Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Button Up Blouse

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Our daily TPS reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices. whowhatwear target blouseI haven't placed my order yet, but there are a bunch of promising pieces in the Who What Wear collaboration with Target — and I love that they come in regular sizes and plus sizes. This 100% polyester, machine washable blouse is very reminiscent of Equipment blouses, but at a fraction of the cost. And say what you will about polyester versus silk, but they can be great for layering, and they're certainly better from the perspective of less wrinkles. This blouse is $24.99, available in sizes XS-XXL; the plus size version is available in $28 and comes in sizes X-4X. Ladies, what are your favorite pieces in general to get at Target?   Women's Button Up Blouse – Who What Wear ™ Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com. (L-all)

Sales of note for 2/14/25 (Happy Valentine's Day!):

  • Nordstrom – Winter Sale, up to 60% off! 7850 new markdowns for women
  • Ann Taylor – Up to 40% off your full-price purchase — and extra 60% off sale
  • Banana Republic Factory – 50% off everything + 15% off (readers love their suiting as well as their silky shirts like this one)
  • Boden – 15% off new season styles
  • Eloquii – 300+ styles $25 and up
  • J.Crew – 40% of your purchase – prices as marked
  • J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site and storewide + extra 50% off clearance
  • Rothy's – Final Few: Up to 40% off last-chance styles
  • Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
  • Talbots – Flash sale ending soon – markdowns starting from $15, extra 70% off all other markdowns (final sale)

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

227 Comments

  1. Ugh, I hate that I have to ask this, but I’ve been noticing a very fine, darker down on my upper lip that was never there before. I don’t wear make-up and don’t want to start, so what are your best tips for removing it? Also, should I consider seeing a doctor about any potential hormone issues or just accept that this is the price to pay for aging?

    If there are any low-maintenance methods for dealing with this, that would be great – I don’t want to have to get my lip waxed every two weeks or anything!

    1. It is aging.

      I have gone the laser route (made the hair finer, incredible painful) and am having electolysis touchups in the mouth corners.

      Is unfair. And then the nose hairs start getting longer. UNFAIR UNFAIR UNFAIR.

      My only comfort is that 100s of years ago I’d either have been in a sideshow or would have died in childbirth / from cholera / from some other epidemic. But I’m alive now and want to look decent (like should I ever slip into a coma or be in jail, I would probably be horrified of the me that would emerge from either (solely from a vanity perspective)).

      1. You can have your nose hairs waxed. I know, it sounds horrible. but it’s completely painless. My esthetician gave me a freebie trial and I fell in love.

    2. Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Friday’s and this Blouse! But Kat, can you find one in 100% cotton for us? I sweat alot in Polyester and it make’s me sweat. FOOEY!

      As for the OP, you can go to an electrologist to get your mustache removed, or you can wax or bleech it away, tho I do NOT recomend that you do that by yourself. It is worse if you have dark hair. Fortunately, Rosa and I blonde’s, but even I am noticeing a littel to much fuzzies on my OWN lip. FOOEY! I do NOT think I can ever get a guy to marry me with a mustach. If you want to get married, I recomend you loose the mustach IMMEDIATELEY. In my case, I first need to find a boyfreind.

      The manageing partner prefers that I not dress like a tomboy, even on snow day’s like today. So he did NOT like it when I came in with a denim shirt. I think the manageing partner sometimes just think’s of me as a pretty face and person that can make money for him, not as a freind that he can confide in. Frank came in today to tell me I look good today. I do NOT need reinforcement from him, tho it is nice that SOMEONE think’s so. I have NOT been abel to secure a date with the doctor, and now Grandma Trudy is jelous that we are coddeling Grandma Leyeh with her bunions. Grandma Trudy said that she endured bunion’s for year’s and NOT ONE person sympeathized with her. DOUBEL FOOEY! I hate these internecine scuffels!

      Does anyone in the HIVE know how to deal with this kind of family probelem?

    3. I used to bleach the hair on my upper lip when I was in high school. No removal needed, just gotta mix the solution and leave it on for 20 minutes or so. I forget exactly how often I needed to do it, but I don’t think it needed to be done all that often.

    4. I use Sally Hansen wax strips. They are plastic and already coated w wax. You are supposed to warm them by rubbing between your hands and peeling apart to expose the wax but I like them warmer so I hold then up to the lightbulb. 1 box is 8 or 10 dollars and will last me about a year. But I’m stingy and I cut the strips into smaller pieces than provided to get maximum use. I use them about once a month and over time hair grows much more slowly. Also uck when stray hairs appear instead of down. Good luck !

    5. I get my upper lip threaded. The first time I got it done, it hurt so much that tears were streaming down my face, but it gets better over time. Now the pain is manageable and the hair has grown in finer, so I only get it done once a month.

      1. There are some good YouTube videos for threading. Not hard to do at home once you get the hang of it. I’m not coordinated enough to do my own eyebrows but with practice, and getting used to the pain, I can do my own upper lip.

    6. Nair, or whatever chemical equivalent for the face. Only leave on for a minute or so, and patch-test on an inconspicuous area of your neck the day before. Some people are very sensitive, but I’ve had good luck with this – no irritation at all. I do it once a week but it literally takes 2 minutes total from application to removal, and is painless.

      1. I used to do this, but developed a huge sensitivity. Which, of course, I did not learn with a patch test…

    7. I seriously just cut them short with the scissors of a swiss army knife. painless, quick. Doesn’t last as long but very easy.

    8. I am blessed with very fair and sensitive skin, and dark, thick hair. This means DARK hairs that grow on my chin, mustache as well as the “down” like hairs all over my cheeks etc..

      Over the years I have done waxing, plucking, Nair, bleaching… everything. I have damaged my skins at sloppy waxing salons, burned my skin with home products. Just… bad.

      I finally decided… no more chemicals, no more expense. I heard about the “spring” on this website, actually. Cheap, one time expense, works well once you get used to it. BUT…. it is a little painful.

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001FXUTUM?keywords=rem%20hair%20remover&qid=1457105427&ref_=sr_1_1_s_it&s=beauty&sr=1-1

      But finally – I found the most amazing solution – SHAVE. Cheap, painless, easy. I use these:

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SU4AAMG?refRID=F0D8YJD4S8ZXFPXTRH6M&ref_=pd_ys_c_rfy_rp_0

      It is becoming more and more popular, and works better than anything else I have tried so far. You actually shave on DRY SKIN. Watch one of the youtube videos about the stroke and angle. It works so well for me, takes so little time.

      And you know what? My Mom used to dry shave. I can’t believe I never even tried this. I remembered the rumors that “if you shave it will grow back thicker and darker… blah blah blah”. NOT TRUE!

      Dry shave.

      1. And I dry shave all over my face. Upper lip, chin, neck, cheeks, by ears etc… My skin feels great.

        So to the OP… don’t feel embarrassed. Many of us are much worse off than you.

        You should see what I have to do to my body. Just…. ugh…

        1. No, it doesn’t.

          And it also seems to act like a mild exfolliant.

          I honestly assumed my skin would never tolerate shaving dry, and would get all red and irritated with ingrown hairs etc… Not at all. It works well.

          1. I have also gotten a stache in my 30s. Bleaching just gives me a blond stache and I’m super sensitive to waxing (hello ingrown hair & pimple stach) and chemicals (hello red burn stache). I also started shaving our of pure laziness- I just do a couple of swipes once a month or so and have had zero issues. The hair grows back exactly how it started- so if you have thick dark hair, it will grow back thick & dark. For my downy dark hair, you can’t see or feel the re-growth at all until it gets back to its original length.

      2. I do the spring. It’s fairly painful the first time, but not so much if you keep it up. Try it after a shower when the hairs will pull out a bit easier.

      1. I use something similar to a face trimmer for women- if you google you will see what i mean, it is like a razor but doesnt touch your skin so no irritation. I do it whenever i notice it growing back. Takes literally 5 seconds.

    9. I’m going to put in a plug for electrolysis, though it’s a time and money commitment. Best thing I’ve ever done for myself. Seriously, I used to feel so self-conscious. I’m almost done now and don’t even mind hair growing back in because it’s so light and fine.

      1. Razor is A LOT cheaper.

        Electrolysis can take lots of visits, pricey, and doesn’t always work well.

        I honestly do not know how such a huge industry has developed around hair removal for women that can be managed so easily

        1. Yeah, I hear you but I think it’s a question of how much/noticeable your problem is. I had coarse, dark hair on fair skin that cropped up on a daily basis. Electrolysis has definitely taken longer than I anticipated but it works and I don’t have to deal with the anxiety of wondering if anyone can see. I would in a heartbeat drop again the few thousand I’ve spent just not to deal with the anxiety. It also made me way more sympathetic to women who get plastic surgery. Sometimes you just fix the thing you hate and everything really is better.

    10. Oil of Olay makes a depilatory with a soothing cream the is easy and not as irritating as waxing. ( made for the face.)

  2. NY & Company is now participating in Shoprunner and I noticed they are carrying up to size 20 in some styles. This made me happy since they always charged for return shipping. I’ve certainly gotten my money’s worth from the annual fee on my Amex that includes my membership.

    Kate Spade is also on Shoprunner now too. That’s not so great for my wallet though!

    1. Between Shoprunner and return protection (hello, yes, I will try that final sale dress/tank top) I more than save my annual fee on the Amex!

      1. Return protection? Do tell. I use my Amex Shoprunner benefit, but was unaware of the return protection benefit!

        1. It depends on your card – I have the Amex Everyday Preferred, but several of their charge and credit cards offer both return and purchase protection! It is seriously more than worth the annual fee.

          Return protection covers up to $300 (and $1000 a year, I believe, depending on your card) if a qualified purchase that couldn’t be returned for whatever reason within 90 days – merchant wouldn’t accept, restocking fees, etc. If I decide I don’t want to keep an item, I just fill out the claim and usually have the money back in my account the next day. Sometimes they will ask for more proof, particularly over $100, and they can ask you to ship the item back, in new condition/with tags (at your own expense), but I have never been asked to. I just donate it in the case I am not asked to ship it back. I mostly use this benefit on final sale clothes, but have also used it on things like pots and pans I ran out the return period on!

