Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: 3/4 Sleeve Knit Scoopneck Knot Dress

374 Comments

1. The post the other day on Paul Weiss’s Very white very male partnership class had me nodding along with everyone – sad but not surprised by it. Made me curious, if you were in a position of power at a big law firm and had the political capital to actually push a diversity initiative, what would you do? I think general consensus is the diversity programs firms have right now are doing a pretty terrible job so what would you change if you could? What do you think would actually result in more diversity at the partner level?

   1. At my firm I plan to push recruiting lateral diverse partners – I think that will be more possible than hiring diverse associates (we are top-heavy and don’t hire many associates anyway).

   2. I think that at a big law firm, it would (somehow) have to be run more like a big company is run. I don’t know if this is possible at a law firm. Looking only at getting more women to the top, based on what I see from women who work at the big banks, there just seems to be more support for women. Encouragement to attend management training conferences, the ability to really have a flexible schedule (see the thread yesterday about how an 80%/part time schedule at a law firm doesn’t really work), the ability to actually be able to “lean out” for a period of time after you become a mother… all of these things, to me, say that the company is telling women “You there – you can do this and we are supporting you” (the old “actions speak louder than words” way of doing things). And then people believe it and they set this as their goal and they achieve these high up management positions, etc. Not banks (at least, anymore), but other large companies offer onsite day care (which would be a huge perk to again make women feel like they are supported). Also, at these companies, people seem to be cross trained so that they can actually have coverage when they are out on vacation or taking a personal day. I know it’s not a perfect system and there are women on the trading floors who maybe don’t get this support (or are discouraged from taking advantage of these opportunities) and there are women in high up management roles at the banks who have vacations ruined due to work, but there simply seems to be more support to get them to the high up levels.

      I’m a BigLaw associate and sure I could go to a women in law conference or seminar or something, but that isn’t billing hours for the firm, that isn’t generating business for the firm. Sure I could work an 80% schedule, but what about when a deal goes off the rails and I need to work straight through the night and through a vacation? What client is going to pay to cross train associates so that there is actual coverage when someone goes on a vacation? Part of law, and big law perhaps more so than other fields, is being specialized, which makes it very hard to cross train and have coverage.

      1. I work at a big company that likes to tout all of our diversity initiatives and I can assure you that the management in the BU I work in is all white men. It’s incredibly frustrating and maddening.

   3. Data collection and accountability are critical, IMO. I would like to see firms do some very serious number-crunching on when diverse associates leave, what their path through the firm looked like, what their backgrounds are, etc. Real analysis on what the career path looks like, who stays and who goes, where they go, etc. We need data because otherwise when a diverse associate (or any associate) leaves, people explain it away as an individual case.

      I would also like to see practice group leadership take direct responsibility for the success of diverse associates and their career path. This should include regular monitoring of those associates’ hours, the quality of those hours (are they doing doc review when a peer is doing more substantive work?), the career development opportunities they’re offered, what partners they’re working with, etc. We know from research that people tend to invest less in diverse associates, not give them the same opportunities, etc. The result is that then their experience level falls behind that of their peers, so over time the idea that they’re less competent becomes self-reinforcing. The only way to combat that is regular tracking and asking tough questions of partners about who they staff and why, especially in the early years of an associate’s career. I am actually a fan of formal work assignment systems for the first 1-2 years in order to enable managing that.

      These are all things I have advocated for within my firm and most of them are things we have recently started doing because of attrition amongst diverse associates.

      1. Not the OP, but this is really helpful. Thank you.

   4. I am sharing this under the cloak of anonymity- but female leaders often get out in really difficult management situations (like if the job is perfect, it’s going to a white guy, not one of us), and I feel like we are “allowed” less chances to screw up and try new things- so no under this situation, I think it’s hard to push for diversity initiatives (at least in my experience). I’ve nocticed this fornother women leaders too- we seem to be more risk adverse.

      1. Or they get set up to fail. A competent woman was hired into a position and handed a morass of problems, for which she was not given the resources to fix. She ended up “quitting” and they never filled the role again.

      2. Right, that’s exactly what I mean- and in this kind of situation, it’s hard to initiate and fight for change.

      3. Freakonomics or Corporate Homies had a great podcast episode about this–how when a company is about to fail or when there are major problems do women get hired to be the CEO, because often a bunch of men will have passed on the job and then a women will take it because it’s the opportunity to BE a CEO, and then it creates all of these headlines about women CEOs manning the ship as it files bankruptcy or whatever.

   5. Equal pay for equal work and origination.
      Proportional pay for proportional work (i.e. actually 80% pay for 80% work, not the prevalent 50% or 65% pay for 80% work).
      Equal pay for equal work and origination.
      Meaningful support for all parents in terms of parental leave, flexibility and backup child care and eliminating punishment for people who use it.
      Equal pay for equal work and origination.
      Recruiting outside of T14 or T25 schools and looking below the top 10% of those classes.
      Equal pay for equal work and origination.
      Education for the partners that handle recruiting, training and mentoring to make them understand that diversity is an actual mindset and commitment and not just something to pay lip service to twice year.

      Oh, and the thing that will make the biggest change? Boomers dying or retiring. Increasing diversity is an uphill battle in an office full of dudes who used to think it was entertaining to chase their secretaries around their desks and who never saw anyone who wasn’t white other than the waitstaff at their clubs.

   6. beyond mentoring and creating opportunities:
      -treat compliance with anti-discrimination laws as super important (see: MoFo pregnancy discrimination lawsuit). If senior management cares a great deal and is willing to put partner comp (and discipline) on the line, I think we could see some more diversity at the top.
      -be careful with signaling. every female associate sees the rockstar female partner having to deal with a lot of crap while a marginally competent male partner gets lots of opportunity and promotion. the solution isn’t to tell the rockstar woman to hide the issues, it’s to give her the opportunities.
      -let people chose to have lives outside of the firm and still progress. For many, it’s not worth it to work so much to maybe make partner and then, as partner, have to continue to to work so much and deal with more discrimination. The calculation might be different if you can at least have a robust life outside of the firm.

   7. Thanks all! Would your suggestions change if you were a white male? Trying to brainstorm suggestions to give to a partner who appears to genuinely care about this issue and asked what would make a difference. For my own two cents, I said identifying women/minority attorneys early who show promise and focus intense mentoring efforts there would go a long way. In my experience it seems like even the objectively bad male associates get given good opportunities and career advice. Whereas women/minority attorneys have to be exceptional substantively and also manage to figure out office politics (who to work for, what events to attend, what things are a waste of time) to make it.

      1. I think 1 thing that makes a really big difference (not necessarily for poc, but for male vs female ratio) is having generous bonding leave policies for both men and women, and then encouraging both men & women to take it. This is how it is in CA generally, and I think it makes a huge difference in gender equality- both at work and at home.

      2. I think you have to somehow encourage opportunities that promote leadership skills and training and get you on the right path to being a leader BUT you can’t be penalized for taking those opportunities. For example, I’m the posted from above who sees women at the big banks in the city where I live being encouraged to attend leadership conferences and trainings. However, due to their business and the work they do, they don’t have to “make up” the billable hours. So, you need to include those associates on the business development lunches, attend industry conferences, encourage them to go after opportunities, and that time (in my opinion) needs to be just as important and shown to be just as valuable as time spent doing the actual billable work. (Within reason, I’m not advocating for someone to get a $50,000 bonus and a $20,000 raise simply because they billed 1600 hours and did 400 hour of business development as a third year associate).

         I don’t know how to make this happen in law, but I don’t know anyone who is making partner or even encourage to apply for partner when they aren’t making the billable/collections targets. So, all of the non-billable activities that might contribute to leadership training or business development or anything like this (whatever the firm deems it wants in a “leader/partner”) needs to be treated equally to hitting billable targets. This is an attitude that needs to come from the top.

   8. Let’s add to that having enough manpower to cover parental leaves. What’s really frustrating is when men have the intention of taking a full parental leave but ultimately decide that work needs them more than the new human they created, because there is no one to cover their work while they’re out. Women don’t have this choice, which perpetuates the broken culture. And often only other women are willing to step up and cover maternity leaves, which frames the whole issue as a struggle in the women’s corner and for them to self-manage. I’ve seen this happen so many times at my company. We have parental leave for all caretakers on paper but simply don’t staff like it exists.

      1. I’ve seen covering maternity leave create so many terrible work relationships between women (especially the women who are single and partners have actually told them, “Well, you don’t have anyone to go home to because you are single and childless, you can cover married female lawyer’s leave on top of your own work.” And then because they’re working 14 hour days for 4 months, the work product starts to suffer.

   9. IANAL, but for about 2 years I have been at a unicorn job with very diverse leadership. I think it is not a coincidence that organizational culture is very parent-friendly–every position I know of has paid time off, and enough support coverage from other people, to take time off for kids home sick, school award events, sports games, etc. And our compensation isn’t great (fair, but not great) but it does include fully paid health insurance.

      1. I think you bring up so many key points – management is saying, through actions of having enough people to cover, that we value you as a person, which includes your life outside of this office.

   10. Extra formal mentoring is important, even if it’s a little forced. I’m an ex associate at PW. For whatever reason, even though I was a minority female associate, I did not have a formal partner mentor like everyone else. When I reached out and asked the woman partner in charge of the program, her response was too bad, next year. Well, I left before that happened.

       Training on certain behavior is also important. It took me a year of clerking with a very bro-y type of co-clerk to learn the things that successful white associates did to get mentoring. He would drop by every morning to talk sports or politics with the judge, whereas I just put my head down and worked. Overtime, I learned to have the courage to drop by partners’ offices to update them and then to chit chat about their interests. This has been tremendously helpful to me in forging relationships with partners. It’s something no one would have taught me how to do, and I wish I had learned it earlier.

2. Yay Kat! I love Land’s End stuff especially this one, more important, this is the Frugal Friday b/f the Atlanta Superbowl Sunday! Rosa buys alot of stuff for her family on Land’s End, and Dad wears Land’s End stuff too!

   This weekend, Rosa invited me and Myrna to come up tomorrow, celebrate Groundhog’s day with the kids, and stay Sunday for the Superbowl and again into Monday b/c the Superbowl will end very late, and I did not want to go back to the City with all of the drunks on the road. Myrna said she would also take off on Monday and we can do stuff up in Weschester –mabye go to a museum or something or see her relatives in Stanford.

   I decided NOT to try and meet guys this year on Superbowl day b/c they are not interested in doing more then drinking and bragging about how they were such big football players in highschool or college. I laugh to myself b/c I know they think I beleive them when it is so impossible to keep from laughing! I am not as dumb as they think, b/c I did not ever agree to go home with them after the game. Can you imagine a drunk slob pretending to be Tom Brady? All they can do is slobber and I am so over wakeing up in some drunk’s smelly bed and leaving while he is snoring after satisfying no one other then himself that night. FOOEY! This year, I will remain fresh and clean and will do things around Weschester with Myrna and my family! YAY!!

3. Anyone tried the lands end dresses lately? I bought a couple a few years ago and returned as they were frumpy and fabric was low quality….

   1. I bought some a few months ago and returned due to the frump factor.

   2. Yes. I have 10-15 of them in a mix of the suiting and ponte fabrics from 2015-present. They hold up well, the ponte ones are made of a nice thick fabric and wash well, an they are versatile. However, if you want a slightly above the knee to knee length do know that they run on the shorter side. I believe talls are available in many of their styles.

   3. I think they can be frumpy if not styled creatively. It’s all in what you wear it with.

   4. Just a heads up- because sears is going out of business I had a really hard time returning some lands end boots I bought (I eventually was able to, but it took a few tries in finding a sears accepting returns).

   5. The quality seems to be much lower than it was even from a year or so ago. I bought a couple of their sheath dresses which typically wear like iron with little to no fading or pilling. The print dress faded in one wash (gentle laid flat to dry) and the other dress was thinner fabric that didn’t hold it’s shape. I was very disappointed and had to scratch it off my list of dependable lower price vendor.

   6. I have not been pleased with their fabric over the past year and ultimately returned everything I purchased.

   7. Since the Gloria Steinem PR debacle, it seems like they’ve basically quit trying to be cute and fashionable at all. Seems like they’ve gone full Midwest grandma lately.

4. I have a work conference that I have to go to with kids (and kids aren’t supposed to go, but my direct boss understands the family perfect storm and is OK with it). My kids are older (9/11) and the hotel is a resort in a place that the kids should be happy visiting. There are hotel kid activities for part of the day and my plan is to use one of the nanny services on the hotel’s list for the rest of the day / early evening (to go to the pool/lazy river, maybe a tennis lesson with the pro, there is also a movie theater that is walkable to the site). It is in the US (so no language barrier-safety-transportation issues if going slightly offsite).

   If you have done this, what are issues / challenges to think through? The 3-day nanny we use would ideally make sure that they don’t wander off / get kidnapped / get fed (and maybe be a swimmer, but my kids are very tall and can swim).

