Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Chain Trim Chevron Knit Jacket

390 Comments

1. Elizabeth, this is a very cute jacket, and I love the red Chevron pattern. I have a herringbone jacket like this in blue and know a nice pair of dark slacks would go well, but I wonder if I could also make this red pattern work with my long blonde hair?

   I am heading into work today late b/c I came home late from Grandma Leyeh’s in Riverdale; she is happy I came to visit. She is concerned about the virus, so I washed as soon as I got in. We also went out for deli, which was so much better then in Manhattan, but took an Uber b/c she did not want to ride in a cab. She still has digestive issues, but loves the chicken soup w/Matzo balls she ordered in the deli. She keeps asking about me finding a man, but I told her I need a real man, not just another Alan, and she agreed.

   I hope Kat is getting better; I was worried when I did not see here p’osting this morning. Hopefully her Bronchitis is getting better, b/c we need her leadership also on this websight. Let’s all wish her well! Repeat after me, HIVE, please second my motion!

   Get better Kat! Get Better Kat! YAY!!!!!!!

2. I have a boss that snapped at me during a big meeting and I am having trouble getting over it. She later apologized generally at the next meeting saying that she has been very stressed lately which is true. It is not the first time she has done something like that, it has happened numerous times over the last year and I am fed up.

   She also loves to gossip (she is a pretty young/inexperienced manager and we are only a few years apart in age) and talk badly about others. In my tenure I have been informed by multiple people (leaders and peers) that she has made disparaging statements about me. In the past I have let it go because she does this to everyone and She has never given me negative feedback. On the flip side, I am paid well, she did give me a promotion, and I get to take on projects with large amounts of responsibility. Should I continue to deal or how do I know when it is time to move on?

   1. Just continue to deal. Everyone has foibles. You are getting good reviews and good opportunities, focus on that and let the rest go.

   2. It is time to look and see what is out there and at least consider moving on. Starting looking for a new job and apply for things that interest you, when you can still take your time to find the right next job. There is no harm in looking, and it is better to start before you reach BEC stage and want to quit.

      1. I agree. No harm in looking. Gossiping and and talking badly about others is not normal or professional behavior.

   3. How much influence does she have? Early in my career a high-level boss snapped at me similarly. After a year or so I realized that she never changed her opinions of people – snap at you once, you are irredeemable. She blocked my advancement and I had to leave to continue to grow.

   4. I had a boss who routinely gossiped about others and was often very negative behind people’s backs. I later lost my job and was thrown under the bus when our department was having problems. Before that happened, I had been promoted and given salary raises, so I thought I was safe. Your situation might be different. (Is it common for people to lose their jobs at your company with no notice? That’s something to watch for to asses the risk.) But I would look for another job if your life allows you to make a move. Life is too short.

   5. Similar situation at my office where a peer of mine was exactly like your boss. She had a guy in her team who was to be transferred to my team due to an upcoming realignment. He was eventually fired before the transfer but much like your case he had received promotions etc. The boss would speak badly of him to anyone and everyone but he thought they had a great working relationship as he never directly received bad feedback from her.
      Many bad bosses set up the stage to throw someone under the bus if shit hits the roof. Seems you are that person. Time to get out or transfer internally to a better manager.

3. Can someone please point me to discussions about how to tell your bosses you’re pregnant? Small office (<15), only one person has done this, and I have no idea what the policy is (because there probably isn't one).

   1. How literal is your question here — are you wondering what words to use to say “I’m pregnant” or when to say it? Or are you wondering how to ask about maternity leave?

      1. Re waiting for the 12 week scan – that’s the smart thing to do in any case, as the rate of first trimester miscarriages is high. I know I sound like an Old, but it’s very unwise IMO to be announcing to *anyone* beyond one’s partner, or perhaps a mother or sister who can be trusted not to spread the news, that you’re pregnant until you’re past that first trimester. And certainly not your work! I don’t get this new trend of telling people the minute you’ve rolled out of bed.

         For people who say “but those people will provide me emotional support in case I do have a m/c,” that’s true, but then you just tell them at the actual time you need the support.

         Signed, Saw Too Many Women spread the news too early and then face “publicness” they didn’t want when the pg did not pan out

   2. If you feel comfortable, ask the person who has been pregnant to lunch. Tell her you’re planning to tell your boss by the end of the week, tell her you want to be prepared for the conversation and ask if there is any policy in place.

   3. You might find some posts about this on the Corporette Mom’s site.

   4. I work for a small company where only 1 other person has taken maternity leave before as well! I told my direct manager around 10-11 weeks which was probably a little too early. In retrospect I should have waited for the 12w scan for more peace of mind. I asked it be kept private until I was ready to announce to the full group which was around 14ish weeks.
      Also go ahead and start collecting information or discussing maternity leave options once it is officially out in the open. In a small company, it takes a little extra planning and flexibility.

   5. I briefly worked for a VC and was the only female manager and one of 2 female staff. The other was an intern. I wasnt showing much so I told my boss at around 14-15 weeks as our travel schedules were crazy and I wanted to do this face to face. I offered to help gather some market data and draw up a policy for our office – because I didnt trust our HR to do a fair job. It all went off pretty smoothly and I timed my work so that I didnt have anything major hanging while I was away on mat leave. I even made them block a meeting room 3 times a day for me to pump when I returned.

4. Has anyone been to this place in the Hudson Valley? Especially interested in how it is for kids. Thanks.

   1. I went there for my honeymoon, no Internet so I kinda lost my mind, my husband thought it was very romantic but I couldn’t wait to leave.

      1. A+ commenting work.

         1. Thank-you! Wondered if anyone would catch it ;)

            1. Hahaha, I wondered but didn’t have time to confirm it was the right place. Excellent job.

         2. Amazing!

      2. Amazing!

   2. I’ve had several friends go with kids and really enjoy it. Another friend went for a honeymoon but only for a couple of days. I think it makes a good long weekend getaway with kids.

   3. We went for our babymoon and LOVED it. The Spa and indoor pool (kid friendly) are amazing. Lots of outdoor things to do. The food is decent and plentiful. We’re thinking about taking our kid when she’s closer to 3 or 4.

      The rooms are nothing to write home about, and pretty small, but we barely spent any time in the room so it wasn’t a big deal. The bathroom was nice.

   4. It was ok. Was there for a conference during late fall, so there were limited activities. Did some hiking. The rooms were very old fashioned but rustic, and the service people were friendly. I imagine the summer time would be a lot more fun what with camping and other activities.

5. I work in a geographic area where corona virus has been diagnosed. My employer has no plan–not for employee attendance, sanitizing procedures or restrictions on people visiting the office. Anyone in a similar situation? How are you handling matters?

   1. My stupid employer has directed that travel is NOT to be cancelled and is telling people that if they get sick, they should take unpaid FMLA.

      1. that is beyond absurd. you should leak that to the press

   2. Wow. I’m in SF and one of the thousands of people here who’s employers have gone to WFH for the rest of the month. The biggest issue is all the low wage workers dependent on a vibrant downtown who’s small businesses are suffering right now, along with events and restaurant staff. The ballet and symphony also closed. What’s everyone else doing?

      1. In Santa Clara County, employer is diligently following the Santa Clara Department of Public Health guidance.

   3. My workplace (medium-sized academic institution) just sent out a meme about handwashing.
      We’ve also canceled student travel to the worst-affected countries and requested that students and staff fill out a voluntary survey regarding their personal travel.

   4. I think that people are doing WFH and then going to the grocery store, running errands, finally going to that yoga class, and living their best life. I think it will be interesting to see how that works out. The office is probably the least germy place I am in all day.

      1. +1000 I find the WFH stuff entertaining from this perspective.

      2. WFH doesn’t mean self-quarantine, though. It hasn’t come to that yet. I’m WFH to avoid my 2.5 hour round-trip commute on public transit with disgusting people who apparently never learned how to cough into their elbows, but I’m still making quick trips to the store and things like that out of necessity. I’m avoiding movie theaters, crowds, etc., but I am still participating in one of my outdoor hobbies that is more focused on animals than people.

      3. That may depend on how you get to work. I take public transit, so I think my greatest risk is on the way to and from work.

      4. I don’t think so. People will still run their errands, but I wouldn’t add a workout class just because I suddenly have so much more time on my hands (smells of the familiar assumption that work from home is not real work). But I closely interact with a bunch of people at work everyday, plus my commute. I run maybe three errands a week, if you count grocery shopping. It’s not like I am going to large public events every day.
         Working from home cuts the people I interact with daily to a much smaller number. Couple that with people delaying optional gatherings for a few months. You can still do essential things (like buy food) and cut the amount of people you come in contact with by 80%. Nobody thinks we can stop the spread, but if you’ve read the reports from Italian hospitals in the read zone, you realize how important it is to slow the spread.

   5. My work (law firm with about 40 lawyers + maybe 20 staff) has reminded us to use our sick leave–all 6 days–and stay home if we are sick, and to wash our hands. That does not sound like a plan?

      We do not have an official work from home policy. Most of the lawyers are compensated on productivity and business generated, and they can work from wherever they want, whenever they want. For associates on base salary, it’s really just up to team leaders. Most of the support staff’s jobs aren’t conducive to working from home.

      1. +1, I have asked about our firm policy on WFH and have gotten nothing. I am WFH unless I have meetings, but the associates have asked and I haven’t heard anything!

         1. I honestly think that no one knows that to do. And if we all start working from home now, what do we do when things (possibly) get bad? I think it is a dynamic situation that may change a bunch of times before running its course.

   6. My employer (large state university) canceled business travel to a handful of the most affected countries and pulled home all students studying abroad, but business travel to most countries and personal travel to all countries is still allowed. I personally know about a dozen people traveling internationally over our spring break (next week) so I think we’re going to see an explosion of cases here after break. There are no cases in our state not linked to travel currently.

   7. My boss sent out guidance with prompting (SF). He despises WFH, but is shockingly allowing it for this. You need to send an email ASAP.

   8. A growing list since two weeks ago: large professional services firm in Korea (Metropolitan area with 0 deaths but two digit number of cases).

      Firm partners have been sending daily emails with escalating preventative measures, cumulating in all professionals to voluntarily WFH (about half actually do), and all staff placed on 2-week rotations of WFH. Restrictions on face-to-face internal meetings, and all large regular internal team meetings are cancelled. Cafeteria operates on extended lunch hours to isolate different teams in their respective eating windows. Cafeteria tables spaced apart to reduce interaction. Reminders to refrain from meeting people from orher office buildings or visiting other offices. Posters for 30-second hand washing placed on all elevators, corridors and bathrooms. Daily reminder emails to cancel all nonessential travel and to refrain from using outside restaurants to minimize exposure outside the office, and to call government hotline for drive-through or isolated testing and inform HR of any suspected case of infection. Hand sanitizers placed in every hallway. Clorox wipe down of all high frequency surfaces multiple times daily. Masks are mandatory in all communal areas including corridors, meetings, elevators, and cafeterias to prevent spread from potential non-symptomatic patients. Nonverbal greetings in elevators encouraged. Rationing of sale and distribution of masks at government level. All schools closed for 3 weeks.

      1. Inform HR of any self* suspected case of infection.

   9. I’m so thankful my job has allowed people to WFH for years. Laptops are all set up with a VPN program so we can easily log into the network and do the same work we would do if we were in the office. Even though I have a cubicle in my office building, I work with people across the country in different time zones and my boss is in a different state. So it doesn’t matter if I’m physically at work or at home.

      Non-essential business travel requires VP approval and we are supposed to self-quarantine two two weeks if we have been to one of the countries with active cases as per WHO recommendations. If we are positively diagnosed, then we are supposed to notify HR.

   10. Has your state declared a state of emergency? I think that’s a good backstop if you can play that card. I’m in Boston and Mass hasn’t for the virus, but when they do declare one for snow storms, for example, that seems to be the tipping point between “be a hero; come to work” and “stay home”. Honestly, anyone who’s not on board with WFH I think will be forced to be in a matter of time (days?) given how quickly this is spreading.

       1. I’m the OP above.
          Boss just gave a speech on how this is all mass hysteria and we need to calm down. I guess WFH is out of the question. No measures are being taken at all.

          1. What the heck?

          2. There’s an open thread over on Ask A Manager about coronavirus and some people have posted the same thing about their companies.

          3. I know it’s a cesspool, but my FB timeline, which is usually populated with mostly-sane people, is heavily on this “omg why are you freaking out, the news is sensationalizing this, just wash your hands and listen to scientists!!!!” train and it’s like, (1) I don’t know about you, but I don’t hang out w any epidemiologists on the reg,* so I’m getting my access to scientists from *the news* and (2) I hear plenty of Real Professional Scientists saying “don’t panic yet, do wash your hands, but please also try to limit interactions and at least have a plan in place for working from home and supplies in case you need to self quarantine, and btw our health care infrastructure is not at all equipped to handle what we’re about to face.”

