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Updated: Nov 1, 2018 240 Comments · by

Coffee Break – Lorelei Maryjane Pump

Coffee Break

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Fitzwell - Lorelei Maryjane Pump (Nude Patent) - FootwearI normally think of the brand Fitzwell as designing more for, well, my mother — solid, comfortable shoes for problem feet. But lately I've come across a number of cute Fitzwell shoes — including these great Mary Jane pumps. Particularly, I'm lusting after them in this beige patent — they just look like great summer pumps. The shoe is $79 at Zappos (also available in black, black patent, and red patent). Fitzwell – Lorelei Maryjane Pump (Nude Patent) – Footwear (L-all)  

Sales of note for 9.30.24

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Comments

  1. found a peanut

    I have a pair of nude patent mary janes and I love them. Great find!

    • eek

      Avoid rotorooter if you can; the plumber they sent to do a fix on my rental property asked me what I wanted him to do to fix the problem. Um, that’s why I called you. Luckily my dad and SO told me what the fix was and I walked him through it. And, he was really timid and never ever ever left after the job was done and sat in his truck for an hour (I think because he didn’t want to get called out on another job; luckily there was a flat fee for this repair).

      Maybe there are some Yelp recommendations that look legit. I’m sorry you’re still having problems w/ landlord. I always feel terrible when something happens and I always call back as soon as possible and have a solution within 1 business day.

  3. BioPharma Girl

    Looks like a cross between the Manolo Blahnik Mary Jane (good) and a character shoe (bad).

  4. mamabear

    Love them. Would love the strap to be a smidge lower, but that is a minor complaint.

  5. phillygirlruns

    i just cannot get into patent. i initially felt the same way about skinny jeans (which i now like) and uggs (which i hated, then accepted, and now hate again), but i’m pretty sure my dislike of patent is here to stay.

    • TCFKAG

      For some reason patent in black doesn’t bother me. Patent in any other color does. Sensicle? No. But that’s the way it is.

      • eastbaybanker

        Oh no! The patent dissing is making me sad. I LOVE patent. Patent shoes, patent bags. It feels polished to me. My black patent Via Spiga pumps are faves, as are my pointy toe red flats. I also love my Marc by Marc Jacobs black patent flats. Oh, and my Sam Edelman nude for me pointy toe heels. Something about patent shoes makes every outfit shiny and sharp.

    • CW

      I love patent. I think it’s because I feel like it’s my tiny way of rebelling against the machine.

    • SF Bay Associate

      That’s ok, Phillygirl. I love patent, but have an irrational hatred of suede. It’s lovely to look at, but at some point I have to touch the item, such as to put on my shoes, and recoil. The texture of suede makes my skin crawl. Still hate Uggs unless the wearer lives in a place with actual winter and wears the Uggs only during said winter.

      • Rani

        True Shoe Confession Time.

        I hated Uggs until I borrowed my BF’s daughter’s extra pair one night when I didn’t have warm non-work shoes at his place. So comfy (I wore socks with hers).

        I did get a pair, wore them that year when it was, in my mind, really cold — just running errands, to a movie and casual dinner, etc. But this year I’ve barely worn them — one, it wasn’t cold enough, and two — they just seemed way to casual for most occasions and I did have more suitable ‘grown-up’ casual boots to wear.

        I think I’m over them and I’m okay with that.

    • AnonInfinity

      I agree re: patent (in all colors) and skinny jeans. I never developed the acceptance of Uggs (unless you sincerely need them because of your climate).

      Patent looks squeaky to me or something. Also I always feel like it would scratch easily, though I’m not sure if that’s the case.

      • Ugg-hater

        But, in cold weather where it snows, Uggs make no sense. Suede just gets wet – unless its really well water-proofed – and I don’t trust most water-proofing processes. You want something a lot sturdier if you live somewhere sincerely cold and snowy!

        Sorry. Rant over.

        • SF Bay Associate

          Heh. I’ve never lived somewhere cold. I guess I was thinking that Uggs were indoor shoes for when it’s cold, like walking around in a mall or a non-corporette office (??), but you switch to outside-cold heavy-duty shoes when you’re outside? Or outdoor shoes when it’s cold and dry, not wet? Kinda like wearing rainboots outside, but switching to regular work shoes in the office/mall/etc? But there’s clearly no reason for anyone to wear Uggs where I live.

          • Ugg-hater

            There are much cuter “indoor cold shoes” or I guess you could wear socks!

            Also…who carries two pairs of boots! Okay. Done ranting again. Maybe.

          • AnonInfinity

            I’ve also never lived anywhere cold, which is why I thought that Uggs were legit cold-weather shoes in some areas.

            Now that I’ve learned these things, I am even more firmly anti-Ugg.

          • phillygirlruns

            when i was in my ugg-acceptance period, i wore them as commuter shoes during the winter. i bought the “ultra” ones – i think they were $30 or $40 more than the regular uggs, but the sole was much thicker and molded and more supportive. i will say that they are by far the most cozy things i’ve ever put on my feet – like little foot comforters – but after a couple months of wear, the fur at my ankles wore away and resulted in awful blisters. i have a pair of the “dakota” moccasin slippers that i wear around the house or to take the dogs out – those are great.

          • PollyD

            When it’s cold-ish (like about 55 or colder) I wear fake Uggs from my ballet class to the car (I have about a 1-2 block walk from the studio to the car). They are totally ugly and make me look like I have paws, but after 1.5 hours of dancing, it’s kind of nice to put my feet into fleece-lined shoes. I think I paid maybe $30 for these at the end of winter one year. They really are incredibly ugly, though.

        • Gigi

          I slipped in Uggs, when the sidewalk was wet from just a little rain. I haven’t looked at them the same way since.

        • a passion for fashion

          i was always an ugg hater. then i moved to chicago and they keep my feet warm and dry in the winter, despite the fact that they are suede. and i dont use a waterproofing anything on them. so they do actually work.

          and for what its worth, i still hate how they look, but 4 in heels in the snow doesnt make much sense . . . .

        • meme

          I live in a cold-winter climate and I always thought Uggs were glorified slippers only worn outside by the miniskirt-in-winter-at-bus-stop crowd only.

        • Anon in Denver

          I feel the need to ‘splain how Uggs are worn in places where it is cold and it snows, just because some of y’all seem a little confused. :) It’s often cold in Denver and it often snows. Sometimes, these things happen on the same day. Uggs are good for cold days where there is light or snow on the ground. Or after a heavy snow fall and the sidewalks have been shoveled. Or, if it’s still snowing heavily, but you are only going from your car to someplace inside (and have stored your real snow boots in the car, in case you get stuck somewhere. Yes, people do this. In fact, I keep an extra lap blanket in my car, and occasionally an extra jacket). But if it is actively snowing and snowing heavily, Uggs are a no-go. They are not, as many of you have noted, a snow boot. If it’s dumping snow, then most people wear snow boots. I think that people you see wearing Uggs slogging through the snow either don’t know any better, can’t afford snow boots, or underestimated the weather when they got dressed.

          • Anonymous NYer

            Yes. This is how I wear them. You need something on your feet for the days where it’s between 40 and 0 degrees, but not actually precipitating much. They are the most comfy things ever. No one said they were stylish.

      • nona

        Uggs were originally used by Australian surfers to keep their tootsies warm apres-surf.

        They are not snow shoes.

    • NOLA

      For me, the big difference is patent that’s real leather vs. the plasticky patent leather. Vince Camuto makes real leather patent leather and they are so much more comfortable then the ones with no give.

    • KK

      I thought I was the only one who hates patent. I think I might have a patent belt, but that’s it. No shoes, no purses. It’s cute on little girls, but once you’re over 10, I don’t get patent either. Just not my thing.

      I don’t mind skinny jeans though.

  6. AnonInfinity

    Silk scarves — I love them. I’d like to wear them as a regular part of my wardrobe.

    Here are my questions: 1. What blouse neckline to wear? I feel like a button down would make me look like I’m a flight attendant, but not sure about other neck lines. For example, is it chic or weird for some skin to show between a scoop neck and the scarf?

    2. I am 29. Will scarves age me? I mostly see them on women who are around 50+?

    • Scarf fan

      I think they work best with boat neck cuts or scoop necks where skin doesn’t show. When skin shows it just messes with the line.

