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Updated: Nov 8, 2022 504 Comments · by

Frugal Friday’s Workwear Report: Francine V-Neck Cardigan

The Personal Shopper (TPS) | ·

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A woman wearing a black cardigan and blue jeans

Our daily workwear reports suggest one piece of work-appropriate attire in a range of prices.

I love the look of a cozy cardigan for fall, and this V-neck from Amazon’s The Drop collection is a perfect example. The slightly cropped length goes perfectly with skirts and high-rise pants, but isn’t so short that I’m nervous about wearing it to the office.

It comes in six colors and a huge range of sizes — perfect for stocking up as the weather gets chilly.

The sweater comes in sizes XXS–5X.

Sales of note for 9.30.24

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth is a 30-something lawyer living on the East Coast. She spent seven years as a Biglaw associate in NYC, three years as a partner at a medium-sized firm, and is now in-house counsel for a large company. She loves Diet Coke, '90s sitcoms, and dresses with pockets.

Comments

  1. Friday

    Is it normal to have a 5-7 business day hold on transferring larger sums of money? (5 digits)
    Opened a new bank account last Friday and was told it would be held for 5 business days. Checked today and was told by someone else it would be held 7 business days. Have never used this bank before so a little nervous but it should be fine, right? It had good reviews and they have a brick & mortar location I can visit if needed.

    • Cat

      that is a little on the long side in my experience but not unusual for there to be a lag time, especially for a new bank customer.

      • Vicky Austin

        Agree, but totally fine to visit the b&m location today if you can squeeze it in.

    • anon a mouse

      5 digits (and sometimes high 4) will trigger additional compliance requirements for anti-money-laundering protections so that’s not abnormal.

    • Anonymous

      Uh I’m really glad you posted this because I’m closing on a house in 2 weeks and it didn’t occur to me that there might be more than a 24 hour lag time in wiring the down payment.

      • Formerly Lilly

        It may be worth an inquiry as to how they want the funds sourced. My last closing required a wire transfer, which I’ve never had to do before, and I received last minute notification of that and had to hustle to set it up.

        • Anonymous

          Yeah it has to be a wire. They don’t accept cashiers checks that big and even if they did I would very strongly prefer to not carry around a 6 figure cashiers check.

        • Senior Attorney

          Yeah, I switched banks recently and it was a horrible hassle to get the funds transferred and accessible. At one point they actually froze five figures worth of money because they hadn’t been able to verify the social security number of ONE of the two account holders (which was itself a screwup) so neither account holder could get the funds. My head about exploded. Moral of the story: When switching banks, always keep some money where you know you can get your hands on it.

      • Cat

        yeah, you’ll want to double check in advance, but this is more tr-nsfer of a large amount of funds to a new bank. If you need to move money from an investment account to your checking (both existing) it should take a day or two, not a week.

    • Anon

      I was transferring $200 to a new bank account via check mobile deposit and it was a 6 day holding period…

      When I did the online transfer there was also a holding period but to me that makes more sense because they’re verifying it’s the right account. Not sure why the check was held that long.

      It took so long I was almost in violation of the minimum balance policy.

    • Anon.

      I experience this every time I’m transferring money to Fidelity. It takes about a week for the transferred funds to settle, which is really annoying.

    • An.On.

      For a new bank account, yes, I’ve had to deal with a longer than usual hold, even for certified funds.

    • Anon

      About ten years ago, I opened a new account at a new bank for campaign funds (I was the treasurer of a statewide ballot initiative). The initial mid-five figure donation had a seven day hold on it – they needed to go through a LOT of compliance checks.

    • Anonymous

      I have encountered long hold times both on new accounts and on 5-figure transfers involving existing accounts.

    • Anon

      Yes there’s a ton of fraud involving fraudulent checks and transfers and often they involve new accounts.

  2. Tea lovers?

    I am hoping someone here is into tea and can point me in the right direction as the world of tea is overwhelming. I am looking for a high-quality decaf English breakfast tea or similar mild tea to have on hand next to drink with honey time I get sick. I had a cheap box from the grocery store recently and it has inspired me to do better. I have a kettle and am willing to buy a strainer or whatever basic equipment is necessary.

  3. Anon8

    I missed the thread on the short nephew yesterday but have an anecdote to go with it–

    My younger sister was always veeery short for her age growing up and I was tall for my age. Like, my kindergarten hand-me-downs didn’t fit my sister until she was in second grade. We are only 3 years apart in age but there are photos where it looks like 8 years younger than me.

    There’s this story that’s famous in my family of when my mom and I traveled somewhere overnight and my sister was at home with my dad when she was about 7 or 8 years old. Sister was having a meltdown because she missed mom, she called crying and listing everything that was wrong. You know, dad didn’t tuck me in right, etc. She ended the list with an indignant “And I’m short, too!” Now that’s become somewhat of a catch phrase in my family for when you’re complaining about something, you can always add “And I’m short, too!”

    Anyways, I slowed down growing early and my sister had a growth spurt in high school and now she’s 5’4″ and I’m 5’7″. Which is to say, some people just grow at different rates!

    • Anon

      Another poster: I am basically same height since I was 12-13. Had a fast growth spur just before my period hit, then it stopped. So I was the tallest girl in the elementary school [up to 14yo], but when I went to high school, I suddenly found myself in the bottom half of single-file-by-height queue. I am 5’7″.
      There is nothing you can do to stimulate growth and as an aunt, I would stay very far away from this topic.

      • anon

        I am exactly the same, only I never grew past 5’4. I can still ride my bike I got for my 11th birthday. RIP my brief period of being tall.

      • Anon

        Hi, I am sort of you: taller than both of my 4th grade teachers, never had cute kid shoes b/c I had giant hobbit adult feet. Today, I am 5-4, but all leg, so shopping in the petites department for blazers and tops. I just chuckle — puberty is often a full stop for girls growing and the beginning of it for boys. People still see me as tall (even if they didn’t know me as a kid), so I guess I give off a tall vibe? But I’m spot-on average now and only generally wear flats

        • Anon

          I’m also 5’4” but people think I’m taller! Everyone guesses 5’8” or so. I never wear more than a 2” heel and am usually in flats.

          • Anonymous

            I am not quite 5’6″ and for some reason people think I am legitimately tall. I attribute it to good posture and a tall personality.

        • Anon

          Yep. I was tall in 4th grade but quit growing then. Now I’m 5’3″ on a good day and it’s all leg.

          That’s interesting that people still see you as tall; I don’t think of myself as short, but apparently people see me as tiny!

      • No Face

        Same! I was mentally prepared to be an Amazon woman and I ended up being average height. I kept the “Amazon woman” attitude though!

      • Anon

        I grew an inch in college also. It’s very unusual for a woman, but I went through puberty late.

      • Anon

        Sa me! I went from 5’2 to 5’4 my freshman year of college.

        I had been recruited as a coxswain and was told if I kept growing they’d have to make me a rower.

    • anon

      That post yesterday made me really sad for the nephew. Like, how about the whole family backs off, stops worrying about his height unless there’s an actual medical issue (doesn’t sound like it), and validate his feelings while gently reminding him that people are made in all shapes and sizes, and that there is NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM.

      • Vicky Austin

        Honestly, it sounded like the family were doing all the right things. The kid, in his presumable preteen angst, was the one looking for something to Do About It.

      • Anonymous

        Yeah. Reading it this morning, the family probably thinks they’re validating his feelings by saying height doesn’t matter, but it matters TO HIM.

      • Anon

        This. It’s like no matter what you are in your youth, in the retirement homes, we are all just old. I don’t want anyone to go through life beating them up for not being something that their genes didn’t produce for them: tall, skinny, blonde, smart, athletic, etc. We have some choices to make, but not all of the choices. And the choices are what make you the person you are: kind? hard-working? funny? In the retirement home, I want a kind roommate vs one who is a certain height, color, etc.

        Plus, anyone on the smaller side can be a pilot more easily than a really tall person and everyone knows that pilots are cool. Kidding but sort of not — maybe he has a niche claim on something cool that floats his boat?

        • anon

          I appreciate this sentiment as an adult. But telling a preteen to stop worrying about their appearance by thinking about who they’ll be in the retirement home isn’t an effective strategy.

          • Anon

            OTOH, pilots ARE cool — maybe see Top Gun Maverick and see if there is any traction there? Or the original Top Gun?

      • Anon

        I couldn’t tell from the post how short he is actually is. If he just hasn’t hit puberty yet, meh. It kind of sounds like it’s a preoccupation for him.

        That said, I think every one I know who had an actual legitimate medical issue impairing growth also had a pediatrician brush off their / their parents’ concerns without actually checking if something was wrong, resulting in delayed diagnosis.

        • Anon

          To be clearer about what I mean, whether it’s a serious issue like Celiac (which came up in yesterday’s thread) or hypophosphatasia (which can be severe or mild but is not just “genetic” but an actual genetic condition), or whether it’s something as minor as a vitamin D deficiency or a mineral deficiency, so many people aren’t even tested until they hit 18 and see an internist, even though they needed to know when they were younger.

        • Anon

          I have friends whose son was very, very tiny. The doctor kind of placatingly ordered to tests to rule out an issue, with a “just to confirm nothing is wrong.” Well, hormonally, things were very wrong. After years of treatment, the young man is maybe 5’4” where he was otherwise projected to end up inches shorter. All of this is just to say: if there is any chance that there could be a medical issue, it’s good to rule that have that checked. And not to say anything is wrong, just that it’s good to be sure.

        • Anonymous

          Checking for legitimate medical issues is very, very different from giving the kid a list of things he can do to make himself taller.

        • No Problem

          Yeah, it would be worth getting some blood tests if the nephew and family is concerned about an actual medical problem.

          My older brother was always extremely short for his age, and so was I. But he was so short (like if you looked at how tall we each were at age 10, I was taller than him, and I was the shortest one in my class) that around age 12 or 13 my dad had him tested for human growth hormone and I’m sure various other things to make sure there wasn’t anything actually wrong that needed to be addressed before/during puberty. He did this because my brother had always just been so short that there was a legitimate concern that something was wrong, not because my brother was anxious about not having hit his growth spurt yet, which it sounds like is the case with the nephew from yesterday. It turns out that he was just a bit growth delayed, so when he finally started growing around age 15 or 16 he did make it up to around 5’7″ or 5’8″. Still a bit shorter than most of the other men in the family (most are around 5’10”), but definitely much closer to average than he had been throughout childhood.

          • Anon

            Average height for a man in the US is 5’9″. Your brother is right on normal.

    • anon

      I was completely average-sized throughout elementary and middle school. I ended up being 5’9″ and taller than most of the girls in my class who had towered over me seemingly forever. It was quite a weird shift!

    • Height Requirements

      Yesterday’s post about the nephew made me curious. Does or did anyone have firm height requirements for their signfiicant others? When I was using dating apps, I got so tired of the men who bragged about being 6ft+ in their profiles that I actually included in a line in mine that “I really don’t care how tall you are.” After we had been dating for a few weeks, my 5’7 husband told me how much he loved that. Everyone is entitled to their own dealbreakers, but let me put a plug in for dropping height as one of them.

      • height

        I’m also amused when I hear about height preferences.

        If anything, I avoid very tall men. Honestly, I’ve had enough bad experiences in my life with men as a child and adult that I dislike very tall men that look strong enough… to hurt me. I much prefer someone closer to my height.

    • anonmi

      I was late to that thread yesterday, but in reading it, I wondered if the nephew or his friends have gotten into online Incel communities, which tend to be fixated on height and perpetuate the believe that men <6ft tall are undateable. Aunt should probably generally stay out of this, but it might be worth mentioning to the parents that they should check his online activities.

      • Anon

        I hadn’t even considered the red pill angle. Well that is depressing to think about!

        • anonmi

          It’s definitely the type of thing they’d want to find out now so they can put a stop to it before he gets sucked into that whole weird, toxic subculture. It does seem weird for a preteen to be preoccupied with their height unless they are way on the low end of the spectrum. My son is 10 and his friends range from about 4’4″ to 5’4″, and no one seems to pay much attention to height at their age.

      • Anon

        I mean you don’t have to be an incel to think that dating as a short guy will be somewhat tough because most women prefer men who are taller than they are. I’m 5’11” and married to an (awesome and very attractive!) man who is two inches shorter than me, but it’s definitely “weird” and we got a lot of negative comments when we first started dating.

    • DeepSouth

      I am 5’5″. My dad is 5’7″ and my mom is 5″. I grew up thinking I was some sort of Sasquatch and am honestly surprised at myself in group photos where it’s obvious I am a medium sized person. my enormous size was a favored topic of conversation in my family of origin and I have a bunch of issues about it. I hate that the family is making it A Thing for short nephew.

      My sister is 4’11” and was the tallest kid in her class in third and fourth grade and now is still the tallest third grader in the room.

      People grow differently. Bodies come in different sizes.

    • Anon

      ALSO, with boys, a lot of them are red-shirted now. If nephew is natural age for his grade, there may be boys close to 2 years older than him in there. When my daughter (summer birthday) went to K, she had just turned 5. Several boys in there were 7. That is a significant difference at that age and then those kids will hit puberty much earlier than the rest of the class, keeping the size/height disparity going through high school.

      • Trish

        Yes, another reason that I hate red-shirting. My son was five when he started kindergarten and short for his age at the time.

    • To yesterday's aunt

      To yesterday’s aunt:

      One thing you might show your nephew, if it seems relevant to you in a conversation, is the amazing Howard Schatz photographs of Olympic athletes.

      He photographed athletes from very different sports, men and women, and it’s fascinating to see how many different body sizes and shapes can be in fantastic shape and at the peak of what the human body can accomplish. All of them are amazing, and the photo showcases that there are several sports where being a shorter man will be a massive advantage.

    • Coach Laura

      I posted late yesterday so if OP didn’t see it, please check the thread.

