Coffee Break: Grommet Flat

94 Comments

1. I really like these shoes, and my AGL heels are some of the most comfortable shoes I own. But I still can’t bring myself to spend $150 on red, suede, studded flats. I think the studs make them seem less like a classic basic and more of a trend…except AGL is never going to be truly trendy.

   1. I think these would get a lot of use by someone whose whole wardrobe was denim, black and gray.

      1. And who doesn’t live anywhere where it ever rains.

         1. That’s me! I was sitting here in my black and denim thinking these would be perfect with the outfit I’m wearing right now.

      2. Or who works for a strawberry wholesaler.

         1. i almost spit my water out * snaps for you*

   2. I saw these yesterday and was seriously tempted to buy these shoes (and my wardrobe is mostly denim, black and gray!), but in the end I got a little hung up on the grommets.

      1. What do you all think of these flats? Too frumpy? I’d wear with pants only, I think.

         https://www.dsw.com/en/us/product/g.h.-bass-and-co.-kelsey-flat/403949?activeColor=650

         1. I like them. But I think you need something with a heel if you are only wearing pants.

            1. You mean, like not wearing a top? I think the least of your concerns is whether your shoe has a heel… but what do I know?

            2. duh, have you ever seen a str1pper in flats?

            3. Disagree re: needing heel with pants. Jjust need pant hemmed to the right length for heel or no-heel.

            4. Some statement necklaces are in order if not wearing a top – they may fill in. That’s what MacGyver would do, I’d like to think. Or refashion heels into a top-substitute.

         2. I look dumpy in Flat’s, b/c I am not as tall as my sister, Rosa, and have a tuchus, which is more then she has. If you are tall, you will NOT look dumpy in flat’s. As for the OP that says strippers do not wear flats, Ed saw a show, and he said that he could not tell what kind of heels she had on. Dad says he was focussed on other part’s of her b’ody. FOOEY!

2. I have been in my job for 3 years. It is almost an exact replica of the role I had in my previous job. So, I have been doing essentially the same thing for 10 years. I like the company and the people, but don’t love it. It is very comfortable, but not at all challenging. There is little to no opportunity for advancement. Out of the blue, a friend connected me with a start up looking for their first lawyer. So, a big step up, lots of challenge. I have decided to take the leap! I am planning to give notice tomorrow and could use any tips/good vibes for that conversation. My boss will be surprised, because people rarely leave my company for other employers.

   1. Ooh, sending good vibes! I’ve found that employers were pretty understanding of “this opportunity for growth is exciting” kinds of departures. A partner once told me the whole “you’ll regret the things you don’t do more than the things you do” bit when I told her I was leaving for [pursuit of big dream]. Good luck!

      1. Agree with this! I just did the same thing career-wise. My boss and company are sad to see me go, but they’re all supportive of new opportunities. Framing the conversation as a new opportunity that you couldn’t pass up is hard to argue with or be upset about. Good luck in your new adventure.

3. NYC ‘rettes – a group of friends is seeing Anastasia on Broadway tonight at 7:30, and our lawyer friend can’t make it last minute.

   I put the single ticket up on stubhub/craigslist, but not sure if it will move. Pretty hard to sell a single ticket. Any other tips on where I could move a single ticket? We got great 2-for-1 pricing ($62/ticket in the orchestra) so hoping to recoup that, if at all possible.

   1. Fellow NYC ‘rette and just chiming in to say that I saw the show recently and loved it!! So definitely take OP up on the offer if you have the time/$.

      1. Oh yay, glad to hear you liked it! We’re all super excited – fans of the movie but hadn’t read many reviews before buying the tickets. :)

         We’re nice 29-35ish working moms if anyone here is interested personally. Open to other suggestions too. Selling on the street isn’t really for me.

         1. I’m surprised your friend who cancelled isn’t paying, particularly given the late notice? I usually try to reimburse friends when they buy the ticket, and understand it’s my responsibility if I have to cancel, for whatever reason. In college I remember a group of us had tickets to some show and I had to go to a make-up class, so forfeited my ticket. I think another girl got to go in the end but I didn’t ask her to pay (though would have welcomed it if she offered!). Do other ‘rettes have thoughts on the etiquette of this situation?

