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Some of our latest threadjacks include:
- What to say to friends and family who threaten to not vote?
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- Tell me about your favorite adventure travels…
NYtoCO- favorite calendar app?
I keep being too late so posting one more time…
Do you use a calendar app other than google or the one native to your phone? My favorite app (Sunrise) is shutting down and I am looking for another one. Most important things are looks and functionality (very easy to add events and would love to be able to copy/paste events rather than only being able to have them repeat).
I was using fantastical a few years ago and don’t remember completely loving it, but maybe that’s because it was the free version.
Catlady
Have you tried Clear? It’s very easy and really simple.
lifer
I can’t find this at the Google play store. Could it have another name?
Thanks
Catlady
It could be apple only…
Bri
I really like Week Cal, simple and very functional.
Leigh
This is the one I just purchased and I like it. I am on iPhone though. I was previously using Sunset – I will miss it!
Anon
I love this top! And I’m a proud watermelon girl. Good call, Kat!
Leaving Big Job for way less prestigious gig?
Sorry in advance for the novel!
I worked in Big Law in a niche area of litigation for about 5 years and really liked the actual work I was doing, but the long and unpredictable hours got very exhausting, and it wasn’t something I could see ever combining with a family (which I very much want someday). So I wasn’t devastated when I left that job to follow my husband to a fairly small town. I’m at a small firm here with a general practice that includes some litigation, but not my former niche. This job has been, in short, an absolutely terrible experience. I feel totally unqualified to be working in some of the areas of law I’m now practicing and there is no training at all and minimal oversight. The work I’ve received in the areas I’m actually familiar with has mostly been paralegal-level (cite-checking, proofreading, etc.), while I’m asked to do things that are way over my head in other areas. Some of the older partners are openly racist and sexist and although my supervising partner is not a bad person he and I just don’t “click” at all and don’t communicate well with each other. There is a heavy emphasis on face-time and no ability to work from home. My job makes me miserable and it is spilling over and affecting every area of my life, including my relationships and physical health. I’m also not coming close to meeting my hours requirement so I’m going to be leaving this job eventually, either voluntarily or involuntarily.
An opportunity has come up for me to work in communications at an established company with a good reputation. The job would involve a lot of writing, which I enjoy, but from talking to people who work there, it sounds like it is not the most interesting or intellectually challenging job. However, there are many perks, including the fact that it’s very low stress, pretty much 40 hours/week, my potential boss and co-workers all seem really nice and easy to get along with, and there is a lot of flexibility to telecommute or work odd hours. Unsurprisingly, the salary is much less than I make now (which is already quite low as far as lawyer salaries go). Financially this is not really an issue – we have no debt except a small mortgage, live in a LCOL area and have modest tastes – but I realize taking a pay cut can sometimes be demoralizing.
My husband, parents and other close friends and family members think I’m insane to consider leaving a prestigious career for a low-paying, not especially intellectually challenging job. They understand that my current job is not good, but insist I can’t give up on law as a career and that I should try to get a job as a lawyer at a bigger firm in the city an hour away. I really don’t see this as being an attractive option. Commuting 2+ hours a day is a lot, especially if it’s to do a job you don’t absolutely love. (Because I know people will ask – moving closer to the city so my husband and I could split the commute is not an option, because there’s really nothing, and certainly no decent schools, in between here and there). And even in the city, there’s no work in my former niche, which is the only area of law that really interests me. Quite honestly, at this point in my life, a fairly boring, easy, 40-hour a week job two miles from my house with a nice boss sounds like a dream come true.
My husband thinks I’m having some kind of nervous breakdown and is about ready to have me checked into a mental institution. Basically everyone I’ve talked to about this has told me I’m crazy to “throw away a decade of hard work.” My dad keeps harping about how I’d be leaving a “career” for something that is “just a job.” But I think burnout in high-pressure jobs is fairly normal and there’s nothing wrong with being someone who works a boring, low-stress job to pay the bills and finds fulfillment and intellectual challenge in other areas of life.
Any advice from the wise hive? Obviously I’m the one who will ultimately make this decision, but the fact that SO many people in my life seem to think it’s a terrible idea is making me worried I’d be making a horrible mistake if I took this job. I feel like if it weren’t for all the negative feedback, I would really want to take it though.
bridget
You do you.
You are married, so you have to factor your husband into the “you” part, but this works for your family. Have at it.
Take the comminications gig. To yourself, talk up the normalcy, hours, and flexibility. To others, talk about planning for a career and kids, and the opportunities to move up in this career vs law.
Outsiders think that lawyering is high-paying and fun. That is where they are coming from. You’re miserable and realistically cannot advance at your current job. So move jobs.
AKB
TAKE THE JOB. You are not leaving interesting/good work. You are unhappy. You can afford the pay cut. Go forth, take an easier job, focus on your mental and physical health and happiness. And I am big believer that you can score good work, if you try. So after some time in your new job, scope out the situation and see where you could add value without ruffling feathers. There are opportunities to turn a boring job into an interesting job. Or at least learn some valuable skills that translate into a more interesting job elsewhere.
Leaving Big Job for way less prestigious gig?
Thanks AKB. That was sort of my gut feeling too and the potential boss even mentioned in the interview that there would be opportunities beyond what is listed in the job description for a smart go-getter. It was the people who would be at my level who hinted the job was boring, but some of them have been there 10+ years, which is a long time to be in any role.
TK
Ultimately of course, its your life – do what you want. But you’re not in a great frame of mind right now to decide on a major career change. As I read you comments, you don’t hate law – you hate your job. As you should – it sounds terrible. I wouldn’t quit law just because you hate your current job. What about working in the area you love on a contract / solo basis? You say you really enjoyed the work itself. And / or, if you did get a job in the city an hour away, you might be able to take advantage of the work from home / flexible hours that can sometimes be available at larger employers?
anon
I agree. There is nothing at all wrong with taking a lower stress, lower pay, lower prestige job if that is the best fit for you and your health and your family. But I would also hesitate to toss the whole law career just because of this bad firm when you are (understandably) under such duress. My hunch is that that’s what people are worried about- not the low pay/prestige, but the whole career change. Whether or not this is true, most people probably perceive that as closing too many doors to be worth the trade off. But hey, maybe you want to go through the non-law doors!
Leaving Big Job for way less prestigious gig?
Yeah I think you hit the nail on the head that their concerns are not really about the pay/prestige but about closing the doors on a career I worked for for a long time. But I don’t really see how I can be a happy lawyer here and moving (which involves husband finding a new job, selling a house, leaving a community we love) so I can pursue a career that – even when I was happiest in – I never LOVED or saw myself doing for the rest of my life, seems really drastic. Even if I could wave a magic wand and rejoin my Big Law firm today, I’d pretty much immediately be looking for exit options because I don’t want to have a baby while working 75 hours a week.
Anonymous
Is it really “closing the doors?” on your entire legal career to leave law for this communications job? I’m not in law, so that’s not totally a rhetorical question, but it seems to me that this is only a permanent change if you make it one. There’s nothing to say you can’t go back to law in some capacity after a detour through communications. You’ll hone different skills, you’ll learn a different industry, you’ll broaden your professional network. All of those can translate back into law down the line if the right opportunity comes up.
TBK
It actually really could be closing the door on law. The legal market is very competitive and jobs in firms tend to be very linear so it can be hard to get back in after a detour. Even getting into say an in-house or government job can be tricky if the lawyer doesn’t have a typically linear career.
That said, leaving law doesn’t mean leaving intellectually challenging work forever. I’d seriously consider taking the communications job and being extremely open to other opportunities as they come along. You might be surprised by what comes down the pike and what doors open with new skills even if the law door has closed.
SH
I think law is one of the toughest professions to get back into if you take a job in an unrelated career. Lawyers feel – rightly or wrongly – that law requires a very specific skill set and you don’t hone that skill set doing anything except practicing law. Even a long stretch of unemployment can be brutal; it’s notoriously hard for SAHMs to resume careers as lawyers. As long as the OP keeps an active law license, she could open a solo practice and she might be able to get contract work or work in a quasi-legal (JD preferred) role after taking a detour through another career. But getting a traditional lawyer job at a firm or as an in-house counsel is very hard once you’ve taken a non-law job.
