Splurge Monday’s Workwear Report: Color Block Sheath Dress
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Sales of note for 3/15/25:
- Nordstrom – Spring sale, up to 50% off
- Ann Taylor – 40% off everything + free shipping
- Banana Republic Factory – 40% off everything + extra 20% off
- Eloquii – 50% off select styles + extra 50% off sale
- J.Crew – Extra 30% off women's styles + spring break styles on sale
- J.Crew Factory – 40% off everything + extra 20% off 3 styles + 50% off clearance
- M.M.LaFleur – Friends and family sale, 20% off with code; use code CORPORETTE15 for 15% off
- Spanx – Lots of workwear on sale, some up to 70% off
- Talbots – 40% off 1 item + 30% off everything else (includes markdowns, already 25% off)
And some of our latest threadjacks here at Corporette (reader questions and commentary) — see more here!
Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- I'm fairly senior in BigLaw – where should I be shopping?
- how best to ask my husband to help me buy a new car?
- should we move away from DC?
- quick weeknight recipes that don’t require meal prep
- how to become a morning person
- whether to attend a distant destination wedding
- sending a care package to a friend who was laid off
What do you wish you would have asked as an associate, or are glad you did, before making partner or deciding whether to switch firms? My firm is allowing associates to anonymously submit questions to the managing partner group that will supposedly be collected and answered in a group setting next month.
Very specifically how partners get paid. Not necessarily what each partner makes, but the formula/spreadsheet matrix.
+1m
+1
I think we need to keep some things like this private, b/c, as a Junior Partner, I am still compensated based on a (confidential) percentage of my billeable hours, and I think others might not like to learn how much I get paid, so I agree with the manageing partner that we will keep that aspect of my compensation to ourself. I think in every firm, there are doers, like me, and there are watchers, who collect their pay based on the work that the doers do. So it really should not be a shock that I get more, but why rub it in their noses by makeing it public? So we don’t.
I would ask what’s the firms plan in the event of an economic downturn.
And in that vein, do they ever de-equitize and, if so, under what circumstances, with how much notice, and whether you can be re-equitized and when.
Do you see monthly/quarterly financial reports now? If not, I would ask if that can be provided to associates going forward. (If you do get this info, read it! You need to understand the firm as a business.)
Does the firm have a clear process for partnership consideration? If not, I would ask them to formalize that and provide it to associates so that you know how to measure your progress.
What has the firm’s associate attrition looked like over the last few years (generally and with respect to women and people of color)? Maybe more critically – what has the firm’s junior partner (or nonequity partner, if you have a two-tier partnership) attrition looked like over the last few years?
I should add – I’m at a mid-size firm that hasn’t promoted an associate to partner in over five years. The associate attrition rate is like an inverse bell curve (there’s probably a math name for that) – they had a lot about five years ago, no one left for a couple years, and now three people have given notice this month. I don’t see a common reason for the notices, but I haven’t been here long enough to know for sure. Thanks for all the great question ideas so far!
I’d probably ask why the last 3 left, but recognize that they might not give a real answer. I’d be interested in both the answer and how the handle the question.
Is there an equity and nonequity partnership tier? What are the criteria for being elevated to each? When will you be considered for partnership for the first time, how many times can you be considered, and what happens if you don’t make it? Do you have to have a book before you can make partner, and is there a dollar amount that you need to reach? Do you have to be nonequity before being considered for equity? Is there a buy in? What is the salary range for nonequity? If you make nonequity, there an expectation that you should make equity within X years? What happens if you don’t meet the crtieria for making equity in that time frame? What is the hours requirement for nonequity? How is equity pay calculated? How much of a book do you need to have before you at least break even on your current salary vs. potential equity partner pay?
+1, these are great questions.
Also – be prepared for them to NOT ANSWER your questions, or say “oh, the executive director/management committee knows all those details”. The person who finally gave me all this information was not the person I originally asked, but I was persistent to keep pushing on the points (esp the last one) to get that information.
I think we need to keep some things like this private, b/c, as a Junior Partner, I am still compensated based on a (confidential) percentage of my billeable hours, and I think others might not like to learn how much I get paid, so I agree with the manageing partner that we will keep that aspect of my compensation to ourself. I think in every firm, there are doers, like me, and there are watchers, who collect their pay based on the work that the doers do. So it really should not be a shock that I get more, but why rub it in their noses by makeing it public? So we don’t.
What is this thread. If something is important to you, be a grown up, use your words, and say it. I empathize with the disappointment and would feel similarly but that doesn’t give me a right to justify expecting a person to be a mind reader. There are so many hallmark holidays that people don’t care about, and trying to pick and choose which ones I’d expect people to care about is impossible to do so with accuracy. If talking about it is so hard, print out a checklist with what holidays are and aren’t important to you, to what degree, and some vague expectations associated with celebrating it. Have him fill out his too while you’re at it. Bam, no more guessing, no more hurt feelings, and if they still don’t follow through *then* you have grounds to really be upset for his mistakes. Or keep subscribing to the idea that other people should read your mind, keep feeling bad, and keep being disappointed. Your husband isn’t going to change overnight into the kind of person who just intuitively gets what holidays are important to you, so ya gotta take steps to help that along or be unhappy or leave.
This is 1) in the wrong place and 2) unnecessarily rude. It’s not “reading your mind” to know that the mother of your children should be told Happy Mother’s Day. He didn’t even ask their very young children to tell their mother Happy Mother’s Day. No mind reading is necessary to know that he should have done that.
Hi Ladies, do hotel prices fluctuate like air fare? I’m going to NYC in October and making hotel reservations. Is it worth it to keep checking for prices to go down? Or should I just book it now? I feel like I have at least until mid-summer to wait to reserve. TIA!
Book now, usually prices go up as availability goes down. Most hotel reservations can be canceled without penalty so there is little risk.
+1. Plus if you book through engines like H*tels.com or B**king.com that come with lowest price guarantee, they will price match if the price (under the same terms) goes down at a later date.
Book it now. The events/seasons that impact hotel prices are known well in advance and prices set well in advance.
Book a refundable rate now, and if it goes down you can ask for a price adjustment (or cancel and rebook but they will normally price adjust when they know you have the option to cancel without penalty).
My British husband said in March: “I know you don’t do Mothers Day in March, so I’m not going to mention it.”
Yesterday, he made pancakes for him and the kids… and that’s it. It’s just a regular Sunday really, but I feel so blah.
Did you want him to celebrate it in a specific way? If he was oblivious to that, it might be worth telling it as it is instead of low key resenting it silently (resent may be a big word).
I didn’t expect anything grand, just him telling the kids to say happy ma day. I understand it’s all a great commercialised day now, and I seriously don’t want/need breakfast in bed or flowers for this particular day. But it’s the way he said he won’t mention it in March, that implies he’s made an effort to remember this in May, no?
Also, I make an effort to remember UK Mother’s Day and get the kids to draw mil something.
Long story short, I didn’t think I cared but now I feel like I’ve lost out twice. And
Communication is key here. I literally asked my husband a week-and-a-half ago for a gift. He was surprised. I reminded him that the kids learn from him and they can’t buy their own gifts yet. I am down on a lot of things right now, but I’m a pretty good mom, and can he please recognize that. He came through with a small birthstone jewelry piece. Not the most expensive or elaborate, but did not fail, either. Highly recommend making your request outright. It “stinks” to have to do this, but also puts all parties on the same page.
Isn’t this kind of… the opposite of the point of Mother’s Day? Having to do the emotional labor of not only suggesting a gift, but reminding your husband and children of the EXISTENCE OF THE DAY when you’d have to be living off the grid to avoid all the commercial reminders of it?
BOO to both of the above partners.
Yeah I’m pretty tired of women being told to just ask for what you want. I shouldn’t have to ask for basic courtesy. Doing something – anything – to recognize the mother of your children on Mother’s Day definitely falls in that category.
Welcome to motherhood, where you are 100% responsible for everything. I hate Mother’s Day because I am responsible for coming up with a family togetherness activity that will make no one complain, when all I really want is to be left alone to relax.
Just FYI – being left alone to relax is an acceptable ask. DH brought me coffee, the kids came in with a flower each and then he took them to the park for lunch and I got 4 hours of alone time in my own house. It was the best.
Unfortunately, being left alone to relax is not an acceptable request in my family. My extrovert husband takes it as a personal rejection.
Then your extrovert husband can be surrounded by people on Father’s Day. This is Mother’s Day.
No. It’s what being an adult looks like.
+1. Not a mother yet so maybe my thoughts will change, but in the same way I don’t remind my husband to buy birthday/christmas/anniversary presents for me (though I might suggest something if I don’t think he’ll know about it, like tickets to a baseball game since I like sports and he doesn’t), I wouldn’t expect to do this for Mother’s Day?
I think the difference with Mothers Day is that not everyone cares about it in the same way and expectations therefore aren’t as evident. I’m a Mom of 2, but Mother’s Day doesn’t matter much to me – I think of it as a Hallmark holiday and don’t care about celebrating it.
At least initially there has to be some communicating about how you expect to celebrate. I would hate to have to go out to brunch with the kids and manage them in a restaurant. Also don’t want more ‘stuff’ like bath stuff or jewelry. Coffee in bed, flowers, card from my kid and a few hours of peace is what I want. But someone else might want brunch at a restaurant followed by a manicure or whatever. What you want probably also changes depending on how old your kids are.
This. And I’m not much of a “need a birthday gift” kind of girl. But this year I really wanted recognition for this “holiday” so…. I asked for it.
I think Mother’s Day is a little different than birthdays or other present-giving occasions. I think that being a mother can mean doing a lot of thankless tasks and tons of emotional labor. This could be a day to acknowledge and appreciate that, so when it’s not done, it can make you feel a little extra undervalued.
I don’t think it needs to be a huge deal. I am coming to realize, though, that I do need something to mark the day & need to communicate that. My #1 gift this year would have been if DH could have gotten my watch battery changed (don’t need anything new…that would have just signaled that he heard me say it wasn’t working + take something off my to-do list).
If the alternative is that or being forgotten completely and being sad about it, being up front with your partner about your expectations is the healthier approach. Would it be ideal if he did exactly what she wanted on his own with no prompting? Sure. But wishing doesn’t make it so. We can’t control others, only our own actions.
+1 People are not mind readers. In the same way you woukd ask a friend to give you more notice before coming over you can communicate your wishes to your partner.
Being passive and then not getting what you want and being frustrated about it? Everybody loses.
Yeah, but from what I’ve read here and on the Mom’s site, this seems to be a pattern. I guess most men are just clueless. I don’t have kids and I’m glad I don’t have to be disappointed by Mother’s Day because that’s all I seem to hear. Did anyone actually have a good Mother’s Day or a husband that isn’t actually a child themselves?
I had a good Mother’s Day. I didn’t want or need anything tangible, since I’m not much of a gift person and my husband just gave me a birthday gift a few weeks ago. My kid made me something in daycare, and he was so excited to give it to me when I picked him up on Friday. Yesterday, my husband got up with our kid and gave him breakfast and handled the morning obligations so I could sleep in a bit. My MIL and SIL and niece came over, but it was really relaxed. We hadn’t planned on serving food, but my husband made an impromptu, delicious lunch for everyone by pulling together random ingredients we had on hand. When MIL and SIL left, my husband took over kid duty for a few hours, and I finished a book. We had a simple dinner (typical for a Sunday night). My FIL stopped by for about half an hour and brought flowers, which was sweet. After he left, DH and I watched the second half of the basketball game, put our kid to bed, and then I watched GOT.
I mean, it’s the internet, so rarely are people going to comment with “I had a perfect day and everything went well!” Right?!
Yes, I had a really good Mothers Day. I went to my exercise class as usual on Sun morning, during which time DH and kids “secretly” went to Paris Baguette and brought home breakfast pastries as well as a small bouquet of flowers. When I came back home after my workout the coffee and pastries were a welcome treat. DH made me a mimosa and kids drank OJ. Kids were super excited and my 8yo gave me a card he had made in school, with some attached coupons (free hug, clean my room, etc.). I redeemed the “Free Hug” coupon immediately after which he marked it off so I couldn’t reuse it, haha. My preschooler sang a song she had learnt (she actually forgot about it until evening) about Mothers Day but tripped over some of the big words (“devoted and considerate…. helps me with decisions”) in the song which was cute! DH took over some chores I normally do like bathing the younger kid and managing lunch, and I got to watch my current favorite show and take an afternoon nap. We did groceries and some other chores but at bedtime kiddo once again asked me “did you have a good Mothers Day?” and I said yes, it was even better than my birthday. That made him very happy since he is never more excited than his birthday so he fell asleep with the satisfaction of a job well done.
A lot of people (probably more men, but definitely some women too) are just not great at the whole “surprising their partner with a perfect day/gift” thing. I long ago accepted that I had to be specific with DH about what I’d like to do and receive for my birthday, I’m not sure why Mother’s Day should be any different. And I don’t think doing more of the “emotional labor” is inherently terrible – the problem is when the physical labor is split 50/50 and the woman also does all the invisible emotional labor. In our house, I do almost all the emotional labor and DH does the vast majority of the physical labor. He’s better and more efficient at making dinner and cleaning up, I’m far better at doing taxes and buying gifts for our family and friends. It works for us and neither of us feels like we’re doing too much overall.
Wow this thread is sad. I get having a little ‘wish list’ running with ideas of gifts for your partner (after all, they are not a mind reader), but the least the partner could do is initiate the conversation right?
Huge difference, IMHO, between “mom reminds family of upcoming Mother’s Day and says she wants a massage appointment” and “family asks mom what she’d like to do for Mother’s Day.”
I mean Mother’s Day is a Hallmark holiday. I’d say probably half the moms I know don’t care about it at all or just want a homemade card from the kids (which daycare normally does, if your kids go to daycare). If OP cares about her husband planning something, fine, he should acknowledge that and do something. But I think it’s kind of ridiculous to go on this rant about how most men are terrible because they don’t plan something elaborate for a made up holiday that a very large number of people don’t care about.