      I think scarfs with vibrant patterns or interesting colors are least aging. I’d avoid a traditional hermes or anything at our age because I think its just TOO traditional. But I’ve seen some late twenties women pull them off, so YMMV.

      • AMB

        I have a rotation of 3-4 scarves that I wear, often once a week, and am 26. They are mainly very bright colours, one of them a great colourblock in cobalt, yellow, purple and aqua by Anne Klein, another abstract in all sorts of colours, a third less vibrant but with black, beige, lime and aqua blue (done by a First Nation artist, I work with First Nation communities). I tend to wear them with a coordinating scoopneck tee and a cardigan that accents one of the colours in the scarf. I get lots of compliments on them, and I find work like ties in that there can be lots of personality in a professional manner. I also don’t mind dressing a leetle bit older than my age as I am generally the youngest one in the room and need a little help on the authority side of things.

        • Anon

          This sounds lovely! I am also 26, but look like I’m going on 18 and am completely sold on trying to incorporate scarves based on your post. Can I ask a follow-up question: how do you fold them? I love pashminas but can’t seem to get scarves tied right. Thanks!

          • AMB

            I either do an almost tie, folding them several times lengthwise and then knotting them or (these are all square scarves) I simply fold them in half and tie around my neck for an abstract, draped look that I like (and completely covers my chest often, helpful as I am busty). My only thing then is I like my hair to be down as I find the ends at the back look odd when my hair is up.

    • Location, Not Age

      Crew necks. Never collars.

      I buy a lot of my scarves from museum stores and have ever since I lived in Boston during college and then moved to NYC immediately after. Which means I started wearing them around 20 and wearing them regularly around 21. Having grown up in Southern California, I always have considered being a scarf-wearer more a sign of location (in this case, East Coast vs. West Coast and city vs. suburb) than of age. Think of all those fine young Parisian scarf wearers!

    • AnonInfinity

      You all make excellent points. My new goal for the next month is to purchase an appropriate shirt to wear with my one silk scarf and do it.

    • EK

      Hermes scarves are one of the few things I collect (with purses and shoes and clothes and …). I wear them whenever I think my outfit needs a pop of color or texture, regardless of the collar type. If it’s a collarless top, I will usually fold it and knot it in the front or wrap it around my neck and make a small knot with the ends (at the risk of looking like I work for an airline). If I wear one with a button-down/collared shirt, I fold the ends together to make a big triangle, wrap it around my neck bandit-style, then pull the ends around and drape them over the front of the triangle. You don’t even see the collar this way. I realize these are terrible descriptions, sorry. You may want to check out the hermes website, they have a downloadable pamphlet on different wants to tie a scarf.

  7. Artsy lawyer

    Hey coloristas….I’m planning to wear a gray suit with an Ann Taylor shell in “dayglow yellow” (essentially, a pale neon) to a professional networking event soon. I would like to liven up the outfit with a colorful accessory and/or nail color–any suggestions on colors that would look good with this lovely–though somewhat unusual–color?

  8. Bonnie

    I love these shoes. Has anyone seen something similar but a smidge shorter?

  9. ESQuared

    TJ- I know there’s been a lot of vacation talk lately, but has anyone been to Mexico lately? It’s looking mighty tempting, despite all of the bad press it’s gotten lately… has anyone gone recently? Any good or bad experiences? What about driving in Mexico…? I’m in CA & thinking about driving down to Cabo… am I risking my life to save a little $ on a tropical vacation?

    • Cali CPA

      Definitely don’t drive down there! I stayed in an all inclusive resort there last summer and everything (including air from LAX) was under $700 for four nights. The area that I was in was very touristy and safe, but the border towns that you’d have to drive through to get there are not!

      • SF Bay Associate

        +1 on don’t drive in Mexico. I drove once from San Diego to Rosarito (?) with local San Diegans (Chula Vista-ans) who knew Northern Mexico and were experienced in driving in Mexico. We also drove down in their beater car which they own specifically for driving in Mexico, because auto theft is so common there. Forget rules of the road – driving in Mexico was almost as scary as driving in Bangkok. While we managed to avoid the high crime areas with their skills, we were still stopped by the Federalis twice for cash bribes as they thoroughly searched the car and took more than half of our beer. The San Diegans were nonplussed, but they knew what they were doing.

        –> You should fly.

        • CA Atty

          +100 don’t drive in Mexico. Rules of the road are nuts, there are no rules and in a lot of places it’s a stretch to call it a road!

          I went with my Mexican-from-Mexico roommates and we did similar, only day trips, drove the cruddiest beater car we could find, stayed in the safest places possible, it was still terrifying.

          • CPA to be

            Completely agree. My husband and I went to Tulum on our honeymoon (which is gorgeous and I’d highly recommend), and on our drive back to the airport, we got pulled over by a cop who refused to give my husband his drivers license back until we gave him all the money we had. Luckily since it was our last day we didn’t have a whole bunch of money, but still. Overall we had an amazing experience, and I’d def. go back. Just watch it if you’re going to drive.

    • anon

      My family vacations every year in Mexico. We always go to Mazatlan and always stay at the Hotel Playa down there. It is a great, family friendly hotel with a nice beach. We usually go in November as I think the weather is much better at that time (not quite as humid as it is in the summer). I have always felt completely safe at the hotel. I wouldn’t drive down there from CA though. I think that it could get dangerous around the border towns and isolated on country roads.

      I have also done a Mexican cruise, which took us to Puerta Vallarta, Mazatlan, and Cabo. I didn’t enjoy the cruise, but that is more because of my distaste of cruises in general than the locations.

    • Lyssa

      I was on the east coast in 2009, and things were fine. I wouldn’t drive there, though! People are kind of nuts on the roads, at least where I was. If you stick to the touristy hotels, I’m sure it’s fine.

    • elz

      +1 million on not driving. Definitely not safe.

      We used to go all the time, but haven’t been back for the last few years. Some friends just got back from Cabo and had no trouble. They flew in, were picked up at the airport, went straight to the hotel. We had other friends go to Puerto Vallarta-again, pick up at the airport, driven to hotel, stayed ONLY at hotel.

    • ESQuared

      Ok, got it, will not drive in Mexico– thanks for encouraging my better intuition. ;-)
      I think if we went it would be to a resort– I went to Puerto Vallarta when I was about 10 years old & the resort we stayed at was GORGEOUS.
      Also, when I went as a kid, I got a stomach bug and we were pretty vigilant about staying away from the water. I vaguely remember from study abroad that there is a way to avoid this in advance by getting some sort of medication from your doctor, anyone know what I’m talking about…?
      Any other words of advice are always welcomed (names of hotels, etc).
      Also, like anon, not a fan of cruises.

      • Seattleite

        The entire city of PV is now on purified water. I’ve been many times and have never had a problem, even ordering tap water in restaurants.

        Before that, I did get the prescription to avoid tummy problems. The downside of that is that it makes your skin more sensitive to sun, and you’ll be counseled to avoid the sun altogether.

    • JB

      Flights are so cheap and short down to Cabo, I would not risk driving. I just got back a few weeks ago and had an amazing time. SO and I stayed in the Hilton Los Cabos and it was quiet, beautiful, great service, and we took public transportation for $1 to get into town. I would highly recommend!

      PS. Expect to pay American prices for stuff like food and drinks.

    • Puerto Vallerta

      My husband and I took his kids (21 and 16) to the Westin in Puerto Vallarta for a week over Christmas/NYE four months ago. We flew direct from LAX. Cab from airport to hotel. Stayed in the resort all day (sometimes walking up and down the beach). Walked into town or took a cab or a bus into the farther part of town every evening for dinner. One evening the two of us took the bus into town in the afternoon and the kids (together) took the bus into town later in the evening to meet us for dinner.

      We felt very safe. My husband and I have traveled extensively, before marriage and after, internationally and know what safe looks and feels like and what it doesn’t. This was safe. On the other hand, it was also Puerto Vallerta, which is NOT one of the affected areas. Check out the State Department website.

    • eastbaybanker

      I rented a car in Cabo for a day tris out to less populated beaches and got lost and ended up in a slum outside the city. Don’t drive in Mexico!

    • NB

      I was there earlier this year on the Yucatan. Didn’t find driving to be problematic or crazy, especially compared a number of other countries I have done road trips in (Turkey, India, Brazil). But I wouldn’t drive across the border — beside the change in driving styles, you have to contend with a host of other issues.

