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Kat Griffin is the founder, publisher, and editor-in-chief of Corporette. You can read more about her here.

Comments

  1. Babs

    I would love to hear some advice from those of you who have been working for a while. I recently graduated from law school and will be starting work at a large corporate law firm in the fall. I know from my (admittedly, very limited) experience that the learning curve is going to be very steep, not just in terms of the substantive work but also in terms of how to interact in a professional setting. Is there any advice anybody has that they wish they had been given when they started out? For a bit of context, the firm is very old with a large international practice. My particular office is business-formal, and the number of men is significantly greater than that of women. Thank you!!

    • millelilly

      That on most days at first, you will feel like you’ve been beaten up all day. There is a good reason they call it the practice of law– it takes practice. Set boundaries for yourself with how much work you will do, to how much sleep you will get.

      Keep your budget in check– try to keep your neccessary expenses (rent, food, electricity, etc.) to 50% of your salary. That way, you will not be so worried about potential layoffs, because even if you get a job that pays half as much, you will be fine. Don’t kill your self working just to spend all your money on vacations to recover from the work.

      And I agree with dcm58.

    • KH

      Clarification – the link from the word “this” in KLo’s original post is to an Amazon listing for a book titled: The Organized Lawyer.

  3. Kathryn

    Take care of yourself.
    This means 3 square meals, or whatever nutrition is optimal for you, exercise, proper sleep and other rest. Whatever rah rah BS they feed you otherwise, you cannot function on less than proper human inputs. It is not life-or-death. No one dies in a corporate law firm because you go home when you need to. No one.
    Have a decent life. It will serve you well when the inevitable ax falls.
    Take care of yourself. Women are loathe to take care of themselves in term of getting the best assignments, salaries, etc. Take care of yourself. No one else will.
    Take care of yourself. You need to preserve proper perspective on all this. As JK Rowling told the Harvard Class of 2008, your idea of failure is most people’s idea of success.
    Get a variety of skills if you can. You will be more marketable than if you can only do sewer bonds or commercial paper issues.
    Mostly, though, remember that you are a human being and entitled to respect and basic human needs.

  4. Marla

    Establish routines with friends/family, whether it’s a once/week date night with a significant other, one dinner a month with law school girlfriends, etc. That gives you something to look forward to, and it helps you keep your relationships strong.

    Build good relationships with support staff, but don’t mistake coworkers for friends, especially not too early. Remember that the mailroom guy (or other associate) who can fill you in on all the dirt is probably also collecting it on you. Every time you get an assignment, make sure you understand it, and say thank you.

    At least at first, avoid scheduling things for weeknights — it’s much easier to make it to theatre tickets on a Saturday night than a Wednesday night.

    Get organized before you start. Declutter your house, make your holiday card list, etc. Yes, you probably will have time to do those things after you start but it’ll be much better to not be scrambling to keep your life going and to use your free time to relax. My first year was very, very tough — primarily because I could not predict when things were coming out of nowhere and I had to work almost every holiday for the entire year. Believe me, it makes for a miserable Christmas when you can’t leave work until 5 on Christmas Eve and have to finish your shopping that night.

    Remember it gets much, much easier — you will learn to predict, you will have other people to delegate to, you will learn the cycles of your firm/practice (when everyone goes on vacation, what night of the week your partners are more likely to hand out “urgent” assignments), etc.

    Above all, hang on to your soul — do pro bono work, even if you can’t bill it. Go to church, synagogue, etc. Call your grandma. And hang on to your decency and kindness and use them to mentor and support other women.

  5. Cat

    Take care of yourself – but pay attention to when people will notice if you’re not there. Not being available when work is being distributed (if you’re not already busy and therefore in the office earlier/later, probably about 9 or 9:30-6:30 or 7, cut a little short on some Fridays, on the east coast) does not make a good impression.

    Before asking anyone senior a question, do a quick internal search (for a form, other similar agreements that partner has done before, etc) to help you with issue-spotting and to show you made some effort. But, to the extent that you can think of questions to ask on the spot while first learning about the assignment, ask them then – and refer things you think of later, often “I feel stupid for asking this” questions (or guidance as to relevant example documents) to other relatively junior associates that frequently work with the same partner – they’ll usually help you or tell you it’s an issue/question that needs to be escalated.

