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Updated: Apr 25, 2022 480 Comments · by

Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Belted Crepe Knit Jacket

The Personal Shopper (TPS)

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A woman wearing a short-sleeved, black belted jacket and a cream-colored skirt, with hoop earrings

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

The rarely-seen short-sleeved blazer! This curved-hem crepe jacket from Scanlan Theodore has a beautiful shape that would be perfectly paired with pencil skirts or slim-fitting pants. I love the idea of pairing this jacket with white or pastel bottoms for a feminine, professional-looking spring outfit.

The jacket is $550 at Saks Fifth Avenue and comes in sizes S–L in black, ice pink, navy, and white.

While the styles are different, if you're looking for a black belted jacket that's more affordable, check out this one from Club Monaco (XXS–XL, $179.50) or this one from 11 Honoré (plus sizes, various lucky sizes at Nordstrom and 11 Honoré, $248).

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Sales of note for 9.30.24

Sales of note for 9.30.24

And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!

Some of our latest threadjacks include:

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Amberwitch

    I don’t understand what makes you call this a blazer. As far as I can tell, it lacks most of the defining characteristics of a blazer, such as;
    1) a lapel
    2) sleeves
    3) buttons
    4) made of woven fabric

    It looks a lot more like a top with a belt than anything remotely jacket like much less a blazer

    /end of rant 785 “words have meanings”

    • Anon

      The designer calls it a jacket, and Elizabeth tends to refer to things the way the makers do. Anyway, it has a zipper, which makes it more jacket-like than top-like.

    • Cat

      ? it’s a short-sleeved blazer so the absence of sleeves is kind of the point… lapels and buttons aren’t defining elements as seen by the popular JCrew Going Out Blazer, and the fabric seems like a weird thing to pick on given how structured the piece is. I think this is gorgeous and a stand-in for wearing other jackets or blazers, though would want a layer underneath to prolong life between cleanings.

      • Amberwitch

        And again, words have meanings. Two wrongs does not make a right, so arguing that this is a blazer because the J Crew blazer also fails at the basic blazer defining characteristics is not really an argument as such.
        I’ll leave you with the Wikipedia definition of both a blazer and a suit jacket, which are pretty clear on essentials of what constitute a blazer and a suit jacket.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blazer

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit_jacket

        • Anonymous

          I think youre wrong about the meaning of this word but I love how angry you are this morning!

          • Anon

            I know, right? Who knew someone could have this much energy over whether or not something is a blazer?

      • Monday

        I admire the resolution of spirit. If there’s anywhere to split hairs about the definition of garments, this really seems like the best place for it! It’s definitely a serious and growing issue in women’s retail, for those who care!

        • anon

          For instance, the very very loose way that “midi” is used for skirts and dresses. Originally, it meant to mid-calf. Now it’s from just above the knee to . . . downwards.

          • Monday

            I could go on and on! I’m not mad but respect those who are. Especially when doing online searches, it would be nice if words could retain stable definitions.

            “Flannel” does not mean “plaid” or “gingham”
            “Vegan Leather” or “PU Leather” are plastic
            “Cap sleeves” do not come down to mid-bicep or lower
            “Kitten heels” are not 3 inches high

        • Anon

          Yea it’s just a bit intense for a Monday morning! I understand the frustration when you search for something and the result is not accurate but like….chill a little.

    • Anonymous

      Are you the person who asked all the questions about the beautiful lavender blazer featured last week?

    • Anonymous

      Ahaha. Yup, it’s a top with a zipper in the front instead of back or side, but it’s a pretty top, I think.

  2. Anonymous

    Menopause question. I’m 39. Is it a sign of pre-menopause when your periods start coming earlier and earlier? My cycle used to be 28-31 days, then 22-25 days, and this weekend it ended up being only 17 days. I’ve mentioned it to my GP before but they were pretty non-committal but offered to check my iron (which was low). Is this perimenopause? What kind of provider do you see to ask questions about this kind of thing? I’ve never had kids so my GP has always done my pap smears, etc. and I don’t have a GYN, but I’m sure I could establish care with one if that’s the right kind of person to see for this.

    • Anon

      I’m 37 and the same thing is happening me and my gyn told me it was peri-menopause. She said it can be up to 15 years between the start of peri menopause and when your periods actually stop.

    • Anon

      Dr. Mary Clare Haver on Instagram and TikTok has great perimenopause explainers.

    • Anon

      Yep, it sure is. I’m weighing my options for getting rid of the damn thing – how close together do they need to be before it’s worth surgery? I’m sure that varies by individual and I’m not sure if I’m there yet. 44, no kids, at 20 days, down from 28 in my 30’s

        • Anon

          Even the low dose ones mess with my moods to the point that I’m not willing to try another. I’m glad they work well for you and provided a solution.

          • Anon

            My sister had an ablation, which is less invasive and stopped her periods. Something about leave the stuff there b/c it helps support the bladder? Worth talking to a good GYN about.

    • Cb

      I’m having the opposite, went from 31 days to 55 days…and wondering the same.

    • Anon

      I mean, sure, it could be, all kinds of things change around your period as you age. But what exactly do you expect a doctor to treat here?

    • Anon

      This has been happening to me too at 43. I’m done having kids so I’m thinking about asking my GYN for an IUD to see if that will stop my periods entirely like it has for so many women I know.

      • Anon

        I have an IUD and it completely stopped the b1eeding – but not the PMS irritability, bloating, and other symptoms. My cycle is typically on the 18-20 day range.

      • Anon

        I’ve had IUDs for 16 years now and just love it. No periods ever. My gyn highly recommended I keep my IUD until I am at least 55 and possibly even past that, as it apparently helps a lot with perimenopause symptoms.

      • Anon

        I’m 44 and perimenopause has started for me. I’ve been interested in pursuing an IUD to help manage symptoms, but I had horrible symptoms back when I was on hormonal BC. Are the hormones I hated from BC the same hormones that I’d get from an IUD?

    • edj3

      My periods ended up just never stopping. It was always easier for me to say how many days I didn’t bleed than say when my cycle had started.

      I ended up getting my uterus removed at 43, and for me it was the best decision. My anemia improved, still not to normal levels but so much better, and I hadn’t realized how much breakthrough bleeding had affected me until I didn’t have to worry about it any more.

    • Of Counsel

      It can be; it can not be. I had irregular periods as a teen; was ion hormonal BC for years, was very regular for a few years, was pregnant and then cycled between regular and irregular for a few years at a time throughout my 30s and 40s. And my experience of menopause was very different from my mother in terms of the length and frequency of our periods.

      Maybe is really the best your doctor can give you here without hormone testing. It is easy in retrospect to recognize the symptoms of peri menopause but I caution against thinking everything that could be a symptom actually is.

    • Anon

      It was for me. My periods got closer together and shorter. This phase lasted close to a decade.

  3. Anonymous

    What’s the best way to learn to code? Does it matter which language? Context: I’m 37. I can use a computer but am no genius. Recruiters have started calling me for upper level roles (I work in a tech-adjacent job in the Midwest). It seems that I must be able to say I can code – even though the jobs themselves don’t require it, I understand it’s a sign of legitimacy for the more technical people on hiring teams. Thinking about trying to learn but not sure where to start.

    • Anon

      No, you don’t need to learn to code for upper level roles. You are not being hired for your technical skill set. You need to be conversant with tech but you don’t need to make it.

      • BeenThatGuy

        This. I’m in one of these upper level IT roles and it’s not unnecessary. I direct projects and strategic initiatives. Being able to write a Python script is below this pay grade.

      • anon8

        Agree. I work in software development and got a degree in computer science, but I don’t like coding. My role is a system analyst so I work with the developers who write the code. A tech adjacent role is different from a software developer who actually writes the code.

      • AnonATL

        Agreed. You could probably do an intro class on udemy so that you know what people are generally talking about. I write in SQL semi regularly for work and I still have to Google half of it especially if I haven’t worked in it for a while.

    • Anon

      If you just want to dip your toe in the waters so that you have more familiarity with what coding even is, what I did was a weekend RailsBridge workshop. There may be other similar workshops for other languages. I wouldn’t say that I can code after having done the workshop, but at least I’d coded something and had enough of an introduction to evaluate next steps if I’d wanted to continue.

    • Anon

      Why would you need to learn how to code if your job doesn’t require it? Are you in the tech industry?

    • Anon

      Python is a good one for beginners. Do an online course such as khan academy; there are many options right now.

  4. Anon

    Went trying on new bras this weekend and it looks like I’ve gotten some rolls above the bra line on the back side of my armpits. Perhaps this has been there for a while? I went up a band size and it didn’t seem to make it go away (instead, the bra was too loose and just floated around). Is this a thing? Other than wearing blazers, are there any tricks so that my dresses don’t look so lumpy in the back?

    • Anonymous

      There are some bras that are designed to help with this like the Spanx Bra-llejah. I think Soma also offers something like this.

    • Anonymous

      Check that your cupsize is big enough. Some of that fat might be breast fat squished the wrong way under your pits. (It’s a thing, migratory breast fat – and lots of people wear wrong shape cups as well as too small). More likely that you need tighter band and bigger cups than looser band.

      A good amount of back fat is healthy.

      • Anon

        Migratory like moved permanently b/c you were in the wrong bra? Or just pushed there while the bra is on? This is sort of horrifying — I barely have enough front cleavage and now I might provoke armpit cleavage to crop up.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah, some people «train» their bust fat forwards again, by stroking it into the cups. Bent forward ninety deegrees, which also is the best way to put on a bra, cupwise.

      • PolyD

        I noticed the same thing some years ago. I moved up from a 32D to a 32DD and that helped somewhat.

        But as we get older, we get squishier. Such is life.

      • PolyD

        This happened to me some years ago. I moved up from a 32D to a 32DD and that helped somewhat.

        As we get older, we get squishier – such is life!

        • Anon

          Interesting — I went up a band size trying to deal with this and down a cup size and was left with my old friend, quad boob. So maybe I need to go up a cup and try that (and I’m in your neighborhood, size-wise — what brands / styles work for you)?

          • PolyD

            Donna Karan has historically been the best for me. Soma isn’t bad, but I find the DK ones more comfortable. I mostly found them on the Nordstrom Rack web page.

            Of course, I haven’t worn underwire bras since early 2020. I found a bra from True on Amazon, I think I got a size medium. It definitely tends toward the mono-boob more than a proper underwire, but oh well.

      • Anon

        This was me. I was never measured properly, so my tissue just kinda went wherever it could. 34D to a 30G, now everything sits where it belongs.

        • Anonymous

          How does sizing up in the cups work, though? I would like wider cups, but they’re already too deep and gap terribly.

          • Anonymous

            Then you need a different brand. Look for shallow and wide cups, and maybe even try a demi cup shape.

            Curvy Kate might work for you, maybe Panache. Avoid Freya.

    • MagicUnicorn

      My usual bra but with a band extender solved this issue for me. That, or try one band size up but one cup size down (that whole annoying “sister sizes” thing) if you are buying new bras anyhow.

    • Anonymous

      I just picked up a Natori Bliss Perfection and it works better for this than any other bra I’ve tried. The Wacoal ultimate side smoother – which is supposed to be made for this purpose – was a big disappointment. I’ll be following with interest for other recommendations here!

    • Anonymous

      Bali has a line with smoothing sides; basically, a wider band that doesn’t have the same grippy elasticity.

    • No Face

      Soma has a bra line that makes a smoother back. Forgot what it was called though.

    • Anon

      I just got a new bra fitting at Soma (highly recommend, they always have the most easy going sales people in my experience). The smoothing back bras do help. But my latest person actually helped clarify that it can be apart of breaking in a new bra. She even pointed out in pictures in the fitting room how the models also have the same upper bra roll going on that they kind of strategically hide in their photos. Hope that helps!

  5. Step down

    I’m a high-level manager in a public agency that was deeply impacted by the pandemic. Last week my supervisor and I mutually agreed that I would step down for a variety of reasons. I have been wanting to leave my job for quite some time but stayed because of my team and commitment to the work/mission. I feel both a sense a relief and heartbreak. Any words of winsome, advice or commiseration?

    • ArenKay

      Just thank you for doing important work at a terrible time. I hope you get a chance to rest, and that your next job gives you what you need.

    • AIMS

      I had a somewhat similar situation and good for you is all I can really say. It took me months to start to feel “normal”after that experience and I’m still not 100 percent there maybe. Be proud of what you and be glad you’re moving on.

    • Anonymous

      I work in transition management – basically, helping people get new jobs/helping encourage transitions/layoffs when necessary (lots of them in early 2020). You are going to have some hard days. If you plan to keep working, see what kind of introductions/transition planning your agency will help you with – if you think it’ll be helpful. Your team and agency can and will figure things out without you. Do what you can to summarize where things are, but hand off anything now or ASAP that will be transitioned out. Call benefits while you still work there, so you know what happens after you leave public service (unless you have a solid offer from another agency). If you can, take time off between jobs or roles. You need time to recover. Volunteer or take a class if you must be “busy” but you are likely deeply burned out in different areas of life and it can take a few weeks just to start feeling ‘normal’ again. I sincerely wish you all the best.

    • Anonymous

      Commiseration. I was “reorganized”from a company just weeks after a stellar review and holding us together through the transition to a virtual tradeshow when going back live and didn’t hit revenue expectations. It was heart-breaking after putting in so many nights and weekends without a break. My company for security purposes cut me off from laptop and phone without notice, so it felt like insult to injury even though I know it shouldn’t. My advice if you are over 40, is know your market value. I had a high income (part of why I’m sure it was valuable to restructure without me), and I believe I narrowed my options too much right away by aiming to high. From a practical perspective, invest in a professional resume review service–things have changed a lot in just the past handful of years regarding structuring for keywords and ideal visual format. The rest is just wisdom to realize you are not your job. Shortly after I was let go I found out I had cancer (literally from an ordinary physical I was slipping in before the end of the month to avoid COBRA). It hit home very quickly who were true friends and who were merely former coworkers. It’s tempting having gone through intense work/mission together to feel bonded. But the reality is that a of that is situational comfort in one another. While that may sound sad, it also means you will be able to find similar peers you like at the next gig. (For what it’s worth, I love my new team even more and I never thought that would be possible.)

  6. Anon

    Any advice for someone who has failed the bar twice? This is for my younger brother’s roommate. He is a good guy and still lives in his law school’s city. I don’t know him terribly well as a student, just as someone we bring along to family dinners when we visit. I know that he is a first generation student in both college and law school. My sense is that he might do better reaching out to his law school for some come-to-Jesus help now to help him reset (unless law schools are busy with their current students) and gear up for the July exam (and maybe hook him up with a tutor, help him look at his shortcomings and where to focus his time). My hope is that his job isn’t eager to kick him out and lets him retake in July but IDK if that is realistic (maybe the one upside of a tight labor market). My brother talks to my dad, who talks to me (who types to you) and wants me to talk to my brother / roommate but I don’t know what I’d say that would possibly be helpful. [Privately, I think that law schools often are good at taking your $ and leaving you stranded when you need them most; that’s not helpful for the roommate as a path forward though.]

    • Cat

      I think tutoring may be his best hope but tbh the stats are not good for repeat takers. Can you encourage him to also look into JD-preferred roles like compliance?

    • No Face

      Law schools are not helpful for passing the bar.