          Purchase protection extends the warranty on any electronic you pay for fully using your Amex – I paid for my then-brand new iPhone 6 on it, and dropped it several weeks later and shattered the screen. They asked for the cost of the repair and for me to highlight the cost of the item on my statement – I got a full refund for what I had paid! (I found out about this benefit from a friend with an Amex Gold)

          1. This is awesome. I have the Blue Cash Preferred card. I will go check out my benefits to see if I have this!

      2. Do you have to pay for Shoprunner? I had a trial once a while ago, but cancelled it. When I buy things from sites that use Shoprunner, though, it gives it to me even though I do not have a paid membership.

        1. I’m not sure what the fee is for the service itself but it is an included benefit on many Amex cards. Is it possible you have membership that way?

  3. Anyone have a favorite pair of black booties they can recommend? I’d like something I can wear to work with pants (business casual). I’m looking for flat or low stacked heel. Nothing I see is inspiring me.

    1. Clark Rosalyn has seen me through this winter. It’s not a low heel (maybe 2 inches at the most) but it’s SO INCREDIBLY COMFORTABLE and looks great both with pants and with black tights.

      1. is that the Rosalyn Lara? those look really cute and the heel is totally doable.

        1. Yep! I got mine for $75 on Amazon. And seriously, I’ve walked for miles in these things, and they’ve been comfortable from day 1.

    2. I love the Crown Vintage Sandy ankle boot from DSW with a stacked heel. Just high enough but still comfortable for walking. Leather, under $100, can be dressed up or down.

    3. I am obsessed with my Blondo Valeries this year. I bought them like 3 days before I went to Japan, wore them ALL OVER Tokyo having only broken them in on like 2-3 wears, and they have been a workhorse for the rest of the winter. So comfortable, zero issues. I got them in gray but I have them on with Ann Taylor suiting pants today. I would love to also pick them up in black.

      1. Ack, correction! I have the Valli, not the Valerie. Had to look it up and typed too fast!

        1. Me too! I love this bootie and have been wearing it constantly in the camel color.

      2. I should add I am kind of tall so mostly wear flats, and I find these insanely comfortable and wearable.

    4. I like the Sam Edelman petty booties but I don’t wear pants to work so not sure how they would look under pants. They’re really comfy.

    5. All my favourite booties are Clarks. Really comfortable but still nice enough for work.

  4. Does anyone else come from a blue collar family but is now working a white collar job themselves?

    My entire family is blue collar. Think mechanics, janitors, security guards, factory workers etc. I am the first one on either side to ever go to college or get any education behind high school. My family is not poor but they are far from rich (no government assistance or free school lunches but old, used cars, hand me down clothes and no vacations outside of our state).

    When I start my job after graduation I will be making in one year what it took my parents two years to make with their combined income, not counting bonuses. Same for my extended family members. I will also be living in a part of town that generally has people with a higher income, I may have a new car and take vacations and will otherwise be able to afford things my family cannot.

    My family is great. They have been nothing but supportive and encouraging. My cousin who is a police officer even introduced me to some lawyers that she knew from court and that led to me getting a great offer for a job after I graduate. It’s not like I need to start helping everyone financially because no one is destitute (I would in a heartbeat if anyone needed it but even though they aren’t well off no one in my family would accept help unless they were struggling anyways.)

    I know I shouldn’t but I feel a little guilty about my career path and new job. I also don’t want my family to think that I think I am better than any of them because I went to college and have a white collar job, because I don’t. My family members are hard working, loving people. I’m the youngest in my generation and it will be a long time before my nieces, nephews and cousin’s kids are college aged so I will be the lone white collar person in my family for a while. Has anyone else ever navigated a situation like this? I would appreciate hearing about it.

    1. Here is a different way to look at it: imagine that you are a secretary married to a welder. Neither of you went to college. Your daughter ends up being super-smart and motivated. Not only does she go to college, she becomes a lawyer, and a successful one, too.

      Winning! Hello, American dream.

      My only advice is to thank them for showing you the value of hard work. Lawyering will be hard, but you had the tremendous advantage of watching members of your family work hard for their money. Continue to be nice, encourage your nieces and nephews to find a path that works for them, and be the fun aunt.

    2. Sort of.

      The commonalities are that I work hard and have a quiet lifestyle (living close in means that my places have never been anything visually impressive even though they are freakishly expensive). Once I had a car, it was a used car that I kept forever.

      B/c I worked all the time, I never really shopped or had fancy clothes. Because I was single, I didn’t take fancy vacations (something I do regret) but got travel experience mainly through work trips. I had a wedding on my family’s budget and in our hometown.

      B/w loans (significant) and higher tax rates and high COL, I may not have had much more free cash than my cousins who starting working at 20 after earning their community college certificates.

      1. I read this and didn’t take much away from it. (Although part of the problem was that I had read an interview with the author before the book and it seemed that all the info from the whole book was in that brief interview.) So I’m wondering, am I missing something here? What did you take away from the book? I feel like it should have resonated with me more, having a blue collar upbringing and a white collar job myself.

        Plus do you have any other article/book suggestions? The topic definitely interests me even though that particular book didn’t.

    3. While I personally did not go through this, I do sympathize and can offer my two cents. I think being from a non-privileged background about to be somewhat wealthy (compared to your family and average american household this young) can probably feel like a clusterf**k. But I dont think you should necessarily feel bad about making a large amount of money this young. The world is unfair and thats just the way it is and you lucked out on getting your job. Just be thankful.

      If you cant help your family out then volunteer with any extra free time you have about a cause that feels good to you, whether it be tutoring those who are less fortunate without access to education, soup kitchen, whatever. If you dont have time, you could give some of your bonus (assuming you dont have a lot of debt or loans) to a food bank, non profit, etc.

      You arent obligated to do any of those things. Its a free country, whatever. But I can guarantee you’ll feel better about it and you have the means to do so, so why not? Good luck with your new job and figuring this all out. You seem like you have a good heart, dont be so hard on yourself =)

    4. More or less. My family straddles the line between blue and white collar, and we did get food pantry food a couple of times when I was growing up. I think my advice is to be quietly sensitive but overall not to think too much about it. That is, don’t feel guilty. That suggests that your life is better than your relative’s. It’s not. You might have more money, and money is something, but your relatives seem to have pretty great lives, too. You seem to admire them and that more than anything will shine through. Continue to look up to your older relatives and be open to learning from them. That said, don’t bring truffled potato croquettes from the chicest boutique to Thanksgiving dinner if you know that everyone else will be making pies and green bean casserole in their own kitchens. Be careful whom you treat to dinner. Some relatives might enjoy a fancy dinner on you (your parents perhaps) but others might feel resentful. Only you know which relatives will feel that way. Never look down on the restaurants or entertainments your relatives enjoy. If Olive Garden is where they go for a special occasion, be excited and grateful for a chance to go to Olive Garden with your family. Honestly you sound like you’re going to be okay. Your love and respect for your family is evident and that’s what they’ll feel.

      1. I second this advice. My dad dropped out of high school but went in the navy. He got a great job and by the time he retired he was managing three shifts of chemists, many of whom had masters degrees or higher. But his compensation stagnated due to his limited formal education. When I was weighing law school job options, my dad commented that the amount I would make in my first year was the same amount he made the year he retired. But, he was THRILLED. It is what he always wanted for his kids. He couldn’t be prouder.

        But, they need some help and they will.not.ask and very very rarely will accept it. I bought their plane and hotel tix to see my SIL get married. They insisted on paying what they could towards it and gave me $800. I really really really did not want to accept the money but it was so important to my mom to give it to me. I try to help in more subtle ways. Their cat is on an expensive food I get for cheap as an animal shelter volunteer. I get them their food and usually refuse to accept money for it.

        They much prefer we help with labor than money. So I can pay someone to come remove the tree from their yard and they will be annoyed and refuse it. Or, we can happen to be there for the weekend, go out with a chain saw and get rid of the tree and they are thankful.

        My extended family has some mental health issues. I have completely cut off my aunt/godmother. But her last tirade against me involved her telling my dad that his hoity toity (how the heck is that spelled?) lawyer daughter violated her son’s civil rights when she took his drunk ass home instead of letting him ruin a 100th birthday party at a nursing home. Oh well. Can’t win them all.

      2. + 100. We are the same boat. Both sets of parents do not like being ‘treated’ and we tone down gifts, parties, food etc. it just makes it easier. No catered holiday dinners or anything like that. we might think that’s great but it shows up as obnoxious. Frankly, my blue collar brother makes more than me and he and his family are very happy.

        Our parents are very proud of us though, they just like an even playing field when we are together. We take turns buying food, wine etc

    5. I have a different experience but I do have some parallels. My in-laws are interesting. FIL and MIL both went to college, FIL was an engineer and MIL had a social sciences degree that she parlayed into a part-time job within the school system after a few years as a SAHM. They had three boys, of which my husband is the only one who went to college.

      Of the wives, I am also the only one who went to college. Thanks to our educations, my husband and I both work at jobs that we love, are extremely demanding, and pay enough to make us a decent living. We live quite frugally in most respects (e.g., we always say we don’t make enough money to have cable or buy newer cars than our fully paid off Toyota) but we did buy a nice house in a good school district. I should also add that we don’t talk about money with any of these siblings. One of his brothers in particular is constantly making comments about how ‘it must be nice’ to ‘not have a real job and just sit at a desk’. This really digs at me as I have one of those jobs where a leisurely lunch means I have 15 minutes to go outside and see some sunshine on a nice day after scarfing down a granola bar at my desk.

      It sort of bothers me with regards to my nieces and nephews. They simultaneously make comments about how ‘college is a waste of money’ while lamenting things like their lack of raises/ability to be promoted and lack of any type of retirement planning. I am fully pro tech-schools and agree that not everyone has to go to college, but I hate watching my nieces and nephews be poisoned against any potential choices to go to college.