4. Shopping help please:

   What are your favorite a-line skirts for around $50, must be machine washable? I like the look of the betabrand work-it skort but don’t really like 1) that it’s a skort, or 2) the fabric it’s made out of, which feels cheap to me. It’s also slightly more than I want to spend. Anyone know of a similar skirt that’s actually a skirt and that’s made out of better quality material? I’m looking to pick up probably black, navy, and grey.

5. (Oops, posted earlier but I think I’m in moderation for naming us.)

   NYC ladies – a group of friends is seeing Anastasia on Broadway tonight at 7:30, and our lawyer friend can’t make it last minute.

   I put the single ticket up on stubhub/craigslist, but not sure if it will move. Pretty hard to sell a single ticket. Any other tips on where I could move a single ticket? We got great 2-for-1 pricing ($62/ticket in the orchestra) so hoping to recoup that, if at all possible.

   1. Hope you found a taker. I would have loved to join you if the space-time continuum permitted.

6. How do you store ponte dresses? I am incredibly paranoid of putting anything knit on a hanger. Am I right in this case?

   1. I just use those slimline velvet hangers that don’t leave shoulder imprint marks. I own dozens of ponte dresses and have never had a problem with using those.

7. Planning a vacation for Lisbon (4 days) and Morocco (10 days) this fall. Would love any suggestions from those who have been to either destination!

   1. Do you know which cities in Morocco you want to go to?

      1. I’m looking at Marrakech, Fez, Tangiers, Essaouira, and/or Chefchaouen, but I haven’t made any final decisions on itinerary. I’m also interested in a desert tour, although I’m not sure I’ll have time. Would love any suggestions if you have them!

         1. You could do something like:
            – fly to Marrakech – desert-trip from there. (Marrakech is great but I don’t think it was my favorite of the imperial cities that I went to.)
            – train or hired car to Fez/Meknes/Volubilis. (All three are really worth seeing! You can do Fez as a day trip from Meknes probably, or vice versa.)
            – hired car to Chefchaouen. (Explore the town! Hike to the waterfall!)
            – hired car to Tangiers. (I had heard negative things about Tangiers and only stayed one night, basically just to catch a flight out, but I really liked it and wished I had at least a full day!)
            – fly from Tangier to Lisbon.

            That’s probably too many things, hmm. Maybe skip Chaouen? Or skip Marrakech if you can fly into Fez? Though that seems a shame!

            Whatever route you end up taking, I highly highly recommend that you stay in the medina, in a riad, the whole time. In Fez we stayed at Riad Laaroussa and it was awesome! We stayed at Riad Maison da Cote in Meknes and it was lovely as well.

            We tended to book taxis/tours/whatever through the riad. Sometimes it was just like, the front desk guy’s brother in law driving us to Volubilis in his car, but whatever, it was fun!

            Have room in your luggage in case you fall in love with a rug. Or two. Ask me how I know.

         2. oops, long response in moderation!

            1. just chiming in to say this trip sounds like a dream and i’m noting your recs for future reference!

         3. We were in Marrakech a handful of years ago and have many special memories. One piece of advice that worked for us, go high end for housing – and save money in other areas.

            As for Lisbon, personally I didn’t like Fado music – so don’t think it is a “must do”.

         4. We were in Morocco for 6 days this summer. We flew into Tangiers, immediately got a hired car from the airport to drive us to Chefchaouen. It cost 700 dirhan, which was a set amount, so no negotiation. The drive took a couple hours. We considered taking the bus, but we would have had to get a taxi into Tangiers (the airport is outside of it) and then there wasn’t a bus for another 4 hours or so, so we decided it was worth it.

            We were in Chaouen for about 24 hours. That was the right amount of time if you’re not going hiking and just want to wander around the town– there’s not a ton to see/do there, but it’s so pretty and picturesque. It may have been my favorite stop in Morocco, despite the brevity. It also was slower than Fes or Marrakesh.

            We then took the bus to Fes, which took about 4 hours, if I remember correctly. In Fes, our riad hired us a tour guide for 250 dirhan for a half-day tour of the medina. The medina is an absolute maze, so having someone to show us around was fun. He took us into shops, where I’m sure he got a kickback, but at each shop the owners/employees tried to teach us something (ie, we visited a leather shop next to the tannery, so they took us up to the rooftop to look over the tannery, told us about the history of the tannery, pointed out all the different parts, at the spice/oils shop they showed us how they extract argan oil, etc). Pressure to buy was pretty low. My husband thought this tour was kinda a waste of time, but I really enjoyed learning about the medina. While in Fes, we also really enjoyed the Jnan Sbil gardens. Also highly recommend the Ruined Garden for dinner– it’s “Modern Moroccan” and was a welcome change of pace– we ate a lot of couscous and tagine dinners while in Morocco, which were all delicious but became lots of the same.

