ByElizabeth Hours Updated
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Tuesday’s Workwear Report: Zip-Back Scuba Pant

A woman wearing black pants and a white top with black heels (torso cropped out)

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

We’ve featured Veronica Beard’s killer blazers several times, but don’t sleep on their pants! These zip-back pants look like the perfect in-between piece for settings where leggings aren’t quite appropriate, but slacks and heels aren’t necessary.

I would wear these with a white tee, a longer blazer, and loafers for a comfy business casual look.

The pants are $295 at Veronica Beard and come in sizes 00–24. They also come in navy. (They're also available at Nordstrom, but they're almost sold out.)

This post contains affiliate links and Corporette® may earn commissions for purchases made through links in this post. For more details see here. Thank you so much for your support!

Sales of note for 12.3.24 (lots of Cyber Monday deals extended, usually until 12/3 at midnight)

531 Comments

  1. Forget legal and politics, what are the practical implications of overturning Roe? Assume I’m privilaged enough in a very blue state to not have needed to pay close attention to date. Spell it out? Does it revert to the states to decide? Forbids public funding into organizations that provide abortions? Give me the 101, if you would. thanks.

    1. Yes my understanding is that it will be on a state by state basis. Most red states will outlaw all abortions with no exceptions.

    2. It reverts to the states. It will always be legal in solidly blue states. It will be illegal in about 20 red states immediately and others will likely follow soon. Red states are also trying to criminalize traveling out of state for an abortion but that’s hard to enforce.

      1. Unfortunately this is not entirely accurate. Even “blue” states in terms of presidential elections can have state legislatures that are much more Republican than the state as a whole. The only places that are likely entirely safe are the West Coast, Illinois, and New York (due to being virtually guaranteed to have Democratic governors who can veto).

          1. And Connecticut and Rhode Island and Hawaii and New Mexico.
            I also think it’s unlikely to gain serious traction in NH, VT, Maine, Maryland. Those states have Rs in control sometimes but it’s a very different breed of R than in the Bible belt.

          2. Minnesota, DC, Maryland, and (likely but not 100%) Virginia are also unlikely to outlaw abortion.

          3. New Mexico has not codified the right to an abortion, we just barely got rid of an abortion ban that had been on the books since the 1960s, pre-Roe, in the last legislative session. Had our legislature not done that, when Roe is overturned abortion would have automatically become illegal in NM. But there are sure to be legal challenges and who knows how that could end up. That being said, right now our legislature and our governor are strongly Democratic and that’s not likely to change in the upcoming election. I am hopeful we’ll get laws passed in the next legislative session to protect abortion. It’ll remain legal in NM for now.

          4. Virginia? I’m sorry but that’s delusional. Dems have the barest majority in the VA Senate, Republicans control the VA house, and they have a Republican governor. The Senate could easily flip in 2023 and goodbye abortion within VA’s borders. I hope all the women who voted for Youngkin because they were tired of schools being closed are happy.
            Youngkin: “As the next Governor of Virginia, I will proudly stand up for the unborn and their mothers… I believe life begins at conception. My views are formed not only by my faith, but by science as well.”

          5. Virginia will rush to outlaw abortion. There was a fetal personhood amendment introduced in the legislature about a decade ago, and the state has gotten much more conservative since then.

          6. I don’t see how the Republican Party doesn’t lose NoVa, and then the state if they outlaw abortion. I know people who voted for Youngkin because they thought he was a traditional conservative, but who are pro choice.

          7. @11:05. Plenty of selfish wealthy people are pro-choice yet vote Republican. It is shameful.

          8. Yes, and adding that my trans kid is screwed in 2023 in Virginia if the Senate flips, so we are looking into DC schools right now.

        3. Repealing Roe is actually pretty unpopular. Any R legislatures in purple states that outlaw abortion will likely find themselves out of a job, so I don’t think restrictions will be as widespread as you think. At the end of the day, politicians do what their constituents want and except in deep red states this isn’t popular.

          1. But that’s only for purple states. What about solidly red? Those women are all in very difficult, dangerous positions.

          2. Not disagreeing with that at all. I’m responding to someone who said only CA, Illinois and NY will still have legal abortion post-Roe repeal.

          3. Ummm..it looks like Florida is doing this and the governor is not unlikely to become the Republican nominee. If anyone but progressive Democrats gave a darn about reproductive rights we won’t be here. To it put another way, plenty of people will pull a lever for an anti-choice political regardless of their personal views. People may care in the abstract but they don’t vote like it. That’s how we got here.

          4. At 9:23, they care but definitely not more than they care about their bank account.

          5. I really don’t think that’s true. Even in “purple” states, gerrymandered, rural-biased legislatures can do whatever they want and the people in the big cities can’t do anything about it.

          6. Florida is a sh*tshow right now and unless Charlie Crist gets some sort of miracle, deSantis will win in a walk. Crist is a solid candidate and is putting in the work, but he suffers from many of the same things that Hillary did – a long time in politics, and some folks who will sit it out rather than vote for him because of him changing parties or whatever. Nikki Fried is a disaster of a candidate needs to drop out ASAP.
            Right now there is no point in even HAVING a legislature in Florida, since they just do exactly what deSantis tells them to do.

          7. Really? My purple state is gerrymandered to the point that my blue city has vanished from the map, split up between multiple enormous red rural districts. I’m not even sure we’ll be a purple state anymore if the gerrymandering isn’t combatted, even though Republicans are outnumbered here.

          8. 9:45 Anon – are you in Tallahassee, too? I really want to see Al Lawson kick some ass and win despite the blatant attempt to gerrymander his district. I think he may have a shot.

          9. Anon @10:04, not in Tallahassee! Unfortunately there are way too many cities in this predicament right now. Good luck; I hope Al Lawson really does have a shot.

            I honestly think Republicans know what they’re doing and that Trump is going to be president again in no time.

          10. Don’t forget that those R legislatures also control access to voting and counting of votes.

          12. I’m actually excited about the city and county elections – there’s a real shot at getting a majority who aren’t Old Tallahassee/Chamber of Commerce ringers. I’m not feeling as optimistic about the state, but am looking forward to being able to vote for Al Lawson rather than against Neal Dunn.

      2. Unless Republicans gain control of the house, senate, and White House at some point in the future. In that case, a federal ban is on the table, and no one is safe. That seems totally far-fetched from where we sit now, but so did the SC overturning Roe.

          1. I actually thought so before this, but I think this is going to be a galvanizing moment for Democrats. The day we had long been warned about is finally here; it’s not abstract any more. I know a lot of people who thought and said “Roe v Wade could never be overturned” and those people are experiencing moments of reckoning today. I think this coupled with some student loan forgiveness could go a long way toward helping the Dems at least hold the House and Senate in 2022. And have you seen pictures of Trump lately? He doesn’t look so good. I’d be surprised if he’s physically capable of becoming the president in 2 more years.

          3. re Trump – I think either he’s holding the spot so no one else runs and he can run Ivanka/Don, or Ivanka/Don will be his VP.

          4. Trump is completely fine. He will run in 2024 and be a formidable candidate. There are candid photos of me in which I look half-dead. It’s meaningless.

        2. And they won’t stop there. Next up: Criminalizing gay sex, contraception, and interracial marriage.

    3. Public funding for abortion providers was already prohibited by the Hyde Amendment. Overturning Roe means there’s no constitutional right to an abortion so states can choose to make all abortions (even in cases of miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy) illegal, and many will.

    4. Practical implications are that women will die. Whether through back alley abortions, ectopic pregnancy, suicide or child birth. 5 years ago My sister almost died of a uterine rupture while at a university hospital where she was an administrator. It was eye opening. I’ve been actively supporting pro choice causes ever since. No woman should be expected to put her life on the line unless she has chosen to do so. Flying multiple states away to access abortion is simply not an option for most women.

      1. Oof, what news to wake up to.
        I work in Northern Ireland where abortion access is similarly contentious (my introduction to NI social life was meeting pals at a pro-choice rally while anti-choice activists screamed at us) and it’s a major issue. Historically, people have flown to England or Scotland, but that requires money, identification, childcare, other people knowing which might be a safety risk. Those without citizenship or residency might face even higher barriers.

        1. The distinction here (in the US) is that Texas is trying to make it a crime to do the equivalent of flying to England or Scotland for a medical procedure. So it’s not a question of money, since you can still face arrest upon return to your home.

          2. There’s a near zero chance that can be enforced. “I went on a spontaneous vacation and while there I required emergency medical services the details of which are HIPAA protected.”

          3. Oh awesome! I know most people are totally fine committing felonies, as long as they can lie under oath and beat the charge!

          4. What Anon at 10:07 wrote isn’t perjury though. It’s impossible to prove if you refuse to disclose what happened on your ‘vacation.’ You can also leave the country and then the US wouldn’t even have jurisdiction to enforce it.

          5. They’ll just use reverse onus. If you left the country/state while pregnant and return not pregnant, onus will be on you to prove you did not have an abortion.

          6. I’m sorry what? Whether or not a person who’s not in one of these states thinks such a travel ban would be enforced, it is HORRIFIC that the laws might even be written down and voted on in the year of our goddess 2022. Anyone who wants to invalidate our fears by saying the laws won’t be enforced can take several seats.

          7. I am horrified that ACOG and the AMA – which are both solidly pro-choice – are not out there in the public sphere more yelling about this.

        2. Curious: do people go to the republic now that abortion was decriminalized there?

          1. I think it’s really expensive in the south and maybe limited providers as it is so recent? You’d still be eligible for NHS services in GB.

      2. It’ll make for some horrifying scenarios if you travel to these places and have a medical emergency while you’re pregnant

    5. I agree with many that many red states will outlaw abortion. Middle-class and upper middle-class women will travel to a blue state to get an abortion. Poor and lower middle class women and teenagers will get black market abortions, kill themselves, die in childbirth, or be forced to have a child they don’t want.

      What I’m wondering is whether this will led to more children put up for adoption, since their mothers were forced to carry them, or more children living in poverty? Sadly, I think it will be the later. And the states that are most likely to outlaw abortion are the least likely to provide resources to those mothers and kids.

      1. “What I’m wondering is whether this will led to more children put up for adoption, since their mothers were forced to carry them”

        This is what evangelical Christians want and think will happen, but it won’t happen.

        Bottom line, they didn’t have medical abortion the last time abortion was illegal in the U.S. Smuggling pills to people is a lot easier than arranging back-alley surgical/medical procedures; people have been smuggling drugs for decades. An underground network dealing abortion medications will pop up (and will likely provide a welcome replacement for the income some of the cartels lost to legalization of marijuana. I am not even kidding; I heard this straight from the mouth of a DEA agent. The cartels already have the pill manufacturing facilities, the transportation networks, the inroads into rural America etc. It’s going to be no different than trafficking and dealing fake Fentanyl, meth or heroin and likely the same people will be doing it).

        For anyone who has not been paying attention or doesn’t watch TV, we have made no meaningful progress on stopping cross-border trafficking of narcotics or opioids since Nixon declared the “War on Drugs” in the 1970s. So the idea that forced-birth proponents would be able to stop the illegal distribution of abortion drugs is laughable. Now – it’s not all sunshine and roses; there will be people prosecuted for selling or taking the drugs; some women will wait too long to get the medications and they won’t work and women will get hurt trying to use them; there will be fake drugs distributed with bad ingredients that hurt people, etc. But abortion has always existed and will always exist; there is no stopping it. For millennia, women used to do this themselves, with herbal medications, under the radar and we’ll have to go back to that for awhile. I don’t know that widespread availability of surgical abortion will ever return, but we have medications that get the job done, and trafficking medications people want is one of the easiest things in the world. There will be money to be made from it and many governments – including ones that are nominally anti-abortion – will look the other way to enable the making of that money.

        I strongly recommend, though, that ‘Rettes with teenage girls look into getting your kids Skyla, Mirena or Norplant and that you have a plan for what to do if you need to travel with your daughter.

        1. I recently heard someone say “The war on drugs is over, and drugs won.” So yea, agree on that.

        2. I’m definitely trying to encourage my teenager to do that for her own safety.

          1. This is truly horrifying. Put a teenager on hormonal BC on the off chance that she gets assaulted? The way doctors push hormonal BC on women while completely dismissing the terrible side effects–depression, cognitive issues, migraines, weight gain, etc.–is part of the same male conspiracy to retain power that is about to result in the overturning of Roe and Casey.

          2. Hormonal birth control doesn’t have terrible side effects for everyone. I had bad side effects from it and stopped, but for many women it provides immense relief from migraines and menstrual pain (both of which can have pretty big impacts on work, school and mental health). How about lets make women – including teenage girls – make decisions about their own bodies and trust them that if they feel the side effects outweigh the benefits they’ll talk to their doctor or parent about stopping it. Mm k?

        3. This is an interesting perspective, and may be the case for early stage unwanted pregnancies, but I wasn’t aware this type of pill-induced abortion is possible for later term abortions after medical/anatomy issues have been uncovered. And those are some of the most heart wrenching cases – this will make that process even harder.

      2. The answer to both questions is yes. I do believe there will be more children for adoption, but there will also be more living in poverty. And more in an already over burdened foster care system.

      3. There was an Atlantic article recently that basically said, nope, when you’re forced to carry a child you mostly choose to keep the baby, even if it places immeasurable stress on your household.

    6. I’ve been seeing a lot of news coverage about the potential that republicans push for a nationwide ban, which seems questionable from a constitutional perspective – but again, the supreme court is the one to decide that ultimately and given the makeup of the Court I think there is reason to be concerned. Granted Republicans would need to control Congress and the presidency but that doesn’t seem that far out of reach.

      My red state recently considered a bill that would have criminalized all abortions from conception. It didn’t go all the way but all signs point to a similar bill getting introduced and probably passed, which will be devastating for fertility treatment among other things.

      The bottom line it’s going to be a constant political battle. I’m not someone who ever has been particularly invested in this issue as I was really just naive about how far it would go. But I’m trying not to panic.