MU JD
Eh, I’ve stepped in and out and back into law in a LCOL midwest area. It really depends on how well you sell your skills, staying in tune with the market and your network. My opinion is you do you. If you are miserable, there are no other interesting opportunities available in law in your area currently, and this communications job sounds like it could be fulfilling, at least in the short term, then take it. Stay on top of your CLEs, maintain your contacts in your legal network and be happy. Good Luck!
Katie
I agree with TK – why not explore what’s in the city an hour away a bit more? Even if there aren’t great schools in between that city and your current place, you don’t have kids yet, and they wouldn’t be in school for a few years anyhow. I wouldn’t lean out just yet.
Anonymous
Having practiced in a large law firm while commuting an hour each way pre-kids, while pregnant, and with a baby, I have to disagree with the suggestion to look for jobs in the city an hour away. That stretch of my career was by far the hardest, due to the commute, which resulted in me having no time for myself, my marriage, my family or my friends.
Anonymous
Seconding this. Why does it have to be an hour commute? You and your husband could live halfway between your current town and this city and you could commute a half hour each way, which is manageable. I get that you would have to move, but he wouldn’t need to find a new job or relocate halfway across the country and it would open up significant options for you.
Anonymous
She already clearly said there is nothing between the current town and the city, so this isn’t feasible.
Anon for this
+1.
FWIW, when I changed jobs from biglaw to an area of law that I’d been hoping to get into for years (and my job is still considered “prestigious” by many measures), I was surprised by how much I cared about a “downgrade” in prestige. A good part of that is vanity, but part of it is also a concern about whether future employers will consider this job less valuable as part of my resume or whether the potential career paths from this job are less interesting.
So do really think about whether this job is something that you want to do now and where you see yourself in 30+ years. Are you ready to leave law entirely?
Idea
OMG 30+ years. Start with 5 or 10. Who knows if humanity will even exist in 30+ years. I mean, still save for retirement and stuff. But really. A 30 year plan for an individual???? I cannot even imagine this, as a 37 year old that has taken numerous different career steps on a “path” in the past 10-15 years.
Anon for this
In my mind a change in fields like this – especially one where it would be difficult to get back into the legal field – warrants an evaluation of what a long-term career path might look like. I worked in a different area prior to law school and couldn’t imagine doing that when I was 55 and didn’t see how what I was doing would lead to anything that I’d want to be doing at that point in my life. I thought about what I’d want to be doing or have accomplished, and I chose to go to law school. I don’t think you need a step-by-step outline of where you’re going to be in 30 years (I don’t know what I’m going to be doing at 60+), but I think the OP should consider if she has long-term career goals beyond just hating her current job/situation.
Bewitched
I agree with TK. I wouldn’t take the job. Believe me (I have experience), it doesn’t take 10 years to feel unfulfilled in a job which doesn’t utilize your skills and intellect. It’s always a huge red flag for me when the current staff are not interested and engaged. You do need to find something which works better for you asap, but I don’t think this is it. You’d be better off with a period of unemployment than trying to explain why you left your professional career for an unrelated job.
Anonymous
As someone who works in communications, much of this field does not pay well. Not sure what kind of communications you’re looking at, but I’m thinking about getting *out* of this work to have a child. My husband is well paid, but if something happened to him or his job, I would not be able to support us on my salary. We save and we’re planning to buy life insurance very soon, but I’m also looking at acquiring skills that would make me marketable for job that would hopefully pay about 50% more.
If you want to get out of the firm culture, I’m sure there are still places where you can be paid a premium for your law background without actually having to practice.
Leaving Big Job for way less prestigious gig?
I know what the salary is and I could support myself and a child, even if I had to pay daycare bills. We certainly wouldn’t live the lifestyle I live now with my husband but we would be able to stay in our home and have food on the table. We also have lots of life insurance on my husband and would get even more if I took this paycut.
Killer Kitten Heels
As someone who can only dream of getting myself to the financial place you’re describing so that I can make exactly the kind of switch you’re thinking about, let me just say DO IT.
I know we’re all supposed to be all “yay career” all the time around here, but honestly, life is too short to be miserable for 60 hours a week. You’re a whole person, not just a lawyer, and you shouldn’t have to be so unhappy at work (or commuting a million hours a day to the nearest city for slightly less terrible work) just to keep the mantle of “attorney.” At the end of the day, your quality of life is more important than the quality of your job title.
jen
Too add to this, I recently took an unplanned life detour- a total shocker of a layoff. In parallel, my husband got a totally unplanned promotion- more hours, more work, but 40-60k more/year.
His promotion wasn’t enough to cover my lost salary, but was enough for us to really consider what would be best for our family (two young kids). I leaned, not sure it was out, but was definitely in a different direction. I had interviewed for 3 jobs that were equal or better in prestige/pay than the one I had just been laid off from, and realized that any of those jobs + my husband’s new role would just be crazy for our family. It would mean both parents out of the house for 60 hours/week, and a good 10+ additional hours with one (exhausted) parent at home.
I put out feelers and started to do some consulting. Over the past 6-8 months, I’ve built up a practice and found a partner (in the loosest sense, we may formalize a partnership next year but have been doing a lot of joint work and referrals) that makes 50-60% of my former salary, after factoring in self employment taxes. I work 15-20 hours/week. That income, plus the increase in DH’s income, minus some of our former childcare expenses (45 hours/week for 2 in daycare–> 15 hours/week of childcare is a savings of over $2k/month) really made the decision easy for us.
if you asked me 5 years ago the chance that I’d be a semi SAHM with a consulting practice, I’d laugh in your face and tell you I’d be a VP at a corporation. Been there, done that, this is better.
Current Clerk
+100 doing this now after relocating from biglaw to a small town. Often times these positions go unadvertised, so if you are interested in this route, contact the individual judges’ chambers.
Current Clerk
this was meant as a reply to Former Clerk. RIP edit feature
Former Clerk
What do you enjoy about the practice of law? Anything? Do you need some time to figure that out?
Earlier in my career, I got to a place where I was absolutely miserable in my law job. This may sound a bit off or a suggestion where you are not looking for one: I clerked. I took a few years and clerked and got back to the roots of litigation, which I really enjoyed. My job was 8-5, intellectually challenging and I was around other lawyers who really like their jobs. It gave me the time I needed to see that it wasn’t all law that I hated, just my former job. It was a breather from practice and a way to take a step back without stepping out. Are there any courthouses in your small town? Maybe look into when they hire clerks?
Anon
It sounds like you’re thinking about this as A (current job) vs. B (communications job). I totally get that, and I did the same thing when debating whether to shift out of practicing law after a long time. It also sounds like you’re leaning strongly toward leaving the current job. So, another way to think of this is the communications job vs. all of the other jobs/careers you might do. Is the communications job the right one to jump for, or is there another one to work toward? Shifting my thinking to that framework was really helpful for me. Good luck!
FP
You do not have to be a lawyer.
Do not listen to your family, they cannot possibly understand. My parents’ whole frame of reference is the idea that one begins a job after school and stays until retirement, and anything else is disloyal and flaky. They have given me lots of unsolicited career advice and it has all been terrible. Your husband’s opinion matters, but at the end of the day, this is about YOU. Especially if you want to have kids, the shift to a 9-5 with a lot less stress sounds fantastic. Will you be able to go back to a firm? Very doubtful. Will you suddenly lose your law license? No. A combined law/communications background may position you later for amazing and cool opportunities like lobbying or policy work.
I just left a similar firm for a less prestigious title and track, against all advice from my husband and family, and it’s the best decision I ever made. (My husband and family now agree on that front).
HATERS GONNA HATE. IGNORE THEM.
CountC
As someone who practiced for 6 years, took time off to do all sorts of random things, and then took a non-attorney job that I enjoy more than any of my attorney or random jobs, SO MUCH THIS.
Anonymous
You don’t have to view this as a binary choice. It sounds like you have a couple of pieces of useful information here: 1) you hate your current job for a variety of reasons; 2) you know generally what kind of working environment you’d prefer to target in terms of hours, culture, flexibility, etc.; 3) you know generally what to expect from either your current law job or the communications job.
The communications job doesn’t sound like a slam dunk, though–mainly the part about it not being that challenging or engaging. If you already know that going in, it likely will be even more boring once you get there and get the hang of things. So why not think about a third option? This could be practicing law in some other position that would be more rewarding and enjoyable, or it could indeed be making a career switch of some kind, whether legal-adjacent or not related to law at all. Why not take some time to explore what non-law options may be possible in your area?