             I’m annoyedAF that my employer won’t at least take some simple steps like encouraging managers to work out WFH options with their staff; telling managers not to require doctors notes; etc.

             *and I’m consciously not pestering my medical/public health professional friends w questions.

   11. I work for a very large U.S. based company. The guidance given to us is to wash our hands, avoid sick people, wipe things off, and use tissues. We are also a major communications provider, so the next time you are annoyed at your phone or internet company, please remember that they are also in that cohort of people providing critical services that works on holidays, snow storms, virus alerts, etc. If we don’t work, you might not be able to work at home.

6. I have a job interview this afternoon. What’s the deal with shaking hands? I guess if they offer, I shake, but if they don’t…?

   1. If they don’t offer, then you just don’t shake hands. Certainly don’t do this touching elbows or shaking ankles or bowing or any other nonsense.

   2. I would just smile and say very nice to meet you without extending my hand. If there’s any awkwardness it should be easily smoothed over with a “ha, wasn’t sure of the protocol given Corona!” and then everyone can just move on.

   3. I have one tomorrow. I’m planning to shake hands (there are no coronavirus cases in my city/barely any in my state, and I think people would find it weird to not shake) but once the interview is over, I’m going to go straight to the bathroom and wash my hands for about a minute. I work with school kids and the “go straight to the bathroom and wash hands before leaving the building” has been pretty effective for me at not catching all the stuff they spread around (and I got sick a lot before I started doing that, so it’s not just that I have an amazing immune system).

   4. There’s always the white lie of “oh I just got over a cold.”

      1. I would not do this in the Corona fear — you don’t want them wrongly worrying that you’ll expose them

         1. Yeah this reads very tone deaf to me…if you’re sick you should be at home! Of course you’re not sick, so it’s fine for you to be at work. But lying like this would backfire on me, because I’d think this employee doesn’t have any common sense and doesn’t care about exposing others.

      2. I would also not do this. Granted, I am in SF where there are cases so I realize that is different than OP but here if someone told you they have a cold and they were out in public people would NOT view you positively.

      3. I would blacklist a candidate who said that to me for poor judgment. If you’re sick during this outbreak, you do not come in, period.

   5. Every situation where people would normally shake hands over the last week has jokingly turned into an elbow bump, Vulcan salute, wave and has been used to lighten the mood. I’d go with that. I’d also be surprised if your interview stayed in person and didn’t get turned into a videocon.

      1. Same. A very formal, Important Person who I totally look up to actually exchanged really enthusiastic thumbs ups in lieu of handshakes. Think, totally professional lady giving a double thumbs up with a huge smile on her face.

         People get it. You won’t be weird.

   6. I was interviewing scholarship candidates yesterday afternoon and every one of these 18 year olds wanted to shake our hands, coming in and leaving. I felt like it would be weirdly awkward to refuse so I should hands, then washed my hands afterward. My workplace is like a petri dish anyway…

      1. Wrong. You’re the person with all the power in this situation, it’s on you to lead the way.

         1. Thanks for the helpful feedback…

            1. I agree with the previous comment. You are in a position of power, and it’s your responsibility to put a stop to the handshaking. The students probably think they must offer to shake hands.

            2. It is helpful though. You should have been the one to set the tone.

            3. Um it is helpful.

            4. It’s not helpful for me. I made the decision yesterday and I can’t unmake that decision. It might be helpful for the OP. It was also a pretty rude way of stating it.

   7. Just shake their hand, don’t touch your face, and wash your hands and sanitize all of your personal belongings that you touched after the interview. It can’t be transmitted through skin.

      1. This.

         Wash yo hands.

   8. I was at a function with lots of physicians this weekend. You just smile and everyone gets that we’re not shaking hands at the moment. Minor three seconds of awkwardness and then it’s over and everyone moves on.

   9. I attended a conference Friday and although there was some elbow bumping, many of us used the typical cheek kiss and half hug – Miami so this is our norm. Looking back it was probably foolish but is so automatic that it was done before thinking.

7. I’m scheduled to attend a DRI conference in 2 weeks – any suggestions on what to wear? Is the dress code more sheath dresses with a jacket and heals, or pants with flats and a cardigan? The brochure says business casual, but I’ve heard ABA conferences are much dressier than what the brochure says. I’m traveling with my entire office (new job for me), so I’m not sure what to expect. I’m the only woman in my office, so no one there to ask. Thanks!

   1. Either of those outfits would be just fine. I have attended lots of DRI conferences, and most people are in true business casual. I usually wear dresses that don’t require a jacket on top (so like a sheath dress with sleeves or a faux-wrap style) and heels.

      1. Same here! I also would take a big scarf or blazer or something because the rooms can get cold. You wouldn’t be out of place in either outfit you say above, or up to a less formal suit, honestly. I would not wear anything less formal than the outfits you list in your OP. Sometimes I have worn dark jeans and a nice top right before splitting on Friday, but I sat in the back and it was clear I was leaving early, and I felt a bit out of place.

         1. +1.

   2. I’d be very surprised if that conference happened.

      1. DRI med mal? I definitely don’t think you need to wear a suit but I also wouldn’t dress down any less than the pants and flats.

         1. Yes – they have sent out 2 emails so far saying the conference is still on. I’m not really looking forward to traveling, but as the newest person in the office, I’m not going to bring up the possibility of not going.

            1. so many conferences are cancelling not because the organizers want to cancel, but lots of participants are dropping out, so it’s just a matter of time. I mean plan as if you’re going, I guess, but don’t be surprised when it’s called off.

8. i work at a university and classes have been canceled this week, yet all the students live with each other on campus, eat in dining halls, etc. now all the students are going to go play around town, engaging with more people. next week they head out on spring break and will be exposed to more people and then return. i really do not understand what exactly canceling classes this week accomplishes

   1. I don’t get it either. The dorms are the main way the students spread germs. I guess canceling classes protects faculty? But I’m staff and we still have to report to work and the official university policy is that we can’t WFH, although some managers, including mine, deliberately look the other way. That’s a really nice message – faculty matter, but staff don’t? I have an underlying health condition, so as soon as the university cancels classes, I plan to get a doctor’s note requiring full-time WFH. But it seems really unfair to me to distinguish between faculty and staff like that.

   2. Canceling classes at least means that sick students and anyone with a health condition that makes them more vulnerable isn’t forced to show up to class and can isolate themselves. Ideally, students would also be maintaining social distancing and they really shouldn’t be traveling for spring break, but at least this protects the most high risk people.

      1. This is not a cruise ship where the students are stuck. Obviously some will take advantage of the situation but some of those students will go back to their hometowns rather than stay in the dorms for the week.

         1. +1. If classes are canceled for all of this week and spring break is next week, I would guess that a lot of students returned to their parent’s house for the full two weeks. Debatable whether that is good or not, but I suspect it is what happened.

            1. Agree with this. The univ likely wants to incentivize students to go home for as long as they can. Plus this buys a bit of time for the univ to figure out what to do, in case the situations worsen. And it disperses crowds, reduces the strain on the univs’s resources like healthcare, etc. I don’t think anyone has a great idea of what to do.

   3. I really don’t get what is so hard about this. Every single human-to-human interactions has some amount of risk. All of these individual risk factors add up for however many interactions we have, both as a personal risk, and collectively. So for you as an individual, when you share a space with 300 other students during the day, are in close proximity with a roommate and have dinner with 3 friends, all those risk factors add up. Now, Stanford has ordered all classes to be held online. If students live more or less normally for the rest of their day to day, that is not full isolation, but removes a large potential spread, because you remove the large gathering. Obviously, if the students choose to use their ‘free’ time to go share a movie theater with 300 strangers instead of the lecture hall (every day), you have won nothing. But why would you assume that?
      Assuming most of those students would have gone home to parents in a week (or traveled otherwise), it’s not such a difference to carry out that same travel a week earlier.

9. A question on the weekend thread reminded me of something I wanted to ask you all. Let’s talk about out of office auto-replies. Do you set them when you’re in court/traveling for work/actually unavailable during business hours? What about conferences – when you can respond to email but aren’t necessarily in front of a computer? What about personal time off? I’ve heard two schools of thought on this – never use vs. always use even if you’re away for lunch – and I’m curious to hear from this group.

   Anecdotally, ime, if I’m out on a Friday then it’s a huge deal – everyone in the world is contacting me to check in on something (likely not urgent), and once they get hold of me it’s, “well as long as we’re chatting,” followed by a dozen other requests/questions. Fielding the volume of emails/calls eats my entire day, so I’m more likely to use an OOO on Friday than any other day. And maybe this should be a separate post – but if anyone has advice on how to make Fridays less of a disaster I would love to hear it.

   1. Firm life – I agree with the prior poster that putting up an OOO for brief periods of unavailability, whether work or play, causes more annoyance than it prevents. I would only put up an OOO for a true week+ vacation.

      In house life – I put up an OOO any time I am taking a full day off, which is company culture. I also put up an OOO when I am at a conference or traveling on business but my message is different. Rather than saying “out of the office with limited access to email” I would say “I am traveling on business X date; I am checking email periodically but my response may be delayed.”

      Putting up an OOO for less than a day is counterproductive — it makes you look far more unavailable than you actually are.

      1. This is exactly my experience. It was an odd transition to make when I went in-house because the only times I used OOO at a firm was when I was having surgery or truly off the grid. I noticed my coworkers using them when on business travel once I went in-house, and was kind of surprised. I definitely do the same now, but it still feels a little weird.

      2. In-house and same. I use OOO when I am out of the office for a full day or more (whether on business travel or actual PTO), but tailor it depending on why I am out.

   2. I was surprised to read peopled the use them. At my company it’s the norm to communicate non-availability, and I use it all the time. I will use the internal v external feature more though, I’m less concerned about external people knowing about my availability.

      1. *that people don’t use

   3. I’m a big out of office user and fan.

      On vacation, I say ‘Will not have access to email.’ Personal days where I’ll do triage in the evening ‘My response time will be delayed’. Sick days where I’m actually WFH, ‘Out of the office, if your matter is time sensitive, please call Cell #’. I work in an industry where we do have some fire drills and I need people to know if I’m not going to be back to them by COB.

      I also tend to put notes on my outlook calendar that others can see – either ‘limited email access’ or even my cell #.

      1. +1 – this is the norm in my office too (there’s no stigma about unavailability and it’s used to show how you can be reached)

   4. So I have a multitude of OOO:
      1. If I am WAH on a day that I am often in the office, I put the “I am OOO in meetings today, please contact my assistant at #__” (this is common in my office).
      2. If I am traveling, same except I add a sentence about “my email response may be delayed”
      3. If I am on vacation, I add to #2 saying “my email access may be intermittent during this time” (which is often actually true)
      4. On my technical “day off” (Fridays), I do NOT use an OOO. I have trained my colleagues that I am not there on Fridays so they don’t bother me, and people from outside my office don’t usually care if they get a same-day response because it’s a Friday.

      1. Oh, and I use OOO more liberally now that I am a partner. When I was an associate I was more of the stealth OOO, so I only used OOO if I was *actually* not going to have access to email.

   5. I only use an out of office if I’m on vacation for multiple days and won’t be checking e-mail regularly. In my office an OOO is never used for being in Court or at depositions or conferences.

   6. I am a biglaw lawyer and I put up an OOO notice if I am in court, traveling, in dep prep/dep, all day client meetings, or in conferences. I may still check my email but this provides a buffer when I don’t have the time.

      IME, my colleagues and opposing counsel do the same. Opposing counsel in one of my cases has a pretty obvious strategy of using OOO notices to delay replying to our correspondence. They will put up OOO notices the entire week they have a single depositions, ignore all emails, and then send an email a week or so later starting, “As my OOO notice stated, I have been unavailable…”

   7. I only set them when I’m going on a long vacation where I actually won’t be checking email more than a couple times a day, and not during business hours. If I’m just out of the office but will still have my phone with me and looking at work email every hour or so, I don’t set an OOO, since I figure I’ll be able to triage anything that comes in.

   8. I also have a few different OOOs:
      – “I’m travelling with less email access than usual – if urgent please text me on the number below”
      – “I’m in full-day meetings/ at a conference with very limited email access – if urgent please text me on the number below”
      – “I’m in annual leave without email access, returning on x date. If urgent please contact xyz or abc person”
      – “At the end of today I leave for two weeks’ annual leave, returning on x date. If your email requires action from me before then, please call me on the number below” (I use that on the last day before any amount of holiday of a week or more).

      I don’t bother with any of them for less than one day.

   9. We use OOO internally to flag travel days when responses may be delayed, and days in court when we won’t be able to respond until after regular business hours. We also flag limited availability on vacation. Externally, we don’t communicate much.