            We then took the train to Marrakesh, which took 6-8ish hours and cost 300 dirhan each. Turns out there is now an airline that does that trip for about the same price as the train, which we wish we had known. In Marrakesh, we most enjoyed Le Jardin Secret and Le Jardin Majorelle. Jema’a al-Fna was overwhelming (this coming from a New Yorker!) so we did not spend much time there.

            I wish we had had time to do a desert trip, that’s my one regret.

            You don’t neeeeeed Arabic or French in any of these cities (lots of people in Chaouen also speak Spanish), as many people have *some* English, but if you have either of those languages it would be very helpful– my husband has both.

            We stayed at Riad Zaitouna in Chaouen, Riad Mazar in Fes and Riad Tizwa in Marrakesh. highly recommend all of them.

            Feel free to contact me at meg march corpor*tt* at the gmail (one word, replace * with e) if you have any questions

   2. In case you don’t get replies today, I would search the comments on previous posts for one on “Open Doors Morocco”. Someone highly recommended them and detailed the experience. It’s now on my list of dream trips.

      1. That was me! It was the best thing ever. Let me know if you have any questions.

   3. Had a wonderful dinner in the outside garden at Clube de Jornalistas in Lisbon. If you are looking to buy some ceramics while you are there, Sant’ Anna is a great spot!

      1. Clube de Journalistas is so wonderful, albeit a bit off the beaten track.

   4. Smitten Kitchen and Of a Kind have both gone to portugal and done posts about their time there. I would stalk them because they have good ideas.

      I went to Porto but if I was doing Lisbon I would do the Culinary Backstreets food tour. Every city I have done with that company has been amazing.

      Another thought about Morocco – I did a food tour there too and it was sooo good. It was scheduled by Open Doors Morocco in Marrakesh.

   5. I just had five days in Lisbon in May/June this year and got tons of good recommendations from the ladies here, so maybe try a search.

      We stayed in the Praca Comercio at the Pousada de Lisboa – it was wonderful, truly and so well located – http://www.slh.com/hotels/pousada-de-lisboa/?l

      There were great bars on the square just outside the hotel that were open late and great for people watching – a carafe of champagne sangria at Can the Can was our favourite.

      We bought a three day trolley and bus pass from the tour company in the square and it was really worth it – we did the trolley tour up to the monastery and then walked down, toured the docks/site where the Expo village was built and went out to Belem.

      Belem is the most famous bakery for custard tarts BUT my absolute favourites were from Manteigaria in Barrio Alto – https://www.facebook.com/manteigariacamoes/

      Finally, go to Cervejaria Ramiro for seafood. You will have to wait no matter when you go, but you can have drinks and a plate of Iberian ham while you wait and the atmosphere and food is amazing and a really good deal. Have the garlic prawns and do not skip the steak sandwich for dessert. I know it sounds so weird but it is fabulous. http://www.cervejariaramiro.pt/?lang=en

      I loved Lisbon. Loved it. Have a great time!

8. What’s a good gift for becoming a US citizen? A relative is having a swearing in ceremony soon, and I can’t be there but want to send something.

   1. A passport cover

      1. I actually wouldn’t do a passport cover because a) your relative still has to apply for a passport and may not and b) they may want to display their new blue passport (or not, but that’d be my concern).

   2. If you contact your congressperson you can get a flag that has been flown over the US Capitol. I think it comes with a little certificate, and you could put the whole thing in a shadowbox for them. It does take some time, but I think it is a really lovely gift. And maybe a cheapie one to fly at their home.

   3. Don’t forget the pocket constitution!

      And a voter registration form.