  4. anon

    For at least the past six months, maybe longer, I have really been struggling with not feeling appreciated at work. Part of me thought it was in my head. Then my day started out with a colleague flippantly made a rude remark about the value of one of the biggest projects I manage. Basically, she said, “Nobody uses this.” This is a project that I have delayed vacations over, have lost sleep over, have done my best to execute at a high level. Have never missed a deadline for, even when short staffed. I literally had to walk out of the room to avoid crying. She pretty much confirmed my worst fears.

    I have been in my organization a long time, and the thought of moving on honestly makes me want to throw up. But to feel like a sane person, I have to know that my work matters. And it’s becoming clearer every day that maybe here, it doesn’t matter.

    • Anon

      Your colleague was rude. Sounds like you have spent lots of energy on delivering your best work, it is not appreciated and maybe not used. I would start there – can you check with a few stakeholders or your internal customers to find out whether the thing you have created is used, how and if not, why? I had my Finance Business Partner develop a super complex tracker that in her head was perfect and provided all answers. In real life, it was extremely user unfriendly, every person in marketing hated it, because it was complicated to find information in, complicated to update and simply failed in user experience. The Finance person collected feedback and reworked the system to a more digestable version and everyone’s happy. Not saying this is your case, but I would dig into this, talk to people. Also, tip your boss off to ensure he or she knows what motivates you [recognition].

      • anon

        I have raised issues with this particular project and have been told, in no uncertain terms, that we are going to continue doing it the way we’re doing it. Even I think that it could be greatly simplified but that would require my bosses to make some tough decisions and tell people no. So maybe I have to start there.

        This coworker has never been known for having a filter, so I suppose I should take it with a grain of salt, but it’s kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back.

        • Anon

          It sounds like your coworker is right about the value of the project. I’d put the delivery aside and take it as helpful information – no one is using the thing you’re killing yourself over. I’d figure out how to work on a different thing for someone else, doing work that isn’t actually valued by your company is a path to nowhere. She maybe did you a big favor by being honest.

    • Monday

      I’m really sorry. That definitely hurts. You’re probably right that it’s time to leave.

      FWIW, you can earnestly make these replies the next time someone degrades your work like that. I can imagine saying “wow, that’s hard to hear. I’ve delayed vacations and lost sleep for that, and kept it running even when I was down X staff members.” If your voice shakes a bit, so be it. You’re not obligated to keep people comfortable when they openly insult your contributions to the organization.

      • anon

        She’s around the building today, so part of me thinks I should suck it up and tell her as much.

        • Monday

          I have done things like this, even in meetings in front of everyone. It sounds like in terms of this person at least, there’s not much to lose. I would make sure there is something to gain though. If she’s totally committed to her “no filter” persona (i.e. being rude) this may just up the ante.

        • Anon

          Why? She doesn’t care if you worked hard and frankly no one else does either. It’s the outcome that matters.

      • Vicky Austin

        “If your voice shakes a bit, so be it.” Tattooing this on my forehead.

    • anon a mouse

      Hey, that really stinks and your colleague was rude. I think it’s normal to want to know that your work matters – it’s what we spend a huge part of our lives doing! But she’s just one person with one opinion. Could you use this to speak with your boss about your effort on the project (or other work) compared with its value to the organization? If you’re stretching yourself thin (delaying vacations!!) for something that’s of marginal value to the company, that’s not only bad for you personally but it means that your many talents are being underutilized. Maybe there’s a different project that is a better fit for your organization’s mission and your skills?

    • No Face

      I agree with the other posters – your colleague was rude.

      I delayed vacations, lost sleep, powered through injury, etc at a job and it was so unappreciated. My new workplace is so wonderful. People treat each other with dignity, respect, and kindness. No one here would even let me miss a vacation for a project, and I don’t let anyone else either.

      You matter, your work matters, and it’s time to find a place that recognizes it!

    • Anon

      It sucks to be unappreciated, and I’m sorry. But I think the real issue is that you delayed vacations and stressed yourself out over a project that the org doesn’t seem to value. Create boundaries for yourself. No one is going to give you a work-life balance, you have to take it.

      • anon

        Thank you for sharing. A lot of this resonates. Very similar dynamics in my world (higher ed admin).

        • Anon

          You’re in higher ed? There’s no way you should you be expending this much energy over work! I’ve literally never heard of anyone delaying a vacation because of work stuff. Higher ed admin has a culture of mediocrity because it’s hard to get fired and there’s so little in the way of rewards for the top performer. If you want to be a go-getter and be rewarded for it, you’re in the wrong industry.

        • Monday

          +1 in health care. I wonder if the variation in responses to this post has to do with what fields people are in and what their org’s missions are.

      • Anon

        You all may appreciate that I sent this to my husband who works in arts administration and he’s all ‘oh, I know that guy! He worked in the organization next door:) Small world…

    • Anonymous

      Your colleague expressed her personal opinion in a rude and condescending way. You should ignore it. Any follow up directly with her will make you seem defensive and emotional. Is it possible that you are over invested in this project? Maybe not, but if you are delaying vacations and losing sleep, you should consider this.

      One of the challenges of work is the effort doesn’t matter as much as the results, so you’re at risk of feeling under appreciated sometimes when you put your everything into it. Sounds like you like your company, so I wouldn’t quit over this. But I would talk to your boss about your next project, and your motivation to do work that adds value. I would carefully pose a comment that although you know project X is important, you’re also eager to work on something more impactful, visible, positive change, etc.

      I wouldn’t give this coworker’s rude comment space in your head and allow it to stir up your emotions. Focus on what you want, move towards that, and let your companies response inform your next move.

    • Anonymous

      Have you spoken to your manager? If the project isn’t that valued by the organization then maybe you can get more wiggle room in the schedule. Or start pushing back hard and protect your free time.

      As a litigator, I’ve been caught in similar circumstances: the matter isn’t that valuable to the firm – maybe it’s insurance company rates or something – but some partner didn’t want to tell the client no, I get stuck doing the entire case by myself when usually a team of 5+ would handle that volume of work. Plus other partners still expect me to be available for other work because, after all, we don’t actually care about that matter you’re killing yourself for.

      I have moved firms over this. Not necessarily if it happens once – when I was more junior I would jump at any opportunity to try a case because the experience was invaluable to me – but if it’s a repeat occurrence then you have to protect your career by getting out. You can’t let yourself get pigeonholed into doing low value work no one else wants to do.

    • Anon

      I’m sorry, that seems frustrating. That’s just her opinion! Could it be worth exploring if that is the opinion of the powers that be? Maybe they think it’s super important! Or, maybe if it’s not that important then the deadlines are more flexible than you’ve been lead to believe. Maybe they don’t expect you to miss vacations over it. You could still do a great job managing a project that’s not the most important thing in the world with the added bonus of getting a better work-life balance.

      • anon

        The powers that be think it’s super important and have been willing to allocate resources to it. Is it having an actual impact, or do they just like the idea of it? Hard to say. But the deadlines really aren’t flexible, as they coincide with this other annual Thing that We Do. I know my previous boss struggled with managing this project and everything else, too. While I have made tweaks in the process, there are only so many ways to compress the timeline and effort required.

        • Anon

          Well I’d put their valuation of the project over hers. :) I’m sorry it sucks, no one wants to feel like they’re wasting their time. It sounds like you’re fed up with the project regardless. Maybe you can use your hard work as justification to move on to something new.

    • Anon

      I wouldn’t say anything to this person. Keep in mind it was only one person that said this, not your manager or a lot of other people! I would let it go, or maybe ask some other people like your manager and other coworkers to get their opinion of the project. If the consensus seems that no one does use it, then I would find out what needs to be improved/changed and work on that.

    • Anon

      Hugs, this is really hard. I feel your pain here. I recently came to a large milestone for a project that caused me a similar amount of stress. It’s been my main project for the better part of 18 months. It did not help the project was/is under a microscope with upper management but had little resources (aka just me). I took a week off of work as soon as I could because of that project. I kept my work phone in flight mode and kept my PC off. I mostly sat around my house reading books and took walks outside.
      Lots of great suggestions in this thread, but my two-cents, if you can I would try scheduling some time away from work to help recalibrate.

  5. Anon

    I’m a litigator looking to pivot to something different. I’m very interested in the work of a mediator but I don’t know how realistic it is to become one without being a former judge or having decades of experience and lots of connections. I know some in demand mediators have what seems like assistant mediators. Any idea how those jobs pay and whether that is a good step towards becoming a mediator?

    • Anon

      Not sure what your litigation background is in, but within our state government structure, there is a division of mediators who work with workers / employers to resolve contract negotiation disputes, and there’s a training program for folks interested. It’s not nearly as highly paid as litigation (or, I assume, mediation for private parties) but the folks who do it love it.

    • Anon

      What I’ve seen litigators do at firms I’ve been at is become a mediator and then use their business development efforts to market their mediation services, splitting their time between litigation and mediation until they have enough mediation business to sustain them entirely.

    • Anon

      Mediation is very hard to get into until you’re quite senior and have a big reputation. You don’t need to be a judge per se, but a well known practitioner is typically necessary. This isn’t a mid-career pivot.

      • Anonymous

        It depends on the type of mediation. In my observation pretty much anyone can become a family law mediator.

    • AIMS

      I think it’s possible but not necessarily quick or easy and may depend on where you’re located. In NY, at least, there are lots of mediation programs that you can volunteer for or be court appointed to do. This can then lead to full time mediation work if you are good at it and develop a reputation as such. But it’s not for everyone. You don’t say if you have any experience with this but it can quite tedious. Some people love it, some hate it. There are lots of CLEs with role playing exercises that you can try to get a sense of it.

      • Anon

        A good friend went this route and she loves it. It’s still very part time as she’s building up her reputation and clientele, but she was previously a solo practitioner so it’s more of a shift in practice area than an entirely new job/business.

    • No Face

      Another option to consider is a hearing officer for government agencies. These jobs are posted in my jurisdiction.

    • Anonymous

      There are mediators who charge $800/hour and there are mediators who earn maybe $30k annually. For the former you need to have been a judge, arbitrator, or extremely well connected attorney and is usually a retirement gig. In my experience there are a lot of people who want to mediate and you’ll need to bust your buns on business development. There are also service like FMCS that employ mediators which could be an option.

    • MJ

      I went to a full weekend program from the NYSBA in NYC a few years ago. It was all about how to mediate/arbitrate. Highly recommend. It was not expensive–maybe $350, for 16 hours of instruction. I did get the sense that some of the younger folks in the class were litigating AND mediating, because they had to make ends meet, but they were very interested in pivoting their careers toward where they could be meiators or arbs FT. Good luck.

  6. Anon

    Cross posting from the mom’s page to maybe capture some of the moms with older kids, or just anyone that played sports as a kid with some fond memories:

    I’m coaching my early elementary daughter’s basketball team this winter. First time coaching a kid sport.

    I have practice plans for the actual basketball activities and of course a snack plan. I’m trying to think of some of the “softer” elements I can add to make it fun. Any tips or ideas that you have done or seen done that can make the practice/game sessions a little “extra”? Like good ice breakers to learn names, silly songs that get the kids pumped, cute phrases to use to help describe some of the basics? Thanks!

    • Anon

      I am always a big fan of two truths and a lie, just b/c kids put hysterical amounts of energy into their lies.

      • Anon

        And I’ve equally always hated that game with a burning passion. I spend the whole time trying to come up with something to say and don’t even hear anything anyone else is saying. It’s not fun at all, just really stressful.

        • Anon

          I mean this kindly, but I’d try to save your stress for something else. Icebreakers are a fact of working life and life in general. It’s better to just know it’s a “thing” and come up with some “lie” you can reuse and realize no one’s paying that much attention to you. It’s one of things that if you can get past, it makes life a lot easier.

          • Anon

            Icebreakers are a fact of life for working adults, but I don’t see a need to force them on kids. The kids I know (even the outgoing ones) would hate this game.

          • Anon

            I get that. But I really don’t have this issue with any other icebreaker, and I’ve also heard this from a few other people and heard this mentioned in workshops on DEI, which is why I specifically called this out. Given that the point of icebreakers is to make people feel welcome and included, I think it makes sense to do ones that do that effectively.

          • Anon

            How hard is it to say “I have 7 toes on one foot” or “my mom lets me have sprite for breakfast”?

          • Anon

            But if you say something easy and stupid, why even bother playing? Maybe I just work with competitive people? I think I really just don’t understand the the point of this game which is why I find the whole thing a stupid waste of time and would rather skip icebreakers completely.

          • Anonymous

            The point of the game is to humanize your co-workers. I still remember more than a decade after we played the game that one of my co-workers had a job decorating cookies in high school. I do understand that there is a sizeable contingent among the commentariat here that does not approve of thinking of or treating co-workers as human beings, based on previous comments about how offensive it is to ask a co-worker how their weekend was.

          • Anon

            I fee like it’s been years since I’ve encountered an Icebreaker. Maybe they’re falling out of fashion?

          • Anon

            It’s for kids, right, not for grownups?

            Unless the kids are all in school together, I feel like its hard enough just getting them to know each other’s names.

          • Anon

            Yeah I’m not sure how old the kids are but if they’re 6 or 7, I think just learning each others names would be a win.

        • Cat

          I hate icebreakers too – and really hated them as a kid! – but as a kid in particular would be much less stressed if told in advance what the game would be so I could have practiced.

        • OP

          Gosh, I feel like this sub thread went off the rails. I really meant, like, everyone goes around and just says “my name is OP and I had waffles for breakfast” or something, and maybe the next person has to repeat what the prior kid said before saying their own to help with paying attention – but just hoping for any other ideas like that. Note to self not to do two truths and a lie.
          My young son did a sports team a couple of years ago that did almost none of that and at the end of the season he didn’t know like half the kid’s names still, and I feel like they are an age where the social development part of this is just as important as the sport. So I’m just trying to improve upon that!

