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Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.
Short-sleeved sweaters are one of my favorite options for wearing under blazers in the winter. It’s a little extra warmth without getting too sweaty. I love this white and navy polka dot version from Boden. I think it would look great with a bright skirt (green, purple, and yellow are coming to mind) and a navy blazer. This sweater also comes in several other solids and prints — the yellow with a white ribbed neckline is another favorite. Abingdon Knitted Tee
This sweater is $75 and available in sizes XS–XL.
Mango has a similar option that's on sale for $39.99 and goes up to size XXL.
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Sales of note for 10.10.24
- Nordstrom – Extra 25% off clearance (through 10/14); there's a lot from reader favorites like Boss, FARM Rio, Marc Fisher LTD, AGL, and more. Plus: free 2-day shipping, and cardmembers earn 6x points per dollar (3X the points on beauty).
- Ann Taylor – Extra 50% off sale (ends 10/12)
- Banana Republic Factory – Up to 50% off everything plus extra 25% off your $125+ purchase
- Boden – 10% off new styles with code; free shipping over $75
- Eloquii – Extra 50% off a lot of sale items, with code
- J.Crew – 40% off sitewide
- J.Crew Factory – 50% off entire site, plus extra 25% off orders $150+
- Lo & Sons – Fall Sale, up to 35% off
- M.M.LaFleur – Save 25% sitewide
- Neiman Marcus – Sale on sale, up to 85% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 50% off 2+ markdowns
- Target – Circle week, deals on 1000s of items
- White House Black Market – Buy one, get one – 50% off full price styles
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
- What boots do you expect to wear this fall and winter?
- What beauty treatments do you do on a regular basis to look polished?
- Can I skip the annual family event my workplace holds, even if I'm a manager?
- What small steps can I take today to get myself a little more “together” and not feel so frazzled all of the time?
- The oldest daughter is America's social safety net — change my mind…
- What have you lost your taste for as you've aged?
- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
Lasers!
Hi all! Lasers…the ones you use on your face, such as Clear and Brilliant or Laser Genesis. Does anyone do this on a regular basis? What were you treating, if anything specifically? What were the results? Any preference for one over the other? Thanks!
anon
I did an IPL for my dark spots and it worked so so well. I don’t have anything to compare.
BeenThatGuy
I did the same and was very happy with the results.
anon
Yes, I wasted tons of money over the years on serums, etc., and the IPL worked a million times better, so it was worth every penny.
Housecounsel
IPL worked on a curling iron burn scar, but didn’t do anything for sun damage or melasma. Retin-A and vitamin C serum and lots of sunscreen seem to be making a difference but I am very interested in lasers.
anne-on
Yup, did lasers for melasma (I think IPL? May have been fraxel?) it took about 3-4 sessions and worked brilliantly.
Anonymous
I get YAG laser directly on sun spots on my hands and check. They turn crusty and fall off in a week. I do it routinely every fall. IPL is over a larger area. That didn’t work well for me and I kept going back. YAG is pinpoint precision just on the spots and works once.
Anonymous
I’ve done 3 or 4…maybe 5 (I’ve lost count) Clear and Brilliant treatments and would recommend it. I was not treating anything in particular, just overall anti-aging. I would recommend doing a package and getting a few treatments a few weeks a part, the results really compound. There is virtually no downtime and I received several unsolicited compliments on my skin in the weeks/months afterward. You didn’t ask but I would also highly recommend microneedling to literally anyone and everyone.
Anon Probate Atty
For what purpose do you recommend microneedling? Just aging skin in general? I don’ t have scarring or melasma, but at age 44, I do have some fine lines that I’d like to be rid of. Just don’t want the fake look of botox.
Housecounsel
I had a terrible result with microneedling. I broke out in hives and needed oral and topical steroids. All treatments have risks, of course. Just be careful and go to a dermatologist’s office and not a spa like I did.
Anon
I’ve seen so many good results from IPL and lament not being able to use it on some persistent scarring that I have. I have yet to see a good alternative to IPL for dark skin, any inventors want to invent that? There are lasers for hair removal on dark skin, but not IPL
MagicUnicorn
J Crew Going Out blazer newbie questions:
Are the sleeves supposed to be bracelet length? And are the pockets real or fake? They seem to be sewn shut more securely than most and I don’t want to tear the seam out only to find there is no pocket.
anne-on
Pockets are fake, and the sleeves are indeed bracelet length (so unfortunately, it doesn’t work well if you wear a lot of long-sleeved blouses unless they have cuffs you want to show off I guess?).
anne-on
Oops, pockets are real, I just kept them sewn shut!
ElisaR
i just checked mine as i keep it on my chair…. pockets appear to be fake but i guess i just never opened them!
Anonymous
My pockets are real, but mine are a year plus old. Has that changed? It’s still described as having pockets.
Anonymous
Sleeves are bracelet length and pockets are real.
Gail the Goldfish
I thought the sleeves were supposed to be full length and they were just short on me, so I bought it in a tall, which worked fine. But maybe they really are intended to be bracelet length. Regular size was too long to look deliberately bracelet length but too short to look long, in my opinion.
MagicUnicorn
That’s what it feels like, but maybe it’s like the first time I wore ankle pants and the look will grow on me. I did open the pockets and they are real. Thanks everyone!
ValkyrieLawyer
I bought two Going Out blazers in mid-2019, one in a regular size for bracelet-length sleeves and one in a tall size for full-length sleeves. And the pockets are definitely real, though they are quite decisively sewn shut. (I discovered this fact because the stitches unraveled on the pockets through regular use!)
Anon
Random question for this Thursday morning. Part of my 2020 resolutions is to budget better, so I’m looking at my spending habits. What are some things that you just know a brand name is better than the alternative, and you are willing to pay that premium?
Anonymous
I don’t get this question. It’s not like there’s one ‘brand name’ option and one alternative. Like rain boots – I like Hunters because they fit my foot well so I’m willing to pay more. If I was outside less in the garden, I’d probably just get a Target pair. But for other people, Hunter is the ‘alternative’ and a Burberry rainboot is the ‘brand name. Or for dry pasta – I like Barilla and will buy it regardless of if the store brand is on sale (reminds me of being on vacay in Italy), but other people might not want to pay twice as much for Barilla and yet other people might never consider Barilla and only buy fresh pasta.
Pay more for the stuff that really affects your quality of life. Or buy the more expensive alternative sometimes but not every time.
Anonanonanon
Ritz Crackers. Paper Towels. Toilet Paper. Ziplock bags. Kleenex. Laundry Detergent.
And yes. I’ve been in a tight enough spot to have to make those decisions when I was younger, so I don’t want to minimize the struggle if that’s where you are, but there are so many steps to take in budgeting before spending time and energy on experimenting with store brand products. The savings aren’t THAT significant unless you’re in a really really tough place.
Anon
This. I feel the question is misguided given OPs goals unless you’re at either spending extreme – literally counting cents or if your previous habits has you buying exclusively from Barneys or Bloomingdale’s and you’re looking for justification to shop elsewhere.
Anonymous
Yeah, this looks a lot like my name brand list. The trick is to watch the sales, maybe add a coupon, and pay attention to the unit price. Or a cost per wear if it is for clothing.
Angela
This is exactly what I was going to say — budget cuts are best done by focusing on the “big rocks” — cutting off cable TV = 100 instances of buying generic tissues instead of Kleenex every month. Same for cancelling that rarely-used gym membership, not buying that new shirt, etc.
780
I agree that the big costs are important, but I’ve also significantly cut my grocery bill by buying store brands and shopping at Aldi. Each individual item may not save a lot but in the aggregate it makes a difference, and isn’t a crazy thing to do if you are looking to save money.
Anonymous
Re Aldi, there are a couple in my city, but not near me. I go to the Harris Teeter that is closest and typically buy a bag or two at a time. I usually cook pasta + some sort of sauce or roast a chicken (or bone-in-breasts, which are much faster). Is Aldi likely to be much cheaper for things this basic? Cheaper for meat?
I think that for some stores, there is a type of shopper who saves $ there (like Costco didn’t work for me b/c I never need a dozen limes and you couldn’t buy just one lime, but for staples like TP, I could bulk buy (but I can also bulk buy without a huge drive out to Costco by going to my neighborhood Target and using the Target card)). It might not be rock-bottom pricing, but I think it is close. Costco is great for parties though — their frozen appetizers and cakes are great, so if you entertain a lot, it is great even if you are in a household of 1.
780
I’m a vegetarian, so I can’t speak to Aldi’s meat prices. But it is not a bulk store like Costco, most everything is in the same sizes that you would find at a big name grocery store. With regards to other items, their eggs, milk, and bread are less than half the price of other stores in my area. Cheese is a lot cheaper too, even less than the sales prices at other stores. The produce tends to be a very good price, but they don’t have everything in stock all the time.
780
Oh, and their frozen vegetables are a great price too. A steamer bag at Aldi is $1, when I can’t seem to find it on sale for less than $3 at my local big name grocery store.
Anon
+100 or finding a cheaper place to live/cheaper car. I’m always puzzled by budgeting tips aimed at things like grocery bills. Groceries generally account for a low percentage of people’s budgets plus to realize savings you have to be diligent about it very regularly. You can easily blow 2 months of savings from couponing in one grocery trip. Much easier to focus on the big ticket or recurring/auto payment items. You think about it once and then it’s done.
Vicky Austin
Groceries are easily the most malleable category in the budget though. The ability to compromise or coupon is there with groceries in a way it very much isn’t with rent, car, etc. You’re absolutely right about the level of mental effort required to consistently save on your groceries, but if you’re short on money and long on time and spoons to do it, it does pay off.
Anon
That’s true, provided that you’re not already living in a cheaper place with a cheaper car. Groceries shouldn’t be the first budget category everyone looks at, but it’s still a pretty flexible category and worth looking into if you do want to save some money.
Anon
Step 1 is to lower your fixed-payment overhead: rent, loans, auto loans, cable, etc.
Step 2 is to reduce your other expenditures (gym membership, groceries, etc.)
My husband and I live in a slightly smaller place than we would like, but the next size up would cost an extra $500 a month. At that point, we’re not really very concerned about things like an extra $10 a week at Trader Joe’s from random snack purchases.
Anonymous
I know it is because I have 3 kids and a husband, but my monthly grocery bill is a significant expense. It is more than my transportation costs and about equal to my student loan payment. It is one area, that because it is not a fixed expense, I can try and control. I definitely see this on months where I really plan well and try to keep it lower, vs when I just go to the store and buy whatever I feel like buying (which is honestly most of the time. I have a list and a general idea of what I need but don’t think carefully over every purchase. And if the kids are with me I let them add too many things haha.)
Anon
Basically Tide, Hellman’s Mayo, and Tampax.
I switched to Aldi for the majority of my grocery shopping and it’s so fast and easy to get through (4 aisles! No need to compare because they only have 1 of each type of thing!), and so cheap. I adore it.
Gail the Goldfish
Mayo is also one of mine, except I’m firmly in the Duke’s camp instead of Hellman’s. Paper towels (Bounty) and Kleenex. And weirdly, string cheese. Kroger’s store brand was fine, but all the Krogers in our area closed and the Publix brand is just… not good.
Gail the Goldfish
Oh yea, and Diet Dr. Pepper. DH always bought Dr. Topper when we were broke and in college and just no.
Anon
It depends on the store brand. In my cost cutting efforts post big-law, when I started having significantly more time and less money, I started shopping at Aldi and I primarily buy their store brands. There are a few items when I only buy the name brand, like soda and a few cereals and crackers and pet food. Otherwise, I don’t notice a difference between Aldi brand and the name brand. However, I do notice a difference between grocery store A and the name brand in some other items and grocery store B and the name brand in other items.
Honestly, just try the store brand and see what you think. Everyone will have different preferences.
Anonymous
True on sodas: Diet Pepsi ride or die.
But I will compare prices (e.g., some sales make the brand pasta or sauce cheaper than the store brand) on most staples and I will bulk buy when there is a good sale (10 cans of Del Monte green beans for $10; those are really good canned green beans) on most other items.
Anonymous
A lot of store brands are made by the “name” brands – milk and ice cream specifically come to mind. You can by whatever-whatever dairy, but Food Lion brand was made in the exact same plant that same day. (Obviously, different if you’re going for true organic or the nationally known brands like Horizon.)
Anonymous
Paper towels, olive oil, honey (Trader Joe’s or local farmers market), Advil, and tea.
AnonInfinity
Advil? What is the difference between name-brand Advil and the generic alternatives? Medications are the #1 spot that I’ve read you can save a ton by getting generic/store brand.
I do agree with the other stuff on your list!
Anon from 9:08
It’s definitely a me thing – generic ibuprofen pills just don’t seem to work as effectively as Advil for pain relief (had two crowns replaced yesterday and took generic ibuprofen during the day that didn’t really seem to do much…)
AnonInfinity
Ahhh, got it! All of these reasons make sense! I’ve never had any problems with generics, so that’s always been one area I go for (unlike generic toilet paper… eep!)
NOLA
I don’t know about Advil, but I have read that name brand Aleve is actually better than the generic. I have no idea why that is.
Is it Friday yet?
Anecdotally, I think brand name Aleve is more effective. I think it’s that even with the same active ingredients, coatings and additives can make a difference in how it’s delivered and metabolized – much like how some prescription medicines (e.g. birth control) the generic seems to work differently.
NOLA
Yes, that’s what I had heard as well. I take so much of it for my knees and hips that I buy the brand name even thought it’s more expensive.
Anon
Advil and Aleve are different drugs, and Ibuprofen is less strong than Naproxen,
anon
Not Anonymous @ 9:08, but I have a hard time swallowing pills and like the coating on name-brand Advil. I’ve gagged on lots of generic, powdery Advil tablets. Agree that once I get it down, the medication works the same. And I don’t have the same problem with generic Zyrtec, Aleve, or Tylenol. I do have the same problem with pretty much every prescription medication, generic or name-brand, and I take gummy vitamins.
Anonymous
What type of product are you asking about …makeup brands? clothing? cars? food? electronics? wine? . . . this is a really complicated question if we don’t know your context. It also depends on whether you’ve been used to buying clothes at high-end stores and are now wondering if it’s OK to buy your sweaters at Loft — which is a high-end store to someone who is used to shopping the clearance rack at Target or Walmart.
Example: I buy Apple products because they just work for me. But they’re darned expensive, so I buy used, past-year versions. Works for me.
Anonymous
My BCP, even though my insurance doesn’t cover it. So tired of getting switched among various generics that are “the same” but have vastly different side effects.
Anonanonanon
FWIW I experience significant savings by shopping at Trader Joe’s. Also, cut out cereal, snack food, soda. Healthier AND those things cost a lot of money!
