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– WSJ interviews a woman who left her corporate gig and is now getting rid of her corporate clothes, as well — on eBay. (Pictured: one of her items for sale.)
– MSNBC has an interesting article on how men perceive women's work behavior.
– The Harvard Business Review has suggestions on how to manage your inner critic.
– Be warned: that AOL or hotmail e-mail address apparently is a resume risk. Lifehacker asked its readers what their prejudices were, and then analyzed the answers.
– Finally: Jezebel has some choice words for Alex Benzer's suggestion that the smartest women have the toughest time dating because they are the problem.
A
That MSNBC article is really lame. I understand the need to dress professionally, but the (male) writer puts the entire onus of creating a professional work place on women. The assumption underlying his argument is that men are and forever will be cavemen who love boobs, and rather than expecting them to change even a little bit, women should basically dress up in paper bags. Women need to dress professionally (and some women do push things over the line). Men need to treat women equally. I shouldn’t have to totally squelch my personality and dress like Margaret Thatcher to be taken seriously. Also, norms change over time. Let’s remember that once upon a time, the sight of a woman’s ankles was considered scandalous.
Corporate Tool
Agreed. I understand that showing cleavage is problematic, but women shouldn’t have to “dress down” in such a way that they don’t present a temptation to their male colleagues.
Liz (Europe)
I disagree. I’m one of the 25% that instinctively understands men’s reactions (and I have some bisexual inclinations, too) and I’ve known that looking feminine creates a distraction since I was 11 – I was actually reprimanded in school once for being a distraction when I didn’t even mean it! As for other women – trust me, the distraction is very very real… If *I* have trouble focusing on what other women say when their pretty-cut hair is loose and stroking their neck, or their heels go click-click-click, what must the poor guys go through?! The dude who coached my croup through moot court was actually very insistant we minimize feminine distractions along with all other distractions (and I’m in a country where lawyers have to wear robes, too).
Liz (Europe)
Oops, that didn’t quite come out the way I meant. I mean I’ve known it can be distracting since I was 11 or so, the school reprimand was when I was 15 or so and a teacher thought I was coming onto him… O_o dude was old and ugly.
J
Agree! I dress pretty conservatively, and I find the idea that if I show my figure at all it’s “distracting” pretty offensive.
Erin M.
I loved the ad with Hugh Hefner’s face halfway through the paragraph on how “men are visual.”
ARinFL
LMAO
Lawgirl
I agree, hated the article. I know the intent was well-meaning, but I got the feeling that some men might prefer that we stay barefoot and pregnant at home, so they have even less to worry about while they’re in the boardroom :(
Liz (Europe)
Oh, some do… All you have to do is browse 4chan.org to get a feel of what really goes through the minds of guys on the lowest of the lowest levels. (They call us “cumdumpsters” there, FYI…)
One of the things that greatly helps is to figure out early on when you have a guy on your hands that subscribes to the bitches-are-for-cooking ideals. The teacher who advised me on my choice of education was one of them. I have an IQ far into the genius range, but he wasn’t even putting university on the table as one of my options until pressed for it. Luckily, I was smart enough not to listen to that talking bag of misogyny and to figure him out for what I was, but I imagine over the course of his life he probably hurt the life and career paths or more than just a few girls… I’ve never encountered any such blatant women-hating sentiments in the academic world, though I guess it’s possible the guys there are just better at hiding it, but nonetheless I think it serves us women well to be at least aware that such men are certainly out there, and can sabotage things for you.
Claire
It’s incredibly disturbing to me that my future career could be hindered because a male colleague might find me attractive. Yes, I have breasts. If I wear clothing that fits–not too tight, not revealing , but simply in the correct size–the fact that I have breasts will be apparent. Am I supposed to wear a cardboard box? Perhaps someone should write an article for men explaining to them how inappropriate their assumptions are!
Claire
Even more curious is that this article makes it seem like men believe that we get dressed in the morning just for them
AN
Claire – you’re spot on. A colleague is very very curvy BUT never in tight clothes/ no gaping buttons etc but her clothes fit well (no sacks, thank you) and she’s very confident. Yet a female colleague told me she found her “distracting” and speculated what the guys might think. What’s the poor girl to do? Yes, she’s got boobs. No, she’s not flaunting them. Carry on, and let the rest be damned, I say!
Nevadamtnbear
I understand the resentment against the article – however, I think it is very on point.