          • OP

            (And before anyone jumps on me, I meant in the scenario above I would literally tell them to say what they had for breakfast, so it’s a factual thing they don’t have to think too hard about). But looking for anything more fun than that, I only use that example because I’ve seen it used a bunch of times already, if not I will stick to breakfast!

          • Anon

            OP, I’m the one who complained about two truths and a lie and it’s the lie part I hate (and maybe having to come up with three separate things). Maybe I’m boring, but I think regular old introductions with your name and one thing about yourself are just fine!

    • Anonymous

      I would drop the snacks. It is a huge pain for parents and is more trouble than it’s worth.

      Pregame and postgame rituals are fun. My daughter’s team used to stand in a circle, put their hands in the center, and chant. Put together a roster so parents know how to contact each other for carpools, etc. Put a parent in charge of arranging voluntary post-game meals or ice cream.

      • OP

        I hear you, but even though this is my first time coaching we have been in sports for a few years and the post game snack ritual is very prominent here. If one game gets forgotten all the kids notice. I don’t want to be the first coach these kids have that drops that ball!
        Thank you for the ritual suggestions!

    • Anon

      My early elementary son is about to do his first basketball team this winter, but from watching my daughter’s early soccer practices:

      – Focus on strengths. Each kid should get a multiple compliments to build their confidence. Point out why the short or slow or newer kids are necessary for the game just as much as you praise the big/ fast/ advanced ones.
      – Do lots of different types of movement to help build their body awareness and ball awareness. Even though they don’t use hands in soccer, one of the first grade activities was balancing the soccer ball on an orange cone as they ran around the field. I think it taught balance? Situational awareness? I don’t know but the kids loved it.
      – Have time for free play. Sharks and minnows against the coaches was a popular game in soccer. Also floor is lava, where cones are islands and they have to pass to their partner then run to an open island, and stop the ball when their partner passes it back.
      – Create a team cheer to start and end the practice. As simple as hands in the middle and “Go Tigers!” or as elaborate as “We’re gonna do our best and be better than the rest” while they sway in a circle.

      • anon

        Great ideas. I will say that my second-grader’s soccer team absolutely love floor is lava and have the goofiest cheer at the end of practice. The coach also gives them a pep talk at the end that highlight the areas where they’ve improved, or gave their best effort, etc. I really wish my coaches growing up had paid attention to that part!

      • Anonymous

        Huge +1 to focusing on strengths. And when you make corrections, tell them what you want them to do, not what you don’t want them to do. Then when they do the tiniest bit of what you have asked, praise very enthusiastically and ask for more of it.

      • OP

        Thank you! My kids love floor is lava in non sports settings, that is a great idea to incorporate into the practice.

    • Anon

      Back when I played rec elementary/middle school basketball (early 00s) my mom and my friend’s dad were the 2 coaches, and tbh I don’t remember anything like you describe. We only had 1 practice a week that was 1 or 1.5 hours on a weeknight and then 1 game on Saturday mornings so there really wasn’t much time for silly songs or anything?

      My mom is a middle school teacher and coach so I think she might have had some fun little phrases to describe some of the basics, but beyond that we had no sons, ice breakers, songs, or snacks at practices and our cheer was super basic (probably just like go blue). We weren’t a very serious team either – a bunch of us played school basketball in middle school but only 2 of the girls played in high school and none of us were playing travel or club.

      We always ended practice with a scrimmage, so that was plenty fun for us! Maybe we occasionally played knock out, but with such a short practice time there really isn’t time for the “extras”. If you have a fun, upbeat attitude that will be enough!

      • Anon

        Agree. We didn’t have time for songs or snacks in the 1 hour a week we had. There is a lot to learn in basketball to even be able to scrimmage properly (e.g., rules, basic strategy, passing, dribbling, shooting, pivot on only one foot, properly shooting a layup without travelling).

      • OP

        Agree. We didn’t have time for songs or snacks in the 1 hour a week we had. There is a lot to learn in basketball to even be able to scrimmage properly (e.g., rules, basic strategy, passing, dribbling, shooting, pivot on only one foot, properly shooting a layup without travelling).

        • Anon

          Have them say each other’s names as they pass the ball to each other. “Emma,” and pass to Emma. “Avery,” and pass to Avery.

          • Anon

            And I mean pass the ball like a real basketball pass – not like you’re playing Wonder Ball.

        • Anonymous

          I have had them play a game where they stand in a circle and pass the ball to each other while saying their own name, then once everyone has said her own name a few times they pass the ball to another kid while saying that kid’s name. If nothing else it helped me learn their names.

        • anon

          I think you should find ways to incorporate learning names and things into the drills. Like you have to shout the person’s name that you pass it to or something. Honestly the key to all of it at this age is to have them get some exercise and not feel bad about themselves and learn to play fair and be good winners and losers.

        • anon_needs_a_break

          how about a ritual where each player has to compliment someone on their team at the end of a game?

    • Anon

      My husband coached our kid’s basketball team last year. One thing he did that the kids seemed to enjoy was giving awards (Gatorade) after each game: most rebounds, most steals, and a coaches award (usually for good attitude or something similar). The idea was to recognize that there’s more to bball than scoring points. Everyone can contribute.

  7. anon

    Anyone else who works in a large US financial institution and is willing to share your company’s current WFH approach? My employer has allowed a massively flexible “hybrid” approach for corporate employees to date, but recently announced that they want people back in the office 3 days/week starting in the new year, except employees who are officially designated as remote. There is a lot of employee unhappiness, and I’m trying to gauge if we’re out of step with the market or not – honestly, what I’m hearing is that peer institutions are already requiring at least 3 days and many are being kind of strict about monitoring hours (which we are not planning to do); on the other hand, I hear rumors that some very large US banks have made their entire legal department remote. I’m managing a lot of team emotions around this (plus my own) and in communicating upward, it would be helpful to have a sense of whether everyone at similar companies is in the same boat or no.

    • anon

      And for context: my institution is a large US bank, headquartered in the midwest.

    • Anon

      Honestly, I don’t care about being in the office, but I hate the idea that you can just drop a call on my calendar at 7 (or really after 5). I have kids and they don’t cook their own dinner or drive to their activities or do math homework without the in-house re-teacher, so that time is my time. It ain’t your time just b/c I’m not using it to drive home from the office.

        • Anon

          One guy with a SAHW is notorious for this. No calls except at 8am on a Saturday or 5:30-8pm on weeknights. IDK what the dude does during the day during the week.

      • Anonymous

        I have a lot of banker friends so I’ve heard all about the dropping meetings on my calendar because the time isn’t blocked out therefore you’re available right?? I’m in a law firm and now some of the staff are starting to try to pull this. I hate it. I am always busy. Just pretend the calendar is always full. If you need something from me then you need to ask me to take time out of my work.

        • Cat

          I’ve taken to blocking my own calendar for chunks of time to get my real work done. Way too many “half hour drop ins” on short notice.

        • anon

          Right? Just because I don’t have a meeting scheduled doesn’t mean I’m available! I have to get my actual work done …

      • Anonymous

        My office is like this except 7 am not 7 pm. It is bonkers. Meetings at 7 am are bonkers. I don’t even wake up until 7 generally speaking. I do block 6:30-8 am because I am responsible for managing getting two small kids up and dressed and out the door by 7:50 which I can’t do while on a call. But even that doesn’t work when it’s the coo.

    • Anonny

      I’m in the legal department of a global financial institution that is headquarted on the east coast. Officially, the rule is 3 days a week in the office, but outside of headquarters, I don’t think that is being consistently followed. There is a lot of pressure from the top of the house to make employees go into the office, and managers are supposed to discipline employees who don’t consistently go in the office 3x/week.

      Employees are widely unhappy with this requirement, and we’ve lost multiple employees in the department to fully remote or more flexible roles. My commute is an hour each way, and I work long hours, so if I’m commuting in 3x/week, I miss out on a lot of time with my kids. I also think it is ridiculous for my role since everyone I work with is located in other offices, and when I go in, I rarely see another person. I’ve thought about leaving, but I’m paid very well, have a manager who is otherwise incredibly supportive, and love what I do. I’m hoping that the enforcement of the 3 day rule will result in greater attrition elsewhere that will force the firm to adapt and actually be flexible.

    • Anon

      I’m not in banking/financial services but my F50 company went from flexible hybrid to everybody in every Tues, Weds, Thurs at a minimum (I’m in person today against my wishes) with very little flexibility. People were really cranky when it was announced but since it’s been implemented I haven’t heard many complaints

    • Anon

      This is so disappointing to hear.

      I still wonder if “quiet quitting” is just “a return to what was normal in-office productivity” as employers force people back into offices for some reason.

      • Anonymous

        I hate the term quiet quitting. Why do we need a cutesy phrase to justify poor work ethic. Oh it’s not that I’m a bad/lazy/incompetent worker I’m just secretly quitting and it’s ok to not do a job after you’ve quit.

        • Anon

          I’ve seen people suggest “work to rule” (with the assumption that it’s not poor work ethic; it’s boundaries).

          • Anonymous

            I feel like gen Xers and older millennials got stuck with the worst of both worlds here. Our bosses expected constant availability when we were junior, so we were always working and stressed. Our idea of boundaries was like, I’m not going to cancel my vacation at the last minute for work that someone else can do, and, I am going to pick up my child from daycare on time and log on from home after. Now our subordinates are all about bOuNdaRiEs like, but I just got sportsball tix even though I’ve known about our deadline for weeks so I can’t work byeeeee. And we still get stuck doing all the work.

        • Anon

          I hate the term “quiet quitting” because it implies that not constantly going “above and beyond” at your job, or being available at the drop of a hat for whatever inanity your boss wants to drop on you, is somehow subpar performance. For everyone who has missed the memo: people don’t feel “grateful to have a job” any more. The majority of people working for you have real lives outside of work and do not live to work, they work to live. You can either get with the times and thrive, or stay stuck in the past and struggle. Up to you.

    • Anon

      Not a financial institution, but in corporate finance. Both my old and new companies are in the “one day a week, usually coordinated so we’re all there the same day” camp. Hiring and retaining financial analysts continues to be a struggle so this seems to be the best option for training and networking but appealing to those who don’t want to be in the office without a good reason. We’ve hired a lot of former banking analysts who are looking for more balance in that regard, so it seems like you’re probably in step with peers, but also peers are losing quite a bit of talent.

    • anon

      My son works at a large financial institution and the expectations seem to vary according to your location. He is expected to be in the office in SF on Tue, Wed and Thu, while his colleagues in NY are in the office every day.

    • Anon

      Not in finance or banking; in house in pharma. What I am seeing is that remote roles come with a rather steep decrease in salary: people either living in LCOL areas so it’s better than what they can get locally (my situation) or they eat the pay cut for the flexibility. The flip side is that people who are losing hybrid or remote flexibility are demanding, and seeing, much higher salaries.

      Something to consider. People may not leave for more flexibility but they may get more money. Alternately, if they are being paid at the top of the comp range, that’s the best deal they can get and in-office it is.

    • Anon

      Midwest finance and we have been back in the office since late 2020, although we now have flexibility to WFH ad hoc on a case-by-case basis. This means one predetermined day a week for some teams, maybe one floating day a month for others. For mine there is no official WFH schedule but we also can come in later or leave early as needed for appointments or childcare, as long as we are accessible and getting our work done.

    • Anon

      Here it’s one core day in the office, three days preferred but not enforced, and dress for your day – which means that if you have no external meetings, casual is ok.

    • anon

      I think Big Companies, certainly finance/banking/more conservative industries, generally want employees in the office. I think there are going to be a lot of corporate layoffs upcoming with the economy the way it’s going and will continue to go in to 2023, and therefore the power dynamic shifts back to the employer, so it can demand things even if it results in unhappiness.

    • Anon

      My large financial institution has the exact same policy as yours, 3 specified (by the company) days in the office except for designated fully remote jobs. I would think we work for the same company except mine is on the West Coast and not Midwest. People are unhappy but other large tech corporates in this area are also doing the 3 days a week thing, so it’s the norm.

    • Elle

      I worked in IB for most of my career. Former colleagues have moved to most of the American banks. It seems like 3+ days a week in office is the most common scenario. I recently interviewed with a southern regional bank and they were in office 3 days a week. I’m currently at a very very small bank in Utah and I’m fully WFH.

      • Anon

        In a global bank.

        20% to 30% in office somewhat flexible based on manager and team.

  8. Anon

    I have some Sorel boots that are like the Joan of Arctic (wedge bootie) but not as wintery (called “After Hours” and was in the NAS a few years ago). How are you wearing booties like this in 2022? Cropped / rolled jeans? I think I wore with bootcut jeans but was on WFH for 2 years and have forgotten how to wear clothes it seems. They are OK for my office now that I’m going back to it. Probably not with tights / dresses? Color is a medium gray (which now I regret — should have had black or a cognac color for 2022).

    • No Face

      These are cute! They look very versatile to me. I would absolutely wear those with tights and dresses. I will let other people talk about jeans.

    • Anon

      Cropped/rolled jeans, an ankle pant like the Athleta Brooklyn (wear tights under if it’s cold) and yes to tights & dresses if it’s the right dress. Like a sweater dress, or a chunky sweater / plaid skirt combo.

  9. Curious

    Stain help! I tripped yesterday and spilled a scattering of drops of turmeric tea on a beige carpet. Oxiclean did nothing to extract the yellow stain. What should I try next?

      • Anon

        You might want to try from Am*zon… it took a wine stain from four months prior out of a white couch…

        EMERGENCY STAIN Remover Spray – 4oz Couch Stain Remover for Clothes, Carpet, Sofa Upholstery, Fabric, Mattress – Instant Cleaner Works on Fresh or Set Food, Grass, Ink, Blood, Lipstick Stains

    • nuqotw

      I’ve had luck getting turmeric stains out of light colored dishes with dish soap? Over time, turmeric in clothing is vulnerable to sun bleaching; not sure if that would work for a carpet.