Anon
Me, too. My husband and I spend about $85 a week at Trader Joe’s, supplemented with some purchases from Kroger. The quality is really good and the prices are very reasonable.
anon
I’m always puzzled by how people save money at TJ’s. I feel like TJ’s drains my wallet, $2.99 at a time. (Still shop there, but it’s a once-a-month thing.)
emeralds
For me, that would be all the fun cute stuff. I’ll do a stock up trip every once in a while to get easy stuff to keep in the freezer for the (rare) days I don’t cook, but if I make a list that is mostly staples (produce / milk / unprocessed proteins / pasta / etc.) it’s cheap.
anon
It must vary a lot because I find that my local big grocery store usually has better prices for basic staple items.
Anon
yeah TJ’s prices for basics are not good compared to my “normal” grocery store (Kroger). Also their produce is horrible.
BabyAssociate
Me too. To me Trader Joe’s is mostly snacks and prepared foods, I don’t do actual grocery shopping there.
Anon
Our usual Trader Joe’s shop:
Ciabatta bread
Organic spinach
Apples
Pears
Bananas
Peppers
Tomatoes
Green beans
Baby carrots
Fresh soup
Milk
Cage-free eggs
Icelandic yogurt in individual cups, Greek yogurt in the big container
OJ
Cheese (much cheaper than the grocery store)
Pasta sauce, pasta
Masala simmer sauce
Canned chickpeas, beans, etc.
Trail mix or nuts
Steak tips (might be slightly more expensive than the grocery store)
Cold brew coffee or coffee grounds
Chips, salsa
Shashuska starter
Breakfast item (cinnamon rolls, breads, etc.)
Frozen lunches
…and then we get treats like Joe-Joe’s, lava cakes, hot cocoa, etc., but even those compare favourably to the grocery store.
Anonymous
My list of things that are cheaper and/or better quality at TJ’s than at the grocery store includes:
Cheese
Nuts
Dried fruit
Chips, pretzels, and other snack foods
Ice cream (not sure if it’s cheaper, but it’s way better)
Giant tubs of plain Greek yogurt
Ricotta cheese (see ice cream above)
Organic stick butter
Frozen vegetables and fruits
Frozen fish
Pellegrino and seltzer
Pizza dough
Some, but not all, bread products and tortillas
Frozen entrees and appetizers
Honey, organic agave, organic sugar
Olive oil and other cooking oils
Certain condiments
Greeting cards
Shredded coconut for baking
A few items of organic produce
anon
I find that produce from my Trader Joe’s only lasts a couple of days, so it doesn’t work for my weekly shopping. But I go once or twice a month and stock up on frozen food and snacks, plus buy a few other shelf items on my list. The frozen food alone saves me a ton of money on lunches and takeout. It’s also great for items like maple syrup, honey, and nuts, especially if you don’t want to buy those items in bulk.
Saguaro
Relating to food shopping, when I was earning much less and had to watch every penny, I would always try the store brand first and see if I liked it, and if not, then I would stick with the name brand. And if I then used a brand name, I would try to have a coupon or catch a sale. The resulted in about 98% of my purchases being store brand, and therefore saving quite a bit on my grocery bills.
Anonymous
When I was that poor I was also mostly vegetarian just to save $. Even cheese is expensive.
I got horrid baked tortilla chips (store brand) that wouldn’t hold salt and were like cardboard. They were awful but I couldn’t get another bag until I had finished that one. Store-brand salsa helped (I’d get Pace picante if I was feeling spendy and then-boyfriend got me queso one weekend and it felt like OMG he DOES love me).
ElisaR
queso = true love
Anon
Isn’t it just wasting money if you’re spending your precious dollars on something that you find “awful?”
FFS
No, she was finishing up the bag she already bought before she could buy the good kind again. Otherwise not only are you buying the more expensive item, but you wasted the money buying the store brand in the first place.
Ribena
Meat or dairy substitutes- I’ll quite often buy the name brand, either because I know it to be better (Oatly) or because I know I like it and I don’t know about the store brand (vegan cheese quality is highly variable). That said, I will also go to specific supermarkets to buy *their* own brand of something.
Housecounsel
Charmin and Bounty big rolls so I have to change them less. Wine. Tampax. Pirate’s Booty – the Trader Joe’s version is not good. Secret Clinical. Ben and Jerry’s. Most grocery items from TJ’s are cheaper and very good. My Instant Pot is turning out to be a money saver because I am making big batches of grains and dried beans etc. and using these for lunches instead of eating out.
Housecounsel
P.S. I use the Target app and get a lot of coupons on name brands this way.
LawyrChk
Running/workout shoes. Heinz Ketchup. Razors. Deodorant. Most other stuff we buy whatever on sale or the generic.
CountC
I am a huge buyer of generic brand products, but I always stick with brand name for Raisin Bran and ketchup (Heinz).
Anon
Coke, Bandaids, Heinz.
Anonymous
Tampons (LOLA), facial tissue (Puffs plus lotion until i die), detergent (tide pods), cream cheese (philly only), Sports Bras (I cannot find another that I like as much unfortunately – Juno bra girl here), Running shoes, razors (Schick quattro), cat food, underwear.
I have been where you are. A few tips: download the ibotta app. They do “cash back” when you purchase certain brand and generic items at grocery stores, target, etc. I get the Sunday paper and go through the coupons for those items that I use a lot. And the Target circle offers are great as well. Often you can “stack” a circle offer, a coupon, and an ibotta in one purchase.
One other note: For non-perishable goods, I go to BJs. I know some people on here are Costco loyalists but hear me out. For those non-perishables, you can stack coupons. Example: Say you want to buy a three pack of the olay body wash you adore. You have, somehow, multiple manufacturer coupons for $1 off one bottle (maybe they had a coupon in each of the last 2 papers). And BJs has their own coupon for $2.50 off the pack. You can use one manufacturer’s coupon for each bottle AND the BJs coupon. Costco does not allow this nor do they accept manufacturer’s coupons last I heard. This can save you significantly.
Price-value curve
The bigger question that helped us save a ton of money was “how much do I value this thing”? This was a big deal when we used to go out for dinner to mid-range chain restaurants and we were always disappointed. We live in HCOL, so even a dinner at Chili’s is $40… which is not worth it. We realized we should spend according to what we were actually buying. If we’re just too lazy to cook, we do something fast and cheap, like Chipotle. If we want to have a date night, we go to a nice place and spend significantly more. By cutting out the mid-range $30-$60 dinners for “convenience” or boredom, we saved a ton of money on our monthly food bill AND improved our experience.
For practical weekly grocery spending, buy in bulk when there’s a sale. Meat in our city usually ranges from $3-$5/lb., so if I see it on sale for half price, I buy as much as I can fit in the freezer. We’re not picky eaters, so if that means I buy 40 lbs. of chicken or ground turkey because it’s on sale, so be it.
For clothes, I have a pretty strict rule that I won’t pay to get something tailored (I realize this isn’t feasible for everyone and I don’t work in an industry that requires business formal, so my daily dress code is much easier to accommodate). I’m a size and shape where that’s limiting enough to keep me from buying a ton of things and then paying extra for tailoring, but not such an outlier that it means I can’t find anything. I think I’ve had maybe 2 things hemmed and 4 things taken in at the waist in the last decade, otherwise, if it doesn’t fit well enough off the rack, I just don’t buy it. There have been a few items that I’ve tried on and felt like I love it… if I hem it, take it in at the waist, get the shoulders brought up, etc. etc. No, that means I don’t love it, because I can’t wear it without a lot of additional time and money! Factor that into the cost, not just the actual tailoring dollars, but the time and headache to go get that work done (since I don’t tailor items, I don’t have a go-to, so I’d also have to find someone).
Anon
+1
Vicky Austin
Your point about Chili’s is spot-on.
Anonanonanon
Yes. When I adopted an attitude of thinking of all the other things I could spend that mid-range restaurant money on I realized it wasn’t worth it. Also, I decided if I was actually hungry I would make food. It’s not like I was going to be literally too week from hunger to cook. If I was just bored and wanted to eat but didn’t have the motivation to cook, then clearly I wasn’t that hungry. Saved money AND pounds.
Anonymous
I agree that mid-range restaurants aren’t worth the $$$, but I totally disagree about hunger and the motivation to cook. I have no problem cooking if I’m not that hungry yet. When I am actually hungry, I barely have the energy to order a pizza or go to the fridge and get myself a snack. Cooking in that state is impossible. When I lived alone, I used to skip meals all the time because I was literally too hungry to cook.
Anon
We cut out the mid range restaurant too, after a dinner for me and husband in Olive Garden was $60 including tips. I couldn’t justify paying that money for a chain restaurant. We never go to fast food restaurant (I am from a different country and there was no fast food growing up, so never felt like going when I moved here). We have narrowed down to a couple of recipes which can be done with very little effort if we are short on time or lazy to cook. We also have four frozen pizzas (of different kinds) in the freezer. So if we really cannot cook, I just bake the frozen pizza and be done with it.
Other thing we did was cut down produce waste. I make sure everything I buy gets cooked and eaten. This really has made an impact on the grocery bills as well as the guilt of throwing away food.
Walnut
Cosign literally every word of this.
Anonymous
I buy a LOT of store brand stuff. Tissues, dishwasher soap, ritz and graham crackers, Coke Zero, bar soap and laundry detergent are the only things I always buy brand name.
CostAccountant
Toilet paper
Anon
Q TIPS
Brand only.
If I felt like putting an unpadded stick in my ear, I’d just get one from the garden.
Diana Barry
Update on yesterday: Bl00mies would not honor the 15% coupon so I had to reorder the dress I am keeping. Sigh. When I get it I’ll bring all of the first order back to the store (so the dresses will go back into stock).
Anon
I hate when stores have the policy. I get their though that most people won’t take the time to bother re-ordering. But if you have make the effort to contact customer service, you are probably the person who is going to re-order to get the discount.
Cat Mom
In this case, it seems like the 15% off coupon was a “reward” for buying the dress and they wanted it used on a future purchase. Make sure to read the fine print to make sure there is no repercussion for returning the first dress, like being refunded 15% less on the first dress because you used the coupon. This happens if you do buy one get one 50% off and then return the first item. You don’t get the whole amount back because you then should have paid full price for the second item.
Different story if you got the coupon out of the blue instead of with this purchase.
Anon
+1 – normally this practice of not honoring coupons that appear right after purchase annoys me. But because you got the coupon specifically because of this recent purchase, the analysis is a bit different. I think the store would be within their rights to dock your refund.
Cat
Unlikely in this case. DB will, per the terms of the offer, apply the 15% off to a future purchase. It’s not like a “gift with purchase” that must be returned if you don’t keep the items.
Anon
Yeah, I’m not really surprised about this at all. This all seems like so much tangible and mental work to get 15% off, I have to admit I’m rolling my eyes a little bit.
Anon
My team is beginning to incorporate gender-based analysis into our evaluation of projects, programs, and policies. Basically, it’s a framework for assessing how my team’s work may impact women, men, non-binary people differently with the goal of ensuring best services for all. At a meeting about this, one of my colleagues (mid-thirties, same organizational level as me) introduced her opinion that “at this point, it’s white straight men who are being discriminated against.” I was surprised to hear she held this opinion, and expressed it in a meeting with our boss and director. If you were me, would you kindly try to educate this person? How do you respond when someone says something like this? If it matters, I am a gay woman of colour and do not agree with her perspective, which I don’t think is supported by objective evidence nor our organization’s management.
Anon
Tbh, the notion that other people are ignorant buffoons to be “educated” is one of the bigger problems with modern progressivism. Your colleague is obviously wrong and probably not very smart, but this should be handled differently IMO. Lead by example and with the evidence you’ll be gathering through this work, not with an off-putting mission to “educate” that won’t help and may hurt.
anon
It’s also off-putting to assume that someone is not very smart. Being wrong about one thing is not evidence of idiocy.
Anon
Meh, you can’t be that intelligent if the best you can do is regurgitate a Fox News line about white men being the most oppressed. That’s very different from having a nuanced discussion about the struggles of low-income rural white men.
Anon
Okay, I’m not going to weigh in on OP’s particular situation, but NO, wanting to educate somebody doesn’t mean you think they aren’t smart. It just means you think they have a gap in their knowledge. It’s an incredibly defensive response to equate a gap in knowledge with somebody thinking you’re dumb.
Anonymous
I think the education will come as she sees the analysis on each issue.
FWIW, I’ve found GBA to be a very helpful policy tool. I work in a Cdn province that’s been incorporating this for the last 5 years and I’ve learned a lot about how women and minority groups are impacted by different issues. E.g. how women are disproportionately impacted by climate change.
Anon
I’ve never heard that before, about women being disproportionately impacted by climate change. Do you know why that is? Or any good sources I should look at for research? Thanks
Anonymous
In developing countries women are disproprionately responsible for feeding their families and for gathering water. Both become more difficult as a result of climate change. 70% of the world’s poor are women. In developed countries, women are more likely than men to live in poverty, particularly single moms, and are/will be disproportionately affected by rising food costs as a result. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), UN, WHO, IUCN etc all have good articles on it. This is only a couple examples: https://www.who.int/globalchange/GenderClimateChangeHealthfinal.pdf
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2017/9/experts-take-dilruba-haider
https://www.yaleclimateconnections.org/2019/03/a-reading-list-on-women-and-climate-change/
Anon
I’ve never heard that before, about women being disproportionately impacted by climate change. Do you know why that is? Or any good sources to learn about this? Thanks
Anonymouse
IMO, i dont think lack of education is necessarily the issue – i think its just plain ignorance and prejudice a lot of the time. If this was a friend or close acquaintance i would flat talk to them about why this is flat out wrong, hope to open their mind – but since this is the workplace, id let it go. I also agree with Anon @ 9:48am that people dont respond well to educating.
Anonymous
Just curious — what do you do? I can see where it would matter a lot (e.g., clinical research).
For what I do, we try to make sure that older, disabled (often due to age, prior stokes, t2 diabetes complications, or cognitive decline), non-driving, or physically large people are accounted for (e.g., wheelchair size).
OP
I work for a municipal government managing a portfolio of major public infrastructure in a very large city. Choices we make such as – how much of our snow clearing budget is allocated to roads versus sidewalks? which commuter arterial roads are we going to pay to rehabilitate first? are we going to light a park at night or not? are we going to provide washrooms in all our transit stations or only some, and if so which ones? where will the new central library be located? – may have major implications to one gender or to non-binary people, which aren’t immediately obvious in the absence of proper analysis. If our choices result in projects, programs, and policies that make it harder for certain people to use our services, that is unacceptable, especially since everyone’s taxes fund our work. I’m an engineer, so is my colleague. It was incredibly disheartening to hear another woman in a male-dominated profession express the opinion she did. When I say “educate” I almost mean warn her how tone deaf she sounds in front of management when she expresses opinions like that.
Anonymous
I replied above but if you’re an engineer, I’d like the data on the particular issue do the talking. Like women are 45% more likely to use bike trails over bike lanes because they are perceived to be safer. Or policies that benefit pedestrians provide more benefit to women (who are more likely to be poor) and men who are poor whereas policies that privilege drivers are more likely to benefit wealthier men.