I just went through a big career change myself and had a lot of angst about it–the biggest trap I fell into was feeling like I ONLY had Option A or Option B, neither of which I was that excited about. Taking a breath and looking for Option C turned out to be by far the better decision.
Senior Attorney
I think this is excellent advice. I completely agree that you don’t have to be a lawyer and you shouldn’t worry about your family’s hissy fit. But definitely take some time to explore all your options.
I ended up going from a firm to a much less prestigious, lower-paying government job and it was the very best thing I could have done. And then, much to my surprise, after five years it turned out to be a springboard for a whole new opportunity that I would never even have though of when I was in private practice. The thing I learned from that experience is that careers are long and they have many chapters — although I do agree that leaving law altogether is likely to be a permanent move.
Tired of Thread Jackers
This is a post about clothing, perhaps you should wait for the weekend open thread and post there?
Anonymous
lolwut
Anonymous
That is the whole point of the website. Don’t like them, skip it
Edna Mazur
Anyone know what four year old girls are into these days? Party is tomorrow so needs to be at brick and mortar (target, toys r us). I don’t really know what she is particularly into…
greenie
My 4 year old loves Shopkins and My Little Pony which you can find at any toy store department store. She’d also love to get a Target or Toys R Us gift card and pick something out herself. Books and kids crafts are always appreciated as well.
greenie
Oh yes- Paw Patrol is huge as well. She also got her first Our Generation Doll (Target knock off of American Girl) when she turned 4 and loves dressing alike.
JJ
Paw Patrol is a huge, gender-neutral, hit at all the 4-year old parties I’ve been to this year. I give the toy figurines. You also can’t go wrong with toys from any of the Pixar movies. My 4-year old also loves puzzles. He’s pretty good at the 48-piece versions that have their own wooden frame.
ANP
+1 for Shopkins and Paw Patrol at our house. Also, ’tis the season for outdoor stuff: chalk, bubbles, light-up hula hoop. I also love the Stomp Rocket as a hit for all ages!
Anonymous
If you don’t know her thing, get outdoor toys! It’s the perfect time of year. Also, kids go nuts for bubbles and stickers.
Shopping
It’s much easier to avoid the gender police with outdoor stuff:
Scooters! A hammock! Squirt guns!
You could also go with classic board games like Sorry! or Chutes & Ladders.
Anon in NYC
My friend’s kid is into Doc McStuffins.
Edna Mazur
These are great. I’d never heard of Shopkins and Paw Patrol. Books and outdoor toys are a great idea as well. Thanks all!
Katie
How about coloring books? I think there have to be some gender-neutral coloring books or “workbooks” out there. They’re affordable and keep a kid busy for ages!
Mom of 4 year old
That’s my go-to, plus a nice colored pencil set.
Anonymous
Thank you for all the Paw Patrol mentions, now I have that stupid song in my head.
Anonymous
Paw Patrol, Paw Patrol, we’ll be there on the double!
I have this song in my head almost every morning, thanks to my son, who sings it or quotes the catch phrases the whole way to daycare. I’m fired up!!
Also in Academia
My son solemnly took out the recycling the other day saying “Don’t lose it, reuse it!”
X
I don’t even have kids, but I know the names of all the Paw Patrol characters because of my 4-year-old nephew!
Babyweight
Pup-pup boogie!
H
What about a gift certificate to do something fun? Waterpark, children’s museum, zoo, trampoline place? As a parent (of a younger child), I would not want a ton of toys coming into my home…
JJ
Conversely, I would feign a life-threatening disease before I tried to take my children to a water park in the summer. But the idea itself is great.
In House Counsel
We love anything Frozen or Peppa Pig related and the Play-doh kits and Melissa and Doug painting/bead making stuff.
Killer Kitten Heels
My go-to is always those big sets of age-appropriate Legos. I have not encountered a kid yet who hasn’t liked messing around with them.
EB0220
My four year old likes Paw Patrol and Frozen (still). She also really liked the aquadoodle and jewelry-making kit she got for her birthday in Feb.
Tired of Thread Jackers
This is a post on a particular top. Maybe you should post this in the weekend open thread?
Girl in the stix
Are you new here? Thread jacks are the norm! Welcome
Tired of Thread Jackers
No I’m not new here. I’ve been reading on and off for three years or so. I just think thread jacking is rude…
Anne Elliott
Mine loves Peppa Pig, playdoh, books and is just into simple board games like Snakes and Ladders.
Anon
Where is option number three? Is there another law office remotely close where you can work? Can you ask for work more geared to your experience? Could you set up as a sole practitioner? Legal research for Westlaw?? It’s not this one job or misery.
Anon
This was meant to be a reply to “Leaving Big Job”
Leaving Big Job for way less prestigious gig?
I’m not seeing an Option 3 although maybe I’m giving up too easily.
I’ve asked for more work in areas I like and have been told everyone does everything because of the size of the firm.
Other firms in my area are even smaller, mostly solo or quasi-solo shops. The “good ole boy” culture I dislike here is also prevelant at those other places, from what I’ve seen at bar association meetings. I also don’t know of any job openings at any other firms in the area.
I’ve applied to some legal research and writing gigs, but those are few and far between, especially the ones that let you work remotely, and very hard to get. I’ve been casually looking for probably six months or so.
I would rather do just about anything than open a solo practice (seriously – I’d rather work at Starbucks). Props to those who can do it, but it terrifies me and business development was never my forte even when I was a relatively happy lawyer. Given that I was happiest in the big firm environment with lots of training and supervision, it seems like a recipe for complete disaster.
I think the best Option 3 is what TK mentioned – trying to get a job at a big firm in the city and hoping that eventually they will let me do a fair amount of telecommuting. It’s easier said than done though. I had a recruiter send my resume around and got no bites.
Anonymous
Hells no! An hour commute with a baby or lot of OB appointments will be awful. And forget about “maybe I can telecommute” — that is something you could maybe do now (but it hasn’t worked out).
If you feel professionally unengaged, get on the board of something or volunteer in government — school boards, nonprofit boards, legal services boards, etc. You will absolutely use your training (and likely after work hours).
Getting back into law will be an option, but leaves your life able to unfold before you.
Your job isn’t supposed to give you satisfaction. It is supposed to give you a paycheck. It is great if it doesn’t make you miserable, but don’t look for rainbows and unicorns. Law is a very jealous mistress. You CAN get out and for your mental health you SHOULD get out –> so GTFO of law!
In a small town, there are backsies.
Blonde Lawyer
“In a small town there are backsies.” THIS. Small town/small firm law does not follow ANY of the other law norms. Those other firms aren’t going to advertise their positions. They are just going to offer jobs to people they know are looking. If you read AAM you know all the old advice from parents they mock on there since it isn’t relevant anymore? It is relevant in small town/small law. You might actually get an interview writing to small firms and explaining what you want to do and why you would be an asset to their firm. Small firms LOVE having former big law on their advertising. They want to look like a boutique and differentiate themselves from other small firms. They want their clients to say they are getting big law at small law prices. Small law also hires people who want to be part time or telecommute or people getting back in the field after years.
You may be closing a door to big law but you are not closing the door to all law.
Cb
I’m puppysitting today and recommend it if you are on the fence about getting a puppy. I have gotten no work done! She’s an adorable bundle of fluff (doodle) but it has definitely helped quell my desire for a dog. Now I just need to borrow a small baby to kill my baby cravings.
lsw
Not to be the person who gets on my soapbox but let me get on my soapbox – adopting a senior dog is an awesome puppy alternative for working people! I got my baby when she was 8 and she just turned 15. When I lived alone, working full-time, it was very doable. Plus, senior dogs don’t get adopted as quickly so you’re doing the pup and the shelter a favor. *climbs down from soapbox*
Cb
Yes, definitely! I’ve sat for older dogs and found them much easier (they can tell me when they want to go out, they can go for walks on a lead). If we had a house with a proper garden, I’d adopt an older dog and make their life amazing!
lsw
I hope you get to do it someday! And in the meantime that you can enjoy lots of pet-sitting. :)
Anonymous
+1 million to adult dogs! Adopting my 5-year-old chihuahua mix was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
Anonymous
You don’t even need a senior dog necessarily if you’re concerned about short lifespans – my parents adopted their dog at 4 years old and she’s been perfect. Already housetrained, good on a leash, all that jazz. And they’ll probably have at least 8 years with her, knock on wood.