  10. Anon

    My boss is upset with me because I missed a meeting (for valid reasons) without telling him in advance. I let the meeting organizer know. Now that I know he wants to be notified in advance, I can do that, but I’m wondering if I was in the wrong here or if his request is unusual. I thought it was normal to just contact the meeting organizer when you have to miss a meeting.

    • Cat

      this totally depends on the purpose of the meeting and the ripple effects of you missing it – whether a lag time in knowing the next steps on a big project, missing out on tone or initial reactions to a tricky issue, or office politics.

    • Anon

      Generally speaking, I’d say you have your rules reversed – your default should be to tell your boss, not the meeting organizer.

      For example, I go to plenty of meetings with outside groups that are just “FYSA – this is what we’re all working on” meetings – the organizer wouldn’t give two hoots if I weren’t there, but my boss might care very much if he couldn’t make it and needed me to listen to see if X came up. But I suppose I could think of a time when you should tell the organizer, not your boss – like if you had signed up for the company holiday party decorating committee, but your boss had no part in it, then you should just tell the organizer and not your boss.

    • Anonymous

      It depends. If you’re a more junior person who was expected to attend for learning experience or to take notes then yes tell your boss. If you’re a more senior person who is attending to observe as an FYI and this is the 17th meeting-that-could’ve-been-an-email this week regarding this same thing that isn’t even important to your job then yeah I probably wouldn’t have told my boss.

    • anon

      Was your boss in this meeting too? If so, I would have notified him and the meeting organizer.

      Or does you boss want you to let him know for any meeting you’ll miss, regardless of whether or not he is in attendance? It so, then that seems over the top.

      I attend a lot of meetings, as does my boss. Unless I have to meet with him specifically he doesn’t care about my attendance at other meetings.

    • Anon

      I think it really depends on the context of the meeting and your role. Was your boss going to be at the meeting? Were you representing your team at the meeting? Were you supposed to update others with what you learned at the meeting? Tell your boss.

      In my case, my boss doesn’t attend any of my meetings, it’s for projects I’m leading, and I don’t need to update my team after. I wouldn’t tell my boss and she would think it was weird if I did tell her. But honestly, if something came up and I needed to miss a meeting, I wouldn’t be telling the organizer that I was missing. I would have told them that we need to reschedule because the meeting would have been pointless without me.

  11. Recs for lengthy books?

    I’ve decided that part of my plan for a cozy winter is that I want to read something lengthy and engrossing while wrapped in a blanket and sipping tea.
    Any books of the 600+ pages category that you’ve loved?
    I like page-turners that are well written, with a touch of romance, and main characters who aren’t wall-bangingly stupid. I would also consider memoirs or nonfiction too.

    • Anon

      A Discovery of Witches is kind of cheesy, but it fits this bill. For non-fiction, Massie’s biography of Cahterine the Great is fantastic.

    • Shelle

      Catherine the Great: Portrait of a Woman by Robert Massie. She led a really interesting life with many bold decisions and a series of lovers. Plus you can imagine Russian winters from the comfort of your blanket and tea!

      • Anon

        I loved this!

        Also the Neapolitan novels — I normally hate series but this reads like one very very long book.

      • Coach Laura

        Yes, I loved Catherine the Great. I should probably re-read… but – too little time, too many books.

    • ALT

      All of the Wolf Hall books are insanely long and all very good. I think the last book in the trilogy was something like 1000+ pages )on my iPad at least).

      Edward Rutherfurd also writes sweeping novels about cities and places through the centuries…they’re really good. I also like Ken Follet’s books (Pillar of the Earth series, the other one I’m blanking on right now).

      • Curious

        Oh, I loved the first Wolf Hall book. I should re-read and finish the series.

      • Anon

        Ken Follett’s Never was excellent and 800 pages. But the ending is DARK. Definitely not a happy book.

    • Anonymous

      Have you read Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell yet? It would be great for this!

      • Coach Laura

        I loved the Rose Code. Read it twice because I was so sad it was over.

      • Anon

        Cloud Cuckoo Land was extremely triggering for me and I wouldn’t call it cozy.

      • Curious

        Shantaram is also brutal in some ways (poverty, addiction), but I remember it ending very feel-good-ly. Which is not a word, but it’s Friday.

    • Anon8

      I thoroughly enjoyed Pachinko! Especially if you’re into multi-generational family sagas.

      • Anon

        I know we’re all supposed to like that book or else we’re stupid, but man what a slog.

    • Anne-on

      What genre? If you enjoy fantasy/sci-fi NK Jemisin’s broken earth series is amazingly good (and long, very very long). A Discovery of Witches, Jodi Taylor’s Time Police and St Mary’s series are also good.
      The Inspector Gamache series by Louise Perry is very cozy and wintery but will make you so, so hungry ;)

    • Vicky Austin

      I looooove this vibe. Second the rec for Anna Karenina, with the caveat that my dad and I have an inside joke about “never read Russian lit in winter!” and I stand by this for myself, but leaning into the desolate Russian vibe can be fun, so know thyself. Obviously this goes for Massie’s Catherine biography, or Nicholas & Alexandra if you want to get into the weeds with the Romanovs. Last year for my own reading in this vein, I read Juliet Barker’s biography of the Bronte sisters; it was dense for sure but so informative and interesting. I might have some more kicking around my Goodreads; I’ll post back.

      • Vicky Austin

        OK, I’m back!

        Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset. Set in 1300s Norway, takes you through the whole life of the title character.

        For fantasy with rich detail, The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern. The plot is underwhelming, but the wintry academia vibes are immaculate.

        Further dark academia: The Secret History by Donna Tartt, All Girls by Emily Layden

        Alice Munro’s short stories, often set in desolate wintry Canada.

        Classic authors that I like for this time of year: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell, Middlemarch, Wilkie Collins, Edith Wharton, all the Brontes, Dickens, Doctor Zhivago

        More highly readable nonfiction: Sister Queens by Julia Fox, Cleopatra: A Life by Stacy Schiff, also Blood Sisters by Sarah Gristwood though this one is a bit less readable (but very well researched!), The Secret History of Wonder Woman by Jill Lepore, Romantic Outlaws by Charlotte Gordon, Manderley Forever by Tatiana de Rosnay (actually I think this one is slightly fictionalized), Take Six Girls by Laura Thompson

        Family sagas you might like if you liked Pachinko: The Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, The Last Romantics by Tara Conklin, The Yokota Officers’ Club by Sarah Bird, And Ladies of the Club by Helen Hooven Santmeyer, Ask Again Yes by Mary Beth Keane

        honorable mention to Ruth Ware’s One by One, which is not long, but has great winter vibes and is an excellent, fast, brain popcorn type of read. Enjoy! :)

        • BlueAlma

          Co-sign Kristen Lavransdatter and Secret History. Also love Tartt’s The Goldfinch.

    • Anon

      Helen Dewitt’s the Last Samurai is a winter read for me. I forget exactly how long it is, but it’s long.

    • Recs for lengthy books?

      These are all fantastic- thank you!
      Pachinko was actually one of my favorite books of recent years and exactly the type of thing I was leaning towards, but the biographies also sound appealing.
      With all these recs, I’m almost excited for winter so I can hunker!

    • amberwitch

      How abour Guy Gavriel Kay? Historical fantasy (but very light on the fantasy part), long stories with interesting characters and a dash of romance.

    • Anononon

      I am so late in the day, but two non-fiction books I’ve loved are The Most Dangerous Book (about getting Ulysses published, censorship, women booksellers, and many hijinks – law nerds will be interested to learn that the court case saying Ulysses wasn’t smut and could therefore be published was once the most widely published court case ever because they used to print it inside the flap to keep the book from getting confiscated) and The Birth of the Pill (about the legalization of the birth control pill).

  12. Anon

    I work for a large company in the Houston area and at 8pm last night we got a message from my leadership that if we so choose we can wear an Astros shirt to work today, but no jerseys and NO JEANS. They won’t give raises or COLAs for inflation, but hey – maybe we can raise morale by allowing an Astros T Shirt but only if worn with slacks (which has to be one of the stupidest looking outfits).

    Also, Friday is the one day we’re allowed to WFH so about 85% of the company is remote today. Usually the people who are in on Fridays are there because they have some sort of important meeting and thus cannot wear a t shirt anyways. My team is (clearly) no jeans ever in any circumstance, but there are several teams at my company that wear jeans Monday-Thursday, so the company is clearly okay with jeans in some circumstances. Dress codes are by team and not company wide. My team’s dress code is no longer formal (pre pandemic it was “dress for your day” – a full suit if you had meetings and a non-matching blazer with pencil skirt or equivalent without meetings, but now we are more business casual).

    It just kills me that there’s a “dress down day” on a Friday and jeans are still verboten.

        • Anon

          My office went business casual in 1992. They brought in some company to do a fashion show as to what is business casual and what is not. At the end of the meeting one of the men said “so we still wear suits, just without a tie” and that was pretty much it.

          Women could wear dress pants and a nice twin set. Which was funny because we were all dressing that way already.

    • pugsnbourbon

      That’s really annoying. At my old job the state-level employees could wear jeans any day, but the campus-level employees could only wear them Fridays with something college-branded on top. I started wearing black jeans every day and no one cared. Who’s in charge of your team’s dress code? They seem like a stick in the mud.

      • Anon

        My team reports to a c-suite exec (who is the one who set the dress code), so I don’t see that changing. Black jeans would definitely not fly.

        I can’t complain too much – I know of a few teams who require suits 5 days a week still. The jeans teams are definitely more of the outliers in the company (IT, software devs, other “tech” jobs), most teams are elevated business casual like mine.

        To be honest, I wouldn’t even want a casual dress code! I personally have no desire to wear jeans to work all of the time and I do like getting dressed up for work, but I would loveeee casual Fridays.

    • anon

      As a general rule, the executives’ obsession with dress code is directly proportional to how outdated their management style is. If they’re this strict about jeans I suspect they also give limited promotions based exclusively on tenure, they’re rigid about WFH and butt-in-seat hours, any sort of change moves at a snail’s pace…

      Five years ago my friend’s office lifted the requirement that women wear pantyhose year round. They still had to wear pantyhose in the winter but management “generously” allowed bare legs during the summer. My friend quickly realized it was a terrible place to work all around.

        • Anon

          100 percent. Reminds me of the early days of business casual when the admins would send out the dress code rules that included “professional blouse on top” as required with jeans on the bottom. That was in the 2000s….your office is extremely outdated.

      • Anon

        My most recent former employer was still enforcing rules about piercings – one in each ear for women, and none for me. As soon as I no longer worked there, I went and got a second piercing in each ear, which I had never really wanted before, but F them!

      • Vicky Austin

        My workplace OK’d sneakers (such as Converse) on casual Fridays right before I got here, and yet somehow open toed shoes have always been fine. This baffles me, but we’re kinda in the South so maybe my idea that closed toed shoes are the most professional doesn’t hold water here?

        • Anon

          I’m the OP and I’ve always worn dressy sandals (flat or heeled) to work – even in our pre-pandemic dress code. I think open toe shoes in the summer are almost always fine except in business formal. Meanwhile, sneakers are commuting shoes and commuting shoes only at my job.

      • Anon

        Yep. We have some company leaders who have been able to adjust their thinking to adapt to the 21st century, and some people who are stuck in the Stone Age of office management and cannot get with the program. If you are in an organization that is still policing people’s attire to the level OP describes, the only solution is getting out to another organization. Because in lumbering zombie/dinosaur organizations like this, new leaders are almost exclusively selected from internal candidates who are chosen for their adherence to stupid and nonsensical company “traditions,” and because they will uphold “organizational values” like controlling employee behavior far past the point of reasonableness. It doesn’t have to be this way, and the smart people posting here almost certainly have options when it comes to where to work. Job openings are still at record highs so if you need to move, opportunities exist.

    • Aunt Jamesina

      I hate this nonsense. I once worked for a company that allowed jeans *once per year* if we met a certain metric (with a relatively high bar, so I think it was met about 50% of the time) and acted like it was such a fun and zany way to celebrate. It was so patronizing and I refused to participate. Slacks and team gear (if it’s not a jersey, you’re pretty much left with t-shirts and sweatshirts, no?) looks silly. It’s so out of step with the times.

    • Anon

      OP here: I honestly don’t mind my team’s dress code and actually like wearing work clothes. I wouldn’t say my team is overly rigid or old fashioned (moreso than many companies, for sure, but very in line with our industry).

      I just really hate that there’s a dress down day without jeans – it feels so stupid and a half @ss way to appease people.

  13. Anon

    Thanksgiving menus please…probably will have 8-12 people. Interested in trying new…anyone do stuffed pork loin? Other different mains instead of the Turkey? Please share!

    • Anon

      I’m seriously considering a skin-on pork roast (not instead of the turkey though; I feel that’s obligatory).

      • Deedee

        I’ve done both duck and Goose for Tgiving! I would have to say duck is the better option imo.

    • pugsnbourbon

      Pork loin sounds great. I do a Sides-Only Thanksgiving because turkey is meh to me.

      This is hands-down the best green bean casserole: https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/best-ever-green-bean-casserole-recipe-1950575

      These are the best rolls – start with 4c of flour and add more as you mix to get the ragged, soft consistency. Don’t forget the second rise: https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/food-network-kitchen/thanksgiving-rolls-recipe-2011597

      I also make an ungodly amount of cranberry sauce and eat it straight. Damn I love cranberry sauce.

    • Anon

      We’ve done braised short ribs for that size crowd on thanksgiving. Total hit and a lot easier than the traditional spread. Serve over mashed potatoes with a green salad and done.

    • anon

      I get food catered from a local Amish restaurant. My family doesn’t really care for turkey, so I get ham and roast beef for the meats.

    • Anon

      I loveee Turkey, but for Christmas my family does Turkey and prime rib (both of which I love it’s a great day) so maybe prime rib?