      1. I think they give those out at ceremonies. At least, my friend got both of them for free at her swearing-in ceremony.

   4. National parks calendar with election dates highlighted

      1. Yes, this!

   5. I got a really nice Amish quilt for mine. Very American and very special.

9. I have a quandary/ maybe ethical issue. Recently, a friend/coworker revealed to me (and a few others) over beers that she is divorcing her husband because she found out that he was m**esting their children, and taking creepy up-skirt type photos of women in public (she found pictures). She said that within a week/2 weeks she got a restraining order against him, and now has a lawyer and is seeing a therapist etc. So, awful for her and her kids. But, her former husband is active in an online group that my SO is part of, and has occasionally come to physical meet ups, both at bars and at members homes. Sometimes my SO hosts these events, and I would not want to be in the same house as this person anymore.

   Do I tell my SO about what the former husband has done? This isn’t just an, do you tell you SO everything issue I think because my SO independently knows this person. I’m not hesitant to tell my SO out of some idea of don’t rock group dynamics, because the former husband should at the very least be shunned, but out of respect for my friends (and her kid’s privacy) and letting my SO know could lead to many people in the group knowing, and because this is an ongoing legal matter.

   I’m not too worried about the former husband showing up to many events in the future because he only came to a couple before (I’ve seen him a handful of times) but I don’t want to raise the issue with my SO in the moment if he decides to show up to a future event. This person has a good reputation in the group for being a good mod and generally helpful (he’s a (I hope soon to be former) lawyer and helped some people out with legal issues). If this was something I saw in the newspaper I wouldn’t have an issue telling my SO and other group members but since I heard this from my friend, and it’s early days of what could be a long legal issue I don’t necessarily preemptively tell a whole bunch of people my friend has never met about her and her kids issues.

   Other relevant details: We’re in a medium sized town where you don’t know everybody but if you’re involved in a particular interest group you probably know or know of everyone in that group because of size, my SO and I have been together 2 years, not married but heading in that direction, and I go to group events and like most people I’ve met there but I go because of my SO.

   1. I for sure would tell my husband, but make it clear he should not share with the group at large at this stage.

   2. Why isn’t he in jail?

   3. I think you tell your SO, and you and your SO have a hard-line statement you come back to when discussing with anyone else: “he has done some unforgivable things and we won’t be in the same place as him” – something like that that conveys the seriousness without possibly hurting the victims more.

   4. Is there not a criminal case pending against this person?

      Yes, you absolutely tell your SO, say this pedophile is not allowed in your home, and I suspect your SO will on his own accord decide not to be around him any more.

      1. I think so, my friend only found the pictures ~2 weeks ago so this is early days. This person didn’t often come to in person events, was just active on the online part.

   5. I would err on general/vague statements. So sad to say but escalation from taking pictures up women’s skirts to child m**estation is a big deal. Also sad to say that your friend could be making up the latter charge to expedite a divorce. It happens. Do not circulate these unproven accusations (maybe ok to the photos) and otherwise try to support your friend.

      1. IDK if “all” he did was take s*xaul photos of unconsenting women, he is a POS who doesn’t deserve any particular benefit of the doubt from me. And I think we should believe survivors.

      2. I agree with Rainbow Hair that he is a scumbag based solely on the upskirt photos, and that we should believe survivors. And I want to add in this specific case there is very little room for doubt. Yes, a *very small* number of people do make false allegations of this type, but the OP knows her friend and can surely judge whether she is the type to do that, AND, it is not always hard for a woman to get a restraining order for herself, but judges are extremely hesitant, especially in divorce cases, to grant restraining orders to keep parents away from their children – even in cases of heroin addicts using in front of their kids, etc. So given that, I’d say it is clear that the situation has been externally vetted.

      3. The friend found photos for everything, and as far as I am aware divorce wasn’t a thought until 2 weeks ago.

   6. I would first ask your friend how much she is comfortable with you sharing – both with your SO and with the broader community, and definitely don’t share any more than that. She may not want you to give any details, which means you have to say something vague to your SO. Tell him that the issue is absolutely multiple, serious, criminal, 100% shunning-justified transgressions, but for privacy reasons you can’t share details, and he’s going to have to trust you on this. Ask him to ensure that this person will never come to your house, and that you and your SO agree to shun him if he comes to other events. Rainbow Hair’s suggested wording of “he has done some unforgivable things and we won’t be in the same place as him” is perfect.

      If your friend is okay with you sharing more, that will make it easier, since you can give your SO specific examples.