      1. Why would it be questionable from a constitutional perspective? Congress can ban whatever it wants, as long as there’s no constitutional right prohibiting such a ban, which the SCOTUS just told us there isn’t, WRT abortion. How do you think we have federal drug laws?

        2. That isn’t true at all. They need a basis for their authority to regulate an activity. Drug laws are justified by using the Commerce Clause, but that doesn’t work well for a medical procedure. That doesn’t mean they won’t do it, though. I’m very concerned about this after the 2024 elections.

          1. Why doesn’t it work well for a medical procedure? It seems at the very least, Congress could ban traveling amongst the states to obtain an abortion.

          2. The application of the Commerce Clause to abortion bans is a pretty complex topic, but if you’re interested there are some good articles that explain why there are questions about Congress’ authority to actually do this. In theory at least, Congress doesn’t have the power to just ban any activity it wants. It’s supposed to be constitutionally limited.

            From a practical perspective, though, the Supreme Court is the only check on Congress’s exercise of its authority – so whether the conservative justices would actually put their federalism principles into action is another question.

            Bottom line – I am very concerned about a nationwide abortion ban.

      2. Yeah – I think all the folks who don’t think they’ll be impacted because they’re in a blue state are being naive.

      3. I’m always a pessimist on this sort of thing, and I think a nationwide ban is quite possible. As long as I can get myself and my kid to a foreign country (like Ireland, Mexico, or Canada), we’ll be fine, but this sucks for everyone outside of my social class.

          1. Well, they decriminalized abortion, though I suspect it’s easier to get one arranged in The Netherlands. Unless uteruses are classified as guns, it’s just going to get more restrictive in the US.

        2. Just a word about Mexico – it’s technically legal at the federal level now but Mexico has states, just like the U.S., and in most states it remains illegal and in some places it is prosecuted. That being said, women in border states (Texas, NM, Arizona) have been traveling to Mexico for decades to get abortions, even before Roe v. Wade – my mom knew several women in high school who were taken to Juarez or Chihuahua for a “vacation” or “to visit relatives” when they got pregnant, back in the late 1960s. But as of now, the Mexican states that border the U.S. – including Baja California, Sonora, Chihuahua and Coahuila – do not permit legal abortion, either for residents or non-residents. If someone were to cross the border to get abortion care they would be doing something illegal according to the laws of those Mexican states.

    7. Roe is the start. A brutal, terrible start where choice is limited to your state. But they’re going after gay marriage, gay *gardening,* birth control and trans medical care. The mid-game is a married woman who isn’t allowed to get a birth control prescription without her husband’s permission at minimum.

      1. We are living in Handmaid Tale times. I’m scared for my kids. One is LGBTQ+, and one is female.

  2. So…anybody else frantically scheduling a bi-salp? I’m due for a new Mirena, but clearly that’s no longer good enough.

    1. Is there breaking news on IUD’s that I’m unaware of? Article link maybe?

          1. Because (1) IUDs can cause ectopic pregnancies and it’s not at all clear treatment for those will remain legal after Roe is overturned, (2) sometimes IUDs fail, and (3) it’s not at all clear IUDs will remain legal in red states after Roe (this includes my state, so please don’t say it will never happen).

          2. Both IUDs and sterilization are over 99% effective. An IUD is a perfectly safe choice as birth control.

          3. Cool cool thanks Anon. Not sure how that addresses concern 1 or 3, but your opinion regarding IUD safety has been noted. You see how such a response invalidates very real concerns that women in deep red states have right now, right?

          4. My doctor told me that Mirena is more effective than sterilisation… but of course it’s not permanent which sterilisation is. I really feel for you all in the US and will be aligning my charitable donations with causes that help

          5. I hear you, Ribena. I think what people are ignoring in this equation is that IUDs will probably no longer be legal in many states after Roe falls. So even if I get mine replaced today, in 7 years, I’ll have to come up with another solution (and will it be legal to surgically sterilize women of childbearing age at that time? Probably, but who knows!)

    2. No. And if you can afford to do this, you’ll still be able to get a safe legal effective abortion.

      1. Not necessarily legal if you live in a red state that criminalizes going out of state. But in practice you won’t go to jail.

        1. Right, it’s a great option for those who don’t mind engaging in criminal activity and just relying on non-enforcement to keep themselves out of prison. /s/

    3. No because I am a rich white woman and will always be able to get a safe and legal abortion somewhere. Instead, I am funneling my money into groups that are helping women who do not have access to the same resources I do.

        1. Silly question – wouldn’t that be a lot more expensive? Unless you have amazing insurance I guess.

          2. Sorry, I meant sterilization not childbirth. It is not exactly inexpensive, especially with my HDHP.

          3. That is a silly question, you’re right. It’s also hurtful to people who are experiencing very real and valid fear right now.

            It seems easy to understand why non-rich people of color would want to make absolutely sure they prevent pregnancy in places where ANY abortion will be criminalized (as will travel to get an abortion).

  3. Reverts to states to decide. Many have laws on the books today that will automatically ban abortion if Roe gets overturned. Federal funding is still decided at the Federal level; state funding still decided at the State level.

    Real implications: slightly fewer abortions, big increase in unsafe abortions. More stress on people in poverty already struggling to find affordable housing and childcare. I wish the anti-abortion crowd would attend to those issues with as much fervor … societal support for working parents would have a greater long-term impact on the reduction of abortion rates than a total ban.

    1. I haven’t actually thought about this part – where does the anti-abortion crowd pour all their political energy and momentum once they achieve this goal?

      1. They will continue decreasing access to reproductive care, including birth control. Also criminalizing pregnancy, creating “rights” for fetuses, and targeting attempts to travel or seek care elsewhere.

        1. Slope is right. Then once they’re done shitting on tr*ns kids and tr*ns adults, they’ll go for Obergefell.
          One of my idiot state senators said that Loving was decided incorrectly. That’s not out of the question either.

          1. Agreed. Look at the draft opinion — they are already pointing right at these and discussing them as “made up” rights.

        2. The personhood rights for fetuses angle is chilling. On a personal level, I’m a high-earning white female in a blue state, so my access to abortion isn’t in jeopardy. But i also have embryos frozen following PGD testing (in another blue state, thank goodness), and Amy Coney Barrett would just love to criminalize the sh*t out of the steps that I’ve already taken and many that I could possibly take in the future.

          1. To be fair I’m really interested in this question. I can’t wrap my head around the idea that anyone sincerely believes a fetus is a person except in the context of forcing a woman to carry and bear a child against her will. Certainly they’d also believe a frozen embryo is a person, but I suspect they are highly disinterested if they can’t get pregnancy and childbirth on anyone.

          2. Same exact position except both and I my frozen PGD embryos are in a red state that is already working toward personhood rights.

          3. “so my access to abortion isn’t in jeopardy.” I mean, sorry, but it is. If abortion isn’t a constitutional right, a federal abortion ban is possible.

        3. Miscarriages will be criminalized. It will also be impossible to get care for a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy, which will cost many women their lives. Everyone should look up what happened to Savita Halappanavar in Ireland.

        4. Yes. The next frontier is birth control, and they’ll also go after gay rights and interracial marriage rights. Then Civil Rights Act, then voting rights for women and minorities. The goal of conservative Christian white men is to return the country to a time when conservative Christian white men reigned supreme. They won’t stop until they accomplish that goal, or die trying. This is not just about abortion for these people. They want to return the country to what it was circa 1800. If you don’t want that, now is the time to get politically active, or at least learn to hold your nose and vote for Democratic candidates who may not be perfect or exhibit the exact level of leftiness you’d ideally like them to have.

      2. Whatever will get us closer to the Handmaids Tale which is why I could never watch it.

        1. I feel like y’all should try friending more pro-lifers. We aren’t all Hitler, for gods sake. I understand your side of the argument. But it seems that y’all are just willfully blind to my side of the argument, which is that a fetus feels pain and feels the abortion and has a brain and fingernails and at the end is undoubtedly a fully formed, viable human, so where do you draw the line? And I want to hand out birth control like candy and take care of these babies. I’m not trying to change your own position, because I know that is possible, but goodness it gets old being told that I hate women, also want to roll back other rights, like Loving v. Virginia?? My god.

          2. I’m not saying you, personally, want to roll back Loving. I’m saying that my actual state senator said with his actual mouth that it was decided incorrectly.

            You might say that you love birth control and gay folks and women but the people you vote into office absolutely do not.

          3. I agree. I am really on the fence with abortion. I am an educated woman in the northeast and I don’t hate women, but I do have big concerns about abortion. Not supporting abortion doesn’t mean you hate women and think we should all be slaves.

          5. We’re not obligated to underestimate people who want to force us to use our bodies to keep other people alive. You say “I’m not trying to change your position” but your position has the government forcing people bear and carry children against their will. We’re under no obligation to underestimate how for a person like you will go in controlling our bodies and our lives. If it sounds like we think you’re a monster reread this.

          6. It’s not that simple, actually. I think it is wrong to take a life, so I can’t just say, okay then I won’t murder anyone.

          7. Don’t want to be told you hate women? Don’t advocate for policies that are hateful to women! Whew, that was easy.

          8. You don’t like abortions? Don’t get one. Stay out of my business. I’m not friends with pro-lifers because they are fundamentally bad people.

          9. what about those who are victims of rape or incest? being forced to carry a child conceived that way seems like cruel and unusual punishment. or what if a mom is told that the baby won’t live for more than a week outside of the womb or that they are pregnant with twins, but unless you abort one, they will both die. there is a big difference between a 39 week fetus and like a 20 week fetus

          10. The line is that it is a decision between a woman and her doctor. There are an infinite number of situations and it is impossible to legislate for them all. At a certain point you either trust women or you don’t.

            There is a lot of grey in later abortions. Was I wrong to terminate one twin who has an infinitesimally small chance of survival so that his twin and I would survive the pregnancy? Does it matter that I have two older kids that I needed to live for? How would you write the law for that? Or maybe you could just trust that I made a deeply horrific decision that I have to live with for the rest of my life when there was no good decision to be made. No one is out there getting 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions for fun.

            So F you and your whining. I rarely post my story here because I am tired of engaging on these threads. Some people have so little grace for what other people have had to walk through in their lives.

          11. I mean, I personally have a lot of moral qualms about abortion. Which is why I have taken all the steps not to have one. That means plentiful access to affordable birth control, which is something pro-lifers tend to oppose too, which makes absolutely no sense. I sure as hell was not going to abstain until I was ready to have a kid, and I don’t think that’s sensible policy. I’m also from a country where abortion is legal until a certain time limit (and legal after that for medical/rape/incest reasons only), which seems like a sensible enough approach to me – I think there is a big conceptual difference between terminating before 12 weeks and terminating at 35 weeks. But ultimately, any pro-life politician I’ve seen sounds like an angry wack job who also wants to limit birth control, gay marriage, trans rights, and apparently now interracial marriage? So, I am staunchly in favor of reproductive rights, donate to Planned Parenthood, and vote accordingly. If pro-lifers want reasonable people on board, they need people with reasonable platforms representing them.

          12. Fetuses cannot feel pain until the third trimester and abortion in the third trimester is not legal in the US even after Roe (and abortion after 20 weeks is extraordinarily rare and usually only happens when a wanted baby has a fatal condition and would suffer if they were born alive). Sorry I don’t have any sympathy for your position when it’s based on unscientific BS.

          13. I feel like if you want to take that position, you’re just going to have to come to terms with the fact that you believe it’s ok to have policies that harm women. You don’t get to have a position that hurts women and then still get to distance yourself from the implications of that. You might not *hate* women, but you sure don’t give a crap about them. And certainly you understand that there are a multitude of reasons that a woman might need an abortion that have nothing to do with lack/failure of birth control.

          14. A fetus is not fully formed nor viable until quite far along in pregnancy. Your grasp of science is…tenuous. And that is a charitable adjective to describe it.

          15. So I used to be like you, and then I had a paradigm shift when I realized I did not need to be comfortable with any other person’s reasons for needing an “abortion” or when they need it. The only people who need to do that are the person and their doctor. Perhaps there are lots of abortions that I morally object to, but in my view there are far better ways to prevent those than regulating or criminalizing them. If this was really about preserving life why don’t we have paid family leave, day care subsidies, universal health care common sense gun control etc.? Why is this same group constantly working to defund safety nets, schools, public housing. My brain just couldn’t square it all and then I realized it is not about preserving life, it’s about getting your vote, and they got it.

          16. I’m sorry you hate yourself and other women so much. I’m sorry for you in general. But please know that there are people like me who are both liberal and armed, and we’ll do a lot and go a pretty long way before we allow you and your ilk to take over the country. See you at the barricades, if you have the courage to show up there.

          17. Each person has a fundamental right to control over their own body. That means they have the fundamental right to decline to allow their body to be used as life support to sustain another person, even if the result is that the other person will die painfully (I’m accepting your comment about pain for argument’s sake only). You don’t have to like it or agree with it. But it is not possible to respect the personhood of women and at the same time insist they must selflessly sacrifice their own bodies in support of another.

            There’s also medical necessity. When you make a “life of the mother” exception, you’re not talking about ANY risk of death. All pregnancy carries some risk of death. You’re talking about a sufficiently probable risk of death. At what point is my death certain enough that my doctor and I get to make the decision to give me lifesaving care? That my doctor feels she won’t lose her livelihood or even her freedom for saving my life? How long do I have to sit in a hospital bed with a rotting half miscarried fetus inside me, or an ectopic pregnancy that is slowly ripping apart my insides, or any number of horrific things that can happen to a woman during pregnancy, before my doctor can remove it without fearing for her own livelihood or even freedom?

          18. That’s why I said “at the end” is viable. So my grasp of science is pretty secure.

            It’s really special when people misread what I wrote (perhaps intentionally?) to call me dumb. Like really special.

          19. Your beliefs require me being disallowed control over my own body. Why on earth would I want to be friends with someone who doesn’t see me as a person?

