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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
These pants look perfect for a summer Friday. The ankle length isn’t appropriate everywhere, so know your office, but I’m loving the light gray color and wrinkle-resistant fabric. The combination of the low price and elastic waistband makes them a very appealing option if you’re fluctuating between sizes for any reason — a friend of mine bought these in multiple colors and lived in them for her first few months back from maternity leave. These are $39.90 at Uniqlo and available in six colors in sizes XXS–XXL. EZY Ankle-Length Pants
Seen a great piece you’d like to recommend? Please e-mail tps@corporette.com.
Update: We're adding these pants to our Workwear Hall of Fame because they've been around for years, always make the cut in our best pants for work, keep coming out in new colors and fabrics, and getting rave reviews for their comfort, easy care, and style. Looking for comfortable pants options? We rounded up some of the best leggings substitutes in our recent discussion of whether you can wear leggings to work.
Sales of note for 8.30.24
- Nordstrom – Summer Sale, save up to 60%
- Ann Taylor – 30% off full-price purchase; $99 jackets, dresses & shoes; extra 50% off sale
- Banana Republic Factory – 50-70% off everything + extra 20% off
- Bergdorf Goodman – Final Days Designer Sale, up to 75% off; extra 20% off sale
- Boden – 20% off
- Brooks Brothers – Extra 25% off clearance
- Eloquii – Up to 60% off everything; extra 60% off all sale
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide; extra 60% off sale styles
- J.Crew Factory – Extra 20% off orders $125+; extra 60% off clearance; 60%-70% off 100s of styles
- Lo & Sons – Summer sale, up to 50% off (ends 9/2)
- Madewell – Extra 40% off sale; extra 50% off select denim; 25% off fall essentials
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Rothy's – End of season sale, up to 50% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear in the big sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 25% off regular-price purchase; 70% off clearance
- White House Black Market – Up to 70% off sale
Some of our latest posts here at Corporette…
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
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- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
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- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Ellen
Yay! Fruegel Friday! I love holiday Fruegel Fridays! And welcome Elizabeth to the HIVE! I hope you enjoy your experience here, as Kat’s new assistant. I do hope Kate is still around as she too had a lot of interesting p’osts! And congrat’s for having 9 pairs of shoes in your office. It is the ONLY way to go in NYC, as the sidewalks are NOT kind to our heel’s and sole’s. FOOEY! You should consider wearing NIKE Air’s like me going to and from work, and then carrying your shoes to court like I do to avoid getting them ruined on the curbs. FOOEY on that! You are young (34) so make sure to enjoy your youth while you can! I am spending time in the Hamtons this weekend, but I am older then you. Have a happy holiday to the ENTIRE hive! YAY!!!!
Ribena
I know these are in style, but as someone who’s always been tall, they bring back memories of years spent in too-short jeans. It’s a no from me!
MagicUnicorn
I am puzzled by the trend to call pants cropped at mid-calf “ankle” pants. My ankles are located much closer to my feet.
Anonymous
Often, the photo shoots are done with the garments that were sized for the fit models. The fit models are likely shorter than the models used for the photo shoot — the fit model for these pants might have been 5’6″ or 5’7″, while the model for the photo shoot might be 5’10”.
Anon
Catalog models aren’t usually that tall – I think the average height of catalog models is something like 5’7″. It’s runway models that are super tall. I’m 5’10” and many things that look long enough on the catalog model are way too short on me.
tesyaa
Years ago they used to make special longer versions for the models so a person of more average height could see how the garments fit. Have manufacturers discontinued this practice?
Anon
I think they are ankle length for anyone who isn’t the model height. The model is probably 6 feet tall.
MagicUnicorn
It could be; the photo with the black pants shows them closer to ankle length and says that model is 5’7″ tall. It doesn’t say how tall the grey pants model is or how long the actual pant inseam is, though.
Anon
Because they *show* your ankles.
MagicUnicorn
They do show the ankles, but I wish they wouldn’t specifically label them as ankle-LENGTH when they are not ankle length. Call them crop pants.
Anon
No, crop pants have a meaning. Ankle pants are tapered and close to the leg near the ankle. Crop pants are wide or at least straight legged – same width at the hem as at the knee. And don’t get me started on “Capri” pants.
Anon
I’m not sure they’re in style exactly… I’ve been wearing ankle pants for, idk, 4-5 years now?
As a fellow tall I actually love it when ankle pants are in style because then all of my regular pants look like they’re the right length. :)
The original Scarlett
Same here. I’ve also come to like them because I never have to worry about heel height.
Flats Only
Uniqlo’s website has the garment measurements in the size chart. I bought these last season, and they had a 28″ inseam in the Large size. I am 5’1″ so I had 2″ hemmed off so they would actually be ankle length. They are a nice “office” pant for a business casual office. Washed on delicate and hung them up to dry, and they kept their crease and didn’t dry with wrinkles.
Cincinnati help
Any recommendations for a spot to get a manicure in Cincinnati? Or a spot I can go to for a half day spa?
SSJD
For half day spa experience: Woodhouse Day Spa in old Montgomery. For a simple manicure there are lots of choices. The one a friend recommended to me is Kenwood Nails across from the mall, but you could go anywhere.
Cb
Major impostor syndrome happening here – I’m speaking at a public, political debate tonight, because they originally had a manel. All the other participants are activists on either side of the issue whilst I’m an academic with expertise in the issue but no particular state (not even a personal one, I’m not from / can’t vote where I live). I suspect there will be lots of yelling so I’m just going to try and cut through and draw out differing perspectives but who knows.
Anon
You’ll do fine. Just remember to duck when the milkshakes start flying.
Anonymous
That sounds fantastic. You can be the voice of reason among the crazy. You’ll do great!!!
anon
A manel:)….love it and will be using that one
Davis
Personally, I would appreciate a panel with someone giving the academic perspective. You’ll have the facts to back you up or be able to note the various angles of the debate and you should stay clear of the fray. You’ll be wonderful!
Redux
Anyone work in NYS government know if there is a central legal recruitment office where I could send a resume? I’m an attorney and interested in agency work in Albany, if that makes a difference. HYS ed, 7 years exp. in non-profit and gov’t work, but recently moved to NY from out of state and am finding the process of applying to individual jobs tedious and inefficient (and maybe useless– is it just a black box unless you know someone?).
Anon
I just had a conversation with a friend about this yesterday, although we are downstate (NYC area). He has applied to a number NYS jobs over the years and says that he has gotten interviews anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months after submitting an application. One agency has interviewed him 3 times but has not hired him.
Redux
Maddening! I have an interview with an agency that I am not particularly interested in but I am tempted to take the job if offered just so I can move from the inside. Seems like getting in is a huge hurdle.
Exercise Resource Help
Has anyone recovered body muscle from losing 30+ pounds due to an illness? Do you have any recommendations for what worked for you for restoring strength and gaining muscle in your body, specifically in the upper torso area?
I’m rapidly regaining weight (but not muscle) after a yearlong illness. Normal weight before illness was 140 pounds (at 5’9) but hit a low of 110 pounds after being unable to eat normal meals for a year (I was weak and spending most of this time lying down on the bed).
Fortunately I recently made some progress in the illness itself, which allowed me to eat normal food in the past few months (and regain most of my pre-illness weight). However, despite rehabilitation exercises 3x per week over several months, my muscle buildup is nowhere near shaping up and I’m experiencing all sorts of upper-back and shoulderaches in that didn’t exist pre-illness. Pre-illness, I had some lower back pain due to not having enough muscle and structural issues, but this is being adressed through the rehab exercises and now much better, so the upper back pain is in direct contrast to the progress in lower back. The only thing that helps seems to be yoga, specifically back bends, and the relief is short-lived.
I’m haphazardly guessing the sudden loss and subsequent gain in lower back/ab muscles could be causing an imbalance. I do have structural spine issues and have been seeing multiple doctors (and physiotherapists, acupuncturists, rehab sports medicine docs, and neurologists) but they couldn’t really give me any recs, except to keep up the exercise and see if it gets better.
Anonymous
I think that is the answer. Be super gentle with your body, work with a physical therapist, and give it time. If yoga feels good, do more yoga. Take warm baths. Get massages. Stretch. But you were sick for a year- it may take a long time to heal.
Anonymous
Does your exercise include lifting weights? I’d start there, but as the above poster said, be gentle with yourself! Best wishes :)
Exercise Resource Help
Thank you! I tried lifting weights, and it seems to be the standard for building muscle, but anything above 3 pound weights have my shoulders crackling and muscles getting pinched in all sorts of unlikely places. My trainer is stumped, and we’ve been sticking to planks / crunches / supermans at body weight until now.
Anonymous
So start with two pound weights. And swimming.
Anonymous
Have you seen a physical therapist?
Casper
Try Pilates especially reformer. It’s like one step up from yoga with a combo of body weight exercises and resistance exercise. You can easily adjust it depending on how your body feels
Senior Attorney
Yes +1 to Pilates.
Anon
It’s perfectly fine to lift light weights. You have to start somewhere.
Anonymous
I had a similar weight loss/time period of illness (couldn’t eat most foods for over a year). Every body is different – I say this not to discourage you but to try to lift you up – I got sick in 2014 and it took me until mid-last year (four years) before I felt like my body was “mine” again. And even now, some things have permanently changed. My bra size is smaller (probably forever), I carry weight a little differently around my hips, and I have stretch marks on a lot of my body from the significant weight loss. I am learning to love my body as it is now and what it is capable of. To more directly answer your question about muscle mass – I took it very slow, and I’m probably within 2% of my prior body composition. But as I mentioned, my shape is a little different than before, and I’m just now (five years later) getting to the point I can comfortable lift the same amount of weights I was lifting pre-illness.
Being gentle with my body was honestly a new concept for me and I unfortunately had many “relapses” from trying to push myself too hard, too fast (lost lots of weight I had just gained, lightheaded, muscle/shoulder injuries, etc.). The thing that helped me the most was finding service providers – hair stylists, dietitian, fitness coaches – who had experience working with cancer patients. That was most helpful because they had some compassion and had seen others who were frustrated at themselves/the world for not being able to do things that used to be easy. I learned this the hard way after working with some people who had never worked with someone who was trying to gain weight, etc. I did pay for some of these services but found some resources for cheap/free (my grocery actually has a dietitian on staff, etc.). I hope you are able to find a way to workout – yoga! etc.! – in a way that energizes and refreshes your recovering body, and in a way that you enjoy! Best wishes and hugs from this internet stranger.
Anonymous
Do you enjoy swimming? If so, it’s great for low impact core strength building.
Anon
Your medical issues complicate things to the point I don’t think typical muscle building workouts suggested by the ‘rettes here will be helpful (and could be harmful). Have you spoken with your physical therapist specifically about building muscle for strength and appearance (as opposed to getting you back to basic function which is what the physical therapist probably is, and should be focusing on) and what you can do you your own?
emeralds
Yes, this is something you should be working with your PT and your care team for.
Signed, my SO works in a PT clinic and this is literally his job.