      • Anonymous

        We also do prime rib for Christmas and it’s a hit. Also oysters and crab soup for Christmas Eve dinner. Growing up when we went to my grandparents, who did not cook, a honeybaked ham was common (as was a bucket of KFC, because you know, southern).

    • anonshmanon

      Thanksgiving is not a tradition for me personally, but I LOVE gathering with nice people around a festive meal, so we’re hosting this year. Planning to make a roast goose with apple and dried plum filling as the main.

      • anon

        Prune filling? I hope you’re not staying with the poster below at MIL’s one bathroom house with nine other people.

        I kid…

      • Anon

        We do a goose for Christmas when we can get one. You’re prepared for the fat, right? Just making sure it’s not your first time doing goose when you have a bunch of hungry guests to feed.

        I love it, but it’s an undertaking.

    • Anon

      If you’re having 8-12 people and don’t serve turkey, some if not all of your guests will be upset. Serve a turkey.

      • anon

        Ehhh I’d ask the guests. Most people in my family are ambivalent towards turkey. If a couple of OP’s guests feel strongly then roast some turkey legs in addition to a non-turkey main (assuming she has the oven space)

      • Anon

        +1 I would be crushed to be at a Thanksgiving without turkey. My whole extended family really loves turkey – I was an adult before I learned some people don’t like it! We probably do a turkey dinner 3 times a year (Thanksgiving, Christmas and once just for fun)

      • Anon

        OP here…thx Turkey lover! 8-12 is a small group for us and we do different mains, not just one….. Looking for the hive’s ideas on different mains. Our people love tradition AND variety!

      • Senior Attorney

        OP here…thx Turkey lover! 8-12 is a small group for us and we do different mains, not just one….. Looking for the hive’s ideas on different mains. Our people love tradition AND variety!

      • Anon

        I’m the short ribs poster, my attitude is a little take it or leave it – you wanna host? Make turkey. You wanna relax and come to my house? Short ribs or whatever I’m making it is. I am clear that turkey isn’t on the menu though so expectations are set ahead of time.

        • Anon

          As long as you tell them in advance. Don’t spring no-turkey dinners on thanksgiving guests.

          • Anon

            “I am clear that turkey isn’t on the menu though so expectations are set ahead of time.”

    • Deedee

      I’m hosting Friendsgiving 5 days before I host Thanksgiving. I’ll do a real turkey for friends but I’m thinking I’ll do a pork roulade and a turkey roulade for actual thanksgiving. I just can’t deal with the idea of TWO leftover turkey carcasses in the fridge and my family doesn’t love turkey. Because we have some vegetarians, I strongly considered doing this pasta as a main: NYT Cheesy Baked Pumpkin Pasta with Kale

    • little baker mouse

      I’ve done porchetta before, very rich and succulent. For a Friendsgiving one year, I did a wild mushroom lasagna as the main because our group was mostly vegetarian. Another year I did duck carnitas tacos with two kinds of salsas and my friends brought the rice and beans. For a smaller group (like 4 people), I’ve done five-spice duck breasts with cherry-port sauce.

    • Anon

      I normally cook a turkey, but this would work really well. Bonus that it’s ridiculously easy and so delicious! I found it in an old cookbook written by a lady in a small town whom everyone had used to cater their parties back in the day when everybody had fancy parties at home. Everyone I’ve served it to has loved it. The meat falls apart like a beef roast, so do serve with mashed potatoes and (jarred) gravy. Super flavorful!

      2-4 lb pork shoulder butt
      1 small onion, sliced
      3 whole cloves
      5 whole black peppercorns
      2 cinnamon sticks

      ½ cup apricot preserves
      ½ tsp mustard
      ¼ tsp grated orange rind

      Place meat in large pot and add enough water to cover; add seasonings. Cover tightly, bring to a boil, then reduce to a simmer for 1½ hours. Remove meat and place on rack; cover with glaze and bake at 300° for 25 minutes. (The original calls for baking the glaze, but sometimes a quick broil’ll do ya just the same.)

  14. Clara

    I went on a first date yesterday and overall it went fine but one thing bothered me. I work in a fairly public-facing, statistics-heavy field. He has an engineering PhD but is working in the private sector now. He asked questions about my work and I was fine to answer, but then he started asking about the statistical significance of things, what was the margin of error – felt like I was getting grilled about my work, like I was presenting a paper at a conference or something. This felt like mansplaining to me, or maybe just annoying, but I am trying to figure out if I’m overreacting.

    I never really want to talk about work on a date, especially a first one. I don’t want to debate things ever. I get that based on his PhD and all that he’s going to be interested in the statistics behind it, but I also don’t remember these numbers off the top of my head.

      • Anon

        Agree

        I have dated engineers. I married one, briefly (mistake). This behavior is not unusual, I don’t know why. I’m an actuary. I’m well educated and trained and experienced in mathematical concepts. But the engineers always seemed like they needed to prove they were better than me at math, which they universally were not. They were also not more financially successful than me, another chip at their egos.

        • Formerly Lilly

          I went on a first and last date with an engineer who spent the better part of an hour explaining to me that if I just flowcharted and set up formulas for my law practice it would magically become easy and much more successful.

        • Anon

          I work with a lot of male engineers. I can count on one hand the ones that have even halfway-reasonable people skills, who can carry on a normal human conversation without resorting to one-upmanship, mansplaining, or general unpleasantness. I put up with it at work because I’m getting paid. There’s no way I would put up that kind of behavior from someone I was dating.

      • Anon

        This. Years ago, I went out on a date with a guy who was quizzing me about my knowledge about the Keystone Pipeline. Apparently, I didn’t know enough about it for him to even want to finish his drink.

      • Anonymous

        +1 He sounds like a pain. You owe him nothing, and that includes a second chance.

    • Anon

      Maybe he was just nervous and trying to ask about your work as a way to get to know you?

      • Anon

        +1 I love learning about people’s jobs! That said, I’m also fine with someone cutting it off by saying, “Oof! I like to leave work at work, let’s talk about X instead.”

        You had autonomy to change the subject!

    • Anon

      You don’t have to date anyone you don’t want to date. That said…

      He’s an engineering PhD “but” works in the private sector. That is quite common in engineering, and some companies pay quite a premium for doctorates.

      He may have been really excited to talk about the nerdy side of your job with you and gone about it badly. I have an engineering degree and have dated many engineers… what you are describing sounds like a typical first nerd date.

      But, again, you don’t have to date anyone you don’t want to date, so this is perspective only, not pressure.

      • anonshmanon

        yeah, could totally be this. But I could also see that he was trying to prove something to you, in some weird stereotypical way. If you decide to see him again, I’d just continue to collect data to determine which one it is.

      • Anon

        +1 I’m also an engineer married to another engineer. Trust your gut. But I agree this sounds familiar.
        I often have to tell my husband I don’t want to talk about work after work.

      • Anon

        Engineer married to another engineer. I’m guilty of asking about statistical significance and other such nerdery on dates pre-DH. This is because in my book, math is rad and interesting to talk about. He may not be your cup of tea, but I’d not automatically read I’ll intent from that alone. Geeks are geeks.

    • Anonymous

      If you didn’t like him then don’t go out with him again, you don’t need to justify your reasons. Look I give people a lot of grace on first dates. Maybe he’s a mansplainer or maybe he was nervous and struggling to make conversation and fell back on something he knows well. But if you really liked him would you be so focused on this potential negative?

    • Anon

      I think this is not the guy for you, but it doesn’t mean he’s a bad person. I would have been super into this- I like it when people are into my work and want to talk science with me. It’s certainly possible for that to get into mansplaining, but talking details and debating doesn’t inherently bother me. If anything, I wish my husband did that a little bit more (we both have STEM graduate degrees, but he’s more conflict avoidant than I am).

    • anon

      If it comes up again, I would tell him exactly what you said here. Work talk is just not fun or interesting on a date!

      • Anon

        Continuing to date this guy is exactly how women settle. They didn’t click. No second dates. He’s not a monster but he’s not her person. OP, don’t waste your time.

        • Anon

          No. Women don’t settle because they go on second dates; they settle because they go on fourth and fifth and 80th dates. Cutting it off after three dates, when it’s fine but not great, is common for a reason.

          • Anon

            Disagree. The flag is there from date one. More dates and you’re just convincing yourself he’s not that bad. And the excuses start. And then you’ve settled. Making excuses foe people is the path to settling.

          • Anon

            Hard disagree. No one needs a “good reason” to not go on another date with a person whose behavior they found off-putting. Maybe this guy is a great guy, but he needs to work on his social skills so that he doesn’t come across as pedantic or insufferable on dates. His behavioral deficiencies are not OP’s problem, and she has no obligation to go on another date with this person. Three dates is not any kind of rule and it’s not even a really good guideline, these days. That is some “The Rules” 1995-era B.S., if you ask me.

          • Anon

            Disagree with Anon at 12:48. Women (and men) can choose to not have a second date for whatever reason.

            But it’s a little ridiculous to call this a “flag” based solely on what OP posted, particularly after many engineers have chimed in that they do this sort of thing. Also you can just be not interested in something. Calling everything and anything a flag makes it harder for people to identify real red flags. Sort of how I feel like gen z has made the word toxic pretty meaningless

          • Anon

            Flags are indications someone isn’t a match for you. Not enjoying the conversation is the very definition of that.

    • anon

      Sounds like you guys didn’t click. When there’s a topic I don’t want to go into, I give a cursory answer and switch subjects. If they don’t pick up on the hint and keep prying then I agree it gets annoying because at that point they’re either obtuse or pushy, and that’s when I cut them loose.

    • Anonymous

      I would take it as a sincere effort on his part to engage with you. My husband has an engineering PhD and stuff like that is genuinely interesting to him – he watches math videos on YouTube for fun. (And he would be the first to admit he IS a bit of a knowitall, which I have learned to love and accept but it isn’t for everyone).

      • Clara

        This is what I was thinking – he came off as a knowitall but it did seem like it came from a good place. I’m not sure why I didn’t cut if off – He was sort of questioning my findings so I didn’t want to seem defensive I think.

        • anonshmanon

          Next time (with this or another guy), you can name what’s going on. “Hey, I feel like I am having to defend my work here! Let’s talk about this other topic.”

        • Anonymous

          I married an engineer.* We debate things all the time. Sometimes it’s a drag down to the mat debate that others might view as an argument. But to us it isn’t personal.

          That said…there’s a good chance if you didn’t like it/ felt grilled, he’s just not the guy for you.

          *engineer by training, now COO at a tech-ish company.

    • KJ

      I would trust your gut. You know the difference between someone being interested/curious and someone trying ‘test’ you.

    • Anon

      Next. Seriously, if you didn’t enjoy the conversation move on. That’s what first dates are for. Your partner in life will be someone you spend almost all your time talking to! It should be great.

    • anon

      He probably got excited that you have something in common and ran with it. Or he thought follow-up questions would demonstrate his interest in your work. Or he’s just nervous on first dates and wanted to avoid an awkward pause. Unless he explicitly criticized your work product I wouldn’t assume it’s mansplaining. If you don’t want to discuss your job on a date then just redirect the conversation, he’ll get the hint.

    • Anonymous

      I would do another date to feel it out more. DH has a Phd in a science field, I work in social sciences in a topic area that he is interested in – sometimes I have to dial him back a bit. It took a while for me to learn how to say ‘I get that you find this topic interesting but I’m tired of talking about work’ in a way that didn’t seem rude when he was genuinely interested.

      Your dude may be a mansplainer or he might not be but you might need a couple more dates to figure out the vibe.

    • Anonymous

      I married an engineer. I think he was trying to impress you/have something in common with you. I wouldn’t take offense. If you otherwise enjoyed yourself I’d give him another chance.

    • Anonymous

      The real question is what happens if you laugh and say “oh, gosh, I don’t have my exact p-values memorized–I like to leave that at the office” and try to move the conversation on. Does he give it up or persist?

  15. Not Quiet Quitting but . . .

    My approach to being told to return to the office 3 days per week is that I committed to myself that my commute time will reduce my actual hours worked rather than my non-work hours, since my hours were higher than ever during WFH. So far, I am sticking to it. Company’s loss, not mine! I am at a place career wise where this will not hurt me, but I recognize not everyone has this option.

    • PolyD

      I have to say, I subconsciously feel this way too. We are not really required to come in more than once a week, but I find myself considering the time to get myself presentable, organize my food for the day (our cafeteria hasn’t reopened) and getting to the office (about a 30 minute drive) to be part of my “work day.” It’s not entirely legit, but I’m doing the same amount of work I was doing prepandemic and at home, so no one seems to care.

      And fortunately my team and supervisor have always been pretty chill about “face time” – no one really cared when you were in the office as long as the work got done and your were responsive to emails – even before the pandemic.

    • Anon

      I’m completely on board with this and have noticed a lot of people doing this. We are full time in-office and the official office hours are 9:30 to 5:30. Pre-pandemic there were generally lots of people around from 8:30 to 7, though when any individual person was here varied. Now the office is a ghost town before 10 and after 5.

    • Senior Attorney

      *flicks cigarette lighter on, raises it overhead, waves it slowly from side to side*

  16. Anon

    Advice for working with remote newbies? I have a 1-mile commute in a SEUS city, so bought house with no home office b/c I expected to work in the office in Before Times and I’m in most days unless I need to meet a worker at home, etc. We had some newbies during COVID who were first-time workers after schooling and it was . . . Not Good. They really didn’t get working and responsiveness after many, many come-to-Jesus discussions (not just for me but for our department). We have more new people starting and I am trying to think about now to be better. Often, I sensed that they were multitasking when on calls (and yet,I am used to calls and hate camera-on zooms). They are encouraged to come in 2x/week but not required. Other than lucking into a person with horrid roommates who will actually come in, how can we do better with the next batch of new people? It has been so painful to manage green people remotely on a first job.