   1. Sounds like you’ve managed a difficult situation quite well.

   2. Did this at a US resort once when my child was 6 and it worked well. It was only for one day. My child was in the “kid’s club”all day where she had a ball. She had a resort-recommended sitter afterwards. I handled the hand-off. I did not have them go off-site and the sitter did not put her to bed. There was plenty to do at the resort. They had dinner at one of the kid-friendlier restaurants, walked along the beach, played games on the resort lawn and in the lobby areas, etc. Because mine was littler than yours are and there was only 1 of her, I had the “no hotel room” rule in place. I wanted them in public spaces for my own personal paranoia comfort.

   3. I bring my 3yo to conferences (my husband or mom join too) and I’ve never had any issues. Just let them know you will be working during work hrs. It’s really not that different from home :) (except I sneak snacks back to my husband lol).

   4. At your kids’ ages the only things I’d add are do they have electronic devices and if so do they have a policy for them (from you, for the nanny) and do they have homework or other things to do, read, etc.
      Other than that yeah I wouldn’t really care too much – here kids and nanny, please don’t do anything terrible while I’m at work, sorry this sucks and I’ll make it up to you with fun times later, right?
      I mean, no worries!

      1. That’s my thought.

         If they were in our city, the best I can do that week is an indoor 8-6 warehouse (rare outdoor playtime, vile packed lunch that my husband will attempt). They’ve gone before and hate it and I have hated having to make them go. There is a better camp, but it is not compatible with husband’s work schedule (hospital, so can’t bring the kids there or WFH or leave early).

         At least this way they’d be at a resort, playing more, ordering ice cream. Not ideal, but trading up.

         1. This sounds just perfect! You are a working mom and you have to work. How is it NOT ideal for kids to have a fun vacay while you are working? You can kiss them good night and see them every morning and they’re going to be having the time of their life while you are listening to (hopefully not boring) speakers and rocking your work life.
            I’d make sure the nanny is a swimmer – or at least the service knows that you’re wanting the kids to swim – as you might need to sign a special waiver for that. Don’t give this another thought – these may be some of the most fun memories they have. Rock on, Mummy.

         2. Another option at home might be a short-term nanny from an agency. We have done this in the past to avoid the warehouse.

   5. Will you have the same nanny throughout? How flexible are your kids with these sorts of things? I have two daughters– the 8 year old would love this arrangement, and the 11 year old would be very anxious about it. Is it feasible financially/logistically to bring a sitter with you so the kids could have continuity and some downtime? If your kids are more extroverted than my older daughter, this trip sounds fabulous!

5. I am 11 weeks pregnant with my first child. I have been on the hunt for maternity clothes that I will be able to wear to work, but I having difficulty finding options. My main problem is that I am a cusp size (depending on brand and style a 16-18 or 14W-18W) and apple body shape. I am 5’8″, with long legs in comparison to torso, and my pre-pregancy weight is 225. I have only gained 1-2 lbs so far. I work in a business formal office where I need a suit or suit equivalent at least 60% of my work days. Due to my body shape and height, the majority of the time I prefer suiting dresses or skirt suits. I understand the limited availability of work maternity wear and am willing to wear dresses with open blazers and pants and maternity tops with open blazers. However, I want to maintain a certain level of formality throughout my pregnancy.

   The items that I am struggling most to find are pants and dresses. Length of both is typically an issue pre-pregnancy, so I expect that to continue to be a challenge. On top of this, I prefer to wear tights and nylons and knee highs all of the time. I have been doing a lot of browsing online of tights and nylons, and I’m not finding many options. I have tried Motherhood Maternity’s tights in their largest regular size, and I can tell that they will likely be pushing it to survive through the cold weather (into April) in my area. I know that Assets by Sarah Blakely supposedly carries up to a Size F, but I can’t find anything larger than a Size D.

   I have read many of the articles on this site and others about maternity for work wear, but I still feel like I’m striking out majorly. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

   1. Have you tried Gap maternity or Old Navy maternity? I’m 5’10” and found the length on many items to work for me.

   2. Hi, I am pretty much your same size, and I’m 14 weeks along now. I’ve been getting by with J Crew Factory in a size up from my normal so far, and have bought maternity jeans from Gap. I’m planning to buy some LOFT maternity pants (if the size 18 fits, which I haven’t tried yet). Tights have been a tough one for me too — I got a regular pair of Spanx on Amazon in size F that work for now, but haven’t found maternity tights big enough yet. I’m hoping to be able to wear my normal blazers open the whole way through, as I haven’t seen any good maternity blazers in size 18+.

      1. Super late, but maybe you’ll check back. Have you looked at Destination Maternity? They carry plus sizes and workwear. Also, check A Pea in the Pod, esp. for dresses and jackets. It may be size limited, but if so, you might be able to search your way to plus sizes among the brands they carry.

   3. What about thigh-high socks instead of tights? You can find quite a few on sockdreams.com, and they have wider sizes in case that’s an issue for you. Add a warm slip or maybe maternity shorts for extra warmth.

      1. Thigh highs may just be the life-saver you’re looking for! I used to work for a very conservative company. Bare legs in summer were an absolute no-no, but our offices were in a very old building with an a/c system that struggled when it was 70 degrees out. Flash forward to a very hot, humid summer and the idea of wearing hose all day in an office that was all but stifling was NOT my idea of fun. Thigh highs to the rescue! They worked! They were a bit too thigh-high for me, considering I’m only 5′, but you can try different brands to see what works best for you. And the best part, when you get a run, you don’t don’t have to toss the whole pair. Save the other leg as a spare until you get another run!

         1. Ooh I can never get those to stay up. Your mileage may vary depending on the shape of your legs.

            1. Garters?

            2. I’m apple shaped and garters don’t work on me, unless attached to a full like bustier thing with straps over my shoulders. I have pretty straight hips from my waist so the tension on the garter straps just pulls the belt down.

   4. Gap has decent maternity dresss and I feel like they run longish for normal size clothing. They don’t have talls,but the have some L’s in bottoms. I think Long Tall Sally carries maternity also.

   5. I understand your pain! I went through this last year – I felt like no store understood that professional women over size large get pregnant. I got great plus size maternity tights at Target last winter, but they look to have discontinued them, which is a shame. I’ve heard people recommend thigh-highs for pregnancy, but I didn’t use them.
      I ended up just leaning in to the business casual side of my office and wearing a mix of Motherhood Maternity and Old Navy, because they carried XL (although it looks like a Pea in the Pod has gotten a little better). If I was going to look meh anyway, at least I wasn’t going to spend tons of money to do so. Nobody said anything – people hold pregnant women to a lower standard for clothes, and I took whatever breaks I could get.

   6. I had similar issues. What I ended up doing was buying non-maternity pants at an outlet and having someone I found on Etsy add a maternity band to them.

   7. I am cusp-sized, but short and really liked Spanx maternity tights.

   8. I’m not the same size, so YMMV, but I had an awful time finding maternity work pants. I’m 5’10” and ended up returning everything except a basic pair of black pants from Loft. Even with those, I have to wear flats and feel like they’re about an inch shorter than I’d like. My strategy has been to stick to maternity dresses with a regular blazer open. (The maternity dresses are more casual – stretchy/ponte material, the tailored ones only fit me for like a week). My favorite maternity tights are berkshire, which looks like they may come in plus size.

   9. I am told that a decent option for at least the first and second trimesters might be Talbot’s knit or ponte dresses or shifts in the larger women’s sizes (up to 24). Otherwise, maybe the larger sizes in Universal Standard?

   10. Very late to this and hope you see it. In my experience Berkshire makes the best maternity hose. I was similar in size to you while pregnant and also tall and long in the leg. I loved my Berkshire tights and hated to go back to non maternity if I’m being honest.

   11. I wore those lands end ponte dresses with a blazer until I was like 32 weeks. I think they come in plus but not sure. I bought a few in a size up. They come in tall. I also managed to hide my pregnancy for quite some time with this look plus a scarf. Towards the end I bought a couple basic black stretchy dresses from old navy maternity and wore long sweaters. I could never find maternity pants that worked for me as a tall lady so just lived in dresses and maternity leggings from old navy with boots (winter pregnancy).

   12. I’m the same size as you and maternity clothes were definitely a challenge. I bought black maternity pants from Gap and Old Navy and paired then with non-maternity plus size blouses in the next size up and my usual blazers. I also wore plus size LE ponte sheath dresses in the next size up with blazers a lot, often dressed up with a silk scarf or statement necklace. For formal events, I got 2 Talbots seasonless wool sheath dresses in the next size up and had the bodices tailored down and left the waist/hip area roomy and they fit me well into the 8th month of my pregnancy. I paired them with matching seasonless wool blazers and maternity pantyhose from Thyme Maternity (Canadian) and Target. I wore the same pantyhose my whole pregnancy – I didn’t have to size up.

   13. I am shorter than you, but also cusp sized and just had my first. Anecdotally, larger women tend to show less and “pop” later (definitely my experience) so try regular clothes in a larger size or more forgiving style. The Land’s End ponte dress sounds perfect and I would look for regular plus size tights (probably also not easy to find, but easier than tall plus size maternity.) This is not quite the formality level you’re going for, but I have non-maternity sweater dresses I was able to wear for the duration. Maybe a knit dress in a heavy knit in a trapeze style, buy in a couple colors and wear with your regular open blazers. Maternity clothes all seem to be cut like HELLO I’M SUPER PREGNANT and regular clothes will help you fly under the radar more too, which is nice at work. Congratulations!

       On a different note, one source for plus size maternity is Pink Blush. Most of their stuff is more informal but you might be able to get some good basics.

6. I saw Cory Booker announced he’s running for president. I believe that makes 9 or 10 in the Democratic field already.

   Those of you who are Democrats, do you have any favorites? Do you get involved at this stage in the game or wait until the election gets closer? I’m already seeing infighting among my (admittedly very engaged, passionate) friends about the different candidates.

   I’m partly excited about the prospect of fresh leaders and partly annoyed that everyone is campaigning almost two years early. Really wish we had some limits on campaigning time like other countries because it can get to be too long of a campaign season.

   1. I’m really excited about Booker and Harris. I think they’re currently my favorites, but I will keep watching the news and that could (read: will) change by the time the primaries come around next year (!!).
      Definitely agree that the campaigns are too long. Democrats are definitely eager to get Trump out so I get it, but still.

      1. I am already tired of hearing Gilibrand.

         And I think maybe Warren should not video herself so much.

         I am waiting for someone electable to jump in — I am already cringing at some potential matchups for P and VP, so really wary about all of this now.

      2. I’m not voting for a closeted gay man. Nope

         1. Don’t feed the troll.

         2. I guess you’ll never know, will you?!

         3. lolllllllllllll what why

      3. Not excited about Harris. As a south asian with many Sikh friends, I haven’t forgotten her role as AG in keeping an observant Sikh man from working as a prison guard. There other candidate who are good in the areas where she is good who don’t have that track record.

         1. Agreed – a lot of what she did as an AG troubles me from a criminal law perspective/civil rights perspective and I’m staying skeptical of her until I see her address that in a way that satisfies me.

   2. I like Joe Biden or Sherrod Brown. I like the idea of a Kamala Harris or Kirsten Gillebrand, but am not sure that either can get the votes in a general election. Ultimately, being electable matters more to me than strict agreement with my own personal views. I’m a ruthless pragmatist in that regard.

      I hope Bernie Sanders stays well away. His campaign uses the same misogyny that motivates Trump supporters, just for different ends.

      1. You think joe Biden is more electable and inspiring than kamila Harris? No wayyyyyyy!

         1. In the states that will matter for the electoral college, yes. And I don’t particularly need inspiring in 2020, I just need “certain to beat Trump.”

         2. Doesn’t he have some dirt in his closet — like Uncle Joe gets handsy sometimes? His running can’t be serious — I think he was tolerated before but in an era of MeToo he can’t turn out the vote and trump wins.

            1. I think it’s very known that he’s very touchy feely with everyone, male and female. Some people may find it creepy, but I don’t think it’s ‘dirt in the closet’ because it’s so obvious he’s a touchy guy.

            2. Ugh — that is not OK handsy Uncle Joe!

            3. What 10:58 Anon said. His main obstacle, IMO, is how he handled the Anita Hill – Clarence Thomas hearings, which was awful. He’s going to have to confront that and deal with it to be successful.

         3. Electable is very different than inspiring. Based on the unfortunate beliefs of this country against women and people of color, especially a strong woman like Kamala, against a smart likeable white man? Yeah I’d rather go for the one most likely to oust the current.

         4. I’m not looking to vote for someone who inspires me. I’m looking for someone who can get the votes to unseat Trump. Like it or not, that means appealing/pulling away a bunch of relatively conservative white dudes. Being idealistic isn’t going to win this election, IMO.

            1. +1

            2. To counter, what we really have to do is appeal to and pull away a bunch of educated white women who voted for Trump last time. I don’t think conservative white dudes are really the swing votes that can get us out of this; rather, it’s the women who voted Trump and now are embarrassed about it. And I think they’d rather vote for Kamala than Joe.