          20. @anon2 @ 10:28 good thing abortions “at the end” have always been illegal then, huh? For someone so invested in anti-choice “rights” you don’t seem to understand what the existing laws actually are.

          21. I don’t think you hate women but I do wonder how much you have been following what’s going on in red states and the whole “personhood” concept. I used to be against on the fence on this issue because I thought we were talking about 20 week bans. We aren’t talking about that anymore. The laws being introduced are truly truly scary.

          22. If you comprehend that a fetus isn’t fully formed or viable until the “end”, then why the question “so where do you draw the line”? It seems like even by your own reasoning there’s a real clear place to draw the line that isn’t “never” — and that would be before viability. (I don’t agree with this and believe it should be available until live birth, but for you to act like “oh, a fetus is viable at the end, so where could you ever possibly draw the line?” is actually pretty ridiculous.) This is what I don’t get about pro-lifers — why don’t you just own your choice and acknowledge that this hurts women but you simply don’t care?

          23. The laws being introduced ban abortion after SIX WEEKS. How is that “the end” of pregnancy!? Many women don’t even know they’re pregnant at six weeks. The laws happening now are so far from banning late term abortion or partial birth abortion. Some of them even make it illegal to perform abortions in cases of miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, where the fetus clearly has 0% chance of becoming a living person. How can you support that if it’s just about the life of the fetus??

          24. This is really your argument? You don’t have a better one? Fetuses don’t feel pain when the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed. Who gives a flying f*** whether it has fingernails? Women have the right to bodily integrity. Full stop. Nah, sorry, you don’t get to ask us to be NICE to you and refrain from criticizing for the horrible thing you support doing to us.

          25. If you are willing to co-opt a woman’s body to force her to support an embryo (that may or may not make it to viability regardless of any outside interference), it is a short step to being willing to force someone to donate blood, tissue, organs to support a living, breathing human being. A major tenet of clinical ethics is that people with capacity have autonomy with respect to their own bodies and that we do not force people to use their body to benefit another person. We do not force a mother to donate bone marrow or a kidney to her birthed child, so why do we force her to incubate an embryo?

          26. They don’t have fingernails at six weeks either…your science is really bad. Also fingernails aren’t exactly the defining characteristic of personhood? Many animals have toenails. Human lives are universally seen more important than animal lives. So, no, I don’t think whether a fetus has fingernails is very relevant to whether or not abortion should be legal.

          27. I have a rare genetic blood disorder which has caused me to have 3 minor strokes and a seizure disorder which means I can’t use birth control because of the hormones. I can’t use the copper IUD because I am on blood thinners because of the same rare genetic blood disorder. I use condoms and “natural family planning” and , if necessary, an abortion to save my life. But I guess I’ll die because of your beliefs.

          28. But, DallasAnon, as long as you die knowing that anon2 is a nice person who doesn’t hate women. That’s what really matters.

          29. Pro-choice isn’t the same thing as pro-abortion. Personally I doubt I would be able to have one, certainly not now that I’m a married 30-something mother who has the financial and practical resources to raise another child. But I’m pro-choice because I don’t think it’s my right to impose my beliefs on other women.

          30. If it is taking a life, then what is the appropriate criminal charge for a woman who has an abortion? And how do you plan to deal with the fact that a quarter of American women would be guilty and the stress that would place on the justice system?

            I also want to know if you believe that the banked embryos I have from IVF have a right to live. Because they’re no different from any other embryo. Am I obligated to gestate all of them?

          31. Lol. My fetus didn’t have a brain, and if they’d (and I) made it to birth, would’ve maybe survived a couple hours, tops.

          32. I definitely think it’s a slippery slope from abortion being outlawed to IVF being outlawed or made so logistically complicated (like you can only create embryos you plan to immediately implant) that in practice it won’t be done.

          33. Did the good Germans who didn’t belong to the Nazi Party but who liked what The Little Corporal said about economics vote for him? Yes. They were culpable in his rise to power and his attempt to exterminate entire races and ethnic groups.

            When you vote for pro-life politicians, you are culpable in the subjugation of women. You can claim that you value life, but your actions prove otherwise.

      3. Some other power move. Sex Ed/”controversial” material in schools or some other Moms for Liberty garbage. Maybe going after contraception or gay marriage. Certainly nothing that actually helps society.

        1. Florida is also sending up test balloons via it’s nutball surgeon general re: gender affirming therapies for trans people (of course no one is even thinking about the “Low-T” industry… gender affirming therapy for cis-men). Pretty sure that’ll be the next area of medicine to come under fire as these awful human beings make vulnerable peoples’ lives more difficult just because they can.

        1. On the other hand, watching Clarence Thomas watch his colleagues rule his marriage invalid could be pretty fun!

      5. They chip away at what remains until all abortions are illegal no matter the stage of pregnancy, no matter the method, no matter the reason for the pregnancy. Then, they will move on to birth control as just another form of abortion.

      6. Banning it in states where it is still legal. Targeting a federal ban. They will not let up one iota as a result of this decision.

        1. What they want is a Supreme Court decision or a constitutional amendment declaring a fertilized egg a person.

          1. This. This is their express goal.

            Terrifyingly the Venn diagram for states that will ban abortion and where r@pists can still access custody rights is basically a circle

      8. Birth Control. There is a segment that views birth control as abortion light. Barrier methods may stay legal but they will go after plan B and hormonal birth control.

        1. Would they really be able to ban BC? Tons of people take BC pills for reasons other than to prevent pregnancy, like how Viagra is also a heart medication. Would they ban Viagra too? (obviously not, that benefits men).

          1. Yes. Please educate yourself on this point. The idea that “nothing that bad will happen” is what got us here.

    2. ” I wish the anti-abortion crowd would attend to those issues with as much fervor … ”

      There was a quote in the NYT piece this morning from a “pro-life” person … something about “now we can create a culture where we can support parents and children,” and I nearly punched my screen. NOW you can do that? No, you could have been doing it THE WHOLE TIME.

      1. Wow! Like now that there will be more unwanted children there will be more resources for them?! Doubtful.

      2. Yeah, that’s exactly it. I am politically pro-choice and have never (hard to say I WOULD never) consider an abortion for myself unless it was to preserve my life. But I have met exactly one pro-life person who also was genuinely advocating to make things easier for families and single parents and rpe victims, and she was a retired Catholic nun. If you don’t want abortions, make them unneeded and unattractive.

        1. I feel the opposite of that, FYI. The conservatives I know give so much to charity to help kids and mothers. Last I read, conservatives are more generous than liberals to charity, even excluding college donations.

          1. I don’t know the source on that, but I suspect that it counted tithing (donating to one’s own church) as a charity donation, and would like to know how much of this charity giving was to churches. Then I’d want to know whether these churches were helping kids and mothers, and how so.

          2. Maybe, if you count giving to megachurches that also double as social clubs and have better facilities for their members than a lot of schools/gyms/clubs but don’t do diddly squat to actually help people who need help. Color me skeptical on giving money to actually help people.

          3. this. Especially on this day, praising how much money conservatives give to churches, when the religious right has funded this whole crusade for half a century, is just hypocrisy.

          4. Right, they give to charity rather than supporting actual policies that will help kids and mothers because then they can ensure that only the “right” kids and mothers are getting help. Not, you know, those “other” types.

          6. “Maybe, if you count giving to megachurches that also double as social clubs and have better facilities for their members than a lot of schools/gyms/clubs but don’t do diddly squat to actually help people who need help. Color me skeptical on giving money to actually help people.”

            Not to mention the megachurches whose pastors are multimillionaires with multiple mansions, private jet fleets, etc. The Righteous Gemstones is a documentary, folks.

          8. Red state resident where megachurches are very popular, can confirm that what Monday said is accurate.

          9. Most of that conservative giving is to churches. Churches should not be considered charities, especially in 2022. And while some religious organizations help mothers and children, they sure as hel! don’t help women, other than perhaps helping them to become mothers. Theistic religions are disempowering and dangerous to women. All of them.

          10. Maybe I missed this, but I live in a very red state, and I can’t name one single charitable program that conservatives here support en mass that actually helps low income mothers and children who are not part of their faith. There’s support for adoption programs, but it’s also weird how the members of these churches don’t seem to be adopting or otherwise supporting all the children who could be adopted here (and there are more than enough members to do so!)

          11. I highly doubt that an institution widely known for committing or covering up child r*pe is doing anything to help children in any way.

          12. Or how many of them go to great lengths to buy a white baby from abroad rather than adopting a black child to raise as their own. There’s nothing pro-life about it.

          13. I’ve heard that stat too, but I wonder what it’s based on. If it’s self-reported, that’s dubious data. And even if it’s based on tax returns … I know this year I couldn’t find receipts for all my donations, but when I saw that it wouldn’t put me over the standard deduction, I gave up. If you looked at my tax return you’d think we donate very little.

            Regardless of charitable giving, I want a social safety net to be there no matter what — not dependent on someone having extra money or feeling generous.

  4. My children have given me some of the greatest joys of my life. They are also so much relentless, thankless work that have changed my body and my career and I would never impose this choice on anyone who didn’t absolutely want it. I hope Alito, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, Barrett and Thomas are yelled at and spit at for their rest of their sorry lives. They have basically admitted that women are second class citizens who don’t matter. What do we even do now to stop this?

    1. It may sound weird, but pregnancy made me even more pro-choice. I had a relatively easy one, all things considered, but I still can’t imagine going through it for a child who wasn’t extremely wanted.

      1. This is not weird! Pregnancy, so I’ve heard, takes a huge toll on you physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, and even can limit you professionally. Damn, I am so enraged but also exhausted after the last few years.

      2. There’s so little choice about pregnancy to begin with. People who desperately want to be pregnant sometimes can’t be, and people who take all steps to avoid pregnancy can still end up that way. Taking away the only real choice people have in the process is just so unbelievably cruel. I personally know several women who have found out they were carrying a non-viable fetus well into their very wanted pregnancies – the thought that they would be forced to continue carrying that pregnancy to term … having to deal with all of the stranger’s smiles and well-intended questions, all of the physical changes, for months after knowing the fetus had not chance at life … I can’t even imagine. But I guess I should start.

      3. Becoming a mother has “radicalized” me more than anything else. I was naive and privileged before but now I see plainly how much mothers and women are discriminated against and treated as less than, despite the extremely hard work of pregnancy, child rearing, house work (all of which is unpaid, of course). To have men who will literally never experience this decide this is infuriating.

        1. And a woman – going against your own when you know full well what a pregnancy is all about. That’s reprehensible.

          1. There is a special place in hell for women like her… Albright and Ginsberg must be rolling in their graves.

          2. So all women have to feel the same? Interesting.

            What about O’Connor, the much forgotten first female SC justice? I assume she is not rolling over in her grave.

          4. Anon 9:25 – Yes, I bet O’Connor is. If I remember Casey correctly, she voted to keep Roe the law of the land. And said there would be repercussions if it was overturned.

          5. Anon 9:25, we should have each others backs on this. If you don’t want to terminate you pregnancy, ok, I’ll do anything I can and advocate for policies to make sure you can safely carry to term, deliver, and raise that child while thriving yourself. If you don’t want to, I’ve got your back there, too.

          6. Sandra Day O’Connor is still alive. Ginsburg has no right to roll over in grave. Because of her hubris we are here.

          7. Stop. This is not RBG’s fault. We’re here because of the electoral college and a lot of people who voted for Trump.

          8. Also a special place in hell for Susan Collins who supports Roe v Wade but voted to confirm these f-ckers anyway.

          9. Many women become pro life when they get pregnant. If that isn’t your experience, it doesn’t have to be, but you don’t speak for all women.

          10. Do you have any source for that statement that “many” women become anti-abortion after experiencing pregnancy? Admittedly I run in centrist to liberal circles, but all of my friends became even more pro-choice after experiencing pregnancy and parenthood.

        2. Being a mother has also radicalized me, including on abortion. No one should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

      4. My sister said the same thing, and her pregnancy went pretty smoothly too.

      5. Same. I had a pretty easy pregnancy. Calm delivery with an amazing epidural. I still spend every day tapped out after working and raising a toddler. I can’t imagine being forced to have a child you don’t really really want or can afford.

        1. Yep, I had a very much wanted, easy pregnancy and delivery, a healthy child, an amazing partner, and plenty of money (although someone on the mom’s board once asked me how I afforded a house on my “tiny” HHI of £90k a year) and parenting is still really HARD! I wouldn’t trade it for anything but it’s made me realise how much harder it would be without those resources or without the desire to have a child.

        2. The thing is…no one would be forced to raise a child they don’t want. Adoption is always an option.

          1. Not in many states where r@pists still have custody rights. They need to consent to the adoption. Many women will be forced to chose between allowing their r@pist or his family to raise the baby or raising it themselves.

            I used to work in the child protection area in my state. It is much harder to put a child up for adoption if the dad and his family do not consent. And many times they will fight it to get back at the birth mom.

            Adoption as an alternative to abortion overlooks the very real dangers of pregnancy and giving birth. US leads the developed world in maternal mortality.

          2. I’m the one who made the comment about pregnancy making me pro-choice and it’s specifically because of how hard pregnancy is, nothing to do with parenthood. It’s f-ing hard on your body! I didn’t suffer horrible nausea or body aches but I got an autoimmune disease and a half a dozen cavities out of it and that’s just the damage I know about. Women die in childbirth at alarmingly high rates in the US, especially in red states. Make no mistake: even in a magical world in which there were no back alley abortions, more women will die as a direct result of abortion being illegal. Asking a woman to risk her health and life to carry a child she doesn’t want to term so someone else can have it is insane.

          5. I’m not a lawyer so I can’t speak to what others posted about dad intervening, but there is research about moms being forced to carry a baby to term planning to put it up for adoption and then all the stigma and hormones cause them to change their mind. Then kid stays with mom and ends up in abuse/neglect. I support the “just put it up for adoption” argument in theory but it’s not that great in practice.