Anon
When you’re talking about this, I wonder how it impacts the elderly, the poor, the disabled, parents to small children, etc. For example, a person of limited mobility who does not drive has more need of a shoveled sidewalk than does an able-bodied person with a car, who can navigate a slippery sidewalk or drive to wherever she wants to be. Parents who get stuck in traffic have trouble balancing work and family: the length of a commute requires them to leave work earlier for daycare. (There was an article in boston dot com about this recently.)
Anonymous
Interesting. How do you know about the non-binary people? I ask b/c in my conservative field, I doubt that people self-identify. And no one in HR wants to be the one who assumes that Sally is a man.
FWIW in my city, greenways are becoming rapist magnets. I would not go on one alone but would in a group or if I had a large dog. On nice weekend days, you get more foot traffic, but a random Wednesday afternoon, they can be deserted at the wrong time.
Anon
I don’t think that going in deciding to “educate” someone is a helpful approach. First step is to figure out exactly what she means by this.
There are a lot of white men who don’t have easy lives, or don’t come from a lot. I live near Appalachia, and white men from this area have a lot fewer connections and resources than people from other areas. You wouldn’t look at someone who is the first in his family to go to college or graduate school, whose parents don’t own a working car and whose sister died of a drug overdose, and think, “Yeah, that dude is just swimming in privilege.” (Or if you do, you’re the one who needs to be educated.)
There are circumstances in which people win reverse discrimination lawsuits, but they are rare. (I know of one, and that was because the hiring manager was literally overheard saying that she would not hire a white man.) The perception, accurate or not, is that white men don’t have legal recourse if they are discriminated against.
If you feel the need to “educate” this person, you can figure out how your company does at hiring, retaining, and promoting women and minorities, and then present that evidence to the person. A very non-confrontational “Whatever may be happening in other companies, Acme’s statistics show that we are doing a poor job at hiring and promoting women, minorities, and LGBT. It’s important to us to use everyone’s talents, and that isn’t happening here.”
Anonny
In your example, that is being discriminated because they are poor – not because of their race. Privilege is a suuuper complicated subject. I have privilege because both my parents are well educated and I grew up upper middle class. But Im also a black woman who has dealt with BOTH sexism and racism in everyday life. I also am privileged because i have degrees from great universities. But I also have family that came to this country to flee civil war in West Africa and have experienced trauma as the result of that. I think understanding how multifaceted privilege is is important but when it comes to being White – that comes with many many more advantages in this country. However, a poor white man is going to have a different experience than an upper middle class white man. But both of those have to do with economics – not necessarily race.
Anon09er
So… the white guy who is the first in his family to go to college… How does his trajectory compare to his sister’s or his female neighbor’s? The point of male privilege is that he’s going to have an easier time overall than the woman or minority coming from similar circumstances. Moreover, individuals aren’t statistics. You can always find an example of a cis white male who is not as privileged as some other example of a woman or minority.
Anon
Oh good grief. If you are seriously thinking about the privilege of people who are born into abject poverty, just stop talking.
Anon
Yikes! You can still have white privilege if you’re in poverty. If you don’t see that you need to stop talking.
Anonnn
White privilege means not being discriminated against when it comes to race. That has nothing to do with being poor. For example, Oprah is a billionaire but still receives racist hate mail and death threats from randos – however, she will never have to worry about not being able to get a job because she cant afford bus fare to the interview. Privilege is layered and complex.
Anonymous
She has also been followed or denied service in expensive stores who think she can’t afford to shop there, simply because of her race.
Anon
I don’t think that was a good point to bring up at work because 1) it’s statitistically not true so she looks foolish and 2) the overall focus should be “greater inclusivity for all potential clients” not “X burden is greater than Y burden”, as the latter is not productive.
Professionally, I’d just internally roll my eyes and move on. Personally, I internally brand her as an alt-right sympathizer and proceed with caution on all her contributions.
Anonymous
Just let her make herself look foolish, unless she is obstructing your efforts to get the job done the way it’s supposed to be done.
rosie
I agree with this, since it sounds like the work you’re undertaking will show that she’s wrong and set up a framework to generally do good work on inclusivity. In the moment, I feel like a comment like “well, that’s … a perspective” would be sufficient.
AT Suits
Does Ann Taylor suiting ever go on sale? The current sale doesn’t cover it, nor does the code for signing up for email – debating whether to wait to buy or just buy full price.
Relatedly, how is the quality of their suits? I’m an hourglass and like their curvy pants, but want to get a jacket to match.
Anon2
The suiting does go on sale from time to time.
Anon
Yes, fairly often. Just look for a sale that says “no exclusions.” I am decently happy with the quality and like the seasonless stretch for warmer climates. Unfortunately most of their pants are unlined which I find a frustrating decrease in quality.
ElisaR
yes it goes on sale. i would say pretty substantially. do not pay full price.
Anon
I got two sets on sale during the christmas-new year stretch. They were doing 50 to 70% off alread-on-sale items. They’re polyester, but are lined. Good enough in my business casual engineering industry, but probably not for law and fiance.
anon
Ann Taylor is definitely good enough for law. Big Law is a small portion of the profession of law, and I assume most Big Law mid-level and senior associates are not wearing Ann Taylor. But plenty of lawyers make under $100K, and some under $60K, per year and still need to regularly wear suits. Ann Taylor works for that type of practice.
Anon
I wore tons of Ann Taylor as a Big Law mid-level and senior associate! I think that and Banana Republic were the go-to brands for female non-partners in my office. I also wore LOFT, The Limited (RIP) and even some Old Navy but that was probably stretching it a bit more than most.
Anon
You’d be surprised. Granted I’m in the South where clothing brands and how expensive your clothes and bag are matter a lot less, but in my big law years, the female partners and senior associates were mostly wearing mid range brand. There were maybe two that were in St. Johns and the equivalent but most were in J. Crew, WHBM, and the like. Honestly you would be judged as frivolous for wearing conspicuously expensive brands. There was definitely a “drive a mid level mercedes and wear mid range brands” kind of culture even at the more prestigious firms (and I’m talking our city’s branch of the NY based AmLaw 100 firms).
You would definitely be judged for looking frumpy, but also for looking frivolous with your spend on unimportant things like clothes, bags, and cars. This went for the men as well. I distinctly remember a kid who, tbf, came from money, was ridiculed privately (i.e. amongst everyone but him) for driving the same car as the managing partner.
Lily
Wait, I’m a Big Law senior associate and I wear Ann Taylor, BR, J Crew suits. Am I doing it wrong?
Anonymous
IDK, but I’m an equity partner and I shop where you shop. And I drive a 9 YO Honda (TBH, if you are a committed minivan driver, you can drive something spendy but it will never be flashy). We had riots a couple of years back and I had to work late and was never so grateful to have a basic vehicle.
Anon
You mean you’re not wearing bespoke suits every day? ;)
anon@12:00
Sorry! I’ve only been in mid-law and small law. Good to hear Ann Taylor is a go-to in Big Law too!
Anon
I stand corrected, then. Good to know my Ann Taylor suits are spiffy enough for lawyers.
Midway
I almost bought a couple of sets when they were 60-70% off during the holidays, but I was concerned about quality so I didn’t pull the trigger.
Anon
Thought I would pass along this article that I enjoyed in the Atlantic. Food for thought.
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2020/01/negativity-can-ruin-relationships/604597/
Anon
+1 Interesting and we had a dinner table conversation about this with my DH and 16 y o.
Senior Attorney
Here’s the last line of the article: “Being able to hold your tongue rather than say something nasty or spiteful will do much more for your relationship than a good word or deed.”
It reminded me of a conversation I had with my husband way back when he was my Gentleman Friend:
Me: If I ever do something that bugs you, will you promise to tell me?
Him: Nope. If it only bugs me a little there’s no reason to make a big deal out of it.
Turns out he’s pretty smart.
NOLA
So true! My new gentleman friend is far messier than I am and I tease him about eating in bed and he jokes that I will ban him (I won’t) but I’m not going to make a big deal about it, other than to have a laugh. We also have a running “thermo-spat” about the temperature – he believes in 76 degrees in winter or summer. I sleep cooler and my house doesn’t have central heat. When he’s in the hotel, I go behind his back and lower the temp but then he discovers it and cracks up. Who knows when he moves into his new apartment. So far, it’s just little stuff that we can laugh about, so no need to make it a big confrontation.
Anon
As someone who has spent the last two years in therapy working on being able to talk about my feelings with a romantic partner, I am now struggling to know where the middle ground between “say what you feel” and “this is a minor inconvenience that I don’t need to bring up” is. I obviously don’t want to nag about every little thing but I also don’t want to keep my mouth shut on something that will eventually lead to resentment, because resentment is definitely a relationship killer. How do you decide when something is worth bringing up?
Anonymous
You’re an “under talker,” apparently. So for now, you learn HOW to talk about all this and get over the pain of doing so. You also work on being kind and thoughtful while you talk. Then down the road you again address the distinction about what to bring up / not bring up. If you try to do that now, you’ll paralyze yourself with second-guessing.
Vicky Austin
I’m not the anon you’re responding to but thanks for your insight on this question, it plagues me too.
Senior Attorney
The thought experiment I always do is “would I want my partner correcting/nagging/lecturing/pointing out this thing to me?” And most of the time the answer is “of course I wouldn’t.”
E.g. DH honest and truly does. not. see. the crumbs on the kitchen counter. (It’s a fairly hectically patterned stone and I always say the best thing about it is that it doesn’t show the dirt. And the worst thing about our kitchen counter is that it doesn’t show the dirt.) I could nag him or it could be my job to clean them off. The second choice is much nicer for everybody. Just like it’s his job to collect my forgotten coffee cups from all over the house instead of giving me a hard time about them.
Also, when he does bring something up, he has the best way of doing it. Instead of saying “here, let me show you the right way to do this!” he says “May I show you something?” And only after I say yes does he show me the way that’s much better and easier than what I’m doing. A tiny thing but so nice.
Anon
A question from the thread yesterday about whether you would tell your partner you were getting botox/filler (especially if they disapproved):
Does your SO, in a general sense, typically know where you are and what your plans are? I think my live-in partner and I have decent boundaries, but we know what the other person is doing almost 100% of the time. Part of this is because we share a car, so we need to know when the other person plans to have it, but beyond that – how else do people plan whether or not they will be eating dinner together? Timing for said dinner? Whether or not to expect to spend time together? And that’s without any kids or dogs in the picture!
In my own life, I have a lots of long after work commitments and my SO knows what they are (“hobby class”, “sports”) and when I am generally expected home, as well as whether we plan on eating together. Ditto him.
Unless people are going to botox/etc. appointments entirely during the work day, I’m struggling to see how you could have a procedure and it /not/ come up with a live-in SO. Or I guess if the SO travels a lot…
Is my arrangement more off base than I thought?
Anon
We check in with each other pretty regularly – probably about the same as you described. I also have a lot of after work commitments and I’m just more social than he is. He doesn’t remember exactly where I am, but he knows if I have an evening meeting that will last until around 7, or that I’m having drinks with friends and he should get dinner on his own, etc.
Ellen
My ex knew everything I did, and where and when I did it, so if I ever were to do Botox, he would have known about it as soon as I put it in my calendar. He was a control freak, and I am so glad I no longer have him in my life, living in my apartement, eating all of my food and barfing in the bathroom. FOOEY on control freaks who want to control all aspects of my life. I shy away from new men who appear to have similar traits, so I will probably wind up single, Dad thinks. DOUBEL FOOEY on that! Why can’t I find a man who just will listen to me and respect me for my brains?
Veronica Mars
My partner and I know where each other are about 85% of the time. We have weekly “business meetings” where we go over the budget, upcoming expenses, looking at the calendar, planning our activities, discussing what birthday gifts we’ll get for family this month (there’s always a birthday), etc. During the day, we don’t really check in, so I’m not aware if he’s going to lunch outside the office, or he doesn’t know if I run to target on my break. But on the weekends, it would be weird for me to just leave the house and run around without a quick text of “running errands” or something like that. He’d be like, “where’d you go?” and my reaction would be the same.
anne-on
+1 – I WFH when not on the road and schedule a lot of ‘routine maintenance’ appointments either first thing during the work day (8am/8:45) or over lunch or during my normal evening gym time. I don’t hide it per se, but I do find it weird to announce to my spouse/kid/sitter at 6:30 – ok, quarterly Botox for migraines tomorrow after drop off! going to go get a wax after dinner, see you all in 20!
Of course, my spouse, often forget these appointments, and then asks me in front of said kid/sitter. Which led to multiple questions about waxing/lasers/needles (does it hurt? yep! is it hot? sort of, you ask for needles on purpose?!? etc.). I suppose at least he’s aware of the stuff women/girls go through at least?
Anonymous
I pick up the kids from school and feed them dinner. He knows that he can have any leftovers, but I won’t hold dinner for him on a weekday. I typically add in an errand en route to pick up the kids (flexible window from 4-6), so that may be the grocery store, Target, gas station, allergy shots, post office. I couldn’t swing in a proper workout, but I could get Botox easily (15 minutes)?
Likewise, I may ask him to pick up something on his drive home or he may run an errand en route. We are generally home by 6:30-7 each day but then we go out again for kids activities on some nights. Sometimes I go on a walk during kids’ activities or run still more errands or do work tasks tethering my wifi. But I am always looking at what I need to do and trying to be efficient.
I had two co-workers once who managed their affair solely during work hours (icky), so Botox is nothing.
Cb
We have a child so I think that makes a difference (we coordinate on pickups) but my husband generally knows where I am/when I am at yoga / out. We work about 10 minutes walk apart though and commute in together so our lives feel more intertwined.
Rainbow Hair
Similarly, with the kid it seems imperative that we’re all up in one another’s business.
He’s a SAHD so while I know he bikes Kiddo to school between 8 and 8:30, and picks her up between 3 and 4, I don’t know exactly what he’s doing all day (like if he bikes to the store or goes for a run, or is just doing house stuff) or really between pickup and when I get home from work (unless he texts me a pic from the park or the ice cream shop)… but if he has an appointment or an important errand, I know because we share a car so we have to work out the logistics on that.
Similarly, I leave the house at 7:15ish for work, and then text him when I’m heading home around 5, and I let him know if there are errands I’m running en route. I don’t text if I’m going to Target on my lunch break or buying ramen or whatever, because it doesn’t impact him, but if I’m doing something that’ll get me home half an hour later than usual, that’s something he needs to know for dinner planning purposes. In the afternoons/evenings, if I have an appointment, gym class, etc., I’ll let him know because the expectation is that we’re both home and doing family stuff from 5:30 until Kiddo’s bedtime. I’ll say “I’m running errands” and he doesn’t need a detailed itinerary, but I don’t just swan out unexplained. Same on the weekends; we’ve gotta know what the other is doing because someone’s gotta be with the kid at all times!