      To answer your questions: as someone who came from an area where people rarely went to college and if they did, it was to be a teacher, the best thing I have found is to keep being yourself. I don’t talk about money and generally let the other person drive the conversation. I let the jabs (which happen) roll off my back, but remind myself that the comments are only symptoms of their frustrations.

      1. I posted earlier, but I am blessed, blessed to have a family that values hard work and working as smart as you can. They are all readers. They totally get the value of $.

        They think it’s good that I have a job that I’m doing well, but hate that it means I have to live far from family, get few vacations, and don’t get to see my children that much. So, they know that there’s more $, but they really see the trade-offs. My cousin has a son who might go to college for engineering, but of the others, many of the other college attendees may go to local state U (and maybe 2-year degree before it) to teach.

        There are many different types of having-less-$. We don’t have golf handicaps or country club memberships. We don’t go away to camp. We join the military out of high school. We cut hair. It’s all good, every last bit of it. [But the “it must be nice” stuff would drive me nuts. It doesn’t happen in my family, thankfully.]

    6. My biggest piece of practical advice is figure out how you want to handle helping out other family members financially. Make the decision now about what you are willing to help out with and what you are not and stick to it over the years. Personally, I will always help out with plane tickets and hotels when terrible things happen because I believe that you should always be able to get home or get to your kid. I normally just lie and say it was airmiles (rather than out of pocket money). I will not help out with everyday things (except maybe extracurricular activities for kids) or loan money. Because I never have, there is no expectation that I will. And also, do things discretely and never expect recognition. But, that’s just my two cents.

      1. My aunt also helped out with plane tickets in times of emergency or for important events like family weddings that she told me were from airline miles but I suspect we actually her just buying them. It really made a big difference in my life at those times. She also did things like rent a vacation house and invite the whole family to come and “split the cost” and I’m pretty sure she charged everyone way less than their share while paying the bulk of it herself .

        On the other hand, especially if you have loans or are in a HCOL city, don’t let yourself be guilted into paying for everything. You don’t know how much your relatives are making, but several of my family member work blue collar union jobs and actually make really good money now that they have a lot of seniority – money was tight when they were younger, but now that the kids are out of the house, the house is paid off and they have received the step increases negotiated by the union, they are doing pretty well for themselves.

        Last, you’ll want to talk to a financial advisor eventually, because chances are you were given life lessons in how to pinch pennies but not how to manage big money. Also be aware of falling into the trap (I still do it sometimes) of going for the cheapest option rather than the higher quality option that will last longer and be cheaper in the long run.

    7. You sound like you will handle it beautifully! The biggest piece of advice I have is simply not to discuss money. Our parents did not go to college, and of our siblings and corresponding spouses only one did – and she’s a teacher, which, like a previous poster mentioned, was probably the most common college route for high school grads in our area. College was not common, and if you went, you went to the community college.

      I think that our families know that we make good money, but they do not know how much (well, my MIL does now as she was visiting when I was negotiating a job offer). I prefer it that way! They don’t understand that we have significant student loans so we aren’t exactly rolling in cash. Plus, we have two small children – not a minor expense. :)

      You can be happy and live a fulfilling life at nearly any income level. You can also live above your means and be miserable at any income level. It sounds like your relatives are on the right side of that equation, and they have taught you well. Beware lifestyle inflation!

    8. Yes, my inlaws are blue collar (tradesman and an admin clerk) and my parents straddled that line. My dad was in lower management but my mom was a SAHM, so their income was probably less than my ILs.
      We never went hungry or anything but we definitely didn’t replace things right away when they broke (no TV in the house for 9 months, twice). Vacations were tent-camping. My dad taped a clear garbage bag over a car window that broke, and it stayed like that for 6 months. We never ate out or ordered pizza.

      My ILs have no trouble accepting $ from us. DH comes from a large extended family, my ILs host Christmas dinner and other events, we pay for the turkey/meat etc for 30-60 people (MIL started requesting this a few years ago). She also asks for quite expensive, very specific Christmas presents. We are expected to take them (and my BIL that lives at home) out for dinner on their birthdays, but them (OK, her) presents etc.

      My parents live across the country and I think actually have less $ than my ILs. But they would never ask, and would not appreciate my offering (they are fine regarding day to day expenses, able to take an annual vacation etc.). We also do not have a tradition of exchanging presents for birthdays or Christmas as we are all adults (they send a book or small toy for my children).

      One thing I have been able to do, is take my dad’s airmiles card, since we buy so much more than them, and then my parents use the airmiles (probably pays for their trip to see us annually). Another is that I have been helping my sister, who is struggling financially through a divorce. She is the larger income and is paying for most things (2 homes etc). Once they have sold their marital home things will get easier. Because I am helping her, my parents haven’t had to.

      In terms of my DH’s extended family, they are all aware that we have (what they would call) “big jobs”. A couple of his cousins have professional jobs as well, but the majority are blue or pink collar. But we don’t flaunt our incomes, at all. We have a small-ish house (but in an expensive part of town that is very convenient for us for work), we drive “regular” cars. Most of our disposable income goes into retirement savings, educations saving, and 2 vacations (not fancy, but we have 3 children so flights add up for the winter vacation), and we are close to being mortgage free. Family wouldn’t see any of that (except the vacations). We gift on the higher end for weddings, showers, milestones etc etc. We started an educations savings plan for our godchild (the child of a cousin) and gave it to her when she turned 18.

      A lot of my colleagues grew up very well off, and they spend money like water. I’m pretty grateful to have grown up the way I did, and value money the way I do (to me it is about freedom).

      You didn’t ask this, because you are just starting out but I do think, quite a bit, about my children’s experience. They have no real idea of what we make. We live in a neighbourhood where a lot of people have more lavish lifestyles (cottages, kids have iPhones etc, European vacations, lots of dinners out etc) than we do. But they also have 2 pretty nice vacations a year and are in expensive activities like hockey, dance, music, and martial arts. They have iPods, and use of tablets and laptops.
      It is a balancing act. I need the vacations to recharge. And I can pay for the stuff they want to be in (they have to help a little too, out of their allowance, or via labour). But I don’t want them to think that this is “normal” and that most people can do that so easily.

      1. I think that’s great that you’re thinking about your kids’ experiences. My parents genuinely did not have a lot of money but made sure we always had more than enough food (cheaper than take out or eating out), $ for music lessons and sports, $ for summer enrichment activities.

        Part of it was that my relatives were in a different country and my parents always needed to set aside some money for visits every few years.

        I also grew up in a vacation destination so that meant that we took a family vacation that didn’t involve flying to visit relatives, once before I was 18 because it just wasn’t a financial priority.

        So what I experienced was that we prioritized basic needs (food, shelter (smaller house in a better neighborhood), etc,) and education/enrichment over spending money for clothes/vacations.

        I am grateful to my parents for instilling those values and making those sacrifices and modeling such values early on because now I find myself doing the same but on a more relaxed basis.

  5. I didn’t get a promotion I was expecting. I was told it was coming, I had a phenomenal review, was told I was a top performer, but it just wasn’t my time quite yet.

    Then I found out someone I cannot stand got it instead.

    How do I deal? I feel humiliated and hate coming to work now.

    1. I’m sorry. That sucks. Could you talk to your boss? Ask what it would take for you to be promoted.

    2. Oh that’s a terrible feeling! I second try talking to your boss? Or imagine that you are bound for bigger, better, more interesting things than the person you don’t like?

  6. Let’s talk photos. I like to display a few pictures from my most recent vacation either at work or at home, but I’m over just framing them. How do you display your photos? Especially intrested in DIY ideas or a lesser known company that do interesting things, basically beyond the shutterfly’s of the world.

    1. For Christmas this year, my nanny bought a big (like 2+ feet tall) wooden P (our family’s last initial) and she used modge podge (or something similar) to put photos all over it of the kids. its awesome and we have it hanging right in our kitchen/family room. She did all black and white, but color would be cool too.

      1. I think that’s a really fun idea! A few color photos mixed in with mostly b&w could be interesting too.

    1. I like Shoptagr. You can install a button in your browser to add items, it’s very convenient.

    2. Not exactly the same but there is an app called slice that tracks shipments but it also tells you if the item goes on sale after you buy it and directs you to the information to request a price adjustment.

  7. How do you know when it’s time to move jobs?

    I’m a senior associate in BigLaw. Generally the firm isn’t as bad as most of the other BigLaw firms in terms of hours although the main issue for me is more the ability to switch off after I leave the office. However, there is a bit of a culture shift afoot, bringing higher target hours with it and I’d rather work fewer hours than more in the future. Looking at the partners here and the fact that there are two other people ahead of me in seniority, partnership here isn’t really that tempting but it could be possible in maybe 3-4 years (people tend to get promoted to counsel here first before partner to prolong the pain…). Couple that with the fact I have serious motivational problems in that I can barely get any work done unless I absolutely have to, I figure these might be signs it’s time to move on.

    That said, I really like the people I work with, we have a great fun team and generally (when I can be bothered to do it) I like the work. I have a good reputation here and I’m concerned that moving on to somewhere else may be a mistake. There are roles out there and I interviewed somewhere this week where the recruiter indicated they would come back with an offer, but I’ve been here since I left law school so cutting the aprons strings is hard.

    How am I supposed to decide this when I don’t absolutely *hate* my current job? Other than the stuff above, what should I be thinking about in this scenario? I’ve almost paid off my loans, so the money isn’t a huge factor in this.

    1. Do not wait until you hate your job. You’ll be desperate and not only can employers sense that, you’ll be at a disadvantage at the bargaining table. It’s hard to tell from your post what you want. What do you want in 5yrs? 10 yrs? Do you *want* to be partner where you are? Is it likely to happen? How will you feel if you stick around and are passed over? Do you want it enough to be willing to risk that? (I’m sensing no.) You’re still pretty marketable at your current level. What about going to a different firm with different billables expectations? Do you like the work you do? Is your only issue that you would like to do 2000 hrs/yr of exactly what you do but not 2400 hrs? When you say you can’t switch off, do you mean that *you* can’t switch off, or that your email keeps pinging all night and on weekends?