Killer Kitten Heels
+1 – we adopted a five year old dog back in December, and he’s been an absolutely awesome addition to our lives. He’s a toy breed, so we figure if we’re lucky we’re looking at 8-10 years or more with him. My sibling adopted a puppy at the same adoption event, and all I can say is, I’m so, so glad we did not give in to the puppy temptation – the puppy is lovely, but she is also chaos personified. Our dog is a dignified little gentleman in comparison (although, of course, he’s still a dog).
CountC
+1m Although my 12 yr old Yorkie/Chi mix is a BALL of energy. I have had him for about a month and a half and I missed him like crazy this week while I was traveling. I love my cats too, but having a dog is so much more involved, in a good way.
He’s my little nugget and I take him everywhere that I can.
Anonymous
Yes! Love my 6-year-old lab that I adopted 3 years ago. She was house trained and has never had chewing or major behavior problems. You know what you’re getting with an adult dog. Puppies are so adorable and fun to hang out with, but take soooo much time.
New Tampanian
Re: baby craving… just go sit in Baby’s R Us or Target mid-day on a Saturday. Plenty of screaming kids to get it out of your system. Or have friends, like mine, with minis that are insane and try to spend a “quiet” day with them. haha.
Cb
That sounds like a good idea. You don’t really notice baby bumps / new babies until you’re trying to have one of your own. There are babies everywhere! There was a baby in my husband’s office today and he sent a text saying ‘can we make one of these?’ with a photo.
Anon
Or IKEA. Go to IKEA on a Saturday. Baby-proofing at its best.
Shopping
No babies here, but I’d be happy to lend you a young teenager. Catch him in the right mood & he’s sure to do the trick!
world's biggest idiot
advice needed – Biggest idiot in the world. Started new job about a year ago. Have written offer letter with salary of $xx9,345. Didn’t get a raise this year, boss reiterated $xx9,345 salary during review. HR manager was let go last year. Boss and I have had friction – i make a lot of money for them but made an embarrassing error recently – very high profile. Had to complete some paperwork this week and looked at my paystub and found that I’m being paid $9,000/yr less than the accepted salary, so $xx0,345 – must have been an entry error. I filed tax extension so I didn’t notice and must not have closely checked my paystubs. I really need the $750/mo that I’m missing. So boss thinks I’m being paid at the higher rate but they haven’t been paying that. Help?!?! I’m an idiot I know. There’s an assistant controller who handles payroll and I’m going to talk to her. I’m afraid my boss will say ‘she’s not worth the extra $9,000’ and ‘boy what an idiot she didn’t know for a year that she was being paid less.’ I don’t even expect to get the $9,000 that I should have received just wan the higher rate going forward. Not sure why I’m positing – moral support maybe. Ideas on how to fix this?
anon
Payroll errors happen. How you fix this is by going to the assistant controller and pointing out the error. Ask to be brought current and to have it fixed going forward. Don’t let the other stuff cloud what is a simple business transaction.
Anon in NYC
100% agree.
Meg Murry
Honestly, your boss probably won’t even have to be involved – unless he was the one that gave them the incorrect number. Take your offer letter and paystubs to payroll and ask them to fix it. Start with getting it fixed going forward, then ask who needs to be involved in order to get you caught up on the back pay. Getting retroactive pay from the previous fiscal year might be difficult, but shouldn’t be impossible.
And to give yourself courage – take a deep breath and pretend like you are generic, entitled everyman addressing this. Just go and say “there must have been a clerical error somewhere along the way, my paystubs say $X which is $$$ a year, but my offer letter said $Y a year, which is $$$ per pay period.” Then stop talking and see what the assistant controller says.
lsw
Agree with this and emphasize the “stop talking” part – no need to go into how you didn’t notice it until now or any of that stuff. It’s an error made by someone who is not you and you are taking the appropriate steps to fix it.
Amy H.
+1
Anonymous
I think it’s not that weird. Certainly most people would notice $750 coming out of their bank account each month, but that’s not what’s happened here. You didn’t necessarily know exactly what your after tax pay was supposed to be. I have some vague ballpark sense of what a takehome paycheck should look like for a particular salary, but I doubt I could tell you within $750. You trusted the company to get it right (which is normal). They didn’t. They need to fix the mistake. You’re overthinking this.
Shopping
It’s an account error, a typo, a mistake in the records. No need to make it sound like renegotiating your salary, or to take that bait if boss dangles it at you. “Here’s what it should be (copy of letter) and here’s what’s been transferred (pay stub)”. Very clear and authoritatively. And no apologies or sob stories–they should’ve noticed that their books weren’t balancing, just like you.
Baconpancakes
I’ve been getting a weird number of anti-attorney comments randomly coming up in conversation. While I’m not one, many of my close friends are attorneys, and I’m not sure how to respond. These are people whom I otherwise generally respect, who are generally educated, if blue-collar in profession, so suddenly spewing such vitriol for an entire profession shocks me. Any snappy or educational rejoinders you can recommend?
Analyst
Not an attorney but I often say “everyone hates attorneys…until they really need one.”
anon
^^This is what I use. I am a lawyer, and it irritates me to hear stuff like that…. especially because in my experience the attorneys I work with exhibit a high degree of integrity and respect for their clients and the law.
I think it’s just such a culturally accepted trope that it’s just a go-to when people are running their mouths. Unless they have actually had a bad experience with an attorney that they’re talking about, which most haven’t (getting billed for the time your attorney spent on your case doesn’t count).
lawsuited
The trouble is, I think people hate attorneys even more once they are having to pay one!
anyanon
I am not an attorney (though I may play one on TV) but I work with them all the time. The one time that I hired one for a non-routine matter, he saved me $150,000 and the hassle of going to court and defending myself and potentially losing and having the matter follow me around for my professional career. And because my firm had used him for prior expensive matters, he gave me a break on the fee plus I only needed verbal advice so I was just charged for $600. Best $600 I ever spent.
ANP
No advice, only sympathy. My FIL and BIL are both attorneys — and great ones! So I hate when that happens too.
Anonymous
I’m a lawyer and I get this all the time, including from very educated people. It’s one of the things I hate the most about being a lawyer.
Ellen
Yay! Fruegel Friday’s! I love Fruegel Friday’s and this $45 top from Nordstrom’s! I think Rosa would look better in this b/c I could not show up to work with this one b/c of Frank. FOOEY! Kat and Kate are doeing such a GREAT job with these choices that the manageing partner is beginning to become unhappy that I have an unlimited clotheing allowance, ALBEEIT @ 50% that I have to pay for.
As for the OP, yes, I also get this coment all the time. It is NOT directed at ME, but at the “hypethetical legal person” who they are basheing. It is very styleish to say lawyers are vulture’s or whatever, but boy when they need one, they are ALWAYS comeing to me for FREE legeal and tax advice, and I am usueally abel to help them, once I talk to my dad (who, btw, is NOT even a lawyer!!!!)
So for the LEGAL peeople in the HIVE, just grin and bare it, b/c this is the price we must pay for being sucessful. If we just pushed paper’s around all day, we would NOT have the prestige of being a counselor at law, and this is the bagage that comes with it. Happy weekend to the ENTIRE HIVE! YAY!!!
TO Lawyer
+1
the worst is getting it on dates… yes please insult me and my profession. That will certainly work in your favour
*eyeroll*
Badlands
Oooo….I had a friend (lawyer) who went on a first date with a guy that allowed he was smarter enough to be a lawyer, but was too moral to do so.
And then asked her name again at the end of the date because he had forgotten it with all his pontificating.
January
Well, in that case, he isn’t detail-oriented enough to be a lawyer!
;)
jen
As a non-attorney, I really just don’t even get the anti-attorney sentiment. Is it because the billable hour rate charged to “consumers” (lay people) is so high? Is it just a dislike of finding loopholes in laws for perceived self-profited (the “let’s sue” mentality?)
Admittedly, I’ve only hired lawyers personally a few times (real estate transactions, complex wills/estate planning and when let go from a company) and while the hourly rate was high, it wasn’t much higher than my own billable rate for professional services and each time they proved to be a smart investment (eg. my $450/hr employment lawyer got me $45k in additional severance and it cost me <$2500).