Anon
We know roughly where the other is 100% of the time. I can’t think of a time in recent memory where that wasn’t true beyond maybe my husband not knowing EXACTLY where I was when I went on a hike in a nearby park or when I worked abroad in remote sub-Saharan Africa for a few months or when I go out to run an errand. I don’t really see how other couples that share a car, a schedule, etc can be that much different. Even when we’re each doing our own activities, we know where the other is.
Senior Attorney
We’re pretty much the same, give or take Hubby going to court downtown although even though I usually know about it. Yesterday he was surprised that I went to a doctor’s appointment rather than the gym after work, but that was unusual.
Anon
Pre-kids, we didn’t discuss the details of our day as much. But now that we have a kid everything is a juggle because only one of us can be out of the house at a time (or we need to arrange/pay for a babysitter) so going out for simple errands requires communicating with the other person. I definitely tell my husband “I need to do X on Saturday afternoon from 2-3:30 pm, can you be home then?” If I was getting Botox I could definitely not hide it without lying about where I was going.
Housecounsel
Generally yes, almost all the time. Our whole family is on Life360 so I could look if I felt a need to do so. I also think having kids changes things. We have to discuss who is “covering” what kid activities are happening.
Worry About Yourself
Yeah, that’s basically the case with my relationship too. My boyfriend isn’t trying to track me by any means, but we generally fill each other in when we have post-work plans or we have stuff going on on the weekend, if only so we’re on the same page about dinner. Sometimes he runs errands after work and I often have some sort of fitness class keeping me out until 8pm. I mean, I could go out on a Saturday afternoon and claim to be going to the mall when I’m really getting Botox and he’d probably be none the wiser, but I can’t imagine how I would keep that a secret long-term and I can’t imagine wanting to.
Anonymous
I’m single but this is something I’ve struggled with in past relationships; I’ll definitely be following this thread. I’m a pretty open book, I communicate about what I’m doing. I’ve had guys push back hard on me expecting that I’ll know more or less where they are, though. I’m not your mom I don’t want you to ask permission or something, I just think it’s super weird if I text you and you’re at a birthday party you never mentioned – and it happens repeatedly so it’s not like he just forgot once. Idk if this is a sign they’re not ready for a relationship or if it’s just a personal preference.
Cat
yeah I feel like this is part of living together as a couple? Like if one of us has an after-work event, we tell the other what we’re doing — so there’s not a “where are you, this is your normal getting home time?” worry. On weekends, in the mornings we map out our days (which errands we’ll run together, which separately, if we have reservations, etc). Randomly disappearing to go to an appointment would be super weird in our house!
Housecounsel
And I get Botox during the workday so he doesn’t know and we don’t discuss. As I said before, though, other injections leave telltale marks.
Anonymous
But doesn’t he notice that you look different? Unless you’ve gotten Botox regularly during your entire relationship, I would think it would be kind of obvious to someone who knew you that well.
Anon
Not Housecounsel and I don’t get Botox, but my husband usually doesn’t notice when I get my hair cut and styled so I doubt he would notice Botox.
Anonymous
I don’t think that people look different with Botox unless they get more than their 11s done. The 11s help with BRF, so maybe you just look less annoyed (a good thing), especially if you aren’t.
If you have frozen your entire face (and it previously moved), that is different.
Injections always look overdone and fake to me.
CountC
They may be lying to me, but most people are shocked when I tell them I get Botox. I only get my 11s done and it’s subtle enough that my forehead still wrinkles. It’s really not a drastic change.
ElisaR
my husband never notices botox. i’ve told him but he doesn’t notice hair, makeup, clothes, definitely not a smooth a forehead.
shananana
Yep, I get Botox done and honestly it just means 2 weeks later I look less tired. I get the lines in my forehead done (lucky to not have 11s at this point, I have WTF raised eyebrow creases instead).
Housecounsel
He seriously wouldn’t notice.
ElisaR
+1
Anonymous
We have three kids and definitely know exact details re pick up/drop off but if it’s not my pick-up day, he doesn’t necessarily know if I leave the office at 5pm and get Botox before heading home or if I leave the office at 6pm. Similarly, we don’t always discuss what we did at lunch time.
Not sure I’d keep Botox a secret but I also feel like I don’t need anyone’s judgments on what I do with my body, including my DH’s.
Anon
Married 20+ years. Generally yes, we know where the other one is, I think the 85% mark someone else mentioned is about right. I don’t explicitly enumerate all of my random errands that I may run in a day, and he doesn’t enumerate his either. I generally do say when I’m going to the doctor, just as a topic of conversation. My husband is a little less sharing, and so sometimes I won’t hear about a dentist or doctor visit until after the fact. I don’t share the granular details of my GYN visits because unless something is wrong, I don’t feel like that’s necessary.
My husband wouldn’t have any opinion about me doing a cosmetic procedure but just knowing him as well as I do – he would think it was silly but not say anything. I would tell him because as was mentioned on the thread yesterday, any time you have a medical procedure there’s a risk of complications. If, say, I got some kind of infection and dropped to the floor unable to communicate, I would want him to know what to tell medical professionals. Anecdata, my aunt works as an ICU nurse. A few years ago a woman showed up in the ICU in a coma and they couldn’t figure out what had happened to her. It turned out she had had fat injections in her posterior at a sketchy plastic surgeon and developed a fat embolism. Her family was completely in the dark about it; one of her friends ended up telling them what the woman had had done. They had to remove her from life support after a few weeks. I would err on the side of telling vs. not telling when you get a procedure done.
Anonymous
During week. Find a place near work and go at lunchtime or leave work 1/2 hour early.
you're not weird
Husband and I generally know where the other person is, even if it’s just out with friends. We both do hobbies that keep us out in the evenings, so it’s usually just coordinating in the morning on whether one/both of us will be out late and whether we’re eating dinner together. We also usually check in during the day as well on what time we’re coming home. So if I go out with a friend for dinner, he won’t know exactly where I am or what time I’m coming home, but he knows the general details. On weekends, we coordinate and spend most of the day together, so it would be really weird for one of us to just disappear. We’re both adults with phones and transport, so we don’t need to know the exact location and exact time of arrival/departure, but we generally know which hobby one of us is doing, which mostly informs what time we’ll be home, and how that affects dinner plans.
Vicky Austin
We work together, so we see each other’s work calendars. Most things are on there. 85% is probably about right.
Anon
We share a car and commute together every day (to different companies), so we basically always know where the other person is. When we worked different schedules and had two cars, we didn’t know where the non-working person was (at home, running errands, out with friends, etc.) and we’ve never tracked each other on our phones.
Midway
We have kids so we always communicate about plans for non-work hours. When we get bome, we talk about our days. If I got my nails done at lunch, I would mention it then. I was surprised to learn that other couples wouldn’t even mention something like that. Different strokes for different folks.
If I got Botox, my husband would definitely know. But I’m black so I’ll never need it!
busybee
We text each other throughout the day and pretty much always know what the other is doing. He works unusual hours and we do a lot of advance planning and communication regarding our plans. It is astonishing to me that so many women’s husbands don’t notice their Botox, hair, makeup, etc. My husband notices alllll the details, but he is an undercover narcotics officer so maybe that’s just a byproduct of his job.
Anon for this
I’m another law enforcement spouse and we also text each other throughout the day and share a lot of detail. We both have jobs where there is some safety concern so I like him to know where I was and when to expect me. He also starts dinner most nights for us so I text when I leave work and if I’m stopping somewhere on the way home, I usually text where. He does the same. He will even text me when he’s going out for a run and then when he’s back home even if I’m still at work so if he just never made it home, we would know where to start looking. I think that level of “worst case scenario” thinking is a byproduct of the job.
He also shares his locations with me on his phone because he can’t just have his phone on do not disturb (he gets lots of work calls / texts) but I don’t want to call/text when he’s in someone’s house and he needs to be focused. I’ll often check his location before randomly texting him unless he has already texted me. Or if I see that he’s on the road I’ll call instead of text.
Anonymous
My husband is not in law enforcement and once managed to park his car in the garage without noticing that my car was next to it, but he would totally notice if I changed my appearance.
Anon
I’m single but I feel like this is just a common courtesy, no?
I mean, even my roommate and I keep each other updated if we have plans after work or are working late and will be home later than normal.
I actually can’t imagine not having a general idea of where a serious/live in boyfriend would be.
Anon
Married. We know where each other are in a general sense. I’m not going to tell him every little stop I make but there is definitely always communication in the sense of “at work” “going to X doctor before work” “going out to X bar with friends on Saturday” “going grocery shopping”, etc. Mainly for security purposes. If I disappear someone should know generally where I could have been.
Anonymous
I don’t do this, but I know couples that have each other on iPhone Find My Friends so they can easily check where their SO is without having to ask directly!
Anonymous
I mean – I have a vague idea of where my husband is at all times (and vice versa). But as I type, I have no idea if he ended work early and went for a hair cut or if he’s sitting in the school parking lot about to pick up our daughter. We don’t really text or talk during the day unless plans are going awry.
Chilicothe OH
Maybe someone is from Chilicothe OH. If you were a pediatric nurse practitioner and had an option to go there (and some sort of public health loan forgiveness program in the background), would it be a good fit for 3-5 years?
Roommate’s sister is considering. She is sweet, mid-20s, maybe a bit naive (her family is very vanilla, from MD suburbs of DC). I get that she wants to help people who need helping and this is a very affordable place to live if you are starting out. I am not sure what the social or out of work options are.
I lived in a rural area when I clerked and felt really lonely but threw myself into my job and knew that my time there had an expiration date. Hiking and being outdoors were great ways to enjoy a new area. Dating really didn’t happen at all though, which often took me away every single weekend just to talk to people my own age and maybe meet someone (didn’t happen, but I made a ton of weekend friends).
Anon
Hi – I don’t live in Chillicothe, but I’m not too far away and my parents have friends who live there.
For 3-5 years, I think it would be fine. There’s not a lot to do right in Chillicothe, but she would only be an hour from Columbus and about an hour and forty-five minutes from Cincinnati. There are several state parks nearby if she likes the outdoors.
Anon
I don’t know anything about Ohio, but as someone who lives in the middle of nowhere an hour from a big-ish city and two hours from a really big city, I caution you about falling into the “only an hour from X” trap. An hour one way, two hours roundtrip, is really not that close, and although she can certainly visit Columbus on occasion, it’s going to be an incredibly different life for her than if she lived in Columbus or its suburbs. I don’t mind living in a small town but I’m married and have kids and care about boring adult things like whether the public schools are good and whether my neighbors will keep an eye on my house when I’m out of town. I would have hated being in a town this far from civilization as a 20-something.
pugsnbourbon
Co-sign this. Grew up in a small town in Ohio and went to college not far from Chillicothe, actually. The nearest Target is an hour away. And I agree with the comments below about the isolation, drug problems, etc.
I will say that it’s a beautiful part of the state and there are tons of options for hiking, camping, etc if she’s outdoorsy.
Anon.
This.
TheElms
Columbus is a great mid-sized city I think. There are good restaurants and museums and great parks nearby. And I always find the people really friendly. (Family live there but I’m not from there so only know it through visiting.) So if being an hour from those things is ok with her (i.e. reasonably easy to do on a weekend, but probably not a weeknight) then it might be a great option for her.
Senior Attorney
I wonder whether living halfway would be an option? Half an hour commute to work and half an hour to the city?
Anon
I live near there. It’s in the epicenter of the opioid epidemic. I wouldn’t move there in my mid-20s, if I could avoid it.
Anonymous
Oh. I have a friend who is a pediatrician and her practice has had to make some calls about what to do with their peds patients who really need adult doctors because they are living adult lives (kids of their own, drug + alcohol issues, etc.) that are not typically seen in her prior peds practice. It was such a burden for them (peds is under-practitionered) that those kids now have to go to the adult doctors (internist, OB-GYN, etc.) so that they can take kids who they’d otherwise send to the free clinic (long waits for basic care). And sometimes people try to break in to any doctor office on the assumption that there will be drugs inside (even for peds), so dark parking lots at night meant hiring a security guard for the staff.
Anon
I’m not from there, but I worked in that area for a bit. I would find another place to go. It’s one of the most depressing places I’ve ever been (it’s been on the downswing for 60 years! JFK tried to fix it!) . Now, it’s also ground zero in the opioid crisis.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/no-longer-mayberry-a-small-ohio-city-fights-an-epidemic-of-self-destruction/2016/12/29/a95076f2-9a01-11e6-b3c9-f662adaa0048_story.html
If you’re a nurse, you have lots of options. There has to be another affordable area where you could go, and get the loan forgiveness. I would not go there for 5 years (1 year, maybe). Her social life would be VERY VERY difficult because of the opioid crisis, and substance abuse in that area in general. Its an area where the young people who can get out, get out.
Anonymous
That article is sobering. I had surgery recently and was surprised that I got something like 30 pills. But that is nothing like getting hundreds on a refillable prescription. I get that there are chronic pain patients, but if that’s not you, I don’t think that you should get a starter dose that is > 10 pills (and that you shouldn’t have these be refillable).
ElisaR
so sad but true
MD
I think you are missing the point of this job opportunity.
When you are working in healthcare, and hoping to take advantage of loan forgiveness, and want to make an impact on people who truly need help… this is the kind of place you go. You run to the epicenter of the opioid crisis. You move to a place that’s more depressed. That’s how it works.
You don’t get loan forgiveness for working in trendy, popular cities that everyone in healthcare wants to go to. In fact, the pay is often worse in those cities because of the competition.
She will be fine. She will learn TONS and be quite busy and not need a busy nightlife.
anon
Have you *been* to Chillicothe? It s u cks. Sorry – she should know.
Anon
+1
Anon
“Roommate’s sister”
Why are you involved in this decision making process?
Anon
Maybe she is a decent human being who is trying to be helpful?
She did not say she was involved in the decision making process. She is just trying to get input from a resource she has so that she can provide that information to a friend, probably because she was involved in a conversation about it.
RR
So, I was born and raised in Chillicothe, Ohio, and my parents still live there. (Regular poster, but totally anon for this, because it may out me.)
Chillicothe has some issues–like much of Southern Ohio, it’s caught up in the opioid epidemic. It’s relatively small (not tiny Mayberry small, but a small city.) That said, it was a great place to grow up, and I think it’s experiencing a bit of a comeback now. It has lots of cute local shops, decent healthcare, good school options (understand that may not matter to your friend). It has tons of restaurants–most of the big chain options and lots of local options. It just got a local brewery, which I hear great things about. It’s pretty close to Columbus, Ohio (really about 45 minutes to downtown Columbus, which is where I live now), which has lots of culture. (I wouldn’t recommend living halfway–the towns between C’bus and Chillicothe are probably worse than anything you could think about Chillicothe.) Lots of people commute between C’bus and Chillicothe (including my father for about a decade). It’s also just 2 hours from Cincinnati and all of its culture. And as others have said, the nature around Chillicothe is gorgeous. It’s surrounded by rural areas, but it is a small city and not itself rural–there aren’t cows downtown or anything. It has rich history (Chillicothe was the first capital of Ohio and the capital of the entire Northwest Territory; it has a national park devoted to the Hopewell culture.)