      He needs to study however he learns best, and then take practice exams constantly. For example, I do not learn from listening, so I spent my time memorizing by repeating out loud while pacing.

      In the meantime, JD adjacent roles like contract administrator could pay the bills.

    • SC

      It’s hard to know specifically what would be helpful without knowing the issue. A bar prep course, if he hasn’t taken one, would help with reviewing content and how to tailor answers to the graders. A tutor could help with that plus timing and nerves.

      Many (most?) law schools do not prepare students well for either the bar exam or practicing law. The bar exam isn’t a particularly good measure of competence as a lawyer. So, if he can get through this hoop and hang on to his job, he may well be able to put this behind him and have a fine career.

    • Anonymous

      Do you know what went wrong? It’s a little hard to give advice in the abstract; I know a bunch of people who failed for lots of different reasons, and ultimately passed, but I’m not sure how relevant their individual circumstances are. If you don’t know or don’t want to pry then I agree that you should refer him back to his law school.

    • Jolene

      OP, this is not a criticism of YOU so please don’t take it that way but: why are you being asked to do this emotional labor? This request is coming from your dad, who is getting it from your brother, who is talking to the roommate, which is incredibly attenuated. Can you just tell your dad, “I don’t really have any experience with this, I’m not sure I have any advice that would be helpful,” and leave it at that?

      • Anon

        Here is a guess: this is distressing to the brother (roommate has had something bad happen not just once or twice; it is likely causing great anguish to the friend and this may be constant; also, brother may worry that bother may lose his apartment also b/c roommate has to move out); distressed son causes dad distress; etc., etc. Small kid; small problem. Big kid; big problem. I know that the roommate isn’t family, but my parents were pretty close to my college roommates to the point where if something bad happened to them, they would be concerned (maybe especially for the ones where they knew the parents wouldn’t or couldn’t step in to help).

        Also, people don’t like feeling helpless, so relaying it on down the line may feel like they are doing something.

    • Anononon

      Assuming he is generally a good student and did all the normal bar prep things (Barbri or other bar prep course, serious studying, practice tests), he should be tested for learning disabilities. The only people I know who have failed the bar multiple times but otherwise did all the things you are supposed to do had learning disabilities that they had always been able to manage until they hit a test that was two days of back-to-back six hour blocks. They passed after they were diagnosed and got more time/other accommodations on the tests. Others I know of who failed either never did the studying/prep or didn’t have the horsepower to pass it in any circumstances and are now in other jobs.

    • Anonymous

      Take a bar exam in an easier state? And – Study like WHOA. In my State (not CA or NY), your multiple choice score can get you 90% of the way to passing, and essays are about guaranteed to put you over the mark. Failing tells me he isn’t doing well at multiple choice. If that isn’t true, and he can’t get over the mark, see if he can get feedback from State about his essays. I’d strongly recommend he sign on to a bar prep course that guarantees he pass as long as he hits XYZ benchmarks. This probably means he needs to cut back at work if they’ll let him. Three times failure = unlikely to be licensed, so this time is really important. (not impossible, but really unlikely if you look at the stats). If he’s trying to take CA or another hard state – honestly, I’d consider having him see if he can take another State and at least get licensed. He can tackle CA later if needed.

    • Anon

      This depends so much on why he failed. If he didn’t do well on the LSATs but some school took him (read: his tuition money) anyway, his solution is to go into compliance. If he’s close to passing but never quite can get over the hump, he needs to focus his studying more. Not focus more, not study more, study in a far more focused way. Take a Kaplan class, if they still offer those, for the multiple choice section. Find people’s notes for bar prep classes and really drill down into commonly tested subjects. Get some feedback on essays: you score better if you use precise language or perform a good analysis even if you forget the black-letter law.

    • Anon

      It may depend on the state, but the best advice I received for passing the Illinois bar was that it is possible to get a high enough score on the MBE (multiple choice section) that you can fail every other section and still pass the bar. It was pretty easy to calculate what score I needed to do that, using g**gle. Then, I put 100% of my study effort to the MBE, which is the most learnable section. I passed on the first try this way.

      • Anon

        +1 I passed the Indiana bar this way when I was working full time and had almost no time to study. I was familiar with the MBE subjects from taking a different state bar several years prior, and it’s a smaller number of subjects anyway. I didn’t even attempt to learn the Indiana-specific subjects and I think I wrote almost nothing for at least half the essays.

        • Anon

          But it’s definitely state dependent. This strategy would not work in California where (at least when I took it) you couldn’t be guaranteed a passing score even with 100% on the MBE.

  7. Anon

    we’ve been in the hospital for 3 days, yesterday they told us my mom’s cancer came back in one spot but because of her age (86) they don’t want to remove or treat. I’m devastated. my sweet mother and I are very close.

    i feel like if there’s a localised spot (one upper arm) it should be addressable.

    I’ve been through several family cancers but I am so upset I’m not thinking of all the right questions to check and challenge. like why no treatment? why not start with non surgical options and see how she responds? are there other options for treatment?

    I’m not willing to sit back and wait on this taking over and ending her life.

    thank you in advance.

    • Anonymous

      This post is a lot about you and fundamentally this isn’t about you at all. It is her life and her body. Have you asked what she is thinking and listened? The doctors are not trying to kill your mom because she’s old. They are being realistic that the treatment is likely to kill her and unlikely to succeed. Is your mom pushing for aggressive treatment?

      • Anon

        Removing a localized cancer in the upper arm is realistically likely to kill an 86 year old? Maybe. I would want a second opinion if this is what my doctor told me. Lots of people get surgery in their upper 80s, but maybe there are additional factors.

        If it’s something more like a slow growing cancer that’s unlikely to become life threatening over the next 15 years, the risk/reward analysis may favor doing nothing about it. Doctors do sometimes undertreat patients because they are old though, so I would want the explanation.

        • Emma

          This is anecdote not medical opinion but my DH’s grandmother had a cancerous skin lesion in one spot on her leg. She was also 86 and overweight. The doctors told us the same thing- the odds of her not surviving the surgery were high and a skin graft was unlikely to work. DH’s aunt raged against the medical profession but several doctors said the same and ultimately DH’s grandmother told her to cut it out and let it be. She lived comfortably for another year or so and then was taken into the ICU for sepsis (may or may not have been related) and passed away rather peacefully after having had a chance to say goodbye. OP, I’m sorry you are going through this. Definitely get a second opinion but also talk to your mom about how she wants to proceed.

          • waffles

            another anecdote – my father-in-law had cancer and he pushed to do chemo, even as a relatively unhealthy 80+ year-old. Even the lightest chemo treatments were so hard on him. They triggered heart attacks on at least a couple occasions (and then an ambulance ride to ER from the cancer centre, and a prolonged stay at the hospital) before everyone finally agreed that the treatments were worse than the cancer. Cancer treatments can be very hard on even a healthy young person, and brutal for an older person.

        • Anon

          If they do it under general anesthesia, there is a risk from that. There is also the prep — fasting the day before and possibly holding off on any comfort meds. And then comes the recovery. One surgery for a relative resulted in a vocal cord granuloma as the breathing tube was remove (they intubate you if they put you under b/c of risk of regurgitation b/c some people lie about fasting) that was very painful and made it difficult to talk for a year and she had to go to vocal cord therapy. And this was a youngish person (40s). Sometimes things go very sideways, more so as you age and become weaker and more frail with more comorbidities and daily meds to manage.

          • Anon

            It seems wildly unethical to intubate people because some other people lie about fasting. Can’t they check if the patient is successfully fasted? I don’t lie about fasting and wouldn’t appreciate sustaining an injury from a procedure that would have been unnecessary for me. (I would have to fast for days because I have very low gastric emptying, but I guess if I fasted as instructed and showed up with regurgitation anyway, they’d assume I had lied?) Trust goes both ways, and I would really not want to be put under in the care of people who think this way.

          • Anon

            There are severe complications if you aspirate anything or maybe you fasted but it wasn’t quite long enough since metabolisms and clearing time vary. Far from unethical, it is considered to be the standard of care.

          • Anon

            If the reasoning is that there’s no way to check and it’s too dangerous to take any risks, I understand.

            If the reasoning is that “some patients lie” — or if the assumption is that patients with poor clearing time are just liars — that seems more problematic.

          • Anon

            I will also say that some patients show up at the ER and you have no idea when they last ate. Airway protection is such a key thing that you protect it with something that is known to protect it. Otherwise, people would often die, if not on the table, from pneumonia that could set in after they aspirated vomit. It is a huge deal.

          • Anonymous

            This may be the case for some short procedures. For most involved procedures requiring anesthesia, the intubation is required for airway patency, not just in case you ate and are at risk of aspiration.

          • NeglectedHeels

            This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why people get intubated for surgery. Many surgeries, especially those on the abdomen or a limb, necessitate paralyzing the patient with medication (see the Vanderbilt nurse trial where a medication that does this was used incorrectly and they patient wasn’t intubated, couldn’t breathe, and died) . If your whole body is paralyzed, you cannot breathe on your own and need a machine to do it for you. Intubation isn’t performed on people because their doctors think they are lying about eating. Aspiration is HUGE risk and is actually still a risk for a surgery during which a person is intubated, they can vomit during “induction” or the moments between when they receive the sedative and paralytic, but before the breathing tube is placed. Don’t eat before a surgery or procedure if your doctor tells you not to.

          • KJ

            This is…not how anesthesia works. It’s ok to not understand something, but best practice is not to comment on it with authority if you’re going to spread misinformation.

      • Duchess

        My family has experience with the worst case scenario of this almost exactly. My grandmother had cancer in a muscle in her upper arm (tricep I think? I was young, so I can’t remember all the details), and after radiation and chemo, they decided to remove one of the heads of the tricep. It was unsuccessful, so they were going to go back in and amputate her arm. She ended up having a stroke on the operating table and died.

    • Vicky Austin

      Is there anyone you and your mom trust enough to bring to the hospital, speak with the doctors, understand the options and present them fairly, so that you can focus on spending time with your mom? It sounds like you’re shouldering this alone and need a hand. I’m sorry for your sad news.

      • Anonymous

        Also if you’re in the hospital request a visit from the social worker, chaplain, and palliative care. Use those resources.

        • Allie

          This. The hospital social worker was absolutely fantastic when my dad had cancer and I was struggling to understand some decisions he was making. These resources are there – use them!

    • Anonymous

      I am so sorry to hear this. Perhaps it has more to do with the toll of the treatment, the time the cancer will take to spread, and your mother’s overall health and ability to withstand treatment. What does your mom say about all this?

    • Anon

      I understand you are hurting and the loss of your mom is a very difficult thing to contemplate. Big hugs; it’s obvious that you love your mom very much.

      But, there are actually times when treating someone for a disease can be worse than letting that disease run its course, which may not necessarily mean the disease will be their ultimate cause of death. My husband’s grandfather was diagnosed with lung cancer at 92. It was not widespread, he just had a couple of spots in one lung. But because of what treating it would mean for my grandfather-in-law – they would have had to do a pretty big surgery, then do chemo and radiation – the oncologist talked to my husband very honestly about the idea that the treatment alone might kill his grandfather and it likely wasn’t worth it. They had a consulting geriatrician come in on the case to give an opinion, and she agreed. My GIL was adamant he did not want to go through treatment. So that was it; he didn’t get treatment for the cancer. He went onto hospice and died about two months later, likely not from the cancer but from other complications of his old age.

      Your mom is 86 and if she already has other health conditions or her health is generally fragile, the doctors are probably making the best decision they feel they can to give her the best quality of life that she can obtain at this juncture. Which is very, very different than prolonging her life for as long as they can. Before insisting on treatment, please think through the possible scenarios all the way out to the end. What if they do radiation on her arm and she loses part of her arm function, or she gets a radiation burn that doesn’t heal? What if something happens and she has to get her arm amputated, and figure out how to live without her arm at age 86? What if she does chemo and it makes her significantly ill, to the point she can’t eat, toilet herself, be ambulatory, etc. for a long time, and that is what ends up killing her? The hospital may have a care counselor that can talk you through these options, so ask your mom’s doctors to speak to one.

      And, ultimately, this has to be about what your mom wants. Not what you want. Losing the people we love is the hardest thing any of us go through, but with our parents – it is inevitable. Unless we die first, we will have to live through losing them. I understand you love your mom, and you don’t want to let her go. But when someone is in their late 80s, really, they could go at any time and I know I would want my time remaining with my parents to be the best it could possibly be, with them as independent and mobile and healthy as possible. I have seen what happens when people continue on with futile medical treatments past the point that those treatments are capable of healing them. It’s a really sad and difficult scenario. Again, the hospital may have a care counselor or chaplain or hospice worker who can help you through this difficult time; I hope you’ll reach out for help. Hugs.

      • Anon

        I agree that this has to be about what OP’s mom wants. I would absolutely want my life prolonged even if I lost part of my arm function, or got a radiation burn that didn’t heal, or had my arm amputated, or had a new need for caretaking. I can’t even imagine turning down treatment just because of those possibilities.

        At the same time, I wouldn’t want to suffer a lot from cancer treatment if leaving the cancer alone was unlikely to change my lifespan or cause me suffering; I’m completely okay with dying with untreated cancer if it’s something else that kills me anyway. I thought that this was even somewhat common when people die very old (that after a certain age, we often die with cancer acc. to autopsies?).

        • Anon

          ” I would absolutely want my life prolonged even if I lost part of my arm function, or got a radiation burn that didn’t heal, or had my arm amputated, or had a new need for caretaking. I can’t even imagine turning down treatment just because of those possibilities.”

          What you would choose for yourself now and what someone who is 86 years old would choose for themselves are likely two entirely different things. Right now, in my mid-40s, I would be totally willing to get a prosthetic arm, or deal with extended wound care, etc. There’s a level of disability I would be totally fine living with, to be able to spend more time with my family. But at 86 – nah. The likelihood that I will end up completely dependent on others for basic care, maybe not ambulatory, maybe not able to feed or toilet myself, maybe not able to live outside of full nursing care are too high. I would choose not to get treatment. Once I hit age 75, quality of life is going to be way more important to me than the quantity of my life. But I understand different people have different ideas and values around what they want their end-of-life to look like.

        • Anon

          I know that the cancer QOL can be rough. My dad had much trouble urinating and had to get a catheter. Chemo made it so driving home in rush hour traffic was a no-go due to vomiting and bathroom needs. That can be really mentally rough for a person and toileting needs are hard to manage (and can make your skin very damaged / lead to sores). Alive where you can enjoy meals with your family vs alive when your body is in open rebellion against you and you are in pain / having to deal with bed/bathroom cleanup / car cleanup / hotel cleanup are just hard and hard on caregivers who may struggle to manage all that.

        • Anon

          ” I would absolutely want my life prolonged even if I lost part of my arm function, or got a radiation burn that didn’t heal, or had my arm amputated, or had a new need for caretaking.”

          Just a wild guess, but I’m assuming you’re not 86? I know very 86 year olds who want to prolong their lives, let alone go through something painful and/or disabling to do so. Of course a 40 year old or even a 60 year old has a different outlook, because they will have good years head if they can get through this.

    • Anonymous

      What does she want? She’s 86. Her runway is not long under any circumstances. How does she want to spend it?

      • Anon

        Chemo has been rough on my friends who are half her age. I had some major surgery that knocked me down for weeks. What does your mom want? If she is still mentally strong, her wishes are the important ones. I’d get a second option just out of habit.