      Many parts of Mexico are completely safe and depend on tourist dollars (which mean that they are invested in keeping those areas safe). Especially if you are thinking of a holiday at a resort, with occasional excursions, there are a ton of places where you can go, have a great time, and not worry about your safety.

    • AK

      I was born in Mexico (raised in the US) and have traveled extensively around the country for years, as recently as this past December (including driving around Akumal/Tulum/Chichen Itza area). Many parts of Mexico have not been touched by drug violence — I cannot stress this enough. Mexico is a really big country, and anyone who makes a blanket statement about safety there is simply uninformed. If you’re a savvy traveler, you know there are risks anywhere you go, only some of which warrant avoiding a place entirely.

      That said, I would avoid driving over or near border areas, as these *are* where the violence is most common. Other parts of Mexico are safe to drive around, but you do have to drive more defensively and it is certainly easier to get directions, etc. if you speak Spanish.

  11. Pg after 4 years...

    Ladies, I just found out this morning that I am pregnant — after 4 years of trying, 4 failed IVF’s, and a m/c.

    So many of my friends have gone through pregnancies since I’ve been trying — many of them twice. Their pregnancies seemed to come and go so fast, babies springing up everywhere. But now the next few weeks and months are stretching out in front of me like eternity! A baby still seems so far away…

    I am only about 3 1/2 weeks at the moment so it’s way early, and I know all too well what can happen. But please oh please let this work!

  12. Lost

    What doctors should I be going to as a woman in my mid twenties? A friend of mine was just talking about scheduling her annual appointment with an internist and I had never heard of this. How have I missed this info?!

    • MygnBg

      I just go to my general doctor once a year unless I have something specific. Then she refers me to someone. I am late 20s. Never even been to an ob/gyn.

      • Batgirl

        Not trying to overstep my bounds, but you really should go to an OBGYN if you are or ever have been sexually active. There are all sorts of STIs you can get with no visible symptoms and the best way to prevent anything from getting dangerous is to keep up with your exams.

        • Efficiency is nice

          My PCP does my basic GYN stuff (paps and BC). I only had to see a specialized OB-GYN when something really complicated came up. Since I can generally get in and see my PCP in a couple days whereas it takes months to see the OB, I say, save time and money!

          So maybe that’s what MygnBg is doing?

          • MygnBg

            Yep, my PCP does all the general things I would go to an OB/GYN for. I also got the HPV shot from her. Haven’t been pregnant or had anything else I would need to see an OB/GYN for specifically.

          • GovtMom

            A thought: if you are planning to become pregnant anytime in the next several years, it may be worth switching to an Ob-Gyn. You can then build up a relationship with the dr, instead of scrambling to find someone when you become pregnant and PCP/gen dr won’t treat.

    • Always a NYer

      An internist is your GP, the doctor you go to when you’re sick. My routine doctors are the GP, gyno, opthamologist, and dermatologist. I also have a podiatrist on call as well as the chiropractor.

      • SaltyDawg

        Second. As a fair skinned, freckled one I see the Derm annually for a skin check … and quarterly for Botox. :)

    • TCFKAG

      An internist is another word for a primary care physician or a general practitioner (I’m pretty sure). I think as a healthy twenty-something, you should see a PCP and a GYN, unless you have a PCP who can do general GYN services for you. Then your PCP can refer you to specialists as needed.

      Oh and a dentist.

      • anonz

        Actually, an internist is someone who did an internal medicine residency. PCPs include internal medicine and family practice specialties. Some plans allow OB/GYNs as PCPs too. There really isn’t a GP anymore.

    • January

      I believe an internist is a doctor who specializes in internal medicine. Most general physicians (e.g., your PCP) specialize in internal medicine or family medicine. So if you’re in general good health and you see one of these or an ob/gyn somewhat regularly, you’re probably ok.

      *Disclaimer: I’m not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. But I wouldn’t freak out over not having an internist.

    • Anonymous NYer

      as everyone said, internist = primary care physician. I’m mid-20s and I never go to one. I think I have one assigned to me by my insurance, but I have no idea who he/she even is. However, my mother is a nurse practitioner, so for most things I just ask her. Without her, I probably still wouldn’t go to a doctor unless I knew something was wrong. You should be going to the gyno every year (I drag my feet on this and it usually winds up being every 2 years). Dentist every 6 months. Eyes every year I think (I have a specific eye issue, so I go like every 6 months).

      Basically, I don’t go to any doctors unless absolutely necessary because of some sickness or issue. If you’re healthy and happy and nothing is hurting/itching/otherwise funky looking/mysteriously bothering you, I’d say you’re fine and completely normal for not going to the doctor. You should probably go to the gyno though at some point. Most young women treat the gyno as their pcp and only doctor.

      • TCFKAG

        Minor disagreement, but even healthy twenty-somethings (if they have insurance) should have a regularish ongoing relationship with a PCP (as in, go once a year for a check up or whatever). The reason being that if anything serious comes up (and by serious I mean something as minor as a sinus infection) and you need a more urgent appointment, you don’t want to have to wait three months to be seen. Many doctors will fit in regular patients for urgent appointments but won’t fit in “new” patients or patients they haven’t seen in three years or ever.

        Otherwise, you’re going to end up going to urgent care or ERs for things that don’t really need to be seen at those. Or you won’t be seen until it gets really bad.

        • Merabella

          Read somewhere recently that you only have to go the dentist once a year. They said the twice a year thing came from a toothpaste commercial.

          • Jenna Rink

            The frequency you need to see a dentist is really a personal thing, something to do with the natural levels of bacteria in your mouth. Some people have teeth that allow them to go 5 years without seeing a dentist, and some of us have teeth that would benefit from four cleanings a year. Know your mouth!

        • Anonymous NYer

          that’s fair. I guess I’m in a little different boat because my mother can prescribe anything minor I’d need – like in your sinus infection example. Makes sense to do it your way if you don’t have someone who can take care of you like that.

          • doc's daughter

            As someone who’s been in that boat, I would encourage you to start going to a PCP. It’s annoying to go when your parent could easily prescribe you something, but I think it’s better for your health, and there are no potential ethical issues, when you can establish a relationship with a PCP in case you need something medically that a parent really shouldn’t be handling for their child because of impartiality, patient autonomy, etc.

      • Gail the Goldfish

        But advantage of having a regular primary care physician: it can make it easier to get an appointment if you need one same day. I had a sinus infection last week. Wasn’t so bad that I wanted to go to the emergency room or urgent care center or anything, but I clearly needed some antibiotics or something. Despite not having an official appointment slots, my doctor was able to work me in. I think a lot are willing to do that for established patients, but not so much for random guy calling them up for the first time. And by “regular” I mean, see like once a year, but I’m in their system.

      • TurtleWexler

        Check with whoever does your PAP on the one-year thing — I went for my exam recently and was told the recommendations have been changed for people in monogamous relationships (or who are abstinent, I guess) and they now do the test every two years instead. If you get specifically tested for HPV and are clear, they will stretch it to every three years. My old practice also said they preferred to space them out at least 18 and up to 24 months unless you’re involved in risky behavior. So, unless you really love the stirrups, you might be able to get away with going less often!

        • MygnBg

          When you say “really love stirrups” are you referring to going to the dr, or engaging in risky behavior? ;)

      • KK

        But not all internists are equal. I don’t have one (but I’m married to a doctor, if that helps?) and haven’t needed antibiotics or anything for years. I do go to ob/gyn annually. But anyway, my mother has a regular internist. In the past few years, though, she has only been able to get quick appointments with Physician Assistants. However, she can go to the local urgent care place and see an actual doctor with no appointment. So… which is better? Now, she needs to get a new doctor and I’ve been on her about it for a while now, but I have heard that this over-reliance on PAs is becoming very prevalent because of changes in health insurance reimbursements for office visits. My former dermatologist started using them in the same manner. I have nothing against PAs and I think there is a role for them, but this is a situation where honestly you are better off going to urgent care (the PA who saw my mom gave her a very poorly thought out rx for a specific course of antibiotics that my husband was shocked by b/c it’s contrary to the standard dosing that you could find by just googling). I don’t mean to suggest that all PAs are poorly trained, but they are not doctors. And going to your doctor’s PA is, in my opinion, no better than going to an unfamiliar doctor at urgent care, especially if there is no actual oversight by your doctor.

