arts undergrad and it was great – good teachers, good atmosphere, great city and much cheaper than equivalent education in the US (and there is a big contingent of American students for that reason).

      2. As a Canadian I disagree re: Queen’s. It’s super elite and a party school simultaneously.

      3. Queens and McGill are not for OPs daughter, they’re two of the best schools in the world, hyper competitive and produces Canadian leaders not psychologists.

        If OP is interested in Canada we do have smaller schools though like Mount Allison, St Francis Xavier, and Royal Roads.

        1. This is a very judgy comment. Also, psychology undergrad degrees in the US almost invariably do not result in psychologists.

          2. I don’t think it’s judgy, I think it’s practical. It doesn’t sound like OP wants a hypercompetitive school that’s focused on producing future world leaders.

      4. Fellow Queen’s grad here, and always one to suggest it. It is a larger university but the set up of campus makes it seem smaller. They also do a good job with international students – early move in, special programs, if you are not Canadian. I also cannot state enough how much having a lower drinking age makes university so much better because you can go to pubs, etc. to hang out rather than being limited to house parties.

        1. Being able to legally go to bars does seem safer. So much sexual assault happens at fraternity and house parties on college campuses in the US.

    8. Look at the New England schools. I don’t mean the ritzy private schools, but more like University of Vermont, NH, Maine. IDK which of those is the best academic school, but they are generally laid back areas with lots of skiing and all. The truly ambitious have gone on to the small private schools, have aspired to move to Boston and NYC. While I’m sure there is some social justice warrior stuff going on, state schools are diverse in that sense with student bodies that are large enough people can have very different interests and still find groups to fit into. Same with making art, choir – those will exist at every sizeable school. IDK how you avoid partying. The more your school is in the middle of nowhere which you need for skiing purposes, the more you’ll have partying. But again big enough school, you’ll find non party groups too.

      1. U of Vermont came to my mind, too. I didn’t go there but knew someone who did; she talked up the friendly community and location. And the skiing :) I also know some Colby alum who loved it.

        I’d encourage her to look at honors programs within larger public colleges. Some can be cutthroat – in mine, there was a lot of “see how smart I am????” – but I also had access to lots of support and facetime with professors that would have been harder to get otherwise. Larger schools might have more robust research facilities as well, which could be useful depending on what kind of psych she wants to do.

      2. We have family friends whose kids were world-ranked ski jumpers and they went to Dartmouth. Ski culture is really big there. Not surprisingly.

    9. What your daughter thinks she wants and what she might actually want when she is in college are two different things. Most schools where there are serious students will have _some_ cutthroat aspect, but many liberal arts colleges are supportive, even if they have high standards to get in. In college, if she doesn’t want to be around Greek life or partying, she need not be, regardless of the school–college is where people find their tribe, but also find themselves. No one will make her go to frat parties, and she will find her peeps.

      I would look at the USNWR or Princeton Review guides that talk a little bit about each school’s personality. Most schools are very competitive to get into, but that doesn’t mean they’re competitive or cutthroat once you’re there. It’s easy to select for size, but if she uses selectivity criteria to find a “less cutthroat” school, she’s going to get a school that is full of less-serious students. In any social environment, you can choose your friends and ignore certain acquaintances–if the crazy pre-med or pre-finance kids are awful, she can spend less time with them. This is a life lesson she needs to learn, and of course you can set her up for this, but if she’s in an IB program, give her the resources to do the research and start looking herself, and then also give her guidelines about budget, and see if she can’t find a few schools she would love. Off the top of my head, schools that are liberal arts but supportive learning environments, according to my friends, included Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Amherst, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, Fairfield College, Colgate, Wellesley.

      I went to Stanford, and while there were plenty of premed kids and we took finals seriously, my roommates and I never discussed grades, ever. It was just presumed that everyone there was smart, and so it wasn’t worth talking about.

      1. +1 on the competiveness part. I was a biology major at an Ivy, so there was certainly a bit of the stereotypical premed attitude in some of those classes, but otherwise nobody talked about grades or seemed to care about that stuff at all. The assumption was that everyone was smart enough to do well and so there was no point in competing.

      2. +1 to your second paragraph. I went to MIT, it wasn’t cutthroat at all despite being a top tier school. But there is definitely a range. I got cutthroat vibes at Johns Hopkins (I think due to all the premeds?) and didn’t apply there. My husband did undergrad at Cornell and from what he tells me it sounded more cutthroat than MIT (we were both in non-bio STEM).

      3. +1 on all of this. College is a place to find your people. It’s ok (and expected!) if there are people who aren’t your people too.

        Stanford undergrad was awesome—my people did not talk about grades or view each other as competition.

        One caveat: I went to grad school in a small southern city. I found my people, but it wasn’t an easy city in which to be in an interracial relationship. I would have a long talk with my kids if they wanted to go to that university.

        1. An undergrad I used to tutor transferred away from Stanford to a SLAC for a better fit. I felt a bit aghast since the SLAC didn’t just have the opportunities that exist at Stanford, but really, it is okay to want to go to a SLAC and wise to know that in advance.

    10. She should look at small liberal arts schools with no greek life and then just visit — she’ll get a vibe or not. Off the top of my head this sounds like Bowdoin or Carleton but YMMV.

      1. Wholeheartedly agree. The northeast is teeming with small liberal arts schools like this. I transferred from my first school because I had chosen it based on rankings and lists instead of the vibe I got from visiting campus.

      4. I thought that Bowdoin had a big drinking culture (even if Greeks aren’t a thing there).

        1. The one guy I know who went to Bowdoin was a very hard partier. To be fair, there’s not a ton to do in Maine in the winter except drink (tongue in cheek… I love Maine!). But I think it’s your social group more than anything and you can probably find like-minded people at most schools.

      5. I haven’t seen it anywhere else upthread, but Whitman is definitely worth a look, too! I did a year at Colorado College before transferring to Boston College (long story) and while the people were amazing, the learning format was not for me. I also want to echo that a Greek presence on campus =/= mandatory involvement with Greek life.