Anon
Finally a question I can help with! I’m recovering from a back injury where I alternate between lower back pain or pain in the back of my shoulder. To strengthen my lower back my doctor has me doing what I call cobra push-ups. You know how you do a Cobra in yoga. You basically do one, lower back down, back up, back down, 10 times while keeping your waistband on the ground. While it is acting up, I do this 3 times per day. When it is good, I should still do it once per day. This exercise was tested in a military clinical study in another country (New Zealand maybe) and it reduced lower back injuries by 80% doing it just once/day.
The upper back exercise is a little harder to describe. Sit up in a chair. Clasp your hands behind your neck with your elbows pointed forward like if you were doing crunches. Lean forward a little and curl your back up then lean back so your elbows point at the ceiling. Do that 10 times 3x day when acting up and 1x day for strength training. I hope that helps!
Anonymous
I had a similar issue. Basically sick for a year. Reformer Pilates got be back to being flexible and gently using my muscles again. That interim step allowed me to get back to the gym and lift weights. I remember putting the pin in the weight machine on the lightest setting and not being able to do one rep at first. I kept trying and after about 6 month of weights feel myself getting back to normal.It’s hard but I dont’ think there is any way to build muscle without weights.
Exercise Resource Help
Thanks everyone! My rehab exercise trainers are licensed physical therapists, but the center mostly works with injured athletes or otherwise people with acute issues, so it’s possible they haven’t had too many cases similar to mine.
emeralds
Tell them that you’re still having issues, and that you’re not sure that the PT you’re doing is working because [reasons].
And get a referral to another clinic if they tweak things and it still isn’t working. Different therapists have different skill sets.
NotYourLawyer
I second the pilates recommendation. I have some spinal issues and reformer pilates has helped with building muscle, maintaining flexibility, improving my posture, and making me less grumpy generally.
Pen and Pencil
I haven’t gone through it, but I have had two different friends lose massive amounts of weight due to illnesses that made them bed bound, including one who could no longer go up a stair afterward. First, be kind to yourself. It will probably take over a year to get your body back to feeling like ‘normal’ or even close to normal.
Both of them had really good success with starting out with a physical therapist. One stopped going after two months, but we were also teenagers so she bounced back quicker then I think she could now. The other kept up with it for about four months. Essentially she got to the place where she could walk up the stairs (with breaks) and could walk around the grocery store comfortable before she stopped, and I think she mostly stopped due to cost, not because she felt back to normal. A year after she was discharged from the hospital, we went to a carnival and she still was needing to take sit breaks and left early.
I don’t have any specific recommendations, as a physical therapist will know more what is best. In general, I think that it just takes a lot of time. Your body went through a lot, and I know with my friends that it was just getting back to living a normal life a little bit at a time that helped really ‘fix’ everything. You say that backbends help, I wonder if your hamstrings are tight? My brother suffered from back pain, but it was really his hamstrings that were the issue.
Peanut
Protein protein protein.
And lifting weights
Anonymous
Have no expertise, only experience as a patient, but had a years-old back problem that became severe a year ago, so that I was in hospital for a few days and very limited mobility for a month at home. What helped was going to a really good physical therapist several times a week for a few months, and at home doing a few prescribed exercises, including the bridge, before breakfast every single day, and during the days taking walks. Recently have been walking briskly 20 minutes to work and 20 minutes back most days, with additional walks during the day. If I don’t do it for several days in a row my back begins to act up again, and, for what it is worth, this is exacerbated if I start eating unhealthily again. Hot showers.
anonforthis
I lost a bit less than 30 lbs when I had cancer that required a bone marrow transplant. I was a robustly healthy athletic 105 lbs before (runner, swimmer, weight lifter), and after I was 76 lbs. I struggled to gain weight because I was on anti-rejection medication for graft versus host that made me nauseated much of the time, and also got pneumonia and was put on tons of drugs to combat that since my immune system was so weak. And I was really depressed from being in the hospital for so long and just being so sick.
Anyhoo, my oncologist had a nutritionist and a physical therapist work with me. In a way I was fortunate to be in-patient for a while so the whole team of doctors could work on my health and getting me to come back to life. The beginning of PT was just the therapist moving my limbs around for me while I laid in bed, but it wasn’t too long before I was on my feet and I did a lot of weight training and body weight exercises, and ate a high protein and high fat diet. Even as a former personal trainer, I wouldn’t have known what to do to get myself back, so having professionals with a speciality in working with patients like me seemed pretty much necessary. It took a full year before I was back to my weight and felt at all normal again.
My case may be more extreme that yours, but maybe you can find similar professionals with the help of your doctors?
Coach Laura
Late reply – but Miranda Esmonde White has a classical stretch program that is meant to balance the muscles and get people past imbalance issues. You can see her programs on YouTube or local public TV stations.
Anon
Anyone have recs for 10-minute YouTube yoga videos? 20 mins is really too long for many weeknights when I’m just rushing to get everything done before bed, but most videos I’ve seen are in that ballpark. My goals are flexibility and mobility rather than relaxation. TIA!
FFS
Not a video, but I really love the Down Dog app. It’s a series of still poses with audio narration, and you can customize it for length (down to 5 minutes), level, and goals.
JTM
+1 on Down Dog.
Anonymous
+1 to Down Dog
Anon
I like Down Dog. Yoga with Adriene on YT also has some 10 minute or less videos.
Laura B
Focused yoga practice videos (like “yoga for core” or “yoga for shoulders” etc.) tend to be shorter. I especially like doing core ones this way.
Also, try googling “yoga for flexibility 10 min” – there’s some good options to start.
If you find a teacher that you like, search on their youtube channel. Most of the online youtube teachers try and put out a variety of class lengths and types. A few lesser known ones I like are Yoga by Candace and Allie/Journey Junkie.
Anonymous
Not yoga, but I’ve been doing Momma Strong and like it. 15 minute videos with options for 5 minute workouts on nights things get too busy.
Browser
I was intrigued by the discussion yesterday in which posters talked about being top performers in their teams while also “wasting” a lot of time during the work day browsing the net, etc. I’m exactly like this. VERY productive in spurts, but I do spend a fair amount of time on off topic pursuits (reading Longform.org, etc.). I am considered the top performer of my team (even the Executive Director one step down from our CEO has told me this), and have always sort of found that ironic given that my teammates seem to be fighting a lot harder than me to produce weaker results. I’ve always distilled this down to a “work smarter not harder” difference between me and them.
What’s frustrating about my work style is that it is not widely considered acceptable – see the post from yesterday, and also corporate expectations that you’re going to have your butt in a seat for at least 8 hours a day to prove you’re “working”. I’m dying inside having to fake being productive 8+ hours a day so my coworkers don’t tattle on me for reading journalism when I can produce really great results that exceed expectations in 5. What’s the way around this? Work remotely more often? I know “get a new job” seems like it would be the solution – but from past experience, no matter how challenging my job, I am just not going to be able to type away in a Word doc for 8 straight hours.
Anonymous
Just keep doing what you’re doing? I didn’t comment yesterday but I was nodding along with the comments. I’m much more productive in short bursts. Sometimes I wonder what I could accomplish if I could keep that short burst energy going all day. But on days that I have to do that, I’m exhausted by the end of the day. I just don’t have the emotional energy to keep the tornado in my head going all day.
Anonymous
What do you do?
Same!
I keep an open browser of word documents on my screen, and spend furtive minutes reading whatever book, learning a new language, or listening to music or Coursera classes on my phone. I’m the same, far more productive with deadline looming in the immediate future, and always meet my workload / timeframe.
Anon
Yup this me too. I’m also in a somewhat creative job, so a lot of my job is just thinking and I can do that while mindlessly browsing. Once I figure out how to frame something, the actual work doesn’t take that long. But I can’t cram more work into the same amount of time, because I need that thinking time.
Anon
No advice, just wanted to say – I am much the same and I am interested in what responses you get. I have always been able to produce better-than-average results on projects with much less effort than most people have to put in. This week I was able to complete an analysis project that everyone thought would take a week or more in 2 days, and when I had the work checked by a coworker it was better and more thorough than she had expected it would be. This is the case for me in every job I’ve ever been in so I don’t think it’s a signal I need to “level up” – every time I level up there’s a learning curve, I get the job figured out, and then I usually only have to work during half my scheduled hours to get the job done.
My problem comes in when A. being bored is not a great look for me; my grandmother always used say “Idle hands are the devil’s workshop” and that is true in my case. B. I’m one of those people that if I don’t have work to do I would rather go home (because I *always* have work to do there). So for me telecommuting more has been a good solution to an extent, but the lip service paid to support to telecommuting at my company does not match actual practice, in which telecommuting regularly (every week or especially more than one day a week) is frowned upon. I know what I should to is sign up for a bunch of Coursera and Udemy classes but what generally happens is I either finish the classes too fast, or I’ll start one, get interrupted, and then have a hard time getting back into it.
Anon
I really feel this – I perform well with less effort/time than other people, and I spend a lot of time at work dicking around online. Work smarter, not harder!
Anon
I missed yesterday’s post, but I was just thinking about that myself. It’s hard because I’m in an industry that bills so that forces me to work longer, not smarter, but my natural inclination is short bursts and I am capable of very high-quality writing (much of what we do) compared to my coworkers. I can do a draft that’s near-final quality in 40 mins while my coworkers can spend 35 producing a piece of crap. I spend a lot of time daydreaming and reading the news or following random topics that interest me at the moment.
Anon
So, uh, I’m this way and I’m the boss. I’m excellent at getting things done super quickly under pressure but for an ordinary day, I don’t find that there is always 8 full hours worth of work to do. I don’t want to wander around and bug my team so I just read or browse a lot. I know the team is also not always 8 hours busy so it’s not like I can take work off their desks, and we have different specialties anyway.
Artemis
This makes me feel so much better, I’m like this and I’m the boss and I thought that somehow made it worse . . . then again, I don’t expect my reports to be heads-down productive every minute of their day either. Partly because that’s silly and unrealistic, and partly because I’m not, so it would be hypocritical.
Anon
Before I was the boss and was one of the entry level people I worked with a woman at my same level who complained about how busy we were and how she had to work late all the time, and how unfair the work load was. I kind of realized she was mostly just complaining and showing off, but then we worked on a project together and it opened my eyes to how slowly some people work. She just moved at a snail’s pace getting stuff done that I could easily do in 1/4 of the time. I don’t know if it was a focus thing, because when she wasn’t wandering around complaining to everyone and was just on-task, I got to the point where I couldn’t stand to sit in her cube and watch how slowly she moved the mouse.
anon
I’m so glad there are others like this! Admittedly my workload could be a bit heavier, but I feel so guilty when I see others seemingly working their butts off and I’m…reading this site or something. But I also 100% agree with the sentiment to work smarter, not harder. Not all spreadsheets have to be color coded in various shades of blue.
Anon
I was the one who first admitted to “f’n around”. Here are my thoughts:
1. Your co-workers are f’n around a lot more than you/they think. There’s a lot of water cooler talk, internet browsing, personal business, etc. The difference is that we are self aware about it, but a lot of people truly think they are working full 8-10 hour days when they aren’t. My own workplace is really male dominated, and they are alllll about face time, but they are constantly chatting in each other’s office. It’s a little frustrating for me because they view flex arrangements with great suspicion. But I don’t think they’re getting a lot of productivity gains from being so focused on “butts in seats”.