  6. Ruth

    Question about skirt length. My workplace is a government office of a foreign nation. It therefore straddles the line between corporate conservative and business casual creative. I am not of the ethnicity nor nationality of the majority of people with whom I work. The women I most admire and who I take as role models often dress in conservative but brightly colored and form fitting clothes (when not attending very serious official functions). They often complain that American business clothes are mournfully dreary and dark – lacking in life and self expression.
    To be safe, I have started my career there with conservative staples (though in gray and brown rather than black to accommodate the office pov). The culture with which I work is also not afraid to comment publicly on everyone in the office; I am used to this and ok with it. I am getting clear signals that I need to dress in a less conservative manner, like them. My body type is different from the women in my office (I am very tall and curvy) and fitting into the unofficial office dress code of short, tight skirt and bright blouse (which is just slightly sexy on others) may be way out there on me. So, how far above the knee can a professional American woman go with a skirt and still be taken seriously by other American professionals (especially in government and law) while trying to fit into the home culture of her office (that is a small country which most Americans won’t recognize as a culturally specific dress code)?

    • Mel

      To be honest, it sounds like part of the problem people are having is that your color palette is just too dreary. I’m from Florida and people definitely look at you funny if you try to bring in the northern wardrobe down here as well. I don’t think you need to rush into wearing shorter skirts right away. Instead you can add in some brighter shirts that are a little more figure flattering than what you have now and maybe some fun shoes.

    • divaliscious11

      Try to figure out the happy medium. What about dresses? Can you find dresses that are flattering but give you coverage? Can you add splashes of color with scarves or a bright cardigan (J Crew usually has nice brights in their cashmere line)? What about perhaps a textured hose? My current office is business casual, which permits a bit more fashion forward, but when I was in private practice, I used accessories to add some fab to my more conservative staples.

    • millelilly

      I agree with those who say that you need to be comfortable in your clothes. A good balance between American and Other Country would be either a suit in a more vibrant color than you usually wear, or your suits with brightly colored accessories and shoes. (I have always owned a red power-suit that I love, but haven’t had the guts to wear yet.) Don’t wear short skirts if you feel you won’t be taken seriously– you won’t be taken seriously. How do the men in the office react to what you wear? Do they even care? I do find it ironic that by dressing non-sexy, you are actually brining more attention to your body than if you dressed in the form-fitting clothes everyone else wears.

      My advice– keep the skirt length the same, just add a pretty blouse. Jones NY has some good ones.

      It sounds to me that maybe the women are thinking you don’t have much of a personality if you are not wearing bright, fun clothes. Think of ways to add brightness and personality to your outfit while still sticking with what you feel is right for you. I thought you might be working in that different country, but now that I think about it, it makes sense that you are in the US and working with people from the other country. You might be dealing with people having a bit of culture shock themselves, and are holding on to what they know from thier own country. Find a balance you can live with.

  7. divaliscious11

    Make sure the first new thing you do for any new partner or associate is excellent. Build your reputation as a solid performer so when you get something not quite right, it will be a fluke, not a pattern. Try to get a broad variety of work, even if it means getting work outside your practice area but also learn how to set boundaries. Know that you do not have to accept abusive behavior but understand the difference between it and constructive criticism. Finally, whatever you do to relieve stress, try to schedule it into your life, otherwise its too easy to not do it, but if its on your schedule, your more likely to do it….

  8. Cara

    Learn to take criticism well and this will distinguish you from your peers. Partners are critical of EVERYONE, but they love it when you thank them for their criticism, and tell them what you have learned from them. It’s the best kind of ego-stroking.

  10. RZS

    I was wondering if you all might be able to help me locate something. My mom has a special loop that serves as a clasp to double long necklaces (like long pearl necklaces). It’s basically just a gold loop with a fastener on one side. She got it through the Winterthur catalog about 20 years ago. It’s great for playing around with necklaces — wearing them as chokers vs. long strands. I’d love to get one for myself, but I have no idea what it might be called, or where to look for one. I’ve tried searching on things like “neckalce doubler” etc., but have come up dry. Is there any chance you have come across something like this?

    • KH

      If there is a good bead store (a crafting activity if anyone has time for such a thing), you might ask the staff there. I know what you are talking about – I got mine during the 80s when there was a fad for long strings of beads you could either wear the traditional way or loop both ends around the thing you are looking for for a shorter, double stranded look.

      Other hint I got from the bead store. Buy two or three lobster clasps (they’ll know what this is, but it’s simply one end of a necklace clasp.) I then used heavy elastic cording and made three loops with a lobster clasp on it – 1 inch, two inch and 3 inches. I use these to extend the length of any necklace I might wear either under a collor or jacket (so it doesn’t show). Hook the clasp of the necklace onto the elastic loop and hook the lobster clasp to the ring at the other end of the necklace. Dang, wish I could draw this… But it greatly increases the versatility of my necklaces to be able to make them longer.