      6. Was also going to suggest Carleton! I have siblings who went there from California and loved it.

    11. My first reaction as you describe this perfect school is that it doesn’t exist, but that her idea of what she wants college to be can absolutely exist in any number of schools! So while I can’t answer your question about how to find a school that is a fit, I do wonder if it might be helpful to reframe her thinking a little. The bulk of her college experience will come from what she does rather than where she does it.

    12. fwiw, I found my experience at an elite school not to be cutthroat, perhaps because the higher-ranked your school, the less your class rank matters for your next opportunity.

      1. Same. The hard part was getting in. We didn’t worry much about grades or competition, and we got a lot of individualized attention from faculty, so it felt less like we were competing for opportunities and more like we were being shepherded to opportunities that were a really good fit.

        1. I went to Princeton and same. It’s eye-roll inducing for sure, but the general attitude was that everyone that made it in is smart and special in some way (art, music, sports, social impact, etc.). No need to compete.

    13. Not a small liberal arts college, but I went to Washington University in St. Louis and it fits the bill in every other way. My college friends were all lovable, smart nerds. We are still smart lovable nerds as we age. Greek life is less than 25% of the students.

      Definitely no weekend skiing though!

    14. I don’t have kids going through this yet but I work in college admissions. Check out Colleges That Change Lives.

      1. +1. mom and daughter should both read this book and go visit some of those schools. most, perhaps even all, of them are going to give her some discounting even if the family doesn’t qualify for need-based aid, and they’re more collaborative than cutthroat environments.

    15. The mention of skiing perked my attention here. I went to a very small liberal arts college in a location very close to prime skiing destinations. That was one of the things that made my experience terrible. A lot of students deliberately chose this college for the skiing access, and it created a weird competitive atmosphere where everyone tried to one-up each other on their weekend skiing activities. In the spring and autumn it switched to backpacking and camping. Plus, skiing is NOT an inexpensive hobby, and that meant that during the week, a lot of my fellow students pretended to be poor, and on Friday afternoon they loaded their fancy SUVs to go to ski areas where season tickets are in the four figures. That hypocrisy really bothered me.

      Remember that the college itself need not fulfill everything your daughter wants. You may want to think beyond the college itself and think about the entire community in which the college is situated, because the college itself (and especially colleges today) may not be capable of providing everything she wants. In that sense, think about what the city or town itself provides: are there galleries to visit, symphonies to attend, businesses or government agencies with internships in interesting areas, a major sports team? Also think about whether your daughter is the kind of kid who easily makes friends with adults–does she want somewhere where she might end up having a great friend who is an older grad student, or does she only want people her own age? I was the kind of teenager who was always more comfortable around people older than me, and I really missed older adults when I was on an exclusively undergrad campus. In contrast, I went to law school with a lot of second-career students, and most of my friends came from that group.

    16. Clark University in Worcester has an excellent psychology program. Mt. Holyoke, Amherst College?

    17. Take a look at Kalamazoo College in Michigan. My sister went there and this describes her experience. I’d look for places where everyone lives on campus and that do not have Greek life as a good filter. I’d also think about the midwest or the northwest for geography.

      1. +1 to midwest, or one of the nice smaller schools in Oregon or Washington.

      2. +1 to K College, which is in my hometown. I had several friends go there, they all loved it, and they were all quite different (slick-haired striver guy, studious hard science volleyballer, study-hard/play-hard science freak, theater major, social scientist/SJW, etc.). You can find skiing in Western Michigan as well, with some more robust slopes a few hours north. Also, everybody does a study abroad program there, so a semester somewhere in Europe near the Alps is very much a possibility.

        And there are plenty of lakes for water skiing when the weather is finally nice.

    19. I think you get a pretty good sense of school culture from visiting, especially if you can do an overnight visit. I visited Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Johns Hopkins during spring break my junior year (it was easier to get into college back then!). I crossed JHU and Princeton off my list after visiting. I liked Harvard and loved Yale and MIT. I applied early decision to Yale and early action to MIT. I got waitlisted at Yale and got into MIT so I never applied to any other colleges and went to MIT. I had a great experience overall, and especially socially. I think an Ivy probably would have been a bit better for me academically and a bit worse socially. But like some other people have said, pretty much every college has a huge amount of diversity in terms of student personalities and interests, so you can find “your people” wherever you go.

    20. This is … a lot of hand-wringing. While every college campus is going to have a vibe, it’s also what you make of it.

      1. This. Even at party schools, there are serious students and (gasp) people who don’t even drink or party. Not everyone is into hookup culture. Some finance bros are just guys (and women) who liked math. Would you say the same about CPAs? Some Greek letter organizations have bible studies and/or Shabbat meals. It really varies and your specific tribe at any school is what you make it and what you make of it.

        1. I’m kinda scratching my head at this entire question. I was a lot like the OP’s daughter. I ended up at State U because that’s what my family could afford. I had a liberal arts major and several minors. Classes felt plenty stimulating. My smarter friends were in the Honors Program, which attracted lots of super-smart kids who wanted that smaller college experience within a bigger school. Yes, Greek life was a thing, but the majority of the campus wasn’t Greek. I had no problem finding peers who weren’t super into partying.

          1. Agree, I work at a big state university with a fine but not stellar academic reputation. We have an honors college and plenty of opportunities for super bright kids to take grad classes or do independent work with professors. There are learning communities so kids can live with others who share their academic interests. Our top CS grads get jobs at big Silicon Valley companies. My husband is a professor who had an undergrad do research with him, and that undergrad just got into the PhD programs at Berkeley and Cornell, among other good schools. I’m not saying networking connections at a fancy private college don’t help, but if you’re a top student at a state school you’re going to be very well positioned career-wise. And pretty much everybody finds their niche socially. State schools are also way cheaper. In-state tuition here is $10k and even out of state tuition is substantially less than what elite private colleges charge.