            3. The educated white women I know who voted for Trump would much prefer Biden to any other Democrat, because they lean politically conservative and he is probably the most moderate person in the field. I don’t think we should underestimate moderate conservatives who despise Trump; they are a pretty significant voting block, especially in states like Iowa and Ohio. I don’t know any genuinely progressive white women who voted for Trump or didn’t vote. I know some very progressive white men who didn’t vote because they didn’t like Hillary. But they also like Biden more than Harris (because sexism).

            4. This is exactly how I feel, sorry for party rocking. We MUST get Trump out because my firm belief is that if he is re-elected, he will be impeached and removed from office and we will end up with Mike Pence as a president, which will be even worse than having Trump (if that’s possible). I want a candidate that all those folks in the political middle (who voted for Trump because “we need a change but I fear the unknown” was their driving ethos) will feel comfortable voting for. Period, full stop. I don’t know if that’s Biden, but I don’t think it’s Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker or Kamala Harris. I’m reserving judgment and my support till I see the full slate of candidates.
               Now is not the moment in history to seek ideological purity from a presidential candidate. We need someone who will beat the incumbent, and if that person’s views don’t totally align with mine, I will learn to live with it. The country may not survive four more years of Trump (I mean literally; the country will literally tear itself apart/descend into violent revolution). We must course-correct and to do that we need a moderate candidate who is electable. If people can’t get behind that idea – I hope they are willing to take moral responsibility for the sh*tstorm that comes next.

         5. By far. As an independent, Joe Biden hits on way more of the moderate ideas that I support.

            1. My personal dream team is Biden and Booker. I wish all the Dems would just lock themselves in a room and figure out who is going to be the nominee versus playing it all out publicly – which means everyone’s dirt (imagined or real) gets exposed, so much drama … We need to be UNIFIED.

               I also do like Howard Schulz, who is a REAL successful businessman (unlike Trump), but if he runs, I want him to run as a Dem, not as an independent, bc otherwise he’ll just do what Bernie Sanders did and split the Dem vote.

   3. I’m waiting until later (watching from afar as a US-born Canadian). My initial gut instinct favourites are Harris and Booker but tbh I’m probably happy with anyone who’s not Sanders or Biden. I haven’t delved into specific policy details yet.

      I do think the infighting is ridiculous + so are the long campaigns (we complain in Canada if campaigns are longer than 6-8 weeks). I’m happy to have a robust competition and will support whoever the nominee is.

   4. It’s most important to me that out of this field, we find a really good candidate that can be elected and will be accepted, if not beloved, by most of the country. I think having a big field means that we have more people to choose from- people like Kamala Harris might not have entered the race if it was kept to a smaller number, so I’m excited. I’m also excited that we have some good options here to replace Trump- I’m of the mind that impeaching him immediately would do more damage than good (rally his base and get them more convinced of the fake news and conspiracy in washington) so I’m willing to play the long game here.

   5. I don’t have any favorites yet, but I’m concerned that the progressive base is going to insist on ideological purity tests (ie must be woke af on all issues) to our detriment in the general election. It really, really concerns me and I’m not sure which candidate can avoid that.

      1. Same concerns here. I’m really hoping for a unifier – someone sane and kind. So many Americans would vote for that right now.

         1. I would love to see Amy Klobuchar run.

      2. +1000. Also, I’m not sure I can get behind a candidate without several years of national experience who can wrangle deals across the aisle in Washington.

      3. Agree. The woker-than-thou people are the ones responsible for the backlash that put Trump in place in the first place. Normal people are tired of hearing that everything HAS to be seen through the lens of identity politics; they’re tired of having to navigate whether it’s offensive to have their 5 year old dress like Pocahontas for Halloween and similar trivial b.s. that the woker-than-thou crowd focus on.

   6. I hate the early campaign starts. I think part of the reason Trump did well is that he declared so late and seemed like a ‘fresh face’ compared to the other candidates who wore out any interest too early.

   7. Honestly, I just want someone electable at this point. I don’t expect there to be insanely drastic differences in platforms across the D candidates, my biggest concern is can we get the person elected. I worry that the field will be too crowded and the primaries will get us someone who is not the most electable. In case you haven’t already notices, I care only about getting a D in office at this point!

      1. +1.

         I can’t say this out loud to anyone, but after 2016, I don’t believe it’s possible for a woman to win the general election. It really opened my eyes to how much strong women are still despised in this country. At this point, I want someone — anyone — to replace Drumpf.

         1. I agree in general with this, but that was literally the same thought I had about our country electing a black president… it seemed impossible, until it wasn’t!

            1. But Obama was/is male.

               2016 really exposed how deep this country’s hatred of strong women still is.

         2. Well, I also think Hillary Clinton was the perfect storm of who could lose to Trump. She’s been the focus of attacks for 20+ years and positioned herself as an insider. Elizabeth Warren’s issue of income inequality probably would’ve been able bring that flaw of Trump’s to the spotlight. Sanders polls well because people think he’s genuine–and really, any man would’ve been able to get away with lecturing Trump.

            1. I agree that she was the “perfect storm” candidate in 2016. I would like to think that Kamala Harris or Kirstin Gillibrand are more electable, but I’m just not sure. I don’t think Elizabeth Warren has a snowball’s chance in h3ll of winning the general.

            2. With Gillibrand, she has struck me as a combo of Aaron Burr and Tracy Flick.

               Aaron Burr — if you stand for nothing, what will you fall for? She had an NRA A rating. Until it wasn’t expedient for her to have it, and now she has an NRA F rating.

               Tracy Flick — I am a working mom and she has always rubbed me the wrong way with her stories of her trials and tribulations. It’s not a contest. But try pumping on the floor of a flight deck or the factory floor or when you are a waitress. Girl literally has no clue about how anyone but her has it. She comes across as all preachy and smug. Not sure the country needs more privileged white women thinking they know what is best for the rest of us.

            3. I am going to push back on this sexist criticism of Gillibrand. She can’t be all things to all people– no one can. Why do you expect her to? Of course she doesn’t know how to pump on the factory floor. But she has overcome a lot of obstacles specifically related to being a working mother. I resent that all the work she has done to normalize motherhood can be so easily dismissed by the flippant criticism of “oh it doesn’t count because she’s white and has money.” Yes it does count. Yes she has helped.

            4. Gillibrand — the NRA A –> F rating will be something she really can’t explain except to confess that she is just an opportunist. And she has no real legislative accomplishments to speak of on anything notable. Like she has done nothing of note. I can’t get behind that.

            5. I think Gilligrand is only mentioned as a candidate b/c she is female. If she were a male senator, she’d be a snooze-fest. Very junior and nothing to point to as a compelling case for leading the country. Sure, she’s a figurehead, but she seems so hollow.

         3. Yup, I agree a woman can’t win. Certainly not Warren (who anyone remotely moderate despises and who is already engaging Trump on his ridiculous name-calling) or Gillibrand, who I personally like a lot, but will be tied to Hillary by the right and the media. Maybe Kamala, but it still seems like an extreme longshot to me. I want Joe Biden for electability and because I think he’s a kind, level-headed person who would do a good job and he runs on hope and optimism. I really don’t want Bernie because he runs on anger just like Trump and I really don’t like that. His anger is less destructive and obviously I agree with him much more on policy, but I don’t like that he’s so angry all the time. I also don’t think he’s very electable in a general because there are a lot of never-Trump Republicans who would vote for a moderate Dem like Biden but can’t bring themselves to vote for Bernie (my father is one, he voted for Hillary in 2016 because he lived in a swing state and he despises Trump, but I know he will never ever cast a vote for Bernie). I have no real objection to Cory Booker, except that he gave the most boring speech I’ve ever witnessed and I would find it kind of depressing if we could elect two black men before a single woman.

            1. Biden-Harris is winnable I think.

            2. Yep. There are lots of people like your dad. I am a republican and will vote for literally any democrat you give me in the next election. But I cannot bring myself to vote for Bernie.

            3. Yes, Biden-Harris is my dream ticket.

   8. She hasn’t announced yet but I think Amy Klobuchar would be fantastic, and would be electable despite her gender (I’m still bitter….).

      1. I agree and she based on stats that WaPo put together is the most electable out of the bunch thus far (the data did not include Booker, Biden, or Harris (due to CA system)).

      2. I think a lot of the reason people are so enthusiastic about Klobuchar is that she hasn’t declared yet. There’s a lot of evidence that female politicians (well probably politicians generally, but especially women) are popular when they’re not running for anything. I’m just really bitter because in 2016 all the Bernie bros said “We’re not sexist! It’s just Hillary we hate! We’d love Elizabeth Warren.” And exactly 0% of them are remotely enthusiastic about Warren now that she’s declared her candidacy. I think the same thing would eventually happen to Klobuchar, although I do like her a lot.

         1. I agree that sexism is generally a problem, but I’m not sure Warren is the right person to illustrate that issue. I was all in for Hillary, and was super inspired by the idea of a woman president, but I cannot stand Warren. I didn’t like Bernie, and I find her to be cut from a similar cloth. Worse yet, I find her tactics to be very similar to the spectacle that I hate about Trump.

            1. Oh yeah I think you and I see eye-to-eye politically. I was also a huge Hillary fan and find Warren and Bernie both very undesirable for similar reasons. And that’s a consistent and non-sexist position. I’m talking about the diehard Bernie supporters (mostly men) who didn’t support Hillary and in many cases didn’t even vote for Hillary because they claimed to want someone from the more progressive Bernie/Warren mold (which, while stupid IMO, is also a consistent position that is not necessarily sexist). There were a lot of people saying “this isn’t about women, we love Elizabeth Warren. Hillary is just the wrong woman.” But now those EXACT SAME PEOPLE don’t like Warren, but claim they’re not sexist because they’re big fans of Klobuchar. It’s the people flip-flopping on Warren that bothers me, not people like you and me (and plenty of others) who disliked Warren all along. And now Klobuchar is seen as the safe, non-threatening female because she’s not yet running. I think that would change fast if she declared her candidacy (although like I said, I like her a lot).

      3. I’m also a huge Klobuchar fan. I think she handled herself perfectly in the Kavanaugh mess. I think her middle America pragmatism and ability to stay unruffled is the perfect antidote to Trump, as well as anyone who wants to characterize Dems as purely coastal elites. She gets “it” but she doesn’t feed into hysteria. And, to address the question of whether a woman can ever be elected President, I have watched a lot of her coverage and cannot find an instance where anyone could rationally characterize her as “shrill,” so I hope that is a good start for her.

   9. I’m liking Jay Inslee (governor of Washington State), though I don’t believe he’s formally announced yet. He’s got a good story – middle class background, had to drop out of fancy college to care for ailing parents and finished at a local college, was a prosecutor for years. And he’s focused on the environment, which I personally love.

   10. If the candidate ends up being a more progressive one, I think Doug Jones would make a good VP pick. He doesn’t have much of a chance of reelection in 2020 (it’s a damn shame, too) and is a solid, scandal free moderate.

       1. I like him so much.

   11. As I Canadian I can say most of my circle of friends are team Booker, but I can see why a liberal vegan would be a no-go in the US. Its too bad though because I think he would be able to play nice on the National stage and make some meaningful social, environmental, and diplomatic progress that the US so sorely needs.

       1. As a NJ native, I find him fake phony a smooth talker with no real follow through. And that sentiment is shared by most people who knew him as mayor.

          1. Agree — he’d probably be fine as a neighbor. But any renaissance in Newark is b/c of its proximity to NYC and nothing else. My friends are charter school teachers who grew up in Newark/East Orange and they have nothing nice to say about him. But unlike most of Newark’s mayors, at least he’s not in prison.

       2. Booker’s challenge is that he has no discernable personal life (which is widely believed to be bc he’s gay but chooses not to be out – which is *entirely* his decision to make, IMO), and having a cheerful smiling family matters a lot in US politics. I actually think Booker would be more electable if he had a photogenic male partner and an adopted kid than he is now.

          1. Agreed. Being closeted makes people wonder what else you’re lying about.

             1. Eh, that’s not my view. The decision not to be out is a complex one and his closemouthedness about his personal life doesn’t make me distrust him. I just think that American campaigns run heavily on a traditional family narrative – candidates’ spouses typically have their own page on the campaign website, families are heavily involved in campaigns, and first ladies are supposed to have their own platforms. Someone who has no documented personal life at all is likely to have a hard time connecting with people. I think he’d be better off as an out gay man or as a out single straight man who’s looking to date or whatever than as a cypher.

          2. Is he really gay?? I always thought he was probably just a playboy and/or workaholic type who has no problem getting short-term female companionship, and doesn’t need to settle down with any one person because he doesn’t have a ticking biological clock. I know plenty of them in real life, none of whom are gay.

             1. I have no idea if he is or not – that’s just what people seem to say – but either way, the “nothing to see here” about his personal life will be a serious challenge on the campaign trail.

          3. “Having a cheerful smiling family means a lot in US politics” is what makes me ashamed to be American. I couldn’t care less about the personal life of anyone I elect to office (assuming they aren’t beating their spouses and children). Of course, gun culture (biggest oxymoron there is – nothing cultured about guns) also makes me ashamed to be American.