No one is saying the partner has to plan an elaborate surprise. Or that the partner can’t rely on a prior conversation in which the mom says “hey I don’t really care about this holiday, no need to celebrate.” I’m reacting to the moms on this thread who DO want an acknowledgement but can’t rely on their partners to do so much as say Happy Mother’s Day without a reminder.
I guess I don’t understand – do these partners also forget Christmas, birthdays, doctor’s/dentist’s appointments, a kids soccer game and work meetings? How are they otherwise able to function in life and not miss scheduled things?
Mother’s Day is not remotely comparable to a work meeting or a doctor’s appointment (which are essentially mandatory) or even to a birthday/Christmas, which are much more significant holidays to most people.
@10:29 Anon
It’s pretty rare someone straight up forgots. Most of the discussion is about what was done/not done and there are a pretty wide variety of ways people celebrate so communicating expectations is necessary – just like with any other holiday.
I’m anon at 10:29… it seems like, based on the amount of disappointment and frustration that people are expressing, it *is* as mandatory as a work meeting to keep the marital and familial harmony. And there was a comment last week somewhere that a husband hand’t picked up on hints to make brunch reservations at a specific place, and when reminded that Mother’s Day was this weekend, he appeared surprised that it was coming (so, this husband had forgotten). As far as I am aware, no one is keeping the date of Mother’s Day a secret, so it’s scheduled and on a calendar like a doctor’s appointment or birthday or Christmas. Therefore, I’m just wondering how someone remembers other important dates but not this one (since it does seem important to their wives)?
I think you have to remember that men will take their cues from how they grew up. If THEIR fathers made a big deal out of Mother’s Day (“let’s get mom breakfast in bed! a card! flowers! a special dinner!”) it’s more likely they’ll think to do so for their wives. But if their fathers didn’t – and my father-in-law didn’t – then they’ll think of it as just a made-up, commercialized holiday.
Maybe I’m alone in this, but I don’t feel like Mother’s Day is a holiday for a husband to celebrate his wife? To me, it’s a day to celebrate your mother if she’s alive or honor her memory if she has passed. If the couple has an infant who can’t acknowledge their mom then I can see the husband doing something in place of the baby. But even a 3 year old can say “Happy Mother’s Day, Mommy” and draw some kind of card, and to me, that’s what the holiday is about? I guess I’m alone in this, but it would never occur to me that my husband needs to do something on Mother’s Day (or that I need to do something for him on Father’s Day). It’s a day when we call/send gifts to our own mothers. My husband and I also don’t celebrate Valentine’s Day though so clearly we’re not big on Hallmark holidays.
No, there’s a dad responsibility here – thanks for being such an amazing mom to our kids – and I expect moms would do much the same for Father’s Day. But I wouldn’t do sh1t for the rotten Brit husband of the OP.
So the fact that my husband and I don’t think of the holidays this way automatically makes us terrible people? I agree that if you spouse says “I would like to do X for Y holiday” and you refuse to do it, then you’re not being a good spouse. But that comes back to communication, which is what several people. How will your spouse know what you want unless you communicate? I wouldn’t do anything for Father’s Day unless my husband asked for it, so according to all of these women with pitchforks, I’m a terrible wife? I don’t know. I’ve been married almost 20 years and I just really don’t think that having to communicate with you spouse about what you want to do for a holiday is the worst thing in the world.
*which is what several people said.
But the husband has to TELL the 3 year old it’s Mother’s Day. The husband has to TELL the 3-year old to make mommy a card. The 3 year old has no way of knowing this on his own. So yes, it is on the dad to make sure a young child recognizes Mother’s Day.
All the 3 year olds I know have some awareness that it’s Mother’s Day and usually make a card or something like that at daycare/preschool.
+1 And this is coming from someone married 26 years this year.
+1.
I told my husband he was dealing with all children after the stroke of midnight Sunday morning. So when our 3 y/o had a bad dream, when the baby got up at 5:30, he had to deal with it. My older 2 and daddy made breakfast (for them and me) while I rested. They colored and made me cards morning-of. Later that day I told DH I was getting a pedicure, he was in charge.
When I went grocery shopping, I had my 3 y/o pick me out a bouquet of flowers. She had a blast and I got flowers.
In the past I’d have grumbled about lack of flowers but this year I just picked what I wanted. This old dog learned some new tricks.
This thread is absolutely depressing. After a week of avoiding television and anything that might even remotely mention Mother’s Day, I would have given anything to have had my mom back yesterday to celebrate Mother’s Day with her and spent the whole effing day wondering if I ever did enough for her.
It is depressing. I’m going to guess that it’s not about the day at all; the day is just a symbol of a lot of resentment toward partners (and ourselves?) for all of the things we “need” to do. The time spent complaining could be better spent creating a life that has less resentment instead.
Way to make it about you!
Seriously?
There are people dissing Mother’s Day as a Hallmark holiday or not important. The OP is unhappy because her husband more or less ignored the day, and other posters aren’t happy that they all but have to put a freaking billboard in their front yards to get their SO’s to do SOMETHING to recognize the day without spending it feeling resentful that they have to remind them that it’s Mother’s Day or drop hints over it. We’re talking about grown-a$$ men here who should be able to do something for the mothers of their children, yet these women still have to — at minimum — steer them in the right direction. And for those of us who wish we could celebrate it, it’s maddening. I just want to take these people who dropped the ball and shake them and point out what they’re missing, because life has a way of making you sorry and regretful.
And no, you don’t get to be all smug and self-righteous and minimize my grief. Take that sh!t somewhere else.
I am sorry for your loss. I didn’t post the snarky comment & don’t think it was warranted at all, but I will say that I read your first post as saying that the people who were complaining about not getting recognition were being petty. It seems like you were intending the exact opposite — disappointment that there wasn’t more focus on appreciation and gratitude while there is still the opportunity.
I’m sorry. I feel like everyone wants to tell you this is your fault, but your husband and kids are not blameless here, and you get to feel how you feel. I’d be disappointed too. Hugs.
Agree. Hugs.
+1. I’m really surprised by the responses here. It is one thing to not do the exact thing you wanted, but to not even acknowledge the day. I don’t see how anyone is defending that.
I grew up with a single mother. One year, when I was about 6 and my brother was about 8, we forgot mother’s day. Looking back, I’m not sure how it happened, but we did. Our mother sat us down the next week, and told us that how it made her feel that we didn’t recognize the day. You better believe that we never forgot again! If I can get that as a 6 year old, I don’t understand why there are so many grown “adult” men who can’t
I had a total meltdown yesterday with my husband (only matched by our 3yos meltdown the day before). It was my bday in march and I had a baby and everyone totally forgot my bday- barely anyone even *said* happy bday to me. Then yesterday I also got no appreciation. My husband said happy Mother’s Day, and I don’t expect much… but he was snappy with me several times yesterday and I got stuck doing my regular part of the housekeeping and kidkeeping and a majority is dealing with my ususually insane 3yo and I just wanted some kind words and to feel a little bit special… because lately I’ve been feeling totally useless and worthless. He is a great husband normally, I just wanted any effort at all.
This is all to say- I feel you op.
After two months of wedding planning, my fiancee and I are starting to weigh the option of eloping against organizing what would essentially be a destination wedding. (All of my friends/family, and about 50% of hers, live in another country.) We’re working with a fairly reasonable wedding budget (about $15k) but this weekend she pointed out that almost all of our planning is geared towards our guests’ needs, planning a party that would be worth their time & travel, etc. Neither of us are actually big party people (our wedding would have no dancing/drinking) and neither of us have ever had a vision of our dream wedding. I can’t really even picture myself in a white dress.
On the other hand, given our family & friends’ wide distribution across the continent, this would be literally our only chance for our families to meet & show their support for us. Having my family’s support matters to me (especially because I moved countries for my fiance and see my family much less frequently now). But as my fiancee pointed out, it would absolutely be easier and cheaper for us to spend weekends visiting each of my four sisters’ families rather than asking them all to travel to us (especially for my sisters with very young children).
For those of who you did elope, what were your deciding factors? Do you have any regrets (and would you do it again?)
I considered eloping for many of the same reasons and ultimately didn’t. One factor that I considered is that part of the reason eloping was appealing is because I didn’t want to feel like I put anybody out by asking them to travel to the wedding (like it wouldn’t be “worth it”). I ultimately realized I was being insecure and not recognizing my worth and importance to my family. Anyone who couldn’t make it was able to RSVP accordingly and everyone else showed up and had a blast.
I did not elope, and wish that I had. We spent very little time with any individual guest (except for a few emotional vampires who we needed saving from) and the entire day was hectic and passed in a blur. There was just no time for heart-to-hearts, or anything more than quick generic well wishes in a receiving line. If you truly crave a more emotionally intimate experience with loved ones, I’d elope and travel to each family unit, as your fiancee suggests.
+1. I think I’m one of the few people who regrets having a wedding but I do (even though my parents paid for most of it). I had bridesmaid drama, people were mad they didn’t get plus ones, we had a small wedding but still didn’t get to talk to everyone and I absolutely hated being the center of attention. I love attending weddings and thought that would translate to loving my own wedding, but it did not. Oh and my parents paid $9k for a photographer who took really terrible pictures. :/
I’m planning to elope in a destination location with just the parents in attendance. I come from a place that typically has huge, expensive weddings, while my partner comes from a very small town where backyard/local church hall weddings are the norm. I also have a massive family of over 70 people which really inflates the guest list, while partner’s mom expects their whole small town to be invited and would be extremely offended if they weren’t. It got to the point where, like you said, it felt like we were planning a party to please everyone else and that’s not what we wanted our wedding to be about. We are also not huge partiers aka dancing, etc. I can’t answer whether we will regret it but so far I am loving the whole thing.
You don’t have to throw a huge party to make it “worth it” for guests. What makes a wedding worth the travel is that I get to see the couple and meet their friends and family. I’d focus on having some smaller, more casual get togethers to maximize your time with your guests.
Maybe – ice cream social the night before the wedding, a morning wedding in a local park followed by brunch or lunch, anyone who wants to hang out can reconvene at the hotel or someone’s house around 4-5 pm for tea and sandwiches/finger food, then breakfast at the hotel the following morning?
I mean there’s nothing wrong with eloping, either, but it kind of sounds like you want a wedding to bring together your community. So… plan a wedding that will do that within your budget? You don’t have to feel guilt about wanting a wedding. Your wedding is not an imposition.
This. I wrote a longer post but basically eating leftover wedding cake and drinking tea/coffee the afternoon after the wedding at my aunt’s house was one of the best times.
I didnt invite my extended family for drama reasons, and I did hear from a few people that they wanted a chance to meet his family. So maybe don’t call the event off because you’re worried people won’t want to come if there isn’t drinking. This is a one-time occasion, and I admire you thinking about your guests, but it isn’t all about entertainment.
OTOH, like I said, i had plenty of family drama, so if you decide you want to elope, I’m not the one who would argue against it.
Eloped, 100% no regrets. Some extended family members were a tiny bit miffed that they didn’t get a free party, but we saved a ton of money and stress, and having only a few witnesses allowed us to be “present” that day and really focus on our vows and on each other and our reasons for being there, rather than being stressed about whether my divorced parents were about to start drama in the background or cousin so-and-so getting drunk and sick. You will have a whole lifetime together, so it’s not like your families won’t have a chance to meet. Weddings tend to be about the guests, rather than the couple, and we weren’t compelled to throw a party for everyone else’s benefit. I’d make the exact same decision a million times over.
Also, like The original Scarlett, we also threw a casual surprise-reception type thing after the fact to announce the news to our friends. Also totally worth it, totally non-traditional and only the guest we truly wanted to invite, rather than obligatory extended relatives.
What wedding is a free party to a guest? Between travel costs, clothes and the gift each wedding costs me $500-1k. That said, I definitely would have eloped if my husband had agreed to it, but a semi- traditional wedding was important to him, so we did that (we spent about $20k including ALL costs in a hcola). It is really the only time people from all of your walks of life will come together to focus on you, and even as an introvert, it sure is a nice feeling to be celebrated and honored by your community.
I eloped. Best decision! I moved countries (not a typo) twice since I moved out of my parent’s house at 18 and I have friends all over. I felt it would be a big ask for them to travel 24 hours door to door and take at least a week off from work to make it to a wedding. Plus, most of them don’t even speak the same language! I thought that if we did a wedding, it would be very one-sided. My husband, whose friends are local and only 4 hours flight away would get a lot of guests whereas none of the people I invited would come. I knew I would be very upset and felt judged so we decided no wedding! We saved so much money – the whole wedding plus a last minute white dress bought at Macy’s costs less than $400, which allowed us to buy a house at age 27 and 29 (after paying off a full sticker law school debt and having a baby!).
I eloped and absolutely would again. There were a number of factors as to the why, but ultimately we viewed it as a commitment to each other and we didn’t want an audience (this is a huge YMMV thing). It was the most romantic day of my life – it was just us in love, not worrying about anything other than getting to City Hall on time.
PS – we did throw a small reception (about 50 people) later, but because we’d eloped, we were able to do that on our terms – it was immediate family and closest friends only, which we couldn’t have pulled off had it been the wedding wedding.
+1 This was me too. My marriage was a private commitment for me, so eloping totally made sense. We were sort of planning on having a reception thing later, but never ended up doing it…which now after having more experience with some of the extended family dysfunction, I’m also very glad we didn’t do.
Hey, I think I am pretty well qualified to answer this.
I am from country A and immigrated here with my parents as a child. The majority of our family lives in country A still.
My wife is from country B and moved here as a child with her parents too. Her family is now really dispersed across the world.
We had a big gay wedding and invited all of our friends and family in a major west coast city that we do not actually live in, closeish to our families that live in America.
I was really pushing to elope for all of the reasons that you named (logistics, money, not being into parties). My wife however really wanted a wedding for various personal and family reasons so we went ahead with it.
I have to say that I really surprisingly loved having a big wedding and seeing all of our families there wishing us well. It was so emotional for me, my parents, and my wife, and her parents. We both come from very conservative (but different) religious backgrounds but are lucky to have the support of our parents with getting married.
I didn’t expect it to be so powerful to feel the love from our community as a whole. It has made my parents even more okay with my having a wife. They now speak more freely about me and my family to others in their community. It has really improved our relationship.
This is so great. This is what weddings should be about.