          2. Are you me?

            I do find it interesting how consumer, location, and experience-focused American universities have become. I mean, I get it that when you’re paying $$$, you have certain expectations. But (as a solid but not exceptional high school student) I was told by my parents that they would pay for in-state and nothing more, and my life has never really been limited by that choice. I lived to tell the tale and went to the top program in the country in my field for my master’s. I had a ton of options to pick from at my large school, and I think it’s easier to “get away” from elements you don’t like at a big school than a small school.

            I’m sure elite institutions are worth it for students who qualify, but I honestly don’t think my friends who paid through the nose to go to an expensive liberal arts school had any better of an education or a better experience on average than I did. And a lot of them came out with huge loans.

          3. I went to an elite private school and feel like it opened a lot of doors for me. But I also feel like it would not have been worth major debt. I was lucky that my parents could pay out of pocket.

          4. The value of a top, top school is that everyone* is brilliant. I don’t mean “everyone is smart just like your AP History class in suburban high school;” I mean, everyone is really freakin brilliant, hard working, and interesting. It’s a really unique environment, and because everyone is so sharp, classes are taught at a much higher level.

            I have no doubt that people go to a wide variety of universities and get fine educations. I do doubt that it’s the same education. Many of my friends in law school went to fine state schools, arrived at our T20 law school, and said that it was different. The kids who went to top undergrads said that it was maybe more work, but did not find the “everyone is brilliant and your professors demand more out of you” atmosphere to be a change from undergrad.

            I can’t say if it’s worth paying more for that – probably depends – I can say that it is different.

          5. Yeah, it’s not the same education but it’s a good enough education, and in my opinion there’s no way going to a super prestigious school (even the biggest of the big names like Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Princeton) is worth hundreds of thousands in debt. I would only send my kids to one of those schools if I could pay nearly the full cost out of pocket.

          6. I went to an Ivy undergrad, a top public for grad school (also taught there), and am a professor at a mid range public. I have extremely mixed feelings about the disparities in our education system and I’m not entirely sure whether it’s worth it at today’s tuition if you don’t get financial aid (most of the Ivies are free if you make less than six figures), but it is truly a very different experience at one of the top private schools. The students are all super smart, there are so many resources available, and everything is oriented toward helping students succeed. In contrast, the public universities where I’ve taught seem to be oriented around putting up as many barriers to success as possible and the students are much more of a mixed bag, though the top students are certainly as good as the Ivy students. The classes are taught at a lower level, but also with a fundamental disrespect for the students, and we’re so strapped for resources that we just can’t provide the same quality of education. On top of that, the outside of the classroom resources were extraordinary. Almost none of my students do anything besides work customer service jobs, while I was able to participate in all kinds of amazing activities and events for “free” and even my jobs were in research labs on campus.

          7. I have no doubt that the top private schools have an eclectic, interesting, highly motivated student body and that a public U isn’t the same. However, unless you’re incredibly wealthy or willing to take out $$$ loans (which the OP is not), I can’t see how it would be worth it, in the end.

          8. Yeah, but I’m not talking about elite institutions, which I stated in my comment I absolutely believe are worth it. I’m speaking about “pretty darn good” liberal arts schools, which I don’t think are worth it if you’re putting a lot on student loans. If you can afford it out of pocket or have a large amount covered by grants or scholarships, then those liberal arts options are great. I just don’t think the value is there if it’s straining your budget.

        2. I did go to an elite institution and it was a great experience, but I don’t think it’s worth taking on major debt for. If parents can pay out of pocket or get need-based aid at Harvard, great! But if not, state U or a lower ranked private school on a merit scholarship will be just fine. There is no universe in which it makes sense to me to borrow $100k+ for undergrad, even at Harvard or Yale or Stanford. The ROI is just not there.

    21. You said no green life, but my college had a co-Ed “service fraternity” that has a lot of volunteer projects and a high social component that a lot of kids found to be fun and make a large school seem small and homey. They made good connections across majors and class years. Maybe look into clubs like that as a way to help find her tribe (which can exist at any school — students aren’t fungible).

        1. Yes! I wasn’t in it, but my friends who were in it had great experiences. I would recommend to a kid of mine who probably would like to be in some sort of smaller social club but is on the spectrum and I can’t imagine him/her being anything but overwhelmed at the typical rush experience. IIRC, for APO, you just *join* and go to the social and volunteer activities that you want to go to.

    22. I dont know what state you are in, but it sounds like you have a State U budget. In SC, check out College of Charleston. IN NC, UNCG and UNCA. In VA, William and Mary and Longwood.

      It is private, but people I know rave about Muhlenburg in the Lehigh Valley of PA.

    23. This sounds pretty similar to me 20 years ago. These were the schools I applied to: Swarthmore, Wesleyan University, Connecticut College, Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Macalester, Carleton.

    24. That’s like easily 50 schools. School is what you make of it. Stop teaching her to think like this.

    26. FWIW, Wellesley has the reputation of being one of the more “intense” women’s colleges in terms of academic pressure, though it depends a lot on majors and student activities. It is a totally amazing school, but it’s a lot of Type As and a lot of super studious types. Barnard has a similar reputation. I’d encourage her to look at Mount Holyoke, Smith, St. John’s College (Annapolis and NM campuses), the Claremont Colleges, maybe Bard?

      1. Two more things: St. John’s did this interesting “tuition reset” thing which means that you don’t have to screw around as much over merit/financial aid stuff if your family income is in the area above the median income but not in the “made of money” bracket. I thought this was really refreshing as a parent, esp. since tuition costs at private colleges have risen at something like 3x the rate of inflation.

    27. If she thinks she might want to do a psych PhD and become a professor, grad school (and then the connections you make in postdoc and beyond) matter more than undergrad institution. My SIL is a psychology professor who went to a pretty mediocre state school for undergrad.