      • BeenThatGuy

        This is what I’d be asking. My father passed away last month at 90 years old after a 2 week illness. It was very obvious after the first week of illness that he was ready to go. It was hard to accept but respecting his decisions was what I could do to honor the life he lived. Ask your mom what she wants.

        • Anon

          I’m so sorry for the loss of your dad. Your comment is spot-on. Sometimes the best we can do for people is to honor their choices and help them down the path they have chosen for themselves.

      • No Face

        Exactly this. My grandma underwent cancer treatment in her 80s. She was sick, sad and miserable all the time, and then she passed away. If I got a cancer diagnosis at that age, I would chose to spend that time saying good bye and handling my affairs without treatment. Another person in the same spot would battle it out.

        • InHouse Anon

          Sadly, agree. OP, this is devastating news and I’m so sorry you’re facing it. My grandfather was treated for cancer in his late 80s and many of the worst case scenarios mentioned above happened to him. Most significantly, he never fully recovered from the effects of general anesthesia and it severely affected his cognition. His death was not peaceful. While it had been his choice to undergo treatment, in hindsight I know his kids would have pushed him to reconsider. I was young when this was happening, and I remember thinking “it’s just a little surgery, what’s the big deal”. I learned that anything involving general anesthesia at that age is a Big Deal. Again, so sorry OP.

    • Anonymous

      Some cancers are very slow moving and if it’s a metastasis, going in and removing it is unlikely to help since it’s circulating throughout the body. Is this metastasized breast cancer per chance? Chemo would be so tough on someone at 86, no matter their previous health. As was suggested, maybe start with palliative care?

      • Anon

        I was also wondering if it was metastatic breast cancer that is in one of her arm lymph nodes. If that’s the case, I hope someone is explaining to the OP that stage 4 metastatic breast cancer is incurable and that the systematic cancer treatment required to keep it in check is really, really rough on people. A friend of a friend went through treatment for metastatic breast cancer at 32 and the treatment itself nearly killed her. She got a few more years (which was important as she had young children) but died at 36. For an 86-year-old I am sure the oncologists are very much weighing the impacts of the treatment against the likelihood the treatment will result in any kind of net-positive outcome.

    • Anon

      I am so sorry. I was in your situation a few years ago. It is very very hard to decide to stop treating an elderly person. It was hard for the doctors to convince me it was time to stop treating my mom. Then I had to be the one to convince my siblings. The uncertainty at the time was one of the hardest parts of the process.

      In hindsight, I am convinced it was absolutely the right thing to do. I trusted my mom’s medical team and am now very very glad she was able to drift away in a cloud of comfort care rather than more painful treatments that may have given her, at most, a few more months of a low quality life, or may have killed her. If the treatment had not worked, she would have died hooked up to machines and in pain. I knew that was not what she would have wanted for herself.

      Hugs to you. It’s incredibly tough.

    • Anonymous

      I’m very sorry about your mom. Gently, and I know this is hard, for pretty much all kinds of cancer, the fact that your mom’s cancer came back (a recurrence) in a new location (stage IV) is not a good prognosis factor. In addition, if your mom has been hospitalized for 3 days, that means something is already wrong with her health. I’ve been there – I lost a parent to cancer in my late 20s and had cancer myself in my early 30s.

      The first questions you should be asking are to your mom. What does she want? What kind of quality of life does she want to have in her remaining years? Are there certain things that are really important to her to preserve and others she’s ok with losing? Are there circumstances in which she would not think life was worth living? When she thinks about the future, what does she worry about? Essentially, you should google “goals of care” conversation and ask those questions to your mom.

      Then, you talk to the doctors and have a goals of care conversation with them. Questions that you can ask:
      – My mom’s most important goals are [insert your mom’s goals]. What do you recommend, factoring that in?
      – How will her illness progress if we do nothing?
      – What types of palliative care are available if the disease progresses? What can be managed with palliative care? Can it be done at home?
      – If my mom was 30 years younger and healthy, what would you recommend? What would the success rate of that treatment be? What are the success rates of that treatment for patients my mom’s age? What would the side effects be? How would my mom tolerate treatment given her current medical condition?
      – If we don’t want to pursue the most aggressive treatment, is there an in between option? What would that look like? How long would that prolong her life versus doing nothing? What would the side effects be? What would the success rate be?

      And finally, after that conversation with her doctors, you can get a second opinion and ask those questions again to weight them against each other.

        • Anonymous

          From a process perspective, ask the doctors if you can record the conversations or take a note taker with you. It’s so hard to absorb everything in these situations, and your Mom may need to hear her options/advice replayed.

          Anecdotally, my grandmother had breast cancer at 92 and had a mastectomy with no other treatment. She lived two more years and died of a stroke. Was otherwise healthy until her last day.

  8. Anon

    This may be an age thing but I feel like even though I am mostly the same weight and shape as I was pre-pandemic (so weekly gym visits where I tried to do a mix of weight machines), but I swear all of my lower body has just gotten really lumpy and ripple-y. I guess I thought I’d be in a shape and it would be larger or smaller but smooth? It’s just a vanity thing, as I am grateful to be in a healthy body, but is there a way to be less lumpy? Go back to the weight machines? More massages (yes, please!)? Do nothing as nothing can really fix this? [Maybe I am too used to people using filters and this happens to everyone?]

    • Anon

      It depends what age you are currently, but in general, wrinkly skin throughout the body is part of aging.

      • Anon

        Is there a lot of airbrushing of regular and plus sized models? My eye seems to be trained to expect a sort of robust fullness to the shape of any body, but I am starting to realize that only statues have contours that perfect.

          • Anon

            It’s not obvious to me. Like I know that makeup models have pores and that that is airbrushed and I know the Kardashians photoshop to the point where its obviously fake. Maybe it’s not being around actual people except for Zoom heads?

          • Anonymous

            Anon at 10:51: Me. I have not been living under a rock since late 2019 or even early 2020.

        • Anon

          Yes of course! Go watch some Lorry Hill videos to start to understand the scope of what you’re seeing online and in media. She’s not an expert but she’s had several procedures herself and speculates on what celebrities have had done. Add even half of the proposed procedures on top of heavy airbrushing and photoshopping and no wonder we all have such a skewed sense of what bodies look like.

          And not that I recommend coming of age in the toxic 90s/00s culture, but grocery store magazines used to gleefully shout when they caught Jlo or Scarlett Johanssen with cellulite or a slight pooch at the beach – celebs have bumps and wrinkles too but you don’t usually see them. At the time of course, I internalized it as if they were gross with a fold in their belly when they bent over, I must be a manatee. But looking back, they were literally just existing in a body. Super toxic.

          • Anon

            This is a much better barometer of what real-people bodies look like than anything on social media or in mass media, TBH. Real bodies look completely different in real sunlight than anything you’ll see in a picture.

          • Anne-on

            This. I have always had a lot of cellulite even when I was younger/thinner (it’s genetic, my son has/had cellulite since he was a toddler) and I always hate bathing suit season until I get to the beach. Even my most fit mom friends have saggy belly skin, cellulite, etc. We’re human, not perfect, and I’m not *paid* (like the stars are) to try to be perfect.

    • Anonymous

      Better bathroom lighting and self massage with a fantastic feeling and/or smelly body lotion? I’m with you friend- this will at least make you feel better. I don’t think there’s much more we can do.

    • Anonymous

      Same. I’ve always been dimply (I had cellulite in my high school swim team pics), even though I was always relatively thin. Lotion with a sheen helps, as does self-tanner.

    • NeglectedHeels

      Is is cellulite? Generally I notice my cellulite decreases as my muscle mass increases and I do more weight lifting. Perhaps a more sedentary lifestyle during the pandemic combined with aging has led to loss of muscle mass. Women have to fight hard to maintain their muscle mass as they get older!

      • Bloedel Babe

        Yes, this. I am over 40 and have had some cellulite all my life since high school or perhaps earlier. The few times I was able to lose the cellulite, it was because I was training *very* hard and eating super clean. I am 5’4 and weight around 120 pounds. I lose the cellulite around 114 pounds. But the lifestyle restrictions that I’d have to enforce to be that way all the time are just not worth it to me, at least not year-round.

        Even at 120 pounds now, I am more wrinkly in my bottom half despite having a good overall shape. Bummer, but what can you do.

      • Anon

        This. One time a week using the machines is obviously better than never doing that, but isn’t going to have much impact visibly.

  9. SSJD

    Seeking recommendations of a DC-area dry cleaner to trust with cleaning and pressing heirloom Hermes scarves. These belonged to a family member who passed them along. They are dirty and perhaps somewhat stained. They also lack the desirable creases, so I want a dry cleaner familiar with the Hermes folds (some people don’t like them, but I love the creases). Importantly, it must be someone who will know not to iron over the hand-rolled hems.

    I have hand-washed Hermes scarves myself in the past, but given the condition of these they might need more heavy duty care. I am open to suggestions of dry cleaners or tips based on your experience with similar items.

    • Anon

      I’m assuming Hermes has one or more boutiques in the DC area – I’d call one of them and ask for recommendations.

      • Anne-on

        I don’t think so? I have a dozen plus Hermes scarves and I’ve never seen my SA (or others) wear them with the folds in. I generally steam them after wearing to get them to relax and I’ve sometimes ironed them into shapes when I’m doing a particularly geometric/menswear style fold. Not to mention the overdyed styles are very soft, wouldn’t hold a fold easily, and are super sought after.

      • SSJD

        OP here. I’m not sure if the folds are a thing for anyone else, but I tend to like how they look and feel, and I like the ability to reconfigure the scarf and store it in its original shape. This prevents me from getting lots of little creases which make the scarf feel “messy”.

        My prime resource on Hermes scarves is the MaiTai’s Picture Book b1og. The 2017 post about hand washing includes information on ironing the creases back into the scarf, so I guess there is a contingency that likes the folds there.

    • Anonymous

      Look for a dry cleaner that specializes in high fashion items. Then send them something else, like a less expensive scarf, as a test to see how they do.

    • Anonymous

      I’ve no idea what Hermes folds are, and google isn’t being particularly helpful?

      • Anne-on

        They come in a square box, and have folds from being in that shape. Fwiw I have always steamed/ironed my scarves prior to wear as I most commonly wear them with a scarf ring and the folds would prevent the ‘tails’ from laying nicely down the front. This post is inspiring me to make it a point to wear my scarves the next time I go into the office!

    • IL

      You want Parkway dry cleaning in North Bethesda, Maryland (previously on Connecticut Avenue in Chevy Chase). They do tons of White House/Congressional dry cleaning and handle couture gowns and finicky steaming projects with ease.

  10. the best dog

    We helped our beloved 13 year old dog to pass peacefully last week. My husband and I are both devastated.

    Who else has lost their furry friends, and was there anything you did that helped, or that you found particularly meaningful as time passed?

    • Anon

      I started a notebook of memories – just jotting down all the stories I could think of about our beloved boy over the course of his life. Probably kept adding to it over the course of a month. It was cathartic at the time, and now, years later, it is so nice to pick up and flip through every few months.

    • Anonymous

      My mom scattered her favorite pup’s ashes in the spot she will be scattered. It brings her comfort to know they’ll find each other again in some way.

      • Cornellian

        I didn’t want to cry at work this morning, Anonymous!

        OP, I’m sorry, that’s rough. For me, it was helpful to give away his “stuff” that could help other dogs (food to a shelter, bed to a shelter, meds to a breed rescue). I’ve still got his leash in my closet four years on. I adopted another dog last year but can’t bring myself to use his old leash, ha. Maybe soon.

    • AnonQ

      Aw, I’m so sorry. I framed some pics and made a couple of items (mugs, computer mousepad, calendar) and distributed them to my immediate family (this was my childhood dog). Everyone was thrilled and several years and many moves later, I still drink out of a mug with my beloved pup’s pic on it.

    • Emma

      I’m sorry for your loss. My beloved pony passed away a few months ago (at 29, I was 12 when he came into my life) and my husband had a painting of us done from a picture I loved. It’s in my office and I tear up every time I see it but it’s such a meaningful way to remember him.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      I’m so sorry. We went through this two years ago and I still think of him every single day. The book “Good Dog. Stay.” by Anna Quindlen is a lovely read, as is the piece “The Last Will and Testament of an Extremely Distinguished Dog” by Eugene O’Neill. When we were ready, we scattered his ashes near his favorite sunny spot in our garden and planted a lilac bush there and read the O’Neill piece.

    • Anon

      Look up cremation art. My kids took the loss of our dog incredibly hard (we had him before they were born, so they literally only knew life with him in it) and we had some of his ashes made into glass paperweights for each kid. They needed that physical reminder of his life, and if they want to keep it as they grow, no one needs to know it has ashes.

    • Anon

      I am sorry for your loss and also grieving. One week ago today, I said my last goodbye to my 14 year old rescue. It’s so painful.

    • cat socks

      I’m so sorry. Take your time and don’t feel like you have to get back to normal on any specific timetable. I’ve had to say goodbye to few kitties. I just let myself be sad for a few days afterward. The hardest part was getting used to a new routine without them there. It just took time.

    • Anon

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I’m not sure if this will help but I’ll post the link for this Modern Love piece about this guy having to put his dog down. It makes me cry every time I read it since although it it very sad, it is very sweet about how he comes to terms with the loss.

    • Anon

      I am so sorry for your loss. My puppy (he will always be a puppy to me) is 16 years old and the vet has said we likely won’t make it through the summer. It is so hard to come home once they are gone. No advice. Just commiseration.

    • Anon

      I’m so sorry. The only thing that really helps for me is time. I lost my beloved dog nearly a year ago. I also found it helped to remember her and talk about her.

  11. Nina

    Cons – I had a severe and not well explained bout of vertigo last week, need to get a CT scan later this week

    Pro – I lost the last pound I’ve been struggling to lose. I don’t want to think of weight-loss-due-to-illness as a pro but also I’ll take the silver lining?

    • go for it

      Has your doctor done the Epley maneuver for your vertigo? my neighbor has it done when she gets it 3+ times a year and gets resolution.

      • Nina

        Yep the Epley maneuver helped a lot! I was surprised that what is really such a simple action made such a big difference.

        • go for it

          I forgot to add: if it is a vey extreme bout she has had to get the Epley a few times over the course of a week.

    • Anon

      As someone who has dealt with mild vertigo and has a family member who’s had more severe issues, my understanding is that most cases of vertigo are not well explained. Two of the most common causes are BPPV (the kind helped by the Epley maneuver) and vestibular migraine, both of which are underdiagnosed and undertreated. I don’t have full on vestibular migraine, but do have chronic migraine that seems to result in occasional vertigo, which has been greatly improved by topamax. My family member never got a clear diagnosis, but had some luck with vestibular rehab.

  12. Anonymous

    On the hunt for a new work bag. My Tumi is looking a bit slouchy and now that I’m starting to travel again, it’s time for a replacement. Le pliage and OG type materials seem too casual, but I hesitate on leather because it can be so heavy. Is there such a thing as a polished-looking, structured bag that is big enough for a laptop and also lightweight?

    • Anon

      Still very happy with my Lo & Sons Seville. I have an OG that I lost due to a . . . vomiting bus passenger . . . and while that was a great bag, the Seville stands upright better but the OG held more (to my poor shoulder’s detriment). The Seville has been great for 4ish years now.