      1. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head – I don’t really know what I want. I’d love to do regular hours doing what I do now, be busy during the day but then be able to leave at a predictable time. I know that the answer to that is in-house, but I have been on secondment to clients and it doesn’t really appeal to me.

        I don’t think I want to be a partner here, but I don’t know whether I’d want to be partner anywhere. I like the work I do now, but I am an introvert and I hate marketing, schmoozing clients etc. However, it’s not really clear to me what I would do in the alternative, as I don’t want to be a career associate either, I want to progress. If I did stick around, I think I would make partner here in a few years, but I don’t really relish the prospect.

        I’m pretty good at switching off when needed – I won’t usually take my work phone with me on the weekends and I don’t reply to emails after 9pm unless I’m on a deal and/or in the office and I have a (good) reputation in the team as being the only person who says no, and I have a bit more control over things now as a senior associate. But, the billable expectations isn’t really the issue, it’s the conference calls on a Sunday and the unnecessary fire drills (the partner in my team is insecure and terrified that clients will leave him if he doesn’t turn everything around within five minutes). It’s the unpredictability and the fear of your weekend or evening plans being ruined, more than them actually being ruined all the time.

        1. This was my DH in a nutshell a year ago. He worked for the same firm since graduation (and was their summer associate as well while in school). He was on the partner track but didn’t really want to be a partner, for similar reasons as you.

          Since he didn’t hate his job (and actually really enjoyed his colleagues), he reached out to a few recruiters with specific criteria of what he was looking for in a new role. It took awhile, but now he works in-house for a large global corporation and loves it. The work is less interesting for him, but the work-life balance and stress/pressure reduction improved his QoL greatly. Mine too! :)

    2. I could have written this post and I will be following responses with great, great interest. You’re not alone.

  8. Does anyone have advice on hiring an individual house cleaner (vs a service)? I have to fire my current service because there is every indication that they broke our garbage disposal but not only did they deny touching it, they immediately blamed our au pair. I can’t tolerate that kind of thing so I’m in the market again (they haven’t been stellar in other areas, either, but this is just not okay). We currently pay $165 to have our townhouse cleaned monthly. While I know there are up sides to using a service, I’m thinking of trying to get an individual. The problem is that s/he absolutely has to be authorized to work in the US. Has anyone had luck hiring a cleaner on care.com? Other places I should look? Also, anyone know the going rate for cleaners in the DC area? I was thinking $15/hr or so — is that too low?

    1. We found our housekeeper through word of mouth. It took a few months. Ask friends, neighbors, other parents, etc. Several other people we know used this person and could vouch for her reliability and honesty. We had always used a service before, but got tired of having different people coming through the house with varying results.
      The price differential meant we could move to more frequent cleanings. And, since she is at our house more, she’s able to “customize” what needs doing each week instead of following some corporate list.

    2. I expect that’s vastly too low. I had independent housekeepers for years (2009-2013). I lived in a couple places in that time, and a couple different southern cities, and on average I’d say I paid $100/week for a 2000 sq ft house that took them 2-3 hours to clean. The best way to find them is word of mouth, but if not, then craigslist and check references. I’m actually friends still with the woman who cleaned my house in 2009 – found her on Craigslist and she had amazing references.

      1. Good to know. When you say “them,” did you have more than one cleaner? (Trying to figure out the rate — was it one person working 2-3hrs for $100 total, or two people, i.e., 4-6 hrs of work?)

      2. I agree. we are in Chicago (which I suspect has similar going rates). we have 2 ladies that come each week and stay for about 5 hours. Our house is 5,000 sq ft. we pay $200/week, so that’s about $20/hour for each. If there was only one person, $20/hour would still be the rate, but it would take a lot longer.

        Also, I agree that unless you are going to use a service (merry maids etc), word of mouth is the best way to go.

        1. Since you’re in Chicago – would you mind sharing who you use? I am on the market for a housecleaner as well!

          1. we don’t use a service. We use two ladies who get their clients by word of mouth. They cleaned our house for the previous owners. When we moved in, we liked them so they just kept doing it.

            Ask some of your friends IRL who they use and if anyone is picking up new clients.

    3. $15/hour is way too low even without authorization to work in the US. I’m in the Twin Cities and have an individual (she’s a citizen) cleaning my not-that-big house every two weeks for about two hours for about $30/hour. She brings all her own supplies, but the costs aren’t all that different from what I paid almost 15 years ago when I lived in DC for an individual who I had my doubts about their legal status but came highly recommended from a friend. Recommendations are key!

      1. I wasn’t meaning to lowball anyone. I had a babysitter a few hours a week at one time who was principally a housecleaner (for other people — she only babysat for me) and she charged $14/hr for babysitting, and she was a citizen. She cleans my friend’s house and I think she charges them $15. So I guess she was just really really cheap!

    4. We spoke with a bunch of individual cleaners used by our friends and neighbors, and found prices ranging from $80-$150 for our 1400 sq foot house in suburban Md. We use the $80 cleaners and they’re great. They don’t do the deeeeeeepest clean at that price so every so often we have them do a real deep clean and they charge a little more. It’s a couple of sisters who clean together and do the whole house in 1.5 hours.

      1. In contrast my parents on the wets coast have had the same lady clean for years and I think she charges $65 for their 3000 sq foot house.

        1. That’s ….. crazy.

          Your parents need to give their cleaning lady a raise.

          We all expect raises every year. Do not abuse the poor workers who support your lifestyle by treating them differently.

    5. Mine charge $100 to clean my two bedroom one bath apartment once per month in DC. I have no idea ho w many hours that take. I believe more than once person comes to do it.

      1. This is in the range of ours: $90 for 2 bd/ 1 ba in SF Bay Area, 2x/ month.

        We found our cleaner through word of mouth via friends. She usually brings 1-2 people with her, and I think it takes them 1.5-2 hrs to clean the place, so that’s probably $25-$30/ hr. (maybe more for the biz owner and less for her co-workers).

    6. $15/hr is too low. That is hard work. And you are in a high cost of living area. At least pay $25 per hour.

      We pay too high… $50 per hour, but it is someone that has been cleaning for my family for decades, does a fabulous job, and we trust.

      But $15…. just…. no. Especially if you are only doing it once a month, which is harder for them because your house is dirtier. Cleaning is very hard work, when it is done well. By someone you trust. That doesn’t steal from you.

      Definitely ask your neighbors if they use someone, if so for how long and how much they pay.

      My friend in LA just revealed to me that she pays her housekeeper (an undocumented immigrant) $15 per hour. Her cleaner is amazing, and in addition does her laundry, does her food shopping, and cooks her dinners for the week and puts them in the fridge. $15 per hour is just … practically abuse.

          1. Can you talk to your friend at all? I know it’s really hard to do, but this housekeeper probably has very little recourse of her own if she’s undocumented.

          2. I told her how inappropriate this is. She has also never given my housekeeper a raise, and acts like “this is the way its done here… in LA…..”. My friend can easily afford to pay her housekeeper much more. And this amazing housekeeper practically acts like a mother figure for her. My friend is quite dysfunctional.

            Part of her rationalization stems from classist and racist undertones. She would never admit it, but it is clear.

            She is a professor. She states why should recent graduates who work as technicians in her laboratory get paid less than an “uneducated worker”. I reminded her that her 22 year old technicians may earn relatively low salaries, but they have health insurance, retirement plans, yearly raises, promotions and chances of advancing their careers. Her poor housekeeper raises a family on her small income, is likely stuck in low paying jobs like this for the rest of her life, has no insurance, no retirement plan, no raises…. or respect from her employers. And she has to face to possibility of deportation.

            Interestingly, my friend is originally from India, but has lived in the US for 30 years. Growing up in India she had servants, as was the norm for her peers. As the caste system is much more ingrained there than here, her opinion of service workers is deeply affected by this.

            I am so, so disappointed in her

          3. Why is paying someone more than twice the minimum wage “abuse”? There are lots of people living on the US (and supporting families) on less than $15/hr, and many parts of the country where $15/hr is a perfectly liveable wage (albeit probably not LA). Do you think all of these workers are being abused by their employers? Or are housekeepers special for some reason?

          4. I was a housekeeper at a motel and made minimum wage. I wouldn’t have thought $15/hour was horrible until reading this thread.

          5. Because it’s not $15 an hour like at a job. The woman who cleans for me is self-employed and has to get herself (and all her supplies) to and from each place she cleans. That’s no small task when you’re cleaning apartments in the city. People also cancel from time to time, or they forget to leave a key at the front desk, or various other small issues that impact her schedule. Or she accidentally breaks something and offers to pay for it. So much different than someone making a minimum wage working at Safeway.

          6. Every cleaning service or individual I’ve had has asked me to provide supplies and has charged for the cleaning if it was cancelled on short notice or you were a no-show. Expenses like gas involved in getting from job to job are also tax deductible, no? I get that it’s not exactly like working an 8 hour shift at a Safeway but I still bet a $15/hr self-employed housekeeper comes out well ahead of an $8/hr grocery store clerk, even when all that stuff is taken into account.

      1. That’s horrible. Our cleaner is very soft spoken so we just raise her rate ourselves every once in a while.

      2. Yeah, no. I’m also in LA and our cleaner charges/gets $100 a week for cleaning our house (1000 square feet) which includes a few loads of laundry and one bathroom. There are people who definitely try to pay as little as possible to cleaners and sitters here, but I’m not going to be one of them. Strangely enough, I have a far easier time getting sitters and cleaners to show up / come back than my friends who are always on the hunt for an even cheaper price…

    7. Hourly rates are hard in my experience – we paid $80 I believe for a 2 bed/2 bath apartment in Arlington, VA (around 900 square feet). My friend pays I think $75 to the same person for her 2 bed/1 bath condo. I think it takes her a couple hours but I’m not sure.