I’m not deluding myself about the realities of Chillicothe. I haven’t lived there in 25 years, and I know it’s changed–for the worse in many ways, although there are definitely more restaurants and shops now than when I was growing up. The opioid epidemic is awful, without question. But, I think it would be a fine place to live for a few years for loan forgiveness. I know lots of people who still live there and are professionals, teachers, parents, etc. with lovely lives.
Anonymous
As a total random aside, this is making me wonder about the name Chillicothe. I grew up near a Chillicothe in Kansas, and now I want to know who or what this name refers to, that it was used more than once.
[Off to Google. …]
A pause in which I learn it’s a Shawnee language term, and there’s one in Missouri too. That town says of itself: The word “Chillicothe” is derived from the ancient Shawnee Indian words meaning “Principal Place.” It was the name for one of their clans. The main chief of the Shawnee could only come from the Chillicothe clan. When a village was called Chillicothe, it meant that it was home to the principal chief.
RR
Yes, and the Shawnee culture definitely left its mark on Chillicothe, OH. There’s even an outdoor drama (small town famous) about Tecumseh–a famous Shawnee chief.
Anonymous
tldr: if you have a large chunk of spare cash and a large mortgage, how do you decide whether to pay down mortgage, recast mortgage, or just invest the money and leave the mortgage alone?
I’m single in a VHCOL area. I recently purchased a home and I now have a large mortgage payment…50% of my takehome pay (this is after taxes, maxing 401K, etc…it’s more like 25% of my gross pay). I also have profit from the sale of my previous home with which I could pay down the mortgage substantially, either simply prepaying, or else recasting so I have a much smaller monthly payment. My mortgage rate is already super low (3.25%) so the “sensible” thing to do is probably to invest in the market and presumably get more than 3.25%…but there is a part of me that worries about the worst case scenario (unexpectedly losing my job, outrunning my 6 month emergency fund, my investment portfolio has tanked so I no longer have the money I started with) and feels like I should just reduce the debt even though it’s not financially optimal. Trying to figure out how to decide…
Anonymous
with it being that high of a percentage of your take-home pay, I would definitely pay off a chunk of the mortgage. Make sure you have an appropriate emergency fund then put the rest agains the mortgage principal.
Anon
+1. You sound like you could be house-poor otherwise.
Senior Attorney
And of course paying off a bunch of the principle won’t lower your payments unless you refinance, which I think would be a good idea.
Poppies
Some banks let you “recast,” which means you can pay down a chunk (usually they have a minimum, like 10%), and they will recalculate your monthly payments. You keep your interest rate, etc.; still the same mortgage just different payment amount.
Senior Attorney
Really? I’ve never heard of that! Thanks for the info!
Anonymous
You are me a year ago. I paid down my mortgage with the profit from the sale of previous home. Debt reduction/peace of mind were more valuable than the financially optimal plan of investing. I have no regrets!
HFB
At some point this just becomes a do what makes you feel better question. In my work I help people who are facing foreclosure and in my view relatively liquid funds are more valuable than lower mortgage payment. So in your shoes I’d want to make that 6 month emergency fund into a 1year emergency fund before doing anything else. (I’m assuming your emergency fund is in some kind of savings account, safe from the hazards of the market). Then if you still have money leftover, choose between putting it in the market or paying down your mortgage based on what feels better.
There’s no objective formula that will decide the right course of action for everyone. Some people have excellent job security and can therefore afford to risk having more in investments vs emergency fund. Also your mortgage is 50% of your take home but you didn’t say how much that is in dollars. If that means it leaves you with $1k per mo th for everything else that’s a lot different than if it leaves you with $5k. Also it matters where you live and what the COL is. How good is your health ins coverage? Lots of factors to consider.
Anonymous
Thanks for all responses so far. After paying mortgage plus HOA fees I’m left with $3000 a month for all the rest of my expenses/additional savings, which is definitely sufficient for me…it’s only an issue if I lose my job or take a significantly lower paying one. My job is stable barring surprises, I think it’s just a little scary to see this new huge number instead of my old tiny one.
HFB
In those circumstances it boils down to how committed are you to this house? If confronted with a dramatic change in income potential are you going to be willing to suck it up and sell sooner or later? This is an individual choice.
TheElms
In similar circumstances we took the money from the sale of our first house and recast the mortgage on the second house. It lowered our monthly payment meaningfully and we plan to do it again in the next year or so, once we save up enough to make another meaningful impact on the monthly payment. Arguably we didn’t need to recast because our jobs are pretty secure and the absolute dollar value of our income after mortgage is a biggish number. Our financial planner thought we should invest rather than recast. However, I think the market is pretty overinflated at the moment (my opinion, others may disagree), and ultimately we decided we wanted more flexibility down the road to take lower paying jobs and to do that comfortably we need a lower monthly mortgage payment. So think about what your longer term goals are and whether your income is likely to increase or decrease.
DCR
I’m in a similar situation, as my mortgage is about 40% of my take home pay and I could significantly pay it down with some bonus money. I’ve decided not to do that for a few reason; my job is very secure; I have a 6 month emergency funding in a savings account; I’m not sure about my future plans and like the flexibility that significant money in my investment account provides; the rate of return in my investment account is so much higher than my less than 4% mortgage interest rate; I still have significant extra money at the end of the month to save; and I do think I spend less money than I would if I wasn’t paying such a high mortgage.
Having said that, I don’t think there is a right answer. The best financial option may be to put the money in an investment account, but your personal feeling about it are important and any security you feel from a lower mortgage should not be undervalued.
anon
My review is coming up! I think the review will be positive so I am looking to make the conversation productive for me in terms of learning about my chances for partner and track for advancement. I also have been very overworked lately and want to address that as well. I know these are tricky things to balance in a single conversation so send me good vibes!
January
Good luck!!
Salary question
I’m trying to get a sense of whether my compensation is in line with market. Im a 2012 law school grad working in house at a Fortune 500 company in a hcl area. I make 180k salary with a 25% bonus target. Can people share their graduation year, salary and bonus target? Also size of company?
Anon
I think that sounds about right. 2009 grad, MCOL city F500, $200K, 25% bonus target.
Anon 4 this
I was offered a job that I didn’t take in house for personal reasons at a Fortune 200, 2010 grad, 210 base plus 20% bonus (put to me as guaranteed unless the company was in free fall and had been paid in each of the prior 10 years).
Anonymous
Similar position but lower salary. Offered a job but didn’t take it, 185k plus 20%, 2010 grad, MCOL area.
Anonymous
2008 law grad, in-house since Sept 2019, global company 80k employees, 14bn revenue, LCOL area, $130k salary (our raises were cut by 30% last fiscal year so it would have been a bit more), with a 15% bonus target.
Anonymous
I should add that I had not been in an attorney role for almost 7 years before I took the in-house role. I was law-adjacent for several years prior to moving into the in-house role.
Anon
2015 Grad, in-house at Fortune 500. $114k base, 15% bonus
anon
Woefully, woefully underpaid and hate my job, but 2012 grad with 130k salary and 15% target bonus. I came from biglaw and am still nowhere near that salary. Company is Fortune 500 and in Chicago. I never work nights or weekends, though. But also have no development/upward growth opportunities. My role changed significantly and I took on more responsibility and it didn’t change my salary, it just increases a smidge with inflation each year. I am on my way out.
Anon for this
2008 grad, inhouse at a private company in a HCOL city, 210K + 20% (or more depending on company performance) bonus, good 401k match
Anonymous
2012 grad, in-house at around-200 person company. $250k base, 66% bonus target (20% bonus guaranteed). No 401k match but small equity awards in addition to cash comp and no healthcare premiums. 50-60 hrs/week, no weekends and protected vacation time.
Anonymous
Oops, I accidentally miscalculated. My bonus target is 86% of my base. I have been sort of fussy about my comp being low this year but this thread is making me rethink that!
Anonymous
Holy cow, 86%?
Anon
Wait, you get 86% of your base salary as a bonus? That’s wild to me!
Anon
Wow! It sounds like you make over $450 a year with your bonus and have a small equity awards too. That seems really high to me.
Anon Now
2008 grad, associate general counsel (company has 250 employees), mcol, pretty solid benefits (no healthcare premiums for HMO, good 401k match), reasonable hours (about 50/week when not traveling, management very understanding re needing to miss for a kid’s appointment, etc.), $180k, bonus less than 10%. Huh this is making me wonder if I’m not getting as much as I should/could.
Anon4This
2007 grad. VHCOL city. In house at Fortune 500. $275 base with 25% bonus target. (Plus stocks, etc). Work sporadic weekends and evenings.
Angela
2010 grad, MCOL city, $190k base plus 20% bonus, F100 company.
Anonymous
2006 grad, associate general counsel at 400 person privately held company in HCOL city. $160k base, 10% bonus target, equity. 401k match, no healthcare premiums. I occasionally work nights and weekends.
AnonInHouse
2007 grad, counsel at F100 multinational, $205k with basically no bonus (couple thousand dollars, maybe). That salary is fairly recent though; for the 7+ years at my company, I made between $150-160k. MCOL area.
anon
This thread is weirdly applicable to me. 2012 grad. I’m in-house at a family office making 150k with 10% possible bonus and up to 6% 401(k) match. Super relaxed work environment – no nights or weekends and can roll in after carpool, so I’m pretty happy.
Anon
This probably a weird question for this board but giving it a shot.
I work in a profession where I mostly am in a business casual office but do field work a few days a week. When I do field work I pretty much need to be in cargo pants/tactical pants (need the pockets/durability/protection from elements). They’re ugly as sin, but it’s not too bad, except that I’m a pear and my issued pants (from 511 tactical) just don’t fit.
I checked out Columbia , Eddie Bauer, REI and Patagonia and couldn’t find what I was looking for. Any suggestions?
embees
Duluth Trading?
pugsnbourbon
+1.
Anonymous
Also a tactical pants Q: I need some for my daughter, who is 5-4 and about 100 pounds. And 11. Too big for kids’ clothes. Not enough hips for women’s clothes. Help! I hear several rounds of mail order roulette.
anon
North Face or Nike?
Anonymous
Try boys in tall if necessary. I’m 110 at 5’4″, rectangle shape, boys trousers fit me. So do girls 14 for some cuts, like joggers.
Away Game
My daughter pretty much only buys boys’ pants these days, even for sweatpants at Old Navy. Real pockets – not silly shallow ones! -and roomier, she tells me. A very helpful sales associate at REI pointed her to the boys’ hiking pants (less tapered = greater range of movement) and she hasn’t looked back.
waffles
maybe a boy’s size would work for your daughter?
Anonymous
If work pants would be acceptable, check out Dovetail. I have not bought any myself but was tempted by a link in a Cup of Jo article even though real work pants would be overkill for my purposes.
navychica
Have you tried Kuhl? I’m pear shaped, and they fit me better than Patagonia does
anon
+1. I’m a pear and also have a hard time wearing Patagonia. Even jackets — if it fits my shoulders and bust, it’s uncomfortably tight around the bottom.
Prana and Eddie Bauer might be other options.
Anon
Prana’s are great. REI carries a nice selection.
I’m a very slight pear (1 size difference)
Anonymous
Another pear-shape, and I love Prana’s pants, and Kuhl also fit me fairly well.
Lots to Learn
I’m a pear and I love the Marmot Kodachrome pants. I have the full length and the ones that zip into shorts…
Vicky Austin
Red Ants Pants?
Anon
Second! This is such a cool company. I also highly recommend their music festival ;)
Cat Mom
Go to a law enforcement equipment store. You do not need to have a badge to buy clothes there. (You do need to have a badge if you are ordering “police only” stuff like extra badges.) You can try on a variety of different brands of pants and see what works for you. If possible, go to one that sells EMS equipment too.
Another option is workngear or similar stores.
Lastly, and this is a little out there but may work for the mom of the 11 year old – try Hot Topic! When I first graduated college I worked in corrections and a lot of the adult tactical stuff didn’t fit me properly. I actually got a belt and pants at Hot Topic that was inspired by real work wear but made to fit Juniors cut bodies and it worked much better for me. My hips didn’t come in until my 30’s for some reason!
Cat Mom
To be clear, by EMS I mean ambulance personnel that wear similar pants to what you need, not Eastern Mountain Sports, the outdoor store.
Anon
Well rats… I just learned that 5.11 Tactical is a division of Cintas. I was going to recommend Cintas work pants… I’m curvy and they fit me perfectly (especially the Cathy fit). Are you issued pants the women’s version? If not, there is a women’s version of the 5.11 Taclite Pro pant. http://www6.cintasvip.com/uniformcatalog/product.asp?pc=73017%2ECAT&i=73017&p=INETPUBLIC&s=14622&catcode=&ecps=&k=73017.CAT
Anon
Thank you all so much!! This is immensely helpful!
I literally don’t own a pair of pants that isn’t curvy fit, except for my issued tac pants. Will check out the recommendations for curvy fit/pears this weekend!
anon in brooklyn
Is the issue with the tactical pants just that there’s a big waist gap when they fit your hips? If so, it might be a really easy alteration.
Anon
Consider Carhartt and other outdoor workwear stores as well. In Canada we have a store called Mark’s that would have a lot of reasonable options.
Anon
Pear here with sturdy legs..Carhartt Original Fit Fleece Lined Crawford Pant, available on the river site (and elsewhere) fit me well. I found them true to size. I will say that a pair of size 6’s weighs seemingly 2 lbs. Sturdy fabric and cozy lining.
Anonymous
Mountain Hardwear?
Housecounsel
This sweater is cute, but the second you reach for something over your head, or just stretch, won’t it ride up and display your torso? I mean, I want the world to see my super toned 50-year-old J. Lo abs, but maybe not everyone feels this way . . .
Cat
wouldn’t this be a problem for anything with sleeves by your standard? I find sweaters to be OK on this front because they stretch, vs. a blouse with tight sleeves…
Housecounsel
I definitely tend to wear blouses and sweaters that are long enough to tuck in or cover the belt line more than this one.
Anon
Why would this be an issue with this sweater more than any other? I have a sweater like this – I love it and it doesn’t rise up at all.
Anon
Why do so many parents let their kids listen to loud shows on their smartphones without headphones while in public? What’s the reasoning? I hear it with increasing frequency and find it incredibly annoying, but I don’t know why it’s happening because clearly everyone knows headphones exist and you should use them.
Worry About Yourself
Yeah, I wonder that too. Is there a concern that headphones are bad for kids’s ears? Are they worried the kid will get too immersed and they won’t listen (or even notice?) if mom or dad says something to them? Or do they just not have headphones in that moment, and figure it’s still better to let the kid occupy his or herself with a noisy show than let them get bored and risk an even louder tantrum?