    • ClerkChic

      I think what you’re after is what’s typically called a “pearl shortener.” My gradmother has a few, some very expensive with diamonds, some simpler and more affordable. Lots of jewelery stores sell them, and a quick e-bay search (“peral shortener”) just turned up several.

      I have also seen them called “bead shorteners.” They work great and make long strands of beads more versatile!

  11. Liz

    Any suggestions for non-silk shells/T-shirts than can be worn under a suit jacket? Preferably ones that do not have to be tucked in? Short or long-sleeved is fine.

  12. e

    This is totally random, but I just wanted to point out something interesting. Last week I exchanged a suiting skirt at Banana Republic. I had hideous customer service, and I just noticed that they happened to give me a survey. I get a 20% discount just for filling out their survey (and being able unleash on that rude, rude man). Now I can get that dress I was eyeing. Anyway, this is the best “please do our survey” deal I’ve seen so check those receipts ladies.

    Babs, I graduate next year so I don’t have a lot of advice. However, law is my second career, and I would say some parts of my job were soul-sucking, and I absolutely agree with Kathryn on taking care of yourself. Also, it’s always helped me to keep a brag sheet – a Word or Google doc where you keep track of accomplishments and projects. They are very handy when you’re writing a performance review for a 1-year period and you’re having trouble remembering exactly why your cat thinks you’re an intruder and why the man at the dry-cleaner’s is your BFF. :) Go and get ’em girl, before they get you!

    • H

      I get those surveys all the time too. Just bear in mind that they are for regular-priced items only, not sale or clearance stuff.

  13. KD

    Liz, I have bought a variety of sleeveless shells at Target. My favorite one is high necked w/ a double layer over the boob area so you never have to worry about your bra showing. I recently bought the “Merona double layer shirred tank.” I can’t find it on the website to give you a link. It works great for transitioning into night wear. It also has a little bunching in the chest so it is very flattering even though no cleavage shows.

    Babs, great question. I am also starting as a new associate soon.

  14. dcm58

    Babs,

    I also work in a formal, international law firm that is about 85% male. My advice may seem controversial, but it is working well for me. I am a fifth year lawyer and will probably make partner while two other females at my level probably will not.
    My advice is this: Don’t try to outwardly align yourself with the women. It is great to attend women networking events, etc., but don’t just stick to your own kind. I made a point to establish a mentor like relationship with male partners. I also make a point to talk sports with men groups and become friends with male associates. I rarely go to “girl lunches” with the other female associates. Don’t get me wrong – I am friends with the women associates and there is one particular woman partner that I have asked advice from a few times in the past year, but my first two years at this firm I worked very hard to establish my self as a person – not one of the women associates. I don’t chit-chat about children with all the secretaries like some of my female counterparts do, nor do I whip out pictures when others do (although i don’t have children, but i have cute neices and nephews!).
    I know it is important to work hard and put in the hours and try to work with as many partners as possible, but I find that partners think of you more if you establish some sort of friendly relationship with them – if you have something in common. Since most of the men in my firm are very interested in sports, I make sure I keep up on sports, too (which is easy for me because I like sports). It goes a long way.

    • divaliscious11

      I agree, although don’t disassociate too much from the administrative staff that they think you think they are beneath you. Be sure to treat them well, they will save your bottom time and again. But I agree on building relationships across gender/racial lines, but don’t neglect those other alliances as well….

  15. newassociate

    nearing my first year of practice, i would say my best tip is listen to your gut. stop. think. there is a tiny voice in your head that will sometimes softly whisper to you “i’m not sure this is a good idea.” in the times that i have blazed ahead and ignored the voice, it wasn’t the ideal outcome.

    if in doubt, take a five minute break. get up from your desk, get a glass of water, and think for minute. your smarts got you this far, don’t forget them now.

    another way to think of this, as you may be fresh off barbri: gooooooooooooood idea?

    • newassociate

      also, get a copy of “nice girls don’t get the corner office.” re-read a random chapter regularly to remind yourself to avoid some unconscious bad habits. while the book isn’t the be all and end all of how to be successful in a corporate environment, i have found it incredibly helpful.