I agree, this is so lovely!
I was in a similar situation when I married the last time. It was my third (yikes!) and I had every expectation that we would get married at the courthouse and then go out for a nice lunch. Lovely Husband had other plans and we ended up with a ginormous day-long multi-event wedding including a full Episcopal mass for the ceremony, and you know what? It was great. It really is amazing to have your whole community there wishing you well.
That said, I would have loved the courthouse wedding, too.
We eloped and would 100% do it again. Our families knew ahead of time. We took a 2 week vacation to a Caribbean country and got married in the middle. We had recently been to a number of big, fancy weddings of friends where the bride and groom were so stressed about seemingly minor details and we knew we didn’t want that.
The primary driver was family drama — I couldn’t fathom how to navigate some very bitter divides and didn’t want the happiest day of my life to be preoccupied with them. But we also just didn’t feel comfortable with the cost of the kind of wedding we would want in our HCOL area — we were looking at upwards of $30K and probably more like $40K. It was more important to us to save for a house and not start our married life in debt.
Our whole wedding, including the travel, cost about $8K and then we threw a big party for everyone for about $7K a few months later. We also specified no gifts – we didn’t want to be seen as gift-grabby when it was really just a party, not a “reception.”
We didn’t elope but we did have the kind of wedding you are planning now and honestly, it was wonderful and valuable. We got married in my hometown, DH’s family traveled from their country and my sister traveled from her state and our university friends traveled too. It is literally the only way that some of the most important people in our lives would have met. Even 15 years later, BIL has visited us and my sister has visited us but never at the same time so I don’t think they’ve met again. We’re both close with our families and it was definitely meaningful to see my Dad chatting with DH’s uncles or my BIL get to know my BFF. Many people added each other on social media and continue to interact.
We focused less on a big reception and planned a few different low key activities together, like a hike, a boat tour, BBQ in my parents backyard for our ‘reception dinner’, casual coffee afternoon (coffee/juice/wedding cake/pastries) at my aunt’s house over the 3-4 days before/after the wedding. There wasn’t a huge guest list and we didn’t invite all wedding guests to these events so it ended up being like 30ish people at most things. There wasn’t a huge level of planning for some of these activities, it was like an email saying ‘some of us are going to a hike on X day at Y location. It’s about xyz miles and suitable for young children. Let (my BFF) know if you plan to come so we don’t leave without you.’ Once people connected on the first couple days, they actually got on so well they started planning stuff independently to meet up and tour around near my hometown while we were on our honeymoon. Low key and informal was the key to making it work.
Hazel, is your family in the same other country as your fiancee’s? What about getting married there instead, or, if that is not legally possible, what about a private ceremony for the two of you where you live and a reception with your families in their location?
I’ve known two couples that have dealt with something like this. First couple– both from the U.S., but all family but their parents was international. They chose to do the wedding in a major city close to the city where they lived that had better airport access/hotels. I think they had enough wedding events that they got to talk to everyone they wanted to.
Second couple– groom from U.S., bride from South Africa. They had a small destination wedding in Costa Rica and only invited close friends and family. (We were not close enough to be invited.) They also felt the need to do something to make the trip “worth it” for the family coming from South Africa. Ultimately, they spent way less on a “worth it” wedding in Costa Rica than they would have in the U.S., and since it was small and everyone was in the same resort, etc., they got to actually talk to the people that had flown in for the wedding.
If you don’t want to invest huge amounts of time in wedding planning, don’t want drinking, and don’t want dancing, then you should consider booking a private function room at a fun, delicious restaurant, finding special occasion wear that you both like, getting flowers from Costco, and, optional, planning out a weekend of fun activities (hiking, wine tasting, etc.).
I wanted to elope, my (now)husband wanted a wedding; we had a wedding. Everyone swore I’d be happy we did the big to-do.. it’s been 15 years and that hasn’t come true. The only thing I am happy that came out of that day are photos with grandparents & some other family members who are no longer with us – so if you do elope, give some though to other “wedding-adjacent” activities that you still might want to conduct.
We semi eloped. We said, we are getting married in Vegas on this date 2 months from now and if anyone wants to come join us, drinks are on us!
We didn’t arrange anyone’s hotel room. We didn’t have to plan a party. We really didn’t have to do much. Were there people who thought we were doing it wrong? Oh my yes! But my mom and siblings came along, and some long time friends made a little vacation of it, and a weird group of my husband’s coworkers showed up, and we had a fun night that was not stressful at all to us. The bar tab was in the thousands but a drop in the bucket compared to what a wedding would have cost so we were happy to do it.
Eloped- my parents disapproved of the match- they were invited but did not come. It was dirt cheap, and we’ve been married 14 yrs. Getting married is stressful enough- I would not have had the wherewithal had to pick out flowers or figure out seating charts, so just him and me was the right number of people.
I’m going through a divorce that I didn’t want. Married 13 years. I have the lawyer and finance stuff handled, but I could use some stories from folks who came out okay emotionally on the other side of this. I’m going to be a 37-year-old single mom (of one 7-year-old). I’m having a hard time imagining enjoying anything ever again. I also can’t imagine I’m ever going to find love again.
Focus on your child. You have 11 years to worry about finding love again. You child is going to be bouncing back and forth now, and while you have no control over what happens at his/her father’s house, you can control your house and your life. Your child doesn’t need the drama of you “finding love again.” In 11 years when your child is 18, then you can try to find love again. This may sound harsh, but it’s the truth.
That’s ridiculous. OP yes absolutely take your time. You’re hurting now and you will be for a while, and you should focus on rebuilding your child and restoring yourself. At some point you’ll be ready to date again. Don’t let some internet tr0ll convince you that you can’t date for the next 11 years or you’re a bad mom.
This isn’t harsh so much as cruel, and also wildly unrealistic from what I’ve seen (not divorced, but a pretty large number of my friends are). I’d say almost everyone remarries or gets into a serious relationship before their youngest kid is 18. Kids will adjust. I agree you shouldn’t be having a different one night stand sleep over every week, but there’s no harm in dating casually while your ex has the kids, and introducing a partner to your children once it’s relatively serious.
OP, one of my best (male) friends got divorced a couple years ago and was in a similar situation (didn’t want the divorce, he was a similar age/kids’ ages to you and your kid). I won’t lie, he was really miserable for over a year and then things were still pretty rough for another year after that. But now he is doing great. He’s involved with a really nice woman (also divorced with kids) but things had definitely turned a corner for him even before he met her. You’ll get through this! I’m optimistic that you’ll find love again, but even if you don’t, life will be ok.
OP: Ignore this comment – it’s a perfect example of meanspirited kicking-someone-when-they’re-down.
I’ve been through a divorce, but not one as a single parent. I can tell you that the dull sensation that you’ll never be happy again is so, so common – and it’s also false. You will be happy again, and it’ll happen sooner than you think. Divorce is a rough sea, but when you’re in a rough sea, all you can do is keep sailing. And then a day comes when suddenly you realize that the sadness of this isn’t sitting on your heart all the time – the realization is usually sudden, although the lifting of the weight is gradual. You’ll find yourself starting to think about the future again – starting to look forward to things, starting to make plans. And that’s when you’ll know that you’ve arrived safely at the new country that is your life after this marriage.
Will it be easy? Of course not. Not getting there, and not living there. But it will be your life, and it will have joy and beauty too.
Everything cbackson said is spot on. I didn’t want my divorce, but looking back on it from a distance, it was the best possible thing that could have happened to me.
+1 to all this. My husband left me when I was 34, and I am now 37. For a while, it was really awful. I won’t sugarcoat that. But I’ve gotten to a place where I really love myself and my life, and I know more about myself and what I do and don’t want than I ever did when married. I started dating about 6 months ago with much more success and enjoyment than I expected. You have lots of good things ahead, and from what I’ve seen, having a child does not really hold people back in dating (when the right people are involved for the right reasons). Hugs, and good luck.
PLEASE don’t listen to this advice!!!! My mother did exactly this. She focused exclusively on us from the time she got divorced (she also didn’t want it) when my younger brother was 10 until he was out of the house at 18. All three of us wish that she’d dated, possibly found someone, and learned to live for herself rather than solely for us. Her #1 piece of advice to people getting divorced now is to take some time to heal and then be open to someone else coming along.
My ex-husband grew up like you did, and the emotional damage from carrying the weight of being his mom’s entire world was pretty rough.
Yup. My brother and I have had to learn to draw a lot of boundaries (and she totally understands and is willing – but it is still hard), and as we’ve had our own kids we’ve also had to learn how to parent without losing ourselves. People who spout this stuff have no idea of the multi-generational consequences of actually taking their advice.
Yes. My mother did this too. Divorced when I was 13, my sister was 11, and my brother was 9 and never dated or remarried. It was a burden in some sense and we all wished she had dated and found someone to share her life with. This was even more apparent when she was diagnosed with cancer when we were in our 20’s and we upended our lives to care for her. Of course we did so willingly, but would have been really, really helpful if she had a spouse too.
I have to deal with someone who took this don’t date until they are 18 advice, and honestly, I don’t think it’s good for her or her kids. She’s obsessed with micromanaging every aspect of their lives and as a preteen and a teen, they clearly want more autonomy. I really pity her kids.
Geez, this may work for you, but not everyone wants to be lonely for 11 years (!). That’s a large percentage of your life desiring something and letting your child (who never asked you to be lonely) hold you back from happiness. Let’s be honest, assuming the father is actively involved and sees child regularly (I know not the case) and/or the mother has a decent support system of friends and family, her life will not be 100% kid kid kid. She’s going to get bored, her kid will be with Dad or grandparents/aunts/uncles a decent amount of the time – she’s supposed to stare out a window wishing for what could be every other weekend? No!
No man would ever say “I’m divorced and have one child, guess I won’t date for a decade”. That’s absurd. OP I don’t have the best advice for you other than to ignore this 100%. Seek emotional support, in a healthy way, where you can, and when you’re ready you will find love again.
+1 No man on earth would ever say this. This is a hugely sexist expectation that only internet trolls would ever foist upon you. Go forth and date! Have fun!
No. This is nuts.
A single parent’s first obligation is to the children, but that does not preclude dating. A single parent should date cautiously, and be even more cautious about introducing a new partner to the kids: the parent *must* ensure that the person is of a very high character. (Sadly, it’s an actual thing for predators to date single parents to get access to the kids.) It’s disruptive to the child’s life to have a whole stream of Mommy’s dates or Daddy’s girlfriends paraded around; go out on dates but be very selective about the ones you introduce to the kids.
Of course, let yourself heal from the shock and pain before dating, but know that people do find love the second time around.
Wow, what a horrible thing to say to a person.
Just gonna raise my hand as a child of parents who split when I was twelve– my parents dating again was absolutely a positive experience for us AND them. OP, what Anonymous at 9:31 said is NOT the truth at all, and you should NOT listen to this advice.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/05/single-moms-fewer-chores-free-time-married.html
Also, therapy. It’s there to help you! And I think you owe it to your daughter to figure this out.
I went through a divorce after a 9 year marriage at age 41. No kids. We had just been evacuated for hurricane Katrina for 3 months, living in PA, and it felt like we were a team in decision-making, although I knew he was ambivalent about returning to New Orleans. Well, despite his being a therapist, he decided, about a month after we returned, that he was “just done” with our marriage, he met someone else, and just walked away. I had a really difficult time with it, to say the least. I moved back to our home by myself a month later and dealt with him having his stuff in the house, but not living here. I was blindsided and reeling and had a really hard time picturing what it would be like living as a single person again. I had trouble sleeping and cried a lot. Every new revelation or slight was devastating. By the time he moved to PA 4 months later, I was done with him. I realized, in retrospect, how freeing it was to be out from under the stress of being married to him, and that, in reality, I felt smothered by the fact that we spent way too much time together. It took me a while to be comfortable with being alone so much, but then I essentially became happier being alone. By the time our divorce became final, I felt lucky to be shed of him. I don’t regret it at all. I have had a much better life without him. The only way to get there is through. You’ve got this!
Oh yes, and therapy. I saw a wonderful therapist for about a year after we separated. It was really helpful in helping me cope and reset and think more carefully about the accusations he made toward me, and what I wanted from my life and relationships going forward.
My situation is different because I wanted the divorce, but I had the same thoughts while still married. Ultimately I decided that being alone forever would be better than being in my marriage so I left. I think with time, you will have your version of that realization – you did not have the marriage that you wanted and needed. You will find love again, and it will be better. You have *decades* of life ahead of you. Take your time to heal, spend time focusing on yourself and your kid, and when you are ready, start dating slowly and casually. Don’t focus on finding love again – just think about having fun with another person. Going out for drinks, live music, museums, hiking, whatever it is that you like to do while holding hands (literally or metaphorically). And gardening. And eventually, hopefully, something will click.
If you are in NYC, let’s get a drink.
Thanks, everyone. I know rationally that there will be joy in the future, it’s just hard to see that right now. I needed a little reminder this morning that people survive this and are happyish.
To the first poster, my kid has a dad and a mom who are crazy about him and are doing everything possible to make sure he is surrounded by love from both of us through this time. I’m certainly not planning to date anytime soon (and would always do so cautiously), but I have no intention of spending the next eleven years hibernating. I also don’t think that’s what would be best for my son.
I divorced when my son was about the same age as your son. Honestly, the one-mom/one-boy household can be kind of great once you get used to it.
And I totally get how devastating it is. After my divorce I used to wake up weeping every morning for months. I just kept telling myself “The only way out is through,” and “this time a year from now, things will be better.” And I was right on both counts. But I still feel like it’s just amazing anybody can go through a divorce and manage to stay on their feet and function. You and I and all of them deserve a medal for surviving.
And you will be happy again, I promise. Not just happyish. My life now is so great I honestly have to pinch myself, and none of it could have happened if my marriage(s) hadn’t ended.
Ignore the trolls.
It took me a long time but I feel much better now, having divorced. Thinking of you!
After walking around downtown this weekend in Jack Rogers, I’ve decided I must have some more comfortable sandals! I need them to be very low profile, and probably backless just for looks. But I need the bottom of the shoe to have some support and cushioning. Any suggestions?