2. Somebody mentioned this yesterday, and I agree. A lot of times that I am “not working” at work, things are processing in the back of my mind. By the time I get around to working, I’ve already worked out concepts in my head. So the down time is actually pretty productive from that perspective.
Anon
+1000 to the male/female difference. I’ve noticed that a LOT of men think it’s fine to talk about sports all day, but heaven forbid a woman take 5 minutes to make a call to her kid’s pediatrician.
Random Question
What are the traits you most value in a partner? What would be your deal-breakers in a life partner? What were the issues you think is important to sort with your significant other before committing to forever?
I realize the deal breakers will come up on unexpected issues, no matter how much due diligence you do. But still curious to hear what other r e t t e s consider important for themselves!
Anonymous
I want someone who is kind, thoughtful, and tangibly makes my life better.
Go for it
So.Much.This. If these are not present I’m out.
And must know how to adult.
Go for it
Dealbreakers: the silent treatment, yelling, substance abuse, lack of self direction.
Lilac
My must haves: ethical, environmentalist, child-free, animal lover, vegetable eater, some sort of degree, and professional aspirations that help the world. It worked out pretty good, and my husband is great. But even better he keeps friends with people who hold these values and its affirming to have a community of amazing people.
Anonymous
These are basically mine, without the degree (bf did 3.5 years but dropped out to start his own business). I’ll add some from above too – thoughtful, kind, empathetic.
Anon
My dealbreaker is my best friend’s relationship with her husband – he makes $10 an hour at age 33, has no desire to change jobs, does not contribute to budgeting, has no savings, and regularly blows through the budget she has designed on junk food he buys at the gas station. She is constantly stressed about living beyond their means and is subsidizing their lifestyle with the help of a modest inheritance. It stresses me out just listening to it and I can’t imagine living it. I’m sending her subliminal messages saying “don’t have a kid with him, don’t have a kid with him.”
The more I age, the more it’s become clear to me that I value having an equal partner – someone I love who also pulls his weight and can “adult” without me to hold his hand. My husband and I had a few rocky patches there, but now that we’ve been together over ten years, we’ve hit our stride. The result of us both being able to adult is that we can also just have FUN without being stressed. Unlike my friend, we can go on a spontaneous trip or walk or whatever and just enjoy each other’s company while knowing that everything is in order and that we have each other’s backs. That comfort is really important to me.
Anon
I’m married but I wanted someone who was kind to people and animals, who made me laugh, who valued education and could challenge me intellectually and who was willing to be an equal partner (and parent if and when we had kids). I didn’t have a lot of official dealbreakers. Probably smoking since I hate the smell and have asthma. And post-Trump, I’d say active support for this administration (which would include voting for him, imo). I could be with someone politically conservative, but not someone who supports him, because it would be reflective of such a fundamental difference in values. But I never had any kind of height/weight/education/income requirements when I was dating.
For the issues that are important to sort through before marriage, I think more practical stuff: money, kids, religion, where you’re going to live, relationships with in-laws etc.
Anon
When I was dating (I dated a lot before I met my husband) I found I was really turned off by men who bragged about their success. I remember meeting a guy whose response to “tell me about yourself” was “well, I’m a VP..”
So even though I’m the corporate type I was never attracted to my fellow corporate types. I married a musician. ;)
Anon Dater
I’m a corporate type who has recently(ish) started dating a creative type (a chef). It’s been so freeing in so many ways, but is also pushing me way out of my comfort zone in some ways. For example, he recently quit his restaurant job to start something new. He has a plan for the something new, and there’s no real reason it won’t work, other than that starting a new business is generally risky. Any tips about how to calm my anxiety about not following the traditional path? He’s really wonderful and we’ve got a great thing going, so I definitely don’t want to jump ship just because he’s doing something risky.
Anon
Don’t involve your own money in the venture and don’t pay for everything in your dating life together, because that’s a slippery slope, and you’ll be fine!
LaLaLondon
Most value: willing to be an actual equal partner and able to give/take more responsibility around the house depending on needs/time/ability, shares my values/goals, respectful of me and my time but also of everyone he deals with regardless of whether they’re a colleague at work or the clerk at the dry cleaners.
Dealbreakers when I was dating: smoking, pro-life, gambling, not being willing to tolerate a dog, cruelty.
Sort out before marriage: whether/when you’re going to try to have kids and any hardline positions re: childrearing (religion, public vs. private school, etc.), whether/where you want to (or at least are willing to consider) retiring, how much time you want to spend with family/friends,
anon
Among other things, that [s]he cares. Doesn’t matter about what, but must have something that [s]he puts effort in, tries to get better at, pays attention to, and is proud of being interested in. This was something solidified by seeing so much of the opposite in business school – who knew that there were so many people who thought it was lame and uncool to make an effort at literally anything! Can be a job or a hobby or staying up on the news or whatever but I really admire people who value that, has that in his/her own life, and respects it in mine; and realistically could not be in a serious relationship without that mentality.
Anonymous
He has to be able to put dinner on the table without playing 20 questions with me. I don’t care if it’s take out, or sandwiches from the gas station, or a home cooked meal, but he has to be able to do stuff like this with little to no input from me. I am not the manager of the household. It is not my job to feed/clothe/clean for two people or to nag someone else into doing stuff for the two of us. If he sees something that needs doing then he needs to just do it – not wait for me to do it or to nag him to do it.
Basically, I don’t want to be with someone who makes my life harder. The amount of housework I have to do as a single person should decrease, not increase, when I move in with another adult.
Senior Attorney
I had a list… hard to remember now, but it went something like:
Be kind
Be smart
Be reasonably age appropriate
Be reasonably financially appropriate
Be physically compatible
Make things happen
Dealbreakers are yelling and the silent treatment. And yes, these days being a Trumpist would be a dealbreaker. When Lovely Husband and I started dating he was (the first) Republican (I’d ever dated) but he switched parties when Trump was nominated.
Senior Attorney
And by “make things happen,” I mean what Anonymous at 11:35 a.m. and LaLaLondon describe — be a real partner and do what needs to be done, as well as coming up with fun things on his own.
Anonymous
Must be an independent adult whose life is not dominated by his parents and siblings.
S
Sounds cliche, but someone who inspires me to be the best version of myself and supports me in that goal, and vice versa. It becomes a virtuous cycle.
Anon
I want somebody who is on my team in life (and obviously somebody whose team I would also be on). Also like the first commenter, kind and thoughtful are musts. Deal breakers are any kind of man-child behavior.
Another anon
A good person who treats others well
Emotionally mature (doesn’t pick fights, can handle their moods without making them my problem, doesn’t expect me to make them happy, can disagree with me in an adult manner, etc.)
Intelligent
Intellectually curious
Supportive of my career and me/my goals generally
Not religious
Physical chemistry
Reasonably physically active
Wants to live a similar lifestyle (urban, active social life)
Doesn’t want more than 1 kid (no kids ideal)
Makes enough money that I can continue to have my existing standard of living without subsidizing him (this became important to me after some dating experiences where this was not the case)
Dealbreakers: Basically anything that is the opposite of the above. Not a good person, prefers to spend evenings watching TV, yells and calls me names when upset, wants 4 kids in the suburbs, picks at me for working late, etc.
Anon
Any rec for comfortable shoe store in NYC? My favorite in DC was Comfort One Shoes. Haven’t been able to find anything similar in NYC yet.
rosie
Harry’s on the UWS? Hopefully they’re not closed, it’s been a while.
Tip Top Shoes
Tip Top Shoes — 155 W. 72nd
NYC ladies please chime in but I believe it’s by a great Jewish deli. I found it as a tourist (from DC) en route to the deli from Strawberry Fields.
Anonymous
Tip Top Shoes!
Anon
I’m catching up on yesterday’s thread about issues with a SIL.
What really struck me were some of the comments getting at “smug marrieds”, and people getting defensive about being single. I’m happily married, but being married is not like you’ve won a prize. It’s hard work and comes with a lot of great things but also its own set of stressors. I agree that we should be more sensitive to people who are still single, but I also think that we should respect the fact that when you get married you lose control over a lot of things, and that can be very challenging as well. So let’s all be more sympathetic to each other!
I also just have to add — the suggestion that the OP should go sit in her room when her sister in law invites herself over for dinner once a week is completely absurd. OP, please ignore that completely. That is so repressive. You are entitled to your feelings. Personally, I agree that once a week is a bit too often. But even if you were completely unreasonable, you should never have to banish yourself from your own living space.
Anonymous
Omg srsly? No one was coming after married people or saying marriage wasn’t hard. Her post was really rude about her sister in law’s single status, and just about everyone agreed that if once a week is too much, she should talk to her husband about saying no more often.
Anon
You’re kind of proving the point. OP wasn’t commenting on SIL being single — she was commenting on SIL inviting herself over all the time. If SIL was married but still inviting herself over all the time, it would be the same thing.
Anonymous
No, that’s literally not at all what happened. OPs entire post was full of digs at SIL for being single.
Anonymous
No. OP is lucky to have good extended family. She should put more value in how her SIL feels and not treat her like a dog. Why is it ok to disregard how SIL feels? Clearly, she’s lonely. OP needs to be more compassionate to SIL and not make SIL feel bad for being alone in life.
Anonymous
I am so sick of women being told that we are responsible for everyone else’s feelings.
anon
Eyeroll. This isn’t a woman thing, it’s a have compassion for your family thing.
Anonymous
No, Anonymous @ 10:08 is saying that OP’s feelings are less important than SIL’s, and she should just suck it up and let SIL come to dinner every week. If you are an introvert, having people visit your home can be very, very stressful.
anon
The letters must look different on your screen then they do to mine. Do you people want being an introvert to be covered under the ADA or something? We get it. You’re precious.
Anon
+1 It’s not a woman thing.
Anon
Only if you value relationships. If you don’t value relationships, don’t worry about others’ feelings.
Yesterday’s OP basically said “it’s too bad we have to be her family”. That’s pretty insulting.
Anonymous
I mean, this cuts both ways. If OP is not supposed to give any regard to SILs feelings and SIL must cope with her feelings of loneliness (or whatever) by herself without help and support, then OP must cope with her feelings about her husband seeing SIL too often without any help and support. Most of us do expect help from others to manage our feelings, at least some of the time.
Equestrian attorney
But people can be compassionate without letting someone take over their life. My BIL is also unmarried and clearly struggling with depression – and possibly something more severe. He is also extremely difficult to be around. I tread a fine balance between encouraging DH to reach out to him (because we both care) but not too much (because we have our own needs to and being around him a lot is…trust me, it’s complicated). If he was at my home at least once a week, I would absolutely lose it. And ultimately, while I think we should both do our best to support his brother (or my relatives for that matter), my first duty is to him and his to me (and to our kids if we have any). That’s my vision of marriage, and I think a lot of people feel the same way.
Wow
Your situation is not at all like the OP’s situation. The OP said that she liked SIL and enjoyed spending time with her. No mention of any issues either.
Anon
I think the clear difference in your situation is extenuating circumstances of a relative dealing with mental health who you don’t like to be around. Poster from yesterday by her own admission said there was nothing wrong with her SIL and she liked her as a person – she just didn’t want her around for no real clear reason other than “she’s not my family” even though she is Husband’s family (which is a whole nother discussion issue that people took up). I don’t think the comparison is fair.