        I guess my point is: just because you have an internist doesn’t mean you’ll get to see the actual doctor when you have a sinus infection. Do some research about the office and see if you can get recs from friends who are happy with their PCPs.

    • Bluejay

      An internist is the same (essentially) as a general practitioner, family doctor, primary care doctor, or whatever else you call the guy you go to for your annual physical and your flu shot.

  13. Honeycrisp

    “Whoa!” (said in my best Joey Lawrence voice) I am wearing these shoes today, except mine are grey patent and I bought them at Saks Off 5th about 2 or 3 years ago.

  14. Blonde Lawyer

    On the morning thread, “Latina” posted something about Hispanic being an ethnicity and not a race. That got me thinking. Ex-boyfriend is Spanish and Puerto Rican (as in ancestors from Spain and Puerto Rico) and good friend is Columbian. Both hate to be mislabeled. For example, if someone referred to them as Guatemalan or Mexican. Likewise, I feel like it would be rude to refer to someone who is Chinese as Japanese. So, in the rare circumstances where someone’s ethnicity is relevant, I default to Hispanic or Asian as opposed to Mexican or Chinese. Is this more offensive???

    Side note – I once got really good advice to try to never have to describe someone. Inevitably, you will say something insulting. So if Joe says, I have to meet Linda at Court but never met her, what does she look like? You are probably going to fail if even the true description is “well, she is kind of overweight, has frizzy hair, and likes to wear a lot of neon.” I’m not sure of a good way to get out of it but I was told to just avoid having to go there.

    • SF Bay Associate

      I’m willing to be corrected on all of this, but I’m under the impression that “Hispanic” is not an accepted term because it refers to Spanish colonization and all the historical horrific tragedies that their arrival brought. It is a term imposed by white colonizers on that region of the world, like “Oriental” on Asians, a term which I find offensive. At least out in California, my impression is that the generic term for a person from Central or Southern America is “Latino/a,” as that previous poster chose to identify herself. From Latino/a friends, I am also under the impression that it is appropriate to refer to Central or Southern Americans as part of “La Raza.” Note that someone who is Spanish is not “Latino/a” nor part of “La Raza.”

      As for Linda, maybe say she’s got brown hair and she’s shorter than me. Facts.

      • Anony for this

        Watch out for using La Raza in casual conversation/usage. It can definitely get some insanely strong reactions from people (for reasons that I find frankly silly). Anyway, just a heads up.

      • CA lawyer

        It’s way better to use Hispanic/Latina then guess at a country; just don’t say Latina with a heavy Spanish accent if you don’t normally have a heavy Spanish accent. Hispanics/Latinos can be of any race, so both words are more useful as cultural descriptors than descriptors of appearance. I’m mixed and am pretty happy (in the few instances where its relevant) to be acknowledged as Hispanic or Latina and my other heritage, instead of just one or the other. Others may prefer Hispanic or Latina depending on politics and culture.

        I don’t like the term la raza because of the direct translation to English and because of its political connotations.

        • So Anony

          I know this is terrible, but I’d be more okay with people guessing countries/nationalities if they didn’t always go with such obvious ones. I mean — they always guess Mexican or Chinese. They never guess Ecauadorian, or Uruguayan, or Chilean, or Laotian, or whatever. Its such boring and predictable ignorance. At least be creative!

      • Coalea

        I recently heard a story on NPR about how immigrants and descendants of immigrants from Latin America self-identify. The data come from a survey done by the Pew Hispanic Center and results include:

        “Hispanic” or “Latino”? Most don’t care—but among those who do, “Hispanic” is preferred. Half (51%) say they have no preference for either term. When a preference is expressed, “Hispanic” is preferred over “Latino” by more than a two-to-one margin—33% versus 14%.

        See here for the full results:
        http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/04/when-labels-dont-fit-hispanics-and-their-views-of-identity/

        • Ada Doom Starkadder

          Wow, color me “confused!”

          Wasn’t someone in the earlier thread today taking issue with the use of the word “Hispanic” and giving out examples of famous people to google to determine whether they should be called “Hispanic” or not? (That in itself seemed confusing. )

    • Ex-sociologist lawyer

      So, Latina is certainly right, Latina/Latino/Hispanic are all general terms to refer to a linguistic socio-cultural group forming the peoples generally coming from the Spanish colonies in the New World. They can range in race from people who would read as “white” (who have little or no native blood in their family tree) to people who read as “black” (people who descend from slaves brought to the colonies) to people who you might classify as “brown” (people who generally descend from the native tribes or a mix of the colonists and the native tribes).

      But, I’ve known few if any people coming from these group who — if you are genuinely trying to describe someone and you don’t know their country of origin — would take great offense at having Hispanic used as a generalized term. Its certainly better than using Mexican! But it is better to use specific nationality (I think) if you know it about the person.

      I have found that sometimes the lengths people go to to avoid using racial descriptors can end up being more awkward than if you just used it in the first place.

      • cfm

        I think the offense came not only from the term hispanic, but there was no reason to identify him by “race.” The only thing it added to the story was an attempt to highlight how the fact that he didn’t murder her was all the more suprising.

        • Ex-sociologist lawyer

          Sorry, I wasn’t really addressing this mornings thread. I was more discussing Blonde Lawyer’s particular need to describe someone who a colleague (perhaps) has never met before — like a client — where the most helpful or obvious descriptor would be race. It can stick out like a sore thumb if you don’t include it in those situations.

          I generally exclude race or ethnicity if unnecessary though — for all the reasons shown in the morning thread. I understood why people were upset about it.

        • Come on!

          “The only thing it added to the story was an attempt to highlight how the fact that he didn’t murder her was all the more suprising.”

          Disagree completely. I thought she was trying to describe the scene. I’m not sure why it was more offensive than saying a middle-aged asian woman approached the car, or a short blond man.

          As a side note? I’m going to be super annoyed if all this hullabaloo makes Ru go back on Corporette hiatus :(

          • Ex-sociologist lawyer

            Look, I understand why Ru used it and I understand why people got upset (and generally I hope Ru doesn’t go away. Hi Ru, I lurv you!)

            The reason people got upset is because of the loaded meaning imbued with “Hispanic man” in society that is not imbued with “middle aged asian women” or “short blond white man” (which noticeably lacked a racial descriptor in your story). Its inherently a position of privilege to deny that there IS a more negative and threatening racial meaning imbued in Hispanic man then there is in other racial groups (I think the same reaction would have been raised to the racial descriptors black or as someone pointed out, if someone else had described him as muslim).

            I think its an easy thing to do, but its also something you should be sensitive to when functioning in society. And overall, it didn’t wildly detract from my enjoyment of Ru’s story (which was a fascinating sociological study in and of itself) but might have if I was of that social group. I guess that’s all people were saying.

          • Ada Doom Starkadder

            Yes, but one way of getting rid of loaded terms is to use them in a non-loaded way, which one could argue that Ru didn’t (by throwing in the stranger-murder aspect.)

            Making words taboo doesn’t make them go away, it only makes them more powerful. As an Asian woman, I could get ticked off at people who misapply the wrong type of Asian identity to me, but that’s more for presumptuousness. But I *am* Asian, my parents came from a country in East Asia, so it’s accurate. Even the term “Oriental,” which means Eastern, is in itself is not actually offensive, when we dig into the etymology– it’s the counterpart to “Occidental,” which means Western.

            The problem with Oriental is that it’s most often used by ignorant, generally creepy older men who are all like: “ooh, you’re an Oriental girl, can I get a sponge bath from you and a little massage with chicken flied lice?”

            But just because ignorant people use a term to be offensive doesn’t make the term itself offensive. If it’s used by people in a respectful way, it’s not a problem to me.

          • Ex-sociologist lawyer

            I don’t disagree. But I also don’t think it helps to simply deny the reality of the problem that using “hispanic male” has different meaning then “asian women”. And certainly I don’t think it helps to tell people who are of those groups that they just shouldn’t “care” about it. Which sort of happened this morning.

    • Gigi

      I always kind of wrinkle my face (or try and convey that sort of facial expression in my voice) and say something like, “I want to say they are x [or look like x], but I’m not sure I’m 100% correct.” Wishy-washy? Perhaps. But it hopefully takes the edge off in situations where you might have to describe someone.