    28. Your “unicorn” college actually sounds like a typical SLAC to me? It certainly describes the school I attended when I attended (and yeah finance recruited there, and that was not my scene, but that didn’t detract from the campus culture; it wasn’t even all “economics” majors who took those jobs — sometimes it was people with particularly arcane humanities majors who knew they would never get a job in their fields / didn’t want to go to graduate school).

      I also wouldn’t necessarily trust the news if other sources disagree. One event can make the news, but it may not characterize campus life. Princeton Review was spot on when I was a college student, but I don’t know about now.

      Schools like Oberlin and Amherst are proud of being wokely political even when it leads to adolescent drama, and have been for years. They certainly were when I was a college student (I am pretty fond of Oberlin, but I have stories). Not every school has that heritage or tradition.

    29. Mom of a 2022 graduate here with my advice:

      (1) Cost is going to be the biggest driver. If you make six figures, getting any kind of serious financial aid is going to be difficult. (If you are talking about how seriously she will take the SATs, I assume you do not have an academic superstar, 4.3 GPA student on your hands.) The small private schools are expensive so I recommend putting together a realistic budget on the assumption she will get minimal aid and then come back with how much you can afford to spend. It will be a lot easier to give advice once we know the budget.

      (2) Fit is so important to college happiness and success so I understand your emphasis on her finding a school where she will be happy. However you might want to consider something slightly larger than the tiny liberal arts colleges people here are talking about. The honors college at a bigger school might work. My daughter went to a mid-sized public school (around 24K) with some Greek life but found it pretty easy to avoid the partying and meet “her” people. There is less pressure for everyone to fit into a specific mindset when there are more people. It also makes it easier to explore majors (mine started as an arts major and ended up with a science degree).

      (3) The public universities in smaller states might work. Does she want to go to a school in a college town or a big city? How important is weather (we rejected Vermont because my kid has never dealt with serious weather)? How far away does she want to go from home? Those are all concerns. If she says “I don’t know” or “I don’t care” take her to visit different kinds of schools.

      1. ETA – I would take any advice from someone who graduated more than 10 years ago about their culture of their school with a grain of salt. One of my daughter’s friends went to her mother’s alma mater and she found that the culture was exponentially more cut throat. The school was full of 4.0+ students with near perfect SAT scores and they were incredibly obsessed with being the “best.”

    30. Back in the day (1998), I had a disk I bought at CompUSA that allowed me to answer a series of multiple choice questions about what I wanted in a college and it spit out a list. The list it spit out was pretty accurate for the places I was already looking and gave me a few other ideas. I can’t imagine there’s not something like this now.

      2. Right? Like something to weed out based on:
        setting — big city urban campus (NYU), suburban (American U), college town (Princeton), rural (University of the South)
        size of undergrad
        tuition
        R&B (can be v. expensive) fees
        location in the US
        level of competitiveness to get in

        That alone narrows it down significantly.

      1. I grew up in MD and I think this is a super idea. I wish there was something like it in my current state of residence.

      2. St. Mary’s College of Maryland is a small, public college located on the water in southern Maryland, for those who might mistakenly identify it as a Catholic women’s college (happens all the time).

    32. Maybe also look at Colgate? I visited it a million years ago when I was looking at colleges, and it gave me the vibe you’re talking about. I ended up not going there because I wanted the exact opposite – a larger, public campus – but it had a good reputation then.

    33. Based on your description, and assuming Oberlin was the “almost perfect” school – I would look at Kenyon. It was a “safety” school for me, but for that reason I received a half tuition scholarship that made it jump to the top of my list. It’s still a highly ranked school, with excellent professors, a gorgeous campus, and passionate, engaged students. The other two that come to mind are Bowdoin and Carleton, although the aid there will not be as good.

      1. Kenyon is beautiful and does provide merit aid. It’s been 20 years but I remember the town being REALLY small when I visited.

    34. Things may have changed, but this sounds like Davidson in my college years (Note: I did not go there).

      1. OMFG — Davidson is expensive and won’t give merit aid b/c everyone there is deserving of merit aid. Cross this off your list! It is also TINY and produces finance bros (right outside of CLT), so there is nowhere to go if you don’t like the dominant culture there.

        1. “won’t give merit aid b/c everyone there is deserving of merit aid”

          This is not a thing! Even at very good schools they can always identify some students who are more qualified than others. Not every school gives merit aid, but it’s not because “every kid deserves merit aid.”

          2. Very few schools have single digit acceptance rates. Lots of very good schools give merit aid to buy students away from the best schools.

          3. The University of Chicago and Duke have single digit acceptance rates and give merit aid.

        2. But Davidson admits on a need-blind basis and guarantees that all those who attend wil have their financial needs met for the full cost of attendance without loans. That seems like a pretty awesome tradeoff for no merit aid.

          1. Pretty much all elite schools have need-blind admissions and promise to meet 100% of demonstrated need. I don’t think Davidson’s terribly unique in that regard. The problem is that the school’s opinion of whether or not the parents can pay is often different then the parent’s opinion of whether or not they can pay. I will say things have changed A LOT in terms of aid for upper middle class families though. My parents paid 100% of my cost of attendance at a very expensive elite private school. If my daughter was applying today and could get in, my husband and I would owe nothing. Literally, not a dime. And we have a higher income (even adjusted for inflation) than my parents did 20 years ago.

    35. Are you familiar with the Colleges That Change Lives list? “CTCL” for short, I think. It sounds like exactly what she is looking for, so I would start there and take lots of college visits to let the colleges sell themselves to you. You can learn a ton about the colleges from visiting, even though, after a while, the tours all say the same thing. One of my daughters and I made a College Tour Bingo card. Climbing wall? Lazy river? Free check-out of camping equipment? Health services? Bingo! Anyway–you are absolutely not out of line with thinking she can get merit money at a lot of schools even if that SAT doesn’t come in at her target. There is a lot of merit money to go around at every level short of HYPS.