Often, I’ve changed because I felt as though a sweater was too revealing, etc. Many times my husband says “you look really good” before my change. But, I’m not taking my husband’s “viewpoint.” After I read this article, I asked him some very direct questions, and he responded very similarly to the men in the article. It doesn’t matter whether we want to scream from the rooftops that men need to give it up – they are wired differently, and there is nothing that is going to change that. For the record, my husband is very what I consider very a-typical – he’s a stay at home dad now, he’s very domestic, and has an amazing respect for women.
But, it doesn’t matter, Men will inevitably have a spiders web of sexual triggers, and as a woman, I have to be considerate of that. Just as the men have to make their own intentional considerations with respect to how they behave around women.
Is the article advocating that we all dress in burkas and hid ourselves under a potato sack – not at all. But, what it’s advising is looking at how we dress ourselves and keep in mind that when we’re in certain forums we have to keep in mind how things we may not perceive as being a distraction or detractor could disadvantage us.
If you want to be taken seriously for the CONTENT of your presentation – whether it be to a judge, jury, board of directors, potential client, etc., we have to be a little more *aware*. Maybe we decide to keep the second button from the top buttoned, or decide to wear a more muted color pallet, or decide to wear basic black pumps rather than the bronze stacked platform peep toes.
Sure, it sucks that we have to put more effort and though into these things. But, it is what it is right now. I don’t expect the human psyche to change, and I certainly don’t think the way men (and some women) are hard wired is going to change. Yes, often times as professional women, we’re playing against a stacked deck. But, at the same time, understanding the venue helps us out.
Purpleviolet
I really do not like women who dress sexy and then deny it. The one issue that the article did not address was sandals in the workplace. Ladies, the men do notice our feet!
AMEN!
AMEN To the MSNBC Article!!!!!!!!!! I can’t tell you how many times the men at my place of employment have asked me to talk to women about this very issue. I have had open honest conversation with professional men and they have told me hands down they agreed with the comments .. women in low cut tops are distracting.. and it’s hard to concentrate. Men are just wired that way…. I don’t think it can be changed. I do think women can dress like women.. without over emphasizing the “goods.”
I was shocked when the student teacher at my daughter’s school showed up in tight fitting clothes and five inch heels every day.. I watched her walk in building as I dropped her off. I asked my daughter about her… she said oh, the kids all call her “the porn star.” Yep, that’s a reputation that a young teacher needs. I was shocked to see it every day all semester…. apparently the faculty didn’t know about the nickname.
ARinFL
The book was written by a woman, I believe.
Nonetheless, I found the article fascinating.
v
Ah yes, the old “women are responsible for men’s behavior” trope. Always delightful. Also, I like how, for instance, gay men never exist in these articles’ worlds. Why are men never cautioned to avoid wearing tight pants to avoid distracting their (male, and so presumably also visually oriented in the view of this author) gay co-workers?
Oh, that’s right. We only want to give people who are already in a traditionally powerful demographic a get-out-of-free card for their actions. Silly me; how could I forget.
On the e-mail, back when I used to have a job where I reviewed a lot of resumes, e-mails like biggerbadderstud@hotmail.com and sexyunicorn73@aol.com were enough to put a resume into the instant rejects pile. Though I doubt anyone here needs to be told that, I was disturbed by how many people seemed to think it was acceptable.
JP
That’s really silly. Men — unless they are gay — generally don’t wear pants that are too tight ;)
v
One of the examples of “too provocative” in that article was a wrap blouse under a jacket. I definitely see men wearing pants as, uh, asset showing as that combo every day.
But, of course, we don’t consider them to be “too tight” because we don’t think men need to structure their lives around other people’s sexual attraction to them or lack thereof.
AN
Well, last week, I (unfortunately) saw what I’d have preferred not to, when a young, male colleague wore super low rise jeans and bent over. I am planning to request his (male) boss to caution him on this. One for the ladies!!
Lola
We have a legal assistant in my (admittedly casual) law office who wore corset-style tops for the first month or so. Like, with lace-up backs and ribbons. It was intense.
I think sometimes I want to get attention, and maybe think men will like me better if I wear the clothes and heels that flatter my body. I’m glad you linked to this article – sometimes it probably doesn’t hurt to sell things with curves, but most of the time, I probably don’t want to.
s-k-s
Caught the related interview on the today show this morning, actually. I found it both fascinating and frustrating.