          7. And no one is forced to die of kidney failure – most of us can live perfectly well with one kidney, so we can just take your extra one to help the person with kidney failure survive!

            What, you don’t want your body used to save the life of another person? But I thought we were being pro life. I have a friend who donated a kidney to her MIL and her kidney surgery was easier than her pregnancy (placenta accreta).

            Also maybe all adults should donate blood regularly and also be entered into the bone marrow donor registry, that would probably save a good number of lives.

          9. If adoption is such an easy and available option, why do we need foster care? Why is it that thousands and thousands of kids end up with no viable / responsible parents and get shuffled from place to place? There have been an abundance of ‘adoptable’ kids since the beginning of time … the fact that so many are left to rot in foster care gives me pause to assume that all of these post-Roe unwanted pregnancies will end up as adopted babies.

          10. 2:29, the kids left to “rot” in foster care do not enter foster care as adoptable infants to whom parental rights have been terminated. Most kids enter foster care later on, usually with significant trauma. In addition, adoption is not the goal of foster care–reunification often is.

          11. Right, but most women who are forced to carry a child to term end up keeping the child as least in the short term. So these unwanted babies aren’t going to end up as cute, adoptable infants either. But a lot of them will eventually end up in foster care because their parents didn’t have the resources to provide for them.

      6. I was already extremely pro-choice, but having 4 miscarriages definitely solidified my views in a more personal way. I have two children. Not six, four of whom are dead. Most pro-lifers would agree with that analysis. So what are they even talking about.

      8. It also made me realize that it was really important to have the ability to abort after the anatomy scan (20 weeks). A lot of women don’t get any scans before then so if there is something wrong with the fetus they simply wouldn’t know they wanted to abort until that late.

        1. Even if you get an earlier scan, there are many issues (like a problem organ development) that aren’t noticeable until around then. First trimester scans are pretty limited in what they can tell you about the health of the baby.

      9. Same for me. I was always pro-choice but became radically so after getting pregnant. I had a pretty horrible early pregnancy (hyperemesis) and I hung onto my job only because I had a professional job with paid leave and disability benefits; if I’d been working at Target or something I likely would have been fired. Then I had to have an emergency c-section due to complications at the end of my pregnancy. I also just didn’t like being pregnant, and having a newborn was not an experience I wanted to repeat. I got an IUD and never looked back.

        Being pregnant is hard and parenting is hard and no one should have to do it if they don’t want to. And it infuriates me that Amy Comey Barrett – who should not be on the Court, period – thinks that because people can put babies in drop boxes at the fire station, that solves the problem and therefore abortion should be illegal. I hope she gets cancer and dies painfully and please know, it takes a lot for me to wish that on someone.

          1. This poster’s thought will not affect whether Barrett will suffer any pain in her life. Barrett’s actions have real consequences and will cause people to actually die (some painfully).

          3. LOL. anon2, based on your other comment this morning I do not give one single f— about what you have to say or what you think, about my comment, about life in general, etc. I have zero respect for women like you and your opinions mean less than nothing to me. So next time, save yourself the trouble of commenting, okay? Byeee!

      10. Me, too. I was pro-choice before I got pregnant, but now that I’ve been through the entire process, twice? People should not be forced to do that.

      11. Totally agree. Going through pregnancy opened my eyes to what a physically taxing, career-impacting, life-changing process pregnancy is. I can get to a place where I can forgive young, ignorant people who have never experienced pregnancy, who truly believe in the “pro-life” concept. I can’t forgive women who have been through it themselves and are still “pro-life” ie. anti-choice.

    2. It is infuriating that Trump appointed three of those judges. I absolutely hate everyone who did not vote for Hilary in 2016.

        1. I feel like this is why Democrats can’t get anything done. They stand their ground and don’t compromise with each other and then this happens! They all stood by Trump even though he is a horrible human being but they accomplished a lot!! Sanders should have sat down and shut up!

          3. Yes. Progressives seem really naive when it comes to getting anything actually done politically. They just want their uncompromising views aired for public consumption. (I voted for Clinton and for Biden, BTW)

          4. sure point the finger at progressives and let’s not talk about how Manchin and Sinema prevent this elected administration from getting stuff done.

          5. I don’t quite understand how this administration not “getting stuff done” prevents the people who were confirmed to SCOTUS during the last administration from overturning Roe.

          6. abolishing the filibuster, strengthening voting rights, expanding the supreme court, are all things that come to mind on this very day, and were axed by Manchin, not Bernie and not AOC.

          7. But if T had not won in 2016 none of this would be happening right now. I don’t think it’s AOC’s fault this is happening. It is a fact that Clinton would not have picked people like Kavanaugh, Barrett, or Gorsuch for SCOTUS.

      2. Yes, I hope all of the women who just couldn’t bring themselves to vote for Hillary in 2016 because she wasn’t lefty enough or because she should have left Bill for his infidelities or for whatever other reason they made up are happy now. I am not going to go out and protest for abortion rights this week/weekend because I did my advocacy in 2016, when it mattered, trying to get people to vote for Hillary. That’s when we could have made a difference. Nothing we do now will matter.

        1. Anecdotally, my experience is that it was mostly men who didn’t vote for her because she wasn’t lefty enough. Not shocking that they weren’t super worried about this eventuality.

          1. +1. I have never heard a left-leaning, pro-choice woman say she didn’t or wouldn’t vote for HRC. Only men.

        2. All of those stated reasons are pretext. They could not bring themselves to vote for a woman. This is exactly how we got here.

    3. I feel the same way: My struggles with miscarriage, loss, and successful pregnancy only made me more sure in my position that every woman should be able to choose. No one can put themselves in someone else’s shoes, especially when it comes to this issue.

    4. Since it will no longer be safe to have even a wanted pregnancy (because many states will outlaw proper care for miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, etc.), all women should refuse to engage in any activities that could possibly lead to pregnancy. That would bring the men to their knees pretty quickly.

      1. LOL no it won’t. States are actively creating legislation to allow child brides, raising the requirements thresholds for rape, and more. Consent won’t mean didly.

      2. You must be joking? Wasn’t there a Greek play about this where all the women were assaulted? Plus, why should we deny ourselves of this activity? This is not a gift we bestow upon men! I’m sure you are a troll but omfg.

        1. I’m not a troll and I’m absolutely serious. It will no longer be safe for women to have $ex in this country, so we should stop doing it.

          2. At 10:03, or to assume women don’t have a strong desire for sex! Depriving women of that is not ok.

          3. I think you mean we should stop doing it with fertile men. A lot of options still on the table…

        2. The play was Lysistrata, women stop doing it with men to get the men to end the war. I don’t think I remember the women being assaulted. Unless there’s another play with the same plot that I don’t know about?

        3. Lysistrata is the play you are thinking of, but I don’t think they’re assaulted in it. Been a while since I’ve read it.

    5. Even if the final opinion backs down from this position, it’s basically given grist to every conservative that (a) there’s a sympathetic ear to their complaints and (b) the judges are susceptible to public pressure. What a f’in nightmare. This is basically a no-win at this point.

      “Let’s undo this issue that has divided our country” yeah right. Let’s absolve ourselves of public responsibility and let women’s healthcare fall into the dark ages. Let’s keep women pregnant and out of the office, let’s keep poor families struggling and overwhelmed with childcare, let’s keep fighting for the sac o’ cells at the expense of the women present and existing in front of you. Let’s keep America’s maternal mortality rate high! We’re number one!

  5. The leak had to have been on purpose. The barricades went up around the building far too quickly for the leak to have been an unplanned event. Either the court is testing to see if this decision is going to be the match that lights the fire to burn the place down, or they think the decision and all it’s horrible ramifications will get lost in the noise of ‘But the Leak’ for a time. They’ll strip women of their bodily autonomy, and move on to the next civil rights item on their list to retract. I hope we choose to focus on getting all these lying, bad faith, traitorous people out of positions of power and use the leak for the canary in the coal mine test it probably is, not be used by it.
    I am not in DC, I do not have representatives in the Federal or State position that care about this, h*ll, they WANT this. I volunteer and donate to political, reproductive and other causes, but that is a marathon effort in my state, not a sprint and certainly not something that can get in front of this harmful decision. I am exhausted and yet filled with rage this morning.

    2. Lol this is absurd. The court did not leak this a staffer did. They can get barricades up in minutes anytime.

      1. I think a staffer probably did it but likely with at least tacit approval from their boss. People seem convinced it’s the liberal minority trying to incite outrage, but I think it could be the majority hoping the leak will distract from the actual decision.

    3. The barricades were already up because of the guy who immolated himself over climate change.

      2. OP here – I did not know that. Thank you. His death was what, less than a week ago?
        Things are not fine right now.

  6. if anyone has gone through the hospice experience with a parent or family member, any recommendations? from telling other family members to nurses, products or wish you knew earlier to do’s, please share.

    my uncle was only on hospice for a few hours before we lost him less than a month ago and my dad for a day or two, but that was 2 decades ago.

    I appreciate your help.

    for other readers,if your Thing is to get your EOL affairs in order, please take this as a sign.

    1. Thank you for this reminder, I’ve had it on my list to update some items in my estate plan and your post is the sign I need to get it done this week.
      I do not have helpful tips for you regarding hospice. Hopefully the people who provide the hospice care can provide you info on what items you need for your particular situation. I wish you all the best.

    2. If you’re doing in home hospice don’t listen to the people who tell you hospice does everything it is a lie. You’re left alone with your dying relative most of the time. I’m glad we brought my mom home it was her dying wish but it broke me. The trauma hasn’t healed.

      1. I’m so sorry; that had to have been so rough on you.

        Is there a list of services or other things to be on the lookout for? I get that a bed and pain meds are part of it but I am not sure about the rest re expectations to have at a good place.

        1. Yes we needed round the clock care. And didn’t have it. And there was a 24 hour morphine gap at discharge which is torture when your loved one is in pain.

        2. These are some of the roughest moments in my memory, but I can speak to this. My Dad died at home with hospice care. As stated above, most of the time it was us alone with him.

          The person will need help toileting, or else needs adult diapers, and everything that goes with handling that. The person needs to be bathed and changed. They need to be fed, and when they can’t eat anymore they need hydration.

          If the person is not consistently aware, they may try to get up and move in ways they are no longer capable to do. They don’t remember that they’re unsafe to be walking around. There is a fall risk in that case. My Dad was much bigger than anyone in the house, so if he tried to move around we would need potentially more than one person to try to keep him in or at least near his bed.

          I don’t know whether I would make this choice myself (it was my mom’s decision, and she was the primary caregiver). I know that almost everyone would prefer to die at home, but I also know that I did not feel equipped at all for what we were dealing with. I don’t know how many families are. Yet dying in a hospital probably is awful for everyone too. I don’t know.

      2. I think another way to word this would be to check what hospice and your loved one’s end-of-life insurance will cover. My grandfather had insurance that would pay for 24 hour care, but only after/if he had been hospitalized for X days, which he never needed, so we paid for 24 hour care out of his assets. (We were fortunate indeed.)

        You very much want a licensed nurse to stop by every day or so and discuss feeding, drinking, and medicating (morphine toward the end is seen as a nice option just so they don’t feel anything, even if they aren’t suffering), and you want a CNA to sit with them to attend to bathroom needs, bathing, turning them in bed, etc.

      3. My parent used a large for-profit hospice company that was good at signups, but bad at managing care.
        some advice
        -get cell phone numbers of the MD/NP and don’t be afraid to escalate and revoke hospice care quickly
        -if you think the hospice’s assessment may be incorrect, it’s ok to try to get a second opinion (but you’ll probably have to pay out of pocket or revoke hospice). My parent experienced a hospice that didn’t want to provide care to improve quality of life (but required some additional staffing, which they were contractually obliged to provide, but wasn’t profitable for them).
        -ask around about quality of hospice organizations—the ones that are best at signups don’t necessarily have the best care. points 1 and 2 are probably not so necessary with a higher quality nonprofit hospice, but I didn’t know at the time.

      4. First, please allow this internet stranger to send you strength and positivity. I have worked with home hospice for my father, as well as in patient for my mother. Both parents had cancer. The in patient experience was far, far easier for my family. It was difficult to do the same job managing pain with the in home, although obviously better than my family would have done without it. Having said all of this, while I wish my parents were still here, the experience of assisting with their care and being a witness to their deaths, as well as the resulting changes in my life was an incredible growth experience that made me a better, more aware and empathetic person.

        One thing I know, both experientially and from reading and talking to medical care provider, is that most people wait to long to seek hospice care. There really is a tremendous shift of the burden when you are not carry it alone. I think there was a radical difference, though, with the shift with in patient, rather than home hospice situation where family are still overwhelmingly the caregivers.

        Having said all of this, while I wish my parents were still here, the experiences of assisting with their care and being a witness to their deaths, as well as the resulting changes in my life were incredible growth experiences that made me a better, more aware and empathetic person.

        1. thank you from OP. I’m sure you were wonderful before and your post was very thoughtful and kind

    3. My MIL was on hospice care the second time for about 5 weeks, and my mother was in hospice care for 6 weeks. Both were in nursing homes.

      If my brother and I had been in a position to leave my job for the time mom was in hospice care, we might have been able to assist with her care at home. My dad couldn’t care for her by himself. We had a crisis less than 24 hours after she entered hospice care, due to medication issues.

      If you have a rotation of people who can help, it’s possible to to do at home. If it’s one or two people, it’s physically not possible.

      Let the person who is dying guide who knows. When my aunt died in February, she was very clear that there was to be nothing on social media. She only lifted that prohibition about 12 hours before she died. It made for some hectic hours while we contacted everyone who might care.