   12. Mayor Pete! I don’t think he has a chance at all but I really, really love everything about him. I think he could do well if he makes it out of the primaries, which he likely won’t due to a lack of recognition.

       1. He has a lot of support among the Notre Dame alums in my newsfeed, lol. I wonder if they could become a campaigning network?

          1. ND alum chiming in here to say that he has done great things for South Bend…wish he had more recognition!

       2. Who on earth are you talking about?

   13. I was happy to find how competent Harris’ start was and disappointed at Gilibrand’s. No to Warren and Sanders, although I like some of their policies. I like Booker but think he may need more substantial experience?

   14. My dream ticket is Joe Biden-Julian Castro. Or the other way around. I am, but I am not sure America is ready for another MOC president. I honestly don’t think a woman can win.

       Fwiw, I am currently a registered Democrat, but considering re-registered as an independent. I used to be a Republican pre-Trump.

   15. If we want Trump out of office we have to run a young, white male. Period.

       1. Beto or bust?

          1. Very honestly? I myself am leaning that direction.
             Folks, we just need Trump out. And we need someone who is willing to take on the mess he will leave behind while accepting that large-scale progressive change may not be possible in the immediate moment. For folks who have read The First 90 Days, our new national “manager” will most certainly taking on a “turnaround” situation (especially because the economy is supposed to tank sometime in 2019). A photogenic, media-savvy person with a level head and reasonable expectations is what’s needed. That may not be a woman or a minority. I accept that.

             1. I’m anon at 3:28 and thanks for the reply. I wasn’t joking: I like him too. I also think he has a certain charisma that, for better or worse, appeals to people. I’m impressed with his matter of fact was of bridging cultural issues ( the kapernick response come to mind). I also agree with the rest of the board that now is the wrong time for a woman candidate.

7. I need a shoe with a 1″ heel. Like a Ferragamo Vara, but that’s not in my budget. I don’t do well in flats and it is hard to search for “heels” with a 1″ heel (everything else is a flat, and has not heel at all). I had high hopes for the C-H Vara-ish shoes, but they didn’t work for my feet.

   There has to be something out there, but my searching skills are failing me.

   1. I’m assuming chunky heel after looking up the Ferragamos. After my knee surgery, my favorite chunky heel but not frumpy pumps were Topshop and SJP. C-H run narrow. I like the Michael Kors Estelle (ankle strap) and Linea Paolo Biarritz (but way funkier than what you’re looking for). Linea Paolo Greta is a t-strap with a shaped heel that looks good. Trotters Lola looks pretty frumpy. Geox Annya isn’t bad looking, but definitely more of a comfort shoe.

      1. Does the linea Paolo Biarritz have a narrow toebox?

         1. I only own one pair of Linea Paolo shoes and they do not run narrow.

            1. I met Paolo at a trunk show at Nordstrom several years ago. He’s a lovely man.

            2. The shoes I have (backless mary jane stilettos) are gorgeous!

   2. I think Michael Kors has a knockoff version, or at least they used to

      1. What sort of quality are MK shoes? I might be interested.

   3. Have you tried Zappos? You can filter heel height for 1-2 inches.

      1. Yeah, I poked around a bit. You can filter both heel height and heel style (block heel). Look at Anne Klein Norwood or Calvin Klein Genoveva.

   4. I am looking for a similar shoe, but have not been thrilled with the quality of the Kleins and MK. Can anyone suggest a higher quality similar shoe? Price point up to $350.

   5. I was on a similar hunt a few years ago and have had some success with Rockport (although I think they discontinued the Total Motion 1 inch line that most closely resembled the Vara). I found some of their models were less frumpy than the others while still offering a good level of comfort.

   6. I have some from Louise & Cie that I like. I think I got them from Nordstrom Rack.

   7. Take a look at the J Crew Factory Anya heels – they are knockoff everlane but the heel is a little lower. They also have a flat called the Lily on clearance that is SO cute, if you’re a lucky size.

      1. Anya for the win!

   8. Hope you see this since it is late in the day. Issac Mizrahi makes a similar shoe for around $60-$75. Certainly not the same quality but I am happy with the ones I have and they’ve held up well for the price. It is sold on QVC only but don’t let that discourage you, these aren’t pull on jeans they’re selling. :)

   9. Take a look at Franco Sarto. They have some 1” heels. Mostly loafer styles, but might be something there. I find them true to size and comfortable out of the box.

8. Here’s a fun friday question for you all…

   I work in a small boutique firm (not law), with all the perks and problems that come along with it. One of those is that the partners tend to keep tabs on people who leave, not in a weird way but in a “oh what’s so-and-so up to now?” way. About a year ago a coworker who had been here about 5 years left to go back to school. He and I have since then become… involved. He wasn’t my supervisor, but he was senior to me and trained me in a lot things, and technically he was still employed by the firm the first time we hooked up (it was the night before his last day after a goodbye happy hour.) We didn’t become official for several months after that. Normally this would be no big deal, I don’t need to talk about my relationship at work, but since everyone knows both of us I don’t know if I should be hiding this or just acting like it’s normal or what. FWIW, this is my first job so the whole office norms thing is a bit of a struggle.

   TIA for any and all advice.

   1. Just act normal.

   2. If it were me, I would act like it was totally normal. I would talk about my significant other appropriately as I would if I was dating someone who was a stranger, and if anyone ever asked a specific question about who they are or how I met them, I would say “oh you actually know them….it’s so-and-so who used to work here.” There is no need to ever mention the first time you hooked up, just tell them you stayed in touch and started dating after he left the company.

   3. also small firm life. I think there’s certainly nothing wrong with it, like you say, no big deal – it just depends on your comfort level of sharing your life. I think everyone has their level from total secrecy to lettin-it-all-out. You definitely don’t OWE anyone an update on him just because you’re seeing him.

      I’m not a total black box, but I’m fairly generic when talking to coworkers/bosses about my weekend plans and husband stuff. On the other hand, my husband has a 100% locked down “work persona” that is very general and he does not like ee/coworkers knowing about his/our personal life. It’s up to you, but given that your coworkers know a lot about him (and thus will definitely be prying into your relationship) then I’d personally err on the vague, keeping it under wraps side of things

   4. My small boutique firm is the same way. We actually invite people who used to work here to firm events still, and they stop by the office all the time. Everyone that works at my firm is married, so this isn’t really an issue, but I don’t think anyone would care if it was. I think everyone would actually be really excited that you were dating someone that they already knew and liked and just leave it like that. Just say y’all kept in touch and started dating on whatever date y’all became official.

      1. After having watched a few coworkers navigate similar situations, this would be my approach. It’s common for people who work in close proximity to each other to end up in relationships! It will become exponentially weirder if you try to hide it or act like you have anything to be ashamed of.

         And I wouldn’t get hung up on the fact that you may have hooked up for the first time while he was still technically employed by your organization–he was on his way out.

         1. Thank you (and everyone!) I think I just feel weird since there is sort of the illusion of impropriety there, even though it was really nbd. We were pretty good work buds which wasn’t a secret, and some of the people around my level know I’ve kept in touch (although not to what extent) so I think I just need to bite the bullet and be like “yep it’s a think, no big deal.”

   5. I completely understand. When I met my husband we were both in the Rotary Club together. It wasn’t a secret that we were dating, exactly, but a lot of people didn’t know and it was weird to not tell them and it was weird to tell them and … it was just weird. It will be weird at first but then it will pass and life will go on.

      And congratulations!

9. Can anyone suggest search terms that will bring up images of what someone has worn? When I look up Kyrsten Sinema, I only get headshots, but I’m interested in how she dresses.

   1. Google “shoes” or “dress” or “pants” and you’ll usually get more outfit shots of folks.

   2. Krysten Sinema + dresses? Or + outfits if she wears pants more.

      1. yeah, tried that. hmmm…Google fails me.

   3. “Kyrsten Sinema clothes” seems to give a fair amount of results

   4. Check out her instagram and twitter pages – she shares lots of pictures of meetings with constituents on there so you’ll see her everyday looks. Also there was a slate article about her style earlier this week.

   5. Try “Krysten Sinema fashion” – that also pulls up a bunch of articles about her style, plus some wider shots on Google Images.

   6. Make sure you’re spelling the name right! Even in this thread, there are two spellings.

   7. I would try searching her on Pinterest

10. Going to Kenya unexpectedly on Monday. Workwear I’m fine for but there’s 4 days of safari now. What do I wear for that? Will apparently be likely to rain on the afternoons.

    1. No recs, but way jealous!

    2. Where can I find a job that involves last-minute safaris?

       1. Right??

    3. Light/neutral color clothes, something that will be comfortable sitting in a jeep all day. I mostly wore hiking pants and cotton or linen t-shirts. A hat for the sun (and also because if you have a camera with a viewfinder, it’s easier to not have to remove sunglasses). Dark blue and black attract tsetse flies (google tsetse fly trap and you’ll see what I mean), so avoid those colors. Tsetse fly bites hurt (like horsefly bites, except worse). I had horrible welts in reaction to them, but my DH, who normally is the one who has bad bug bite reactions, was fine, so YMMV. Take a good camera, and have fun!

       1. Oh, and I do recommend long pants and a lightweight long sleeve shirt if it’s not too hot, because, again, tsetse flies.

       2. Agree with the above. Add a rain jacket and check the temps early morning to see if you need a fleece, socks, etc. Our ride in the morning was at about 5 am and it happened to be unusually cold. Don’t forget an adapter to charge your camera, phone. Spending a few days on safari in South Africa was one of me favourite trips. Enjoy!!

       3. When I was in South Africa, we did an afternoon walking safari one day, looking at tracks up close etc. And the guide did suggest no white because…. I don’t know. But do bring options!

    4. Layers are your friend on safari. You’re often going out at sunrise, and it is COLD in the mornings. It warms up as the day goes on, and can be very hot during the day, but you will regret shorts.

    5. Used to work on the edge of the Sahara in West Africa – if possible cotton all the way including underwear if you have any. Include a light weight sweater or cardigan, which need not be cotton. Rain gear may be hot – umbrella preferred.

11. I read this on go fug yourself, in the comments discussing various sartorial choices of the British royals (it is a fun read). But reading it explained my pro-black-accessories bias: I am a city worker and city person and black just makes sense; cities are dirty and things get scuffed and it is easy to fix dings on black things with a sharpie. Brown would make sense to me if I were less office-y, less urban (or if I were Lady Mary and went on hunts).

    At any rate, it also explained my too much black looks a bit too heavy on weekends.

    But it was one of those a=ha moments where all of a sudden the crazy world made a bit more sense. [And it was easy to resolve a boot-color issue in favor of black — in LaCanadienne, it was pricey enough and quality enough to make sure I chose right the first time.]

    1. Would you mind linking the article? They have a lot of Royals coverage.

       1. I tried to find it. But it’s cold outside — I promise that if you just read their site — it’s in the comments to something where Kate Middleton was visiting with children I think — you will have a lovely hour of reading or so. Their comment section is what I live for. It rights everything wrong in my world.

       2. I remember seeing this, and I *think* it’s in the comments of this post: https://www.gofugyourself.com/kate-makes-pizza-designs-gardens-and-other-items-of-duchessly-interest-01-2019

    2. That does make a lot of sense. I wear black all week to work downtown and don’t touch it on the weekends and wear brown.

    3. Yes, I have heard this.
       When we lived urban lifestyle in early 00s, my husband got a long mid-calf length black wool coat for winter. He walked to the bus, to the metro, he had a hat, everyone else was wearing the same thing.
       Then we went to visit his rural Midwestern family. (He hates the term “flyover country” but you get it!)
       And they kept asking him if he was The Sprint Guy from the commercials – remember that guy? So funny!

    4. That’s such an interesting turn of phrase. I’ve been doing this my whole life without realizing it.

    5. When The Hubs started at his Biglaw firm in the mid-90s, one of the senior partners (a two country club type) sat him down and told him to stop wearing his favorite brown suit to the office because “Lawyers at Biglaw Firm do not wear brown in town.” No joke.

    6. Many years ago the fabulous Christine Baranski was in a show with a comedian who played a country weather guy or something who came to New York to work at an NYC TV station. She was horrified to see him wearing a brown suit, and explained “New Yorkers are only wearing black until something darker comes along!”

    7. Lawyers from our London office visited us once and laughed at all the men’s brown shoes — they were adamant about the “no brown in town” rule.

12. Minor rant, How often each day are you laughed at? I’m laughed at a lot, and while I’m generally friendly and love to laugh, I hate being laughed at. I don’t laugh at other people unless they’re joking. Just now, a paralegal interrupted me with some papers to sign. As as a courtesy, I took off my headphones (cubicle) and told her I’d sign immediately to prevent her from having to retrieve them. She thanked me and as I slid over to sign my phone moved a bit because my headphones had caught on my chair. She then laughed at me as if this was so funny. Like, lady, I’m doing you a favor, can you give me a break? This also happens to me when I’m very very slowly opening our (windowless) office door and someone is surprised by it opening on the other side. Inevitably, the person starts laughing like this is funniest joke ever and I feel stupid for opening the door.