    • Anon

      I have a Lo & Sons Seville tote in the 15″ size that I got off Thredup for, like, 10% of what they cost new and I really like it. The shell is perforated Saffiano leather and even loaded, the bag isn’t too heavy (I do have a small/lightweight laptop though). If you buy a Seville new from Lo & Sons, it comes with a leather shell and a nylon shell with a trolley sleeve that’s really lightweight (I bought mine off of eBay).

    • Anonymous Canadian

      This is late but I have discovered Knomo London bags and love my Grosvenor Square 14 inch tote. They make a larger expandable one. Super light and beautifully constructed. Excellent customer service.

  14. Monday Morning Shopping Distraction?

    Spring Wedding Attire Assistance, Please! Would love thoughts and suggestions on rehearsal dinner and wedding attire for late spring – location is the south of France and the invite says French Provincial Chic for both the dinner and the main event. I think both have indoor and outdoor components. Usually drawn to classic/structured – my work uniform is a sheath or A-line and a blazer, but I like to take it up a notch (or 3 or 4) for non-work events! And once I have some pretty frocks (and shoes!), what am I advising my husband to wear?

    • Anonymous

      Your husband is wearing khakis and a blazer to the rehearsal dinner and a suit to the wedding.

      • NYCer

        +1. Your husband is easy. He could probably get away with just a blazer (no tie) at the wedding too if he prefers, but a suit is always fine. If he goes the suit route, I would recommend navy or gray (not black).

        For you, I would wear some sort of long, flowy-ish dress in a floral or otherwise colorful pattern (along the lines of Veronica Beard). Bring a jacket or wrap, it can get chilly at night there in the spring.

      • Monday Morning Shopping Distraction?

        Thank you for the literal LOL re: dress code and for the great rec!

      • Senior Attorney

        Oh, man. I am a shortie with short arms and legs so those dresses would legit be wearing me, but… SO PRETTY!!

    • Emma

      A few French wedding etiquette rules – black is generally a no-go for weddings. Hats and head coverings are not mandatory and not that common except for mother of the bride type situations. Nice wedges or flats are usually acceptable if there is an outdoor component. The French don’t require floor-length gowns, a knee-length dress is usually fine. For a summer wedding I would do something colorful, late spring in the South of France could already be really warm, but might cool down in the evening so bring a pashmina or similar wrap (also consider packing mosquito repellent). Men typically wear suits – tuxes are not common in France, and only super formal/conservative people wear tails (usually only the bridal party). A black or navy blue suit is a fail-proof classic, although I the summer men sometimes wear lighter, linen-type suits in beige or light blue. Black or cognac leather shoes. Generally you would wear a tie or bow tie unless it’s a more casual vibe. If this is an American couple doing their wedding in France, whatever you would wear as c**ktail attire to a US wedding is fine. If you want inspiration, Un Beau Jour is a French wedding blog with a lot of pictures.

    • Anon

      I’m sorry, I just can’t with these too-precious wedding dress codes. It’s no longer cute or unique, it’s just annoying. “French Provincial Chic”? I’d show up in a full-on Marie Antoinette “let them eat cake” costume just to make a point.

      • pugsnbourbon

        I mean that is an option. I feel like you could go real floofy-poofy if you want. Maybe skip the beauty mark and lead powder?

      • Anon

        As I said last week to the woman wondering what to wear to a wedding with the dress code of “cocktail attire,” wear a cocktail dress and be happy that they went with an actual wedding dress code, not something invented for the occasion.

    • Ribena

      You want a dress from Sezane or the Paris bit of & Other Stories. Tatty Macleod (comedian, grew up in France) did a thing on her Instagram about what to wear to a French wedding. Not too ‘done up’!

    • Anon

      That screams Sue Sartor or a nap dress (for those decrying them, they made some new very cute cocktail styles)

          • Anon

            Idk I’m sick of the nap dress discussions and still can’t believe anyone is wearing them but the one pugsnbourbon linked above does look wedding appropriate. Is that a nap dress or are we conflating two oft-mentioned topics here – Sue Sartor and nap dresses? I thought nap dresses were from Hill House?

            As a consumer of neither, I admit to being a bit confused.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      LOL. I love imagining that they’re using “provincial” in the sense of “unsophisticated”. Kind of hilarious that it’s paired with “chic”. Burlap cocktail dress? Nap dress in silk dupioni?

      Imma guess that this is a couple of Americans getting married.

  15. KW

    It’s been 10 years since I job searched and I have 2 resume questions… I went to law school in state A where I live and work. But I took the bar exam in neighboring state B and waived into state A the following year. I let my state B license go inactive. Do I list both of them on my resume and say that state B’a license is currently inactive? Also, how far back should I list my employment experience? I took 4 years off between undergrad and law school. Do I need to list pre-law school jobs? I graduated law school in 2010 and have only had 2 jobs since then.

    • AnonQ

      Are you applying to jobs in state B? If not, leave that license off. If so, activate your license and include it.

      Generally, keep 10-15 years of work on your resume and only relevant jobs. If your pre law jobs aren’t relevant to the jobs you’re seeking now, it’s fine to leave them off.

    • No Face

      I think of a resume as a marketing document, so my answers are based on the job that you’re seeking.

      Is an inactive B license helpful for the job? At law firm that does a lot of work in states A and B may appreciate that you just need to reactivate. I would not include the license on a resume for a in house or federal job that just needs a valid license anywhere.

      Same for the pre-law school jobs. Are they relevant to the job you’re applying for? For example, if you are applying to an in house job for a construction company and you were a construction project manager before law school, that’s helpful. Otherwise, focus on your accomplishments in your lawyer roles.

    • Anonymous

      Don’t list pre-law school jobs unless they are relevant to the job you’re trying to get.

      Whether to list an inactive bar depends on how inactive it is. Can you become active by paying a fee? Then list it. Do you have to take the bar all over again? Don’t list.

    • SC

      I would only list the bar admission in State A.

      Whether to include the pre-law school experience depends on whether there’s any link between that experience and your current practice or your network (i.e., those jobs were in State C where you are applying, or in a particular industry related to your practice, or required using a specific skill or foreign language). If you include them, I’d do so very briefly.

      • SC

        I’ll add that if you’re applying for jobs where a license in State B is helpful or required, and it’s easy to reactivate that license by paying a fee, then do so and list the license as active on your resume.

    • Jolene

      I don’t think bar licenses are that meaningful, but you might as well be comprehensive. I’d list “Bar Admissions: Alabama, Alaska (inactive).”

  16. AnonQ

    Just read a doozy of an advice column in Real Simple and would love this group’s take.

    Story: Husband is best man in a wedding. Wife is asked to help out by arriving early to set up and decorate, including transforming the ceremony venue to a dinner space while everyone else has cocktail hour. And also stay late and tear down and clean up after the reception. Wedding couple is doing this to cut costs and has asked several people to help. Letter writer wants to offer to pay for a couple of helpers instead.

    Advice: Columnist says offering to pay for helpers would provide no benefit because the couple isn’t planning to pay for this service anyway. Advises wife to bring comfy shoes and “suck it up.” The wedding is not about her and this could be fun.

    Me: whaaaaa? First of all, offering to pay for helpers is above and beyond and would clearly benefit the couple. They are asking for volunteers to avoid paying for helpers. This way they still get help and it is still free. But mostly I am shocked that the couple would make such a big ask! Is this the norm nowadays? The columnist just accepting this request as something the wedding guest (GUEST!!) should just agree to is blowing my mind a little bit.

    • Cat

      that columnist seems kind of like they are missing the point. The point about paid helpers not being a good substitute is only relevant if the distinction is needing a personal connection / knowledge to do this, not whether or not the couple was willing to pay in the first place!

    • kitten

      I think it’s incredibly tacky and entitled. If the wedding couple can’t afford their wedding without asking for free labor from guests, then they can’t afford the wedding and need to take it down a notch. In this instance I would just make up an excuse (fake injury, travel plans, chid care, etc.) and then probably stop socializing with those people.

    • Anonymous

      I think this might be more normal in certain circles. No one is asking guests to set up big fancy catering halls afaik but if we’re talking about a lower budget affair in a vfw hall or something I think it might be more normal for them to have women close to the family set tables and put out flowers. Im a New Yorker so my immediate reaction was also horror but I do think there are different customs wrt weddings elsewhere.

      • Anonymous

        Yep, my first thought was that this was probably some sort of fundamentalist wedding with a reception in the church basement, like my parents had. Even if this is the situation, it’s not OK for the couple to ask someone who is not personally close to them or who is not part of that culture to help out. In this situation it would also be very tone-deaf for the letter writer to offer to hire help. She’d come across as the out-of-touch rich city lady who wanted to buy everyone off. The best solution is for her simply to be unavailable to help out for some semi-plausible reason.

        • anonshmanon

          Idk if I would say they are wrong to even ask. If it’s normal in their culture, and the best man of the wedding could presumably be part of that culture, then is it so wrong to think that best man’s wife might also be familiar with the culture, at least enough to not feel offended by the request? A request must obviously not be a demand, it needs to be ok to say no. But that is the age-old conflict of guess vs. ask culture (which I just learned about).

    • pugsnbourbon

      Wholly dependent on the type of wedding and relationship. I’ve helped at numerous family weddings (somehow I am always stringing lights) and would do the same for a good friend. But if it’s someone I don’t know well, or someone who’s closer to my wife? Yeah then I’m paying for help, for cleanup at least.

      • AIMS

        I think it’s relevant that this is the best man’s guest. I think it makes it slightly less weird because it’s like asking your wedding party to help with certain things. I can see a couple in that situation feeling hurt or offended by the offer to pay — I wouldn’t personally make an ask like this of any guests at any event, but I also understand how someone who may be unable to pay for X can think this is a reasonable accommodation/way to save costs and it could be perceived as unwelcome to basically say, “um, no but I will pay for someone to do that.”
        I appreciate that it’s not the same but one of my oldest friends is a make up artist and if I asked her for help getting ready for some very important event and she said, “oh let me just pay for someone to do your make up,” I would probably feel pretty crummy about it.

        • Anonymous

          To me the request comes across as pretty se*ist. It’s not asking a member of the wedding party to help, it’s asking the wife of a member of the wedding party who doesn’t really know the bride or groom. That implies that the wife is just an extension of her husband.

          • AIMS

            I wouldn’t assume that the wife of the best man doesn’t really know the bride and groom. I think it’s more likely that the wife does know the marrying couple and is in the “close family/friends” camp such that it’s not the weirdest request in the world to make (not that i would make it). But the letter writer doesn’t say “I am invited to a wedding and all the guests are asked to do X” – she is asked to do X because her husband is in the wedding, while the rest of the guests are at c*cktail hour.

        • pugsnbourbon

          Yeah, the tone in which the answer is given matters a lot. For clean up I imagine I’d say “oh, I’d be happy to do that but I’m sure my feet will be sore from dancing! [Insert lie about neighbor’s kids I’ll rope into service].” and then pay for a professional and say the kid fell through, oh well!

    • Anon

      I had to LOL at this as a person who once got pressed into service as a volunteer event worker at a friend’s wedding – and in my case, my friend didn’t even ask us first. Husband and I showed up the day before the wedding and were informed our labor was needed to set up tables and the dance floor, haul cartons of wine and liquor across a field from the cars to the reception area, etc. We didn’t feel we could say no and ended up working for about eight hours, in 95+-degree heat, to get everything set up. At one point I asked my friend’s fiancee, “there’s no one here at the event space that could do some of this stuff?” and she said “oh, they offered help but we’d have to pay an extra $500 for it, we figured it would be better to just ask our friends! We can get everything set up and have fun doing it together!” At that point I had to restrain my side-eye because I was definitely not having fun. I wanted to go find the venue workers and give them the $500 so we could stop working, but of course, they weren’t on-site.

      At the wedding the next day, we were exhausted and sore and I was frankly pretty cranky that my friend had saved money on the wedding by using his friends as unpaid labor, without asking us first if we were willing to do that. I absolutely would have hired assistants had I been told in advance what we’d be asked to do. My husband and I agreed, at the end of the wedding, that if my friend’s marriage breaks up and he wants to get married again, we’re going to decline to attend and just send a card. All that to say: I think the columnist’s answer is dead wrong and I would strongly encourage those LWs to either pay for the help or show up to the wedding too late to be used as free labor.

    • Anonymous

      I would just say no. And have done. Offering to pay makes it a negotiation.

    • Anon

      I agree with you and would also say that in general Real Simple’s advice columnist routinely has completely ridiculous responses like this. They pretty much always are in favor of the letter writer acting like a doormat for the ease of someone else.

    • Former Southerner

      This is one of those things that is super culturally dependent. I live in Southern California and would never have dreamt of making this kind of request from my friends and family.

      The rest of my family lives in a small town in the South and it is super common there. My sister and her friends were all in each other’s bridal parties had a whole system down by the time the last of them got married for decorating before and cleaning up after. The is partly because weddings there are typically for younger brides, there are fewer “entertainment” venues so they are transforming what is available, and weddings are generally more of a community/family/religious event so the idea that you cannot “afford” a wedding would be viewed as odd.

      I was the maid of honor at my sister’s wedding and missed the first part of the reception because I was cleaning up the church.

    • Anon

      Piggybacking off of this, did anyone hear about the couple that got married for $500? They had the ceremony on the side of the road somewhere and then the reception was at some restaurant where they didn’t have reservations and all the guests had to pay for themselves. I’m shocked at cash bars at weddings! I’d much rather a buffet style with only wine and beer. I guess to each their own! And yea I understand the classist undertones.

      • Anonymous

        Rich people weddings also cost guests a ton, even if dinner and drinks are provided. Now guests are expected to travel for bachelor3tt3 party + shower + wedding, skip multiple days of work for a long “wedding weekend” involving numerous events, travel to the ends of the earth and stay in pricey hotels, etc.

      • anon

        As someone who got married for $700 a couple months back without any guests – how is this surprising? We had so many people ask why we weren’t holding a wedding, and it’s because we didn’t want to spend thousands on feeding people! I had hoped that people would feel less put out that I wasn’t requiring them to get dressed up and drive here for a simple reception, but alas they weren’t happy either way. A buffet with “only wine and beer” is still more than $50/head and was out of reach for us.

        Don’t begrudge people who are funding their own parties for choosing not to go into debt to get you drunk.

        • Anon

          There’s a difference between getting married with no guests to avoid debt and asking your guests to pay their own way. The former is absolutely fine, the latter is rude.

      • Anonymous

        I’ve done this. I attended a wedding at city hall during the workday and then we all went out to lunch. Everyone paid their own way and I paid for a toast for the bride and groom. We all went to work after, including the bride and groom.

        If you’re well off enough that low budget stuff like this causes you to clutch your pearls, then you are well off enough to obtain some manners and be gracious to others.

      • Anonymous

        I am all for a $500 wedding, including a $47 dress. I am decidedly more in favor of a $500 wedding than I am a $5000 wedding or a $50,000 wedding or, most especially, a $100,000+ wedding (it’s completely immoral; I don’t care who you are or think you are or will be or who your parents are). I am not for a $500 wedding that makes guests (or worse, unknown restaurant staff) uncomfortable. Elope. Go to the courthouse and have a lunch at home for your parents/siblings and any other people who insist they must be a part of a thing that is fundamentally not about them who are willing to bring something for the group to eat or drink.