While I’ve been working at the mall, I’ve seen these strollers you can rent that lets the kid watch Nick Jr. shows while you shop, which is an interesting concept and something I wish we had when I was a kid, but I don’t even know if it has a headphone jack because the kids getting rolled into the store watching Dora are never using them.
Anonamom
How old are the kids in question? Sometimes we don’t trust our young children to keep the volume on the headphones at a safe level. Sometimes kids are so small that it’s hard to get the headphones to fit right. Sometimes we forget the headphones at home and are trying keep the child from running around in circles and screaming at the top of their lungs and being even more disruptive to your life. And are battling with the kid to keep the volume at a level where it doesn’t bother you. Some of us are really trying… and some of us have given up.
Anon
I believe that there are headphones that have volume control for kids built-in. Perhaps that would work better for you.
MD
+1
I bought over the ear headphones for my niece that have safety volume settings designed for kids. They are purple and big so harder to lose.
anon
Well, devices are the easiest way to distract a kid in the short-term so they’re not whining and crying, and lots of kids won’t wear headphones. I don’t let my kid use devices with sound in a public place, but 90% of the time, that means at least one adult has to actually parent him–actively engage, pay attention, etc.–while we’re at the restaurant, on the plane.
I remember one particular flight to Orlando when I could hear multiple versions of Frozen, all started at slightly different times after boarding the plane. It was awful, but I just had to laugh.
Anon
Kid won’t wear headphones, kid doesn’t watch show. Considering that kids are obsessed with devices/constantly begging for them, it seems like most should be willing to wear headphones to make it happen.
anon@10:46
Most, probably. My kid has sensory issues and has never kept on a hat, pair of sunglasses, hood, headphones, etc. since he was old enough to yank them off. He will complain about how bright the sun is but yell at me if I dare to offer him sunglasses.
But ultimately, I agree. No headphones, no show. That means other adults will hear his normal speaking voice and maybe an occasional squeal or yell, and then I will do my best to remind him of the appropriate volume.
Worry About Yourself
Oh no! I actually like Frozen, but that would drive me insane!
Anon
Honestly, I think we as a society expect way too much of kids. They talk loudly and occasionally squeal and cry. If we considered this the normal behavior that it is, and didn’t expect children to be perfectly silent on planes there would be way fewer parents resorting to screens. Most parents I knew give their kids tablets because they are terrified of the reaction from fellow passengers if their kids make a peep.
Anon
Give the kid a tablet, whatever – but the kid MUST wear headphones.
Anonymous
Once they can read, you can also just mute a device and put the captions on. I hate earphones and my kids have never used them at home. They use them sometimes at school.
Anon
Some kids won’t wear headphones but the parents feel they have to keep the child silent, so they use a tablet without headphones. I don’t! We obviously do our best to entertain our child and avoid meltdowns, but my view is people can deal with the occasional random noise or even some crying. But a lot of parents feel more guilty about their kids acting like kids in public.
Anon
I agree that this why many parents give their kids devices. But I would rather listen to the kid talk loudly and squeal occasionally than have to listen to some kid’s show on loud volume.
dpmitten
+ One million percent.
anon
100% agree. We try not to resort to screens in public but have on occasion when the potential for unruliness is high and it seems risky to annoy the people around me. Honestly, public parenting is one of the most stressful things I do as a parent. There is so much judginess out there, particularly directed at moms, if children are acting like, well, children. And believe me, we have rules and boundaries and all that. We’re mindful about where we take them, and when. But guess what? They still aren’t perfectly behaved at all times!
Caveat: I have one child with ADHD. When he was ages 2-7ish, it manifested in a lot of loud, sometimes wild behavior because he had almost zero impulse control. Things are much better now (thank you for meds and therapy). But I will never forget how many people made me feel like crap because I “couldn’t control my kid.” Yeah … I was trying very hard, and so was he. But had I stuck him in front of a screen, they would’ve judged that, too.
Bottom line: Nobody can win here.
Anon
So true about the judginess. And the unsolicited advice! My kid had a terrible cough that was causing her to cry on our last flight and there were so many “helpful” strangers telling me “it’s her ears! You need to give her a hard candy to suck on.” A) It wasn’t her ears and B) hard candy is a choking hazard for one year olds. One woman actually went to the flight attendant and complained that I was ignoring my crying child because I told the woman politely that I was very sorry for the crying but my daughter was ill and it had nothing to do with her ears. By the way, when she complained to the flight attendant about the neglectful mom, there was no mention of my husband who was also on the plane and seated on the other side of our child. People are insane (and sexist).
Cat Mom
What did the flight attendant say/do?
Anon
Nothing. I overheard her tell the flight attendant, but I wouldn’t have known otherwise.
Anon
I do feel bad for the intense judgment you get. I know it must be incredibly frustrating and I really wish you could just turn off the unsolicited comments. However, wanting your kid to wear headphones is the same as I’d want for any other person – it drives so many people crazy when adult men blast music without headphones, etc., but it just seems much more common for parents of young children to be the culprits these days. Shrug off the people who want to judge whether or not you use screentime for your kids, but please take the headphones complaint as a plea for common courtesy, not a slam on your parenting style.
Seventh Sister
I’ve been irritated when people let kids use devices without headphones at an earsplitting volume, but as a parent who’s been dealing with other parents for about a decade, I can’t always bring myself to do the assertive thing and tell them to shut it down.
While flying with my kids is now a pretty painless thing (they are 8 and 11), I was That Parent with the screaming toddler on the longest flight ever between DC and Boston circa 2010. Nothing I did or said stopped her fury and she’s totally nice in public now. People in airports can be so judgy – I remember some Very Important Businessman complaining that I was marching my pajama-clad kids near (but not into!) his Very Important Businessman Section in the terminal because I was trying to tire them out for a night flight. Buddy, did you want to listen to them cry for an hour or two on the plane or have them fall asleep during takeoff?
Anonymous
The few times I’ve done it (like less than 5, but yes, I have, so shoot me…) it’s because we’re in meltdown and I don’t have headphones with me. I would never do it on a plane (I’m prepared for that), but have done in a restaurant and in a doctor’s office waiting room.
anon
Honestly, why do so many adults do this themselves?! I feel like everywhere I go, I have to deal with this… subway, planes (!), waiting rooms. It’s so annoying.
Angela
I’ll ask people to turn off the sound, it bothers me that much. I don’t care, and I’ve never had anyone refuse. I think many people just honestly don’t realize that it bothers other people around them or can be overheard.
Anonymous
I am totally no fun as a parent, so my go-bag has lots of notebooks and crayons and markers and stickers.
I loathe headphones though and don’t own any.
Anon
Forgive me, not a parent, but can’t you let your kid play one of those enticing smartphone games with the volume completely off? Why does the kid (and the rest of the world) need to hear the beeps and chimes and stuff like that?
Two Cents
I’m a mom of two kids and this is one of my biggest pet peeves as well. It’s incredibly rude and disruptive to everyone around.
For anyone who doesn’t have kids yet — don’t get in the habit of screens, esp. in public places. It becomes a bad habit that is hard to break.
My kids are now 5 and 7 and we keep them entertained in restaurants with Uno and coloring and just looking out the window.
Anonymous
I had a blackberry for so long that my kids never asked for it as it did nothing fun. And it was awesome!
I have an iphone now and we read “Terrible Maps” on FB or insta — the comments are hysterical. And also we follow Spark Notes on twitter.
Angela
If the kid was watching something for more than a couple of minutes, I’d have no problem leaning over to the parent and saying, “Do you mind having him turn off the sound or wear headphones? The noise is really distracting.”
Sad Nostalgia
Yesterday I had an informational interview with a high school student who was interested in my field (biomedical research). I gave her advice, some contacts, and talked in general about college apps (im about to turn 30). Then a few hours later I started feeling suuuper nostalgic about college days and those few years after. All the opportunities, new people to meet, lack of omnipresent social media/need to “keep up”. Ive been feeling down since then and am having trouble shaking it.
Back then i wasnt nearly as confident in myself, no longer dealing with friend drama (but id like more friends), can handle setbacks better, etc. But idk why this is getting at me. Anyone with a similar experience?
Anon
At least with me, this happens when parts of my life have clicked into place and others most definitely have not. It’s easy to look back on earlier times, knowing that some problems did not exist then (e.g., PTSD), and others would be solved (e.g., meeting my husband). So some problems look really small (because they would be resolved), and others had yet to exist, so it appears – until you think about it – that life was better then.
If your career is to the point that people are doing informational interviews, you’re not worried about that aspect of it working out. You’re not worried about never finding a job in your field. You may, however, be nostalgic for a time in which the world seemed full of opportunity for many fields, but forget that choosing one means forgoing all the others. Or you’re ignoring the very real stress you experienced as you built up your career.
Talbots blazers?
Can anyone comment on how the Talbots seasonless wool or flannel suiting blazers fit compared to the Aberdeen blazer, particularly in the petite 14-16 range? The only store within driving distance doesn’t carry suiting, so I’m considering an online order. I’m in Canada and returns will be expensive, so I’d like to be fairly confident they’ll fit before I order. I’m 5’1″, apple shaped, and my current Aberdeen blazer is a 16 petite. Thanks!!
Anonymous
I’m pretty consistent in their sizing for all those jackets but I don’t wear petite.
You should be able to return what doesn’t fit to your local store even if they don’t carry the items. I do that all the time. You also mght consider doing a telephone order from another store in Canada. You can tell which store has the item online. Then you won’t have to deal with duties/exchange and I think the shipping is fairly low cost.
M
Sorry, this is late, but I think the sizing is pretty consistent. I wear the same size in both, but the flannel doesn’t stretch so if the Aberdeen is at all tight, go up a size.
anon
Our master bedroom furniture is fairly traditional in style — sleigh bed, dark wood dressers. I want to keep the furniture, but I wouldn’t mind modernizing the overall look of the room. Any ideas for styles/colors/small tweaks? I’m thinking accessories can do some heavy lifting here. Or maybe a different duvet cover? The bedding is white and a spa blue color, which is starting to feel a little stale. The wall color is SW Sandy Ridge, a medium tan color. The whole room is due for a repaint in a year or two, but I’m trying to wait until we paint the whole first floor of the house.
Anonymous
I’d repaint the room. Probably white or a really light gray with blue undertones. Not sure what your bedding looks like, as the colors sound nice to to me, but I think bedding itself can read really dated. Maybe replace with a new plain white duvet and new throw pillows?
Anon
Definitely repaint, that colour is really drab. It’s hard to say without seeing pictures but it’s easy to update with modern bedding, window treatments, and lighting.
Although because your furniture is so dark and traditional, it might not look right for the rest of the room to be modern. I might lean into the traditional – look at a website like Pottery Barn for more traditional bedroom styling that is still stylish.
Veronica Mars
I love traditional/transitional decor, so I’d do a couple things– I’d break up the set you have now. Is there another bedroom you can move some of the dressers? If you get a new, more modern looking dresser with some brass accents, that can bring your room more into the modern. I’d repaint the room. Maybe something like BM Antique Jade or if you want to go bold, Iron Mountain. I’d change the drapes out for something white and sheer, Ikea has some lovely medium-weight curtains with a linen look. And if you really want to transition to something more fresh, I’d look at Pottery Barn, where they have big, 28×42 (or whatever it is) framed photographic prints for $200 (pre discount code). One King’s Lane also has some great prints. I’d get them as big as you can afford. Artist Jess Franks also has some art prints on sale under $200, and under $100–what I like about her color scheme is that she uses a lot of earthy, traditional colors and then injects some bright pops of colors you wouldn’t otherwise see, like turquoise, hot pink and lemon yellow. That could be a “bridge” in your room to some fresher colors. I’m planning on buying a print from Minted, Davidson Point (I think?) from Kelly Jonhston in the 44″ inch size. That also has some warm and earthy tones you could draw from. (Quiet moments or Palladian Blue would look nice on the wall with that painting).
Anon
Don’t wait to paint your room! I would go crazy with a beige bedroom.
anne-on
This seems relevant to our collective interests -an extra 10% off the sale at the Fold!
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Angela
On the topic of budgeting, what money-saving changes will there be to your budget in 2020 as compared to 2019? A few of ours:
– Saving $1300/month by having paid off a home improvement debt account
– Saving $80/month by leveling down our membership level at a local museum
– Saving $30/month by cancelling premium cable TV channels
– Saving $80/month next football season by NOT getting NFL direct Sunday Ticket
CountC
Go back to saving $500 per paycheck vs. $250.
Anon
Save untold millions by shopping at Whole Foods less. Otherwise, I feel like we’ve already done what we can do. I’m more trying to guard against lifestyle inflation.
Vicky Austin
Same re lifestyle inflation.
Anon
I’m really trying to be more intentional with buying clothes, buying quality items, and not just shopping because I’m bored.
anon
Same. I’m not pleased that shopping has become a recreational activity when I’m bored. I had a big wake-up call when I cleaned out my closet recently. Almost every item in the donate pile was something from Target or Old Navy that didn’t hold up well over time, or I frankly shouldn’t have purchased in the first place.
NOLA
I stopped shopping for clothes at Target years ago because it was just a money suck and too easy to inflate. I’m not pretty much the same about Old Navy. I have bought a few things, but like you, I end up not wearing them that much and donating. I only have a few tops that I regularly wear. I switched from ON jeans to Levi’s. When I’ve gone in an ON store, I can never find what I saw online, so I guess that helps. I do intend to buy some full length Pixie pants at some point. They are the only dress pants that fit me.
Anon
I had the exact same experience last weekend when I cleaned out my closet. Plus, I just ordered some Pixie pants from Old Navy and they are nowhere near the quality of my old ones, which still get wear. No more ON clothes for me.
Anonymous
Set aside 1/3 of each paycheck for estimated taxes since I am no longer a W-2. Hoard all extra cash to put towards equity buy-in that hopefully will occur at the end of this year. We’d prefer not to finance the whole thing. It’s going to be a lean year.
Veronica Mars
$300 a month savings — We already have our efund done, but I want us to do more general savings
$400 a month saved for a Europe trip this fall.
Anon
Our emergency fund is really low and we temporarily cut back on retirement contributions to pay some big year-end bills (property taxes, 529 contribution, etc.) so the main goal is getting retirement back up to what it was before and replenishing our emergency fund. We also really need to buy a car this year so hopefully going to set aside some money for that, although it’s hard between mortgage, daycare and retirement.
Anon
I took a paycut towards the end of 2019 and didn’t work for a bit so some credit card bills piled up plus I stopped saving/contributing to retirement funds. My goal is to pay off my credit card bill in the next month or so and then resume savings and ultimately stop spending so much money as a habit (i.e. shopping mindlessly)
Anon
Saving 30-40% of my net — though I did it last year too; it’s a challenge to keep it going year after year.