When I was first starting my career, someone once told me to “play the game you’re in, not the game you want to be in.” In a perfect world I think many of these things are unfair, wrong, antiquated, chauvinistic, etc., but it doesn’t mean they aren’t also true. Yes, I should be able to show a little cleavage and still be taken seriously as a professional woman and evaluated on my mind, but unfortunately I can’t force other people to adopt that point of view. Kicking and screaming about it doesn’t change reality.
It sucks, but I guess that’s life! For what it’s worth, a lot of my male friends have expressed jealousy at the overall freedom women at my firm have compared to men about their dress code, etc., so I think it also does go both ways.
v
Kicking and screaming about it doesn’t change reality.
Mmm, if women were still unable to vote or, for that matter, have professional careers I might agree with you. Since progress has been made, I have to conclude it can continue to be made.
Liz (Europe)
There’s a difference between fighting social inequality and biological instincts, neurological predispositions, etc. The thing about drawing the attention of the men’s wandering eye is, they really don’t mean to see you as a sex object. They might be perfectly gentlemen and completely endorse the idea of gender equality, women with careers etc. When their biological instincts get the better of them, they’re distracted by thoughts that might not even be welcome to them in their heads. So they suppress them, but to do that, they’re focused on their internal world for a few seconds that they could been listening to you… If he does that a few times over the course of a presentation, he likely missed a core point (or two.)
Nevadamtnbear
BINGO! You hit the nail on the head in my viewpoint.
v
Okay, but the thing is, straight men are not the only people who are distracted, nor is sex the only distraction. Have I missed points in male colleagues’ presentations because I spent a few seconds mulling over how hot they were? Dear God yes. I’ve also missed points in people’s presentations because I was looking at a butterfly outside the window or thinking about how I was ready for lunch (another biological imperative!).
But society (quite reasonably) sees all those things as my issue and urges me to shelve the sexual attraction, keep my eyes off the window, and eat before the big meeting or else suck it up and ignore it. Yet somehow when we talk about the issue of straight men’s sexual attraction (and only straight men’s sexual attraction), it because entirely the responsibility of women to deflect.
nyc-anon
totally agree w/ this.
ARinFL
Wow. Really great point. I hadn’t previously looked at it that way. Thanks.
MelD
What is interesting is that appearance does matter when actually landing a job. A woman who wears a suit that fits well and is figure flattering is going to have a better chance of landing a job than a woman who wears a baggy suit and looks sloppy.
Then when we get into the workplace we can no longer wear that suit because it’s too tempting for men to look at women who wear something that actually fits. The reality is also that styles change. Now the pencil skirt is the norm, and that’s naturally going to be a little more sexy than an a-line or less fitted style.
Nevadamtnbear
I don’t think it has to do with looking professional. A nice fitting suit that flatters a woman’s figure isn’t necessarily the subject of the discussion/article. It’s how it’s worn – is it worn without a shirt underneath? Is a button-up shirt unbuttoned one or two buttons too low? Is the shirt fitting appropriately given the woman’s chest size – i.e. if she turns, does the shirt gape between buttons exposing her undergarments? Is she wearing flashy jewelry that is distracting?
I very much understand the message the author is trying to convey and I agree with it. An important presentation; closing arguments in a high stakes case; oral arguments before the Court of Appeals; etc. are circumstances where a second thought regarding what you’re wearing and how it MAY be perceived is prudent. Maybe a pants suit with a lightweight silk turtleneck sweater or a blouse that is none too or potentially revealing.
I look at it like writing a brief/letter/opinion letter – be aware of your audience – you craft your writing to be attentive to the reader. What’s wrong with determining the appropriateness of an outfit based upon the audience you’re presenting yourself too?
MelD
I’ve worked in plenty of male-dominated workplaces that were more or less a replica of Mad Men when a new young woman started. The fact that you were young and female in a place where almost everyone was young and male was enough to get the men’s minds going in the wrong direction. For that audience, I think anything short of a full veil was too provocative.
Erin M.
Does it bother anyone else that if we look pretty and feminine we’re being too sexy and unprofessional, but if we look dowdy we’re being too masculine and we’re perceived as bitches who just need to get laid? See, e.g. (for extreme examples), Sarah Palin, Janet Reno. Ugh.
Claire
Yes, it does!
KLo
For somebody who doesn’t really love button downs, I have to celebrate that men get distracted by them. One more reason to not feel compelled to buy them! But I do agree that they need to get over their caveman ways and deal.
AIMS
I think that the problem is that what is considered too sexy or too tight is inherently subjective. We are all talking about inherently different things, but referring to them as if they are interchangeable.