10. My office is in a geographical areas where active corona virus has been diagnosed. My employer has not put any plan into place-not for employee attendance, working from home, sanitization procedures, restrictions on people visiting the office, or anything else. Is anyone else in a similar situation? How are you handling it?

    1. All staff who have the capability of WFH are directed to do so (protects staff who must go in), travel and conferences off

    2. Does your county have guidelines for employers? If so, send to HR and ask about implementation.

11. I’m moving to Boston to start grad school as a mid-30s woman from a warmer climate. I expect my first year to be very hectic and would like to plan ahead…

    Any advice or resources for putting together a capsule wardrobe to fit into a small closet and dresser (will likely live in a studio about 15 – 20 minutes’ walk from campus)? Bonus points if I can steer away from sweatshirts, atheleisure, and jeans as I have WAY too many of those already. I’m stocked up on Uniqlo Heattech per distant family’s advice. Any other advice for surviving 1L year (other than “don’t do it”?)

    If it matters, I’m 5’7 and somewhat apple shaped. Banana Republic 8 Regular used to fit me well when I had a straight figure but not so much since I became more apple shaped.

    1. Are you asking about a wardrobe to wear to school? I’d wear whatever clean clothes you want, no need to buy anything special. 1 suit for interviews.

       1. Yes, it’s just that I’ve been extremely fashion challenged my entire life (and my previous job had a uniform so I don’t readily have a wardrobe to start with), and my summery clothes (already going on 10 + years since college) won’t fly for long in Boston anyway, I’m guessing. I’d like to be a bit more maturely dressed and better put together, if that makes sense, without having to build and blunder through a huge wardrobe. Budget is about ~$1000 in all. I’ve received a good pair of La Canadienne boots as a Christmas gift since I mostly applied to schools in the NE.

    2. Why do you need a new wardrobe? All you need is jeans, shirts, a good coat, and weather appropriate footwear.

    3. Not sure what your budget is, but I really like Everlane’s cashmere sweaters. Cashmere is very warm. Also love Darn Tough socks for the winter.

    4. Congratulations on starting law school.

       If you haven’t signed a lease yet, reconsider the plan to be a 20 minute walk from campus. If you aren’t used to Boston winters, that might be more challenging than you expect. We get enough really, really cold days (zero degrees) for that plan to be problematic.

       Make sure you have a nice suit. For daily wear, pants plus tops is your best bet.

       Note that Massachusetts does not have a sales tax on clothes (provided each item is under $175).

    5. If you’re going to be traveling on the green line (not sure which school you’re going to), be aware that the green line stops are above ground and very annoying in the winter. Layers and a long coat are great.

       Also, you’re less likely to need this advice as someone who has a solid career in between undergrad/law school than the kids through JDs, but in terms of surviving, treating law school like a job (i.e., being on campus studying/going to class from 9-6 M-F, plus whatever I needed to do on weekends to get ready for the next week) was how I survived and did well for finals. In between classes/readings, when I still had hours to fill, I would type my notes (I took them by hand), then make an outline, and then flashcards (we had mostly closed book exams my first year for whatever reason). They were all done by the time most people started outlining, so I had time to do a bunch of practice tests and I think that really helped me. It also meant I wasn’t pulling 13 hour days in the library when finals came, which was good for my mental and physical health.

       1. +1, this applies to most grad school as well. Husband started his PhD after working for 6 years, treated it like a job (except for those late nights in lab), and all the people coming out of undergrad thought he Had It Together. (We also had a kid during that time so things fell apart a bit, but we survived.)

          On Boston winter, if you are going to have a walking commute and be here for more than a year, get a pair of good snow boots and a pair of good winter dress (ier) boots – spring is a good time to buy on sale. It’ll feel strange, but then you realize everyone else is wearing them too.

       2. Thanks for all the advice everyone!

          1. One last one – don’t shop where you live now. Shop in Boston. They will have regionally appropriate things.

             1. And no sales tax on clothing.

    6. I was in the same boat several years ago. I know they’re exhorbitantly expensive, but I found a long Canada Goose parka coat to be the best Boston winter purchase I made, because it freed me to walk around outside without feeling miserable. You might be able to achieve the same effect with a separate long down coat and long GoreTex shell with a hood. Also, consider a hip-length puffy coat as a mid-layer; having worn both, I found the Patagonia one to be significantly warmer than the Uniqlo version. A Patagonia R1 fleece pullover is also really toasty and I find versatile across all but business settings. Finally, weather-treated leather boots with good traction that you can wear with tight jeans, skirts, or under boot-cut pants will serve you well. Good luck in grad school!

    7. I have a few suggestions, as a Bostonian who is outdoors a lot and tries to stay warm! To me, these items are essentials: 1. Buy some Sporthill XC black pants from LLBean, sometimes available on Amazon and elsewhere. They are fleeced inside, windproof, water resistant, and look quite good for winter pants. Add a black fleece vest, Patagonia or Orvis are great, with a sweater underneath and you have a uniform–just add a colorful scarf. 2. Buy warm, insulated, waterproof, calf height snow boots–now is a good time to buy them on sale. 3. You might also want a pair of black riding boots, vibram sole, waterproof, light insulation–they are very useful and good looking with tights when it is slushy and you don’t want to wear pants that will get wet. Wear with a sweater or ponte dress, fleece lined leggings or tights, or a skirt. 4. You will want a warm puffer jacket with a hood. Down is the warmest, water and wind resistant, knit cuffs at the sleeves, and a double zipper. Eddie Bauer makes a great coat at a good price as does North Face and Canada Goose. Good luck!

12. Popped right out of bed at 5:15am this morning bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Ha! I thought. The time change has no hold over me! My human spirit is indomitable! I am unstoppable!

    Four hours and a venti coffee later, I am Wiped. Out. I have been staring blankly at a Word document for an hour trying to summon the willpower to type something but so far, no good.

    This might be one of those close-your-door-and-take-a-power-nap kind of days…eagerly accepting any other top tips for getting through the next few hours.

    1. LOL I’m a complete zombie today. Thinking about faking a cough so my super-paranoid workplace will send me home and I can have a nap.

    2. I’m hoping that a good night’s sleep last night helped. Yesterday was pretty brutal. Didn’t go to sleep early enough, rushed home from the guy’s in the morning to feed kitties, get my gym bag and work stuff, then to church, then noon to 5 at work, then gym. Loooooooong day.

    3. Walk or power nap. Whatever time you lose by napping will be more than compensated by increased productivity (or less non-productivity) later.

    4. I bounced out of bed for my morning workout. However, I was ready to go BACK to bed by 7 a.m.!

13. DH has been approached by family friends to be the executor of their estates recently (by two different individuals). DH is a lawyer but not a family or estate lawyer – are there any questions he should ask or anything to be mindful of before accepting? I guess people think he has his ish together. Thanks, all!

    1. Being an executor is a thankless job, and I’d turn it down unless it was my own flesh and blood.

    2. Depending on the assets of the deceased and their estate plan, it could be a very time-consuming responsibility. For example, if there is real estate to be liquidated, my understanding is the executor could be responsible for handling that process.

       1. +1

          It is extremely nice of him to consider this, but it could take quite a bit of time and he needs to decide if he will be taking a fee to do this. And it would be nice if he stated what that fee would be like (ex. a range of hourly fees, or a flat rate), so that the family friend is aware.

          1. In my state, the executor fee is a percentage of the estate, and it is defined in the statute. I’m not sure if it can be altered, but I ended up not even taking an executor fee, despite spending significant time on it, because many of the beneficiaries were not reasonable people, and I wanted to make sure the court understood I was trying to get each of them the maximum amount of money possible if they ever decided to sue me.

    3. I am a lawyer and was the executor of my cousin’s estate. I don’t ever want to be executor again, even for my parents. Things to consider include how many beneficiaries there will be, how complicated the estate is, whether there will be a lot of property to dispose of, whether the beneficiaries get along/are reasonable people. Even how easy the beneficiaries are to FIND (there were a few out-of-state beneficiaries in my situation that were difficult to locate and get paperwork from).

    4. It absolutely sucks, but also… it’s a fact of life and if he doesn’t who will? We (DH) were executor for FIL, though we blocked and tackled it as a team. There was a surviving spouse so it was arguably easy, though it was possibly the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. That said, I would take it on if asked of a close family member, but not someone who is truly not in my inner-inner circle. The information we were privy to and decisions we had to weigh as executor were deeply personal and to have an unrelated party work through the intimate details of FIL’s finances – which were very, very bad, and no one else knew that… including MIL – I just can’t imagine that kind of information being handled by anyone that wasn’t a true confidant of FIL.

    5. I practice in this area and can only second all the responses. This is a time-consuming, mostly thankless job and will expose the person to criticism, family drama, etc. If the executor hires a lawyer to do the work, which would be a fair way to handle it, they’ll be criticized for spending the estate’s money. Taking a fee is reasonable but not commonly done by individuals. Personally, I would only agree to do this for an immediate family member or very close friend who did not have a better option to serve (such as a spouse or adult child). Statutory fees are always optional–an executor is allowed but not obligated to charge them.

    6. This could be awkward depending on the relationship, but if I were him, I wouldn’t take it unless the person making the request would assure me that there wouldn’t be any surprises in the estate plan that he has not discussed with the beneficiaries, i.e., unequal distributions between children, or favoring one sibling over another. Obviously the person can always change their will, but I’d have the request out there. It’s one thing to deal with the paperwork (if he is inclined to deal with that), it’s another to end up with a full-fledged family feud on your hands.

    7. I agreed to be an executor for an estate. The will states very clearly I get paid for my efforts (a percentage of the estate’s value). I am dreading the actual work, but it will be a job I will be paid for. I would not take on this task otherwise.
       My own estate plan also pays the executor for their time. And everything is spelled out, though I will say, in light of Anon at 11:33am comments, I have not informed everyone in and out of the will exactly what my disbursement plans are.
       So I would ask if the will has a no contest clause (I hear that’s a viable thing people use to quell infighting) and if there’s payment out of the estate for executor – EVEN IF the executors finds and hires a lawyer, an estate property sales service, etc. Outsourcing may be the right answer but the executor is still responsible for managing and finishing up the project.

    8. My husband did this for my mom’s estate. It was like he had a second job for the better part of a year. Just know what you’re getting into.

       1. FYI my husband also kept messing up and calling himself the executioner. It would have been kind of scary had my mom not already died.

    9. I don’t practice in this area, but am my parents’ executor. Our family is tiny – no cousins, no living grandparents, three living siblings between both of my parents, and no one else. There’s no way I would have done it otherwise. Depending on what period of life I am in, I still might hire a lawyer – my sister and I will have to agree to spend the money, but I don’t think it will be an issue. I would not do it for anyone else.

14. This is interesting and informative: https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/fdf5fq/we_are_a_team_of_medical_experts_following
    One of the answers mentions that 60% of the US has an underlying health condition. So while it’s smart for everybody to take precautions (to help other people if nothing else) you don’t need to be panicking just because you have a health condition. You’re in the majority, not the minority, and the vast majority of people (especially younger people) with underlying health conditions will be fine.

    1. I wish that there were more/better information about risks specific to pregnancy. I’m 23 weeks pregnant and have to travel frequently for hearings/depositions. The litigation bro partners in my office are all making fun of anyone with concerns about travel at the moment, and it’s very hard to push back on that as a female, pregnant, senior associate without looking like I’m not committed to my clients. If there were concrete data one way or the other, I’d either feel better about the travel or could point to something specific to justify my concerns.

       1. 12 weeks pregnant here. The NYTimes had an article that wasn’t super comforting. Upshot is that we just don’t know what corona will do to women who contract it in early pregnancy, because it’s just too new, although women who contracted it later in pregnancy seemed to be OK (as did their babies).
          What I really didn’t like about it was all the steps they took to ensure that babies wouldn’t contract it from their infected mothers. C-section births, separating mothers from newborns, and encouraging pumping and dumping. While of course the ultimate goal is making sure everyone is healthy, none of that fits into my birth plan. (And this is my third kid, and I’m well aware birth plans can go awry for a variety of reasons).
          https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/03/health/coronavirus-pregnant-women-babies.html

          1. OP Here: I saw that NYT piece, too. I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s too early for solid data and a big enough sample size to adequately assess the risks or understand the impact of/on pregnancy.

       2. Another pregnant person here (about 20 w). I wouldn’t be worried much about this virus at all if I weren’t pregnant. There’s just too much unknown at this point, though the very small amount of evidence seems to suggest it doesn’t dramatically cause a risk in birth defects, stillbirth, etc. I have an appointment this week so i plan to ask my OB more then. I doubt they have much more information than I can see on the CDCs website, but at least so I’m prepared if myself or my husband became infected. I imagine it’s very similar to the procedure they follow if you get the standard flu during pregnancy + quarantining, at least until they have more information.