        • Anon

          +100

          I never begrudge anyone for sticking to a budget, but I think it’s rude to ask your guests to pay their own way. And ride to show up without a reservation. Either go out to lunch as a couple or have people over for a very casual/cheap meal

        • NYC

          Immoral seems harsh here. If you price out different options in NYC, you’ll see they typically are above 50k for 100 ppl and without crazy over-the-top features. While it’s a lot of spend for one night of festivities, the money is used to support staff, event halls, caterers etc.

          • Anonymous

            Yeah, and all that catering food and staff could be feeding the elderly and infirm, refugees, and homeless instead. You could feed a lot more than 100 people if you tweaked the menu and a ton more if you donated the costs of flowers, candles, dresses, tuxes, shoes, gifts, money bags made of fine lace, other trinkets, etc. I truly wonder what good would result if we just eliminated weddings and collected all the associated money, except for letting guests keep the travel funds for a real vacation to a place they actually want to go with the people they want to spend time with or to pay loans or invest or donate or whatever. Every Friday there could be a big mass courthouse wedding in every town and religious services could close with all the couples who want to get married that day standing and giving their vows.

    • Anonymous

      This is suspiciously similar to a recent AITA, to the point that I suspect the author just added some details to the Reddit post. In that post, the couple hadn’t even asked the wife, they asked the husband if his wife would help and he volunteered her. In that case, I think weaponized incompetence is appropriate, the (married) couple obviously has horrible communication skills so I would capitalize on it. “Oh gosh I didn’t realize, you never talked to me about it, oh well too late now off I go!”

      Also, I highly doubt non-professionals can flip a room in an hour. This is a recipe for disaster and I wouldn’t want to touch it.

    • Anon

      I don’t mind young people pressing their friends into service when they are paying for their own wedding. (Some people in my circle got married at 22, paid for it all themselves, and managed it by having friends and family chip in with photography, cake baking, etc.)

      I do mind people offloading costs onto their wedding guests when they are just too cheap to pay. This can take the form of “saving money” by having your wedding on a Thursday (costs to guests: more missed work for travel), destination weddings (same), or requesting freebies from family and friends. I paid $200 to someone to set up the morning of my wedding; she carted things from the hotel the reception venue and decorated. Worth every cent to not have to ask any guests to do it.

    • Anon 2.0

      My guess is this is a church wedding with a reception in the fellowship hall type of thing. In the south, I have seen this time and time again. Couple is 18-22 years old, has no money, the moms generally run the show with wedding planning and friends/family/church members pitch in. Reception is cake, punch, light snacks, and butter mints in the church afterwards. Wedding at 2, reception at 3, everyone is gone by 5.

      It was until I was an adult and moved to a larger midwestern city that I even attended a wedding with booze!

      • Anonymous

        Except the task is transforming the space into a “dinner space” during “cocktail hour.”

        • Anonymous

          This is what makes me think it’s just a cheap entitled couple trying to exploit their friends, rather than a fellowship hall reception.

      • Seventh Sister

        I didn’t go to any weddings where they served food (or booze) until I was in college. There *was* alcohol at some of those weddings, but it was more spike-the-punch or groomsmen’s flasks.

    • Seventh Sister

      Having the women set up and help out at the wedding wasn’t terribly uncommon in my parent’s era (they are WASP-y Midwesterners who got married in the late 60s). But back then, people in their social class had cake and punch receptions in the church hall! And it wasn’t a few helpers, it was like a dozen women and girls doing that stuff at the minimum.

      Asking a guest to set up, transform the venue, *and* tear down after several hours of cocktails/dinner/dancing is way too much. If I was in this situation, I’d probably agree to help set up and would NOT offer to pay for helpers. People get super weird and offended about hiring people.

    • AnonQ

      Thanks for all the thoughts! I have definitely helped set up/tear down weddings (and these were generally of the ceremony in church, reception in fellowship hall next door types) but only as a family member or bridesmaid. And not while the festivities were ongoing. I think that’s what got me with this one – asking this guest to skip cocktail hour to do the work. There’s no info in the original letter about this being a cultural norm, so who knows.

  17. Anonymous

    Has anyone been to a concert at the PNC Bank Arts center? Wonder what the experience is like. Is parking ok?

    • BeenThatGuy

      Parking is fine. There’s lots of it and parking attendants to guide you. The traffic getting there is the worst part. Especially if it’s a Friday between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

  18. Anne-on

    Suggestions for best mail order flowers? I’ve had terrible luck with the bouqs. I normally do Grace Rose Farms but my mom asked NOT to get roses this year as her rosebushes are gearing up for a bumper season. Btw – they send GORGEOUS garden roses, highly recommend them if that’s your jam.
    My mom take apart/rearranges anything I’ve ever had sent from a local florist so I’ve given up on sending her arrangements/anything in a vase.

    • Anon

      I don’t have recs, but just got a bouquet from urbanstems and it was a huge disappointment. The flowers were very wilted.

      • Anon

        I also had a bad experience with Urban Stems. Received a plant that was mostly dead.

      • NYCer

        Ha, I just saw someone above said the opposite. So I guess it is luck of the draw!

      • Curious

        I got an extraordinary bouquet from my boss and one of my best work friends at the beginning of cancer treatment. It lasted for two weeks. It was from Urbanstems. So definitely varied experiences!

    • Anon

      Just Yelp the local options and pick the best one. They’re going to be in so much nicer shape for having less distance to travel in “acceptance condition” versus mass shipping.

      • Senior Attorney

        Yup agree with this. Also more of your money is going to the florist and the actual arrangement.

    • Anon

      If your mom loves growing roses maybe send her a potted flowering plant rather than a bouquet?

      • Anon

        +1
        I used to call a nursery local to my mom to send her potted rose bushes. They were happy to deliver and so delighted to get the order.

  19. Anon

    So I’m behind on this but anyone else bummed out about Ali Wong and Justin Hakuta’s divorce? I know they’re famous but I just thought they had an awesome marriage with him being super supportive of her career and being “man” enough to handle all the jokes about how she outearns him. I know in her last special she talks about wanting to cheat but that just seems too obvious of the answer for their split.

    • Jolene

      Mmmm. From an avid believer in “He’s just not that into you,” reading their relationship origin story in her book set off major alarm bells for me. I’m not surprised at all at this news.

    • Agreed

      I know we’re not supposed to give into celebrity and/or parasocial relationships – but I’m also very bummed out to hear about them.

    • Anon

      Her last special made me cringe and didn’t sound reflective of a healthy relationship so I wasn’t especially surprised.

      • AIMS

        Yeah, I couldn’t even watch it and I think I have a fairly high tolerance for bad language/adult subject matter (or at least do not seem to be offended by the things that are routinely mentioned as “offensive” around these parts). Offensive is not the right word, but it just didn’t seem funny but seemed more desperate to capture some kind of relevance? I liked her movie but can’t say that I am invested in her beyond that. But even the talk of cheating aside, who wants to be married to someone whose opening is to talk about how much she wants you to — on her face so that she can just stop — already. I mean hot stuff and all but I would be pretty uninspired by that myself (cheating I would totally understand!).

      • Anon

        Same.

        My husband and I loved the first two specials – hysterical. So much so that we spent $400 on tickets to see her latest special (which then got cancelled due to Covid – and then once it was rescheduled, we didn’t buy new tickets because we have a baby and are still being very cautious). After watching it on Netflix, we were sooooooooo happy that it was a wasted hour, not a wasted hour AND a wasted $400. The only thing I found funny was the old asian ladies turning into owls.

    • Nina

      I thought the wanting to cheat was just obviously a joke, or a bit for a show. It’s definitely disappointing that all the jokes about him being able to deal with it don’t seem to have panned out. It was nice to see a couple where the husband seemed alright with the wife outearning him – especially since it started with him outearning her and her in laws thinking she was a gold digger

    • Anne-on

      I agree that I’m also a bit sad about it. In reading her books he seemed very sweet and dedicated to their family and ‘got’ her fame as his dad was also a semi-famous inventor. I also didn’t love her latest stand up and felt it was pretty gross/disrespectful to her husband, but it’s their relationship so for all I know he was ok with it (though maybe he wasn’t?!?).
      My other reaction is – well hey, at least they had a pre-nup so hopefully this won’t be messy. My (admitted unkind!) reaction is ‘jokes on his family for assuming she was the gold-digger since he quit his job to support her career and probably could have made a good argument for spousal support!’

    • An.On.

      Probably the same amount of bummed I am that John Mulaney’s marriage didn’t work out. You hear about a relationship that sounds like the people like each other and are cool together and then it turns out the cake is a lie.

    • anon

      Her recent standup show was SO UNCOMFORTABLE to watch. To the point where I felt bad for her husband and wondered why the heck she was voicing this stuff out loud at all, let alone to an audience. So no, not surprised. There were too many biting truths to her comedy.

  21. Swim Wear Question

    I’m looking for a woman’s swim bottom that is knee length (like men’s jammers). I can find mid-thigh and mid-calf. I have mid-thigh, but they roll up after my work out when I’m walking around the pool. Mid-calf seems like overkill for me — I’m not looking for modesty, I just don’t want to shave my upper legs constantly and I’ve had bad reactions to waxing.

    Bonus points if chlorine resistant!

  22. Deedee

    Do any of you have a great carry-on suitcase? I bought a cheap hard-side from Amazon but the wheels are now pretty shot. I see a lot of Away bags in the airport – are they the best bet?

    My priorities are something hard sided (so I can’t overpack and to keep weight down). I like spinner wheels for crowded airports and strongly prefer dimensions closer to internat’l carry on restrictions than domestic ones.

    • Anon

      I love my away bag. Parvel also makes cuter designs but they’re more expensive.

      • Anonymous

        My away bag wasn’t my favorite– the zippers were uncomfortable and I prefer the soft sided bags– but when I had an issue with mine, they sent me a new one immediately. I’d buy again just for the great customer service.

    • JTM

      IDK if it’s the best but I love love love my Away bag. I’m still using a first-gen CarryOn and it’s held up amazingly.

    • Anonymous Canadian

      I have and love a Monos spinner carryon. I bought the carryon plus size and am converted to carry-on only travel!

  23. Mouse

    Would love to hear thoughts on navigating deep feelings discussions and investment levels in a new relationship. I (28F) have been seeing a new guy (30M) since January; we met via Hinge and have been gardening exclusively since early Feb. I was out of town this weekend but he when I got back late Sunday afternoon for a drink and pizza before coming back to mine. He was showing me a music video on his phone and a Hinge notification popped up – I paused my profile when we started gardening together and we talked then about how we wouldn’t sleep with or date other people, and I deleted the app a month or so later. Cue big feelings-y conversation which I wasn’t really ready to have late on a Sunday night – I hadn’t realised how much he was still grieving from his last breakup last year (not in a ‘grieving his ex’ way but in a ‘grieving the life he had’ way) and how sad he’s been. It was probably time for us to talk about more serious stuff like that; we have a lot of fun and I really like him but we hadn’t gone deep like that much. I think it was the first time I’d explicitly said that I’m looking for someone to make a life with.

    I am confused rather than upset about the fact that he’s still getting Hinge matches. He said – and I believe him – that he’s not been seeing or gardening with anyone else since me.

    What I said to him – and what I believe – is that it makes me feel a bit odd if I’m more into/ invested in what we are than he is.

    I think we’re okay – gardened last night after the conversation and this morning and it was great.

    Not sure what I’m asking for other than thoughts/ feelings about how to navigate the step from early fun dating into an actual relationship

    • Anon

      He’s seeing other people. Sorry. Up to you if that’s a deal breaker but it would be for me.

      • Mouse

        I don’t think he is, though. He spends so much time with me I don’t know when he would be seeing other people, for a start.

        • Anon

          I mean, married men with whole ass families manage to cheat, so it’s possible. If he’s not actively seeing anyone else then he’s certainly keeping his options open like someone below said.

      • kitten

        +1
        Also I would assume he just wants something casual with you due to both the amount of time that has passed and the Hinge notification.

    • Anon

      I don’t think it’s reasonable to be upset about him being on the app still since you hadn’t deeply connected. Sounds like you crossed that bridge now, so keep talking. Communication is the most important thing in a relationship.

      • Cat

        They had the “DTR” talk and agreed to be exclusive two months ago – why is he still getting notifications? Keeping tabs on other possibilities?

          • Cat

            oh ok, I read “we wouldn’t sleep with or date other people” as broader than that.

            What does staying active on Hinge have to do with grieving an old life that somehow doesn’t have to do with grieving the ex? I don’t know, there is a lot going on here!!

      • Anon

        People sometimes like the ego boost of being wanted. Doesn’t mean he’s cheating necessarily.

        • Monday

          In my experience, people who prioritize always feeling “wanted” or validated are likely to cheat. This relationship is still pretty new, too! So even if he’s following the letter but not the spirit of their agreement, this is a flag since she’s interested in “building a life.”

          I also agree that being active on Hinge does not seem to point to his needing more time to grieve a past relationship…

    • BeenThatGuy

      He is still on Hinge becasue he’s keeping his options open. Maybe he hasn’t been on other dates or gardened but it’s open to it. Otherwise, he would have paused/deleted it like you did.

      • Anon

        This. Exactly this. OP now has the information and can decide what she wants and whether this is it.

      • anon

        Agreed. OP, he may be willing to commit to physical exclusivity, but he’s not committed to emotional exclusivity. If what you want is a commitment to emotional exclusivity, you need to have that conversation expressly with him. Otherwise, he may not be having s*x with others but you may very well find yourself dumped in short order if he finds someone that he is interested in pursuing.

    • Anonymous

      I guess I just don’t view other people liking him onhinge as an issue at all.

      • Anon

        I agree. I think keeping the app installed leaving notifications on is not that big of a deal. In the scheme of things, OP and her boyfriend haven’t been “physically exclusive” for that long – 3, 4 months? I kind of think the OP jumped the gun in deleting her apps because it’s not like this relationship is 100% headed for a long-term commitment, at this point, especially if they hadn’t had the “what is this” conversation yet. “I won’t sleep with other people” isn’t the same as “I’m going to delete apps/stop keeping my options open” and it may be weird or unfortunate, but people do have to be that granular in this day and age. I think if the OP wants the boyfriend to get off Hinge, she needs to make that ask, and if he’s not willing to do that, then she has to make a decision how much it matters to her.

        My $.02 – this is another example of how women date one good guy with potential and lock themselves down into that relationship (which may or may not go the distance) to the exclusion of other options, and often to their detriment. A good way for someone to get hurt is for them to overinvest in a relationship that hasn’t shown itself to be worth the investment yet, because there’s been no signal from the guy’s side that he sees it as long-term or exclusive. It’s one-sided loyalty and it’s unwarranted, this early in a relationship.

        • Anon

          I agree with some of this in the abstract, but in this case they had a conversation that they wouldn’t date other people or be physical with other people. I don’t understand how that is different from being exclusive? I understand it might not be a relationship headed toward marriage in the short term or something, but there were signals from him that it was exclusive.

          I’d be disappointed in this circumstance as well, and I do think he is showing OP that he is keeping his options open (which OP can do whatever she wants with that info).

      • Monday

        The issue is that he’s on Hinge in the first place. Not that someone liked him.

        OP, if I were you and I really liked him, I’d take a deep breath and say “I deleted my dating apps after our decision to be exclusive. Are you willing to delete your apps too?”