    1. Lordy — no one is laughing at YOU. It’s at most a nervous-fill-blank-air-space nervous chuckle at the SITUATION. No one is being mean to you.

    2. Honestly, you’re making too much of this. People aren’t laughing AT you in these very minor instances you’ve described. When I read your first sentence, I was picturing people laughing at you after flubbing a presentation or something, but trying to be friendly about a door opening mishap? Not the same thing.

    3. I don’t think these people are laughing at you. They are laughing at the situation. I have had my phone fly off the treadmill – that’s funny but no one is laughing at ME, they are laughing at the phone falling (or moving after getting stuck in your case). With respect to the door issue, again, no one is laughing at you, they probably laughing because it’s unexpected or awkward. Also, it’s funny to see a door slowly creep open in slow motion. Has nothing to do with you as a person, it’s just a funny situation to some people.

       I think you need to work on taking stuff less personally.

       1. I also see these situations as people are laughing at the situation and because they’re feeling a bit awkward about the situation and they default to laughing at the situation.

          1. Yes exactly. I am a nervous laugher and would probably laugh if surprised by the door opening. I think it is usually seen as cutting any tension also, but does make me realize I should think more about it because I don’t ever want someone to think I am laughing at THEM.

       2. “I think you need to work on taking stuff less personally.” THIS. OP’s post is bizarre to me.

       3. Thanks. Yeah all this stuff is just so commonplace and not at all funny to me. Nothing went flying,my phone moved maybe two inches? Why is it funny? With the door, if I swing it open quickly the person will be startled, then probably laugh harder. How long do people need to be on the planet to anticipate a door might work two ways?

          1. How long do you need to be on the planet to realize that laughing at things that go wrong is a completely normal part of being human and not at all about you?

          2. Just because it’s not funny to you doesn’t mean it’s not funny to someone else. Also, as people explained, others are laughing either at the situation, or not from funniness at all but out of awkwardness, nervousness, to make someone in an awkward situation feel better/less self-conscious, or to fill a silence – laughing is used in many different ways.

             Along with taking this stuff less personally, you also need to take this stuff less seriously. Your response to all this advice is “why is this funny? humans are stupid to laugh at this”. Lighten up, life is too short, and honestly they may be responding in such a light hearted way due to what I assume is a death stare from you at small situations.

          3. This is just the way human socialization is. Get used to it.

    4. What makes you think that they are laughting at you? It sounds like they laughing at the situation, not you.

    5. I think a lot of people laugh at things like this – but I’d posit the gentle thought that they aren’t laughing at YOU, they’re laughing at the situation. Sometimes people laugh because they are surprised or startled – they are covering embarrassment, or genuinely find it funny (I get the ‘caught-on-the-other-side-of-the-door’ thing a lot in my office with blind corners and lots of doorways – we usually end up laughing). Try taking a step back and think, “could this be the situation?” I assure you, I chuckle in these situations when I’m on either end of them and it is always, always about the situation, not the person.

    6. None of these are examples of people laughing at you.

    7. From OP’s comments it sounds like she might be on the autism spectrum – these are normal, social interactions, and her reaction could suggest a lack of understanding that. I had a relative diagnosed later in life who struggled with things like this and it helped her tremendously to understand what was going on. OP, may be something to look into.

       1. IDK — my inlaws are all clinically anxious and have agoraphobia and they truly think that people are laughing at them, judging them, etc. They are not wired to think that people don’t notice / don’t care / have 10-second attention spans even if they do notice or care.

          And they are not aspy or ASD at all.

          1. Anon at 10:39 is still right though. Struggling to make sense of social interactions/nuances can indicate autism as well as anxiety, paranoia, phobias, etc. Could be any number of mental issues for OP, ranging from a clinical diagnosis to insecurity.

             1. Please don’t diagnose people with mental illnesses based on one post. It’s just rude.

       2. But it’s not diagnosing. Instead of piling on with another “what’s wrong with you” comment, it’s pointing out that hey, what you’re talking about could be a sign of a mental issue. That’s not rude, it’s helpful. If it doesn’t apply, OP is free to ignore but it’s something to think about.

          1. it’s definitely not helpful.

             1. Sounds like you’ve got an issue with mental illness. May want to check your bias.

          2. Armchair diagnosing is not helpful.

    8. I’m going to offer another pov- I do have a friend that people tend to laugh at/make fun of a lot and it drives me nuts that she lets people treat her that way (she doesn’t seem overly bothered by it, and in fact maybe enjoys that dynamic, so I don’t step in). Maybe ask a friend you trust (not at work) for an assessment to see if you are being overly sensitive or it’s a real problem and go from there.

       1. helpful

    9. I was a terribly sensitive child, and I can remember the feeling of absolutely HATING it when people laughed at me. Especially when it was one of those situations where an adult laughs at the “oh so silly” thing said by a kid. I spent a lot of years nursing hurt feelings, and it took me a long time to figure out that there was not cruelty behind it. As an adult, the experiences you’ve described sound like people are trying, in their own way, to connect with you. Humans like to share in experiences, and laughter over a silly mishap is a great way to bond. Not laughing AT you, but more like looking for a mutual acknowledgment of something happening. Also, if you tend to be quieter, or not engage in small talk, they might be trying to cover up some awkwardness or quietness (some people don’t like breaks in conversation).

       All that to say, try hard to look objectively at the situations without personalizing them! Go sit somewhere and objectively watch people, and see that it’s just some some people interact. Also, the door opening may have legitimately startled the person, and laughter was a nervous reaction.

    10. To answer your actual question, I am never laughed at. That would be a totally bizarre thing to happen, especially at work.

13. Has anyone else had only one sexual partner? I’m curious (based on some of the recent conversations here). I met my now-husband in college and he was the first person I slept with, although I wasn’t opposed to all LGPs before marriage. I had no interest in hook up culture, but I have no religious objections to LGPs before marriage. I also have no regrets whatsoever because I love my husband and it all made sense for what I feel comfortable and good about. Anyone else?

    1. Presumably my parents and several of my cousins and my sister. All met their spouse in college (parents met early in high school). I didn’t get married until my late 30s, so I am very different :) My family isn’t particularly conservative, either. Come to think of it, most of my family is like this. I think that I am the first one not to get married in my early 20s on each side. And we have many shotgun weddings (only a few that didn’t last), so it’s more that we have a history of divorce/widowhood upsetting the one-partner tendency here.

    2. Sometimes when something unexpected happens, folks laugh at the situation. Sort of a social comfort commiserating with the other person (like “Can you believe that happened?”). It’s weird. But I don’t think in either instance described the folks are making fun of you–they’re sort of acknowledging the awkwardness of the moment. Usually when you laugh it puts the other person at ease. But sadly, it’s having the opposite effect. I don’t know how much you can do about it except recognize that it’s not a “you” thing–they would likely do this with anyone else.

    3. I am 32 and had zero sexual partners, not even for religious reasons as everyone I know in Morocco had boyfriends as of high school and many of my college friends had serious relationships.

    4. I’m 30, married, and have only had 1 partner. I didn’t wait until marriage and I’m not religious, but I just don’t open up easily to people, physically or otherwise, and I’m just not wired to want casual encounters. I was 24 before I lost my virginity, and my now husband was also a virgin. I feel like that afforded us a level of comfort that I appreciate and generally like how this has worked out for me.

       1. OP here and this is exactly how I feel as well. I take time to open up, I’m not wired to want casual encounters, and I also wasn’t comfortable with some of the risks (unplanned pregnancy with someone I don’t know well, risk of STIs, etc.). For some of us, that comfort level and trust really makes all the difference for a strong intimate relationship.

          1. Please note that multiple partners and casual hook ups are not the same thing.

             1. Definitely not the same thing. If you don’t get married to someone you meet in college or shortly thereafter, multiple partners are inevitable for most people who aren’t officially waiting until marriage. Casual hook-ups are not. I got married in my 30s, as did most of my friends. All of us had multiple partners, none of us had done the hook-up scene.

             2. I don’t understand the language of “inevitable.” It doesn’t take an official decision to wait to marriage to just not be interested in the dating scene.

       2. I am you, but 42 now and he is 45. We still love each other enormously and our gardening is excellent. I never planned things to be this way but that is how they happened.

    5. I have only slept with my husband, and only after marriage. He has the same history. We both have zero regrets. I know I would worry about how I compared to others if he had slept with others before, and I think I would have trouble not comparing him if I had.

       1. I often hear this from people who wait and find it really interesting. I’ve had 6 dudes and I don’t compare them at all. Sure, they were all different and our intimacy was different but I’ve never thought about one in bed with another or done a compare and contrast or even thought of it much and I assume they don’t either.

          1. Way more than 6 here and I don’t compare them either. Either the $ex is good or its not and I either feel like putting in the effort to make it better or I don’t.

             1. Same. Waaaay more than 6 and I never compare. Especially those who have been long term relationships. It’s really not something people spend time thinking about.

             2. YUP! The long term relationships may get more attention to “this is what I like” and I do tend to think in terms of “meh,” “good,” and “great,” but my two long term relationships have been solidly “great” and I don’t remember the first well enough to compare it to the second. The perception/opinion of how good it was tends to stick around only as long as I remember the person well or still feel some connection to them.

       2. It’s funny because I have the opposite reaction. I’m glad my husband has had multiple partners before me so that he isn’t constantly wondering how good it might be with someone else.

          Don’t think your perspective is wrong, just like seeing differences in point of view :)

    6. I have had three male partners but only one female partner (and I’m a lesbian!). So, I sort of qualify. Quality and quantity are different. It is possible to have a varied and exploratory sexual life with one partner or with many! We are all different and that’s ok.

    7. Nope, but to each their own.

    8. +1 – also, we waited till we got married, but this is common in our culture (not American).

    9. I could have written your entire comment!

    10. Yes, me. Same story. DH was my college boyfriend and the first and only person I’ve had a s3xual relationship with. Honestly, it’s fine. Our gardening life has always been good (then) to great (now), and I don’t feel like I missed out on anything. Personality-wise, I don’t think the casual encounter would’ve been for me — then, or now. Love and trust in a s3xual relationship are important to me (and were important to my DH, too). I actually think it’s kind of fun to have a long gardening history with someone and to know that we learned together. We’ve been married 15 years.

        That said, I don’t judge anyone who does the FWB thing, or casual hookups. Good for her, not for me. I’m always a bit puzzled about how people work up the comfort level to have those sorts of arrangements, but it’s coming from a place of curiosity, not judgment.

    11. I am decades older than many women on here, so my perspective is concededly a bit antiquated.

        When I was in college in the late 70s, most of my female friends talked about their multiple sex partners. By the time they reached 40, the same women were saying that their husbands were their only sexual partners. Go figure.

        1. Hahaha

    12. Kinda. I married my college boyfriend. We didn’t wait till marriage, but we were very serious about each other almost from the outset and the emotional security I needed was there. I had a boyfriend in early high school and my relationship with him did turn sexual, but mostly because neither of us had any idea about the many stops and detours one can make between kissing and a proper LGP. This bugs me even now, because if I’d known about them, I could have decided beforehand what my boundaries were. As it was, I ended up regretting a lot of things. Educate your kids!

        1. Definitely educate your kids! But, also, don’t beat yourself up. I don’t think there’s any reason at all to be disappointed/regretful about having two partners. You were living life as you knew it to be at the time. The fact that you would make a different decision now is just armchair quarterbacking.

    13. I only had one other partner besides my fiance — a hookup with a then-good friend. It so happens that my partner and I dated in high school and were each other’s “first”, and then got back together later in life. He had a few more other partners in between there. Sometimes I wonder if I should have gotten out more in the LGP way, but I’m also happy with the life I lived in those years really focusing on my personal development, so it doesn’t bother me.

    14. That hasn’t been my situation, but if everything’s good in your relationship (and it sounds like it is), good for you!

    15. Lol i was thinking it would be to ask how many partners people have had. I have slept with 4 people (started at 20, ended at 24 when I slept with my husband), but my husband has only been with me (he was also 24) not that he has a thing for waiting, just how it happened.

    16. Yes. Same story here–married the college boyfriend. I kind of wish I had at least one other person, just out of curiosity really, but I’m good with it. I was too terrified of accidentally getting pregnant in high school to sleep with high school boyfriend.

    17. I used to feel self conscious about having slept with only my husband, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve seen that my fears were either based on my own insecurities or my friends’ insecurities (the only person I ever got real judgment from was a friend who was very self-conscious and defensive about a string of hook-ups that she found embarrassing). Growing older and gaining more self-confidence on this and other issues has been very rewarding, actually, and I’m so glad I didn’t sleep with some of the randos I knew in high school just so I wouldn’t be the last of my school friends to be a virgin.