    8. Way way way too low. You should be expecting double to triple that for someone who is insured/paying taxes.

    9. And yes, $15 an hour is probably way too low. I’d expect to pay a premium for them to only come once a month, too – 50% to 100% more than a biweekly cleaning.

      1. I’m not sure 15/hr is so low, even if it is on the low end, but you will need to pay more if you want a once a month cleaning only. You basically need to pay extra for the fact that it’s less reliable income.

        1. I think the rationale for paying more for monthly cleaning over biweekly cleaning is actually that cleaning 4 weeks of dirt takes longer/is harder work than cleaning 2 weeks of dirt.

          1. I think it’s both. It’s more to clean, and you don’t get the volume discount that bi-weekly cleanings get.

    10. We pay $100 for bimonthly cleaning of our 2800 sq ft house. It’s an independent woman, her husband, and occasionally a third person and they take 1.5-3 hours.

      I found her through her own advertising, and she is registered as a business in the state. I don’t have strict issues or concerns about legality, but the fact that she’s a register business was enough for me. I don’t know if her husband and friend are legally working for her, I suppose, but isn’t this her issue? If I were a politician I’d probably ask the nosy questions but I’m not.

    11. I used to have an individual house cleaner. She charged a flat per visit fee but it worked out to about $30/hour. She was a sole practitioner but hired a helper from time to time. I know she was not paying her helper anywhere near $30/hour.

      When I hired her, her quote was 1.5 to 2 times comparable quotes from individuals on Craigslist, but I chose her because she reported her income and paid taxes and had insurance.

      Unfortunately she became unreliable over time, and the quality of cleaning decreased, so I ended up moving to a service. The service is more reliable and charges about the same amount per cleaning, but their model is to send two workers to get it done faster. I would be very surprised if the service paid them even $15/ hour. They may be paid under the table. I have just decided that I don’t want to know.

    12. I pay $75 for a large one bedroom condo downtown. The same woman has been cleaning for me for 3 years now and I give her a $5 raise each year, so her new client rate may be lower than $75. I found her through word of mouth and she’s been fantastic. If you’re interested in a recommendation, post an email address and I’ll send you her info.

      1. For another comparable, I’ve had the same housekeeper for 30 years. We have a 4000 sf house in Bethesda, and she comes twice a week for $360 a week, plus sick leave and vacation. She’s a US citizen. We provide her supplies, and she tells us what brands and materials to purchase. She works about 10 hours a week, so that’s $36 an hour.

  9. Does anyone have any Japan recs? Places to go, stay, eat, how to navigate, resources, etc etc — I need help with it all! This was very spur of the moment but DH and I just bought (super cheap) tickets to Japan (Narita) for the end of March. Six nights. Total budget is… $3000 ish(?) Flights were only $1000 total. Neither of us have ever been but DH has been learning some Japanese for the last six months, so that should be helpful. I’m thinking more like traditional bath houses, nature, cherry blossoms, and DH would love to stay in Tokyo for a night or two. Any guidance would be so, so appreciated!

    1. Make sure you stay at least 1 night in a traditional ryokan, preferably in the countryside or a smaller city (and read up about what that entails first, so you know what to expect). It’s the single best introduction to a more old-fashioned Japanese lifestyle, and it’s just wonderful and calming. Definitely get some personal recommendations for a really traditional place, not something that caters to foreign tourists. Unfortunately I’ve been gone too long to offer any specifics.

      1. +1 I went to Tokyo almost 15 years ago now with my family and our ryokan stay (even though it was just in Tokyo)) is one of the things I remember most strongly about the trip. With 6 nights, I’d definitely try to get to Kyoto. That is my family’s collective biggest regret about our trip and when I get back to Japan, it will be my #1 priority.

        1. And if you are going to go round trip from Tokyo to Kyoto, hurry and order the Japan rail pass so that it can come before you leave the US! When I went 2 years ago, it cost slightly less than the round trip shinkansen from Tokyo to Kyoto plus you can take the other JR trains for free (including the Narita express train to Tokyo and the Tokyo subway loop train).

    2. How on earth did you get tickets that cheap? I wanted to go in September for a friend’s wedding and I can’t find anything under $1450 a piece.

      (I’ve been to Kyoto, Nara, and Kobe visiting this same friend before. Highly recommend Kyoto if you can make it down there. Never been to the Tokyo area, except to transfer through the airport).

      1. American and Delta have been having deals recently (basically going after each other) in the $400 to $600 range to travel soon. I’d try using Google flights. For a friend’s wedding though you’re tied to dates, so you lose a lot of flexibility.

      2. The Flight Deal had a post the other day about $436 to Tokyo from SF and Chicago and $500-something fares from tons of other US cities. Those crazy good fares are usually M-Thurs departures and returns (which is awkward for people who work a traditional office job) and typically don’t get you the correct amount of frequent flier miles so they’re not quite as good a deal as they seem at first glance.

      3. I know–crazy cheap right?! We really lucked out and just started looking at flights to random places when we discovered we had some unexpected time off. Found these in particular on United. Flying from the west coast and leaving on a Tuesday and coming back on a Wednesday, so that was probably the difference. I think flights on that same Friday were in the $600s. I just had to book another flight for work purposes–it’s an hour flight to a neighboring state and it cost the same amount as this Japan flight.

    3. I went a couple months ago, super last minute – took a couple suggestions from this site! There is a ‘rette in Tokyo, but obviously, her hours are pretty off from ours!

      -I rented a mifi from Japan Wireless. I picked it up at the airport, dropped it in the airport mailbox on my way home. Super easy. Totally worth it.
      -Train system was SO easy to use, especially in conjunction with Google Maps (hence, the mifi). Be prepared to walk a lot – I clocked close to if not over 10 miles every day – but that is probably individual (my friend I was with and I are both active and enjoy walking)
      -Really enjoyed going to the top of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government building and nearby, drinks at the Park Hyatt overlooking the Tokyo skyline
      -we did a street food tour at Sunamachi Ginza booked through viatour that I thought was worthwhile. It was a little expensive considering how cheap street food is, but we couldn’t have done it alone and really paid for our guide and her time. there were only 2 of us on the tour, so it was worth it (<$190 for 2 people)
      -we kind of ate wherever – some sushi, some ramen, just looking up places around us.
      -I also enjoyed walking the Imperial Gardens/palace. If you are there on a Sunday morning, they have bikes for free to rent.
      -I found Tokyo Tower/the old city kind of missable. I don't regret doing them, but if you're pressed for time, it was much too crowded and touristy for my preferences. Though at the second we did get these fried donuts with red bean jam inside (I have no idea what they were called) that I would kill to have again.
      -very very cash heavy city/country, compared to other places I have visited. This was fine, I had heard it, but I still hit the ATM a couple times in 4 days.

      We stayed at the Hilton Tokyo Odaiba because we were on government per diem. Most nice hotels are a decent train ride away. The nice, close ones (like staying at the Park Hyatt) are extremely expensive. Our hotel was VERY close to the private line train station direct back to the city, and a kilometer from the other line we took frequently. My friend has status so we ate breakfast there daily, which was a buffet and also good (don't know if it's worth whatever they were charging for it).

      1. I think I mentioned this to another Japan traveler a few weeks back, but check with your cell phone company about their international rates in Japan before bothering with mi-fi. If you have Sprint, adding unlimited data, text, and calls for travel in Japan is only $5 a month. Really fantastic and made a huge difference on my trip in December.

        1. For us, Verizon and AT&T, was sadly not the case (I think it was like $25 for 100mb, which doesn’t go very far) – but definitely a good deal depending on your carrier/plan!

    4. When I was in Japan a few years ago I hired guides from http://www.toursbylocals.com. It wasn’t all that expensive and it was great because I didn’t have to spend one single second worrying about how to navigate logistics (subway, food, money) and could concentrate on doing and seeing the things I wanted to do and see. It worked out great. There are reviews on the site and you can choose pretty much exactly what you want.

    5. Maybe too late in answering…
      I would’ve suggested Kyoto, Kobe, Osaka for all your nature/sight seeing/hot springs ryokan needs. They are clustered cities and can be visited from one to the other with comfort. But you’re landing in Tokyo, so 6 days is way too short to city hop. You can do Tokyo-Kyoto or Tokyo-Kusatsu, or any two city combo but not more because it will be very rushed. Kusatsu is a hot spring town up in the mountain. Go there for hot spring and volcanic mountain touring. Kyoto is great for temples and cherry blossom, likely very crowded, though. Eat your kobe beef, make sure you don’t have tattoos or they won’t let you bathe in the onsen, and stay on your left on sidewalks, escalators, etc to let others by. Japanese are very considerate when it comes to public space.

    6. I’m late in responding as well, but having lived in Japan for 3 years I have to give my input. First, Toyko. Expect to pay a lot and have a small hotel room – but you won’t be there much so it doesn’t matter! Check out Akihabara for the craziness, maybe go to a maid cafe or a cat cafe (google it!). Skip the Tokyo tower, go to the sky tree instead. Definitely see Aasakusa and Meiji Jingu (and while you are there, walk through Harajuku). Senso-ji, Ueno park (especially if it is cherry blossom season), Shibuya for the crazy amount of people and give Hachiko a rub for me. Ameyoko for good food (well, anywhere for good food). Oh and don’t miss the fish market – perfect for the first morning when you wake up early due to jet lag, grab super fresh sushi for breakfast.

      Then I’d head out to Hakone to see Mt. Fuji and stay at a Ryokan, or to Kamakura for the big buddha. Kamakura also has amazing hiking/nature walks.

      Kyoto. If you can afford a ryokan there, it contributes to the whole Kyoto experience. Do the philosophers (sp?) walk and see the golden temple, silver temple, etc. Don’t miss the Fushima Inari shrine – gorgeous. And take a walk through the geisha area, you should be able to google when the best time to go is to see the geishas on their way to work. Try to find a place to have a traditional tea ceremony, they are best in Kyoto.