    • Anon

      Why does he still have the app and why would he be on it if you two are exclusive? What does it mean to be gardening exclusively? Is that exclusively dating as in bf/gf? I’m so confused about this entire situation. If you had the conversation to garden exclusively I would assume that means you are exclusive! Sounds like you are not on the same page and maybe he does like the ego boost but that’s not fair to you or the women he’s matching with. I’d have a conversation but most likely I’d be out of there. Seems like he want to keep one foot out of the relationship and keep his options open which wouldn’t be enough for me.

    • Jane

      I think you need to have a sit-down conversation with him to get more information, since there seems to be some gaps now. For me, I’d distinguish between still having Hinge and getting notifications because you forgot to delete it, versus actively being on Hinge. The former I think you can assume positive intent and let go. The latter I would define as cheating since you guys said you would not garden or date other people.

      Some questions I’d have if I were you would be: Is he ready for a romantic/committed relationship? Does he want that with you or no? Was he actively on Hinge or had just forgotten to delete the app? What are his long-term relationship visions and life plans more broadly (and do they align with yours)? And, what was the purpose of sharing the story about the grieving of the ex? It sounds to me like he was using it as a justification as to why he isn’t ready for commitment, but I think more clarity there may be helpful for you.

      I’m a direct person, so I would probably ask each of these questions head-on. But a good starting point would be to just gently ask about what he’s looking for more broadly and what he is looking for with you.

      These are very very important conversations to have!! Emotional intimacy and communicating what you want can feel scary, but beating around the bush is an absolute recipe for assumptions that may keep you in relationship that isn’t what you think it is. If I wanted something serious and then other person didn’t, I would run for the ever loving hills. You are only releasing more oxytocin and bonding more deeply with the person each time you hang out, and it will only make it more painful to break up later on. Also, you are delaying the time you will meet your actual person, who may be waiting out there with open arms.

      Main takeaway: ask him what he wants as directly as possible and see if it aligns with what you want. If it doesn’t, leave (imo). If it does, set clear boundaries around your definitions of monogamy to make sure there are no mishaps like this in the future.

      • Anon

        Sorry but if you are actively on a dating app and meet someone there, you do not just forget to delete it, ESPECIALLY if you’re getting pop up notifications.

        I agree with the thought to have a direct conversation, but OP shouldn’t believe any bs about him just forgetting to delete it if he tries to pull that.

    • Anon

      This isn’t complicated. You were out of town for a weekend; he hopped on Hinge in your absence. This is cruel and dishonest, given that you agreed to date/garden exclusively, but it’s not hard to understand what’s going on. Consider how much of your feelings for this guy are tied up in good gardening and how much of it is due to his character.

    • Anonymous

      What kind of notification was it? If it was a new message from someone then I would dump him immediately; to me there is no difference between dating someone else – which you both agreed not to do – and talking to someone for the purpose of dating. It’s the modern equivalent of exchanging numbers with someone at a bar and then also calling and talking to them. Exchanging numbers is shady, but the follow up is crossing a line into cheating territory.

      But don’t those apps send you stupid notifications all the time? Like, “you haven’t logged in for 27 seconds you’re missing out!” I wouldn’t think much of that kind of notification.

      • Anon

        I agree. Depends on what kind of notification since I do think apps always just send notifications. Apps were before my time but I will admit I did forgot to delete some of my online dating accounts for months (maybe even a year) after I became exclusive with someone. I would just continue to have these conversations with him to see why he’s still on the apps and what this means for you all and then you can make a decision based on what you want and trust your gut.

    • An.On.

      It sounds like you both agreed you would be exclusive, but you think you’re more into him than he is into you? I mean, how does he act when he’s with you? Just because he has an app doesn’t mean he’s got one foot out the door. It just sounds to me like he’s moving at a slower pace than you. My opinion would be to bring up things that are bothering you but handle conversations without judgment (if he’s not ready then that’s okay too).

    • Jolene

      Should it really be this hard? If he’s into you and you both are exclusive and happy in the relationship, should you have to police his behavior or Have Deep Conversations In Which You Declare Your Intentions? Wouldn’t you both just kind of, not date or f other people?

      I’m also curious if the referenced “gardening exclusively since early Feb” was actually explicitly agreed upon, or an assumption you made OP, given your comment below that he couldn’t possibly be seeing anyone else bc when would he have the time. Did you/have you actually stated and agreed that you’re exclusive? Do you call each other boyfriend and girlfriend?

  24. Anon

    Help resolve a difference of opinion between DH and I.

    We live on a large lot in the suburbs. We have a young dog, and an electric fence around the entire property. The dog has never tried to leave the yard and isn’t much of a barker. We both work from home, and the dog spends hours outside each day without much issue.

    One of us thinks it’s okay to leave the dog outside in the yard while we’re away for brief periods of time, and the other does not. Who is right?

    • Anon

      Depends on how happy the dog is outside and risks to the dog. In my suburban neighborhood, I’d never leave a small dog outside alone for even a few minutes due to risk of coyote predation. I definitely wouldn’t leave the house with the dog outside, no matter how big it was. And do you know for sure it doesn’t bark when you leave?

    • Anon

      Never would I ever leave my dog outside. But ymmv if it’s a large dog not as vulnerable to threats.

    • Cat

      as a neighbor, a dog left unattended for long periods of time outdoors (whether you’re home or not) would likely be irritating. Not “much” of a barker is still barking.

    • AIMS

      I would never leave anything I cared about outside without an actual fence. Putting aside coyotes, which may or may not be a problem in your area, what if some person decides to take your dog? Never mind that the optics of an unattended dog probably annoy at least some of your neighbors (for some reason an actual fence mitigates this so maybe that’s a solution for you?).

    • Anon

      Am I correct in assuming you mean an invisible fence, not a hot wire on a physical fence?
      I am a runner & cyclist and I used to work in a vet clinic. As a runner and cyclist, any time I pass a yard with an invisible fence, I wonder if today is going to be the day the batteries on the collar go dead or if I’m enough of a temptation to take the jolt. As a former vet clinic employee, I’ve assisted in putting back together too many dogs who got out of these “fences” and got hurt.
      The only place I would use an invisible/electric fence is to reinforce a physical fence. I definitely wouldn’t allow the dog outside when I wasn’t home with only that as containment.

      • Anon

        This. Prey-driven breeds will blow through the fence on instinct, then refuse the shock to come back over the line once the excitement is over. You’re setting up a situation where they are disincentivized to return home.

    • Anon

      I am with the person who thinks that the dog should not be left outside when you are not home. Another dog, a coyote, fox, person can all cross into the yard without the slightest barrier, and your dog could be hurt or stolen.

    • Anonymous

      My dog literally throws a hissy fit if I try to keep her from spending most of the day lounging in the backyard. She is a rescue who likely lived outdoors for most of her life. She is also vehemently opposed to screen time and therefore doesn’t like to be around while we are WFH. She comes inside when we power down for the day. We live in the suburbs, and the dog is the top-level predator in the ecosystem. I can see the backyard from the window. She almost never barks, and on the rare occasions when she does I bring her in immediately. I do not let her stay outside when no one is home because too much could go wrong.

      • Anonymous

        Adding that I would never leave a dog outside unsupervised with only an electric fence. That is much different from a real fence, partly because it does not deter incursions from people and other animals as noted above.

        • Anon

          I am in the same situation. My rescue eats inside and sleeps inside but that’s it. Rain or shine, he’s at the back door asking to be let out into our fully fenced backyard. He spends his entire day out there, and is really only happy there. Also does not like walks or visits to the park.

          And yes, we leave him there if we are just running errands. It’s where he wants to be. He’s not a barker and doesn’t react to squirrels or dogs walking by. His mortal enemy is the garbage truck (no idea why, he adores the postal carrier and UPS guy) but that’s only once a week. Other than that, he never barks, unless he’s in the house and wants to go outside.

    • helloanon

      I would never, ever, ever leave my dog outside when I wasn’t home, and I live in a very safe, dog friendly suburb.

    • Anon

      OP – Thanks y’all. Looks like I’m on the right side of this particular disagreement. She’s a large dog, and a mutt – not a high value target to either coyotes or thieves – but I just felt uncomfortable leaving her out and vulnerable – she may not leave the yard, but other things could come in. Appreciate the feedback.

      • Jolene

        INFO: Why does your husband feel it is necessary to leave the dog outside when he leaves the house? Why can’t he just bring her inside?

    • DO NOT LEAVE YOUR DOG ALONE

      Dog fighting rings steal unattended dogs for bait dogs, to train fighting dogs.

      Read that again.

      Do not ever leave your dog unattended outside (your home, a coffeeshop, etc).

      • Anon

        I think there are plenty of reasons to not leave the dog outside, so I’m not advocating for that at all, but this seems like a risk that’s totally blown out of proportion, on par with heroin-addled Halloween candy.

        • Anon

          Yes, this makes no sense to me. Dogs are a dime a dozen. Or less, I suppose, since it actually costs the county more money to be continually catching and euthanizing them.

          I know small trendy breeds are stolen for resale sometimes. But I’m really skeptical about people breaking the law to steal dogs for bait. I’ve seen this as a reason not to list “free to a good home” dogs, but that’s different from worrying all the time about a dog being stolen from the yard.

          (I’m still team “take the dog in if no one’s home” though! If some weird, anomalous thing is going to happen outside, it will happen the one time that the dog is out and no one is home.)

        • Anon 2.0

          In my area any larger sized dog with any sort of “bully” breed characteristics is a target. It is not fear mongering. A few months ago a lady caught someone in the process of lifting her dog over the backyard fence to steal him! She caught them mid-steal and he dropped the dog. Also, there have been instances of pricey designer breeds being the target of thieves as well.

        • Anon

          Depends on where you live. I’m in North Florida and it’s definitely a thing here among certain breeds & mixes. I would never leave a bully breed out in sight of the road here if I wasn’t there to supervise.

    • Anon

      No, don’t leave it outside. As a person who lives in a neighborhood full of electric fences and dogs, I like to be able to walk my neighborhood in peace. That never happens because there are dogs everywhere running to the edge of their electric fence and barking at me. It is also pretty unsettling to have a dog run at you barking, especially since the electric fences don’t always work.

    • Anonymous

      I wouldn’t leave my girl outside because of coyotes or thieves. What if she got into something she shouldn’t like, idk, a dead bird? We’ve encountered a few of those. I won’t let her eat it because who knows why the bird is dead…it could have eaten rat poison.

    • Emma

      My yard is fully fenced with a physical fence and I still don’t leave the dog out when I’m gone, even for a short time. I would worry about thieves, wild animals, and the fact that my dog is a little houdini. I’ve also seen way too many dogs run straight through the electric fence. I would not take the risk.

    • Anon

      NFW I would never leave my dog outside if I wasn’t home, if that’s what you mean by “while we’re away for brief periods of time.” I’ve seen the most well-trained dogs bust through those fences for the most unexpected/uncharacteristic reasons.

    • Anonymous

      I guess this is a thing that varies? I grew up semi-rural (Scandi), and dogs on long leads and dogs fenced in «running yards» (chicken coop for dogs) was very, very normal. Only little lapdogs would be inside.

    • Anon 2.0

      Under no circumstances should your dog be left outdoors when you are not home. There are just too many things that can go wrong. The person who thinks this is okay is not just wrong – they’ve went off the deep end and are treading water in their sea of wrong.

    • Anonymous

      Never leave a dog outside when someone isn’t home, that’s so irresponsible and dangerous. Cars, dognapping, wildlife, etc there are many harms!

    • Anonymous

      I wouldn’t with just an electric fence because I don’t trust dogs not to escape it or people to steal it. If you had a backyard not visible from the street with an actual, physical fence and it wasn’t a small dog that a hawk or other bird of prey could get, I would. But I grew up in a time and place where most dogs lived outside most of the time unless the weather was bad anyway.

    • Bonnie Kate

      We have a fully fenced (physical fence) with a gate 7 acre property and do not leave the dog outside when we’re not home. It just doesn’t seem particular safe to me, plus I’d be afraid the dog would want to follow me out (digging under the fence) when I leave (because I’m his human, he wants to go too!).

      That said, my parents would leave their dogs (when they had them – they haven’t for a few years) outside on a long lead/dog house while they were gone for the day. However, they live in the country so no neighbors for the dog to bother.

    • Anon

      I would never leave the dog outside while
      I’m not home. Too much risk to the dog, it could be stolen and used as a bait dog in dog fighting.

      • Anon

        I also grew up in a rural area where dogs roamed free, and there were often dogs hit by cars, shot, and attacked. And lots of puppies all over the place. I don’t have people leaving dogs that don’t dig behind a physical barrier that is in good repair and secure, but what I saw as a kid didn’t convince me that all dogs can be left outside without an effective fence and it all turns out fine.

      • Anon

        “Young dog” I think matters here. A professional working dog on a farm or a ranch is basically a canine adult who can make good decisions.

  25. Anonymous

    I’m seeking some advice-looking for support/insight. I realize this is a huge privilege. I’ve hated my job since the pandemic and have begun job searching. It’s becoming clear that it will be difficult to get hired into a job as well -paying and family friendly as mine. It makes me feel grateful but also hopeless.

    Anyway, an amount of money may be coming our way from my family. (Contracts are being signed but might fall through in due diligence). It’s the equivalent of about three or four years of my pre-tax salary (but will also be taxed). My husband makes the lions’ share of our HHI and we have young kids.

    I am really tempted to tell him I want to use this money to not work for a few years and keep the younger child in part time daycare. (We’ve talked about me just quitting and this is his preference.) I want to take my toddler to the library story time and take my kid to t ball and pta and still have time to shower and work out and make dinner.

    This will ruin my entire career right? I’m probably borrowing trouble because this deal might not go through-but I imagine a similar one might if it doesn’t. I feel like a crummy parter saying this to him-I know it puts a ton of pressure on him if we’re only one income. Obviously his preference would be to plop it into index funds and/or eliminate our mortgage. But at the same time it seems like a giant pile of money is the answer I have been searching for-even if it’s not a long term solution.

    • Anon

      If you liked your job before the pandemic, perhaps give it some more time to reset? The amount of money you’re talking about doesn’t seem like enough to support the kind of drastic option you’re considering. A nice chunk of change isn’t the same as FU money.

      • Lilliet

        The advice we all need “A nice chunk of change isn’t the same as FU money.” TY ha!

    • Anon

      What if you just do it for a few months instead of a few years? Might be just as good at relieving burn out.

    • Anon

      any of these kinds of decisions should be made jointly. whether this ruins your entire career depends on what field you are in, where you are located, etc. what don’t you like about your current role? is there any way to take a sabbatical from your current job (you sound burnt out) or switch to a part time role?

      • Anonymous

        Thanks. My job is now remote and court went online. Basically I hate sitting alone in a room all day. I can go back to court but it means giving the type of law I did ten years ago another shot. That’s higher stress and because I don’t have a ton of experience in it, my companies’ competitors want to pay me about what I was making ten years ago. Also it would mean a smaller office and I couldn’t take off for say a school break or a sick kid as easily as I can now. I might talk to them about leave without pay. I’m a long term employee in good standing.

        I absolutely know it’s not f you money. But it’s just money that I never counted on and I feel bitter that I work for money and I’m miserable and more is never enough.

    • Anonymous

      As someone who is currently trapped in a job I hate because I need to pay for college, I would earmark that windfall for college. Having college fully funded opens up your options immensely.