Born Mai sandals
I love my Charleston Shoe Company sandals and can walk for miles in them (I typically walk anywhere from 5-15 miles per day on the weekend, and these definitely make it through that type of day). I have the Cannon, which does not match the description you provide about what you’re looking for, but maybe something else they offer might work for you.
Jack Rogers are just fancy flip flops, no? Vionic Aloe, or Croc Sanrah (there are several different versions with metal accents).
Cole Haan. My daughter loves hers for the comfort and style.
Vionic
Kork ease
Current/ former biglaw women: what do you wish you knew on your first day as a summer associate? Interested in advice about making a good impression, choosing a practice group, getting good opportunities to learn, and whatever else you think is important! Thanks in advance!
Remember that the summer is a 10-week job interview. It’s hard (at my firm at least) for summers to really screw up – we know it’s a learning experience for them – but the one big mistake I see people make is lean into the fun social part and not into the job-interview aspects of it. The social stuff is fun and is important too, but make sure you turn your projects in on time, and prioritize the social activities that will let you meet associates and partners in the groups you’re interested in (rather than picking based on what activities are objectively the most fun to you).
My firm makes offers to the specific practice group, so it’s really important to establish good relationships with the partners/associates in the groups you’re looking at. One year, we had a summer who we were very interested in and who had us listed as his top choice – but he kept turning down dinners/lunches with our partners and associates in favor of social activities in other groups, including ones he wasn’t even listing as a preferred choice (so for example, he was a corporate transactions candidate but he turned down a dinner with our practice group leader and another partner in the group in favor of a movie night with one of the litigation groups, and then turned down an attempt to reschedule that dinner in favor of TopGolf with the energy practice). At the end of the summer, he hadn’t met enough of our partners and associates for people to feel comfortable making him an offer; he actually ended up without an offer from any group and had to take a position in a group that he hadn’t listed as one of this preferences.
Adding to the social aspect – we had a summer a couple of years ago who had a somewhat intense running hobby and she signed up for all of these random races in the area on *weekdays* that were at least a thirty minute drive from the office and started at 5:00 or 5:30 pm. And would just… leave to go run these races, while her fellow summers were (as applicable) attending the scheduled summer events and asking associates who were in the office how/if they could help. She did not get an offer.
Work Stuff – 1) This is probably obvious, but be careful with your work. Firms vary on this, but my SA assignments were often research memos for non-billable work (to get a sense of writing/analysis) or the same assignment a junior associate was doing but with a longer timeline (with the SA’s time being written off). All this to say that the time pressure shouldn’t be as intense as when you’re an associate, so you have the time to double check everything (citations, typos, etc.). Try to have it finished a day or two before its due so you can look at it with fresh eyes in the morning.
2) Ask questions but ask them smartly. It’s better to ask a question before wasting time going down the wrong path, but make sure you do your due diligence before wasting anyone’s time with a question that could be answered with a little more research. If the assignment is from a partner, it may also help to ask a friendly associate she works with a lot. Generally people know that you’re new and don’t know much.
3) Ask for feedback. My firm had mid-summer evals, but it’s better to find out how your work quality is as soon as possible so you can revise it as needed.
Social Stuff
1) Some associates and partners are interested in mentoring, some are not. They make themselves pretty obvious by how much they go out of your way to talk to you at your desk, at events, etc. Even if they’re not your official mentor, ask them for lunch, coffee, etc. – they can give you valuable insight on the different practice areas and partner personalities.
2) Be social – it takes me a while to warm up and feel comfortable talking to people, which is bad for a summer. You want people to think of you as a friendly, sociable person – someone the partners aren’t going to mind working with or being stuck in an airport with at 2 am. If you have time, try to have an interesting book to be reading (it doesn’t have to be legal related, but something somewhat intellectual is good) or be able to make small talk about relevant sports/museums, etc. in the area.
3) Get to know your fellow associates but don’t be clique-y. They’ll be the people that (assuming you get offers) you can ask questions without feeling too dumb.
And if there’s a particular practice area you’re interested in or curious about, ask for assignments in that area – at my firm, litigation assignments were easier to dole out so we had to make a concentrated effort for transactional work.
Find a friend/mentor. Preferably a young associate who has enough experience to teach you things, but not enough that you can’t ask stupid questions.
Be careful with your work and deadlines. I you think you might miss a deadline, address it proactively instead of showing up at 5pm on the day off to tell the person you’re out of time.
Don’t get too crazy at parties and social events, even if other people are.
Good luck! If you got this far, you will probably do great.
When an associate or partner gives you an assignment, please bring a note pad and pen and take notes. Also, if you are not given a deadline for the assignment, ask for one. I sometimes forget to give a deadline, and it’s not me trying to trick someone, I just forgot. Always, always, always ask if there’s a good “mid point” follow up to ask questions that come up as you are doing something rather than at the beginning (when you likely don’t understand what you have to do) and when you get feedback on the final assignment. This may best be done over an email after having the assignment for a day or two “hi associate, I was wondering if you had about 10-15 minutes to chat about X assignment you gave me? I have done 1, 2 and 3, but I am wrestling with whether H or J is the appropriate next step and I would like to discuss.”
Please keep in mind that at least some of the time, if I’m giving you a real assignment that I am also working on that I call bill for (and you can’t), I can’t bill my time where I am teaching the summer about the assignment, so please be respectful and thoughtful of the questions that you ask.
YES to bringing a pen and pad of paper.
Adding to the thoughtful question thing, offering a choice of answers is a great way to show that you’ve actually put thought into this. So not, “I’m at point A. What should I do next?” But rather “I’m at point A. I’m considering doing Thing1 next because reason, or Thing2 next because other reason. Can you advise?”
Find out who is on the committee making hiring decisions, especially the partners. Over the course of the summer, make an effort to schedule lunch or coffee with each of them. Yes the associates are more fun to hang around with, but at best they have “veto” power over hiring decisions typically (e.g., they can provide information about how a candidate slipped up).
Don’t be the summer who bails on a time sensitive matter to catch a carpool home, hoping that you’ll be able to work remotely.
Do be the summer who is appreciative of all work and guidance.
Wait, people actually carpool? I thought that was just a thing from the Blondie comic strip.
Yes, it’s a great thing to do! Just not with a planned 3pm departure time as a biglaw summer.
thoughts from a big law partner:
1) establish your reputation based on your work, curiosity in the work and resourcefulness — do not establish your reputation through social antics or wardrobe choices.
2) if asked to attend after-parties with older men, say no and go home. follow up with them during the day for work or mentoring lunches during the day. remember that nothing good happens after midnight, especially when you’re on a 10 week interview.
3) be resourceful / don’t make your problems someone else’s problem — when given an assignment with a bit of lead time, sit down and think about the best way to tackle it, don’t just ask the associate or partner how to do it. if you’re not sure if what you’re doing is right, present your idea or proposal to the associate or partner and ask if that sounds right to them or if they think you should approach it differently.
4) remember that the summer is not the time to clear all of your bucket list restaurants. let the associates / partners choose, but have a few ideas ready in case they defer to you. do not post a sign up sheet with a list of restaurants you want to go to outside your office. you will be “that person” for the remainder of your (likely short-lived) career.
5) focus on establishing good relationships with associates and your fellow summer associates, not just partners. you likely won’t be working directly for partners right away, so neglecting the associates may make it more difficult to establish mentoring relationships with them when you return. many of your fellow summers will end up leaving the firm and may be potential clients, so networking with them now sets up a good path for business development later on.
6) do not procrastinate and be proactive. if you wait until the last minute and jam someone senior to you, they won’t want to work with you again — especially if the time crunch could have been prevented by doing your work in a timely manner.
7) don’t skip training sessions because they are not structured “in a way that is conducive to your learning style”. (and generally refrain from using that phrase at work…)
My officemates were my greatest help when I was a summer and a very new associate. They helped me with a lot of the things that are hard to articulate — how to approach PartnerQ, whether this email is really mean or just sounds that way, when I can ask about this or that scheduling accommodation, etc. So if you can, cultivate that relationship (or another with a pal who is a few years ahead of you.
Quick poll: what year were you married, and did you have professional hair and/or makeup done? (Feel free to also provide data points on friends, sisters, mothers, cousins, etc)
My friends and I were discussing this weekend that we feel like it has become the norm for brides hosting traditional Saturday night dinner/dancing weddings in our circle to have both professional hair and makeup, but that when our mothers were married in the 1980s in very similar weddings, none of them even considered this. We were trying to peg when this trend started and google wasn’t helpful, so would love any data points this community would have!
I got married in 1999. I had a friend do my hair and makeup. I didn’t have a lot of money back then to spend on professionals.
2010, both professionally done. In hindsight, I really wish I could have done my own eyes — I am NOT a crier, but was talked into a waterproof mascara. It didn’t look as good as my normal stuff, and I regret it.
As a participant in weddings since the late 90’s (scattered around the country), professional updos were standard. Professional makeup for everyone (rather than bride only) is a bit more recent IME.
2013, did my own.
2012, every bride I knew had hair and makeup professionally done. I opted out of makeup, because I normally wear NO makeup (not an exaggeration – I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve worn anything other than moisturizer with SPF) and wanted to look like myself. I paid for my bridesmaids’ to have their hair professionally done as well – that was not unheard of but definitely less common than the bride having her hair done.
2016, I had a professional hairstylist do my hair and my bridesmaids’, but we did our own makeup with the help/advice of one of my friends who used to be a professional make up artist.
2017. Professional hair (plus paid for hair for my mom and BMs), did my own makeup. Some people questioned this choice but I had gotten makeup for a shoot and my office and really hated it. I have no regrets – I did a slightly heavier look than usual but still natural, following the techniques and using the products from my Sephora trial, and felt both pretty and like myself. I’m bad at hair so I’m glad I got that done.
2007 and yes, professionally done but would have done it myself if I was good with either.
2005. Had makeup done at the Clinique counter and hair done at a salon. Nails done with the bridesmaids the day before at a walk in place. My bridesmaids did not get hair and makeup done.
I think it largely depends on how fancy (i.e. expensive) the wedding is, and is less of a time period thing. I’ve been to many weddings where the reception is in a hotel, museum, or other rented space that costs $$ – all had professional hair and makeup done, going back to the early 2000s (I don’t know before then, since I wasn’t attending weddings at that time). I’ve also been to many weddings that were more informal, whether the reception was in a park, a church basement, or someone’s backyard. I think one had professional makeup done, but none of the others had professional hair or makeup done. This includes weddings that were in the past month.
2010 bride, professional hair and makeup. Pretty much everyone I know who married before or since then did the same. My mom, MIL, aunts/etc. all got their hair professionally done (and my mother laments that her curls fell out quickly in the humidity) but professional makeup really wasn’t a thing until much more recently.
I think this has more to do with the fact that hair stylists have been around for a lot longer than professional makeup artists. The makeup artist industry has really boomed and evolved in the last decade with the expansion of stores like Sephora and content created on Instagram and YouTube. Makeup artistry is more accessible and respected as a career now than it was before.
This is such a good point! My best guess was something to do with pressure/expectations from social media, but I don’t think that really fits nearly as well as this explanation does.
Last fall, hair yes (for me, bridesmaids and my mom), makeup no. To be fair, I got married in a town with a population of 5,000 on a good day, so it’s not like we had the most extensive set of options anyway, but we lucked out with a fantastic hairstylist and it was money well spent. I justified not having professional makeup by wanting everyone to look/feel as close to their best-but-natural selves as possible, and by pointing out that Kate Middleton did her own (even though her eyeliner makes me wince a little to this day).
My mom had a justice of the peace wedding in 1988, for which I am sure she did her own. Her sister was married a few years earlier and my mom was a bridesmaid, and my grandma brought her hairstylist (a longtime friend) to do their hair.
Last year, and yes. But I am hopeless with hair and makeup. Every wedding I’ve been in (starting in 2006), we’ve had hair done professionally. Makeup is about 50-50, though in the ones we didn’t have makeup professionally done, there was a bridesmaid who was very good at it who was helping those of us who were makeup-challenged.
2002. “Professional” hair that actually looked a mess; wish I’d chosen another salon. Did my own minimalist makeup. Bridesmaids had everything from almost-shaved pixies to long 4a curls, so I encouraged them to do whatever they were most comfortable with, and they mostly went natural/low-key.
2004. Yes, I had professional hair and makeup, as did my mother and my bridesmaids. I was a bridesmaid several times in and around those years and pretty much everyone had professional hair and makeup for the bride and some combination for the wedding party as well.
I got married in 2007. I did my own hair and makeup. I was also 23 and broke, but other people who got married around that time who had more money had their hair and makeup done.
1993. Small-town Kansas. I did not have professional hair & makeup done. I worked with my regular stylist before-hand on how to do my hair, then one of my bridesmaids did my eyes after I had done foundation & blush.
I got married in 2014. I did my hair myself, which I somewhat regret. My little sister, who was working a Sephora at the time, did my makeup. I do not enjoy the whole professional hair & makeup experience AT ALL, and I wanted to have a really relaxed and fun wedding day.
Married in 2015. Had both professional hair and makeup. I have locs so I needed them retightened and styled by a loctitican. Makeup was just a splurge but 100% worth it and it wasn’t that much, maybe $125.
2012 and had professional hair. I did a makeup trial, didn’t like it, and did my own on the actual big day.
Proms/formals are an additional data point. I graduated high school in 2002. Everyone I know had their hair professionally done starting with the 8th grade semi-formal in 1997, and most girls had makeup done at a beauty counter. I did my own, though, because I like to do makeup.
2012-professional hair and makeup for me, professional hair paid for by me for bridesmaids. Most did own make up, some chose to also have professional makeup. All weddings have been in and attended since then had professional hair with some having professional make up too. Another data point: geographic region has been New England area.
I think hair and makeup has always been a thing, my mom had hers done in the 1970s. That said, I think the shift in weddings came about with the rise of the wedding blog, which was around 2007.
2005 wedding in college town at country club (although very much not a country club person). I had hair and make-up done professionally; no one else did.
2009, both done professionally. If anyone in my family were remotely competent I’d have asked them. But they are not.