      1. In my area there are in-patient hospice facilities where people can get full nursing care, but they are on hospice. My friend had to have her dad move to one from the hospital when he was dying of lung cancer because he was a big guy – 6’4″, 275 lbs before getting sick, and there was no way she and her mom could handle his toileting, changing his sheets, etc. He was only there for about two weeks before he passed but it was not the situation others are describing, where she was left alone with her dying dad and had to provide all of his care. Not sure if this is an option everywhere but it’s what I’ll choose if, say, my husband (who is also a big guy) gets sick as I wouldn’t be able to care for him at home without potentially harming myself.

        I will also share this. My grandmother was on hospice in her nursing home and we came and visited every day, for multiple hours a day when we were able to. She went into “active dying” and no longer knew we were present – could not respond to us in any way – and so I went home, and a few hours later my uncle left to go get some rest. Wouldn’t you know, minutes after he left, she passed. You can say that either “they choose their time” or that it’s just chance, but the bottom line is that once someone is in that end stage, very little of what goes on around them is noticeable to them, and very little of it makes a difference in their comfort, mental state, or awareness. By the time my grandmother moved to the nursing home, she was nearing the point where all her problems would be over. Neither myself, my dad or my uncle could keep her at home with us – she needed too much care, round-the-clock – and I don’t know that she had a different death, or a worse death, in the facility than she would have had at one of our homes. If that’s helpful for anyone.

        1. In our mid-sized city there is exactly one inpatient hospice facility with something like 12 beds. I would not assume you will have access to one if you need it. The lack of options is truly horrifying.

          1. This is correct.

            Most insurance doesn’t cover extended stays in inpatient hospice, even if such a place exists, even if by miracle it has beds. You never know when someone might pass so it is difficult to sometimes know when to move in. And even in the nicest hospice inpatient facilities, they will be by themselves for most of the day…. like a nursing home.

    4. Tangential, but I really recommend the book Final Gifts (read the summary first to make sure it aligns with what you are comfortable with). I read it during the weeks my father was dying slowly with in-home hospice. It helped me immensely. And yes it was still a very traumatic experience. But I am glad he was at home and that I got to walk with him to the end.

    5. I’m very sorry you’re going through this. Both of my parents passed after hospice care, one after over a year and the other in about 10 days. Both did home hospice, meaning a doctor visited about once a week and an aide and nurse came more frequently. That said, there was a lot of time when we were on our own, although help was always a phone call away. Hospice staff are generally amazing and can help you with the emotional and practical side of things, so don’t hesitate to reach out to them as needed.

      If your loved one will be on hospice for a while, please look into respite care. That’s when they go into a facility for a few days to give the caregiver a break.

      Just because your loved one is on home hospice doesn’t mean they will die at home. When my parents became very ill at the end, they moved to a hospice facility. They didn’t want to pass at home, and it was more reassuring on the family because there was 24 hour care. But hospice will work with you if they do want to stay at home.

      Follow their lead about who to tell, but know that things can change quickly. My mom ended up passing much more quickly than anticipated and her best friend of 40+ years didn’t make it to the facility to see her one last time. That was a heartbreaking conversation for us both. Otherwise, try to enjoy the time you have left with them. Talk. Say all the unspoken things. Make sure they know they are loved. Hearing is one of the last senses to leave us, so keep on talking even after they can no longer respond.

    6. My parents regret was that my dad didn’t participate in hospice sooner. They helped a ton in helping my mom access resources to help my dad and took a huge burden off of her as a caregiver (though she still was his caregiver until the end since they weren’t around every day or at night or anything). They both felt a lot more relief knowing a second set of trained eyes was available to track his symptoms and help manage his medications and give a practical take on what to expect next and how to best manage. So many people think of hospice as the terminal diagnosis, but it’s not. It also doesn’t mean you’re going to die immediately. Had my parents not had such preconceptions, I think it would have helped in them getting help sooner. The hospice folks were absolutely wonderful about making sure my dad had equipment to help with things (like going to the bathroom easier or having access to a wheel chair or medical bed) and practical advice for just so much (treating wounds from being sedentary, tips for helping dad’s appetite, etc.). Every single one who helped (three rotated) became like family during that time. My dad looked forward to visiting with them since being home all the time had made his world so small. And one even attended our dinner celebration for dad even though she didn’t know anyone other than my mom. (She also pulled me aside and gave me some great advice about being a support to my mom.) Absolute angels on Earth and I wish I could let them know now that we’re doing OK and how much their care meant during such a hard time.

    7. I appreciate all the advice as I will likely need hospice for my husband sometime in the next year. I had mostly decided that he will need to be inpatient and these replies solidified it – I don’t have family members to help with the 24hr care of someone that I can’t lift. And even with 24hr CNA help, I don’t think it will be enough. The pain aspect of his diagnosis at end of life is going to be brutal. He may not like being inpatient but I hope by then he’ll accept it.

      1. Hi there, are you the poster whose husband got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer some time ago? If so, please know you have been in my thoughts/prayers. I am so sorry you are going through what you’re going through.

      2. Hi anon, I’m a hospice/palliative care doctor. I’m so sorry about your husband and that you are both facing this. I want to warn you that hospice does not automatically cover inpatient care, and most people on hospice die at home. It depends on the clinical situation and the health insurance plan. I’d be happy to explain in more detail — it gets into some boring technical policy details that I won’t spell out here. If you post a burner email, I can reach out to you.

        1. You are so kind. I think I’m too early in the process but maybe I can save your email for later. burner6715 at g mail

          Thanks

        2. OP here and would also be happyb to hear from you. h.rette13@gmail.com

          thank you all for the kind words and suggestions.

          my thoughts are with those who have gone through this and those who have it ahead of then. it’s the beatblast present you can give, no mayter how it is wrapped or where it is given.

  7. For those in law, what sort of implications or possible repercussions can come from the Supreme Court overturning their own decision? This hasn’t been done before, correct?

    1. Isn’t this exactly what they have always done? Didn’t brown v board overturn Plessy v Ferguson? Didn’t Lawrence v Texas overturn Bowers v Hardwick?

        1. Hardly all the time with “superprecedent.” This is very uncommon, especially after 50 years. Brown and Plessy are basically the biggest two in history until now (well, whenever this comes to pass).

    2. It’s been done many times before. There are no repercussions or implications to the Supreme Court itself.

      1. Yes and Alito so helpfully cited all of the cases where this has been done before. Where the court has overturned past cases of discrimination in favor of giving more constitutional rights to people. Whereas this takes it away… To look at yourself in the mirror and write this with a straight face is such bs.

        1. Yeah, I think this touches on what I was thinking (that the Court hasn’t previously overturned a decision that meant people would have fewer rights).

          1. Well, it depends on what you believe is a person. Clearly women are no longer considered people and fertilized eggs are.

      2. I guess I meant legal repercussions, not the institution of the Supreme Court. I remember something about Roe being based on a previous SC privacy case regarding a married couple and birth control. Can overturning Roe have a cascading effect into other areas with privacy concerns, medical or otherwise?

        Running on two hours of sleep, my apologies for the slapdash question!

        1. Griswold. It is the underpinning of almost every decision that has enshrined a right to privacy. If Griswold is overturned, many of the laws that protect medical privacy will be at serious risk.

      3. I think the repercussion and implication is an erosion of the rule of law. If the court uses this decision to overturn the whole line of substantive due process privacy cases (Obergefell, Lawrence, Griswald, etc), it completely undermines the rule of law and public trust in the court and the legal system.

        1. Interesting. The right says that Roe is the decision that undermined the rule of law and public trust in the legal system.

    3. The conservatives say that it has been done before for decisions that are “egregiously wrong” – most notably in Brown v Board (overturning Plessy). The politico article talks about this. It’s bull but most likely won’t totally delegitimize them.

  8. On a lighter note, check out yesterday’s NYT real estate article on five million dollar homes in California. There’s a comment that I’m convinced is from our beloved Ellen. It gave me a laugh on such a depressing news day.

    4. OMG I am screaming with laughter!!

      In other news, I think one of the commenters higher up in that thread hit the nail on the head when they said that at the moment, $5 million is the sweet spot for the perfect just-right house in California. *sigh*

      1. I feel so poor in my house that is apparently worth half that (hard to believe but Zillow says so!

    5. A much belated thank you for pointing this out. I don’t think otherwise I would have read the comments on that article, and, like you, I desperately needed the laugh. FOOEY on the Supreme Court’s right wing for denying me my constitutional rights.

  9. Check on your friends in red states today, we are not okay.
    I am so fucking tired.

    2. I am so sorry you have to keep fighting this. I would tell all people in red states to move to blue states but that would just make things worse, wouldn’t? Unless the electoral college is eliminated, and votes for president are actually based on population, while the senate is redesigned. Which is what should happen but won’t.

      1. Yes. Also “just move” isn’t very helpful to those of us who have jobs or family or other obligations keeping us here. Not everyone can just pick up and move.

        1. Exactly. I don’t want to be here, but my mom has dementia and needs to stay where she’s lived for decades, because only her long-term memories are still intact.

        2. Also not helpful is when people are like “Well, this is what the red states wanted…” or “Red states deserve this”.

          I live in a blue city in a red state. This is not what I wanted for myself or the women in my state. Or for ANY woman in my country. The ramifications for this for low-income and/or WOC are chilling.

          1. +1 million. There are lots of blue voters in red states and this is not what we wanted.

        3. I mean I get it but your life is at risk now. Are you going to wait until you are forced to become an actual refugee before you leave the hellscape that red states are becoming?

          1. My life is not at risk. My partner has permanent birth control in place and we use condoms and in the extremely unlikely event that both birth control methods failed, I have the means to travel out of state or even out of the country if necessary. This decision is terrible and will impact so many women who aren’t as privileged as I am or who have abusive or controlling partners, but it’s a beat too far to say the life of every woman of child-bearing age in a red state is in danger.

          2. Oh my wife and I are definitely working on getting out of here. But that’s a option not available to many and I’m not going to pretend that it is. Red states aren’t necessarily the most conservative; they’re the most gerrymandered, the most disenfranchised.

          3. There are many Tribes whose homelands are in what are now red states.

            Many Indigenous people want to live near their family and their Tribe’s home base. Some folks have dedicated their lives to working for their Tribe and have strong cultural and familial connections to the land.

            Moving away from your ancestral homeland is a hard choice that’s not available to everyone.

        1. Yup.., that’s what I’m going to do. I am hitting menopause, single, and need to contribute more to society. I’m heading out of my blue bubble and will go somewhere purple.

    3. I am, too, but my state has a damn constitutional amendment on the ballot in the August primary that would outlaw the procedure altogether. I don’t have the time or energy to be outraged at the Supreme Court. I have to think about the fight literally in front of me.

      1. I’m from KS and just want to correct your lie about the constitutional amendment on the ballot in August. The proposed amendment would merely reverse the KS Supreme Court’s decision in Hodes and clarify that the state constitution does not include a right to abortion. It will not “outlaw the procedure altogether”–unfortunately.

        1. LOL…. “merely reverse” the supreme court’s decision… what exactly do you think is going to happen after that? Anti-choicers can’t get through a sentence without being disingenuous.

        3. No, with the near certainty that Roe is being overturned, it does. You can dress it up as “fixing a court decision”, but with the other laws already on the books, this will effectively outlaw the procedure.

    4. I’m also annoyed at all those companies moving locations to red states and then saying they will pay to fly employees to blue states if needed. Who wants to have that conversation with HR! Just pay the taxes in blue states!!

    5. I am a healthcare attorney in a red state that already has laws on the books severely restricting abortion that go into effect as soon as SCOTUS says it is legal to do so. My clients are freaking out and I am devastated.

      1. I’m worried about Griswold. There are numerous healthcare and genetic privacy laws and regulations that rely on the presumption of the right to privacy established in Griswold that are at risk if it falls.

        The right to assure that only individuals actively involved in your case can access your records is a key component of healthcare. The right to know who has accessed your medical record is one of the cornerstones of medical privacy today. If we lose those, we lose the trust of our patients.

  10. I broke up with my boyfriend of 2 and a half years last night. I’m in my mid/late 30s and want to have kids, and he told me that he isn’t sure when he will be ready, if ever, for kids. I’m pretty sure I made the right choice, but it’s so hard. He’s my best friend. We have lived together for a year and a half, most of which we were both wfh, so spent almost all of our time together. I’m in the office so I can get away from him today and don’t know how I will manage until he moves out. I don’t know what I’m looking for, I just needed to say it and don’t feel ready to tell all of my friends yet.

    3. I’m so sorry. Good for you for making a tough decision now, and for being true to what you want.

    4. Hugs from an internet stranger. You did make the right choice–any guy who isn’t ready at that age is never going to be ready. And once you are through this, you will have the chance to meet a great guy who is ready for that with you. Lean on your family and friends, go in the office as much as you can, and get home out of the apartment ASAP.

    5. Hugs. I left my EXH partly for this reason (although we had other issues too) – we had been together forever and he kept saying he wanted kids “later” but when pushed kind of exploded and said he actually never had wanted kids and this was all my fault for pushing him, so I left. I truly thought I would be alone forever and was looking into getting a donor and having a child on my own. I met my now DH a few months later, and a three years down the line, we are a million times happier than I was with EXH, and I am 5 months pregnant with our child. I know it’s hard right now, and the time of living together while not together (I slept in the guest room) was probably the hardest of my life. Things looked up when I got my own place and reinvested in a life of my own. Give yourself space to grieve, but know that better things will come.

      1. I think it’s already too late for me to look for someone else. At this point, given my age, my choices are to be a single mom or not have (biological) kids.

    6. I wish that this could be easier. You are making a hard choice to make it possible to experience your larger dream of having kids. When I was in my thirties, I broke up with a man I truly loved, but who had changed his mind about having kids. Not going to lie, it was so hard, and I was heartbroken. Slowly, slowly, I healed and things got better. Fast forward, great husband, great kids, and I am so glad that I slogged through the pain to get here. It will be difficult, but stay in touch with the reasons you did this.

    8. A big hug. If he’s “not ready yet” for kids, he’s either never ready or doesn’t want them with you. It is really hard to leave a good relationship at this stage in life, but it’s also the right choice.