      Japan is AMAZING and I miss it! Enjoy your trip and please report back! :)

  10. I’m a government attorney and I received a job offer in a mid-law office to do more litigation. My current boss just offered me a nonlegal dream job in my current agency. I think this is a perfect job for me, but am having a hard time coming to terms with leaving the legal practice (and the money in private sector) to do policy work. I’m pretty sure I don’t want to be a lawyer forever but this is scary! Any advice from lawyers who quit law in making the transition?

    1. I’m not in litigation, but I am a lawyer in policy. Could you not try the policy job for a year and see how you like it? If you hate it after a year, reach back out to mid-law or ask your current boss if you can switch back to litigation in your department. Sell it as a “broadening” experience, but that you ultimately missed litigation.

    2. I’d think long and hard about the security of the policy job. Will you have civil service protections? Would you be interested in continuing the policy work if the political leadership and policy direction drastically changes? That happened to me. I ended up leaving government mid-career.

  11. Grumble grumble. Liver flavored dog medicine should be banned. Our dog liked her medicine so much that she stole the prescription bottle and ate it all. Now she’s in danger of liver and kidney failure.

    1. Aarrrgh!!!

      But honestly… why the heck did you leave the medicine out? You need to be the smart one in this relationship. And you must understand why the liver flavor, as it can be hard to get dogs to take some meds. Big mistake, but a good learning point for all of us.

      My fingers are crossed for your puppy.

      1. I’m sure Bonnie is smart enough to be kicking herself and doesn’t need you to also kick her while she’s down.

      2. The medicine was put away in a spot she had never been able to get to but thanks for the guilt trip.

        1. I have seen a dog manage to get up on a counter in order to access the top of the refrigerator and eat half a pan of chocolate brownies in under 5 minutes (hello, cocoa poisoning…fortunately, $900 later, she was okay). Sometimes they just outwit us – I know you feel badly, but honestly something like that happens to every dog owner at some point. Hope your pup is okay!

      3. My dog went through a baby gate (never done before), squished open a closet door (never done that before either), into a zipped duffle bag, to find the sealed and bagged liver tasting medicine of my roommate’s dog (that I had no idea was prescribed tasty and potentially fatal medicine). Sometimes $h1t happens and it’s nice to give someone the benefit of doubt. After 3 nights in the ER and $2500+ in vet bills, my dog was fine and my house was much emptier due to a garage sale. Good luck to the OP’s dog.

    2. I’m so, so sorry. I will think good thoughts for her. Don’t be too hard on yourself. These things happen even to super conscientious dog parents. My pup just ate a chocolate chip muffin (wrapper and all). Fortunately she was fine, but I felt awful.

      1. Agree. I’ll think good thoughts for your dog. Years ago, one of my pups counter surfed for the first time ever in his life (at 9 years old) and ate an entire rotisserie chicken off the counter. Bones and all. He was fine, but we felt awful.

    3. I hope your dog pulls through. My husband once left pain pills on a very high shelf. The cat got up there and knocked the bottle on the floor. (I’m assuming. The only way possible.) The dog ate the bottle open and then licked all the candy coating off of all of the pills. She was luckily fine but animals are just nuts. Mine has eaten glass (after cat knocked a glass on the floor. I’m seeing a pattern hear), a pumpkin and a bird seed suet bell. All of which resulted in GI disasters.

      She also picked up a baby skunk and was sprayed down her throat (after escaping our grip when going from out door deck to inside house). She once ran off into the woods behind our house and came back with an entire deer leg. I’m assuming a hunter left the legs and she didn’t dismember it herself. She was so proud, bounding back from the woods, leg with hoof still intact dangling from her mouth. I also played tug of war in the dark with her before I realized her rope toy was actually a snake. A dead snake but still a snake.

      I’ll keep you and your pup in my thoughts/prayers/vibes/intentions!

        1. At the time, very possibly. It was their first year with us and we had the cat a few months before we got the dog. They are generally friends now but the cat is still absolutely the boss (19 pound orange and white, double paws and diabetes). He will occasionally run around the house and then just pounce on the dog and bite her for no reason. Usually while she is sleeping. That first year he left a small scar under her chin. And the dog is a rottweiler shepherd and just tolerates it. I have a great picture of this nice big dog bed with the dog’s name on it and the cat sprawled out across it, with the dog pouting on the floor. Empty cat beds everywhere. We now have two dog beds to keep the peace. He can’t be on both at the same time, though he tries.

        2. Oh and we were thankful the dog didn’t eat the whole pills for two reasons. One, she didn’t get sick. Two, my husband was able to take them back to the doc to prove his dog really had destroyed his pain pills and he needed more. He was recovering from an injury and would have been in real bad shape without them. I guess the coating was delicious but the actual pills were not.

          1. My grandparents owned a pharmacy and while “babysitting” me, discovered that I loved to suck on the pills as a baby but would spit it out once they aren’t sweet. They tell this story as “aww, how cute” and i’m just like, WHAT?! YOU LEFT PILLS AROUND A BABY?!

      1. My cat and dog do this. We put the cat food on top of a chest of drawers so the dog wouldn’t eat it and the cat would take out individual treats and fling them for the dog to eat. They are troublemakers, my two.

        1. Wasn’t me, but growing up my family had a dog who loved to eat socks. Not sure what it was about socks, specifically, but she loved ’em.

      2. A dead snake?!? Oh just oh. Mine loves rolling on them at the swampy forest preserve near my house and it’s gotten me to gag levels. I can’t even imagine having to touch one and then not even knowing it at first. I just can’t even imagine.

    4. Thanks for the support all. Poison control center thinks she should be ok and we were able to start her quickly on meds. I guess her paw feels better if she was able to get up so high.

  12. Has anyone used the Reddit bra fitting advice (a bra that fits group). I did the bra calculator and the indicated cup size seems unrealistically large to me.

    I’ve had fittings at Nordstrom and bra shops and they fitted me in a DD cup. Reddit says I’m a J cup. Same band size.

    I like the bras I have Ok but I do notice when I raise my arms to take my top off at the end of the day, the underwires lift up off my chest and I see bra tissue underneath.

    I wonder if I’m doing the measurements right.

        1. It seems like if you really were supposed to wear a bra 5 cup sizes larger, you’d be squeezed out of your current bra. I would try maybe one cup size up or so to see if you like it better, if you feel it the cups might be small. Bra brands all run a little differently. I think the Reddit forum has a lot of people wearing bras from obscure Polish manufacturers that are probably sized differently, so when they say they’re a 26MM or whatever, it’s really not that size in most bra brands.

          1. It’s a good idea. My bra (Prima Donna Deauville) is sold on Amazon so I ordered one and two cups up and will take advantage of the free returns for whatever doesn’t work.

    1. It really depends what bras you’re wearing – European brands have a wider range of cup sizes (and are more consistent in their sizing from brand to brand) than US brands. A lot of the brands sold at Nordstrom only go up to DDD or E, so it stands to reason that you were sized as a DD (a size they sell). I am also a J cup on European sizes, and an E cup in US sizes, with the same band size in both so I’d say the calculator was about right.

      1. J is the US conversion of the U.K. Cup, which is H/HH

        I wear an E in Prima Donna, which I think is Euro.

    2. I did it recently and ordered 6 32FF bras online (I had been wearing 34DDD). I was surprised to find that all of the bands fit, one bra was perfect and the other 5 were close, but a a tad small on one side only :( But the calculator made me realize what was and wasn’t working with the bras I had been wearing.

      1. Isn’t a DDD an F cup, and a FF would be a G? When I buy bras, I’m between a DD (E) or a DDD (F) and that is how the sizes are listed for mainstream brands, like Natori and Chantelle. Sometimes I see people say that DD and E are different sizes, but I’m not aware of any brands where they are actually two distinct sizes. Bras are confusing.

    3. I’m the OP. Thanks for all the feedback. I agree bras are hard!

      Before Nordstom fitting I was wearing a D cup in the dream tisha bra that used to be a this s ite favorite. I thought it fit but it just drove me crazy and I couldn’t wait to get it off at the end of the day. I also had a chronic rash between my breasts.

      When I went up to a E in Chantelle, the bra was unlined, which took some getting used to but the cup was a much much better fit. It actually separated my breasts and voila, the rash went away. I think it was from the dream tisha squeeZing my breasts together.

      Then I went to a boutique and got the Prima Donna. Same size but much sturdier bra and I no longer feel like i need to get my bra off the moment I walk in the door at the end of the day.

      So the only issue I have now is that by the end of the day the bra is riding up on my breast tissue a bit. I tried a band size down and a cup size larger recently, but I couldn’t get it fastened – much too small. So that led me to Reddit and the very strange results.

      Based on your advice, maybe it’s the brand. I will try a cup size and two cup sizes larger and see if that helps. I don’t *think* my breast size has changed in 6 months, but I’m in perimenopause and that does all sorts of weird things.

      1. Fit issues can also have a lot to do with the style of the bra rather than just the size. I have a number of bras that are all the same size and all the same brand, but some of them sit weirdly, give me double boob, hurt my shoulders, etc. whereas others don’t. I’ve learned that a balconette bra is the best for my particular shape of boob, so that may be the missing piece of your bra search. (And yes, mesh cups are much easier to fit than molded cups!)

  13. I need some help wordsmithing a response…my first draft sounds bitter and nasty ;)

    A former coworker of mine is at New Company. I was laid off recently. I just got a note from her saying that she was recently at an industry event and caught up with all our old coworkers, and it was so nice to see everyone. Oh, and hey, do I still have the materials/frameworks from Big Project at old company I could send her since now she is trying to something similar?