Every wedding I’ve been to as an adult – 2005 and later- save one (where the bride did her own makeup – and shouldn’t have tbh – but had hair professionally done) has had professional hair and makeup for the bride. Professional makeup and hair for the bridesmaids and mother of the bride are kind of a toss up. I personally had my hair done by my regular stylist with no trial run (I trusted her judgment) and professional makeup at a studio, nails the day before in the salon with a bridesmaid.
I think there are a few factors at play. 1) we simply get married several years later than our parents and so have more resources for things like professional hair and makeup, 2) there are more makeup artists for the average person, 3) camera are much better and pick up makeup flaws more 4) with facebook and instagram, etc we are more photo centric as a society.
Married in 2010. Had professional hair and makeup for me and the bridesmaids (and the moms who wanted it). Every wedding I’ve been in since 2005 has had professional hair and/or makeup, at least for the bride and as an option for bridesmaids. Of course, I have friends who had smaller or more casual weddings and did their own makeup and didn’t have bridesmaids–but I think professional hair and makeup has typical at large Saturday evening weddings with wedding parties and dinner and dancing since at least the mid-2000s.
2005 – professional hair and make up for me, professional hair for most of my bridesmids at their option. Most weddings I was in around that time were doing the same thing. Minneapolis.
2002, and I was fortunate enough to have a professional hair stylist and a professional makeup artist in my wedding party who both helped for free as their gift to me. Otherwise I would probably just have done it myself for cost reasons.
Last year, both professionally done for me and bridesmaids and MOB. I have been bridesmaid three times, about to be one for the fourth, and in all cases we have had professional hair and make-up (although has varied who paid for it).
2002. I had professional hair done, but not makeup.
Married in 1994. My longtime hairstylist came to the hotel and did my hair (it needed to be curled and arranged around a headpiece). I did my own makeup. My bridesmaids and mom did their own hair and makeup.
I was a child in the mid-’90s but was a flower girl in a few weddings and definitely had my hair done while the adult bridesmaids and brides had their hair and makeup done. This was at someone’s house. Hair having to be done around a headpiece was definitely a thing. I remember SO much hairspray and bobby pins! Late ’90s when I was a junior bridesmaid it was a thing to the point that I recall it being normal for the bride to even dictate how her bridesmaids wore their hair.
When I got married in 2017, the makeup artist I used had been doing professional makeup for 30 years, so someone had been hiring her! I think, though, that the point someone made about people having hair stylists but not necessarily a makeup artist rings true. I am of the generation that went to the Bobbi Brown counter to have my first makeup lesson and then my makeup for prom, so I think that contributes. My sister got married on an island in 2009 that didn’t really have a lot of makeup artists and we favor a natural look, so a few of us (bridesmaids and sister/bride) did a lesson on event makeup and all did our own and I remember people being really surprised by that. I wonder if given all the tutorials 0nline and professional products available to the masses now that Gen Z brides will be doing their own makeup and hair again. (I have also seen makeup artists offer event makeup lessons.)
2019, brunch wedding, did professional hair and makeup for myself and my bridesmaids. I paid the salon to open early enough to accommodate us and paid for everyone’s hair and makeup.
2004, Saturday afternoon wedding, my sister (MOH) and mom and I had our makeup and hair done, I did my bridesmaids’ hair and they did their own makeup.
PS – we had a destination wedding so I had the hair/makeup ladies come to us (it was an hour of travel time for them, there were 3 of them, I feel like the travel time was totally reasonably priced though).
Married in 2000; had a professional two person team do hair and makeup for me, my bridesmaids and my mom. MIL declined to participate. I did a “dress rehearsal” of the hair and makeup with my tiara about a month before so that we could try different options.
For additional data points, BFF got married in 1995 and 1997 and both had professional hair, with a split on the makeup.
My mom got married in 196x and had a full-on beehive courtesy of her usual salon but did her own makeup (and query whether she even wore any besides lipstick and mascara — that’s my mom for you). I still adore the black and whites from her wedding; the hairdo along with her short shift dress, curved heel pumps and short veil!
I got married in 1986 (way too young!) and in 2000. Both times I had my hair done at a salon that I traveled to – they didn’t come to me. I did my own minimal makeup the first time.
In 2000, I did my own makeup and then went to get my hair done. The place where I had my hair done (hotel salon) had a makeup artist who wasn’t busy so she came over and touched up my makeup and I have to say what she did made a huge difference and I’m really appreciative she took the time to do that – hopefully I tipped her enough because she didn’t charge me.
Married in 1994. Did my own hair and makeup. And that was the case for the brides at every wedding I attended in the early 90s, with one exception. I don’t think having professionals do either was a thing back then. My one friend had a pretty intricate braided hair-up style that someone did for her, but the rest of us just wore it pretty much as we normally do.
Haha I have data for the whole date range!
1984: Had a friend do my hair, did my own makeup
1999: Had a (different) friend do my hair (he was a professional hairdresser but I wouldn’t have hired anybody if he hadn’t been around), did my own makeup after being unhappy with the professional makeup job I had for my engagement photos
2016: Had a pro do my hair, and a friend who is a makeup artist did my makeup (and yes, I would have hired somebody for makeup if she hadn’t been around)
2015. Prof hair and makeup (including eyelash extensions and spray tan). My usual hairdresser’s assistant did my hair, she was a sweetheart and did a great job. Paid for my bridesmaid’s hair and makeup, she still uses a photo from that day as her profile pic, which makes me happy she liked it so much.
Loved every minute of the whole day, including the prep.
1986. Professional hair, but did my own makeup.
Between 1986 – 1992, was a bridesmaid for friends – generally had hair done professionally, but did makeup ourselves. I think having your hair done for an occasion has been around a lot longer than having makeup done for an occasion … much like having your fingernails done has been around a lot longer than having your toenails done. (Women of my age easily remember when you only put polish on your toenails for a special occasion or summer vacation, not year round.)
2012 wedding, in a big city. I got a blowout from SuperCuts and then did my own hair. I did my own makeup too.
I decided to train for my first marathon. I comfortably run ~10 mi as is at a ~8min/mi pace, so I’m thinking that a September/October race is reasonable. What should I know about my first marathon? Either in terms of picking a race or training? I’m in DC
I love Hal Higdon’s plans. They’re available online for free download/print outs! I would also recommend joining a running group for occasional outings just to get the feel of running long miles in a pack.
Some other notes: scout out the different routes for races (rolling hills? relatively flat? slow climb towards the end?) and nail down your ideal race-day nutrition/sh*t routine. Good luck and remember to have fun with it!
Second all of this. Hal Higdon’s plans have never steered me wrong. And for nutrition as well, I found that if I was going to be running much more than 1h15 any given day, I needed some sort of nutrition to keep from crashing (whether during the run, or when I got home and accidentally falling asleep), but everyone’s different. If it’s a hilly course, make sure to train hills. I loathed running hills, but my race had a sort of “heartbreak hill” and I was SO glad I’d trained the way I did when I zoomed past a ton of folks on the hill who hadn’t prepared themselves for it.
Oh, I’m also in DC, and I enjoyed doing long runs at the Arboretum in NE. It’s a beautiful and slightly hilly 3 mile loop with restrooms scattered throughout, so I would do as many loops as needed to get my miles in, and I could stop by my car on every-other-loop to pick up a fresh water bottle or whatever. It’s gorgeous and generally safe from crazy drivers as there’s such little traffic in the park.
I’ve run six wholes and about 20 halves, and I’ve found that training plans are pretty interchangeable. As long as you’re building mileage slowly and sustainably, taking rest days, and getting in a long run every week or so, you’re really going to be okay. My best advice is to protect your immune system as much as possible, because all that running can absolutely increase your susceptibility to things. Get your flu shot as soon as they’re offered, carry around hand sanitizer, get good sleep, drink plenty of water, etc.
Picking a race is pretty personal. Do you like a big city, high energy race? Or do you prefer something kinda quiet and scenic? The Hartford Marathon has a pretty good mix of both urban and rural without too many hills. I hear good things about the Wineglass in Bath, NY. The Rt 66 in Oklahoma City has great spectators, and OKC is an unexpectedly attractive city.
It’s in November, but I want to give the Richmond Marathon a plug. It’s a great race: super well-organized, very good infrastructure for support, beautiful course, enough runners that you feel like you’re doing a Big Race but it’s not packed like Chicago or NYC…and it’s FLAT. (Also, I will be running!) I would highly recommend signing up for one of the pace teams. That took away a lot of the mental stress of worrying about whether I was running the right speed, plus it was a good way to have people to talk to so I stayed out of my head.
My other big recommendation would be to try to find a local running group with a summer training program. I’ve had a friend do the one through DC Road Runners and he seemed to enjoy it, although I don’t have a ton of specific feedback on it. They are SO helpful since they’ll give you a training program; you’ll have experienced runners to ask questions to when things inevitably go awry; you’ll have a group for long runs; and they’re also a great way to meet people. All of my best “adult” friends have been made through summer training programs for fall races.
Cool! is the route generally well shaded? I’m trying to avoid sun exposure and one can only reapply so much sunscreen when one is sweating a ton :)
Hmm, I’d say it’s pretty…medium? Most of the route is through neighborhoods with good tree coverage, but there are definitely stretches without shade coverage. If you look at a map of the route, the two bridge crossings are obviously not shaded, the stretch from the Lee Bridge to the Diamond is going to be pretty sunny, and then the last couple of the miles are in and out of shade depending on the angle of the sun vs. buildings.
I second the Richmond Marathon. I’ve only done one full and this was it. LOVED it. Great crowd support, pretty scenery. I didn’t think it was flat, but it’s definitely doable.
I think you can definitely aim for a race in September/October. Most marathon training plans are about 16 weeks and a lot of them are geared towards runners who are not starting at your level. Hal Higdon’s plans are very good. I’d also suggest looking for a training group. Even if you’re normally a solo runner, it can be really nice to have the courses mapped out for longer runs and be helpful for providing comfort stations, etc. on those runs as a first-timer, and helping with mid-race nutrition, etc.
About a dozen eyebrow hairs on one of my eyebrows (but none on the other side) have been bending and breaking off in the past few weeks, leaving the part of the affected eyebrow toward my nose looking sparse. Does anyone have any idea why this might be happening? It’s only one brow and I haven’t changed any products or suffered any kind of trauma or anything. They are breaking off though not being pulled at the root, so there’s still a stub piece to each one. I cant figure out what’s going on. Is this worth seeing my pcp?
Are you losing weight or under a lot of stress? I lost a significant amount of weight one summer, and half of an eyebrow fell out. It eventually grew back.
This seems strange enough to me (though maybe others have heard of this?) that it would warrant a trip to your PCP or derm, unless it corrects itself (perhaps it was a random seemingly-small trauma you’ve forgotten about).
+1 bare eyebrow patch was the first sign of my brother’s alopecia.
Broken hairs that break after the root aren’t the same as alopecia though.
Sleeping funny? New pillow? New pillowcase?
I think of strength of hair as a “nutrition” thing (vs. hair just falling out at the root or not growing, which can be a lot of things). I’d want a thyroid panel and anything else the PCP suggests, but if those tests are normal, I’d want to make sure my vitamin levels and diet were okay. We don’t have reliable laboratory tests for every nutritional deficiency, but a dietitian can review your diet to see if something’s missing. I eat a healthy diet, but I have low calorie needs, and it was clear when we diet tracked that I wasn’t coming close to achieving my micronutrient targets over a two week period.
Have you tried to address it to see if it’s nutritional or cosmetic first? I don’t know if this is something I’d spend money or time on a PCP visit without seeing if a few basic things work first: 1) stress management, 2) taking your multivitamins, 3) smoothing a drop of oil (jojoba, vitamin E, or Moroccan oil) split between your brows at night, 4) using a brow gel to brush them in the direction of growth to set them for the day.
I would see the doctor. (Could this be ringworm? I may spend too much time around cats…)
Losing part of your eyebrows can be a sign of a thyroid condition. It’s a common first symptom – I would see your PCP if you have one.
Help me think through my annoyance with this guy I’m seeing? We’ve been hanging out for close to three months.
This weekend was the third time he’s canceled plans with me because of family stuff that he should’ve known about before even making plans. Here’s the pattern – we’ll make plans about a week or two ahead of time, I’ll confirm either the day of or the day before, at which point he tells me oh well actually he has plans that day, and he doesn’t apologize for the mix up, he just acts like it’s nbd.
I find this all pretty inconsiderate. If you made a mistake and double booked yourself, then you tell the person when you realize that and you apologize for your error. You don’t wait until they confirm. Like, when were you going to tell me? Did you think I’d forget and you’d be off the hook? If I didn’t confirm would you have just stood me up? I’m not sure I want to see him again, but I’m also not sure how to communicate that without him walking away with the impression that I broke up with him because he spent Mother’s Day with his mom (fwiw, we’d planned to watch GOT and spend the night, so it did not occur to me that that might interfere with mom plans). He texted me this morning acting like nothing happened and I’m not sure how to respond. Am I being totally unreasonable?
Break up with him. He’s an inconsiderate ass who will only get more inconsiderate as time goes on. Who care what impression he walks away with?
+1
I think before you jump to break up, use your words. “Hey, yesterday was the third time you bailed on plans with me, without really reaching out to me or apologizing. I’m not okay with it. We are all busy, but I expect you to actually check your calendar when we make plans and if it turns out stuff happens, let me know right away and apologize. Is that something you can do?”
I think that this is spending too much effort on him.
And, honestly, I’d not be with my mom at 9 at night, which is when GOT is on. I don’t think they really conflict. My mom is a lunch or dinner mother’s day (or any other weekend) person, not an after 7 or 8 person.
+1 this is too much effort. By the time you’re *asking someone to apologize to you,* let alone show the bare minimum of courtesy, you’ve lowered the bar too far.
I know of what I speak! I had been dating a guy for about 2 months when, 2 nights in a row, he failed to follow through with plans we had, and didn’t even properly cancel! I had to ask him “is this not a good time?” and drag out of him that it wasn’t going to happen. I’m saying that “use your words” is unnecessary because I tried that. I said “when you know I’ve set aside time for you, it’s much kinder and more considerate to cancel directly, and do so well in advance.” He’s in his late 30s. That straightened him out briefly, but pretty soon he was showing other signs of the same carelessness. Don’t wait around like I did; it’s just going to be more of the same.