Anon
K, thanks for the lecture.
Anon
Sorry I was replying to the original commenter
Anon
I agree that seeing a sibling once a week is probably ok with many people, but I also think you can’t just make a generic statement that OP is responsible for the lonely, single SIL (not saying lonely and single are synonymous but you seem to feel the SIL is both). What if the lonely sister wanted to come over every night? I think most of us would find that excessive and very difficult to deal with. Just because someone is your family doesn’t mean you can’t draw boundaries.
anon
“but I also think you can’t just make a generic statement that OP is responsible for the lonely, single SIL” —-No one made that statement.
“Just because someone is your family doesn’t mean you can’t draw boundaries.”
No one said this either.
Anon
Let’s not rehash the whole conversation and what so and so meant. We all get it, each type of life choice, whether married, single, in a relationship, with kids without kids, employee v. business owner etc. comes with their own sets of challenges and positives and we should respect the way others live their lives if they aren’t hurting anyone. That’s not a controversial thing to say.
anon
I think you misread a lot of the comments. It wasn’t really a smug married v. single thing. People were reacting to the harshness of the proposition– made directly or implied by several commenters– that a single person has no immediate family/that the brother is no longer her immediately family and therefore she is not worthy of concern. One person stated that single people cannot “co-opt” other people’s families. Like, what? Did I stop being my sister’s sister when she got married? Is coming over for dinner once a month co-opting? How about a yearly visit? Just ridiculous. And the immediate assumption that because SIL and husband were discussing their plans for kids that she was being inappropriately intrusive. I’m as adamant as anyone that no one is entitled to an opinion on what I do with my uterus and I do not make comments on what other people do with theirs, but don’t people just discuss these things with people they care about? I talk with my sister about it just because I care and she wants to share what’s going on in her world with me. Same with my friends. That whole dumpster fire of a thread– in particular, OP– was just a failure to assume good intentions.
cbackson
Yeah, whenever issues like this come up, the threads are often similar. Ultimately, I think that people have VERY different ideas about what “family” means, what kind of relationships and responsibilities to each other family members should have, and how that should be discussed – and people lean hard into the position that their way of being a family is the “right” way. It’s also true that many people assume that their emotional relationships to family are indicative of everyone’s (which means people with emotionally healthy families often don’t understand other people’s needs for stronger boundaries, and people who aren’t emotionally intimate with siblings or parents find the closeness other families have to be claustrophobic or unsafe). You see it every time we have conversations about taking care of parents (financially or otherwise), living at home as an adult, etc.
The truth is that OP and her husband sound like they have different family cultures and they need to talk about it, not through a lens of whether husband’s way of being a family is “right,” but rather from the perspective of figuring out what will work for them.
IHHtown
Nail on the head here, thank you!
Shopaholic
This is exactly it. To be honest, I found some of those comments (that a single person has no immediate family) to be harsh and hurtful but upon reflection, it made me thankful that my friends and family have never once made me feel like I’m intruding, whether I’m over for dinner or on vacation.
Everyone has their own understanding of family but I think some of the strong responses yesterday were in response to some of the seemingly harsh comments.
S
This is very insightful and actually helped me in how I’m thinking about my reactions to my husband’s family…
Anonymous
A lot of commenters expressed a sentiment that once a person is married, that person must devote themselves to their spouse to the exclusion of all others (“protect the nuclear”). That worldview in which single people cannot expect to get love and support from married people when they need it creates the antagonism towards married people. Married people who refuse to address that problematic worldview (created by married people) and the challenges it poses for single people by saying that marriage has its own challenges, are “smug marrieds”. SIL losing her primary support system because her brother gets married seriously, seriously whomps. SIL can’t will herself to be married so that she can access the type of exclusive support OP expects to enjoy.
Anon
Honestly, I think that “protect the nuclear” thing is a little out of whack with most family cultures, at least in stable families (toxic or unhealthy relationships aren’t a good comparison). Whoever posted that is getting “protect the nuclear” confused with “extended family relationships are secondary to the marital and child relationships”. That phrasing and attitude is extremely “us v. them” and assumes bad intentions and harm from extended family – I’m going to assume the poster who added that has hostile and nonsupportive familial relationships. Stable healthy families who are close support one another and enjoy each other’s company. Yes, you can have a stable healthy families who aren’t close but that’s not the situation with yesterday’s poster’s husband and sister.
I don’t think this is a case of “married smugs v singles” among the commenters (for yesterday’s poster it seems to be) but a case of having incredibly different ideas of what family means between a husband and wife. I honestly don’t know how yesterday’s poster made it to marriage let alone kids with this level of incompatibility when it comes to views on family. But one thing that you can’t do is impose your limited views on family onto anyone else, including our significant other – at a certain point you’re isolating the S.O. from their support system which we all know is the start of an abuse cycle.
Anon
So I’m not the person who used the phrase “protect the nuclear” yesterday, but I would definitely say I share that attitude. But to me, “protect the nuclear” simply means your spouse and your children are your priority above all else. It doesn’t mean that you don’t love and support other family members. I would be fine with my husband having dinner with his sister weekly if she lived locally, and I would probably join them a fair amount of the time. I would certainly describe my parents, parents-in-law and siblings-in-law as family, albeit not nuclear family. But sometimes protect the nuclear does mean making decisions that other family members don’t like. It may mean you don’t provide financial support to your aging parents if it would interfere with your ability to save for you and your spouse’s retirement appropriately. It may mean you don’t let family members visit your home for weeks at a time if your spouse isn’t enthusiastic about it. It may mean if your husband’s sister is monopolizing so much of his time that it’s interfering with his role as a husband and father you ask him to take a step back from that relationship. There is a huge range between setting zero boundaries with non-nuclear family and completely cutting them off. Personally, I would not have married someone who expected his parents to live with us, or wanted to provide his family members financial support at the expense of our desired lifestyle. I don’t think that makes me a terrible person. I realize many people don’t have the same values, but I chose to marry someone who does.
I grew up in a very, loving, stable, happy family. Fwiw, I’m culturally Jewish but I think the “protect the nuclear” attitude is more common in WASPy American families. Southerners and recent immigrants to the US seem to (generally) have different attitudes.
Anon Lawyer
I’m single, but this all seems fair to me. I was thinking about this letter yesterday because last year I moved to the same city as my brother and his family and my parents after living 3,000 miles away for a decade. To me, it’s been a big gain to spend time with my brother and niece regularly – and I hope it’s a gain for them as well. Isn’t it good for kids to have more loving adult relatives in their lives? I babysit for her and we always have fun, so I feel like it’s a win-win.
I probably see my brother about every other week, often for brunch. My SIL often doesn’t join – I don’t think it’s that she doesn’t like me; I think she takes advantage of having my brother and niece out of the house to get some along time/work time in, which seems like it works for everyone.
Anon
This is where I land too. My parents and siblings are still family! And my husbands parents are family! But we prioritize our nuclear family over our non-nuclear family when there are conflicts.
Before getting married, we made sure we were on the same page in terms of family expectations. We love our families and spend a lot of time with them but we are both against ever living with family for example. I don’t think I would have married someone who expected that his parents would ever move in with us.
Julie
OP from yesterday here. I really was just complaining to the internet with my posts. It’s nuts how some people interpreted me. I don’t judge my SIL for being single. I also don’t think it’s strange that I like her a lot, but don’t want to host her for dinner every week!
I probably could have explained myself better yesterday, but oh well. I appreciate the folks who pointed out that I could focus on how SIL helps us out when we need her. I think that’s a good point. I think I am an introvert.
Julie
OP from yesterday once more:. I should add that I’m adjusting. SIL had lived a few hours away, but a year ago she moved to our town to be near us. So things have totally changed in how often we see her. And since she moved here to be near us once we started having kids, it’s hard to set boundaries too hard. But it’s a little much for me. I’m exhausted already by work and kids.
Huh
If she was moving to be near you, you could have had a conversation with your husband about how often you would see her. That seems like a natural point of discussion when family moves close by. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but clearly once a week is too much for you so you should discuss with your husband. You could also suggest that husband and SIL go out on their own once in a while. That doesn’t replace her coming to see you all at your home though. I’m glad that you’re adjusting and I hope you continue to do so — your SIL moved to be near you, it is natural and normal that she wants to spend time with you.
Anon Lawyer
So I just commented above but wouldn’t it make sense to send your husband and kids off with SIL and take that time for some alone time? She gets to build relationships with her nieces and nephews, you get some time off, everyone is happy?
Anonymous
If you were a 50-something single woman of modest means buying your first home, what would you want to receive as a housewarming gift? She’s a very dear friend of mine and I’m stumped. I’m not local, so it needs to be something I can ship/order online. Not alcohol.
Gift idea
If she has a yard, a wildflower seed bomb.
Lavinia
A gift card to Home Depot or Target.
Flats Only
This. The newly purchased home will produced a laundry list of little wants, and having an expanded budget to take care of them will be very nice.
Anonymous
+10000 this is the perfect gift.
Senior Attorney
Yep. This this this this this.
BabyAssociate
If you think she would be into it, plants! Check out The Sill.
Never too many shoes...
What about a gift card to somewhere like Lowe’s or Home Depot so she can buy something that she needs?
AttiredAttorney
Yes, Home Depot or Lowes, a cleaning service gift certificate, or some new home essentials that could be purchased off amazon and shipped directly to her (those plastic “zippers” for clearing drains, picture hanging hooks, felt pads for furniture legs to protect hardwood floors, drawer liners, etc).
SC
+1. We spent about $500 at Home Depot and Lowes within a month of moving to our new house. It’s slowed down some, but we’re still there at least once a month.
asdf
Amateur. Our first credit card bill after moving was equal to my monthly salary. We moved from a modern condo to an old house and it was a big shift.
Anon
Gift card to Target!
Anonymous
I’m not sure why “modest means” is important here, but if you have far more money than she does . . . be generous! A gift certificate to a home store or hardware store, etc. like others have suggested. if you know her tastes, a gift certificate to a store or website where she could buy furnishings, curtains, curtain rods, area rugs, linens, etc.
Anon
I assumed modest meant a smaller home (so do not want to add clutter) or less able to throw a bunch of money at the house outside of the purchase and necessities.
I agree a Home Depot gift card is the way to go. She doesn’t have to get “home fixing” stuff there, they also sell all types of garden tools, light bulbs, cleaning supplies, and home décor. They even sell furniture online.
Anon
A gift card to Target. I know everyone recommends Home Depot, but you can get a lot of home improvement stuff at Target and I like their politics more :P
Laura B
+1 I’d be more excited to receive a Target gift card than a Home Depot gift card. Home Depot is more useful for home improvement, but Target is more fun for home decor. It’s easier for me to use my own money on the Home Depot home improvement stuff than to buy fun pillows at Target – so for a gift, I’d rather get a Target one.
Legally Brunette
I would buy a gift card to the home-related store closest to her home. I have a Target gift card sitting around for years because I don’t have a store near me.
Anon
Can’t you order online?
Anon
How have you had a Target gift card sitting around for years? Even if you don’t want to splurge on anything fun, can’t you order some pet food or non-perishable groceries on a recurring basis? They have subscription services now just like Amazon.