There are heels that are work appropriate and heels that aren’t. Same with sweaters, suits, button downs, etc. Sizing matters — some things fit but shouldn’t be worn because they are too tight. The next size would probably be much better, but some women like to get the smallest one possible. I see women in court all the time who just look unprofessional — and it’s sad that they would get judged because their skirt is too short or heels are too high, but it’s a professional world you work in — in a way, they are being judged on their judgment!!
To sum up, yes we all have boobs, and no one is saying you should hide them, but if you make it a point to look professional, no one will take issue with it.
AIMS
Interesting article in NY Times about the devaluation of the law degree in recent years —
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/17/fashion/17lawyer.html?ref=fashion
Liz
I know women are touchy about how to dress in the workplace and how it influences male coworkers, but I have to agree. Not that we should all be wearing robes to hide our figures, but a few tiny changes here and there really could go a long way towards helping male coworkers stay focused on the work we do. There are plenty of outfits that look neat, feminine and professional without being too sexy.
MelD
As others have pointed out, I think part of the issue is that what is sexy is entirely subjective. Unfortunately some women have figures that are going to draw attention. I had one young coworker in Japan who had a large chest and was nicknamed “FF” because of it. She always dressed in a professional, conservative manner that was neither too tight or revealing. The reality is that a chest that size on a pretty, petite young woman is going to draw a lot of attention no matter what she wears. I’ve seen other young woman with nice figures have the same problem, despite dressing appropriately.
nval
As an older law student, I was surprised when the prime piece of advice from a judge (female, btw) speaking to a women’s group was not to dress inappropriately, by which she meant too revealingly. I have to admit that I’m equally surprised at how some of my younger female classmates dress. But honestly, don’t you think the dress problem for women in general is that we are supposed to be just sexy enough, but not too sexy: that is a line that is so subjective, so ill-defined, and above all so NARROW, that it is almost impossible to walk it well. And men rarely have to walk that line at all, as their ideal image is one of power, not desirability. It’s quite a handicap for us, isn’t it?
North Shore
The guys who think this way are going to think this way regardless of what you wear. Thank goodness I’m getting too old for this type of attention.
And love the comment about men thinking we dress for them. Ha. I’ve heard of some surveys in this area, and women generally dress up to please themselves or to look nice for other women.
MJ
I think the author of that MSNBC article is actually female – take a look at this:
http://www.amazon.com/Male-Factor-Unwritten-Misperceptions-Workplace/dp/0385528116/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263772070&sr=8-4
MJ
Oops, I meant the author of the book that’s featured in the MSNBC article – not the article itself.
ChickintheStix
Why is the MSNBC article titled “Behavior” but it’s actually all about clothes? Lame.
C
nval- I agree. Women are supposed to be pretty and sexy and feminine and attractive, but not too much and they are supposed to be modest and unassuming, but cannot succeed unless they are strong and powerful, which they cannot display (would be ugly) but also cannot hide (would be deceitful and/or manipulative). It is a difficult role to play. Good that we are all up to the challenge. :(
Purpleviolet
This is a riot. All these women offended by the article about revealing clothes and how we don’t want to be judged. Yet, all these women are on a site dedicated to our appearance.
Niki
Hmm, someone posted something along the lines of “why shouldn’t I be able to show a little cleavage in the workplace” a little bit ago — because it’s the workplace. You should not be showing cleavage in the workplace, period. For what it’s worth, I am a 30 year old attractive female and have to deal with all the BS of not getting taken seriously in the workplace because of how I look and/or how young I look. It is ridiculous, but it is how it is. So, I take care to make sure that my work speaks for me as a person and not my clothes. It’s about balance. Do I wear 3.5″ high heels? Yes, but with pants or with longer skirts and hose. Do I wear button downs? Yes, but I make sure that they do not gape and they are buttoned up appropriately (a little double sided tape goes a long way). Do I wear my long hair down? Not often because I find myself touching it to move it out of my face and touching your hair is one sure fire way to distract people, men AND women.
I don’t feel that my femininity is being stifled because I still wear what I want, but I also realize that this is a social get together on the weekends and business casual does not mean business revealing. I feel more confident when I am wearing something that fits properly and looks nice, but fits properly does not mean fits tightly or, on the other hand, fits loosely. I doubt that men always wear what they want to on a daily basis (who likes wearing a suit every day?), but they do it because it is a workplace, not a free for all!!