    9. I got divorced (another fundamental incompatibility issue) in my mid/late 30s. I knew it was the right decision, but I was also incredibly sad and frightened of what the future might bring. Today, I’m remarried and the mother of an infant. That heartbreak made this joy possible.

    10. I’m so sorry. Please take care of yourself. Expect this process to be hard. Call friends. Meditate. And report back to us so we know how you are doing.

    11. I’m so sorry. Please take care of yourself. Expect this process to be hard. Call friends. Meditate. And report back to us so we know how you are doing.

    13. I just want to say I’m sorry and that these are the worst break-ups of all because no one did anything wrong, but it’s the right move. I was on the flip side years ago. I broke up with a long-time boyfriend because I didn’t want kids and he did. It was so darn hard and I questioned myself a lot. I couldn’t stay in contact eventually because it was so hard to see him because I missed him so darn much. But at the end of the day, if you love someone enough (including yourself) you need to follow your heart and this isn’t an issue that has compromise. I went on to meet my husband (divorced and grown son) and I love our life together. I’m grateful all of the time that I don’t have kids. Had I stayed in my past relationship, I’m worried I would have been convinced to have kids and been resentful of my life. If you were to stay and not have kids or passively age out of having kids, I worry that is how you would feel. You are at the hardest part right now, but it will get easier. Some day you will look back and realize “great person, but wrong life” and thank the you from today.

    14. Internet hugs and congratulations on making a hard choice that helps you stay true to yourself and your goals!

      Single motherhood and non-bio kids are both solid paths to motherhood if you don’t connect with the right partner in your timeframe.

      I was prepared to go the single motherhood route but ended up finding a partner and became a mom at 39. Hang in there!

  11. who do you think leaked the opinion? like this is completely unprecedented. and what do you think the goal of the leak is? also, i cannot believe the worst president in history got to appoint 3 SCOTUS justices.

    1. My money is on a Roberts clerk with Roberts’ approval. SCOTUS is just a dumpster fire right now and he is to blame for lots of it. He has totally lost control as Chief Justice.

    2. Leaked by a liberal staffer in the desperate hope that one of the judges will see the reaction and change their minds.

      1. I dunno, I just think it’s going to backfire. I think the 5 in favor of overturning Roe just have more motivation to dig in and hold fast to their position, now that the world knows they were going to do that. If any one of them goes back on their decision now, they’ll never hear the end of it. I really want that to happen but I think the chances of it happening are really, really low. You know for sure Barrett won’t go back, being that she’s a religious zealot.

      2. I think the leak had the opposite effect. None of the conservative justices can change their mind without being a monster to the Republican party now. I think it was a clerk for one of the conservative justices so that none of them can back out and that the clerk had his judges permission.

      3. No way. I think this was leaked by the conservative side to soften the blow and socialize it a bit so the actual decision is less of a shock.

        1. That’s a really serious allegation that you shouldn’t throw around with something to back it up.

    4. Surprised to see so many thinking the leaker is liberal — Chris Hayes is tweeting a lot about how this mostly benefits the Republicans. a) locks the 5 into voting the way they are, b) takes the sting out of the eventual opinion, and c) gives Republican nominees the ability to posture about the horribleness of the leak instead of addressing the horribleness of the opinon.

      I’ll bet it was someone on Alito’s side, if not A himself.

        1. Yes. Classic. The Supreme Court decides I’m not a person and then gets upset about how I found out.

          1. But hey at least corporations are still people. I hope we all feel good and cuddly about that.

      3. I’m sort of surprised that is the majority take, as well, but I will say that it’s the unanimous take among my seven friends who have had federal appellate clerkships in the last five years, so perhaps it’s right.

        It seems like it would help conservatives, although may help motivate dems/centrists to vote…

        1. Oh yeah I think the Democrats midterm chances just went way up (up from basically zero, so still probably not great). Pretty much nobody is thrilled with Biden or the Dem Congress and this gives people a reason to vote.

          1. I’m on the fence about the midterms impact – recently polling has suggested that abortion is not a move-the-needle issue for most voters except those who were already highly motivated, but on the other hand, that was in the context of Roe being good law. To your point, though, not sure if makes enough difference to do much for the Ds chances given how low they were.

      4. If the leaker is a liberal who threw a Hail Mary pass to try to pressure one of the five into breaking away, he will be a hero to the Left. The legal profession, particularly legal academia, leans quite far left. He can find a job as a professor after this, no problem.

        A leaker on the right is committing professional suicide. All you are doing is foreclosing opportunities you would have had elsewhere. What law firms or law schools would hire you? Okay maybe Regent, but they would take you anyway.

        1. He’ll actually likely be disbarred, and most law schools require professors to be admitted to the bar in some state unless they are foreign-qualified. I think this is career-ending. (And I’m a former law professor.)

  12. Kind of silly brag on a tough day, but I realized that I have been consistently meeting/exceeding CDC recommended exercise per week for the first time in my entire life. What are you proud of today?

    1. I’m proud of my kid going from unable to ride a pedal bike to pedaling confidently in the 1.5 mile trip home yesterday. He wobbled and said “NAME, you can do it, you just need to keep trying!” so clearly we’re doing something right as parents.
      And I’m proud of myself for doing the thing I’ve been avoiding for 8 weeks, which literally took me 20 minutes.

    2. This is my first job with “senior” in the title, and it’s also a switch to a heavily-regulated industry, so the double whammy has been strangling my imposter syndrome since I started here last fall.

      Today someone in a junior role e-mailed me a complicated question, and I knew the answer without having to ask anyone else. That sounds so lame when I type it out, but mastering compliance issues on top of company procedures on top of my field’s skillset has been a lot.

    3. I’m proud that I bowed out of an out-of-town activity that my husband and a bunch of our friends were doing over the weekend because I just didn’t want to do it. Instead I went along for the ride but instead of doing the activity I walked 25,000 steps and 10 miles on my own and had a fabulous time exploring the place where we were staying. (And I’m extra proud that I didn’t rub it in when their activity turned out to be a bust, even though I kind of knew it would be. Heh.)

    4. I needed this thread. I have cooked dinner (with vegetables! But any cooking is a win) twice this week. It’s been a year (pregnancy, infant, cancer) since I cooked two nights in a row, and mostly I wasn’t cooking at all. And I also scheduled long naps every day this week, because that’s what my post chemo self needs , and I’m way better at taking them because they’re on the calendar :).

  13. I’m in a solidly blue state and I feel pretty secure, but I’m still enraged! What can we actually do to fight this or help women in red/purple states? What can we do at this point?

    1. Things I’ve done and plan to do:
      – donate now and regularly going forward to abortion funds in the states with the worst restrictions to help the people who need it right now
      – donate to pro-choice candidates nationwide
      – protest! it’s easy to just make donations, but this one, I think we need to show up
      – call or write your congressperson and senators and push for the passage of the WHPA to codify the right to abortion nationwide

        1. Thanks for posting this! I just joined my local chapter of National Network of Abortion Funds and sponsored a free membership for someone else. Will work on those other actions too – I think you’re right about all of it.

  14. Paging Nora from yesterday’s threads, you replied to one of my comments late and I wanted to address it here in case you see it: “Ugh I agree with you completely and he does not have that “impulse to provide”. I don’t need to be taken care of but if I’m dating someone I want to be taken care of at least a little.”

    Everyone needs to be taken care of. This is a trap I see younger ambitious/career-oriented women (myself included) fall into all the time–“we’re strong and smart, we can carry our world on our shoulders and handle it, we don’t need a man to take care of us, we’re looking for a partner not a provider.”

    A man should be both a partner and a provider, the same way a woman can (and is expected to be in this day and age!) You do need to be taken care of, your potential children will need to be taken care of, your ailing relatives will need to be taken care of. And you (imo) NEED to be with a partner who can recognize when you and the people you love need to be taken care of even if you won’t say it, and will proactively hop to what needs to be done to alleviate your hurt or frustration. This is a quality that unfortunately a lot of men do lack in my experience and it’s been my #1 trait to screen for in potential partners. There are women who are OK with shouldering the emotional and mental responsibility with these things (so I’m told), but it doesn’t sound like you are one of them and that is 100% okay and will likely be better for you in the long run.

    1. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking since yesterday, and this is one of the things. I specifically feel smothered very easily, hate it when guys (or my family members) are at all clingy. So the not wanting to be taken care of is more a reaction to that than anything else. I have a huge extended codependent family and I absolutely hate it. I’ve dated men who were more like providers and didn’t like it – I felt like I wanted a partner. What I really want is something in the balance of the two.
      Still, people need to be responsible and proactive in times of crisis, or even in times of not-crisis. I like hanging out with him, and of course as we are saying here I would take care of any partner, but I don’t want someone to babysit.
      Yesterday he sent me some texts that made me think “of course he likes me, I’m making his life easier”. I posted something in the afternoon that I think people took as more positive than I meant it. Overall I totally get the chorus of dump him but since the internet and real life are different I’m going to have a few very frank conversations with him (what’s your plan for retirement? what did you mean by I don’t want to get promoted?) but yeah, I don’t think I will get a great answer to either and will have to end it.
      It is frustrating because I have broken up with guys a lot more often than they’ve broken up with me. But even though it has really been like 4 months these aren’t things that I think will fundamentally change so why waste time.

  15. I always swore I’d never vote Republican, but I’m in Ohio and today is the primary. I should go and vote for the least crazy, right?

    1. Yes, I vote in Republican primaries to choose the least crazy one. It’s not the same thing at all as voting for a Republican in the general election (although I have actually done that too, for mayor because it’s a pretty apolitical office and I like our mayor).

    2. If my state had open primaries, I’d do this. I kind of hate primaries, they tend just to move parties to the extremes.

    3. Yes, you should. Voting in a primary is not the same as voting for the candidate in the general election.

      1. Eh I’m in a very red state and there’s a crazy running against a non-crazy in the state senate R primary and polls suggest the non-crazy will win. State races aren’t always very similar to state politics as a whole. It really depends on what district you’re in. I’m in a district that has a lot of Romney Republicans who aren’t big Trumpers.

    7. I live in a red state with closed primaries and recently changed my registration to republican for the sole purpose of being able to vote in the republican primary elections. I threw up in my mouth doing it, and I am embarrassed that my name is now on a list of voters registered as republicans but at least this way I get a vote.

    8. Oh I do this all the time. But don’t you have to be registered for the party to vote in the primary? I didn’t think it was something you can do last minute.

      1. Depends on the state. In mine you can change your registration day of, so you can vote in whichever primary you want (but can’t vote in both).

      3. Nope, in Ohio you pick on the spot. I just voted and they asked me D or R when checking in. Op’s plan didn’t even occur to me so I voted D. Maybe next time.

      1. For governor, DeWine is the least crazy. However, he will happily sign any anti-abortion bill that comes along, and he refused to veto the recent law eliminating licensing and training requirements for concealed carrying of firearms. For Senator, of the seven Republicans only Dolan does not say the 2020 election was stolen. He’s clearly the least crazy but, yeah, he probably has no chance.

    10. Ohioans – there are several bills pending in the Ohio House and Senate seeking to restrict or ban abortion, some of which are tied directly to Roe getting overturned. Please write your rep and senator asking them to oppose these bills! (My username for a s*te listing the bills and providing a script for your outreach if you need a little help)

  16. For our non-American posters – how is this decision playing / being reported in your country?

    1. In Canada it’s being reported as something the social conservatives are watching with interest. There is currently a Conservative party leadership race occurring and it will be interesting to see the implications of reporting of the leak/decision.

      For reference – we currently have no federal law in lace. Decision between a woman and her doctor but in practice hard to access outside of major cities and generally not very available for 2nd/3rd trimester even for medical reasons – some women travel to US.

        1. NP. It’s all well and fine for the public system to pay for abortions but if you have to travel 8 hours to get one, it’s a pretty big barrier. Flights or rental car, hotel, time off work. Even if you get some of the costs back, curious family/friends want to know why you are going etc. It could be much more available.

    2. In the UK, it pushed Ukraine down the page on the Guardian. But abortion is pretty noncontentious in the UK (except, of course in Northern Ireland).

      1. In Germany, Ukraine is still very much the main story. Part of why it’s not a bigger story is that overturning Roe v. Wade is not that surprising from their perspective. It follows directly from GWB appeasing tea partyists demanding that creationism be taught as equal to evolution, and the political structure allowing lobbyists to prevent meaningful gun legislation even when children are mowed down on a regular basis. The writing has been on the wall that the USA as a beacon for progress and freedom is about to be extinguished.

        1. This. From reading Austrian and French media when visiting DH’s family, it’s my perception that Americans assume that other countries think more highly of the US than they actually do. It’s not seen as a beacon of rights and equality by other developed western democracies. If anything it is seen as violent (due to school shootings), unstable (Trump et al) and highly economically inequitable (healthcare/education).

    3. Norway here: reported as breaking news, with commentaries that it is making political shockwaves, and that it will have terrible consequences for poor women in particular.

      “Will have massive consequences for women’s rights in the US and for the US’ reputation in terms of women’s rights.”

    4. Czech rep & Hungary without any mention. We live with war in Ukraine / inflation / gas embargoes / Slovak government suing previous government members.

    5. In Denmark it is front page news on our national TV/radio broadcast (think BBC). But pretty neutally reported, focusing as much on the data leak as on the consequences. Not top billing on any of the national newspapers, and a lot of the headlines are leading with the leak.
      For what it is worth, abort is free, with no cost associated, and there is no real abortion opposition in DK, although the restrictions are not aligned with the new WHO guidelines (after 12 weeks you have to get an abortion approved by a board, partially because of the viability of the foster close to that time). So it doesn’t tap into a latent or open conflict in Denmark.

  17. Has anyone done an online grad degree that has asynchronous learning? There’s a program I’m very interested in, located in my city, but it’s all online and is asynchronous. I’m torn – the program fits the bill in every other way but asynchronous learning feels like it may be paying* for a degree taught be webinar and self study.