Anon
This may be harder to find but our realtors’ closing gift to us was a day of a handyman’s time and it was The Best. It was probably more than you’re looking to spend but maybe 2 hours of a handyperson’s time?
Senior Attorney
Yes, or a cleaning service if the realtor didn’t arrange for that.
Anon100
For practical things – a nice toolkit and power drill and/or stepladder. My parents gifted me those when I bought my house and these things have been extremely useful since the several years since.
For fun things – plants! Giftcards! Art to put on walls! Giftcard to a furniture store, be it Ikea or Crate & Barrel, etc either to upgrade furniture or to buy new furnishings.
anon
a cute self-inking return address stamp with her new address.There are so many cute designs on etsy!
Anon
Do you have creative outlets, activities that give you joy and don’t necessarily serve a “practical” function? How did you come to find them or fall in love with them? Did you make a concerted effort to have such interests outside of work (or other obligations)?
I’m constantly on the search for interests outside of the biglaw grind — and have enjoyed but not fallen in love with some activities — but sometimes it feels like work in itself, like I’m just trying out different hobbies because I “should” have a life outside of biglaw. Add to that the research from Dr. Brene Brown (I’m a fan) that the Wholehearted people play and are creative, and sometimes it feels like I’m creating yet another shame spiral for me, like my life is not fun or interesting enough … or something.
Anonymous
I do now (dancing) but for a long time I didn’t really anddidnt feel at all bad about a life of working hard, good books, time with friends and family, and cooking. If it’s a chore, it’s not a hobby!
anon
I absolutely consider reading books my hobby.
Never too many shoes...
Live music. Not necessarily a famous band either – just find a cool venue where you live and listen to whomever is playing. It always leaves me feeling more inspired and open to life.
Housecounsel
None whatsoever. A friend and I were talking about how we really aren’t sure what we like to do. All of our time outside of work is spent doing kid sports and activities; i.e. a three-day tournament out of town this weekend. I have a few years left, but when all the kids are up and out I will have to figure out what it is I actually enjoy.
Anonymous
Oufffff
Anon
Try thinking about the things you enjoyed doing when you were younger (like high school and earlier) but fell out of your life for whatever reason. I’ve enjoyed getting back into those things more than I’ve enjoyed trying to pick up new hobbies. I like learning new things but for some reason new hobbies haven’t held my attention or brought me as much joy as the things I did when I was younger. I wonder if it’s partially because when I was younger I did things that I innately enjoyed and didn’t care about what hobbies were cool. Also, if you’re happy not having hobbies, don’t let people make you feel like you have to have cool hobbies! Do you!
anon
Agree with this ^
Is there anything you wanted to do as a kid that your parents said “no” to because it was too expensive or too much of a hassle? Try something related to that.
Wanted an easy bake oven? Go take a baking class! Wanted a pony? Riding lessons! The world is your oyster.
emeralds
I like this approach. I haven’t had much luck picking up totally-new hobbies in adulthood, but it’s really nurtured my soul to reconnect with things like a regular writing practice that had fallen by the wayside while I was getting my professional life figured out.
Things I do currently that I love, that are totally not practical: reading for pleasure, writing.
Things I wish I could get back to doing, but that just don’t seem to happen: painting.
I’ll also say that it’s easy for me to fall into a trap of, “well, I’ve worked hard all day, I exercised, I made dinner, I walked to dog, don’t I deserve to veg out in front of the TV and do nothing?” and sometimes I definitely do that. But I’ve found that once I establish the discipline of regularly reading, or writing (or whatever), I feel a lot better. This sounds so hokey, but it nurtures my soul in a way that watching Office reruns and f*cking around on my phone just never will.
Aanon
I never thought about it this way but it has turned out that way for me too. As a kid, I always wanted to be athletic and musical. Now I spend my non-work/relationship/household hours on performing music and fitness, largely running. Learning, practicing and training takes a lot of time and discipline but I get a great sense of accomplishment from improving and have made some of my best friends this way.
Kira
This was also what I was told in therapy. When you are looking for a hobby that gives you a break from your life think of things that you enjoyed as a kid.
anon
I read for fun. I’ve never really taken joy in or been good at creative or crafty hobbies. Reading doesn’t feel like a “to do” item for me. It’s easy to fit into my schedule. I only read about one book a month while in law school, Big Law, and the early years of motherhood. I made more effort to get back into reading a couple of years ago, when my kid was a toddler and I had switched to job with a more forgiving schedule. Now I try to read about a book a week (although I’m behind this year).
Anon
Also second the reading for fun. I try to read a fiction book, and often it’s something that’s a “beach read” (think “Crazy Rich Asians” the book series). Plot isn’t too complicated so even if you have a long time before you can pick back up again, it’s all good, and when you can only read a few pages, that’s okay too.
Anon
There’s something very circular about feeling bad about not having fun things to do, as if doing fun things is just another obligation to add to your list.
My suggestion is to be open to things and don’t try to hard to make it happen. For instance I recently spent a year intentionally saying yes to all invitations and suggestions that I could possibly accept, and it got me out of a bit of a rut. I’m not necessarily suggesting you do exactly that, as reflexively saying no to things was my personal issue, but just the idea of being open to what comes along was really freeing and I suggest something along those lines.
Laura B
Around six years ago I really deliberately went about figuring out my own hobbies/outside activities. I felt like I had dedicated a ton of time to finishing school, starting a career, getting married and settled in our first home, and everything got to a point where it had settled out and I didn’t know what to do with myself. I hated being asked what I liked to do because I felt like I had no hobbies aside from reading and antique shopping (and I wasn’t super excited about talking about them). My husband, on the other hand, has tons and isn’t shy about dedicating time or money to them (not outside our means). So I took a cue from him and started trying things. Pilates and adult ballet classes, joining a community organization, yoga classes, then yoga teacher training, running for/being elected to a small government board, 10 day meditation retreat, skydiving, skydiving license, writing a book. Some things stuck (yoga, teaching yoga, meditation, community volunteering) and some things didn’t (ballet classes, didn’t finish skydiving license, aren’t working on that book :)) – but I feel much more engaged and fulfilled now. Current things on my radar I want to try are canning (tomato sauce, applesauce, strawberry jam) and gardening.
Anon
I read, hike, backpack/camp, ski, bike, and ride horses. I occasionally run, rock climb, bake, write, or work on photography. I would quit working if I won the lottery and focus exclusively on hobbies, including travel, and I view them as some of the most important parts of my life. My husband and I do many of them together and the quality of the together time is so, so, SO much better than when we’re vegging out in front of the TV.
I credit my childhood for my lifelong interest in sports and hobbies. I’m really glad my parents brought us along on their hobbies and got us used to DOING stuff instead of consuming stuff (very strict screentime limits, etc., although this was pre-iPhone days). I truly think that habits can last a lifetime if you pay attention and don’t let yourself slip into the easier gratification of TV and Internet surfing.
Anonymous
All of this, and what Laura B said above. Not to reignite the kids and hobbies debate, but I was overwhelmed and hit pause on a lot of my hobbies when I had infants. I’ve re-added lots of the active/outdoorsy ones in a toned-down, family-friendly way, but I also have gone back to very intentionally carving out me time to do things I love and give new stuff a try. It is worth the bother to make time for it in my life.
I love to read, and joined two book clubs to get me out of my comfort zone genres. I am a decent amateur pianist and have recently gotten into chamber music; I was in band and orchestra in school and I didn’t realize how much I missed playing music with other people until I started doing it again. I always wanted to learn to dance, and this year I finally got over my own self-consciousness and started taking ballet. I plan to give ballroom a try next year.
I still spend too much time watching TV and internet surfing, but it’s usually a choice rather than out of boredom.
Gail the Goldfish
I ride, do yoga, and have been working on improving my photography skills. I have been riding since I was a kid, but never had a horse as a kid (because $$). Finally had enough money as an adult and bought myself one. Photography was something I picked up recently because if you ask me what I would do if skill was not an obstacle, one of the answers has always been National Geographic photographer, so I decided to buy a decent camera and work on it (this has also resulted in walking/hiking as a side hobby to find things to take pictures of). Yoga because I randomly tried a class at my gym on a whim about a year and a half ago and lucked into a great teacher (who sadly no longer teaches). I had tried yoga before but hadn’t had a good class/teacher; this one made me like it enough to keep doing it even after he quit teaching. I used to read a lot for fun, but am finding time a bit short between work, the horse, and gym time, so it takes me way longer to get through a book than it used to.
Anon
How is your new horse working out?
Gail the Goldfish
Delightfully! We’re doing our first show next month (first time I’ve shown since college. It’s going to be interesting). Itty-bitty crossrail jumpers because she’s an off-the-track thoroughbred, the jumper classes are in a field, and we’re still working on not running at jumps ( yes, I bought a project horse, otherwise I would get bored:-) ).
Anon
Sounds awesome :) Good luck at the show!!
Anon
On your photography hobby, what do you do with your photos? I’m getting back into photography too but am not sure what to do with my pictures. I’ll only print a few of them, so what do I do with the others?
Gail the Goldfish
Instagram. And for the ones from trips, I make photo albums. Some I print out and hang in my office. I have every intention of making a photo album for each year for the non-trip pictures, but that hasn’t happened yet.
Anon
I love this question. I realized sometime in college that I needed to have an artistic outlet and to be creating something (anything). It was important to balance the analytical and intangible parts of the rest of my life. That need has taken many different forms over the years but mainly includes crocheting and baking. I like making stuff and then giving it to other people–baby gifts, treats for neighbors, holiday presents, community art installations. I’ve even sold some things.
Crocheting and baking are two things I have always loved and always circle back to. They are cheap and easy. They don’t take a ton of time and while I can see growth in proficiency, it also doesn’t matter if something is a failure. The major bonus is that they keep me from a lot of mindless scrolling on my phone. I love that my kids see me doing something creative that I love in my down time.
Anon
I look to my aunt for inspiration. I’m sure this list isn’t comprehensive, but she sings in a choral group, reads, sails, rode horses for years, cross-stitches, sews, makes ornaments, goes to dance class every single day, skis, travels, paints in the fine arts style (remarkably well), and more. I don’t know if she ever made six figures in her life (I don’t think so) and sailing, perhaps the most expensive hobby, was enabled by her late husband who already owned a boat, but she has always, always prioritized hobbies in her budget. She owns a smartphone, but regularly leaves it at home. I aspire to be her one day!
Anon
Oh also, she plays guitar well and played the piano well into her 50s, although I don’t think she’s played since then. She’s almost 70.
The original Scarlett
I’m huge on creative outlets – I do photography, write a weekly newsletter, do social media/marketing for a few accounts, all very not my day job. I love having other things to learn about and think about.
AttiredAttorney
Any recommendations for tour guides, private tour companies, or even resort experiences in Kenya? Just decided I’m going to go over an extra week early for a work trip, and now stumped on what I want to fill my time with during that week.