I've had lawyers report into me in the past, though they were not functioning as corporate lawyers at the time (more like compliance watchdogs) and have a ton of lawyer friends in all kinds of practices. Maybe I just like y'all as people? :) :)
JJ
As an attorney, I think it’s a general dislike of frivolous litigation, which people then equate to all lawyers = bad. People always complain about the hot McDonald’s coffee case as the beacon for ridiculous lawsuits (but the actual facts of that case are really crazy). They also complain about ridiculous paperwork and releases that they have to sign, for example, to go horseback riding/go-karting/trampoline park/etc.
When people tell me that they hate lawyers (gosh, thanks…) I say roughly the same thing as Analyst: People hate every lawyer except their lawyer.
Kitty
As someone who recently got severe 2nd and 3rd degree burns after coffee was spilled on my legs at an event, I have a whole new appreciate of the McDonald’s coffee case. That famous case was just awful, particularly given where the burns occurred. I have large permanent visible scars on my legs, and I can only imagine what the McDonald’s burn victim has to deal with.
Most people just make assumptions without facts. It’s actually a huge problem with our society in general, and has led to a general lack of empathy.
recommendations?
+1. The McDonald’s case sounds silly- “well of course coffee is hot, shouldn’t she know that?” But the little not always obvious details make all the difference. And you can oversimplify anything to the point of absurdity.
lifer
I think the billing rate just really puts average people off. And many people who should hire lawyers don’t do it because of the rates, when in fact it would be a financial advantage for them to do so. Lawyers also are quite hesitant to give casual advice to friends/family (which of course, is appropriate to be wary of) while many other professionals do … which also causes average people to assume that lawyers are being greedy. I also think there are silly stereotypes that average folks who don’t use lawyers assume to be true.
So a lot of the apparent dislike is due to misunderstanding, I feel.
Some professionals are jealous, maybe? There are other professions that work very long hours with high stress and don’t make lawyer type of $$ (or what they assume lawyers make).
I work in a profession that is very socially acceptable, but makes people a little… uncomfortable… and in social situations often leads to the end of conversations or downer talk. So some days I fantasize about making up exciting careers and just telling people that’s what I do.
Anonymous
Dying to know what profession this is. Mortician? Gyno? Politician?
Anonymous
Ooh mortician is a good guess! I’ve been watching too much Six Feet Under.
TBK
You must not be a lawyer if anti-lawyer sentiment shocks you. Even my non-lawyer boss makes lawyer jokes at my expense at least weekly. I guess it’s unfair but I figure it just goes with the territory. But then I might seriously consider being a lobbyist someday, so I figure thick skin is the way to go.
lawsuited
+1 Lawyer jokes barely register with me anymore, and to the extent that they do, I just laugh along. It is not a big deal to me at all.
CountC
+2
Sarabeth
I think people resent how complex the law itself is, and how inaccessible ‘justice’ of any sort therefore is to people who don’t have access to a lawyer. Which is often a fair complaint – but then they attribute the problem to lawyers as a class, rather than to the people who write laws and manage the legal system.
anonymous
I think most people don’t have an appreciation for how complex the law is. Most people think that most things are and should be common sense, and if they don’t easily understanding it then someone is obfuscating the matter in order to make it more complicated and then demand high fees for their services.
Sarabeth
Yeah, this is really what I mean. They have experiences that leave a bad taste in their mouth, and they blame lawyers, rather than the underlying complexity of the law. And sometimes (not always) they have a legitimate complaint about needless complexity.
regulatory lawyer
+1 to both. I think people simultaneously think that the answers to their question should be really easy and are disappointed when it takes 10 hours to research the correct answer, and upset that “the law” (usually statutory law/regulation) is so complicated that you need a lawyer or else. I think people blame lawyers for the fact that it’s complex, like we did it en masse to drive up fees, rather than because, say, the world is complex. Also, hello administrative state.
A friend of mine (who owns a farm) called me the other day to ask whether she was required to pay vet bills when her dog, who was known to be territorial but had never bitten a human, attacked and killed a dog that another person (invitee) brought onto my friend’s property without permission and after being told not to do so because her dog was territorial.
I don’t do dogbite law, but the answer is just not 100% clear because there are so many factors involved.
Killer Kitten Heels
You’re not a lawyer, so I guess this wouldn’t work for you, but for other lawyers out there dealing with this, I tend to have fun leaning into it – “Oh yes, lawyers ARE the worst! We’re all complete sociopaths! Well, I was either going to go to law school or join an international money laundering ring, so…” You get the idea. It’s kind of great to watch people frantically backpedal.
lawsuited
I do this as well! “You are so right! I make it a point not to talk to lawyers anymore that I have to – what are you doing wrong?!”
January
+1 – if someone says they hate lawyers, I usually just smile and say, “I know, me too.” (There’s always at least one lawyer that you’re working with who is ticking you off – think of that person!) But I think you have to actually be a lawyer to pull this off.
Runner 5
Oh my gosh, I have to do this next time someone gets on my case about going into banking.
AnonInFL
My husband does personal injury law and I’m in management at a pharmaceutical company – he gets the indirectly-mean-spirited lawyer jokes and I get accosted about the price of the chronic medication someone’s Aunt Sue can’t pay for. I usually respond by calmly explaining the complexities of pharmaceutical pricing which immediately puts even the most irate to sleep. My husband responds with, “Have you met my wife? She works for a pharmaceutical company!” :)
Anonymous
Hahaha I love this!
Artemis
Help, dear Hive.
I sometimes post on the mom site but this site seems better suited to my situation. Been reading for years!
Without giving too many details, my husband is a lawyer at an AmLaw 100 firm on the Eastern seaboard (not NYC). He essentially got the “up or out” talk yesterday from his mentor, with the caveat that he doesn’t want to be partner (and his mentor knows this) so it’s really only “out”. He essentially has about 3-6 months left to find another job or be unemployed. I am purposefully underemployed (although still full-time) because we have kids and needed flexibility and better work-life balance somewhere.
He’s starting a hard-core job search and I am helping him. We are already planning ahead financially for the worst-case scenario and anything in between. BUT, he’s never really had this kind of setback in his life before, and it’s tough to see that there somehow will be light at the end of the tunnel.
I guess my questions are, any tips for emotionally supporting him through this time, from those who have been through something similar or dealt with a spouse going through something similar? And any commiseration? This could be a big deal, it could not be if he finds another job quickly (kind of hard these days)–but maybe a few “it gets better” stories from those that have been there with varying degrees of difficulty? I just could really use some stories from those who have been there and come out the other side OK, even if it took awhile and was painful at times.
Thanks.
Anon
Almost that exact same thing happened to my best friend’s husband. He’s an attorney and she’s a SAHM who hasn’t worked in several years. He was given 3 months to find another job. He got another, better job much closer to both their families within a month or so of the “get out” talk. He did this by using his network. So who knows, this might not be a long, drawn out, terrible thing.
In terms of supporting your husband, ask him what he needs. The way I need support and the way my husband need support are very different, so just point blank ask him what would be the most helpful things for you to do and not do.
Also, maybe start putting out feelers for yourself to see what’s out there in case at the end of this 3-6 month period he’s unemployed. Those are 3-6 months you could be using to do your own job search just in case.
Anonymous
+1 to doing your own job search while he’s doing his.
Artemis
I actually am employed full-time but in a way less stressful/better benefits job than previously (I was a litigator as well). I’ve been at my job less than 2 years and it is great for our family on many levels although the pay is low. So it’s not quite the SAHM situation. But I am considering whether I need to look for a higher-paying job, or at least start a low-key search. That is not our first choice but we’re sort of deciding when along this timeline we need to start or stop doing certain things depending on how his job search is going. Thanks so much for the reply.
Anon
Well, hopefully you won’t have to take another job, but I think the time to start looking for a higher paying job is now, rather than starting from scratch 3-6 months from now. That’s just what I would do, but I’m an anxious, worst case scenario person, and feeling like I’m at least doing something helps.
Meg Murry
Yes – I don’t think you need to go into full on “apply for all the jobs!” mode. But it would be a good time to go into “start browsing postings to see what’s out there, brush up your resume, go to more networking events that usual” mode.