    18. I had a college BF that I slept with and broke up with and then I met my now-husband shortly thereafter so I’m at 2. My husband was a virgin, and although I don’t have regrets about sleeping with my college BF (he was a good guy who treated me well and I think there’s nothing wrong with doing it before marriage) a part of me wishes I’d waited just so my husband and I could both be each other’s first and only, dorky as that sounds. I’m also pretty anti-hookup culture and am worried my daughter will do things she really doesn’t want to do because she thinks that’s the right way to get or keep a boy. People here will probably call me anti-feminist but I’m definitely going to tell my daughter something similar to what my parents told me, which is that a lot of high school boys are only interested in one thing, it’s easy to confuse lust and love, and s3x is generally healthier and better when you know the person well and know that he cares about you beyond the physical aspect of it.

        1. I consider myself a feminist and will tell my daughter all that. Then she can make her own decisions.

           to answer OP, same here, only been with my husband (met him at 25, didn’t wait till marriage), had only kissed one guy before. I don’t regret it per say, but do wish I had more fun in my twenties, but that’s a different topic!

        2. I don’t see how your last sentence is anti-feminist at all.

        3. That’s exactly what I’ll be telling my daughter as well (with the added note that she is worth spending time with so she never needs to feel like she “owes” a boy anything because he was “nice to her” or “spent so much time on her” or any of the other phrases boys use to pressure girls. People will spend time with her because she’s a great person!). My ultimate hope is that she will wait until she’s mature enough to make a good decision, whether that’s at 18 or 24 or 35 or whenever.

        4. I’m the same as you – my number is 2. Both guys have had significantly higher numbers. It used to bother me but it doesn’t anymore.

           My parents were more free-love hippies and I definitely did not grow up in a house that pushed abstinence. My mom advised that I should keep two things in mind – it should be with someone who really loved me, and someone with whom I could have a mature conversation about safe s*x and if there were any issues (pregnancy, STDs, etc) I would be able to have a mature conversation about how to handle them. Those guideposts were always strong in my mind.

           (I think I was also heavily influenced to stay chaste in high school by an outbreak of chlamydia among the popular kids. Happy to avoid that!)

           1. Those are great guideposts from your mom!

        5. I’m a huge feminist and very happy about the hookups I’ve had in my life (seriously, no ragrets) but I tell my teen daughter the same. That boys are just wired to want s3x as often and with as many partners as possible. Even if they tell you they’ll die of you don’t give in, and they may sincerely feel that way in the moment, you owe them nothing and you should only do what you want to do.

           1. “That boys are just wired to want s3x as often and with as many partners as possible.”

              Kindly, I really don’t think that this is true. (Certainly agree with your last sentence, though.) I don’t think we should stereotype men and their s3xuality for (some of) the same reasons we shouldn’t stereotype women’s. I also think that implying they’re “wired” to be a certain way removes their agency in ways that can be problematic.

           2. I would change this to “boys are socialized to want s-x as often and with as many partners as possible” so that she understands how huge a role problematic social norms will have in her romantic relationships, that they affect boys as well as girls, and that it is possible for boys to be better than that so she should be on the lookout for the better boys.

    19. I slept with my now-husband after about a year of dating, and he’s my only one. I don’t regret it, it saved me a lot of heartache but it did cause problems on my end because he slept around pretty casually before me and that hurt. I grew up pretty religious and was going to wait until marriage, and he did not. My girlfriends had a lot of hookups in college and told me it’s not that great, so I don’t feel like I missed out because I saw a lot of the negatives with catching feelings during a casual hookup through them.

        1. Eh you do you but idk why it hurt that he lived a life before you. Also, I’ve slept with 6 guys, none of them casual, all of it great. Don’t write off all the sex we are having with multiple partners as casual hookups.

    20. Nope, and I wouldn’t want to but if you are happy and have no regrets, you do you! I would regret it if I only had one sexual partner my whole life, I would have missed out on amazing experiences. Looks like you’ve got lots of women on this board who did the same thing.

        1. ‘I would regret it if I only had one sexual partner my whole life, I would have missed out on amazing experiences.’ This comment is kind of reverse-slut-shaming. There’s nothing wrong with you deciding that you wouldn’t want to marry the first person you’ve been with, but it’s condescending people without multiple partners have missed out on amazing experiences. There’s no reason you can’t have amazing s3x with one partner only. Other partners are just different, not necessarily better.

           1. I read that differently. She is someone who values sexual exploration for herself. She isn’t insisting that everyone needs to or they will miss out.

              1. Exactly. I literally said “if you are happy and have no regrets, you do you!” It is not “reverse slut shaming” which is not a thing. What OP describes is the traditional wait-until-marriage stance. In today’s slut shaming culture, I don’t want anyone to read these comments that say “I only had one secual partner too!” to feel any shame or judgment for their perfectly valid choices. We are all allowed our sexual choices and my comment was in that spirit.

              2. Yeah, I didn’t necessarily get that vibe from this post, but I have from so many others in real life. “Oh wow, just one? That’s so limiting,” and so on. It’s weird because these same people have frequently bemoaned how unsatisfying, upsetting, or downright dangerous random hook-ups have been for them. I certainly don’t feel like I’m missing out when I hear those stories, but of course it’s a bit different if you’ve had multiple satisfying relationships.

              3. +1, that’s how I read it, too.

                 I’ve only had one sexual partner – met in college and married a few years after graduation. I don’t necessarily regret it, but my upbringing included very strong abstinence-only, sex is DANGEROUS messages (as part of an overall theme of caution from my parents); sometimes I wonder how different my life could have been if I’d been less fearful.

        2. What Triangle Pose said was the literal truth – in choosing one option, you by definition miss out on something else. If you only ate chicken for your entire life, it would mean you missed out on steak. That does not mean that your chicken was not fantastic and fulfilling but you did still miss something.

           1. Sure, but it’s not necessarily worth missing.

              1. And that’s a personal opinion about what is right for you.

           2. Agree. Also,can we just address the undertone of the original comment? Great,op, you were really lucky in love and in life. I’m pretty sure most of the world agrees, so it’s ok if one poster wouldn’t have chosen your path.

              Guess what happens to the rest of us? We’re Sl@t shamed for sleeping with more than one person. Or become a 40 year old virgin accused of religious zealotry or weirdness.

              It also doesn’t end when we do find partners. I’m a selfish” older mom who had a geriatric pregnancy. Guess what? No emotionally stable person wanted to marry me at 25 and I’m pretty sick of being blamed for it.

              1. …I’ve never seen anyone shamed here or anywhere else, except in certain religious communities, for having more than one sexual partner and I think a pretty sizable majority of the moms here had kids in their mid-30s or later. I had a kid at 35 in a very rural red state and am closer in age to most of my daughter’s friends’ grandmothers than mothers. Nobody has told me to my face that I’m selfish but who cares if they think that? I have a wonderful partner, a wonderful kid, a good job and am very happy. Sounds like you have these things too. I would think seriously about why you have such a chip on your shoulder about this. Life is so much happier if you stop being mad at everyone for real or perceived slights.

              2. Respectfully, my experience differs greatly from yours. It’s great that you were never shamed for marrying (after being with more than one person) and having children later in life,but that doesn’t make my experience less real.

                 I do regret, deeply, being an older mom. Its been brutal on my career and my body. It’s the reason my child is an only child.But, again, it’s not my fault that life worked out like this for me. Certainly, I’m grateful for my life,but in an ideal world,I’d rather be the op. If there are upsides to a life like mine, I think it’s perfectly ok for the above posters to point those out.

              3. @ Please- Exactly! The OP’s choice is lauded as the best around the world. I’ve met people in OP’s situation who were uncomfortable about marrying “early” as residents of a big city, but there are so much other cultural support, and eventually, their peers catch up.

                 If I become a mom, it would be for the same reasons. I am tired of women’s relationship choices being judged when certain decisions or outcomes require 2 people in agreement.

                 Waiting has fewer benefits as you age. For example, a single 40 year old will have a harder time finding someone without an incurable STI than an 18 year old.

              4. “…I’ve never seen anyone shamed here or anywhere else, except in certain religious communities, for having more than one sexual partner”

                 I don’t see it a lot here, but I assure you, a sizable portion of the population loves shaming women for this. Even people who aren’t religious.

                 “I would think seriously about why you have such a chip on your shoulder about this. Life is so much happier if you stop being mad at everyone for real or perceived slights.”

                 This is so passive aggressive.

              5. The average US adult has had more than 7 sexual partners. I’m not saying slut-shaming doesn’t exist, it does, but it’s ludicrous to act like it’s more common or socially acceptable to have only had one partner than to have had a handful. Regardless of what the statistics say, the OP asked this question because she presumably feels somewhat isolated and alone as someone who has not had multiple partners. She wasn’t judging you or anyone has else. It’s not an insult to you for her to ask if there are other people in the same situation as her. Literally nobody commented saying having multiple partners or getting married later was bad. If you’re jealous of the OP for meeting and marrying someone young, I’m sorry, but that doesn’t mean she was wrong to ask her question. I’m often jealous of all the money and travel posts here, but it doesn’t mean the discussion needs to be shut down or the person who started the thread is being insensitive.

              6. “ I am tired of women’s relationship choices being judged when certain decisions or outcomes require 2 people in agreement.“

                 This! Also women bragging about having one s*xual partner, getting married young and calling it “reverse sl*t-shaming” if anyone suggests that wouldn’t have been their preferred path.

    21. I suspect this happens when you get married relatively young (or at least meet your partner relatively early in life). My number is probably astronomically high compared to many people and part of it is because I am open to and enjoy casual experiences, but a big part of it is that I’ve dated many people in the roughly 15 years since I started college and your number just adds up over time.

        1. Agree that this scenario happens most likely if you meet your one and only long term partner relatively young (prior to mid-20s?)…

           I honestly wouldn’t have minded if my ex was my only long term partner, but as he just dumped me for another woman, I don’t plan on being celibate for the rest of my life.

    22. Me. Same story as OP. And not by design and not because of any moral or religious reason (unless you count not cheating on BF/spouse as moral or religious reasons). And frankly I think most people beyond my closest friends would be shocked (like floored) to know this about me. I mean, if I sit down and really dwell on it, I suppose it would have been nice to have more experiences, but I can only think of a couple of situations where I really would have actually played my hand differently (i.e., I wasn’t ready in high school and I didn’t have any specific serious boyfriends through most of college). And I wasn’t about to not move forward with marrying my husband when I did just so I could play the field more.

    23. I married my first partner right out of college (I was his first too) and I kind of thought I was just one of those women who didn’t like s3x. After we got divorced, (for a lot of reason, not just that) I realized I do like it very much, just not with him! So I feel like I would have missed out on this huge important part of my life by staying with him forever.

    24. 30 years old. Yes, just my husband, well before marriage. I didn’t have any concept that when I dated and slept with my now husband that he was going to be the guy I’d end up marrying and the only guy I’d wind up sleeping with. Things just turned out that way, and I neither have any regrets, nor am I exceedingly glad he’s the only man I’ve slept with. It was just what felt right and natural to me.

    25. Me, I’m currently 31 and single. I’ve only had intimate relations with my ex, who I dated for about five years. We were both each others first sexual partners, and we both come from a fairly conservative culture. But since I’m unlikely to marry my ex, I’ll end up at least having another partner at some point in my life…

    26. I’m relatively young (30) but I met my now husband when I was 20 and he’s the only person I’ve had like, full PIV s3x with and hopefully things will stay that way for a long time! I had experiences with other guys but wanted to wait for a real relationship to take that final step and I don’t feel like I missed out on anything. Most of my other friends have vastly different numbers than me but my situation was more an accident of timing than anything else.

    27. I’m the opposite of most commenters. I slept with a few people before a long term relationship in my 20’s, then a few boyfriends for about a year and now single at 33. I think my number is 15. I have no regrets. I have very high standards for marriage and refuse to settle. I also have a lot of fun and enjoy my single life. To each her own! The only things I will say, is having more partners allowed me to have new experiences and really see what I was missing! So much fun.

        1. Way more than 15 here! I was having a great time in my 20s. I don’t judge anyone for waiting or for having fewer partners or for having more than me. Everyone do what’s best for you and stop withbthe judging of a woman’s sexual choices. I’m reading Radical Love right now and high five to that!

           1. Completely agree! What is Radical Love? I may want to check it out. I often listen to the podcast S3x with Emily.

    28. My partner and I are each other’s first partners. I personally fit the definition of demisexual and would probably still have had no partners if I hadn’t met mine, and I know a lot of couples where neither person had few if any prior partners. I think a common pattern is (a) not caring too much about dating or singlehood status while (b) having other goals, combined with (c) falling in love, often with a friend, and falling pretty hard at that.

    29. I’ve only slept with two guys, my high school/college boyfriend and then my husband. Was with the first guy 6 years (on and off) and then met my husband the next year. I fooled around with a couple of other people but never slept with any of them. I don’t open up to people easily and it just felt weird to me to “garden” with people I barely knew. I definitely do not judge others for feeling differently. I don’t feel like I’ve missed out on anything because both my ex-boyfriend and my husband were pretty, uh, adventurous in the gardening department (and for me, I think it was easier to be adventurous with someone I knew and trusted than someone I didn’t know well, other’s mileage may vary).