    36. Maybe look into schools in the PNW?
      There are plenty of smaller, liberal arts schools with smart (and nice!) people. Many of these schools rely on merit aid to bring in students. Whitman, University of Puget Sound, Willamette, Pacific University, Reed College, Lewis & Clark, University of Portland etc.

    38. So, I have two in college. The place you’re looking for doesn’t exist. College students are largely unhappy right now, and that has a lot to do with spending the last few years in a pandemic, like the rest of us, but they lost some memory making times.

      There’s pretty much always going to be a Greek life but for many universities it’s strictly off campus so you may look for that.

      I don’t know how to tell you how to get the perfect small liberal arts education but there are tons and tons of universities who do this. We lucked into the Hutchins program at Sonoma State for my oldest which as far as I’m concerned is a small liberal arts college education at public school prices, and as a Californian, I am forever grateful for our state’s investment in higher education.

      1. https://hutchins.sonoma.edu/

        It was an “experiment” modeled after Oxford. Most of my daughter’s classes have been in small groups (10-20) who meet with the professor a couple of times a week. Once a week or less all the groups gather in a lecture hall for a larger discussion or presentation.

    41. OP here. We are talking about 4.5 GPA, aiming for 1500-1550 SAT, decent extracurriculars but not like a violin prodigy or an Olympic athlete, girl from the suburbs. Very solid but not remarkable; did not win a National science fair or similar. I just don’t think it’s worth saddling her with $40K -$80K of debt for a bachelor’s degree. I agree that the name is more important for the grad degree. I know she’s not getting a scholarship to Wellesley or Williams; the question is what are similar schools that do give aid.

        1. I feel like State U Honors college is the way to go for this group. It will feel like the 80K schools but connect her up with a larger localish alumni group, which in the long run will probably be more important. Like the Honors College at USC.

      2. Ok, that makes a big difference. She may not be an Olympic athlete but she’s very competitive at the best schools in the country. I’m less familiar with SLACs but for universities I know Johns Hopkins, Wash U and U of Chicago all give merit aid and someone with those stats would be *very* competitive for it. Getting a full ride at any of those will definitely be challenging, but getting some aid that could make up the difference between the total cost and what you can pay is easier. And don’t forget top tier public schools like UCLA, U Mich, UVa, UW-Madison, etc. My husband got a full ride (including room and board) at Michigan with worse stats than your daughter. I know things are generally more competitive now than 15 years ago, but still.

        I also would not cross off the Ivies, Stanford and MIT without doing more research about financial aid. My understanding is that if your household income is under about $300k and you don’t have disproportionate non-retirement assets (e.g., a huge inheritance just sitting in the bank), you can expect some degree of financial aid at the most elite private schools. You’re not looking at a full ride if your HHI is $250k, but you might very well get enough to make up the difference between the cost of attendance and the $50k you can comfortably pay. It’s changed a lot in the last 10-15 years in terms of aid for upper middle class families.

        1. She is definitely not “very” competitive for merit aid at those schools. I’m not saying it is impossible, but that describes a somewhat typical applicant for WashU and especially U of C. Given the family’s serious financial constraints of no loans permitted, I wouldn’t bank on those options. They would require merit aid which is a long shot.

          1. Getting some merit aid is much easier than getting a full ride. If the family can pay $50k/year she doesn’t need a full ride. Certainly college admissions is a crapshoot and she shouldn’t expect significant aid at all the schools I listed. I wouldn’t even necessarily expect admission to all of them. There’s just a degree of randomness to it. But personally I would be surprised if someone with those stats couldn’t get some merit aid at a school like Wash U, and if they didn’t I would assume they weren’t a strong essay writer or didn’t have great recommendations, since those are the other big variables.

      3. Then congrats she’s going to state school. Stop filling her head with dreams you won’t let her access

      4. I can’t believe the people who are saying she is destined for a state school, notwithstanding that that is the exact opposite of what she wants. For reference, my son with slightly-worse stats and had tons of options that, with automatic merit aid, would have come in well below your price range. You are right that there is no need to saddle her with undergrad debt with those stats. We gave my son a $25,000/year budget, give or take, and really–tons of small LACs were in range. If you can stomach it, go hang out at College Confidential for a bit to get a feel for where kids with her stats are going.

      1. Thanks—she is interested in Canadian schools but we just don’t know anything about them so this is a good starting point.

      2. She could consider UBCO in Kelowna – beautiful situation, small school, great profs because everyone wants to live in Kelowna. My arts kids loves it there. Student housing a challenge after first year but if you have 50K USD/yr she could do it even at international student rates.

    43. Very timely as we are taking our daughter to her first year of college next week. Due to covid we weren’t able to visit as many schools as we would have liked and it made for a busy and stressful senior fall. First piece of advice go to as many schools as possible as close by as you can just to get a feel for the different campuses- big, medium, small and in what type of location (urban, suburban, rural). If colleges do visits to her school or your town, go and see what they are about. Our daughter’s school had regularly scheduled visits from representatives which helped. Her high school also had a “relationship” with many colleges/universities so this was also helpful in gaging her acceptance and fit. Work with a college advisor on rounding out the application but specifically for the essay. This was a much bigger deal than what we had thought and well worth the time and effort my daughter put into it. SATs/ACTs- so many colleges are optional, high scores are always good but more effort on essay and perhaps actual employment (restaurant, retail, etc) seemed to have a higher weight. But most importantly, please be upfront with exactly what you are willing to contribute and whatever you decide about loans. A few school friends had their dreams dashed because the parents weren’t upfront.

      And even after all of that, you may be surprised by what your daughter chooses. Our daughter was very set on a particular college on the East Coast and really wrote and planned everything around that school—until. Until that second visit during the school year when she sat in on classes and realized that the culture wasn’t her and a 6 hour plane ride home was just too far. So massive change before applications due and she decided smaller school just 1.5 hour plane ride (much better weather and employment/community opportunities). And because she was a “competitive get” for this school, they offered a very generous merit scholarship where we weren’t expecting one at all. And if we are lucky, she will adjust and find her place here and if not, there’s so many more choices.