    * my employer would cover most of the degree – I’d be responsible for approx 9k out of pocket over 2 years. I can easily pay this from savings and would not need loans.

    1. I have not, but I suspect your suspicions are correct. If you’re just doing it to get the “stamp” o because you just want the line on your resume o because it’ll open up a pay increase at work, could still be worth it. But if you want the substantive knowledge and networking, I don’t think you’ll get it.

      1. I think I’ve had analysis paralysis in the past about finding the “perfect” grad program. I think I need to admit this doesn’t exist for me and what I’m looking for and go for a good enough, affordable program with a good local network.

        1. I think that’s probably right. Going back to school with other demands on your time (a job, a marriage, kids, whatever) does sort of limit your options, and it took me a bit of time to adjust to the fact that I wasn’t 17 and couldn’t just go find the best program that would let me in.

    2. I did 2 years of upper division undergrad computer science courses mostly asynchronously online and found the courses to be comparable in quality and rigor to the ones I’d taken in person. Like any program at a big university, some individual classes were better than others. Asynchronous online *can* be done really well. I liked when there were recorded lectures, you can go back and rewatch as many times as you need for a concept to click. My instructors were available for office hours and by email – all were very helpful.
      Find out what you can about the specific program you’re interested in. The fact that it’s asynchronous and online shouldn’t be a dealbreaker.

      1. This is helpful! My preference is a program with in person and online options. The only other program in my area is fully in person (which I think would be challenging logistically). This other program is also more expensive so I’d have to pay at least 15k out of pocket.

        While neither school has a national reputation, the online program has a better local reputation/high local employability.

        For my situation the combo of affordability and local network is probably enough for me to choose this program, I just don’t love the idea of asynchronous

        1. For what it’s worth, I’m about to start fully funded, in-person graduate study based on my coursework completed online and the recommendations from my instructors. Had I completed the bachelor’s degree (I already have a BA in another discipline, so I didn’t need to finish, just get the prereqs for grad school), my diploma would not have had an asterisk or anything on it indicating the coursework was completed online. I did take some on-campus courses when they could fit my schedule, but online was a much better fit with working full-time. I honestly didn’t notice the first bit of difference in rigor, and the instructors online were really, really available.

          I have made a few friends within the program, even though we’ve never met in real life. It’s a fairly solitary discipline, though, and I’ve noticed that the people who tend to form big study groups and whatnot also tend to be the ones who end up having issues with cheating/plagiarism. I never particularly missed the social aspect of it.

    3. I did a tech-related MS to shore up my tech skills in a tech-adjacent field, while 99% of my classmates were already doing the classwork as part of their 9-to-5 roles. IMO the best question to ask is if you anticipate earnestly using the degree’s knowledge in your job duties. The skills you gain from a fully in-classroom degree are still going to evaporate if you don’t use them consistently.

      1. I do! It’s a niche subject area that I work in; the degree will be a mix of theory/academic work and technical skills.

        I also have always worked for non-profits and am currently and temporarily in the private sector. I’d like to take advantage of tuition reimbursement while I have it because it’s not common in my field.

        While I have the ability to get a grad degree for minimal out of pocket expenses I’d like to do so. Even if it’s just “checking a box” (which I don’t think it is), having an advanced degree allows me to apply for positions at the next level up and makes me more competitive for positions at my current level.

        1. Then I would definitely go for it. It is possible to coast in an asynchronous program, but you get out what you put in. You sounds contentious and I have no doubt you will make the most of it.

    4. One of my staff tried a program like this for a master’s in data science and found it seriously underwhelming. Part of the problem was that it was a newer program that was not well planned and was clearly just a profit-making scheme for the university. I would try to get some honest opinions from current students and graduates, look at syllabi and course materials, review some completed capstone projects, etc. to gauge the quality.

      1. I know this program has been around, in some fashion, for at least a decade. I know of (but don’t actually know) a friend of a friend who did this program 10-15 years ago. I think the program was once in person or hybrid but it’s now only offered online. I wonder if that was a pandemic move, I’m not sure.

        I’ll try to find an alumni to talk to- I know of but don’t know myself a few grads who all have good jobs in my field in my city.

        I think I kind of side eye many online programs as money makers, but I know that isn’t universally true.

        My sister actually has an MBA from this university that was done 80% online due to Covid. Her classes were online but synchronous though (since it was an in person moved online).

        1. I have several comments. I got an asynchronous MBA from a “real” bricks and mortar school in the late 2000s. For me it was worth it and I’m still in touch with some professors and fellow students. I doubled my salary in the next four years so I wouldn’t look at 9k or even 15k as a barrier. Obviously the calculus changes if it is a for-profit school without a “real” campus but an online asynchronous degree is not always seen as lesser and it’s possible that “online” won’t appear on your transcript or diploma. Exceptions to online acceptance are rare – like CPA pre-reqs/classes in Texas where online and/or asynchronous classes aren’t accepted. I assume that that doesn’t apply to you.

          If you are trying to find alumni, have you tried a LinkedIn search? Or just reach out to those people that you’ve found – call them ask someone you both know to call them or email through LinkedIn. I’ve done that to find people who were alumnus of programs and schools and companies. And I’ve always replied to LinkedIn queries about my school. Also, have you called the school to ask them if they can give you names of alumni who are willing to talk to potential students? Some schools will do this for you.

          There are some programs that are asynchronous but also have in-person component: These allow you to do more of the standard networking that is a valuable part of a grad degree. Even if you had to travel to the in-person portion it might be worth it.

          1. Very helpful, thank you!

            Yes, it’s a “real” brick abc mortar university in my metro area that’s been around for nearly 200 years. It just happens that the program I’m interested in is now online only (which is funny since campus is only 5 miles from my apartment!)

            I’m honestly relieved ri hear you still have connections with professors and classmates years later; that was one of my top concerns about an online only asynchronous program. I also think it might not be too hard to set up meet ups with other local students. There’s no official on campus component, sadly, but there might be something informal.

            I will definitely do some more digging to find alumni to talk to. I know several of them work in my field in my city, so shouldn’t be hard to find even though I don’t know them personally.

          2. I’m in somewhat the same boat (I’m the one working on the CS degree above) – near the campus but studying online. You may end up with the best of both worlds… all of my instructors were more than happy to meet in real life or for me to sit in on an in person section (even if it wasn’t technically allowed by the university) when needed.
            If the university has an active subreddit, that’s another place to put out a “What do you think of this program?” post. My university’s sub gets one of these for my program every month or so.

    5. I think it depends on the subject of the degree. I did an ethics masters degree online and it allowed for much richer discourse as everyone had more time to fully develop arguments, bring relevant research to bear, and pull together threads of various people’s arguments in a way that would never happen in a live conversation. I highly valued my experience, but that doesn’t mean this works for each area of study.

    6. My master’s in data science was asynchronous. It was the only way I could pull it off. The caliber of coursework and discussion was pretty good. This was from a Top 50 university. It wasn’t as rigorous as my Ivy undergrad degree in science, but that would have been a tough bar to reach.

      1. That’s a helpful perspective, thanks. I have no issue with the caliber of the university itself (and my sister had a great experience there). It’s certainly not as good of a school as my undergrad, but it sounds like it’s a solid program and has a good alumni base where I live, which I think is more important than overall prestige.

  18. Do you always read the news in the morning before work? This is absolutely crazy because I work in a politics-adjacent field, but I don’t really check the news between say dinner and going to work the next day, but that’s meant that I for exa,ple didn’t know that Russia had invaded Ukraine until someone mentioned it in a morning meeting, hadn’t really read up on the Roe vs Wade leak today. I’m generally actually very well informed – just not before 10am!

    1. Not in politics, but the NY Times is the first thing I look at in the morning, before I get out of bed. I read for 10-15 minutes before I’m ready to actually get up.

    2. I usually check the news a little bit before going to bed and again in the morning when I wake up (on my phone in bed both times). At least scan the headlines, not usually a deep dive.

      1. I think that while I was working more squarely in politics I would hear all the news one might ever want to now during my work hours of 9am – 9pm minimum, so I did not want to check the news at all during my precious free time. Maybe I need to like skim the nytimes on the train nowadays

        1. is it affecting your ability to do your job well? Nobody needs to tell you about news overwhelm and the importance to disconnect. It’s worth a lot to preserve that!

    3. I scroll on social media and follow legitimate news outlets so I usually learn things pretty quickly.

    4. I try not to, I’m a political scientist but I find the firehose of news first thing pretty hard to take. I’ll normally listen to BBC radio 4 or Newscast while having my breakfast. I quit twitter for new year’s and thank goodness…

    6. I scroll Twitter a handful of times between leaving work and going to bed. My Twitter is for work purposes only, so I follow many news sources + names in my field. I also get news alerts as push notifications to my phone so I see every “breaking news” headline (though breaking news is now a very loose term).

      While I get ready in the morning I listen to NPR UpFirst (pretty much exactly as long as my getting ready routine). My walk to work is sometimes music and sometimes news podcasts. Once I get to work I read 3-4 newsletter emails and a few news websites and then am constantly checking headlines throughout the day.

      I work in government in a subfield that is impacted by current events.

    7. I don’t follow the news in the evening (unlike my parents who end every day by watching the 10pm news!) but usually have a look at the headlines in the morning. On gym days I automatically see the news round ups on the TVs which helps. But the biggest thing for my mental health has been not following the news in the evenings!

      1. Same! I try not to watch news after work, and especially in the 2 hours before bed, because it can keep me from sleeping.

        Morning routine: drink a big glass of water, turn on local cable news channel on low volume to get weather/ subway issues if I’m going to the office/ mix of national and NYC news, open my NYTimes app and go straight to the spelling bee game without looking at headlines and try to solve it, go to my browser and do the wordle and text my sister my score, and only then do I look at the news in my NYTimes app and on Twitter. It keeps me from having the fight or flight reaction to what’s going on the moment I’m up.

    9. In politics and yes. I tried to take a break from it for a week last year as part of a mindfulness experiment, and I was so far behind the ball by the time I logged in at 9 that my whole week compounded into a disaster. So yeah, all news all the time here. (When I go places outside DC and people want to talk politics with me…ugh, no, please – I need a break!)

    10. No, I can’t start my day like that. It is definitely a flaw of mine, but it’s a small step toward protecting my mental peace.

    11. A large part of my job is being up on current events so I have to stay on top of the news after hours.

      I use Twitter and Apple notifications to get news and I scroll through both 2-3 times between leaving work and going to bed. On the morning I scroll headlines before I even get out of bed and I get ready for work ahd commute listening to NPR.

      1. I would say the expectation that I answer my phone 24/7 and that I check email 2-3 times after work and 1-2 times before work is far more disruptive to my routine and impacts my mental health way more than my admittedly intense news habit

    13. My parents watch the local news every morning and they read the paper with breakfast. Then, they don’t see the news again until the next morning. They’ve been doing it this way their entire adult lives. They’re not the most tech savvy so push notifications on their phones, no online access to the paper they subscribe to, no social media.

      They didn’t know about the insurrection until like 7pm that night. I think if my sister hadn’t called and mentioned it, they wouldn’t have known until they turned on the news at 6am the next morning.

      This is one of the many reasons I’m a round the clock news consumer.

    14. I get the NY Times emails but if we’re being honest I’ve heard about nearly all breaking news stories in the last few years scrolling through Twitter in bed. I mean, I’ll confirm with a legitimate news source obviously but usually only after I see someone tweet about it.

  19. To me, the decision means I can no longer afford to say “I will never change this person’s mind” about access to reproductive healthcare. Now that Roe is over, our only hope is to educate and yes, to change people’s minds.

    Today we can all yell into the abyss, and I think that’s fair and warranted. But ultimately, we have to find a way to better educate the voting public about important issues. Too many people don’t understand what’s at stake. Yelling at them on the internet isn’t changing that, so we have to find a way that works. It’s literally our only hope.

    1. I hope this is one of the last gasps of the Baby Boomers. They ruined the environment, broke unions and thus corresponding wage growth and security, and have been generally forcing society back to some imagined Leave It To Beaver childhood of theirs.

      We live in a super red county (Confeder@te flags and Trump banners are a very common sight), and my husband and I frequently say to each other that we can’t wait for them all to die off. It’s cruel and awful to say, but I have so much more hope in the younger generations.

      2. The younger generation doesn’t remember women dying from coathangers or maybe not-dying from drinking Drano. This boomer does.

        Who do you think agitated for Roe to begin with???

        1. Yes! It was Baby Boomers who fought for so many of the rights we hold now.

          The dramatic difference on views related to abortion is by party affiliation rather than age or gender (which is not to say there is no difference in age – although people over 65 are marginally more likely to think abortion should be legal in all or most cases than people 50-64. This was the Republicans catering to their base, which shows up for primaries.

          Most Americans regardless of age are pro-choice. Unfortunately, most Americans don’t vote.

      3. I say that, too, but I’m not so sure these attitudes don’t exist in the younger generations, too.

        1. Yeah, I don’t see Gen Y and Z, raised on internet porn, video games, and online dating, and Millenials, who embraced abstinence culture, saving the day.

          2. millenials embraced abstinence culture? I missed that! Are you talking about Britney and Jessica? Do we need a #NotAllMillenials?

        2. I agree which is why I think we have to do everything we can to educate and change minds, even if it’s only the future generations’ minds. I know it feels hopeless but it’s literally our only hope. No one is coming to save us.

        3. Statistically, 18-29 year olds aren’t super different from older age groups on their view on abortion – namely that they’re close to evenly split on “legal in all cases” and “legal in some cases.” “Illegal in all cases” is around 18-20% of the population in most age groups. Gallup has data that breaks this down by age and also tracked how it has changed over time.