    • Anon

      Just for friendly advice/thought. Hypothetically if a short term employment pause turned into a longer term pause: 1) Have you hit your social security credit points to qualify for social security later? (I’m assuming you are in the US) 2) Have you looked into investing that money upfront might do to lessen your overall working years? (aka faster retirement, FIRE numbers, etc.)? I’m use bankrate retirement calculators way too often – My mother growing up quit a stressful job and had a hard time re-entering the workforce after being SAHM for 2 years. It honestly took about 15 years to recover from. If I was going to quit for a longer period of time, I’d want to line these two numbers up to see where I landed.
      If I were in your shoes and learned that by investing that money and working for a couple of more years meant I could retire way earlier than 60’s. That would motivate me to keep working a while longer and invest that windfall now.

    • Anonymous

      If I were you, I’d take 6 months to do your thing. Then I’d work on a career pivot to something you actually enjoy. Use the money as a buffer. You can work part time. You can work for a non profit. You can sell real estate on the side. Buy and manage investment properties.

      I am currently part time with kids in elem school. In my experience, most parents that went SAH when they had littles start to itch for work once the kids are all in elem. I have a friend that was in PR and is now wildly successful in real estate after taking 6 years off with her twins. Another that went part time when her second was born and still is 11 years later. A guy that hung a shingle and is a part time divorce atty.

      It’s not black and white.

      • Anon

        I agree with this. Can you take a 6 month LOA from your job and spend 4 months doing whatever you want and then 2 months figuring out what you want to do next? I actually think after 4 months you’re probably going to get bored of that life. And if you can’t figure out what to do next during the 2 months, you can always go back to your job and lean out and still try to figure out what you want to do.

      • Anonymous

        Coming back with more examples/inspo of friends of mine:
        – former lawyer; stayed home for a couple years and is now the director of the town historical society.
        – former MBA business-y startup guy; now owns a series of restaurants and drives all the sports carpools
        – former sales exec, now he is a trainer and partial owner and two CrossFit gyms ; his wife was in sales too and now owns a Floral design company
        – she was a librarian, husband in big law. Now she’s the head of a major nonprofit (not salaried).
        – they were both working for the federal reserve. She took a Big Corporate Job; he stayed at home. She eventually went out on her own and he took a general manager type job for benefits.

        Anyway, lots of options. Don’t feel like you have to decide your entire future now.

    • anon a mouse

      If your husband wants to eliminate your mortgage, can you do that AND have you step out of the workforce if this is an option? Like if your husband already is the breadwinner, would eliminating the mortgage free up the funds for daycare and allow you to take a breath and think about your next steps? Think about not necessarily leaving the workforce forever, but maybe you can do something part time or more mission-driven if you have the freedom to do so?

      I will probably always work because I really enjoy it, but we’ve discussed that my husband would become a SAHD if we are ever able to pay off the house. I would worry less about finding a spot in the workforce …. if you are not gunning for partner, it matters less, and the pandemic has upended all sorts of traditional beliefs about employment gaps.

  26. Anon

    Could use some advice from moms of teens and adult kids regarding disrespectful behavior from kids and how you handle it.

    Our son is generally a good kid, gets good grades, has friends with their heads on straight, etc. This weekend, he was studying in his room with the music cranked and my husband went in to tell him to turn it down. Suddenly I hear “Oh my God will you F— OFF, it’s not that loud!” from my son. Whoa! What the heck?

    I go in and my husband is walking away from the room and I say, did he just say what I thought he said? Yep, my husband says and then says, it’s not a big deal, he’s stressed about his math test. We should let it go.

    All I can think about is that if I had told one of my parents to f-off when I was living at home they absolutely, definitely would not have let it go. I tell my husband, nope, and go in my son’s room. I tell him that stress or no stress, you do not tell people to f-off when they politely ask you to stop doing something that is bothering them. Son goes into how “the music wasn’t up that high” and starts arguing with me. I am talking to him about respecting people’s space and preferences, which includes not having to listen to loud music if they don’t want to, and he rolls his eyes at me and starts texting one of his friends. (P.S., telling this story, I feel like this is such a cliche teen movie scenario and prior to having a teenager I did not think scenes like this really happened IRL. But friends, I am here to tell you, this really happened.)

    So again, this is disrespect – we have a rule about “no being on devices when family members are having a conversation” and so I just say, give me your phone, and I take it. I say, you know the rule and you willfully and purposely violated the rule right in front of me, you know there are consequences when you do things like that. He explodes, starts saying we are the strictest parents of anyone he knows and he’s tired of all of our BS rules, etc. etc. I am kind of aghast as this is all coming out of nowhere, I haven’t heard this before (and definitely this is the first time he has ever told us to f-off, that’s a new one on me for sure). I just walk away and then I hear the door slam and then I hear something (not sure what) SLAM against the door, like he threw something. I know everyone is in a heightened state at this point so I don’t go back in. He didn’t come out of his room for the rest of the night.

    I still have his phone. He’s doing that thing where he refuses to say one word to us, left for school this morning without saying anything. He has to get picked up for practice today and I am sure that’s going to be fun. I was reading that taking away a phone is a big deal for a teenager because it’s their “lifeline to the world,” etc. but we gave very clear rules when we gave him the phone, which was that the phone could be taken away if it was misused or for things like general disrespect. So I am not inclined to give back the phone until at least he’s willing to talk to us about what the heck was going on with him yesterday.

    My husband is telling me that teen boy emotions are this wild rollercoaster, it’s probably not like anything I have experienced (to that I say, HA! Try being pregnant) and that we need to roll with the punches a little bit when it comes to the disrespect stuff. Our son likely doesn’t even know why he reacted like that and is sorry for it even if he hasn’t said so. I understand the relative merits of that position, but then have visions of our son still living with us at age 30 because he tells one boss after another to f-off and never figures out, you cannot just say whatever you want to say to people and expect to get away with it. To me, the time is now to reinforce boundaries and teach that respect is a fundamental part of getting along in life and that there can be serious consequences to disrespecting the wrong person at the wrong time (like, people get shot over that).

    So, any advice? Should I give back the phone today? Should we try to force him to sit down and have a conversation about this or wait until he approaches us? I am worried if it’s the latter we may be waiting awhile, this kid is pretty stubborn. Thanks.

      • Anne-on

        No. I had a college boyfriend who threw things at/near me in rage and it escalated from there. He was a teenager and I am 100% sure his parents treated it as ‘boys are just boys’. We need to do better.

        • Anon

          +1 People need to learn that yelling obscenities is off limits. It’s not a normal teenage thing. It’s abusive.

        • Anon

          Unfortunately, this. He isn’t going to magically figure out that this isn’t acceptable.

    • Anne-on

      Oof. I am so sorry. My kid is neurodivergent and does not do well with stress/big emotions. We’ve been having conversations on talking to people with respect/how to manage big emotions/disagreements since he was little because he had BIG tantrums/threw things/yelling/saying cruel things to us/etc. All that being said – I would have handled it exactly like you did with a bonus of taking away even more privledges once anything was thrown. You do NOT get to throw things at/near someone period, and as someone who endured assault I would take a VERY firm line on that.
      I would have my kid scheduled for a therapy appointment, he would NOT be getting his phone back, and he’d be sitting through required youtubes on anger management and then required to discuss them with us as a family. I’d also get your husband on the same page ASAP – I 100% view my role as a parent of boys to raise good men and this is way beyond the pale ok behavior. You don’t speak to people like this period and your family is not your punching bag.

      • Anon

        OP here. Thanks for saying this: ” You don’t speak to people like this period and your family is not your punching bag” because that is what I want to prevent. I believe there is always, always a better way to cope with anger, frustration, stress, etc. than using ugly words, throwing things, etc. This is new behavior from my son and it may indeed be a one-off, but I feel like I want to make a strong and definitive point that it’s never acceptable to act like this. I do not want to be the person getting a call from my son’s girlfriend (boyfriend, whatever) that he had an outburst and why is he like this and why didn’t we do something about it? This is an area where I feel like “leeway” is not desirable as it may send a tacit message that venting feelings unconstructively is cool as long as you only do it to your family. It’s not cool to do this, no matter who you’re in front of.

        I did have a conversation with my husband this morning where he admitted his initial response was to walk away largely because he was kind of shocked and confused about what the heck was happening. My husband is not a “reacter” – he tends to withdraw and try to reason things out rather than respond in the moment, but agreed with me that yesterday’s moment demanded a more immediate response. (I also think my husband’s feelings were hurt because he and my son are really close.) We’re in agreement about my having taken away the phone and have talked about what we do to present a united front if this happens again (which I hope it doesn’t).

      • Gh

        Omg, what. Anger management on YouTube and therapy because the kid lost his cool once?

          • anon

            Really? Let’s reframe – your husband, after a stressful day is playing call of Duty too loud when the baby is asleep. You ask him to turn it down, he calls you an f’in b1tch and throws something next to your head. That’s ok? Because guess what – my brother learned that behavior from my dad (you’re overreacting, I didn’t hit you, I just threw that glass/remote/phone ‘near’ you). Guess what – both my dad and my brother curse at, scream, and hit their partners. It starts somewhere.

          • Anon

            Teenagers are not the same as adult men. This kid is still learning emotional regulation. A calm conversation about it after he has had a chance to calm down seems like the appropriate response to me. If it becomes a pattern, then escalate how you’re addressing it. A one off is not cause for alarm. If anything, it’s a chance to help understand your kid better and give him tools to help better control his emotions.

    • Anon

      I was your kid. It’s teenage boundary pushing. At the same time, I grew up in the rules house and left as soon as I could. You may want to think about balancing some stridentness as your kid gets older and becomes an adult.

      • Anon 2.0

        Agreed. FWIW, I don’t have kids yet but from my own experience the ones who had parents with a lot of rules tend to swing the pendulum too far on the other side when they leave. The goal isn’t to raise a kid who toes the line of rules, but to raise a person who can use critical thinking to make good choices. No phones during conversations sounds like a rule for the sake of a rule to me. I’d step back and maybe look at the rules you enforce as well as his overall behavior and if there are other causes for concern regarding anger.

        • Anonymous

          I don’t think “no phones during conversations” is “a rule for the sake of a rule.” It’s rude to be on your phone while talking to someone. It’s not the sort of thing you can get by with in adult life, at least not high-achieving real professional adult life.

          • Anon 2.0

            My issues is, that just isn’t reasonable. DH and I may be on our phones when we are having a conversation with one another. Is it all the time? No. But it does happen. The better alternative, imo, is to teach the kid when it is okay to be on the phone when someone is speaking and when it isn’t. Life is more nuanced than “never do this one thing ever”. To me a teen on a phone while a parent is talking to them is not a big deal.

          • Anonymous

            Anon 2.0, my husband and I are never on our phones during conversation unless one of us is looking up something we are talking about (concert dates, weather, etc.). If one person wants to initiate conversation while the other is already using their phone, we ask if we can interrupt, then wait until the other person finishes what they were doing and looks up to begin talking. A person cannot pay attention to two things at once.

            Respect goes both ways, too. Our teenager gets mad if we aren’t paying attention when she is trying to talk to us.

          • Bonnie Kate

            I really, really wish that more adults adhered to the “no phones during conversations” rule, and I completely disagree that high-achieving real professional adults need to have their phones in their hands or on their desks or in use at all during conversations. Most of the time it’s actually probably hurting your performance because you’re not actually listening to the conversation if you’re doing something with your phone. During the conversation, unless you’re literally looking up one thing that pertains or making a quick note, put it in your pocket, purse, on the floor – out of sight.

            OP, you seem very reasonable with this rule to me.

      • Lily

        I mean this genuinely, out of genuine curiosity, but can you please explain this approach? So you would have zero consequences for telling a parent to f off or texting while parent is talking to them or throwing things in their room? How would a teenager learn what is appropriate and what is not? How do you have a good relationship with someone who curses at you?

        • Anon

          Yeah this thread is making me feel very strict because there’d absolutely be consequences if I had a teenager act like this

    • Anonymous

      Mom of teen girl here. For perspective, this is just not that big a deal in the grand scheme of teen behavior and attitude issues. He isn’t sneaking out, or skipping school, or doing drugs.

      That said, in my house it’s not okay for a child to tell a parent to eff off, and there would be consequences. In this instance I would have taken away a privilege, and a day’s worth of phone privileges seems proportional. I would return the phone tonight after a brief conversation reinforcing your expectations about behavior and consequences for violating those expectations. I would not try to force him to say anything other than to acknowledge that he understands the expectations. I like to make the expectations about behavior, not attitude or feelings. I would not talk about “respect,” but would instead focus on the refusal to turn the volume down when asked, the yelling, and the cursing. I am constantly reminding my own teen that she is allowed to feel however she feels, but her feelings do not give her license to act however she wants.

      I highly recommend the writings of Lisa Damour, Ph.D. on raising teens.

      • Anon

        “I am constantly reminding my own teen that she is allowed to feel however she feels, but her feelings do not give her license to act however she wants.”

        This is my position too. Thanks for the advice and for the recommended reading, I will look into that right away.

    • Anonymous

      I’m probably closer in age to your son than you (late 20s) my parents were very strict and often stole my phone (it was a theft because I paid for it) and DHs parents were similar. We both moved out at 17 and went low contact with our parents, they get limited financial support since they can’t take care of themselves but we made a very cognisant choice to not finance everything.

    • Anonymous

      Wow omg you sound full on bananas. Give him his phone back. Revisit your nonsense rules. Apologize.

          • Anonymous

            Lol. Cleverer than this response! You better get off your phone, you might miss 4th period Spanish class.

        • anon

          I know, right? Or the nonfunctional adult who still still blames it on how OMG STRICT her parents were.

        • Anon

          No… we found the verbal abuser. It’s not okay to swear at people who make a reasonable request, and verbal abusers blame the victim of their outbursts for not having a thicker skin or more perspective.

          • Anon

            ding ding ding. Something tells me Anon at 12:59 has had outbursts like this before

    • Aunt Jamesina

      As a former high school teacher, I noticed that when I let some things like this slide in the moment BUT revisited it later when everyone (including me) had cooled off, it went much better. (But feel free to ignore my advice because I just have an infant!).

      Teens have adult lines of thought with childish impulses. They really, really want to be heard and be respected (even when making terrible choices!), so use this to your advantage. Talking a few hours later and starting with with something like, “what happened earlier?” and letting them explain/vent can go a long way. Then ask them to take perspective: how does he think that made dad feel? What would be a better way to communicate next time? What can he do to make amends? Then explain your punishment. If possible, I would do this as a united front with your husband so it doesn’t seem like dad is okay with it but mom isn’t. You were explicit that the phone was contingent on respectful behavior, so I think it’s fair to take it as long as you’re explicit about when/under what circumstances he gets it back.

      As a former surly teen, being lectured was a sure way to get me to double down and avoid my family or explode later. No, there’s no explanation that will let him off the hook for what he said. But I would give him a chance to voice his issues. I found most teens were really good at recognizing the problem and wanting to make amends once they cooled off.

      Good luck!

      • Senior Attorney

        This is great advice. Remember in the Gottmans’ work on marriages, they talk about how people can get “flooded” with emotions so they can’t respond rationally in the moment. Now imagine how that must apply x 1,000 for a teen!

        Also, OP, I am just going to observe that in my experience, almost every time somebody was going on about “disrespect,” it made me respect them less. So I might couch any discussion in terms of general rules of civilized behavior (“it’s just not okay to curse at somebody for making a reasonable request”), rather than more personal (“OMG you disrespected your father!!”)!