      Best of luck!

    44. It’s been 9 years since she graduated, but my sister really loved Dartmouth and it was a very welcoming place. I believe my parents only had to pay around $10,000 a year. It was much cheaper than UVA for us.

  6. How do you all display photos at home? I’d love to display vacation and other photos but I’m not sure how to do so in a way that doesn’t look like college dorm decor.

    1. +1 to whoever was loving on Nixplay today, the digital photo frame is great

      I also have a few framed photographs on the mantle and on desks.

    2. Mostly photobooks (one for each year of my kid’s life and one for each big pre-kid vacation). I guess that isn’t exactly “display” but they’re still really nice to have. I have a couple photos framed in my home office, and we have professional portraits from our wedding and a recent family photo session on canvas in our master bedroom. I feel weird about having personal photos in public areas of our home, so we only have art in our living room, kitchen and dining areas. I guess we also have some travel photos from our honeymoon in our basement.

    3. I love Mixtiles. They’re easy to order, easy to arrange, and don’t look dorm-y. And you can change them up with the seasons.

    5. I don’t. Once upon a time I had a few small framed photos on console or side tables but I really don’t love them. Love the people in them still!

      I’ve never loved family photos on walls. 99% of the time I just think it looks corny. But, I think it could look cool to do a really over the top gallery type wall in a super casual space like a mud room or den or closed kitchen.

      I’m picturing the kind of kitchen you’d have in a large older home with a swinging door to the butler’s pantry and black and white checkered floor tiles, and the kids come down the back staircase from their bedrooms and eat breakfast before school and the wall behind the big farm table is just plastered with black and white photos of everyone in different sizes but with matching frames.

      Oh, actually it would be cool in the back hallway staircase too. But not in the foyer or the dining room or over the mantle. I think family photos are best in private casual spaces.

    6. I have a large framed map on a side wall, with a gallery of smaller frames around it. The smaller frames just have a piece of construction paper with the name of a destination on them, until we actually visit that place, then we replace the paper with our favorite vacation photo. Its a great conversation starter, and I love looking at it to remember our vacations or to plan our next one.

      One thing I’ve always loved is family pictures in a hallway where you can see the passage of time as you walk down the hall.

      1. Ok my travel addict self LOVES this idea.

        We have a scratch off US map in my daughter’s room and that’s been super fun for all of us.

    7. I have a bunch of framed photos on top of built in bookcases in the living room. They’re mostly nice frames and I’m selective about the photos and I turn most of them into black and white for a better visual look.

    8. A huge collage of photos printed onto paper with tiny suction caps (I forget what it’s called) on one small wall and I absolutely adore it.

      No dusting frames or finding hooks, easily moved.

  7. weird question, but: what do you drink in the mornings?

    the NYT had a thing today asking if anyone still drinks hot coffee, and i wanted to raise my hand to say, uh, me? (1/2 mug of black coffee with 1 scoop collagen)

    2. plain, black, pre-programmed drip hot Folgers does the trick over here.

      On weekends we go ~fancy~ with nice beans, grinder, and French press.

      1. Same. Regular ole pre-programmed Folgers every weekday. Splash of vanilla creamer. Same for husband but he drinks it with almond milk.
        Weekends much of the same unless we are out and about and get a fancy espresso.

    3. My first cup of coffee has to be hot! I drink fancy coffee from my local roastery made at home in a drip brewer. Usually a cup of iced coffee in the afternoon but only in the summer. Sometimes a splash of oatmilk but usually I take it black.

    4. In the morning, I drink black coffee (hot) and water (cold).

      Times of day/week/year I drink cold coffee: zero.
      Times of day/week/year I drink sweetened or flavored coffee: zero.
      Times of day/week/year I drink coffee with milk or creamer of any kind: zero.

    5. Not a coffee drinker. I have Earl Grey tea every morning or if I’m near Starbucks I’ll have a chai latte.

      1. +1 Earl Grey regular here, and have you tried the iced chai latte with pumpkin cold foam? Oh my….

    8. Water bottle of 24 ounces, starting right when I wake up, usually done by the time I’m dressed/made up for the day. Then a black hot coffee. Can’t drink it piping hot, but usually let it sit for 30 mins (sometimes before) before I take my first sip. I like iced coffee, I order it, but find I don’t drink it all (sometime only take a few sips!) so I’d actually say I like hot more than iced, no matter the season.

    9. Cold brew or iced coffee. Check out the article in the Boston Globe about Bostonians and their iced coffee in the winter.

      1. Same here. I make my own.
        If I’m out, I like fancy lattes or a dirty chai.

    10. Um what.
      Yes I drink hot coffee every morning and every lunch time. Black. I make it at home.

    12. Saw that! I’ll be the last hot coffee drinker on earth. Hot coffee every morning even in the summer. I just don’t like iced coffee unless it’s zhushed up with enough sweetness and creaminess that I’m actually having a milkshake. I’ll take a Diet Coke over an iced coffee any day.

    14. Hot homemade or work coffee with half n half in the Fall/Winter/Spring and homemade cold brew with half n half in the Summer. I make big batches of cold brew concentrate every ~2 weeks (also make coffee ice cubes, which help make it feel fancy).

    16. First cup is hot coffee with oat milk creamer at home. Second cup is a nice black tea at the office or in court. Third cup of the morning, if I’m in the office instead of court, is an herbal tea. Second cup used to be hot coffee too when there was a conveniently located coffee shop.

    18. Hot coffee, like the Good Lord intended. I’m kidding about the righteousness of hot coffee, but if it’s good enough for Special Agent Dale Cooper, it’s good enough for me. I’m GenX, and the youngsters can keep their iced fancy drinks, though I do like that oat milk they devised.