I wouldn’t do this. You’re 3 months in, so if he really wants to spend time with you, he’s going to make it happen. I don’t mean that harshly–it’s a conversation I’ve had with myself about a million times. I’d break it off.
Why even give him the chance? He either isn’t into it or is totally, completely, inconsiderate. Either way, adios.
I see no need to speak to a man I am dating the way I’d speak to a child about my expectations for their behavior. Unless he’s been living under a rock or was raised by wolves or was a child star who never learned that other people matter, he knows what is expected and didn’t do it.
Yep, that kind of inconsiderate behavior was why I dumped the guy I started dating. I don’t understand how grown adults think they don’t need to have manners and behave in a considerate way toward someone they want to date.
Boi bye.
He doesn’t respect your time. You are initiating plans that he not only doesn’t keep, but then you have to confirm to find out they are cancelled last minute. Basically, it sounds like planning time together is your responsibility, but completely depending on his schedule, which is subject to change on a whim. You are also likely sacrificing other plans with friends or family that you could be attending by holding space for him only to have him cancel last minute. At the end of the day, if he wants to spend time with you, he will make it happen. If he isn’t initiating or is taking your plans as optional, then that tells you what his priorities are and you need to determine if you are okay with that.
To be fair, he initiates plans too. He’s actually pretty great at planning dates, even if it’s just cooking dinner at home (and yes, he plans and executes the menu without playing 20 questions with me – which I appreciate). Usually we’ll both mention any upcoming plans in conversation; I’m learning that if he hasn’t mentioned it and I feel the need to confirm, then it’s probably canceled. It’s so odd.
This is crazy-making. Everything is still on his terms and at his whim–but it’s just enough to keep you invested. I recommend reading about “emotional unavailability” on Baggage Reclaim. I’ve found that every single time someone is unreliable on planning, they are also unreliable emotionally.
I’m torn between thinking you should just walk now vs. speaking up. I guess I don’t really think that speaking up will remedy the situation and will just needlessly drag the situation out? Maybe it depends on both of your ages. If you are in your mid-20s, perhaps he just hasn’t learned this yet (not that it’s excusable, just mentioning it because it seems more likely that it’s correctable). If he’s in his 30s or up, this isn’t going to change and would drive me batty. It would also be an indication to me that he’s just not very into dating me, for whatever reason (not necessarily related to me), which is a deal breaker for me.
I have very little patience for someone who does not respect my time. Not only is he cancelling plans on you, but he doesn’t even appear to remember you HAD plans in the first place. My first instinct here is “this guy is not making you a priority, repetitively. Time to move on.”
What you allow will continue.
As long as you allow this behavior without calling him out on it, he’s going to think it’s okay. You either need to discuss it with him and see if it changes anything or decide if you can live with it. If you discuss it with him and nothing changes, he’s either clueless or inconsiderate – and in either case, I’d dump him. My time is too valuable for this sh!t.
If you decide you can live with it, be prepared for it to continue and likely get worse. You both are still in the “best behavior” stage of the relationship. You know your tolerance levels for this kind of behavior. I know it would make me absolutely crazy and we’d be having a rather unceremonious curb-kicking if I were in your high-heeled shoes, but YMMV.
Nope, this would definitely be a deal breaker for me. I can’t stand when people flake out on plans at the last minute. I’ve let a couple of friendships fizzle out because of this. And especially since it doesn’t appear he’s sorry about it or bummed that you two aren’t hanging out. Good riddance!
Have you read “He’s just not that into you”? I highly recommend it. Basically, this is a situation where you can infer he’s just not that into you. He’s happy to hang out with you when he has nothing else going on, but if he does get a better offer, he doesn’t prioritize you. He should be the one checking in with YOU to confirm plans, not vice versa.
Was thinking the same thing. Confirming plans at three months was the red flag for me. I really appreciated the advice in that book. There’s something freeing in accepting the fact that you get along, but you are just not a good match in his eyes….and that’s ok.
Agree with it being very freeing. It allows you not to feel like you have to do things a certain way or make things happen for a relationship to work out — if a guy is into you, it’ll work out, if he’s not, it won’t!
I’ll play devil’s advocate here and wonder if you both are not aligned in the way the plans are made. In your mind, you have made plans together. In his mind, there is just a suggestion of getting together that weekend, but it’s not final until it is confirmed the day before. Not dating, but I have had this situation with a friend where I text “maybe next saturday then?” and she’s all “yes, it’s been a while, we should totally meet up!”. But come saturday, and I get in touch, but it turns out she has something in the evening, and a little chore in the morning, but maybe I can come over in between, but in the end we both decide the time won’t work out and we push to the next weekend. I’d give him another chance, and mildly mention that he’s cancelled a couple times, hope this can be a firm date.
Did anyone see this question on Captain Awkward from a lawyer about her relationship with a partner? It seriously had my jaw dropping. https://captainawkward.com/2019/05/08/1198-how-do-i-deal-with-work-burnout-and-make-my-partner-happy-my-partner-my-boss-who-is-a-partner-in-the-law-firm-where-i-work/#more-46498
Wow really would have appreciated a NSFW warning on that
Sorry. I don’t think this is NSFW for most people, and I read it at work. But if text that uses BDSM as a metaphor for a professional relationship is inappropriate for your workplace, do not click.
This is really not NSFW…it’s just a wall of text, no images and nothing that jumps out as obviously s3xual.
What? The only reason that would be NSFW is if you have a very strict workplace keyword filter without any human checks. Also, there was enough of a hint in the lead in text that you either shouldn’t have clicked if you are in such a workplace, or could have asked here for more context before clicking.
Oh….my.
Oooh yeah I read that yesterday and thought it was SO relevant to this s*te.
The part about “insecure overachievers” really got me. I feel like I see that dynamic play out in the comments section here every. damn. day. (I say that as someone who used to be an insecure overachiever, who somehow had the self-awareness at like, 20? 21? to realize I needed to find an off-ramp before I destroyed myself.)
Yes, so much this. Signed, one who falls smack into this category and only realized it at age 28 after three years of all-nighters in Biglaw.
Agreed. I needed to read this today. (The insecure overachiever part more so than the actual letter writer, although I empathize.) How’d you find that off ramp!? I really, desperately need to find mine….
I think it was a little easier because I was still in college. But basically, my high school was a super-competitive and I was pretty burned out when I graduated. My university has a reputation for being a pressure cooker full of status-obsessed social climbers. I was in the honors dorm, and realized that I didn’t want to be living like the other girls in my dorm. The thought of doing all of the things they were doing, that I’d been doing for all four years of high school–staying up until 2am studying every night, taking 18 credits for no discernible reason because we all had buckets of AP credit, picking clubs based on what would be the best resume-booster–just made me feel trapped and exhausted.
Then I hated the people in the status-y major I initially planned to declare, so picked something I enjoyed that didn’t fill me with dread every time I went to a discussion section. Because it wasn’t that I wasn’t smart enough: it was that they were a bunch of people who had drastically different values and goals than I did. Once I declared, my academic advisor told me I should apply to the honors program in my major because “it will look good on your applications for PhDs or law school,” and I realized I had no interest in 1) a PhD in that field, 2) law school, or 3) jumping through hoops to gain external validation of my intelligence and worthiness.
I think everything else has flowed out of that.
Wow.
Yeah, that was the weirdest thing I’ve read in a long time. I also immediately thought of the movie Secretary, so I’m glad to see Captain Awkward went in the same direction.
Thank you for posting this. I’m a little embarrassed to admit it, but there’s a lot of me in this letter and response. I worked at a firm straight out of law school for 5+ years and was the right hand for one of the main partners. I honestly could have written a lot of this letter, including the parts about feeling personally close to him and having a lot of insecurity over whether he was going to replace me at some point. (Though I didn’t call him “my partner”— I always knew he was my boss…)
I finally realized exactly what Captain Awkward pointed out— if the work is at a point where I can’t take time off and take basic care of myself because the partner chooses not to hire more people, maaayyyybe my well-being isn’t his focus. I ended up finding another job. I’ve now been gone over a year and he’s reached out exactly once. Because he needed something.
Also the part about insecure overachievers hit home SO HARD. I’ve been telling people at my old firm that I think law firms purposely seek out people with those characteristics, but I never had a name for it. Oof. I’m trying to get over those tendencies but it’s so so hard.
Same here. And I’ve mentored at least 3 people with the same description.
“Also the part about insecure overachievers hit home SO HARD. I’ve been telling people at my old firm that I think law firms purposely seek out people with those characteristics, but I never had a name for it. Oof. I’m trying to get over those tendencies but it’s so so hard.”
Yes, they do. The most secure people I know had the most brutal time (grades aside) with hiring into the big law firms.
Holy … shite.
I was so confused reading the response. I definitely thought LW was talking about a romantic as well as work partner.
I saw it as the letter-writer had a lot of limerence towards a boss who seemed to be a genuinely nice and caring person, but she was reading way more into it than there really was. I had a similar male boss and we got along famously and knew a lot about one another’s personal lives, and he genuinely did care for me as a person, and it would have been very easy for me to have thought about him to the depths that the LW did if I didn’t monitor myself.
My boyfriend and I are talking about moving in together. This is a huge step for me – I’ve never lived with a guy I’m dating before. I always thought I wouldn’t move in with a guy until I was engaged, but I really love my boyfriend, want to spend all my time with him, and think this is a good step for us (and I think we will be engaged before the year is out). I’m so excited!
Anyways, my questions:
First, how did you decide to split expenses when you moved in together? Hopefully this won’t matter because we will get married, but I still want to be fair to him. I own my house (with a $3k mortgage), when he is renting a one bedroom apartment (rent of about $1,500). For obvious reasons, it makes sense for him to move in with me. He proposed contributing $1,500 to the mortgage, but that doesn’t seem fair to me. Although the total cost is $3k, over $1k of that is paying off the principal. I was thinking of suggesting that he pay $1k and hire a monthly housekeeping service (not that it gets him out of chores, but I would like to have a housekeeper since there will now be two of us and the cost makes more sense now). Thoughts?
Second, how do I make the house more “our space” and less “my space”? He doesn’t have much nicer stuff, cause he just doesn’t care about that stuff, and I’ve been making my house a home for the past five years, so I suspect that most of the furniture, dishes, etc. will be mine. I’ve making room for his stuff in the closet, bookshelves, etc. but any other ideas?
Most important: have you talked about getting engaged? What are his thoughts? What’s his timeline?
For the financial side, I’d try to think of it as if you were renting the place together. Look around to see what market rent for your house would be and then he should pay you half of that (the amount of your mortgage payment, principal balance, etc. is not relevant–if you owned the house outright, he should still pay something). Likewise, you should cover upkeep and maintenance (as a landlord would). Utilities and other bills (including housekeeping) should be split in half. You should definitely get a housekeeper! It doesn’t (by any means) eliminate chores, but it will keep the place at a base level of cleanliness (maybe not tidiness, though).
Personally, I’d split the 3k evenly and not worry about the principle issue. If you marry, great, you’ll be splitting the cost anyway and if it doesn’t work out, it’s like you had a tenant for a while – he’s getting to live there at the same cost as he was before, sounds fair to me.
On decorating, my solution was to redo some things to make them less just me and more us (painted and decorated in a more restoration hardware style than my single girl Anthropologie style) and fold in some of his favorite pieces.
*principal, and also, I’d get a housekeeper regardless – I found that to be the key to domestic bliss
+1 on the housekeeper!
I’d split it evenly, too. Presumably $1500 is below-market rent, which offsets the fact that you are benefiting from paying down the principal.
I agree. And don’t forget there are many, many costs of home ownership beyond the mortgage.
I’m first going to answer the question you didn’t ask. Please please please make sure you are on the same page as far as this being a next step in the relationship and that the plan is to be engaged in the next year. Or, that if you never got engaged, you’d be ok with that. Nothing is a relationship killer like living together while WAITING for a man to propose; both of you need to have a clear understanding of expectations and timelines.
Beyond that, my boyfriend did also move in with me in the house I own. Due to income difference and his prior decision to rent a condo that was significantly less pricey than my house, we ended up settling on him paying the same to me as his rent was (so $1500 in your case). It meant my decision to live somewhere move expensive didn’t require him to pay more than his own decisions did, but also didn’t make me or him feel like I was funding more than was fair while we were deciding if things worked.
As for making if your joint home – that’s a conversation you need to have directly with him. My situation was nearly identical here. Explain the default you are expecting. Ask his thoughts and listen. In my case, he was mostly fine with my stuff but had a few non-fine art items he was really attached to and wanted displayed prominently. Honestly my first reaction was that they don’t “go” with the house but accepting them made a huge difference in it being our home and now I basically don’t notice them.
Agree so much. This is good advice anyway, and even more true when he is living in your house. If he refuses to propose, or just drags his feet, it’s not like you can move out and move on.
I’ve never really understood the position that my SO shouldn’t have to split the mortgage/pay fair market value for rent (whichever’s lower) because I’m paying off principal on my house. I’m not “profiting” on my SO’s contributions until I sell the house. And who knows if there will be any profit – maybe the house will need significant repairs and I won’t realize any net profit, there’s just no way to know, today, that I’m going to walk away from settlement with a nice check. Plus, if I’m living with someone then I want to still be with him when I sell the house, which means he’ll benefit from any profits (including whatever I put into the house before him), too.
For your second point – I’ve had two guys move into my space and this has been a source of tension because I have nice stuff and they had basically nothing. I’d pick out new everyday things, like linens and dishes, maybe some wall art or rugs, paint a couple of rooms, and make sure every room has something that he selects. My struggle has been that they don’t necessarily want new stuff, they don’t have old stuff, but they feel suffocated by my stuff (but I don’t want to live with bare walls/rooms).
I believe there are lots of fair ways to split household expenses. But here, splitting the mortgage/rent evenly makes sense to me, absent some circumstance you left out of the original post. First, he’s paying $1500 now, so (a) it seems like that’s consistent with the market, and (b) it seems like he can afford it. Second, it is fair for you to “benefit” in terms of making your principal payment. If he rents on the market, his landlord gets the same benefit. Also, as the owner, you’re bearing the risk associated with being a homeowner, and presumably, you’ll be responsible for any repairs and improvements. I wouldn’t expect him to pay for half of a roof or plumbing repair while he’s renting from you.