       3. I’m 24w4d and my OB has advised not traveling by plane for the duration of my pregnancy, not because of risks to the baby but because pregnancy may increase the risk of a severe infection if I got it (and bc of the precautions that would be necessary if I had it when delivering). She is also advising pregnant patients to ask family members to minimize plane travel if possible, and that we avoid elective medical visits (basically, only prenatal care and emergencies, if possible, and if a kid is sick it’s preferable that your partner take the kid to the doctor, not you) and you or your partner visiting people who are hospitalized.

          1. My last OB visit,my regular doctor was at a conference and so I saw one of her colleagues. When I asked travel-related questions her two answers were essentially “you know as much as I know” and “it all depends on your risk tolerance,” neither of which is particularly helpful. If I told my clients “use your judgment” in response to a direct request for advice, I’d be fired immediately!

    2. I wouldn’t go down the hole of that subreddit, although that particular posting is pretty good. It is full of fear mongering and false reports. To be very well informed, the sub r/covid19 is very helpful to understand what is going on from a scientific point of view. It has all the latest news on disease mitigation, medicinal and vaccination progress, etc.

    3. Your interpretation is exactly the opposite of what the expert actually said:

       ” Sixty percent of adults in the U.S. have an underlying condition, which puts them at higher risk of infection and severity of infection.”

    4. My issue is that I have a primary immune deficiency and it’s very, very hard to interpret my risk. It technically makes me “high risk,” but I’m in active treatment and it’s a rare condition that is not specifically highlighted in any of the epidemiological data we’ve seen so far. Anyone else with a PI hear anything useful from their docs? So far, I’m just working from home, washing hands, etc.

15. Anyone who uses Catwalk Curls
    Rock Defining Serum have an alternative they like? I find the amplifier makes my curls too tight and bouncy and it looks like the defining serum is discontinued.

16. Period / menopause question. For most of my adult life my cycle has been every 28-32 days. About a year ago it started getting earlier and earlier to the point that now it is every 21 days. This is especially annoying because I get a migraine every time. I’ll discuss it with my doctor but I’m curious – is this an early menopause thing? I’m 38.

    1. I think it’s a perimenopause thing. Your body is shortening your cycle to pump out the remaining eggs. When did your mom go through menopause? That’s usually the best guideline for roughly when you will.

    2. Most likely it is. My cycle went from fairly regular to not regular at all. Less time between periods and shorter periods came first for me. This is also the phase where I started having night sweats (fun!) and would cry at the drop of a hat (fun for DH!). Then skipped periods, long periods, short periods, 12 days between periods – it was just nuts for the couple of years that this phase lasted. On a brighter note, having come out the other side of it, I’m finding that no periods is lovely, and my emotions have leveled to a state that is better than before peri menopause.

       1. What the OP describes is how perimenopause started for me too. Down to the frustration with an increase in migraines due to less time between periods. Thanks Formerly Lilly for the reminder that there is light at the end of the long, sweaty, sleepless, emotionally random, unpredictable tunnel.

    3. I don’t know, but I’ve had the same thing – went from 26-30 days to 22-26 now about 3 years ago. Just turned 41.

    4. It’s probably a pre-menopause thing.
       I’m 37 and my last three cycles were 25, 21 and 31 days after a decade of it being 28-30 day clockwork.

       It sucks.

    5. That happened to me too. I went from 4-5 weeks to 2-3 weeks for a few years, then 2-3 weeks but sometimes I’d stop for a month or two (and get totally paranoid I was pregnant), then the month or two gaps got longer, like 4-5 month gaps, then alllmost menopause, an 11 month gap, then finally a few months after that I was done for good around age 53.

       1. My very last period occurred about 7 months after the previous one, which had been months after the one before. I thought I was done. Then the last one showed up when I was an hour from home driving a week old brand new car with cream colored leather seats. Because it was new it hadn’t yet accumulated my usual car interior detritus so there wasn’t a random coat or something to sit on, and I finally remembered a catalog in my purse and sat on that and drove directly home. Fun times. I was 54 for that last one, and would guess the noticeable peri menopause started at about age 48. Here’s my for-what-it’s-worth PSA: the more I cut out dairy and meat, the less symptoms I had in terms of hot flashes, night sweats, and mood swings. Strict or near strict vegan eating left me pretty much without any problems except an irregular cycle.

17. Just out from Southwest Airlines:

    To our valued Customers,

    There is no higher priority to our entire Southwest Family than the Safety of our Customers and Employees. We are in close communication with medical professionals, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the World Health Organization (WHO), government agencies, and internal teams to stay on top of this evolving situation. According to the most recent information from the CDC, for most people, the immediate risk of being exposed to the virus that causes COVID-19 is thought to be low.

    We want you to feel confident when traveling with Southwest Airlines. As a result, we have enhanced some of our cleaning procedures in the interest of our Customers’ and Employees’ health and safety.

    Aircraft Cleaning: We spend between 6-7 hours cleaning each aircraft every night, and, as of March 4, 2020, we have enhanced our overnight cleaning procedures. Typically, we use an EPA approved, hospital-grade disinfectant in the lavatories and an interior cleaner in the cabin. Now, we are expanding the use of the hospital-grade disinfectant throughout the aircraft, and it will be used in the cabin, on elements in the flight deck, and in the lavatory. This goes beyond the standard CDC guidelines.

    Also, we equip each of our aircraft with a HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air) filter, which filters out recirculated air onboard each plane to remove airborne particles. HEPA filters are also used in hospitals to provide patients with clean air.

    To learn more about our enhanced aircraft cleaning procedures, visit our blog for a detailed overview, along with a video and photos of the process.

    1. I flew Southwest yesterday. The flight attendants went around before we took off to ask everyone to throw their Clorox wipes in the garbage bag they carried around rather than shoving them in the seat back. Many, many people had them. I only saw a few masks.

       1. Ha! I flew last week and some dude in the middle seat next to me scrubbed down his seat pocket outside and tray and put the wipe inside the seat pocket :(

    2. That’s a good start, but they ought to disinfect the plane between flights. Planes turning 2 or 3 times a day still could expose a lot of people.

       1. They do not have enough time. It takes hours to do so.

          1. Well, I know, but they should. It’s hardly gold-star territory to clean daily. There will be fewer flights at some point as demand drops. Hopefully they will add more time in between flights then.

             1. Yes but in the meantime, just wash hands early / often and stop with the face-touching.

    3. Makes you wonder how they were cleaning the lavatory before.

       1. …did you read the whole message?

          “Typically, we use an EPA approved, hospital-grade disinfectant in the lavatories and an interior cleaner in the cabin.”

    4. Yeah all the major airlines sent these email over the weekend. I got similar messages from Delta and United.

    5. I don’t understand the point of this post. All airlines are sending around those emails, since they are worried about the drop in traffic.

       1. +1 This is about marketing for the airline, not passenger health.

18. 1) I think today’s pick would look lovely on my mom, who is nearing 80.

    2) What are the chances my scheduled trip to Spain in mid-April is going to happen?

    1. 1. i laughed outloud – agree.
       2. sadly….. if you go it will be with a layer of anxiety “should I be doing this?” and won’t be as enjoyable.

       1. Ehh, she’s only going to let it ruin her trip if she lets it.

    2. I have a similarly scheduled trip to Mexico and I am so anxious about it, and considering not going even though I may not be able to get my money back.

    3. Asking the same question for a long-scheduled trip to Disneyland in mid-April for a friend’s milestone party…

    4. 1. Agreed
       2. We’re scheduled to take a trip to France in late May. Don’t have great expectations that it’ll pan out.

    5. I just bought £550 of train tickets for a journey to Austria in June. At least now if official advice changes I’ll get it back through my travel insurers….

    6. 1) My (very stylish) grandma loved her some Misook.
       2) No input but commiseration :(

       1. My MIL likes Misook as well. Just like St John, some of the jackets can be a bit mature. However, the base pieces like tanks and skirts are a great alternative to MMLF, because they are so well made. And the jackets without military trim also work well.

          Europe is being hard hit, because of the extent of travel between countries.

19. New poll out showing Trump vs. Biden and Trump vs. Sanders in battleground Rust Belt states. Biden outperforms Sanders in all.

    https://firehousestrategies.com/analysis/march_battleground_survey/

    1. Yes indeed, that’s what the polls (and common sense) have been showing all along. Hence why Biden cleaned up on Super Tuesday, esp. with voters who cite “can defeat Trump” as their highest priority for choosing their candidate.

    2. I was a Warren supporter, but between Biden and Sanders, I’ll vote Biden. Not just for electability either. I think he has a shot at being a more effective president.

       1. I was Biden from the beginning because I’m a moderate Dem, but I love Warren personally and would have been so happy to vote for her if she’d gotten the nomination. I think many people choose based on a candidate’s personality as much as policy, and Biden and Warren have a lot in common on the empathy/fundamental decency front. I’ve heard a lot of people say Warren is the kindest politician they’ve ever met, which is also something you hear about Biden. I’m just so exhausted by Trump and can’t take 4 more years of anger and self-centeredness. I want kindness to return to the presidency!

          1. I think people’s perceptions of things like anger, kindness, and apparent decency must vary a lot. Biden has been truly inconsiderate with the touching, and the way Warren laid into Bloomberg at the debate seemed angry and somewhat unreasonable to me. On the other hand, they definitely employ more social niceties than say Bloomberg. I would rather see empathy and decency expressed in policy though (and would happily vote for a mean NYer with the right policies), so I guess I’m not a personality voter to begin with.

20. My husband and I (childless) have rented a house at the beach for a week. We would like to invite a couple to join us for a few days. They have an elementary-school age child who is very sweet and exhibits age-appropriate behavior. However, I do not want the child to come with the parents to the house. We have traveled with them and the child before, and our days were taken up with child-friendly activities like petting zoos and splash pads, and nights we stayed in since we didn’t have/know a babysitter in the area. This is my only vacation this summer, and I don’t want to spend it doing activities that entertain the child but bore me.

    Parents, what is the nicest way to say “we’d love to have the two of you visit us but please make arrangements for your child, and if you can’t/won’t be apart from him, that’s ok, we’ll see you back in town”? Would you be terribly offended?

    1. If this post is actually real, which I suspect it is not, pick childless friends to invite.

    2. Honestly, I’d probably be offended and not go. How come you went to the splash pads etc if you’re not interested? When we vacation with childless friends, we definitely don’t spend all day/evening together. We also get out more by doing a ‘girls night’ dinner and a ‘guys night’ dinner which we enjoy as I can have dinner with DH everyday so it was fun to do a girls night thing.

       If you think they’d be cool with it, I’d present it as an adults only thing instead of a ‘please don’t bring your kid’ thing. Like “We’re renting xyz beach house and would love it if
       you and Bob could join us. Thinking adults only this time so we can go windsurfing and out for dinner at abc place.”

    3. Hey, we are going to ABC location for XYZ dates? Care to join us for a kid-free break? Then wait for their answer.

       1. This wording is fine if you really want to ask. I expect that they will say no.

          Do you have other friends without kids who you could ask? Seems like a much better plan.

       2. This is probably a “know your friend” situation. We just went on a vacation w/ friends that are parents who left their kiddo at home w/ the grandparents. Other friends of ours would never dream of doing that.

    4. Why are the only two options “you do all the kid stuff” or “they leave the kid at home”?

       On similar trips – we also do not have children but siblings do – the parents go off and do Kid Activities as a smaller family group, while those of us without kids chill at the beach, and then everyone is back together for casual dinners. Some days we all just hang at the beach or pool as a group so it’s not like non-parents don’t get to see or play with the kids at all.

    5. Ummm…. you can’t?

       Sounds like the child is old enough to understand they would be purposefully being left behind, as they have traveled with you in the past. A beach weekend is really wonderful for a child, and they will find out of course.

       You could ask your friend separately, would you ever take a vacation/break separate from your child? And not ask them for a specific trip until you know how they feel.

       1. This is what would keep me from going. My kid, having been invited before, would totally get that they were not invited this time and be hurt by that. If I didn’t go, then kid avoids being hurt that friends specifically excluded them. A kid can understand they weren’t invited but don’t really get why adults want to do adults only things so I think the kid would take it as the friends didn’t like them.

       2. Why is this such a problem these days? As children, my sister and I were “purposefully left behind” during adult vacations and it was no big deal. Mom and dad went off to have fun, left us with family or close friends, and always brought fun presents back. It wasn’t uncommon at the time. I’m baffled by the current generation of parents who won’t leave their kids home ever.

          1. Did both of your parents work? My mom was a SAHM, so of course she needed a break. I work, so I want to spend my vacation with my kid.

             1. I work, so I need a break from both my job and my kid at times.

          2. My parents did this as well. Staying overnight with friends or grandparents was common, not special.

             1. My maternal relatives live in the same small town with both sets of grandparents. We live in a big city with no local family. My cousins could do this; I really can’t, especially if it involves any school days (and don’t get me started on weekend sitting rates of competent adult sitters).