      1. Same here, like Dale Cooper (my first crush?) I start my day with a d*mn fine cup of coffee. :)

      3. So funny! This is definitely a generational thing imo. My Gen X (14 yrs older) BIL does not get my millenial spouse’s love for iced coffee at ALL. Same with my other good Gen X friends.

    19. Work days: about a french press of black coffee that I make the night before and chill in the fridge overnight + about 3 cups of water. It isn’t particularly strong coffee. I drink that over the 2-3 hours before I get hungry for breakfast. On weekends: warm lemon water and a fancy chai iced coffee I make at home (moka pot over ice, chai tea bag, little bit of brown sugar, oat milk).

    20. one cup of coffee, black, hot. Cut the intake way way back from 3 or 4 mugs/cups to 1 cup. got rid of most of my large coffee mugs too and only kept the smaller cups. anxiety is way better.
      maybe an afternoon chai latte if im in the office, chilly, and the weather is bad or running into work issues.
      water the rest of the day.

    23. One mug of hot black coffee made from fancy locally roasted beans in my aeropress.
      Sometimes a hot herbal tea midmorning.
      Sometimes a hot herbal tea midafternoon.
      Sometimes a hot herbal tea before bed.
      Sometimes a hot black coffee before bed, but only on Fridays.

      Iced coffee once or twice a year when it is really, really hot, and then it has oat milk and a little brown sugar and cinnamon in it. It must be filled with frozen coffee ice cubes and not plain water cubes.

    24. Irish breakfast tea with a bit of skim milk.

      Coffee makes me a bit jittery. If it’s an especially bad morning I’ll make a k cup, usually green mountain.

    25. (Hot) Earl Grey tea with milk. Made at home because it doesn’t taste right anywhere else.

    27. Xillennial. It’s single origin, recently roasted, home-ground, and pour over, but I drink hot coffee every morning, preferably with additive-free heavy cream.

    28. Hot coffee with creamer. Three our of my four closest girlfriends also drink hot coffee in the morning. I had no idea this was falling out of favor?

    29. Hot coffee always. Ambient temperature and season are irrelevant. (No, hot coffee in the summer won’t make you feel hotter. People in desert climates drink hot drinks). No sugar, milk or anything else. I will occasionally have a capucino when I need something midway between a drink and a snack.

  8. I just discovered someone is doing a study on the ‘displaced inhabitants’ of my house, it was an illegal flop house and menace to the neighborhood before I bought it. Hopefully this study is a flop, but I’m a little worried it will get enough attention that I’ll face threats. Thanks for letting me vent.

      1. Well my neighbours love me, I’ve met at least 30 random folks who have walked up to me in the garden and thanked me for reducing crime and making the neighbourhood more pleasant. However this study is being done by an org that considers themselves low income advocates. So I’m sure the study will be full of lies and inaccuracies and will probably portray me as some sort of a developer, when in reality I’m a middle class lady earning 70k/year and self financing a reno. I’m not afraid of my actual neighbours turning on me, just random internet people.

    2. Not a lawyer, but since it’s a private residence is this something where a strongly worded cease and desist letter from a lawyer might get them to re-direct their research, or at least leave the identifying information out of the study? I suppose it would be interesting to know what happened to the junkies once the property changed hands, but that could be achieved without giving their actual former address.

      1. I’m not sure, I’ll look into it! Unfortunately there’s already a little bit of damage done since the solicitation for participants has my address, which is how I came across it.

      2. Why would it matter if its a private residence? If they’re not lying what possible legal recourse could you have to tell them to stop?

    3. Is the study financed by a university? If so, there is likely an office that deals with ethical issues in research, which you could contact to request that steps be taken to protect your privacy.

        1. Yikes. Honestly, I really think the cease and desist letter is worth looking into. And document and screen shot the heck out of everything.

  9. Potentially an oddball question (or no question at all) but…. I’m not new to eyebrow waxing. I’ve been to a few places over the years, but have consistently gone to the same place for the last 3 years at a not-that-fancy hair salon with a “spa” attached that does waxing and facials. Due to scheduling and travel, I decided to get them done at my nail salon (different place) for the first time this past Saturday. I’ve been going to this nail salon for nails only for years and years, and they do a good job, and I have watched many women get various things waxed there, so I just said what the heck, why not.

    Exactly in the spots they waxed I’m breaking out like MAD. And where there isn’t acne, the skin is flaking off of my face. I’m at work this week/right now, and I’m straight embarrassed. What gives? It never occurred to me the wax would mess me up somehow. I don’t have atypically sensitive skin. Maybe I have an allergy to something in the wax? Idk if I really have a question here, but I just saw myself in the mirror and was puzzled.

      1. Certainly didn’t feel like it, and this reaction only showed up after about 2 days whereas (I think) a burn would have shown immediately. So odd.

    2. Are you using a retinoid or other chemical exfoliant you weren’t before? I found out (on this board, I think) that those can make your skin way more sensitive to waxes. Which explains my ANGRY eyebrow skin following my first brow wax.

      1. YES. Paula’s Choice Exfoliant. I think I was using it before but not nearly as consistently as I am now. Bingo. Thank you!!

        1. Oh yes that was me several years ago, a faithful tretinoin user, decided to get my brows threaded at one of those mall kiosks (I swear I’m usually more risk averse!) and they talked me into having my mustache area done as well. It was SO FUN walking around with a giant raw/scabby area for an upper lip for two weeks.

          And I don’t even have a mustache! Just a normal smattering of fine, colorless body hair. Those places are really good at the shame-based upsell.

  10. Allergies are driving me crazy and I’ve rubbed the skin around my eyes until it’s raw. What’s the best cream I could put on it since it’s so thin and sensitive there?

    2. Similar to other commenter, I like CeraVe healing ointment in the blue tub/tube for this

  11. on the off chance anyone knows this: has anyone lit a bookcase after purchase? what lights/methods worked best for you without having a mess of cords and a zillion holes in your bookcase? i keep finding DIY tutorials that involve stripping wires to put things together and that isn’t appealing.