Gail the Goldfish
Go over the border the Tanzania and use Access2Tanzania for a safari (can recommend the serengeti, ngorongoro crater, and tarangire park. Lake Manyara is skippable with only a week). Used them for my honeymoon and they are excellent. I think they can also help arrange a Kenya & Tanzania safari if you want to do both countries (The Serengeti and Maasai Mara are the same ecosystem, just on different sides of the border. The Serengeti is a considerably larger park)
Gail the Goldfish
Oh, and I don’t know if it’s the same for Kenya (I suspect it is), but my general safari advice for Tanzania: don’t go through a large international travel company like &Beyond or Abercrombie & Kent. Go with a more local company (the TripAdvisor forums are super helpful for picking a good one). The international companies just subcontract out to the local ones anyway and you can get the same experience for cheaper. Access2Tanzania was a good compromise because it’s a joint US-Tanzania company so you can send a check or use a credit card in the US without having to wire money abroad but was still much cheaper than some of the quotes i got from the large travel companies.
Anonymous
We went on safari last year (in Tanzania and Kenya) and booked through Thompson, who were an excellent resource. They helped make all the arrangements, including non-safari stops on our trip — dinner and sights in Nairobi, travel arrangements to/from the game reserve, and a few days in Zanzibar at the end. Strongly recommend using a travel agent for this kind of trip.
Outside of that, we stayed at the Kicheche Valley Camp and it was AMAZING. Private game reserve, super friendly camp. They do communal dinners with all of the guests and we literally made friends we still talk to a year later from different parts of the world. Also worth noting that there were two different solo women staying there at the time, and they were integrated in to all of the group dynamics wonderfully.
Senior Attorney
Can’t speak to Kenya specifically but I have had very good luck with tours by locals dot com on several continents.
Anon
I went on safari with Thompson Safaris in Tanzania and Mara Intrepids in Kenya in the Masai Mara. I also did Kilimanjaro with Thompson before the safari. I really like Thompson’s philosophy of giving back to the community, but I liked Mara Intrepids better for the safari portion. Its an all inclusive safari “camp” with guides. A friend in Nairobi turned me on to it. Highly, highly recommend.
https://www.heritage-eastafrica.com/maraintrepids/hotel-overview.html
AttiredAttorney
Ah Mara Intrepids looks amazing but is booked the week we will be there! Will look into Thompson. If your friend in Nairobi has any other recs, I’d love to hear!
Anonymous
We used Cheli and Peacock for our safari in Tanzania. I highly recommend them.
Anon
I think I still perfer full length pants.
Ducky36
Yes, this length looks unprofessional.
Anon
Nope. It does not.
Horse Crazy
TV in the bedroom – yes or no? We had one in there for a while, but it crapped out and we didn’t replace it. Now we have gotten a new one for the living room and are trying to decide if we should put the other one back in the bedroom. It’s been kind of nice not having one in there, but sometimes I’m laying in bed and wishing there was one there. What do you all think?
Anonymous
Never.
Anon
Watching TV in bed is one of my favourite things in the world, so I vote yes.
Anon
The best compromise I’ve seen is putting the TV in a closable cabinet so the room isn’t “TV” focused when you’re not watching and watching TV becomes an active intentional event instead of a mindless drone in the background.
I have a TV in my bedroom (sadly not in a cabinet, as an existing dresser takes up too much space) and rarely use it, but it helps that the colors around it are dark to help it blend in as “general furniture”(dark furniture and darker colored home décor – with white walls, no goth here).
The original Scarlett
I adore watching TV from my bed. I know it violates all the sleep rules, but I don’t care. #teamtvinbed
AnonInfinity
I hate having a tv in the bedroom, both because it affects my sleep and because I just don’t want much tv at all.
Anon
This depends on your particular set up, but I feel like with technology these days you don’t really need one, especially if you aren’t going to use it much. Between being able to watch Netflix, Amazon Prime, and live TV on my Comcast app I often find myself just watching TV on my iPad when I’m in my kitchen (where there is no TV) & even sometimes in my bedroom (where there even is a TV but oddly the iPad can seem easier).
Caveat if you and someone else want to watch together this might not be ideal.
Anonymous
We don’t because DH hates them in the bedroom but I would like one for when we want to watch something (E.g. game of thrones) where I don’t want the kids sneaking downstairs and accidentally seeing something violent or otherwise inappropriate. Our bedroom door has a lock but lower floor is open concept. Usually I just grab the old baby monitor and plug it in so I hear little people open their doors.
Go for it
Nope. Never.
Senior Attorney
I love it but Hubby hates it so we compromise by having one we almost never watch. ;)
Anonymous
We just received a small TV setup from my dad (my parents just moved and didn’t have a place for it; he didn’t really ask if we wanted it, just showed up with it to our house and we didn’t want to hurt his feelings). We set it up in the bedroom and honestly, I did not think I would like it but I’ve used it for two purposes I’ve found really helpful: playing workout videos so I can work out in my bedroom (best place for it in the house) and watching stuff my husband and son hate, like Claws. (Love that show.) We don’t turn the TV on every day and I definitely do not want to watch TV before bed. We don’t have cable/live TV so it’s harder to mindlessly browse and watch “whatever’s on” – maybe that makes a difference.
Anon
Not for me!
Never too many shoes...
Love it – winter nights snuggled up either alone with my husband or with our son are the best.
Inspired By Hermione
I barely watch TV. Maybe once every six months. It’s in my room because I didn’t want to take up valuable floor space in my living room. I should probably just sell it, honestly, but I like having it to watch the four DVDs I like that aren’t always available to stream.
Anon
Nope. Never. And we watch a lot of TV. But that’s not what the bedroom is for
Anon
Anyone want to create through comments here a communal list on the best ways for single people to meet potential partners? The result could be a list of ideas that single people can take and use to help them feel like they are doing everything they can to meet someone (yes, super type a here, lists are the best). I’m unhappily single and feel stuck. Dating apps seem like the only way to meet people and they aren’t working for me. I’d like to do more to find someone but I don’t know what else to do.
Anonymous
Why do you rob banks?
Because that’s where the money is.
Go where the money is.
Anon
I would check out the blog The Happy Talent. I love her other non-dating advice, but I’ve seen a lot of great dating advice over the years too. There are great tips on developing charisma, meeting people at hobbies, handling common dating conundrums, etc.
cbackson
I say this with all possible empathy, as someone who was single for 8 years in my 30s and tried every possible way to find someone: nothing anyone could put on any list is going to help you. Unless you’re completely clueless (and I’m sure you’re not), you’re already doing all the things people would advise you to do. There’s not a magic man-finding* trick that you don’t know yet. Coupled people don’t know something that you don’t – or if they do, you’re not going to find that on a list of dating tips. Especially once you’re out of the target-rich age groups, at lot of it is luck. It’s not about trying harder. People really don’t want to admit that, but it’s true.
*or woman-finding, I just liked the alliteration here
Triangle Pose
This is correct. Goodl uck OP!
OP
This is actually helpful, thanks for the perspective. I wish there were more good magical tricks in life.
cbackson
For what it’s worth, I get it. The only actual advice I have is not to hit the pause button on your life because you’re single. Don’t save experiences up until you meet The One. Lean into finding happiness in your life now. Not because that will make you more attractive to men (which is what people often say) but because you only get one life, and this part of it is real and meaningful, and if you’re going to be single either way, better to be single and happy. Personally I found that I was kind of holding back from things that I felt like I couldn’t do until I was coupled – I felt like my life was less real, less valuable, and so I didn’t deserve to, say, go on that vacation/buy that condo/etc. I felt like my singleness was an embarrassment and I had to sort of…live a more restrained life because I was socially imperfect due to my lack of a partner. That was compounding my unhappiness and dissatisfaction. When I stopped doing that, I was a lot happier even though it didn’t seem to affect my dating life. I was relentlessly single from age 30 until a few months ago (I’m 38), and it ended up being the happiest and richest part of my life so far (and I actually worry about adjusting to giving up some of my freedom and independence now that I’m seeing someone).
TL;DR version: your sadness/disappointment is real but you also deserve to have a happy life now whether you’re single or not, so don’t defer your dreams.
Monday
+millions to everything cbackson has said.
January
+1
Anonymous
“I felt like my singleness was an embarrassment and I had to sort of…live a more restrained life because I was socially imperfect due to my lack of a partner. That was compounding my unhappiness and dissatisfaction.” This is one of the most accurate statements i have come across in a long time, that just absolutely rings true for me.
The original Scarlett
I agree with this. I’d add while it’s so incredibly luck based, you can increase your odds by going out with a lot of people on first dates. I used to tell myself I couldn’t win the lottery unless I played the lottery. So bad dates were just scratch off tickets where I didn’t win anything.
Anon
+1
Anon
Thank you so much for the perspective cbakson. I am a longtime reader and frequent anon commenter (especially about dating topics…because, so hard). I am 37, never married, and have just been starting to feel the inklings of “enjoy life now, as is” and to hear it spelled out by someone who has been there is so helpful. Thank you.
Anonymous
– meet new people via trying new activities. If you don’t want to go enlist a friend to join you. A single friend invited me to an ‘intro to mountain biking’ workshop because she didn’t want to go alone. Don’t hestitate to invite married friends – we like to try new stuff too. Neither of us took up mountain biking but it was a fun afternoon. \
– change up your routine – try a different coffee shop or different lunch spot
– tell people you’re looking. I’m married and would not presume to suggest guys I know to a single friend unless they expressly told me they are looking to meet someone.
– be open to different guys. I don’t mean if you’re an active person that you have to make it work with a couch potato but be open to the right guy not looking like you expect that he will. I initally wasn’t into DH because he’s blond, beard, blue eyes and doesn’t like dogs, I thought my type was clean shaven, dark hair, dark eyes and loves dogs. He’s literally the only blond guy I ever dated. We always joke that we would never have met with online dating because I would have scrolled right past.
Anon
I agree with what cbackson said, generally. But as one anecdote – my husband is someone I saw in one of my BFF’s group Facebook photos (this was almost a decade ago now, when people used Facebook for more than memes lol). I said “hey that guy is cute, what’s his deal?” and she didn’t know him very well but knew one of his BFF’s and together they set us up. So if you see a cute guy in your friend’s photos – which would now be posted on Snapchat or Insta I guess – ask her about him!
anonymous
Also agree with cbackson. Also single in my 30s. Also feeling stuck. I remember a thread here a few months ago where people listed how they met their SOs. The diversity and randomness of the situations was striking. It really hammered home for me something that I know but struggle with — what matters is whether you’re open to it. And by truly open, I mean emotionally healthy and available and feeling like yourself, feeling confident and secure. My therapist describes it as having your light on, as if you were a taxi. I personally feel like not only is my light not on right now, but the cab has been wrecked and sold for parts. But that’s why I’m in therapy and not trying to date. Times when my light is on, I connect with men so easily. What having your light on means is amorphous and hard to implement, to my chagrin, and I’m sure different for everyone, but I really think it’s true. The best way I can describe it is how you feel and relate to the world when you’re doing something you really love or maybe with people you can be yourself with and love.
Anonymous
This is such a good analogy. I met DH after finishing therapy the year before. My light was definitely ‘on’ then after being off for a few years.
Anonymous
My spouse died several years ago, but when he asked if I would ever marry again. I said I cannot say never but I was pretty sure it was never – for two divergent reasons. We were very well matched and I doubted that it could be replicated / I missed my independence. My mourning has begun to change to one of gratitude for what I had although I still miss him. I am beginning to enjoy my independent life. But then recently I met someone with whom a spark was shared; for various reasons it will not come to anything but it made very happy.