          3. It’s not that we won’t leave our kids home ever, it’s that unlike the previous generation of selfish-a** boomer parents, we actually think about how our actions affect our kids and how kids might feel if X or Y happens to them. It’s called empathy, because children are not miniature not-very-smart adults; they are intelligent independent humans in their own right who are affected by the choices their parents make. I’m genuinely sorry your parents didn’t take you or your sibling into account when they planned their lives (my parents didn’t account for my brother and I either).

             1. You’re not actually suggesting that parents vacationing without their kids is tantamount to child abuse, are you?

             2. Wait, what? My parents weren’t perfect, but the fact that they maintained their identities as individuals/a couple once they had kids set a great example and showed that there were other ways to be beyond the parents-who-only-live-for-their-children types. There’s no one best way to be a family.

             3. “You’re not actually suggesting that parents vacationing without their kids is tantamount to child abuse, are you?”
                No, and there’s nothing in my post to suggest that, but hey! Gold star to you for making an inflammatory statement and trying to create drama where there isn’t any. Slow day at work, huh?

             4. You sound delightful.

             5. Wow. There’s definitely a middle ground between parents not ever taking their children into account and parents not revolving their lives COMPLETELY around their children. It’s healthy for kids to learn that their parents are actual people who have lives separate from being parents. Being occasionally disappointed is also healthy.

             6. Umm what? I am actually really thankful that my parents had lives outside of just me and my siblings and often did things without us. It taught us that we were not the center of the universe, that our parents were full humans not *just* mom and dad and that sometimes you don’t get invited to/get to do everything. Were there times when I was sad I didn’t get invited to stuff my parents went to without me? Of course, but my parents helped talk me through it. And it made it a lot less painful when I got left out of things in middle school and high school. I’m also really thankful that my parents are still happily married and I credit a huge part of that to them continuing to prioritize their relationship during intense parenting years.

             7. What? Your reply cannot be real.

          4. I would love to leave my child while I go on vacation. However, I would be paying for childcare the entire time I am away. I do not have the resources right now to hire someone to care for him the entire time I am away.

             1. Right? The cost of childcare for that would probably equal the cost of my vacation.

             2. Also if I were leaving my kid to go behind on vacation, I’d want to do something fabulous like go on a safari, not go to a beach house. Beach house vacations are things you can do WITH your kid.

          5. Wow! Judge much? People are saying that their kid would be hurt because the kid has been invited on this specific vacation before and is now uninvited, not because they never take kid-free vacations. And your parents were lucky that they had family and friends who could watch you and that you didn’t have medical issues (e.g. autism) that would make it difficult for them to be away.

             DH and I get one weekend a year. That’s about as much continuous childcare as my parents can manage. We are definitely going to use that on some kind of vacation that we can’t do with kids – wine tour in Napa or backcountry skiing in Colorado. I’m not using that on a beach vacation that I could easily include the kids for.

             Grandparents today are typically much older than grandparents in the 1980s and 1990s. My grandma was 52 when I was born. DH’s mom was 72 when I had our first kid. She has never been able to watch them over a few days. In addition to grandparent issues, it is much less common to have local aunts/uncles who can watch the kids. Neither DH nor I have local siblings. Neither do either of my best friends. And those friends are not local to me either. For every parent that I know, anything more than a weekend is a rare anniversary trip – not a yearly event and most people don’t even have support to get the yearly weekend that DH and I get.

             1. “Grandparents today are typically much older than grandparents in the 1980s and 1990s. My grandma was 52 when I was born. DH’s mom was 72 when I had our first kid.”

                This gets lost so many times in these discussions. My grandma was 50 when I was born and had had her last child at 42, so she still had kids at home when I came along and adding me to the mix overnight or for a weekend was not a big deal. My friend just had a baby; her parents just turned 70 and 72. They’re never going to be able to keep the kid for “a few days,” they just don’t have it in them.

             2. My parents are 73 and 75 and still keep our kids for a week at a time when we travel. It’s true that age is a factor, but please don’t generalize that to all 70-somethings aren’t fit enough to watch young grandkids. Lots of them are very spry!

             3. Right. DH’s parents live 1.5 miles from us, but they are 71-year-olds who have a hard time keeping up with the kids for an evening, let alone several days in a row. Is every 71-year-old that way? Nope, they’re not, but this is our reality. The most natural caregivers for our kids are barely mobile and have health issues. We feel guilty asking them to watch the kids for a date night.

                My parents are 71 and 65. They’re not really up for it, either. My mom is more than my dad, but my dad just cannot handle the activity and commotion that even well-behaved kids bring. (He was like this as a parent but it’s only gotten worse with age.)

                I would LOVE to go on a kid-free couples vacation, but it’s not happening anytime soon. Or ever. :(

             4. This. Maybe its geography, but grandparents where I live now are SO much younger than mine were when I came along. That said, most of the 75 year olds I know now could walk/run/bike circles around my grandparents when they were that age. Tl;dr, I guess I’ve had the opposite experience.

          6. This.
             I don’t see any harm in asking.

          7. Yeah, the reactions here seem… nuts to me. I take my son on trips with me sometimes. Other times, I go on a vacation with friends or solo that does not include him. He is very aware that I’m going somewhere without him and… it’s fine. He gets to go on plenty of adventures with me. That doesn’t mean my long weekend in California visiting friends MUST include him.

             OP- Let your friends know that you’ve rented the house and would love to have them join you for a grown ups only weekend. If they think this will traumatize their child, they’ll say no. But this would never in a million years cross my mind as something to be offended over.

       3. It’s okay for children to be disappointed though. It’s part of learning and growing.

          1. There’s a difference between disappointing someone and needlessly hurting someone. I teach my kids not to exclude others, and would be hurt at them being excluded from this kind of trip, particularly when we’d all taken a trip with the same people before and it went well.

             Fwiw, my husband and I travel pretty regularly (once or twice per year) without our kids. But our kids view this as a reward, not a punishment, because they spend quality time with their cherished out of state grandparents, and when they’ve asked about why they don’t come, we’ve been honest that they wouldn’t be interested in what we do on these trips (long meals in fancy restaurants, hours spent in museums, etc). They’d be devastated if we’d all traveled to the beach with Couple X and had a great time, and then the next year their dad and I informed them that we were going back to the beach with Couple X but this time they couldn’t come. I would never do that to them.

             1. Exactly this. It’s not about parents traveling without kids. It’s about specifically excluding someone who will be hurt by that.

             2. I disagree – it is not the “same” trip. OP pretty expressly wants to make this trip different than the previous trip. Just because you were invited to something once doesn’t mean you must be invited to all future similar events? That’d be like saying because parents took their kids to their favorite restaurant that it’s mean for them to go there on a date night by themselves when kid knows they were being specifically excluded

          2. This is an astoundingly callous viewpoint. I’m sorry you were not shown compassion as a child, apparently.

             1. No, it’s really not. If your children don’t learn how to handle disappointment during low stakes events during childhood, they will not handle the adult world well.

             2. I don’t know why it’s callous to say that disappointment is a part of life? I’d much rather my kids learn that at a younger age when I can help talk them through it. I really really really don’t want the first time my kid feels the sting of not being invited to something to be when she’s in middle or high school and may not really want to talk to mom about it.

    6. Do you know they travel without their child? Most people I know don’t regularly, either because they don’t want to, or they don’t have childcare (this basically requires a nanny willing to work overtime, or a local grandparent who is healthy and active enough to watch the child – many people don’t have those things). I don’t know that I’d be offended, but it would be feel…out of touch? to me if someone asked me to do that, because I don’t really travel without my kid except on vary rare occasions (generally alone with my husband for milestone anniversaries) and all my friends know that. And it also feels a little weird to me to un-invite a kid to a beach house, which is normally such a family-friendly thing. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if someone asked me to go to the Maldives and specified it was adults only, I would completely understand. I wouldn’t be able to go, but I would understand why they made it clear my kid wasn’t invited. But a beach house in the US? I don’t know. I would kind of side-eye it personally.

       1. Yeah, I would understand not wanting to have kids along for a wine trip/girls weekend in Paris/milestone vacation/etc., but a beach vacation at a rental house is kind of the ideal family with kids trip. I think it would be easier to just not invite them quite frankly and pick another childless couple to go with.

          1. This. I don’t mind leaving my kid behind sometimes, but I’m not going to spend one of my kid-free vacations in a kid-friendly environment. If I’m going to the trouble and expense of having a nanny keep my child for the week, I’m going to spend that week in a place my child would not enjoy (Napa, Vegas, etc.)

             1. This. For me, it is just so, so much easier to bring my particular kids than to find care for them (and by care, I mean a person who is there so DSS doesn’t arrest me; they don’t really need care b/c they are older just too young to be left alone). Last weekend sitter we had lined up flaked at the last minute b/c “her dog got sick.” I suspect that she just got a better offer / had boyfriend propose a trip but we no longer use her once we had to rebook our trip and add a room to it at the last minute.

    7. I wouldn’t be offended, but I wouldn’t be able to accommodate. Be upfront and really clear that the invitation is for a grown-ups only couple of days. And tell them that you understand if it’s just not do-able.

       1. Right. I wouldn’t be offended at all, but the idea is a no-go for us, like it can’t happen. We don’t have local grandparents to provide care and sending a kid to stay with family friends or a friend’s family (it’s different) for more than one night is a big ask, and one honestly we wouldn’t make of anyone we knew.

    8. “If you’d like join us for a few adult-only days, we’d love to have you.” Accept that it may not work logistically for them, but they shouldn’t be offended that you aren’t inviting a child on YOUR vacation.

    9. Omg are you out of your mind? Just don’t invite them. There’s no way to suggest they leave a kid home from a beach vacation. You don’t want kid, fine. Then you also don’t get parents.

       1. Disagree. I love my kids. I also love doing things with other adults without them.

    10. I would be terribly offended, and I’m not sensitive to this stuff. Beach house is exactly where I’d expect to bring my kid – you can’t invite them and not kid. Just don’t even reach out.

    11. I think you see them in your city. The only neutral thing I can think of is “let me know if kiddo is going away to camp any this summer. we are getting a beach house and would love to host you/spouse for a bit if you are free when we go.”

        I’m not so much offended, but alarmed at the expense of arranging for several overnights of care for my kid (we have no local family, so flying in a grandparent can be pricey and only one set of grandparents is really fit for duty now). Finding a good overnight sitter for a kid for an away trip is so expensive (for a good one) that it is just not worth the $$$ for us and I’d rather just bring my kids (middle-school aged) with us to even expensive restaurants and even with the expense of having a separate room for them (so beach place with one more bedroom than you may have). They are great and not remotely needy (except for rides places), but I suspect for some people even their presence grates.

        1. This is the best wording if you want to invite them.

    12. In the abstract, I don’t know that it’s offensive. But if my whole family traveled with friends one year, and then the friends asked us to travel again to the same place next year but told us we couldn’t bring our kid, yes I would be deeply offended and hurt and I would assume (not unreasonably) that they weren’t happy with my kid’s behavior last year, and didn’t really enjoy being around my kid. This feels personal in a way that a blanket “sorry, we only take adults-only vacations!” doesn’t.

        1. Agree

        2. That’s exactly how I’d take it. You’ve traveled with my family already and decided that you’re not that into my kid.

           And FWIW, I would love love love to take an adults’ only vacation but it’s not in the cards. We don’t have grandparents who are willing or even able to do that for us, and we don’t have that kind of relationship with any date-night sitter. I would not be willing to ask a family friend — that’s just too big an ask for anything that isn’t an emergency? So who does that leave us with?

        3. Yeah, this. Which, based on the OP’s post, is pretty much the situation.

    13. Honestly I wouldn’t ask mostly because I wouldn’t want to go to the beach without my kid. Unless these people have a huge family network who often take the kid overnight, it’s not worth the hassle of getting someone to stay with the kid for what seems like kind of a low key vacation. If I’m going to do something with no kids it would need to be pretty amazing or at least have some kind of adult-only theme to it.

        1. This is our first year of having kids to sleep away camp. I wouldn’t take a vacation without them this year just so we’re reachable if something goes wrong (coronavirus, sudden onset of bedwetting, gi bug, etc.) but I might be open to planning something next year as long as it is ~ 2 hours away, even if just for a long weekend.

    14. I would just say, hey, we’re doing such and such, would you care to join us for a few days? We’re hoping to keep it adults only. Totally understand if that doesn’t work!