    I *know* she knows I got laid off, for lots of reasons, the largest of which is someone told me they told her! She didn’t mention it. She also asked me to give her work that took me 1-2 months to do at our former old company (I basically build framework for strategic planning, which she is now wanting to crib). Not only is this old company’s property, but it’s something she should either do herself or pay a consultant (ideally, me!) to do.

    I am trying to craft a response saying something to the effect of I’m no longer with old company, that the framework was really specific to old company anyway and if she’d be interest I’d be more than happy to chat with her either about my methods or even better if she has consulting dollars I’d love to do it for her.

    Is the problem that this is a call and not an email? I can also just say “nope, don’t have it!” But frankly, I know this person well and she’s got deep pockets with an itch to spend on consulting, which I’d love to tap into.

    1. If you are really interested in the consulting work, maybe something like:

      Dear Coworker,

      I’m so glad you got in touch. Unfortunately, I am no longer with Old Company and do not have access to those materials, and further, much of the final work product may not be applicable to New Company because of [vague reason why it’s unique]. I would be happy to meet with you discuss whether my experience in the methods we used on Old Company’s project could be applied at New Company.

      Anonymous

    2. You can’t take what you developed at your old company anyway. It’s their intellectual property because they paid you to do it (see: every Silicon Valley lawsuit ever)

      It’s unethical that she’s asking you to do this, and I’d think carefully about agreeing to consult for her and essentially recreate what the old company rightfully owns.

      1. I know this, of course, but she’s kind of a dummy. It’s laziness on her part, not malice.

        Based on y’alls response my initially b*tchy response was pretty warranted (it basically said “of course I don’t have it, it’s IP, and even if I did have it, why would i give it to you??).

        But she’s in a role with a big budget for outsourcing things she thinks are too hard (like this…) and I am hoping to get in on it. I ended up with anvaguenemail about if she’d be interested about learning about my methodology or better yet interested in outsourcing here’s my contact info.

      2. I know this, of course, but she’s kind of a dummy. It’s laziness on her part, not malice.

        Based on y’alls response my initially b*tchy response was pretty warranted (it basically said “of course I don’t have it, it’s IP, and even if I did have it, why would i give it to you??).

        But she’s in a role with a big budget for outsourcing things she thinks are too hard (like this…) and I am hoping to get in on it. I ended up with anvaguenemail about if she’d be interested about learning about my methodology or better yet interested in outsourcing here’s my contact info.

        About recreating- it’s above board for me to go in and build and coach a group through a strategic planning framework for a totally different org. But I’d never give the one I build for another org…or on another org’s time!

  14. I know I might get slammed for this but I have recently been considering chin liposuction and was wondering if anyone here had any experience with it? I’m frustrated with a slight double chin that persists no matter my weight and it seems like a relatively inexpensive procedure.

    1. I don’t have any experience with it, but I’m not sure why you would get slammed. If you have the time, money and inclination for cosmetic surgery, that’s your deal and no one else’s.

    2. No judgment! I have an overbite/recessed jaw, so even when I was at my thinnest (size 4) I had a fairly prominent double chin. My doctor had recommended having my jaw broken and re-aligned when I was 15 to correct it, but I said no. I sort of regret that decision, but oh well. I’ve been considering chin lipo, but when I consulted with a few doctors, it was more expensive than other plastic surgery procedures (more than implants, nose jobs, full body lipo). They said it’s a delicate area that takes longer to work on, which is why it’s higher, so the cost scared me off.

      A drug was recently approved. It’s called Kybella, and it decreases the double chin after a few injections. It’s still expensive, but without the downtime/pain of surgery.

      1. From what I’ve seen with my research online, it looks like it would cost $2-$3k. What prices were you quoted?

        I was considering Kybella but I saw some before/after pictures and it just doesn’t look nearly as effective. Plus, I think you have to go in a few times for the shots so ultimately, I don’t think it even ends up costing that much less.

        1. I was quoted between $6,000-10,000 in consultations with 3 diff doctors.That was in the Philly area, so obviously costs may vary

          1. That seems like a lot more than what my research indicates- maybe it was because of your jaw issues?

        2. This is me! Size 2, but have always had a double chin (genetics). I’ve been so self-conscious of it my entire life but haven’t been able to afford lipo. Just had my first Kybella injection 9 days ago, and my second one is scheduled for early April. I definitely recommend it, especially for younger women whose skin will bounce back (as my derm has promised me – I’m 34). It’s too soon for me to see the full results, but it was completely painless and I was back at work the next day. I paid $700 and am in the metro DC area.

    3. Rather than liposuction, which will take the fat and leave the skin (which will then be more susceptible to sagging later on — ask me how I know), you might want to look into a lower face lift. Definitely talk to a cosmetic surgeon and see what he/she has to say about the pros and cons of both.

      1. Uh oh – how do you know? Did you have it done? I don’t think I’d even be a candidate for a partial face lift (nor do I want the scar) because I’m quite young (mid 20s).

        1. I had chin liposuction when I was younger and it was fine for a while. Later on, though, I developed one heck of a turkey neck and went ahead and had a lower face lift to fix it. Scars are behind the ears so that’s not really an issue, but yeah, 20s is probably way too young. Just be aware the skin may be looser after chin lipo.

          And yes, I am pretty much a cyber woman at this point…

          1. Ooh, that’s good to know. I will have to ask the doctors about that. Maybe they can just do a little and that won’t cause sagging later on.

        2. If you are a bit retrognathic, a chin implant might be an option to pull that tissue up and into a more appropriate location as opposed to just trying to reduce it. Chin implants can also be done completely through the mouth, whereas liposuction will leave an external scar.

          If I was you I would consult with a good facial plastic surgeon about your options!

    4. A friend recently had a chin implant and liposuction and I think she paid around $5000 (Canadian) altogether. Pretty sure the lipo was less than the implant, so I want to say $2000-ish???

      1. Thanks, that seems in line with what I’ve researched. I don’t want any implants so that should cut the cost by a lot.

  15. I’m moving to a new state where I will need to get a car (currently in a big city carless). I’ll probably go with a lease just because I don’t know how long I’ll be staying in this state (2 years versus 10) to need to buy. What is the right order to do this in? I need to get insurance and change my license to the new state. Do I pick a car, go home and call insurance, then change my license? Insurance first? License first? (Which will be difficult since I’d have to pay for a rental until then) Help!

    1. Car, insurance, license, likely in that order, I think. Or call your insurance agent ahead of time and they can walk you through what needs to be done once you get to your new location.

    2. Do you have any insurance now? If you don’t, you may want to shop around and see what you want to do, but generally if you already have insurance, you can call from the dealership to get the car covered and arrange for proof of insurance. As for your license, I don’t know that you necessarily need to change it. They only care that you have a license – not that it’s for the state in which you’re buying/leasing.

    3. License is unrelated. Most states say you need to switch your license within 30-60 days of establishing a domicile. Car dealers and insurance companies don’t care where you’re licensed.

      I’d be hesitant for you to get a lease. You haven’t driven in years, so you don’t have a sense of how many miles you’ll be traveling regularly. Thinking “it’s X miles from home to office” isn’t a reliable calculator for real life – there are errands, weekends out of town, etc.

      Comparison shop insurance companies in advance and decide on who you want to go with. When you decide on a car, the dealership will call the company and activate your insurance before you drive off the lot.

      1. Thanks, it actually hasn’t been all that long since I’ve driven and I’ve lived in this state before, so I know how much driving to expect to do. Last time I just already had a car when I got there.

        So I don’t currently have an insurance agent since I don’t have a car, but I can call and get estimates without knowing exactly what car I’m going to get?

        1. Narrow it down to the make and model of car you’re most likely to get, then call. Even if you don’t end up with that car, you’ll know about where the companies fall for rates.

      2. My state won’t let you register your car until you get an in-state license. They also won’t let you get a full license unless you have car insurance (they have some weird category for people who don’t own a car and therefore don’t have car insurance) As you may realize, this creates a weird cycle that makes it incredibly difficult if you move without already owning a car that I’m honestly not sure how people manage. So in short, just check your state and make sure they don’t have similar requirements.

    4. I will preface this by saying I actually work in automotive, because every time I comment on one of these threads someone announces that I’m wrong because they’ve bought used car and they *know*. You need to change your license first, it’s important for the ownership of the vehicle and licensing. Second, pick out a car. Get insurance. Go back to dealership and pick up car. I’d also recommend not just getting the cheapest insurance you find because those places typically use call centers instead of agents, which means when something goes wrong you have no support and a bad situation can become horrible.

      1. +1 – the car dealer might not care where your license is from, but you will have to register the car in a particular state in order to get the plates, and typically plates are supposed to match the state on the driver’s license (right?)

  16. I was offered a job this week at a non-profit, working in a legal role in a field that I feel very passionately about. I am excited and flattered to have been offered the role, but I am also a bit apprehensive, as this would be a very big change for me (currently big law, so this would entail a greater than 50% pay cut, loss of day-to-day flexibility, less job security and prestige and starting back at the bottom of the totem pole). I love the people that I currently work with, and I feel like I have it good as big law goes. The new job would still have long hours, but without the corresponding compensation. However, I am feeling burnt out and am not excited about the potential career paths available in my current field (law firm partner/counsel, working in house at a bank, etc.). This move would bring me closer to a field that I have always wanted to get back into.

    I would love thoughts from anyone who has made this type of move, or considered something similar and decided against it. What questions would you ask? Would you negotiate salary? Any tips on getting a feel for a group/organization’s culture or for determining long-term opportunities in a new field?

    1. Definitely negotiate salary. Why is that part even a question? You’ll have to take a cut, but that doesn’t mean don’t negotiate (if they don’t have the money to pay you more, they’ll tell you). You could also talk to the hiring manager about your concerns and ask whether there may be other benefits (like working remotely 1 day per week or something). If you’re not excited about progression in Biglaw, it could be a nice change.

      1. Absolutely try to negotiate other benefits. There’s a good chance that they don’t have much flexibility on salary, but they should be able to make up for it in other ways. If I were doing it, I’d focus on leave and telecommuting. If daily flexibility is a big concern, figure out what you can ask for to make it happen. And congratulations!