Also, once this isn’t so fresh for your husband, it would be a good time to talk about whether he wants to look for another intense big job or whether he wants to have a turn being the one to step back a little at work and take on more household/family stuff, or whether you can make lifestyle adjustments for you both to have full time but not necessarily high flying, high paying jobs.
Also, for some commiseration, being let go from what I thought was my “dream job at my dream company” was actually one of the best things to ever happen to me – because I was really unhappy there, but I never would have let myself quit. Once someone else made that decision for me, it really freed me up to look at what I actually wanted instead of just going for what I felt like I “should” want, or acknowledging that a job can sound awesome in theory but in the day to day reality it just wasn’t for me.
mascot
Having been in a somewhat similar situation, here’s my advice. Give him a little bit of time to grieve in the coming weeks. Even if he knew this was coming, it’s hard to process. To the extent you can, try to keep your own panic off of him (if that’s how you react). Confide in your friends or however you handle it. And if he confides in you, stay positive. My husband got really panicky and despondent when I had a similar transition (omg, we need to sell the house right now) and it made a stressful situation even more so. It was a pretty rough patch in our relationship because we were both freaking out, but couldn’t lean on each other because that made it worse. You’ve got some time here and it sounds like he is already looking at other options. I also agree that looking at other options for yourself may help, especially if he is leaving the craziness of biglaw and may have better work-life options himself. You will get through this.
Anon
Good luck to you. I was in the same position as your husband — except I wanted to be partner and then my department decided they weren’t even going to put me up — bc they had lost some significant business recently (nothing I had anything to do with) and realized that the much more important corporate dept would laugh in their face at the idea of another new litigation partner when the current partners weren’t cutting it. So anyway after 8+ yrs of 2400+ hrs/yr, I was shown the door.
I wish I could say it was mentally easy or it got better, but it really hasn’t and it’s been 2.5 yrs for me. Spent 18 months unemployed. And now 12 months in a fed gov’t job that I KNOW I am VERY fortunate to have but just is not for me. I still miss everything about my old life, as I was one of those rare biglaw seniors who loved the work, my junior/mid level associates etc. — I also have no life outside of work. So maybe it’ll be easier for your husband since he doesn’t seem like he wants to stay anyway and he has a family. Good luck.
Anon for this
I was given a talk like that. I was in similar shoes to your DH – didn’t want to make partner, wanted to do something else – so while it wasn’t unexpected it was still sort of shocking and I felt a little bit like a failure. I had sort of hoped that I’d have the chance to reject them rather than them rejecting me.
From your perspective, just support him. Listen to him vent and don’t try to solve all of his problems. Strategize about what will happen if he reaches the 6 month period and hasn’t found anything – will you step up at work? Will he be a SAHD for a few months while job hunting? Will you take this opportunity to relocate?
For me, I found a job at roughly the 6 month mark. I did this by leveraging connections at the firm I was at. Everyone knows that not all associates can make partner and that not all associates want to make partner – it’s basically the business model of the law firm to have associates leave. Most law firms want to keep former associates as future clients or for them to go on to prestigious jobs so that they can brag about their connections. So I talked with partners who had experience in the area I wanted to get into, and an opportunity came in through one of them. I also did a lot of work on my part to apply to anything and everything that looked interesting and that I was qualified for. In particular, if he’s interested in going in-house, he should definitely start talking with his mentor about opportunities with some of the firm’s clients – many law firms look at this as a chance to deepen their relationships with clients.
Anon
Anon who posted at 10:12 — nice in theory but don’t be shocked if it doesn’t work out like that. I know my old firm (NYC) did a LOT of lip service to “we want to help you,” “you’re a fantastic associate,” “we want to deepen connections with clients.” And this wasn’t just for me but for many other associates over the years. The reality was however, when you asked them about opportunities or intros or even pushing your application to a human rather than just applying online, most partners hemmed and hawed and tried NOT to do it. Reality is that business is shaky for a lot (not all) firms and partners are feeling under pressure themselves. They do NOT want to use up a connection or ask a favor of a client lest they need the favor for themselves later OR even if they don’t — they don’t want to be seen as demanding/asking anything of a client so as not to offend that client in any way.
At least at my old firm, the days of getting a soft landing where a senior partner would make 3 calls for a stellar associate resulting in 2 offers are LONG gone. Rather it’s up to the associate to struggle to get an in house job on their own and THEN if you get one, then you get all the “OMG we’re SO proud of you, we MUST take you to lunch,” as well as all the fawning that comes after you start the job as every partner you worked with wonders if they can somehow get work from you.
Anon for this
Agreed that it doesn’t always work like that, but there’s no harm in trying – especially if he’s a decent associate and is open to many possible opportunities. I absolutely do not think he should rely on that as the only means of job searching. And I think he needs to line up references from partners. I didn’t walk around my firm proclaiming that I was job hunting, but it was also not a secret, so I easily had a few references to give.
Anonymous
At my former Big Law firm, many or even most associates in this situation were “placed” by the firm into clients. It was a win-win for everyone: senior associate got a cushy in-house gig and the firm got another friendly (and grateful!) face at the client. He should start there. I bet his firm will be very willing to help make introductions at all their major clients.
Anonymous
As the poster above says, I think it depends on each firm — only your husband can know what his firm is like. I know at my NYC firm — the corporate department was VERY willing to do this bc they had a lot of clients, a lot of clout, and were thinking big picture — help out an associate now, he’ll be grateful next yr and likely forever so it really solidifies a relationship. The litigation department OTOH was NEVER willing to do this; in large part bc they had VERY little business of their own — even at a vault 50 firm, their partners weren’t truly generating business but were rather just handling the litigation business spinning off of the many corporate department clients. That meant the relationships weren’t as solid and they felt that in order to get a stellar senior associate placed, a litigation partner would have to go grovel to a corporate partner and hope that the corporate partner agreed and made a move for the associate; the litigation partners just didn’t care enough to do this — they were worried about groveling to the corporate partners for their own work and salaries, not for some lit associate.
Idea
It’s not a setback since he didn’t want to be a Partner.
He’s smart!! It’s a new path is all, and whether or not he chose the timing won’t matter a year from now.
Anon
Keep your sense of humor. I’m a panicker who was laid off yrs ago from a job i loved, and I’m in a very specialized field and was unwilling to relocate. I did find a job fairly easily in hindsight. Also financially dont cut back too extremely on little things that you all enjoy – that money doesnt matter too much in the big picture and your mental health and happiness of DH and your family is worth it!
Artemis
Thank you to ALL of you who replied. I feel better, I feel better equipped to take some next steps that I hadn’t yet thought of, and I took something or things valuable from each and every comment.
Happy weekend, everyone. This place rocks.
Shopping
You’d vastly increase the job-hunting likelihood of success if you looked into expanding your professional role. Would he be ok with being the sahparent for a while or working part time to your full? And do either of you feel he “should” bring home more money?
Artemis
Since this just happened yesterday, the issues you bring up are definitely on the table but we haven’t fully addressed them yet–we will as we go forward, and I’ll start at least looking at job openings–I can’t expand my role where I am now in any immediate sense. I don’t think either of us feel he “should” bring home more money, but he has done so in varying degrees for the past 8 years, so it’s the pattern our family has fallen into. We also do have some long-range business plans that are better served by me having a “lesser” job but change is in the air for us now so we’ll see what shakes out!
anon
I’m not in law, but I was laid off and unemployed for a period of time. I was the only one with an income in my household. (My husband was in school full-time). So it was definitely a shock and a scary situation. I am so grateful that my husband never once judged me or criticized me for losing my job or tried to tell me what to do to find a new one. He had faith in me and encouraged me during the four months that I went on job interview after job interview. I know some spouses get worry and critical in situations like this, and I’m so, so, so glad that he didn’t do that. I think it would have ruined our marriage, honestly. I was already questioning myself and going through so much mental torture trying to process what happened. Based on my experience, I would just reiterate how important it is to support your husband and give him space to figure out what he wants to do. It will take time to find a new job. You may take a financial loss, but that’s a part of life. Be his cheerleader.