        I have 2 littleish kids. While I agree with a lot of the other posters that for us personally we would likely not make it, as if we are going to go to the enormous hassle/using a lot of grandparent capital of doing a trip sans kids it is going to be doing something where it is explicitly difficult to bring kids for (epic ski trip, trip revolved solely around wine tasting etc.) I’m a little surprised at the amount of people saying they would be offended or mad. You can always just say, no, right? I would prefer to at least be asked then be dropped on assumption & always wonder what we did. You might be surprised, maybe they have been itching for an adult getaway but the thought of organizing it themselves has seemed like too much. I also would not worry about offending the kid. IMHO it is perfectly acceptable to explain to your kids that you are having an adults only trip. (Yes, even if it is somewhere they have been before).

        1. “I’m a little surprised at the amount of people saying they would be offended or mad. ”

           I think it’s because they invited the kid previously and are now specifically not inviting the kid which makes it seem like the kid was unpleasant to have along, and that kinda offends many parents.

           1. It’s offensive because it is a beach vacation, not a bachelor party.

           2. To be clear, we didn’t invite them before. We planned a vacation with them, and both couples chose the house and split costs. Now, my husband and I have rented and paid for a house, and would like to host them for a few days.

              1. To me, this is a distinction without a difference. While it’s nice you are paying, would you say “bring the kid” if they offered to pay for their housing? No, because it’s the kid, not who is paying, that’s the issue.

                 But I think you should invite them using the language others have suggested, be prepared for them to say no, and also be prepared for the friendship to change if your feelings will come as a surprise to them.

           3. I still think that is an odd way of looking at it. This isn’t like you traveled with 3 adult friends before and now you want to leave one out which clearly states you didn’t like that 3rd person as a person.
              Travelling with a kid – even an older, very pleasant one – inherently is a different kind of trip than travelling without. There ARE just parts of it that are unpleasant or extremely limiting on a variety of levels. I love travelling with my kids, but they are my kids and even then there are frustrating parts of it & I am happy to take my rare trip without them, so I can’t imagine being offended that someone else that doesn’t have the same sort of love for my kids that I do does not want to travel with them. I get that the couple invited them before, but I also think that a lot of things related to kids are hard to fully appreciate until you have experienced it, so as a parent I would totally understand that they at least tried it once, then clearly found there were too many aspects to it they didn’t like (which is fair! There are aspects to travelling with kids that if you don’t need to deal with are not great!) and now want to change back. It’s not like telling an adult you don’t like their personality. It’s just a preference to want to do adult things that no matter how charming, a kid can’t do. Because they tried it once they shouldn’t now be locked in to always inviting the entire family unit.
              And again, the parents can always just say no.

              1. You understand the difference but would a kid? They would totally feel like they are being left out because OP didn’t like them. People are reacting to OP’s total indifference to how the kid would feel about it. Like she didn’t think to ask what she says to the kid the next time she sees the kid so the kid isn’t hurt by being left out.

              2. I just personally am totally okay with telling my kids a that a certain trip trip is for adults only. And my kids are elementary aged. I am willing to explain to them why, about the physical activities etc. that we want to do that they can’t if need be. My kids don’t consider my friends their friends, they consider them grown ups that we are friends with. I would not consider it necessary to have my friends present any sort of explanation. More importantly, IF we took our friends up on the trip it is ultimately our decision that we chose to do a trip without the kids so it would be more on us to explain why & honestly whether our friends wanted it that way or not would probably not even matter in the conversations, b/c it’s not like the friends are forcing the parents to take this trip. They are literally *just* asking. If a parent feels like that would hurt their child & want to limit what they do accordingly, that is their prerogative & that is where the ability to simply say no comes in. But we don’t all feel that way, so it goes back to, I think she can still ask.

        2. Thank you! The same people saying “I’m offended you don’t want to include my child on your vacation, how can you even ask” are the same ones complaining that their single friends dropped them when they had a kid. Your child is not their friend you are. If you get offended at even being ASKED to go on an adult vacation or other activity, yeah, expect to be left out all the time – who has time for a friend you have to tip toe around with simple questions like this?

           1. I don’t want to be friends with a smug, selfish jerk who would presume to suggest that I waste my limited PTO to dump my kid with a babysitter for a week and be part of her entourage during her beach vacation, instead of going on my own vacation with my own family. I am happy to leave the kid at home with my spouse for a girls’ night out, but I am not going to sacrifice my PTO for someone as obnoxiously self-involved as OP.

              1. We’re adults and this is supposed to be a civilized forum, please cool it with the name calling. Also, you seem to have taken this way too personally. Why is it a crime to ask? How does saying, “hey want to go on an adults only beach vacay for the weekend” make any presumptions or being smug? How do they know you have limited PTO or don’t have family that would love to take the kids for a few days? They don’t.
                 Idk when someone calls another “smug” for simply making a different life choice (in this case no kids) it screems “I regret my choices”. Don’t be mad at OP because you have made different choices in life. Just say “not for me, good for you” and move on.

              2. +1

           2. +1000

           3. Yes. Love my kids and they are a huge part of my world. But I am still me & the entire world doesn’t revolve around them.

    15. I wouldn’t ask unless you know they regularly do weekends away from their child and this would be no big deal for them and their caretakers. I have a 4-year-old, and I wouldn’t be offended about the idea of a child-free weekend (it sounds nice), but I wouldn’t be able to get childcare to cover it.

        My son has 6 grandparents (4 local) who are active and healthy enough to babysit, but they have their own lives and schedules. None of them would be able or willing to babysit our child for a whole weekend without a ton of notice, and then probably only for a special event. We’re planning a 10-year anniversary trip (for 10 days), and the planning process started about 18 months before the trip with getting on my parents’ calendar.

        Paying a babysitter for 3 days and 3 nights would be about $900 at my babysitters’ overnight rate, which is $15/hour for awake hours and $100 per night while asleep. That’s in a MCOL area. I’d probably only pay that for a large adult-only celebration, not for a low-key weekend at the beach with one other couple. Again, it sounds nice, but just not my priority right now.

        I would say it doesn’t hurt to reach out and nicely invite them for an adults-only weekend, but it appears that would offend some people.

    16. I wouldn’t be offended by the request — and a kid-free break at the beach sounds amazing — but there’s basically no way I could make that happen. We don’t have family in the area and it’s cost-prohibitive to hire an overnight sitter. I also like my kid and don’t want to spend a ton of vacation time without him, because that means there are fewer days for us for family trips.

        Depending on the age of the child, if you are open to hosting the child but just not spending days doing kid things, you could look for summer camp options nearby. I would be open to putting my kid in day camp somewhere new for a week. (But that’s probably a full week, not a few days.)

        1. this is very kid dependent. My kid would 100% want to know why they are being stuck in day camp all day while we hang out at the beach.

           1. Right. I think some of the kid-free people here think kids have the IQs of garden slugs and don’t have the ability to understand or question what happens to them, but most kids are pretty with-it and also understand when they’re getting the short end of a stick. I think it’s pretty disrespectful of a kid’s basic intelligence to try to gaslight them about “see, you get to go to day camp/grandma’s instead of the beach, how fun!”

              1. Exactly. What are the parents in this situation supposed to say to their kid? ‘I know Sue and Bob didn’t mind you coming last year but they said you can’t come this year, but they still like you.’ Like any kid is going to be hurt by that. At least change up the type of vacation so the kid isn’t so specifically excluded.

              2. This. Some of the people on this thread have clearly never met a 6 year old. They’re sentient beings with feelings and opinions and the ability to express them.

              3. This. My 5 year old twins would 100% say “can you ask Friends if we can come to” and “how come FRIENDS don’t want us to come this time? We were good last time”. They would also likely ask that to their face the next time they see them.

              4. You say that your kids are intelligent enough to understand what’s happening, but somehow you can’t explain to them that adults want to hang out with other adults to do adult things in a way that isn’t as obviously ridiculous as Anonymous @ 12:00pm? Who is the adult here?

              5. “You say that your kids are intelligent enough to understand what’s happening, but somehow you can’t explain to them that adults want to hang out with other adults to do adult things in a way that isn’t as obviously ridiculous as Anonymous @ 12:00pm? Who is the adult here?”

                 I’m going to hazard a guess that you don’t have kids because only people who don’t have kids say things like “who is the adult here?” I know who the adult is in my house. I also know that my children are people who have thoughts and feelings. As a responsible parent, I have a responsibility to think about how things I do affect my child and that includes how I explain things to him/her. There’s a difference between a child “understanding” something and a child being able to reason out why something feels or should feel a certain way. And kid feelings get hurt more easily than adult feelings (although with some of the adults here who seem to want to act like children, I’m not sure that’s a completely true statement). I’m going to go back to my first statement – I don’t think you have kids, or you would understand that difference.

                 I’m also just going to say, statements like the one from Anon at 2:07 are the reason why we don’t have very many child-free friends. The harrumphing from people who have never parented about “you just need to set limits” “so-and-so should just show that kid who’s boss” etc. gets so old after about five minutes. I would rather hang out with people who have an understanding that the world doesn’t revolve around their needs (and that includes my children, who definitely understand that). I have met too many 40-year-old child-free women who would give the most spoiled two-year-old stiff competition in a “who is most self-centered” contest. Better to just avoid them altogether.

    17. I feel like this isn’t about petting zoos and splash pads. If it were, you could just split up during the day and do some different activities. I think the underlying cause is either 1) you don’t actually like their child or 2) you want to do something (like heavy drinking or edibles) that’s fundamentally incompatible with having a child there. If it’s #1 don’t invite them. There’s no polite way to tell people you don’t like their kid. If it’s #2, you can invite them (understanding they may say no) but I’d emphasize the things you want to do that are incompatible with having a kid present so they understand it isn’t personal.

    18. don’t invite them.

    19. Yes. Gently, it is ridiculous to ask them to join you “for a few days” but not their kid. You could ask them to come out for an overnight “if you can get a sitter, no worries if not”, but otherwise they will assume the whole family is invited.

        1. “Ridiculous?” I’m not so sure about that. I’m not the OP, but I can envision wanting to do a beach vacation that includes jet skis, kayaking, etc. that some parents wouldn’t be comfortable doing with their kids.

           1. Diana’s right. it’s ridiculous.

           2. I agree, it is ridiculous.

           3. You can’t spend 24 hours a day jet-skiing! Anyway, OP and her husband can do whatever activities they want. The parents are obviously responsible for their children.

    20. OP here! Slightly surprised at the number of people who would be truly offended. I mean, my friends know I’m childfree for a reason, the fact that I prefer a childless life will come as no big shock to them. As for the idea that a beach vacation is a kid-friendly vacation…well, it depends on how you do it. My beach vacation will include miles-long hikes and bike rides, eating a lot of oysters, and probably some other things that your average 6 year old wouldn’t enjoy or be capable of. I don’t want to be building sandcastles all the time, or sourcing chicken tenders that their child will eat. Again, I understand this is entirely age appropriate behavior, just not the kind of stuff I want to deal with on my vacation.

        1. Surely you must have other childless friends.

        2. You asked us!! Do what you want. I would never be offended to simply not be invited on a friend’s vacation. I would think my friend hated my child if they had previously invited my whole family but this year wanted to exclude kid.

           1. +1

           2. Yup.

        3. Why did you ask if we’d be offended if you didn’t want an answer?

        4. Yeah, I came back to read more comments and I’m baffled by how many people would be offended. And I have three young kids. I barely want to travel with them, so I’d be totally floored if they WERE invited. You’re asking them to join you, not asking them to go halfsies on a place “but by the way your kid can’t come.”

        5. OMG this reminds me of how Patsy Stone always was to Saffy. $10 says that kid is already fully aware of how you feel about kids and may be relieved not to be on the invite list. That and $1000 for a good overnight nanny may get the parents to come.

        6. If you’re close enough to this couple to vacation with them, then surely you’re close enough to have candid(ish) conversations about vacation and lifestyle preferences. This request is such a know your audience thing. Do they usually vacation without their kid? Are they sending the kid somewhere by himself this summer – summer camp, visit family, etc.? If so, then sure, I’d offer to host them for a couple of days while child is visiting grandma or whatever. If not, then maybe hold off until the child is a little older and is more independent. I’d talk about this in person and not over text.

        7. There’s nothing wrong with that, but understand that your friends with children are just in a different place right now. Soon enough, their kids will be teenagers and capable of hikes and bike rides and eating food other than chicken tenders. A few years later, their kids will be out of the house. Maintain the friendship however you can until then, but don’t expect your friends with young children to be able to take time off (many parents use limited PTO on sick days and school holidays) and find childcare so they can fit into your ideal vacation.

           I was one of the commenters that said I wouldn’t be offended, but I wouldn’t be able to go.

        8. Great. So you didn’t have kids, which was definitely the best choice for you, and really everyone, like in society at large. Your friends did have kids and they probably don’t feel the same way you do. Do you really not know any other child-free people you could invite on this vacation? Why does it have to be these people that you invite? And are you seriously so obtuse that you can’t get that while other people’s children are annoyances to you, parents are pretty attached to their own children and don’t see them as annoyances to be shunted to the side whenever their presence becomes inconvenient?