   7. I’d absolutely tell my SO and ask him to keep the knowledge in confidence.

10. +1

11. I’m heading to San Clemente CA for a wedding this weekend & will have some free time on Saturday. Any suggestions for places to brunch/coffee/shop/hang out?

    1. I don’t know San Clemente very well, but I’m pretty familiar with the rest of coastal OC. Will you have a car? If so, drive up PCH a little bit to Laguna Beach to explore the cute little downtown area (lots of yummy brunch places, art galleries/shops, and beach access). Nick’s or Zinc Cafe are two of my favorite brunch/breakfast spots. If you want a great view but aren’t picky about having great food, try Las Brisas.

       If you want to splurge a little bit, the Ritz Carlton Laguna Niguel is just up the road from San Clemente and is one of my favorite hotels. They have an awesome bar/lounge area with a great ocean view for an afternoon lunch, or you can swing by for brunch and then head up to Laguna.

       1. Thank you so much! We will have a car – most appreciate the recommendations.

12. Has anyone ever applied for a job and received a screening call or pre-interview questionnaire that seems like it asks too much at the early interview stages? A few weeks ago, I had a screening call ask about salary requirements and the names of my clients (I’m a lawyer and this is a big no no). Last week I received a lengthy questionnaire that included asking for references, before the interview.

    Am I nuts to think these questions are coming in the wrong order? Or have I just been out of the job search game for so long that “normal” has changed?

    1. Normal has changed. Hiring is more dynamic in a lot of places & you can run a lot of lines at the same time. Things don’t mean what they used to either – ie. an ask for a reference used to be “got the job/final point” & now that’s just in case you’re a finalist. I’m also not sure what’s so wrong with asking for your clients to get a conflicts check started.

       1. Uh – why would you do a conflicts check before even doing an in-person interview? That seems like a lot of unnecessary work for the firm.

          OP – As someone who interviewed and started a new job 2 years ago. Yes, this does feel out of order for me (though I don’t work at a law firm). Asking for references upfront seems odd, but I think it happens. Asking for salary requirements is an attempt to make sure you and the job are in the same ballpark, but it’s gross if the the job is asking you to name the number first, vs offering a salary range to make the determination. The questionnaire thing is kind of weird.

          Ask A Manager blog is another good resources for these sorts of questions.

          1. I could see a major conflict being a dealbreaker so why bother to interivew; or get the information so you can start as soon as possible on the check if you like the person rather than wait for them to gather the info & lose time. I doubt the company is using all this info before even meeting OP, but it’s not unusual to gather it so you can move faster.

    2. Salary is normal. I work in a niche field and sometimes companies want to hire people that they can’t afford – for multiple jobs I’ve been above the max on the salary cap for their positions.

    3. Salary = very normal.
       Collecting references early, but not contacting them until a final stage = also common (though silly)
       I have seen a pretty substantial questionnaire for in-house roles when the search is being conducted by a specific large & well-known legal recruiter.
       Client names does strike me as unusual…. is there some particular conflict they might be worried about? E.g., is it for P epsi and your firm represents C oke?

       1. This makes me feel a bit better. Both were in-house positions. I am at a firm now, so I don’t have great insight into what is “normal” in the in-house world.

13. I just got a new manager and so far working with her has been a nightmare. She was brought in to clean house and to crack the whip. Many people have been driven out already. Its been very stressful. It is just the icing on the cake. I was already looking for a new role before she came but now I am kicking it into high gear. Any helpful job search tips you can share with me to secure something quickly? Also any tips to help me cope. Thank you.

    1. I had to do this once and found the following strategy most successful – contact everyone you know who is at anyplace where you’d be open to employment (so, reach out to fellow alums, former colleagues, members or the same organizations, other industry people, etc.) and tell them you are “looking for career advice” and would like to “meet for coffee or lunch” someplace convenient to them. Start scheduling coffee/lunch meetings with everyone, preferably 2 a day, and don’t leave any meeting without getting the other person to suggest someone else you can meet and then reach out to those people. I met 2 people a day for about 3 weeks straight and was first in line to hear about openings that weren’t even posted, one of which led to a job. Also, don’t look for the “perfect” position – any place is better for your mental health and you can always leave the next job after a year or two if it isn’t your dream role. Be willing to take a pay cut for an opportunity where you could get your foot in the door and work your way up. Be willing to try a different but related role – you might be surprised. Good luck!