  18. nyc-anon-associate

    Babs — some advice that I wish I’d taken more to heart when I started as an associate at a large law firm last fall:
    1. If you have debt, live frugally and pay it down quickly. It’s too easy to spend everything you make, esp when you’re stressed and working a lot and feeling like you deserve to spend it.
    2. Especially since you say your office has more men — be extra assertive! This kind of goes along with dcm58’s advice. Since the majority of your superiors will be men, and likely even more so at the partner level, try to emulate them if you want to succeed. If you act too much like a secretary, or are too typically-female (e.g. humble/not taking credit for good work; not being assertive with your opinion; not speaking up in mostly-male meetings), you will be treated accordingly. Sad, but true.
    3. It’s a really tough world right now in the legal market, with lots of layoffs, so you need to try extra hard just to hang on to your job. Stay late, come in early, always volunteer for additional work, act grateful that you have the job that you do.

    Hope this helps! Best of luck to you.

  19. lulu

    Ruth,

    I think that no matter what, you need to be comfortable so I wouldn’t dress too sexy just so you fit in. Perhaps you should have all your skirts taken up to one or two inches above your knees. You can also get them tapered so that they curve in a little at the bottom rather than falling straight down–that look is more feminine/sexy without being over the top.

    Not sure what to say about blouses because it sounds like you would be uncomfortable wearing the same kind of tops as everyone else. Perhaps the solution might be to wear colored jackets when you don’t have to be wearing a matching suit? The colors would help you fit in and I have been able to find some cropped jackets that skim my body but still provide full coverage.

    • Sarah

      Ruth,
      I agree with Lulu. You won’t be comfortable wearing what the others wear. You need to find your own path. Personally, I don’t wear short skirts. I love the pencil skirt. It is sexy because of the cut not the length. It is also classic but can be jazzed up with a silk shirt and accessories. Try having some fun with accessories–lots of pearls or a brooch, maybe several bracelets? Would that be appropriate to your work atmosphere? Since you said most of your wardrobe is brown and gray, have you tried camel colored skirts or tops? Its conservative shade that might lighten up your color scheme. Lastly, I would say if you want color, go for solids instead of prints. Do you like deep reds? They are versatile with camel, grays and browns depending on the shade. It sounds like a bright print might make you uncomfortable and that’s the worst thing to do to yourself (feel awkward in your own clothes). Look at the September issues of some fashion magazines. Not to buy items but to get inspiration of color combinations that you’d enjoy wearing. Sounds like you have a very interesting work environment. Good luck & have fun.

  20. Anonymous

    I just thought I would check back and see what other comments people had made that I could use in my firmlife, and I have to say – nyc-anon-associate’s advice – especially number two – is spot on!
    Too many women associates are relegated to paralegal/assistant type work because they aren’t assertive enough and are too demure (for lack of a better word). I like being feminine and all, but you have to speak up and show your intelligence and ability to lead a project! Also, if you have experience in an area or have read something, etc. say it! men have no problem singing their own praises, we have to do it too! if you wait for someone else to brag on you, you will never get the recognition. you just have to learn to brag on yourself in the right way.

  21. Ruth

    Dear All, thank you for the adv ice and good ideas! To clarify some of the questions: I am not uncomfortable with short skirts or bright colors, and I am happy to fit into the Office Culture, but when I go out for meetings at American government offices, law firms, etc. – well, I need to be taken seriously. Not being a foreigner myself means I am held to a different set of expectations by my fellow Americans. Having lived abroad most of my life (EU, Asia, etc.), I’m really not sure what the limits are in American business culture. I think I will have to push up against those limits, but I don’t want to cross them.

    I am thinking, after hearing your great advice: form-fitting skirts, 2 inches above the knee + bolder colored suits (but I will stay in blue, brown, and gray family) which I can wear sans jacket in the Office, with jacket Out + bright tops in interesting fabrics (but bright for me, not neon) + less conservative shoes + really out there scarves that I can take off when leaving the Office.

    I know that it is in the best interest of my office to be taken seriously when I am out, yet I have a duty to represent their country on their terms. It’s a bit of a pickle. Also, I would love to share the details of my workplace, but would hate for anyone to be inadvertently offended by my discussion of issues such as culture, body type, etc.

    • Ruth

      one more thing – the men in the office could care less what the women wear (or at least voice no public opinion about it). The female attire IS really conservative for their home country (which has hot weather most of the year). With 2 exceptions, the men are NOT in positions of authority in our office, women have seniority. The men, then, pay a lot of attention to their appearance and dress in perfectly tailored (and very form fitting) Armani suits.