      • Digby

        I know this post will end up in the wrong place, but to Ada Doom Starkadder: I love your name! Thanks for the”Cold Comfort Farm” reminder.

        • Ada Doom Starkadder

          Thanks, but now I’ll embarrass myself by guessing the origin of your name wrong.

          Someone mentioned a Heinlein novel earlier, and there’s a character with the surname Digby in it (I can’t remember the first name, it’s been too long.) My other guess is that awesome golden retriever on Pushing Daisies. (I hope you don’t get offended that I’m wondering if you’d pick a pet’s name. I love dogs, so that’s why I thought of that Digby.)

          • Digby

            Not offended at all – it actually is the name of my mythical dog, named after Digby, Nova Scotia! And now I have to check out Pushing Daisies, if there’s an awesome golden!

    • anon

      I generally default to race or ethnicity. I don’t see it as offensive but I’m white so what do I know.

    • Moonstone

      There is a brand-new survey on this (what term people prefer) by the Pew Research Center. My anecdotal experience bears out the same result, which is that people would prefer to be identified by the country of origin (Her parents are from Nicaragua; the scientist is Mexican; she likes to vote for other Puerto Ricans, etc.) if at all possible.

      As a white lady, I often have to think of it this way: My parents came from a European country, but it would be odd for someone to characterize me that way; more likely, they would call me “Irish-American.” That label carries far more information than just “European.” People tend to feel more respected when they are not just lumped in with a big group. But, if you don’t know enough about the nation of origin or it’s a mixed group, I think “Hispanic” is generally viewed as respectful.

      • mamabear

        I’m originally from Central CA where there is a significant Latino/Latina population.

        I was describing a new colleague as “a Mexican” (because he’s a Mexican citizen & works in Mexico city) and my sister said “Shhhh!” like I was making a racial slur

        Pretty sad.

        • TCFKAG

          Ah, this is where nuance becomes so complicated, but I’ve always felt that “Mexican” or “from Mexico” is better then “a Mexican” when using nationality as a descriptor (like the difference between Chinese or “a Chinese” which I’ve heard people use and definitely sounds wrong to me.) But I also think this may be partially because there is a significant minority of people in this country who do use “a Mexican” as essentially a slur.

          • TCFKAG

            This is why English is a terrible, imprecise language!!!!!! haha. But seriously, some nationalities go better with an then others, you wouldn’t say a French would you (or you might say a frenchie, but it wouldn’t be polite).

          • mamabear

            (Actually, I said, “We’ve hired a Mexican actuary.”

            it sounds a little better in context.)

          • TCFKAG

            Indeed, it does sound better in context.

            Also — this is why people have so much trouble learning English. But that’s neither here nor there. For example, you COULD say a Brit but it would be weird to say an English but you could say he’s English. In the romance languages, this is all much clearer.

          • nona

            @ anon – actually I think there is even controversy about that, since technically, an American could be anyone in North America, Central America, or South America – so Canadian, Brazilian, etc… and yes, there is no other really good word in the English language (Spanish has a much better system for making adjectives out of proper nouns).

    • Brazilian

      For my 2 cents, Latino is a broader term than Hispanic. Hispanic means Spanish-speaking peoples, whereas Latino/a refers to all Latin Americans. I believe that very technically, Latino/a can be applied to persons who are native speakers of any Romance language, although no one uses it to mean this.

    • Mary

      RACE IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT!!!! IT IS NOT A FACT. AND HISPANICS MAY IDENTIFY AS WHITE OR BLACK AND THERE IS NO ONE THING THAT MAKES THEM WHITE OR BLACK.

  15. Hurting Puppy

    I am middle aged and have been married for 14 years to someone who I have been with for 20 years. My parents used to be very close to my husband, and treated him as a son, and my husband treated my parents as his own. Over the past couple of years, my parents’ relationship with my husband has completely deteriorated, and I am caught in the middle. My husband now accuses me of being married to my parents, and my parents want me to divorce my husband. I am caught in the middle. I can’t pinpoint exactly what has caused this situation (have I?), and I am caught in the middle. Even if I could figure out the cause, I feel powerless to resolve the situation without losing my relationship with one side or the other. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this or have any words of wisdom other than “get therapy”?

      • Hurting Puppy

        The short answer is that I think that there was a conversation that I was not present at where words were exchanged and yelling took place that neither side can forgive. I don’t know exactly what was said, but it happened when I was out of town and my parents invited my husband over for dinner (this is the kind of people my parents are and how they used to treat my husband). I am pretty sure it had to do with my husband’s career direction.

        I just tried to call my husband and ask him the words that he can’t forgive, but he is on his way into a meeting now and can’t talk. I am sure he told me at one point, but I have forgotten. I will try to post it when I find out. This may be a good first step in resolution.

        • SF Bay Associate

          My two cents – your husband is obviously very upset and needs to feel like you are on his side. Don’t ask him to recount this conversation with your parents over the phone while you are both at work. YOU might be ready to hear about it rightthissecond, but that’s not really giving this issue the gravitas I think it deserves. It’s kinda worse that he may have told you at one point, but you don’t remember… this is really important to him. You need to really focus on this important interview. Do it in person. Turn off the electronics, sit down, look at him, and let him tell you what happened, from his perspective. As others said, don’t make any commentary, don’t ask questions that indicate any opinion or perspective. Just, ” Can you tell me more about what you just said?” or “I want to be sure I understand. Can you help me do that will more detail about what you mean when you said “quote”?” Let him tell you what happened, and let him see how important it is to you that you really understand, and that you are on his side.

          You are on team Mr. and Mrs. Hurting Puppy, not team Hurting Puppy’s parents.

          • SF Bay Associate

            Ugh, not the most well written of my comments. Running out of Pomodoro break time!

          • Ada Doom Starkadder

            Agreed. If your parents have gotten to the point where they told him (even if it was said in the nicest way possible) that they think he should have a different career, then they are way too enmeshed.

            Boundaries – heartily echoed.

          • CW

            Agreed about sitting down with your husband and giving this your full attention. He’s telling you that you are choosing your parents instead of him – you need to show him that you’re not.

            And, another thought about your parents in general – do they tend to be nosy or generally intrusive with others that you probably barely notice because you’re so used to it? At first I disagreed with Ada Doom Starkadder’s comment about parents inquiring about career paths (my parents would ask benign questions), but then I realized that they obviously must have harping on it for the dinner to dissolve into harsh words and yelling because 1) your husband and parents previously got along, and 2) you haven’t given any indication that your husband has a bad temper and would easily lose his cool over this.

    • Boundaries

      Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Presumably you want to save your relationship with your husband (right) but you need to make clear that it can’t come at the cost of completely cutting off contact with your parents. So you need to talk to him in concrete terms about what scope of contact he’s able to have.

      Then you need to have essentially the same conversation with your parents. Explain that you’re committed to your marriage and need to begin working on that — and that will require some boundaries. And that they can’t suggest you divorce your husband anymore, that’s a deal breaker (note, I’m assuming there’s no abuse here and that your parents aren’t right).

      Um…and therapy. I understand that you said other than get therapy, but couples therapy would probably help.

      • CW

        I agree about setting boundaries. Assuming that you do not actually want to divorce your husband, you have to tell your parents to back off. It is hugely inappropriate for them to tell you to divorce your husband unless he is doing something truly awful. And you have to tell your husband that your parents are your parents, and you care for them, and don’t want to cut them out of your life, and he needs to stop being so difficult. Obviously all of this is easier said than done. I *do* think you need individual therapy to figure out how to say this.

        Without knowing the situation it’s hard to say who is right or wrong, so just my two cents: You’re allowing your parents to have way too much influence in your marriage. You married your husband and presumably have thought of yourselves as a “team”. BE a team and put your husband first/above your parents. That does not mean agreeing with him if he’s in the wrong, but it’s about making sure that he knows that you love and support him, and that you are a united front. No more discussing him with your parents — do not open the door for your parents to offer an opinion on him — and if they start in on him, end the conversation. Conversely, being a team means that your husband has to back you up in your continued relationship with your parents. He doesn’t have to like them/visit with you/see them, but he needs to get off your case about it.

        I know that you feel powerless, but really, you’re not. It’s never easy to redefine a relationship with someone (especially people like our parents), but if you *let* them, your parents will be the end of your marriage.