    • Cat

      Why not go in yourself and ask them each to pick a day for an in person weekly checkin?

        • Cat

          So… what about the second part of the suggestion? Encouraged 2x a week but never coming in isn’t exactly the spirit of the rule anyway.

          • Anon

            Agreed.

            And yet what can you do? I feel like if there is no office-wide or group-wide rule, an individual work-assignor can’t just mandate that people come in. It’s hard enough to get people not to obviously multitask on a camera-optional zoom.

    • Anon

      I’m not clear on your position in the organization, but for your team and/or for the broader organization, can you make a policy that newbies have to be in, say, 2 days per week for their first year with the org, then they can be fully remote? That gives you hands-on mentoring time.

      • Anonymous

        A year might be turn off for this new generation that expects 100% remote work right away, but I think 3-6 mos is pretty reasonable, let them know that coming in is required so we can talk about office culture, work expectations, and review some projects in depth, since it may be easier to discuss and brainstorm in person.

        OP, I hear you. I have noticed marked improvement in our junior staff once we brought them in for required in person days for about 3 months. There are some things in my job that just require literal hands-on training (we’re not law or finance), and once we got back to that, people started understanding concepts better and producing better work.

        • Anon

          I hate to sound like a boomer here (I’m 27) but maybe this is a good way to weed people out.

          I truly think in most circumstances, in most industries, being 100% remote was a blip that happened due to the pandemic and will not (and should not) be the norm moving forward. New grads should not be expecting full time remote work right out of college.

          I’m very much in favor of hybrid work, but full time remote works fine for some situations but in general isn’t a great way for most people and companies to be operating.

          • Sallyanne

            I agree particularly for new workers. Many spent 2 years doing school remote and actually don’t know how to work. They don’t understand office culture, mentoring or networking. While millennials may want WFH many Gen Zs are wanting to be in an office so they can learn—and they need people there to teach them.

    • Anon

      Honestly, I think they should be required to be in office a few days a week. Not sure if you’re able to advocate for that.

      I am 7 years into my career and started a new job during an “optional hybrid” period at my job late last year. My boss has 4 young kids and basically never set foot in the office until our mandated 3 days a week in office began this spring. My old job was essential work so I never was WFH during the pandemic. Being in a new environment, learning about a new job and a new company, and being onboarded and trained in this hybrid/remote environment did NOT work! I have been here almost a year and I am miserable because I still feel several steps behind (like my grandboss and I found out yesterday I don’t have access to a platform I need for my job. She just assumed I had it and I had never heard of the platform before so I didn’t know I was missing it).

      If a high performer with 7 years of work experience like me can’t figure it out, how the heck can a new grad?!

      I have a few friends who are managers in other companies and they all make their new grads come in after having a disastrous start with the 2020 and 2021 grads. These kids likely also never had in-person internships so the vast majority of them just do not get working norms, let alone how to do their jobs.

    • NYNY

      You need a formal onboarding plan. What are the expectations within 4 weeks of start date? 3 months? 6 months? Set expectations and have regular 1:1 meetings to check in on progress, share feedback on what has been done, and course correct as needed. If you’re not doing that, you aren’t really managing them. This has been a huge part of my journey managing people, because I started out with a well-seasoned team and didn’t understand what it takes to get them there.

      • Anon

        I will say that if I were going to be a manager of totally green office workers, it would not have been to start doing it when I had to WFG with two zoom-schooling kids who weren’t old enough to cook lunches or do their own tech support or keep up with things on auto-pilot (and then to get a puppy). But oddly, it didn’t get better once schools reopened and I was back on-site (like they just thought that the very relaxed rules of lock-down (basically: do the client-mandatory work and get paid and everything else is a nice-to-have) would continue forever). At least at my company.

  17. Anonymous

    PSA – Ally has a 4% 18-month CD right now. Regular savings is up to 2.5%.

    • height

      Thanks so much.

      I really appreciate when folks post their financial discovers/recs/outcomes here.

    • Anon

      No penalty CDs are 3.1%, if you don’t want to tie up your money for 18 months.

    • Senior Attorney

      That’s probably because they are trying to get customers back after a massive data breach during which nobody could get through to customer service for any reason for days, maybe weeks. I moved all my accounts away and I am never going back. Just a word of warning for those of you who want to be able to talk to a real person on the phone about your money.

      • Curious

        +1 for the Ally hate. The last time they did a deal like that, my money didn’t arrive within their absurdly short transfer timeline, and then it was locked in at a lower rate with no recourse. F that. I have 2.5% at American Express. I love Capital One, so will look into that 3%!

    • MJ

      I think T-bills are paying higher than that if you’re looking for somewhere to park your money.

    • Anon

      I didn’t realize that you can often get cds through your brokerage (mine is fidelity ) that are higher than those offered directly. I have a couple 6 mo cds at fidelity that are 4.6%

  18. Handicap Parking - Q

    I think I’m overthinking this. But I recall we’ve had some vigorous debates about use of dedicated parking spaces on this blog over the years and I may be missing something.

    I’m picking my Dad up from the airport this afternoon. Dad has mobility issues and has a state-issued handicap parking pass that he is bringing with him for his visit with me. I can park in the handicap space at the airport, right? Since the passenger I’m picking up is eligible to use it (I just won’t have the pass with me until we get back to the car?)

    • Anon

      You might get ticketed doing this. Morally you’re okay, but legally you’re not y til you have the tag.

      • Anonymous

        I agree morally okay, but legally you could get a ticket (anyone can lie and say they’re waiting on a disabled person with a pass).

    • Anon

      Morally and ethically, it’s fine, but your car may get towed if you don’t have the handicapped permit so I wouldn’t do it. Your dad could have mailed you the permit but there’s no time for that now.

    • Anonymous

      I actually wouldn’t do this, and my husband has had one of these passes for years. You are likely to get towed because the airport won’t know that a pass is coming.

      • Anon

        This. If he needs help getting through the airport, park where you normally would, help him to the pickup curb area, then you fetch the car.

    • Senior Attorney

      You are underthinking it. You need the pass or you will get ticketed or worse.

      • Anon

        Ticketing is a best case scenario. Many airports are aggressive about towing. You could park at a handicapped space at the mall for 30 minutes without a permit and probably get a ticket at worst. But airports are different. They take rules Very Seriously.

    • Anon

      It’s not ethically fine. She’s not handicapped and the handicapped passenger is arriving after she parks. She can pick him up at the kerb. The placard goes with the handicapped person, not with the intention.

      • Anonymous

        She can totally park in that space (with the tag) if her father is with her for at least part of the trip – he will be for that second part. She may need to park very close by because he can’t be left alone at the curb, or she can park there because he needs extra time loading that they can’t get if they park in a marked lane.

    • Anon

      OP here – well, shoot. Glad I asked. I cannot pick him up at the curb because he needs help navigating the airport and getting his bags. So I guess I’ll just hope for a close-ish, normal parking spot. Glad I checked, but kind of a bummer.

      • Anonymous

        You could always get him and his bags and deposit him in a bench in the pick up area and then bring the car around if you can’t get a close spot.

      • ALT

        Park your car wherever, go get dad and bags through the airport but leave him at the curb while you go get the car from parking and then get dad from the curb.

    • Anonymous

      Park your car in normal hourly parking or the cell phone waiting area and then drive to the curb and pick him up there when he arrives.

  19. Anon

    A vent for a minute. ILs have a teensy, tiny house (1200 sq ft, 1 bathroom), but MIL’s greatest dream in life is having her family all around, particularly for the holidays. ILs are pretty simple people from a small, rural town, and DH and BIL are the only ones in the extended family who’ve moved away, so MIL is often “alone” when her siblings have their kids and grands around. For the first time in the 6 years that I’ve been around (and maybe longer before that), both of MIL’s sons will be home for Thanksgiving. That would mean BIL, SIL, and their kiddo, and DH, me, and our two dogs. MIL’s been over the moon excited, chattering about baking cookies together and doing puzzles.

    This week, SIL decided she didn’t want to stay with ILs and instead wanted to get a $500/night AirBnb that all 7 of us plus dogs could stay in. Small-town MIL is flustered by the idea of having to pack up and cook in a foreign kitchen for the holiday, and though she wouldn’t say anything, hurt. For my part, I’m seriously peeved at SIL. If you didn’t want to stay there / thought it was too crowded / wasn’t your jam, you should have said something in late August when we all discussed this. (And $500/night for an AirBnb in BFE?!) Also, come the heck on – it will make MIL’s year, maybe decade, to have us all there tripping over each other – and it’s just 4 days. DH is trying to be the good diplomat and arrange a compromise; I’m just over here annoyed at SIL. /endrant

    • NYCer

      Can SIL and her family stay at the AirBnb, and your family can stay with your MIL at her house? I don’t blame you’re SIL for wanting to have more space though tbh.

      • anon

        Yeah, I’d say let SIL do her thing and you stay with the ILs. She doesn’t get to just decide for everyone!

      • Anon

        Agreed. It would be nice for you guys to stay with MIL. But I’m not sure why you’re judging SIL. Of course a family with a kid doesn’t want to stay in a tiny house with 4 other adults! And $500/night is really not a lot for an Airbn that comfortably houses 7 people. That would be three hotel rooms, so it’s the equivalent of an ~$170 hotel. Most people consider that pretty reasonable these days.

      • Anon

        Same. I’d be the SIL refusing to stay at crowded house. Nice of her to offer the space to you too.

      • Senior Attorney

        Yup. SIL only gets to make decisions for, at most, her immediate family.

    • Cat

      SIL and her husband and kid are welcome to stay in the Airbnb and come to the house during the day, is how I’d respond.

      (I get the issue. I live in a 1200sf house but it’s me and husband. Having another 4 adults, kid, and animals would be too much for the space for full time living, even for 4 nights. But unilaterally deciding everyone should go along with their plan? No.)

      • Cat

        Also – 1 bathroom for 7 people? With rich / unusual holiday food all around? lol. no.

        • Anon

          Right. As the former owner of a 1200 st ft 1 ba house, I would have been so relieved to have someone offer to stay in a hotel. Even 4 adults was too much at times (enter former FIL who liked to spend a good 30 min in the bathroom after breakfast)

    • anon

      Oooh, that was a big misstep from the SIL. And I feel bad for your MIL! My mom is a lot like your MIL, down to being from a small town, and would be so hurt if plans were unilaterally upended like that. Also … cooking Thanksgiving in a kitchen you’re not familiar with would be hugely stressful for me, and I have cooked a lot of Thanksgiving dinners over the years.

      • anonshmanon

        Wow, I think if SIL would be posting here, worried about spending 4 days in a cramped house, a plan that she was pressured into because MIL has been wanting this unrealistic thing for literally years, we’d tell her to get the airbnb. It’s unfortunate that the change is being made at short notice, but from OP’s description, it sounds like there was significant pressure to not deny poor MIL this. Also whether 5 or 7 people stay in it, $500/night seems totally reasonable.
        I too would let MIL cook in her own kitchen and celebrate at home.

        • Cat

          The issue is SIL decided unilaterally that all 3 households should spend the time together in a larger Airbnb, not that SIL decided that her own nuclear family would sleep in their own space… everyone on this thread is sympathetic to the desire to stay elsewhere, it’s the demands on others that are the issue!

          • Anon

            Was it a demand or a suggestion? Saying hey, I know you wanted everyone together, let’s rent a bigger house doesn’t make her seem like a horrible monster of a person.

          • Cat

            This line from the post – “This week, SIL decided she didn’t want to stay with ILs and instead wanted to get a $500/night AirBnb that all 7 of us plus dogs could stay in.”

            Sounds like it wasn’t floated gently or tactfully.

          • anonshmanon

            We are down to speculating here, but if MIL for years has been pining for everyone to be ‘under one roof for the holidays’, this was perhaps SIL’s attempt to fulfill that requirement. In-laws get upset all the time when families visit but stay in a hotel, so I am interpreting the suggestion in that context. But, who knows!

        • Anon

          She can get the Air BnB but what she can’t do is insist everyone join her there and split the cost.

          • Anon

            Was she demanding or insisting? It sounded to me like SIL wanted to get the Airbnb for herself, was inviting others to join, and OP got offended on behalf of MIL, who really wants to host.

        • anon

          Oh, believe me, I would not want to stay at the MIL’s house, either! But it sounds like the time to discuss this passed a LONG time ago.

          • Anon

            Eh, Thanksgiving is three weeks away. It’s not like she’s dipping out the night before she was due to arrive when MIL has washed all the sheets and gotten the house all ready for her arrival. It sounds like MIL really pressured everyone to stay in the house, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with initially succumbing to that pressure, and then standing up for yourself and saying it won’t work for your family. I think SIL is 100% in the right here, unless she’s insisting that people outside her nuclear family join her in the AirB&B and/or help pay for it.

    • Anon

      I would say let the SIL stay in an Airbnb but the rest of you can stick to the original plan!

    • Anon

      I live in a 1 bathroom small house in BFE and whole cozy holiday family time is great, FOUR DAYS with that many people in the house is not exactly feasible. Just logistically, the plumbing can’t handle that many showers and flushes without something breaking down. And over a holiday, emergency service calls in BFE are nonexistent.

      Is there a compromise with your SIL where the bnb can be the base for cleaning up and sleeping but your MIL can still cook and host the daytimes at her own place?

      • Former Southener

        OK – I am sorry but that is just silly.

        After my parents split up, we lived with her parents for years. Seven people – one bathroom and the shower and toilet worked just fine. My (Boomer) father was raised in a house with one bathroom and that at various points had 10-12 people living in it. In the 1950s the average house was 1000 square feet – for a family of 3.5 full time.

        American houses have gotten bigger while families have gotten smaller. And that is fine. But let’s not pretend that was matter of necessity rather than preference. (Or that our houses might be more affordable if they were still 1200 square feet like in the 60s but that is a whole other conversation.)