  22. housecounsel

    My favorite piece of advice above is Cat’s, about doing an internal search for documents. I think this is one way to show you’re a self-starter as opposed to a potted plant, waiting to be spoon-fed information. When I was a partner, I never minded good questions. I minded (and made mental notes of) lazy ones.

    Never ask “What should I do?” Instead, say, “I have researched X and Y and Z options, and I think Z is the best course of action, and here is why.” Even if the boss disagrees, he or she will appreciate the effort.

    I am having a hard time with dcm58’s advice. I’m not saying that it is bad or wrong. I just think it is sad that there are work environments where it is necessary. I made partner while bonding tightly with other female associates (although my mentor at the firm was a man), and my longtime secretary is still a friend even though I left to take a GC job with a client. Even if you’re not social friends with the staff, I think it’s just common courtesy to ask about the cute kids in the pictures on the desk. If we’re going to get calculating about it, an overworked secretary might remember who asked about her little guy’s baseball game next time you and another, less-friendly associate have rushes.

  23. Ariella

    I know I am a little late on the “open thread” thing, but does anyone have any good recommendations on books regarding deposition-taking-technique? I always feel like I am missing something, and want to become more polished.

    • Ashley

      Try the NITA book “The Effective Deposition”. I think it is pretty good. Mauet’s “Pretrial” book has some information about depos as well. I actually took the NITA Deposition Training and got so much out of it. Hope this helps!

    • ChickintheStix

      Ariella,
      Dittoing the NITA recommendation, but frankly, nothing beats the NITA depo class! Even if you’re an experienced deposition taker, it’s a great skills-building or polishing course.
      Chick

  24. Karen

    Babs,

    Cara and housecounsel are spot on – the other advice is very good too, but their tips are what I have seen set me apart from the other associates and lead to positive relationships with the partners I worked for. Try to find the answer or several options before coming to the partner with a question, but don’t put hours and hours of effort in until you’re sure you know what is wanted – coming to the partner and saying “I just spent thirty hours doing blah blah blah, isn’t that great?” will not get you credit if you were on the wrong track. Especially in this economy, partners do not want you spending time on the wrong thing (but if you know you are doing the right thing, don’t worry about how much time you spend in the early stages of your career).

    When you get feedback, no matter how unjustified you feel it is, do not act defensive. I hate it when I say to a junior person, “this is not in your memo and it should be” and they start explaining that it’s a marginal issue, they didn’t have the information needed to put it in, etc. That may all be true, but spot feedback is not an exercise in judgment or blame; it’s working together to make the work product what it needs to be. Junior associates typically can’t produce the perfect work product the first time around because factors such as lack of experience and/or information about the case that seniors know are not their “fault.” (If you don’t get any suggestions for improvement or revisions, it’s probably not that the work was perfect, but that the issue was marginal enough that the senior doesn’t feel it needs to be.) If an associate insists on pinpointing why the first draft wasn’t perfect, the best case scenario is that the associate is right and reminds me that I made a mistake; the worst case scenario is that she brings attention to what really was a big oversight in the first draft that I might not have focused on otherwise. Either way, it’s a distraction and will cause me to have less positive feelings about working with that person.

    So if the feedback you get is “here’s what this should look like, go do it,” you should accept that as part of the process of training and teamwork, and not make more of it than it needs to be. (Now if someone is screaming at you, or behaving really inappropriately, that’s different – then you should feel free to say something like ” I’m sorry if I misunderstood your instructions or didn’t get you what you needed, and I’d like to find a way to fix the problem, but I think we should take a break and discuss this again when you’re calmer.” But still be prepared to accept responsibility once they calm down, even if you don’t think the problem is your fault – I have said “I’m sorry I let you down” when partners unfairly criticized me, and in exchange for eating crow I got some great mentors.)

    Also, mentors (of the kind you work with) are critical to your success. Do what you can to connect with people who are senior to you on a human level, and let them get to know you so that they start to feel invested in you. This will help you get better work over the course of your career. If you’re not getting good work, you’ll never be able to show what you can do.

    Good luck!

    Karen

  26. MariannaLeBourge

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    J’ai une question a vous demander.
    Qu’est-ce que le mieux
    viagra,cialis,kamagra,levitra,propecia???
    Car je voudrais acheter pour mon cheri,mais je sais pas quoi choisir…
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    Merci a tous pour vos reponse, et
    a + ! ! !
    P.S.
    Desole si je poste sur les mauvaise forum (topic) !

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