Ash.
I’d look at advice for how to make friends and apply that to dating as well. I read on the Art of Manliness that the best way to make friends is to join a group that gathers at a set time on a regular basis, where you don’t have to make specific plans to show up, but all the members of the group are just there. That’s why it’s so easy to make friends in school and at work — you’re all already gathered together. Non-work adult analogues to this are things like church, regular exercise classes or groups, boards of organizations, book clubs, sports leagues, and the like. Basically, just start showing up where the same people regularly are, and maybe you’ll make a connection with someone there.
Anon
My husband and I are both biglaw associates, with a little under $150k in loans left between us (low interest rates around 2.2% because we both refinanced). Our savings is about $80k (outside of $5k in taxable investment accounts and we’ve maxed our our 401ks each year, plus whatever we have in Roths from pre-law school).
I’m feeling a little overwhelmed thinking about whether we should try to wipe the loans out as much as possible in 2 years, vs putting some money in a taxable investment account (note: we’re going to try to do a backdoor Roth later this year) vs. saving for baby. A few things to consider: my husband wants to leave biglaw within the next 2 years, and we’ve been discussing TTC within that same timeframe too; we always plan to keep an emergency fund or some sort.
Anyone have thoughts, or are/were in a similar situation? I wish they taught this in law school…
Anon
Pay down the loans aggressively, save modestly for a baby. Babies just…aren’t that expensive save for childcare. If you want to front load the costs of childcare that’s not a bad idea, but those tackling those loans will free up tons of cash flow and allow for freedom of change in lifestyle that you don’t have right now. If you want to quit, move to the country and raise chickens at modest salaries on a work from home job, you can do that without debt. If both of you are in biglaw, it is entirely feasible to pay those off in one year or less if you live off of one salary (and you’d still have money left over). If it’s just two of you and you can’t live off one big law salary – you might want to start releasing those golden handcuffs now so it won’t be so hard in two years.
Anonymous
Is your current emergency fund 80K or is that your total investments?
anon
What is your HHI, and do you have a clear picture of your current spending patterns?
If I were you, I would 100% focus on the loans. You don’t really need to save for a child, especially if however much you’re paying on your debt could be re-focused to cover childcare costs.
Anonymous
You have enough savings. Keep up with the tax advantaged retirement accounts and focus on your loans.
Anon
I agree you should pay down the loans and not worry about saving for kids. I think kids are actually pretty expensive (not diapers, etc., but our nanny is $70,000 per year) but I also am not someone that would be comfortable paying that out of savings. You’ll need full time childcare for a minimum of 5 years, longer if you have more than one kid, and so I would want to be able to arrange my lifestyle so we can pay childcare out of current income. 5 years of draining down savings would be very nerve-wracking to me.
Anon
I think your comment is useful to give OP food for thought on the type of lifestyle they want to lead when they have a kid. Obviously thoughts and feelings change when the kid arrives, but thinking generally about the sort of expenses you will take is helpful – Childcare (nanny v. au pair v. day care v. grandmother is the daily caregiver v stay at home mom), child accessories (ex. changing table v. changing mat on the floor, new clothes v. second hand, cloth v. disposable diapers).
All the above to say, child costs vary greatly and people do it very differently at very different costs – at Biglaw a $70k a year nanny is affordable (but barely) and expensive, outside of big law that’s often not a reasonable expense so $24k a year for day care may make more sense (don’t get into the costs of day care it can swing from $1k to 3 or 4k per month depending on area we all know that). Not including medical costs as that will be a constant depending on your insurance situation.
Anon
(OP) Yes, I find it a very helpful comment! It’s something my husband and I have talked about, and we change our minds all the time, especially on childcare arrangements. And without having kids yet, it’s hard to know how I’ll feel about full-time vs. part time (caveat that I’ve seen and heard that part-time at a firm is not really part time…) as well.
Anon
(OP) $80k is what we have in our checking and savings accounts that we use to pay our bills and rent each month (we buy everything on credit card and pay off each month). Our total retirement + taxable brokerage is about $120k right now, and we plan to max out 401k this year, along with doing an IRA (or backdoor roth). I found a savings account that pays 2.2% so the bulk of that $80k is in there.
Our HHI is $475k before bonus, in a HCOL area. I’ve been using mint to try to figure out our spending patterns: outside of rent, the highest expenses are just buying airplane tickets to visit family out of state maybe a few times a year if we can manage, and then groceries because I prefer to meal prep our lunches instead of spending at the cafeteria or eating out. We’ve been cutting back on eating out and misc. expenses like regular manis/pedis.
As first anon noted, I guess I’m a little scared of childcare costs! I know this is all first world problems, but I come from an immigrant family that struggled growing up, so I’m always concerned about having a cushion I guess?
Anonymous
You have a massive cushion. You are rich. On that income you can pay off your loans in three years without even sacrificing. Just get it done.
Anon
+1
Someone making half a million dollars a year should not be worrying about paying off loans or saving. FFS. I make 10% of what you do in a year and I’m fine.
Anon
To counter this, if they are planning on leaving biglaw they will likely take a pretty substantial pay cut. They also likely have high expenses. I think a lot of people in biglaw fall into the trap of lifestyle inflation and don’t use that time to get super financially secure because the truth is most people leave within 3 years.
That said pay down your loans. You’re doing fine on savings. And not having a loan payment when you have a baby will make childcare expenses less stressful/not as big of a deal. I’d recommend setting up an amount for automatic transfer to your loans. And then once they are paid, keep that automatic transfer into savings. Increase the transfer amount for each salary increase.
Anonymous
What’s your loan payment right now? Is it close to what you’d pay in childcare?
I’d be inclined to take like 40K and throw it against your loans then put your full bonuses in the next couple years against your loans to knock them down asap. Chances of both of you losing your jobs at the same time are pretty slim so the remaining 40K is probably okay for your emergency fund. Ideally, if you can get your loans paid off before your childcare expenses kick in, then you’ll be close to neutral on your budget and you can start ramping up savings again once childcare expenses are less.
Anin
I think your best bet is to sit down with a fee based financial planner. With the lifestyle you’re describing your savings contributions and retirement inputs and child cost fears seem to be out of whack with your income. That money is draining somewhere – I mean without knowing about your specific situation and assuming average spending categories, you could pay off your loans in a year or less.
A financial planner can help you clarify your lifestyle goals and where your money should go to achieve those – I’ve used one who helped us determine retirement options and accounts and how to achieve numerous lifestyle goals simultaneously, including future children, new home, rental home, paying off student loans, car replacement in a few years, emergency fund amounts, etc. and provided us with realistic timelines and monthly dollar allocations for each goal.
Anon
(OP) Thank you for the rec on the financial planner! That sounds really helpful. We’re also concerned with how to save for a down payment in a HCOL area, so I think just getting reassurance and more structured approaches to it all would help.
anon
One thing you could do, this is pretty conservative, is go ahead and arrange your budget to account for childcare (research the cost of nannies or daycares in your area). Do that for a few months so you know what your budget can handle. Then you could later use those saved up funds towards your loans if you don’t have a child yet.
anon
It’s not clear to me by any stretch that you should pay off your loans aggressively. 2.2% is a really low interest rate, even if you can’t deduct the interest. Any investments you have in the stock market should (not guaranteed) far exceed that return, so I wouldn’t move money from retirement/IRAs towards loan payments. Are you saving for a house? It might make sense to pay off more than the minimum, but I would not pay them off aggressively in lieu of other savings. Also, you might consider opening a 529 plan as another way to invest in a tax-deferred account.
Also, what are the terms of your loan? One of the reasons I chose not to pay off my relatively low interest loans is because if I die or become disabled, my loans are cancelled (government loans, no cosigner) – I’d rather invest the money and let my family have it.
Another anon
I agree that it may not make financial sense to pay off such low interest loans quickly. Think about what will bring you peace of mind (which varies).
For me, besides the low interest rate, one reason I don’t try to pay my mortgage faster than necessary is that I prefer to have a cushion so that we could weather something catastrophic, like one spouse becoming ill and the other stopping work to care for the sick one. In that circumstance, I wouldn’t be able to get a loan at favorable rates or possibly at all. But, I can use cash reserves to pay the mortgage and keep things as normal as possible for the kids (not pulling them from expensive daycare) for as long as the cushion lasts. This would be different if I had another source of a safety net (lived in a country with an adequate safety net or if I had sufficient family support available).
emeralds
I know we’ve talked about this before, but does anyone want to give me some advice for supporting a good friend who just had her first baby? We usually text throughout the day, and I can already feel the stress and anxiety coming through my phone. In addition to being a Type A perfectionist, she also has challenging in-laws, a difficult mom, multiple pets, and what I would consider a…not ideal…partner.
Due to various factors I can’t get down to see her before July. In the short term I’m trying to be supportive and encouraging when she texts, and will send a card and flowers (or something similar, if anyone has suggestions) over the weekend. In July I’m planning to offer to schlep down for the weekend with a car full of food/clean her house/tire out the dogs/hold the baby while she naps or showers/entertain her in-laws/whatever.
Is there anything else I can do? She’s the first of my really, really close friends to have a baby.
Anonymous
Nope. Ultimately this is her life to live.
SomethingOtherThanAnon
One of my close friends sent me a mommy care package after I had my first child. Like Sephora goodies. It was my most memorable baby gift since it was something to take care of me, the new mom. I now do that for all the new moms in my life. A little reminder to take care of themselves too. It sounds like maybe your friend could really use that.
How long has it been since she had the baby? The first two weeks it’s really common to have the baby blues. It’s not full blown PPD but more just a reaction to the hormonal changes. Could she maybe be going through that? Having my first baby was the single most shocking time of my life. He was so small, so fragile, how did they let me actually go home with someone so tiny? What did I get myself into? She could be going through a lot of that.
anon
Food delivery, a cleaning service (if she’s open to it) or a gift card to a local grocery store delivery. I wouldn’t do flowers, personally, because it’s just one more thing to deal with it.
S
I sent my first friend to have a baby a really, really nice scented candle she had admired when we were together, but never would have splurged on for herself; she said it was the first gift ‘for her’ as an individual (instead of as a mom, or for the baby) that she got and she cried when she got it. So maybe something pampering like that?
Anon
Send food instead of flowers.
emeralds
Thanks all. I’ll look into grocery store delivery options in her area, and if not get them a night of takeout from somewhere; and look into options to send her a pampering gift or two.
It’s tough, she had the baby last week and I think had some magical thinking going on, like “well once we have the baby we’ll be our own family, and my husband will understand that we need boundaries with the in-laws” and “my mom will understand what I need from her emotionally.” And that hasn’t happened, which I think is going on in the background of any other hormonal changes/baby blues. (To be clear, I would never, ever say any of that to her directly.)
Anonymous
If she’s a perfectionist – keep emphasizing that ‘good enough’ is okay. Does she feel guilty about keeping the dogs in doggy daycare when she’s home on maternity leave? It was good enough when she was working and it’s good enough now.
Part of taking care of the baby is learning how to take care of yourself so that you have energy to care for the baby. That can mean setting boundaries about who is visiting when. Or taking the baby upstairs to nurse and nap when in-laws visit if that’s what she wants to do. If other people are unhappy with her, that doesn’t mean she’s done anything wrong.