    2. I would just like to say that working for as a non-profit lawyer is not necessarily less prestigious than working as a big law lawyer. As someone who’s done both, I can assure you that the non-profit job (which paid quite a bit less) was far more prestigious in terms of how competitive it was to get and how much of an impact my work had. That may not have been what you were saying, but I feel like a lot of readers here seem to equate “big salary” with “overachieving” or “prestige.” I don’t think they’re synonymous.

    3. In house at a not for profit here. I did NOT like my big law experience at all, so maybe my situation is too different to be useful, but I’m really loving working in house. Sometimes I look at my biglaw friends who stayed, and at their glorious apartments and Paris babymoons and I’m jealous, but I leave reliably at 5 pm every night, I have on-site daycare, and I’m helping the org. do good work. My favorite part, though, is that people have perspective that I felt was missing in litigation/biglaw: here, people know what is and isn’t an emergency. I don’t have to cater to people’s need to feel important the way I had to in biglaw, and no one expects something “now!” because they asked for it now. By the same token, when someone asks me for something immediately, I know it is legitimately important. I love that change.

      In terms of getting a feel for the culture, my employer works hard to communicate its values through concrete things it does for its employees: they pride themselves on being a place where people want to stay forever, and they communicate it through things like the on-site daycare I mentioned, a really healthy benefits program, and a very very low tolerance for assholishness.

  17. Does anyone have advice on comforting someone who just received bad news?

    After the last two years from hell (cheating spouse, divorce, lost job), my friend just found out she didn’t get her dream job after a 9-month interview process. I know she’s spiraling and thinking her life is in the toilet. How do I encourage and support her and tell her that everything really will be ok without sounding like a chirpy children’s story?

    She’s long distance, so I can’t take her out and distract her.

    1. Do you know any of her friends closer by? Could you come up with something from both of you, with the local gf helping with logistics?

      1. She’s alone in a new city. (Fresh start after the divorce and job loss.)

        She’s going to see her sister this weekend.

        It’s really what to SAY to her that I’m most concerned about.

    2. In this scenario, I would stay far away from telling her everything will be okay, at least at first. If I were your friend, I would want to hear you agree that everything sucks and that not getting the job is heart-breaking, frustrating, and disappointing (at the very least). Tell her that you are there to listen, talk about the Kardashians, whatever she needs. I can promise you she does not want to hear that it will be okay, she wants to hear that it’s okay to feel how she is feeling (whatever that may be) and that you support her.

      Is there comfort food or a favorite flower or something you can send to her, so she knows you are thinking of her? I LOVE flowers, even if I am sad, and that would make me feel better even if only temporarily.

    3. Don’t tell her everything will be okay. When you feel like you”re spiraling, it can be range inducing when someone says that…it makes it sound like you’re belittling her hurt or acting like it’s no big deal, while to her, it is a Big. Deal.

      Just be there to listen. Call and check in/email/whatever

      If there’s any pampering she would like, it would be great if you’d pick her up to treat her for a lunch, manicure, blowout, whatever. Or a few weeks of Blue Apron.

    4. Send a care package. Getting something in the mail is often a really nice experience. You can also book her something like a manipedi so she gets some time to herself. Other than that, I think being available, calling/texting her to check how she’s doing is great. She’ll know you’re thinking of her and there for her without you being able to physically be there.

  18. UGH I feel completely jerked around by this company that I interviewed with. Long /Short story,

    Interviewed in August of last year, they decided to go with someone else, but I was a close second.

    Contacted in January about a new position, called back in for an interview (this was the 7th phone, skpe, in person interaction with the company). Went extremely well. Followed up, was told they were still interviewing.

    Email this morning that they’ve put the position on hold but my experience, education were excellent, the team loved me and they want to keep in touch in case I’m still interested when the position is opened again. I’m just…..so disapointed….AGAIN….and to get this delivered via email, and not a phone call, even a quick one, just makes it even more so.

    I really like the company, I think it would be a great fit for both me and the team I’d be joining, but I’m questioning if I would be open to trying a third round of interviews if it comes up. I know things happen, and I’d rather not be offered a job and then have it pulled back or god for bid take it and then be laid off but I don’t have that much faith, that they’d actually follow through with an offer next time, or if they insist on interviewing me again.

    Does anyone have a similar experience to share? Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great opportunity, if it ever pans out.

    At this point, I’ve interviewed with the ENTIRE team I’d work with, the hiring manager for that team, their Director, the Director’s director, another departments Director, and the CEO or COO. So somewhere around 10+ people. And some/most of these people more than once.

    1. I know you don’t want to hear this, but I think the interviewing process can be a good barometer of what the company culture is going to be like as a whole. Think of the other side–10 folks had their time wasted, especially those who already had exposure to the candidate in the past. They aren’t letting you down because they went with someone else, but because they didn’t have their hiring strategy straight. As an outsider, that seems like a company where you are likely to experience a lot of death by meeting and difficulty getting decisions made/strategy set. I think you should be feeling like you likely dodged a bullet and not waste any more time with them in the future.

      1. No That is definitely something I’ve been considering. This is pretty much the most disorganized/confused/ hiring process I’ve EVER gone through and I have to take that into consideration as a sign of larger problems within the organization, not matter if I like it or not.

    2. I interviewed for three jobs with 26 people at my current company over a period of 8 months. It absolutely sucked and felt so incredibly disorganized at the time (and it was), but it was affected by the government shutdown and various other factors. I ended up getting the job in the end and it’s worked out great (and no one else seems to have had such a bad hiring process). I was desperate to leave my old job and didn’t get many other bites so I was willing to put up with anything to work at this well-known company in the field I wanted to get into.

    3. FWIW, there was a big discussion on AAM a few weeks ago about whether it was better to reject candidates that you otherwise liked over email vs phone – and a lot of the people were on the side of wanting to receive the rejection via email so that they had time to process it alone and then politely respond once they had calmed down, instead of receiving an upsetting phone call rejecting them in the middle of their workday and they had to respond verbally on the spot.

      So it’s possible they thought they were being kind by rejecting you by email rather than playing phone tag and getting you excited only to reject you again. But I agree that disorganized hiring often means that HR, if no one else, is a bureaucratic mess.

      1. Makes some sort of sense. Previously the HR manager called me to tell me I didn’t get the position the first time around. But this time I’ve been dealing pretty much exclusively with the hiring manager, so maybe it’s style differences.

        FWIW, I wrote a polite thank you, lets keep in touch email, to not close any doors. The husband of a co-worker works there, and I asked about the company, and he had good things to say, so maybe this is unusual. Either way, if I’m contacted again, I’ll have to really think about what I want to do.

    4. in a kind way, I think you’re making this too much about you….there are often circumstances beyond your control and it’s not really always a first priority to cater to someone who isn’t there yet. if it’s a job that you think you would like you should just keep the door open. Just keep an open mind and see how you feel when they come around!

  19. Curious: how much did your parents teach you about finances growing? Anything you’d change or have changed with your own kids? Any strategies for teaching them about money in an age appropriate way?

    1. My parents didn’t, which sucks. We did not talk about money. Period. Not even “you can’t do that because we can’t afford it,” which was definitely the case sometimes. When I was just starting out as an adult, I felt so behind– I didn’t know how to make a budget, I didn’t know what things cost, I didn’t know how to save money. I wish my parents had been more open about the process, even if they didn’t talk about numbers.

    2. My parents tried to teach me about mutual funds when I was 17 – they made me take out most of my babysitting money, took me to Charles Schwab and made me pick a mutual fund to put it in, except I didn’t understand how it worked and what fund to choose, and nobody would explain what the differences were to me. I was frustrated, just picked one, and then 9/11 happened. Then my dad for some reason decided to try to switch things up without discussing it with me, so the account never recovered. I think the intentions were good, but the explanation behind it was totally lacking. I think it’s important to educate your kids about what investment options are, how retirement funds work, etc. Make sure they understand it – what’s an index fund vs a mutual fund, what’s an expense ratio, what are bonds, how to tell what the difference is between multiple options, how to max out your 401k, open a roth ira, etc. A lot of that is probably for older teens/early 20’s, but with little kids, you maybe start with explaining what interest is so they are familiar with basic concepts when they are young. You could open a plain old savings account for them at a bank or do a college savings account. I think I had a book called “If You Made a Million” that I would read as a child while fantasizing about my theoretical life of living off bank interest as an millionaire adult.

    3. My parents were pretty much cash-and-carry, with credit card for emergencies. We were told to set aside funds for church first, savings & investing second, then for spending. They have always had some kind of financial advisor.
      When we 3 kids were young, Dad worked 2-3 jobs so that Mom could stay home. Mom watched other peoples’ kids with us after school. Once we were more self-sufficient, she went back to work as RN in a Dr office. We were sometimes told that things were too expensive; or that we have a budget and you need to make your *brand name here* clothing fit in that budget or get less stuff; we had 2nd hand clothing and recycled everything possible.
      My parents now own 2 homes and are able to travel between them as they choose (even tho they don’t believe it and still live frugally). I didn’t listen to their lessons at first and had a few fun years with my credit cards, but finally got that all paid off and I’m in decent shape now.
      Yes, Mom and Dad, I should have paid better attention!

    4. They taught me a lot. They emphasized (both by words and example) that savings were important, and that credit cards were only to be used for the rewards points and had to be paid off immediately, they were not a way of deferring payment on things. They set me up with a bank account and credit card when I was in high school. I had to pay the credit card out of the bank account, except for certain authorized purchases (like food) that they covered. It taught me a lot about finance, including both practical things (how to balance a checkbook, how to pay a credit card bill) and financial lessons like always paying bills immediately and not spending more than you have. They also lived a super frugal lifestyle (they earned six figures for most of my childhood but never left their small house worth ~$100K and never had fancy cars or clothes) so that set a good example, although I am less frugal than them (but I also earn more).

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