In House Counsel
I’m usually an occasional commenter but wanted to seek some feedback from this great group of women including working moms. Apologies for the length in advance…
I’ve been practicing law now for 9 yrs and have been in-house for the last 5 yrs. I feel that I have a unicorn job currently that gives me great work life balance, interesting work and challenges and has a good group of people who i work with/report to. However, as I’ve been in my current role for 5 yrs with increasing responsibility (no managerial though) over the years, I’ve been asking about promotions and longer term growth trajectory. This question became more urgent when our department reorganized how work was divided between the attorneys and changed up some reporting lines. After several months of silence, all the junior attorneys including myself were informed earlier this week by our manager that our GC no longer wants to have 5 distinct titles/roles beneath the GC in the legal department and wants to condense it down to 3 titles/roles beneath the GC and does not have any clear metrics for promotions. This would not only mean that I would remain at my current title for longer time than initially apparent when hired but its also not clear what is required for promotion. Our GC apparently believe interim title changes are meaningless but our GC’s perspective is skewed as he has also spent his entire life at this company working up from a legal intern in our parent organization to being GC the last 15 yrs and has little grasp on the market trends in hiring. And many of the senior attys in the other higher titles/roles are lifers at this company.
I’m confused now about what would be wise longer term. I truly love my job and find both the industry and the products I work with fascinating, feel that there is a lot of scope of learning and expanding my skill set here, have an understanding working mom boss, have a good salary and guaranteed bonus and the cherry on the top is that I have fantastic work life balance (rarely work any weekends and can work from home 2x a week which is crucial with a toddler and a preschooler and a hubby with his own demanding career). Its a secure industry and the company has always done well and is on the cutting edge with their products and adapting it for this digital age. However, as I look around at other friends from law school and seeing them progress to other titles and presumably move up the ladder and make more money, I’m wondering if I’m being foolish in not starting to look ASAP or whether I should stick with what works for our life for now. I worry that if I choose to stay put now and then later in 3-5 yrs decide i want a better title/more money, recruiters and other hiring managers may think its odd that I stayed at one title w/o changes for over 8 yrs? Would love some advice esp for those who are in the later stages of their career about how best to plot and plod along.
CountC
If the only problem is that your title won’t change, I think you would be crazy to leave what otherwise seems to be a really good job intellectually and for your family. But I am not a person who cares about titles and haven’t found titles to be an impediment to my career either in my pre-law school or post-laws school days, so YMMV!
CountC
Crazy was a little harsh, I wouldn’t do it if I were you was my point!
Badlands
+1 – your story to recruiters down the line is ” There were no title changes available as I was already working directly for the head of my department. I did have XYZ changes in responsibilities over the years and have worked on ABC type things and have a lot of experience in JKL area of the law.”
All you see from your friends is a change in title – you don’t know what that actually means for them. Some companies change titles and some don’t. I wouldn’t leave a job and boss I liked and was currently working for me.
Cat
More anecdata here — I think that promotions/title changes as in-house counsel are generally slow because it’s a low turnover environment, particularly if you happen to join a company that has a GC on the younger side. If you change your mind in a few years, I highly doubt anyone would think of you as a low performer due to lack of title changes.
Bewitched
Agreed. I’ve had the same title for a loooong time, and just recently decided to start applying for jobs in my field which are one step up (e.g. my boss’s level). I’ve been offered two positions. The only question which occasionally has tripped me up in the application process is whether I have supervisory experience. I do have such experience but not in my current job (and leadership experience on a board), but that is one thing that I wish my relatively flat organization had offered to me.
Lobbyist
Stop looking around and comparing yourself to others. You have it good! Enjoy!
In House Counsel
I’m usually an occasional commenter but wanted to seek some career feedback from this great group of women, including working moms. Apologies for the length in advance…
I’ve been practicing law now for 9 yrs and have been in-house for the last 5 yrs. I feel that I have a unicorn job currently that gives me great work life balance, interesting work and challenges and has a good group of people who i work with/report to. However, as I’ve been in my current role for 5 yrs with increasing responsibility (no managerial though) over the years, I’ve been asking about promotions and longer term growth trajectory. This question became more urgent when our department reorganized how work was divided between the attorneys and changed up some reporting lines. After several months of silence, all the junior attorneys including myself were informed earlier this week by our manager that our GC no longer wants to have 5 distinct titles/roles beneath the GC in the legal department and wants to condense it down to 3 titles/roles beneath the GC and does not have any clear metrics for promotions. This would not only mean that I would remain at my current title for longer time than initially apparent when hired but its also not clear what is required for promotion. Our GC apparently believe interim title changes are meaningless but our GC’s perspective is skewed as he has also spent his entire life at this company working up from a legal intern in our parent organization to being GC the last 15 yrs and has little grasp on the market trends in hiring. And many of the senior attys in the other higher titles/roles are lifers at this company.
I’m confused now about what would be wise longer term. I truly love my job and find both the industry and the products I work with fascinating, feel that there is a lot of scope of learning and expanding my skill set here, have an understanding working mom boss, have a good salary and guaranteed bonus and the cherry on the top is that I have fantastic work life balance (rarely work any weekends and can work from home 2x a week which is crucial with a toddler and a preschooler and a hubby with his own demanding career). Its a secure industry and the company has always done well and is on the cutting edge with their products and adapting it for this digital age. However, as I look around at other friends from law school and seeing them progress to other titles and presumably move up the ladder and make more money, I’m wondering if I’m being foolish in not starting to look ASAP or whether I should stick with what works for our life for now. I worry that if I choose to stay put now and then later in 3-5 yrs decide i want a better title/more money, recruiters and other hiring managers may think its odd that I stayed at one title w/o changes for over 8 yrs? Would love some advice esp for those who are in the later stages of their career about how best to plot and plod along.
Another payroll question
I work for a small biz that has an office manager who functions as HR, AR, payroll, etc. She is learning as she goes on the payroll side and has made a lot of minor errors and one bigger error. The problem is, I’m the only one that apparently looks at my paystubs so I’m the only one catching the errors. I’ve addressed the errors with her directly. Now I have to address them with the owner after she didn’t consult him regarding how to fix one of the errors. Since payroll is important and she can’t seem to get it right (though she does well at all of her other job functions) the company is going to be outsourcing it soon. In the meantime, however, she is very defensive around me and I get the impression that she thinks I’m out to get her, documenting all her mistakes. In reality, I’m just trying to make sure I get paid right – that my LTD premiums are paid, that they are paid post tax so I don’t get taxed if I collect on them, so I don’t owe the IRS money at the end of the year and so on.
Today is payday again. My salaried pay rate and all of my other deductions have remained the same. Yet, my federal withholding is $6 less. It’s $6, I can let it go, this is all getting outsourced soon. But, I will have to make sure that what she gives the payroll service is correct. Is there any reason the amount withheld from my federal tax (not social security) should change mid year when nothing else has changed? I really don’t want to ask her because my last conversation with her ended in her crying and thinking she was going to be fired. Unfortunately, if I ask owner, he will talk to her and somehow it will come out that it was me who had the issue. He tried to hide that last time but she claimed the error was on his paycheck only so he said no —- has the same issue too. So she figured out quickly that I was again the one that found the error.
Anonymous
Don’t sweat the $6. The outsourcing company will likely have their own tax tables/software they are working with which will correct as necessary. This is basically an adjustment error.
There could be any number of reasons why there was a change and none of them are worth anything more than a watchful eye at this point.
Another payroll question
Thank you!
Meg Murry
Yup, the $6 is probably nothing (or is correcting a previous mistake, in which case maybe you overpaid a tiny bit)? I wouldn’t stress about it if the outsourcing is happening soon, but keep an eye on it if the transition is going to take a while before it actually happens.
But when you get your first new paystub from the outsourcing company, look very very closely to make sure that whatever it says in the “year to date” column is correct, as well as the number of federal and state exemptions – because that’s where I’ve seen a lot of transitions from one payroll company to another go wonky. It’s not always a human error, sometimes it’s just a data conversion problem. But that is what is going to show up on your W-2 at the end of the year, so make sure it is right.
Anon
My husband and I are both lawyers and work in different firms with different but related practices. He recently switched from another firm where our practice areas overlapped more significantly but our firms were never really in competition with each other. From my viewpoint, we have both had some real success lately, although our successes look slightly different. A lot of the recognition I’ve gotten recently has come very directly from some work my husband sent my way when his firm was unable to take it on. He often struggles with self-esteem and impostor syndrome, and since he’s with a new firm now and focusing more intensely on a newish area of law, his feeling that he’s a fraud is even higher than usual.