        • Anon

          Septic systems are built to handle a certain number of bedrooms, so it is theoretically possible that having that many people could cause issues. When you test septic systems before purchasing a house, the test is based on the size of the house. It seems unlikely that it would cause issues after only four days, though.

        • anon

          At one point having indoor plumbing was a preference not a necessity. That didn’t stop my last AirBnB with five people and one bathroom from being a miserable experience.

          You’re used to what you’re used to.

        • Anon

          We have three people and an old and quirky but mostly functional septic system. It works, although running a load of laundry while someone is showering and the dishwasher is going means the drains slow down (i.e., the bathtub starts filling up, since it’s the lowest drain in the house). If we tripled our household for four days, there would not be enough time in the day to do all the bathing, laundry, and holiday dishes that number of people would entail.

          And if my BIL were to have an epic toilet adventure on this four day adventure, this would all go to sh1t. Apparently with dogs involved, too.

    • Anon

      I echo the comments to let SIL + family stay in the Airbnb while you and DH stay at the ILs with them. I do really feel for your MIL.

      I come from simple city/suburban people and I had never heard of family staying at a hotel rather than a relative’s house until I came to this board and it still feels very odd to me. It may be crowded, but it’s family time at the holidays! Heck – my family pities my uncle who has a 3 BR house and 3 sons. His middle son’s wife grew up 20 mins away so they always stay at her family’s house when they’re in town and everyone thinks that’s a shame (rather than alternating, no one would suggest that they never stay with his wife’s family).

      • Seventh Sister

        This sounds a lot like my family. It took me years and years and years to feel OK with having relatives stay at a hotel or AirBnB when they visited me. And my MIL’s opinion of me as Heartless Career B*tch is at least 25% due to the fact that my parents usually stay in a hotel when they visit me and my parents don’t stay with MIL (who lives about 90 minutes from me in a hoarder house with no guest rooms).

    • anon

      Nine people sharing one bathroom is my version of torture. And I can’t imagine everyone gets an actual bed in this scenario. I don’t blame SIL for realizing how terrible this sounds and staying elsewhere.

      You don’t specify whether she booked the AirBnB or just floated the idea with you. If she booked it without checking then she’s wrong. If she’s just asking then no harm done. I agree that cooking in an unfamiliar kitchen sucks so SIL’s family can get their own hotel room, you can stay with MIL, and dinner is at MIL’s house.

      • anon

        Re-reading this I realized that SIL is asking MIL to stay at the AirBnB too, not just OP’s family. It’s a weird suggestion and I’d roll my eyes internally. But OP still has the ability to say no! As long as SIL didn’t book the AirBnB without confirming I don’t see the problem. I wouldn’t fulfill someone else’s Thanksgiving fantasy if it means seven people plus two dogs, one bathroom, and possibly sleeping on a couch for several days.

        • Anon

          I don’t think it’s weird, it sounds like she’s trying to honor MILs wish of having everyone under one roof while finding a bigger, more comfortable roof for the gang. I like this SILs style.

    • DeepSouth

      My mom loves having everyone around. She has a big house, but is a hoarder and is VERY particular about her things. My sister and I come in from out of town. My sister and her 4 adult kids and 3 grandkids stay with my mom. I just started getting an AirBNB. I sleep there, get up and have some space and another bathroom. It is so much less stressful for me/DH/daughter to have breathing room. The teen grandkids like hanging out in the airBNB at night for a while, and the extra, empty full wised fridge is great for Thanksgiving planning. Can you just sleep in the AirBNB and still spend time together at you MIL’s house?

      It works great for my family this way.

    • Anon

      Am I the only one that doesn’t know what BFE is? I would not be stoked about having a kid and that many people (plus two dogs!) crammed into a small house, but that’s just me. If they have a little kid or baby, the logistics of nap time and dogs jumping all over the kid sounds miserable. Even moreso if she’s breastfeeding and will have no privacy. I don’t think it’s weird for them to want to rent a house but also fine to say no thanks, we’ll stay with MIL, you guys do your thing. She may have been trying to suck it up but realized that yeah, it sounds very not fun.

    • Anonymous

      I mean you’re the one bringing two dogs to a crowded house instead of arranging boarding.

      • Anon

        Good luck over thanksgiving. And dogs are part of many people’s family. I wouldn’t board mine over a family holiday.

      • Anon

        Two things I have never done when visiting family, holiday season or not: gotten a hotel or boarded a dog. Neither of those options would ever occur to me and my family would be offended if I tried to do either.

        • Anon

          Congrats? It’s pretty normal to board dogs when visiting family, especially family who lives in a tiny house like this. I’ve never had problems finding a dog sitter over Thanksgiving.

    • Senior Attorney

      Honestly, though? Thinking it through a bit more I would happily contribute a bit of $ to the AirBNB for SIL’s family to stay in, just to relieve the crowding at MIL’s house. MIL and your family can stay at MIL’s, SIL and her family can stay at AirBNB, everybody gets a bit more privacy, there’s one more bathroom in the mix… priceless.

      • Anon

        There’s only one bathroom total! That’s why 7 people sharing this house is insane.

      • Anonymous

        I would not contribute to the AirBnB. SIL and her family can stay there and pay for it. OP and her family can stay with the in-laws. Totally separate decisions.

    • Anonymous

      I’m practically breaking out in hives at the thought of staying in a 1200 sq ft 1 BR house with 6 adults, 1 child, and 2 dogs for nearly an entire work week.

      Now, I would not have suggested that MIL vacate HER OWN HOME I mean ffs. I assume that was intended to be a compromise between mom wants everyone under one roof vs I will have a panic attack if I am surrounded by that much activity with no quiet place to escape. Is the property large enough to park an RV somewhere? They could rent an RV to stay in so they have their own space but they’re still on site.

      • Anon

        “I’m practically breaking out in hives at the thought of staying in a 1200 sq ft 1 BR house with 6 adults, 1 child, and 2 dogs for nearly an entire work week.”

        My neck actually started itching, the more I thought about this.

        I am the SIL in this situation. I am an introvert. I live in a big house with lots of space and I am used to that. My kid and husband are big people and we have big dogs, and as a family, we just take up space. Period. Cramming my family into a 1200-sf house with another family and my MIL sounds like the stuff of nightmares. Please, just let me rent the AirBNB! Let me have my own bedroom and bathroom and a space where I can go and recover from introvert overload. I would have no problem going to MIL’s 1200 sf crackerbox for the meal, but there is NO WAY I am staying in that house for four days, with all those people. Nuh-uh.

        • Anonymous

          Ha. I would call your big suburban house full of basic white people the “crackerbox.”

          • Anon

            Look at you, getting all upset over someone saying something about the square footage of a house (like – say what????) and then proceeding to make a bunch of assumptions about the commenter’s family, and THEN making a (what you clearly thought was witty) declarative statement about it! Do you find life in general super-triggering? Or just relatively innocuous conversations about the square-footage of someone’s home? Either way – lmao!

    • An.On.

      Yeah, I feel like SIL tried to cut the baby by having everyone together, just in a larger, more comfortable space, and now no one is happy. I feel bad for her; I also wouldn’t really want to cram myself, my husband, and my child in a tiny house with four in-laws and and two dogs for four days. And Thanksgiving is still three weeks away, so they were probably trying to balance giving everyone enough notice, while also making a decision based on the most up to date info. I don’t know how old their kid is, but sometimes I feel like I can only predict a week in advance what will work for mine. I’m sorry you’re being put-out by it, but I agree with the other suggestions to live and let live and I would also urge you to try to be more empathetic.

      • Anon

        I agree with all this. Surprised people think three weeks notice s last minute. It’s very different than springing this on people a couple days before the holiday.

    • Former Southener

      The compromise is telling SIL that she can do what she wants (with a strong dose of “it would have been nice if you had raised this before”) but you are going to stay with MIL as promised.

      I am sympathetic to her concerns but less than a month before it not the time for her to decide that you need to help her pay for her family to stay in an Airbnb – not to mention the MIL’s (understandably) hurt feelings.

      But then I spent the summers with my grandmother in her old farmhouse – which had been built before indoor plumbing and which had one bathroom. Including me it was 10 people and we managed. And I lived in a house with 7 people and one bathroom until I was 7. The modern idea that we need a bathroom for every 2 or 3 people is just that – an incredibly privileged modern idea.

    • anon_needs_a_break

      Team SIL, honestly. She seems to be the smartest of the bunch.

  20. Anon

    Do any of you on antidepressants get a higher dose in winter when the days are shorter? Is that a thing? I’ve been feeling off my game for the last 3-4 weeks, and I’m wondering if I should ask for a seasonal dosage increase.

    • winter

      Not usually. Most of the time you should be on a dose that is constant year round. But you are probably aware that Seasonal Affective Disorder (drop in mood in the dark wintery months) is real, and you could have some of that on top of your typical mood issues. So You could try getting a happy light from Costco, try to get enough sleep (!!! ha ha ha ha) and see if that helps – using it every morning while you have coffee/breakfast. I would definitely mention it to your psychiatrist though at your next appointment, or sooner if you really feel bad and the light doesn’t help.

  21. Anon

    White elephant gift suggestions? This is for a group who enjoys a joke. Last year two of the most wanted gifts were a Golden Girls mug with Bernie Sanders photoshopped into the group and the weed cookie cutter + Snoop Dogg cookbook (my contribution).

    $25 is the limit, no gift cards

  22. Anon

    Apartment renter with the neighbor puppy update (recap: live in 2 story apt complex, person below got a 16 week goldendoodle puppy 12 days ago and dog barks and cries incessantly when neighbor leaves, question last week was about what noise is okay and which is a problem).

    Though I hate conflict, I took everyone’s advice and I went to talk to her on Monday after her dog barked 17 hrs on Sunday. Turns out she got the pup Sat night and then crated it home while she went to tailgate, game, and bar the next morning. Told her how numerous neighbors had tried to knock and were upset. She apologized, gave me her number to text if it happens again. I lent her my white noise machine to try to help. Dog barked most of Monday. I texted, she told me to give her grace and patience. Dog barked 30+ mins before 6am every morning as well as through most of the day Tues when I texted and she did not respond, then Wed and Thurs. and I didn’t bother to text as she didn’t seem to care. Maintenance was here for work and heard it. Fri again. Sat I called the office and they heard dog through phone and said maintenance told them he heard it too. Sunday when the dog started before 7am, I texted. so 3rd total text in a week. She texted back to “contact the office if I have a problem, to stop harassing her.” I did not respond. She put my white noise machine on my porch that day. The office served a 7 day to cure on 11-1. Office told me to let them know if I hear the dog again.

    Since, the dog has barked every morning at 5:45-6:15 (I think when she showers) then again when she leaves for work for 12 or so hours. Literally every single morning, then all day, then sometimes in the evenings (I assume she is going out those nights). I have followed instructions and emailed to document.

    Today she sent a text that she will be training the dog 12-1pm and 5-7pm on Mondays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays from now on so to expect the barking during that time. I did not respond.

    On one hand, I get that puppies are puppies. I don’t think she is a horrible person overall. On the other hand, she has 2 buildings of neighbors awake from 5:45am until sometimes after midnight and through the work day. Her training idea is not consistent and is still prioritizing her own schedule over the dog.

    The 7 day notice to cure ends on Tuesday. What happens then? I really like my home, do not want to move, and would have to spend more to live elsewhere. I don’t want to be forced out. I also cannot live like this; the air conditioning, fans, white noise, and a calming app are all being run overnight and it’s still so loud it wakes me. Work can hear the dog over zoom and phone when I unmute and I have been reprimanded for not working from a quiet place as required. (I am WFH indefinitely.) I do not know my neighbors to try to gather people, but when I called animal control to ask for ideas, they said they had gotten calls about the address and mailed a notice of noise ordinances to her. Neighbor also blocked her front door area with furniture after finding out neighbors have been knocking to talk about the dog noise and office said they told her numerous in the building plus multiple staff have heard this and spoken up, so she is not unaware.

    Any ideas or thoughts is appreciated, I am so tired from lack of sleep here that I can’t tell what is realistic and what is emotional.

    • Anon

      Let your apartment office handle this, do not contact her directly again. Call the office each and every time the dog barks. 5:45 am. All day each weekday. Don’t let the office let it slide. That’s all you can do.

      That poor dog is being mistreated. I’m so sorry.

    • PolyD

      I just want to confirm that this sounds like hell (and why I would be VERY HAPPY to live in a building that doesn’t allow dogs).

      I agree with the comment above that all you can do is let the office know, and keep in them to do something about it. It depends on your office, but if your work says something again about the noise, I might let them know that you have a nuisance neighbor and the rental office is working to try to resolve the situation – it’s really not fair to blame you for your neighbor’s loud dog.

      Again, this really sounds terrible, but lack of sleep is probably making you feel a little more emotional about it – I know when I am very tired, my emotions get very volatile. This doesn’t mean you don’t deserve to be really upset about the situation, but give yourself a little grace that you are dealing with something difficult.

    • anon

      I am really really disappointed in animal control.

      I had a similar situation in a townhouse setup where the units were kind of nested together and it was miserable. The woman was home all the time, the dogs were adults, I worked at home, so parts of the situation differed. In this case — I feel for you but this dog needs a better advocate as well.

    • Anonymous

      I wonder if you can demand the landlord pay for alternative temporary housing for you, maybe put you up in a vacant unit. If your apartment was uninhabitable due to a leak or something, they would have to move you until it’s fixed, right? Sounds like your apartment is uninhabitable to me. Idk if your own renters insurance might help here?

    • Senior Attorney

      Wait… who was served with the 7 day notice? You or her? If it was you, I don’t know what to tell you — was the neighbor contending you were harassing her? If so, you seem to have “cured” that so you should be good. If it was served on her, she obviously hasn’t cured the dog parking so at that point the landlord should initiate eviction proceedings on her.