        9. OP, I have a kid and would not be offended at all. I am also a little shocked by how many people here are offended by it. Just ask casually and know that the answer might be no. Very chill.

           1. Even if you’re not offended, wouldn’t your kid be offended to be uninvited?

              1. Yes, absolutely. At age 6, my daughter would have blamed herself and asked us what she did wrong on the last trip that caused her to be uninvited this time, and it would have broken my heart.

              2. But if you wouldn’t travel without the kid, then how would the kid even know unless you, as the parent said, “Oh FYI Nancy and Bob invited us on a beach vacation but they specifically excluded you.”

              3. @ Anon 1:21 The issue isn’t that the kid would know, it’s that the parents are hurt because OP has no problem hurting the kid’s feelings (if the parents were to say yes). If OP didn’t want the kid’s feelings to be hurt, don’t ask at all. If OP asks, they are showing they are okay with kid’s feelings being hurt about being left out.

                 Poster at 11:45 was shocked that people would be offended. They are offended because the friend (OP) is so callous towards the kid because clearly the kid would be super hurt and take it personally to be included one year and then be excluded from the exact same vacation the next year. It’s not like OP is asking the parents to go to Vegas, it’s the exact trip they brought the kid for last year.

              4. So parents are going to be offended by even being invited because *if* parents accepted the invitation the kids would have hurt feelings? There’s a real simple answer here if that’s the case — parents decline invitation. Nobody needs to have hurt feelings in that situation. It’s an invitation, not a summons.

              5. You seriously don’t understand why parents would be hurt/offended by someone doing something hurtful to their kid, even if the kid doesn’t find out about it? I don’t want to associate with people who don’t like my kid. This isn’t a generic ‘no kids’ vacation. It’s excluding ONE kid from a trip she was on previously. It’s a pretty logical conclusion for the parents that the other couple didn’t enjoy traveling with *their* kid, not that they don’t want to travel with kids generically, and yeah, lots of parents will find that hurtful.

           2. I am floored by all the “kid’s feelings will be hurt” reactions, and I’m a parent. The idea that you couldn’t have this conversation with a “sentient being” in a way that accounts for the kid’s feeling says more about your parenting than about OP’s VOLUNTARY invitation.

              1. If it’s so obvious, what would you say to the kid so they are not hurt by being excluded?

              2. Right? Do all y’all walk around on eggshells all the time when dealing with your kids for fear of damaging their delicate feelings? Sometimes adults get do things that kids don’t get to do. For reasons.
                 Talk through how to deal with hurt feelings and disappointment. That’s part of growing up.
                 The OP is not wrong for inviting her friends. They may decline, no big deal.

        10. Conversely — and gently — perhaps this would be your friends’ only vacation this year as well and they wouldn’t want to spend it without their child. And maybe the things you find enjoyable (miles-long hikes and bike rides and eating a lot of oysters) are boring to them. My suggestion to you is to perhaps make the beach vacation an all about you and your hubby thing and skip asking the friends. If you really want to do something with your friends, there is always the option of doing something over a long weekend where they might have the ability to leave the kid with a sitter or grandparents so you aren’t bored with kid stuff and you all might be able to have an enjoyable time.

            1. So then the parents don’t even get the option of a child-free vacation with people they consider friends? JUST ASK THEM and see what they want to do!

            2. It’s an invitation, not a summons. Geez, the other couple still has the ability to say no for whatever reason they want.

            3. Genuinely having trouble understanding this — that’s literally what OP is proposing: a few days where the parents *might* (but you won’t know unless you ask) have the ability to leave the kid with a sitter or grandparents.

        11. I have two small children and wouldn’t be offended, but neither would I be likely to go (it’s a lot of grandparent capital and/or babysitter outlay that I would rather use for, say, an exotic vacation or remote wilderness backpacking or something else that is much less kid-friendly). Agree to just ask about an adults-only vacation and expect that they might say no.

        12. I’m also surprised with the number of people on here that aren’t offended, but are saying how in their specific situation they would have a difficult time doing this/wanting to do this, and therefore even though they know nothing about the family in question the OP can’t even ASK them. What? It is a simple question. The family can say no. Conversely, I DO know several friends that can and do easily travel without their kids that would love to be asked and maybe that’s this couple. We don’t all need to do the equivalent of mansplaning to the OP why it’s hard to travel without your kids.

            1. This. I don’t really understand the uproar over asking the question. An invitation isn’t a summons. In this situation I may decide to go or may decide not to go based on a ton of different factors but I’d be way more annoyed by a friend not even asking if I wanted to attend. IMHO it’s more offensive to assume that the parents would never do anything without kid. Give them the choice.

        13. Do your friends know about the mandatory long hikes and bikes? It seems like you have a very definitive idea of how this vacation has to go.

        14. Kids or no kids, you seem very controlling. If you want to plan 100% of the activities and meals, you shouldn’t vacation with friends. Lots of people are going to have slightly different ideas than you about what they want to do, even if they don’t have any kids.

        15. I am too – we must have really different friends. FWIW, I’ve done the kind of vacation you’re contemplating, invited my friends w/ kids to bring their kids only to have them decline to do so because they prefer a kid-free vacay. I think this is just 100% a know your friends situation. There’s also probably a distinction between friends with young children and those with older/tween/teen kids – the latter tends to be a lot more flexible and likely to do things without them, I’ve found.

        16. I would be offended not because you invited me on a kid-free vacation but because, as others have said, we had all previously taken a very similar vacation with my kid, and now you are excluding them. Like it or not, rational or not, I would be offended on behalf of my kid because of your change of heart, even if you explained that you wanted to do kid-unfriendly activities A and B rather than the kid-friendly activities C and D we did all together last time. I wouldn’t go because it would involve hurting my kid to go without them due to the history of past trips. I would have to tell them that they were’t invited this time, and they would be hurt. I don’t want to be in that position, so I’d say no.

            Childcare permitting, I would go on a different trip with you and would have no problem telling my child that the different trip wasn’t a trip for them.

    21. I know that people do get offended but I really don’t think that they should. If you’re paying for a vacation house and you want to invite the couple but not their kid then that is what you should do. They should not be offended by the invite and you should not be offended if they decline. I don’t have kids and would decline any vacation involving children, but I certainly wouldn’t be offended at being invited or try to convince people that they should change their vacation to accommodate me. It doesn’t matter where the trip is to, a trip with kids is fundamentally different than one without kids no matter how well behaved that kid is. Trip to beach without kids: laying on the beach reading books, going for walks. Trip to the beach with kids: building sandcastles to keep kid entertained, making sure they don’t drown.

        1. Depends on the kid and the age of the kid. My kids are in middle school and are better able to go on hikes and long bike rides than more adults that we know.

           1. Fair enough. My siblings kids are in middle and high school. I’d definitely go on a vacation with them long before I’d go anywhere with any of my friends babies or toddlers that I couldn’t easily escape from.

        2. Would you be offended if you and your DH previously vacationed with people, they are doing the same vacation again and this time asked you to not bring your DH?

           1. (Not who you are responding to, but): Does my DH wake up everyone by being super loud at 7 am, insist we only eat at restaurants that serve chicken fingers, effectively make us all stay in the house starting at 8 pm because that’s his bedtime, and start complaining loudly mile 1 into a 2-3 mile hike? Then no, I would not be offended if my DH got uninvited.

              1. (ps I have kids. No shade at kids. I’m just factually describing a vacation day with them that may not be for everyone).

              2. Plenty of husbands do things that are far more annoying than going to bed at 8 pm. I would rather travel with kids than most of my friends’ husbands, tbh.

              3. Fair. But you can then try to limit your vacations with groups that involve those husbands, and still be able to ask the wives in those groups if they want to do a girls-only trip instead without a bunch of people telling you that you are being so offensive to even ask.

              4. But the analogy isn’t girls trips, where only member one of the family is going. The analogy is your whole family vacationing with friends and then the friends inviting you back but excluding only one member of the family. Whether that person is your kid or your DH, I think many people would be offended. And no, I would never dream of telling a friend – even one whose husband I don’t especially like – that I’d love for her family to visit my beach house this summer but oh by the way her DH can’t come. There are definitely ways to travel without kids and/or husbands, but this situation isn’t one where you can politely uninvite one member of the family.

           2. It would be offensive if everyone on the trip was bringing their husband but one person was asked not to bring their husband, but if no one has or is bringing a husband/boyfriend, then I don’t think it is offensive to not include any husbands/boyfriends. If I had kids and were bringing them, but asked you not to bring yours, yes, that’s rude, but if I’m not bringing kids and ask that you not bring any either, not rude. A girl’s trip is not an insult to husbands and a kid-free trip is not an insult to kids

              1. This is the correct analogy.

              2. It’s not a “a kid-free trip” where a few couples are agree to travel without kids. It is the exact vacation that they took last year except they are leaving out one specific kid. It’s pretty understandable that the kid would be hurt by that and the parents would be hurt by OP asking because it demonstrates a lack of consideration by OP to the kid’s feelings.

              3. It’s not leaving out one specific kid, it’s leaving out kids. There just only happened to be one kid there last year. I cannot believe people find asking the question offensive….if you’re good enough friends with someone to vacation with them, I think it’s crazy that you can’t just have an honest conversation about what type of trip you’re looking for this year and how it’s different from last year and you’d love for them to join but also totally get if they can’t/don’t want to w/o their kid.

    22. We have an only child and have lots of child-free friends. If we got an invite like this, we would laugh and tell the friends thanks but no thanks and to invite someone else. It’s not that we can’t/won’t travel without our son (we have and we do) it’s more the tone of “we love you and want to go have fun with you but your kid is persona non grata.” He’s part of our lives and I’m not going to park him somewhere so someone who hates kids can have the vacation they want to have without compromising anything SHE wants to do. I’m well aware there are people out there who don’t like kids; I generally try not to be friends with them (the spoken or unspoken anti-kid vitriol gets really tiresome/wearing after a short timeframe) and definitely would choose to distance myself if a friend made this kind of overture.

        OP, go on the vacation with just your husband so you can completely control the agenda and the activities. It’s probably the only way you’ll be happy anyway.

        1. This. I could have written every word of this.

        2. +1. OP sounds like the same type of person who insists that all her friends spend a ton of money and time on a destination bacherlor3tt3 party. I didn’t have the time and money and energy to be friends with those people when I was young and single, and I certainly don’t have time and money and energy for them now.

           1. OK, that’s absurd. She’s ASKING them if they want to come, not requiring it or “insisting” on it. This is such a huge leap and an seriously aggro response.

              1. People are doing A LOT of projecting on this question.

        3. This is over the top. It is a big leap to go to saying someone hates kids and tear them down for it just because they don’t want to spend their one trip a year at a splash pad.

           How are you taking these kid free trips you mention if your friends aren’t even allowed to ask you to take them apparently?

           1. Maybe she and her husband aren’t so desperate for attention that they have to have all their friends come along on their vacations?

              1. Ding ding ding! We have a winnah!
                 When we travel without our kid it’s either a trip for my husband and I to get away and reconnect, or one of our friends who also has kids has suggested something and the stars align and we can make it work. I don’t have the kind of friends who invite me to things and then dictate the terms of my participation; the planning is more collaborative than that.

              2. +1 “I don’t have the kind of friends who invite me to things and then dictate the terms of my participation…” This is the problem with the OP. There’s nothing wrong with kid-free vacations, and there’s nothing wrong with collaboratively planning a kid-free vacation. There IS something wrong with dictating a kid-free vacation to people who previously came with you on THIS EXACT VACATION with the child you very clearly don’t like.

                 The reason people are telling you not to invite them is because a lot of us would distance ourselves from people who uninvited our child from the vacation we previously took. I would really have my feelings hurt to receive this “invitation,” and that’s why it’s better not to ask at all.

              3. Wow, people sure are all about assuming the worst.
                 My initial read is that the OP, her husband and this other couple have activities/hobbies in common that aren’t necessarily kid friendly and they’d want to do together, not at all that the OP was trying to make the vacation all about her! Sheesh, people sure are hell-bend on finding something to hate on.

           2. Wow, people sure are all about assuming the worst.
              My initial read is that the OP, her husband and this other couple have activities/hobbies in common that aren’t necessarily kid friendly and they’d want to do together, not at all that the OP was trying to make the vacation all about her! Sheesh, people sure are hell-bend on finding something to hate on.

    23. I think I would be more offended/saddened if I didn’t get asked and my friends just assumed I’d never want to go anywhere without my kid. Maintaining my own identity and hobbies is really, really important to me though. In this instance, it would probably depend on what kind of trip it was – is it sea kayaking for two days followed by inland wine tours or is it lounging at a beach house all day?

    24. No good way to do this – It is not an abstract or longstanding preference for adults only trip, you spent time with their kid and now are saying you do not want to do that again, specifically with him. That’s just mean.