Anon
This. I had a group of friends with infants that read together (= mostly group texting) I Thought It Was Just Me (But It Isn’t) by Dr Brene Brown, and while I’m not a mom, it was helpful in understanding my perfectionism.
Anonymous
Send food instead of flowers. Send her texts saying “Thinking about you and what an awesome mom you are! No need to text back, but I’m rooting for you today.”
poiu
+1 I was desperately lonely and overwhelmed after my husband went back to work and I was on maternity leave. Human contact would be much better than a gift.
Anon
Just tell her she is amazing, all the time, and make it specific based on stories she tells you about what she and baby are up to or you see in pictures. People seriously do not think to say this to new parents and the affirmation is so necessary because you are getting nada back from your new baby for first few weeks until they can smile and make eye contact.
Equestrian attorney
Tipping question – I usually get manicures at my local nail salon and always tip. I was staying at a nice hotel this weekend and got my nails done at the hotel spa. I tried to tip at the end of the service and she refused, looking mildly offended, at told me hotel spa services are inclusive of tip. Is this a thing? Does it apply to all services? I was a little thrown because my default assumption is always to tip. I have had massages at nice spas before and they even provided an enveloppe with my masseuse’s name for tips. But this was my first time at a hotel spa.
Anonymous
No that’s not a general thing. Apparently a thing at this particular spa but not remotely a standard practice
Anon
Tipping is standard, the hotel has a different policy. Keep doing what you’re doing, her response was too much for the situation.
SW
I have seen it before, but always in a fairly obvious way (i.e., a sign by the register that says “we are a non-gratuity salon”). In my experience, it is definitely not the case at all hotel spas.
Sam
Any advice for going camping with one elementary school and one preschool aged kid? It’s been over 10 years since I went camping, and never with kids. It will just be one night, there are bathrooms nearby but no electricity or wifi. I think we will skip showering since it’s short.
Planning to go rent a bunch of equipment today from one of the outdoorsy stores – 4 person tent, 4 sleeping bags, cooking stove, chairs, headlamp etc.
What kind of easy foods should I take along? How do we keep everyone fed, comfortable and (somewhat) entertained? I am pretty intimidated by the whole thing so any links to camping 101 websites are also welcome.
Anonymous
Get the kind of sleeping bags that can zip together to form a double. My preschool aged kids have trouble not wiggling out of their sleeping bags overnight so we sleep one adult and one kid in each double sleeping bag.
A pack of wipes is great for quick clean up of hands and faces. Plan for a warm breakfast – something like instant oatmeal is easy and filling.
Ducky36
Take more warm clothes than you think you’ll need. Bring lots of snack foods. Don’t try too hard to make three full meals each day. Bring Wet Ones or baby wipes. Take at least a couple of beach towels. Get a pad to put under your sleeping bag. Make peace with the fact that the kids will be covered in dirt. And have fun!
anon
For food, a pre-made pot of chili in a dutch oven is good and easy – you just heat it up, and you can serve with tortilla chips or cornbread. Tacos are also easy – marinate the meat ahead of time, and cook on the stove. Bring snacks and sandwich materials if you need lunch. (And wine!) Hot chocolate mix or apple cider mix if it will be cool at night. Marshmallows! Will you have a fire?
Anon
Check out REI’s website for tips. My number one (and obvious) tip is don’t skip the s’mores. There’s nothing to up the excitement of dessert like getting to roast a marshmallow yourself and watch the fallen ones ooze up and burst. Kids freaking love it (hell, I do too). Don’t worry too much about keeping them entertained since the novelty of the tent will go far and you can also ask the kids to help collect firewood, etc. Definitely bring puffy jackets, hats, and gloves for everyone. Also, get your kids their own headlamps (they’ll have a blast messing around with them and it will start getting annoying eventually but hey, it’s just one night).
Anonymous
For one-night trips, we don’t take the big stove and all the cooking equipment. We roast hot dogs over the fire for dinner and make s’mores for dessert. You can get inexpensive toasting forks in the seasonal section at Target. For breakfast, we take a tiny backpacking stove and kettle to make pour-over coffee, and eat yogurt and granola. You could even skip the backpacking stove and just bring bottled cold-brew. We eat off of leftover paper plates and plastic flatware from birthday parties. Super easy and fun, virtually no hassle or cleanup.
Sam
OP here – yes we will have a fire (there’s a fire pit) but we’re not allowed to gather firewood in the park. Please keep the tips coming, I am taking notes!! Good point on the headlamps, I might have skimped on getting them their own, but you are right that they will love messing about with them!
Anon
Depending on where you’re at, bug repellent. This is not a place to go all natural. Get the DEET.
I LOL’d at the suggestion of puffer jackets because the weather here will be 99, sunny and humid all weekend, but where you’re at, if you need them, bring them!
anon
Lots of places will sell firewood at the campsite.
anon
This will be so fun! Your kids will love it! Please report back.
Are you building a fire? If so, I’d buy some metal skewers (the really long ones) and do hot dogs on a stick. The little ones can totally participate. Bring some pre-peeled, pre-cut fruit and there’s your meal. You can do smores for desert. For breakfast, if you have a stove and are willing to do dishes, great, but I personally would keep it simple and just do bagels/muffins and fruit. I like peanut butter on my bagels and that makes them a little more filling. Definitely keep snacks on hand – fruit, goldfish, granola bars, whatever snacks they like.
I wouldn’t worry about keeping them entertained. There will be tons of fun things to explore. Go on short hikes and look at the various leaves, bugs, etc. You could bring a frisbee or a ball or something if you wanted. You could also bring bikes if there’s room in/on your car. I’d also try and keep the bedtime routine fairly similar – brush teeth, read books, etc.
Anonymous
You might want a larger than 4 person tent and get some good sleeping pads! Bring stuff to shower in case your kids get really filthy/disgusting for some reason.
Ms B
We have found “dirt friendly”, i.e. washable, toys to be a must. Faves include frisbees, foam football/baseball, plastic playing cards, and anything by Green Toys. The Kid also enjoys hiking to find things for his “treasure box” (meaning a shoebox that we let him decorate), learning to use a compass, using binoculars to identify wildlife (mostly birds) and splashing through all available dirt and mud (bring boots!). There’s also a fun app that lets you identify the constellations whereever you are.
One other fave for camping is the Coleman Quad lantern, link to follow. This is great because it can light an entire tent or you can peel panels off for walks to the car, bathroom, etc.
Ms B
Lantern link follows. We have had ours two years now and it is going strong. Bring extra batteries, too!
https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Lantern-Special-Bright-Lumens/dp/B001TS71NG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=12FFNDNATK8K3&keywords=coleman+quad+led+lantern&qid=1558725218&s=gateway&sprefix=coleman+quad+%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-3
Anon
Sounds like a fun trip. The kids might have fun just poking around in the dirt and exploring (if they’re anything like my child). Lots of good ideas already. I’ll add to /reiterate:
I second the recommendation for insect repellent with deet.
Snacks – like kind bars, popped popcorn, nuts, tub of cookies from Trader Joe’s, etc are handy to have on hand
Cut fruit – we bring watermelon
Coffee in a can
Canned chili and tortilla chips (and can opener)
Hot dogs
Loaf of bread – to wrap the dogs (plus they’re good for breakfast the next morning).
Peanut butter or Nutella
Sometimes I pack cheese sticks and hard boiled eggs in the cooler
Stuff to make S’mores
Also,
Cell phones make decent flashlights, and set under a water bottle they do an ok job illuminating a small space
Hand sanitizer
You might back a few of those usb power packs.
Benadryl can be handy, if you have a child sensitive to bug bites (wish we had this on our last trip)
And hydrocortisone cream
Have fun and report back!
Anonymous
If it’s not too late in the day — what are people’s personal guidelines re throwing food out of the fridge after a power outage? I know there are official guidelines on this — 4 hours without power and practically everything has to be thrown out per the USDA. Yet I am surrounded by people today who are telling me I am paranoid and need therapy because after a 7 hour outage yesterday, I am ready to throw everything out and go re shop. People are telling me — oh I don’t throw anything away under 12 hours or under 24 hours. So what do you all do?
Anonymous
I keep a fridge thermometer and check the temperature as soon as the power comes back on.
Anon
You’re misstating the USDA guidelines. The USDA says the food is fine if the power has been out on the fridge less than 4 hours. It does *not* say the converse, that is, that you must throw everything out if the power has been out for more than 4 hours. Rather, it says that certain foods should not be kept above 40 degrees F for more than 2 hours. My fridge takes over 12 hours to get above 40 degrees if the door isn’t opened. So no, I would not generally throw everything out after a 7 power outage.
AnonInfinity
Same here. I try not to open the fridge much during a power outage and then check when it comes back on. As long as the food isn’t warmer than it would be when I normally bring it home from the grocery store and leave it in my car while running a few errands, I figure it’s fine.
Anon
What 1:15 Anon said. Additionally, some things can take a bit more temperature abuse than others. During the last few hurricanes, eggs and hard cheese got used over the next few days while the power was out. Same with things like whole fruits/veggies that last longer when refrigerated, but don’t need to be. Once they’re cut, they need to stay cool, but not before. I kept any condiments that were acidic and didn’t have mayo in them. Ketchup, mustard, that sort of thing – all fine.
AnonInfinity
Ohhh, good point! And there are some things that we usually keep in the fridge here that don’t really need to be refrigerated if you’re using it within a few days. Butter comes to mind as an example.
Anon
I think I’m more relaxed about food safety than most (I never get sick though) but I would only toss things like mayo and yogurt that are known for spoiling easily and are meant to be eaten raw. I wouldn’t worry about anything that was going to be cooked (meat, fish and eggs) because I could my food thoroughly and the cooking process should kill any bad bacteria. Butter, nut butter, fruits, veggies, cheeses and bread are generally fine at warmer temperatures and are only stored in the fridge to extend their lifespan, so I wouldn’t worry about any of those. I buy organic, ultrapasteurized milk that is shelf-stable until opened so I would only toss an open container. I recently learned that my friends find it horrifying that I’ll keep leftovers in my fridge for up to a week though, so YMMV!
Anon
I think it’s a myth that mayo spoils easily. I’ve also found that yogurt does pretty well compared to any non-cultured dairy.
Eggs don’t need to be refrigerated; it just extends shelf life.
I would be far more concerned about the meat and fish. It’s often not the bacteria that are going to make you sick; it’s the toxins the bacteria produced when they were alive. Those aren’t going anywhere when you cook it.
Gail the Goldfish
I thought you did need to refrigerate eggs if you’re in the US but not if you’re in Europe? It has to do with how eggs are processed differently.
Anon
That is true, but they can still take a pretty good bit of temperature abuse if they’re not cracked. Also, +1 on butter being fine out. Can’t let the beer get warm, though, so drink up. What? That’s only during hurricane season? My bad!
Anon
Thanks for mentioning this! I just looked this up, and it looked like grocery store eggs in the US have had their protective coating washed off, so you do need to refrigerate them. I’m not still clear whether they’d be okay or not after a few hours, so I would be still tempted to just check if they’re still fresh or not.