Lately it seems like any recognition I get he takes as a slight. If I say that something good happened to me, he says something like “that never happens to me” or “no one cares what I do.” He has said he feels jealous and somewhat resents the success I’ve had from the work he sent to me, that he feels like he could have had all that but had to give it away. He admits that that’s not a helpful way to feel, but that he feels that way nonetheless. I’ve noticed he often sees his friends’ successes this way, too, and despite the fact that he’s been incredibly successful in his career, he believes all of his friends are more successful than he is. When I say that we should be a team and that career success is not a zero sum game, he says that that’s easy for me to say since I’ve been the beneficiary of him sending me work. I always go out of my way to talk him up and to point potential clients his way. People don’t always know we’re related and will bring him up in conversation as a real leader in his field (given that we’re under 40, this is quite an accomplishment).
Is there anything I can do? When I point out his successes to him, he feels like I’m patronizing him. In my perfect world, we’d not only be happy for each other’s successes but really on the same team, using each other as sounding boards, passing along useful information, etc. But when I, for example, forward him an article related to something he’s working on, he acts like I must think he’s incompetent to not have seen that article already (honestly it doesn’t even cross my mind — I just see the article and think “oh, husband is working on that!” and hit send). Meanwhile, he never passes along information he comes across, which is extra harmful because other people who know us both will refrain from passing along info because they figure he’s already told me.
And before anyone asks, yes, he’s depressed and yes he’s getting treatment for it. And yes this problem of seeing the worst in everything, especially as it applies to himself, is a lifelong one. I just hate feeling like I’m a constant source of pain for my husband when I should be the place he can go to get built back up to face the world.
Anonymous
This sounds like a tough situation. I don’t have any advice about the real issue, but one thing in your comment jumped out at me: you shouldn’t be relying on your husband to communicate professional info to you. Even if he were perfectly happy and healthy and you two were sending each other articles all the time, it’s a problem if your professional contacts are not telling you something because they assume he will tell you (unless you are actually in business together). If he’s at a different firm, people who want you to know something need to tell you, not him. I’d start by communicating to your contacts that information shouldn’t be sent to him on the assumption it will get to you. (And I would stop sending him stuff to, because it seems to be making him feel bad without accomplishing anything).
Anon
To be clear, this isn’t crucial stuff, but more like “hey there’s this conference that could be interesting.” Something that’s useful but not essential.
Bewitched
Well, you know, depression lies. So no matter what you say to your husband, he’s not going to feel better about himself until his therapy and meds kick in. I think you should just keep being supportive and recognize, this is not about you, it’s about him. Maybe dial back the work discussions and try to focus your conversations and activities on non-work things so that the competitive piece doesn’t kick in for him? Limit discussion of your successes and/or deflect? I’m not sure, but as someone with a depressed family member, I’ve come to realize there is zero, nada, nothing that I can say that will make him feel better about himself. I offer love and support (and occasional advice since it’s my child and I hope it seeps in somehow). It’s hard, I know.
Anon
Thanks. Any tips on encouraging regular therapy? He’s on meds and has had therapy in the past, but since he got out of a really deep place he was in, he hasn’t been back even though he agrees with me that regular check-in appointments would be helpful. His response is that he needs to work harder and so can’t take the time off, which neatly creates a vicious cycle (depression says he’s a fraud -> he needs to work harder -> doesn’t have time for therapy -> more depression saying he’s a fraud).
Anon in NYC
Does his therapist offer early morning/late night appointments? Can he call and ask (or can you?)? I don’t think you should manage his life, but it sounds like he needs a little bit of hand holding to make this as easy as possible.
Bewitched
I wish I had some. Perhaps just reinforce to him that you think the sessions are helpful to him and you notice X difference and Y difference when he’s going to therapy? Saying he doesn’t have time is obviously a defense mechanism, since therapists have morning appointments and sometimes evening and weekend appointments. Also, he’d find time for chemotherapy! (I know you agree, I’m preaching to the choir). I also try reverse psychology-when you go, it really helps me and our relationship (but since it’s my kid and he’s not fully mature, that approach really doesn’t work-you know, it’s all about him and not me). Good luck, it’s really hard.
Meg Murry
Can you say that to him? As in “Honey, I know you’ve come a long way from when you were in your deepest, darkest depression, and I’m glad the meds are helping, but you are still so hard on yourself. What can I do so that you can make the time to talk to someone about this?”
Has he been on the same level of meds for a while? Some meds help you get out of the lowest of the low places, but may need a dosage increase or to be used in combination with another med or therapy to take it to the next level.
In the meantime, can you find a friend or colleague to celebrate your work successes with, so you give H the more general “yeah, it was a pretty good day” and then talk to friend about “boss said I totally rocked the XYZ Corp presentation, that felt so good to hear!”
Anon
There are lots of alternatives to traditional therapy now. There’s a service where you have a therapist who texts back and forth, and online formats as well. Those sound like they might be a good solution for him?
I feel your pain. Lots of hugs.
bridget
“I just hate feeling like I’m a constant source of pain for my husband when I should be the place he can go to get built back up to face the world.”
You are not a constant source of pain to your husband by succeeding. His depression and mental state are the sources of pain.
As for what you can do: all I think is of the old joke about how many psychologists it takes to change a light bulb: one, but the light bulb has to want to change. Best I can come up with is to make it clear to him that it doesn’t have to be this way. In a better world, he would have enough perspective on his life to be proud of his successes and be proud of you (and be relieved that if something happened to him, you would be able to support the family). He *can* have that, but is currently choosing not to. To your detriment as well as his.
Shayla
If you had ~$500 in gift cards to spend at Sa ks, what would you buy?
Anonymous
I think I might invest in shoes, since I normally would never have that much to spend on clothes at a single time. Enjoy!
Bonnie
I’d get a nice bag, maybe this one: http://www.saksfifthavenue.com/main/ProductDetail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374306622828&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524446913008&R=887712947508&P_name=Tory+Burch&N=306622828+1553+1537+1559&bmUID=lkm0ORQ
If you haven’t done so already, sign up for the email list and they’ll send you discount codes that you can combine with the gift cards. I would be tempted by shoes but I’m just too rough on them to spend that much.
Shopping
Sale items. That could dress your whole family.
Shopping
And birthday/Christmas/anniversary/ whatever presents.
Anon
Echo-ing the Christmas gift suggestion. I ship early and it’s the best thing ever. You get to deliver when you see folks for Thanksgiving and enjoy the holiday season.
Catlady
There are a lot of feelings going on here today. I don’t have any advice but hugs to you all.
Also have a depressed spouse
YOU are not a source of pain for your husband; the depression is the source of pain. And as tough as it is, the depression is not about you; you cannot fix it or make him feel better. Do not stop living your life or celebrating your successes because of the depression. Have you read Depression Fallout or Good Mood Therapy, both excellent books about depression (the first being about its effects on those around the depressed person)?
My suggestion would be to (1) assume he is doing the best that he can right now, and (2) reward/praise any time you see even the slightest positive view point. It feels so much better to give praise than to point out the bad. And gently call him on it when it becomes all about him. Take care of yourself.
OP
Thanks. I haven’t read Depression Fallout and I just downloaded it. Looks like exactly what I’ve been looking for! So many times if you look for something about dealing with a depressed family member, it’s all about how to help the family member. And that’s great, but honestly I 100% get that he can’t just “snap out of it” and I don’t need a list of more ways to tiptoe around my life. It’s great to find something that’s about how to really deal with the situation. Thanks!
Also have a depressed spouse
Also check out the site Storied Mind. Some good stuff there.
I will add that in general, it is shocking how little is out there for those who live with someone who is depressed, either in terms of self-help or just in terms of “been there too and this is how I dealt,” given the prevalence of depression. I’ve thought of writing/blogging about it in layman’s terms many times…..
I'm Just Me ....
I love this top, and I love the Navy available at Dillard’s. I don’t love paying $9 in shipping.
No Problem
Last week someone mentioned the Kate Spade surprise sale. Thank you!
Whoever said money can’t buy happiness never got a great bargain on a beautiful blue handbag she didn’t need, but is so perfect in every way (all the interior pockets!) and so cheerful to look at.