Besides the “rent,” I’d think of other expenses, like utilities and groceries, separately and split those in a way that seems fair (evenly, or even percentages into a joint account). A housekeeper may be part of this, but that’s up to the two of you to decide. Even if the money is a wash at first, I think it’s better to split the rent and for you to pay for the housekeeper (and even better to split it) because housekeeper expenses are variable (which service to use, how often they come) and a luxury that’s easy to cut if finances change for one or both of you.
Don’t do it. What’s the incentive to get married if you’re living together and he’s basically getting milk w/o buying the cow? You can still spend a lot of time together without moving in. I think you should have more respect for yourself and not move in with him until you’re married. I know this will be unpopular advice, but I think it needs to be said. If you think moving in will get you closer to getting engaged or married, it’ll be quite the opposite.
I say this as someone who did not move in with her husband until after marriage: because she’s a human and not a commodity.
The right man will absolutely be okay with you holding out for engagement and a wedding date before moving in, or a wedding, or whatever. “Moving in” does NOT have to be a trial period for engagement or marriage, and is not something women are required to do.
But seriously, we aren’t commodities.
I couldn’t agree more. I just got married 2 years ago and didn’t live with him before. He wanted to, but I said no. Yes, we gardened and he slept over on occasion, but we did not live together and he asked me to marry him and said he was happy we never lived together. It made the wedding so much more fun and after the honeymoon, we got our own place together to start our lives. I wouldn’t change a thing!
This is going to be an unpopular piece of advice because it’s inaccurate and s*xist.
Not what anyone asked, but anytime I see this phrase now, I immediately think of John Mulaney’s bit on this phrase. YMMV on whether you find it amusing.
+1 love that bit
It’s such a logical fallacy to assume that if people reject your advice it’s because they know you’re Speaking Truth but they’re defensive and don’t want to admit it.
It’s also asinine to assume that the given justification for this advice is sound. There are plenty of solid reasons to not move in together at this stage in the relationship, such as differing expectations and timelines for engagement and/or marriage, concerns of financial inequality (she sounds much more well-to-do than him), or the inability to remove herself from the relationship if it goes south (since he is living there).
NONE of that has anything to do with turning her into a commodity.
I’d recommend talking to an accountant about the tax implications of you split expenses. If he pays you rent, you may need to claim that as income. It may be offset against your actual costs and not result in net reportable income, but you should just confirm. If that would cause your taxable income to increase, see about other ways he could contribute effectively $1500 to shared expenses without it being characterized as “rent” payment — can he buy all of the groceries and meals out up to $1500/month, pay the cable/internet bill, pay for lawn/cleaning service, etc.?
Just to clarify, this is considered a sharing of expenses, and not rent – it isn’t reportable and won’t increase her income.
This summer I’m going to be working in my org’s New Orleans office. They’re on the dressier side of business casual, and I’ll be bike commuting as well as walking between locations during the workday. Please give me all your hottest (ha) tips for staying professionally composed when the weather is hellaciously hot.
I would not bike commute in NOLA in the summer. That’s just stupid.
Yeah, agree with this. Unless you can shower and dress when you get to the office, this literally isn’t doable for a professional environment.
I think if you are going to bike and walk in New Orleans in summer, you are just going to have to accept that you will be soaked in sweat when you arrive at your destination and plan accordingly.
Ah! I just reread what you said that it’s this summer. I was going to respond that it’s been abnormally cool and less humid this spring. But yeah, this summer, I would say wear a skirt (one you can bike in – maybe with slipshorts under?) and a tank with a sweater or jacket that you can put on indoors. My office isn’t dressy at all, so I can’t comment as much on that. Not sure how you can bike commute in anything dressier. But wearing something where you can add a layer, but be otherwise fairly bare is how we survive. Also, anti-humidity hairspray and your hair dryer on the cool setting could be your friend. Makeup that won’t melt or run.
I’m not in NOLA but have worked in Houston in a dressy business casual environment and now live in Austin (where it is hotter but drier) and that sounds miserable to me! You may have a much higher tolerance for heat and humidity than I do, though. I really hate “smelling like outside” while I’m in work clothes and then having to work in them all day. The only times I could manage to bike commute to work in Austin would be winter and some weeks of spring and fall (though not all). Spring ended in March, by the way (though we did get an amazing cool shot this weekend!!).
To answer your actual question, I would plan to change your entire outfit, somehow wipe your body and face down, and then put on your make up at the office. You’ll need a lot of dry shampoo, whatever you do with your hair…unless maybe you have stick straight hair and leave it wet for the ride? But then helmet hair? Bleh.
I’m familiar with all 3 of those cities and I would definitely not have a bike commute in the summer in any of them unless I could shower and get ready at my destination.
Honestly, I don’t mind the heat if I can be dressed for it. But business casual is not dressing for it as you’ll want to take into account freezing AC temperatures as well.
Yikes, the summer I lived in NOLA it also rained every day randomly, I was soaked with sweat and rain. My best tip is car commute.
Yeah, there are def summers where we have significant downpours in the afternoon, when the humidity is so high that rain is inevitable. I think we’ve had that less in the past few years, but it’s always a possibility.
How far will you be biking? IMHO the best thing to do is wear actual bike kit, and wipe down and change at work. Maybe it’s personal preference, but even if I’m only riding 5 miles or so it’s humid where I am, and once I get sweaty in a set of clothes, it’s hard to come back from it. Add panniers on your bike if you don’t have them already so you can carry your stuff without adding a sweaty backpack. If you can shower at work, awesome, if not, definitely wipe down, reapply deo, dry shampoo your hair for freshness, touch up makeup. Also check out Megababe products – thigh rescue and bust dust saved me last summer.
You’re not getting great tips because there are none – this is a terrible idea. Literally unless you plan to shower and get dressed at work, you will never be appropriately business casual because you’ll stink and have sweat stained closed and darn near wet and/or frizzy hair from the summer heat and humidity.
If you must – accept that you’ll always smell a little like sweat, bring your entire set of clothes to work and change there (including bra and underwear), and keep a big bucket of babywipes to essentially give yourself an “essential parts” sink bath. You’ll still obviously have biked to work, but it will be bearable for coworkers.
But please be kind to yourself. As a fellow gulf coaster in high humidity coastal city, you just can’t win here. Even a two block slow walk will have you sweating bullets clothes in 90% humidity and 95 degrees.
I agree with others that bike commuting and going straight into work does not seem feasible in the summer in New Orleans. If you’re working downtown, I think your best option would be to join a nearby gym solely for access to the locker room. As for walking between locations, wear and sleeveless blouses and carrying your jacket with you. You’ll arrive sweaty, but people understand that that’s just how it is.
Also, bike commuting to downtown New Orleans is not very safe. (You didn’t say you’d be downtown though.) Uptown would be fine, but downtown is crazy, and cars don’t respect cyclists or cycling lanes at all.
Oh yeah, I hadn’t thought about the gym thing. One of my supervisees used to bike to work and she would stop at the gym and shower before work. I think that would be harder in a more formal environment, though.
Don’t wear cotton underwear. They will take forever to dry.
Another New Orleans reader here. I think the only solution is to change completely when you get to work, bra included. It’s very very hot. Even if you don’t feel hot ON the bike, you will be when you stop riding. Most offices are air conditioned to the maximum though, so if you have ice water and a few minutes to compose yourself in a bathroom stall, you’ll probably be ok.
I live in NOLA and walk to work year round. You can definitely bike to work! Many of my colleagues do, even from across town. Most of NOLA is flat, so if you ride at a reasonable pace, you don’t really get that sweaty. Most of my colleagues who ride will bring clothes to change into for the work day. As a walker, I will walk in comfortable shoes and change when I get to work. Yes, it does rain in the summer, but I was surprised to realize that it’s usually just in late afternoon. So, you’d miss it during commuting time. On the occasions when it is raining during commute times, you get a ride or ride the bus or streetcar or take a ride share (I’ve done all of these options). Good idea to keep extra deodorant, makeup, etc. at work in case you need it, but if you are commuting around 8am, it’s really not that hot yet. The only factor that might affect this is if your bike commute is solely along streets without shade. You can do it! Don’t let these naysayers discourage you!!
Years ago I got the Ann Taylor gray marled knit material jacket. It was so popular I got a larger size than I usually wear and have loved it (although it is boxier than I’d prefer). It is now starting to pill, but is a fantastic piece because it is much warmer than the MMLF jardigan and isn’t casual / sloppy like my cardigans (which also pill). It is also just a sharper piece.
Do you (or does anyone) have a good replacement to nominate? I fear that some place like St. John might have something (b/c I routinely search other places), but would consider even that based on the $/wear I’ve gotten from this one (like if it had to-the-wrist sleeves vs 3/4 sleeves, I’d wear all.the.time).
Thanks!
You could try a sweater shaver first!
I know — it’s been helpful to a point, but it’s a nubby fabric with high acrylic content. It wasn’t designed to be a lifetime piece, if you now what I mean, and I think it’s just time to identify a replacement.
If you can figure out the model number or find the formal name, you might be able to stalk poshmark and ebay for one. Or, look for a St. John’s piece on Poshmark.
I have no ideas but my Ann Taylor jacket is starting to look a tiny bit ratty, too. SO SAD! Love it so much.
Following along with much interest…
How often do you switch out your primary summer flip flops? I have a pair of Olukai (so like $60 ones, not throwaway $5 ones) that are 2 years old that I wear pretty much all the time during summers. They look okay, a bit dingy but I could try to clean them, but I’m wondering if the footbed support starts to go kind of like running shoes?
I buy new Birkenstocks every year … but don’t toss the old ones until they are so gross I’m ashamed to wear them
I get new Olukai every 1-2 years. In addition to looking a little worn, I find that the support flattens out over time and the soles seem to get slick with the heat. Go try a new pair and you’ll see the breakdown in the old ones.
I pretty much wear them until they die. I had a pair of Tommy Hilfiger that I loved and wore until the soles were so worn I almost slipped on several (rainy) occasions. That was when I finally threw them out.
Every 2-3 years for my Rainbows. Lifespan depends on how many times I’ve gotten caught in the rain, which does not help the supportive footbed last longer…
Uh, I just bought a new pair this weekend for the first time since…high school? Early high school? I replaced them with the same style (Reefs). The old ones fit me perfectly and I’d worn them in to the point they felt like slippers but they’re looking kind of rough so I replaced them.
I’ve got a 3-year-old pair of Reefs and they look almost new. I got an all-black pair which helps hide any grottiness.
3-4 years for Rainbows.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the support; flip flops are terrible for your feet in general, so that’s a minimal factor in comparison.
Are toe taps a thing for women’s shoes and do they work? I’m really hard on heels and always seem to scuff the toes super quickly. Looking for something that might be helpful in prolonging the life of otherwise still lovely shoes.
I have some on my pointy pumps (assuming you mean the tiny triangular plastic things they put on the sole?), and they seem to be working. I seem to scuff the toe less on shoes that have them.
+1
Thanks!
Single travel tips? I’ve done a ton of travel with friends but branching out on my own. Any place you’ve particularly liked? I’m thinking North American or Europe, with a European preference. Would love to meet a hot euro guy and spend the week getting to know him, but in reality I’m shy and reserved and will probably not do that.
It will be easy to meet a European guy if you want to – I’ve traveled to Europe solo (for work) and with girlfriends and have been hit on, accosted, followed, etc. by men dozens of times. I’m average looking, very shy and am almost never overtly hit on in the United States. I’d just be careful, because these very forward guys are hitting on everyone, presumably sleeping with a lot of women, and may not have the best intentions.
In no particular order: Paris, Amsterdam, Prague, Berlin, Barcelona, Lisbon, Porto, and Vienna.
My go-to for solo trips are free walking tours. They’re in most major touristy cities and usually have a good number of solo travellers — good for getting together and chatting people up without pressure. You “tip” the guide at the end of the tour however much you think it was worth (the guides usually give you a ballpark figure for comparable tours, but I’ve tipped less/more depending on how many people were in the tour, how long/good the tour was, etc.).
Iceland is very safe and very fun to travel to solo.
I loved Iceland! I drove the Ring Road by myself and had a blast. I also did Rome on my own.
Paris is always nice for strolling around, shop, and people watch. And it’s an easy flight from North America.
Another option that will require some kind of connection is Southern Spain. It’s super chill and tapas culture is such that you can bar hop instead of sticking around through an entire meal at a table all alone. It’d be a good way to meet other tapas hoppers too.
Last summer I did Cape Cod solo for several days, and capped the trip with a weekend in Boston, and had a great time – I stayed in a B&B-esque Airbnb and the couple who owned it were wonderful. I had a great time getting to know them and I made friends with the other guests, we even went out one night for dinner and drinks. I took a day trip to Nantucket, and drove all around seeing different places and beaches on the cape, and loved my whole experience. I’m hoping to do Ireland solo this year, and follow a similar formula – B&Bs, looking specifically for reviews about having great, friendly hosts.
Has anyone in the hive done one of those double decker bus tours in London? Was it fun or no? I am going to be there for a short time with my family and thought it might be an easy way to see the city. I love the ducks tours in both Seattle and Boston so I’m looking for something equivalent in London. Thanks.
It’s touristy but fun and I would recommend it especially if it’s your first visit to the city.
I did one the first time I went to London, and it was cheesy but great. FWIW, I’m taking my SO to London for the first time this summer, and plan to do another one: we don’t have that much time and I think it’s the easiest way to hit all the highlights.
Yes, we did it when we only had two days in London. We did the Hop-on-hop-off bus and were able to superficially see everything, while still getting off and seeing the things we were interested in in-depth. I would recommend it if you only have a short time and want to see a lot of stuff.
I’ve never done one, but would advise checking the route out of where they go and making sure none of the various road closures/protests/events are likely to cause significant traffic or detours along the route on the days you’re here for the bits you want to see. A lot of the Big Sights are far enough spread out that the Tube really does make more sense (and station staff are super helpful) and there are great tours you can do on foot (check out walks.com, whose walks I always take visitors on or send them on while I’m at work) or on site (Tower of London).