      4. I don’t think we can rely on the problem solving itself, or if it does it will take many generations. The people in positions of influence now give a leg up to those that they deem worthy, and as long as the next generation doesn’t really interrogate power structures and educate themselves, they will just be blind to systemic bias and think everything is fine.
        I was in a diversity and inclusion meeting just yesterday where multiple people thought that outreach to school kids is where we should focus our attention to increase representation of women in STEM. As if we haven’t been doing that for 30 years now with meager results.

      6. It’s dumb to lump all boomers into one category. They were the generation that did a lot of the protesting to bring attention to women’s rights and pro-choice. C’mon.

    2. The danger in people becoming more educated about this issue is that the science is clear a pre-born baby is … a baby. I’ve found this to be a significant obstacle in taking the next step and arguing that it should be subject to a violent, painful, and intentional killing.

      1. It’s a baby inside a person though. The law can’t get to the baby except through another person. I don’t think that the reach of the law should extend through my physical body!

      2. An embryo is not a baby. There’s a point at which it becomes a baby, and I think there’s room for debate about when that point is but it’s definitely not six weeks. And a fetus that is not viable for whatever reason (ectopic, genetic defect) is not going to become a living baby.

        1. so you support abortions for babies with down syndrome? only God can judge you, but you seem like a bad person.

          1. I support a legal right to abortion before viability for any reason because I think a fetus isn’t a person before viability and I don’t think it’s the government’s place to intervene in a decision that should be between a woman and her doctor. It’s not really any of your business, but personally I would not get an abortion just because the fetus had Down syndrome. I’m also not sure where you got Down syndrome from my comment, because I said “a fetus that is not viable whatever reason (ectopic, genetic defect) is not going to be come a living baby.” Fetuses with Down syndrome do not have a fatal genetic defect.

            Also wow, how offensive to presume I’m governed by your Christian beliefs and your version of G-d. My religious faith supports a right to abortion, especially in cases like ectopic pregnancy where the mother’s life is in danger. And I’m “a bad person” because I think the government shouldn’t be restricting women’s reproductive rights? Isn’t one of the major tenants of your religion “love thy neighbor”? Maybe work on that a little more, and worry a little less about women making decisions about their own bodies that have nothing to do with you. If you’re morally opposed to abortion, I 100% support your right to never have one. I promise I will never show up at your house with knitting needles and stab them up into your uterus, so please give me and other women the same courtesy.

      3. No, a “pre-born baby” is a political term. The medical term is a “zygote, embryo, or fetus,” depending on the gestational age. Maybe you’re thinking of the fact that the woman that “pre-born baby” is inside of is an actual human being with a right to determine the course of her own life, including her own healthcare decisions.

      4. Whichever source you learned that ‘science’ from, you should consider reading more widely.

      5. You think it is a baby at the moment the sperm hits the egg? How do you explain a blighted ovum?

      6. “violent, painful, and intentional killing.”

        This is propaganda and shows you to be not only uninformed, but also gullible. I realize this is a tall ask, but – be better than this.

  20. What do we think the impact of the abortion bans will be on the rate of intentional pregnancies, especially among women who already have a child? If I were desperate to become a mother for the first time I might be willing to risk my life by becoming pregnant without access to care for an ectopic pregnancy or miscarriage, but I sure as heck wouldn’t risk it for a second child. As mentioned above, the risks also seem a whole lot more concrete once you have been pregnant. Risks that seemed remote before my first pregnancy seemed a lot scarier afterwards.

    1. I don’t know, but I’m pretty terrified. I have a five-year-old son and then had an ectopic a few months ago (despite IUD and condom). I literally would have died under the laws that inevitably will go in to place where I live this summer. I have sole custody of my five year old, and I guess he’d end up in the system? Such a “pro-life” outcome.

      1. you’re in Texas, right? I am too. There is no exception for threat to mother’s life? this whole thing makes me sick.

        1. And what is even more insane is that there is zero chance an ectopic pregnancy will ever result in a baby.

          1. Right, how is it pro-life to force a woman to carry a bunch of cells that can never be a human child but could kill her in the process? Insanity.

          2. But it also has a chilling effect, right? If the language in the bill is at all unclear, doctors will be reluctant to perform necessary medical care because they don’t want to lose their license or, worse, go to jail. The bill doesn’t have to say NO ABORTIONS FOR ECTOPIC PREGNANCIES to cause some women to die unnecessarily from ectopic pregnancies.

    2. If I wanted a kid but I knew I would be forced to give birth to a child with severe birth defects I would seriously question getting pregnant.

      1. My heart breaks for what is about to happen to poor women and babies if this passes. God knows the states that are gearing up to ban ASAP aren’t exactly going to teach sex ed, offer birth control, or increase SNAP/WIC/medicare funding for all of these newly unwanted children women are forced to incubate.

    3. I 100% would not get pregnant if I lived in a red state. I’m old enough that my friends who have recently had babies are all geriatric pregnanices, and yes, there have been some heartbreaking decisions made or just discussed w/r/t fetal testing, decisions about multiple embryos, all the stuff that happens as you age or as you deal with multiples. I cannot imagine going through that knowing I had no choice in reduction, or would not recieve adequate care for a miscarriage/ectopic pregnance/severly disabled child who might not survive delivery.

    4. Among women with reliable access to contraception, the trend is already toward only one or two kids. So I think it will have a negligible impact in our birth rates. Overall this will obviously lead to an increase in birth rates, especially among lower income women.

    5. And, more directly on point, my partner is getting a vasectomy. So… lower intentional pregnancy rate, I guess, in my case.

    6. I’m in a red state. We were 99% sure we were one and done, so our decision doesn’t have a huge impact on societal birth rates, but I told my husband to book his vasectomy ASAP. I’m affluent and have the means to travel for an abortion if I wanted one, but with ectopic pregnancies sometimes you need emergency care and I can’t risk leaving my child motherless.

    7. Three kids is the new two kids in my area. A few friends who I know were debating having a third in the next couple years have decided today that they won’t. DH and I may the same decision. Our family is complete with 2. I don’t want to go down the road of not being able to access appropriate healthcare if my health is endangered. More important to be there for the kids I have vs give them an additional sibling. I think a lot of women who are 35+ who are on the fence about having a second, third or fourth kid, will be less inclined to do so now. Just adds another factor to the ‘con’ column when weighing the decision.

      1. This is my anecdotal experience, as well. Although yesterday’s leak solidified it, we’ve suspected it was coming since the (November?) oral arguments and have discussed accordingly in our friend groups. The childcare and school crisis don’t help either, of course.

    8. I think it will have zero impact or a negligible one given that there is no evidence that states with limited clinic access have lower rates of intentional pregnancy.

      1. Intentional pregnancy isn’t directly related to abortion. You can intend to get pregnant and still need an abortion. See for example the story posted on the Moms page today.

        1. Right, but the post above is asking whether restrictions on abortion lead to more women pursuing intentional pregnancy, presumably due to risk that they might need an abortion for medical reasons during that intended pregnancy. We have states that have significantly reduced abortion access by law or where access to clinics is super limited, and we don’t have evidence that those states have lower birth rates. While there’s not a perfect correlation between rate of intended pregnancy and rate of live birth, at the very least we can say that there doesn’t seem to be a widespread movement of women avoiding pregnancies they would have otherwise wanted due to the lack of abortion care.

          1. I don’t think that assumption holds when abortion access is much more restricted due to Roe v Wade being overturned. As an example, I wouldn’t want to share my need for an abortion, even if medically necessary to save my life with my very religious family members. Not such an issue if I just need drive 3 hours to the next major city to access care, a much bigger issue if I need to fly out of state or if I have to worry about being prosecuted when I return. I think this decision is going to have a much bigger chilling effect on intentional second, third and fourth pregnancies than the Republicans realize. People will want to still have at least one kid, but how many women in purple or red states will want to risk their lives for a second, third or fourth kid? It’s very different compared to a patchwork of state by state restrictions that we have seen until now.

      2. This question is not about access to an abortion clinic, though. It’s about access to care for an ectopic pregnancy or a miscarriage, which is currently available through nearly all non-Catholic hospitals.

  21. Ugh you guys, I am in the worst mood today. I’m stressed out and overwhelmed at work so I keep snapping at people and just do NOT want to deal with the tiny little things that people keep needing. I just want to turn my phones off, shut my office door and have everyone just leave me alone. Unfortunately I work in an office with an open door culture and this would not be viewed well.

    Ughhhhhhh I wish I could just retire

    1. Right there with you, friend. I just had a meltdown in my kitchen when I realized my husband took the roasted veggies I was planning on having for lunch. Like, I WFH, I have access to literally all the other food and yet this discovery led to me actually crying.

      So, it’s a hard day.

  22. Someone on Twitter posted last night “Remember where you were when you heard this news.” For me, that will always be hunched over a three-pack of pregnancy tests, the first of which had failed, trying to decide whether to take a second one or wait until the morning, while intermittently kicking myself for being shy about taking the giant plastic theft-protection box holding Plan B to the CVS register, researching mail-order medical abortion, and pricing flights to NYC because my last period was more than six weeks ago and I wasn’t sure I could get a surgical abortion this “late” in my state. plus I don’t want to have to ask someone to accompany me to an appointment but I know my NYC friend would help in a pinch if I have to travel.

    2. if anyone needs to come to the Bay Area to access care, I will pick you up from the airport and you can use my guest room. I know this doesn’t mean all that much, but still.

    3. We all need to support each other now and so I hope you, and anyone else who needs help, will reach out for help vs. trying to figure things out on their own. Abortion is and will remain legal in my state so if anyone needs help – now, or in the future – please post a burner email and I will help however I can, with information, logistics, transportation, hand-holding, etc. Anonymous, please get that test done and then reach out to your friend, or reach out here, if you need help. There is no shame in needing help through this! We all have to pull together for each other.

    4. Abortion is still legal TODAY. Go to abortionfinder.org if you need to find care. It lists locations and can help you understand what the legal requirements may be. YOU STILL HAVE OPTIONS.

      1. Thank you. Yes, I know. At the time, I did not know that the 6-week law that passed in my state has been stayed by court order and I was unclear about what options I might have at home. For me, this is more likely to be the unfortunate coincidence of my first missed period of perimenopause and my first s3xual encounter in over a decade than it is to be a dangerous geriatric pregnancy. But you don’t know until you know. And the impact of the news of this coming court decision at that very moment, when I was already feeling the punishing consequence of one choice made in a moment, a choice that had actually felt good at the time but came with a heavy burden that only women bear, was magnified tenfold. While I am lucky to know that I still have choices and the means to exercise them, the sense that my personhood can be minimized with a few strokes of a pen feels devastating, and the confluence of events brought the meaning of this decision for others into stark relief for me.

  23. How do I support my daughter? (I’m one of the dreaded boomers but was still in middle school when Roe was decided so I was privileged to have choice my entire reproductive life. I did have a troubled pregnancy where the potential diagnosis was delivering a brain dead baby and I was fully prepared to have the abortion but luck was with me. My daughter is freaking out, in grad school in a purple state and afraid of having an ectopic pregnancy and also the cascading fears of losing the right to vote, own property and be her own person, not the property of a man. While I think the Handmaid’s Tale fears are overblown (she’s white, has family support and money and California is close), it is true that it is different for me than it is for her. I can’t just tell her to donate, vote and demonstrate and it will be ok. We already agreed to volunteer at a clinic across state lines that says it is already seeing an increase of people crossing the state line Any advice? I may have to repost this on the afternoon or morning thread…

    1. Honestly listen to her fears and validate that she has a right to feel that way. If she asks what she can do, she can campaign, protest, donate to causes, work with groups that provide escorts at abortion clinics.

      But for now, her feelings are raw. People of her generation are facing a lot of existential threats right now, and this is not the least of them.

    2. Support her in making a personal plan of action – I am super pro-choice from a legal perspective but on a personal level I knew I would never terminate unless my life was at risk. Prior to getting married (for me, insert whatever her personal comfort zone would be), I did not have sex unless we were using at least two methods of birth control. Usually pill and condoms. Knowing that one method could fail and I would still stand an excellent chance of not being pregnant was huge. I recognize that I was lucky to never have been a victim of s.a. and that both hormonal contraception and iuds were options for me. It sounds like she also knows how to access care if she needs it which is important. Maybe set aside funds so that she could access if needed without asking you – like small savings account or something.

      2. Yes, she has an IUD and has money of her own and a strong circle of family and friends. But it’s more that she could be raped, birth control could fail, no birth control is perfect etc., or even have an ectopic rupture as an emergency in a purple state without time to get to a blue state: it’s conceivable that she might loose her life from an ectopic. But it’s also a spiraling anxiety that is not rooted in fact but fear that (most) men want women to be second class citizens. And unfortunately many do and they have some women who agree or don’t object and those men are raising a new generation of men who feel that way.

        It is raw now and I’m not discounting her fears. We had already agreed last week to volunteer and already donate – it’s just the fear that that won’t be enough. Yes, she’s seeing a counselor and she is a successful person in her personal life.

        1. When I have spiraling anxiety, it’s not helpful for me to have people tell me statistics or to relax or anything like that. I’m not saying you were doing that. What helps me most is someone listening to me and acknowledging things are hard right now and maybe asking me how they can help me feel better. Sometimes I want a hug, sometimes to vent, sometimes cute puppy videos.

        2. I don’t think she is far off worrying that most men want women to be second-class citizens. Time and time again, events show that to be true. We were all just fooling ourselves that the nation had become more egalitarian. 2016 began to reveal the truth.

          1. Pointing out once again that there is not much of a gender divide on abortion. Men and women are almost equally likely to be pro-choice.

            What is playing out right now is horrible but blaming men or Baby Boomers as a group is counterproductive. And it plays right into the hands of right-wingers. Blame politicians who are so eager to win their primaries that they are catering to their base. And encourage people who are pr-choice to show up and vote even if none of the candidates is perfect because an imperfect pro-choice, pro-LGBT rights candidate is better than anyone on the other side.

      2. Yes, she is going to settle in California – her sibling and cousins are there. It’s just until she finishes her doctorate and can be in California in 2024.

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