  12. if you’re looking for a sign to do a THING, this is it. if you need inspiration, this is also it.

    trigger note – weight loss post

    I ised to be the very very very skinny girl. but I’d suffered from massive water retention and fat gain that was diagnosed as idiopathic (I wasn’t consuming many kcals and my arms, hands legs and feet would occasionally swell massively, think stay puff, it was nearly impossible to bend my fingers some days). I was 100. pounds overweight and always felt awful after I ate anything so never interested in eating. I’d been though 8.5 years of unsuccessful ivf and a few toxic bosses. I didn’t sleep well and felt awful all the time.

    I started wegovy in Feb. I’ve been having great success in it. today the insurance kicked back to dr to provide proof I’ve dropped and maintained a 5% body weight loss. I knew it was high, but hadn’t done the math.

    I’m down 24.4% of my starting weight.

    clothes that for last month are hanging on me.

    I have another 45 pounds to go, so please wish me further success. if you feel like you need a sign to take a step toward a big thing, you’ve got encouragement from me. I’m rooting you on from here!

    fwiw, during this journey there has been tons of work stress and diagnosis of cancer 3 and now 4 AND 5 for my mom. I have seen a lot of spider and varicose veins slow up since Feb and some more hair loss on the new dosage so not without bumps. I have no eating disorder, I did have nausea and indigestion and bloating no matter what I consumed even water.

    hth this who need a little encouragement right now.

    2. Best wishes to you, it sounds like you’ve been through a lot! I’m sorry about your mom <3

  13. Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this…I joined a team recently where I am the only woman and one of the more junior employees. My boss has repeatedly told me I would own XYZ project/workstream/client relationship, etc., but then the next day it goes to one of the men on the team. I have received nothing but positive feedback from leaders, and they know I am capable of delivering quality work.

    I don’t think it’s intentional, but at the same time, I don’t feel like I am getting the same opportunities as my male coworkers to get involved and progress my career. Anyone experience this before? How can I determine whether or not I am getting overlooked because I am female? And does anyone have any advice to deal with this other than find a new team?

    1. There is a lot I don’t know about your situation but some questions/suggestions. How new are you? If it’s six months or less, it may just be an issue of becoming more comfortable with your work product. And even though you say you’ve gotten good feedback, it might still be too soon to get deals on your own, according to internal metrics or “how we do things.” But that brings up the question of why the boss would say he’s giving you the project/client and then not. Is he getting pressure from the men on the team or does he “forget”? Without knowing how work is usually assigned, I’m not able to guess. Do people jockey or lobby for important deals? Is there a lack of work or lack of important work?

      When you joined the team, did you have discussions about how you are going to progress and learn and advance? Is there a training period or was no training ever mentioned? Do new employees jump right in or do they shadow other employees for a time and work up to being assigned as lead? Do they take the lead with a teammate as backup?

      If you haven’t, I always think a frank conversation in a meeting is a good place to start. “Boss, I have questions about workflow and assignment of deals. You had said that I would get the A project and B project but they were not ultimately assigned to me. What can we do to have me assigned projects/clients in a more regular fashion? I have the knowledge necessary to handle these on my own and would like the chance to work on challenging deals like this.” Don’t say anything like “Do you have concerns?” Listen to what he says and doesn’t say. He may have concerns but don’t put words in his mouth.

      Hope this helps. Post again if you have clarifications.

    2. You may want to repost on Monday for more replies. I suggest that when your boss says you will own “X” project that you jump right in. Say something like that’s great I’m going to go get this information from that person or set a time today with some other person. The point is to hop on it as soon as the boss says it’s yours, and involve at least one other person so you have some momentum.

      FWIW, I’ve worked with several bosses who assign the same work to different people because they are just oblivious. You should watch to see if that is happening with others and in those scenarios, you do need to jump on the work to own it. Once you’ve built more capital with your boss, you can point out when he dies this.

  14. What do you do when you are on a long run of bad luck? We made a major move a year ago for a job and bad things have happened every other week from major injury of a child to problems with the place we’re living, to having one car robbed and another in a collision, to not finding new medical providers easily or liking the ones we did find. Plus a zillion other relatively minor things. It never ends. I don’t have any joy living here but my family love it. Can’t move again for a couple years. Feeling v down about it. Anyone have a similar experience and how did you deal? Thanks.

    1. “When things fall apart” by Pema Chodron really changed my thinking about periods like this. Life is never complete, it’s never all together, and we cause ourselves a lot of suffering by thinking we’re supposed to arrive at a place where nothing ever goes wrong. It may help to think about this as just the nature of life – things can be hard, difficult things may continue to happen for the rest of your life. And celebrate what life is, with all of that embraced.

    2. You mentioned you moved for a job, you’re unable to move (implying you’ve thought about it) and everyone loves it but you. Did you not want to go to this place? Are you unhappy there in general? This is a shot in the dark but you might feel like it’s a run of bad luck because you just don’t want to be there and you’re focusing on the negatives. When something big in my life goes wrong I tend to get more annoyed at every small thing. I would be extra salty if it was a group decision and I was the one who made the sacrifice for the group to be happy. Sorry I don’t have tips to get through it but maybe getting to the root of your feelings will help.

  15. She could consider UBCO in Kelowna – beautiful situation, small school, great profs because everyone wants to live in Kelowna. I know several undergrads who love it there. Student housing a challenge after first year but if you have 50K USD/yr she could do it even at international student rates. Another option: Mount Allison in New Brunsick.

  16. I’ll try to repost on Monday, but just in case anyone is reading today and wants to help with some vicarious shopping: I’m going to a wedding in Maine the second weekend in October. I think I’ve got a dress that will do for the ceremony/reception, but there’s an event the night before for out of town guests that I’m struggling with. It’s at some sort of rooftop bar, so it will be outside (chilly, I would expect, in Maine in October). What do I wear to this??

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