It’s great when you only have a small amount of time and need to get oriented. It’s great to use as a prepaid taxi to get to and from the major attractions in a city. And it’s a great way to take a break when your feet get tired from all the walking (especially with little kids). Who cares about looking like a tourist – you are a tourist! Go for it.
(Potentially a double post in substance — I tried to post a longer version on my commute, but it disappeared between subway stations)
I work from home, and my job entails lots of phone calls. I have been using my cell phone without any issue for several years, but suddenly my phone is having a lot of trouble making, receiving and holding calls. I just got off the phone with my provider, and am hopeful that there is an easy solution for this. But I should probably also have a backup method for making calls from home when cell service is down. How does one do this (short of installing a landline)? Is this what Skype is for, or will that not work if cell service is down? What other options are out there? Thanks!
Doesn’t your cell phone have wifi calling? Most do.
But you can do Skype calls and Google Voice calls via the computer, and use What’s App calls on your phone if you have reliable wifi. Or make life easy for yourself and get a landline using VOIP (basically a wifi based land line) which is typically ten bucks a month or less on the budget services.
Do you have wifi calling enabled on your phone? That way your phone calls over your home wifi network instead of cell towers. Discovered when I lived in a basement apartment.
I agree that wifi calling is awesome! Be careful if you’re on the phone with someone and you leave your wifi area. You’ll get dropped. I used to start a conference call at home and listen during my commute, but I would get dropped and it took me a while to figure it out.
Thoughts on RtR for wedding (guest) attire? Haven’t been to a wedding in quite a while and the idea of RTR or similar sounds appealing in theory.
We have two weddings coming up in late summer / early fall. They are on opposite sides of the family so very, very few duplicate attendees. I should add that I am NOT a shopper, minimalist in my closet, and anything that I buy will likely wind up getting donated within a year (just bc closet clutter drives me nuts).
Both are evening weddings with unspecified dress code. One is easily assumed to be black tie/cocktail, the other SAYS black tie, but is on a beach. There is a high likelihood it is NOT black tie but the family hasn’t sorted this out yet.
I am 5-2 with a long torso, short legs, apple, size 6.
I was browsing RTR this weekend and found a few dresses that would probably be great. But, the whole notion of receiving the dress even a week in advance and the possibility of having it not work… even if I ordered two… ugh. I would need to order mid-thigh length dresses and pray that they hit me in a good spot (knee length and midi are typically too long on me and look hideous).
Under these circumstances, RTR or another rental type thing or just buy something? Any RTR tips?
If it’s a current season dress, I’ll see if I can find it in a local department store. But they’re usually not, so sometimes I rent the dress I’m most interested ahead of time, try it on, and make my decision about whether to go with a different size, a different dress, different accessories, etc. And I usually convince my husband we should go out somewhere nice because I have this dress on anyway, which is fun.
In your shoes, though, I would probably buy something simple that can be dressed up for the true black tie and dressed down for the beach wedding. Afterward you can donate to a charity that collects dresses for low income girls to wear to prom and homecoming.
Could you wear the same dress to both weddings? If so, that is probably the cheaper, easier, and less risky/stress-inducing way to go. I’ve used RTR a few times and had been very happy exactly once. It took ordering lots of options in several sizes, so the cost climbs and climbs. And, turns out, the dress I loved had been altered by someone else…it looked GREAT, but was pure luck that I got one that looked so good.
Other love it, though, so YMMV.
If you are in an area with high-end consignment shops, consider looking for a dress that would work for both weddings. That will get you a dress that you can wear twice for a reasonable amount of money.
I love this idea!
So… next question, any DC natives have recs for likely consignment in the area?
Secondi in DuPont Circle!
The women who work there are amazingly helpful, too. Good luck!
Check out Secondi in Dupont Circle.
I rent from RTR all the time and have never had issues with it – I have a pretty good idea of what will fit me (flat chest and pear shape) and am ruthless about ruling out any option that looks or is described as “straight” or “room for bust.” You get a free backup size in whatever dress you reserve, and the hints about whether to size up or down are usually helpful to me, plus they make a big deal that they will overnight a different dress to you if your order arrives and doesn’t work for whatever reason, although I’ve never tried to use that option. But I really like to wear a different dress for every occasion and don’t get too bothered if something only 95% fits, so I’m kind of the ideal RTR user I think. Not everyone feels the way I do about it!
This. Assuming the wedding is Saturday, you will get the dress and a backup size Thursday, and pop it back in the mail Sunday. They will overnight you a new size if it doesn’t work. My biggest advice is to pay attention to the reviews and try them on immediately once you receive the order (yes, I’ve tried dresses on in the bathroom at work). I’ve rented 20+ dresses over the years and with getting the back-up size, have never needed an overnighted dress. I was in a wedding where we did RTR for all 6 of the bridesmaid dresses, and only one gal needed a new size overnighted – and it worked out just fine, she got her new dress Friday, we were good to go for a Saturday wedding.
I always buy my RTR dresses from Linda’s Stuff on Ebay. They have all of last season’s RTR stuff for less than the rental price. Sometimes there’s something wrong with the dress (that made it “retire” from the RTR lineup) like a snag in the hem or a pull in the skirt, but it’s always in the description and never been a big deal. For example, I bought the Nicholas Plunging Navy Dress for $30 (RTR is $105 cost) and the Monique Lhuiller Spiderweb Dress for $80 (RTR is $90). It’s cheaper and if I rewear it, great. If not, it’s still cheaper. Plus, you can pretty easily find the dress’s reviews, so you can match it to your body type.
I tend to go with stuff I know looks good on me already that doesn’t have an unknown factor- a fit and flare, usually. Nothing form fitting. I wore a RTR to my law school graduation and loved it. Tried another for a wedding and it didn’t work (and timing made it so I couldn’t overnight a new one). So it’s hit or miss.
I moved from NYC to the west coast when I got married 14 years ago. Now that I’m getting divorced I want to move back to NYC – I know people with kids often actively seek to move away from NYC so am I crazy? Most of my(small) family is on the east coast and my sibling is in NYC.
I have an elementary school-aged daughter and my son will be a freshman in high school. I want them to go to public school but I have heard that even public school is a difficult process. I am waiting on an offer for an in-house counsel position, which pays $210,000 with a target 20% bonus. This would be ridiculous money in most places, but not NYC. Is it foolhardy to move to NYC with two kids on this salary?
I’d be working in Wall St, as is my sibling, and we’d probably share a place. I’m not sure if I’d buy something or just rent. I’d hope for 3-4 bedrooms. I have enough down payment for $2M but there’s no way I could afford a mortgage on a place that expensive.
“Is it foolhardy to move to NYC with two kids on this salary?”
Short answer, yes, I think it kind of is. Assuming you could own property elsewhere, renting in NYC is essentially flushing money down the toilet – that $75k or whatever you’re spending annually on rent is evaporating, you’ll never see it again. If you put it into a mortgage, you’d be building equity in an asset you could cash out in retirement (no judgment to renters, I say this as someone who rented for a long time and now really regrets it – my friends who brought property young have so much more equity than I do). In addition, everyone I know who lives in Manhattan sends their kids to private schools, so that is an other huge expense that does not add to your net worth.
I understand wanting to be close to family, but I would probably look at the areas around NYC where you might be able to buy property, not Manhattan itself.
Thanks – I know there are different schools of thought on the rent vs buy argument but after years of home ownership I firmly in the rent camp. The monthly costs associated with buying are higher than renting – saving the difference between all-in costs of buying and the lower costs of renting and investing wisely puts you in a comparable place to equity. Home equity is a sort of forced savings mechanism. And there is quite a bit of money thrown down the toilet owning as well – maintenance fees, property taxes, co-op/condo/HOA fees, broker’s fees when selling, mortgage interest (hopefully not including PMI) – add that in to the (now even more limited) tax advantages to owning and owning isn’t always the right choice financially.
One reason to buy in NYC is partly to ensure you can afford to stay in the same neighborhood when your rent is increased, say, 50% all of a sudden. Because this does happen.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through very well
Rude.
repost tomorrow morning for more traction. there are kids who go to public school in nyc. i can think of some families i know whose kids did public school in nyc and did not attend hunter, stuveysant or the like, but other public schools and now attend good colleges. But in nyc, even for public schools there is an application process and it is not just as simple as attending your neighborhood school. one thing to consider and i am not an expert on this, but would your high schooler be giving up CA residency for college application purposes? i’m guessing your ex does not care if you move your kids out of state? or this is allowed by your custody agreement? think about the stage of life that your sibling is in and how that would work. it’s not unheard of for boy/girl siblings to share bedrooms in nyc, but if your kids don’t share now and you are unable to get a 4 bedroom, that also might be a challenge, unless you plan on sharing a room with your sibling?
Thanks. My sibling would contribute to the rent, rather than keep a separate apartment, so a 4-bedroom in a walk-up/building with fewer amenities would be doable. I am most worried about the high school application process so I would probably hire a school consultant. It seems unlikely that no high school student even moves to NYC after the initial application process so, although not ideal, it should be possible.
I’ve read everything from the median salary being under $100k in NYC to people who barely get by on $400k/yr in NYC so it’s hard to gauge what is accurate.
Most of my friends there have younger children and their financial struggles are related to the high cost of a nanny/day care and/or the desire to send their children to private school, neither of which is an issue for me. This leads me to tentatively believe that we might be ok financially.
After the divorce, is your ex-husband willing to move to NYC? Do your children want to move to NYC? Regardless of a divorce, once you have children with someone, it’s no longer only about you. Your post came off somewhat selfish to me. Only thinking about how you want to be back in NYC rather than mentioning your kid’s preference.
Thanks for offering entirely unsolicited advice due to your assumptions about my ex. My ex was abusive and is not in the picture from a custody standpoint. My children have actually expressed a preference about being closer to my family and are open to moving.
Rather than write a dissertation on the many facets of my issue, I focused on what I was seeking practical advice on – whether or not it is reasonably possible to live in NYC on $250k/yr given that my children would be attending public school.
I see the Good Mothering Police are out in force today!
On that salary, it will probably be very difficult to stay in the city, get a place that large, and have the expenses of a 3 person household. Wall street is very easy to commute to from outside NYC, i would consider different boroughs, new jersey, long island and Westchester. Everyone I know (no exaggeration) that has kids that age live outside of the city and make the commute in, which can be an hour+… keep in mind this is considered pretty normal.
I don’t think it is nuts but I’m not sure your expectations are in line with reality. Our HHI is approx 170K, and we have 1 child in elementary school and plan on staying. My husband is a public high school teacher; I work in the arts, so we don’t have crazy hours. To afford NYC, we live fairly far out in Brooklyn; my commute to Times Sq. takes almost an hour, but it would be more like 40 min to Wall Street. We live in a 2 bedroom coop apartment with an office that we bought and renovated with A LOT of DIY work. It overlooks a very busy intersection and does not have any outdoor space, no doorman, no gym, etc. We do not have any kind of household help (no cleaning person, etc.). We have an old car that we park on the street. You will have trouble finding a 4 bedroom apartment – even 3 bedrooms are somewhat rare, especially at lower price points. You should assume you will live either in far northern Manhattan or fairly far out in the boroughs. (Staten Island is very affordable and convenient to Wall Street). As to the school issue…there are definitely good public schools, but getting a spot can be dicey. My husband’s opinion is that the NYC public schools tend to do well for high achievers and kids with disabilities, but can be rough for kids in the middle of the pack. Since your daughter is in elementary school, you will need to pay attention to WHERE you live – there is a certain amount of school choice, particularly in middle school and high school, but geography plays a big role in determining your elementary school and your middle school. If you are considering Brooklyn look at Joyce Szuflita’s website and consider hiring her for some advice. Good luck!
Thanks!
I have been wandering through streeteasy and it seems that renting a 3-bedroom in Battery Park/downtown for around $5,000 is fairly possible. The schools there are reported to be in District 2, which is seen to be a good district. Brooklyn seems like a good option as well.
Thanks for the recommendation for Joyce Szufita.
If $5K a month is doable for you, that is great! As you indicated above, people with a very wide range of incomes make NYC work financially, so it all comes down to what you consider essential. There are certainly trade-offs to living here.
Our friends just left a 2br apt in that area (they moved in last year) for 5k/mo. They made about $350k combined w/ no kids and found it financially stressful with law school debt so ended up moving upstate. I think it would be hard in any city- but 2mil in savings would definite help float you for a few years until your kids are in college if you want to take the long game.
By that area I meant Brooklyn. Also plus 1 on nj, we have friends that live off the path in a lovely house, walkable to 2 downtown areas that they paid <1 mil for (they work on walstreer too).
Look at the Bay Ridge neighborhood in Brooklyn. Family friendly, good schools, decent value for the money. The commute to wall street is around 45 minutes to an hour though – don’t tell brokers tell you otherwise. It’s still a much better commute than NJ or Westchester etc. I think your HS kid would be able to go to Ft Hamilton HS (zoned for the neighborhood), which is a really good school, and has an honors program if your kid qualifies. Elementary schools are all excellent as well, especially PS 185 and 104. You just go to the one you are zoned for, unless you want to get crazy about it. You could rent a 3-4 bedroom apartment, probably in a private house, on your budget, and then eventually possibly buy a house (standard 3 bedroom house is 1.4 – 1.6 mil). Check out street easy dot com for apartment options.
Keep in mind that your kids will have a very different experience growing up in NYC than elsewhere. I grew up here and am raising my kids here, and I love all of it, but it’s worlds away from how friends from the suburbs grew up.
Thanks – this is very helpful!
Would you consider working near, but not in, NYC? Princeton, NJ is a lovely town with an enormous biotech presence, which would lend itself well to in-house opportunities. Other suburbs would also have legal roles that would pay about the same amount of money, with a much lower cost of living.
Make sure you’ve run the numbers on what your take-home pay will be. If you live in NYC, you pay city income taxes on top of state and federal. My ex-husband and I were not expecting that, and I think we paid about $7-8,000 in city income tax on a similar income to yours (no idea what the rest of your tax situation looks like, though).