    25. Honestly, don’t invite them. I have two kids and while I have gone away without them, but summer is the pits for childcare (patchwork of summer camps, daycamp, sitters). If I was in their shoes, I’d decline because I end up having to use my vacation time on things like random school days off *and* for vacations with my kids.

        1. But you’re not in their shoes – what on earth is wrong with OP asking them? Maybe they would freaking love this trip. It’s an invitation, not a demand, and saying no isn’t a crime either. In fact, a lot of people are still happy to be asked even if they can’t make a particular trip work.

           1. As numerous posters have explained, the asking is hurtful to the parents because by asking OP showing she is okay with the kid’s feelings being hurt if the parents say yes. There’s no way the kid isn’t hurt by being invited on the trip one year and specifically being excluded the next year. Asking says that OP is okay with the kid’s feelings being hurt by being specifically excluded. It’s not like there were 10 kids last year and everyone decided it was too chaotic and so they are doing adults only this year. It was one kid and that one kid is being specifically excluded. My 8 year old would be devastated to be excluded like that. I’d never say yes so she wouldn’t know about it but by asking, OP shows an indifference to the kid’s feelings and it’s the indifference to the kid’s feelings that is hurtful to the parents.

              If OP asked the parents do to an adults only trip on different terms – wine tour, Vegas, whatever – it would be totally different.

              1. Yup, this exactly. Excluding one specific child from a trip she was previously part of is totally different than deciding as a group that you want to go an destination that’s difficult to do with kids so the kids will need to stay home. I travel quite a bit without my kid and believe it’s good for me as a person and good for my marriage, but I would end the friendship if a “friend” did what OP is proposing.

    26. OP here. WOW!! So many strong opinions.

        -A few notes: the friends are the ones who turned me on to oysters and bike rides, so some of my vacay plans are specifically thanks to them, and activities that they love doing.
        -This will be their only vacation this summer. If they don’t come with us, they are not going to leave the city, so I am not demanding they use up their precious PTO on me!me!me! instead of some other fun thing they are thinking of doing. They have sent the kid to the grandparents before, and he enjoys it, so I thought it would be nice to offer them a little getaway.
        -I am friendly, but not friends with their child, because I’m an adult and the child is six, so that would be a weird and inappropriate friendship. I also don’t consider the child an equal and don’t feel I need to explain myself or my decisions to him. It’s up to his parents to control the flow of information and the tenor of the conversation surrounding this.

        I am going to invite them using the language some of the more level-headed posters suggested above: “we’re going to XXX for a week. If you’d like to get away for a few childfree days, we’d love to have you!” I will report back on their response, since some people here seem extremely invested in this. I will not be offended if they decline due to logistics; I think this is the most likely response. I doubt that they will be as mortally wounded by the invitation as some posters seem to be, but who knows?

        1. I think you should consider what you will do if they respond by saying they’d love to come, but with their child. “Child had such a great time and would love to come again! You guys were so kind to include her last time.” Now what?

           1. +1 I hope they do this to you, OP!

              1. Yikes, you are way too invested in making OP into a villain.

           2. I would simply say “I understand, but we’re looking forward to a decidedly adult vibe this year. If you aren’t able to come, I completely understand. We just thought we’d give you the option!”

              1. “we’re looking forward to a decidedly adult vibe this year”
                 This wording makes it sound to me like the vacation is going to be something you’d find at Hedonism II. If I were the invitees I would say no to this because I would not want to have to politely decline “swinging” with my couple friends once I got to the beach house.

           3. The response to that should be “This year we’re going to do adults/couples/whatever only. So sorry you won’t be able to make it. We’ll miss you!”

        2. If you had already made up your mind about what to do, then why did you ask for advice and whether it could offend them? This whole post was just tr0lling.

           1. Agree. It was actually the very first poster to respond at the very top of the thread who flagged this as a troll. I didn’t think it was, but based on this follow up I do. The follow up doesn’t make sense – like you can’t order oysters or ride bikes because the kid is there? And the idea that you’re friends with the parents but never directly interact with the kid? So confusing.

              1. +1 I thought the OP was just really out of touch at first but the follow ups made it clear it was fake. I predict there will be a response tomorrow “Guess what!? The parents are just THRILLED to come.” Yeah, ok, sure. This whole thing is made up.

           2. I mean there are also a ton of people who responded that they would not be offended. It’s possible OP would have changed her mind if 100% of people said they’d be offended (which is far from the case)

              1. Yes, and perhaps the OP has changed the way in which they intend to approach the parent-friends so as to not be super-mean about it (i.e., the white lie suggested below). The original post was a little tone-deaf, which I think sparked a lot of the ire.

           3. OP here: I asked for advice on how to ask them, not really whether I should ask them. And I received very helpful wording here, so thank you, hive!

              1. You literally asked “Would you be terribly offended?” Then got annoyed when people explained why they would be offended.

        3. Sounds reasonable, OP. Not much else was reasonable on this thread. As for the “gotcha” anon at 2:31, the answer is a simple “oh we loved having __ on the trip last year, but this year, we wanted to try adults-only – I’ve got my heart set on scuba diving. Let me know if that sounds fun to you, but I understand if it doesn’t work out.” Simple.

        4. “since some people here seem extremely invested in this.”
           LOLOLOL. Honey, the only person that invested in your vacation planning is you! Oy vey, the self-involvement, I can’t even…

           1. +1

              There’s so many ppl on this thread because we’re all tired of talking about coronavirus and the other threads are dull. We don’t actually care that much.

           2. Are you kidding? The level of vitriol aimed at OP shows that it really hit a nerve with some people. If you don’t care, why are you even still reading this thread?

              1. This. People are clearly very invested in this! (I’m not sure why) I’m in the not offended by this camp but am very invested in this thread just because people’s reactions are so over the top I’m really amused.

        5. Ugh. I am just glad I am not your friend.

    27. I often get invited by friends for girls -only or adults-only getaways. We usually decline as we both work and travel a lot and like to spend free time with our daughter. But I’ve never thought of those invites as rude.

21. After yesterday’s long run, I have soreness, not necessarily on the front of my ankles, nor on top of my arches, but right between them, where my foot meets the front of the ankle. Anyone have any idea what this area is called (so I can search for helpful stretches) or any other tips about alleviating it? It was the last long run before this sunday’s Half so I all I have to do this week is gentle easy short runs.

    1. That was part of plantar fasciatis (sp?) for me. One stretch I was advised in PT is from a chair, put your foot top down – so, like, top of toes touching the ground – and stretch it that way (I’m sure I’m explaining this terribly, but I’m not sure how better to say it).

       1. Ooh, that stretch feels like it’s doing the job! Thanks. Reading the wiki page for plantar fasciiitis implies that might be it, the soreness only presents when the leg-foot angle is less than 80 ish degrees.

    2. How many miles are on your shoes? That’s the first sign that I need a new pair (I wear Brooks Adrenaline, FWIW).

       1. It’s a new pair in the last month – but I had different socks on than normal and might not have had the laces done tightly enough, on reflection. (New pair of exactly the same shoe as I was running in before, because I had a few hundred miles on them – new ones have about 40 miles on now)

    3. Google “posterior tibial tendonitis,” and if it sounds familiar…..give yourself a bit of a running break. I didn’t take care of this early enough, and I was in a boot off and on for six months…..and my foot hasn’t been the same since. Not trying to scare you – just take a break if you need it!

       1. Taking a break at the end of this week after the Half!!

22. Recommendations for heavy-duty hand cream? All this hand-washing has me developing a few dry patches. :(

    1. Kiehl’s hand salve all day long! It was recommended to me on here and literally changed my life.

       1. Same, I found out about it here and it’s the BEST.

    2. On a rec last week I picked up both the Neutrogena Norwegian Formula and O’Keefe’s Working Hands (both at my local drugstore). The Working Hands is amazing and I saw results almost instantly. Less enamored with the Neutrogena but it works.

       1. Working Hands is the BEST.

    3. Nivea regular cream (dark blue container)–intended for face, but it’s super thick and sinks in more quickly on hands. It’s cheap and comes in many different sizes, including small tins for your bag.

    4. PSA: I went to pick up some hand lotion over my lunch break, and the Target near my office was nearly sold out. All the frequent hand-washing is taking a toll!

    5. Beekman 1802 hand salves – they’re the best

23. Ok here’s my Coronavirus work situation. Two emails this morning: 1. Someone in the building (not our office) tested positive. No, we can’t wfh. 2. We need to inform them if we plan to leave the country or take a cruise. The info will be shared with hr.

    The second thing seems unnecessarily invasive given the first thing. Right?

    1. Yes

    2. 2 is not an overreaction. 1 is an underreaction.

    3. Yes. If someone in your building already has it, then your travel plans don’t materially increase the risk of other people in the building getting it (although it does increase the risk of spreading it to people in other countries and on cruises, but that isn’t really your company’s business). And, if you can’t WFH, then informing HR basically increases the chance you’ll be forced to use PTO and then unpaid leave to self-quarantine, when you’re just as likely to have contracted the virus at work as while traveling.

    4. #2. Given the situation, I wouldn’t call it invasive. They’re trying to keep this ish contained and if you come back with this, they need to know that so that anyone who gets exposed can be notified.

       1. Except they’ve already exposed me?

24. Solidarity to my capital markets/finance sisters out there who are living this dumpster fire today.

    1. Diana’s right. it’s ridiculous. oof it’s rough. i’m comforted by the fact that EVERYTHING is down and it’s just mass hysteria as opposed to supported by underlying fundamentals for each name.

       1. oops first 2 sentences were there from my prior comment somehow.

25. FYI if you went to Christ Church in DC this past weekend you’re supposed to self-quarantine. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-virus-christ-church-quarantine/2020/03/09/17567796-61fa-11ea-845d-e35b0234b136_story.html

    Great example of how the coronavirus WILL affect you even if you’re young and healthy

    1. No one has ever said young and healthy people don’t get it, just that they don’t often die or get serious complications from it.

       1. Right, but self-quarantine is not necessarily easy for everyone who goes to that church. What if you work an hourly job? What if you’ve since seen people in your family who are at risk?

          I am increasingly irate at the way people expect things to go on, business as usual, because it’s just too inconvenient to take preventive measures. Or for the government to actually acknowledge that public health is being endangered.

26. Good morning! I’m self-quarantined because I carpooled with a friend Thursday who came down with a high fever Friday and has been in bed since. He has been advised to self treat at home and it has never been suggested that he be tested. I get that it may be influenza rather than covid-19, but wouldn’t a test be the way to find out?

    I’m going stir crazy at home.

    1. There aren’t enough tests in this country. Which is deliberate because Trump wants to keep those “good numbers.” It sucks, but it’s not the fault of your local hospital or public health agency.

    2. He could get a flu test and if he tests positive for flu, it doesn’t absolutely mean he doesn’t have covid-19, but makes it more likely it’s flu.

       1. Unless he’s seriously ill they probably don’t want him taking up a bed in the ER right now. There’s really nothing to do for flu except rest at home and drink lots of fluids, so not a whole lot of point to getting a positive test.

          1. Why would he go to the ER? He can call his doctor or stop by an urgent care.

          2. the whole point of a positive test is to try to track and contain community transmission. Can you imagine how widespread it would be in Europe right now if Italy had just shrugged shoulders and not started widespread testing to track and contain?

             1. I agree we should be testing more widely for COVID-19 so we can contain the spread. I wasn’t disagreeing with that at all. I said a flu test isn’t that important. So he knows he has flu instead of COVID-19, so what? He still shouldn’t go to work. And knowing this one guy in city X has the flu doesn’t do anything to help public health departments contain the spread of COVID-19.

             2. The way it nested on my phone is made it seem like someone was saying no point in testing for Covid 19. Agree that there is no point to a flu test.

    3. covid 19 testing is much less available in the US vs other countries because they are trying to keep the numbers low.

       Germany even has drive up testing for anyone that wants it in affected areas.

       1. Germany does not have testing for everyone that wants it. Yes, some places have changed setup (drive through tent) to minimize exposure for staff and other patients. But they apply the same rules that most (all?) US healthcare providers apply. If you came into contact with somebody who has confirmed Covid19, or you recently traveled to a level-3 country, you get tested. The number of tests available (starting from physical test kits, to staff and equipment to run all those throat swabs) is limited everywhere and needs to be used for the most likely cases.

          1. US is way way behind on testing and is testing a much more limited number of people vs other countries.

             I didn’t say it’s available country wide on request in Germany but it is widely available in the affected areas.

    4. The lack of testing is driving me crazy. I flew domestically, to and from airports that are testing international arrivals. I came down with a fever and cough. I called my doctor, who likewise said there’s no way I could get a test for Coronavirus because I didn’t travel internationally, and if I had, she couldn’t test for it. She advised me to stay home and take normal cold/flu precautions. I was very anxious for the 4 days that I was sick.

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