Got rid of my Netflix because I literally will watch 3 shows/yr — will sign back up in Feb as I have a series of long flights, download some stuff and then get rid of it. So I’m guessing I am saving about 10/mo for 11 months = $110.
Senior Attorney
Cut the cleaning service back from weekly to every other week — $120 per service
Cut the cord and got rid of DirecTV – saving $80/month net of new streaming services
Being more mindful about canceling subscriptions we aren’t using — $35/month so far
Canceling most of our (where “our” = “DH’s”) winery memberships to the tune of at least a couple hundred bucks per month
Anonymous
Saving $500/ month on rent by moving to a cheaper area. (+30min to commute but we can rearrange life around that.)
Saving $750/ month on childcare costs due to same move, lower-cost but still high-quality daycare center.
Some of this was canceled out by the minor friction costs of moving + some new furniture.
Anon
I need to call comcast and vonage and request them to reduce my bills. They do give new customer offer for a year if you call them even though you are not a new customer.
Other than that, I am trying to not buy any thing that is not a absolute need. I enjoy the process, so it is not very difficult for me. I don’t feel deprived. Husband feels bad that I am not buying anything as well as guilt that he is buying unnecessary stuff.
Anonymous
That trick did not work for me with Comcast.
Anon
Yeah I’ve had mixed luck with it. Sometimes I can get a reduction, sometimes not. Our basic cable/internet bill is now $190 (with tax) and I had no luck negotiating it down on my most recent attempt. I hate monopolies :(
S in Chicago
Any tips for saying “no” at work (not to boss, but coworkers and other dept heads pushing their own projects)? My team (in product dev) has a lot of technical expertise, and it’s hard not being treated like the world’s help desk some days.
Rainbow Hair
Here’s a fluffy question — I can’t post on the mom’s s*te because I literally never get out of m0d over there.
American Girl Doll Store Tea Party whatevers… have any of you all gone with a kid? Kiddo is turning 5 soon and my MIL wants to take her for tea at the store. I guess the pamper the kid and my MIL will buy her a doll and there will be tea? I’m not entirely sure what the deal is. I’m also trying to figure out if I should go, if my husband should go, if both of us should go? Honestly, I’m trying not to be a cynic about the whole thing, but I’d love to hear either way, if my cynicism is justified or if it’s actually lovely (like meeting the princesses at Disneyland, which I thought would be inane and is now one of my favorite things to do with Kiddo!)
Anon
It’s cheesy but a 5 year old will love it. I had AG dolls as a kid, have done this with a niece, and can’t wait to do this with my daughter when she’s 4-5ish. That said, if your MIL is happy taking kid alone, I would let them just go together. As I recall, it’s quite expensive for adults and I think it would be nice for them to go one on one.
All my posts immediately go to m0d on the mom’s s1te too! It happened right after I left a critical but polite comment on an A-zon affiliate link dump post. Kind of sketchy…
Vicky Austin
+1. Not a mom, but got treated to go once with my sisters and cousin. I was probably a little old (15!) but it was still fun (little sisters were off their rockers with delight, I had very much wanted to go when I was younger, etc.) We were treated by Grandma, but she and my mom took us to MoA and left us at the AG store while they did their own thing. Probably because I was old enough to semi-supervise, LOL.
Housecounsel
Mom of three girls here. I managed to go only once and am grateful my girls never got into dolls of any kind. I would absolutely NOT go! If MIL is willing to do this touristy and expensive outing, let her and go to a spa or curl up with a good book!
Anonymous
I haven’t gone to the tea, but I took my daughter to the AG store for lunch and the doll salon a handful of times. She would save up her allowance for months beforehand and then spend hours deciding what to buy herself. If your daughter is into AG, you will very much enjoy watching her have a magical experience.
The food is terrible, but you’re not there for the food. When my daughter got old enough to care about the food, we’d have lunch elsewhere and then dessert at AG.
PolyD
I have no children but went to one of these years and years ago with friends who had little girls. I thought it was charming – totally over the top and silly, but very sweet. The mothers did set expectations before the trip – I believe each child was allowed to buy one outfit or other small item, something like that, which did seem to short-circuit the potential whining for buying things.
I say do it – I have a very low tolerance for heart-warming and twee, but it was really lovely to see how excited the kids were.
Anonymous
My kids didn’t really get into it, but my friends have done it and it seems very sweet and charming. A good opportunity to practice table manners :) If you MIL will do the trip, no reason to tag along. Special things with nanas are great memories.
Agree on limit-setting in advance, otherwise, nana may buy a doll, a pet, an accessory for the pet, and an outfit for each, and then matching PJs.
Enjoyed American Girls Tea
I went about 15 years ago when my daughter was 8. American Girl shops (complexes?) were in only a couple of cities at that time so for us it was a fun trip to Chicago (first time for her) from California. My daughter loooved American Girl dolls and their stories. We also saw a show put on by young actresses playing out some of the American Girl stories. The tea was lovely and the whole experience was great. But no reason for the whole family to go if your MIL wants to take your daughter. It will be special for them.
Anon
I took my 4 hours old and her doll with a friend, her kid and doll and it was fun. Cafe food is pretty good (and cute!), the kids loved having the dolls sit at the table. Since both of our kids already had a doll, we let them run around the store and pick out two outfits for each doll, and we got the dolls’ hair done. My daughter’s doll was a yard sale find ($20 NIB!) and my friend’s daughter’s doll was my friend’s doll from her childhood. My kid has one baby doll that she never played with before getting this one, but she loooooooooooves this doll and it is one of our most used toys, second only to the magnatiles. She’s a single child so she plays musical chairs, tea party, and board games with her doll and changes her clothes constantly (we have 5-6 outfits). When she wants to play something with me and I’m too busy making dinner or trying to take a shower, it is weirdly effective to suggest that she go do said activity with her doll.
Anon
Your cynicism comment reminds me of a Conan episode where he went to the AGD store and got a doll and had lunch with her. It was… very funny to say the least. Definitely not my thing but I guess I could play along if MIL insists.
Cat Mom
I was thinking of the same episode!
Seventh Sister
Years ago I did it at the LA store – my daughter loved it at the time, she had a doll already and we left with a few more $$$ doll accessories. It’s like being in a pink, black, and white blender with cruise ship food, but I sort of like that kind of thing (the way I like downmarket boardwalks and small-town carnivals). That said, I did manage to convince my mom that going to the “real” store in NYC for tea was not a trip we should take with my kid. Also, there is wine, which takes the edge off.
Anon
Oh yeah, I forgot about the wine! That definitely helped.
I seem to recall my daughter got to keep the plastic chair that clips to the table for the doll to sit in. She was delighted, and the doll visited several restaurants after that. Or maybe I’m a sucker and paid for it – can’t remember.
Angela
Honestly, if my MIL offered to take my kid (kids, in my case) to do this, I would say go and have fun and enjoy a few hours to myself.
Anon
Go, it’s fun. The one in the Grove, right? If so, sneak off to Nordstrom and enjoy yourself. MIL will be fine with your daughter.
The food is just ok but the little ones really have fun choosing the doll/outfit etc.
Anonymous
I am looking for advice / input. I am a 37 yo junior partner in BigLaw in a MCOL area. I have been at my firm pretty much my whole career, and I am just feeling completely OVER it and the practice of law in general. I’m sick of the unpredictable and often long hours (or even if not long, inconveniently-timed), the constant stress from clients, the travel, the firm politics, the petty disputes, and the list goes on. I really want flexibility, more meaningful time with my kids, and more time for my health and hobbies, but I do not want to completely stop working, nor can we afford for me to do that. I have two small children (one in elementary and one in preschool), and I find it harder to be away from them all day now than I did when they were babies/toddlers and didn’t seem to notice when I wasn’t around.
Here’s the question: I am considering a move to a much lower-paying job (like 1/4 of my current income) with a startup that would allow me to work from home exclusively and would be no more than 40 hours a week, and no travel. I would not be practicing law, but would still be using my legal background. We have saved well and been smart about our expenses (reasonable mortgage, public schools, low car payments, etc.) We would still be able to max out 401ks and save a little extra on top of that, but we would have to budget and be smarter / more intentional about our spending if I were to take this job.
My question is: Am I crazy to be seriously considering making a move like this? I am confident that I do not ever want to return to BigLaw, and I realize that making this move would seal that deal for me, but this job seems like a unicorn that would allow me the flexibility I am seeking while also providing enough income for our family’s needs. Has anyone else made a similar career move or considered doing so? If so, I’d love to hear your experience and what you wish you would have done differently, if anything. I know that no one can make the decision for me and everyone’s experience will be different, but I’m trying to do as much diligence as I can. Thank you!
Anon
Go for it! It sounds like a great fit for what you want (as long as the start-up is at least somewhat legitimate – of course that world always has SOME uncertainty, but do whatever due diligence you can). Life’s too short to be miserable at work.
Anon
I did a similar move — left BigLaw not too long after making partner, when my kids were young, for a nonprofit job making a lot less. I’m overall very happy with the decision! I like my new job a lot more than I liked BigLaw, and I find it more interesting and rewarding. I also love having a more predictable schedule and more non-work time.
There of course are tradeoffs. Some things you might want to think about there: (1) What is your plan if this job isn’t a good fit or the startup doesn’t work out? Would you go in-house? Try to return to practice outside of BigLaw? What doors are you opening and closing? (2) How will making less money affect your day-to-day? Are there services you outsource now that you’d end up doing yourself with your new budget? (Nanny vs. daycare, ordering in vs. cooking, etc.) I found that I ended up replacing a not insignificant amount of my BigLaw work time with childcare and housework-type stuff. (3) You’re in a particularly demanding stage of parenting right now. This stage doesn’t last forever — eventually they don’t need constant supervision, parenting becomes more about emotional needs than constant physical needs, etc. That probably cuts both ways — for some people it’s all the more reason to be home now, and for other people it’s a reason to push through on the more demanding job.
Good luck with your decision!
Anon
That’s a really important thing to think about re: the kids’ ages. In just a couple years they will both be in school full time.
Anonymous
OP. Thank you for your insight – this is helpful, and I’m glad to hear that you are happy with your move. I have thought about all of the things you mentioned, and I agree they are all important things to consider. #1 is the most concerning to me, and I don’t have a great answer. :/ #2 is a very good point, and I certainly will have to stop outsourcing certain things (extra household help, for example), but I think I’ll be okay with that as long as I’m not traveling and commuting. #3 is a major factor in why I want to have a more flexible and consistent work arrangement. I’m hoping to structure my workday around their school day (7:15 bus pickup / 4:00 bus drop off) so that I can be around after school to help with homework, take to activities, etc. I know that won’t be glamorous, but at this stage in my life I want to be there for that.
Anonymous
I would suggest you look at in-house jobs, where you won’t have to take a 75% paycut. YMMV, but what you are proposing would be too draconian for me as a first step, if I were miserable in BigLaw. Many in-house jobs will pay 75-90% of BigLaw salary, with much more work-life balance.
Anon
I don’t think you’re crazy at all, I think it sounds like a great opportunity and thanks to your smart financial decisions you can make it work. And WFH is amazing, it makes logistical stuff so much easier (I only get to do it once/week but doing it all the time would be amazing). I made a similar move pre-kids and have no regrets. My daughter is only 2.5 but I definitely sympathize with the feeling of wanting to spend more, not less, time with them as they get older. It was much easier for me to leave her for business trips when she was a baby. I hope to lean out even more (part time) when she starts elementary school and we no longer have the longer childcare hours that daycare provides.
Go for it
No, imho it’s smart. Life is long, perhaps the big $$$ chapter has run its course and it is time for s new journey for you & yours. At the end of the day we only get (paraphrased in part) one wild and precious life.
Rainbow Hair
This sounds great to me! Life is short!
Some things to make sure you play out in your head:
— working from home 40 hrs/week; how will that overlap with the kids being home from school (presumably the elementary kid is not in school 40 hrs/week)?
— startups can be tricky in their attitude of “you’re doing this because you care about the mission, not because it’s a job!” and can thus be bad at boundaries.
Anonymous
Have you / they thought out what you’d do of value for 40 hours from home in a startup? Startups seem to really need people there, collaborating. The WFH stuff I’d worry would get undervalued or you’d miss out on significant things.
When I hear “startup” and “WFH exclusively 40 hours” I feel like they have not really thought this out. Not the 40 hours. Not the WFH. And the startup-ish-ness is concerning. Would be different if they knew what they were doing. Or had an org chart. It feels a bit optimistic and mushy TBH.
Anonymous
OP here. I think I did a disservice by describing as a start-up, and I should have been more clear. It is a small, but growing company that has a start-up feel but has been in business for several years now and is operating at a profit. I have spoken with one of the employees (hoping to talk to more) who confirmed the flexible schedule, hours, and autonomy that I’m striving for.
anon
Life is short. This is what you want — do it. Also, I have seen countless examples over the course of my career of people breaking “rules” and turning out absolutely fine. (E.g. “Don’t leave a job without another job lined up!” “If you leave biglaw for anything other than the government you can never go back!”) Baloney. I don’t believe any of it anymore.
Housecounsel
I was a partner at a midsized firm who took a pay cut – not as drastic but substantial – to work from home. My kids are older so it’s not an issue when they are around. I have never regretted it for one second. I used to have crippling mom guilt and now it is almost none (I do have to travel occasionally but never for more than a couple of days). I take my kids to school and pick them up. I really don’t think you will regret it. I keep my law license active, doing my CLE etc., but I don’t think I will ever go back to a firm. I am really happy.
anon
Not crazy at all. I would make sure the startup is truly as flexible as it says it is — there are too many out there that expect people to burn the midnight oil in order to make the company a go. (Or have weird culture issues in general.) Assuming that’s not a concern, I’d jump.
Never too many shoes...
For me, that sounds absolutely terrible and I would never consider it. But I love practicing law, love being out of the house and going to the office where I love the people, love the challenge of litigating and love the security that my income provides. I like expensive things/travel and have no desire to have to be careful about spending while still saving for my son’s needs in the future (camps, therapy, schooling etc). Plus, having read the Feminine Mistake, I would worry about being able to get a higher paying job if something happened in my marriage and I had to support my family on my own.
But we all have to run our own race.
Anon
Her question wasn’t “would you do this?” I think it’s obvious that this kind of move isn’t for everyone. She was asking for advice on whether it makes sense for her given what she said about her wants and needs.
Anon
I think you should look at the last 10-12 years as the brutal grunt work that enables you to obtain and take a job like this. You earned a pile of money that put you in a good place financially, and built your career so that you can get flexible, interesting jobs that allow you to be home and see the kids.
Angela
Money isn’t everything. As long as you have enough to be comfortable/secure, it’s completely reasonable to weigh other factors more heavily. There’s a reason being a BigLaw partner pays $$$$ – for most people, it sucks and is soul-crushing.