    • ESQuared

      My parents are a little like this. My dad will not step in the way of my mom helping my grandmother with an emergency– but he sees social calls as wholly unnecessary & frankly, I think he gets jealous & acts like a bratty child when my mom spends time with my grandmother socially (which is a few times a week). When my parents were younger, they got along great with my grandmother– my dad even lived with her for a while when my mom was out of the country.
      My mom just deals by limiting the interaction between the 2. While holidays are non-negotiable for her coming over, pretty much the rest of the year she goes over to visit when my dad is busy doing something else or at work (it helped to get him into his own hobby– he now goes & works on building a computer with a bunch of guys for fun). Anyway, I totally feel for you– I think it’s really immature when my dad does this & I want to yell at him that he should be acting like an adult.

    • sadie

      So hard to say anything useful without knowing more. Are there tensions between your husband and parents? Was there some disagreement? Why, for heaven’s sake, do your parents want you to get a divorce?

      To the extent that I can give advice, it’s this: you can’t control whether your parents like your husband — all you can control is your own reaction. So when Mom says, “Honey, you would be so much happier if you divorced that man,” you say, “Mom, I love my husband and I won’t listen to you badmouth him. If you keep talking about this, I’m going to hang up the phone. I love you too. Now let’s talk about last night’s American Idol!” She replies, “But honey, you need to divorce him.” And you say, “Mom, we just discussed this. This is inappropriate and I won’t discuss it. Let’s talk again as soon as you’re ready to not discuss my marriage.” And hang up.

      Caveat: this is easier to implement when you sit them down first and say, “You clearly have a problem with my husband. I need to know why.” If they are seeing something you’re not (abuse, cheating, alcoholism, something that you don’t know about), you need to know that. But if this is just a distaste thing, you are within your rights to cut off discussion.

    • GovtMom

      I would start with your husband: ask him, what does “married to my parents” mean to him? Does he think they’re too involved in your life? Does he think that you are closer to them than to him? It sounds like tensions are high so this will likely be hard, but in this step, you should just LISTEN. Don’t respond to his statements. Just hear him out, get a handle on what he thinks is going on. Then ask him, why did his relationship with your parents deteriorate? Did something happen? Again, hear him out.

      Next step: parents. IMO, unless they see him abusing you, they are totally over the line in wanting you to divorce him. They need to stop saying that, and tone down their end of the mess. Once they’re calmer, I would ask them why their relationship with your husband deteriorated to the point that they dislike him so strongly. I would not dignify their demand that you divorce him; it’s not their place to say something like that absent some really, really compelling circumstances.

      I’m just skimming this post and know next to zero about your life. But from what you’ve written here, it sounds like some distance from your parents may be very healthy. They are clearly crossing boundaries by asking you to divorce. Who knows what other boundaries they have crossed. Who knows what your husband’s part in all of this is. It does surprise me that you’re not aware of anything happening.

      And yeah, you do need to look into therapy for both of you. It sounds like you’re going to need a neutral third party to hash through this mess and figure out what to do.

    • In DC

      This sounds terrible and truly bizarre, as it doesn’t seem to have stemmed from anything in particular. I’m so sorry they are both putting you in this position. There are weird things between my parents and my siblings and among my siblings and I am the only neutral party. It is horrible. I don’t have great advice, other than be very explicit to both parties that you are on nobody’s side but your own. Don’t let one side bad-mouth the other to you, or even talk about them at all, e.g., “I am in charge of *my* relationship with my husband, not your relationship with my husband. You need to manage that on your own.”

      If they still won’t shut down, I use the technique of going completely silent. I mean completely. No noises of encouragement or “I hear you.” It is awkward and takes a while to develop. It usually takes the other person (*cough* my dad *cough*) a good five minutes to even notice. When they ask, “Are you still there?” the answer is a curt, “Yes, I’m still here.” This is for the phone obviously, but silence works in person as well…and as a bonus is even more awkward. Joy.

      This is not a long-term solution for your situation, but will buy you some time to seek other solutions. I can’t tell if you’re not interested in therapy, but couples therapy might not be a bad idea, if only to have a safe space to have this hugely emotional discussion with your husband.

      Best of luck in navigating this sh!tty situation.

  17. Bonnie

    Mini rant. I’ve just been told to pony up $10 for lunch for our paralegals for admin professionals day. It’s not much money but most of our paralegals are horrible and and now they’ll do even less work with this funded 2-3 hour lunch.

      • KS

        It used to be called Secretary’s Day, but that’s now considered sexist or demeaning. As if a change of title makes a difference!!!

  18. KinCA

    Question: Does an internship count towards your years of experience in your field?

    I’ve been in my industry full time for 2.5 years, but prior to graduating from college I interned with the company I’m now employed with for 18 months. I worked full time over the summers (6 months of the 18) and part-time when I was in school. I’m considering applying for a position that asks for 3-4 years of experience in the industry and I’m wondering how I should qualify my years of experience in my cover letter.

    Thanks!

    • TCFKAG

      I like to think it does, but my experience is employers generally don’t buy my pitch. But apply — you never know.

    • viv

      I think it counts! My job asked for one to two years of experience in the industry, and I only had a couple of internships under my belt, but I got the job even so. Often, the number of years in the industry is a general guideline anyway. I say go for it!

    • Coalea

      I don’t think it technically qualifies, but think you could still apply – just be clear about how much of your experience is “real” work and how much was interning. If I were the hiring manager I might be willing to wiggle on the requirement, but I would be hella pissed if an applicant misrepresented herself.

    • Jax

      I wouldn’t think twice about it. Job postings are best case wish lists, not checklists that you have to meet (other then licenses/security clearance type things)

      “I have been working in the fillintheblank industry for 4 years.” That’s it. No qualifiers, no equivocation.

      Good luck!

    • PharmaGirl

      Technically, no, it doesn’t count but that wouldn’t stop me from applying for the position. Besides, 2.5 years of experience is not all that different from 3-4 years. I would include the information in a cover letter as succinctly as possible with the major focus on your full time employment in the industry.

    • Bluejay

      If I were reading your resume I’d count it. I think the general rule is that two years of an internship is roughly as good as one year working full-time. But anyway, 2.5 years is close enough to 3 that I don’t think it will matter.

    • S

      I always include my internship in years of experience. A lot of times they will ask you to specify how many hours/week you worked at a job so as long as you are honest about that it should be a problem and no one should feel mis-lead.

  19. Monday

    One more for our running IRL troll-watch:

    “These shorts have sharks on them, but with tights and booties, they’re great for client dinners.”

    Lucky, May 2012, p. 56. Don’t we all wish our clients were that cool.

      • Monday

        Ah…I tried to find it online, but it isn’t up (or, isn’t up yet). It’s a marketing rep from Roxy, who shares our advanced age of 30, wearing a pair of shorts that I might call deep mint green, with a black print depicting sharks. Res ipsa locquitur.

    • TCFKAG

      Well…what industry are we talking. Creative fields maybe?

      Okay, even then…I’m not sure shark shorts with tights and booties is going to inspire much professional confidence.

    • NOLA

      I saw that and thought it was totally crazy. While the women they interview for those pages are usually dressed in interesting and fashion-forward ways, this month they were all dressed in a way that I thought was totally out there.

      • Architect

        Yes, I saw that too. They work for a fashion company, so it’s a bit different. Any good suggestions for more grown up fashion mags? I am thinking about dropping my subscription to Lucky because it’s demographic is so much younger than me. I’m 42. But I have not found other fashion mags I like. I get better fashion and beauty advice from Corporette! I do love glossy mags though…

    • 30

      Ha! I will say, though, I was delighted to open the latest issue of Lucky and see Kat quoted on interview wear. Go Kat!

  20. Anon

    Could really use some advice. DH is up for a promotion and had an interview last week. He has been constantly thinking about the outcome since then. He looked back today at the thank you email he sent to the interviewer afterwards and found there was a minor typo (two words repeated). He is completely devastated because he knows that the interviewer’s pet peeve is typos from job applicants. No word yet on the outcome of the interview, but he is convinced he will not get the job because of the typo. Any words of advice I can use to help him? Also, if you could cross your fingers that he would get the job, I would appreciate that, too.

    Thanks.