    30. Me too.

14. My parents are in their mid-60s and enjoy doing group tours with Gate 1. I’ve been on a couple of trips with them and it does seem to trend towards an older crowd. The content of the tours was good. They were kind of busy, but we got to see all the main attractions in the countries we visited. It was also nice having local tour guides explain the history, culture, etc of the different sights. In comparison does anyone have experience with G Adventures or Intrepid Travel? They want to do another group tour this summer and were considering another company. I wonder if the other companies would be good for their age group.

    1. I asked about Intrepid Travel a week or so ago and and some really helpful, positive responses.

       1. Thanks! I’ll do a search on the site.

    2. Both of those companies skew younger. There may be folks your parents’ age, but also people in their 20s. The groups are also much smaller. The big difference between GAdventures/Intrepid and Gate 1 (I’ve done trips with all three) is the level of comfort. Gate 1 is well cushioned. Porters to carry your bag from your hotel to the bus, always a very comfortable hotel, every time you get on the bus, you get handed a bottle of water and a wet wipe, things like that. The other two are less luxurious. Even at their “comfort” level- the hotel will be more 2 star or maybe 3. You carry your own stuff, eat more at local places, sometimes take local transport, rather than the big air conditioned bus. I believe they also use local guides. There is also more time on your own built in to many of their trips.

       1. This is very helpful and exactly the type of info I was looking for. Thanks so much! I think they would be more comfortable with a Gate 1 trip.

    3. One thing that I have a lot of luck is asking tour companies what demographics have already booked a trip I am considering. Intrepid and G Adventures and other groups I have booked with are usually happy to disclose if a particular trip is skewing younger, older, more singles, more couples, etc.

    4. My parents have done multiple tours with Tauck (sp?). I don’t know Gate 1 but sounds like Tauck may be a closer match to that than the others mentioned.

       1. Tauck is fancier than Gate 1.

15. Cross posted to moms site..

    For those of you who have difficult relationships with your parents… where do you draw the line as far as them having a relationship with your kids?

    Both my husband and I have very troubled relationships with our moms (we both have divorced parents, so this doesn’t impact relationship with our dads). They were both super excited for our daughter to be born. She is now 2 months old. Only grandchild on all sides (and I’m an only child so potentially the only grandchild for my mom).

    In the last week both our moms (completely unrelated situations) had yet another hysterical freak out at each of us (typical for them). This time I have no intention of speaking to my mom again until she apologizes. Which I recognize could be never. But how do I handle my daughter seeing her? I would hate for her not to have a relationship with her grandma. But my mom is so mean to me and so irrational sometimes. Same with my MIL. I think we’re both worried that they might say disparaging things about us to our daughter when she is old enough to understand which would break my heart.

    Help?!

    1. If these people aren’t local, you can just sit back and chill. They’d need to take any initiative and you can decide how you want to be a gatekeeper (like you can visit; you can stay in a hotel; you can come over b/w 9 and 11 in the morning; you can meet us for lunch at restaurant Y and then baby/I will go home for her nap).

       1. They are local… which should be awesome but isn’t. I thought my relationship with my mom would improve after my daughter was born and thought my mom would be really involved in her life.

          1. In that case, maybe appointments with her (we’ll be at the park at 9 and would love to meet you there) may be better as a way of restarting if/when she appologizes.

             1. This. Meeting in public is always a good way to set limits. Grab a coffee together at a local coffee shop etc.

    2. If you’re not speaking to your mother until she apologizes then your daughter doesn’t see her either. That’s how it works.

       You’re never getting an apology and you know that. Instead of waiting on a fantasy, just tell her that when she says mean things you’re hanging up or leaving. And then, when she does, just do that. No debate no conversation. Just a dial tone.

    3. I went no-contact with a close family member long before my child was born. This person has never met my child, and we are not on social media so it’s more difficult for them to find any information on the child.

       We also have some relatives who are very annoying. We did not have our child spend time alone with those relatives when she was younger. When she was 9 or 10, we started letting let her decide what she was willing to put up with. Sometimes she will go visit the annoying relatives, sometimes she will decline.

    4. I have a difficult dad, although not for hysterical freak out reasons. When I visit my home state, we do brief visits with my kids and my dad, like lunch and a playground. We don’t go to his house, and my kids will never be alone with him. If hysterical freak outs or bad-mouthing were in the mix, I think I would do the same thing but immediately end the visit if those things happened. If they kept happening I would reduce or stop the visits for some period of time. I think this is actually a good way to show kids how to set healthy boundaries.

    5. At two months old, you or your husband + the baby are a package deal. If either mother would like to form a relationship with her now, they will have to mend their relationship with either/both of you.
       It certainly gets easier in a few years. My mother and I do not always have the best relationship, but she is the best grandmother. There are times we are not speaking, but she instantly becomes civil when it involves the children. She will text me and ask if she can pick my boys (5&8) up from school, let me know what time they will be home and keeps to her word. My youngest is a tape recorder in human form – if she were to say anything negative, I would know. (ie “I’m not tattling mom, but Grandma let us stay up till 9 and Grandpa said cr@p twice.”)

       1. Guffaw @ your youngest!

    6. I have this relationship with my mother. Pre-child, I put into place very strict boundaries to protect myself at the advice of a therapist. I now have one child, six years old, and I very cautiously and carefully worked to see if I thought my mother was OK to be with my son and have at least some level of relationship with him. It turns out she is a much better, if not great, grandparent than she was a parent. I try to be very clear about my expectations for her interactions with my son and she has (mostly) done well implementing them. When she hasn’t, I let her know and I talk to my son at his level about it. I think she’s trying because she feels some level of regret with how she mothered me and she wants to remain a part of his life

    7. I had a great relationship with my Grandma, but I know my mom and her’s relationship was really rocky. And I could feel the tension when they were together. My best memories of my grandparents are from when I was at my grandparents without my mom. Obviously this involves a lot of trust, and that grandma isn’t hysterical around the kids, only when you are around. If grandma is always nuts, its best to avoid her all together.
       If grandparents are not terribly far away, and they could swoop and scoop the kids for a couple weeks in the summer or a long weekend, I think this is a good equilibrium.

       On the other side of my family my grandparents lived down the street, had a very hands off relationship with my dad and I saw my grandpa once a year maybe and my grandma on Sundays for church (they were divorced). I didn’t have a great connection with them, but I think that was more about our personalities than anything else. I think the best advice really is to listen to what your kids want. Obviously if they are toddlers you can’t do that, but, if your kids want to hang out with their grandparents, and their grandparents aren’t actively working against you, then let them decide.

16. During a meeting to assess a vendor, I told to my director (and manager) and to her boss that one of the vendor employee had made a s e x i s t joke on a phone call and that had make me uncomfortable – at that time I said “sorry, what did you say?” and the guy just brush it off.
    The jokester called me yesterday and want to discuss with me but I was on my way to a meeting so I hang up saying that I would call him back. Then my director told me that she has told the vendor about this (and mention my name) and she wants me to have an open and honest conversation with the jokester to clear the air. I will have the unpleasant call but I feel betrayed that she threw me under the bus like this. Opinions?

    1. Hey, I’m happy that they guy is doing the make-amends call. Call. Then listen. You have nothing to say until you’ve heard him speak. Assuming it goes as it should, I think your exit line is “I appreciate your call on this. I’ve got to run. Good-bye.”

       Then think of how you’d manage your manager next time. I think that expecting anonimity is a reach where if they share the situation that they don’t have personal firsthand knowledge of, of course it would track back to you and that vendor’s employee.

       1. +1. The burden here is on him, not you.

    2. You suggested that you tried to call him out on the joke during the call, so it woukd be a reasonable follow-up. I think that these people need to be openly confronted, they should not be allowed to get off the hook.
       I would think why you feel thrown under the bus – as it seems conflicting with the above. Why does it hurt, what would be your preferred solution?

    3. OP here: Thank you for your comments.
       EM84: to answer your question I would have prefer that my manager just told our vendor that some of us thought that the person was sometimes making unappropriate comments. I am not the only employee that had experienced this situation but I think I might be the only one who was upfront about it. I would have prefer for her not to mention my name and keep it general.

       I just called the guy : he said he did not remember telling a s e x i s t joke and had no clue what I was talking about. I repeated the joke to him and he told me it was not his style but that if he did, then he was sorry. Pfff
       I said that we should not have a debate over this, that something was said that I found condescending and that next time I would address it immediately. I also said that I think that we both wanted to work in a productive and respectful setting so let’s agree to keep thing professional. He said he agreed and I ended the call quickly after that…

       I went back to my manager and told it was done. I also mentioned that briefly the conversation and she was not happy that he did not admit to what he done. Honestly at this point, I just want to move forward and put this is in the past – which is what I told her. Hopefully this will not happen again.

       1. Anyway to put the vendor on the “do not work with” list or is this a sole provider situation?
          That was not an apology.

          1. I agree that it’d be appropriate to decline to work further with the vendor and let them know that a) making sexist comments and then b) not having the integrity to apologize properly isn’t something the company tolerates. Or, if declining to work further isn’t an option, at least letting the vendor know that they’re on thin ice.

             1. +1 on sending a clear message that this is not appropriate (cease collaboration)

          2. A broker kissed me on the mouth once. I told my boss that I didn’t want to work with the broker anymore. Boss said that I must have provoked the behavior. I told him I was not in the habit of trying to seduce married men my father’s age. My boss shrugged.

             So I went direct to the broker’s biggest account and signed it myself. The broker lost thousands of dollars a year in commissions. Sometimes, you just have to get revenge.

    4. I have been in a similar situation – not a vendor, but insensitive male colleague – forget “uncomfortable”, this is unacceptable and inappropriate – the burden is not on you to listen to a phony apology – the burden is on management to make a judgment call about this vendor. You are completely allowed to set boundaries and say you are not OK with this vendor’s behaviour/comments and you will make that clear if it happens again. More and more, I am hearing smart business leaders say they will do business with vendors that share their values….does this vendor realize that this individual’s behaviour directly reflects on their business and brand?

       1. OP here again: this vendor was just selected as a preferred vendor. We were debating between 3 vendors but the my director’s boss (department head) made it very clear that her choice was made. It is during this meeting that I made the comment that I was not comfortable with that decision and discuss the joke. Other colleagues at that meeting mentioned that they were not surprised and had dealt with similar things. The vendor selected is fine but it was not our first choice.
          I am not surprised that the dept head is not more sympathetic about this and she does not see this as a problem: it is how she is, she is also very sexist. She will often say : it is hard to manage women, working with men is easier, women are always gossiping and other nonsenses like this. I have already told her twice that what she is saying could be perceive as sexist but she is not going to change. I could always go HR but I know it will create more problem for me and nothing positive will come of it (as a previous colleague try the HR route and it was horrible, she ends up leaving ).

          I think more and more about leaving. The work environment is no longer pleasant. I blame the dept head for this: since she has been appointed to the role a few years ago, things have been going downhill. I am middle management in a very specific industry but I get calls from head hunters on a regular basis. I am staying because I like my colleagues and I am well known & respected: it makes things easier. Plus I am a new mom with a busy husband so being comfortable in a job made things easier. I love my job but it is no longer pleasant. This is sad but I am sick of this nonsense.

          1. It’s wrong (and likely illegal) that your company makes you and others deal with this kind of crap. I’m sorry that your company isn’t doing better.

          2. I stayed in a similar environment where this sort of behavior/comments was acknowledged as unacceptable but nothing really ever done about it and no one held accountable. I stayed because I was respected and liked my colleagues, and I understand needing to be in a comfortable job for personal reasons. When I was ready, I started a job search and found a much better position and organizational culture where this sort of behaviour is not tolerated. It was immediately clear to me that the culture and leadership in former organization is outdated and mediocre at best. Good leadership doesn’t look the other way, or ignore things that his/her direct reports have raised as issues, or say things like you noted. You will make the move when the time is right….good luck

17. I’m looking to refinance some of my grad plus loans (7.65%…ugh). I’ve held off on doing this for a long time because I don’t want to lose the ability to put my loans in forbearance if I were to lose my job. I’d like to find a private lender that offers this option. I believe SoFi offers this, but the rate offered me isn’t as low as I would like (4.57% fixed for 5 years – although I’d probably get a lower rate if DH cosigned). Any suggestions?

    1. Nah, it’s not a cosign issue…the rates just aren’t that good for the risk of losing protections. I looked into it and decided not to bother.

    2. When we’ve lost job(s), the private lenders will work with you if you give them a call, even if it’s not as official. They will, for example, lower your monthly payment and then check in with you in 3-6 months to see if they can increase payments, again.
       Hope that helps.
       I hate student loans.

18. My fiance finally quit his high-stress, high-pressure toxic job (after it started really affecting not just his mental but his physical health) and finished this week. He is going to be on the job hunt full-time soon (and thankfully has some savings and has a highly employable skill set/experience outside of his exact field), but I also hope he’ll take a week or at least a few days to decompress. He is not a “go for a massage” type person — any ideas on how I can support him during this time of decompression and ultimately a career switch while he’s recovering from burnout? He had been in this field for his whole career, over a decade of moving up, so it is a big change for him.