    • Vicky Austin

      I once informed my mom that I f-ing hated her and broke down sobbing, and I am on my fifth straight boss whom I have managed not to yell or curse at. Worrying about that is, gently, the teenage equivalent of worrying that your baby will never stop breastfeeding or never outgrow wanting to be constantly held by you and only you.

      I don’t think taking the phone is where you went wrong. Phones may be more socially important now than ever, but that doesn’t make them not a privilege. I think your mistake was not going back in last night after a decent amount of cooling-off time to explain why you took the phone and what would happen next. When you’re in an emotional stand-off like that and no communication is happening, the teenager I was would 100% have fought back the only way I had at my disposal – silent treatment. So I would talk to him when you pick him up from practice and decide whether to give back the phone based on how he conducts himself in that conversation. And I would lead by apologizing for not communicating clearly with him last night. It would have been life-changing for me for my parents to say “I’m sorry” to me at that age.

      And before then, if you can swing it, I would have a serious conversation with your husband about a united front and agree on expectations around language and anger like that, because it’s really not fair to your son to have one parent shrug at being told to f off and just mosey out, and the other come storming in 2 seconds later to avenge.

    • Anon

      Hi I read your whole post and considered all the details. My conclusion is that a teenager has replaced your son. Don’t worry. You’ll get your son back in a few years.

      Give him back his phone, but maybe insist he apologize to his dad.

      He can listen to his music with earbuds or headphones. I’m actually quite surprised any modern teen is still blasting music.

      • Anon

        OP here – I LOL’d at this. I had a friend tell me, when my son was about 10, to enjoy it while it lasted because at some point your child gets replaced by this changeling person who does things you would never anticipate in a million years. And here I am, it has happened to me.

        Thanks for the advice, it’s appreciated.

        • Anon

          You’ve got a good kid. He was studying for a math test on the weekend. He has a nice group of friends. Think of all the ways it could be worse!

          Give the phone back and find a way to give him space to talk about his feelings. I’ve always found a long car drive is the time when the feelings came pouring out (my son is in college now and the drive to and from campus is prime feelings time.) (just to be clear, I’m not saying you should announce that you’re going on a long drive to talk about feelings!!!)

    • Developmentally on track

      I have three teenagers, two of them boys. I’m 10,000% with your DH on this one. Give the phone back without saying a word, and bring it up in a few days when everyone – including you – has had a chance to calm down. You made the point when you took the phone away, so you showed misbehavior has consequences – I agree that was the appropriate response given the household rules and his behavior (not that you need me to validate there…). I’d also recommend having the conversation in a car or walking somewhere, so he’s not sitting right across from you. Ask him what was wrong, and listen. Let him talk before you lecture. Maybe let your husband do that if you don’t think you can do it calmly in a “dude, what WAS that? Very unlike you, is there something going on?” tone.

      I agree with your position on respect and following the rules, but I’m also sure he understands completely that he has messed up and is really embarrassed, and the conversation is likely to be humiliating to him if he has to essentially beg to have his phone back. He’s a teen, not a young kid, and humiliation will only isolate him from you. I do think you’re underestimating the hormonal issues plus the stress of the math test, and frankly once things escalate, it’s hard for teenagers to find an offramp themselves. Since this is not how he usually is, let him have a little grace. He’s human too. And developmentally, pushing against your rules is pretty much his actual job right now. You’ve held the line, but don’t want to be punitive at this point.

      Also, kids often blow up at their parents and families because they know – subconsciously – they are in a safe space. They wouldn’t have lost it at school or in a friend’s house, etc. One temper tantrum as a teen does not at all mean he’s going to lose it in front of a boss.

    • Anon

      “My husband is telling me that teen boy emotions are this wild rollercoaster, it’s probably not like anything I have experienced (to that I say, HA! Try being pregnant)”

      Whatever you do, please do not actually be this dismissive to your son. Actually, don’t ever do it again, even online in an anonymous forum. He’ll be able to tell how you feel. Your son is obviously feeling real feelings. The number one most damaging thing my parents did to our relationship when I was a teen was to invalidate my feelings. Don’t be that kind of parent.

      • Lily

        Wow. She didn’t say that to her son. And I think it’s extremely dismissive (to all women, especially ones who have been pregnant) of her husband to suggest she’s never experienced hormonally-induced irritability or mood swings.

        • Anon

          It doesn’t matter if she didn’t say it to her son, I’m sure he can tell what she thinks.

          • Anonymous

            Tell me you don’t have a teenage kid without telling me you don’t have a teenage kid.

            Srsly they’re pretty oblivious. It’s basically the most self-centered time of a person’s life. Of course, some people never do grow out of it.

      • anon

        Her point isn’t that his feelings aren’t real, it’s that hormone-driven mood swings don’t give you carte blanche to be a d!ck. And that her husband is off-base to claim that she has no idea what a rollercoaster hormones can cause.

    • Anonymous

      I think you should have a conversation with your son and hear him out about your rules. Your focus on establishing boundaries makes me wonder if you are stricter than you realize.

      Example from my life! I love and have a great relationship with my parents. That being said, they were incredibly strict when I was growing up. They viewed their rules as reasonable, permissive rules that everyone could agree on and they had no sense of how out of step they were with my peers. I was an extremely well behaved, straight A student, who had the same friends from the time I was in third grade through the end of high school, dated the same well behaved, straight A student all through high school and did not drink. I abided by my parents rules for a really long time until we eventually had a big blowup about prom (couldn’t participate in some post-prom festivities due to their rules, and I basically lost it and was like I’ve followed these incredibly restricted rules my whole life with no violations and I don’t understand why you don’t trust me).

      And, for the record, I was a total mess in college in part because I spent so much time following my parent’s rules I never learned to think through what I wanted for myself/establish habits that worked for me rather than my parents.

      • Anonymous

        Sorry, but post-prom festivities are how girls get r@ped. No matter how good you believed your judgment to be, your parents were right to keep you out of that situation.

          • Anonymous

            You seriously think she should have been allowed to go to some overnight house or hotel party with a bunch of drunk teenagers?

          • Anonymous

            Yes because that’s literally what college is and depriving teens of experiences where they can learn their boundaries is how young adults go off the deep end. My bff had very strict parents and wasn’t allowed prom etc, didn’t take her all that long to start doing coke and jetsetting with skeevy men in college because she over corrected.

          • Anon

            Anonymous @ 2:05– I re-read the post and didn’t see where the post-prom activity was drunken teenagers alone anywhere. I trust her to know whether the activity was safe and appropriate, especially when the benefit of hindsight as an adult.

            My parents were very strict, and there were plenty of innocuous things I wasn’t allowed to do. I was allowed to go to an after prom sleepover at a girlfriend’s house on the condition we went from prom to her house, but I wouldn’t have been allowed to go somewhere other than her house, even if it had been all girls that my parents knew.

        • Anon

          What? You have no idea what the post-prom festivities were in this situation.

        • Anonymous

          Said post prom festivity was attending the school-sponsored post prom sleepover at our local community center featuring a pool party, a popular local band, tons of games and prizes and food, and 30 parent and teacher chaperones. Absolutely no alcohol present. It was started after a senior died in a drunk driving accident on prom night. 90% of my grade attended and didn’t drink – we were freshman when the student was killed and it made a big impact.

          But sure, imposing the no co-ed sleepovers rule made a ton of sense.

          • Anon

            I went to one of those and loved it! It was actually an all night party with a ball pit, climbing wall, and hypnotist.

    • Anon

      My $.02, I would wait until tensions are lower and then sit down with him and calmly discuss it. Talk to him about how it’s not about the volume of the music, it’s about his actions and words in response. Talk to him about how it made you/DH feel. I wouldn’t make a big deal out of punishing him, emphasize understanding/empathy instead of rules/punishment.

    • Anonymous

      As a one-off, I don’t think you need to do anything more than to correct the behavior through showing the the bad behavior is unacceptable and has consequences. I like the “lose a privilege” suggestion above. But just letting it go is lazy and you and your husband are better than that. It is easier for you to just ignore it, sure, but your job is to correct it. And frankly, I think sometimes good teenage kids engage in this kind of behavior because they are looking for you to dig in on a deeper level, attempting to trigger a conversation through which you can get at what is really troubling them at the time (e.g., struggling with academic pressure, friend group drama, etc.) that they haven’t wanted to just share.

      • Anon

        OP here – this is a great take and I appreciate hearing it. This is out-of-character enough for him that I wonder if something bigger is going on and am going to try to make some space so that can come forward.

    • Anon

      Your husband’s take is so far down the “boys will be boys” track, and so dismissive of you as an adult capable of empathy and logic, it’s no wonder you can’t come to an agreement. He thinks teen boys are so special that you, their mom, can’t fathom what it’s like in their shoes, because hormones? Eye rolling to infinity. Your instincts sound spot on. Without you, your husband would be raising an entitled manchild who sees nothing wrong with verbal abuse, and that’s just the starting point.

    • Anon

      My father was very strict and controlling. The problem was not the rules; it was that he would go absolutely nuts when they were broken. He also demanded respect but was incredibly disrespectful of his children. It really messed me up as an adult, because I have no ability to gauge where lines are.

      Your rules are fine and your reaction is proportional. (My father threw my older sister out of the house for a month for something similar.) Your problem is that you need to find an off ramp for this standoff and you need to see if there are other stressors in your son’s life that leaves him with no bandwidth.

    • Atlanta

      Mom of 2 teenaged boys here. I want to say first, that behavior even if out of the blue doesn’t sound all that unusual for a teen boy to occasionally engage in. So I think the comments about immediately requiring therapy are too much. If he repeatedly has trouble with anger management maybe think about it, but for a one time asshole moment, no. Second, it sounds like you handled things really, really well. You imposed a logical consequence and but you didn’t let it is escalate too much. Now the question is what comes next? I guarantee you he is as embarrassed about about the situation as he is mad. You’ve demonstrated that you require respect, so now give him grace and forgiveness. Give him his phone back today, tell him you love him, and move on. No need for a talk today. In a couple days ask if there was anything in particular going on that made him blow up at his dad like that. Don’t make a conversation contingent on getting the phone back – he’s already gotten the consequence.

    • Anonymous

      My daughter is 9 and we already have the tween version of this. She doesn’t have a phone yet but we have similar conveniences re: technology.

      I find that The Big Lectures make everything worse. He knows he screwed up. Tell him your are disappointed in how he treated you and give the phone back.

  27. Anon

    What’s the warmest/coziest place you’ve ever traveled? Where you could just be, nothing was a hassle, and you really recharged? Not looking for a tourist destination where I’d run from one site to another but not looking for full on nature/hiking the whole time either. I guess I prefer some combo of easy to get to small town with something to do but might be just as happy in a pretty place looking at nature. Prefer US or Europe – bonus if it’s easy to get to from DC. Life has me down and I just want to go someplace and brood/sort it out. Also I know opinions vary but would you be comfortable going to this place if you’re still pandemic cautious – is there a way to avoid too much people interaction (so I guess being packed into elevators in a big city like London or NYC is out).

    • Anon

      I get recharged spending a long weekend at the Ace Hotel in Palm Springs. It is my happy place.

    • Anonymous

      Oregon Coast
      I spent time in Yachats, coos bay and some other small towns just eating great food, taking long walks, reading a ton and it was wonderful. I went in early spring 2020 so during the pandemic and it was very comfortable

      • Anon

        I am not OP but I wish the Oregon coast were warm!! It’s so pretty. But cold.

    • Frosty

      Spa resort in the Alps, Black Forest, or Dolomites. All meals included, hiking, sauna, spa…

      • Ribena

        Yes! I had exactly this planned for a resort hotel in the Stubai valley for summer 2020. One day…!

    • Anonymous

      A few options I’ve done over the years, from a fellow DC-er: renting an airbnb on the Delaware shore; Portland, ME; Reykjavik (lots of lagoons/spas to try, and the Golden Circle is incredibly easy to do); a quieter hotel option in the Cancun area (Tulum, maybe?).

    • Anon

      Russian River, Sonoma county. Rent a house. If you’re athletic, rent one right on the River (I like Monte Rio) and kayak. But we usually stay in Cazadero near Austin Creek, under the redwoods. Tiny little town, wander out to the coast (Jenner) or into “town” (Guerneville) for lunch, get some stuff to make dinner, buy some local wine, and have a leisurely dinner at the house.

      This recharges us so much we do it twice a year – a week in the summer and a long weekend in the winter.

    • Anonymous

      Bar Harbor, ME, although I went in the off season. Hiking in Acadia for some nature time, great restaurants, small town you can explore easily in a short amount of time.

        • Anonymous

          I’m the person you’re replying to and read this as “bahahaha” and couldn’t for the life of me figure out what I said that was so funny/outrageous. :)

    • Anon

      Iceland. It’s a quick flight from DC and incredibly well set up for tourists. You can drive from town to town looking at beautiful views and doing some easy hiking. (I don’t like driving but it’s so easy there, one lane in each direction and good signage). Everyone speaks English. Food is expensive but yummy. The capital city is great for a walking tour.

      • Senior Attorney

        And if you don’t want to drive, there are plenty of companies that will drive you. Just check out Viator or Tours By Locals dot come.

    • Anon

      Savannah. I stayed at a hotel with a pool that I lounged by and spent time meandering on beautiful streets and through squares and along the river and ate delicious food and drank fun drinks (in public!). I didn’t have a car and didn’t trust Uber so did not make it to the beach, but it’s not far.

      I went last May during pandemic public health worker burnout and it was the perfect break.

    • Anon

      Going to my grandma’s house in a town of about 50 people and spending the days hanging out, doing chores, talking over meals, and walking in the pasture.

    • Anonymous

      If you are only planning to stay a few days vs. a full week, or you really just want to do nothing, consider Serenbe outside of Atlanta.

  28. Anon

    I heard from a recruiter about two weeks ago about a job I never would have realized I wanted in a location I didn’t realize I wanted to live in. But after hearing about it and doing research on the company I’m really excited about it! I talked to the recruiter on the phone, he said he would recommend me, and said he would email me some form or something so that I could give him permission to share my info. He never emailed me this form, I followed up once, and now it’s been two weeks and I think I’m being ghosted? Worth following up on more time or should I move on?

    • Anon

      Move on. Recruiters often recruit for jobs they have not been asked to recruit for in the hopes that if they flood the place with resumes, one of theirs might be picked. I have found most of my jobs through recruiters but I only work with ones I’ve come to know over the years (there are specialists for my industry) and I prefer a retained search.

    • Anon

      If you want it that much, and the recruiter ghosted you, I’d go around them and apply directly.

    • Anon

      If you can find the job posting online I’d try to follow up with the recruiter one more time. If no reply, I’d apply online.

  29. Anon

    Thanks all for the help finding a new pair of shoes for work/conferences – to refresh, I needed a flat shoe with a high vamp or some other feature that keeps it on my feet as I have a tendency to walk out of shoes. I also have somewhat wide forefeet but standard heel width. I bought three pairs in different styles to try, and I’m keeping these:

    https://www.nordstrom.com/s/4549657

    I bought a wide width as I imagined the straight part across the top cutting into the flesh of my high-instep foot, and the wide is perfect. I’m usually a EUR 41, and the 10W in these fit perfectly.

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