    • Monday

      Tell him that repeating the same word twice is one of the most commonly unnoticed errors/visual tricks; I remember reading that as an actual research finding. It’s very likely that the recipient of this note missed it for exactly the same reason your husband did. Good luck to him!

      Also–but don’t relay this part until he hears he got the job–spellcheck can prevent this from happening again.

    • Coalea

      I think there’s a difference between a job applicant and a promotion candidate, in that (hopefully) the latter will be given more latitude than the former. Also, I think there’s a difference between a repeated word and a spelling/grammatical error.

      Hopefully all the other great things that your DH has done to bring him to this point will overshadow a minor error in a thank you note.

      My fingers are crossed – and I’m a militant member of Camp No Typos, so if you’ve won me over, you’re halfway home :)

  21. Jennifer

    This doctor talk has me wondering: at what point would you consider seeing a dermatologist for anti-aging stuff? I have for-real smile lines and some fine lines even when my face is standing still. Wise to go early-ish, or just silly? I’m 34, fwiw.

    • AIMS

      I am 30 and I went last year. I think there are 2 kinds of derms – the people who inject you with botox and the genuine doctors. I looked for a genuine doc. She gave me a prescription for Retin A and looked at all my moles. I’m glad I went.

    • 30

      I’m planning on going to see someone once I start my new job in the fall, mainly to see if Retin-A is right for me.

  22. l

    I know i posted about this late yesterday, but wamt to share…..came to the conclusion Sunday that my drinking is problematic, not in a getting arrested/getting fired kind of way, but in a “I hate myself because I get $hitfaced at home on many weeknights and feel like crap the whole next day” and “I always am ‘that girl” who gets invited, for being ‘fun,’ rallies the troops, but realizes the next day I blacked out most of it and have to stralthily figure out wtf happened.” Most of my life problems have been alcohol related. I posted late yesterday about my first booze free day in a long time. I was really touched by the supportie comments. Day 2 on the wagon is drawing to an end. Long freaking evenings …

    Most of my colleagues and people senior to me are probably categorized as problem drinkers, so I feel too normal/functional for meetings (judge me if you will, but I work very hard and have built a very solid reputation in my practice area and in child centered nonprofits areas where a stigma of alcoholism would not be well received. I cannot risk this.). it will be veeeeeery awkward bc of stigma if people feel like they have to accommodate me or if there is an “alcoholic” label. (the threshold for bad drinking behavior is so high that you have to be reeeerrallllly f-Ed up to be considered a problem drinker in this circle). I am very strong willed, but it is still hard to be around it!

    Not sure whati am looking for, but cannot really level with anyone irl, and most of the online forums are just too dark. Thankful to have this community to just vent to anonymously.

    • Monday

      Sending lots of support your way. I don’t have any wisdom, really, because I only know people who are either a) non-problem drinkers, or b) very obvious, far-gone alcoholics who refuse to reflect on or change anything. So I have never had a relationship with someone like you as you describe yourself. However, Carolyn Hax did a column recently in which someone wrote in saying she’d given up drinking for Lent and decided to stop permanently, and said she was having issues with friends and coworkers as a result. You might want to look it up for advice, it sounded somewhat like what you’re describing.

    • TCFKAG

      One suggestion if you don’t want to go to a meeting, but do want someone to talk to, your employer probably provides a confidential “Employee Support Program” or something through your health insurance which will give you a referral to a confidential counselor. Someone just to talk it out with.

      But congrats. Day by day!

    • Govtgrrl

      I was a blackout, drunk at home alone type of law student. I never considered myself an alcoholic but I definitely had a problem with alcohol. I never went to rehab or AA or any type of program but I eventually grew out of it. I don’t have any words of advice but know that you are not alone.

    • CW

      I’m happy for you that you’re taking this step. Congrats on day 2! I have been there in terms of wanting to drink less but hanging out with a crowd that drinks heavily. One “excuse” to give to people to avoid any sort of stigma — although no one should feel stigmatized because they choose to not drink — is that you’re trying to lose some weight/get healthier and your nutritionist told you to cut out alcohol for a few months. Or, that you’re trying to start a morning workout routine and you won’t drink because it upsets your stomach in the morning.

      It might be best for you to avoid going out with your colleagues for a few weeks, until you feel more in control.

      • Anon for this

        One thing, the people who are most actively pressuring you to drink? Probably have drinking problems/issues themselves. I know that was definitely me and I’m ashamed of it now, but I would be the one buying rounds, heckling people to keep drinking…because if they stopped then I had to stop and that was just not in my plan!

        There is a stigma associated with not drinking, for many reasons, but mostly I think because the people who drink heavily need to have others with them so they don’t have to face their own problem.

        For me, I had some embarrassing memories, some even more embarrassing lacks of memories, and though 90% of the time I am happy cheerful gregarious drunk, the chance of having one of the 10% angry, bully, overdramatic drunks outweighs the fun of the 90%.

        • Anon

          This, so very much, reminds me of many years of my life in a cringe-worthy way. Worse were the 2 college years when my substance abuse extended way beyond alcohol. If there was a way to wipe my memory clean of that time of my life, I would.

      • Moonstone

        I just read all the comments on this thread and now am weepy at work because this space boosts my faith in humanity. Now, on to practical matters. Fake drink makes sense during this transition period, but sometimes it’s better to get a cover story. Start talking about joining Weight Watchers (“the drinks aren’t worth the points”) or thnk about saying you are on some medication that means you cannot have alcohol. It’s stupid to have to lie, but that’s the way it might be for a while.

        It won’t be long before you become aware that you probably cannot hang out much with people who are drinking. I posted yesterday about my dear friend, who stopped drinking around age 28. One of the mantras he learned at AA was: “If you don’t want to slip, don’t go where it’s slippery.” I think about that all the time, when I am trying to prevent bad choices.

    • Anon

      Congrats for recognizing that there is a problem. I have no advice since my problem was solved indirectly by getting pregnant and having no choice but to quit. I still have to keep the alcohol out of the house or I will drink it all.

    • Anon

      I went through something similar a few years ago where I decided to stop drinking because I felt like I was saying too many stupid, embarrassing things when I was drunk (that would always be brought up days later) and I was tired of waking up headachy/bloated/dehydrated from drinking. One of the first things I discovered was that a lot of social events, especially those that involve drinking, are really, really boring if you’re not drinking. The conversations get increasingly less interesting the more other people have to drink. Eventually, I started opting out of those social events altogether. I took up a few healthy things (I started doing a lot of martial arts and running), and I would opt out of drinking events by saying that I had to go to bed early because I had a long run in the morning or I couldn’t drink that night because I had a martial arts class the next day. Eventually the healthy things started to play a much larger role in my life than drinking. Plus exercising and eating right makes you not want to drink anyway — nothing ruins a good day of being healthy quite like a night of drinking.

      Anyway, I think it’s awesome that you’re making this choice for yourself. I’d just call it a healthy choice and hopefully your co-workers will respect you for it (even if they nag you about it anyway).

    • CA Atty

      I know exactly what you’re talking about. I didn’t see your previous post but I can completely relate. I wouldn’t say that I go as far as you today, but in my first year of practice I certainly was on the “fun, drunking, party professionals” wagon. (Hah, I meant to type “drinking” but it’s such an apt typo I’m leaving it.) We did most of our blotto evenings on the weekends, the only girl who was really a weekday drunk also had a rather intense coke habit and I just couldn’t keep up with her without one! My brother also definitely has a drinking problem (i.e. been arrested several times, including one DUI, has been on several-days-long binges, etc…) although he is highly educated and has always held down very good jobs.

      The one thing that I have done on occasion (2x/month average) that I’m trying to cut down is being able to drink an entire bottle of wine in an evening.

      Anyway, the point of my comment is a) you’re not alone. Also, b) tricks of the trade.

      One, get sparkly water on ice with a lime for a drink every other drink (or whenever you can get to the bartender alone). Last time I did this I actually had a whole bottle of sparkly water that the bartender gave me, so I hid it in my purse and just kept refreshing my “drink” every time it got low. A couple people asked if I was drinking sprite or water with that disapproving tone of voice, and I just grinned and threw back “gin and tonic, natch!” It keeps up the appearance, the trust, and the party and doesn’t single you out. Before I tried this trick I never thought it would work, now I’m a devotee. Depending on how hardcore you are you could also say that it’s vodka (with a lemon instead of a lime) and that way NOBODY will ask to try your drink. If they do just say you’re coming down with a cold and don’t want to get them sick. You can do this with soda as well.