       1. Thanks SO much Kelsey! I am such an introvert and that is hard for me to do but I know that like you said I have to cater to my mental health and so I am willing to try this! Thanks again!

    2. I am in a similar situation. What I did: first, figure out what you WANT / LOVE to do. For me, it meant a return to what I was doing a few years ago. It might be “exactly what i’m doing now, just not for a crazy person.” Then figure out your peripheral non negotiables. For me it was commute and expected working hours… based on young kids and spouse with odd hours already. Then start looking. I picked a few websites that publish jobs in my field including a few local companies that interested me. Tailor resume and cover letter to each.
       During the day, strive for not being noticed. Head down, do your job and do it well. Pick one or two trusted colleagues to vent with, but not everyone. I specifically “picked” someone in another dept that would be most likely to make an offer that would keep me, if that makes sense. Do not cope via drinking at night. Take care of yourself.
       PP is absolutely right, make good use of your network. Use linkedin to see (in private mode) anything you can about companies, hiring contacts, etc. turn on the “available to recruiters” thing.
       Remember that new manager is crazy, not you.
       Is NM targeting people one by one or just generally toxic? If targeting, keep your trusted folks below the radar. They should also see the sense in this. Don’t obviously align yourself with anyone. I frequently make comparisons to Survivor or The Amazing Race (in my head) to keep from taking things too much to heart.
       Good luck! It really stinks but you have the right idea in being proactive!

       1. Thanks for the tips! These are definitely great ideas. NM is generally toxic including cutting me off in meetings and being generally aggressive and dismissive. Definitely time for me to get out! Best of luck to you too!

14. If this is the Grommet flat, what does the Wallace flat look like?

    1. It’s made of Wensleydale.

    2. Shouldn’t we be worried about whether they’ll be worn with the wrong trousers?

       1. These comments just keep getting better and better.

       2. No, I think these are for a grand day out.

15. I just wanted to thank all of the commenters who replied to my post yesterday about our unborn daughter’s hearing loss. Your thoughtful and empathetic responses were so appreciated by this overwhelmed new mom. I am so grateful for the incredible community of women here.

    1. I did not have a chance to respond to you yesterday, but I want to tell you that your concern and love for your baby will ensure that your daughter will grow up with every opportunity and will do amazing things. My daughters’ best friend has hearing aids in both ears and there’s nothing she cannot do as well or better than the other kids in her class. Also, here in Seattle, there’s an attorney/Lt. Governor named Cyrus Habib who is not deaf but is blind, but he is a testament to his mother’s love and advocacy on his behalf. Your daughter is similarly fortunate to have you as her mom!

       1. …and now I’m crying. Thank you for your kind words and your inspirational real-life examples.

    2. I was going to comment yesterday- I have almost no experience with the Deaf community, save for that there was a Deaf boy in my class in 1st, 3rd and 4th grade and we learned some ASL in 3rd grade (which was great), but I did want to mention the story Welcome to Holland, as well as Cheryl Strayed’s “Ghost Ships” story. You’re gonna be great.

       1. Sloan. as the parent of a child with special needs, both of those pieces have been a huge help to me and I refer to them often. The ghost ship one was something that I found out about here, perhaps from you.

    3. I didn’t see this yesterday, but your love and concern for your daughter is enough. I am HOH and a lawyer — and a proud member of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association — and my mom’s support was what gave me the grit to move forward in my career. I encourage you to find your local Deaf community and meet other hearing-parents.

16. Kat and Kate –

    FYI: using Chrome and seeing several auto-play video ads that follow my scrolling and are causing my browser to go on the fritz.

    That being said, these are dark times and seeing a baby elephant play with a ball (not sure what that was an ad for…) brightened my heart a little. :)

17. Looks like I got stuck in m 0d…

    Kat and Kate: there are several auto-play video ad s that are causing chr0me to go on the fritz for me.

18. How do you cope with people excluding you a la mean girls from group work lunches and outings, despite your attempts to join their group?

    1. Go to lunch with people that don’t suck instead!

       1. Enjoy from a distance watching the group self-destruct.

    2. I’m super late but I do a thing where I play like bingo, I guess? Like “ooh which crappy thing are they going to do next?” almost like a game? It lets me laugh at the bad things, instead of feeling hurt by them.

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