    His doctor recommended he try a yoga retreat and he is open to that, so we may start doing some yoga classes together which I hope will help him maintain some balance in whatever job he goes in to next as well.

    1. Yoga retreat is a great idea! I did this one last year and loved it. Blue Spirit offers a lot of different ones but this one was pretty laid back and I would say it’s beginner accessible. https://bluespiritcostarica.com/retreat/melanie-caines-robin-penney/

       1. Check out Kripalu in MA. A yoga retreat. The have programs, but you can also go for the R&R program which is unstructured. You can book a private room (or share). Very chill, great healthy food, best yoga I had ever done re being easy to follow (not a yoga person). Went with a friend at the start of his sabbatical. We both loved it.

          1. This is actually the exact place his doctor recommended — good to see another positive review!

    2. There was a similar post a week or 2 ago- my husband and I have both weathered job loss (both took about a year to find a job we were happy with). First of all, tell him you love him completely outside of his job identity and that won’t change, period. Then if you can, go on a trip to decompress. We did Starbucks and lunch dates that have us something to look fwd to and generally tries to enjoy the time off as the old adage “you either have time and no money, or money and no time”is so true, so we tried to enjoy the time.

    3. Travel! Every time I’ve been in a situation like that, I booked the cheapest interesting ticket I could find (I like the app SkyScanner), stayed at hostels to keep the cost down, and used the time off to have an adventure. You can either go with him as a quick vacation or encourage him to go solo. I’ve hiked volcanoes, got scuba certified, learned to surf – all because I was trying to turn burnout or layoffs into a positive experience. Highly recommend it!

    4. Agree with the above. Add a rain jacket and check the temps early morning to see if you need a fleece, socks, etc. Our ride in the morning was at about 5 am and it happened to be unusually cold. Don’t forget an adapter to charge your camera, phone. Spending a few days on safari in South Africa was one of me favourite trips. Enjoy!!

19. I’m a 30-year old biglaw associate. I’ve always had a more classic style but between crazy hours, frugalness and general malaise I’ve let myself get frumpy. I need a refresh badly. I was thinking about spending around $1,000 but could spend more.

    How would you do this? How much would you spend and where? Buying, say, 3 MM Lafleur dresses probably won’t get me there, but I realize I probably should start investing in quality. I’m also a pear and sheath dresses do not fit off the rack. Would you focus on a few tailored pieces? Should I focus on shoes/accessories to fight the frump? All thoughts welcome!

    1. Do sheath dresses actually fit anyone off the rack? In my experience, proper fit is the biggest key to avoiding frump, and that almost always requires tailoring.

       1. Amen.

       2. Yes. I always reach for sheath dresses because they are the one thing that fit off the rack. I’ll get the sleeves of blouses and jackets tailored and the hemds of skirts and pants tailored but sheath dresses are the one thing that fit beautifully off the rack for me.

    2. I would say invest in beauty a bit (botox, microblading, things of that ilk). Then good accessories, a classic watch, a nice set of pearl or gemstone studs. I can pull a lands end dress from frump to polish with lipstick and accessories.

       1. I disagree – if you’re frugal, don’t start signing up for expensive beauty treatments (and you didn’t mention wanting to make efforts in that department anyway). How your clothes fit is the biggest factor and make sure you take good care of them too – get rid of sweater pills, polish your shoes, launder according to directions, etc.

          1. I love Botox, but I agree. You can un-frump without investing in all of the beauty stuff to this degree.

          2. Do invest in your posture though.

    3. Pear here and I love the MMLF Etsuko.

       And maybe try a blow-out and check your eyebrow game. Ever notice how models look lovely in meh clothes? It’s b/c they have a good head game — start there and then see what else you can gently adjust.

       And be like Hannibal Lechter — get rid of the cheap or worn shoes. They can drag down anyone’s style game.

    4. Are you looking for a full wardrobe or just a few pieces to update your current wardrobe? Ime, the cost of the clothing has less to do with how polished you look and more to do with the fit. You can definitely do a new wardrobe for 1000 shopping sales at mid-range stores (Dillard’s, Nordstrom Rack, White House Black Market, and high quality low end stores like Talbots) and getting them tailored. I honestly don’t think MM Lafleur holds up well for the price, especially for unlined items.

       Also you could focus on low effort put togetherness by focusing on a low-maintenance for you hair cut and minimal but well done makeup.

    5. What are the pieces of your current wardrobe that you keep reaching for? I’d start there rather than trying to reinvent yourself into someone who wears sheath dresses every day. Find new, current versions of those go-to items.

       So if your rotation usually includes, let’s say, gray straight leg pants with ballet flats… swap in gray ankle pants with pointed-toe or smoking-slipper style flats, OR wide-leg pants with pointed-toe flats. If you’re stuck in a shell + cardigan rut, swap in some sleek turtlenecks or a sweater-blazer. Etc.

    6. Go through your closet and pull anything that doesn’t fit or is frumpy etc out, then stuff into a donation bag. Include accessories shoes, bras, underwear, all of it.
       Take a good look at what is left over. Assess gaps. Check out Pinterest for capsule wardrobes, and extrapolate from there. Search for color combos, and get an idea for colors you can add to spruce things up. Scarves, jewelry, shoes can go along way.
       Maybe set up an appt with astylist at Nordstrom, take photos of your wardrobe so they know what you are working with.
       And have fun! Don’t feel like you “shoukd” wear certain styles if you don’t feel great in them. I’d rather find a dress off the rack that looks great than get something I’m not that into tailored.

       1. This.
          Also, I am now plus-size and a few of my favorite retailers have “kits” – 7 or 8 mix-and-match pieces for work, casual, whatever. Consider buying some of these and getting a whole bunch of new stuff at once… if that’s your thing.

          1. I know about the universal standard kit (and it is not for me) but which other plus size brands offer kits?

             1. Eloquii has a few kits…. not sure who else.

    7. Depends on where you think the frump is coming from. If you already have a couple of quality pieces that don’t seem to fit just right, you might consider getting them tailored. Same with shoes – take them to a cobbler and see if they can be refreshed.

       If you need new stuff: 2 blazers, 2 pairs of shoes, 2 dresses, 1 pair pants, 2 skirts, 5 blouses, in that order of priority. A tailored blazer can hide a lot of fit issues in your outfit. You probably have blouses that are perfectly fine so I would look for those items last.

    8. With $1000, I’d assess your wardrobe and make an appointment with a personal stylist at a nice department store. The one time I did this for a new professional wardrobe, the stylist pulled a lot of sale items that weren’t out on the racks due to limited sizes. They will also tailor items you buy. The stylist I had was very fast, so it only took a couple of hours to try on dozens of pieces, make some choices, and have the tailor come up. I think I spent about $900 (10 years ago), and I walked out with a lot more than 3 sheath dresses.

    9. I find that looking unfrumpy vs. polished is more about hair, makeup, and one’s general look rather than expensive clothes. Here’s what I would do if I were you and trying to get to polished without a big investment of time and money:

       Hair – Spend some money on a new haircut (unless you love the one that you currently have). You want a hairstyle that is flattering for your face and that looks like an actual style. If you pull it back, go with a simple updo like a Gibson roll (easy youtube tutorials online) but definitely avoid the messy low ponytail or slapdash bun.

       Makeup – Tweeze your eyebrows, put some eyeliner and mascara on your top lid/lashes, even out your skintone with some BB cream or tinted moisturizer, and then dust some powder on top to set.

       Clothes – Find a uniform that works well for your shape. If you’re pear-shaped, try A-line dresses with a blazer that is cropped or nipped in at the waist. Blazers, whether structured or unstructured, are generally better than cardigans when you’re trying to de-frump. Pick neutrals that work well with your skintone (black, gray, camel, white) and come up with 5 uniform outfits based on that neutral. For example, a black blazer with a black dress can be a great look, but you’ll want some variations in texture and fabric. A personal shopper at Nordstrom will be helpful with this. Clean lines and solid colors look subtly polished and will be less memorable (in a good way) so you can rewear outfits without people noticing.

       Bag/shoes – Buy a structured bag on the more minimalist side, in whatever neutral you’ve picked for your clothing. Cuyana bags are a great value. Same approach for shoes. Simple is better.

       Jewelry – Decide on silver or gold tones and then choose a pair of simple earrings and one or two simple necklaces that work with the necklines of your uniform. A personal shopper can help you with that. Nordstrom Rack and those types of places tend to have jewelry that looks nice without being super expensive.

       You’re going to look fabulous!

       1. *frumpy vs. polished

20. What are some fun ways that you initiate gardening activities? We have two little kids, so time, frequency, and creativity are limited. Basically, when both kids are asleep, we say, “let’s go!”

    1. same here. no good advice, but listening…

    2. Haha, that? Going to bed naked usually works, too. Or, sometimes one of us will say, “Shower with a friend?” and we shower together before, um, escalating our activities.

    3. Afternoon “nap” or “organizing our closet” – works well on a weekend. :)

21. I was the poster last week who was struggling on how to get help for possible anxiety/depression. I have my physical appointment with a new PCP in my new city today and I’m already stressing/feeling scatterbrained about how to bring it up. I do plan to ask for a thyroid check so maybe that could be a segment into telling her some of my symptoms?

    1. Rip off the bandaid. Once you sit down just say “I’m experiencing depression and I would like help. Is there something you can prescribe?”

       1. This. I was super nervous myself years ago, but my NP was totally open and willing to prescribe something. I was worried I’d have to “prove” I was depressed and “justify” my request – but then and every time since, it’s been NBD. People have been very caring and understanding. The script above is perfect.

    2. “I’m concerned about my levels of anxiety and depression.”

    3. Write it on the intake form – please check my mental health! Having difficulties with adjusting to new city.
       Circle it. Draw an arrow to it. Put it in all caps.
       you’re not the first one they’ve seen like that, you’re not the first one to cry in the office, you’re not the first they have a list of mental health providers to give to you.
       It will be ok! You will be ok! You are so brave! You can do this! You are important and your mental health is important and you’re doing the right thing.

       1. Thank you!!! I just walked out with a caring new doctor (really liked her a lot), therapist recommendations, some reading material, and a prescription for Lexapro.

          1. I am so proud of you!!!
             Change is hard. Take 1 step at a time. Take care of yourself this weekend!!

22. Who are your style icons for work & play? Just curious, could be an actual person or tv show/movie character

    1. Honestly, I think Kate Middleton does ‘play clothes’ really, really well- I like her casual outfits and would wear similar pieces. Her Dubarry jacket and Chloe boots this month were flattering and chic- and I always like her jeans and breton stripe tops.

23. One of my best friends was fired today. He lives across the country so I can’t support in person. I want to be there for him and help support him through this, but I’m not sure what to do. Help?

24. Question for those of you who use online only banks

    We moved our emergency savings to Ally bank, which we researched ourselves but really were turned on to by suggestions on this board (thanks!). We are happy with the interest rate at 2.2% this month but find that it will cost us $20 to wire any money out to our regular Wells Fargo checking account. Not sure if Wells Fargo charges on top of this.

    Are there other ways to get money out of the account? It’s a savings account so there are no checks. There are no branches to go withdraw cash. I’m stumped.

    1. I don’t have Ally, but all of my various online savings accounts have allowed bank to bank transfers that are free and take about 3 business days, so I would assume Ally is the same!

       1. I’ve used Ally for a year now, doing transfers between Ally and a credit union account. It does not cost $20 to transfer money, it is free and takes a couple business days. You should call Ally for clarification on this.

    2. Why are you wiring money between accounts instead of using ACH? I use Capital One, which is similar to Ally, and you can link your other bank accounts and transfer money without any fees, though some types of accounts limit how many transactions you can do per month.

       1. Perhaps the problem is that we haven’t linked the accounts. They’re saying wire transfer is the only way currently.

          1. Can you set yourself up as a payee through online bill pay and send yourself a check?

          2. Why haven’t you linked the accounts? Isn’t that how on-line banking works?

             1. We set up the account with a starting check and now deposit my husband’s paycheck directly to the ally account. We hadn’t linked it. I’m in the process of doing that now but Wells fargo’s online services have been down all day.

          3. Ally and Wells both participate in Zelle – I’d use that until you can get the accounts linked. There will be a daily limit but I think it’s like $2500.

    3. Huh? Google ally bank withdrawal and read the FAQs. It should not be costing you $20 to transfer.

    4. I was considering Ally, but hadn’t previously heard that they charge you to access your own money. That makes them a no-go to me.

       1. They don’t. This poster is confused.

    5. $20 is only for wires. You can send money for free with ACH if you link your accounts. You’ll have to enter your account # and routing # from one bank into the other bank, and then over the next couple of days they make a small deposit and an equal withdrawal. Then you confirm the amounts (to prove both accounts are yours) and you’re good to go. ACH transactions take ~3 business days so plan ahead.

       1. Thanks this is what I ended up doing. The three days is frustrating though.

       2. My Ally ACH transfer to USAA takes one business day (I think (?) sometimes next day if it’s early enough in the day).

    6. And also checking accounts are free at Ally so why on earth wouldn’t you have a checking account? Then you can move money from savings to checking and write a check if you need to.

       1. +1

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