      Another “trick” I’ve used is to figure out what alcohol you can drink that has the lowest alcohol content and drink that as watered down in a drink as you feel comfortable ordering. This seems silly, but one thing I realized is that I drink a lot when I go out just to have something to do and because I’m very thirsty. I never INTEND to get drunk. I also noticed one day as I was perusing the menu/labels for the beer with the highest alcohol content that I could also do the opposite. In other words, instead of drinking long islands, have tall single midori or amaretto sours.

      Finally, the simplest, at least if you’re me, order a glass of ice water and refill at LEAST every other drink if not every drink. This is very obvious to the people you’re drinking with, but you can brush it off with not wanting to be hung over or trying to stay hydrated, or starting out feeling a little dehydrated, etc…For me this was huge because I realized I was drinking more drinks than the others in my party just because (see above) I was bored/hot. By adding in ice water I had something to do when bored/hot and still was able to party and stay with the group.

      In regards to meetings, I’m assuming you mean AA. First, they are supposed to be anonymous. Also, it doesn’t sound like anyone you’re talking about in this post would ever attend one. So you shouldn’t have to be too concerned. If you still are, what about finding one far from your work/home? I don’t believe you have to use your real name and I know you don’t have to/not supposed to use your last name. You could also join an online group like: http://www.aa-intergroup.org/ (I just googled it, don’t know much about it, you could probably find something tailored to you.)

      Sorry, I know this is long. But finally, if you think you have a problem, you probably do. At least a little one. Just like with anything, though, it doesn’t have to be super-serious “I MAY BE AN ALCOHOLIC!!!!” Someone who eats too many twinkies has a problem just like someone who eats too many carrots and turns orange. The problem is really in the lack of moderation. Try to be moderate, reasonable, don’t drink alone for a while, and see how you feel. If you can exercise that willpower, maybe you don’t have a serious problem. If you can’t, maybe you do and need to get more significant help.

      • a.

        +3 billion on having a “fake drink.” I was an extremely functional, but in retrospect very very problematic, drinker in college–I blacked out frequently, was rarely not hungover Friday/Saturday/Sunday, made some extremely bad choices that I was lucky to survive, etc etc etc. Even nights when I didn’t mean to get tanked, I would, because I didn’t want to seem uncool by not having a drink in my hand. Solution for me was Solo cups full of water, ginger ale, or Sprite. Absolutely no one ever commented, except when they caught me at the kitchen sink, in which case I would say something like “Oh, don’t want a hangover, going to the bar as soon as I finish this!” and they would wobble off to harass someone else.

        Post-graduation, my nailed-on excuse is “I’m driving home.” If someone wants to be a jerk about stopping after one drink, when I’ve said I have to drive (unless they follow that up with “You can crash on my couch if you want to drink more”), they are not someone whose opinion I need to care about. Depending on the seriousness of my training, I’ve also used the long run excuse, and have gotten minimal flak for that as well.

        OP, I saw your post earlier but didn’t have time to comment–but you are not alone. It takes an incredible amount of strength to admit that you have a problem, and then take steps to get yourself to a better place. I am pulling for you. If you’re finding the long, empty evenings problematic, please consider finding something healthy that will fill them. For me it was ramping back up my running; for you it could be anything.

    • Anonymous

      Just want to say thank you for posting and thank you to everyone for giving advice/thoughts. I feel like I’m in the same situation and it’s good to hear from others since like the OP, I don’t feel like I could talk about this to anyone.

      • a.

        Didn’t before but will now plug for AA. I have never been to a meeting (should have when I was in college; even got far enough to look up meeting times, but always wussed out) but my father went for a while, when he was struggling with semi-problematic-but-not-full-blown alcoholism, and credits AA with completely changing his relationship with alcohol.

        There are absolutely people you can talk to about this, Anonymous, OP, and I, if you think that would be a source of support for you; you just have to be brave enough to reach out to them.

    • Ada Doom Starkadder

      l, I am sorry you’re fighting this. One of my best friends in the world, a really good guy, battled this for years, but finally got it under control. His life is not perfect, but it is so much better and he is totally present in it all. I think that you’ll get there, too.

      You’ve realized that there’s a problem, and that you want it to stop. That is huge. I’m not trying to diminish this burden that you’re working under, but in so many things with human nature and human behavior, we can’t fix things until we realize something is wrong, and all too often, that realization never happens. So you’re already ahead of the curve.

      I can completely understand how hard it is to be around it, when you’ve just realized that yes, you want to not drink so much, and yet everybody is choking it down like the Apocalypse is coming in the next hour. I don’t know your workplace, but do the others pressure you to drink? And, if you’ve decided that you’re drinking too much and want to stop, it’s very hard to try to limit yourself to just one in these circumstances…

      Not sure how you feel about this, and even posting this admittedly makes me feel queasy, because it does involve a lie, mostly a harmless lie, but still a lie. If there is pressure, could you perhaps tell them that you’ve got some stomach problems that have developed and have to swear off alcohol for awhile until it clears up? It might at least buy you some time, so you can avoid being pressured (so much) to “come’on, have just one…”

      Extra big hugs. I’m glad you feel safe here, I do, too, and have posted any number of daft things and my kooky opinions without feeling opprobrium or like I was being ignored. Keep us posted, and we’ll keep on cheering for you, no matter what!

    • Anon

      AA is anonymous. No one has to know. They keep confidentiality. I’d try a couple meetings.

    • BEEN THERE

      I have been sober over 15 years and still go to AA. I was afraid to go to meetings at the beginning but then I realized that is was better to be in recovery and get help than it was when I was “that girl” who routinely had black-outs. I don’t think it was much of a secret but I completely understand your predicament. In the end, I needed AA for many reasons, mostly to learn to cope with who I was, and how to deal with stress relief. In some ways, being sober was harder in the beginning that when I was drunk. I know there are many people who are able to stay stopped drinking without AA and are happy – if you can do it, good for you! Some people get help in therapy or church – good for them! Some stay stopped without help, but remain angry and dry – but truth be told, I have been an angry member of AA during some periods of my recovery. And there are those who try to stay sober for a little while and after years of stopping and starting, they come to AA. I honestly hope that if you are not able to stay sober that you don’t end up hurting your career because you didn’t get help. I wish you the best.

    • anonymous

      I have a lot of respect for you being able to recognize your issue and to take action. That can’t be easy. I hope that even if you don’t attend meetings, you will find a therapist or someone who you can talk to and make a plan with. I really don’t have experience with this, but I would imagine that it can and will get hard and that it would be nice to have someone to lean on for support. You can do this.

    • How is tonight?

      @l

      It is 9:40 in CA, and I just got home. My husband and step-daughter are out of town, so I am alone evenings this week (first time in 3 years). I am sitting in my suit, barefoot, at the dining room table, with a big box of cookies (in my defense, I baked them for Passover and they have no flour or butter), reading Corporette. I imagine if I were a drinker, it would be a bottle instead of the cookies.

      So I just want you to know that I am thinking of you and hoping this evening was just a teeeny, tiiiiny bit easier than last evening was.

    • Anonforthis

      I feel like I’m a little late to this thread, but I wanted to suggest that while you’re giving up drinking, you add something new to your life. I struggled to quit smoking several times after college, but finally did it when I started taking martial arts classes. The fact that I wasn’t just removing something from my life meant I never felt like I was deprived or had given something up. I was psyched about karate and my enthusiasm for it virtually eliminated the urge to smoke, since I knew I couldn’t smoke and be in good fighting shape at the same time. Good luck to you!

    • Appealing Lawyer

      Does your state bar have a Lawyers Assistance Program? Many do and it is confidential. You are not alone and do not have to risk your job or reputation to get help.

  23. Diana Barry

    Hey ladies, I know it’s late, so will repost tomorrow if I don’t get anything…but do any of the Boston corporettes have a recommendation for a dermatologist? :)

    • Fiona

      Yes! Susan Bergin at Beth Israel. She sees patients at the main hospital and also at a satellite office in Needham. She’s really great, and if you have any serious issues they have a very good staff of dermatology surgeons on site as well.

      • TCFKAG

        Hey. Totally belated, but she’s my dermatologist too! How funny. She’s amazing. :-) Though I believe she spells it Burgin.

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