    • Anonymous

      I think all you can do is wait out the 7 days.

      I’ve had dogs. This woman is causing her own problems/shouldn’t have a dog (at least not a puppy!). You are doing nothing wrong other than trying too hard to be kind. She’s wrong.

      • Panda Bear

        +1 She does not sound like a responsible dog owner. Poor puppy (though I absolutely feel for as well, OP).

    • Anonymous

      Oh- as for an idea, how about treating yourself to a hotel for a night? It could really help you to get a good night’s sleep and have a quiet morning.

    • No Problem

      I mean, what are the consequences of the notice to cure? If the dog keeps barking after that, can the rental office evict her (or alternatively make her rehome the dog)? Or are there other steps to happen before that? If the answer is eviction/dog removal, then just keep contacting the rental office every time the dog barks and hold on until Tuesday.

      You could also call animal control again and ask what the next steps are now that she’s been notified of the noise ordinances and continues to violate them. Ask whether they can initiate a removal or get the police involved to issue her tickets/fines (getting the police involved is obviously less than ideal, but it may be required in your jurisdiction depending on the relationship between animal control and the local police department).

      Tell work to stuff it. You could also ask them to buy you a headset with a better mic that only pics up the sound of your voice, but in general I would just tell them to stuff it.

      • anon

        If you’re talking to animal control make it clear how the neighbor is failing to care for her dog (leaving a young puppy alone for 12 hours with no walks). The noise alone is a big problem but she’s also unfit to care for an animal.

    • Anon

      I would not engage with the neighbor, this is why the building management is in place. Keep informing them every day [one message in the a.m., one in the p.m.] that the noise is still unbearable and it is impacting your quality of life and putting your job at risk. They should fire the tenant after the “cure” period is over and there is no change.
      Why would you be moving? You are not the problem. Your neighbor who got a dog and cannot manage it is making lives of 2 buildings miserable. She is the one who needs to move or move the dog out. For the dog’s sake, I hope she will give it up for adoption so that the dog can get better owners, who will give him time, training and affection.
      Keep communication flowing with the building management.

    • pugsnbourbon

      I think I commented that your expectations were out of whack and I stand corrected. With this extra context, I’m confident in saying that your neighbor is a gold-star assh0le. In her shoes, I can’t imagine doing anything other than being completely mortified and using PTO/$$ to solve this (staying home to get pup acclimated, boarding training, etc). A puppy is not compatible with 12-hour workdays and a busy social life.

    • Anonymous

      Do not engage with her. Do not text her. Do not answer if she text you.
      All contact through office.

    • Curious

      Oh, OP, poor you, and that poor puppy. What a sad and lonely experience and also physically just not okay. Ugh this is so upsetting.

    • Anon

      You’re not being unreasonable. I agree with everyone else: no more contact with the dog owner; it’s getting you nowhere. I would continue calling your landlord and continue calling animal control. I would consider posting on social media, publicly, for each entity if you feel comfortable doing that. I would also consider getting in contact with your local Humane Society. Our Humane Society has an “intervention team” that will go try to talk to owners of dogs that are being neglected (in our area, complaints are usually about dogs that are permanently chained outside, which is actually against city ordinance). They are sometimes successful in getting the owner to surrender the dog to them.

      I am sorry this is happening to you. I would be livid. I know you should not have to do this, but could you move into an extended-stay hotel for a few nights, so you can work in quiet and get some relief? Having been through tough situations with neighbors before, generally right when you think it cannot get any worse, it gets better because the neighbor has experienced enough pressure to stop whatever’s happening. This woman is obviously not emotionally invested in the dog or she wouldn’t be acting like this. It likely won’t take much more time before she surrenders the animal vs. continuing to deal with the hassle (which – poor pupper dog – but he/she deserves a better home and a better owner than this).

    • Saguaro

      Oh I feel for you, and also that poor puppy! Until this is resolved, might I suggest Mack’s silicone earplugs? They won’t block everything out but they will help at least a bit.

  23. Anon

    I am normally someone who believes in not a single Christmas thing until after Thanksgiving but man – this year part of me really wants to decorate and break out the Christmas music. I am trying to have restraint!

    I don’t want to give into my urges just yet because it is unseasonably warm and I want to enjoy that and also because I don’t want to “ruin” Christmas by getting it all out of my system too early!

    I also really like Thanksgiving and the fall and don’t want to rush those. Work has been busy (in a job I really don’t care for) and I am getting over COVID (and had to cancel a weekend getaway last weekend due to the COVID) so I think I just need something to look forward to! Any ideas?

    • Anon

      I’ve been doing a little Christmas shopping, anticipating supply chain shortages on most wanted items, but will not decorate or listen to Christmas music until after Thanksgiving or my Son’s birthday, whichever comes last. That’s the family deal.

      How about taking up a knitting project and watching Christmas movies? Or getting a jigsaw puzzle and some peppermint hot chocolate?

    • PolyD

      Maybe the week before Thanksgiving or so, start putting out a few Christmas thing? Like not the tree, but maybe a wreath or some small holiday tchotchkes on the mantle or bookcase or whatever?

      I personally like decorating in smaller increments. The tree doesn’t go up until early December, but I might put a few things out over the Thanksgiving weekend.

    • No Face

      You are not the only one. I went to Target and Christmas decorations were front and center.

    • No Problem

      Can you really lean into fall for the next two-three weeks, and make a fall hit list of things to do? It’s less than three weeks until Thanksgiving. Go for a short hike if you’re feeling well enough, or a drive to see fall colors if not. Get some pumpkin or other fall/winter beer, or apple cider. Bake something with apples or pumpkin. Get another wear out of your warmer/middle season clothes before you open the sweater drawer. Eat outside one or two more times while the weather allows it.

      I also like the other poster’s idea of starting your shopping if you really want to do something Christmassy, but you can also make your own wish list! Inventory your stuff to figure out what you will need or want for Christmas and winter (clothes, decor, cooking/baking supplies, etc.).

  24. Anon

    Here is a question:

    I need to hire a junior attorney (I am pretty senior, this person would just do work for me). I do sort of esoteric work that I think you learn best in-person and I am willing to be in-person 9-4 each day but work remotely later in the day and as needed flexibly. Clients work 7am-7pm, but never on weekends or federal holidays.

    AITA for advertising this as a solely in-person job? I really do not want to have a person in there who will chafe at that and want to be honest (and I think it will just work better for them learning; I would not care with a competent 5th year, but she isn’t coming back from maternity leave, or even a junior person who was competent in this area and able to be more independent and responsive and proactive). FWIW, this person would be able to become very independent and autonomous relatively quickly if they could just learn the work and the business, so a much better flight path than a lot of law jobs (this is in BigLaw, but the lifestyle is much better than many other places I’ve been).

    Prior person was trained from scratch obviously in-person and IMO that went really well. Managing more junior remote people during her leave has given me opinions about how to go forward.

    • Senior Attorney

      Of course not. You’ve seen people post on here that they really miss going to the office. Post the job and see what happens!

    • Anonymous

      If it is true, I would advertise the role as in person with the possibility of remote work after X amount of time.

    • Anon

      Huh? You advertise this as in person and give flexibility later. Yes this is the correct way to do things, rather than advertise that which you are unwilling to give or would lead people to negotiate for more than you are comfortable with.

    • Anon

      Is it in person long term or just for training and ramping up, with remote or hybrid possible after 90 days or whatever? You can always adjust the listing if you don’t get much interest however you advertise it to start with.

    • anon

      It’s not about being TA, it’s just about job expectations. Set them clearly in the ad (including whether this is in-person for the first year with potential for flexibility as the person becomes independent), see what you get in terms of applicants, and adjust as needed.

    • South American girl

      Big Law with set hours, no weekends and in person? Where can I send my resume?

  25. Anon

    I was the OP of some of the dating posts brought up (married guy with 2 preteen girls). I think someone else was posting at the same time something similar so I think there were at least 2 of us. (That actually helped me to feel less alone.) While some of you thought I was a tr0ll and that felt like an attack, I was genuinely trying to think from different angles to try to sort out my emotional tie to the person, my obligation as a “Team Women” to the wife, and my sense of responsibility to the kids involved. And at some point, I was in love with him and he was saying he was in love with me and talking about where he would propose, our wedding, how we would decorate our home, etc. I was single for years, wanting that, in the middle of covid, and I fell hard. While I understand that many marrieds felt triggered by an affair post (I would have been too), I hope we all do better at remembering most here are not tr0lls but people trying to process or work through something or those desperate for an answer that means their heart doesn’t have to break.

    As for what ended up happening, the wife became aware and called to yell, then told me she was filing and I could have him. The guy and I began looking for an apartment together. Then wife said she did not want him to move on happily if she was going to be miserable and alone and threatened to go for sole custody. Guy tried to go back but relationship didn’t end as he then asked for therapy for the family “to sort out the divorce in a healthy way.” I went to stay with him in a hotel for almost a month. Plans to live together continued. I gave up my apartment and furniture to move to him. Then in a very short amount of time, I found out he’d cheated on me with 2 other people and tried with some others and then wife found out I’d been living with him in the hotel and told kids and extended family about me. She told him no one would ever accept our relationship even after divorce. Before I could process his behaviors, he asked if I had a way to get them to accept me, otherwise we needed to end things. I said I had no and he told me he would always love me and ended the video call, then blocked me on social media. I had to move in with family to save up money to rebuild my life since I’d given up so much for this moving plan and no longer had a home or furniture or whatnot.

    I was gutted for a while and also realize that he is not a good person; he is incapable of honesty, he hurt everyone, he was back on tinder and messing with work colleagues even while making plans and promises with me (so it wasn’t this epic love story like he’d sold and I whole-heartedly bought), and I think he is still in the toxic marriage with the kids now knowing mom didn’t leave and dad had an entire life going on for many months with someone else. I’m sure he is still on tinder and/or playing in the workplace. I’ve been in therapy ever since and am working on myself and my growth and how to not give into the brain chemistry joy of being loved when it’s not by someone who is good and kind and available and such. Haven’t met anyone worth dating yet and still struggle with some lonely moments and some memory flashbacks of happy times with him. But I realize it never would have been successful and I’m grateful he cut contact as I don’t know how much longer I would have stayed, if I’d have ended up helping to pay his child support while being cheated on and lied to.

    I’m not a bad person though; I’m actually even someone who has been here a long time and who has met some of you and gotten praises by some of you for other posts over the years. I have even been able to give some advice based on this experience which OPs have said was helpful. While I will never again engage with someone who can’t show me proof of divorce, I am also more mindful of never calling anyone a tr0ll because so many of us are struggling and trying over and over, not to cause mess here but to get guidance or support because they may lack it in their IRL lives and because they are desperately hoping another perspective will give them a way to not have to be heartbroken by something they are living through.

    I am so sorry for all of the people here whom I triggered, please know I never meant to be hurtful to you, I was just desperate to try to find someone who could figure out how I wasn’t a terrible person and how I could get what I thought was my happily ever after.

    • Panda Bear

      Ugh, the whole thing sounds awful. I can understand folks giving you a hard time about being with a married man, but he’s the one who lied to you, his family, and apparently a bunch of other people! Hope things get better for you.

    • Anon

      Oh wow, I am so sorry that happened. That sounds awful. I do understand what you are saying too about people saying you were a troll – when I see posts like that, they always seem presumptuous to me. Anyway, I hope you are in a better place now and things start to look up for you!

    • OP sort of

      Um, I posted that yesterday, someone else copied pasted it here today. I don’t know why.

      To answer from yesterday, yes, I DO know that everyone was telling me how this would turn out, I was not honest in trying to get other angles. I was desperately in love being gaslit by someone and had really awful self-esteem while also living in a covid world as an almost 40 year old fearing a life alone. I own all of that. It’s why I’m 6+months in therapy and not dating while I sort this out for myself as well as not owning the guy’s horrific behavior to so many people.

      As for triggering, some said it was reminding them of being cheated on, which is why I was apologizing for that because my desperation for someone to come up with an idea of how this would be the big love story I wanted, I was hurting people by talking about this.

      I know I did a bad thing, I know I contributed to hurting people. I was updating because some asked what happened in that story and also letting everyone know that I am done with that mess and working really hard in therapy.

      I have no idea why someone reposted this today.

    • Anonymous

      I’m glad you’re in therapy and working on yourself. The kind of desperation you’re describing doesn’t happen in a vacuum. There were many, many opportunities for you to have a lightbulb moment and get yourself out of this. Allowing yourself to become so consumed with your own emptiness that you ignore the red flags and the people you’re hurting… that is not indicative of a mentally healthy person. I hope you’re able to heal so this kind of behavior doesn’t come out some other way.

    • Anon

      I remember your posts. I never thought you were a troll. I felt very sad for you because it was clear you were desperate for someone to give you positive feedback and echo your hope that this all might work out in the end. I just couldn’t see how it was possible, even if some of the really dubious assertions were true (like the wife never cared for the husband, had children for her own sake, and knew they were in an open relationship but on his side only). I am so sorry you were scammed. I wish this was a unique story but likely nearly every one of us has been in an abusive manipulative relationship with friends telling us to flee while we survived on hope and fantasy. I do wish some of the responses to you were more empathetic. I think you are right that people felt triggered because of the family, otherwise you would have received more sympathy. What you went through is not very different from a domestic abuse situation which is in part usually enabled by the victim’s low self esteem. I’m glad to hear you are in therapy to work through this and I wish you the best of luck in finding your love story without the drama.

    • anon

      Glad you’re reflecting on what happened and getting therapy. Commenters were blunt and piled on become this outcome was inevitable. It was always a no-win situation. That being said, if you’re in a dark place it’s easy to latch onto the affection and internally justify the affair. Therapy will help you resolve whatever self esteem or depression issues that brought you to this place. It was wrong and I don’t condone your actions but FWIW this guy’s marriage would’ve imploded with or without you.

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