Anon
If the drop in income is worrying you (it would definitely worry me to go to 1/4 of what you earn) then are there any good go betweens? As a junior partner in big law you have a lot of options. Going to regional midlaw with easier clients (I’ve found mid size mom and pop private companies are a good sweet spot), AGC or GC of a private company – depending on the culture you could drop to half or 2/3 of your current income and not work much more than 40 hrs with little to no travel. Also, working from home is a big change with the lack of interaction, particularly for an unestablished company. Also what is the stability and room for income growth like? You understand that you won’t be able to take care of your kids while you work, right?
All that said, if this is a stepping stone to a “more right for you” position then I’d go for it for a couple of years. If this is a “I’m trying to escape” move, I don’t think it’s a good choice. You should be running towards something ideally.
Anon
I probably wouldn’t do it YET but that’s just how I think of things. I know for me the goal was to make as much $$$ as possible until 40 or 45 — which would be 15 or 20 years out of law school. Because you’re right about this career, once you take the step down, you aren’t stepping back in if you change your mind; frankly you may not even be able 1/2 way between the new and old salary if you needed wanted to. Plus your kids are young, so it’s not like in another 3-8 years they’ll be grown and gone — they’ll be in like elementary/middle instead of elementary/preschool.
And the other jaded part of me has learned that all jobs have their stresses and their negatives, even the ones that look easy from the outside will have annoying, demanding bosses/coworkers or mediocre coworkers or whatever. So if I’m dealing with negatives one way or another, I’d rather make $$$ for it at least for now. And like the poster above, I like nice things, I like not having to think about finances, I like the security etc.
Anonymous
The only thing that gives me pause is “start-up” and “no more than 40 hours a week” in the same sentence. If you really, truly think it’s not going to be more than 40 hours, then go for it, but I would be really, really sure because I feel like that’s not usually how start-ups go.
Midway
I think this sounds like a great opportunity IF you think you’d like working from home and you think you’ll like the subject matter of your new work.
Anonymous
I guess I’ll be the voice of dissent. I would be very suspicious that a start up is really going to let you work 40 flexible hours a week. Ime start ups expect everyone to put in a lot of time and energy. I would also be wary of signing up for this unless you can afford a fairly long period of unemployment. Not to say absolutely no, but the upsides might be a little more tempered than you might expect.
Anon
Plus with it being a start up — think about and look into its funding sources. Is this a start up that already has millions in funding — guaranteeing that it’s going to be around for a while, be able to pay you etc. Or is this the type of start up that’s functioning on a few 100k of family money for this year and they’ll figure out next year next year? TBH I think there’s a LOT of start ups around right now that otherwise wouldn’t exist because the economy is good, venture $ is flowing etc. But once the economy tightens a bit, that capital is going to dry up and I think it’ll shake out a lot of the start ups that aren’t generating a profit/don’t have the potential to generate a profit etc.
JuniorMinion
You aren’t crazy at all. I would do some thinking around if there are things you can outsource to make yourself more present with your children when you are around. I would also worry about giving up flexibility – professional services / deal related roles (I’m in M&A) tend to come with additional hours requirements but sometimes in trade you have additional flexibility in terms of the ability to go attend to things during the workday / go in later etc etc.
The only other thing to think through is it sounds like you have one elementary aged child and one child soon to be in elementary school. Hugely dependent on how academic they are / how involved in activities but school / sports etc. tends to only get more consuming as you age. I only flag this because I had a mother that made certain career decisions around spending more time with me and by age 11/12 between school hours, homework and (non-intensive through school) sports I was basically occupied between 7:30 AM and 6:30 PM. She ended up feeling resentful that she had sacrificed something and I ended up feeling like I needed to provide her with happiness / entertainment.
This all being said I definitely understand the desire after a certain amount of time / experience etc in the workforce to downshift out of defcon 1 mode and if it is what you really want it sounds like you can make that happen.
Anonymous
Thank you for your insight and for sharing your experience with your mom. That is very interesting and not something that I’d thought through completely.
Anon
I agree you should not expect preteen or teen children to entertain you or spend the kind of time with you that preschoolers do. But not all kids are in scheduled activities for 11 hours a day every day. I never was and my kids certainly will not be. Your kids will increasingly have their own lives as they get older, that’s true, but there is value in physical togetherness, even if it’s sitting in the same room while you work and they do homework. I didn’t have a SAHM, but my mom was a professor with lots of flexibility in her hours and I loved being home with her after school (all the time as an elementary schooler and then some of the time as a middle/high schooler). Also, even if you do go the fully-booked-with-activities route, someone needs to transport the kids to/from all those activities. It’s complicated and expensive to outsource that, so being able to do that yourself can be worth something.
Anon
I don’t think you’re crazy at all, but gently, I think there’s a middle ground here that would be more appealing. I don’t know where you live or how much you’re making, but I suspect there’s a lot of things you’re not thinking of when you account for that 75% pay cut. I’ve taken pay cuts before (my industry is different, and the jobs that help you climb the ladder pay less) and there’s always been things I’ve been surprised at. I would also say that kids get more, not less expensive. Have you considered something in-house that would let you take a lesser pay cut and get you closer to your ideal hours?
Anonymous
All fair points. I have considered the middle ground you suggest, but the in-house roles in my city for my area (litigation) are few and far between, and it’s a real hit-or-miss as to whether the hours/intensity are that much better from what I have heard. That said, maybe the answer is to hold on a while longer and try harder to explore those type of roles to see if I can find a good fit. This is hard!
anon
I could use the hive’s advice on a complicated friendship I have that is very difficult. I have a work friend (although we no longer work at the same place, we rarely see each other in a social context and mostly just IM/text while we are at work) and we have always had a challenging friendship. While he is a good friend in many respects, he can be harsh, critical and not supportive at times, which is very different from most of my other friends. I have explained how his behavior is hurtful and he occasionally claims he will be better, but we seem to fall into the same patterns. I’ve also noticed that as a result of his behavior, I tend to be meaner with him than I am with other good friends, which is concerning. When I left my last job, I didn’t tell him about my job search and eventual offer until after I accepted, which made him very mad. He is now job hunting himself and has made me promise “reciprocity” – in other words, keep him up to date on my own job hunt at all times (i’m also looking as well). I agreed although I disliked being threatened to do so. I had a job interview yesterday in a different city where a close friend happened to be having major surgery, so after the interview, I stopped in to see her. I had told my friend that I would be seeing her; yet, he kept texting me asking for interview updates. I told him i was at the hospital and the interview went fine. He wouldn’t stop and then told me he would be “withholding” information about his job search because I was not updating him.
At this point (I was finally leaving the hospital after spending most of the afternoon with her) I told him point blank that my friend was my priority, not updating him on a job interview. He has not responded and I suspect he won’t reach out again (we’ve had periods of no contact before). Should I just let this friendship go? It’s been almost ten years and he’s a good friend in many respects, but I’m just not sure there’s anything worth saving here. Would love any advice, sorry so long.
CountC
In the words of Elsa, “Let it goooooooo.” He does not sound like a good friend, but instead a selfish energy/time suck.
Anon
Yeah, let it go. Once you notice yourself becoming meaner, that’s a sign the toxic friendship has run its course.
Never too many shoes...
This is so true.
Veronica Mars
What a controlling weirdo…
lsw
Agree with the above. Seems like you aren’t getting anything positive out of it right now save the memories of better times.
anon
When a friendship becomes this exhausting, it’s time to let go.
Anon
What are you getting out of this friendship? How is he a good friend? Because you describe him as harsh, critical, and not supportive, and he sounds like an ass. I would let this friendship die, unless you have a very, very good answers to those two questions.
anon
Yeah, I should have been more specific. He has been a good friend in the past, i.e. listening to my problems, trying to offer solutions (both on a personal and professional level). And we generally click, make each other laugh, and understand one another pretty well. But yeah, I find a lot of his behavior upsetting and hurtful at times (he always promises he’s going to be “nice Bob” going forward, which doesn’t really make sense and doesn’t work in any event). On the flip side, I know that friendships are a precious thing, and I guess I feel sad about a fairly long one just ending like this on bad terms. But it seems like that’s the direction that this is heading.
Anon
The fact that he has to promise to be “nice Bob”, which means he knows full well how awful he is, and doesn’t change or follow through says it all for me. You have a friend that is actively horrible to you and doesn’t care. Do you really think someone is a friend if they don’t care that they hurt you? Don’t give in to sunk cost fallacy, especially in a friendship. A friendship isn’t an investment and you won’t lose money or time continuing it.
Anon
Slow fade. Stop talking about the blow by blow of your job and your job search — if you don’t talk about that stuff how much do you really have to talk about? You can “keep in touch” if you really want to the way people do in 2020 — Facebook, insta, like a post once in a while, say happy birthday. But I wouldn’t give someone this toxic the details of my life and job.
anon
all those good times can still be good memories while you move on from this friendship! If you step away now, you take away the chance that his (super-weird) domineering behavior will make you fully miserable and taint those memories forever.
Anonymous
John, I’m not doing this any more. You aren’t entitled to constant updates or information about my life.
Anonymous
I think this situation is a little different than most friendships since OP is competing for the same types of jobs and may find herself in the same circles again. I wouldn’t challenge him on what he’s doing but just do a slow fade. Not as satisfying in the short term but less likely to beg getting sandbagged somehow later on. OP’s goal at this point should be distance done in a way that results in least likelihood of being badmouthed by this insecure jerk now and going forward among other peers/references they have in common or the companies they may find themselves at in the future. If he is so insecure and has such little respect for boundaries, he’s exactly the type to be inappropriately bashing someone to others. OP: You need to get out of this like yesterday. There’s no good way this will impact you professionally. There’s plenty of other funny and sarcastic people that you can banter with who wouldn’t hold the same risk.
Anon
He is not your friend, he is your competition. A Frenemy at best. A fade out is definitely the recipe here. He seems like the type that would call the people you interviewed with and disparage you or try to steal the job if you wronged him. Honestly, his demanding of information is so weird – like abusive romantic partner weird – this is just not a good relationship.
Rainbow Hair
You deserve a friend who at least tries to be kind to you all the time. We all screw up and let people down, but IMO trying to be kind should be a priority in a friendship.
It’s ok if there are seasons of friendship, if a once-bestie is now an excited-to-get-a-drink-with-you-a-few-times-a-year friend.
Rainbow Hair
And it’s OK to love someone and also need to step back; it’s OK to love someone and be done with their sh*t, for now or for good. Caring about him, seeing the good in him, appreciating what he’s done for you… none of that creates an obligation to continue with a dynamic that is hurtful and brings you down.
(I’ve found myself justifying friends to people, like “but she’s really loyal” or “but he helped me so much at ABC time” and honestly, if I feel the need to justify my continued putting up with their sh*t, it’s time to reevaluate. I had a work friendship that was similar, sometimes too close/controlling/critical, because we were both job hunting and had different ideas of what was ‘right’ and how to get there, and we were both afraid that if the other was doing it differently, that might mean we were ‘wrong’ … I stepped back from discussing job hunting in that friendship. Now, a bajillion years later, he’s one of my besties again/still/forever, and our career paths have diverged in a yellow wood.)
Angela
A question I ask my four- and five- year old about their friends that I want them to get in the habit of asking themselves (and that I wish I had asked myself about certain “friends”): “Does that person make you happy or sad?/Does that person make you feel good or bad?” If the answer to all of these isn’t a clear positive, that’s not a friend.
Anon
You may view his as a friend, but he views you as competition and honestly sounds like the type who’d bad mouth you in a second if it allowed him to get what he wanted (though IDK if that’s a concern – sounds like maybe you don’t work in the same markets)? Anyway I had a guy friend like this as a 1st yr associate in biglaw. I legit thought he was a friend, then I realized no one else liked him, he was constantly talking about others, and unsurprisingly when I started getting a good reputation at the firm, he was quick to say in front of partners that I don’t do REAL work, I overstate my work. LOL as if they don’t see the hours and the assignments they gave me? Luckily by then everyone knew he was a joke because we were probably like 3rd year associates at the time. I didn’t even slow fade, I simply never spoke to him again — except having to say hello at a firm event or something and even that was stilted. He understood it and now at age 39 — we’ve both moved on but from what I know of his life, he is super lonely with 0 friends except his wife — as he has ALWAYS treated friends in his life this way whether in his work life or home life.
Anonymous
Thanks so much for all the responses. He actually texted this morning and asked for an update yet again, and also told me he had a message for me from a former co-worker (no idea why that person didn’t contact me him/herself). I told him I didn’t feel like talking to him right now and he just said ok. I think this will be the “slow fade” most of you recommended.
lsw
Any recommendations for apps or website to help you make “pantry meals” – like searching by ingredients you already have? I would love to plug in a bunch of things and have, like, ten recipes pop out. I found something by go o gling but it seemed to broad. (Like, you have quinoa? Here are ten quinoa recipes. Where I was looking for something like – uses quinoa, chickpeas, frozen spinach, and whatever else)
Senior Attorney
Allrecipes has an ingredient search function.
Away Game
Yes. I just entered “quinoa, chickpeas, and spinach” into allrecipes.com and it listed a bunch of recipes. Under “ingredient search” in the top bar you just enter what you are looking for and hit the plus button on the side to add more ingredients. You can also exclude thing; for example: include quinoa, spinach and quinoa, but exclude olives.
Anonymous
I go on Epicurious for this.
Anon
SuperCook is a fun website/app for this!
lsw
Thanks!
Anonymous
Is this a date? I met a guy about a year ago from seeing him around in the community. We connected on FB. Over the holidays, he wished me a Merry Christmas and HNY. I saw him at an event, he invited me to dinner, and he paid after I offered to split it. We talked on the phone and have texted. He said we should meet up again. I have no idea if he means as friends or dating. I would be open to dating, but don’t really have time to invest to make a new friend. Maybe that sounds horrible, but I’ve been unsuccessfully using the apps and trying to devote time to finding a partner. I realize I sound like a teenager.
Cat
this sounds like dating to me… I don’t think a guy would buy dinner for someone he was planning to friend zone?
Anonymous
OP here- thanks. I’m 35, divorced 2 years ago, and actively trying to date. I feel like dating has vastly changed since I was single. Dating apps weren’t a thing. Maybe on our next dinner, I’ll say “is this a date?” and just put it out there.
Anon
I think it’s a date but either way I’d go out with him again. He’ll probably make a physical move and then you’ll know for sure. I realize you don’t have time for an ongoing new friendship, but one more date won’t kill you even if it doesn’t lead to anything.
Senior Attorney
+1
anon
Probably, but – you could make the first move, or, when he says “meet me at Restaurant at 7 pm”, you can cheerfully respond, “It’s a date!”
Anon
That wouldn’t work though, you could easily say that in the context of a non-romantic date.
Anonymous
Yes, I’d say “its a date” to a friend.
Anon
I feel like “it’s a date” is just a thing that people say. I wouldn’t too much into that phrase personally.
Anon
*read too much